1 Wednesday, 5 December 2001
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Good afternoon, General Galic, everyone
9 in this courtroom. Before we continue with the cross-examination of the
10 witness Kupusovic, I'd like to give you the decision on the objection made
11 by the Prosecution yesterday on the exhibit, a few lines, two lines from a
12 book of Stjepan Siber, the lines indicating that sniper rifles would have
13 been distributed. But before giving the decision, I would just like to
14 make a few short remarks on the law of evidence to be practised in this
16 As we all know, this is a mixed Court to the extent that not
17 common-law traditions nor civil law traditions will apply. And I may
18 bring into your mind that one of the main features of the common-law
19 tradition as far as the law of evidence is concerned is that they mainly
20 deal with rules of presentation of evidence, while in the civil law
21 tradition, the emphasis is on the evaluation of the evidential material
22 that is available to the Court. And if we look at the rationale behind
23 the rules of evidence, and perhaps a bit more in the common-law tradition
24 as it is in the civil law tradition, we will see that one of the rationale
25 is that the mistrust of juries, where there might be some fear that a jury
1 might not be able to properly evaluate some kind of evidence that is
2 presented to it. You will understand that this fear is a bit less in this
3 Court since there is no jury, and the Court thinks that, like in most
4 civil law traditions, as professional Judges, we will be able to evaluate
5 properly the evidence that is presented before us.
6 The second rationale is the fact finding which, of course, is of
7 major importance, and a third, and not the least important for this
8 Court - of course, I'm not going through all the rationales, but those
9 that seem to be of importance at this moment - is to control the scope and
10 the duration of the trials. That's a very pragmatic rationale, but it is
11 still important to this Court.
12 Bearing this in mind, we have considered what to do with
13 the two lines all of the book of Stjepan Siber. We then considered Rule
14 89, paragraph (c), which says the Chamber may admit any relevant evidence
15 which it deems to have probative value.
16 In view of the testimony of the witness Kupusovic, the Chamber
17 thinks that the two lines of the book contain no relevant evidence and
18 that these two lines have no probative value. In order to avoid any
19 misunderstanding, I clarify this position. If the Defence would in a
20 later stage want to establish that sniper rifles have been distributed, of
21 course they can do -- they can adduce whatever kind of evidence in order
22 to support that idea. But at this moment, in view of this testimony, this
23 Court thinks that it would be inadmissible evidence to accept these lines
24 of the book of Mr. Stjepan Siber. I told you that the control of the
25 scope and the duration of trials is of importance to this Court as well,
1 and we want to avoid that every newspaper article, every book that a
2 witness has not read is tendered into evidence because we will end up with
3 a lot of paper, which might not serve the Court in coming to conclusions.
4 The Defence has argued that the witness could not just deny what
5 was in the book. This is not a reason to admit this book in evidence,
6 because whether it's true or not, what is in the book, or whether the
7 witness is telling the truth or not when he says, "I didn't know anything
8 about what is written in this book," this is not a way of establishing
9 what is the truth in that respect. So that would be no reason to admit
10 these lines of the book into evidence.
11 So that's the decision of this Chamber on this objection.
12 Then I'd like the witness to be brought into the Court.
13 Mr. Usher, could you please bring the witness in.
14 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President, whilst the witness is being
15 brought in, might I raise a procedural matter indirectly arising from your
16 ruling, and it is this: Not having appeared in a trial here before, I'm
17 uncertain as to whether the Trial Chamber has a system whereby items shown
18 to a witness but not tendered at that stage can be marked for
19 identification so there can be no doubt at a later stage whether it is
20 tendered, that it is the same item that was shown to an earlier witness.
21 I would be grateful for your clarification on that, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Although it is not my first trial, having a certain
23 history in this Court, I'd rather discuss this with my colleagues first
24 before I give you a final answer to that question. Thank you.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 WITNESS: TARIK KUPUSOVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Kupusovic. May I remind you --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
5 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind I that you are still bound by the solemn
6 declaration you made the day before yesterday, and I will give an
7 opportunity now to Ms. Pilipovic to continue cross-examination.
8 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]
9 Q. Good afternoon, witness.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. Yesterday, we were discussing the shortage of electricity, water,
12 and gas in Sarajevo while you were a member of the War Presidency. Tell
13 me, please, do you have any knowledge to the effect that the main
14 transformer station to the electricity was in Hadzici?
15 A. There were 11 transformer stations in Sarajevo, so in addition to
16 the one in Hadzici, there were another 10 transformer stations.
17 Q. Was that transformer station connected to the water source at
18 Ilidza, at Bacevo?
19 A. The transformer station in Blazuj was linked to that source of
20 water in Ilidza.
21 Q. The area where the transformer station in Blazuj was, who
22 controlled the area?
23 A. The army of Karadzic's Serbs.
24 Q. Do you know that that transformer station during operations by the
25 BH army and the army of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was damaged?
1 A. I do not have any direct knowledge, only from the stories in town
2 that there may have been damages.
3 Q. In view of that, if it was damaged, does that mean that the Bacevo
4 water source was not operational?
