Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 747

          1                 Monday, 9th November, 1998

          2                 (Open session)

          3                 (The accused entered court)

          4                 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

          5            JUDGE MUMBA:  Good morning.  Mr. Registrar,

          6  can you please call the case?

          7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

          8  Case number IT-95-17/1-T, the Prosecutor versus Anto

          9  Furundzija.

         10            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you very much.  The

         11  accused, can you hear me in a language you understand?

         12            THE ACCUSED:  Yes, Your Honour.

         13            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  May I have

         14  appearances?  The Prosecution?

         15            MS. HOLLIS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

         16  Brenda Hollis with my colleagues Patricia Sellers and

         17  Michael Blaxill appear on behalf of the Prosecutor.

         18            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  The Defence?

         19            MR. MISETIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

         20  Luka Misetic and Sheldon Davidson on behalf of the

         21  Defendant.

         22            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  This morning the

         23  Court has just received filings from the Defence on

         24  notice pursuant to 94 bis (c) saying that they would

         25  like the expert witnesses in rebuttal to come and be

Page 748

          1  cross-examined by the Prosecution.  I don't know

          2  whether the Prosecution has received this.

          3            MS. HOLLIS:  We just received it, Your

          4  Honour.  However, we had anticipated doing direct exam

          5  of our experts, and they are available.

          6            JUDGE MUMBA:  And also the second document is

          7  dealing with statements in rejoinder; is that so?

          8            MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I believe it's not

          9  their witness in direct, it's their witness in rebuttal

         10  to our witness in direct, and ours is --

         11            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

         12            MR. MISETIC:  -- rejoinder.  So we asked that

         13  we want to cross-examine their witnesses in rebuttal.

         14            JUDGE MUMBA:  In rebuttal, yes.

         15            MR. MISETIC:  I have forgotten what the

         16  pending question was, Your Honour.

         17            JUDGE MUMBA:  I just wanted to clear that

         18  because you have your responses to statements of

         19  Dr. Brown which are the rebuttal witnesses.

         20            MR. MISETIC:  We wish to cross-examine both

         21  Dr. Brown and Dr. Rath, and then I believe the Court

         22  should have a notice that we wish to recall Dr. Morgan

         23  and Dr. Younggren in rejoinder following Dr. Rath.

         24            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  We have that.  That's

         25  what we've just received as well.

Page 749

          1            MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

          2            JUDGE MUMBA:  Have the Prosecution received

          3  that, the rejoinder witnesses?

          4            MS. HOLLIS:  We just received that, yes, Your

          5  Honour.

          6            JUDGE MUMBA:  The proceedings this morning

          7  are for the reopening of the case pursuant to our

          8  decision of the 16th July, 1998.  That is following

          9  disclosure of documents by the Prosecution after the

         10  proceedings were closed the last time in June.

         11            The order of proceedings the Trial Chamber

         12  feels will be as follows:  There will be further

         13  cross-examination of those witnesses, Prosecution

         14  witnesses, recalled by the Defence, that is the first

         15  witness, Dr. Mujezinovic, and Witness A, and then they

         16  will be re-examined by the Prosecution; thereafter, the

         17  Defence will call their experts for

         18  examination-in-chief, then cross-examination by the

         19  Prosecution, re-examination; and thereafter the

         20  Prosecution will call their witnesses in rebuttal, the

         21  two experts, and re-examination in chief, then

         22  cross-examination and re-examination, if any, and

         23  rejoinder witnesses, if any, pursuant to the notice of

         24  the Defence.

         25            That is going to be the order of the

Page 750

          1  proceedings.

          2            When it comes to times, we will adjust the

          3  afternoon sitting hours as we have started at 9.30 up

          4  to 12.30, and the afternoon we shall start at 14.30 to

          5  17.30.  There has been a change.  We shall be sitting a

          6  half-hour later.

          7            And then we will have one break during the

          8  morning and one break during the afternoon.  In the

          9  morning, it will be one break of 30 minutes at 11.00

         10  hours and start at 11.30 up to 12.30.  In the

         11  afternoon, I will be able to announce when we start at

         12  14.30 to see how much time we need.  We shall proceed

         13  accordingly.

         14            So I would ask the Defence which witness of

         15  the two they want to call first, to recall first.

         16            MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, we intend to call

         17  Dr. Mujezinovic first, but we have some housekeeping

         18  matters to address before we get to the witness --

         19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

         20            MR. MISETIC:  -- some of which I believe will

         21  be uncontested, others which will likely be contested

         22  but we offer them right now.

         23            The first matter is that we wish to offer

         24  some of the statements that were produced to us into

         25  evidence; that is by consent of the Prosecution as

Page 751

          1  well.  I believe they are the statements of two

          2  doctors, who are unidentified in public so I won't use

          3  their names.  These statements that were produced to us

          4  by Medica, the documents that were produced to us by

          5  Medica, we wish to offer those into evidence as well.

          6            JUDGE MUMBA:  Those are the ones we dealt

          7  with in our decision, isn't it, where you asked for

          8  identities, the one the Prosecution said they didn't --

          9            MR. MISETIC:  Quite frankly, Your Honour,

         10  yes, we are going to offer those into evidence; I just

         11  haven't had the opportunity to make any copies, so I

         12  was going to offer them on a little later, but since

         13  the Prosecution and the Court already have copies, if

         14  you want to do that now, that's fine with me too, but

         15  it's the July -- the June disclosed documents, the two

         16  witness statements from the two doctors in Bosnia who

         17  briefly examined Witness A, the medical records that

         18  were produced to us pursuant to subpoena from Medica --

         19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Can we do that after the break

         20  when you're able to identify them clearly?

         21            MR. MISETIC:  Absolutely.

         22            JUDGE MUMBA:  Then we can have the record

         23  clearly identifying the documents you wish submitted

         24  into evidence and then the Prosecution will also have

         25  time to --

Page 752

          1            MR. MISETIC:  Absolutely, Your Honour.

          2            JUDGE MUMBA:  -- make sure that they are the

          3  ones they consented to.

          4            MR. MISETIC:  Absolutely.  The other issue is

          5  that since we read the response or the statements of

          6  the Prosecution's expert witnesses, we realise that

          7  they are going to contend that we have no knowledge

          8  about treatment used at Medica with respect to how they

          9  proceed or anything about them.

         10            We searched our files, and we have two

         11  documents regarding Medica, the types of treatment it

         12  uses, its history, the amount of experience that the

         13  people at Medica had in treating patients generally of

         14  trauma and specifically with PTSD.  That was a document

         15  that I downloaded off the internet and, as we sit here

         16  this morning, is no longer on the internet.

         17            The other document that we believe has

         18  evidentiary value and that our experts will comment on

         19  is the e-mail that was produced to the Court Thursday

         20  purported to be from Dr. Monika Hauser.

         21            JUDGE MUMBA:  Discussing what?

         22            MR. MISETIC:  It is discussing the -- I don't

         23  know whether the Court has had an opportunity to see

         24  that or not, the e-mail that we faxed to the Court from

         25  Dr. Monika Hauser.  It purports to be an e-mail from

Page 753

          1  Dr. Monika Hauser.  Our experts are going to comment

          2  specifically about the attitudes expressed in that

          3  e-mail and how those attitudes can affect a patient who

          4  is recovering from trauma.  We wish to offer those into

          5  evidence.

          6            We rely on two grounds:  First, the e-mail

          7  itself evidences the amount of cooperation that we

          8  could expect from Medica itself; second, the e-mail was

          9  only, according to its face, sent out on November 2nd,

         10  and therefore, it would be impossible to get someone to

         11  authenticate it; and third, there is precedent for this

         12  in the case of Prosecutor versus Blaskic, I believe the

         13  Prosecutor offered into evidence in July, it is my

         14  recollection, over 200 documents directly into evidence

         15  which Trial Chamber I admitted and notified the Defence

         16  in that case that they could review the documents if

         17  they wished to contest the authenticity of any of those

         18  documents, they could call witnesses to question the

         19  authenticity.  Based on that precedent that is

         20  established in this Tribunal, we ask for the same -- it

         21  wouldn't be reciprocal, but the same consideration in

         22  this case.  We believe it's directly relevant and, at

         23  the moment, is the only evidence of Medica, its

         24  history, et cetera, that is coming directly from Medica

         25  itself, in addition to the documents that were produced

Page 754

          1  pursuant to subpoena.

          2            I have the documents here, Your Honours, if

          3  you wish to see them.

          4            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, I think we would like to

          5  see them so that we know exactly that we are dealing

          6  with the same documents.

          7            Have the Prosecution been given copies?

          8            MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, the first document

          9  is entitled "BosNews Report - Medica Zenica - Women

         10  Therapy Centre"; the second document is entitled

         11  "Medica's Psycho Team - Finding Our Own Way"; and the

         12  third document is the e-mail purported to be from

         13  Dr. Monika Hauser who is the founder of Medica

         14  generally and specifically in Zenica.

         15            JUDGE MUMBA:  I wanted to ask the

         16  Prosecutor -- they are just receiving the copies right

         17  now.

         18            MS. HOLLIS:  Yes, Your Honour, we are just

         19  receiving them.  We haven't seen these before.

         20            JUDGE MUMBA:  So you need time to look at

         21  them.

         22            MS. HOLLIS:  Yes, Your Honour.

         23            JUDGE MUMBA:  Is there any one of them that

         24  had been produced, Mr. Misetic?

         25            MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, to give the Court

Page 755

          1  its fullest information, we discovered these documents,

          2  one of which was stored away and we had no -- I had no

          3  knowledge of, or I had knowledge of but I had forgotten

          4  about.  The other two -- and we discovered them

          5  Saturday night in preparing for the case, and so over

          6  the weekend, it would have been difficult to get the

          7  documents to the Prosecution.

          8            The other documents were put on the internet

          9  last week and were produced to the Court and I believe

         10  to counsel because they were filed by us.

         11            MS. HOLLIS:  Your Honour, if I might

         12  comment?

         13            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

         14            MS. HOLLIS:  We were in contact with the

         15  Defence over the weekend, we gave them the phone number

         16  of Mr. Blaxill.  We were here both Saturday and

         17  Sunday.  To my knowledge, we didn't receive a phone

         18  call as to whether we were available to receive these.

         19  So our position is that we would have been available.

         20            JUDGE MUMBA:  So it is clear then that the

         21  Prosecution would like some time to look at these

         22  before they can comment on whether or not they can be

         23  admitted into evidence.

         24            MS. HOLLIS:  We would appreciate that, Your

         25  Honour.

Page 756

          1            JUDGE MUMBA:  We will deal with the matter

          2  later.

          3            MR. MISETIC:  We have no objection to that.

          4            JUDGE MUMBA:  In that case then, we will look

          5  at all the documents at a later stage.  We can go ahead

          6  with the witnesses.

          7            MR. MISETIC:  Yes, but I wish to alert the

          8  Court that to the extent that we complete the

          9  examination of the witnesses before our morning break,

         10  those documents would be documents that I would want to

         11  use in the examination of our first expert, and

         12  therefore, I don't know how the Court would want to

         13  proceed with it, make a ruling while I'm proceeding

         14  or --

         15            JUDGE MUMBA:  Let me get you clear.  You are

         16  saying some of the documents, you would like to refer

         17  them to your expert witnesses.

         18            MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  Our experts have reviewed

         19  the documents and have comments about the documents,

         20  and the positions -- the techniques described in the

         21  documents as to the treatment of patients, there are

         22  certain admissions in the documents regarding

         23  experience or lack thereof in treating patients, so

         24  they would like to comment upon that.

         25            JUDGE MUMBA:  So all I want to know is:  Are

Page 757

          1  there any of these documents that you wish to refer to

          2  "A" or Dr. Mujezinovic?

          3            MR. MISETIC:  No.

          4            JUDGE MUMBA:  So we can proceed with those

          5  two at least.

          6            MR. MISETIC:  Yes, we can, Your Honour.  Yes,

          7  we can.

          8            JUDGE MUMBA:  Which one would you like to

          9  have recalled first?

         10            MR. MISETIC:  The Defence recalls Dr. Muhamed

         11  Mujezinovic.

         12            JUDGE MUMBA:  Shall we go into closed

         13  session, depending on what examination you are going to

         14  proceed on?

         15            MR. MISETIC:  I leave that to the Court.  It

         16  is the Defence's position that the testimony at least

         17  should be public, the issues are public.  I think it

         18  would be to the benefit of not only my client

         19  specifically with respect to, quite frankly, the

         20  perception in the public about this case to date but,

         21  in addition, it would be beneficial to the public to

         22  hear what the testimony in the case is.

         23            That said, I leave it to you because I will

         24  announce to the Court today that almost all of the

         25  testimony with respect to Dr. Mujezinovic is going to

Page 758

          1  be about Witness A.  You know, we --

          2            JUDGE MUMBA:  As long as no other names which

          3  were heard in closed session are going to be mentioned,

          4  then that's okay.

          5            MR. MISETIC:  I'm completely aware of the

          6  requirements not to disclose names that are

          7  confidential, and I don't believe that Dr. Mujezinovic

          8  would have any reason to mention a name that is

          9  protected so ...

         10            JUDGE MUMBA:  Ms. Hollis?

         11            MS. HOLLIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Your

         12  Honour, the Prosecution requests that we do have this

         13  in closed session.  When Dr. Mujezinovic testified as

         14  to issues that are relevant to why this case was

         15  re-opened during the initial phase of the proceedings,

         16  he testified in closed session.  We believe that closed

         17  session is the only way to appropriately ensure that

         18  there are no statements that can be linked to Witness A

         19  if she is later identified, which we think is very

         20  possible.

         21            We are not aware of any perception of the

         22  fairness of this trial that would require otherwise

         23  appropriately closed session testimony to be given in

         24  open session.  It would be our request that we go into

         25  closed session.

Page 759

          1            MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, may I respond?

          2            First, I don't see how the Prosecution can

          3  say they don't see what the effect has been when

          4  Dr. Hauser posts on the internet that a war criminal is

          5  going on trial on Monday, so Mr. Furundzija has been

          6  convicted in the court of at least Medica's opinion.

