Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 94

1 Thursday, 8 June 2000

2 [Motion Hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 --- Upon commencing at 4.03 p.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could we

7 call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is case

9 number IT-98-29-PT, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav

10 Galic.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

12 very much.

13 Mr. Prosecutor, would you like to introduce

14 your team to us, please.

15 MR. TERRIER: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

16 Your Honours. The Prosecution is represented by

17 Michael Blaxill, Sureta Chana, and myself, Franck

18 Terrier.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

20 very much. I will now turn to Mr. Kostic.

21 MR. KOSTIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour.

22 I'm appearing without a team; it's just a one-man show

23 this afternoon. Attorney Nick Kostic appearing for

24 General Galic.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right.

Page 95

1 Good afternoon to everybody, and of course to General

2 Galic.

3 Before beginning our work this afternoon, I

4 would like to tell you that the Trial Chamber is not

5 sitting in a full bench because Judge Riad is busy with

6 another case in the Appeals Chamber, which you may

7 already know.

8 I suggest the following: This Chamber,

9 without Judge Riad, could hear the parties today and

10 subsequently render a decision. I would like to know

11 whether there are any objections from either of the

12 parties.

13 Mr. Terrier.

14 MR. TERRIER: [Interpretation] The Prosecution

15 has no objection whatsoever.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

17 very much.

18 For the Defence, Mr. Kostic.

19 MR. KOSTIC: Your Honour, I wanted to take up

20 the matter of the question that you've just asked,

21 which deals with the ability to proceed without Judge

22 Riad. I have another problem concerning proceeding

23 today which I want to address.

24 You were kind enough, the Chamber was -- I

25 filed a motion at one point and asked for a continuance

Page 96

1 of the provisional release hearing because I had just

2 begun a trip to Bosnia about, I think, a day before I

3 received the notice, and then proceeded to go to Bosnia

4 and return to the States later, towards the end of

5 May.

6 Unfortunately, and I can't tell you why and

7 it's something that I have actually taken up with the

8 Registry, the decision which you rendered in regard to

9 your decision on my motion seeking postponement,

10 although it's dated May 17th, and I have no doubt that

11 that's when it was rendered, that was never forwarded

12 to my office. The way I obtained it was to obtain it

13 from a member of the Prosecution today when I -- I

14 arrived here the day before today. I've taken that up

15 because it's somewhat bothersome that I wouldn't have

16 received it.

17 I also did not receive -- the reason I'm

18 here, of course, is because back on April 11th, when we

19 had a Status Conference, I think verbally you indicated

20 you wanted to have a Status Conference on today's date,

21 which was good, and I put it in my calendar. So I'm

22 here pursuant to that verbal notice from you and was

23 only informed about this potential hearing on this

24 date.

25 The reason I raise that issue is that while I

Page 97

1 was in Republika Srpska, I took some steps and efforts

2 to investigate and deal with the issue of the motion

3 that I filed. As you know, there are other cases

4 not -- well, I'm not sure if it's before this Trial

5 Chamber, but it certainly is before some other Trial

6 Chambers, to deal with the issue of release and there

7 have been some decisions made. I took some efforts to

8 see if I could get an input from the particular

9 authorities in Republika Srpska who would deal with the

10 Tribunal and who would be able to provide the Tribunal

11 with information -- well, the Trial Chamber, this Trial

12 Chamber with information in regard to this particular

13 motion.

14 The problem is that being unaware that we

15 would proceeded today, that I was not able or did not

16 have time to secure their presence. Judging from --

17 and being informed in Srpska by the officer who is the

18 liaison officer with the Tribunal, Mr. Jovicic, I was

19 informed that he played certainly a role in these kinds

20 of hearings. This has to do with commitments by

21 Republika Srpska; this has to do with commitments by

22 the Ministry of Justice. He works under the Ministry

23 of Justice, in that entity.

24 That is the problem in regard to this issue

25 on today's date. So I wanted to indicate that to you,

Page 98

1 and, quite frankly, I'm not sure why I'm not receiving

2 the documents. I did receive finally yesterday your

3 document dealing with the Prosecutor's motion to extend

4 time, but that was only received in my office, I think,

5 on the day before yesterday. So I'm trying to clear

6 that issue up. That is one of the problems that I have

7 today.

8 The other issue that I wanted to talk to the

9 Tribunal or the Chamber with is this: whether the Court

10 or the Chamber, in lieu of oral testimony, would be

11 just as happy to receive affidavits submitted to the

12 Court in regard to these issues. Obviously, if not, I

13 would have to then get the witness here to testify.

