1 Wednesday, 25 July 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have two decisions to give.
6 The first one relates to the request by the Defence for the
7 admission of 151 documents intended for use in the testimony of witness --
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: For witness T-35, Snezana Marinkovic Jekic.
10 Among these documents, 62 were not translated at all and 14 only partially
11 translated. In the hearing of the 19th of July, the parties made
12 submissions on the admission of these documents. The Chamber, having
13 considered the list of 151 documents, does not admit the following
14 documents: 1D, 2D, 4D, 5D, 7D, 10D, 19D, 34D, 43D, 44D, 101D, and 135D.
15 Additionally, the Chamber will not admit the 14 documents which
16 are only partially translated, and those are numbers 165D to 167D, 170D,
17 171D, 173D to 178D, 186D, 195D, and 196D.
18 Also it will not admit the 62 documents which are not translated
19 at all from number 224D onwards until a complete translation is provided,
20 at which time the Chamber will evaluate the relevance and probative value
21 of these documents so as to determine their admissibility.
22 The remaining documents are admitted.
23 That's the first decision.
24 The second decision relates to a motion filed by the Defence on
25 the 20th of July for the admission into evidence of three witnesses. I
1 should say, rather, three witness statements pursuant to Rule 92 bis. The
2 Defence requested protective measures for one of the three witnesses. On
3 24th July, the Prosecution informed the Court that it did not object
4 either to the admission into evidence of the three witness statements or
5 the requested protective measures.
6 The Chamber has reviewed the statements of Witnesses T-20, T-40,
7 and T-44. The statements meet the requirements of Rule 92 bis. There is
8 no need for the witnesses to be called for cross-examination. The
9 statements are admitted upon fulfilment of the certification procedure set
10 out in Rule 92 bis B.
11 The Defence requested the protective measures of pseudonym and
12 image distortion for Witness T-20. In light of the decision on admission
13 of the statements, the protective measure of image distortion will not be
14 necessary. The protective measure of pseudonym will be granted and the
15 statement of Witness T-20 is admitted, under seal.
16 Those are the two decisions, and we may now continue with the
17 hearing of evidence by calling the next witness.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
20 Make the declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: WITNESS T-60
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please sit.
1 You may begin, Mr. Tapuskovic.
2 Examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
4 Thank you.
5 This is a protected witness. Has all the three forms of
6 protective measures. Could he be shown document DD00-3987 in order that
7 he may confirm that the document contains his first and last names.
8 Q. Is that your first and last name?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can that document be admitted
12 into evidence, under seal.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we move into
15 private session now, please, for some details concerning the witness's
16 personal background and some other matters the witness will say at the
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 8785-8791 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation].
25 Q. So could you tell us something -- could you tell us whether you
1 were an eye-witness of anything that had to do with the way those
2 hand-grenades were used in the area of responsibility controlled by the BH
4 A. I often saw the hand-grenades manufactured by me and my colleague
5 being thrown into abandoned Serb homes in order to render those homes
6 inhabitable. I often saw boys do that, 14-, 15-year-old boys, not older
7 than that.
8 Q. Thank you. And when you say that, you are talking about the
9 whole period, from 1992 until the end of the war. You would see that
10 occasionally, yes or no?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you please tell us as you went to work, because from
13 Vojnicko Polje to Pofalici you have to move towards the city centre, is
14 that not so? You actually go towards the city centre, towards the
15 Miljacka as you move in that direction. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How many kilometres would that be in one direction? What did you
19 A. A bit more than four kilometres one way.
20 Q. In all those years - I have to dwell on this - so in all those
21 years, I'm asking you to focus on just the most important things related
22 to what I'm going to ask you about. Did you ever notice any heavy weapons
23 in the area of responsibility of the 1st Corps of the army of Bosnia and
25 A. Yes. Every day the artillery position at Alipasino Polje, which
1 borders with Vojnicko Polje, my neighbourhood, would fire on Serb
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Sachdeva.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just to obtain a time-period, is the
7 witness saying every day from 1992 to 1995 or ...
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, what time-period do you have in mind,
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 1992 until 1995.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, but -- the complaint was that you said every
12 day from 1992 to 1995, and I wish to find out whether you could be more
13 specific, or do you mean literally every day from 1992 to 1995?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not every day, but very often.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was about to
18 clear this up. That's precisely what I wanted to ascertain, whether the
19 witness could tell us something about that.
20 Q. First of all, if you say that, the way you just put it, did this
21 fire that came from Alipasino Polje, was there any response to it from the
22 Republika Srpska army positions?
23 A. The Republika Srpska army responded only when those attacks of the
24 BH army would get very frequent and incessant.
25 Q. But could you tell me, was there a period when there was no fire
1 or perhaps there was fire, I don't want to put things in your mouth, that
2 the Republika Srpska army did not fire at all from its heavy weapons?
3 A. The Republika Srpska army weapons stopped firing sometime in 1994,
4 and they remained silent until the very end of 1994. And then in 1995,
5 when the BH army really launched those frequent attacks from all positions
6 within the city of Sarajevo, in 1995, the Serb artillery started
7 responding to those attacks.
8 Q. Thank you. So in 1995, in this time-period that you just
9 described, you were in Sarajevo, you were able to hear or to see or just
10 to hear or just to see, you will explain that if anyone wants you to, this
11 fire, and you felt it, just as you were able to hear, see, and feel the
12 response of the Republika Srpska army?
13 A. Yes. Those activities were particularly intensified in this area
14 where I lived. From Alipasino Polje the fire doubled in volume in
15 relation to the previous year.
16 Q. And were there any cases when we're talking about this fire that
17 was opened from Alipasino Polje, how far is Vojnicko Polje from Alipasino
19 A. Vojnicko Polje is 100 metres from Alipasino Polje, just the road
20 leading to Lukavica divides the two. So very often, as they fired over
21 the buildings where I lived, they would hit those buildings where I lived,
22 the Federation buildings. So that many apartments, and my apartment for
23 one, were damaged more from the side where BH army had its positions than
24 from the side where the Serb army had its positions.
25 Q. This part of the apartment that was hit was facing which
2 A. My apartment was facing both Serb positions and the Federation.
3 Q. Thank you. I will be showing you a photograph later.
4 But I'm interested in one other aspect of this and then we will
5 not be dealing with it anymore. When you went into town at the time when
6 you didn't work, did you go into town at the times when you didn't work
7 and why? When I say "town," I mean downtown, the centre of the city that
8 was controlled by the BH army.
9 A. I went into town to see my doctor, as I was on sick-leave. I
10 could see and I assert that because I was able to see that and I saw that,
11 that every day the cannon out of the general area where the hospital was
12 fired upon the Serb positions, and mostly so on the neighbourhood of
14 Q. You say "every day." Can you tell us how often you passed through
15 that area, if you can?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
17 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just for the record, I'd like to
18 know which hospital. I assume counsel is going to get to that. Which
19 hospital the witness is talking about, and in my submission, there was
20 no -- there was no mention of this evidence in the 65 ter summary and I
21 understand that the witness was speaking about the area he lived in and
22 the area he worked in. I understand the ruling that Your Honours have
23 given that it is supposed to be a summary. However, this evidence is --
24 is important in terms of my preparation for cross-examination, I would
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me explain
4 He lived in that town, and to go to work he would go through the
5 centre of town. Of course in one's lifetime there are several stages, a
6 person falls ill and then of course the summary does state --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... Go ahead.
8 You say the summary does state.
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The summary talks about this
10 fact, that he lived in Sarajevo in the BH army-controlled area of the
11 town, and that he can testify to all the matters he witnessed throughout
12 the war. What else can I put there? Unless I was required to state in
13 detail all the experiences he had and all the sufferings he felt.
14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] But we still don't know what
15 hospital it is, to answer to the question of the Prosecutor.
