1 Wednesday, 18 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: This afternoon we're late in starting because the

7 previous trial unavoidably overran its time.

8 Let the witness make the declaration.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS T-41

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

14 And you may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. As this

16 witness has all manner of protective measures, can he be shown this

17 document for his identification?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is me.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Apologies for this short break,

20 Your Honours.

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry for the interruption. Your Honours, we're

23 back in open session.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Now tell us, sir, what was your job like in the period from 1992

1 through to the end of 1995?

2 A. I worked as a photographer and cameraman under very difficult

3 circumstances, quite stressful. I documented these events, and very often

4 I found myself in dangerous situations. I was even injured. These were

5 very, very hard times, and my job was a difficult one to perform. But I

6 did everything I could in order to avoid carrying a rifle. I didn't even

7 wear my uniform unless there was a meeting of sorts.

8 Q. I forgot to thank you. You came here with a fractured leg in

9 order to be helpful to this Tribunal with your testimony.

10 You've just mentioned stressful situations. Before I move on to

11 the photographs you made, can you tell us which of these stressful

12 situations remains stuck in your memory in these past years?

13 A. There were very many such instances. I produced quite a

14 voluminous archives. I have 12.000 photographs that I made. When I spoke

15 to the lawyer for the first time, I was told that they were interested in

16 the period from the month of August of 1994 onwards, and I picked out some

17 of the photographs as far as I was able to. However, the most stressful

18 situation to me was when two little girls were killed at Grbavica. And

19 there was another instance involving two young people, Boro and Admira and

20 they were killed as they were crossing the bridge. I attended their

21 funeral. There were their mothers there.

22 In addition to that I had personal problems, private problems

23 because as a photographer I was assigned to make photographs of some

24 exhumed soldiers and civilians. This was very hard to me. I had to make

25 photographs that would enable individuals to identify them. On one

1 occasion there were 40 bodies of persons exhumed that I had to make

2 photographs of.

3 I did not touch the archives that I had for 10 years. I did not

4 go back and look at them because I found it so difficult to remind myself

5 of these events.

6 Q. Very well. Let me start with the photographs. What did I ask you

7 to do as you just mentioned? Which were the photographs that you were

8 asked to produce and examine? Did you make each and every one of these

9 photographs yourself, and whatever can be seen in these photographs is

10 something that saw with your own eyes; is that right?

11 A. Yes. All these are my photographs.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Well, it's been answered, but my submission was

14 that it's a leading question.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I doubt that, but proceed, Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Let us start from the photographs and look in each and every one

18 of them and each time I will ask you if you made each and every

19 photograph, but let me make this preliminary question to you: Do you know

20 when was it that Dragomir Milosevic, the accused in this case, became

21 commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

22 A. It was in early August of 1994 that I learnt that

23 Dragomir Milosevic had become the commander of the corps or, rather, that

24 he had been appointed. I don't know what the procedure involved was. I

25 only know that this was in that time period.

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the photograph DD004229 be

2 shown. Your Honours, all these photographs are the ones taken from the

3 large batch of photographs that were already shown to some of the

4 witnesses. Since this particular once made these photographs, he will

5 comment on the photographs that I have selected. He will give you his

6 observations, contemporaneous ones. So this first photograph is DD004229.

7 I only provided the Prosecution with some of the photographs in the past

8 days.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, what will be the evidential value

10 of these photographs?

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I cannot tell you

12 that until you see the photographs themselves. They have to do with

13 sniper fire, with hills we referred to, with the positions below the

14 hills. These are photographs featuring civilians, who were wounded or

15 killed, lying on the ground. The photographs speak to all the matters

16 that I raised in these past weeks. The photographs show what the results

17 of the activities of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were during the

18 critical period. These were sites that were exposed to sniper fire.

19 There are matters that you will see for the first time there. For

20 example, Debelo Brdo, a picture of which was taken from a different angle,

21 then the road leading across Zlatiste.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Let us see the first one.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] There seems to be a technical

24 difficulty here. They are in the e-court, but we can't seem to be able to

25 call them up. Perhaps we should use the ELMO. That might make it

1 simpler.

2 Q. Before you look at the photograph, can you tell us were you an

3 eyewitness to the sniper fire or gunfire being opened upon certain sites,

4 and did you document that? Did you film that or make photographs of that?

5 Can you tell us this?

6 A. Yes. I was an eyewitness of that. I was there, and I made these

7 photographs.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Again I don't have the photograph

9 here in front of me.

10 Q. Look at the photograph now, please. You said that you were an

11 eyewitness to sniper fire or gunfire. Can you tell the Judges what these

12 photographs depict?

13 A. These photographs I made in the Dobrinja settlement. The top

14 photograph depicts a man entering a building, whereas on the right-hand

15 side you can see concrete block obstacles that are actually screens from

16 snipers, enabling persons to enter the building.

17 The bottom photograph shows the building which stands opposite the

18 building depicted on the top photograph. You can see bullet-holes made by

19 sniper fire. I don't know whether I should point to these holes.

20 Q. Could you please circle them.

21 A. [Marks]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. We have them in e-court now, Your Honours?

25 A. You see there one beneath the balcony, and down there where the

1 staircase is you simply make an aperture there, a little hole enabling you

2 to open fire. It's very difficult to protect oneself from such fire. You

3 have to use barricades, some sort of optical visibility barriers.

4 Q. And where is this building located?

5 A. I can't see it now.

6 Q. Where is this building situated?

7 A. At Dobrinja, practically on the line of separation. There was

8 only one road dividing two buildings, and in one building there were ABiH

9 soldiers and in the other the VRS soldiers. I believe the name of the

10 street is Indira Gandhi Street. I'm not 100 per cent sure.

11 These apertures that would appear overnight in the stairwells or

12 elsewhere posed a great threat, and one had to move around with great

13 caution. One never knew where the sniper fire might come from.

14 Q. And in what way did the citizens protect themselves from such

15 sniper fire?

16 A. The only way to protect oneself was to erect screens from whatever

17 material was available so that snipers could not see you as you were

18 moving through the area.

19 Q. Did you see snipers as they opened fire?

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you, Mr. Witness, yourself witness any of

21 these shots being made?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that every time I approached

23 that area I was warned, and people said shots were fired from this or that

24 building one or two days ago and one was hit.

25 In another area in Grbavica I was present when a 15-year-old girl

1 was hit in the leg by a sniper from one of those holes.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: The reason I put the question was that I needed to

3 find out just how the Chamber would ascertain that these were sniper fire

4 bullets and not just shots that part of the armed conflict between

5 combatants.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was not trying to

7 suggest snipers or insist on it, or whether it was snipers or something

8 else that was being used, but only that shots were fired through these

9 holes, and that's why the witness took these photographs. That's why

10 screens were erected where these holes were. And you will see a picture

11 of another building Your Honours also visited during the site visit from

12 which shots were fired in a similar way.

13 I tender this photograph as a Defence exhibit, and I will show

14 only one similar picture. I have others.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... It has little

16 evidential value in my view. He took the photographs, so I believe we can

17 admit it, but I don't see how much weight, if any, can be attached to it.

18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, please, on this first

19 photograph did you remember what year you took it, and who is that person

20 that we see? Don't give us the name, just tell us if you know who the

21 person is and why you actually took this picture. What was the purpose of

22 you taking this picture?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This photograph was taken in the

24 winter of 1994. I was sent there. The army invited someone to take

25 photographs of those holes so that one could see that these were small

1 holes which were being used for sniper fire.

2 As for this person, I know that person. He was a kind of courier

3 taking food to the soldiers. I didn't dare approach the building on my

4 own. I needed an escort, and this man took me there and said, "We will

5 stay here very briefly." And I took the photograph hastily. You can see

6 that it was taken from a window. This other man accompanied me, and I

7 took the photographs to the press centre.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, maybe there was a slight imprecision

9 in the interpretation, because if we return to the second picture below,

10 your testimony in the English version says that these were holes --

11 bullet-holes made by sniper fire, but I'm now in doubt as to whether these

12 were really holes through which sniping was made. So is it incoming holes

13 or outgoing holes?

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let the witness

15 explain. It may be what the record says, but that's not what the witness

16 said. So let the witness explain. I don't want to lead in any way. Let

17 the witness explain.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I was putting my question to the witness.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] But I am objecting, because

20 that's what the witness said. It was a misinterpretation. The witness

21 said that these were holes which were made so people could fire through

22 them. I don't know -- I'm very surprised at what the record says, because

23 in B/C/S the witness said very clearly that these were holes which were

24 made so that one could fire through them. They were not made by sniper

25 fire. So I need to brush up my English.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're not in a position to object to the Judge's

2 question. Let the witness explain what he said.

3 What did you say, Witness?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that these holes were made by

5 someone digging through the wall from the inside. One can see that the

6 hole was made from the inside of the building so that a barrel could be

7 pushed through the hole of a sniper or a rifle and one could shoot at

8 soldiers or civilians through it. And the only protection was to erect

9 screens so as not to be seen from these holes.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, continue. Yes.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. The man entering the building who can be seen here --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- what was the position of the building that man entered in

16 relation to this one we see here with the holes in it?

17 A. The buildings faced each other, and where this man is going in, on

18 the right-hand side you can see that from Mojmilo it was possible to fire

19 on the area between the two buildings so a wall had to be erected there.

20 And the building that was on the Bosniak side, from that building one

21 could fire on this building. If people were not cautious enough in moving

22 about, they were in danger of being hit from a sniper from -- firing from

23 these holes.

24 Q. Or maybe some other weapon could be used. But please tell us, I

25 have to ask you directly now, what army did this building belong to, the

1 one facing the building that man entered?

2 A. It belonged to the army Bosnia-Herzegovina. These buildings are

3 still there. They've been repaired. That's all.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I wish to tender this photograph,

6 and it's up to Your Honours to decide whether it has any weight, but I

7 feel it is --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As D323, Your Honours.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Before I show some

11 photographs showing persons who have been hit by something in the streets,

12 I wish to show a photograph of a building with similar characteristics to

13 this one but it's one of the best known buildings in Sarajevo. That's

14 D004228.

15 Q. Witness, what building is this? Does it have a name?

16 A. This is a building in Sarajevo on the right bank of the Miljacka

17 opposite Grbavica. It's the building of the faculty of mathematics and

18 natural sciences. The side facing Bosna did not have any windows. And

19 throughout the war anyone who passed by along Grbavica, including myself,

20 we were always afraid of these holes in the building which were made

21 overnight. In the night they would make a hole, and then on the next day

22 they would fire with snipers all over Grbavica. And we had to find out

23 where the sniper was shooting from so that we could erect screens, because

24 that was the only way to protect ourselves from sniper fire coming from

25 this building.

1 Many people fell victim here, especially until we discovered from

2 where the sniper was firing at Grbavica.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it says that this

4 is the side facing the Miljacka, not the Bosna, as the record says.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for that.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. And those dots around the most conspicuous circle, what are

8 those? Do you know what happened when fire was opened from those places?

9 But before you say that, tell us when did you take this photograph?

10 A. This was in September, I think, 1994. Although there were some

11 holes in this building that were made in this building before, but new

12 holes kept appearing. And the hole in the middle, that's where the

13 stairwell was. That was the first hole that appeared. And then they shot

14 from Grbavica, from the Serb side. You can see a lot of little holes

15 because they were trying to neutralise the fire coming from that hole, and

16 then there was no other way to deal with it but simply to put up screens

17 to prevent people being seen, because there was no other way to protect

18 oneself from that sniper. And it must be noted that when we protected one

19 area, when we knew there was a hole through which a sniper was firing,

20 they dug new holes in new places to fire at another area which then we

21 would have to protect again and put up screens made up of different

22 materials.

