Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8339

1 Monday, 16 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

15 This is a protected witness, a pseudonym and image distortion that's why I

16 have to use DD003979, and that's the document that will be used for

17 identification purposes.

18 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Is this your name and surname?

20 A. Yes, my name and surname.

21 Q. Pause there, please. That's the only thing we need at present.

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the document be admitted as a

24 Defence exhibit under seal, please.


Page 8340

1 THE REGISTRAR: As D315 under seal, Your Honours.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Your Honours, can we now move into private

3 session in order to get the personal background details from the witness.


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Page 8341











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Page 8347

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].

22 Q. Since you're a born and bred Sarajevan and you live in Breka; is

23 that true?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. First I would like to save the map in this form as an exhibit,

Page 8348

1 Your Honours, please.


3 THE REGISTRAR: As D316, Your Honours.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. And you explained how you became a member of the Sarajevo-Romanija

6 Corps. Now, if you can tell the Judges, first of all what sort of weapons

7 did you use in trenches, you and the people who were in your platoon and

8 your company?

9 A. The company was issued mainly semi-automatic weapons. There were

10 some pieces of automatic weapons, old machine-guns, M-53, and that was

11 that of the infantry weapons that we had.

12 Q. And in the area of the Ilijas Brigade at the time, later it was

13 the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade, other than the weapons that you had at your

14 positions, were there any other more serious heavier weapons there? Do

15 you know?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I know.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour. Just with respect to

20 foundation, I haven't heard or seen any testimony so far that would enable

21 the witness to comment on anything that to had do with the Ilijas Brigade.

22 Perhaps that was an error, but I'd just ask for some clarification.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Maybe you missed it.

24 Witness, what is the basis for your knowledge about the

25 Ilijas Brigade? How do you know about the Ilijas Brigade?

Page 8349

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I just made a slip. I

2 wanted to say the Vogosca and 3rd Sarajevo, and I mentioned the

3 Ilijas Brigade instead. So it's my mistake. It was a slip of the tongue.

4 There are many such names, and sometimes a person can easily make

5 a mistake. I made the mistake. Actually, I was asking him about the

6 Vogosca Brigade in the area of responsibility of the Vogosca or the 3rd

7 Sarajevo Brigade. That's what he was talking about.

8 Q. Can you please answer now?

9 A. Yes, yes, of course I know. We had mortars, 60s, 82, and 120

10 millimetres. 122-millimetre howitzer, two of them. We had one tank. And

11 I think that there was perhaps another howitzer.

12 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us anything about what happened to the

13 heavy weapons in 1994?

14 A. In early 1994, it was February, after Markale, when the order came

15 for all heavy weapons to be placed under the control of UNPROFOR or to be

16 pulled back 20 kilometres from the line of separation. A part of the

17 weapons stayed under the control of UNPROFOR at its positions, but a part

18 also we pulled back towards the Nisici plateau.

19 Q. And the Nicisi plateau is outside of the 20-kilometre exclusion

20 zone?

21 A. Yes, the Nisici plateau is outside the 20-kilometres exclusion

22 zone, and the Sarajevo 3rd had its area of responsibility in that part of

23 the front.

24 Q. And when did these positions then become a part of the area of

25 responsibility of the Sarajevo 3rd Brigade?

Page 8350

1 A. You're talking about the line of separation on the Nisici plateau?

2 Is that what you're talking about?

3 Q. Yes. No, I'm actually thinking in general was the Vogosca Brigade

4 renamed? Did it stay the Vogosca Brigade? I would like to clarify that

5 for the Judges. Or did the Vogosca have its own positions and the

6 Sarajevo 3rd did it have its positions?

7 A. No. Out of the three brigades, the Vogosca, Rajlovac, and Kosevo,

8 the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade was formed in early 1994. The Semovac battalion

9 was attached to these brigades which always had its own positions towards

10 Breza, let's say.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you explain to Judges if in 1994 you noticed

12 anything changed in the behaviour or the tactics of the army of Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina.

14 A. After the pull-out of heavy weaponry in 1994, Zuc was quiet.

15 However, the Federation army was pulling its units out of the city, and a

16 second front was opened which was what -- much more intense, and that's

17 here from Ilijas towards the Nisici plateau.

18 Q. And can you tell the Judges, please, when Dragomir Milosevic

19 assumed the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

20 A. In August 1994, when I went on my work duty.

21 Q. Can you please tell the Judges what was happening in the areas

22 where there were combat actions, and where were these areas?

23 A. In 1994, in -- towards the end and at the beginning, the combat

24 actions were mainly carried out from the direction of the Nisici plateau

25 towards Srednja and somewhat closer to Semizovac. I cannot recall the

Page 8351

1 name of that elevation.

2 Q. And this fighting, were there any consequences for the civilians

3 and the soldiers because of the fighting? Of course there were

4 consequences as far as the soldiers were concerned, but what about the

5 civilians?

6 A. Of course there were civilian casualties also. I think that up

7 until 1994 no shell dropped at Vogosca except in late 1992 when some 10

8 days Zvaka was constantly shelled. From 1994 they also began to shell

9 Vogosca. Of course Ilijas is a story in itself, and probably someone else

10 who is better informed will deal with that.

11 Q. And can you please explain to the Judges if there are any problems

12 in terms of roads?

13 A. From 1992 until late 1993 and early 1994, Ilijas, Ilidza, Vogosca

14 did not have a safe road connecting it to the rest of Republika Srpska.

15 And the newly built road which went through Poljine and Mrkovici was

16 constantly under fire, constantly under fire.

17 Q. Thank you.

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Page 8352

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6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'll ask the court deputy to attend to

7 that.

8 Should we go now to private session, Mr. Tapuskovic, if you want

9 to proceed along those lines?

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just am waiting

11 for him to mark where his house was. And perhaps he can confirm in

12 private session if that is that area of Sarajevo where he lived.

13 Everything else, I think, is not necessary to be covered in private

14 session.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. A direction has been given not to broadcast

16 the image, so the witness may go ahead and do the marking.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Can you please indicate here where the Breka neighbourhood is?

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Page 8353

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2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please be careful and not mention any names,

3 geographical names, either by you or by the witness.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I cannot question the witness

5 if -- if we don't mention the names. Are we still in private session?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, we're not. We should be in private, then, if

7 you're going to mention these names.

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Page 8355

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, tell us this, please, since we're talking about the end

10 of 1994, you said that you were under a work obligation or a work detail.

