Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 345

1 Wednesday, 2 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [Status Conference]

4 --- Upon commencing at 10.03 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone. Madam

7 Registrar, can you call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This is case number IT-98-29-PT, the Prosecutor

9 versus Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can we have the appearances,

11 please. The Prosecution first.

12 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, good morning, Your Honour. The Prosecutor's

13 Office is represented this morning by myself, Michael Blaxill, with my

14 colleagues Mr. Stefan Waespi and my case manager Ms. Edel Guzman.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And for the Defence?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good morning. The

17 Defence for General Galic is represented by Mara Pilipovic, attorney at

18 law, here present. Thank you.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. We are

20 here today to take stock of the situation with respect to the pre-trial

21 preparations for this case. As you know, in accordance with the

22 Scheduling Order of the 26th of April, today's hearing will be devoted to

23 a Status Conference convened in accordance with the application of Article

24 65 bis of the Rules, with a view to review the progress made in preparing

25 the case.

Page 346

1 We will also discuss the motion of the Prosecution with a view to

2 the Chamber travelling to Sarajevo, and perhaps we should begin with

3 that. But as we always discuss that matter in private session, I request

4 that we go into private session now.

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18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session. I wish

20 to address other questions with you.

21 For today's Status Conference, I'm fully aware that this is a

22 Status Conference intended to open up fresh prospects for our future work,

23 and I think that in my opinion, that is, my opinion and the opinion of the

24 Chamber, that we should keep to our goal of completing the pre-trial phase

25 by July.

Page 352

1 You are well aware for how long General Galic has been in

2 detention, and this Chamber will not accept for things to be prolonged

3 indefinitely. It is precisely for this reason that I wanted to see the

4 parties today. We are really going to take steps to complete the

5 pre-trial preparations, and I'm telling you this to say that we really do

6 have to finish. I think that the parties are well aware of this, and when

7 Ms. Pilipovic took over the case, she was well aware of where we stood.

8 We cannot allow this situation to continue.

9 I suggested last time that we prepare a plan of work because I

10 understood the position of the Defence, which cannot work with this

11 enormity of issues simultaneously, and that is why I suggested to you that

12 we take up the work that had already been done by the Prosecution, which

13 was more or less organised previously, so that the Defence can -- should

14 participate as we proceed with the preparations today.

15 And with that goal in mind, I should like to tell you something

16 else. The suggestion that I made at the last conference, and which you

17 accepted, to work with the legal officer of the Chamber, I am going to

18 tell you that tomorrow this is going to be a Rule of our Rules of

19 Procedure. I know, however, that the results have not been the results we

20 had expected, and therefore for today I should like to address again the

21 question of the points of disagreement.

22 I must say that the parties accepted the plan of work that I

23 suggested, and that the entire pre-trial was divided into three stages,

24 the first being the nature of the indictment, the facts of law and facts

25 that were in dispute; the presentation of testimony; and the third, all

Page 353

1 the documents. The parties, it seemed to me, had accepted this

2 suggestion. I had suggested that the parties get together that very day to

3 make a timetable of their own. I still have no such timetable, and I

4 intend to make one. Unless the parties prepare a timetable, I will do it.

5 The Scheduling Order for this Status Conference already said that

6 in May, we would address the question of witnesses, and in June, the

7 exhibits, which means that this month we must, indeed, deal with both of

8 these issues.

9 In this light, I should like to give the floor to the parties for

10 them to tell me what were the results of their meetings, how many meetings

11 the parties had since the last Status Conference, and where we stand with

12 respect to the totality of what I called the first stage of the

13 preparations, that is, the nature of the Prosecution's case, the

14 agreements and disagreements of the parties on law and fact.

15 So as these are three matters that we need to address: meetings at

16 the time of the last Status Conference, other meetings, and the results of

17 those meetings, so let us hear you.