23 I was terrified of this building because I was not in contact with

24 those people every day, and I thought a new hole might be opened up

25 controlling some new area that I didn't know about where I would have to

1 run and hide and find shelters. I was afraid of being seen.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tapuskovic, in the transcript,

4 at page 14, line 13, it says that shots came from Grbavica, from the Serb

5 side. It came from Grbavica from the Serb side. Is that what the witness

6 meant at page 14, line 13? Is that exactly what he meant?

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Those little holes were rifle

8 shots fired to neutralise that big hole in the middle. The shots came

9 from the Serb side. That's what the witness said. Rifle shots were aimed

10 at this first hole that appeared in order to neutralise it, and then new

11 holes kept appearing. That's what the witness said.

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Fine. But this building, was it

13 located in the territory controlled by SRK or in the territory controlled

14 by ABiH?

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course I will ask the witness

16 that.

17 Q. On whose territory was this building? You said it faced the

18 Miljacka, but on whose territory was it? On whose territory?

19 A. This building was on the Bosniak side. It was on the right

20 hand -- the right side of the river Miljacka. On the left-hand side was

21 Grbavica, the Serb-controlled area.

22 Q. And tell us once again what the name of the building was. What

23 was this building?

24 A. This was the building of the faculty of mathematics and natural

25 sciences in Sarajevo. I think it was in Vojvode Putnika street. I don't

1 know the name of the house number. The name of the street then was

2 Vojvode Putnika street.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, did you hear or see the fire that gave

4 rise to these holes in the building?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These holes in the building were dug

6 from the inside of the building out. You can see that they pushed out

7 parts of the building material, and then they fired on Serb positions,

8 both soldiers and civilians, from those holes.

9 The first hole when it appeared, from the Serb side they tried to

10 neutralise it by firing at it from rifles. So you can see that the facade

11 is damaged.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: But are there any holes showing the fire from the

13 Serb side that hit the building, or do you have no evidence as to that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's evident here that an aperture

15 was made from the inside. The only holes made from the Serb side are

16 those little dots on the facade which are a result of rifle fire.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you able to say exactly when you made -- you

18 took these photographs and, if possible, how soon after either, A, the

19 holes were made allowing the ABiH to fire through them, or how soon after

20 the holes were made resulting from fire from the SRK?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This photograph was made toward the

22 end of the war. That was when I photographed the building. However, I

23 photographed the building earlier on as well. This hole in the middle of

24 the building appeared, I believe, in the summer of 1993. As soon as there

25 was no more fog, there was no more winter, you would see these apertures

1 appearing. I believe that this photograph was made sometime in May 1995.

2 However, I have photographs that only show two or three holes. As I saw

3 these holes appearing from the inside, I made photographs of the building.

4 You can see that the photograph is a bit lopsided, as I took it in

5 haste trying not to linger in the area for too long.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the transcript does

7 not reflect --

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in answer to your

11 question, at the very end he said, "You see this photograph is a bit

12 lopsided. I had to seek shelter because I was afraid that I might be

13 shot," and this part has not been entered in the transcript at all. I

14 believe that such important matters must not be left out of the

15 transcript. I cannot follow English sufficiently well, but this is what

16 he said and was not reflected in the transcript.

17 Can I just ask the witness the following --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I heard that. I heard what you just said,

19 and it should have been in the transcript. Let's proceed.

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] But this is in the transcript,

21 Mr. Tapuskovic. It is in the transcript, Mr. Tapuskovic. Page 17, line 5

22 and 6.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It says: "You can see that the photograph

24 is a bit lopsided, as I took it in haste, trying not to linger in the area

25 for too long." And then I think what was left out was, "Because -- I had

1 to take shelter because I was afraid that I might be shot," or something

2 like that.

3 Let's proceed.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Tell the Judges what is the building behind this very high

6 building that -- this building of several storeys.

7 A. This was the Marsal Tito barracks that had been abandoned. The

8 Yugoslav People's Army left the barracks sometime in 1992, and I don't

9 know what. Now it's been renovated to a certain extent. At any rate,

10 this is the former Marsal Tito barracks.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, is this where the tram line passes,

12 somewhere here?

13 A. On the opposite side, across from this building, down there beyond

14 is where the tram line runs. I believe this is the tram stop between

15 Pofalici and the museum. There is a tram stop somewhere there.

16 Q. Let me not correct the transcript, but what did you say the

17 building opposite was like?

18 A. I know when the building was made. On the lateral sides it has

19 windows, and as -- and on this side that we see, well, the identical

20 facade is on the opposite side. That's what the architectural layout of

21 the building was.

22 Q. And you were not able to take photographs from that other side?

23 A. No. That wasn't possible at all. I would have to go across and

24 then take a photograph of the building standing on the tram tracks in

25 order to obtain exactly the same photograph as I've made.

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have

2 the photograph admitted as a Defence exhibit?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As D324, Your Honours.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 91 of

6 DD003335. Page 91.

7 Q. Witness, please look at photograph 131 -- or, rather, 181. A

8 moment ago you said that you saw civilians that were shot. Is this

9 photograph consistent with what you were talking about? What can you tell

10 us about this photograph? Did you take it?

11 A. Yes, I took this photograph. This woman was hit by sniper fire,

12 and she's wounded to her leg, and you can see her leg bleeding. However,

13 nobody dared approach her until a van arrived, because this area was under

14 constant sniper fire, and nobody dared approach her before we had a

15 vehicle to take her to the hospital. And then a van arrived, and we took

16 the lady to the hospital.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this photograph

18 be admitted, please?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me hear Mr. Sachdeva.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, of course I don't object in

21 principle. However, the quality is, in my submission, very poor, and I

22 really can't see the evidential value for this photograph. Unless --

23 unless there are negatives or unless there's a colour photograph or -- and

24 also, perhaps we can get, if he hasn't done already, a date of when this

25 photograph was taken.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I have to agree the quality is very poor.

2 It almost distorts the image of the lady.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have managed to

4 produce a large number of photographs in -- of good quality, and I will

5 provide you with a photograph in one or two days, and if this one could be

6 marked for identification.

7 Q. I also forgot to ask when the photograph was taken, what year and

8 what month.

9 A. This photograph was taken in August of 1994. I don't recall the

10 exact date. I do know I happened to pass by on that day. I noticed this

11 incident and photographed it.

12 In this particular area of town quite a few people were shot.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the photograph be at least

14 marked for identification? I have another similar one. I will also

15 provide Their Honours with a good-quality copy of it this evening or

16 tomorrow or in accordance with the Chamber's orders.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: Just to -- for counsel to ask the witness through

19 Your Honour, the area of town that he's speaking about, I didn't quite get

20 the location of the photograph, of where the photograph was taken.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where was the photograph taken, Witness?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This photograph was taken at the

23 beginning of the Zagrebacka street at Grbavica. I don't know the house

24 number exactly, perhaps around house 40. As you head to Grbavica from

25 Vrace, this is where Zagrebacka street is located. The lady was probably

1 walking along the sidewalk and was probably unaware of the fact that a

2 sniper was active there.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mark it for identification pending the production

4 of a better photograph.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this will be marked for

6 identification as D325.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will have the same request to

8 make in relation to the following photograph. I will provide you with

9 documents tomorrow. Document DD3335, page 1.

10 Q. Witness, let me not repeat all my questions in -- that I put to

11 you in relation to the earlier photograph. Can you tell us what this

12 photograph shows, who took it and when? This first photograph. I will

13 also have questions for you in relation to the other photographs, but let

14 this photograph be shown the way it was before.

15 A. This photograph was taken sometime in October of 1994. I know

16 that it was raining, and it was quite chilly. A woman was going to

17 collect water, and she was shot from the faculty of mathematics, the

18 building we just referred to. I believe that this street is Lenjinova

19 street. She was walking between two buildings. She wasn't cautious

20 enough or maybe she didn't know about the new hole that was made. She was

21 shot. We couldn't approach her. She was there for some two days. They

22 covered her with a nylon. I made quite a few photographs and they were of

23 good quality. I don't know why this one is of such poor quality.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this photograph be admitted

25 as a Defence exhibit? Can it be marked for identification, and then I

1 will provide you with a good photograph.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. This will be marked for

4 identification as Exhibit D326.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You spoke of snipers, gunfire. The buildings at Grbavica where

7 you stayed at the time, were they also shot at from some other weapons or

8 some other projectiles from different weapons?

9 A. Almost throughout the time, even during cease-fires, some

10 rifle-launched grenades that were handmade were shot, and the only purpose

11 was to basically have the window-panes shattered and to have these grenade

12 enter the town and set fire to the building. They were mostly shot from

13 Sarajevo towards Grbavica.

14 I was shown by some lads what they looked like, because they had

15 managed to get hold of one of those that were defective and did not

16 explode.

17 Q. Thank you. Can we look another photograph from DD3335, page 1,

18 namely photograph number 3.

19 Who took this photograph?

20 A. I took this photograph. The lads, the soldiers brought them to me

21 to show them to me to see how these projectiles were made in Sarajevo.

22 They told me that these were a rifle-launched grenade with a flammable

23 charge. The primary objective is to have a flat set alight.

24 Q. Can this photograph also be admitted into evidence, please,

25 because I will show now the building out of which these projectiles were

1 fired?

2 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, now, I do object to the admission of

3 this photograph. The witness has identified that a group of soldiers, we

4 don't know which soldiers, brought these to him and said they came from --

5 what I think the witness is saying came from the ABiH weapons. I can't

6 see -- I understand that hearsay is admissible but for me this is really

7 tenuous evidence. And I can't see the relevance either.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not to be admitted, reliability is tenuous.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 Q. Since you said that such weapons were used to fire at flats and to

11 set them alight, I will show you photograph DD003335, photograph number

12 63.

13 Tell me, the weapons we looked at a moment ago and the damage we

14 see on the building, is the damage in fact inflicted by such projectiles,

15 the one we see here?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I -- I submit that there needs to be

19 foundation for -- foundation laid for the witness to answer such question.

20 In other words, how familiar is the witness with the kinds of rounds

21 that may cause certain craters or certain holes. There needs to be some

22 basic knowledge of ballistics or weaponry, and as this witness has

23 testified, he was not in the military, he never wanted nor did he carry a

24 weapon. So if Mr. Tapuskovic can establish a basis for the witness's

25 knowledge, then of course, but at this stage, before answering the

1 question, at least that needs to be, in my submission, established.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic. Seek to lay a foundation

3 for the witness to provide this evidence.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness showed those

5 contraptions used to fire at homes and set fire to them. That's what he

6 said. And he said that many flats or apartments were set on fire by this

7 kind of weapon, the only aim of which was to cause fires. This is a

8 photograph the witness took, and let's first hear where this building was.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, you have not carried out my

10 instruction. Evidently you did not hear. You are to establish -- you are

11 to establish a basis for the witness to give this kind of evidence. There

12 is merit in the submission from the Prosecutor.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. How do you know all this? How do you learn about it? I don't

16 know how else to put this. What you said about people's homes being set

17 on fire and about those kind of projectiles being launched, how did you

18 know about all this?

19 A. Some soldiers called me over and showed that to me. They told me

20 to take the photograph. They said these were handmade rifle-launched

21 grenades.

