Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 400

1 Friday, 7th September 2001

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 --- Upon commencing at 11.00 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, everybody. Good morning, General

7 Galic.

8 We are late, as you see, but the responsibility rests with me and

9 a few other people. But I shall accept whatever sanctions you want to

10 give me. So does anybody want to punish me? I see no initiative. I see

11 you will not hold it against me right now.

12 Right. We are here today for the Status Conference in the Galic

13 case, but first I have to ask Ms. Melinda to call the case, please.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic, Case

15 Number IT-98-29-PT.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much.

17 Can we now have the appearances, please? The Prosecution first.

18 MR. IERACE: Good morning, Your Honour. My name is Mark Ierace.

19 I appear in the Galic matter for the Prosecution as senior trial

20 attorney. With me today, on my right, are trial attorneys Michael

21 Blaxill, Chester Stamp and Stefan Waespi, and on my left is my case

22 manager, Ms. Adel Guzman.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

24 And for the Defence?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. The

Page 401

1 Defence of General Galic is represented by Mara Pilipovic. Thank you.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I shall now like to

3 propose to you the agenda with three items: First, to take stock of the

4 preparations, of how far the preparations have gone. I understand that

5 you were planning to meet towards the end of July or perhaps after that,

6 so we should like to see what happened. The second would be the timetable

7 and the date of the beginning of the trial. And the third item would be

8 miscellaneous, other business which the parties may wish to raise. And

9 there may be matters which may be dealt with in private session.

10 So on the first item, we are taking stock of the situation, and

11 could we now first hear from the Prosecution? This is Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, in the month of July, I met with

13 Ms. Mara Pilipovic, counsel for the Defence, on a number of cases, and we

14 had lengthy discussions on the subject of stipulations of fact,

15 disclosure, difficulties with legibility of some of the material which was

16 provided by the Prosecution to the Defence, which in turn reflected the

17 poor quality of available documentation.

18 Your Honour, those discussions were very fruitful. We were able

19 to refine further areas of dispute in relation to stipulated facts. We

20 also commenced some discussion of adjudicated facts, that is, facts which

21 have been a subject of determination by this Tribunal in earlier trials.

22 There were considerable areas of disagreement where, in effect, we agreed

23 to disagree. I expect there will be further refinement of those

24 stipulated facts in particular, and those facts will be handed up to the

25 Tribunal in due course.

Page 402

1 Your Honour, counsel for the Defence and I met again yesterday.

2 We had an update of our earlier discussions, some developments since then,

3 and we also discussed some other matters of mutual significance. Primary

4 amongst those were some difficulties experienced by both the Prosecution

5 and the Defence with the Translation Unit. If this is an appropriate

6 time, I'd seek to raise the issue at this stage. Otherwise, I could leave

7 it to the third item on the agenda. I'm in Your Honour's hands in

8 relation to that.

9 I can also report that in relation to what has been termed

10 "Project X," there is a development. Your Honour may recall that because

11 this is a trial in which reciprocal disclosure has been triggered, in

12 other words, each side must make available to the other material in its

13 possession which is material to the presentation of the opponent's case,

14 the Prosecution has had to embark on a major project in order to satisfy

15 that requirement. It has required the Prosecution to examine some 380.000

16 documents, comprising some two and a half million pages, in order to

17 determine whether amongst that material is anything which is material to

18 the presentation of the Defence case. That project is now on the point of

19 completion. We have, in particular, finished the stage of doing a

20 preliminary cull of all of those documents, and I anticipate that the

21 final bundle will be made available to the Defence in the next two weeks.

22 So far we have provided, from those 380.000 documents, 2.525 which

23 come within the categories identified by my friend as relevant to the

24 preparation of her case. I anticipate that there will be a further 900,

25 approximately, that will be made available to her in the next two weeks.

Page 403

1 Your Honour, would this be a convenient time for me to explain the

2 difficulties with the Translation Unit?

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Do proceed, Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: Your Honour will no doubt be aware that the

5 Translation Unit is a unit comprised of accredited translators who are

6 able to translate documentation from B/C/S into English or French, indeed,

7 to translate any documentation from any of those three languages into any

8 of the others. It is an invaluable resource, both to the Prosecution and

9 to the Defence. Your Honour, the Translation Unit has been sorely tested

10 over the last 12 months in particular with its resources. The end result

11 of that is that there are inordinate delays in obtaining final

12 translations from the unit.

13 I'll illustrate that with two examples: The first is a document

14 which was provided to the Translation Unit by the Galic team in 1999.