14 I'm looking for some guidance in that

15 regard. I know that in one of the other cases in front

16 of the other Trial Chamber, the lawyer made an offer of

17 proof, in other words, informed the Trial Chamber

18 himself of the background of the situation, the reasons

19 why he feels there ought to be a release. It also

20 would represent what the witness or witnesses would

21 testify to or what the defendant could give in terms of

22 information. So that is another way of doing it.

23 That is the issue, Judge, that I have on

24 today's date.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Kostic,

Page 99

1 in relation to the composition of the Chamber without

2 Judge Riad's being here, do you have any objection to

3 the Chamber hearing your comments and then taking a

4 decision, or what is your position, before we

5 continue?

6 MR. KOSTIC: Judge, I know that Judge Riad is

7 in an important matter, and I have no objection to

8 proceeding without him.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Madam Registrar, do you have any information

11 about the reasons why counsel did not receive the

12 documents in a timely fashion.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] For the time

14 being, unfortunately, I have no answer to give you. I

15 think that we might need a five-minute break so I can

16 get some information from the Registry, that is, to

17 learn whether the motion was sent to Mr. Kostic by fax,

18 which is what is usually done, and try to conduct a

19 little investigation to see what happened in respect of

20 that notification.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

22 very much. We're going to see if we can do that at

23 some point, because perhaps we should take a break and

24 find out.

25 I believe that we have here at least two

Page 100

1 questions, preliminary questions: The first has to do

2 with timeliness of the evidence in support of the

3 motion, and the other is a point which affects the

4 first, which is a specific detail. In any case, I

5 might give the floor to the Prosecutor so that he can

6 tell us.

7 But before anything else, it seems to me that

8 a motion requesting provisional release is an urgent

9 request, in my opinion, and a very serious one at that;

10 urgent and therefore must be the subject of an

11 immediate decision. And the Chamber has set a date for

12 this hearing and, at the request of the Defence,

13 postponed it. It's serious, because I believe that the

14 arguments and allegations must, in some way, be already

15 proved. We cannot make a motion -- present a motion

16 and then look for support of the arguments in the

17 motion.

18 However, as I've already said, I'm going to

19 give the floor to the Prosecutor so that he can react

20 to the issue raised by Mr. Kostic.

21 MR. TERRIER: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

22 I'll try to give you our point of view, but I would

23 like to point out that at this point of our

24 deliberations, I really don't understand the request

25 Mr. Kostic is making. Is he asking that the Chamber

Page 101

1 issue a postponement for this very urgent issue,

2 urgent, as you've said, or is he in a position today to

3 give us the nature of the evidence which he plans to

4 submit to the Tribunal in support of the motion? I

5 don't know for sure, but what I would simply like to

6 say is that, in principle, these hearings are not

7 evidentiary hearings, responsible for gathering

8 evidence in support of the motion or against the

9 motion.

10 Ordinarily, the documents are disclosed to

11 the Tribunal, and then the Tribunal confirms the

12 allegations -- or rather, which confirm the allegations

13 that are contained in the motion. And in support of

14 the motion, in theory, I see no problems with documents

15 being submitted by Mr. Kostic in support of his

16 request. However, hearing the witnesses during this

17 type of hearing seems to me to be very difficult to

18 organise and even to conceive of.

19 From our point of view -- and I'm reacting

20 perhaps without thinking too much about what I'm

21 saying -- my first thought is to say that I agree for

22 the documents, and possibly even affidavits, subject of

23 course to our knowing what the writer of these

24 affidavits has to say. Would these be official

25 documents? Are the documents of an official

Page 102

1 character? Are they indicating the commitment on the

2 part of a recognised authority or is this a private

3 person? All of this will be reviewed.

4 In any case, a document, we agree. A

5 witness, well, my position is more nuanced. .

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Kostic,

7 would you answer, please.

8 MR. KOSTIC: Your Honour, what I would intend

9 to do is, in regard to any witnesses who -- for

10 example, an affidavit from my client, anybody who has

11 knowledge or had knowledge of his whereabouts and his

12 activities for the relevant period of time, that could

13 be done in affidavit fashion.

14 Obviously the documents from the officer in

15 charge of the liaison for Srpska, which would -- I

16 think there would be two types of documents; one --

17 they would both be official documents, because one is

18 an official document of the entity in a form of a

19 guarantee; the other document would be in a form of a

20 letter from the officer in charge, which would indicate

21 that they are prepared, and I of course would

22 suggest -- I will suggest or would suggest to the Court

23 certain conditions -- if there is a release, certain

24 conditions that would have to be met, and that would be

25 outlined again in an official document, a condition

Page 103

1 such as a ban on travel, depositing whatever passport

2 or travel documents, and the place of residence, things

3 of that nature. So those would be the types of

4 documents that I would provide to the Court.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Kostic,

6 if I have understood you correctly, you are not in a

7 position to discuss your motion with the Chamber today,

8 or are you in a position to discuss it?

