1 Wednesday, 2 May 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [Status Conference]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.03 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone. Madam
7 Registrar, can you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: This is case number IT-98-29-PT, the Prosecutor
9 versus Stanislav Galic.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can we have the appearances,
11 please. The Prosecution first.
12 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, good morning, Your Honour. The Prosecutor's
13 Office is represented this morning by myself, Michael Blaxill, with my
14 colleagues Mr. Stefan Waespi and my case manager Ms. Edel Guzman.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And for the Defence?
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good morning. The
17 Defence for General Galic is represented by Mara Pilipovic, attorney at
18 law, here present. Thank you.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. We are
20 here today to take stock of the situation with respect to the pre-trial
21 preparations for this case. As you know, in accordance with the
22 Scheduling Order of the 26th of April, today's hearing will be devoted to
23 a Status Conference convened in accordance with the application of Article
24 65 bis of the Rules, with a view to review the progress made in preparing
25 the case.
1 We will also discuss the motion of the Prosecution with a view to
2 the Chamber travelling to Sarajevo, and perhaps we should begin with
3 that. But as we always discuss that matter in private session, I request
4 that we go into private session now.
5 [Private session]
13 Page 347 – redacted – private session.
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13 Page 349 – redacted – private session.
13 Page 350 – redacted – private session.
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session. I wish
20 to address other questions with you.
21 For today's Status Conference, I'm fully aware that this is a
22 Status Conference intended to open up fresh prospects for our future work,
23 and I think that in my opinion, that is, my opinion and the opinion of the
24 Chamber, that we should keep to our goal of completing the pre-trial phase
25 by July.
1 You are well aware for how long General Galic has been in
2 detention, and this Chamber will not accept for things to be prolonged
3 indefinitely. It is precisely for this reason that I wanted to see the
4 parties today. We are really going to take steps to complete the
5 pre-trial preparations, and I'm telling you this to say that we really do
6 have to finish. I think that the parties are well aware of this, and when
7 Ms. Pilipovic took over the case, she was well aware of where we stood.
8 We cannot allow this situation to continue.
9 I suggested last time that we prepare a plan of work because I
10 understood the position of the Defence, which cannot work with this
11 enormity of issues simultaneously, and that is why I suggested to you that
12 we take up the work that had already been done by the Prosecution, which
13 was more or less organised previously, so that the Defence can -- should
14 participate as we proceed with the preparations today.
15 And with that goal in mind, I should like to tell you something
16 else. The suggestion that I made at the last conference, and which you
17 accepted, to work with the legal officer of the Chamber, I am going to
18 tell you that tomorrow this is going to be a Rule of our Rules of
19 Procedure. I know, however, that the results have not been the results we
20 had expected, and therefore for today I should like to address again the
21 question of the points of disagreement.
22 I must say that the parties accepted the plan of work that I
23 suggested, and that the entire pre-trial was divided into three stages,
24 the first being the nature of the indictment, the facts of law and facts
25 that were in dispute; the presentation of testimony; and the third, all
1 the documents. The parties, it seemed to me, had accepted this
2 suggestion. I had suggested that the parties get together that very day to
3 make a timetable of their own. I still have no such timetable, and I
4 intend to make one. Unless the parties prepare a timetable, I will do it.
5 The Scheduling Order for this Status Conference already said that
6 in May, we would address the question of witnesses, and in June, the
7 exhibits, which means that this month we must, indeed, deal with both of
8 these issues.
9 In this light, I should like to give the floor to the parties for
10 them to tell me what were the results of their meetings, how many meetings
11 the parties had since the last Status Conference, and where we stand with
12 respect to the totality of what I called the first stage of the
13 preparations, that is, the nature of the Prosecution's case, the
14 agreements and disagreements of the parties on law and fact.
15 So as these are three matters that we need to address: meetings at
16 the time of the last Status Conference, other meetings, and the results of
17 those meetings, so let us hear you.