15 That document was partly in English and partly in B/C/S. It was not until

16 May of this year that the translation was received back from them. In

17 other words, it took up to two years to get back a document which had to

18 be translated into French from English and B/C/S.

19 My second example relates to material which was provided by my

20 friend in accordance with the requirements of reciprocal disclosure. We

21 have received a number of bundles of documents from the Defence since

22 January. The bundle we received in January was duly processed,

23 identification numbers were placed on it, and it was forwarded to the

24 Translation Unit for translation. In September, the month we are now in,

25 we still have not received back from the Translation Unit all of that

Page 404

1 original -- that first bundle of documents. We have, of course, received

2 other bundles since January, and we cannot reasonably expect that we will

3 receive that material back until well into next year, in other words,

4 beyond the anticipated time of commencement of this trial.

5 I've spoken to my friend and she also has similar problems, so

6 it's an issue which affects the trial preparation of both the Prosecution

7 and the Defence. I've caused some inquiries to be made with the

8 Translation Unit, and indeed, I've personally spoken to the acting head of

9 the Translation Unit.

10 Your Honour, it seems to me that the only remedy to this situation

11 is for the Translation Unit to have made available to it more resources.

12 While it is difficult for the unit to find suitably qualified translators,

13 since such a high standard is required, I nevertheless understand that

14 individuals have been identified who could be employed. The question then

15 becomes one of responsibility. Given that the Translation Unit comes

16 under the umbrella of the Registry and therefore ultimately the President,

17 it's my respectful request, submission, that it is appropriate at this

18 stage that there be an approach made to the President to secure those

19 necessary additional resources.

20 Your Honour, it is not an overstatement to say that the

21 Translation Unit is facing a crisis, and one which will impact on the

22 timetable of all of the forthcoming trials. Some of these forthcoming

23 trials, I understand, are in hand, as far as the Translation Unit workload

24 is concerned. Others are not. I feel duty-bound to draw it to Your

25 Honour's attention because of the impact it will have on the trial

Page 405

1 timetable. Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

3 Mr. Ierace. If I may comment on something, even before I give the floor

4 to Mrs. Pilipovic, I think I can already say that I wish to congratulate

5 you on the successful meetings and discussions that you have described to

6 us. As for the translation, perhaps I should first wait and hear what

7 Mrs. Pilipovic has to say and then to ask the Registrar to send a copy of

8 this information, or of this discussion that we are conducting here, that

9 is, to send to the President the relevant part of the transcript so that

10 the President would be fully abreast of our needs.

11 Of course, I am well aware of the problem because, as you know, we

12 worked on a different case and I always have to wait for the French

13 translation, which never came. I can work in English, fortunately;

14 otherwise, one really would not be able to start any case without having

15 the French translations. And the problem indeed arises, and it is an

16 important problem, if we are going to have, for instance, a trial with a

17 Judge who only speaks French. As you know, there are two working

18 languages at the Tribunal. In this structure, the Tribunal must be

19 prepared indeed for these two languages. In the Statute, there is no

20 provision which says that the proceedings and the documents must be in

21 English, because there are two official languages, and therefore one must

22 have at one and the same time both of them.

23 I have also had experience in a different case where we always had

24 French translations because there was a Judge who only spoke French, but

25 otherwise, when not necessary, then one always resorts to the easier way

Page 406

1 out. However, it is indeed very important to have all the documents in

2 French as well.

3 Now, having said that, I will give the floor to Mrs. Pilipovic,

4 but I should first like to ask the Registrar to send to the President the

5 relevant part of the transcript so that he would be made aware of the

6 situation so that he could take the necessary -- or rather, the steps

7 which are indispensable for the further smooth conduct of our

8 proceedings.

9 Mrs. Pilipovic, we are still with the first item on the agenda and

10 this question of the translations, which also has to do with the

11 preparatory stage of the trial. Yes, Mrs. Pilipovic, you have the floor.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

13 Defence wishes to point out that we are satisfied with our cooperation

14 with the Prosecution. And what my learned friend said today is something

15 that we fully share. We quite agree with that and we agreed insofar as

16 all the matters relevant to the first item is concerned. I can say that

17 the disclosure of documents does work at time intervals which are quite

18 lengthy, but both my learned friend and I are aware of the difficulties

19 with the translation of the material, which has to be disclosed to the

20 Defence. I'm afraid that these time intervals will then necessitate also

21 a much longer time for the preparation of the Defence.