9 MR. KOSTIC: Your Honour, what I can do today

10 is to give you a background and give you an oral

11 presentation as to some of these issues, but I cannot

12 supply you with either evidence or documents from the

13 Republika Srpska entity. That is not quite available

14 yet.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Kostic,

16 the Defence should supply all justifications in support

17 of a request for provisional release at the time that

18 the request is made and not after two months. That's

19 really the issue.

20 If, Mr. Kostic, one looks at the motion which

21 you've submitted, one should be able to say that there

22 isn't a sufficient basis and that it should not be

23 granted. However, since this is an important issue,

24 that is, provisional release of an accused, the Chamber

25 nonetheless expected to discuss this at this time. But

Page 104

1 now you're telling us that you're not in a position to

2 do so, and I'm going to make a proposal.

3 I can't do the Defence's work, but I think

4 that it might be more reasonable to postpone this

5 hearing yet once again so that you can be in a position

6 to come to argue your motion. Or there's another

7 possibility that we can discuss as well. You said that

8 you are not in a position to prove the allegations, and

9 if we discuss things as they stand now, you might not

10 have your motion granted.

11 Therefore, what is it that you're asking the

12 Chamber? Ultimately, that is the question that

13 Mr. Terrier asked. What is the purpose of your

14 motion? Where does it stand?

15 MR. KOSTIC: Your Honour, what I would ask

16 for, and I think what would make most sense in order to

17 do this motion just once, I would like the opportunity

18 to do everything at one time, which would be to submit

19 all of the written documents, affidavits, and then also

20 make an oral presentation which, of course, would be

21 much shorter, and we could take care of it at one

22 time. That is what I would -- I would prefer it, of

23 course, if I could. I don't think it would in any way

24 affect the working of the Chamber.

25 And I think the other thing is that by

Page 105

1 submitting these documents ahead of time to the

2 Prosecution, they would have an ability to review them

3 and comment on them. In other words, I wouldn't be

4 just handing them to them the morning of or minutes

5 before the hearing.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps the

7 most reasonable thing to do would be to reason the way

8 you have, and to take a decision, I've got to consult

9 my colleague Judge Wald. All right. I'm going to ask

10 you to excuse me for a moment.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're going

13 to take a break, because the Chamber would like to have

14 a response to the question about what happened with the

15 documents that were not sent to Mr. Kostic in due

16 time. And after the break, we'll take a decision.

17 In any case, before we take our break, I

18 would like to tell the parties that for today we had

19 planned to discuss the request for provisional release,

20 but there were other issues having to do with the

21 pre-trial management of the case.

22 So we'll take a break, and after that we'll

23 come back to take decisions on the question of

24 provisional release, and then we'll continue with the

25 pre-trial management of the case itself.

Page 106

1 I would ask Diana, our registrar, to get us

2 some information about the question raised by

3 Mr. Kostic.

4 We'll take a 20-minute break.

5 --- Recess taken at 4.25 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.57 p.m.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Diana, have

8 we received an explanation, and if so, would you give

9 it to us.

10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

11 Honour. The Registry apologises for the delay that it

12 caused to this hearing.

13 The explanation of the Registry is as

14 follows: The ordinary procedure has us fax all

15 decisions rendered by the Chambers on the very day that

16 they are rendered, except when the Registry knows that

17 the counsel in question will be in The Hague for his

18 work or to see his client. In that case, the Registry

19 is responsible for the trip of the counsel, and

20 considering that Mr. Kostic came to The Hague from the

21 23rd to the 25th of May, 2000 -- therefore the Registry

22 realising Mr. Kostic was going to The Hague on those

23 dates, they did not fax that decision to Mr. Kostic,

24 put it into his mailbox. We looked in that mail box

25 and we found the decision there. Therefore it has been

Page 107

1 in his mailbox ever since the 17th of May.

2 Unfortunately, that mailbox was not checked for some

3 time.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you

5 give these documents to Mr. Kostic these documents

6 now?

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr.

8 President. I will take it down to reception to give

9 you all of the documents that we found in his mailbox

10 today.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That is why

12 it took you so long?

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Well, we had

14 to first see if we could -- find out whether the

15 documents had been faxed, and then we realised

16 Mr. Kostic had come on the 23rd of May to The Hague,

17 and so we put the documents in his mailbox and we had

18 to investigate things on that side.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 Thank you very much for your explanations.

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The order in

22 question is at the very top of the documents.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We have to

24 take notice of the fact that the order really was

25 signed on that day and was really registered on that

Page 108

1 date.

2 Mr. Kostic, now you've got all the decisions,

3 and the Chamber will grant to you 15 days to support

4 your request with the documents that you consider

5 necessary. Therefore, the Chamber, instead of not

6 granting the motion, will give you that extra time.