          7            Second, the Prosecution had no objection to

          8  us talking about all of this in open session in final

          9  argument.  These are all matters that are now in the

         10  public domain, and the only person it hurts, in terms

         11  of keeping these matters confidential, is my client.

         12            I would note the distinct disadvantage we're

         13  at because, much to my chagrin, someone from the Office

         14  of the Prosecutor made comments to the New York Times

         15  that the victim is being retraumatised by this Trial

         16  Chamber and by the Defence.  We know for a fact that

         17  that is a request made by the Office of the Prosecutor

         18  in July to reopen the case and have Witness A come

         19  back.

         20            That is why our specific request is to at

         21  least have the testimony out in public so everyone can

         22  fairly comment upon this.

         23            JUDGE MUMBA:  But you do appreciate,

         24  Mr. Misetic, that part of the testimony of

         25  Dr. Mujezinovic during the trial proceedings was in

Page 760

          1  closed session?

          2            MR. MISETIC:  At our request.

          3            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

          4            MR. MISETIC:  Right.  It was at our request

          5  for a specific purpose, and that was so that

          6  Dr. Mujezinovic -- if I may backtrack?  It wasn't

          7  because we were afraid that Dr. Mujezinovic would

          8  reveal something in terms of her psychiatric or

          9  psychological condition but that I was cross-examining

         10  him with respect to his knowledge about Witness A's

         11  spouse, and I didn't want her spouse's identity to

         12  become public.  That was the motivation behind keeping

         13  it in closed session.

         14            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  Ms. Hollis?

         15            MS. HOLLIS:  Yes, Your Honour.  We feel

         16  compelled to request that, in closed session, the

         17  Defence tell us who it is he is asserting in the Office

         18  of the Prosecutor gave any information to any media.

         19  It is not the policy of the Office of the Prosecutor to

         20  provide any information to the media about ongoing

         21  cases, so we would request the specific name to whom

         22  the Defence is referring.  We would ask for that in

         23  closed session, please.

         24            MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, there is no need

         25  to go into closed session because there is no name.  I

Page 761

          1  suggest that the Office of the Prosecutor conduct an

          2  internal investigation because the person was

          3  specifically identified as an attorney who deals with

          4  sexual assault crimes at the Tribunal, and I assume

          5  that is not a Defence counsel.

          6            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Misetic, you know very well

          7  that a media report without a name cannot be relied

          8  upon for your submission in court --

          9            MR. MISETIC:  I understand that, Your

         10  Honour.  But I also understand the other side, which is

         11  it's very easy to keep yourself an unidentified source,

         12  make comments to the press, and then come into court

         13  and say you can't rely that the press actually used the

         14  correct statement.  I have no problem with that, but

         15  this will then prevent the press from making false

         16  statements if the evidence is out in public, and that's

         17  the point of having a public trial --

         18            JUDGE MUMBA:  The point, Mr. Misetic, here is

         19  that the Defence counsel cannot prove that it was

         20  somebody from the Prosecution's Office, (1), and you

         21  are relying on that to ask for open session.  That is

         22  where the problem is, because you can't prove it.  So

         23  the best thing for you is to withdraw that because you

         24  have agreed that there was no name so you don't

         25  actually know.

Page 762

          1            MR. MISETIC:  I didn't give a name in the

          2  first place, Your Honour.

          3            JUDGE MUMBA:  So what if it was just a

          4  fabrication?

          5            MR. MISETIC:  Then we should call the New

          6  York Times reporter in and question her as to what her

          7  source is.

          8            JUDGE MUMBA:  That is too far-fetched --

          9            MR. MISETIC:  It is not an important point,

         10  but it is -- it is what it is.  I identified what her

         11  claim as to the source is.

         12            JUDGE MUMBA:  That is not accepted by the

         13  Trial Chamber.

         14            MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         15            JUDGE MUMBA:  After considering the issue

         16  whether or not Dr. Mujezinovic should be

         17  re-cross-examined in open or closed session, the Trial

         18  Chamber is of the view that the proceedings will go on

         19  in open session.  So you may proceed, Mr. Misetic.

         20            MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour?  I apologise for

         21  the interruption.

         22            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

         23            MR. MISETIC:  I forgot to raise an issue

         24  which may be of some importance and may be also

         25  something that the Prosecution wishes to consider.

Page 763

          1            We would like to have our expert sit in to

          2  listen to the testimony of Dr. Mujezinovic and

          3  Witness A so that they can comment upon whatever

          4  evidence they hear directly in the courtroom.  In

          5  addition, since neither Mr. Davidson nor I have any

          6  real expertise in the area of clinical and forensic

          7  psychology, to the extent that anything comes up for

          8  which we have not been prepared, they may be able to

          9  advise us as to a specific course of questioning which

         10  would be appropriate.

         11            We would have no objection if the Prosecution

         12  wish to have their experts also sit in so that they

         13  could comment upon the same testimony and rebut any

         14  testimony provided by our experts.  Thank you.

         15            JUDGE MUMBA:  Ms. Hollis?

         16            MS. HOLLIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We

         17  believe that it's not a matter of objection or no

         18  objection, it is a matter that is allowed by the Rules,

         19  and we would ask the same thing of our experts.  We

         20  believe it can be of assistance to the counsel in the

         21  case.

         22            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, Mr. Misetic, your experts

         23  can sit in.  The same will be for the Prosecution

         24  witnesses in rebuttal; they can sit in from whatever

         25  stage so they can assist with the evidence.

Page 764

          1            MR. MISETIC:  Our experts are in the Defence

          2  witness room.  If the Court wishes to call them in,

          3  that would be fine.

          4            JUDGE MUMBA:  Can we be assisted with that,

          5  please?

          6                 (The witness entered court)

          7            JUDGE MUMBA:  Maybe while we're waiting, the

          8  witness can make the solemn declaration due to the

          9  passage of time.  So can the witness make a solemn

         10  declaration?

         11            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will

         12  speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

         13  truth.

         14            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  You may be seated.

         15                 WITNESS:  MUHAMED MUJEZINOVIC (resumed)

         16                 Re-cross-examined by Mr. Misetic:

         17            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Court doesn't mind the

         18  experts being closer to the Defence counsel, right

         19  behind them.  So that if there is need for

         20  consultation, it will be much easier.

         21            MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, for the record, I

         22  believe it would be appropriate to indicate that on

         23  behalf of the defence are witnesses Dr. Jeffery

         24  Younggren and Dr. Charles A. Morgan.

         25            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

Page 765

          1            MR. MISETIC:  The Prosecution can make its

          2  identification.

          3            MR. BLAXILL:  Good morning, Your Honours.

          4  The Prosecution expert witness present in court is

          5  Dr. Craig C. Rath, R-A-T-H.

          6            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  If they both use

          7  English it's on channel 4.  Yes, ready, you may

          8  proceed.

          9            Dr. Mujezinovic, you've been recalled for

         10  these proceedings, which are a reopening of these

         11  proceedings which were otherwise closed in June, for

         12  further cross-examination by the Defence regarding

         13  whichever subject matter they will put to you.  So

         14  you're here to answer the questions, and then after

         15  that the Prosecution will re-examine you.

         16            MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         17       Q.   Good morning, Doctor.

         18       A.   Good morning.

         19       Q.   Have you communicated with anyone about your

         20  testimony in this case since you've last testified in

         21  June of this year?

         22       A.   No.

         23       Q.   Have you communicated with Witness A since

         24  you last testified in this case in June of this year?

         25       A.   No.  I haven't even seen Witness A.

Page 766

          1       Q.   Have you spoken with Dr. Kadrija Sabic about

          2  Witness A or this case since your previous testimony?

          3       A.   No.

          4       Q.   Do you know Mirha Pojskic?

          5       A.   I know some Pojskics, but Mirhet or Mirheta I

          6  don't know.

          7       Q.   I don't believe I said Mirheta, Doctor.  I

          8  talking about the Mirha Pojskic, and perhaps this will

          9  refresh your recollection; Mirha Pojskic from Medica in

         10  Zenica?

         11       A.   I do not know her.

         12       Q.   Doctor, wasn't it your testimony, in June,

         13  that you referred Witness A to Dr. Kadrija Racic-Sabic,

         14  and I'm citing page 208 of the transcript

         15  here:  "Because she is specialised in these things, and

         16  I asked her to treat his wife.  My lady colleague did

         17  this for a humanitarian organisation called Medica with

         18  a seat in Zenica.  They had a team, and I cooperated

         19  with the team who helped those individuals who went

         20  through the post-war distress syndrome."

         21            Do you recall that testimony, Doctor?

         22       A.   Yes, I do.  I said last time that a person

         23  that the -- Person A came to my office.  She spoke to

         24  me.  I was unable to assist her, and I called up my

         25  colleague, whom I knew well, a neuropsychiatrist, Madam

Page 767

          1  Kadrija Sabic-Haracic, who was at the same time an

          2  associate of Medica and who worked in the

          3  neuropsychiatric department in Zenica.  I did cooperate

          4  with people from Medica, because after the end of

          5  hostilities with the Croats they would come to Stari

          6  Vitez.  As Kadrija Sabic came with them I was

          7  introduced to her, but I didn't try to memorise her

          8  because there were several of them, you see.  Kadrija

          9  Haracic was not the only one.  It is possible that

         10  Mirha Pojskic was among them.

         11            I'm just saying there was a group of them, a

         12  team consisting of a sociologist, a gynaecologist, a

         13  psychiatrist, and I made it possible for them to have

         14  normal working conditions in Stari Vitez, and I did not

         15  interfere in their work.  They had their own methods

         16  and programmes of work.  I did not directly participate

         17  in their work with them.

         18            They would come in a van, and most of the

         19  examination were is done in the van itself or in my

         20  office -- or, rather, my surgery, because I would stop

         21  working when they came and pass over the office to

         22  them.

         23       Q.   Doctor, you were the President of the War

         24  Presidency during 1993 and 1994; is that correct?

         25       A.   Yes, that is correct.

Page 768

          1       Q.   And you were in Zenica after you were forced

          2  to leave the Vitez municipality in May of 1993; isn't

          3  that correct?

          4       A.   I was President of the War Presidency from

          5  the 2nd of February, 1993 until about November or

          6  December 1994.  I was exchanged from Vitez on the 19th

          7  of May, 1993, and my family stayed behind in Vitez.

          8  They were exchanged on the 31st of May, and we lived

          9  with my sister in Zenica from the 31st of May for about

         10  six months, until I was given a house to live in by a

         11  friend of mine.

         12       Q.   Is the answer to the question "Yes", Doctor?

         13       A.   Yes.  I was President of the War Presidency

         14  of Vitez municipality, of the Bosniak, or as they say,

         15  the Muslim part of the Vitez municipality.

         16       Q.   But from June 1, 1993 through December of

         17  1994 you were in Zenica; correct?

         18       A.   My family lived in Zenica.  I spent a part of

         19  my time in Zenica, but most of my time in the villages

         20  of Poculica, Preocica, Vrhovine as a physician.  I

         21  worked as a physician as well throughout the war.

         22       Q.   As President of the War Presidency, did you

         23  become -- strike that.

         24            As President of the War Presidency did you

         25  ever meet Dr. Monika Hauser?

Page 769

          1       A.   No.

          2       Q.   You never met Dr. Monika Hauser?

          3       A.   I don't remember.  I have heard of her.  I

          4  know that she was in charge of Medica.  And as far as I

          5  know, Medica, as an organisation, did a great deal in

          6  those parts helping the seriously traumatised people.

          7            I promised to the personnel that I would go

          8  and visit them, but I never did visit their premises.

          9  They told me where they were headquartered in Zenica,

         10  but I never went to those offices.  But I do know that

         11  they did a great deal to help people, and that our

         12  official reports were highly laudatory of Medica.  And

         13  privately, too, people had expressed their appreciation

         14  for what had been done by Medica in Zenica.

         15       Q.   Other than Witness A, did you ever refer a

         16  person or one of your patients to Medica?

         17       A.   I advised -- I did advise other patients too,

         18  but Person A, in my view, was the most typical or,

         19  rather, a drastic case.  I gave similar advice to

         20  others when they came to see me, that is, that they can

         21  seek assistance from them, because Dr. Kadrija Haracic

         22  was from Vitez, she was born in Vitez, and before the

         23  war and after the war we had collaborated when dealing

         24  with such and similar cases.  Even today, as a

         25  physician, I often advise patients with this kind of

Page 770

          1  disorder to address to Dr. Racic Sabic and her

          2  colleague, who is specialising on such problems,

          3  Emira.

          4       Q.   You said you've worked with Dr. Racic Sabic

          5  prior to the war and after the war?

          6       A.   I said that we cooperated professionally,

          7  because the system of organisation of health care is

          8  such that I give specialist notice for a patient to go

          9  and see such and such a doctor, a specialist, "She will

         10  help you most."

         11       Q.   Doctor, but I'm asking you -- so then let's

         12  use your terminology.  You cooperated with her during

         13  the war and after the war; is that correct?

         14       A.   Before the war as well.

         15       Q.   So as the referring physician for Witness A,

         16  in these opportunities that you had to cooperate with

         17  Dr. Racic Sabic, did you ask -- let me finish the

         18  question.  Did you ask for an update as to the

         19  condition of Witness A?

         20       A.   No.  I had a lot of work to do.  I didn't

         21  give such a note to Witness A.  I said that she came to

         22  visit me in my office and not in my surgery, so I

         23  believed that the doctor would do everything she could

         24  to assist this person.  And whoever I had sent there

         25  before the war, during the war and after the war never

Page 771

          1  came back to me with any kind of complaint, or nobody

          2  ever told me that they were dissatisfied with the

          3  treatment they were given by this doctor.  And since

          4  she took care of these people and monitored them for a

          5  longer period of time, mostly she would schedule

          6  check-ups on a regular basis, and she would follow their

          7  improvement.  And as head of the Bosniak part of the

          8  municipality, Dr. Racic did once ask me to help with

          9  the transport of her patients to Zenica when she was

         10  unable to come to Vitez for these check-ups, and I did

         11  so whenever I could.  I gave her -- would give her an

         12  ambulance or some other means of transport to Zenica

         13  where she worked.