22 I can also point out that we met three times in July, that we also

23 discussed the adjudicated facts and the stipulations, and when we met

24 yesterday, we also agreed that we shall sum up the final outcome of our

25 work and submit it to the Chamber within the time period set by the

Page 407

1 Chamber.

2 Yesterday, at that meeting, I was informed by my learned friends

3 that within the next fortnight I will get the documents pursuant to Rule

4 66 having to do with Project X. I can also inform you that this month I

5 have already received a floppy with this material and another one, which

6 is pursuant to Rule 68 of the rules. I can tell you that this is quite

7 exhaustive material, and I have an associate who is now going through this

8 material.

9 Yesterday, we also agreed, as my learned friend said a few moments

10 ago, that we also have trouble with the translation of the documents.

11 Since the Defence -- all the documents that it discloses under 67, under

12 Rule 67, we disclosed it to the Prosecution. This -- it will be very,

13 very difficult to do -- translate all this material. Yes, my learned

14 friend has already spoken to me about the problem. The Defence also

15 stated its wish to have all of its documents - and these are expert

16 opinions which the Defence intends to use in the trial - the Defence would

17 like to have this material translated by the translation service, so that

18 these -- the translations would be agreeable both to the Chamber, to the

19 Prosecution and to the Defence, because we believe it would facilitate the

20 work of the Tribunal. Unless we have the translations of the translation

21 service of the Tribunal, we might run into some problems because of

22 perhaps different interpretations given to individual definitions or

23 matters.

24 Yesterday, my learned friend and I also discussed some problems

25 which were already pointed out by my learned friend. Another problem is

Page 408

1 the documentation produced to the Defence is illegible, which means that

2 it will also necessitate a certain period of time to collect all this

3 documentation.

4 So that would be, in a nutshell, all that the Defence wishes to

5 say in relation to Item 1 of the agenda, that is, taking stock of the

6 preparations for the trial. So we have a common problem, a problem we

7 share, and that is the translation of the documentation.

8 I also need to point out that the Prosecution's investigators are

9 still engaged in collecting documentation, and I believe that they will

10 disclose to the -- they will disclose to the Defence under Rule 67(C)

11 within a month.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much,

14 Ms. Pilipovic. May I congratulate you also on the cooperation and all

15 this work that you've put in.

16 Now, with regard to the problem with the translation which you

17 mentioned, we've already addressed this, and I will repeat what I have

18 already said: that is, that the President needs to be informed about

19 this. Nonetheless, I must tell you that the translation problem is a

20 problem which needs to be resolved en route, on the way. That is, the

21 translation problem may not, and should not, delay the beginning of the

22 trial, so it will have to be resolved as the trial unfolds. We already

23 know that -- we already have the experience so that we can move forward.

24 There is the other problem of presentation, the inculpatory and

25 exculpatory material; that is, we can move step by step as the trial

Page 409

1 unfolds.

2 One must bear in mind the work of the Defence is also to prepare

3 for the cross-examination of the witnesses who are called by the

4 Prosecution, but the exculpatory material will become topical after the

5 presentation of all the inculpatory material. So that although we can

6 hear these anxieties of the Defence, who have to present all their

7 exculpatory evidence, but they do not have to present all that, they do

8 not have to produce it all at the same time with the inculpatory

9 material. So that we shall begin the trial, and if there is a difficulty

10 which precludes the further proceedings, then the Chamber will take other

11 measures. But we now have to do our utmost in order to begin the trial.

12 And as the trial unfolds, we shall be resolving these problems step by

13 step. That is, we will have to keep pace with the trial.

14 But, Ms. Pilipovic, I believe you have mentioned that you have

15 only one associate to help you, which I suppose will help you to speed up

16 the preparation of your defence. I see you're on your feet. Perhaps you

17 wish to say something regarding your co-counsel. Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all I want to say is

19 that following your suggestion made at the Status Conference on the 13th

20 of June, I was in contact with the Registry, and unfortunately I did not

21 meet with understanding; that is, I could not -- they did not allow me to

22 take an associate who would help me here to make the work more efficient

23 and help me prepare for the trial better, so at times I have to work ten

24 hours a day. My associate helps me with the documentation which I am

25 receiving day in and day out. And this is a problem which you also

Page 410

1 pointed out at the previous Status Conference, that is, as of the day of

2 the disclosure of the final batch of documents, the Defence will need at

3 least six months to prepare for its case, and this could present a problem

4 once the trial starts.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We have absolutely no

6 doubts regarding your capacity to work, and I have to remind the Registry

7 -- if I may say, I'm taking the liberty to say that the reforms which the

8 Tribunal envisages with ad litem judges will be logical only if we

9 expedite the pre-trial proceedings. That is, if we cannot expedite the

10 pre-trial, then it will make no sense to have ad litem judges. What does

11 make sense is to have a complete Defence team as of Day 1 so as to

12 expedite the whole pre-trial proceedings as quickly as possible, so as to

13 prepare the cases, to have them ready for ad litem judges. Otherwise,

14 they will make no sense. Now, this is something the Registry would bear

15 in mind, and this particularly bears on major cases such as this one. So

16 this is one thing which I believe the Registry should have in mind.