7 We're going to do that in writing, and the Prosecutor

8 will have the time to make a statement about the

9 documents, and the Chamber will take its decision

10 following that.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy

12 pointed out to me that we're giving a time period to

13 Mr. Kostic to submit to the Chamber the documents in

14 support of his motion, the Prosecutor will have the

15 opportunity to respond, and the Chamber, after that,

16 without needing another hearing, will render its

17 decision.

18 We will now move on, Mr. Kostic, and you

19 should know that all this time that we're wasting here

20 is very expensive for the International Community, and

21 so one must be careful to be sure that this does not

22 happen again.

23 Now let me move to a discussion with the

24 parties about the pre-trial status of the case. As you

25 know, the last conference was held on the 11th of

Page 109

1 April, 2000, and we now have to review the progress

2 made in the preparation of the case.

3 The following issues will be discussed now,

4 at least three points we have to deal with: the

5 disclosure of documents in accordance with Article

6 66(A)(ii) of the Rules; the second point will be the

7 preparations of the Defence; and thirdly, the

8 submission by the Prosecutor of exhibits mentioned in

9 65 ter of the Rules. We are going to check the

10 objective sought by that Rule.

11 First point, the disclosure of material by

12 the Prosecutor. Since the last Status Conference, we

13 were able to see that the Prosecutor has finalised the

14 disclosure to the Defence the documents mentioned in

15 Rule 66(A)(i). The Chamber granted the Prosecutor an

16 extension of time, until today, to disclose the

17 documents mentioned in 66(A)(ii) in B/C/S.

18 Mr. Terrier, could you please tell us whether

19 all these documents have been disclosed now.

20 MR. TERRIER: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

21 the totality of those documents are here at the

22 disposal of Mr. Kostic, who would like us to mail them

23 to him rather than taking them with him. But in any

24 event, we are meeting the decisions of the Chamber.

25 I simply wish to say, as you referred to

Page 110

1 66(A)(i), that the document I mentioned to the Tribunal

2 are files regarding the mortars and raids of Sarajevo,

3 and snipers that shelled Sarajevo, but they include

4 also other types of documents which we are, strictly

5 speaking, not obliged to disclose but we are disclosing

6 nevertheless, and they are reports on the part of

7 investigators, experts, regarding these snipers and

8 shelling, and all these documents, in any event, are at

9 the disposal of Mr. Kostic.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 Thank you. The Prosecutor has said -- I'm not sure.

12 Have you had any communication with the Prosecutor?

13 Can you confirm what the Prosecutor has just said, that

14 they have been disclosed to you?

15 MR. KOSTIC: Your Honour, I think you have to

16 understand that I do not know all of the information

17 and all of the documents that the Prosecution has. I

18 only know what they have given me.

19 Pursuant to, I believe, your order on the

20 11th of April, on May 12th to 13th -- I'm not sure of

21 the date -- I did receive seven binders which were

22 identified with certain types of witnesses, and

23 essentially they were called -- one binder was

24 "shelling witnesses," another binder was called

25 "expert witnesses," another binder was "UNMO

Page 111

1 witnesses," another one was "UNPROFOR witnesses"

2 another was called --

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Kostic,

4 excuse me for interrupting you. You will have an

5 opportunity of reviewing all those documents. Perhaps

6 this is not quite the time to tell us which documents

7 are contained in the binders. The Prosecutor has told

8 you that he will send you or make available to you all

9 those documents now.

10 MR. KOSTIC: I received the documents I've

11 indicated to you. There was one other group called

12 "international civil affairs witnesses"; those

13 documents, once they arrived in my office, the

14 Prosecutor indicated that they were sent to me in

15 error. So without looking at them, I sent them back,

16 so I don't know what is contained in those documents.

17 Those documents I do not have, as of today's date.

18 They are not in my possession. They -- pursuant to

19 their request, were sent to them. So those are the

20 documents I have.

21 I'm also told that the Prosecution will be

22 sending me additional documents, fourteen binders

23 available today, and that sometime in the next -- and I

24 don't have an approximation as to the time, but I will

25 be receiving approximately another 80.000 pages of

Page 112

1 discovery materials in regard to this case, but

2 obviously arrangements have to be made to receive those

3 80.000 pages of discovery. That is what has been told

4 to me by the Prosecution, and that's what I know, and

5 I've told you the amount of discovery that I received

6 as of today.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you

8 any comments to make, Mr. Prosecutor?