18 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. During that week, which I understand was the

19 week of the 15th of March, when there was the last Status Conference, Your

20 Honour, in fact there were meetings between Mr. Ierace and others of us

21 from time to time on a daily basis with Ms. Pilipovic in pursuance of the

22 objectives that Your Honour had discussed during that Status Conference.

23 Ms. Pilipovic did express her concerns to us, obviously, as to the

24 resources she has and the amount of work required to master materials, but

25 also indicated at that time certain areas where we were approaching

Page 354

1 potential agreement or not, firstly, again, in respect of the travel issue

2 that has already been aired this morning; secondly, in respect of the

3 issues of the stipulations, if I can use that expression, that we had

4 submitted, matters of fact for agreement or disagreement; a considerable

5 schedule of 90, 100 or more facts which we had set forth originally for

6 Ms. Pilipovic's predecessor in the case. She has already made an initial

7 comment to us on the first 13 which she could answer from the materials

8 she held at the outset, and in respect of a meeting we had this morning,

9 has indicated that we will be able to deal with that in its entirety by

10 the end of this month, early June, when she would next be available for

11 about a week to be here in The Hague and meet with us on a regular, daily

12 basis, as I understand it.

13 As regards the other potential meetings, I think we have had a

14 couple towards the end of March, the last of which was, I think, the 26th.

15 I'm so sorry, April, we had meetings at the end of April. Again, we made

16 some progress. There was an issue that had been raised regarding

17 potential witnesses that might be called by both parties. It was causing

18 some concern. A memorandum agreeing on a procedure for that has been

19 signed. We have no dispute there, and we can make progress.

20 In turn, the Prosecution, we are -- we have invited our learned

21 friend to consider, as it were, a breakdown of areas of witnesses so that

22 as she addresses that block, she would then be able to discuss that with

23 us, and then hopefully we can get agreements and/or disagreements on

24 manageable chunks of witness evidence. That is a priority.

25 As a result, we are in fact breaking up the witness list and

Page 355

1 breaking things into the components, and we're also breaking them down

2 into components along the lines indicated by Your Honour, that at the end

3 of the day you didn't want a simple alphabetical 65 ter list, you wanted

4 something that had the witnesses grouped and would give some meaning and

5 understanding to the witness list. So we are actively working daily on

6 that objective. That is our prime objective at the moment.

7 Any other issues are, in fact, being put back into second or third

8 place, very much to reflect what Your Honour said last time. This is the

9 order we want to go. Witnesses first, then how we present all this stuff,

10 and then at the end of the day, you know, the exhibits to follow.

11 In the meantime, we are creating, and have been all the while,

12 creating an equivalent exhibit list, and clearly with the ongoing

13 searches, of which I made Your Honour aware in the past, that these big

14 projects have been ongoing, and we are not masters of that. We just

15 receive the relevant information from them. You know, we have been duly

16 adding, amending, and preparing, and we have served as broadly as we can

17 under Rule 66(B) to Ms. Pilipovic, you heard from her. She has received

18 some considerable amount of material, but we have tried to do so within

19 the categories that she herself communicated so that we do not bombard her

20 with just so much documentation that she would sink.

21 I do, however, sympathise with the fact that there is a lot of

22 material in this case, Your Honour, and we can't get away from that. And

23 I sympathise with the fact that clearly in terms of her own resources,

24 there are limitations on my learned friend in terms of personnel and, you

25 know, what she can actually physically do and the size of team with which

Page 356

1 she can do it. So we do sympathise with that position.

2 However, it is hoped from even our last meeting this very morning

3 before we came in here, we have agreed on a date to, as I say, to go

4 through all the potential facts which we have put forward for

5 potential stipulation to be agreed, and of course, that, in turn, would

6 shorten the evidence if that goes before the Court. Certainly we will

7 be able to polarise areas of disagreement, and I think once, as it were,

8 one cracks that position, that might, in turn, have a domino effect as to

9 legal issues.

10 So there is progress being made, Your Honour. I know it's not

11 immediately apparent to you --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask counsel to slow down, please.