         14       Q.   Doctor, I think we may be having a

         15  translation problem.  I'm not asking you formally,

         16  under your medical guidelines, whether you wrote a note

         17  to -- for Witness A to go visit Dr. Sabic, I'm asking

         18  you -- because you told Witness A to go see Dr. Sabic

         19  and you saw Dr. Sabic at various periods during the war

         20  and after the war, did you ever ask Dr. Sabic for an

         21  update of your relative, Witness A?

         22       A.   As I said last time, Witness A, this woman,

         23  is a relative of mine.  I asked about her when

         24  Dr. Sabic would come to Stari Vitez, because her

         25  parents lived there.  And on one occasion she told me

Page 772

          1  that it was a very serious case and that it would take

          2  a long period of psychiatric treatment.

          3       Q.   Did she tell you why she would need a long

          4  period of psychiatric treatment?

          5       A.   She told me that she was seriously

          6  psycho-traumatised person.  We didn't go into the

          7  details because, as a doctor, as I'm a doctor of

          8  internal medicine, and Dr. Sabic's mother and father

          9  were my patients, and I had a lot of work, and people

         10  would come for examinations to see me very often.  For

         11  a time I was alone in Vitez.  The only doctor in the

         12  Bosniak part of Vitez for a time.

         13       Q.   Doctor, did Dr. Sabic indicate to you that

         14  Witness A was suffering from depression?

         15       A.   We didn't discuss that.  She told me that she

         16  was a serious case of psychic trauma.  No, we didn't go

         17  into any further details.

         18       Q.   Did Dr. Sabic give you a prognosis for

         19  Witness A?

         20       A.   That it would take long and that it would be

         21  very hard, the treatment.

         22       Q.   Did you ever see Witness A, personally, since

         23  May of 1993?

         24            JUDGE MUMBA:  That question has been put and

         25  answered.

Page 773

          1            MR. MISETIC:  Witness A?

          2            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  You asked the doctor

          3  whether he saw Witness A and he said no.

          4            MR. MISETIC:  Could the Court refresh my

          5  recollection as to what the answer was?

          6            JUDGE MUMBA:  It was, "No."  You asked him,

          7  after he had testified here, after the testimony of

          8  this witness.

          9            MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  I mean to ask from May

         10  1993 until the present, not from June 1998 till the

         11  present.

         12       Q.   Doctor, let me repeat the question for you:

         13  Have you seen Witness A since -- strike that.

         14            You've already testified that you saw her in

         15  the fall of 1993 sometime when you referred her to

         16  Dr. Sabic.

         17            After the day that you referred her to

         18  Dr. Sabic.  Did you ever have an opportunity to see her

         19  again?

         20       A.   I saw her sons and husband, but I don't

         21  recall having seen Person A after that.

         22       Q.   How frequently would you see her sons and

         23  husband?

         24       A.   I said, the last time I testified,

         25  (redacted)

Page 774

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Page 774 redacted

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 775

          1  (redacted)

          2  (redacted)

          3            MR. BLAXILL:  I'm sorry to interrupt, Your

          4  Honours, but one of our concerns that is arising is a

          5  variety of details appear to be coming out.  Now,

          6  obviously we're in open session, and a number of family

          7  details relating to A Person are being related, and

          8  they might cause a problem in respect of the protective

          9  measures.

         10            MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I don't have any

         11  objection with respect to this limited portion of the

         12  testimony with respect to her husband and sons.  If we

         13  go into closed session that's fine, all as long as we

         14  can go back into open session when I finish the

         15  questioning in this area.

         16            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  We can go into closed

         17  session since you're continuing with the family

         18  details.

         19            MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

         20            JUDGE MUMBA:  We can go into closed session.

         21  I understand the Registry says we can go into private

         22  session.  So they shut off the sound without pulling

         23  down the blinds.

         24                 (Private session)

         25   (redacted)

Page 776

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Page 776-779 redacted. Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 780

          1  (redacted)

          2  (redacted)

          3  (redacted)

          4  (redacted)

          5  (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7  (redacted)

          8  (redacted)

          9  (redacted)

         10  (redacted)

         11  (redacted)

         12  (redacted)

         13                 (Open session)

         14            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Misetic, we are in open

         15  session, so you can proceed.

         16            MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         17       Q.   Doctor, in this mass of people, were a large

         18  portion of these people refugees from the Vitez

         19  municipality?

         20       A.   I didn't understand the question.

         21       Q.   You answered one of my previous questions by

         22  saying that you were introduced to the staff of Medica

         23  and there was a mass of people, and I'm asking you, of

         24  that mass of people, was a large portion of those

         25  people refugees from the Vitez municipality?

Page 781

          1       A.   You mean I met the many people that worked at

          2  Medica?

          3       Q.   That worked at Medica or that were patients

          4  at Medica.

          5       A.   I don't know how many patients there were in

          6  Medica from Vitez.  I don't know that.  I know that

          7  there were a number of patients, but I don't know their

          8  exact number.

          9            In Medica, as far as I know, they offered

         10  medical aid and assistance to all those asking for it,

         11  and as far as I know, they would go around the area;

         12  for example, they had a programme of work by which they

         13  would move from one locality to the next, they had a

         14  special vehicle, and they said beforehand they would

         15  give notice of when they would be arriving, and they

         16  would call their patients and then they would take in

         17  all the people who turned up in addition to the main

         18  office that was in Zenica; and how many patients they

         19  had from Vitez and how many refugees they had, I really

         20  cannot say.

         21       Q.   Are you familiar with a person named Marijana

         22  Senjak?

         23       A.   Marijana Senjak.  I know Krizan Senjak but

         24  not Marijana Senjak.

         25       Q.   Do you know Nurka Babovic?

Page 782

          1       A.   I don't know which individual you mean.

          2  Perhaps I do know the person, but I can't say.  I can't

          3  remember.

          4       Q.   Do you know who the Mujo Lama at Medica was?

          5       A.   No, I don't.

          6       Q.   Do you know Sabiha Haskic?

          7       A.   I know a lot of Haskics, but I don't know

          8  which Haskic you have in mind.

          9       Q.   Do you know a Haskic that worked at Medica?

         10       A.   I don't know which individual with the

         11  surname Haskic works at Medica.

         12       Q.   How about an individual with the first name

         13  Sabiha at Medica?

         14       A.   The surname?

         15       Q.   Haskic.

         16       A.   I said that I know a lot of Haskics, but I

         17  don't know who Sabiha Haskic is.  I never contacted

         18  Sabiha Haskic, had any contacts with a Sabiha Haskic

         19  when talking about Medica.

         20       Q.   Doctor, are you familiar with the term "Post

         21  Traumatic Stress Disorder"?

         22       A.   Post Traumatic Distress Syndrome, yes.

         23       Q.   Where did you learn about Post Traumatic

         24  Stress Disorder?

         25       A.   While I studied medicine.  I have read

Page 783

          1  professional literature on the subject and that tests

          2  were made on the American soldiers in Vietnam, Post

          3  Traumatic Distress Syndrome and some other studies and

          4  reports which I received as professional literature.

          5       Q.   You stated earlier that you were a specialist

          6  in industrial medicine when you testified in June.  As

          7  part of that speciality, did you treat people with Post

          8  Traumatic Stress Disorder?

          9       A.   I said that I graduated in 1984, internal

         10  medicine, and later on, I went on to specialise in

         11  industrial medicine and I worked with workers who were

         12  employed at special work posts and had jobs and

         13  specific conditions, workers working in the explosives

         14  factory or fuel departments for the production of

         15  various fuels.

         16       Q.   Fine, Doctor.  As I said, you indicated you

         17  worked in the field of industrial medicine, and I'm

         18  asking you, in that field, did you treat people with

         19  Post Traumatic Stress Disorder or symptoms of Post

         20  Traumatic Stress Disorder?

         21       A.   You asked me that last time as well.  We did

         22  not have, in our factory, people of that kind suffering

         23  from Post Traumatic Distress Syndrome.  There was an

         24  explosion in 1985, but we did not have any cases of

         25  PTSD.  Because there were systematic regular check-ups

Page 784

          1  for all the employees, this was compulsory by law, and

          2  for each individual worker, in addition to the

          3  examination I would conduct for these particular jobs,

          4  they would undergo an examination by a

          5  neuropsychiatrist and an eye doctor and, if necessary,

          6  other specialists as well, and we would draw up reports

          7  every year on the results of these periodical regular

          8  check-ups for all the employees working in the Vitez

          9  factories, and you can receive copies of these reports,

         10  if you wish, with my signature on them.

         11       Q.   Doctor, I'm interested in how you determined

         12  that you didn't have any of these cases.  What

         13  methodology did you use to evaluate a person to

         14  determine whether or not they had Post Traumatic Stress

         15  Disorder?

         16       A.   Well, all these doubtful cases were examined

         17  by a neuropsychiatrist and his opinion was final.  All

         18  the cases where there was any doubt, all the cases that

         19  we thought might be suffering from psychiatric

         20  disorders, we would send these individuals to

         21  consultations with psychiatrists and psychologists; and

         22  if we receive a positive answer when they did the

         23  psycho tests and if the psychiatrist ascertained that

         24  these individuals suffered from psychological disorders

         25  or were traumatised psychologically in any way, then

Page 785

          1  all these workers would be sent to have their labour

          2  capabilities assessed.  They wouldn't carry on with

          3  their jobs until they had undergone these examinations

          4  to see whether they were capable or not, and this was

          5  normal standard procedure according to the rules and

          6  the law.

          7       Q.   Okay.  But, Doctor, you did the initial

          8  intake to determine whether or not these were doubtful

          9  cases for you to refer on to the neuropsychiatrist, and

         10  what I'm asking you is:  In that initial intake

         11  procedure, what factors did you look at -- what was

         12  your methodology in determining whether or not this

         13  person had the symptoms of PTSD which would necessitate

         14  a referral to a neuropsychiatrist?

         15       A.   I said that we did not have in our reports

         16  cases of this kind, but wherever there was any doubt

         17  that -- because at these jobs, you had to have

         18  completely healthy individuals working there, and we

         19  would hold consultations and this was normal, standard

         20  medical procedure, that a psychological test must be

         21  carried out, we consulted psychologists to see what

         22  type of disorder we were dealing with and whether that

         23  particular individual could carry on with his

         24  particular job.

         25       Q.   I understand that, Doctor, and that's my

Page 786

          1  point.  Are you saying that you would only look at the

          2  person and, based on your intuition or gut feeling, you

          3  would refer them or not refer them, or are you saying

          4  there were specific criteria that you were given to

          5  make an evaluation and then make a referral?

          6       A.   Sir, let me explain one thing to you.  I

          7  examined each individual from head to toe.  That is a

          8  basic examination.  And it is basics in medicine that

          9  you take the general clinical picture of each

         10  individual to see whether he suffers from insomnia,

         11  whether he has nightmares, whether he has bouts of

         12  perspiration.  So all these are standard symptoms that

         13  we look at.  And if any of these symptoms deviated from

         14  the norm, then we would, by law, consult a

         15  psychiatrist.

         16       Q.   That's what I'm trying to get at, Doctor.  So

         17  could you tell us what specifically were the

         18  symptoms -- what were the symptoms themselves?  I

         19  understand you did your job and you did it the best you

         20  could, but I'm asking you to list what the symptoms

         21  were that you would evaluate, and based on your

         22  evaluation of those symptoms, you would make a referral

         23  on to the neuropsychiatrist?

         24       A.   We would send them to specialists -- for

         25  example, if we thought somebody had become a chronic

Page 787

          1  alcoholic, if he failed to turn up regularly at work,

          2  we would look into these reasons to see what was amiss;

          3  and on the basis of their case histories, if they had

          4  any fears, anxieties, difficulty in sleeping, if the

          5  individual heard noises, if they suffered from

          6  hallucinations of any kind, and if they did, we would

          7  send these individuals for a psycho test and for

          8  psychiatric treatment.

          9       Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  With respect to those

         10  symptoms, were those symptoms official symptoms that

         11  were published in Yugoslavia or some place else by a

         12  medical association in terms of that this was the

         13  clinical evaluation or these were the symptoms of PTSD,

         14  or were you just generally looking at people's

         15  psychological and psychiatric health and then making

         16  referrals?

         17       A.   I examined the individuals.  I would take the

         18  particulars and their case history.  We had a team of

         19  people in the factory that dealt with preventive

         20  medicine.  I was the president of the team.  There was

         21  the social worker, there was a sociologist, and there

         22  was a psychologist on the team.  For each individual

         23  person, for each individual case, my colleague and

         24  myself, and she was a specialist in industrial

         25  medicine, I was president of the group, and we would

Page 788

          1  see what should be done, what preventive measures

          2  should be taken to stop any further deterioration in

          3  the health of the employees.

          4       Q.   Doctor, in Yugoslavia, were there

          5  professional associations or state institutions that

          6  established standards of care for physicians?

          7       A.   Please, sir.  We would get certificates

          8  guaranteeing that we could perform our work.  If I

          9  graduated from the school of medicine, I would get a

         10  diploma.  If I graduated from the specialist training

         11  course, I would again receive a diploma allowing me to

         12  perform my work.

         13       Q.   I think we're having a problem understanding

         14  each other.  I'm not referring to your qualifications,

         15  I'm saying, in the field of medicine, with respect to

         16  illnesses, diseases, any other problems that a person

         17  would have, were there professional associations or

         18  state institutions that would evaluate illnesses,

         19  diseases, et cetera, and establish criteria for

         20  physicians to look at and to be able to make an

         21  official diagnosis that was approved by the physicians

         22  or the professional association or the state

         23  institution?

         24       A.   (No interpretation)

         25       Q.   I don't know whether you're familiar with

Page 789

          1  organisations like the American Medical Association or

          2  British Society of Psychologists, I believe it's

          3  called, these medical associations that meet to

          4  establish guidelines for particular --

          5            MR. BLAXILL:  Pardon my interruption, Your

          6  Honours, but there appears to be no interpretation to

          7  the previous answer, according to my machine.