17 And I do hope that shortly you will have a co-counsel, because

18 before the opening of the trial you will need to have a co-counsel. And

19 after all, Ms. Pilipovic, you will also need -- it is also important for

20 you to have the trial start as soon as possible, so it is important for

21 you to get a co-counsel.

22 But I should also like to remind both parties -- you mentioned the

23 reports of expert witnesses. There was a practice adopted in a case here,

24 and it has proven quite efficient, in my view.

25 As you know, on the Rule 94 bis, I think envisages in hypothesis

Page 411

1 if a party does not accept the report of an expert witness, the solution

2 is then: call their witness to testify. But in another case, we put this

3 into practice: When one party did not accept the testimony of an expert

4 witness, that is, the party who did not do that could respond in writing

5 by the report of another expert witness, and therefore there was no more

6 need to call the witness to testify in person.

7 As you know, I mean, expert witnesses are usually very busy

8 people, and it is sometimes very difficult for them to manage at all. But

9 if such a problem arises, then I suppose we can be satisfied with the

10 counter-report of another witness, and it will then be up to the Trial

11 Chamber to take both expert reports. But it is one possibility to do

12 that. So if one party does not accept the statement of an expert witness,

13 it may submit the report of its expert witness and it may save time. We

14 can show the time when the hearing starts, because, you know, what is a

15 problem here, of course, is the duration of individual trials. However,

16 one cannot really anticipate the rapidity, the efficiency, of the trial.

17 We need to maintain a balance. And if we can maintain a balance, then it

18 is good for everybody, for all the parties involved. So this is one

19 possible solution which also needs to be borne in mind.

20 Right. I believe we have now taken stock of the situation as it

21 is as of this day. Now it is up to us to establish the timetable of our

22 work so that we can really envisage what lies ahead, what has to be done,

23 what other preparations have to be done so that the trial can begin.

24 So as the timetable, I should like to suggest - and that is the

25 second item of our agenda - and as any timetable, of course, it is merely

Page 412

1 a provisional timetable. As I have already had occasion to tell you in

2 several instances, I proposed that we hold the pre-trial proceedings in

3 such a way so as to go to trial as soon as possible, allowing the parties

4 to have reasonable time to prepare themselves. As you know, there are

5 many vicissitudes in this regard, especially with the replacement of

6 Defence counsel. But notwithstanding these difficulties, we should be

7 trial-ready at the end of November or the beginning of December at the

8 latest, or, to be more exact, the 26th of November would be a possible

9 date, or the 3rd of December.

10 So with this prospect in mind, we are going to propose a calendar

11 working backwards, and that calendar will be as follows. My proposals are

12 as follows, working backwards from those dates: We're going to have

13 discussion amongst the parties following on from your own discussions,

14 that is, up to the 18th. From the 7th, which is today, to the 18th, you

15 will be able to continue your exchanges, your meetings. You can bring up

16 any difficulties that you come across in the pre-trial stage.

17 On the 18th of September, then, we're going to have a meeting of

18 the two parties with the legal officer of the Chamber to see what the

19 balance is, the intermediate balance, how far we have advanced in our

20 discussions and preparations with respect to the agreements or as to see

21 how far we agree on the level of disagreement, if I can put it that way.

22 So on the 24th of September, therefore, we are going to have a

23 Status Conference, and for that Status Conference the Prosecutor will be

24 ready to present at least three things: first of all, a provisional list

25 of his witnesses, with an estimate for the duration of the

Page 413

1 examination-in-chief for each of the witnesses; how long the examination

2 for each witness will last; protective measures that they wish to have for

3 that stage.

4 And the second point: a table presenting the facts upon which

5 each of the witnesses is going to testify and the relationships to the

6 different crimes that the accused has been charged with in the

7 indictment.

8 The third point: a provisional list of the evidence which they

9 wish to produce, the pieces of evidence which the Prosecution wishes to

10 produce, pieces of evidence or exhibits.