9 MR. TERRIER: [Interpretation] No, Your

10 Honour. I'm sorry that these 14 binders which we are

11 communicating to Mr. Kostic contain a large number of

12 pages, not quite 80.000, but it is an important case

13 and I think that Mr. Kostic must study those documents

14 as quickly as possible so that we can proceed

15 normally.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

17 Mr. Terrier, that is what I'm concerned about; that is,

18 that we must get on with the case and end the pre-trial

19 stage.

20 I must go on to the second item, that is, the

21 preparations of the Defence. I draw attention, first

22 of all, of Mr. Kostic to the fact that the Chamber had

23 to reject a preliminary motion regarding defects in

24 form of the indictment because it was submitted more

25 than two months after the deadline. However, the

Page 113

1 Chamber has noted that in another motion regarding the

2 documents required, the Defence relied on rules of

3 procedure that are inapplicable before this Tribunal.

4 And the motion for provisional release of General Galic

5 is a good example, as I have just said. It is an

6 urgent motion, and a very important one, a serious one,

7 and we are where we are today since the motion was

8 filed.

9 So I would like Mr. Kostic to explain why

10 this is so. As I have told you, we have many things to

11 do, we have a lot of work to do, and I would like to

12 have an explanation why you filed all these motions

13 which question the procedures applied by the Tribunal

14 without respecting the time limits; in other words,

15 they were not filed in a timely fashion. Can you

16 explain that to us, Mr. Kostic, why this is so?

17 MR. KOSTIC: Your Honour, we discussed this

18 same issue at the April 11th meeting, and I have your

19 decisions on the motions. It only deals, really, with

20 one motion that I think the Court felt was untimely.

21 The other motions that were filed were just rejected

22 for the reasons indicated, and at that point my work

23 began to work on the building of the defence. So all I

24 can tell you is that my work is in that direction. I

25 suspect that with the discovery materials that I'm

Page 114

1 going to be receiving, I'm going to be using up all of

2 the hours that are available to me in order to prepare

3 both the defence, but also to review what is being

4 given to me. As you know, the Registry has limited our

5 time that we can work on any one case; they've cut back

6 by 50 hours per month.

7 So I will do the best I can and I will move

8 ahead with that, but you have to realise, on the basis

9 of what has been told to you this afternoon, that I

10 have an absolute mountain of information that I have to

11 go through, and only I can review that.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any

13 event, Mr. Kostic, so that things should be quite

14 clear, the Chamber must know the position of General

15 Galic.

16 General Galic, would you please stand.

17 [The accused stands]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you have

19 any observations to make with regard to the preparation

20 of your defence.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I find it

22 difficult to give you a definitive answer because, as

23 far as I can see, these materials are still arriving,

24 so that a large number of those documents are not

25 available to me, or are only available in English so I

Page 115

1 cannot follow. I expected to receive today some

2 materials, as was indicated.

3 Regarding my defence, I said last time that

4 the appointment, the temporary appointment, which is

5 still in force, affects the organisation of the Defence

6 and its work, and I think an attorney should be

7 designated who will be a permanent Defence counsel.

8 Whether that will be Mr. Kostic or someone else, for

9 the moment, I still favour Mr. Kostic as a choice. I

10 can see that something is wrong but I'm not

11 sufficiently legally educated to know what it is that

12 is causing an obstacle. That would be my answer in

13 brief.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

15 General Galic.

16 [The accused sits down]

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're now

18 going to go on to the third point, the disclosure of

19 documents by the Prosecutor, not 65 ter of the Rules

20 but a certain outlook regarding the future.

21 You know that some documents mentioned in

22 Rule 66 will be disclosed today, so we thereby have

23 reached a new stage in the proceedings. Therefore, I

24 would like to hear the views of the parties, beginning

25 with the Prosecutor, as to whether he can inform us

Page 116

1 regarding the status of the preparations in line with

2 Rule 65 ter of the Rules of Procedure, Rule 65 ter (E),

3 and specifically whether the parties have had a chance

4 to meet to discuss the pre-trial proceedings.

5 Where do we stand in relation to the

6 pre-trial stage?

7 MR. TERRIER: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

8 the situation is as follows: We are communicating

9 today, within the frameworks given by the Chamber, the

10 documents in English and in Serbo-Croatian so that

11 General Galic can himself take part in his defence.

12 A few days ago we sent to Mr. Kostic a fax

13 reminding him of the rulings of the Chamber and asking

14 him to set a date for a possible meeting so that we

15 might review the indictment and the charges it

16 contains, and also examine what would be accepted as

17 proven, of which judicial notice could be taken, and

18 what will be challenged. We will not be able to

19 organise that meeting next week, but before the end of

20 the month, if that is possible and if Mr. Kostic is

21 agreeable.

22 After that first stage, we would like -- and

23 those are questions that we put to Mr. Kostic -- we

24 would like to meet with General Galic himself. Of

25 course, General Galic is quite free to agree or not to

Page 117

1 answer our questions. But we would like to make such a

2 request for a meeting with General Galic.