13 MR. BLAXILL: It's not apparent to you, I appreciate that, but I

14 can assure you it is happening. And there is a developing, and has been a

15 developing, working relationship where we're trying to achieve these

16 objectives as soon as we possibly can and in the knowledge of my learned

17 friend's resources.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Blaxill, let me ask you a

19 question. The objective that we are talking about, that is, to finish the

20 pre-trial phase by July, does that sound reasonable to you, workable,

21 possible, or not?

22 MR. BLAXILL: I stand to be corrected by others, but my own

23 assessment would be, in all honesty, I don't think so. I think what we

24 can do is perhaps aim for such things as deadlines because that is always

25 a healthy pressure to keep people focussed.

Page 357

1 I think if we are looking at the reality of being totally trial

2 ready, having completed all the searches that are ongoing in the building

3 to honour our commitments under the various rules for disclosure, and to

4 afford my learned friend time to prepare herself properly and present the

5 Defence as she wishes, it is my honest belief that we could not put a line

6 under July and say, "We are now ready and we can go completely."

7 Of course, we could start if that were the case, but it's my

8 understanding that the last indication from Chambers was that the trial

9 itself would commence in January. Now, I would not advocate that we

10 relax and put our feet up and say, "Fine, that's a long way off." It not

11 a long way off and time passes very quickly. And certainly we are going

12 to make every endeavour to complete our part of these things within the

13 kind of parameters Your Honour has been indicating; however, I think it's

14 true to say that many of the other issues depend on resolving the first

15 issues.

16 If we can press fast to try and reach the areas of, principally,

17 disagreement, and then the areas of agreement, I think we then are in a

18 position to tailor the evidence and say how can we use Rule 92 bis, how

19 can we use video conferencing, how can we make these things work

20 efficiently. But until we know those areas, I think it's impossible to

21 make those logistic decisions.

22 I simply feel that Ms. Pilipovic has recently received a lot more

23 material. She will need some time, Your Honour. We are in May. July

24 does seem a very tight deadline. But having said that, if we could just

25 keep it as a spur rather than as an absolute deadline, I think we will all

Page 358

1 do our very best to work as fast as possible towards it.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I see, Mr. Blaxill. You

3 know that it was my idea to have a logical sequence in terms of Status

4 Conferences, and that logical sequence has an impact on the methodological

5 developments. I suggested a plan of work to you last time, and I told you

6 that it made no sense to speak about witnesses and exhibits if we do not

7 agree on the points of disagreement.

8 So the first issue, in my opinion, that needs to be addressed and

9 resolved is to see what the points of disagreement are and, of course,

10 what the points of agreement are. So in my view, that issue is a

11 priority. Bearing that in mind, I should like to hear your views

12 regarding the correct or adequate methodology in order to reach that

13 agreement on disagreement.

14 When I speak about points of disagreement, that, I think, is the

15 most important thing for us, that is, that we should have an agreement on

16 points of disagreement, because that will, of course, streamline the trial

17 itself.

18 So what are the measures, the steps that you think might be taken

19 in order to reach that goal, in order to reach an agreement on

20 disagreement?

21 MR. BLAXILL: Well, I think, Your Honour, we have two essential

22 vehicles here. The first clearly is the indictment. That is what we have

23 to prove and what the Defence have to answer, so I think that in itself is

24 something where we could go through and agree or disagree specific

25 portions. Now, that immediately tells us as the Prosecutors how much

Page 359

1 evidence we do or do not need to prove the given points that are contained

2 in that part.

3 The second thing would be, in my submission, that we do have the

4 vehicle, as Your Honour suggested and asked us to do, we have the

5 pre-trial brief of the Prosecution, albeit as a provisional document in

6 draft, but it is a vehicle we can use. It sets out basically the legal

7 theories and some of the factual allegations that we propose to use and

8 rely upon in our case.