18 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. During that week, which I understand was the
19 week of the 15th of March, when there was the last Status Conference, Your
20 Honour, in fact there were meetings between Mr. Ierace and others of us
21 from time to time on a daily basis with Ms. Pilipovic in pursuance of the
22 objectives that Your Honour had discussed during that Status Conference.
23 Ms. Pilipovic did express her concerns to us, obviously, as to the
24 resources she has and the amount of work required to master materials, but
25 also indicated at that time certain areas where we were approaching
1 potential agreement or not, firstly, again, in respect of the travel issue
2 that has already been aired this morning; secondly, in respect of the
3 issues of the stipulations, if I can use that expression, that we had
4 submitted, matters of fact for agreement or disagreement; a considerable
5 schedule of 90, 100 or more facts which we had set forth originally for
6 Ms. Pilipovic's predecessor in the case. She has already made an initial
7 comment to us on the first 13 which she could answer from the materials
8 she held at the outset, and in respect of a meeting we had this morning,
9 has indicated that we will be able to deal with that in its entirety by
10 the end of this month, early June, when she would next be available for
11 about a week to be here in The Hague and meet with us on a regular, daily
12 basis, as I understand it.
13 As regards the other potential meetings, I think we have had a
14 couple towards the end of March, the last of which was, I think, the 26th.
15 I'm so sorry, April, we had meetings at the end of April. Again, we made
16 some progress. There was an issue that had been raised regarding
17 potential witnesses that might be called by both parties. It was causing
18 some concern. A memorandum agreeing on a procedure for that has been
19 signed. We have no dispute there, and we can make progress.
20 In turn, the Prosecution, we are -- we have invited our learned
21 friend to consider, as it were, a breakdown of areas of witnesses so that
22 as she addresses that block, she would then be able to discuss that with
23 us, and then hopefully we can get agreements and/or disagreements on
24 manageable chunks of witness evidence. That is a priority.
25 As a result, we are in fact breaking up the witness list and
1 breaking things into the components, and we're also breaking them down
2 into components along the lines indicated by Your Honour, that at the end
3 of the day you didn't want a simple alphabetical 65 ter list, you wanted
4 something that had the witnesses grouped and would give some meaning and
5 understanding to the witness list. So we are actively working daily on
6 that objective. That is our prime objective at the moment.
7 Any other issues are, in fact, being put back into second or third
8 place, very much to reflect what Your Honour said last time. This is the
9 order we want to go. Witnesses first, then how we present all this stuff,
10 and then at the end of the day, you know, the exhibits to follow.
11 In the meantime, we are creating, and have been all the while,
12 creating an equivalent exhibit list, and clearly with the ongoing
13 searches, of which I made Your Honour aware in the past, that these big
14 projects have been ongoing, and we are not masters of that. We just
15 receive the relevant information from them. You know, we have been duly
16 adding, amending, and preparing, and we have served as broadly as we can
17 under Rule 66(B) to Ms. Pilipovic, you heard from her. She has received
18 some considerable amount of material, but we have tried to do so within
19 the categories that she herself communicated so that we do not bombard her
20 with just so much documentation that she would sink.
21 I do, however, sympathise with the fact that there is a lot of
22 material in this case, Your Honour, and we can't get away from that. And
23 I sympathise with the fact that clearly in terms of her own resources,
24 there are limitations on my learned friend in terms of personnel and, you
25 know, what she can actually physically do and the size of team with which
1 she can do it. So we do sympathise with that position.
2 However, it is hoped from even our last meeting this very morning
3 before we came in here, we have agreed on a date to, as I say, to go
4 through all the potential facts which we have put forward for
5 potential stipulation to be agreed, and of course, that, in turn, would
6 shorten the evidence if that goes before the Court. Certainly we will
7 be able to polarise areas of disagreement, and I think once, as it were,
8 one cracks that position, that might, in turn, have a domino effect as to
9 legal issues.