11 From the 24th of September, to go back to the calendar, to the 1st

12 of October, the parties will finalise their discussions, if they have

13 any. If they have any outstanding points, they will address those in

14 order to complete this pre-trial phase.

15 On the 1st of October, there will be a meeting with the Legal

16 Officers of the Chamber for a final stage before the Prosecution brief

17 goes ahead.

18 On the 10th of October -- the 10th of October is the date on which

19 or by which the Prosecutor will present the final brief in the pre-trial

20 stage, including the finalised list of witnesses and exhibits which the

21 Prosecution will be presenting and calling when it brings its case to

22 trial.

23 The 31st of October is the next date. That is the date for the

24 Defence; that is to say, by which the Defence will be filing its final

25 brief in the pre-trial stage.

Page 414

1 The 12th of November is our next date, when we shall hold the

2 Pre-Trial Conference.

3 There, then, is the calendar and the dates that we are proposing,

4 and I think that it is a realistic calendar, and if I may say so, it is --

5 it will help us discipline our work to be trial-ready on the 26th of

6 November or to open trial on the 3rd of December.

7 Now, do you have any comments to make? Mr. Ierace?

8 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I appreciate the need for a tight

9 timetable in order to meet the anticipated date of the commencement of the

10 trial. The timetable which Your Honour has proposed does cause some

11 difficulties to the Prosecution, because there have been plans made - in

12 particular in relation to the next two weeks - that will not easily

13 facilitate that timetable. I had planned on being in Sarajevo from this

14 Sunday for a period of some ten days. Needless to say, Your Honour's

15 proposed timetable takes precedence.

16 Your Honour, it may be that some steps could be taken by me and

17 others in the trial team to accommodate the timetable. I would be

18 grateful for a short adjournment so that I could discuss it with the other

19 members of my trial team. I would then be in a much better position to

20 advise Your Honour on the proposal.

21 I should indicate that the purpose, the primary purpose, for my

22 visit to Sarajevo on this occasion is to oversee the filming of the video,

23 which will take place over the next three weeks, and I think it's

24 important that I'm there for that first period, that is, the first week.

25 That cannot be easily changed because of the number of individuals who are

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1 involved and the cooperation with the government authorities in Sarajevo.

2 Would Your Honour be able to grant me a short adjournment?

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Ierace, perhaps I could make

4 a counterproposal, and we could finish with the Status Conference first,

5 then have a break, pause, because other matters might crop up which might

6 be considered after the pause. So let's get -- let's finish the Status

7 Conference, make a pause and come back, and then the parties could bring

8 up other matters which might have cropped up in the course of the break.

9 But let me tell you something that might be useful for you. We are quite

10 ready to work within the team spirit, so if you personally are not there,

11 another member of your team can be there and, according to your

12 guidelines, proceed.

13 Madam Pilipovic, may we have your comments with respect to the

14 calendar? Have you got a better calendar to put forward respecting the

15 dates of the trial?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me say at the

17 outset that this tempo and the dates proposed by yourself for the moment

18 cannot be acceptable to the Defence. The first reason for that, if I look

19 at the next date in September, is that my colleague and myself discussed

20 -- had a meeting yesterday, and we said that we would be in Sarajevo on

21 the same -- at the same time, because the Defence too plans to be in

22 Sarajevo at the same time, and we agreed to meet perhaps in Sarajevo, if

23 the need arises for that. So all the dates that have been put forward for

24 this ensuing period would mean that they would take up a lot of Defence

25 time.

Page 417

1 Let me stress once again that I am working alone for the moment.

2 I am working with the witnesses regardless, and the investigators. I'm

3 studying all the material and documents, and let me stress in particular

4 that a substantial and vital portion of the documents which the

5 Prosecution intends to disclose to the Defence, which is a list of 900

6 pages the Defence is going to receive, as I have been informed by my

7 learned colleagues, in a month's time. So that for the present, the

8 proposal made by my learned colleague from the Prosecution would be a good

9 one, to take a break so that we could have a meeting and try to see which

10 dates are acceptable of the ones that have been proposed, so as to ensure

11 continuity and to continue to work as we have been doing in the past.

12 Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. As we have proposed,

14 let us get through the Status Conference, take a break, during which you

15 will be able to have an exchange of views on the calendar, and once you

16 have a common denominator, a common reason for going to Sarajevo.

17 Now, with respect to the third item on our agenda, miscellaneous,

18 other matters which the parties wish to raise and which have not been

19 raised so far, Mr. Ierace, do you have any miscellaneous items?