11 Can you explain to the Judges what this means, what it entails?

12 A. The work obligation or the work duty was to -- meant that you were

13 supposed to spend two days on duty in the trenches. I was working in

14 Ilidza at the time, and I was in the area of responsibility of the Ilidza

15 Brigade within the Energoinvest compound at the line, at the front line.

16 Q. You said that these events transpired in the Nisici plateau in

17 November and December. Was Ilidza under any sort of pressure at the time

18 in late 1994?

19 A. Save for isolated incidents at the lines where I was present,

20 there weren't any more significant activities. I can't speak for the

21 other areas where the Ilidza Brigade was deployed.

22 Q. Did there come a time at the end of the 1994 that the situation

23 changed?

24 A. I don't think so.

25 Q. Are you aware of an agreement having been reached in late 1994 or

Page 8356

1 early 1995?

2 A. In early 1995 the situation was quite peaceful. There were no

3 combat activities, as far as I recall, all the way to May or even end of

4 June 1995.

5 Q. And what happened in May or June 1995? If you can describe that

6 for us, please.

7 A. Because of the intensity of the conflict I asked the company to be

8 transferred from my work duty in Ilidza Brigade to the Vogosca Brigade.

9 As of April, I was again assigned at Zuc. Initially I was on work

10 duty or work obligation. Then in mid-June, I believe it was, that a

11 fierce offensive was launched when the forces in town attacked the area in

12 the direction of Zuc and Reljevo -- or, rather, Paljevo, which is a

13 dominant feature and a very significant one in that area.

14 From the Nisici Visoravan, where the plateau and Ravani, an attack

15 was launched in the direction of Motka [phoen] which is another important

16 feature on the other side of Vogosca.

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Page 8357

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Page 8358

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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back if open session.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, in that period of time when you observed that the ABiH

20 forces were much more numerous and had more weapons, were there any

21 victims, both in terms of soldiers and civilians?

22 A. Certainly there were victims, both among soldiers and civilians.

23 I repeat that Vogosca, the centre of town itself was shelled far more than

24 before, as were the positions. At that point in time, I was an operative

25 in the brigade, and I can't tell you exactly when and how many people were

Page 8359

1 killed. I know that during the war, in the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade there

2 were 550 people killed. Soldiers, I mean.

3 Q. Thank you. A moment ago you mentioned your work duty, and you

4 said that you were in the trenches. Since you were an electrical

5 engineering, did your work duty entail anything else in that period of

6 time and at the place where you were assigned to in Ilidza?


8 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, with respect, the witness has never

9 once used the word trenches except at page 18, line 15. So perhaps we

10 could just specify what period of time that we're talking about that he

11 was in the trenches.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What time is this, Witness?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the 1st of August, 1994, I

14 performed my work duty, and every third day I would spend in the trenches

15 in the area of responsibility of the Ilidza Brigade, all the way through

16 to April of 1995 when upon my own request, I was assigned to the area of

17 responsibility of the Vogosca Brigade and was in the trenches until the

18 15th or 16th of June, 1995, when I was again reassigned to the brigade as

19 an operative, and as such I remained there until the end of the war.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness T-9, can you tell me the following: You spoke of Zuc,

22 Hum, Boric, but as a Sarajevan born and bred, and as a person who lived

23 there, were you quite familiar with Sarajevo and all its characteristics,

24 and by that primarily I mean the geographical features.

25 A. Of course I was and am. I still live there. In the area of

Page 8360

1 responsibility of the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade, which went from one end of

2 Miljacka to the other end of the Miljacka, except for the features I

3 already mentioned, there was also the features of Grdonj, and then in the

4 direction of Rajlovac, from Mijatovic Kosa across Sokolac to Hum. All

5 these features fell under the area of responsibility of the 3rd Sarajevo

6 Brigade or were just outside of them. And then on the other side there

7 was Trebevic, Bruz [phoen] which is the plateau at Trebevic under the

8 control of the army of Republika Srpska, through to Colina Kapa, Debelo

9 Brdo, Mojmilo. All these peaks were always under the control of the army

10 of the federation, I believe.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness, T-9. I have no more questions for you.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Edgerton.

13 MS. EDGERTON: I don't have any questions for this witness,

14 Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank

16 you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we need to check.

21 As far as I know, we had discussed that the next witness would be in the

22 courtroom at 4.00 p.m., so we just have to make sure that the witness is

23 already here.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we'll be told very soon.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 8361

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The transcript shows Trial Chamber and the

2 registrar confer. In fact it should show Trial Chamber awaiting the

3 arrival of the witness. That will have to be a very long conference.

4 The witness is being sent for. We will break until 4.00. The

5 witness should be here at that time.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.26 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

14 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

18 A. Good afternoon.

19 Q. You know that I am the attorney for Dragomir Milosevic and that we

20 have met before. I would like you to tell the Judges your first and last

21 name.

22 A. Miro Pejic.

23 Q. You were born on the 2nd of January, 1958?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In the place of Sabinci, municipality of Ilijas, in Sarajevo?

Page 8362

1 A. Location -- the place is called Sabanci in the municipality of

2 Ilijas.

3 Q. And you finished elementary and high school in Ilijas?

4 A. I completed my elementary school in Sabancici, and I completed the

5 high school in the municipality of Ilijas.

6 Q. And you graduated at the Faculty of Political Sciences in Sarajevo

7 in 1982?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you performed your military term of duty in 1983 by serving in

10 the navy.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The conflict in Sarajevo found you at the position of the manager

13 of the company paper and the person in charge of information at the Pretis

14 company; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you please tell the Judges what was happening in the Sarajevo

17 municipalities in late 1991 and early 1992?

18 A. I can say that in late 1991 I would go to Sarajevo on a daily

19 basis after work. I had friends there. We went out. In the centre of

20 town, in the main street, Titova Street, and Vase Miskina Street, we began

21 to notice people in green berets individually, and later in uniforms and

22 wearing green berets with markings of the Patriotic League. Later they

23 would be seen in groups and with weapons. I'm thinking of pistols.

24 Q. Thank you. At the time, the time period that you're talking about

25 now, did anything happen with a manager in the company that you worked at?

Page 8363

1 A. Sometime in February 1992 when these groups were already appearing

2 in the town, the director of the company where I worked, Pretis of

3 Vogosca, Mr. Jovo Bucic lived in the Ciglana neighbourhood in Sarajevo.

4 Members of the Green Berets came to his apartment at night. They took him

5 out of the apartment, took him to a police station in Sarajevo, I don't

6 know exactly which one, and they beat him up. He was seriously wounded or

7 injured. He had serious head injuries. He was almost unrecognisable.

8 The next day he was brought to the factory medical centre, the

9 infirmary, and he was given first aid there. That's where I saw him. And

10 from there he was transferred to the Military Medical Academy in Belgrade

11 by helicopter, and after that I don't know what happened to him.