22 Q. Thank you. That's what you told us. But you told us that homes

23 were set on fire. Did you see with your own eyes those kind of

24 projectiles doing this and people's flats burning?

25 A. I saw that personally, and maybe we'll come across those

1 photographs later. I saw flats on fire, and some of those projectiles

2 failed to explode, and they were brought to me. They have something

3 inside to start a fire. So the upper floors of buildings were fired at

4 with those projectiles. And although I'm not a soldier, I came to

5 understand what those projectiles were. The soldiers told me, "Look.

6 These are rifle-launched grenades, the purpose of which is to set fire to

7 flats." These were in addition to those industrially made rifle-launched

8 grenades that they fired at Grbavica.

9 Q. Thank you. Is this a building that suffered that fate?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

11 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm sorry, Mr. President, I still -- I still

12 persist, because now the witness has said that the soldiers told him that

13 these were the grenades that were fired on these flats and the witness has

14 said that the soldiers told him of the purpose. In other words, the

15 purpose to set alight these flats. So it's not only hearsay evidence in

16 the extreme, but it's also opinion evidence by soldiers passed down to

17 this witness, and this witness is now testifying about the purpose,

18 through this very, very shaky link, in my submission. So I still can't

19 see how the witness can answer these questions reliably.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are not admitting this, Mr. Tapuskovic.

22 Unless you have better evidence than this from the witness, just stop.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask him whether he saw this

24 building burning?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I've already ruled on it. Now, move to your

1 next piece of evidence.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] We'll come to other buildings,

3 but now let's see what those screens looked like, the ones you said you

4 had to erect to protect yourself from snipers. For example, let's look at

5 DD004233. It's a good quality photograph.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, what is the point of this? We

7 have already seen screens used for that purpose by both sides.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can stop asking

9 questions about this. I have a few pictures which are very eloquent,

10 showing what people had to do to protect themselves from gunfire, and I

11 can ask where this is located, but all this shows --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... but only if

13 it takes the evidence any further. I mean, to show the screens to protect

14 themselves, doesn't take the matter any further. We've already seen that.

15 And there's no doubt -- the Prosecution isn't doubting that Serbs had

16 erect screens to protect themselves. I have no doubt that they did.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Well, then I'll ask you directly. You've shown those buildings.

19 You've shown those two women who were killed -- or, rather, one was

20 wounded, another was killed. How many persons like that were there that

21 you know of who were killed or wounded by fire, whether infantry, sniper,

22 and how many photographs could you have brought here had I asked you to?

23 A. I have voluminous archives. There are many such instances. I

24 selected these two and showed them to you and you said that was all right.

25 I have a lot of that material from 1992 to 1995. There were many

1 casualties. I know that there was one day where eight people were shot by

2 snipers, fatally shot on one day and four others wounded, and that was on

3 one day alone. Those persons were taken to the Kasindol hospital.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have no doubt that all these photographs would

5 be very appropriate for a museum, but their evidential value,

6 Mr. Tapuskovic, is exceedingly questionable.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Their Honours say that it has already been shown that many

9 civilians were killed or wounded. There were some photographs I wanted to

10 show. Let's show at least one to show what persons had to resort to in

11 order to tend to their gardens. I will show just that one photograph, and

12 I will refrain from showing others I meant to show. So let's have just

13 one if we may, just one of the photographs I wanted to show about this to

14 show what a man living in such circumstances had to do in order to be able

15 to tend to his garden, because we heard here about Serbs shooting at

16 people digging in their gardens, going to funerals, and so on. So let's

17 see what life was like for people on the other side. Let's show just one

18 photograph, and if Your Honours feel it's not relevant, then of course

19 I'll stop there, at least when it comes to these screens. By your leave,

20 let me just show DD004273.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know why this is such

22 poor quality. It's in excellent condition. If it could be placed on the

23 ELMO. I don't understand why it looks like this here. Could it be placed

24 on the ELMO?

25 If the witness could explain where and when he took this

1 photograph. I don't explain myself. Let the witness explain.

2 Q. Can you explain, Witness?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, explain.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This photograph was taken in the

5 spring of 1995 in the Nedzarici neighbourhood. I don't know the name of

6 the street. I noticed a man who was digging in his garden with a hoe, but

7 in order to move around the area in front of his house he had to place

8 these tin sheets to protect himself from sniper fire. He had a small

9 garden round his house which he cultivated to grow food.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this photograph be admitted

12 into evidence?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As D327, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time for the break. Do you have any more

16 questions, Mr. Tapuskovic?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Tapuskovic.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a short film of two minutes

19 taken by the witness.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we'll take the break now.

21 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: In Judge Harhoff's absence, Judge Mindua and I

24 sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

25 Mr. Tapuskovic.

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Witness, can we explain to the Judges the following: It has been

3 stated here that you do not know anything about weapons. Is that right?

4 Please explain to the Judges that you held certain duties with what unit

5 exactly, and did you also have some military duties to perform?

6 A. I was at the press centre attached to the corps command. I did

7 not take part in combat. That's the only thing I did not participate in,

8 but otherwise I was a conscript.

9 Q. You say you were at the press centre. What were your duties

10 exactly?

11 A. I was charged with going to various sites and taking photographs.

12 I took foreign crews there, and wherever I went I was explained what had

13 been going on. I came to learn a great deal of things and to know what

14 sort of weapons were used where.

15 Q. Were you able to send all the information you had, including the

16 photographs, to the mass media that had nothing to do with the

17 Republika Srpska?

18 A. There were such cases. We allowed for the material to be taken

19 and publicised. It all depended on the crews that came, on the mass media

20 involved. Some of them used the material, others were simply not

21 interested in it.

22 Q. Did representatives of foreign television and media companies show

23 any interest in the material you had and was any of it publicised?

24 A. I followed the broadcasts of various mass media, and I observed

25 that some of the crews had used the material we provided. Others were

1 simply not interested. The material was used by them in the manner they

2 wished. Sometimes we would note that the material had been used in the

3 ways that we did not deem favourable. However, we provided our material

4 to all those who expressed -- to such crews as expressed interest in it.

5 Q. Thank you. Since you moved about in the field, can you tell us

6 whether you were able to see where the lines of separation were?

7 A. I was familiar with the lines of separation for the most part.

8 Very often I had to ask someone who was well -- who was familiar with the

9 situation, who was well-versed in the situation to escort me to the front

10 line so would I not come in harm's way.

11 Q. Thank you. Since you lived at Grbavica, are you quite familiar

12 with the situation there?

13 A. I was quite familiar with the situation at Grbavica. If I was on

14 the move, I simply had to adhere to the rules that we had concerning

15 sniper fire. I had to consult with people, where the places were, where

16 one had to accelerate movement, because as I said, there were victims from

17 sniper fire. This happened on a daily basis.

18 Q. Thank you. Please tell me what was the geographical position of

19 Grbavica?

20 A. This is a part of the urban part of Sarajevo on the left bank of

21 the Miljacka. On the right bank of the Miljacka there were high-rise

22 buildings under the control of the BH army. On one side Grbavica was at

23 risk from Mojmilo, from Asimovo Brdo, Sanac. That's close to the

24 Zeleznica football team stadium. They were up there above that area on

25 the hilltop. We were quite afraid of the hill, and we were very cautious.

1 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Was there another hill as well?

2 A. We called it Debelo Brdo. Sometime in the autumn of 1994, the BH

3 army doing out a trench and came up on the hilltop. The hill overlooks

4 Grbavica, and one can clearly see the Lukavica-Pale road from it. There,

5 in the immediate vicinity of the hill, there was an UNPROFOR check-point,

6 and they --

7 Q. Thank you. I will show you photograph DD004226.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the quality of this

9 photograph is quite poor. Perhaps we should place the photograph on the

10 ELMO so as not to have my learned friend Sachdeva complaining about the

11 quality of the photograph.

12 Q. Witness, who took this photograph?

13 A. I took this photograph, and I believe it was in the autumn of

14 1994. I was taking this photograph from the direction of Grbavica, from a

15 building that provided this view. I can indicate on this photograph if

16 you want me to.

17 Q. Pause there, please. Tell us first what the photograph shows?

18 A. This is called Debelo Brdo.

19 Q. Where were the positions of the army of Republika Srpska?

20 A. Perhaps I can draw them on the photograph here.

21 Q. Please.

22 A. What you see down here is the end of the Jewish cemetery or,

23 rather, the top-most part of it, and this is roughly where the lines were.

24 What you see down there is the Kovacici or Donje Kovacici neighbourhood

25 as they call it. It was under the control of --

1 Q. Thank you. Please mark the line you drew with the letter "S".

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. And can you please mark the Kovacici neighbourhood with a capital

4 letter "K".

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And the circle you made, what was there?

7 A. That's the line of separation at the Jewish cemetery. This is the

8 edge of the Jewish cemetery, which was practically under the control of

9 the Bosnian army rather than anyone else's.

10 Q. And who held the hill at the time you took the photograph?

11 A. You can see the trench here that was dug by members of the BH

12 army. You can see how it stretches upwards all the way down to this --

13 all the way up to this place where you could have a clear view of the

14 Lukavica-Pale road or Grbavica-Pale road and control it.

15 Q. Thank you. Can you draw an arrow pointing in that direction.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. And mark it with the letter "M".

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Where is Zlatiste exactly? Can you explain?

20 A. You can see a part of it in this area there, a part of the

21 Zlatiste fort.

22 Q. Thank you. Can you please mark it with a "Z", please.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Were there soldiers there of any side?

25 A. No, there were no soldiers there at all. This was a ruin that was

1 not easily accessible and one exposed oneself to great risk if one

2 attempted to go there. There was a lot of shrubbery and forest there.

3 Q. Now that we're talking about Zlatiste, can you draw us the line

4 indicating where the road ran?

5 A. There, behind this forest there.

6 Q. Can you mark it with the letter "O", please.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. It stretched further on toward Pale.

9 A. Yes, to the left toward Pale, to the right toward Lukavica -- or,

10 rather, Grbavica. And at one point at this site that I marked, one could

11 clearly see the road.

12 Q. Did you ever see the BH army firing from this hilltop in the

13 direction of the road towards Zlatiste?

14 A. I was present on several occasions when there were ongoing

15 activities. On the first occasion I was told that they were firing upon

16 Vrace and a house was set on fire there. I even brought a photograph to

17 that effect.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us -- or, rather, draw a line, an arrow

19 indicating the direction of the combat activities.

20 A. Toward Grbavica and Vrace.

21 Q. Yes, but what about Zlatiste? What about the road at Zlatiste?

22 What was the direction of the activities there?

23 A. You see the arrow marked "M" behind the hilltop as the road bent,

24 you could see at least half a kilometre of the road.

25 Q. And did -- was there any fire upon this line up there?

1 A. Yes, there was. It was quite risky to take that road.

2 Q. Can you please draw an arrow indicating the direction of fire?

3 A. Not only from this vantage point but also from this area here as

4 well.

5 Q. Can you please mark the left marking with the letter "L" and the

6 right marking, the right arrow, with the letter "F".

7 A. [Marks]

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have this

9 photograph admitted into evidence, please.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As D328, Your Honours.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Please look at photograph DD00-4230, since you mentioned the road

14 across Zlatiste. The first one. It's not good enough. Could we place

15 the photograph I have on the ELMO.

16 A moment ago you mentioned Zlatiste. Has this photograph anything

17 to do with Zlatiste?

18 A. This photograph was taken along the Lukavica-Pale road just --

19 just above the settlement called Zlatiste. You can see here that the

20 screen on the roadside was damaged, because oftentimes they would fire a

21 rifle-launched grenade at this screen wherever they felt that somebody was

22 taking the road.