9 I think if my learned friend can look at those two in particular,

10 and the Rule 66(A)(2) disclosure by way of witness statements, I

11 think that has to be the core of the case. I'm very old fashioned and

12 assume that, you know, the best evidence is the word of mouth of the

13 witness of fact, and then everything else is packed in around.

14 I think if we can work from that basis, we should be able to

15 isolate the most important thing, which are the areas of dispute,

16 probably. From that point forward, we can then use the way that we are

17 presenting the witnesses and will assist Ms. Pilipovic as much as we can

18 with that so that she knows which witnesses seek to prove individual areas

19 of the indictment and the various elements of the offences, and I think,

20 with that, we should have a firm basis to consider the issues that remain

21 between us.

22 Documentary evidence, of course, often is very much supportive but

23 can, in such cases as this, be conclusive proof in various areas, so

24 obviously we can't look at the witnesses in isolation and we need to

25 follow that up with, you know, the exhibits that are -- or at least the

Page 360

1 categories of exhibits so that people can turn their minds to the issues.

2 And I think that using that progress through the materials

3 probably would achieve our objectives fastest. Others may well disagree

4 with me, Your Honour, but that is my personal opinion. I just hope that my

5 learned trial lead is not the one who disagrees most.

6 Your Honour I think that is, in essence, it. And of course, in

7 order for my learned friend to suggest that by the end of this month/early

8 next she will deal in whole with the facts stipulated, I'm taking that as

9 an indication she will have been able to master sufficient of the material

10 in order to do that, and I think therefore it's a realistic way to go

11 about it. Clearly my learned friend has the right to approach the

12 materials as she sees fit.

13 I think that's the way -- in a sense, the way forward, and then

14 the logic that you've applied I can't quibble with, Your Honour. You

15 know, witnesses first, documents -- you know, the presentation of

16 testimony, and then what are we doing by way of exhibits. I think that's

17 a logical way to address it.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

19 Mr. Blaxill.

20 Ms. Pilipovic, what is your opinion of the issues that have just

21 been raised; that is, what do you think of the steps that need to be taken

22 after the month of March? What do you think -- how to best achieve the

23 goal that we have mentioned, and what is your perspective on the issue? I

24 should also like to hear you on the issue of your Defence team, and also

25 on pre-trial motions and pre-trial briefs of the Prosecution,

Page 361

1 Ms. Pilipovic. Can you tell us something about that so that we can try to

2 move on with this case. You have the floor.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as my learned

4 colleague has just indicated, my first task would be to make myself

5 familiar with the material that I have just received. But notwithstanding

6 that material, I can go on working on the facts that have been discussed

7 by myself and my colleagues from the Prosecution.

8 We have managed to draft a work plan regarding the issues not in

9 dispute. Next week I will inform my colleagues from the Prosecution in

10 writing about the position of the Defence regarding the facts not in

11 dispute, and I hope I will soon receive their reply.

12 We also agreed that we should meet once again at the end of May,

13 beginning of June, to see what the situation is. And after that meeting,

14 we would inform you in writing about the progress that has been made in

15 respect of points of agreement and disagreement.

16 Any other suggestion that I might make, that is -- that was my

17 plan as regards facts. As regards the indictment and all other materials

18 suggested by my colleague, I will be able to discuss them only once I have

19 reviewed the documents that I have received. I shall do my best. I will

20 make every possible effort to do that, but in view of the extent of the

21 material, I will probably apply to the registry to be given another

22 assistant or co-counsel so that we can adequately prepare ourselves for a

23 fair trial that General Galic expects. So my problem is the fact that I

24 have to become familiar with the material.

25 A month ago we reached an agreement as to how we should work

Page 362

1 with witnesses. We did have some difficulties in that area, both myself

2 and my colleagues from the Prosecution, bearing in mind your decision of

3 the 5th of June. We agreed that the decision should be altered in a

4 certain extent regarding 12 witnesses which were disclosed in the material

5 that has been given to the Defence by the Prosecution. In order for us to

6 be able to proceed, the Defence believes that it would be advisable, both

7 for the Prosecution and the Defence, to be enabled to have contact with

8 all of the witnesses who have been disclosed in the material belonging to

9 the Prosecution and the Defence without any obligation of the parties to

10 inform each other as to when and how they intend to work with witnesses.