20 MR. IERACE: I do not, Your Honour, but I take the opportunity to

21 make a minor correction to what my friend said. It wasn't 900 pages

22 within a month that I anticipated we would provide, but rather 900

23 documents within two weeks. Thank you.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That's even more. Very well.

25 Thank you anyway.

Page 418

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you to my learned

2 colleague.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Pilipovic, any other

4 matters which you wish to raise during this Status Conference which have

5 not been included on the agenda in the previous points?

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to

7 inform Your Honour with the problems the Defence is facing with respect to

8 working hours that have been assigned to my experts. I have informed my

9 learned colleagues of the Prosecution of this problem. The experts which

10 the Defence has engaged have been allotted 100 working hours. I know that

11 that does not fall within the realm of your own responsibilities, Your

12 Honour, but I merely wish to stress this point, and this is yet one more

13 reason which could bring into question the preparation of the Defence

14 case. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. I think that

16 this is a problem which the Registry must address. So may we have full

17 attention paid to that problem?

18 Now, Mr. Ierace and Ms. Melinda, bearing in mind the opening date

19 of the trial - that is to say, the 26th of November or the 3rd of

20 December - is the Registry in a position to assign a team of workers for

21 Madam Pilipovic? And if so, when?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, I'd have to consult with OLAD in

23 relation to that.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. At any rate, I know that,

25 Ms. Melinda, you will bear that in mind and take care of the matter. I

Page 419

1 have full confidence and trust in you to regulate this issue as soon as

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3 I would now like to move into private -- into closed session --

4 no, private session. May we move into private session, please? Thank

5 you.

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6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are back in open session.

8 The time has come to take a break. How much time would you need,

9 Mr. Ierace and Madam Pilipovic? What do you think; half an hour,

10 three-quarters of an hour? Would that be sufficient?

11 MR. IERACE: I would require three-quarters of an hour, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is three-quarters of an hour

14 sufficient time for you, Madam Pilipovic?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that time would

16 be sufficient.

17 Let me just mention that as of 2.00 p.m., I have a visit in the

18 Detention Unit. I have to go to the Detention Unit at two o'clock, so I

19 hope we'll be able to reach an agreement by that time. I'm just bringing

20 that up because afterwards we have problems -- if we don't arrive on time

21 for our visit, visitation rights and times to the Detention Centre, we

22 have problems later on. So I will have to finish by that time, 2.00 p.m.

23 Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We are going to

25 grant you the necessary time. And if you finish earlier, you can contact

Page 424

1 me in my office once you are ready. This can be before the 45 expires.

2 In the meantime, if you need any legal aid from the legal officers of the

3 Court, I think that they are at your disposal.

4 Mr. Olivier Fourmy, do you confirm that you are at their

5 disposal?

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, always, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I will be

8 in my offices, in my chambers. So once you are ready, please let me know,

9 and we adjourn.

10 --- Break taken at 11.59 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. I am at your disposal

13 and ready to hear your suggestions. Yes, Mr. Ierace?

14 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, the suggestion which I advance is put to

15 you on behalf of both the Prosecution and the Defence. We propose that

16 the timetable in respect of all of the dates, except for the trial

17 commencement date, be advanced by a period of two weeks. The trial

18 commencement date would be the 10th of December instead of one of the --

19 either of the two dates that Your Honour proposed, that is the 3rd of

20 December or the 26th of November.

21 We further propose that there be some changes to the events which

22 are to occur on the particular dates. Essentially, rather than the

23 Prosecution provide provisional lists of witnesses and exhibits and a

24 table presenting the facts at the time of the Status Conference, instead

25 of that, the Prosecution would provide a provisional list of witnesses and

Page 425

1 exhibits which relate to the evidentiary areas of sniping and shelling of

2 civilians and overview witnesses on a particular date.

3 And finally, Your Honour, it's proposed that there be the

4 opportunity for either side to approach the legal officer, to approach

5 Mr. Fourmy, if either side encounters difficulties, that is obviously

6 significant and severe difficulties, in complying with the timetable.

7 Your Honour, I could give you the relevant dates which apply if

8 the timetable was advanced by a period of two weeks. The 18th of

9 September would become the 2nd of October. That would be the date when

10 the parties would meet with Mr. Fourmy.

11 The Status Conference would occur on the 8th of October, and

12 instead of the provision by the Prosecution of those provisional lists,

13 the Prosecution would provide the provisional lists, sniping, shelling and

14 overview witnesses, at the time of the meeting with Olivier Fourmy on the

15 2nd of October.