12 Q. And how long did you continue going to work at the Pretis factory?

13 A. I worked until Friday noon on the 17th of April. Specifically on

14 Friday at noon I left work. It's a little bit unusual, but out of 5.500

15 workers in the factory, after the first barricades in March, only 500 of

16 us remained so that only the most essential maintenance and protection

17 services were still operating while production had come to a standstill.

18 And if I can continue, that day I left work. Already on

19 Saturday -- in the night between Saturday and Sunday, the night of the

20 17th, there was an incident. Members of the Green Berets came into the

21 factory that was producing ammunition, and they took away a certain

22 quantity of the ammunition. There was a conflict with the factory

23 security and that's when the first casualties fell. So that on Sunday

24 night I called my director, Mr. Sead Gradascevic, to report to him and to

25 ask him if we were going to continue to work because I heard about the

Page 8364

1 incident through the media, and I had gone to a village to visit my

2 parents over the weekend; and he told me when I went to visit my parents

3 some 40 kilometres away from Sarajevo that there was a meeting, and until

4 the conditions were created for safe work, production would not continue

5 and that we would be informed about further developments.

6 Q. And did you go back to work at all?

7 A. Never again.

8 Q. And all of this that you told us, this raid on Pretis and what you

9 talked about before to the Chamber, the things that happened in the area

10 where you lived and in your environment, can you tell us something else?

11 A. This caused fear and panic in Vogosca, and it led to the start of

12 the conflict. That's when the defence lines were formed at that time.

13 Within the factory itself, security was created, and that's where the

14 front line remained until the end of the war. Conflicts became more

15 frequent, and the frequency kept increasing, escalation. Also the fears

16 of people grew. They were afraid of being massacred because all of this

17 was something that prompted the memory of people before, such as the

18 events during World War II.

19 Q. After those events, after of that date, where did you go, after

20 this organising of the people occurred?

21 A. I already said that I went to my native village for the weekend

22 where my parents were living. This is on the Nisici plateau, and this is

23 where I remained until the end of the war.

24 Q. And how long was it quiet in that area?

25 A. In the beginning it was quiet, but that summer, June, July, May,

Page 8365

1 it was quiet, and then incidents began in the area. First of all there

2 were some sabotages in the area where I was.

3 Q. Can you please -- can we just deal with one thing first? Can you

4 explain one thing to the Judges first? Did you join the

5 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

6 A. I was just about to say that. In the area where I was, the people

7 self-organised and a kind of detachment was formed comprising able-bodied

8 men of age from the area, and then later that unit transformed into a

9 battalion that was under the command of the Ilijas Brigade, which in turn

10 was part of the SRK.

11 Q. Can you tell us how long the conflict lasted so that I don't have

12 to say that myself? How long did the conflict last? It started in 1992.

13 How long did it last?

14 A. Well, if you're thinking of the Nisici plateau about which I can

15 speak because I spent the bulk of my time up there; although, I know other

16 areas, too, other areas of Sarajevo. As I said, it started in 1992 in the

17 spring. The first casualty in Nisici plateau was an old woman called

18 Mara Jelisic who was killed from an ambush in early August 1992 on her way

19 home from a shop. A young man was killed together with her. I think his

20 name was Goran Glisic. These were the first casualties.

21 Q. Through. What I would like to ask you is this: During the

22 conflict which began then and finished or went on until that time that you

23 determined for us, what did you do as the member of the SRK starting from

24 the days when you just joined the corps and then throughout the conflict?

25 A. I was a soldier, and I was assistant battalion commander for

Page 8366

1 information, morale, and religious affairs in the Nisici battalion, which

2 was part of the Ilijas Brigade.

3 Q. And did the names of the units change by establishment in the

4 course of the conflict, the units where you were?

5 A. Yes. The Nisici Battalion was first of all part of the

6 Ilijas Brigade until late September 1992. Then there was a corps

7 reorganisation, and the battalion was under the command of the 2nd

8 Romanija Motorised Brigade. This was for about a year or so. And then

9 sometime in September 1993 it was again returned under the command of the

10 Ilijas Brigade. And then again in late October, I think --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, if this witness has evidence

12 about the years 1994 and 1995, please bring the witness to that evidence

13 very quickly, because all of this is not very helpful.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This is precisely what I'm trying

15 to do, to get to that period. However, I think that I'm obliged to ask

16 him --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, the Chamber has been considering

20 this matter. The -- you have already brought several witnesses to speak

21 on the pre-indictment period, and we understand that you have been trying

22 to establish that there was a conflict at a very intense level and that in

23 your submission the terror that the indictment charges was an outgrowth of

24 that intensity.

25 But at this stage we're of the view that a lot of this evidence

Page 8367

1 is merely repetitive and not helpful to your case, and you should now be

2 moving, in our view, to address other aspects of the indictment, including

3 the specific incidents that have been charged. If you have evidence in

4 relation to those incidents, then you should be -- you should be bringing

5 this. But this kind of evidence we have heard before. It is really

6 cumulative. So I want you to take that into consideration when you

7 consider the rest of the case, of your case, and how you plan to manage

8 it.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are very close

10 to the end of the Defence case. We only have seven or eight witnesses

11 left. I have already presented the position of the Defence that in

12 relation to individual scheduled incidents we do have our case pertaining

13 to each and every one of them. I've said on a number of occasions that

14 this will form part of an important segment of work of the Defence, in

15 particular, in relation to some documents concerning certain incidents.

16 We are simply not in a position to call witnesses who are

17 eyewitnesses of some of the incidents, who were eyewitnesses at the very

18 scenes of these incidents. However, the Defence will be paying a great

19 deal of attention, and has been all these past months, to the specific

20 incidents scheduled in the indictment and to the issue of how far beyond

21 reasonable doubt they were proven.

22 We will indeed take into consideration your guidance that you gave

23 to us just now, but if we look at the testimony of this witness, a moment

24 ago he managed -- he mentioned sabotage actions. I didn't want to attract

25 a question of -- as to how can the witness know anything about that. I

Page 8368

1 simply wanted to come to the situation involving his membership in the

2 corps and then his knowledge about the sabotage actions.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us proceed, Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, a moment ago you gratuitously mentioned sabotage actions.

6 Can you tell the Trial Chamber what you meant by sabotage actions, in

7 particular, if we have in mind the years of 1992 and 1993.

8 A. Can I only finish by saying that in October 1994 the Nisici

9 Battalion became part of the 1st Romanija Brigade. As far as the sabotage

10 actions are concerned, these were incursions, raids by smaller sabotage

11 groups which set up ambushes on the road sides and attacked passers-by,

12 civilians, there were many people wounded and killed. Very often they

13 made mines and many vehicles came across these mines and got killed that

14 way.