11 One of the problems that we had in terms of working with

12 witnesses, and I think that applies both to myself and the Prosecution, is

13 the Defence -- is the decision which prevented the Defence from working

14 with witnesses because it was not clear to us whether potential witnesses

15 would be the witnesses of the Prosecution, that is, the witnesses that

16 have been disclosed in the material which has been given to the Defence by

17 the Prosecution. All witnesses by their nature who are mentioned in that

18 document would be actually witnesses of the Defence, but we managed to do

19 some -- to accomplish some work in that area so far.

20 So as regards to this month's work plan, I can just inform you

21 that my learned colleagues and myself have agreed to continue working on

22 the factual issues. I have enough material. As regards the first 13

23 facts, I have already given my opinion to the Prosecutor, and I expect

24 their answer, and after that, we will continue working on the issues of --

25 issues in dispute, and we will inform the Judges thereon.

Page 363

1 I managed to review 28 maps in the past several days, and I think

2 that that material will be very important for our expert witness. And as

3 regards the issue of expert witnesses, we have been granted only 100 hours

4 from the registry to do that. I do not wish that to constitute another

5 difficulty in terms of Defence's ability to prepare themselves adequately

6 for the trial.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Pilipovic, let me go back

8 for a moment. During the last Status Conference we discussed the work

9 plan that I suggested to you, that is, that first of all we should have

10 agreements or disagreements on points of law and fact, thereby defining

11 the case of the Prosecution; and in view of the results of such

12 negotiations, we would then move on to the various forms of presenting the

13 evidence and the testimonies, and then the documents. I also suggested to

14 you that you should avail yourselves of the role of the legal officer in

15 this work. What we now manage to accomplish with your agreement will one

16 day become a rule.

17 I wanted to see whether you would agree to that proposed work plan

18 or not because the objective is also to facilitate your part of the work.

19 As you know, General Galic has the right to a fair and expeditious trial,

20 but it is also in the interests of the Tribunal to move on. The Tribunal

21 will not accept a status quo, an indefinite number of Status Conferences.

22 I have not made any calculations, but I think that we have had a

23 huge number of Status Conferences in this case. I am aware of the fact

24 that the Defence counsel has been changed, and we are aware of the

25 difficulties that you are facing, but we are really trying to find the

Page 364

1 best possible work plan so that we can achieve results. And the main

2 objective, of course, is to complete the pre-trial phase of the

3 proceedings.

4 If the trial is going to start in January or not, that's not

5 something that would interest me at this point. What I should like to see

6 done is the pre-trial phase. We have to finish the preparation of the

7 trial. If we do not prepare the trial adequately, we will never be able

8 to proceed with the trial itself.

9 So I should like to hear you on the work plan, and also I should

10 like to hear you on the use of pre-trial brief which we have to a certain

11 extent tried to use, although it is in the draft form, but I still think

12 that it is a usable document and that we can take it as a starting point.

13 What is your view of that, Ms. Pilipovic?

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to mention a

15 fact that I don't think is in dispute here. In principle, I have accepted

16 your work plan, but it was in the month of March, on the 26th of March.

17 At that time I was informed by my learned colleagues that by the 6th of

18 April, I would be given the material which was indispensable for myself in

19 terms of preparations. The essence of my plan at that time, and the fact

20 that -- the reason why I accepted that work plan, was that I would receive

21 the material by the 6th of April, and that I would be able to acquaint

22 myself with that material and proceed with the work. However, I must tell

23 you that I only received that material, but I haven't had the time to look

24 at it. I, practically speaking, am not aware of the contents of that

25 material. That material is not going to be used only by myself. My

Page 365

1 learned colleagues have informed me that they intend to use that material

2 during the proceedings.