10 So there is progress being made, Your Honour. I know it's not
11 immediately apparent to you --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask counsel to slow down, please.
13 MR. BLAXILL: It's not apparent to you, I appreciate that, but I
14 can assure you it is happening. And there is a developing, and has been a
15 developing, working relationship where we're trying to achieve these
16 objectives as soon as we possibly can and in the knowledge of my learned
17 friend's resources.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Blaxill, let me ask you a
19 question. The objective that we are talking about, that is, to finish the
20 pre-trial phase by July, does that sound reasonable to you, workable,
21 possible, or not?
22 MR. BLAXILL: I stand to be corrected by others, but my own
23 assessment would be, in all honesty, I don't think so. I think what we
24 can do is perhaps aim for such things as deadlines because that is always
25 a healthy pressure to keep people focussed.
1 I think if we are looking at the reality of being totally trial
2 ready, having completed all the searches that are ongoing in the building
3 to honour our commitments under the various rules for disclosure, and to
4 afford my learned friend time to prepare herself properly and present the
5 Defence as she wishes, it is my honest belief that we could not put a line
6 under July and say, "We are now ready and we can go completely."
7 Of course, we could start if that were the case, but it's my
8 understanding that the last indication from Chambers was that the trial
9 itself would commence in January. Now, I would not advocate that we
10 relax and put our feet up and say, "Fine, that's a long way off." It not
11 a long way off and time passes very quickly. And certainly we are going
12 to make every endeavour to complete our part of these things within the
13 kind of parameters Your Honour has been indicating; however, I think it's
14 true to say that many of the other issues depend on resolving the first
16 If we can press fast to try and reach the areas of, principally,
17 disagreement, and then the areas of agreement, I think we then are in a
18 position to tailor the evidence and say how can we use Rule 92 bis, how
19 can we use video conferencing, how can we make these things work
20 efficiently. But until we know those areas, I think it's impossible to
21 make those logistic decisions.
22 I simply feel that Ms. Pilipovic has recently received a lot more
23 material. She will need some time, Your Honour. We are in May. July
24 does seem a very tight deadline. But having said that, if we could just
25 keep it as a spur rather than as an absolute deadline, I think we will all
1 do our very best to work as fast as possible towards it.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I see, Mr. Blaxill. You
3 know that it was my idea to have a logical sequence in terms of Status
4 Conferences, and that logical sequence has an impact on the methodological
5 developments. I suggested a plan of work to you last time, and I told you
6 that it made no sense to speak about witnesses and exhibits if we do not
7 agree on the points of disagreement.
8 So the first issue, in my opinion, that needs to be addressed and
9 resolved is to see what the points of disagreement are and, of course,
10 what the points of agreement are. So in my view, that issue is a
11 priority. Bearing that in mind, I should like to hear your views
12 regarding the correct or adequate methodology in order to reach that
13 agreement on disagreement.
14 When I speak about points of disagreement, that, I think, is the
15 most important thing for us, that is, that we should have an agreement on
16 points of disagreement, because that will, of course, streamline the trial
18 So what are the measures, the steps that you think might be taken
19 in order to reach that goal, in order to reach an agreement on
21 MR. BLAXILL: Well, I think, Your Honour, we have two essential
22 vehicles here. The first clearly is the indictment. That is what we have
23 to prove and what the Defence have to answer, so I think that in itself is
24 something where we could go through and agree or disagree specific
25 portions. Now, that immediately tells us as the Prosecutors how much
1 evidence we do or do not need to prove the given points that are contained
2 in that part.
3 The second thing would be, in my submission, that we do have the
4 vehicle, as Your Honour suggested and asked us to do, we have the
5 pre-trial brief of the Prosecution, albeit as a provisional document in
6 draft, but it is a vehicle we can use. It sets out basically the legal
7 theories and some of the factual allegations that we propose to use and
8 rely upon in our case.