          8            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  The transcript does show

          9  "No interpretation."  I wonder why.  Maybe Mr. Misetic

         10  can repeat the question because you seem to have a

         11  problem with the witness identifying what it is that

         12  you're trying to ask him about, so if you can just

         13  repeat the question?

         14            MR. MISETIC:  The problem is going to be,

         15  Your Honour, that his answer didn't match my question

         16  to begin with, so I don't know whether it's going to

         17  help.  I'm doing a follow-up question anyway, if

         18  counsel doesn't mind, I'm still on the same topic,

         19  trying to explain it to him.

         20       Q.   You are familiar with organisations like the

         21  American Medical Association and the British Society of

         22  Psychologists?  Were there similar organisations or

         23  state institutions in Yugoslavia that established

         24  criteria for physicians to use in treating patients; in

         25  other words, for example, Post Traumatic Stress

Page 790

          1  Disorder, the Yugoslavia Society of Physicians has

          2  established that these are the six or seven or eight or

          3  ten criteria that a physician should evaluate, and if

          4  ten are present, the person has Post Traumatic Stress

          5  Disorder?

          6       A.   In the former Yugoslavia, we had, at a local

          7  level, an association of physicians, and then we had an

          8  Association of Physicians of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but

          9  they did not have the function of the type of

         10  association in America and Switzerland.  We had special

         11  teams, and when we would examine individuals, as -- my

         12  particular speciality was prevention.  If I doubted, if

         13  I had any doubts, then this would be verified by a

         14  psychiatrist or psychiatric hospital.  After that, they

         15  would -- the team to assess the working capability of

         16  these individuals would come to a conclusion; and our

         17  criteria, for the most part, we used Western

         18  literature.  We based our criteria on the criteria

         19  found in Western literature.

         20            Now, you asked me about the criteria.  Well,

         21  we, of course, read various medical journals and

         22  received information, but it was my job to have

         23  doubts.  It was never official that that was so.  This

         24  had to be ascertained either by sending the individual

         25  to hospital, usually the patient was hospitalised, and

Page 791

          1  that is what we do today as well.  So these people are

          2  sent to a psychiatric hospital and their state is

          3  followed up for a certain period of time, at least 15

          4  days.  And so a team of physicians working in the

          5  hospital, officially they would examine the individual,

          6  come to a -- arrive at a diagnosis, and this is the

          7  diagnosis that a patient would receive when being

          8  discharged from the hospital.  That's the system.

          9       Q.   I think we're getting a little off track.

         10  With respect to the local unions of physicians and the

         11  union of physicians at the level of the Republic of

         12  Bosnia and Herzegovina, did either of those

         13  institutions actually establish guidelines for you and

         14  other physicians in the practice of medicine?

         15       A.   The Association of Physicians of

         16  Bosnia-Herzegovina, or our municipality of Travnik,

         17  this is what we did -- an individual physician, for

         18  example, I listened to a lecture by Mrs. Racic Sabic

         19  about Post Traumatic Distress Syndrome, she held a

         20  lecture for the physicians of Travnik municipality, and

         21  I attended that lecture which was held at the Kruscica

         22  Motel.  So she would hold a set of lectures for the

         23  physicians of the Travnik region and she would discuss

         24  the criteria and the treatment for the disease.  She

         25  was invited.  She was a physician working in Zenica.

Page 792

          1  She is a member of the Association of the Physicians of

          2  Zenica, and she was invited by our region to hold a

          3  lecture of this kind because that is her speciality.

          4  You can ask her for a copy of her lecture.  I attended

          5  the lecture, and she presented this specialist lecture

          6  for physicians.

          7            She told us her visions of Post Traumatic

          8  Stress Syndromes, how to look at the disease, how to

          9  treat it, and that is how the Association of Physicians

         10  still function in Bosnia-Herzegovina today.

         11       Q.   Let's talk about this lecture on Post

         12  Traumatic Stress Disorder.

         13            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Misetic, we've reached the

         14  time when we should have our break this morning.

         15            MR. MISETIC:  That's fine, Your Honour.  It's

         16  an appropriate time to break.

         17            JUDGE MUMBA:  Do you still need more time?

         18            MR. MISETIC:  Pardon me?

         19            JUDGE MUMBA:  You still have more questions

         20  for the witness?

         21            MR. MISETIC:   Yes.  We're going into a new

         22  field, and this is an appropriate time to break, Your

         23  Honour.

         24            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Trial Chamber shall break

         25  for 30 minutes.  We shall resume at 11.30.

Page 793

          1                 --- Recess taken at 10.56 a.m.

          2                 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

          3            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, Mr. Misetic.  You

          4  indicated that you still have a lot of questions for

          5  this witness.

          6            MR. MISETIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

          7            JUDGE MUMBA:  But I'm afraid that we're going

          8  into general issues instead of evidence regarding the

          9  treatment received by Witness A, because this doctor

         10  didn't deal with Witness A.  So what other areas are

         11  you intending to cover?

         12            MR. MISETIC:  These are foundational areas

         13  for both Witness A and for the other experts in the

         14  case.  Otherwise --

         15            JUDGE MUMBA:  Please keep to the limits.

         16            MR. MISETIC:  I intend to keep to it.

         17            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

         18            MR. MISETIC:  Actually, Your Honour, also for

         19  the record, this is dealing specifically with lectures

         20  of what appears to be the treating physician on the

         21  topic in issue, and since we don't have the treating

         22  physician here this is the next best thing.

         23            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, you may proceed.

         24            MR. MISETIC:

         25       Q.   Dr. Mujenznovic, you indicated that you

Page 794

          1  attended lectures given by Dr. Kadrija Sabic about Post

          2  Traumatic Stress Disorder in the city of Travnik; is

          3  that correct?

          4       A.   No, it is not.  I said that Dr. Kadrija

          5  Sabic-Haracic, at the invitation of the doctors'

          6  section of Travnik, did deliver a lecture, in the

          7  Kruscica Motel in Vitez, for all physicians.  The topic

          8  of the lecture being Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

          9       Q.   And you said you attended that lecture?

         10       A.   Yes, I attended, and I was one of the

         11  organisers -- or, rather, sponsors of that gathering

         12  among the lecturers, because Dr. Haracic-Sabic was not

         13  the only lecturer.  There were others on other topical

         14  issues in medicine.

         15       Q.   Doctor, I want to clarify the record here.

         16       A.   I beg your pardon.  With respect to this

         17  topic --

         18       Q.   Doctor, I need to clarify something.

         19       A.   -- experience were is also presented --

         20       Q.   You were referring to the doctor as

         21  Dr. Kadrija Sabic-Haracic, do you mean Dr. Kadrija

         22  Racic Sabic?  Thank you.

         23       A.    Yes.  On the same topic, a lecture was

         24  delivered in Kruscica, in this motel in Vitez by

         25  Dr. Dzenana Cvjetic, a neuropsychiatrist from Travnik.

Page 795

          1  Her lecture was devoted to the same topic, and on the

          2  same day, for all physicians, be they general

          3  practitioners or specialists in various fields.

          4       Q.   And when was this lecture given?

          5       A.   I'm afraid I can't tell you the exact date,

          6  but it was in 1995.  But it was held and this can be

          7  easily verified.

          8       Q.   You say 1995.  First, did Dr. Sabic indicate

          9  why this was an important topic and when, if you can,

         10  so I don't have to ask you too many questions, when she

         11  started doing work in this area?

         12       A.   I really don't know that.

         13       Q.   That's fine.

         14       A.   I don't know.

         15       Q.   You're familiar with what the contents of her

         16  lecture are; are you not?  What the contents were, I

         17  should say.

         18       A.   No.  I listened, as did the other doctors

         19  present, to the lectures of these two doctors on this

         20  subject.

         21       Q.   You listened because you wanted to increase

         22  your own knowledge in the profession; correct?

         23       A.   It is customary for the physicians'

         24  association to invite certain doctors, certain

         25  specialists to discuss the most topical issues in

Page 796

          1  medicine, so that experiences, observations, personal

          2  experiences, the experiences in which that particular

          3  doctor is employed may be presented.

          4            These meetings were customary among doctors

          5  of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Then they would go from one

          6  town to another.  Every month such lectures would be

          7  organised in another town to discuss the latest issues

          8  in various areas of medicine.

          9       Q.   And Post Traumatic Stress Disorder was

         10  topical, I presume, because of the war and the effects

         11  it was having on the citizens and residents of

         12  Bosnia-Herzegovina?

         13       A.   At the time it was a topical issue, because

         14  the doctors came across difficulties of this kind among

         15  their patients, and they wanted to hear from somebody

         16  who was most competent in that field and who could

         17  present views as to the way in which those patients

         18  should be treated, tell us how they treated them and

         19  what the results were, how successful that treatment

         20  was.

         21            The substance of the lecture was that; that

         22  is, to familiarise all the doctors present with these

         23  things and to advise doctors, who were not so familiar

         24  with these matters, to refer to these two doctors.  One

         25  was in Travnik and the other in Zenica.

Page 797

          1       Q.   You said that they were talking about how

          2  these people should be treated.  What did they say

          3  about how these people should be treated?

          4  Specifically, what did Dr. Sabic say about how these

          5  people should be treated?

          6       A.   You see, I can tell you in broad lines that

          7  the treatment is protracted and difficult, that

          8  psychotherapy is required, together with medication.

          9  That would be a global answer.  As for the details, I

         10  wouldn't go into them, because I don't think I'm

         11  competent enough to talk about these things.

         12            The main aim was to draw our attention that

         13  there was, in Travnik, Dr. Dzenana Cvjetic; and in

         14  Zenica, Dr. Sabic-Haracic, who said that she has been

         15  working on these problems for some time now in the

         16  Medica humanitarian organisation.

         17       Q.   Just so we're clear, doctor, I'm asking you

         18  to be an expert in the area, I'm asking you to recall

         19  the contents of that lecture, on that particular date

         20  when you attended, with respect to what Dr. Sabic had

         21  to say.

         22       A.   I think I told you the substance of it.

         23       Q.   That's correct.  With respect to that

         24  lecture, did Dr. Sabic indicate what proportion of the

         25  population suffers or was suffering from PTSD, from

Page 798

          1  Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

          2       A.   I'm afraid I can't tell you exactly, but they

          3  did say that she was very busy, that she had a lot of

          4  work, that the treatment, in some cases, was more

          5  difficult than in others, that there were differences

          6  regarding the consequences.  I don't remember the

          7  percentage that she cited.  I don't think she did

          8  mention any names.  She didn't mention any specific

          9  name in her lecture.

         10       Q.   What did Dr. Sabic tell you to look for?

         11  What symptoms in a patient that could indicate Post

         12  Traumatic Stress Disorder?

         13       A.   Do I have to answer that question?  Because

         14  it's as if I was asking -- answering questions in

         15  school.

         16       Q.   I'll ask the questions, you answer the

         17  questions, and if there's an objection --

         18       A.   It's as if you were testing me in my

         19  knowledge of medicine.

         20       Q.   Let's be perfectly clear.  I don't want to

         21  offend you.  I'm not asking you about your knowledge of

         22  an area, I understand you're not a specialist in the

         23  area.  I'm asking you because you're a witness, not in

         24  your capacity as a doctor, what you recall about

         25  Dr. Sabic's words.  There's a difference in what I'm

Page 799

          1  asking you, and I'm asking you these questions not to

          2  ask about your knowledge, but to ask about Dr. Sabic's

          3  knowledge.

          4            So could you please tell us what Dr. Sabic

          5  told you what to look for in trying to evaluate whether

          6  a person has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

          7       A.   Dr. Sabic delivered an extensive lecture

          8  about her experiences, and she said that individuals

          9  had come to see her, as well as -- see her personally,

         10  as well as through the Medica humanitarian

         11  organisation.  Among the symptoms she mentioned were

         12  fear, nightmares, insecurity, feelings of there being

         13  no aim in life, that people had disturbed

         14  personalities, that they find it very difficult to

         15  adjust to normal life, that they felt a certain shame,

         16  that they were ashamed of their very selves as we like

         17  to say, that they feel when they meet someone, that

         18  people were only thing about what they felt rather than

         19  any other characteristic that they had as individuals.

         20  So those were the symptoms that she mentioned in most

         21  part.  That people just couldn't fit in.  They couldn't

         22  resume a normal life, that they felt everything was a

         23  heavy burden.  And as in Bosnia, most people,

         24  regardless of ethnicity, have been brought up in a

         25  patriarchal spirit.  People are very closely linked to

Page 800

          1  their families.

          2            As for soldiers, she would say that some of

          3  them would commit suicide, just like that, without any

          4  immediate cause.  They would simply withdraw, stop

          5  communicating with their surroundings and they would

          6  suddenly commit suicide.  And the environment in which

          7  those people lived, knew them as exemplary citizens,

          8  and they just couldn't understand what was happening,

          9  because such tendencies were not widespread in Bosnia

         10  before.  A normal person who had a job, his family,

         11  that simply everything was breaking up, and this was an

         12  added difficulty to the already difficult situation for

         13  that particular individual.

         14            The doctor said that the treatment was

         15  difficult, that rehabilitation needed to be -- needed a

         16  great deal of time, that they needed encouragement,

         17  that they needed to be told that they were not alone in

         18  this situation, that they needed to be told that other

         19  people too had gone through similar difficulties, that

         20  one had to continue to live to try and restore their

         21  stability, their families, the normal course of life

         22  for the benefit of themselves and their families.  This

         23  is a very rough rendering of what she said.

         24            I can assure you that the doctor's

         25  presentation was far better, more precise, with greater

Page 801

          1  detail, that that is not my particular field of

          2  interest.  For me, this was sufficient to be able to

          3  refer people to the right place as soon as I noticed

          4  that they needed treatment of this kind.

          5       Q.   Doctor, just to know, I appreciate your

          6  effort in recalling your memory, and that's all we're

          7  trying to establish here.

          8            With respect to the treatment that you talked

          9  about, what specific types of treatments did she note

         10  could be used with patients of Post Traumatic Stress

         11  Disorder?

         12       A.   I have already said that the most important

         13  part of the treatment is psychotherapy, combined with

         14  certain medicines, pharmaceuticals, which would repress

         15  fear, which would provide relaxation.  But the main

         16  treatment was psychotherapy.