23 Q. Can you please draw an arrow indicating the direction from which

24 the grenade arrived and where it impacted.

25 A. [Marks]

1 Q. Were there any casualties involved?

2 A. I know for a fact that on the 17th of June a man was killed

3 shortly before the photograph was taken. A grenade impacted against this

4 concrete wall and the man was killed.

5 Q. Where was the man heading?

6 A. Towards Pale.

7 Q. Was he walking in just the same way as the two persons we see on

8 this photograph?

9 A. Yes. When one took this road one had to be quiet, because as soon

10 as they heard a human voice they fired a grenade or some other projectile.

11 And one never took this road unless one really needed to.

12 Q. Can you draw a line -- you said that this -- that the person was

13 moving in the direction of Pale. Can you draw a line to that effect and

14 mark it with the letter "P".

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. What followed there behind the bend we can see here?

17 A. Beyond the bend there was an observation post of the army of the

18 Republika Srpska. I believe it was in mid-May that General Milosevic was

19 wounded there.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this photograph

21 be admitted as a Defence exhibit?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As D329, Your Honours.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. What did you say? When was this photograph taken? Did I

1 understand you correctly when you -- or, rather, I will not speak on the

2 matter. Tell us.

3 A. This was taken on the 17th of June, 1995. Sometime before that

4 date, I believe it was in mid-May, that General Milosevic was wounded on

5 this spot at that forward post.

6 Q. You don't know the date?

7 A. No. I only heard that he was wounded. I didn't know any details

8 surrounding that.

9 Q. You also said -- or, rather, has this photograph been assigned a

10 number?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. That was admitted as D329.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. Was there any fire from Mojmilo upon Grbavica?

14 A. One part of Grbavica lay beneath Mojmilo or, rather, beneath the

15 Zeleznica football club stadium. This was held by the BH army. We were

16 constantly exposed to dangers from that area. That area was called Sanac

17 but is in fact part of Mojmilo.

18 Q. Thank you. Let me show you DD004240. It's a photograph.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a poor copy

20 too. I have a better one.

21 Q. Can you tell the Judges what this is? You've just indicated that

22 there was Sanac and Mojmilo. What is this?

23 A. This is part of Mojmilo, whereas this specific area here is called

24 Sanac.

25 Q. Can you please circle it.

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Place the letter "S" with a diacritic "Sh" in the middle?

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Who was positioned there? Which army?

5 A. Members of the BH army were there. Right beneath there lies

6 Grbavica. You can see one of the flashlights of the Zeleznica football

7 club stadium. Beneath the floodlights there, you have Grbavica.

8 Q. Can you please the letter "G" there, please.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Who held the position along the top of the photograph?

11 A. All these oppositions of the Bosnian army.

12 Q. Please draw a line.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Mark it with the letter "B".

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Is this where shots were fired on Grbavica?

17 A. Yes. There was fire coming from there on Grbavica, and also from

18 this part of the of hill there was fire towards Lukavica.

19 Q. Draw an arrow in that direction, and mark it with the letter L.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I wish to tender this photograph.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As D330, Your Honours.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. I now wish to show you a similar photograph, and please tell us

2 when it was taken and what it shows. It's DD004241. Could we again put

3 this on the ELMO, please.

4 Can you tell us when this photograph was taken?

5 A. This photograph was taken in 1995, and here one can see part of

6 Asim's hill. Asimovo Brdo.

7 Q. Please whenever you indicate something, circle it.

8 A. This is Sanac, Asimovo Brdo, Asim's hill.

9 Q. And what is this here that's burning?

10 A. That's a building at Grbavica. It was set alight from up above

11 with those improvised projectiles. I even came here with some soldiers,

12 and in one apartment or flat I saw an unexploded improvised rifle-launched

13 grenade. And then the soldiers brought me more of those and I took that

14 photograph. I took at that photograph that you saw.

15 Q. And what time was this taken?

16 A. Around June or July 1995, I think. I had a lot of those

17 photographs, so it's hard to be precise.

18 Q. Thank you. And who was holding the positions along the top of the

19 hill? If you know who was holding those positions draw a line, please.

20 A. All along this line were positions of the Bosnian army up until

21 the end of Mojmilo, the waterworks.

22 Q. Mark it with a "B".

23 A. [Marks]

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I wish to tender this photograph

25 as a Defence exhibit.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As D331, Your Honours.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Of course you took all these photographs yourself with your own

5 camera.

6 A. Yes. I took all of those photographs, and I remember taking them.

7 I had to do everything in black and white because I didn't have any

8 colour film. It was very hard to come by photographic material. Some

9 foreign teams would leave me a roll or two of film.

10 Q. I now wish to show you DD004224.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Again the quality is bad. Could

12 we place this on the ELMO, please.

13 Q. Do you know what this photograph shows? What hill is that over

14 there? What hill is it?

15 A. The hill with the point on it is the hill of Hum.

16 Q. Mark it, please. Mark everything you say. With an "H".

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And what made these holes here, do you know? What is this, first

19 of all. Can you tell us?

20 A. This is the Vrace memorial park where during World War II patriots

21 were shot, Jews also, Serbs, and all patriots. And this park, memorial

22 park, was shot at with a recoilless gun. You can see the rubble that has

23 fallen inside.

24 Q. From what direction?

25 A. From Hum. And also the clinic at Vrace was targeted with a

1 recoilless gun because they told me that a recoilless gun causes this kind

2 of damage.

3 Q. Can you draw a line to indicate from where the fire came.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Mark it with a "A".

6 A. [Marks]

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I wish to tender this also.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: It will be admitted.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As D332, Your Honours.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Do you know something about fire from the army of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina when it comes to Mount Igman?

13 A. Well, they kept firing from Igman. Ilidza was under threat, as

14 well as a neighbourhood called Vojkovici. The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

15 was at Igman, and those places were very close to the line, and on more

16 than one occasion I saw the consequences of that firing from Igman on

17 Vojkovici and Ilidza.

18 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to show you DD004244. Again the quality

19 is poor.

20 When you spoke about the consequences of fire from Igman, does it

21 have anything to do with this photograph?

22 A. This photograph is directly connected to that. You can see the

23 remains of a house. It was an old house built of brick, and these are the

24 top -- this is the top of Mount Igman. And when I was here, they told me

25 that this house had been destroyed, and I think two people were killed,

1 and they said it was something called a "fagot". I really don't

2 understand about these weapons, but this house was reduced to this

3 condition that we see here. It's below Igman towards Stojcevac on

4 territory held by members of the army of Republika Srpska.

5 Q. Please mark that first line with the letter "I".

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. You said that was the top of Mount Igman or, rather, the ridge of

8 Mount Igman and the rubble of that house with "S" and the direction from

9 which that projectile might have come?

10 A. Well, from the middle part of Igman, they came down towards Ilidza

11 and the source of the River Bosna and I know that an APC was hit on the

12 crossroads near the Drin [phoen] bridge, as they called it.

13 Q. And what did you say this place was called which was under the

14 control of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

15 A. This was below Igman. It's a part of Ilidza towards Stojcevac. I

16 don't know what the village is called or, rather, the neighbourhood but

17 it's near Hrasnica, and very close to these houses there were other lines.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I wish to tender this photograph.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As D333, Your Honours.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, you spoke about fire coming from the army of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina. What did the houses in Grbavica, Nedzarici, Dobrinja and

23 other areas look like?

24 A. Well, in these places houses were destroyed, damaged especially in

25 1994 or 1995, on two or three occasions something was always happening.

1 Although, I know there were lulls in the fighting but reports kept coming

2 that the Bosniak side was digging trenches in this direction and that

3 direction, breaking through walls between buildings and so on.

4 Q. I would now like to show you two photographs. One is important

5 because of very important circumstances here, but first let's see

6 DD004272.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Again we have the same problem.

8 I apologise for having to get you up every so often.

9 Q. Is this what you were talking about? And where is this?

10 A. These are houses in Nedzarici. The army of Republika Srpska was

11 here. In the basement of these houses there was an elderly man who was

12 living there.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender this

14 photograph.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As D334, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, perhaps the witness can explain on

19 what basis he knows an elderly man was living there.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think that's necessary. Let's move on.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Let's show one more building that was mentioned here very often,

23 DD004255.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, again the same problem.

25 Q. Witness, what building is this?

1 A. This is the Metalka building on the bank of the Miljacka near the

2 Vrbanja bridge. That's what it was called then. And I know that in 1992

3 a woman was killed in this building, and this building was very dangerous

4 to approach, especially the entrances. I think in 1994 and 1995 nobody

5 lived here. Nobody could approach that side. And on the right-hand side

6 here there was a UN check-point, two large dugouts, right next to the

7 building.

8 Q. What time are you talking about?

9 A. 1994, 1995. This photograph I know was taken, in fact, in 1995.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, what does this photograph, for

11 example, show that is of value to the case?

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. What can we see on this photograph? What building is this?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I'm asking you, Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that in 1994,

16 1995 -- Your Honours, it shows, first of all, that there was constant

17 fighting and that this building was fired on by the artillery of the army

18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's the Metalka building, and the witness says

19 that at that time there was nobody there because no one could live in it,

20 first of all. And secondly, nearby were UNPROFOR check-points in 1994 and

21 1995. The witness stated this. And all this is in the context of

22 constant fighting. This building was constantly under fire, as were other

23 buildings. I can show you hundreds of photographs. I've shown only a few

24 which are important for this case. I could show you a thousand

25 photographs perhaps.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. To what effect? That's the question.

2 Mr. Sachdeva.

3 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, firstly, I fail to see how a

4 photograph taken on a particular day demonstrates that there was constant

5 fighting or that this building was constantly targeted. The photograph

6 does not, in my submission, demonstrate that. And so for counsel to

7 suggest that, is, in my submission, incorrect.

8 And again, I -- I do not see -- I do not see the relevance of --

9 of this photograph to the case and to the charges against the accused. So

10 I would object to the admission of this photograph.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Mr. Sachdeva, we have some -- we have

13 evidence in the case of course that the Metalka building was significant.

14 There was firing from it, and it was fired upon. The -- we'll -- we'll

15 admit it.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As D335, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. You have exhausted your time now,

18 Mr. Tapuskovic. I have just been told by the court deputy.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will try to finish quite soon.

20 Quite correctly at the outset we were cautioned about the relevance of

21 showing some documents material to the witness. However, the presentation

22 of the photographs to the witness takes quite a long time. Can I please

23 have some additional time? I will soon finish. I still have video

24 footage of two minutes that I have to show the witness, and I'll try to go

25 through that quite fast.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Then let's proceed as quickly as possible.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, I have to go back to some other issues we have talked

4 about, the photographs, and what they depicted. You said that you knew

5 that Dragomir Milosevic had taken up the command position in the month of

6 August. What was situation like in those early days of General Milosevic

7 becoming the commander, and did you ever come across him when you -- as

8 you worked in the press office?

9 A. I would come across General Milosevic quite often at the press

10 office building whenever I was on my way out or on my way in. At that

11 point in time there was some sort of a cease-fire in force. There was not

12 much gunfire. I keep repeating that the Bosniak side was digging trenches

13 and advancing toward our forces, even toward the UNPROFOR, and I believe

14 all of this is documented. I recall that since there was a cease-fire on,

15 I was even off duty for a while as I had some family matters I had to

16 attend to.