9 I think if my learned friend can look at those two in particular,
10 and the Rule 66(A)(2) disclosure by way of witness statements, I
11 think that has to be the core of the case. I'm very old fashioned and
12 assume that, you know, the best evidence is the word of mouth of the
13 witness of fact, and then everything else is packed in around.
14 I think if we can work from that basis, we should be able to
15 isolate the most important thing, which are the areas of dispute,
16 probably. From that point forward, we can then use the way that we are
17 presenting the witnesses and will assist Ms. Pilipovic as much as we can
18 with that so that she knows which witnesses seek to prove individual areas
19 of the indictment and the various elements of the offences, and I think,
20 with that, we should have a firm basis to consider the issues that remain
21 between us.
22 Documentary evidence, of course, often is very much supportive but
23 can, in such cases as this, be conclusive proof in various areas, so
24 obviously we can't look at the witnesses in isolation and we need to
25 follow that up with, you know, the exhibits that are -- or at least the
1 categories of exhibits so that people can turn their minds to the issues.
2 And I think that using that progress through the materials
3 probably would achieve our objectives fastest. Others may well disagree
4 with me, Your Honour, but that is my personal opinion. I just hope that my
5 learned trial lead is not the one who disagrees most.
6 Your Honour I think that is, in essence, it. And of course, in
7 order for my learned friend to suggest that by the end of this month/early
8 next she will deal in whole with the facts stipulated, I'm taking that as
9 an indication she will have been able to master sufficient of the material
10 in order to do that, and I think therefore it's a realistic way to go
11 about it. Clearly my learned friend has the right to approach the
12 materials as she sees fit.
13 I think that's the way -- in a sense, the way forward, and then
14 the logic that you've applied I can't quibble with, Your Honour. You
15 know, witnesses first, documents -- you know, the presentation of
16 testimony, and then what are we doing by way of exhibits. I think that's
17 a logical way to address it.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
19 Mr. Blaxill.
20 Ms. Pilipovic, what is your opinion of the issues that have just
21 been raised; that is, what do you think of the steps that need to be taken
22 after the month of March? What do you think -- how to best achieve the
23 goal that we have mentioned, and what is your perspective on the issue? I
24 should also like to hear you on the issue of your Defence team, and also
25 on pre-trial motions and pre-trial briefs of the Prosecution,
1 Ms. Pilipovic. Can you tell us something about that so that we can try to
2 move on with this case. You have the floor.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as my learned
4 colleague has just indicated, my first task would be to make myself
5 familiar with the material that I have just received. But notwithstanding
6 that material, I can go on working on the facts that have been discussed
7 by myself and my colleagues from the Prosecution.
8 We have managed to draft a work plan regarding the issues not in
9 dispute. Next week I will inform my colleagues from the Prosecution in
10 writing about the position of the Defence regarding the facts not in
11 dispute, and I hope I will soon receive their reply.
12 We also agreed that we should meet once again at the end of May,
13 beginning of June, to see what the situation is. And after that meeting,
14 we would inform you in writing about the progress that has been made in
15 respect of points of agreement and disagreement.
16 Any other suggestion that I might make, that is -- that was my
17 plan as regards facts. As regards the indictment and all other materials
18 suggested by my colleague, I will be able to discuss them only once I have
19 reviewed the documents that I have received. I shall do my best. I will
20 make every possible effort to do that, but in view of the extent of the
21 material, I will probably apply to the registry to be given another
22 assistant or co-counsel so that we can adequately prepare ourselves for a
23 fair trial that General Galic expects. So my problem is the fact that I
24 have to become familiar with the material.
25 A month ago we reached an agreement as to how we should work
1 with witnesses. We did have some difficulties in that area, both myself
2 and my colleagues from the Prosecution, bearing in mind your decision of
3 the 5th of June. We agreed that the decision should be altered in a
4 certain extent regarding 12 witnesses which were disclosed in the material
5 that has been given to the Defence by the Prosecution. In order for us to
6 be able to proceed, the Defence believes that it would be advisable, both
7 for the Prosecution and the Defence, to be enabled to have contact with
8 all of the witnesses who have been disclosed in the material belonging to
9 the Prosecution and the Defence without any obligation of the parties to
10 inform each other as to when and how they intend to work with witnesses.