         17       Q.   Did she talk about what they did in

         18  psychotherapy?  What types of treatment within

         19  psychotherapy did they use?

         20       A.   I cannot reproduce what she said.

         21       Q.   To the best of your recollection.

         22       A.   I would suggest there's no problem in you

         23  obtaining a copy of that lecture.  The doctor would be

         24  glad to give you a copy, I'm sure, if you ask for it.

         25       Q.   On the odd chance that we don't get a copy of

Page 802

          1  that document, can you just tell us what your

          2  recollection is about what types of treatment within

          3  psychotherapy she said were employed?

          4       A.   I don't remember.  I have already indicated,

          5  in broad lines, to encourage people, to talk to them at

          6  length, to approach them very gradually in the

          7  psychotherapeutic sense, not to go to the event

          8  immediately, but to start in a roundabout way, in very

          9  broad lines, and only gradually to focus in on the

         10  problem itself.

         11            JUDGE MUMBA:  We've heard that before.  We're

         12  going into too many --

         13            MR. MISETIC:

         14       Q.   Sir, you testified earlier that you

         15  examined -- I should say you met with Witness A

         16  sometime, you believe, in the fall of 1993, perhaps the

         17  winter of 1994, at which time you referred her to

         18  Dr. Sabic?

         19       A.   Yes.  I said that Person A came, accompanied

         20  by someone, I can't remember who it was, to see me.

         21  That is what I said.  I was not in my surgery in which

         22  I used to work, but I was in an office -- in my

         23  office.  That's what I said.

         24       Q.   But my point is that you did meet with her

         25  and refer her to Dr. Sabic?  I'm just trying to --

Page 803

          1            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Misetic, we're wasting a

          2  lot of time in repetitions.  It was there before, it's

          3  been there this morning.  Please.

          4            MR. MISETIC:  Let me just wrap up then.

          5       Q.   Doctor, you testified that at that referral

          6  meeting that she was incoherent, that she cried, that

          7  she couldn't put together coherent sentences.  Is there

          8  anything else you recall about that meeting in terms of

          9  the symptoms that she had, especially now looking back,

         10  in terms of what you know about the symptoms of Post

         11  Traumatic Stress Disorder?

         12       A.   I can tell you now, and I think that is also

         13  what I said in my previous testimony, that I was, after

         14  all, surprised by the woman's appearance.  She had

         15  completely changed.  She had become deformed.  She was

         16  a very good looking woman, a very attractive woman, a

         17  beautiful woman, in her middle age, a middle-aged

         18  woman, who had worked in Vitez as a salesperson.  She

         19  dressed very elegantly, and who was always very neat.

         20  So it was a shock when I saw her, for me.  I asked

         21  Person A, "What on earth happened to you?"

         22            As I was treating her parents and her family,

         23  I told you that we were related, she tried to tell me

         24  that some terrible things had happened to her.  I went

         25  on to say that she started telling me what had happened

Page 804

          1  to her, but after a sentence or two she started

          2  weeping, and I may have spent about half an hour with

          3  her.  I told her that there was a doctor, Kadrija

          4  Haracic, and that I would personally call her up by

          5  phone and ask her to receive her.  I also had the

          6  telephone number in the neuropsychiatric department and

          7  her home number, and I called the doctor and asked her

          8  to see her immediately, because I said that this was an

          9  urgent psychiatric case.  After that I did not see

         10  Person A.

         11       Q.   You said urgent psychiatric case and I

         12  understand the events of what happened, but I'm asking

         13  you now to talk specifically about symptoms, especially

         14  since you have an understanding of what the symptoms of

         15  Post Traumatic Stress Disorder are.  Can you recall if

         16  any of those symptoms were present at the time you

         17  referred her?

         18            If you want, I can give you some examples and

         19  you can giver me a "yes" or "no" answer, if that will

         20  make it easier.

         21       A.   Mrs. A, as I already said, shocked me by her

         22  appearance.  She appeared frightened, exhausted.

         23  Mrs. A, as I said, when she started telling me what it

         24  was, she would say, "Doctor, you don't know what I've

         25  been through.  You don't know what happened to me.  I

Page 805

          1  don't know what to do.  I want to kill myself.  I'm

          2  ashamed.  I can't sleep, I have nightmares.  I can't

          3  calm down.  I cannot -- I cannot talk to people.

          4  Everything irritates me."

          5            I told you that she thought everyone was

          6  staring at her, and that everybody was accusing her of

          7  something, that her sons are already big, grown up,

          8  (redacted)

          9  (redacted)

         10            MR. BLAXILL:  Pardon the interruption, but

         11  once again we're having concerns here regarding the

         12  protective measures situation.  We're in open session

         13  again.  This is delving back into sufficient family

         14  relationship that I think could lead to unfortunate, if

         15  inadvertent, identification of the person concerned.

         16            MR. MISETIC:  Then I just ask the witness not

         17  to speak --

         18       Q.   I'm just asking you about symptoms, Doctor,

         19  so please don't any comments about the husband or the

         20  sons.

         21            Do you recall any other symptoms?

         22       A.   Look, if as a doctor with some 20 years of

         23  experience behind me, in any profession, including my

         24  own, there are many things that one knows from

         25  experience and that I could see.  If I called up the

Page 806

          1  doctor to ask her to receive her immediately, that the

          2  woman wanted to commit suicide, then I think I've told

          3  you enough.

          4            MR. MISETIC:  May I have just a second, Your

          5  Honour?

          6            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

          7            MR. MISETIC:  I'm just going to consult.

          8  Your Honour, we've completed our cross-examination of

          9  the witness.

         10            JUDGE MUMBA:  All right.  Re-examination?

         11            MR. BLAXILL:  I do have a few the matters,

         12  Your Honours.  They will be brief.

         13                 Re-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

         14       Q.   Firstly, I would just like to confirm the

         15  time period when this encounter with the person

         16  concerned took place.  You stated in your testimony, I

         17  believe in June and again this morning, that that was

         18  late 1993 or early 1994; is that correct?

         19       A.   Yes.  I think it was the second half of 1993,

         20  that period, the latter half of '93.  The autumn of

         21  '93.

         22       Q.   In point of fact, the specialist lecture you

         23  attended in relation to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

         24  itself took place later in 1995; is that correct?

         25       A.   Yes.  In 1995, two physician specialists.  I

Page 807

          1  mentioned Dr. Kadrija Sabic Haracic and Dr. Dzenana

          2  Cvjetic.

          3       Q.   At the end of 1993, did you, when you

          4  referred the person to your psychiatry colleague, did

          5  you offer any kind of formal diagnosis or assessment of

          6  that person when you referred her?

          7       A.   I promised Person A that I would personally

          8  contact the doctor.  I was not in my surgery, I was in

          9  an official room, and at the time, I was President of

         10  the Wartime Presidency, and I said that I would do

         11  everything to try and locate her and to have her

         12  receive Person A for treatment, but I did not give any

         13  official referral note for a hospital because I did not

         14  have the papers for that at that time.

         15       Q.   Did you offer any diagnosis yourself or a

         16  medical opinion on the condition of Person A to the

         17  doctor to whom you referred her?

         18       A.   I think that I have already stated, and I

         19  conveyed this to the doctor, that the person in

         20  question was in a very difficult psychological state,

         21  distressed, and that she had tendencies towards suicide

         22  and that she should be treated.

         23       Q.   Did you, sir, after that date, have any part

         24  in her treatment?

         25       A.   No.  No, I did not, and I don't consider

Page 808

          1  myself to be competent for treating individuals of that

          2  kind.

          3       Q.   Doctor, a few moments ago, you made reference

          4  to the person to whom you referred and you used the

          5  words "Kadrija Haracic."  Can you perhaps confirm again

          6  the name of the psychiatrist to whom you referred or

          7  clarify if there's any confusion over the name?

          8            MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I believe I've

          9  already clarified that.

         10            MR. BLAXILL:  I'm sorry.

         11            MR. MISETIC:  I asked:  You were using this

         12  name.  Do you mean Kadrija Racic Sabic?  And he

         13  answered "Yes."

         14            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Blaxill, please continue.

         15       A.   The person is a woman, I think she was born

         16  in 1952.  She is a woman, she's not a man.  She is

         17  Haracic Sabic.  Her maiden name is Haracic and her

         18  surname, her husband's surname, is Sabic.  I think that

         19  that is clear enough.

         20            MR. BLAXILL:  Thank you very much.

         21       A.   She has three daughters.  What more can I

         22  say?

         23            MR. BLAXILL:  You have amply answered that

         24  question.  Thank you, Doctor.

         25            MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour --

Page 809

          1            MR. BLAXILL:  I was going to say -- may I

          2  just say that that concludes my re-examination, Your

          3  Honours.  Thank you.

          4            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.

          5            MR. MISETIC:  I think we need clarification

          6  because he made that mistake before, and I asked him

          7  whether that is Kadrija Racic Sabic and he indicated

          8  "Yes," and I would just like to know whether that is

          9  still the case.

         10            JUDGE MUMBA:  With regard to which one?  The

         11  last name?

         12            MR. MISETIC:  I just want to avoid a

         13  situation where the Prosecution comes in at the end and

         14  says now we're talking about another person, not

         15  Kadrija Racic Sabic but Kadrija Haracic Sabic and that

         16  that might be somebody else, and I would just like to

         17  make sure that we're clear.

         18            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Go ahead.  Go ahead.

         19            MR. MISETIC:

         20       Q.   Doctor, on two occasions now you've used the

         21  name Kadrija Racic Sabic. You used that name when you

         22  testified in June of this year --

         23       A.   I never said Racic, I said Haracic.

         24       Q.   Would you like to see a copy of your

         25  transcript, Doctor?

Page 810

          1            JUDGE MUMBA:  There could have been a

          2  spelling mistake.

          3       A.   Please.  I have always referred to the person

          4  as Haracic, Haracic, and not Racic, but Haracic.

          5            MR. MISETIC:  Can I pull up the transcript

          6  here in this case where I asked him not 45 minutes

          7  ago -- okay.  Just as long as, for the Court, it

          8  doesn't matter.  That's fine with me.  Thank you, Your

          9  Honour.

         10       A.   I really don't know what you have in your

         11  transcript, but I kept saying Sabic Haracic and I said

         12  that her maiden name was Haracic, and she is married

         13  and her married surname is Sabic.

         14            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you very much, Doctor.

         15  Any reasons why the witness should not be released?

         16  Anything from the Prosecution?

         17            MR. BLAXILL:  Your Honours, I think certainly

         18  based on the -- what we are aware of the Defence case

         19  at this point in time, our comment would be "No."  We

         20  would see no objection.  Of course, things could

         21  change.

         22            MR. MISETIC:  We have no objection, Your

         23  Honour.

         24            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you very much, Witness.

         25  You are released.  You are free to go.

Page 811

          1                 (The witness withdrew)

          2            JUDGE MUMBA:  Mr. Misetic, we can continue

          3  before the lunch break.  We have some twenty minutes.

          4            MR. MISETIC:  That would be fine, Your

          5  Honour.

          6            JUDGE MUMBA:  We are going into closed

          7  session.

          8            Who is your next witness?

          9            MR. MISETIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honour,

         10  Witness A.

         11            JUDGE MUMBA:  So we are going into closed

         12  session with all the blinds down.

         13                 (Closed session)

         14  (redacted)

         15  (redacted)

         16  (redacted)

         17  (redacted)

         18  (redacted)

         19  (redacted)

         20  (redacted)

         21  (redacted)

         22  (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted)

Page 812

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 812-862 redacted. Closed session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 863

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5                    (Private Session)

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 863-868 redacted. Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 869

          1  (redacted)

          2  (redacted)

          3  (redacted)

          4  (redacted)

          5  (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7  (redacted)

          8  (redacted)

          9  (redacted)

         10  (redacted)

         11                 (Open session)

         12            JUDGE MUMBA:  Doctor, will you please make

         13  the solemn declaration?

         14            THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I solemnly

         15  declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

         16  and nothing but the truth.

         17            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.  Please proceed,

         18  Mr. Misetic.

         19                 WITNESS:  JEFFREY NELS YOUNGGREN

         20                 Examined by Mr. Misetic:

         21       Q.   Witness, would you please state your name for

         22  the record?

         23       A.   Jeffrey Nels Younggren, Y-O-U-N-G-G-R-E-N.

         24       Q.   What is your residence?

         25       A.   I live in Rancho Palos Verdes, California, in

Page 870

          1  the United States.

          2       Q.   What is your occupation?

          3       A.   I am a clinical and forensic psychologist.

          4       Q.   Where did you receive your education?

          5       A.   I received my education at the University of

          6  Arizona, Tucson, Arizona, in the United States, my

          7  master's degree in psychology there and my Ph.D. in

          8  clinical psychology there.

          9       Q.   Have you ever served in any military?

         10       A.   Yes, I have.

         11       Q.   Which military did you serve in?

         12       A.   I served 29 years as a commissioned officer

         13  in the United States Army.

         14       Q.   Have you ever received a medal while you

         15  served in the United States Army?

         16       A.   I most recently received my second

         17  Meritorious Service Medal for contributions to the

         18  army.

         19       Q.   What is your current role with the United

         20  States military?

         21       A.   I serve as United States Army Reserve

         22  clinical psychology consultant to the Surgeon General

         23  of the army.

         24       Q.   Have you also received any medals in that

         25  capacity?

Page 871

          1       A.   My most recent decoration was for some

          2  contributions that I made in terms of credentials and

          3  qualifications for psychologists in the army.

          4       Q.   To be kind to the interpreters, Doctor, you

          5  can take the earphones off, and if you want to move it

          6  to Channel 6 just so that you realise that there is a

          7  translation delay between my question and your answer.

          8       A.   Thank you.

          9       Q.   How long have you been licensed to practice

         10  psychology?

         11       A.   Since 1976.

         12       Q.   In what state are you licensed?

         13       A.   In the State of California.

         14       Q.   Are you board certified?

         15       A.   Yes.  I hold my boards from the American

         16  Board of Professional Psychology in clinical

         17  psychology.

         18       Q.   Can you explain what board certification

         19  means and why it's important?