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let him answer that question and then you may
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Should I put the question to him?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Tell us what hospital this was.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the military hospital in
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. How many times did you yourself, Witness, by either hearing or
25 seeing? Let me not put words into your mouth.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
2 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I apologise for pursuing this. But
3 if I understand it, the military hospital, at least in this case, evidence
4 has been lead that the military hospital is indeed the State Hospital in
5 Sarajevo. Perhaps that can be clarified. And if indeed that is the case,
6 then the Prosecution has led evidence that the State Hospital was targeted
7 by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and this evidence-- this potential evidence
8 now from this witness is, in my submission, important or at least requires
9 more preparation on my part for cross-examination. It is a significant
10 issue, I would submit and this was not mentioned in the 65 ter summary.
11 And this is given the understanding of Your Honour's ruling,
12 Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: So are you not in a position then to -- to
14 question the witness about the targeting of the hospital by the
15 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
16 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I can, of course. However it may be
17 that I might -- I might have to add some exhibits that I had not
18 anticipated for my cross and if that is the case, I would ask that --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, when we come to that, if -- you will have,
20 I believe, the benefit of the break, so you may be deprived of coffee and
21 croissant, but all in the interests of justice.
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.
24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. In this slight break we had, I noticed omitting something.
1 You said that you observed that the fire coming out of town was
2 responded to from the positions held by the Serb army. Your neighbours,
3 you and all the people living around you, how did they experience, how did
4 they take in all these events, if you can tell us something about it?
5 A. All the citizens took this -- it was very hard upon them. But so
6 it was for all the sides. The Serb population had particular difficulties
7 taking this in.
8 Q. You say the Serb population. Which Serb population? The Serbs
9 who lived in the area where you weren't present throughout the war, or the
10 Serb population that happened to be in the areas controlled by the 1st
11 Corps of the BH army?
12 A. When I said the Serb population, I meant the Serb population
13 present in the Federation, because those are the ones I know something
15 Q. I had not ask you about any possible victims on the Serb sides.
16 Let me ask you this: As a result of all the fighting and fire in
17 Sarajevo, were there casualties, and primarily I mean civilian casualties.
18 A. It is only natural that when there's a war on, there are victims
19 and there were victims on the Federation side too.
20 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this, briefly, please: Did you witness
21 the fire being opened from that cannon in the vicinity of the hospital?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You've already told us in what direction the cannon fired, but can
24 you please repeat that?
25 A. It fired upon the neighbourhood of Vraca.
1 Q. In those situations when you were able to observe this, did the
2 Serb side respond to this fire?
3 A. There was a response, only in such situations when heavy artillery
4 fired upon the Serb positions.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, please.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm sorry, but I'd like to know the
7 time-frame, when was this observed, what did he see. I can ask this in
8 cross, but it would assist me in my preparation if these answers are
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 What time-frame is this, Witness?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military hospital formerly, now
13 the State Hospital, is less than one kilometre away from my factory. You
14 can see the general perimeter and the hospital buildings from there.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: What I want to find out is, following upon the
16 submission the Prosecutor, was when did this occur, what time.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean the year or in -- during
18 the way, which part of the day?
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, be as specific as you can.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I went on sick-leave in
21 mid-1994, every seven days I would go to my doctors for a checkup. On my
22 way there, I had to pass by the military hospital. Almost every day the
23 cannon positioned in the perimeter of the hospital fired. I even saw fire
24 being opened upon Serb positions as I was going past the hospital. It
25 happened in day-time. It may have been 10.00 or 11.00 a.m. when I was on
1 my way to the doctors.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You mentioned the year 1994. You said something about the events
5 of that year. But was the situation the same in 1995?
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you something else now. While you were
8 working, before you went on sick-leave, were you ever in a position
9 enabling you to be absent from work, because, as you said yourself, you
10 were quite exhausted, and you had to work 12 hours a day.
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we move into
14 private session for a moment.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness mentioned the place
17 where he worked. Can that part of the transcript be redacted?
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In addition to what you've already told us, can you tell us what
6 sort of treatment were you meted out during the time you worked there.
7 A. While I started working there in 1992, both physical and
8 psychological mistreatment began. What sort of mistreatment or abuse was
9 this. Quite often I would be intercepted on my way home and taken to the
10 places where civilians or victims were placed, that they had treated or
11 done something with during the day.
12 Q. You have to go through this briefly, please. Can you tell us the
13 most radical forms of it, what was it that you experienced most often, and
14 then you can perhaps give us an example of it.
15 A. I was taken away during my work there on 11 occasions. The most
16 drastic example occurred in early November of 1992, when I was stopped at
17 2000 p.m. as I was on my way home. I was placed in a black van and taken
18 somewhere. It was night-time and it was dark. I was thrown out of the
19 van and taken to a ditch or a pit where a massacre had been committed
20 during the day. I will not exaggerate if I say that more than 20
21 mutilated maimed bodies were there. I can't even express that in words,
22 but this is something that leaves me sleepless at night. I saw a child
23 whose head had been cut off and placed on his mother's chest. His hands
24 had been cut off and -- or his arms had been cut off and placed on the
25 child's chest in the form of a cross. They through me into that pit where
1 I lost consciousness, I fainted. I don't know how long I was in there,
2 but when I came to, they placed me in that van again, drove me some 200
3 metres further down from that place --
4 Q. Right. Let us not dwell on this point any longer.
5 Can you tell us whether they told you why this was being done to
7 A. They told me, swearing my Serb mother, You see what fate will
8 befall you unless you go to work and work even harder.
9 Q. You said that this happened 11 times. When did this happen for
10 the last time, if you can? Let us just hear the date without going into
12 A. The last time it happened it was in August of 1994, when, again, I
13 was placed in a black van where there were four persons who had been tied
14 up. I was taken somewhere in the territory of Pofalici, and before my
15 very eyes all of the four people were shot to death. They threatened me
16 that the same thing would happen to me the following day unless I went to
18 Q. But you were on sick-leave at that time.
19 A. Yes, I was on sick-leave.
20 Q. I would like to show you a document now.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's DD00-1861. So could we
22 look at it, and -- the photograph and then I'm done.
23 Q. Could you please read what this is, slowly as you do, from the top
24 to the bottom. There's not too much information here. Could you please
25 read it. But read it aloud, please. Could you just read the heading,
1 what it says in the middle of the document and the date of the document.
2 A. You mean here?
3 Q. Yes, yes. Do read what is in this document the way I just
4 instructed you. Read it out loud.
5 A. "The republic Bosnia-Herzegovina staff of the supreme command of
6 the armed forces security administration, defence of the republic,
7 military secret, strictly confidential, copy number -- to be returned" --
8 well, I can't really read this because of the stamp.
9 Q. Well, it doesn't really matter.
10 A. "Special report."
11 Q. Do you see the date down there at the bottom?
12 A. The date is the 17th of November, 1993.
13 Q. Let us now look at just one excerpt, whether this corresponds to
14 what you just described to us. That's at page four. It's also page four
15 in the English version.
16 And when you have that in front of you, in order to save some
17 time, could you please start reading from where it says -- it's actually
18 page 5 in the B/C/S version and 4 in the English version. That's first
19 paragraph, and then you can see here it is about.
20 A. "This concerns crimes against humanity and international law,
21 Article 142 of the penal code, perpetrated against the civilian
22 population, murders committed in a particularly vicious manner, torture
23 and inflicting great suffering, given that most of the crimes were
24 according to the information obtained so far committed against Serbs, they
25 even take on elements of genocide."
1 Q. Could we now look at the last page to see who signed this, because
2 it is a Federation document dated 1993. If you look at the bottom, you
3 will see what it says there.
4 A. It was signed by Jusuf Jasarevic, chief.
5 Q. Does that correspond to what you just told us and I didn't want
6 you to tell us everything, all the other things. Does that correspond,
7 this the cruelty the viciousness, does this tally with what you told us
8 about this pit that you were thrown in? So does that tally with your
9 account, in terms of torture, murder, viciousness which they themselves
10 state in their report?
11 A. Well, it's -- it really does. It's as if I wrote it.
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document be admitted
13 as a Defence exhibit. It's DD00-1861.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, lest there should be
16 any misunderstandings, you gave us your decision a little while ago --
17 just a moment, please.