11 One of the problems that we had in terms of working with
12 witnesses, and I think that applies both to myself and the Prosecution, is
13 the Defence -- is the decision which prevented the Defence from working
14 with witnesses because it was not clear to us whether potential witnesses
15 would be the witnesses of the Prosecution, that is, the witnesses that
16 have been disclosed in the material which has been given to the Defence by
17 the Prosecution. All witnesses by their nature who are mentioned in that
18 document would be actually witnesses of the Defence, but we managed to do
19 some -- to accomplish some work in that area so far.
20 So as regards to this month's work plan, I can just inform you
21 that my learned colleagues and myself have agreed to continue working on
22 the factual issues. I have enough material. As regards the first 13
23 facts, I have already given my opinion to the Prosecutor, and I expect
24 their answer, and after that, we will continue working on the issues of --
25 issues in dispute, and we will inform the Judges thereon.
1 I managed to review 28 maps in the past several days, and I think
2 that that material will be very important for our expert witness. And as
3 regards the issue of expert witnesses, we have been granted only 100 hours
4 from the registry to do that. I do not wish that to constitute another
5 difficulty in terms of Defence's ability to prepare themselves adequately
6 for the trial.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Pilipovic, let me go back
8 for a moment. During the last Status Conference we discussed the work
9 plan that I suggested to you, that is, that first of all we should have
10 agreements or disagreements on points of law and fact, thereby defining
11 the case of the Prosecution; and in view of the results of such
12 negotiations, we would then move on to the various forms of presenting the
13 evidence and the testimonies, and then the documents. I also suggested to
14 you that you should avail yourselves of the role of the legal officer in
15 this work. What we now manage to accomplish with your agreement will one
16 day become a rule.
17 I wanted to see whether you would agree to that proposed work plan
18 or not because the objective is also to facilitate your part of the work.
19 As you know, General Galic has the right to a fair and expeditious trial,
20 but it is also in the interests of the Tribunal to move on. The Tribunal
21 will not accept a status quo, an indefinite number of Status Conferences.
22 I have not made any calculations, but I think that we have had a
23 huge number of Status Conferences in this case. I am aware of the fact
24 that the Defence counsel has been changed, and we are aware of the
25 difficulties that you are facing, but we are really trying to find the
1 best possible work plan so that we can achieve results. And the main
2 objective, of course, is to complete the pre-trial phase of the
4 If the trial is going to start in January or not, that's not
5 something that would interest me at this point. What I should like to see
6 done is the pre-trial phase. We have to finish the preparation of the
7 trial. If we do not prepare the trial adequately, we will never be able
8 to proceed with the trial itself.
9 So I should like to hear you on the work plan, and also I should
10 like to hear you on the use of pre-trial brief which we have to a certain
11 extent tried to use, although it is in the draft form, but I still think
12 that it is a usable document and that we can take it as a starting point.
13 What is your view of that, Ms. Pilipovic?
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to mention a
15 fact that I don't think is in dispute here. In principle, I have accepted
16 your work plan, but it was in the month of March, on the 26th of March.
17 At that time I was informed by my learned colleagues that by the 6th of
18 April, I would be given the material which was indispensable for myself in
19 terms of preparations. The essence of my plan at that time, and the fact
20 that -- the reason why I accepted that work plan, was that I would receive
21 the material by the 6th of April, and that I would be able to acquaint
22 myself with that material and proceed with the work. However, I must tell
23 you that I only received that material, but I haven't had the time to look
24 at it. I, practically speaking, am not aware of the contents of that
25 material. That material is not going to be used only by myself. My
1 learned colleagues have informed me that they intend to use that material
2 during the proceedings.