5 A. It depends, of course, to what extent it was damaged because it is
6 a large transformer station and it applies not only Bacevo but that part
7 of the town of Sarajevo as well.
8 Q. While you were active in the War Presidency, you said that you
9 went to attend negotiations when there was a shortage of water and
10 electricity. Who was present and were any of the UN observers present?
11 A. As a member of the Presidency of the city, I participated several
12 times in those negotiations which were conducted by representatives of the
13 UN as independent observers.
14 Q. Did you ever go to visit the scene where these things were
15 actually happening?
16 A. No, members of the commission did not visit the spot. This was
17 not allowed by the negotiators on the opposite side, but they did go --
18 workers went there who could, together with the workers of the other side,
19 under UN supervision, repair whatever damage had occurred.
20 Q. While you were active, did you know what was happening and whether
21 there was a shortage of electricity and water in the part of the town that
22 was under the control of the army of the Bosnian Serbs?
23 A. It would happen that part of town at Grbavica and the rest of the
24 city to be left without electricity, but frequently also Vrace and
25 Grbavica had electricity whereas the main part of town under the control
1 of the legal authorities in Sarajevo had no electricity.
2 Q. How would you deal with that situation then?
3 A. Again, there would be negotiations at the airport on the
4 conditions under which electricity would be allowed to reach the city.
5 Q. When you were performing those duties prior to becoming town
6 mayor, what other duties did you have, or rather all of you who were
7 active in that War Presidency? I am referring to questions of food,
8 clothing, and accommodation of both civilians and the military.
9 A. The Presidency of the city had responsibilities that were parallel
10 to those of the Municipal Assembly, which meant the highest legislative
11 body in the city of Sarajevo. Therefore, in addition to questions of
12 water and electricity, we were also involved with the other ten or so
13 public services that are normally operating in town, transportation,
14 garbage disposal, burials, marketplaces, and so on. We had a commission
15 for the distribution of humanitarian aid which regularly reported to us,
16 and it was directly linked to representatives of the UNHRC, who took care
17 of the delivery and distribution of humanitarian aid by district, whereas
18 our responsibilities were limited to the local level, that is distribution
19 among families.
20 Q. So you also concerned yourself with the food, accommodation and
21 clothing of the army?
22 A. No, as the city Presidency, we had nothing to do with the army.
23 Q. Who took care of that?
24 A. The Ministry of Defence and the army command.
25 Q. Will you tell me, please, in the course of your activities, did
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 you have any knowledge that within the territory of the city of Sarajevo
2 there were prisons?
3 A. In the territory of the city of Sarajevo before the war, during
4 the war, and even today, there is the so-called central penitentiary,
5 which is situated next to the main court. And as far as I know, it was
6 operating throughout the war.
7 Q. Do you know that there was a prison in the Viktor Bubanj
9 A. I have no knowledge of that.
10 Q. Do you know that at Dobrinja in the coffee bar Sunce, which used
11 to be a coffee bar, was also a prison?
12 A. I know nothing about that.
13 Q. Did you have information that in the territory of Sarajevo, there
14 were 46 prisons and these were prisons for Serbs?
15 A. There were certainly no prisons for Serbs, but Pale television
16 frequently spoke about a prison at Zetra, that is the Olympic sports
17 hall, that I know for certain did not exist at all because my working
18 place was right close to Zetra, and Zetra was in fact empty. And later it
19 was a warehouse for UNHCR humanitarian aid.
20 Q. Did you go to that sports hall?
21 A. I went there a couple of times, accompanied by representatives of
22 the UNHCR when they wanted to show us what aid had arrived. And this is
23 two levels below the sports hall.
24 Q. When was this? Was this when you were a member of the war
25 Presidency or when you became town mayor?
1 A. It was in the course of 1993, while I was a member of the town
3 Q. You told us that you moved around on a daily basis, that you went
4 to work. When you moved around town, did you ever attend or see a victim
5 of a sniper?
6 A. No, I didn't, and I didn't move around town every day, as that was
7 impossible. Frequently, the shelling and sniping was of such intensity
8 that we didn't venture out of the basements. And quite frequently, 10 or
9 20 metres behind me or in front of me, I would see casualties of the
10 shooting, that is of sniping or of a shell. And I myself was twice in
11 great danger because a shell exploded on the balcony just above my head,
12 but the shrapnel entered the city. Lucky for me, but unfortunately for
13 the inhabitants because they were killed.
14 Q. Did you do anything about it? Did you inform anyone?
15 A. The first thing we did was to flee for shelter. And in this
16 particular case that I mentioned, it happened in June 1992. And the next
17 day or the day after, when things calmed down, then we tried to intervene
18 with the UN forces in Sarajevo to bring their influence to bear on the
19 other side to cease shelling of civilians because this is something they
20 also witnessed.
21 Q. You told us that they also witnessed this. How do you know that?
22 A. They were accommodated in Skenderija when the Marsal Tito barracks
23 were evacuated there. So in several locations in town, they had their
24 centres, and they often moved around town in APCs.