15 This was the situation concerning the Nisici plateau, particularly

16 the section of the road from --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Two places that the witness mentioned and the

18 interpreter didn't catch.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. When you speak of sabotage actions, can you tell us specifically

21 whether there were such sabotage actions in 1994 and in 1995 in

22 particular?

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

24 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, good afternoon. I'm just re-reading

25 the transcript and apparently the witness has mentioned some places which

Page 8369

1 the interpreters could not catch. I'm wondering if that might be asked of

2 the witness.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you mentioned -- you mentioned two

4 places, but the interpreter didn't hear you. Would you repeat that,

5 please?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the first sabotage

7 action, where Mara Jelisic was killed, happened on the road in the

8 direction of Ajdanovici in place called Jelovac. There was a host of

9 other sabotage actions which were mounted from ambushes against columns of

10 vehicles holding civilians. In particular, along the road or the section

11 of the road Semizovac and Srednje [realtime transcript read in

12 error"Srednja"] Nisici.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Yes. My question --

15 A. I said Srednje and not Srednja as it is written here.

16 Q. Before my learned friend, Mr. Sachadeva's intervention, I asked

17 whether such actions continued later on, especially in the months of May,

18 June, and through to November 1995 when the conflict ended.

19 A. These sabotage actions and raids were present throughout the war.

20 I might be able to give you a few examples of such actions, but I will

21 restrict myself to one which took place in late July and early August 1994

22 when a large sabotage group got infiltrated into the village of Drazevici

23 far behind the VRS lines, killing an elderly civilian, Gojko Dzurdzic, and

24 wounding an old lady, Dobrila Dzurdzic.

25 Q. I will show you a document, D154 in fact, and will ask you

Page 8370

1 something in connection with what I've just heard from you concerning this

2 particular action. But let us first look at the document D154.

3 Mr. Pejic, can you please look at the heading and read it out so

4 that you can see what this is all about? Please read it so that you know

5 which event it relates to, and can you -- and also to see what sort of an

6 order is being issued here. Can you read a portion of it?

7 A. I've managed to read parts of it. This is an order from 1995. I

8 wasn't present in the area of Han Pijesak, but I am familiar with this

9 case.

10 At the time in the area of Nisici there were members of the army

11 of Republika Srpska from Han Pijesak. They were supposed to be replaced

12 by another shift of soldiers. They were late several days, and they said

13 that there was a group of enemy soldiers who got infiltrated up there, and

14 a number of civilians from villages around Han Pijesak were killed.

15 Actually, a rather large group of Serb civilians, and you can also glean

16 something about that from here.

17 Q. Look at the order and what it says. What does it say under number

18 1? Read the entire passage, please. Read it out loud, please.

19 A. "Commanders of units through daily assessment of the situation and

20 use of units in carrying out combat operations shall plan in accordance

21 with existing conditions and carry out surprise combat actions in the

22 enemy's immediate rear and deeper behind the lines."

23 Under 2 --

24 Q. No, no. Thank you. Look at the signature, please.

25 A. I can't see the signature. I can only see -- Fikret Prevljak,

Page 8371

1 brigade commander of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Tell me, please, are these the sabotage

3 units you referred to that were taking place?

4 A. Yes, such sabotage actions were quite frequent in the area of the

5 Nisici plateau.

6 Q. Were some assessments made as to what their purpose was,

7 especially in the time period referred to by this document, the 1st of

8 July, 1995?

9 A. The purpose of the actions was to inflict losses --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

11 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I just would like to get a

12 clarification, because the witness has said that he learnt about these

13 actions through -- through soldiers that were late coming from

14 Han Pijesak, and as I understand it Han Pijesak is some distance away from

15 Nisici, and subsequently learned counsel has asked questions about whether

16 this document reflects the sabotage actions that the witness has been

17 speaking about, and the witness reverted to the sabotage actions in Nisici

18 which is not contained in this document.

19 So I'm wondering -- of course I can do this in

20 cross-examination, but perhaps, perhaps the witness is saying that he was

21 indeed in Han Pijesak, and if that's the case, then I think the Court

22 should be aware of that, in my submission.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Were you in Han Pijesak.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When this was mounted I wasn't in

25 Han Pijesak, but I said there were soldiers, members of the 1st

Page 8372

1 Romanija Brigade from Han Pijesak who had come to Nisici. Upon their

2 arrival there they talked of this particular raid and of the large numbers

3 of Serb victims that were the result of this infiltration of a large

4 sabotage group, and then when the counsel asked me whether such similar

5 actions were taking place in that period of time, my answer was yes, that

6 there were such similar actions.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue?


9 Q. When it all started back in 1994, what was the kind of heavy

10 weaponry you came across in the area where you were present in 1994 within

11 the area of responsibility of the units whose part you were, or if you can

12 tell us from your independent knowledge.

13 A. At Nisici there were several mortars of different calibres, 60,

14 80, 120 millimetres. Then there was a ZIS, a field cannon, 76

15 millimetres in calibre. We had three howitzers, and the rest was infantry

16 weapons. And in 1994 after - and I can't recall exactly when it was -

17 when the exclusion zone of 20 kilometres was imposed in Sarajevo, some of

18 the heavy weaponry was pulled out up there because in spring of 1994 the

19 thrust of the fighting was moved to the Nisici plateau. They started on a

20 more intensive note in -- in March and then went on.

21 Q. Can you tell us when did you meet General Milosevic who is the

22 accused in this case.

23 A. It was on the 30th or the 31st of October, 1993, that I met him

24 for the first time when he came to Nisici. He came there in order to

25 organise the evacuation of the Croatian population from Vares. In those

Page 8373

1 days there was a large ABiH offensive against Vares which had been under

2 the control of the Croats. At that point in time Vares was seized by the

3 Muslims and the entire population from the area that was evacuated was

4 received by that particular location, and I mean civilians and former

5 soldiers.

6 Q. When you say that they were received and provided for, what was it

7 exactly that was done?

8 A. Let me tell you. With all the material and technical equipment we

9 had, we received the people. We provided them -- food to them in the

10 village of Vrgore, a large Serb village. We gave them tea, food, and

11 possibly milk to any of the children there. We organised a bus

12 transportation and other sort of conveyance for them. And the

13 circumstances of the war as they were and as far as they permitted,

14 they -- the Croats and others from Vares were received in the area under

15 the responsibility of the SRK, safely passed through our area, and went on

16 to where they wished to go.