18 Yes, it was not admitted when it was on the list that you had in
19 front of you, but I'm now tendering it. You gave us your decision, and
20 according to the information that I have, it has not been admitted but
21 after this evidence of -- by an eye-witness who told us what he had been
22 through, I tender it into evidence. Of course, Mr. Sachdeva can state his
23 views and we can hear what he has to say.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I object to the admission of this
1 document. The witness has given evidence concerning one allegation, one
2 incident and this document, as I understand it, is nine pages long. So
3 the question as to whether it tallies with this document, frankly in my
4 submission, is -- does not get us anywhere and therefore I can't see how
5 tendering this complete document, this report of nine pages through this
6 witness on the basis of one incident that the witness has spoken about
7 merits the admission of this document.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: But we could admit it in relation to that one
10 MR. SACHDEVA: Perhaps if the document refers to the incident the
11 witness speaks about. But Mr. Tapuskovic pointed the witness to a
12 particular paragraph that was, in my submission, general. It spoke about
13 allegations of genocide and torture, and accentuated the sufferings of
14 Serbs but there is no relation to the specific incident that the witness
15 spoke about.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't want to
18 bother you. I didn't want to bother you, because God save us from this
19 witness telling us all those things that he had been through. I didn't
20 want to put you in that situation, but on page 5 or 6 of this very same
21 document I didn't want to force him to read that out. That's on page 7 in
22 the English version where it says that some commanders forced their own
23 people, that's according to the report, to-- they would -- he is the
24 commander but he would force his subordinate, in order to get him involved
25 in that, to commit such murders. I could read five more paragraphs.
1 That's all in this document. But I don't want to bother you with this. I
2 just gave you an example, and it is stated here that this was done solely
3 for retaliation. I don't know, Your Honours, whether you admitted this
4 document through Snezana Marinkovic Jekic perhaps, but this does
5 constitute grounds for the admission of this document into evidence.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, again for the last time.
7 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, perhaps indeed if this document has
8 been admitted in the earlier ruling of the Chamber then this discussion
9 is -- is redundant. However, Mr. Tapuskovic now mentions another example
10 and again I don't see the reference to the evidence the witness has
11 given. It is all in very general terms. The witness has not made any
12 mention of commanders or who in fact took him in the van. So I can't see
13 the relation between the witness's evidence and the specific examples
14 Mr. Tapuskovic refers to. And therefore I persist in my objection.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm checking with the clerk to see whether we
17 have admitted it or have not admitted it.
18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. We'll reserve our ruling on this
20 until we have carried out the check.
21 Continue, Mr. Tapuskovic.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will -- in light of
23 Mr. Sachdeva' intervention I will have to ask you the following question.
24 I didn't mean to ask you that.
25 Q. What did you see on one occasion on the door of an orthodox
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
3 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm sorry for the interruption of my learned
4 counsel, but my case manager has informed me that the document is 131D,
5 Defence Exhibit 131 and I understand from the ruling that -- Your Honour's
6 ruling that it has indeed been admitted. Perhaps the Defence could check
7 that, but that's what -- that's the information I have from my case
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: If indeed it is 131D, then it has been admitted
10 because it is not included in the list of those not admitted.
11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since this document
12 discusses precisely the kind of things that this witness talked about and
13 the kind of cruelty, I didn't want to dwell on it, but in light of
14 Sachdeva's intervention, I really have to.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why.
16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Please, what did you see -- precisely to testify to one thing that
18 is very important and relevant for the lives of the people. I want to ask
19 you were only Serbs the ones who suffered in this way or were killed in
20 this way.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... You are not
22 to proceed until I have made up my mind as to whether I'm going to allow
23 to you ask the question. You don't run these proceedings.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I know that. I don't know
1 if there's anyone who has more respect for you than --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, there is no need to ask the
3 witness any further questions. And the document, it has been admitted.
4 We can read it.
5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, well, you -- I
6 assure you that I have utmost respect for you and I'm not asking anything
7 out of any kind of spite. This witness is testifying about some things
8 that very important for your final deliberations. I am not in a position
9 to ask any further questions. I asked him, and I believe that I can ask
10 him to tell us about something that he saw at one place at the orthodox
11 church in the very heart of Sarajevo. I can ask him that, and I think
12 that you should allow me to do so. If you disallow it, then of course I
13 will not ask the question and I am absolutely -- I know that you run the
14 proceedings, and I never doubted that in any way, and I always abided by
15 your rulings.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: The answer is no.
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Okay. Let us now deal with this place where you lived. This will
21 be very relevant, and the Trial Chamber really needs to look at a document
22 65 ter 2862. But we have to move into private session because we will be
23 talking about the witness's apartment and we will be dealing it until the
24 end of his testimony.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 8811-8822 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
2 MR. SACHDEVA: And perhaps I could ask the court officer to bring
3 up the D352 under seal and not for it to be broadcast, so I can try and do
4 this in open session. Thank you.
5 Q. T-60, I'm just waiting for the photograph that you marked to be
6 brought up, and without mentioning where you lived I just wanted to ask a
7 clarification question to start with.
8 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm waiting for the photograph.
9 Q. Now, Witness, as I understand it, your evidence is that in
10 buildings 1 or the set of buildings in 1, 2 and 3, your evidence is that
11 no civilians lived there throughout the conflict; is that right?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. And, of course, the building where you lived, there were
14 civilians; is that right?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. And one of the questions from counsel for the Defence asked you --
17 and I'm -- part of the question is: I'm asking you whether in the
18 building where you lived and in the building to the left of number 1, were
19 there any civilians there, and your answer was yes.
20 And I'd just like you to circle the building left of number 1.
21 That's at least how the answer is transcribed -- the question is
22 transcribed, rather.
23 A. [Marks].
24 Q. And so in that building, civilians lived there throughout the
25 conflict; is that correct?
1 A. The buildings that I circled, before I made this circle right now,
2 I said that there were no civilians.
3 Q. The blue circle, sir, is where civilians lived throughout the
4 conflict, is that right, and if it is, can you put the number 6 there,
6 A. No, that -- you wanted me to circle the building to the left of
7 number 1. I did so. But I didn't say that there were civilians there. I
8 circled it first with a red pen, indicating that there were no civilians
10 Q. Well, then, we have a slight confusion because I'm trying to
11 establish which other building apart from the building you lived in you
12 say civilians lived. And the question -- I'll repeat the full question
13 from counsel.
14 "Then you didn't understand my question. You told us what you had
15 to tell us concerning the buildings circled 1, 2, and 3. Your building is
16 behind item 2 and then there were other buildings around. I'm asking you
17 whether in the building where you lived and in the building to the left of
18 number 1, were there any civilians living there."
19 And you answered yes.
20 So, Witness T-60, I'm trying to establish --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see Mr. Tapuskovic on his feet.
22 Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's the whole
24 confusion. To the left of the building marked with 1 there's no
25 building. There are no buildings to the left of the building marked with
1 1, so I can't understand how the question can refer to an area to the left
2 of the building marked with number 1.
3 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm reading verbatim from counsel's
4 question. And that's why -- that's indeed why I started off with this
5 question because I myself don't see the buildings that witness or counsel
6 speaks about.
7 If one looks at page 38, line 13 to 18, therein lies the question
8 and therein lies the confusion.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Line what? Which line on page 38?
10 MR. SACHDEVA: It's page 38 and it's line 13 to 18 and it's the
11 last component of the question which reads: "I'm asking whether you in the
12 building where you lived and in the building to the left of number 1 were
13 there any civilians there," and the answer was yes.
14 So I'm trying to establish which building the witness speaks
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: But he has marked a building in blue.
17 MR. SACHDEVA: And so I did -- I assume then that was the
18 building. However, the witness has now said that no civilians lived
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic.