         20       A.   Board certification is an examination-based

         21  process where you submit yourself to peer review,

         22  demonstrating a higher level of expertise to your peers

         23  that qualifies you for recognition of advanced status,

         24  if you will.

         25       Q.   What is your area of expertise?

Page 872

          1       A.   I currently serve as both a clinical and a

          2  forensic psychologist.  I specialise in the forensic

          3  aspects of psychology, in issues having to do with

          4  ethics, standard of care, and trauma and memory work,

          5  and in my clinical practice, I have an outpatient

          6  clinical practice, where I see individuals in

          7  psychotherapy.

          8       Q.   Are you board certified in any particular

          9  area?

         10       A.   I hold my boards in clinical psychology.

         11       Q.   What is the American Psychological

         12  Association?

         13       A.   The American Psychological Association is an

         14  organisation of psychologists in the United States of

         15  America, it's a voluntary organisation and it has

         16  multiple purposes, but it's designed to integrate the

         17  profession of psychology.

         18       Q.   Have you received any honours from the

         19  American Psychological Association?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   Which honours have you received?

         22       A.   Two years ago, I was voted the status of

         23  Fellow of the American Psychological Association for my

         24  contributions to psychology.

         25       Q.   How does one become a Fellow in the American

Page 873

          1  Psychological Association?

          2       A.   Approximately 5 per cent of the membership

          3  receives the status of Fellow.  It is a peer review

          4  process where your credentials and contributions are

          5  reviewed at various levels in the organisation and

          6  eventually voted on by the Council of Representatives

          7  which is the governing body of the American

          8  Psychological Association.

          9       Q.   Do you know how many members the American

         10  Psychological Association has?

         11       A.   Approximately 65.000 members.

         12       Q.   Do you have any journal affiliations?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   Which journal affiliations do you have?

         15       A.   I am a consulting editor for the Journal of

         16  Professional Psychology - Research and Practice

         17  published by the American Psychological Association.

         18       Q.   Do you have any academic experience?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   What academic experience do you have?

         21       A.   I am currently an assistant clinical

         22  professor of medical psychology at the University of

         23  California, Los Angeles.

         24       Q.   Doctor, what is clinical psychology?

         25       A.   Clinical psychology is that aspect of

Page 874

          1  psychology that is applied and is generally designed to

          2  assess and/or treat psychological issues and

          3  developmental issues or problems.

          4       Q.   So that means -- does that mean that you are

          5  treating people?

          6       A.   You treat people with mental illnesses.

          7       Q.   What clinical experience, if any, do you

          8  have?

          9       A.   Well, I was trained as a clinical

         10  psychologist, did an internship at the VA Palo Alto in

         11  clinical psychology, trained also with Stanford

         12  University at that time.  I left my internship and

         13  spent two years as a division psychologist for the 9th

         14  Infantry Division of the United States Army, left that

         15  capacity, and began employment in an outpatient HMO in

         16  Southern California.  As I established my private

         17  practice in clinical psychology, left the HMO to go

         18  into full-time private practice.

         19       Q.   Have you served on any professional boards or

         20  committees?

         21       A.   Yes.  I served as a member of the ethics

         22  committee of the California Psychological Association

         23  for four years, spent the fifth year as the chair of

         24  that committee.  Following that, I was elected or

         25  appointed, if you will, to be a hearing officer for the

Page 875

          1  American Psychological Association, and in that

          2  capacity you hear complaints, or cases if you will, and

          3  render decisions about ethical conduct.  I then was

          4  appointed as a fact-finder, now known as an associate,

          5  to the ethics committee of the American Psychological

          6  Association, spent two years in that capacity and was

          7  elected by the Council of Representatives to the

          8  committee, served three years on the committee,

          9  finishing my last year as chairperson of the ethics

         10  committee of the American Psychological Association.

         11       Q.   What does the ethics committee of the

         12  American Psychological Association do?

         13       A.   It has two functions:  one is to enforce the

         14  ethical standards of psychologists in a disciplinary

         15  fashion on its members, that is, deal with complaints;

         16  and then it serves an educative function.  It is

         17  involved in educating the membership about ethical

         18  issues, to include the review and the development of

         19  new ethics codes.  Although the codes are developed by

         20  sub committees, the committee retains authority over

         21  the codes.

         22       Q.   Do you serve as a consultant for any boards

         23  or committees?

         24       A.   Yes I do.

         25       Q.   Which do you serve?

Page 876

          1       A.   I consult to various licensing boards in the

          2  State of California to include the Medical Board, Board

          3  of Psychology, Board of Behavioural Sciences, Nursing

          4  Board, and other health care boards, and also consult

          5  with the Board of Psychology in the State of Nevada on

          6  standards of care and ethics issues.

          7       Q.   Have you published or presented any articles

          8  on psychology?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   How many articles have you published or

         11  presented?

         12       A.   I have six peer review publications and a

         13  number of other publications in widely disseminated

         14  journals, if you will, like the Register Report of the

         15  National Register of Psychologists.  It's a United

         16  States organisation that publishes a journal, if you

         17  will, or a newsletter about ethical issues, and I write

         18  articles for that and then publications in various

         19  division newsletters as well and have made

         20  presentations.

         21       Q.   Have you ever been qualified as an expert in

         22  a Court of law?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   In how many cases have you been qualified as

         25  an expert?

Page 877

          1       A.   Approximately 35.

          2       Q.   Did your testimony in any of the cases in

          3  which you have been qualified as an expert deal with

          4  traumatic memory?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   How many cases?

          7       A.   At a minimum three cases:  one criminal, one

          8  civil, and in another, an administrative law matter.

          9       Q.   In your professional practice as a clinical

         10  and forensic psychologist, have you worked with cases

         11  that involve memory and trauma?

         12       A.   Yes.  I have treated trauma victims in my

         13  practice and, in my forensic practice, have done

         14  extensive assessments of trauma victims, both with

         15  established trauma as well as debated trauma, if you

         16  will, and so both in the capacity as a forensic

         17  psychologist as well as a clinical psychologist I've

         18  worked with issues of trauma and memory.

         19       Q.   During your tenure with the ethics committee

         20  of the American Psychological Association, did you deal

         21  with cases that involved trauma?

         22       A.   Yes, we did, and, in fact, at that time the

         23  debate was raging about memory recovery and false

         24  memory syndrome, if you will, and that piqued my

         25  interest in the area because there were allegations of

Page 878

          1  professional misconduct wrapped around that, and in

          2  addition, the American Psychological Association was

          3  involved in the preparation of a report about traumatic

          4  memory which was published, and so I carried that

          5  interest with me after I left the committee and have

          6  pursued that interest.

          7       Q.   Have you ever treated victims of trauma?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   How many, approximately, patients of victims

         10  of trauma have you treated?

         11       A.   Well, I mean, if you start with the beginning

         12  of my clinical training and you -- I was at the VA Palo

         13  Alto.  The majority of the residents there were World

         14  War II and Korean War veterans, most of whom were

         15  trauma victims.  Then I was responsible for dealing

         16  with the emotional problems of an infantry division

         17  that had just rotated out of Vietnam, full of

         18  individuals who were exposed to combat and trauma.  I

         19  maintained my contact with the military, seeing

         20  patients at Letterman Army Medical Centre and Brook

         21  Army Medical Centre as well as seeing non-combat trauma

         22  victims in my general clinical practice.  Although that

         23  is not exclusively what I treated, it was a part of my

         24  practice.

         25       Q.   Have you treated any victims of Post

Page 879

          1  Traumatic Stress Disorder?

          2       A.   Yes.  I obviously treated victims of Post

          3  Traumatic Stress Disorder in the VA in the army.  In

          4  those days, we didn't have the diagnosis, we just had

          5  the problems.  Subsequent to that, I have seen

          6  individuals who have carried the diagnosis and I've

          7  treated them, as well as assessed individuals who have

          8  carried that diagnosis.

          9       Q.   Have you ever treated rape victims?

         10       A.   Yes.  Again, as a part of my clinical

         11  practice, I would see rape victims -- to be honest, I

         12  think that rape victims generally are better treated by

         13  women than men because generally the victims are women,

         14  but I would triage with hospitals that I have worked

         15  with, and so in that capacity have treated rape

         16  victims, and then have seen rape victims in therapy in

         17  various capacities over the years.

         18       Q.   Are you familiar with the field of forensic

         19  consulting?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   What is forensic consulting, and do you have

         22  any experience in that area?

         23       A.   Well, actually, yes, forensic consulting is

         24  that aspect of psychology, if you will, forensic

         25  psychology, that deals with the application of

Page 880

          1  psychology to the legal process or to an administrative

          2  process, testimony, evaluation, disability evaluation,

          3  those kinds of things, and I guess in recognition of

          4  whether I have expertise in that or not, the American

          5  Psychological Association has contracted with me and

          6  two other authors to write a book on forensic

          7  psychology to be published by the American

          8  Psychological Association to help clinicians understand

          9  the differences between forensic and clinical

         10  psychology and to avoid the pitfalls that exist in

         11  crossing those lines, if you will.

         12            MR. MISETIC:  Your Honours, the Defence

         13  offers Dr. Jeffrey Younggren as an expert in the areas

         14  of clinical and forensic psychology.

         15            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Any comments?

         16            MS. SELLERS:  Your Honour, the Prosecution

         17  has no objection.

         18            JUDGE MUMBA:  You may proceed.

         19            MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

         20       Q.   Doctor, have you reviewed any documents in

         21  preparation for this case?

         22       A.   Yes, I have.  I reviewed the testimony of

         23  Witness A, 1993, 1995, 1997, the direct and the

         24  cross-examination for this trial; in addition, I

         25  reviewed the documents from Medica concerning her

Page 881

          1  treatment; and then I reviewed the documents that the

          2  Court has accepted today; and I also reviewed the

          3  testimony of Witness D in this matter.

          4       Q.   Doctor, are you familiar with the different

          5  methods of treating victims of trauma and rape?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   What is the primary objective when treating a

          8  rape trauma patient?

          9       A.   Well, the primary objective of treating a

         10  rape trauma patient is not a lot different, in a

         11  general sense, from treating any kind of patient; that

         12  is, you are to try and alleviate the psychological

         13  difficulties that they're having.  Specifically with

         14  trauma, there are certain kinds of techniques that are

         15  more effective with that than others and some of which

         16  are actually destructive in terms of recovery of

         17  patients.  But in general, the treatment of trauma

         18  victims requires the establishment of a therapeutic

         19  relationship and then, in some gradual and supportive

         20  way, a working-through or a re-experiencing, if you

         21  will, of the traumatic event, to organise it as well as

         22  to desensitise to the PTSD symptoms that might be

         23  present or to the symptoms of the trauma, that doesn't

         24  have to be PTSD, and coupled with that appropriate

         25  medication intervention.

Page 882

          1       Q.   Are you familiar with the terms "forensic

          2  reality" and "emotional reality"?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   What do those terms mean?

          5       A.   Well, it's a term of much discussion in

          6  psychology because emotional reality of a patient has

          7  to do with their beliefs and what they respond to in

          8  their perception of what happened to them and emotional

          9  reality is an important part of therapy; that is, a

         10  therapist would not necessarily pursue truth, if you

         11  will, in a factual sense in order to obtain treatment

         12  or to pursue treatment.  In fact, if you question a

         13  victim too much, it's destructive to the relationship.

         14  I would say that short of extreme kinds of allegations,

         15  that is, alien abductions and satanic cults, therapists

         16  generally accept what a patient brings to them and they

         17  work with that and they work with the inconsistencies

         18  in it, and that's the emotional reality, vastly

         19  different from the forensic reality which has to do

         20  with truth, it has to do with the questions that are

         21  going on here and in lots of courtrooms about what

         22  happened, what didn't happen and so forth.  Forensic

         23  reality can often be destructive to the emotional

         24  reality, and that's why the profession holds the

         25  position that treating therapists should not do

Page 883

          1  forensic assessments in the cases that they're treating

          2  because they get into mixed roles that can be

          3  destructive to the patient.

          4            JUDGE MUMBA:  Can I just ask one question

          5  before you leave that?  That is the American view;

          6  those are the guidelines to the American profession?

          7       A.   Yes, Your Honour, and truly I think in a

          8  general sense they're adopted -- obviously, many

          9  countries don't have highly-trained experts and

         10  obviously there are constraints as a function of that,

         11  but we take very seriously the difference between a

         12  forensic role and a clinical role, and mostly for --

         13  you know, frankly for two reasons, one of which is that

         14  mixing those roles can be destructive to the patient

         15  because if you say what they told you is a lie or you

         16  don't believe it, you're not going to be able to be a

         17  very good therapist; and the second is that therapists

         18  tend to become advocates for patients out of the

         19  treatment setting.  You're trying to get them better

         20  and you bond, we call it transference, that's a generic

         21  term, and so a treating therapist is not necessarily

         22  objective in a forensic sense so they're not good

         23  witnesses in expert testimony.  They may be good fact

         24  witnesses or treating therapists for fact witnesses but

         25  not forensic expert.

Page 884

          1            MR. MISETIC:

          2       Q.   Doctor, to follow up on Judge Mumba's

          3  question:  Do you have any knowledge of whether that

          4  standard that you described about the separation

          5  between forensic treatment and -- forensic analysis and

          6  emotional treatment, whether that is something that is

          7  generally accepted outside the borders of the United

          8  States?  Do you have any knowledge about that?

          9       A.   I don't think that it's a matter of a lot of

         10  debate, and I would -- I can't cite you publication

         11  citations for it, but the standards I'm sure are

         12  accepted in Britain and countries in Europe as well.

         13  We just had the International Congress of Psychologists

         14  in California and, in fact, I presented to the

         15  International Congress on Ethics Issues, so there is an

         16  integration of standards going on.  I can't say what

         17  every country's standard is, but they were all there.

         18       Q.   Doctor, having served on the ethics committee

         19  of the American Psychological Association, are you

         20  familiar with the minimum standards necessary for

         21  someone to begin practice in the area of psychology?