16 The parties would finalise their discussions by the 15th of

17 October and would meet with Mr. Fourmy on that date.

18 The final brief, including the finalised list of witnesses, would

19 occur two weeks plus one day after the proposed date, which would be the

20 25th of October, the reason for the additional day being that the 24th is

21 a UN public holiday.

22 The Defence would file its final brief by the 14th of November,

23 and the Pre-Trial Conference would then occur on the 26th of November, and

24 then the trial date would be the 10th of December, commencement date.

25 That completes the proposal, Your Honour.

Page 426

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mrs. Pilipovic, do you go along

2 with this proposal?

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence wishes to

4 point out once again that it has not yet received all the material from

5 the Prosecution, that another 900 documents have been announced within the

6 next month, that within a fortnight I have also been told that I would be

7 getting material for Project X, and I may tell you, Your Honour, that I

8 just received some audio tapes, 37 of them. That is what I received today

9 from the Prosecution. So that I really wonder if the Defence will be able

10 to comply with the dates suggested by my learned friend. I'm not sure we

11 shall be able to comply with them.

12 You have pointed out that those were provisional dates and that on

13 the 2nd of October we should meet with Mr. Fourmy. The Defence believes

14 that it would be only as late as that meeting, that is to 2nd of October,

15 that we could say if all these dates are agreeable to us.

16 I may add once again that I'd like Mr. Galic's trial to be a fair

17 trial. I will reiterate that we are quite aware of the time that

18 Mr. Galic has spent in detention, and we, of course, fully realise that

19 the trial should begin as soon as possible, and let me say once again that

20 we shall do our best to comply, to go by these dates, but I only say only

21 after I see all this material that should come to me within the next

22 month, only then, that is only on the 2nd of October when we meet with

23 Mr. Fourmy, shall I be able to say whether I can really go by -- abide by

24 these dates.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mrs. Pilipovic. I

Page 427

1 see only one problem here, and that is that we need to somehow fit in both

2 proposals so that we have the Pre-Trial Conference as soon as possible -

3 that is, in early December - because as you know, the Chamber's term of

4 office expires on the 16th. And the best that we can do possibly - and I

5 don't have my agenda here - but perhaps not the 14th but the 13th of

6 November. Perhaps one simply has to somehow adjust the days for the final

7 brief of the Prosecution and the Defence brief. We have to see about

8 that.

9 And perhaps, as Mrs. Pilipovic is suggesting, perhaps we could

10 leave it for your consideration, all these dates. That is, one can

11 perhaps move the dates which have to do, of course, with the presence by

12 the Prosecution and Defence in Sarajevo. So perhaps the 2nd of October,

13 which is the meeting to be with the legal officer, Mrs. Pilipovic

14 suggests, perhaps we could slightly change other days, bearing in mind

15 that the 13th of November would have to be the date set for the Pre-Trial

16 Conference since, as I have told you, on the 16th of November the term of

17 office of this Chamber expires. I believe both parties should know what

18 are the tasks ahead of them, which are the problems that need to be

19 resolved. The parties also know which are the limitations of this

20 Chamber's work and that the Chamber can call the Pre-Trial Conference on

21 the 13th November at the latest.

22 As for the date for the beginning of the trial, I believe that we

23 could show some flexibility in that, but again not going beyond the

24 envisaged date too much, because as you see, if we propose that the trial

25 starts around the 15th of December, for instance, then it will be right on

Page 428

1 the eve of the Christmas holiday. So I think that the best thing would be

2 to leave the 2nd October as the set date for the meeting with the legal

3 officer of the Chamber, and then we shall have to adjust the timetable to

4 have the Pre-Trial Conference on the 13th of November. The date of the

5 beginning of the trial will then be set, bearing in mind all the business

6 of the Tribunal. But at the same time, we must realise that it has to

7 begin at some sensible time, bearing in mind the Christmas holidays. This

8 is what I believe we can do today.

9 So with this, I believe we can close this matter of the timetable,

10 bearing in mind these parameters which I have mentioned. But at the same

11 time, one must be well aware of the fact that there are already three

12 fixed days: the 2nd of October for the meeting with the legal officer of

13 the Chamber; the 13th of November for the pre-trial brief; and the

14 beginning of December as the beginning of the trial, in view of the

15 forthcoming holidays. All the other dates, that is, the Status Conference

16 and the pre-trial briefs, these dates will be determined depending on

17 these other dates and the deadlines that we must bear in mind. This is

18 what I think we can give you as some guidelines for your work.