17 Q. Were you sent out for an assignment in the month of October?

18 A. Yes, I was assigned to go to Cakle. Even the French UN contingent

19 drove me up there to Cakle. This is beyond Igman and Treskavica. I was

20 to go there because an incident had occurred. I know that was protected

21 zone that had been demilitarised. There should not have been any combat

22 activities there. There was the headquarters of the Medical Corps and the

23 logistics of a battalion of the 2nd Sarajevo Brigade.

24 Q. And what happened in the demilitarised zone there?

25 A. This came as a shock to all of us. Allegedly there was a

1 cease-fire, and the French soldiers were surprised. They organised a

2 team. They put a team together to carry out an on-site investigation up

3 there and to take photographs. We simply could not believe that a

4 sabotage group could launch a raid against the headquarters there.

5 I took photographs. Twelve persons were killed. I know that a

6 nurse by the name of Bjelica was killed. I recall her in particular

7 because her brother had been killed in the war, and her father came over

8 there later on. This was taken as serious incident.

9 The French joined us -- or, rather, took us up there and carried

10 out an on-site investigation, which shows how seriously they took it.

11 Q. Thank you. I could also show you a photograph depicting UNPROFOR,

12 will you bet me show you DD004261 first.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I suppose we'd better put it on

14 the ELMO.

15 Q. Are these the bodies of the soldiers killed in the demilitarised

16 zone?

17 A. Yes. This was taken at the scene. Everything had been left

18 untouched for the French to come in and see the scene. This is the start

19 of the compound, and up there in the forest the raid was launched. There

20 were some charred bodies there, and here in the foreground there were

21 bodies of the people who were trying to flee the area. Among them was the

22 nurse who was killed.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I tender this photograph into

25 evidence.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

2 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I object on the grounds of

3 relevance. This photograph depicts soldiers, deceased soldiers and

4 deceased soldiers take place in -- soldiers get killed in war, and I can't

5 see how this, in my submission, furthers -- would assist you in

6 determining matters in this case.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, what is the relevance of this?

9 You've heard the objection.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This was a very important moment

11 in the conflict. Very important key witnesses of the Prosecution

12 testified about this. Among them, protected witness W-46, not to mention

13 others. Several witnesses therefore spoke to this event in the

14 demilitarised zone and about how it had an impact on the overall situation

15 and the warring parties. This was an important event, testifying about

16 the violation of the demilitarised zone, which led to the loss of a great

17 many lives, including nurses. A column had been attacked which also

18 included nurses.

19 This is an important event which had to do with several other

20 matters, and among others Witness W-46 testified about this. This

21 photograph is, among other things, also a confirmation of that testimony.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.

23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I can't be 100 per cent sure, but I

24 am, as much as I can be, that the evidence that learned counsel is

25 speaking to must have come out of cross-examination. It certainly was not

1 part of the Prosecution case in chief. And in addition, the photograph

2 does not -- the photograph is of soldiers. It depicts soldiers and not --

3 not nurses. So I still can't see how this assists -- assists

4 Your Honours.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will admit it.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As D336, Your Honours.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Since my learned friend Sachdeva

9 says that there wasn't a nurse there, I want the to call up DD004262,

10 which is a photograph depicting that young lady who was killed.

11 Q. Is this the nurse?

12 A. Yes. This is the nurse. I know that her family name is Bjelica.

13 She was found a bit further down, further away from the soldiers as she

14 was trying to get away.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have this photograph

16 admitted as a Defence exhibit? This shows that even a nurse was killed in

17 an action launched against a demilitarised zone.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As D337, Your Honours.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I am nearing the end of my

21 examination.

22 Q. Witness, you said that you knew that in mid-June of 1995,

23 General Milosevic was wounded.

24 A. Yes. I know. I know that he was wounded at an observation post.

25 I did not come across the general in that period of time.

1 Q. Do you know when he went away on sick leave?

2 A. I believe it was sometime in August of 1995. Sometime in that

3 period.

4 Q. What do you base your answer on?

5 A. I know that I heard them talking about the general having to go on

6 sick leave, and he was simply not there in that period of time.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a request to

8 make. When his driver was testifying, at that time we did not have the

9 translation of the medical documentation from the hospital where

10 General Dragomir Milosevic was treated. This witness has confirmed to you

11 now that he knew he had been wounded and that he had been away for a

12 while. Therefore, this medical documentation which has now been

13 translated and which shows that for a while he was absent, as had been

14 confirmed by other witnesses, he had been away from the positions since he

15 was in the hospital, I would like this medical document to be admitted.

16 This is DD003 -- or, rather, 1089.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter isn't sure about the number.

18 JUDGE MINDUA: What is it? What is the document?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not clear to me how this witness is going to

20 speak to the medical document, to the information on it. You can try.

21 Let us see whether the witness knows anything about the information on it.

22 Mr. Sachdeva.

23 MR. SACHDEVA: Well, I'll wait, Mr. President.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this witness has

25 confirmed, and there were other witnesses, several witnesses had been

1 examined about this matter, including his driver, who drove him for his

2 treatment to Belgrade in early August. He returned, as other witnesses

3 testified, in early September. At that time when that witness was being

4 examined the medical documentation had not been translated as yet. This

5 was something you observed.

6 In the meantime, the service here has translated the

7 documentation. This witness here knows that the general was absent in the

8 month of August and that he was away for treatment. This medical

9 documentation -- rather, we will have a medical expert witness who will be

10 able to comment on it. This is the letter of discharge which shows that

11 he was in the hospital from the 9th of August until the 1st of September

12 and that later on he was on sick leave at home.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: How am I to admit it? You haven't asked the

14 witness a single question about the document. You're seeking to have it

15 admitted through this witness. So he has to be able to speak to the

16 contents of the certificate, and you haven't asked him a single question.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct. I've run ahead

18 of myself. I've started from the end rather than from the beginning. But

19 very well. This is DD003189. Page 3.

20 Q. While we're waiting for the document to appear, you say that you

21 used to see him. When you were working at the press service, where were

22 you exactly located in the building in relation to where the accused was?

23 A. The press service was on the ground floor of the building next to

24 the entrance, and upstairs were the offices of General Milosevic. If I

25 happened to be at the press service as his escort, the lads who were with

1 him would come over to me and we could chat. And I know that they told me

2 that General Milosevic was supposed to go away for treatment, that he

3 would be absent because he had problems with his health. And I believe

4 that this was in early August of 1995.

5 Q. Here is the document. Can we show the letter of discharge, which

6 is page 3. This is page -- or, rather, page 5 of the B/C/S. The page

7 immediately before this one.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, now I -- with respect, I don't see

10 how, especially after Mr. Tapuskovic himself has said that he has started

11 at the end and not at the beginning, in other words, essentially given

12 evidence from the bar table, and now he's asking the witness certain

13 questions which -- which in my submission has already been -- the answers

14 have already been aired in court.

15 And secondly, the witness, if one peruses the evidence thus far,

16 even the witness has given contradictory evidence as to the date of

17 wounding of General Milosevic which I obviously will bring out in

18 cross-examination or I don't need to, but since it relates to this --

19 since on that basis this document is being put to the witness, I don't see

20 how the witness can give reliable answers on the document. The

21 Prosecution does not object to the admission of the document, but not

22 through this witness.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Continue. We'll decide on the

24 question of its admission, if you're going to seek its admission, at the

25 end of the witness's evidence.

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we see that two

2 minutes of footage which has to do with everything the witness has said so

3 far? It's only two minutes long, and then Your Honours will see whether

4 it's significant or not in the context of what the witness has already

5 spoken about.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: You've said it's two minutes. Let's see it.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Who made this film, sir? Witness, who made this film?

10 A. I made this film sometime in May -- or, rather, in the spring. It

11 was a rainy day of 1995. I was at Pale, and I set out from Pale with a

12 crew, and I made the video along the way. It's the road leading from Pale

13 to Grbavica. And in certain places you can see those protective screens

14 made of boards to protect from snipers and other fire, and when you go

15 from Grbavica to Vrace you can see more protection to -- to avoid buses by

16 being seen. And then in order to be safe you have to go -- and then when

17 you go to Grbavica towards the town, you see all those curtains hanging.

18 And it was there because without that you simply couldn't get through.

19 Q. What is the name of the street leading down towards Grbavica?

20 A. It used to be called Zagrebacka Street, and then Rave Jankovica

21 continues along it. It's actually going from Vrace to Grbavica.

22 Q. And how far from that street were BH army positions? I'm

23 referring to Mojmilo and Debelo Brdo.

24 A. I can't be precise, but from Debelo Brdo it was quite close. I

25 don't know if it's as much as a kilometre, a thousand metres as the crow

1 flies, and on the other side, across the Miljacka, that street was

2 completely exposed without those curtains that were set up for protection.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to tender

4 this footage which faithfully represents what the witness has described

5 more than once with respect to those curtains protecting vehicles,

6 civilians, people. It's the street mentioned by all the witnesses where

7 there were the most casualties, and several Defence witnesses have spoken

8 about this.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As D338, Your Honours.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have completed my

12 examination-in-chief. Thank you. Just a moment, please. There was a

13 document which I haven't tendered with the first and last name of this

14 witness. Our number was DD003984. Under seal. It has not been admitted

15 into evidence.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll admit it.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As D339 under seal, Your Honours.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, cross-examination.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

22 Q. Good afternoon, Witness T-41. My name is Manoj Sachdeva, and I'm

23 a lawyer for the Prosecution and I'm going to ask you some questions.

24 MR. SACHDEVA: May I ask the court usher to -- oh, thank you very

25 much. To lower the ELMO. Thank you.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours.

3 You said you would decide about this medical document at the end of

4 today. I had tendered it.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: At the end of the witness's evidence. That is

6 after cross-examination and perhaps if there is re-examination.

7 MR. SACHDEVA:

8 Q. Witness, just going back to that video we just saw, when -- when

9 it was being played you could hear some talking from the car, I take it.

10 A. Yes. There was a conversation in the car. There was some

11 foreigners, I think they were journalists, and their interpreter was

12 explaining to them where we were going, what was happening, and giving the

13 driver instructions, telling him where to watch out. I don't speak

14 English, so I don't know, but later on when I saw the footage I explained

15 where we were going and what was happening.

16 Q. Well, you say later on when you saw the footage. Can I just

17 clarify, were you in the car taking the footage at the time?

18 A. Yes, I was in the car. I was sitting in front next to the driver.

19 You can see this was taken while the car was driving. I know it was

20 spring, and it was raining.

21 Q. And when you say it was spring -- you said it was spring 1995.

22 Can you recall, was it April or May, 1995? What month was it?

23 A. This was in May, towards the end of May, I think, in 1995. I

24 might have been able to find the precise date. I didn't try. Some

25 journalists came along. I went with them from Pale to Lukavica. I sat in

1 the front so I could film this. I think it was in late May, 1995.

2 Q. So even though we understand the weather in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

3 when you say it was towards the end of May it was essentially in the

4 summer of 1995; is that correct?

5 A. Well, I know that in Sarajevo at the end of May the trees start

6 budding. The first leaves appear on the trees.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

9 How can May be summer? How can May be said to be summer?

10 MR. SACHDEVA: I'll move on.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us move on.

12 MR. SACHDEVA:

13 Q. And, sir, that drive that you took, you said you were going from

14 Pale to -- to Grbavica; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And were the journalists in the car, were they with you for the

17 whole of that trip from Pale to Grbavica?

18 A. I don't know what the place was called exactly. They came by and

19 I got in the car with them, and I went up to Grbavica. And I had my

20 camera on not all the time but almost all the time.