3 After that we would be, we hope, in a

4 position, within the deadline set by the Chamber, that

5 is, the 10th of July, to communicate a pre-trial

6 brief. That is where we stand at present.

7 A question that I would like to raise may be

8 a secondary one but it has to do with translation. In

9 another case before your Chamber, we were told that we

10 would have to submit our motions, requests, and briefs

11 in English and French simultaneously. I'm quite in

12 favour of this but I'm asking whether it might be

13 possible to give the Prosecution, and of course the

14 Defence, additional time for the translation to be

15 completed, because the Chamber knows that we do not

16 have our own translation services and we're not

17 managing to deal with this translation problem. If we

18 have a 50-page document of a pre-trial brief, it would

19 require about two weeks for translation, and if we need

20 to have it translated, as instructed by the Chamber,

21 this would delay matters. So that is my concern.

22 Perhaps the Chamber would agree, in this sort

23 of transitional period, when these rules are not fully

24 established, that we might give a certain extended time

25 for the other language, if we could have additional

Page 118

1 time for the translation into the other language. That

2 would be a matter I should like to put before you.

3 We are at the disposal of Mr. Kostic for a

4 meeting, we would like to meet General Galic, if he

5 wants to meet us, and we will be able, by the 10th of

6 July, in one of the languages of the Tribunal -- I may

7 add, it will probably be in English -- to submit our

8 pre-trial brief and all the other documents envisaged

9 by Rule 65 ter (E).

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Kostic,

11 what are your comments regarding this forecast of the

12 pre-trial proceedings.

13 MR. KOSTIC: I'm troubled by it because of

14 the information that I received in terms of the amount

15 of discovery that I'm going to be receiving. It is, in

16 my opinion, absolutely impossible to do that with the

17 amount of the discovery materials that I will be

18 receiving. I can't see how it can be done on the basis

19 of the new rules of the Registry.

20 I'm being very honest with you because I am

21 trying to determine, in my own mind, the amount of time

22 that one needs to read and analyse the documents which

23 will be forthcoming. It isn't just a matter of reading

24 a document, it's a matter of analysing it and seeing

25 how it fits into the case.

Page 119

1 So I'm troubled by it, and if I was to give

2 you a forecast, it would not be a very good forecast

3 because I don't think I have all the information needed

4 to give you such a forecast. I don't know, for

5 example, whether any of the discovery raises any

6 additional issues, whether any of the discovery points

7 the nature of the defence in one area or another, and

8 things of that nature; I am also not sure in terms of

9 the expert testimony which is coming, what will cause

10 that to the Defence in terms of having to respond,

11 research, and do those things. So I find that I'm

12 troubled by it, and I think it will be very difficult.

13 I always do like to meet with counsel and

14 discuss the issues and cases and all of that, but

15 unfortunately, at this point, I don't know, let's say,

16 in two or three weeks, if I work on the case which I

17 will, whether I still would be in a position, with all

18 of the materials that are coming in, to be able to tell

19 the Prosecutor, "Yes, I agree with you; we don't have a

20 problem on this fact," or not, because I just don't --

21 I don't know what's there, is what I'm trying to tell

22 you. So I have some doubts whether it can be done that

23 quickly. That's my response, at least in terms of one

24 of the comments by the Prosecutor.

25 As far as the meeting with General Galic, I

Page 120

1 think that will not occur now. He is not in a position

2 to do that at the present time. I think he wants to go

3 through the materials, he wants to discuss the matter

4 with me, and then that decision will be made down the

5 road, whether he does or does not want to meet with the

6 Prosecutor.

7 I hope I've answered, I think, the three

8 questions you had.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

10 very much, Mr. Kostic. Perhaps, this is a suggestion I

11 would like to make, it would be a good idea to have a

12 meeting with the Prosecutor at least to discuss the

13 quantity of documents so that you can have some

14 guidelines. I think it would be useful. I'm not

15 saying to the Prosecutor that this issue should be

16 discussed, I'm just saying that it would be useful,

17 perhaps, to have a first glance at the indictment,

18 which is a public document -- it has been in existence

19 for a long time -- to see if there are things that

20 General Galic can accept straight away and others that

21 he will never accept, and a whole series of other minor

22 matters which could have considerable repercussions

23 even in the preparatory work of the Defence.

24 So I'm just leaving this suggestion with you,

25 with the parties. I think that the first step, to work

Page 121

1 effectively and efficiently, would perhaps be to meet;

2 that is what I think, but of course I can't impose it

3 on you.