19 Yes, Mr. Ierace. Will it be possible to adjust to accommodate

20 these dates?

21 MR. IERACE: I believe so, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 And, Mrs. Pilipovic, with all the reservations, do you think you

24 will be able to manage those dates?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will do my best to

Page 429

1 adjust myself, and I accept to present my final position at the meeting

2 with Mr. Fourmy on the 2nd of October.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very

4 much. And before we adjourn, I should like to remind you of something

5 practical which you may have already talked about.

6 You will remember that we've been talking about this; that is, I

7 would like the Prosecutor to make a certain distinction when organising

8 his witness lists, that is, between different categories of witnesses, all

9 the framework witnesses that could be done by depositions, as the Tribunal

10 already has jurisprudence with the depositions. As you know, we already

11 have acquired some experience. And if we take 92 bis, you know that this

12 instrument has already been used, and you have to consider whether

13 witnesses can be heard in some other way except by the oral testimony in

14 court.

15 Then I've already mentioned expert witnesses. I think whenever

16 possible, the party which does not accept the report, the statement of an

17 expert witness, could respond with a written statement of a counter-expert

18 witness. I believe that there has also been the judicial notice. That is

19 something that is also possible at all times.

20 I will leave to the Defence to consider and decide if General

21 Galic is also going to testify, to take the stand and testify in his

22 defence, or whether he will, under Rule 84 bis -- that is, whether he will

23 be making a statement. So this has to be thought about.

24 I should also like the parties to give some thought to the

25 protective measures for their witnesses, to use whatever is at their

Page 430

1 disposal, to strike a sensible balance between those testifying under

2 protection measures and the public nature of the hearings; that is

3 pseudonyms, facial distortion, voice distortion, always allowed to protect

4 a witness whilst allowing the public to hear the testimony. So this is a

5 practical aspect, and as the Pre-Trial Judge, I wish to draw your

6 attention to that possibility because I think it is important to have a

7 proper balance between the protection of witnesses and at the same time

8 the public -- the need for the public to follow the hearings, which means

9 that we should only by way of extreme exception consider closed hearings

10 as protective measures, because, as you know, in those cases, the public

11 has absolutely no possibility to follow the hearings. So if we use facial

12 distortion and voice distortion and pseudonyms as protective measures,

13 then the public can nevertheless hear and follow the hearings. So I leave

14 it with you to think about it.

15 So these are some small things which I wish to recommend to you

16 and to ask you to consider them.

17 But now I turn to you, General Galic. Will you stand up, please?

18 And if one of the security guards could put on the microphone, please?

19 Very good.

20 [The accused stands up]

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] General Galic, you now have the

22 opportunity to tell us, if you wish to do so, how are the conditions of

23 your detention and do you have any health problems? Is there anything

24 that you wish to tell us?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me say good

Page 431

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Page 432

1 afternoon and thank you for asking me that question, and I should also

2 like to thank for all the care which is given us in detention. Well, let

3 me tell you I'm also getting ready for the trial. I am still receiving

4 some medical treatment for the injuries I suffered at the time of arrest.

5 My health is more or less all right, although I do have some trouble with

6 my right leg. It has improved, but now there was a relapse and now I

7 can't walk for more than 15 minutes, but I hope that with doctor's help, I

8 hope this will be remedied and I will be able and I'll be quite fit at the

9 time of the beginning of the trial.

10 Secondly is, of course, the time element. I've been here for

11 almost two years. Secondly, my group has been moved to another area in

12 the detention unit, so putting those premises in order so as to have as

13 much as possible a normal life, and I hope that the administration of the

14 detention unit will help us to put it all right. Of course, a cell is a

15 cell is a cell, but nevertheless one can put it right so that I think we

16 can -- we shall be allowed to create the proper human conditions for work

17 and life, and thank you very much. I have nothing else to add.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You may be

19 seated, General Galic.

20 [The accused sits down]

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We hope that your injury will

22 heal and that your health will improve, and I have no doubt that the

23 Registry and the detention administration will do whatever they can to

24 provide all the other conditions.

25 Very well. Thank you very much for your attention. Thank you to

Page 433

1 both parties. Thank you, both parties, for the cooperation and for all

2 the work that you have done together. I'd also hope that you will invest

3 a final effort to prepare this case and provide all the conditions so that

4 we can really bring to an end the pre-trial proceedings and provide all

5 the necessary conditions for the beginning of the trial.

6 This is a goal to which we all aspire. So have a nice day, have a

7 nice weekend and successful work.

8 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at

9 1.15 p.m.

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