21 Q. And the clip that we saw, it ran for about two minutes, and you

22 would agree with me that in that clip one could not make out or one could

23 not hear the sound of gunfire or -- or shelling, could one?

24 A. I don't remember. I didn't hear that. But I know that it's a

25 risky road and that you had to keep to some rules. Drive on the left,

1 speed up in certain spots, and so on. Probably had they seen us, they

2 would have shot at us.

3 Q. In any case that clip, you would agree with me it appeared to be a

4 relaxed drive, did it not?

5 A. Well, I don't know who would be relaxed. Perhaps those people who

6 were sitting in the car not knowing where they were going. But I wasn't

7 relaxed. I had my camera on. I knew I was in constant danger on that

8 road.

9 Q. During the trip from -- from Pale to Grbavica the car was not hit,

10 was it?

11 A. No, it wasn't hit, no.

12 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could now ask for --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: How long did the trip last? Witness, how long

14 was the trip?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't really say. I filmed two or

16 three minutes. The drive from Trebevic triangle, I came in another car

17 and then I went down to those guys and then they picked me up. They -- I

18 got in the car with them, and then the place is called Prvi Sumar to

19 Grbavica. How long the drive takes, I don't know. You saw that the road

20 is narrow. It was in poor condition. It was very hard to move along that

21 road.

22 MR. SACHDEVA:

23 Q. Witness, can we -- can we take it that it was over -- at least

24 over one hour?

25 A. No, not even half an hour, because from Prvi Sumar we got down

1 quite quickly. They had a very good car, those foreigners, and in some

2 places we had to drive very fast to avoid coming under fire.

3 Q. Incidentally, do you recall where these foreigners were from?

4 Which media company were they from, since you were in the car with them.

5 A. I know there was a TV crew from Belgrade, and they brought along

6 some Englishmen, but who or what they were or what agency they worked for

7 I don't know because I didn't stay with them. After Grbavica, half an

8 hour later I went to my home to have lunch.

9 Q. So they were from Belgrade. So presumably they were Serbian; is

10 that right?

11 A. I know that the driver was probably a Serb. I didn't question

12 him. But the others, there were four of us in the car, I think, the

13 others were English.

14 Q. Let me just try and get some clarification. I asked you about the

15 media company. You said -- you said it was a TV crew from Belgrade. So

16 is my understanding that the TV company from Belgrade brought along

17 English journalists, and it was eventually for the -- well, is that the

18 correct understanding?

19 A. I didn't say that the TV crew was from Belgrade but that some

20 people from Belgrade brought I think in two cars a kind of TV crew or

21 delegation from England.

22 Q. Well, let me just try and clarify now, because your answer -- when

23 I asked you the question, incidentally do you know where these foreigners

24 were from? What media company were they from since you were in the car

25 with them. Your answer was, "I know there was a TV crew from Belgrade and

1 they brought along some Englishmen." So as you were in the car, can you

2 just clarify to the Court was this indeed a TV crew -- was there a TV crew

3 from Belgrade in the car?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not hear the

6 witness speak of a TV crew from Belgrade. What I heard was there was some

7 people or something like that. He didn't mention any TV crew from

8 Belgrade. Can we see where that is?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, in 57, line 12. It just went off the

10 screen. He said there was a TV crew from Belgrade. This is what is on

11 the transcript at any rate.

12 Proceed.

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. So, Witness, please just answer the question. Was there a TV crew

16 from Belgrade with you, accompanying you, on at that drive, irrespective

17 of whether there were English journalists there.

18 A. That was not a crew of a TV station from Serbia or Belgrade, but

19 those journalists who came first got escorts in Belgrade to bring them to

20 us, and what I said was a TV crew from Belgrade, but what I meant to say

21 was Englishmen, because for me those Englishmen and those people from

22 Belgrade were all a TV crew whom I was taking round the battlefields and

23 so on.

24 Q. What was the name of the -- what was the name of the company?

25 What was the name of the media company?

1 A. I don't know exactly now. I wasn't really paying attention to

2 that at the time. The important thing for me was to reach to Lukavica or,

3 rather, Grbavica. And since one of them was the person from Belgrade who

4 was leading that crew, and nobody had told me that I needed to escort them

5 around, I merely wanted to get a lift with them to Grbavica.

6 Q. What was the name of the person who was leading the crew from

7 Belgrade?

8 A. I don't know the name of the man. I know the name of the man who

9 received the crew and who took them around Grbavica. That's what I can

10 tell you.

11 Q. Witness, now I'm going to --

12 MR. SACHDEVA: I'd like photograph 3 -- D328 to be brought up,

13 please.

14 Q. T-41, you remember marking this photograph, don't you?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. And the area where you've marked it with a "Z", that area was

17 controlled by the VRS, wasn't it?

18 A. Yes, it was. But nobody dared access the area or let alone linger

19 there.

20 Q. If you could just please answer the question we can move quickly.

21 Now, the -- you see the mountains just above the figure -- the

22 letter "Z"? You see that hill there, sir?

23 A. Yes, I do, if you're referring to this. This here and this here,

24 if that's what you mean.

25 Q. Yes. And the hills that you've just pointed to, they are -- they

1 comprised part of Mount Trebevic, don't they?

2 A. These are practically the hilltops of Mount Trebevic which are

3 quite bare, and just beneath them the Lukavica-Pale road ran, which is the

4 road across Zlatiste that was under constant threat.

5 Q. And Mount Trebevic is higher in elevation than Debelo Brdo, is it

6 not?

7 A. It is, but Debelo Brdo is not clearly visible because of these

8 foothills of Mount Trebevic and the forest. That's the only answer I can

9 give you.

10 Q. Yes. I'm not actually asking as to the visibility. I just simply

11 want you to confirm that Mount Trebevic is higher in elevation to

12 Debelo Brdo, and you agree with that, don't you?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Now, in this --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Mr. Sachdeva. We have to take the

16 break.

17 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, what is the position with -- I'll

20 raise the matter with you at the end of the witness's evidence.

21 Mr. Sachdeva, yes.

22 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Witness T-41, just before we had break I asked you about the

24 hills, the Mount Trebevic hills, and in one of your answers you said

25 yes -- you said -- sorry, you said, "These are practically the hilltops of

1 Mount Trebevic, which are quite bare and just beneath them, the

2 Lukavica-Pale road ran, which is the road across Zlatiste that was under

3 constant threat." You remember that answer, sir?

4 A. I can't see the text on the screen, which means I can't know

5 whether I'm supposed to start or not.

6 I know that there was -- this road was under constant threat. You

7 can see the UN flag here. Fire would be opened upon this Lukavica-Pale

8 road. I know as I was using the road on several occasions --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. As I understand it, you are

10 simply being asked to confirm that you said that these are practically the

11 hilltops of Mount Trebevic and that they are quite bare and right beneath

12 this is the Lukavica-Pale road, and there was a constant threat. You did

13 say that. That's all you're being asked to do, not to go over the

14 evidence.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

17 MR. SACHDEVA:

18 Q. And that road, that was the road that you were travelling on in

19 this video that we saw just a moment ago, wasn't it?

20 A. Yes. A section of the road was filmed. I didn't film all of it.

21 Q. Yes. Now, on this photograph, the photograph is still there, I

22 would just like you to put a "T" to mark the photograph with a -- oh, yes.

23 That could be a problem.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

25 MR. SACHDEVA:

1 Q. Sir, if you could just place the letter "T" on the -- on the

2 slopes of Mount Trebevic, on the photograph, please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And on the other side, on the right-hand side, please.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And -- and if you could, sir, in the area where you had

7 written "Z", if you could just put the letters "VRS" beside it.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Thank you. Now, you said that the -- the Lukavica-Pale road was

10 fired upon from Mojmilo. You remember saying that, sir?

11 A. I don't recall saying that fire was opened upon this area from

12 Mojmilo, but that other area beneath Vrace as you go down into the valley,

13 that is where several sections of the road could be seen from Mojmilo. I

14 even brought some of the photographs along to that effect. And this was

15 certainly targeted. There were UNPROFOR bunkers and observation posts

16 there. Whenever there was fighting going on one could -- one dared not

17 move along that road. It was unsafe also for ambulances and such medical

18 vehicles. They were forced to place some tubes there for protection.

19 Q. Sir, how did you know the fire came from that direction?

20 A. Simply because a part of Grbavica -- or, rather, Vrace,

21 Gornja Petrovacka street, I know that several flats were set alight there.

22 As one passed the gate and the park towards Zlatiste, one could see that

23 position, the newly dug bunker that they used to fire from.

24 Q. So, sir, are you saying because there were ABiH positions there,

25 the fire came from that direction? Is that what you're saying?

1 A. That's what I'm saying, and I'm certain of that. I'm certain that

2 fire was opened from this spot upon Vrace, upon Gornja Petrovacka street,

3 and a part of the road from the Vrace memorial park towards Zlatiste.

4 Q. You're certain because -- because it was common knowledge, wasn't

5 it?

6 A. Not only because of that. On several occasions I was supposed to

7 go to Pale or somewhere else toward Trebevic, and traffic was stopped.

8 They had even pulled out an old damaged vehicle that had come under an

9 attack there.

10 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I tender this. Before I do that,

11 sorry.

12 Q. Sir, if you see on the left-hand side of the photograph, you'll

13 see a building with a flag. Do you see that there, sir?

14 A. Yes. Yes, I do. I see the flag.

15 Q. And that is the UNPROFOR position, isn't it?

16 A. Yes. This is the location where, as of 1993, the United Nations

17 forces were stationed at even before the trenches were dug out. Even

18 though the UN forces were there, despite that, fire was opened upon the

19 areas I indicated.

20 Q. Sir. Sir.

21 A. I even believe that this was indicated in one of the UN reports.

22 Q. Sir, please just try and answer the question as precisely as

23 possible, otherwise we are not going to finish tonight, and if there is

24 another information I would like to get from you, I will ask those

25 questions.

1 Now, I would like you to please just put the letters "UN" on top

2 of that or close to that building with the flag, please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. SACHDEVA: And, Mr. President, I tender that photograph into

6 evidence.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As P908, Your Honours.

9 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could now ask for the marked photograph of

10 Defence Exhibit 329 to be shown to the witness. And, Mr. President, may I

11 ask your leave to have the Court usher just show me the hard copy, because

12 the hard copy, it appears clearer in the hard copy.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic. No?

14 MR. SACHDEVA:

15 Q. Sir, this is the -- this is the Lukavica-Pale road, is it not?

16 A. Yes, this is the Lukavica-Pale road.

17 Q. And it's correct, firstly, isn't it, if you look closely at the

18 figures that are walking there, they are carrying rifles, aren't they?

19 A. I think they are. On that day I was going up there, and there

20 were some soldiers who were heading I don't know where. The point was

21 that we had to be very, very quiet as we were moving in order to avoid

22 being shot.

23 Q. Sir, I simply again asked if they were carrying rifles, and you

24 have confirmed that they were carrying rifles. And they -- let me ask you

25 this: They --

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I conferred with my

3 colleague. It doesn't have anything to do with what was just said now.