3 At this point, Your Honour, I am making all possible effort in
4 order to speed up the preparatory phase of the trial, and I am aware of
5 the fact that General Galic has the right to an expeditious trial, but he
6 also has the right to a fair trial.
7 The reason for which I haven't been able for the past month to
8 proceed adequately was simply the fact that I did not have the material,
9 the relevant material. The material that I received by my learned
10 colleagues was just a small portion of the material that I needed. So
11 far, as I told you, I have received 33 videotapes and about 1.000
12 documents. In order for me to be efficient, I have to review the relevant
13 material with General Galic so that he can acquaint himself with the
14 material that is going to be used.
15 In order to move forward in this case, I suggested a plan with
16 which my colleagues have agreed, that is, that we should deal with the
17 issue of stipulations during this month and that we should be able to make
18 100 stipulations by the end of May, once again, bearing in mind the fact
19 that I have received 1.000 pages of documents.
20 And let me emphasise once again, that material was supposed to be
21 disclosed to me by the 6th of April, and that was the reason why at that
22 point in time I said that I would use the month of March and the month of
23 April to work on that material. However, I haven't had the opportunity to
24 review the material yet, and that is why my plan, my work plan for this
25 month, that is, to review this documents, is simply not going to work. I
1 will probably need more than two months, but of course I will do my best
2 to review as much as possible and to prepare myself for the stipulations
3 which constitute the basis for our common work in this case.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You don't need any more
5 documents, Ms. Pilipovic. I believe that you already have enough.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is my assessment, Your Honour,
7 that I have 33 videotapes - that is, that one tape is three hours long -
8 and I have 423 documents in one binder. Especially in view of the fact
9 that those documents have been invoked in terms of Rule 70, that is, that
10 they could not disclose them beforehand, but however, we managed to agree
11 that those documents would be disclosed to me, and the documents were
12 given approval by the United Nations, so eventually they were presented to
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Pilipovic, I'm sorry to
15 interrupt you. As regards the issue of stipulations, I think it is
16 something that needs to be discussed in another meeting. As you know, the
17 rules enable us to have meetings in chambers, in my office, and perhaps we
18 should use that opportunity.
19 But just a very practical suggestion: You can read the
20 indictment once again and see if there is anything that you can agree
21 upon. Of course, you can state your position as to the issues you
22 dispute. This is still a very general phase of the proceedings. We're not
23 discussing issues, detailed issues. We can perhaps try and apply this
24 very simple method: Have a look at the indictment, read it once again,
25 have a meeting with the Prosecution and try to find out if there are
1 points of dispute and non-dispute, and if there are points which are only
2 partially disputed or not.
3 It is not up to me to do your work, Ms. Pilipovic, but I have to
4 tell you that there is a preparatory phase of the trial, of the
5 proceedings. That is something that we have do before trial opens.
6 I will now give the floor to Mr. Blaxill so that he can inform us
7 of his view of the issues that have been raised by Ms. Pilipovic, in
8 particular, whether the Prosecutor has already -- I think we're talking
9 about documents that were submitted in support of the indictment, so
10 whether those documents have been disclosed to the Defence, what the
11 situation is, and also what your view is regarding the issues that have
12 been brought up by Ms. Pilipovic, in particular, regarding the decision of
13 the 5th of June and the issue of contact with witnesses.
14 MR. BLAXILL: To take Your Honour's first point: Of course the
15 supporting materials were served shortly after the arrest of General Galic
16 as part of our Rule 66(A)(1) obligations, so the documents that directly
17 supported the indictment were duly served at that time. Subsequent to
18 that, and I regret my memory doesn't allow me to recall the dates, but it
19 was only some weeks after that the flow to Mr. Kostic began of the
20 66(A)(2) materials, which were all the witness statements relative to the
21 counts in the indictment and, indeed, some of the background issues and
22 elements in the indictment. It is -- therefore, a lot of that material was
23 in hand but, of course, did not come into the possession of Ms. Pilipovic
24 until the end of last year when she took over from Mr. Kostic. Now I
25 understand that she had received all of that material by the end of the
1 year or early this year from him.