17 Q. Do you know when it was that Dragomir Milosevic became the

18 commander of the SRK?

19 A. I don't know the exact date, but I do know that General Milosevic

20 became the commander of the SRK of after a large offensive taking place at

21 the Nisici plateau when the BH army forces captured several Serb villages.

22 This attacked started on the 1st of August. It was a terrible,

23 unimaginable attack from several directions, from the direction of Olovo

24 toward Krivajvo [phoen], from Cemir [phoen] toward Ladjevici. And there

25 was an attack on the village of Kunosici [phoen], and an attack against

Page 8374

1 the largest mountainous Serb village of Mrgule [phoen] which is between

2 the -- in the Romanija area.

3 After that, the BH army forces seized the area as a result of that

4 action. It was several days later that General Milosevic was appointed

5 commander of the SRK.

6 Q. What were the early days of his service as commander like?

7 A. He arrived up there. The combat actions had to be repelled.

8 People were panic-stricken. Large numbers of people had to leave the

9 area. There were victims, there were casualties, there were wounded. The

10 population from the villages belonging to the Vares municipality had to be

11 evacuated, and these villages all stand empty today.

12 He tried to form a new defence line which was in fact located, and

13 I could perhaps show it on this map, from Guca Kamen across

14 Camovine [phoen] all the way to Hadzici. That was the defence line that

15 was set up. The population there was evacuated out of the area.

16 I was charged with following this evacuation through and in

17 finding some resources in Ilijas and Vogosca to provide for the people.

18 He played a great role in that with a view to consolidating the situation

19 in a way.

20 Q. Thank you, and after that was a quieter for a while in that area?

21 A. After the offensive there was a lull in that section of the front,

22 from the 10th of July or the 10th of August, and there was a lull until

23 the 6th of November, and then a strong offensive began, and once again

24 there was a withdrawal of a part of our line. There was breakthrough in

25 our villages of Ravne had to be abandoned, and the line had to be set

Page 8375

1 through -- across the fields on the Nisici plateau.

2 Q. And were there any victims in these actions?

3 A. Of course there were. To tell you the truth, I don't like to

4 remember any of that. I get upset about it. During the war, doing the

5 work that I was doing, I wrote and read about 50 speeches on the funerals

6 of my friends, cousins, neighbours. They included civilians, old people,

7 women. There were victims. There were many wounded. All I want to say

8 is that in these offensives all these villages disappeared. Everything

9 was looted, burned. And if you go there to this day, there are no houses

10 and nobody's living there.

11 Q. Thank you. And then did this quiet down, this thing that began in

12 November?

13 A. In November this went on for some seven to ten days, and then

14 again there was a certain lull. And that winter was much quieter until

15 practically the spring of 1995. Based on what I can remember now, it's

16 been a long time since then, and it's very difficult to recall all the

17 details.

18 Q. Well, perhaps we can hurry up and finish the examination-in-chief.

19 After the truce, what happened then in spring?

20 A. Can you please be a little bit more specific?

21 Q. You said that it was quiet until late spring. What did you want

22 to say by that?

23 A. What I meant was that fighting went down. There was some regular

24 back and forth fire. It was quiet until spring, and then when spring

25 came, and then of course June 1995. This is very characteristic date when

Page 8376

1 a horrendous offensive began along all sectors of the Sarajevo theatre.

2 Units had left.

3 At that time we already had had information which we obtained in

4 various ways. Even soldiers shouted across the lines which were quite

5 close together at some point. So they would shout out, "Be careful.

6 Watch out for the next one," and that an attack was being prepared. So we

7 had information that there was going to be an offensive, but we didn't

8 know exactly where and what the scope of the offensive would be. However,

9 early in the morning on the 15th of June the offensive was launched all

10 along the complete line of defence on the Nisici plateau and in other

11 areas of responsibility of all the brigades of the army of Republika

12 Srpska in Sarajevo.

13 Q. And how long did this last, and were there any casualties?

14 A. There were casualties. I can say that where we were on the Nisici

15 plateau the first day several women were wounded. Some soldiers were

16 killed.

17 Sometime in the afternoon I was sent to Ilijas to tell the

18 families of some people who had been killed and to make funeral

19 arrangements. And on the way from Nisici, I can say that this: It was

20 horrendous. It was indescribable. There was a lot of blasting, artillery

21 fire, a lot of booming and noises of firing. It's very difficult to

22 describe that.

23 Q. Just two more things, please. Were you able to notice anything in

24 terms of the quality and the power of the weapons and the number of the

25 people who took part in this action?

Page 8377

1 A. We knew that units from the B and H army from Sarajevo attacked

2 the Nisici plateau positions in 1994 compared to the first years of the

3 war when we only had local units up there, units from Vares, Breza, and

4 other places, Olovo. Then very strong units came from Sarajevo, and then

5 from the spring of 1994 they were replacing each other in shifts there

6 continuously, and they proved to have more and more powerful weapons as

7 time went on.

8 There was shelling from different types of weapons. There was

9 discriminate and indiscriminate fire at villages and so on and so forth.

10 Q. And if you can just please tell the Judges something about the end

11 of the war. What could you say about the very end of the conflict? Was

12 there such a thing?

13 A. As for the end of the war, after the June offensive there was

14 another offensive at Nisici. The first one stopped after some seven to

15 ten days, and then in the beginning of July there was another horrendous

16 attack sometime on the 4th or the 5th of July. That is when we also had

17 both troop and civilian casualties. After that, things calmed down. The

18 Dayton negotiations began, and then after the signing of the accords the

19 Serb population moved out of the then Serb Sarajevo, as well as from the

20 Nisici plateau. The entire Serb population moved out, and the Nisici

21 plateau was wiped out. Everything was destroyed after we moved out, even

22 the Serb Orthodox Church. Now out of 2.000 citizens or inhabitants who

23 lived there when the Dayton Accords were signed, some 40-odd elderly men

24 and women returned and are living there now.

25 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

Page 8378

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

2 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. My name is Manoj Sachdeva --

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. -- appearing for the Prosecution, and I'm going to ask you a few

7 questions today. Firstly, sir, can I just confirm with you that Nisici is

8 roughly 20 kilometres from the centre of Sarajevo city; in other words,

9 from Skenderija, let's say; is that right?

10 A. No. Nisici is 42 kilometres from Skenderija, but it's still part

11 of Sarajevo.

12 Q. Yes, thank you for that clarification. And in fact, the village

13 of Vares is even further. Isn't at that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now --

16 A. But it borders on that area. We can look at it on the map if you

17 wish.

18 Q. Thank you for that. I just wanted to establish the rough distance

19 from the centre and you've answered that. Thank you.