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this can only be an
22 error in translation and nothing else because witness marked this building
23 with number 1 and I asked him to the left of his building, the building
24 where he lived. And then he gave his explanation. If we are now going to
25 be sticking to something that I'm sure was a lapse, because I know for a
1 fact that I asked him about the building to the left of where he lived
2 after he had already marked the building with another building with number
3 1, so this kind of examination is really is objectionable. This could be
4 nothing else but a rather.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the mark signifying the building where he
7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It's marked with the letter K and
8 I asked him to the left of that building.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, when you were asked to mark the building
11 to the left of the building where you lived, or asked about that building,
12 what building did you have in mind? Can you show us on the -- on this
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the left of the building where I
15 live, I was asked to circle it and I circled this row of buildings where
16 there were no civilians. To the left of my building, behind number 1, the
17 second row of buildings, that's where the civilians were. I don't know
18 why I was asked to circle the building to the left of number 1, which I
19 did. I don't know what the purpose was that -- was of that, since this
20 building had already been circled in red.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you understand now, Mr. Sachdeva?
23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I do now, and just to allay the
24 concerns of counsel I simply repeated what was transcribed and that's why
25 I myself had confusion so there was nothing untoward in my seeking
1 clarification. But it is now understand now. Thank you, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Perhaps we should then delete the blue circle
3 which marks a building, since it evidently doesn't represent what was
5 MR. SACHDEVA:
6 Q. Now, Witness T-60, you said earlier today that in the area marked
7 1, 2, and 3 you -- throughout the time you lived in that area, you never
8 ventured -- you never ventured in the area, in the vicinity of 1, 2, and
9 3. Is that right?
10 A. I never ventured to building number 3. Now, as for building
11 number 2, it's opposite my building. It's maybe 20 metres away from my
12 building. And the building to the left of my building on the other side
13 of the road leading to Alipasino Polje, I went there every day, and I was
14 able to observe what was happening.
15 Q. So then when Mr. Tapuskovic asked you if you went into the area in
16 the vicinity of 1, 2 and 3, it's not totally correct. You did in fact
17 venture into the area in front of the buildings marked with 1 and 2. Is
18 that right?
19 A. Well, I had to. I had to pass through --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he said to the left
22 of his building, towards the building to the left of his building, not
23 towards building marked with 1. You can ask him again. He went behind
24 this towards this other building. You can ask him again. It was quite
25 clearly stated. He never said that he went in the area of front of
1 building 1 but he did say that he was walking or going in the other -- on
2 the other side. That is the essence of what he said and it is actually
3 recorded here, that he moved behind the building marked with number 1 just
4 as he was able to move in front of his building that is marked with letter
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.
7 MR. SACHDEVA:
8 Q. Witness, let me ask you this: Concentrate on the buildings marked
9 1, 2, and 3. And on the photograph you will see in front of each of those
10 buildings, in other words, towards the bottom of the photograph there are
11 open areas. You see that, sir, in 1, 2, and 3?
12 A. Yes, I can see it.
13 Q. And what I'm asking you is, that during the conflict, in other
14 words 1992 to 1995, did you ever venture in those areas, in front of those
15 buildings, towards the bottom of the photograph?
16 A. No. The open area that can you see, that's where those communal
17 garages were and they were always full of troops. This area that you can
18 see in front of number 2 and number 1, that's the communal garages.
19 Q. But, of course, you never saw that, did you, because you never
20 went there.
21 A. I saw building 2 from the side that's facing my building, because,
22 as I said, it is maybe about 20 metres. You can talk to each other.
23 People could talk to each other if they stood on the balconies and as for
24 building number 1, that -- there where this open area is, this is not
25 where I went. I didn't go there.
1 Q. Sir, let me try -- I'm sorry to persist on this, because I'm not
2 understanding your evidence.
3 If we look at 1, 2, and 3 and we look at the areas -- in other
4 words the areas on the other side towards the bottom of the photograph,
5 the open areas in front of the complex number 1, in front of complex
6 number 2 and in front of complex number 3, the areas towards the bottom of
7 the photograph, I understand that you never visited that area during the
8 conflict. Is that right?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And so my question is: If you did not go to those areas, you did
11 not see the troops that you spoke about, did you?
12 A. No, that's not correct. From my building, I had to go out, if you
13 look at this place where the letter K is, that's a small alley dividing
14 those two buildings. That's my street. I had to get out here where I am
15 marking with my pen to continue on towards the sky-scrapers at Alipasino
16 Polje. I had to go every day down that route as I went to work and back
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just point the small alley-way. The small alley
19 dividing the buildings, could you just identify that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Indicates].
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see, yes.
22 MR. SACHDEVA:
23 Q. And then, Witness, from that marking that you just made I
24 understand that you went towards the top of the photograph. That's the
25 route you took towards 4 and 5. Is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you please continue with the blue line and draw that route.
3 A. [Marks].
4 Q. Now, if you look at the building number 1, you see the building
5 number 1? I want you to place a cross just beneath the number 1, the
6 figure number 1 there.
7 A. [Marks].
8 Q. And would you please do the same for the building in number 2 and
9 in number 3. Place a cross just beneath the figures.
10 A. [Marks].
11 Q. And my understanding is that where those crosses are -- where you
12 have placed those crosses, those are the places you never visited
13 throughout the conflict; is that right?
14 A. That's right, yeah.
15 Q. And so you never saw troops that were in those locations, if
16 indeed they were, did you?
17 A. Sir, I could see the troops as I passed through here, between
18 those two buildings here, and I -- as I went out into the street, outside
19 of my doorway, and also when I went out into the street that runs through
20 my neighbourhood, leading towards Alipasino Polje, even before I went to
21 this area marked with the cross, because the troops were always walking
22 down these areas in their hundreds.
23 Q. You never saw the troops firing from those buildings, did you, if
24 indeed they did?
25 A. I can't say that I saw that, but gun-fire can be felt. I was
1 trying to move along that area quite quickly, so that one of their lot
2 wouldn't shoot me to death. I was called a Chetnik every day. I had
3 rifles or, rather, pistols in my face and knives under my chin, threats
4 against my life whilst I was producing 120 hand-grenades for their
5 purposes every day.
6 Q. Well, let me just clarify that. You said that you were threatened
7 while you were producing what you were producing. So I take it you were
8 threatened at the area where you were working and not -- not in the area
9 where you were living; is that right?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was being threatened --
12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we just have something
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was threatened at my doorstep
16 night and day. They'd come over. On several occasion whenever I was late
17 for work for whatever reason, they came to see where I was, to check up on
18 me, so that I might not go somewhere and report them. Whenever I was at
19 the workplace, everything was fine. I wasn't bothered with this. All of
20 this happened outside my workplace.
21 If you will allow me to tell you this as well. Behind number 5
22 there, I was stopped there on several occasion. There was a prison there
23 of their commander, somebody mentioned earlier on that there were some
24 commanders involved. There was the commander of the special forces of the
25 BH army there, Luka Prasina, who was released by Alija Izetbegovic from
1 prison and who was appointed there by him. This was his private prison.
2 They would take me there in order to force me to watch what they were
3 doing to the prisoners. They would bring out these half dead people, and
4 they would bring this dog, a shepherd who was well-fed, to mistreat them
5 and then they'd tell me, Unless you're at Vase Miskina factory in 20
6 minutes time, this is what you will see happening to you tonight. This is
7 what somebody told me in my own neighbourhood.
8 MR. SACHDEVA:
9 Q. When did that happen, sir?
10 A. There is what Luka Prasina told me in my own neighbourhood.
11 In 1992 and in 1993 on several occasions. Because I had to pass
12 by the building where his prison was every day.
13 Q. What was the date, sir, of those occasions?
14 A. I don't know the dates.
15 Q. You don't remember the date when -- when you saw, as you said,
16 dead people and dogs were mistreating dead people. You don't remember
17 those dates, sir?
18 A. Well, if I can say, I recall that on that earlier incident when
19 they took me to see that pit, that was on the 27th of October, 1992. I
20 wanted to write about that, but then they searched my flat and they found
21 some pieces of paper where they said I had noted down some of the dates,
22 and after this happened I no longer wrote about this.