3 At this point, Your Honour, I am making all possible effort in

4 order to speed up the preparatory phase of the trial, and I am aware of

5 the fact that General Galic has the right to an expeditious trial, but he

6 also has the right to a fair trial.

7 The reason for which I haven't been able for the past month to

8 proceed adequately was simply the fact that I did not have the material,

9 the relevant material. The material that I received by my learned

10 colleagues was just a small portion of the material that I needed. So

11 far, as I told you, I have received 33 videotapes and about 1.000

12 documents. In order for me to be efficient, I have to review the relevant

13 material with General Galic so that he can acquaint himself with the

14 material that is going to be used.

15 In order to move forward in this case, I suggested a plan with

16 which my colleagues have agreed, that is, that we should deal with the

17 issue of stipulations during this month and that we should be able to make

18 100 stipulations by the end of May, once again, bearing in mind the fact

19 that I have received 1.000 pages of documents.

20 And let me emphasise once again, that material was supposed to be

21 disclosed to me by the 6th of April, and that was the reason why at that

22 point in time I said that I would use the month of March and the month of

23 April to work on that material. However, I haven't had the opportunity to

24 review the material yet, and that is why my plan, my work plan for this

25 month, that is, to review this documents, is simply not going to work. I

Page 366

1 will probably need more than two months, but of course I will do my best

2 to review as much as possible and to prepare myself for the stipulations

3 which constitute the basis for our common work in this case.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You don't need any more

5 documents, Ms. Pilipovic. I believe that you already have enough.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is my assessment, Your Honour,

7 that I have 33 videotapes - that is, that one tape is three hours long -

8 and I have 423 documents in one binder. Especially in view of the fact

9 that those documents have been invoked in terms of Rule 70, that is, that

10 they could not disclose them beforehand, but however, we managed to agree

11 that those documents would be disclosed to me, and the documents were

12 given approval by the United Nations, so eventually they were presented to

13 me.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Pilipovic, I'm sorry to

15 interrupt you. As regards the issue of stipulations, I think it is

16 something that needs to be discussed in another meeting. As you know, the

17 rules enable us to have meetings in chambers, in my office, and perhaps we

18 should use that opportunity.

19 But just a very practical suggestion: You can read the

20 indictment once again and see if there is anything that you can agree

21 upon. Of course, you can state your position as to the issues you

22 dispute. This is still a very general phase of the proceedings. We're not

23 discussing issues, detailed issues. We can perhaps try and apply this

24 very simple method: Have a look at the indictment, read it once again,

25 have a meeting with the Prosecution and try to find out if there are

Page 367

1 points of dispute and non-dispute, and if there are points which are only

2 partially disputed or not.

3 It is not up to me to do your work, Ms. Pilipovic, but I have to

4 tell you that there is a preparatory phase of the trial, of the

5 proceedings. That is something that we have do before trial opens.

6 I will now give the floor to Mr. Blaxill so that he can inform us

7 of his view of the issues that have been raised by Ms. Pilipovic, in

8 particular, whether the Prosecutor has already -- I think we're talking

9 about documents that were submitted in support of the indictment, so

10 whether those documents have been disclosed to the Defence, what the

11 situation is, and also what your view is regarding the issues that have

12 been brought up by Ms. Pilipovic, in particular, regarding the decision of

13 the 5th of June and the issue of contact with witnesses.

14 MR. BLAXILL: To take Your Honour's first point: Of course the

15 supporting materials were served shortly after the arrest of General Galic

16 as part of our Rule 66(A)(1) obligations, so the documents that directly

17 supported the indictment were duly served at that time. Subsequent to

18 that, and I regret my memory doesn't allow me to recall the dates, but it

19 was only some weeks after that the flow to Mr. Kostic began of the

20 66(A)(2) materials, which were all the witness statements relative to the

21 counts in the indictment and, indeed, some of the background issues and

22 elements in the indictment. It is -- therefore, a lot of that material was

23 in hand but, of course, did not come into the possession of Ms. Pilipovic

24 until the end of last year when she took over from Mr. Kostic. Now I

25 understand that she had received all of that material by the end of the

Page 368

1 year or early this year from him.