         22       A.   I'm familiar with primarily the standards in

         23  the United States of America and a number of countries,

         24  not the world standard, but, yes, generally the title

         25  "psychologist," if you will, is restricted or at least

Page 885

          1  encouraged to be restricted to people who hold a

          2  doctoral degree in psychology.  Many states have a

          3  master's level psychotherapist licence for independent

          4  practice, so it's safe to say that the minimum level of

          5  education in the United States for an individual to do

          6  psychotherapy independently is a master's degree.

          7       Q.   Is there a minimum level of experience that a

          8  person must have before they attain a licence to

          9  practice in the area of psychology?

         10       A.   Yes.  In most states, there is both

         11  pre-degree and post-degree supervision that's required,

         12  anywhere from 1.500 to 3.000 hours.  I can't speak for

         13  every state, but I've testified in a number of states

         14  and discussed their licensing laws, and generally there

         15  is a supervision component that is embedded in the

         16  licence in addition to the education.

         17       Q.   Doctor, would you recommend that a person

         18  with no knowledge about trauma or how to deal with it

         19  treat a patient who has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

         20       A.   Absolutely not.  Individuals who are absent

         21  knowledge of trauma may be useful in an emergency sense

         22  to give support and help guide or triage someone to a

         23  victim, to someone who has experience, but in the hands

         24  of an inexperienced therapist, you can do significant

         25  emotional damage to someone if you utilise the wrong

Page 886

          1  kinds of therapeutic interventions.  You can actually

          2  make the symptoms far worse.

          3       Q.   What can happen if a person is not properly

          4  treated for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

          5       A.   As I said, you can make the symptoms worse.

          6  You can -- the term in the literature is "retraumatise"

          7  them and it's really regressive.  It just creates a

          8  whole another set of problems or makes the problems

          9  more severe, so the therapy is not helpful.  I mean,

         10  this is an area of substantial reading, and individuals

         11  who work in it and treat victims need to have some

         12  knowledge of both the psychological and psychiatric and

         13  even some of the new medical literature coming out

         14  about neurology of PTSD victims.

         15       Q.   What effects, if any, could trauma have on

         16  memory?

         17       A.   Well, I am willing to acknowledge that this

         18  is a matter of debate in the profession and I'm sure

         19  that you will hear individuals take a different

         20  position on this, but my reading of the literature

         21  indicates that trauma can have effect on memory.

         22  Generally memory is good, but that there are studies,

         23  Southwicke's research, Koss's research, that indicate

         24  that trauma has effects on memory in various ways

         25  different from experiencing of unpleasant events by

Page 887

          1  individuals who have not been traumatised, so I'm one

          2  of those individuals that believes that the debate goes

          3  on but that there is some very good research that shows

          4  that the more trauma you have, the worse your memory

          5  is, and specifically can cite the research for that.

          6            So it's a matter of debate, but there is

          7  evidence that trauma affects memory.

          8       Q.   Doctor, you say that there is a debate.  Is

          9  there a debate among the various psychological

         10  associations on this issue?

         11       A.   No, I don't think so.  I really believe that,

         12  for example, in the area of repressed memories, which

         13  is not a matter in this case, the American

         14  Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric

         15  Association, and the British Society have all taken

         16  very conservative positions about the validity of those

         17  memories and caution clinicians who work with them to

         18  be most careful about assuming those memories to be

         19  true and assuming positions of advocacy because of

         20  those memories.  So the associations have taken

         21  conservative views.  There are divisions among various

         22  groups in psychology about the accuracy of memory and

         23  the debate goes on, but as I said, my reading of the

         24  literature, my belief is that there is data to show

         25  that trauma affects memory.

Page 888

          1       Q.   Doctor, I'm going to quote you a few lines

          2  out of Defence 22 which is the document titled "Medica

          3  Psycho Team."  It's page 2, under the heading of

          4  "Retrospect."

          5            "At the beginning of our work over two years

          6  ago, we often felt helpless.  We had no knowledge about

          7  trauma and how to deal with it.  We ourselves didn't

          8  know how we should cope with our own traumatic

          9  experiences or how we could protect ourselves

         10  internally against the terrible stories we heard each

         11  day."

         12            And then that very next paragraph:

         13            "At first, we lacked experience and

         14  theoretical knowledge, but our daily work and the

         15  discussions with women taught us quickly and we became

         16  increasingly confident."

         17            Doctor, in this particular case, given what

         18  you've just testified to, could Medica's lack -- or

         19  lack of knowledge about trauma and how to deal with it,

         20  its lack of experience or theoretical knowledge have

         21  had an effect on Witness A's memory?

         22       A.   Absolutely.  It could have had an effect and

         23  it could have led to contamination of memory.

         24       Q.   What is contamination of memory and how does

         25  that apply in this case?

Page 889

          1       A.   Well, contamination of memory is where

          2  individuals functionally begin to believe things that

          3  are not true, can be the result of them filling in

          4  blanks from information given to them by other people

          5  or piecing memory fragments together in ways that are

          6  not necessarily truthful.  Again, they may be

          7  emotionally meaningful but you may create a belief

          8  system that can be dangerous.  In addition, if these

          9  individuals engage in techniques that retraumatise or

         10  encourage things like confrontation, it can be

         11  destructive.

         12       Q.   Doctor, if a therapist starts acts as an

         13  advocate with a patient and lacks knowledge about

         14  trauma and how to deal with it, or experience, what

         15  type of consequences could result?

         16       A.   Well, I think if you limit your advocacy to

         17  the treatment setting, and I've said that's important,

         18  that's helpful.  If you advocate beliefs in things that

         19  are wrong, that can be very destructive.

         20            I'll give a case in point that I've been

         21  involved in, a lady who was -- had a very disturbed

         22  psychological history.  We would say she had a

         23  personality disorder -- went into therapy with an

         24  individual who was a believer in cults and satanic

         25  cults, if you will.

Page 890

          1            The analysis of the transcriptions of the

          2  therapy, as well as the therapist's consultation with

          3  other people indicate that belief was reinforced.  The

          4  patient developed a belief that she was a birthing

          5  mother for a satanic cult, if you will, and

          6  deteriorated emotionally, was hospitalised and actually

          7  involved in some very serious criminal allegations.

          8  But the point is that when they did a gynaecological

          9  examination on her, her hymen was still intact.

         10            Now, somehow what she believed, and I believe

         11  came from the process of her therapy with someone who

         12  was inexperienced, didn't help her at all, and

         13  substantially complicated her life.

         14       Q.   Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber

         15  what the method of group therapy is?

         16       A.   Group therapy is the treatment modality where

         17  you put together individuals, usually who suffer some

         18  kind of homogenous problem, in a setting with a

         19  therapist to work on those problems in various ways.

         20  Usually one or two therapists and a number of group

         21  members, and it's a verbal exchange therapy usually.  I

         22  mean, there are group therapies for relaxation and so

         23  forth, but group therapy is group therapy.

         24       Q.   What effect or effects, if any, might group

         25  therapy have on memory?

Page 891

          1       A.   Again, as I said earlier, I have concerns

          2  that that kind of a therapy fills in the blanks, if you

          3  will, and can create false beliefs.  It might be useful

          4  for those false beliefs or peripheral false beliefs,

          5  less so than with the gist memories, but some of the

          6  detail memories could be altered.  And that, frankly,

          7  could be helpful from a treatment perspective but might

          8  not be helpful in another setting.

          9       Q.   What do you mean by that last comment?

         10       A.   As I said earlier, it may help a patient to

         11  put that together and then talk about their problems in

         12  an environment where they can relax, and accept them

         13  and make therapeutic progress, but then to take those

         14  beliefs out and bring them out as fact in terms of

         15  confronting people, which is an issue for -- in the

         16  profession, and/or coming to a forum like a courtroom

         17  and saying they're factual, it's not the same thing.

         18       Q.   And do you know what guided imagery therapy

         19  is?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   What is guided imagery therapy?

         22       A.   Well, first let me say, people do guided

         23  imagery therapy differently, but it has to do with a

         24  model of therapy where an individual is generally

         25  relaxed and then encouraged to fantasise either in a

Page 892

          1  passive way with the therapist, or some therapists

          2  actively participate in helping the patient imagine

          3  things, usually to piece together improved memory.

          4       Q.   Doctor, in this case, again I'm using D22,

          5  page 3, it describes some of the techniques that were

          6  used at Medica to treat patients.  Just above the title

          7  "Safety in a War," it says: "At the same time we found

          8  suitable therapeutic techniques with which we could

          9  back up our ideas.  These included relaxation methods,

         10  dreamed and imagined journeys, breathing techniques and

         11  work with the body.  Our self-confidence also grew at

         12  the same rate as our knowledge and our assessment of

         13  our experiences as the results of our work improved."

         14            My question to you, Doctor, is if Medica were

         15  engaging in the methods of treatment that are described

         16  in that citation, and they lacked the experience or

         17  knowledge in the treatment of trauma patients, how

         18  could this have affected Witness A's memory?

         19       A.   Well, assuming that Witness A participated in

         20  this, this could have contributed to false beliefs in

         21  terms of what happened.  I think that relaxation

         22  therapy is not -- I wouldn't criticise that, that's a

         23  helpful therapy.  I would worry about what "dreamed and

         24  imagined journeys" mean.  Dreams are not necessarily

         25  truthful mind adventures, journeys, and imagined

Page 893

          1  journeys concerns me.  It's awfully close to what I was

          2  talking about, although I'm not sure.  Breathing

          3  techniques may be relaxation, which is fine, and I

          4  don't know what work with the body is, but it does

          5  worry me.

          6       Q.   What is -- just so we're clear on this, what

          7  is the dream journey technique, or what is dream

          8  therapy?

          9       A.   I don't know what exactly they do, but dream

         10  journeys and dream interpretation is, frankly, an

         11  analysis of people's dreams to determine what they

         12  mean.  Frequently individuals will encourage that those

         13  dreams are representations of what occurred coming from

         14  the unconscious mind.  I don't think that's supported

         15  by the empirical literature at all, but that is a kind

         16  of a common lay belief.

         17       Q.   You talked earlier about the objective of

         18  therapy being the recovery of the patient.  How does

         19  this objective affect reported memory, if at all?

         20       A.   Well, depends upon how it's used.  The -- I

         21  mean, if you're talking about someone developing

         22  memories that are generally accurate, somewhat

         23  inaccurate, and the end result of that would help them

         24  recover, to put meaning to what occurred to them and to

         25  learn to cope with those experiences and thoughts of

Page 894

          1  what occurred in more adaptive ways, to accept the

          2  reality, it can be helpful.

          3       Q.   Have you seen any evidence of this in this

          4  particular case, in terms of the primary objective

          5  possibly affecting reported memory?

          6       A.   Well, I have some concerns about it.  One of

          7  the concerns I have is the mixed mission of Medica.  In

          8  their position statement they say that their goal is to

          9  deal with war criminals, and I believe that's in one of

         10  the documents, and that may be incompatible with the

         11  recovery of patients.

         12            So if that is a goal that's carried into the

         13  treatment setting, and again, I don't know if it was or

         14  wasn't, but assuming that's the mission, then it may

         15  encourage patients to do things that are not

         16  necessarily treatment oriented, if you will, or

         17  recovery oriented.

         18       Q.   Doctor, so we're clear on that cite, that

         19  reference that you just made, I'm going to give you the

         20  following passage and ask you if that was the cite you

         21  were referring to.  I believe it's D25.  It is the

         22  document entitled, "BosNews Report - Medica Zenica

         23  Women Therapy Centre," and it is page 5 under the

         24  subtitle "Research."

         25            It states:  "While our mobile teams

Page 895

          1  visit..." that's in the original, "...the refugee

          2  camps, they also collect data on refugees in order to

          3  understand and analyse the full dimension of war

          4  violence against women in ex-Yugoslavia, summon

          5  international law courts against war criminals and

          6  contribute to the world-wide feminist analysis of

          7  patriarchal violence in war."  Is that the passage that

          8  you were referring to?

          9       A.   Yes, it concerns me as a clinician.  The goal

         10  of arriving at a legal conclusion may not be compatible

         11  with the recovery of some trauma patients.  It might be

         12  for some trauma patients too, but that kind of a

         13  patient-by-patient -- that would require a

         14  patient-by-patient analysis, so I can see where there

         15  might be a conflict of interest in Medica's goal here

         16  with what their treatment goals are.

         17       Q.   Doctor, is there any specific research that

         18  has been conducted on the memories of rape victims?

         19       A.   Yes.  There's a substantial amount of

         20  research on the memory of rape victims.

         21       Q.   And what do those studies reveal?

         22       A.   Again, many of those studies get into the

         23  remember-don't remember war, but there is one

         24  impressive study by Koss in the Journal of Abnormal

         25  Psychology that says rape victims suffer memory

Page 896

          1  detriment in terms of clarity and affect effects, as

          2  opposed to other individuals who have negative

          3  experiences, or to individuals who don't necessarily

          4  have negative experiences.  It is a very good study to

          5  show, I believe, that rape, as an individual type of

          6  trauma, has effects on memory.  It's from the

          7  University of Arizona.

          8       Q.   Does this research indicate -- or what, if

          9  anything, does this research indicate about accuracy

         10  for visual details, like appearance of others?

         11       A.   Well, there's an implication in it that

         12  individuals who have been victims of rape may, in fact,

         13  have less accurate memories and clarity of what

         14  occurred, and so I don't think it's a big leap to

         15  conclude that that would apply to visual details.

         16       Q.   Could that inaccuracy in visual details,

         17  having read the witness statements in this case, do you

         18  see -- what, if any, application do you see for that in

         19  this case?

         20       A.   Well, I think it's striking that Witness A

         21  initially had a recollection of the defendant as blonde

         22  and short, when, in fact, he clearly isn't blonde and

         23  short, and that that shift is, at least in my reading,

         24  very evident in the testimony.

         25       Q.   Are you able to make an opinion as to the

Page 897

          1  psychological makeup of Witness A?

          2       A.   No.  I couldn't do that without conducting a

          3  psychological evaluation of her, and I wouldn't be

          4  qualified because I don't speak Croatian.  For a

          5  variety of reasons, but most importantly is I haven't

          6  evaluated her.

          7       Q.   Is the confidence a patient displays about

          8  memories an indicator of reliability?