23 Q. Sir, what was the date when you saw the dog?
24 A. I don't know. It wasn't once that I saw it. I saw it dozens of
25 times. There would be people coming out -- into their balconies and
1 looking in the direction of the prison, as if it were a theatre or any --
2 or entertainment of sorts.
3 Q. Sir, I take it that you lived in that area from 1992 through to
4 the end of the conflict, is that right, in 1995?
5 A. I lived there until 1996, when they came and ordered me. They
6 told me, If you want to stay alive and you do deserve to stay alive
7 because you worked for us, so if you want to stay alive, leave the
8 premises tomorrow morning, and I did that. I called a friend of mine to
9 take me away, to help me to go away. They threw this friend of mine later
10 on out of his apartment and allowed a man who had two more houses to move
11 into his flat.
12 You have to hear this out. I returned and then I asked him, Why
13 did they give you this flat if you already have two houses.
14 Q. Sir, I am sorry to interrupt you, but we don't have much time. I
15 would just like you to stick to the questions I'm asking you.
16 You lived in the area throughout the conflict, and if I understand
17 you correctly, in 1994, sometime in the middle of 1994, you started
18 seeking medical attention. Is that right?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And, sir, do you mind if I ask you what -- what particular ailment
21 did you have? Can I do that in open session, or would you like me to go
22 into private session?
23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] There's no need for a private
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let the witness answer.
1 Do you want it to be in private session, Witness?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer right now.
3 As they were throwing me into that pit with the corpses, my arm
4 broke, and I couldn't do anything about it. I continued working with my
5 arm as it was fractured. I was also hit, or, rather, I received a blow
6 against my spine and the result of this was that I was prone to fainting.
7 My arm hurt me very much. And I worked for some five or six months with
8 the hand thus fractured, and as I started losing consciousness on a
9 frequent basis I went to see this Croat doctor who placed me on sick-leave
10 and treated me until I was expelled from Sarajevo.
11 MR. SACHDEVA:
12 Q. And the incident with the pit was in October 1992; is that right?
13 A. 1992.
14 Q. And you started seeking medical attention in June 1994; is that
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Now, sir, you're aware as was everyone living in
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time that there was a conflict that
19 unfortunately ravaged the country. You're aware of that, aren't you, sir?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you're also aware that unfortunately one of the -- one of the
22 results of this conflict was that there were population displacements, in
23 other words people for whatever reason had to leave their residences, from
24 all over the country.
25 A. I can only speak for myself. I know that I was driven out. I
1 wasn't a refugee. I was expelled.
2 Q. But, sir, you're aware that Croats and Muslims and Serbs would
3 leave their municipalities where they lived and move into the cities, move
4 in to Banja Luka, to Sarajevo, Tuzla. That happened, didn't it?
5 A. I don't know about that.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Where are you going with this, Mr. Sachdeva?
7 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, Your Honour, I'm moving towards the
8 evidence about the civilians living in -- or not living in the flats.
9 But I will do it in a quicker fashion.
10 Q. Sir, as you have testified you lived in Sarajevo during the
11 conflict, you must have been aware of the influx of civilians and persons
12 moving to the city during -- during that time; isn't that right?
13 A. I don't know who was moving in. I spent very little time at
14 home. I spent my time at work. I only used my time at home to sleep for
15 a few hours, as far as I was able to, what, with all the gun-fire. And to
16 go back to work. It's not that I worked for 12 hours only. I used to
17 work for 15 hours or more.
18 Q. Sir, you worked up until June 1994; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Therefore, after June 1994, you lived in your flat, did you not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when you worked at the place where you worked, and now you've
23 said you worked for 15 hours, of course while you were there at work you
24 did not and could not see any military activity if indeed was some in the
25 area where you lived; isn't that right?
1 A. No, I wasn't able to see anything.
2 Q. So the evidence that you've given with respect to the -- the
3 artillery fire you said that emanated from Alipasino Polje was from the
4 balance of nine hours in the day that you spent at that place; is that
6 A. Yes, as far as Alipasino Polje is concerned, that's the way it
8 Q. And, sir, those flats in circles 1, 2, 3 and indeed the flat where
9 you lived, I take it there were about 11 floors in each of those
11 A. No.
12 Q. Well, how many floors were there?
13 A. Seven and eight.
14 Q. And how many flats on each floor?
15 A. Four flats.
16 Q. And, sir, did you live with your family there?
17 A. Yes, with my wife.
18 Q. And in the complex where you lived, how many sets of seven-floor
19 buildings were there?
20 A. The entire neighbourhood of Vojnicko Polje had buildings of seven
21 or eight floors each.
22 Q. But if we look at the circle number 1, is it correct that there
23 are about four or five such buildings with seven floors in a row? Is that
24 right, sir?
25 A. I don't understand.
1 Q. Let's just take circle number 1. You'll see that there is a row
2 of buildings. And what I'm asking you is that how many rows comprised
3 that set of buildings and therefore how many seven-storey building
4 complexes were there?
5 A. Well, I don't know. Perhaps one can count them on this
6 photograph. But I don't know. I didn't count them myself.
7 Q. Well, you would agree that there is at least five.
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Well, let's take the building that you lived in. There were seven
10 storeys and on each storey there was four flats, four residential spaces.
11 Is that right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And you agree that each flat, the average household would contain
14 four persons?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Well, sir, generally you would agree that there is typically a
17 mother and a father and some children. So on average, I'm not asking
18 whether it is specific to these buildings, but on average, a household
19 would contain four persons. Would you agree with that?
20 A. I don't know. My household consisted of two persons.
21 Q. And you agree, sir, that in the complex where you lived in, there
22 would have been space for approximately at least over 250 persons?
23 A. Well, I don't know.
24 Q. Sir, I'm not asking to agree to anything that's controversial.
25 The flats, as you've said, have seven storeys and each storey has four
1 flats on them. And so my question is simply that there would have at
2 least been space -- I'm not saying that there were, but there would have
3 at least been space for over 250 people. Would you agree with that?
4 A. I don't know. It is possible that you can fit seven or eight
5 people in an apartment such as mine, which had an area of 55 square
6 metres, but I don't know.
7 Q. So therefore it is possible in the buildings where you lived in
8 and also in 1, 2 and 3 for well over 250 persons to live in those
9 buildings. You'll agree with that?
10 A. It is possible, but I don't know.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, we'll take the break now.
12 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.
15 MR. SACHDEVA:
16 Q. Sir, I just want to try and quickly finish with this exercise.
17 So what I'm suggesting to you, sir, is that the buildings marked
18 1, 2 and 3, you would agree that in total there was the potential to house
19 at least 750 to 1.000 persons, there was that potential, wasn't there?
20 A. Well, I can't give you an answer to that, sir, because that would
21 be speculation.
22 Q. Sir, with respect, I'm not asking you to give me a precise
23 figure. I'm asking you simply that there was a potential, given your
24 evidence of the number of stories and the number of flats on each storey
25 that in buildings 1, 2, 3 there was a potential to house over 750
1 persons. Do you agree with that?
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I'm allowing the reformulation of
4 the question.
5 Witness, do you agree with what counsel has put to you, that based
6 on the evidence that you have given, there was a potential for the
7 buildings, the storeys and the flats in buildings 1, 2 and 3 to house over
8 750 persons?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it -- there was a potential
10 for ten people to be at my place, and as of 1994, I have lived alone in my
11 apartment, so I can't really speculate. If that is so, then let somebody
12 confirm that this is indeed a potential situation. I can't tell you how
13 many tenants there were and how many tenants could be, could fit.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Witness. You must move on now,
15 Mr. Sachdeva, to another subject.
16 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President. Just one last question, if I
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Enough on that subject. That has been
19 sufficiently ventilated. You do have a little tendency, Mr. Sachdeva, to
20 overdo it. I think we have -- we have explored that one sufficiently, and
21 then you're going to have Mr. Tapuskovic rising up when he should be
22 resting himself.
23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, just -- just as the Prosecution is
24 under an obligation to put its case, I would just like to suggest to the
25 witness that in buildings 1, 2, and 3, civilians lived there throughout
1 the conflict, whether he agrees with that or not.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that can be put. Yes.