2 Subsequently, indeed there has been further disclosure as a

3 result, in part, of the ongoing searches, and yes, indeed, a considerable

4 amount of material has been forwarded to her. But I think as to the

5 general nature of the materials in support of the indictment, that it's

6 not a voluminous amount, and it's certainly something upon which

7 Ms. Pilipovic can work. But of course, it's greatly expanded by

8 subsequent disclosure.

9 Thus, as regards going forward to stipulations, yes, I mentioned

10 it earlier, I'd be more than happy if Ms. Pilipovic wanted to go through

11 the indictment and just use a red pen and a blue pen for what she thinks

12 she agrees and disagrees, and that would give us any indication of where

13 to go; and likewise, anything in the pre-trial brief that she would care

14 to highlight as areas of dispute or agreement, again, I think that would

15 help us where to go. And that would tailor, in a way, also the

16 presentation of the evidence because we could -- in negotiating a point in

17 dispute at that initial stage, we would, of course, draw attention to

18 relevant evidence, and then we could see whether or not that issue

19 remained an issue or was agreed. So I'm quite happy that we should

20 proceed on that basis.

21 Other than that, I think the June 5th decision -- essentially, I

22 think, we've resolved our issue. A memorandum has been signed by

23 Ms. Pilipovic, and independently signed by Mr. Ierace, and it is in fact

24 something we can now file that informs the Chamber that we have resolved

25 the issue regarding those witnesses. Essentially, there are 12 witnesses

Page 369

1 contained in a letter of the 19th of January this year from the Defence to

2 the Prosecution. And we found at that time certain of these people had

3 been interviewed by the Prosecution and we had an intention of

4 interviewing others of them. As a result, what we have basically agreed,

5 and I don't think it will cause any problem to the Chamber, is as follows:

6 The parties are agreed that each side may interview or continue to

7 interview any or all of the 12 persons without a representative of the

8 other side being present. And further, the parties understand this

9 agreement does not affect the Rules of Evidence and Procedure as to who,

10 if any, of the 12 persons the Prosecution or Defence call as a witness.

11 So I think it's an example of an agreement, Your Honour. I don't think it

12 causes any further problems. So that issue, as I see it, is resolved,

13 unless my learned friend has any further comment.

14 Beyond that I don't think I can help you further unless there is

15 another specific issue you would like me to address, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know if Ms. Pilipovic

17 has anything to add on this point.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should just like

19 in this connection to add a comment on my part. My learned friends and

20 myself did agree on these 12 witnesses; however, in the assessment of the

21 Defence, it would be a good thing if both parties could have agreement to

22 work with all potential witnesses that occur in the materials of the

23 Prosecution and the Defence, all the witnesses, not just these 12. This

24 is something I have not discussed with my learned friends. As Mr. Mark

25 Ierace is not present, I don't know whether the colleagues here present

Page 370

1 can take a position on this.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Pilipovic, I would rather

3 not discuss the question of witnesses now. What I am preoccupied with

4 primarily is agreements on fact and law, or matters of dispute. After

5 that, we can and should discuss witnesses. But in any event, I do

6 acknowledge your concerns, and I have an understanding for your problems.

7 But one must be logical. One must think about witnesses once we

8 know that we have to prove such and such a fact. We cannot think about

9 witnesses in the abstract. We talk about a witness because we need him to

10 prove such and such a fact. If we are not agreed on the points of

11 agreement and disagreement, then we can't move forward. That is the first

12 thing we have to resolve, otherwise, we'll be turning around in a circle.