4 It has to do with the photograph from earlier on. We are not sure whether

5 our photograph in the condition in which it was before the Prosecutor

6 placed markings on it has been saved, or whether the markings that were

7 made during my examination and the photograph with those markings no

8 longer exists. I suppose the Prosecutor should use a different

9 photograph.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. If I may, ideally each

11 party would use separate exhibit if they were going to direct the witness

12 to mark on it. However, as a work-around we could have separate colours,

13 the Defence markings in blue, OTP markings in red, and the metadata will

14 reflect this, as well as the transcript.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very good. Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

16 MR. SACHDEVA:

17 Q. Now, sir, you said shortly before the photograph you took was

18 taken a man was killed on this road. Do you remember saying that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you said that the man was killed on the 17th of June, and I

21 understand it's 1995; is that right?

22 A. I believe that that's what I said.

23 Q. And you also said, however, that the photograph was taken on the

24 17th of June. So may I ask, did you take this photograph on the day that

25 the man died?

1 A. Yes. I took the photograph on at that day. The man was killed

2 shortly before. I didn't see that. We were told that a man had been

3 killed and we should be very cautious as we were moving along the road.

4 Q. Do you know who the person was that was killed, sir?

5 A. I don't know. I do know that from -- that he was from a

6 neighbourhood close by. The village is called Petrovic, and I know he was

7 buried somewhere there.

8 Q. And you, of course, weren't there when -- when he was killed, were

9 you?

10 A. No, I wasn't there at that moment when he was killed.

11 Q. And you said that a grenade had impacted on the concrete wall.

12 Where on the concrete wall did the grenade impact?

13 A. I don't know exactly. Roughly where the arrow is placed. It was

14 a rifle-launched grenade which normally bursts into fragments, and that's

15 what killed the man.

16 Q. You -- we really can't see any holes in the wall, can we, any

17 markings from the fragments in the wall on this photograph, can we, sir?

18 A. Well, I don't know how come you can't see them, but look. Beyond

19 this rock you see that the wall is damaged. This rifle-launched grenade

20 wouldn't leave much of a hole in the wall. It bursts into shrapnel. Of

21 perhaps even this damage on the concrete wall comes from that projectile,

22 but I did not give it much thought. I did not try and observe the wall

23 for that purpose.

24 Q. The point is, sir, that you weren't there when this man was

25 killed, so you don't -- you don't know -- you don't know, firstly, that it

1 was indeed a rifle-launched grenade, and you don't know where it came

2 from, do you, sir?

3 A. I did not observe the grenade as it was flying. I wasn't able to.

4 I was going toward Trebevic with these men, and we were cautioned that

5 we should move silently above all, as perhaps in half an hour earlier a

6 man from Petrovic had been killed there. I know that the following day

7 this person from Petrovic was buried. I did not personally observe that

8 event. I was merely cautioned by persons who were passing that way.

9 Q. So your evidence about it -- about it being a rifle-launched

10 grenade is pure speculation, isn't it, sir?

11 A. I don't know what you mean. If a person who is passing by who is

12 a soldier, I don't know what, and if he tells me that they are launching

13 rifle grenades and that they cannot be heard and that we should move

14 silently, so they do not observe us, well ...

15 Q. And are you saying, sir, that the rifle grenade came over the

16 fence in the manner in which you've drawn this arrow, sir, in that arc

17 fashion?

18 A. I don't know what the arch was. I know that the BH army positions

19 are quite close down there, and I know that if someone is observed passing

20 there that rifle grenades are launched at them.

21 Q. And you said the ABiH positions -- you said the ABiH positions are

22 quite close down there. Presumably you're saying that ABiH positions

23 were --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Several times, Your Honours, it

1 was said that they were cautioned and that they were told that they are

2 listening, the enemy side is listening whether somebody is passing by over

3 there and that they should pass silently through that area. This wasn't

4 entered in the transcript, that they were told the movement across the

5 road was heard which prompts an action, but this wasn't reflected in the

6 transcript. That they should move cautiously.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I do recall something to that effect. I can't

8 say whether it was exactly as you have just put it. Let us move on,

9 please.

10 MR. SACHDEVA:

11 Q. Sir, I just want to confirm that you -- you said that the ABiH

12 positions were quite close down there, and so I take it that the ABiH

13 positions were -- where you say the fire came from were down from this

14 road; is that correct?

15 A. The BH army positions were behind the wall down there. At

16 Trebevic, in that part, there is a plateau of sorts, and this is a

17 forested area, and given the range of a rifle grenade, this is quite close

18 and it was quite risky to pass through there.

19 Q. Sir, I'm just trying to establish that. You keep saying that the

20 ABiH positions were down there. So my question to you is that the

21 positions were -- in terms of height they were lower down from this road,

22 weren't they?

23 A. On this side, behind the fence, there is a small slope and then a

24 plateau where the positions of the BH army were.

25 Q. So they were lower than the road, weren't they?

1 A. Yes, they were lower, but not a great deal lower. The slope is

2 quite gentle there.

3 Q. And a rifle grenade is a direct fire weapon, isn't it?

4 A. I don't know that. All I know is that they launched across the

5 protective fence as soon as they hear someone passing.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I asked the

8 witness about certain features of weapons my learned friend Sachdeva

9 objected to that and on the basis of the witness not knowing anything

10 about the weapons. So now the witness should not be asked to explain what

11 a rifle-launched grenade is. I wasn't able to clarify some matters with

12 the witness which had to do with the photographs he had taken. Therefore,

13 I believe we should adhere to the same rule in this case.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might I respond?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

16 MR. SACHDEVA: The witness has repeatedly now in evidence in chief

17 and in cross-examination stated that rifle grenades were launched and --

18 and therefore I submit I'm entitled to cross-examine on that knowledge.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree.

20 MR. SACHDEVA:

21 Q. Now, Witness, if I could now move to the -- the next photograph.

22 That's D3 -- I want to show you D332.

23 Witness -- sorry, Witness, before I start asking you questions on

24 this photograph, I just want to take you back to the 17th of June, the day

25 that you took that previous photograph and the day that you said a man was

1 killed. You understand?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. And I take it that when you went to take the photograph -- well,

4 how long -- how long did you spend on that road, on the scene, when you

5 were taking the photograph?

6 A. I reached just ahead of this site by car. The men, the people who

7 were there, explained to us that we should not stay there for long, that

8 we should make sure that we make no noise and that we should try and avoid

9 this place as we are moving along the road, to the sides.

10 Q. And I take it that to take the photograph you got out of the car

11 and took the photograph; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. The car stayed further down. We practically had to scurry

13 along this stretch of the road that you can see, and then the driver in

14 the car joined us. He speeded up on this section of the road, picked us

15 up and then went on. We did not dare to reach this spot by car because

16 the engine would be heard easily, and we could not allow that to happen.

17 Q. How many cars were in this convoy or was it just one car?

18 A. There was just this one car. In those days one did not take this

19 road unless it was strictly necessary, and then one had to assume the risk

20 it involved.

21 Q. So, sir, please just answer the question if you can. From the

22 time that you had decided to go and take this photograph to the time that

23 you left that area and when you had taken the photograph, how long was

24 that?

25 A. I passed along, took out my camera, filmed -- or, rather, took

1 photographs, and it could not have taken longer than a minute or two

2 before I reached the section of the road that was safer. Not even two

3 minutes. I was taking photographs as I was walking.

4 Q. And you and the car -- you were doing all of this during the

5 period of an ABiH offensive, weren't you?

6 A. I think that the offensive began a day earlier. You see the

7 damage there. The following day I had to go to Pale and try to find a way

8 of getting through.

9 Q. And so it's correct that you did all of this during the ABiH

10 offensive, didn't you?

11 A. This happened in that period of time, but on other occasions the

12 situation would happen to be similar.

13 Q. Now, you see the photograph on your screen here, the photograph

14 that you marked. You remember this photograph. And the first question I

15 want to ask you was where exactly was this photograph taken from?

16 A. The memorial park is in fact a fort which was several levels. I

17 clambered up next to this wall, took my photograph and then went away from

18 that spot.

19 Q. And I take it the fact that you were able to clamber up onto this

20 level, this fort was controlled by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes. The fort was on the top of Vrace and was under the control

22 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

23 Q. And you would agree with me, sir, that from this level of the fort

24 there is -- there appears in this photograph, at least, to be a commanding

25 view of the city of Sarajevo, at least a part of the city of Sarajevo,

1 doesn't there?

2 A. Yes. One can see a good part of the town of Sarajevo, but it was

3 very difficult to approach the fort and there was a constant danger. One

4 exposed oneself to great risk in trying to get there.

5 Q. When you went up to the fort were you accompanied by

6 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps soldiers when you went to take this photograph?

7 A. Very close by on this side, behind there, there's a road. I don't

8 recall who it was who came with me. I climbed up to the fort on this

9 side, and I took photographs. I knew that there was no one there and I

10 wanted to have photographs for my documentation. The Sarajevo-Romanija

11 Corps did not have any soldiers there. There were no pillboxes, bunkers,

12 or anything.

13 Q. Sir, with respect, that's not really the answer to the question I

14 asked. I'm asking when you went up to the location from where you took

15 the photograph, were you accompanied by soldiers? Were you accompanied by

16 men in uniform?

17 A. I wasn't accompanied by anyone. I alone climbed up to one part of

18 the fort and took a photograph there.

19 Q. And you went there alone and I remember you telling the Court that

20 you never carried a weapon; is that correct, sir?

21 A. Yes. I never carried a weapon. I reached this spot alone.

22 Q. And were you wearing a uniform on the day you took this photograph

23 on top of the fort?

24 A. I don't recall exactly. I rarely wore my uniform. Only on

25 occasions when delegations were expected or something of the sort. I did

1 not like wearing a uniform.

2 Q. Sir, you went up to this area of the fort, without a uniform, or

3 at least you don't remember wearing a uniform, without a weapon, that was

4 under constant danger and took photographs; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Sir, you see on this photograph these square holes, the square

7 dugouts in the wall there? You see them?

8 A. Yes, I do, and I recognise them.

9 Q. And, sir, you would agree given the rectangular or the -- well,

10 the rectangular shape of these holes that these holes were not caused by

11 shell or grenade fire, were they?

12 A. Yes, that's correct. These are windows that were once part of the

13 fort. This is a memorial park which once had a plaque bearing the names

14 of people who were killed in World War II.

15 Q. Sir, isn't it correct that on occasion Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

16 soldiers would fire from these -- from this location through these holes

17 down into the city?

18 A. I never saw anyone doing that. The photograph shows that nobody

19 had been staying there. Whether somebody would come up there and shoot

20 from there, I don't know about that.

21 Q. You went to this location how many times? Was it once only, sir?

22 A. I was there for the first time sometime in 1991. The second time

23 I went there was when I took this photograph, but I used to pass by on

24 this side almost every day. I had to passing by this spot in order to get

25 from Lukavica to Grbavica or vice versa. It's an elevation on which had

1 this fort is built, and then the road ran right next to it.

2 Q. Now, you remember you also were shown a photograph, one of your

3 photographs of the -- I think it was the faculty of science and

4 mathematics in ABiH territory. You remember that photograph, sir?

5 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

6 Q. And on that photograph you indicated to the Court the dugout holes

7 that you say the ABiH would use to fire, and also you indicated the

8 markings from the return fire from the SRK forces. You remember saying

9 that?

10 A. Yes, I did say that.

11 Q. Now, let's just concentrate on the return fire. You said in

12 evidence that the return fire -- or the fire emanated from Grbavica. You

13 remember saying that?