3 MR. SACHDEVA:
4 Q. Witness, I'll just put this question again to you.
5 I suggest to you, sir, that in buildings 1, 2, and 3, during the
6 conflict civilians indeed lived there. What do you say to that?
7 A. I spent the war there, and I can be certain when I say that there
8 were no civilians there. In buildings 1 and 2 there were no civilians.
9 As for building 3, it was destroyed completely, so I can be sure that
10 there were no civilians there, although I did not pass by that building.
11 Q. Indeed. And in fact you never went to buildings 1, 2, and 3, did
13 A. I've told you that. As for building number 2, I was able to talk
14 to the neighbours who lived there from my balcony. I could see that. I
15 could also see building number 1 as I went to work. I could see what
16 people were doing there. I didn't have to go right there to do so, and as
17 for the building number 3, I didn't go there.
18 Q. Sir, when you say you were able to talk to neighbours in building
19 number 2, I take it, therefore, that civilians did live in building number
21 A. I said that I could have, that there was no need for me to go
22 there, but I saw the troops.
23 Q. So when you say you were speaking to your neighbours, you were
24 saying that you were speaking to the troops in number 2, or what are you
25 saying, sir?
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Judge Robinson,
3 the witness said quite clearly it would -- I was able to talk to, had
4 there been anyone there, he didn't say that he talked to civilians. He
5 said had there been any civilians, he would have been able to talk to
6 them. It's a very clear idea, this model, I was able to or I could have
7 spoken to civilians.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: At line 5, page 62 says, "I was able to talk to
9 the neighbours who lived there from my balcony," and therefore I
10 understand counsel to be asking him who were these neighbours that you
11 were able to speak to, were they military people or were they civilians.
12 No? This is what is on our transcript. Yes.
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, that's -- then it is not a
14 correct translation of what the witness said. He said "I could have
15 talked to" or "I could talk to neighbours." Well, I'm not the interpreter
16 but I can tell you what it means when you say "I could." That's what he
17 repeated, "I could if there were any neighbours." That's what he said, so
18 perhaps he can then complete. "I could." He didn't say "I did." He said
19 "I could." Because there were no neighbours or troops. There were no
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd like to have this one correct, you know, to
23 find out what actually was said by the witness because there is a big
24 difference between I talked to and I could have talked to.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: But why would he be saying "I could have talked
2 to neighbours"? Why would he be saying that?
3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Because it's 20 metres away. In
4 normal times, when you live a normal life, I was able to talk to people
5 from my balcony in normal times. I could talk to them.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm trying to see how best to resolve this. I
7 would like to have it resolved. I don't think there's much point asking
8 the witness now, because the issue has been ventilated.
9 But let me ask him. Witness, what did you say and then I will
10 have it -- I will have the translation done by the official unit. What
11 did you actually say?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was talking about how close
13 building number 2 was. It was so close that I was able to see and I was
14 able, because it was so close, to talk to my neighbour, and if I had
15 talked to my neighbours, I would have said I talked to them. That's what
16 I meant. It is so close that you can talk to somebody who is in the other
17 building from your window, if that person is on the window too.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, we'll have to proceed on the basis
19 of that answer for the time being, but I'm going to ask the translation
20 unit to provide us with a translation as soon as possible.
21 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President.
22 Q. Witness, my last -- my last question on this issue, in this case,
23 we had a person that came here and testified, as you have done, as you are
24 doing, a civilian who lived in the buildings marked number 1, and he was
25 there throughout the conflict. And so now I'm asking you again, do you
1 still maintain your evidence that no civilians lived in buildings number
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 A. I am not changing the answer that I have just given you. I lived
5 there, and I didn't see any civilians there. And this building is close
6 to where I was and I was able to see it without going there, and I said
7 that I hadn't gone there, and I said that I hadn't seen any civilians
8 there during the war. I saw civilians in civilian -- people in civilian
9 clothes, but they were armed. They had rifles slung over their
10 shoulders. Now if you consider these people to be civilians, then, yes,
11 you're right.
12 Q. Witness, when you went to work you would take that route that you
13 have marked in blue. Do you remember that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And in the areas marked 4 and 5, those buildings were in Alipasino
16 Polje, weren't they?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you are aware that in front of those buildings there were
19 small playgrounds or small parks that children and other persons could
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And, indeed, when possible, children and other persons did use
23 those spaces, didn't they?
24 A. I apologise, I didn't hear you properly.
25 Q. Yes, my question was that: Indeed, when it was possible, children
1 and other persons did use those spaces, didn't they?
2 A. This space was an empty space, because there were some swings,
3 that was a playground, and people took all those things away if they were
4 made of wood to use as fuel. So these were empty spaces. The only
5 exception would be if people behind those sky-scrapers at Alipasino Polje,
6 people would go out and play football in those empty areas because all the
7 other implements that there were at the children's playgrounds had already
8 been taken away. Everything that was made of plastic or of wood had been
9 taken away.
10 Q. And sir, during your time in that area, in other words throughout
11 the conflict, you must have been aware or you must have heard or in fact
12 even seen an incident in the winter of 1994, in January of 1994, where six
13 children were killed while sledging in the snow in front of those
14 buildings. Is that correct?
15 A. I have never heard of it.
16 Q. No one of told you, you never saw anything in the media about that
17 incident, an incident where you would pass -- an incident in a place where
18 you would pass every day? Is that what you're saying, sir?
19 A. Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. This is the first I hear
20 of it.
21 Q. And, yet, sir, you're able to give evidence about ABiH artillery
22 fire from that area; in fact, quite detailed evidence and yet you can't
23 talk about this incident. Is that right?
24 A. I am speaking about things that I saw, and I don't want to speak
25 about things that somebody may have told me about and nobody has told me
1 about this. I'm only telling you about things that I saw or that I went
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you can tell us about things that you
4 have heard. That is -- that's permissible. So if you have heard about
5 this incident, even if you haven't seen it with your eyes, you may tell
6 us. You may tell us about it.
7 So have you heard? Did you hear of this incident where six
8 children were killed?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I swear I have never heard
10 about it before.
11 MR. SACHDEVA:
12 Q. Now, Witness, when you started going to the hospital, the state
13 hospital, that was in June 1994; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How many times did you go to the hospital from the beginning, from
16 that period, from June 1994 through to November 1995?
17 A. I have to make a correction here. I didn't go to the military
18 hospital which is now the State Hospital but as I went to the Kosevo
19 Hospital to receive treatment, I had to pass in front of the State
20 Hospital, and I passed by this building every seven days.
21 Q. So your treatment was at the Kosevo Hospital; is that right?
22 A. Yes, not at the State Hospital.
23 Q. And it's correct, is it not, sir, that the State Hospital is some
24 distance away from the Kosevo Hospital. In fact more than a kilometre.
25 Isn't that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If I was to show you a map would you be able to mark the location
3 of the Kosevo Hospital and the State Hospital, sir?
4 A. Well, if it's there, if it is marked there, then I would.
5 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could ask for 65 ter 02872 to be brought up,
7 And perhaps I can tender this photograph into evidence, under
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As P915, under seal, Your Honours.
11 MR. SACHDEVA: And, for the moment, can the map not be broadcast,
13 Q. Sir, while that map is being brought up, can you please answer how
14 many times did you go to -- now you're saying the Kosevo Hospital for
15 treatment from June 1994 through to November 1995?
16 A. Well, I would have to calculate this. As I said, I went there for
17 the checkup every seven days, which would mean four times a month.
18 Q. And so I want to establish so from the period June through to
19 November 1994, you went every seven days to the Kosevo Hospital
20 continuously; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What time would you set off and what time would you reach the
24 A. Well, at a normal pace it would take me about one and a half
25 hour. At that time it took me longer because I could barely walk. So
1 about two hours, from my home to the Kosevo Hospital.
2 Q. And what time would your appointment be at the hospital, what time
3 would you reach the hospital?