13 So let me make a proposition to you. Ms. Pilipovic, have you

14 anything to add? I'm sorry, maybe I cut you short.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with regard to facts

16 which the parties need to agree on or which they disagree on, I have

17 presented my position, and that is that after reviewing the material in

18 the next two weeks I will be able to inform my learned friend which facts

19 I can agree with and which I disagree with so that -- and our next meeting

20 has been scheduled for the end of May which is a date that they have

21 accepted.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I think to go forward and to

23 go more directly to the crux of the matter, I think we need to bear in

24 mind a few points. The first is that tomorrow a new rule is coming into

25 effect of Rule 65 ter which stipulates that we should do what we have

Page 371

1 already done in this case; that is, the participation of the legal officer

2 in the preparation of a work plan decided by the pre-trial Judge.

3 The second point is: I should like to know what is the view of

4 the parties and their readiness to work together; that is, Mr. Ierace and

5 Ms. Pilipovic, whether they're ready to work together to establish a

6 schedule. And that is what I had intended to be done with the legal

7 officer at our meeting of the 15th of March. We need such a timetable,

8 and that timetable should be a part of the work plan.

9 I have already told you that the objectives of that work plan are

10 mentioned in Rule 65 ter, and I don't need to repeat it. That work plan

11 will be one that will have the necessary methodology and conditions to

12 achieve that goal. We have to count on the availability of persons, the

13 availability of space, et cetera.

14 A third idea to be kept in mind is that we may establish this work

15 plan tomorrow or the day after, bearing in mind the information which the

16 parties have provided today.

17 So among these guidelines that I have just conveyed to you, there

18 is a point I have to learn from you, and that is the availability and the

19 readiness of the parties. Do we need to go into private session for that,

20 or not? I don't think so, but tell me when Mr. Ierace will be available.

21 I heard that you said this afternoon. And from Ms. Pilipovic, when she

22 will be here so that we can work. I prefer to hear from you when you are

23 available rather than to tell you in an authoritative way you have to

24 be available on such and such a day, which is something I could do, but I

25 should like to hear your views on this.

Page 372

1 Mr. Blaxill, have I understood correctly that Mr. Ierace is

2 arriving today?

3 MR. BLAXILL: He's certainly arriving today, Your Honour, but I

4 believe his flight is schedule for about 10.00 this evening. I anticipate

5 him being in the office tomorrow. And in fact I know he has appointments

6 tomorrow, so yes, he should be here tomorrow. I don't know what his plans

7 are obviously immediately for work load for the next few weeks, but I

8 don't believe he's due on leave or out of the country.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you very much,

10 Mr. Blaxill.

11 Ms. Pilipovic, what about your time, please?

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm able to inform

13 you that I am here today because I have been in The Hague for the past ten

14 days. I'm leaving tomorrow morning. I can suggest that Mr. Ierace can

15 contact me and inform me regarding dates, and then I can let him know

16 whether they are suitable for me or not.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Perhaps you can

18 contact Mr. Fourmy who is here in front of me because, as I have told you,

19 we are going to prepare this work plan indicating the meetings with the

20 help of the legal officer to implement that work plan. And I told you

21 that the rule will come into effect tomorrow, but we have in fact already

22 started implementing it. But we are going to apply that rule, and I think

23 that we are going to tell you what this work plan will be, as well as the

24 timetable.

25 Regarding the timetable, perhaps it would be convenient to contact

Page 373

1 Mr. Fourmy to let him know when you are available, otherwise we will fix

2 the dates.

3 For the record, Mr. Fourmy, do you agree with this? Do you have

4 any suggestions regarding the implementation of this new rule?

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no, at this stage.

6 Thank you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question: Madam

8 Registrar, are there any problems regarding the formation of

9 Ms. Pilipovic's team or is everything progressing well?

10 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, I'm not aware of any problems, but

11 I can speak with Christian Rohde and see if there's anything pending at

12 the moment.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. I think we

14 have taken stock of the situation. We have the guidelines for the future,

15 so we have to embark upon our work in earnest. The hearing is adjourned

16 for today until next time.

17 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at

18 11.12 a.m.

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