2 Subsequently, indeed there has been further disclosure as a
3 result, in part, of the ongoing searches, and yes, indeed, a considerable
4 amount of material has been forwarded to her. But I think as to the
5 general nature of the materials in support of the indictment, that it's
6 not a voluminous amount, and it's certainly something upon which
7 Ms. Pilipovic can work. But of course, it's greatly expanded by
8 subsequent disclosure.
9 Thus, as regards going forward to stipulations, yes, I mentioned
10 it earlier, I'd be more than happy if Ms. Pilipovic wanted to go through
11 the indictment and just use a red pen and a blue pen for what she thinks
12 she agrees and disagrees, and that would give us any indication of where
13 to go; and likewise, anything in the pre-trial brief that she would care
14 to highlight as areas of dispute or agreement, again, I think that would
15 help us where to go. And that would tailor, in a way, also the
16 presentation of the evidence because we could -- in negotiating a point in
17 dispute at that initial stage, we would, of course, draw attention to
18 relevant evidence, and then we could see whether or not that issue
19 remained an issue or was agreed. So I'm quite happy that we should
20 proceed on that basis.
21 Other than that, I think the June 5th decision -- essentially, I
22 think, we've resolved our issue. A memorandum has been signed by
23 Ms. Pilipovic, and independently signed by Mr. Ierace, and it is in fact
24 something we can now file that informs the Chamber that we have resolved
25 the issue regarding those witnesses. Essentially, there are 12 witnesses
1 contained in a letter of the 19th of January this year from the Defence to
2 the Prosecution. And we found at that time certain of these people had
3 been interviewed by the Prosecution and we had an intention of
4 interviewing others of them. As a result, what we have basically agreed,
5 and I don't think it will cause any problem to the Chamber, is as follows:
6 The parties are agreed that each side may interview or continue to
7 interview any or all of the 12 persons without a representative of the
8 other side being present. And further, the parties understand this
9 agreement does not affect the Rules of Evidence and Procedure as to who,
10 if any, of the 12 persons the Prosecution or Defence call as a witness.
11 So I think it's an example of an agreement, Your Honour. I don't think it
12 causes any further problems. So that issue, as I see it, is resolved,
13 unless my learned friend has any further comment.
14 Beyond that I don't think I can help you further unless there is
15 another specific issue you would like me to address, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know if Ms. Pilipovic
17 has anything to add on this point.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should just like
19 in this connection to add a comment on my part. My learned friends and
20 myself did agree on these 12 witnesses; however, in the assessment of the
21 Defence, it would be a good thing if both parties could have agreement to
22 work with all potential witnesses that occur in the materials of the
23 Prosecution and the Defence, all the witnesses, not just these 12. This
24 is something I have not discussed with my learned friends. As Mr. Mark
25 Ierace is not present, I don't know whether the colleagues here present
1 can take a position on this.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Pilipovic, I would rather
3 not discuss the question of witnesses now. What I am preoccupied with
4 primarily is agreements on fact and law, or matters of dispute. After
5 that, we can and should discuss witnesses. But in any event, I do
6 acknowledge your concerns, and I have an understanding for your problems.
7 But one must be logical. One must think about witnesses once we
8 know that we have to prove such and such a fact. We cannot think about
9 witnesses in the abstract. We talk about a witness because we need him to
10 prove such and such a fact. If we are not agreed on the points of
11 agreement and disagreement, then we can't move forward. That is the first
12 thing we have to resolve, otherwise, we'll be turning around in a circle.