4 A. I always went there in the mornings, before noon.
5 Q. Now, if we could have the map enlarged, please.
6 Now, sir, I would like to you use a pen, and I'd like to you draw
7 the route that you took from your place to the Kosevo Hospital.
8 A. My flat is somewhere here. So here's Alipasino Polje. And the
9 route towards the town was the yellow -- yellow line that can you see,
10 Cengic Vila, the municipality of Novo Sarajevo and then I move forwards
11 towards the city, Marindvor, and the State Hospital is at Marindvor.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have to ask the
14 witness to start marking where he started.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can barely see. It's really
16 difficult to see things here on this map.
17 MR. SACHDEVA: Perhaps we can --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can the map be enlarged?
19 MR. SACHDEVA: No, it needs to be ...
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I can't see it now, yeah.
21 Are we going to start over?
22 MR. SACHDEVA: Scroll down a little bit, please. No, no, that's
23 fine, if you just -- that's fine.
24 Q. Sir, now please draw the route that you took.
25 A. I really can barely see. It was a bit bigger and I was able to
1 see. Now it is a little bit more difficult.
2 I said that Vojnicko Polje is somewhere here. So I went to
3 Alipasino Polje. From Alipasino Polje, I get to this main road, leading
4 from Ilidza to the city centre. That's Mese Selimovica Bulevar. I go to
5 Cengic Vila, I move straight on to Marindvor, and from Marindvor I take a
6 right -- a left turn here to cut my route shorter, right here in front of
7 the State Hospital.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... I mean
9 Mr. Tapuskovic.
10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't understand why
11 Mr. Sachdeva is not asked to instruct the witness to mark this whole
12 route, just as he started marking because it is it obvious that the
13 markings -- there are no markings. It is very useful for us to get the
14 whole of the route, for the witness to mark the whole of the route.
15 MR. SACHDEVA: I was about to do that once the witness had
16 finished. Of course, that was my intention.
17 Q. Witness, can you please mark that route, the route that you have
18 just described, please mark it with the red pen?
19 A. Could we please zoom in a little bit, because I can't read
20 anything that's up there from Marindvor.
21 I will start here. This is where my house is. I cross through
22 Alipasino Polje. I go out to the Mese Selimovica Bulevar and then I take
23 this road, and I pass through Cengic Vila. Otok is first, then Cengic
24 Vila, and then we get to Marindvor. And now from this yellow line, which
25 marks the main road, I take a left turn into a small street, it's a
1 shortcut because I need to get to this yellow road here and I have to pass
2 by the State Hospital here. I have to pass in front of the State Hospital
3 to get this shortcut. Now I can't see a thing here. I get to this road
4 here, and -- and the Kosevo Hospital is here. And that's it.
5 Yes, this is where the Kosevo Hospital is. That's the end.
6 Q. And, sir, when you took this route, as you said, every seven days,
7 when you passed the State Hospital, I take it you -- you spent less than
8 five minutes passing that hospital; is that right?
9 A. Well, yes.
10 Q. And sometimes even -- even a shorter amount of time. Is that also
12 A. Sometimes even more time.
13 Q. And is it your evidence, sir, that on those occasions while you
14 passed the State Hospital on to Kosevo this is where you saw the cannon
15 being fired. Is that right?
16 A. Yes, several times.
17 Q. How many times, sir?
18 A. Well, I didn't count. At least 20 times. I don't want to
19 exaggerate. But at least some 20 times.
20 Q. Where was it -- well, let me ask you. How many floors did the
21 State Hospital have?
22 A. I don't know how many floors it had at that time. Now it has 20
23 floors, but at that time it was a smaller building, just a few floors.
24 Q. So at the time of the conflict how many floors did it have, sir?
25 A. I don't know. I don't want to lie. But if -- I believe the State
1 Hospital didn't have more than five floors. Although I'm not certain. I
2 repeat that I'm not certain.
3 Q. So when you say five, it could be less than five or it could be
4 more than five?
5 A. Well, there were more and less than five, because the State
6 Hospital didn't consist of one building only.
7 Q. Well, sir, that's right, the State Hospital had more than one
8 building, but the tallest building of that complex, how many floors would
9 say you say it had, sir, during the conflict?
10 A. I don't know, and I don't want to say something that is not true.
11 Q. But, sir, you passed that hospital every seven days for over a
12 year, and you're telling the Court you don't know?
13 A. I have been going across Alipasino Polje for 25 years now and I
14 still don't know what the highest sky-scraper there is, although I pass
15 there every day. And there's a sky-scraper 50 metres away from my window,
16 but I simply am not interested in looking at these details. Had I been
17 lingering there counting how many floors there were, I would have been
18 shot at, because somebody would mistake me for a Chetnik trying to obtain
19 intelligence and pass it over to the other side.
20 Q. Yes. Sir, I take it that after all these years, it's not easy to
21 remember all the details, is it?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Isailovic.
23 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Again, I'm going to play a role that interpreters don't enjoy, but
25 here we really have an error, and I would like you to ask the CLSS to
1 check the audiotape of what was said on line -- page 72, line 23, and --
2 to page 73, line 4. This is a very important answer provided by the
3 witness, and I really believe that the interpretation is not accurate and
4 does not reflect what was said, and defence submits that this might be
5 very detrimental to its case.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: You didn't read out the line, but are you
7 referring then to the line which in English says "because somebody would
8 mistake me for a Chetnik trying to obtain intelligence."
9 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. There were many
10 mistakes, not deliberate, of course, but I believe this must be corrected.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: But before asking for it to be corrected, I
12 should at least have an idea of the mistake. I can't just ask for
13 something to be corrected because you have asked me to.
14 MS. ISAILOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can tell you what
15 the witness actually said. He did not say that someone could take him for
16 a Chetnik, but -- well, I can't check -- speak French and check the
17 interpretation at the same time. It's very difficult to do all these
18 things at once. I don't know if what I'm saying is correctly interpreted
19 at the moment.
20 But he said that someone could have thought that he was providing
21 information to the Chetniks by giving the positions where a cannon was
22 shot from. And this changes everything. This is a very different thing
23 than what can be read in -- what was translated into English.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I'll ask the CLSS to provide us with a
25 translation of that line. The court deputy will ensure that that is
1 done. And also the other matter that I referred to earlier.
2 And I hope we'll get a response very soon.
3 MR. SACHDEVA:
4 Q. Sir --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. I wanted to ask you when you went to the hospital, the Kosevo
8 Hospital and when you passed the State Hospital, and where you said would
9 you not linger, what time of day was that that you would pass the State
10 Hospital roughly?
11 A. I've already said that, around 10.00.
12 Q. And is it at that moment in the five minutes that -- that you
13 spent going past the State Hospital that you saw the cannon being fired;
14 is that right?
15 A. I saw it at the time, yes. But the detonation from the cannon can
16 be felt a kilometre away, near to the electrical engineering faculty or
17 near the hotel at Marindvor, even before you reach Holiday Inn, which is
18 the only hotel in Sarajevo, you can feel and sense where the fire came
19 from. And it must have been a dozen times that I was passing through
20 there and hearing detonations.
21 Q. Sir, can you please answer my question. When you passed the State
22 Hospital, did you ever see the cannon firing.
23 A. Well, that was my last sentence where I told you that I saw that a
24 dozen time when I was either on my way to the hospital or on my way back
25 from the hospital.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to intervene
3 once more. My colleague Sachdeva received on several occasions some
4 direct answers, and this was again a situation where a question is
5 repeated three times, a question that has been asked and answered. He
6 said on several occasions that he had seen that and now he has said that
7 on several occasions he could also hear it from a certain distance. But
8 he said on several occasions that he had seen that. After he gave this
9 direct answer again he has been asked the same question, and it was
10 insisted that he answer that question, again.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, well, in the last witness's last sentence,
12 which is on -- on the board before says, It must have been a dozen times
13 that I was passing through here and hearing detonations," and you have
14 asked him whether he ever saw the cannon firing.