          9       A.   No.  It's a measure of confidence.  People

         10  can be very confident about things that occurred that

         11  simply hadn't occurred.  Again, not necessarily the

         12  gist of what occurred, but confident about some details

         13  and be very wrong.  I think all of us have experienced

         14  that at least some way or another in our lives.

         15       Q.   And what indication, if any, of that have you

         16  seen in this case?

         17       A.   Well, I've read the testimony of Witness A, I

         18  have -- I've observed her testimony.  There's no

         19  question she went through a horrific trauma, and she is

         20  impressively confident in her beliefs and purpose, and

         21  I hope this process is helpful to her to recover from

         22  what occurred, but a confidence doesn't mean that she's

         23  right.  It doesn't mean she's wrong either.

         24       Q.   You believe the memories of your own

         25  patients?

Page 898

          1       A.   Generally, yes, because of what I spoke about

          2  earlier.  It is an important part of treatment.  Unless

          3  you get into those extreme areas where I think that

          4  it's not helpful for people to carry around bizarre

          5  beliefs.

          6       Q.   With respect to your own patients, do you

          7  believe that the memories of trauma reported to you

          8  from your trauma patients are forensically accurate,

          9  that is factually accurate?

         10       A.   I believe their memories are emotionally

         11  accurate.  I don't even deal with the forensic end of

         12  it.  I'm working with the patient to help that

         13  individual recover from emotional distress.  That's my

         14  goal, and if I didn't believe it, it would affect my

         15  therapeutic alliance in relationships that is so very

         16  important to therapy.  It would have lots of negative

         17  effects.  So from the emotional perspective, we're in

         18  the belief together.

         19       Q.   But if you were asked to -- or if you wanted

         20  to make a forensic conclusion about one of your

         21  patients, that is a factual conclusion, how could you

         22  determine the factual accuracy?

         23       A.   I wouldn't go there.  I mean, I really --

         24  that's, as far as I'm concerned, a ethics violation,

         25  because I've lost my objectivity.  I'm an advocate for

Page 899

          1  the patient and I have beliefs consistent with the

          2  patient's beliefs, and that is simply not necessarily a

          3  forensic reality.  I would be willing to share that

          4  information with the forensic evaluator who is working

          5  for the Court, or for lawyers, to make that

          6  determination, but because I'm a treating therapist, it

          7  precludes me from testifying as a forensic expert about

          8  truth, if you will.

          9            MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Dr. Younggren.  I

         10  have nothing further for the witness.

         11            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.  We

         12  have a few minutes.  Perhaps the Prosecution could

         13  start.

         14            MS. SELLERS:  Your Honour, would you just

         15  give me one minute?

         16                 Cross-examined by Ms. Sellers:

         17            MS. SELLERS:  Your Honour, if we could just

         18  do one or two matters this afternoon.  I understand our

         19  time period is down.

         20            The Prosecution would like to offer into

         21  evidence the document entitled, "Reply, The Medica

         22  Centre for Treatment of Women."  The Defence, I

         23  believe, has indicated earlier that they would agree to

         24  its authentication.  We'd like to ask our learned

         25  colleagues to allow us to submit this into evidence as

Page 900

          1  we have priorly submitted their other documents into

          2  evidence.

          3            JUDGE MUMBA:  Was that document submitted?

          4  Okay.

          5            THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Prosecution

          6  Exhibit 5, number 5.

          7            MS. SELLERS:  Thank you.  I believe we have

          8  copies for the Court also.

          9            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, you may proceed.

         10            MS. SELLERS:  Am I to understand now that the

         11  document will be admitted into evidence, Your Honour?

         12            JUDGE MUMBA:  Do you have any objection,

         13  Mr. Misetic?

         14            MR. MISETIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

         15            JUDGE MUMBA:  It's admitted as P5.  We're

         16  being told that it's the same document as D24.

         17            MS. SELLERS:  No, Your Honour.  I'm talking

         18  about the reply from the Medica centre.  I believe that

         19  the Defence entered into evidence the report of the

         20  Medica centre.

         21            Your Honour, am I to believe that the reply

         22  is part of the document that's been submitted into

         23  evidence?

         24            MR. MISETIC:  If it's part of our document,

         25  that's fine.

Page 901

          1            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  The whole document was

          2  submitted, yes.

          3            MR. MISETIC:  We need to need to raise one

          4  procedural matter, and I apologise.  With respect to

          5  the order of sequestration of witnesses, et cetera, I'm

          6  not clear as to whether that would apply in the expert

          7  context.  We have no objection if during the breaks

          8  they wish to consult with their experts, and the reason

          9  we say that is otherwise, we're have to ostracise

         10  Dr. Younggren tonight and leave him alone someplace.

         11            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  With experts it doesn't

         12  matter really.  If counsel wishes to consult, they can

         13  go ahead.

         14            MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

         15            JUDGE MUMBA:  So we're dealing with this

         16  document.  You say the whole document, including the

         17  report.

         18            MS. SELLERS:  Fine, Your Honour.

         19            JUDGE MUMBA:  So just withdraw P5.

         20            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, it's part of D24.

         21            JUDGE MUMBA:  Leave it as D24.

         22            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.

         23            MS. SELLERS:  May I proceed, Your Honour?

         24            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

         25            MS. SELLERS:

Page 902

          1       Q.   Good afternoon, Dr. Younggren.

          2       A.   Good afternoon.

          3       Q.   End of the afternoon, I imagine.

          4            Dr. Younggren, you've testified about your

          5  relationships to standard of care and standard of

          6  practice; is that correct?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   As a matter of fact, you have been involved

          9  for over 20 years with questions of ethics and the

         10  standard of care in California; is that correct?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   And as an expert, you're involved in handling

         13  compliance that could lead to either someone's licence

         14  being revoked or turned over to the State Attorney

         15  General in California; is that correct?

         16       A.   That's correct.

         17       Q.   Now, I imagine that whenever you evaluate a

         18  complaint, there are certain steps that you take before

         19  reaching the decision that you'll transmit to the

         20  licensing board; is that correct?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   For example, before you would reach a

         23  conclusion, you would probably study the psychologist's

         24  file; is that correct?

         25       A.   If that's in the evidence.  Basically if you

Page 903

          1  need information, you can request it, or you need to

          2  limit or qualify your statement to the documents that

          3  you've reviewed, but you either get more information or

          4  you have the information with you.

          5       Q.   Because the information would be important in

          6  terms of trying to reach that decision; is that

          7  correct?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   And at times would you request to speak to

         10  that psychologist if you needed information?

         11       A.   Actually, no.  The boards generally don't

         12  want you to do that.  I don't establish the procedures,

         13  but if you want information, an investigator will go

         14  out and do that.  On occasion you will speak to the

         15  psychologist, but generally not.

         16       Q.   So generally you have information from the

         17  psychologist through the investigator?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   And would there be certain questions that you

         20  would ask that investigator to inquire of that

         21  psychologist?

         22       A.   Could be, yes.

         23       Q.   Would you ask them what type of therapy was

         24  given?

         25       A.   Depending upon the case, yes.

Page 904

          1       Q.   Would you ask them what types of techniques

          2  were used in that particular therapy?

          3       A.   Once again, depending upon the case, yes.

          4  And the reason I qualify is, there are some violations

          5  that it doesn't make any difference what kind of

          6  therapy you did, but generally when one talks about

          7  certain kinds of interventions, what they do is very

          8  important.

          9       Q.   Right.  Particularly when we're talking about

         10  the standard of care; correct?

         11       A.   Yes, yes.

         12       Q.   Dr. Younggren, I would imagine that you would

         13  then evaluate whatever information the investigator

         14  brought back; is that correct?

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   Now, what types of techniques would you

         17  inquire about before you'd reach a conclusion?

         18       A.   An evaluation consists of a review of the

         19  information, and then a citation of relevant literature

         20  having to do with the standard of care, codes, laws,

         21  local standards of practice, and an integration of

         22  those into a decision.  And again, if the decision is

         23  qualified, and by that I mean frequently the cases do

         24  not include a defence because an attorney has advised

         25  the individual not to provide that to the medical board

Page 905

          1  or psychology board, and so you basically say, assuming

          2  these materials are true, then this is my conclusion.

          3  Obviously, if there is other information, you reserve

          4  the right to qualify the opinion.

          5       Q.   Am I correct in assuming that in the case we

          6  have before us today, that you did not talk to the

          7  psychologist?

          8       A.   Actually, I don't know who the psychologist

          9  is.

         10       Q.   So you didn't talk to the psychologist; is

         11  that correct?

         12       A.   No.  That's correct.

         13       Q.   Can I also assume that you did not send an

         14  investigator to ask about the techniques or the therapy

         15  that was used?

         16       A.   I actually asked if there was more

         17  information and was informed that that was not

         18  available.

         19       Q.   Whom did you ask?

         20       A.   Mr. Misetic.

         21       Q.   I understand.  Then I imagine you at least

         22  got a copy of the local standards of care practised

         23  within the former Yugoslavia, the Zenica region?

         24       A.   No, I didn't.

         25       Q.   Were you able to inquire whether one was

Page 906

          1  available, sir?

          2       A.   No.

          3       Q.   Now, you've testified that you've given

          4  forensic testimony concerning a criminal case before,

          5  in terms of memory?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   An administrative case?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   And a civil case?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   How many other criminal cases, sir, have you

         12  given forensic evidence in?

         13       A.   I believe three.

         14       Q.   Let's say a total of four criminal cases, and

         15  one of those criminal cases, sir, dealt with the

         16  question of memory and trauma; is that correct?

         17       A.   Yes.  Actually, memory and trauma -- one,

         18  two -- three of them are trauma cases.  So three out of

         19  five are trauma cases, one memory-trauma case.

         20       Q.   So you've actually testified in one case

         21  concerning memory and trauma to date?

         22       A.   One criminal case.

         23       Q.   Prior to today, of course?

         24       A.   Right.

         25       Q.   Well, Dr. Younggren, I understand that your

Page 907

          1  focus, from your CV, is on ethics, isn't that correct,

          2  not memory and trauma?

          3       A.   Actually, I spend a great amount of time

          4  working with memory and trauma, and I would say the

          5  majority of my forensic assessments have been simply on

          6  that topic.

          7       Q.   Not the ones you've testified in court about;

          8  is that correct?

          9       A.   Most of them are civil cases and they've

         10  settled.

         11       Q.   I've enjoyed looking at your CV.  You have a

         12  long list of publications and most of those are

         13  concerning ethics; is that correct?

         14       A.   That's correct.

         15       Q.   You've mentioned that you will have a book

         16  that's coming out, but to date I do not see any

         17  publications concerning memory or trauma, or memory or

         18  rape; isn't that correct, sir?

         19       A.   Actually, that is correct.  It's not an area

         20  that I publish in, except in terms of comments about

         21  the risk to professionals who work in this area.

         22       Q.   Sir, also I noticed on your CV that you have

         23  not listed any of the rape crisis centres in which you

         24  have worked at.  Have you worked at a rape crisis

         25  centre?

Page 908

          1       A.   No.

          2       Q.   Have you consulted directly with a rape

          3  crisis centre, sir?

          4       A.   Well, I worked with the Los Angeles Free

          5  Clinic that saw rape cases, it was a generic clinic.

          6  Then I had rape cases at the HMO that I worked at as

          7  well, but I didn't work at a rape crisis centre.

          8       Q.   Have you supervised therapists who have

          9  worked at rape crisis centres?

         10       A.   I don't recall.

         11       Q.   Dr. Younggren, I see that you reviewed many

         12  of the materials, I imagine, that are relevant to this

         13  case.  I would like to know, in that review of

         14  materials, because you furnished that to the

         15  Prosecution, isn't it correct that most of the

         16  materials that you informed us that you reviewed dealt

         17  with questions of childhood sexual abuse?

         18       A.   I don't understand the question.

         19            MR. MISETIC:  I would object.  Give the

         20  witness a copy of the document.  I believe he said

         21  there is nothing particular that he reviewed for this

         22  case, however, there are books about the area that may

         23  be of assistance to you.

         24            MS. SELLERS:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I'm

         25  referring to a document supplied to us by the Defence

Page 909

          1  concerning the materials that Dr. Younggren was going

          2  to rely upon, attached to the different studies.  Then

          3  I assume Dr. Younggren knew of the list of materials

          4  that you had forwarded.

          5            MR. MISETIC:  Again, I would prefer that we

          6  have the document we're talking about, because that was

          7  my comment before.

          8            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Which document in

          9  particular?

         10            MS. SELLERS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Excuse me.

         11       Q.   Dr. Younggren, maybe I can refresh your

         12  memory.  You cited the book of Dr. Elizabeth Loftus?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   Now, Dr. Younggren, the book of Dr. Elizabeth

         15  Loftus, that book basically deals with recovered

         16  memories during childhood abuse; is that correct?

         17       A.   It's the major theme, but it is a publication

         18  about memory trauma and recovery from trauma.  I mean,

         19  it's a memory book, but the primary topic is child

         20  sexual abuse and repressed memories.

         21       Q.   Right.  And Dr. Younggren, you also refer to

         22  another work entitled, "Validation of Sexual Abuse in

         23  Day Care Settings."

         24       A.   Right.  That's Dr. Fisher's publication, I

         25  believe.

Page 910

          1       Q.   Right.  Now, is that work also about sexual

          2  abuse of children?

          3       A.   It actually has to do with applying the

          4  ethics codes to arriving at conclusions about sexual

          5  abuse in areas where there's not existing literature,

          6  so it's -- but the topic is children, obviously, by the

          7  title.

          8            JUDGE MUMBA:  Ms. Sellers, I think we've

          9  reached our break-off point, 17.30.

         10            MS. SELLERS:  Yes, Your Honour.

         11       Q.   We'll be able to continue this discussion

         12  tomorrow.

         13       A.   I will be here, counsellor.

         14            JUDGE MUMBA:  We'll adjourn until tomorrow

         15  morning at 9.30 hours.

         16                 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

         17                 5.35 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

         18                 the 10th day of November, 1998 at

         19                 9:30 a.m.

         20

         21

         22

         23

         24

         25