13 So let me make a proposition to you. Ms. Pilipovic, have you
14 anything to add? I'm sorry, maybe I cut you short.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with regard to facts
16 which the parties need to agree on or which they disagree on, I have
17 presented my position, and that is that after reviewing the material in
18 the next two weeks I will be able to inform my learned friend which facts
19 I can agree with and which I disagree with so that -- and our next meeting
20 has been scheduled for the end of May which is a date that they have
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I think to go forward and to
23 go more directly to the crux of the matter, I think we need to bear in
24 mind a few points. The first is that tomorrow a new rule is coming into
25 effect of Rule 65 ter which stipulates that we should do what we have
1 already done in this case; that is, the participation of the legal officer
2 in the preparation of a work plan decided by the pre-trial Judge.
3 The second point is: I should like to know what is the view of
4 the parties and their readiness to work together; that is, Mr. Ierace and
5 Ms. Pilipovic, whether they're ready to work together to establish a
6 schedule. And that is what I had intended to be done with the legal
7 officer at our meeting of the 15th of March. We need such a timetable,
8 and that timetable should be a part of the work plan.
9 I have already told you that the objectives of that work plan are
10 mentioned in Rule 65 ter, and I don't need to repeat it. That work plan
11 will be one that will have the necessary methodology and conditions to
12 achieve that goal. We have to count on the availability of persons, the
13 availability of space, et cetera.
14 A third idea to be kept in mind is that we may establish this work
15 plan tomorrow or the day after, bearing in mind the information which the
16 parties have provided today.
17 So among these guidelines that I have just conveyed to you, there
18 is a point I have to learn from you, and that is the availability and the
19 readiness of the parties. Do we need to go into private session for that,
20 or not? I don't think so, but tell me when Mr. Ierace will be available.
21 I heard that you said this afternoon. And from Ms. Pilipovic, when she
22 will be here so that we can work. I prefer to hear from you when you are
23 available rather than to tell you in an authoritative way you have to
24 be available on such and such a day, which is something I could do, but I
25 should like to hear your views on this.
1 Mr. Blaxill, have I understood correctly that Mr. Ierace is
2 arriving today?
3 MR. BLAXILL: He's certainly arriving today, Your Honour, but I
4 believe his flight is schedule for about 10.00 this evening. I anticipate
5 him being in the office tomorrow. And in fact I know he has appointments
6 tomorrow, so yes, he should be here tomorrow. I don't know what his plans
7 are obviously immediately for work load for the next few weeks, but I
8 don't believe he's due on leave or out of the country.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you very much,
10 Mr. Blaxill.
11 Ms. Pilipovic, what about your time, please?
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm able to inform
13 you that I am here today because I have been in The Hague for the past ten
14 days. I'm leaving tomorrow morning. I can suggest that Mr. Ierace can
15 contact me and inform me regarding dates, and then I can let him know
16 whether they are suitable for me or not.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Perhaps you can
18 contact Mr. Fourmy who is here in front of me because, as I have told you,
19 we are going to prepare this work plan indicating the meetings with the
20 help of the legal officer to implement that work plan. And I told you
21 that the rule will come into effect tomorrow, but we have in fact already
22 started implementing it. But we are going to apply that rule, and I think
23 that we are going to tell you what this work plan will be, as well as the
25 Regarding the timetable, perhaps it would be convenient to contact
1 Mr. Fourmy to let him know when you are available, otherwise we will fix
2 the dates.
3 For the record, Mr. Fourmy, do you agree with this? Do you have
4 any suggestions regarding the implementation of this new rule?
5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no, at this stage.
6 Thank you.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question: Madam
8 Registrar, are there any problems regarding the formation of
9 Ms. Pilipovic's team or is everything progressing well?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, I'm not aware of any problems, but
11 I can speak with Christian Rohde and see if there's anything pending at
12 the moment.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. I think we
14 have taken stock of the situation. We have the guidelines for the future,
15 so we have to embark upon our work in earnest. The hearing is adjourned
16 for today until next time.
17 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at
18 11.12 a.m.