15 A slight difference. Slight difference, yes.
16 MR. SACHDEVA: And that's why I asked the question, Mr. President.
17 Q. So, witness, can we agree that, just so I can confirm your
18 evidence when you passed the State Hospital, you saw -- in other words you
19 saw a cannon being fired, you saw a weapon being released from the cannon
20 at times when you passed the State Hospital, is that right, you physically
21 saw it with your eyes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What kind of weapon was it?
24 A. Probably shells.
25 Q. Probably? Do you know?
1 A. I don't know, because I wasn't an artillery specialist. During
2 President Tito when I was doing my military service I only had a pistol.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Bearing in mind he said probably, Mr. Sachdeva.
4 I presume he had a reason for answering that way.
5 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President.
6 Q. Witness, where was this cannon located when you saw it being
8 A. It was located within the perimeter of the hospital, perhaps some
9 20 metres away from the gate to that perimeter out in an open space. It
10 seems that this was done deliberately, so that somebody from the hill
11 might see the cannon, and it was a sort of provocation. It served to
12 provoke them to shoot at the hospital.
13 Q. So it was fired, as you say, from an open space where it could be
14 seen, not only from persons in the hills but also other persons that may
15 have been milling around the hospital at the time; is that correct?
16 A. Well, they were probably not provoking the persons milling around
17 the hospital. They were provoking the Serbs on the hill.
18 Q. And that's what I'm something, sir, that there were people in the
19 hospital and they would have also seen this cannon being fired from the
20 open space. Would you agree with that?
21 A. Probably.
22 Q. And how many people were manning this cannon?
23 A. I don't know. I was walking without turning my head back, as I
24 said, out of fear. I was merely passing by.
25 Q. Well, was it one person, was it more than one person? Do you have
1 any idea, sir?
2 A. There were two or three of them for sure.
3 Q. And you were also aware, sir, that in your time in Sarajevo there
4 was considerable presence of United Nations monitors and United Nations
5 personnel. Isn't that right?
6 A. I never saw them. I would probably seek help from them. I had
7 heard of them being present there.
8 Q. You're telling the Court, sir, that in your regular trips through
9 the city, as you've described your route, you never saw a United Nations
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever see United Nations APC or a United Nations vehicle,
14 A. No.
15 Q. You never saw United Nations personnel and you never saw a United
16 Nations vehicle, yet you're asking the Court to believe the evidence that
17 you have given that for the five minutes or so that you passed the State
18 Hospital you saw these cannons being fired by -- by the military. Is that
19 what your evidence is, sir?
20 A. I said what I knew and what I said was the truth. I can tell you
21 that I never saw any UN personnel or anyone along the route that I took.
22 Q. So can you tell the Court how many times did you see the cannon
23 being fired. I want to know the number of times you saw this cannon being
25 A. I said that I was certain that I saw that ten times, not less for
1 sure. More, I'm not sure. But I heard it so many times, I don't know,
2 countless times, as I was passing in that area.
3 Q. So when you saw this cannon being fired for ten times, can you
4 give me a date of one of the times that it was fired, please?
5 A. I can't. It was a long time ago, and given all that was going on
6 and that was happening to me, I would be likely to forget as well.
7 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that -- that you're not telling the truth
8 with respect to your evidence about the cannons. What do you say to that?
9 A. I am claiming that I'm telling the truth. You can tell me openly
10 that I'm lying. However, I state that I'm telling the truth and I'm
11 abiding by the oath that I took. And this is the first time in -- in my
12 60 years that I am appearing in a court of law, and I am telling you that
13 I am testifying honestly and truthfully.
14 Q. When you went to the hospital, did you -- did you always walk from
15 your place to the hospital?
16 A. Always.
17 Q. And when you walked down that road, I take it that you've heard
18 that the road was termed "Sniper Alley"?
19 A. I don't know about that. Vojnicko Polje, in my neighbourhood, was
20 known as the lair of snipers.
21 Q. And when did you -- did you have to travel past the Holiday Inn
22 when you went to the hospital?
23 A. Yes. I told you a moment ago, past the Holiday Inn and then the
24 first building after the Holiday Inn, I turned left to cut the road short,
25 and then I would straight on -- and then I would go straight on to the
1 Kosevo Hospital.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva, there's five minutes remaining of
3 the time allotted to you.
4 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I'm going finish today.
5 Q. On your trips, sir, down this road that you took to the Kosevo
6 Hospital, did you ever notice barricades, containers and other
7 contraptions that were used to protect civilians?
8 A. I was only looking at the containers and barricades. As you pass
9 my company, Cengic Vila, toward Marindvor where barricades were placed on
10 the road toward Grbavica, and it was from those barricades that they fired
11 upon Grbavica and of course Serbs fired upon them from Grbavica. That was
12 the only place where I saw that.
13 Q. And so the Serbs fired at the civilians that were passing the
14 barricades. Is that right, sir?
15 A. If I said that the Muslim army was manning these barricades, was
16 present at these barricades, then I've told you everything.
17 MR. SACHDEVA: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination?
19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will only deal
20 with one matter, which has to do --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... Please.
22 Mr. Sachdeva.
23 MR. SACHDEVA: Sorry, Mr. President. May I tender this map,
24 please, into evidence.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that is admitted as P916, under
3 Re-examination by Mr. Tapuskovic:
4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will
5 only be broaching one subject quite briefly.
6 He was showing us the route that he took on his way to the
7 doctor. By your leave, I would like to ask him the following:
8 Q. Had it not been for that Croat doctor who helped you to go on
9 sick-leave, would you -- would you have ever taken that route on your way
10 to the hospital? Would you have ever gone on sick-leave?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.
12 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, this, in my submission, does not
13 arise out of cross-examination.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: How does it arise, Mr. Tapuskovic?
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw the question. I will
16 put a different question to him, which arises from cross-examination,
17 although in my view this one also arises from cross-examination.
18 Q. In answer to questions by Mr. Sachdeva, you said that from the
19 month of July of 1994 all the way to the end of the conflict once weekly
20 you went for these checkups. Can you tell the Judges why did you have to
21 go and have these checkups once a week?
22 A. These checkups were mandatory for me.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sachdeva.
24 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, that, in my submission, also does
25 not arise out of cross-examination. In fact, the once every seven days
1 was mentioned in examination-in-chief and in my submission that would have
2 been the appropriate time to ask that follow-up question, the logical
3 follow-up question.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I must have been a very easy going prosecutor in
5 my days, because I can't remember jumping up so frequently to object on
6 these grounds.
7 And so how does this arise now, Mr. Tapuskovic?
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you will recall my
9 learned friend Mr. Sachdeva insisting on several times that the number be
10 precisely determined of how many times a month, how many times throughout
11 the period the witness went there but there is one important matter that
12 the witness has to answer to, and this is why did he have to go and have
13 these checkups every week. My learned friend insisted on knowing how many
14 times in total the witness went for these checkups. I believe that
15 there's a very important explanation behind all of this, and I believe the
16 witness should be allowed to explain why he had to go and have all these
17 checkups so frequently.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: The frequency is one thing. That was what was
20 the subject of the cross-examination, not the cause for the visit.
21 The Chamber rules that it doesn't arise.
22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, precisely because
23 he went to have these checkups so often in that period of time, which had
24 been the subject of much examination by the Prosecutor, I believe it would
25 benefit the Trial Chamber to know why the witness had to go for these
1 checkups so often. He was not sick, literally speaking. Well, he was
2 afflicted by psychological problems. He had physical problems but I
3 believe that there was another reason why he had to go there so often, and
4 I do believe the Trial Chamber ought to hear this, and if you're not
5 prepared to change your ruling in any way, then I will have to sit down.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not changing the ruling.
7 Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank you for coming to
8 the Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's no other witness, and it's time for the
13 break, anyhow. So we will adjourn until tomorrow at 2.00 p.m. I should
14 say that we will be monitoring the time being taken the parties very
15 strictly to ensure that we finish at the time that we have agreed to
16 conclude, which is 6.00 p.m.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of July,
19 2007, at 2.00 p.m.