4 There is another aspect to this matter. The

5 Prosecutor, Mr. Terrier, mentioned the date of the 10th

6 of July, and it is true that we set that date. But

7 that date had before it the dates of the 30th of May,

8 the 1st of June, the 5th of June, and the 8th of June,

9 and due to various preliminary motions and this motion

10 for provisional release, it was not possible and it is

11 not useful to have that Pre-Trial Conference then.

12 I'm talking as the Pre-Trial Judge now, and I

13 think that this pre-trial brief should be at the end of

14 the preparatory stage and not at the beginning.

15 Perhaps we need to review the whole calendar for the

16 pre-trial stage, because I do wish to give the parties

17 an opportunity to meet and discuss matters and then to

18 come to a Status Conference with the Pre-Trial Judge to

19 see what are the results of those discussions. One

20 might put aside straight away things, stipulations,

21 between the parties, they don't need any additional

22 work; then we can review the issues that are contested

23 and see whether any agreement can be reached on them;

24 and once we have heard each other and discussed these

25 matters, only then could we go on to the actual

Page 122

1 physical compilation of this brief.

2 That is my understanding of these

3 proceedings. Rather than having a pre-trial brief and

4 then discussing it, it is preferable to reverse the

5 order: to discuss things first, see what the agreements

6 and disagreements are, and after that we will have all

7 that in a file. I think that is the best way to

8 prepare a trial.

9 In my opinion, having a good pre-trial stage

10 is a guarantee for a good trial, which means if we

11 start badly in the pre-trial stage, it will be very

12 difficult to do well during the trial itself. But of

13 course this requires a certain amount of time, because,

14 as I have said, the Chamber does want to conclude the

15 pre-trial stage as soon as possible, that is to say, to

16 be ready to start the trial.

17 Even if we cannot start it as we have

18 planned -- I'm saying this in connection with the

19 question raised by Mr. Terrier at the last Status

20 Conference -- we need to be ready for the trial itself,

21 to begin the trial, and then we will see which Chamber

22 will be trying the case, this Chamber or another one.

23 But we can't begin if we're not ready. So we have to

24 complete the pre-trial stage in order to be able to

25 begin as soon as possible.

Page 123

1 Therefore, I think that perhaps the first

2 step, as I have already said, and I apologise for

3 repeating myself, would be for the parties to meet, to

4 talk, to see what the stones are and then deal with

5 them, what the issues are and then address them.

6 I think that for the moment there is nothing

7 more, at least not on my agenda. But in any case I can

8 open the floor to either of the parties if they have

9 anything to add.

10 Mr. Terrier.

11 MR. TERRIER: [Interpretation] I would take

12 the liberty of making a suggestion.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well,

14 suggestions are always welcome.

15 MR. TERRIER: [Interpretation] Apparently, in

16 this case file, the Defence is having some trouble

17 getting started, and so we're trying to set a date for

18 the next Status Conference, during which a report will

19 be given to the Trial Chamber about what's been

20 accomplished by both of the parties, by the Prosecution

21 and the Defence, in order to reach a sort of agreement,

22 or in any case, an observation as to what is in

23 agreement and what is not in respect of facts that are

24 in the indictment. I think we should have this time

25 period, because if we don't have this time period, I

Page 124

1 think it's going to be very difficult to move forward.

2 What I would like today is, at the end of

3 this meeting, for you to set a date for the period

4 during which the Status Conference will be held in

5 which we have to report on what has been done in

6 respect of the relationships between the parties and

7 the preparation of this case. I'm not talking about a

8 hearing to discuss provisional release but rather the

9 continuation of the preparations for this trial. I

10 think it would be good for us to do that.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

12 Mr. Kostic.

13 MR. KOSTIC: Your Honour, I understand, I

14 think, the position of the Prosecutor, having been one,

15 by the way, earlier in my career. This office has

16 investigated this particular matter, this case, since

17 1994, so they've had six years to work on the case.

18 They've collected information, they've interviewed

19 witnesses. They know the case, I would imagine,

20 extremely well. It's a good team, it's a large team,

21 and they're ready and prepared to go.

22 The problem is that I'm not in the same

23 position as they are. I've not had six years, I've not

24 had two years --

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Kostic,

Page 125

1 we are already familiar with those arguments. As a

2 member of the Bureau, and I've received all that

3 information, so we can go more directly to the question

4 of the date, please.

5 MR. KOSTIC: I'm very glad you're familiar

6 with that argument, because I think it's important in

7 this case.

8 What I have now is what's been outlined. It

9 has not been controverted by the Prosecution in terms

10 of the materials which will be receiving. I mean

11 that's obvious, so there's an awful lot of work to be

12 done. Remember, there's two things to do: one is to go

13 through the discovery materials, and the other is to

14 put together a defence. They're connected but

15 different work.