20 Let me ask you this: Sir -- your position, as I understand within

21 the Ilijas Brigade, was as assistant commander for morale and religious

22 affairs. Is that right?

23 A. Deputy commander of the battalion for morale, information, and

24 religious affairs. I was at Nisici throughout that whole period, but

25 there were some transformations so orders were issued attaching us to this

Page 8379

1 or that brigade.

2 From October or early November 1994 when the 1st Romanija Brigade

3 came to Nisici, I was desk officer for information, morale, and religious

4 affairs at the command of the 1st Romanija Brigade.

5 Q. And when you were desk officer from early November 1994, is it --

6 is it correct that you spent most of your time, let's say in the office,

7 is that right, in that role that you said you've had?

8 A. No. No. I was out in the field practically every day.

9 Q. And when you were out in the field were you involved in combat?

10 Is that what I understand?

11 A. Well, that meant touring the villages, talking with the

12 inhabitants in order to reduce panic and fear, but also it was touring the

13 lines where I would spend the night, sometimes with the soldiers in the

14 trenches, and participate in the defence if there happened to be an attack

15 going on.

16 Q. So all these attacks that you've spoken about today, were you

17 yourself involved in these -- in these combat operations, the specific

18 operations that you've spoken about today? Were you yourself involved?

19 A. This is a difficult question to answer. I did participate in some

20 and did not participate in others, but I was always there, because all of

21 this is some two kilometres away. The villages were there and the lines

22 were around them.

23 If you look at the map and the lines where they were, you will see

24 that it was an area that was in a semicircle.

25 Q. The -- the incident that you described at the Pretis factory on

Page 8380

1 the 17th of April, 1992, do you remember that? And I just want to -- just

2 to make sure that you actually weren't there, were you? You left the

3 factory in the afternoon on that day. Isn't that right?

4 A. Yes. On the 17th of April at noon I left work. This happened on

5 the 19th -- on the night between the 18th and the 19th. I heard -- of

6 April. I heard a lot of information through the media about the means

7 they used in their defence.

8 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to establish whether you were there --

9 A. I wasn't there.

10 Q. Thank you. And similarly, the incident that is described -- or

11 the combat operation described in the document that counsel showed you,

12 you weren't in Han Pijesak, were you?

13 A. I wasn't there then.

14 Q. And isn't it -- isn't it right, sir, that during the -- during the

15 war, during the conflict from, let's say May 1992 through to the end of

16 the conflict, the Pretis factory was and remained in control of the VRS?

17 A. Yes, and it remained there, but the line of defence of the army of

18 Republika Srpska was in the factory, inside the factory, and across the

19 street were the positions of the Muslim army.

20 Q. But it's right, sir, is it not, that during the conflict the army

21 of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have access to the ammunition or the weapons

22 that may have been produced in the factory? Isn't that right, sir?

23 A. The factory manufactured ammunition, and the ammunition was

24 produced for the former Yugoslav People's Army and the police. There

25 were enormous barracks and stockpiles of this ammunition, and the

Page 8381

1 ammunition was used by the army of Republika Srpska, the army of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the Croatian Defence Council.

3 Q. Sir, I appreciate the information you've given the Court, but I

4 just want you to try and answer the question. My question is quite

5 specific. During the conflict, as you've already said, the Pretis factory

6 was under the control of the VRS. And my question to you is -- or I'm

7 suggesting to you that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have access

8 to whatever the Pretis factory was manufacturing or distributing. Isn't

9 that correct?

10 A. During the war, no.

11 Q. Now your brigade commander was Dragan Josipovic, your brigade

12 commander for a certain period of time?

13 A. For a certain amount -- period of time, yes.

14 Q. And was that up to -- well, can you tell the Court, was it up to

15 1994, the middle of 1994?

16 A. I cannot remember specifically, but he was in 1992 and 1993 a

17 commander of the Ilijas Brigade, and then I think he became the commander

18 of the Vogosca or the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade, whatever it was called, but

19 I'm not quite sure about that. I'm sorry.

20 Q. No problem. And I take it that's while you were the assistant

21 commander for -- for the -- for morale and religious affairs within the

22 brigade. During your time in that role, you had regular interactions,

23 regular meetings with, firstly, your battalion commander and also the

24 brigade commander, whoever that may be. Is that right, sir?

25 A. No. The battalion commanders would go to report to the brigade

Page 8382

1 commander. The others would not go so frequently, particularly because

2 the staff of the brigade was some 42 kilometres away, and the activity was

3 quite intense in that area. So Josipovic had the opportunity to go to the

4 Nisici plateau very infrequently.

5 Q. Nevertheless, I take it that -- that through the -- through the

6 means of radio, field telephone, or other communication means there were

7 regular reports from the battalion command up to the brigade command as to

8 combat operations, as to the situation with respect to morale of soldiers,

9 levels of ammunition. That took place, didn't it?

10 A. As for the morale, yes. The situation in the field. Ammunition

11 is something that the logistics deals with. As for morale, the reports

12 would be submitted by the assistant commander for morale to his commander

13 and then this would be included in the joint report. All I wanted to do

14 was to point out that the Nisici Battalion from September 1992 until

15 September 1993 belonged to the 2nd Romanija Brigade, meaning that

16 Josipovic wasn't our commander at that time.

17 Q. Yes, I just wanted to ask you about that. Isn't it right that the

18 2nd Romanija Brigade -- yes, the 2nd Romanija Brigade had as its AOR, its

19 area of responsibility, the south of Sarajevo; in other words from

20 Dobrinja towards Trnovo? Is that right?

21 A. The 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. That's not clear to me. Actually, I don't know about that. I

24 know that that brigade held the lines towards Olovo, Kladanj. In that

25 sector, as well as towards Zepa.

Page 8383

1 As for positions along Kraj, that is something that I don't know.

2 The 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade.

3 Q. Very well. When you told the Court you met the accused

4 Dragomir Milosevic. You remember that? You told the Court you met him,

5 if I recall, on the 31st of October, 1993; is that right?

6 A. No. I met with him on the 30th or the 31st of October.

7 Q. Well, perhaps there must have been a mistake. Okay. The 30th or

8 31st of October. And is that 1993?

9 And I think you said -- sorry, you're nodding your head. We have

10 to record.

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Thank you. I think you said that that was the first time that you

13 met the accused, Dragomir Milosevic. Did you subsequently meet him again?

14 A. You see, at that point in time I met and got to know

15 General Milosevic. We came across each other as well, but I did not have

16 occasion to have direct contacts with him. He was the command of a corps,

17 and I was just an assistant commander of a battalion. In hierarchical

18 terms, that amounts to a great difference.