14 A. Yes, I do remember.

15 Q. Where -- where from Grbavica did the return fire emanate?

16 A. Mostly the area of Grbavica, between the buildings. Some sort of

17 rifle ammunition or they used small arms to try to neutralise the places

18 on the building of the faculty from where shots were being fired at

19 Grbavica.

20 Q. Between which buildings in Grbavica, sir?

21 A. These were residential buildings referred to as the pavilions,

22 paviljoni, where people lived. Those were residential buildings. I

23 didn't see anyone shooting, but I know that they fired at those apertures

24 in order to neutralise the snipers.

25 Q. Sir, you didn't see that the -- where the fire came from, but I

1 take it that you know because it was a known fact. It was common

2 knowledge that fire was emanating from the SRK from those positions in

3 Grbavica; is that right?

4 A. Yes. From Grbavica, from that area where the Serb army was.

5 Q. Do you --

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, might I have one second.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MR. SACHDEVA:

9 Q. Now, I don't want to -- because I want to try and speed up the --

10 the questioning, I just want you to confirm that you remember the

11 photograph of the building of the faculty of mathematics, and you remember

12 the square-cum-oblong apertures that you spoke about. You remember what

13 they looked like, don't you?

14 A. I remember exactly what the building looked like, and you saw in

15 the photograph from the inside, holes were made in the building from which

16 snipers fired. That's how I understood your question.

17 Q. And of course you never saw these holes being made, did you?

18 A. Well, you could never see them making those holes because they

19 made the holes by night, and on the next day, in the morning, we would

20 suddenly see that snipers were firing on an area that had not been

21 protected with screens, and then we had to protect that area with screens

22 so that it wouldn't be seen from that place.

23 Q. But, sir, you don't know if the holes were made at night, do you?

24 A. I know they were made at night because, for example, on one day

25 the soldiers would count three holes, and then the next morning there'd be

1 another one or another two. You would see that there were more holes, and

2 you could see that best because the sniper would be firing from that

3 building, and we would know then that they were firing on a new area. But

4 you only had to count the holes. In the evening there would be four; in

5 the morning there would be five. That's how we knew they had made new

6 holes.

7 Q. And is that something that you yourself saw? In other words, you

8 spent one day and you saw four holes and the next day you saw five, or was

9 that communicated to you by soldiers?

10 A. I was there one day and I know there were four holes, and when I

11 went down they warned me and I counted again and I found there were two

12 new holes there.

13 Q. Now, you earlier gave evidence about Nedzarici. You remember

14 that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. I take it you know the area well given your -- given your role in

17 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and your excursions throughout the front

18 lines; is that right?

19 A. Yes. I knew those lines quite well. Only some time has elapsed,

20 so I need to recall. I need to have my memory jogged.

21 Q. And I take it that you also know that there was a building or

22 should I say a complex known as the school for blind children in

23 Nedzarici?

24 A. I know that building was there. I hadn't gone there often before

25 the war. When I went there during the war, nobody pointed out that

1 building to me, but I was passing by. I saw an interesting scene of

2 ruined building. Somebody told me an elderly man was living there in the

3 basement, and then I took that photograph.

4 Q. Yes. I'm not talking about the photograph concerning the elderly

5 man.

6 When you say, with respect to the school for blind children, when

7 you say you hadn't gone there often during the war, did you visit the

8 school for blind children during the war?

9 A. I didn't see that school because I wasn't paying attention to

10 that. I wasn't thinking about it.

11 Q. But you know, don't you, sir, that the school for blind children

12 was under control of the VRS, or the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

13 A. I assume it was, but I didn't think about it. I didn't go into

14 that school. I know more or less where it is, but I don't know much about

15 it.

16 Q. Now, sir, I want to show you --

17 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I want to play a -- I want to show

18 you a still -- show the Court a still from a clip. It will be on e-court.

19 Q. Sir, on your screen you see a building?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. And that is -- that is one of the buildings of the school for

22 blind children in Nedzarici, is it not?

23 A. I can't be sure. I know there were some school buildings there.

24 I didn't pay attention to that building in the war. I may have passed by

25 it, but there were many similar buildings in Sarajevo, many schools, so I

1 didn't really -- it didn't really register that that was that building.

2 Q. But do you accept that -- you accept -- you accept the possibility

3 that this indeed is a building from the school for the blind children,

4 don't you?

5 A. I don't know, because I never entered that building. I have

6 passed through Nedzarici. There are many ruined buildings there. Whether

7 this is the building, I don't know.

8 Q. In any case I want to draw your attention to the right-hand side

9 of the building. If you look at the right-hand side of the building, you

10 will see the side facade that is partly covered in the photograph by some

11 trees. Do you see that there?

12 A. Yes, yes, you can see something black there.

13 Q. Let's just be clear. On the right-hand side of the building

14 you'll see the right-hand facade which is a grey, a greyish colour of the

15 building, and you'll see that it's partly obscured by -- at least obscured

16 on the photograph by some trees. That's the side I'm drawing your

17 attention to. Are we clear, sir?

18 A. Yes. And I observe between the branches something black on the

19 facade.

20 Q. Yes. And I'm just wondering if the -- if the -- if the clip can

21 be scrolled so we can see the top part of the building. Is that possible?

22 Very well.

23 Sir, you spoke about these black -- the black marks on the facade.

24 You will see at the middle of the -- you will agree with me in the

25 middle you will see three of those black marks; is that right?

1 A. Yes. You can see something. It's not very clear, but you can see

2 something, yes.

3 Q. And then if you go -- if you cast your eyes upwards from those

4 three black marks, you will see at the very top a beginning of another

5 similar black mark; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. You can see something. I don't know whether it's leaves,

7 but there is a mark. It's either a mark on the facade or a branch. In

8 any case, there's something there, yes.

9 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that these -- these marks that we're

10 speaking about are holes, firstly.

11 A. Yes, they might be, but you can't see it really clearly.

12 Q. And I also suggest to you, sir, that the apertures that you were

13 speaking about with respect to the faculty of mathematics, that these

14 holes are similarly apertures in that building. What do you say to that?

15 A. It could be, but these holes are much bigger, and you can't see it

16 clearly. If you compare this with those holes, I don't exclude the

17 possibility, but this is quite different. This is something that's much

18 bigger. No sniper would come and stand in a big hole, 2 by 2, and fire

19 from there. You can't see very well. I can't really confirm that this is

20 it.

21 Q. Sir, I have --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, twice the witness

24 has said something has been broken open. He said twice something has been

25 broken open when talking about this. These words are quite clear.

1 Something has been broken open. He said it twice and not once has it

2 entered the record.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we have the same problem.

4 Witness, would you just repeat what you said.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This here that you can see on the

6 photograph, I said that something had been wrecked or torn open, as if

7 some kind of detonation had been there. I don't know how to explain it.

8 Destroyed, ruined. That's what we say.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

10 MR. SACHDEVA:

11 Q. Sir, leaving aside -- leaving aside whether snipers could use

12 those apertures or those holes, you accept the possibility, do you not,

13 that these are man-made holes in the -- in that facade of the building?

14 You accept that possibility, don't you?

15 A. Well, I don't know. It's hard to accept because it's not a good

16 photograph. It might have been an explosion or something. It's really

17 unclear. I never saw this building. There are lots of school buildings

18 there and they all look similar. I don't know the exact location of this

19 building. It could have been anything, as they say, but a man-made hole

20 would be round, and this looks like some sort of smear to me.

21 Q. Sir, the holes on the -- the apertures that you described and

22 showed the Court on the faculty of mathematics were not round, were they,

23 sir?

24 A. Not all of them, because when they were digging the hole you could

25 see that part of the facade had been pushed out. It depends on what the

1 facade was like. Those holes were much smaller, and you can see that they

2 were dug in a kind of regular pattern. But here I can't say this about

3 these holes on this photograph. I simply don't see it.

4 Q. Sir -- sir, none of those holes in the faculty of mathematics, the

5 apertures that you spoke about, were round, were they?

6 A. That's correct, yeah.

7 Q. And these holes, I appreciate that the photograph is slightly

8 blurred, these holes are not round, are they?

9 A. No, they're not. They have an irregular shape. I don't know what

10 it is.

11 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this clip into

12 evidence.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.

14 Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I must object. I'm not

16 objecting, actually, but I have to say something. This photograph has

17 been shown here for the first time, and it has not been shown to any

18 witness so far. The Prosecution claimed that shots were fired from the

19 roof, from the top, and now we suddenly have this photograph which

20 completely changes the line of fire for the incident we dealt with so

21 extensively. I don't object to its being admitted, but -- I'm not

22 objecting, but I do wish to mention this.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

24 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'd like to respond. In our

25 submission it does not change the Prosecution's theory, and in fact in our

1 submission it bolsters it, because I'm drawing attention to the mark at

2 the very top of the roof. That's -- that's the reason why I'm tendering

3 this -- this still.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, I said we would admit it.

5 THE REGISTRAR: As P909, Your Honours.

6 MR. SACHDEVA:

7 Q. Now, sir, you clearly -- clearly -- you clearly know the

8 Pale-Lukavica Road quite well, don't you?

9 A. Yes. I got to know it quite well during the war. That's all I

10 can say.

11 Q. And you would agree with me that on certain sections of that road

12 there were positions where one could have a commanding view of the city of

13 Sarajevo. Isn't that right?

14 A. I didn't look to see that. I didn't think about it. It's

15 possible. I was passing through that area, and I didn't, quite simply,

16 pay attention to that. I didn't think about it.

17 Q. When you, as you say, were in the command of the SRK, when you

18 went about your business did you -- firstly, did you visit any SRK

19 positions?

20 A. Yes. You saw the buildings that I entered that we showed at the

21 beginning. Depending on the events that had taken place, that's where I

22 went, to those places.

23 Q. Did you visit any positions on Mount Trebevic?

24 A. I passed along that road, but I never entered that position. I

25 never stood there. I never stopped there. I saw there were soldiers

1 there, but I didn't go in and look around. There was no need.

2 Q. Sir, while you were driving along that road you saw that there

3 were SRK soldiers along at that road; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. I saw soldiers passing by.

5 Q. I want to now show you another clip. It's a ...

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. SACHDEVA:

8 Q. Now, sir, since you've travelled that road frequently in your time

9 with the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, you would agree that this position that

10 we saw here was -- was along that road, wasn't it? Somewhere along that

11 road where one had a view of the city?

12 A. Possibly. I can't be a hundred per cent certain. Probably, but I

13 don't know. I never stood in that spot, saw the town like that. I was

14 mainly passing by. And who was there exactly I wouldn't know.

15 Q. Well, I'm not suggesting that you yourself went to that position,

16 but it's -- you would agree that it's -- it's most likely a position from

17 the Lukavica-Pale road. Isn't that right?

18 A. That's possible, but I can't be a hundred per cent certain.

19 Q. And you know that that road and if it is indeed that position that

20 I suggested to you, that would have been controlled by the

21 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. Isn't that right?

22 A. Probably. I don't know. It's possible, but I'm telling you I'm

23 not a hundred per cent certain that that's it. I can't really recognise

24 what part of town this is although I know Sarajevo quite well.

25 Q. Sir. Sir, please just listen to the question very carefully. I'm

1 asking you that if -- if we take it as this is the position that I'm

2 suggesting to you on the Trebevic -- on the Lukavica-Pale road, then that

3 position would have been controlled by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. Is

4 that correct?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the same question

7 is being asked for the third time. The witness has already replied twice,

8 and now the same question is being put again. I won't quote the witness's

9 response, but now we're hearing the same question for the third time.

10 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, it's not at all the same question,

11 but I can just ask -- I'll ask it another way that will be less

12 complicated.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ask it -- ask it tomorrow. We're going to take

14 the break now.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th

17 day of July, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.

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