16 Your question is: Do I have any problems in

17 sitting down with Mr. Terrier and discussing the issues

18 of the case? The answer is no. I'm willing do that

19 and will continue dealing with him. But the problem,

20 of course, is I have to sit down with him, being

21 informed, knowing the issues in the case, knowing the

22 law in the case, and quite frankly knowing how I'm

23 going to defend any particular issue or aspect or count

24 in the case. So in the beginning, our conversations

25 are not going to be as useful because I'm still

Page 126

1 learning and going through the discovery materials, but

2 they will pick up.

3 Bottom line is I would be happy to meet with

4 Mr. Terrier. There may be some facts and issues which

5 are very straightforward. If they are, I don't have a

6 problem. And I will continue doing that. There's not

7 a problem in regard to doing that; I tell you that

8 clearly. However, again, you know what my concern is,

9 and I've said it and I'm not going to repeat, and that

10 has to do with the mountain of materials that I have.

11 Finally, I would think that we will need some

12 amount of time to come back to you and meet with a

13 Status Conference. I have some thoughts along that

14 line; I'm sure Mr. Terrier does. Whether you care to

15 hear it at some point, I would be happy to give you

16 some idea. But again, I will continue working and

17 dealing with the Prosecution on some of these issues.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

19 Mr. Kostic, we hope that that cooperation will

20 continue.

21 I have a question. Are you in a position,

22 before you leave The Hague, to meet with Mr. Terrier

23 for a first reading of the indictment? The indictment;

24 I'm speaking only about the indictment now.

25 MR. KOSTIC: I think I would have some time

Page 127

1 before I leave, although I am leaving tomorrow.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another

3 question. Is it possible to think that by three weeks

4 from now, we could have a Status Conference in order to

5 see where we stand?

6 MR. KOSTIC: I don't think -- I think it

7 would not be helpful. I do not think that I will be

8 able to go through everything that is coming my way in

9 terms of the discovery materials. I don't believe so.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let's say

11 the date already mentioned, the 10th of July. This was

12 already mentioned, that is, a month from now, the 10th

13 of July.

14 MR. KOSTIC: If you want me here on the 10th

15 of July to tell you how I'm doing, I'd be very happy to

16 come; I have no problem.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That means

18 that Mr. Kostic would make all efforts possible to go

19 through the documents. Perhaps I should not be the one

20 to suggest that to you, but you've got many documents

21 and I think that some of them could be left with

22 General Galic already so that he can move things

23 forward instead of sending everything to the United

24 States; to Mr. Kostic, rather. It's not for me to say

25 to you what you should do. Still, I'm trying to be

Page 128

1 practical. I'm trying to be practical. We are here in

2 order to do practical things.

3 I believe that having said this, we have

4 dealt with all the issues.

5 Just to summarise the most important things,

6 I would say that Mr. Kostic -- well, we've said 15

7 days, that is, the 23rd of June. I believe it's a

8 Friday. By that time, you're going to file the

9 documents necessary in support of the request for the

10 motion for provisional release. On the 10th of July,

11 we are going to meet again for a Status Conference, at

12 least in order to take the first look at where we stand

13 and possibly to programme the subsequent conferences,

14 because as I've said, I would like to programme things

15 from the point of view of having the parties here so

16 that they can work together. If Mr. Kostic is in the

17 United States and Mr. Terrier is here, it of course is

18 difficult to work together. Therefore, you have to

19 come to The Hague and stay here to work in order to

20 prepare the case properly. I think that that is the

21 most important thing that comes from this conference

22 today in terms of compromise and commitments.

23 I have only now the responsibility of giving

24 the floor to General Galic. General Galic, would you

25 rise please.

Page 129

1 [The accused stands]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I would

3 like to ask you whether you have any specific comments

4 having to do with your detention conditions or your

5 health.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

7 last time, on the 11th of April, I reported about my

8 medical condition. It hasn't changed significantly

9 since then. My problems with my leg persist, but I

10 hope -- and in fact I've been told that it will take a

11 whole year for the leg to be restored back to normal.

12 I also have some minor medical problems, but I have no

13 complaints regarding treatment.

14 The conditions in detention are such that I

15 have no objections to make. Thank you once again.

16 I made my comment last time about the

17 television. We do have a satellite programme now, so

18 we can watch Croatian television and Pink [phoen], but

19 we do not have the programme of our state, the State of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it would be nice if we could

21 follow those programmes as well. Thank you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You can be

23 seated.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 [The accused sits down]

Page 130

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't

2 think we have any other matters to deal with, and so I

3 adjourn the session, and we will see one another again

4 on the 10th of July to speak together about the

5 preparations for this case.

6 Good evening.

7 --- Whereupon the Motion Hearing

8 adjourned at 5.42 p.m.