19 Q. Yes. And when you met him in October 1993 he was, was he not, the

20 chief of staff of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, when you met him that time, let me ask you, did you

23 personally speak with him, or did he address a group of your soldiers, or

24 how was that -- how did that meeting transpire?

25 A. No, I did not personally speak with him. I was on a hilltop near

Page 8384

1 Hadzici - I'm not sure about that - when the general appeared and said

2 that we should do everything in our power to ensure that the people from

3 Vares can cross the area unhindered and that we should do all in our power

4 to provide them with any and all assistance that we were able to.

5 Q. And when you said that you got to know General Milosevic at some

6 point in time, what do you mean by that?

7 A. Just that, that I saw the man, that I got to know who he was and

8 saw his features, his face, and that was the way I got to know him. That

9 was our first physical encounter, in other words.

10 Q. Now, you spoke about the -- the attack on the 15th of June in 1995

11 at Nisici. Do you remember speaking about that, sir? And it's right

12 that -- that --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- that while there may have been a attack, that night the attack

15 was successfully repelled was it not by the SRK forces?

16 A. The attack began early in the morning, not during the night. At

17 several locations the defence lines were broken through but were

18 nevertheless restored at a cost of a great many lives. The fighting

19 continued for some five to seven days. We managed to defend the area,

20 albeit with great losses. Ultimately the lines were restored and were

21 identical to the lines that existed before the 15th.

22 What was quite characteristic about it was that the manpower

23 involved was great, that all the villages up there that were populated

24 were shelled horrendously. Not just the positions but the villages

25 themselves. And it's very difficult for the people who haven't gone

Page 8385

1 through such experience to grasp what it means.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, would you say then that the attack was

3 successfully repelled by the SRK forces?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. Had we not repelled the

5 attack, we would have been forced to abandon our homes already at that

6 point in time.


8 Q. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Were you yourself involved in that --

9 in that -- that combat operation?

10 A. Everyone had their own task to perform. I'm not sure what you

11 mean.

12 Q. Maybe I'll be more precise and I apologise, but I'm simply asking

13 if you yourself were involved in the combat activity by the means of, for

14 example, firing weapons, actual combat involvement. Were you involved in

15 combat?

16 A. No. On that day, no.

17 Q. Thank you, now, you -- in answer to questions by my learned

18 friend, Mr. Tapuskovic, about the weapons that the SRK had in Nisici, you

19 remember being asked questions about that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you also remember that counsel asked you questions about the

22 weapons that the ABiH used at Nisici and the manner in which they were

23 fired? You remember you were asked questions about that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And I take it that even though you weren't as you've already told

Page 8386

1 the Court involved in combat activity all the time, as an assistant

2 commander for the battalion within the Ilijas Brigade, it's fair to say

3 that you had -- you had knowledge of the -- the type and quantity of

4 weapons within that brigade in addition to -- to the weapons used by enemy

5 forces. Is that a fair statement, sir?

6 A. First of all, let me make this correction. We were not part of

7 the Ilijas Brigade at the time. In 1995, we were part of the 1st Romanija

8 Brigade.

9 As far as the weapons are concerned, after the signing of the

10 agreement on the withdrawal of artillery from the central part of

11 Sarajevo, part of the artillery and weapons were pulled out into this

12 particular area. I can't, however, speak of the amounts of weapon because

13 the weaponry continued to belong to their respective units. They were

14 merely dislocated out of this zone which was some 20-odd kilometres from

15 the centre of town.

16 Q. Well, whether you were within the Ilijas Brigade or the

17 1st Romanija Brigade, can I take it that you would have been aware, or you

18 had information as to not necessarily the quantity but the type of weapons

19 that the 1st Romanija Brigade had? Is that right, sir?

20 A. The logistics people who dealt with the procurement of materiel

21 and technical equipment were much more familiar with that. I know that

22 they had mortars, 122-millimetre howitzers, one or two tanks, which

23 belonged to the 1st Romanija Brigade in the area. There were mortars of

24 different calibre. There were ZISs or field cannons.

25 For the rest, the weapons belonged to different brigades, and it

Page 8387

1 was difficult to tell which weapons belonged to which unit.

2 Q. Yes. In fact, I'm not asking you about different brigades. I'm

3 asking you about the 1st Romanija Brigade in the summer of 1995, and it

4 seems from your answer that you -- even though you weren't in logistics,

5 you did have a familiarity with the types of weapons that the Ilijas --

6 sorry, the 1st Romanija Brigade had. Is that a fair statement, sir?

7 A. Partly I knew something about it because I worked in the factory

8 manufacturing ammunition before the war, and I had good knowledge of the

9 calibres of the weapons. Of course I also had occasion to see howitzers,

10 mortars, and these tanks.

11 Q. Yes. And with that knowledge that you have -- that you have

12 gained from your job at the factory and also through your role as

13 assistant battalion commander, in addition to the mortars and howitzers

14 that you've spoken about, you also knew did you not that the 1st Romanija

15 Brigade and indeed the Ilijas Brigade had, what were termed, modified air

16 bombs. That's something you know about or you must have heard about, sir.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Perhaps -- perhaps I can show you a document and maybe you can

19 have a look at the document and reflect on your answer.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could ask for 03193 to be brought up, please.

21 Q. Now, sir, that is document from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

22 command from the 11th of July, 1995. You can see that at the top, can't

23 you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the title as you can see is the issuing of FAB-250 and 105

Page 8388

1 kilogrammes. You see that there, sir?

2 A. I do, but I'm not sure what FAB stands for.

3 Q. I suggest to you sir that the FAB stands for Fugasna Avio Bomba.

4 Is that something you know about? Well, if you --

5 A. No.

6 Q. If you look in this document --

7 A. I know that we didn't have helicopters or planes up there. I

8 really know nothing of the air bombs.

9 Q. Yes. And so if -- if the brigade that you were attached to had no

10 planes, then -- then why would there be a need to issue a request or to

11 issue an order with respect to what were termed Fugasna Avio Bomba?

12 A. I can't give you an answer. I really don't know. I'm sorry.

13 Q. If you look down in the document, sir, it speaks to -- it's an

14 order from -- from the commander, Dragomir Milosevic, who was the

15 commander of the SRK at the time, and he is ordering for various brigades

16 within his corps to transfer various FAB bombs, 250 and 105-kilogramme

17 bombs. And if you look at the brigades that he wants -- he wants the

18 bombs to be sent from, you will notice he talks about the 1st Ilijas

19 Brigade one piece of FAB 250, and the 1st Romanija Brigade, one FAB 250

20 piece. You see that's written there, don't you sir?

21 A. I do. Yes.

22 Q. So, sir, I appreciate what you've said that you don't know about

23 these weapons, however, is it your evidence that you can speak to the

24 weaponry that the ABiH had, in other words the enemy had, and the other

25 weaponry that your brigade had, but you're now telling the Court that you

Page 8389

1 have no idea about these modified air bombs? Just so we understand each

2 other, that's what you're saying, isn't it?

3 A. I really don't know anything about that. I did not have occasion

4 to see these modified air bombs. I only spoke of artillery pieces that I

5 knew of, howitzers, mortars, tanks used by both warring parties, in

6 addition to infantry weapons, of course.

7 Q. You may not have actually seen them, and I understand that, but

8 did you in your meetings with your conversations with fellow soldiers,

9 with your meetings perhaps with the brigade commander, did you ever learn

10 that these weapons existed within your brigade?

11 A. No, I didn't. In the area where I was present, such weapons

12 weren't used. I'm -- don't know.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document

14 into evidence.


16 THE REGISTRAR: As P907, Your Honours.


18 Q. Sir, the -- you were with the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps throughout

19 the war, and I want to ask you whether the -- the modus operandi of the

20 combat activity that continued between the years 1992 to 1994 was echoed

21 or was mirrored in the period 1994 to 1995. Is that a fair statement,

22 sir?

23 A. That's a difficult question to answer. It's very general. What

24 do you mean the modus operandi? There was a war on. Of course the army

25 operated according to a certain system. To tell you the truth, I wasn't

Page 8390

1 aware of many of the orders that were coming in. The people

2 self-organised. One had to defend the area in order to save human lives.

3 The modus operandi --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I think your answer is fair.

5 The question was vague, Mr. Sachdeva.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Witness, you spoke about the -- the fear that was taking place in

8 Vogosca at the beginning of the conflict. Do you remember that? And

9 it's -- it's also right that the non-Serb inhabitants of Vogosca also were

10 fearful of that period, weren't they?

11 A. I wasn't speaking of the fear in Vogosca. Rather, I spoke of the

12 fear in Sarajevo and in Bosnia-Herzegovina in general. I spoke of the

13 fear experienced by all in view of the war and the horrific events.

14 Q. Yes. And that's --

15 A. And this applies to the entire period of the war.

16 Q. And that's why I'm asking you about Vogosca, because it is within

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina and Sarajevo. And it's right is it not that the

18 non-Serb inhabitants at the beginning of the conflict were also scared?

19 You agree with that, don't you?

20 A. I've already said that the entire population was fearful

21 throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina. Any normal individual is afraid of war,

22 fighting, and of getting killed.

23 Q. So I take it that's a yes to my question.

24 A. I take it too.

25 Q. And it's right is it not sir that they were scared because in the

Page 8391

1 beginning of the war practically all the non-Serbs were expelled from

2 Vogosca by the armed Serb military and police? Isn't that right?

3 A. I said in the beginning that I worked until the 17th of April, and

4 in that period there was peace in Vogosca. After that I went to the

5 Nisici plateau, and I can no longer speak of the situation in Vogosca from

6 that point on.

7 Q. Very well, sir. You can no longer speak about the situation in

8 Vogosca where you lived and also which is close to Nisici, but you are

9 quite happy to speak about combat activities that you were yourself not

10 involved in. Again I suggest to you, sir, that the non-Serbs were -- were

11 expelled from Vogosca in the first couple of months of the war.

12 Either you know about that, either you've heard about that, or

13 you disagree. What's your answer to that?

14 A. No. I heard about that, but I cannot speak of that specifically.

15 That's what I meant. Non-Serbs were expelled from Vogosca and Ilijas, but

16 so were many Serbs from Vares, Zenica, Tuzla, and other towns coming out

17 into our area where we received them, and they moved on to the other parts

18 in Republika Srpska. Wherever there was a minority population the

19 scenario was identical. The people withdrew to the areas where their

20 particular ethnic group was in majority.

21 Q. Well, there's a difference from withdrawal and expulsion, and

22 well, you've agreed that they were expelled from Vogosca.

23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, may I have one second to confer.

24 That's the cross-examination, Mr. President.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I disagreed because Serbs were

Page 8392

1 expelled from Kakanj and Zenica. They were withdrawing, but they were

2 expelled. They left the area out of fear of being killed and harmed in

3 any way. That's what I wanted to say.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Any re-examination?

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that is your evidence. We thank you for

7 coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Waespi. Mr. Waespi, the Chamber is in the

11 process of preparing a schedule for the rest of the trial, which will take

12 us to the end of the case, and we have to consider whether to set aside

13 time for a rebuttal. We have just about two weeks, two working weeks and

14 three days left of the trial. Are you in a position to say whether the

15 Prosecution will be filing a motion for rebuttal evidence?

16 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. It's unlikely. The only

17 witness I would see is perhaps Mr. Barry Hogan who might introduce a

18 couple of pictures, but it depends a little bit on the remaining witnesses

19 the Defence will call. So that's the only rebuttal witness, which would

20 be very short in any event that the Prosecution had in mind.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: But what -- I understand that you have not made a

22 firm decision one way or the other. Is that right?

23 MR. WAESPI: Yes. And we will certainly know before we break for

24 the summer.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thank you.

Page 8393

1 So the next witness, Mr. Tapuskovic. The next witness.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have two more

3 witnesses in The Hague. The hearing today was more efficient than was the

4 case so far. I can start my direct examination of the witness, but I'm

5 not sure whether we can do that because the witness was not scheduled for

6 today. I don't know exactly where he is to be found now. I believed, and

7 I was going by the work plan we had earlier, that the witnesses we've

8 already had today would be enough for the day. I have two of them in The

9 Hague. One is ready to start.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me make an inquiry of the court deputy and to

11 the usher.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: The position with the witness is as follows: The

17 witness was scheduled to testify tomorrow. In any event, the information

18 is that the witness is ill and will not be in a position to testify today.

19 That means that we'll have no more witnesses for this afternoon.

20 We are going to adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00, but I'm going to

21 ask the court deputy to let the Victims and Witnesses Unit know that we

22 are at a stage in the trial where it is very likely that witnesses will

23 spend less time in court than was anticipated, and therefore they should

24 have witnesses on -- on standby.

25 Tomorrow is 2.15, not 9.00.

Page 8394

1 Mr. Demurenko, who is to be recalled, will be available for the

2 week of the 20th of August, and we will inform the parties of the

3 particular date on which he will testify.

4 We are adjourned.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.56 p.m.

6 To be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day

7 of July, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.