25 Q. Do you know what the procedure was when someone was wounded in the
1 street? Who took care of them and where were those people driven or
3 A. Most frequently, whoever arrived first in a car would pick up the
4 casualty and drive him or her to the closest clinic or hospital. And
5 normally, it was the emergency service. But often one couldn't wait for
6 the emergency service to arrive. But anyone who would come by in a car or
7 in some other way would carry or transport the wounded person to the
8 nearest clinic.
9 Q. Do you know that on the highest buildings in the centre of
10 Sarajevo, such as the building of the executive council or government, the
11 Oslobodjenje building and other high rises, that there were snipers on
12 those buildings?
13 A. I do have knowledge that there were anti-sniper teams of UN forces
14 on those buildings which we frequently called on, and then those
15 anti-sniping teams were formed to respond to sniping from Vrace. And
16 indeed, for a time they were positioned on the highest buildings of the
17 government, Energoinvest, and the Unis skyscrapers. But as they, too,
18 were killed by snipers, the French UNPROFOR command later withdrew them.
19 So these were not sniper -- snipers belonging to the army or the police of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but rather anti-sniping teams belonging to the UN
21 forces, which were supposed to repel the snipers from the lines of the
22 siege of the city.
23 Q. How do you know that?
24 A. It was common knowledge in Sarajevo, actually. I didn't actually
25 see those soldiers because they were positioned behind barriers, shelters,
1 on those top floors. But there were conversations that I did not
2 participate in directly because that was done by the town mayor at the
3 time, together with the commander of the UN forces in Sarajevo.
4 Q. Did you have meetings with the town mayor and did you brief him on
5 behalf of your War Presidency about events in Sarajevo?
6 A. Meetings of the city Presidency were held as a rule once a week,
7 sometimes more frequently. And at times when -- if on the day of the
8 meeting there was heavy shelling, then the following day, the meeting was
9 held. These meetings were chaired by the town mayor, Kresin Jakovic
10 [phoen], and we had a prepared agenda, and all topical matters that had
11 occurred a day or two before or were expected to occur in the next few
12 days were reviewed at those meetings.
13 Q. You say that AS, anti-snipers, UN observers were set up. When was
14 that? What year, what month?
15 A. As far as I can remember, it was in the autumn of 1993, and this
16 went on for several months.
17 Q. Do you happen to know that in a part of Sarajevo -- when I say a
18 part of Sarajevo, I mean the urban part of town. Do you know whether any
19 special sniper units existed under the control of the BH army?
20 A. I don't know of any such units.
21 Q. With respect to the civilian casualties, do you consider that
22 Sarajevo as a united town, not only the urban part but the whole of the
23 city of Sarajevo, that civilians fell as casualties in the whole of the
25 A. Well, the civilians were casualties all over the city, but you
1 cannot compare the civilian casualties in the surrounding parts of the
2 town under the control of Karadzic's Serbs, the army of Karadzic's Serbs,
3 and the civilians in the town of Sarajevo itself.
4 Q. When you say that, do you mean that the Grbavica neighbourhood,
5 that there were less casualties there than in the part of Sarajevo that
6 borders on the Grbavica district, or was it the same on both sides?
7 A. Well, I don't know how many civilians were killed at Grbavica, but
8 probably they were killed and wounded, but they were all -- also fell as
9 casualties because they had no water and electricity and so on. Their
10 life was constantly threatened due to the effects of war and the suffering
11 war brings with it.
12 Q. What about the citizens of Sarajevo living at Grbavica, did they
13 fall casualty from shelling and sniping during the fighting?
14 A. I said I don't know how many fell as casualties, but I say they
15 could have been killed because, quite simply, the demarcation line was the
16 Mijetska River, so in this part of town where I moved around in, it was
17 obvious with the skyrises and with all the buildings on that side, that
18 people had evacuated them. It was not possible to live there because the
19 soldiers belonging to the army of Republica Sprska had taken them over.
20 And on the other side in similar buildings, in similar highrises, the
21 situation was similar.
22 Q. Are you referring to Grbavica when you say highrises?
23 A. No, I'm thinking of the building like the BH assembly building,
24 the electricity board on the other side of the Mijetska River which was
25 controlled by the BH army.
1 Q. What about the situation in Nedzarici, what was that like?
2 A. Nedzarici is, in fact, a village which became an urban part of
3 town as the town expanded. And on the 2nd of May, when the war began in
4 Sarajevo and the fighting, it became a stronghold, a bunker, for sniping
5 and shelling of the road leading from the Oslobodjenje building towards
6 Dobrinja and that settlement is on the right-hand side of that road.
7 The civilians who were of non-Serb ethnicity were taken away in an
8 unknown direction or some of them were transferred to town. And they said
9 that they had been forced to flee there by the extremist Serbs. Now, what
10 happened to the civilians living in Nedzarici, I really want say. I don't
11 know. I mean the Serb civilians, I'm referring to.
12 Q. Did you have occasion to visit that particular settlement, and if
13 so, when?
14 A. Several months after the war.
15 Q. And what was the impression you gained?
16 A. There was a lot of damaged and destroyed houses.
17 Q. Will you agree with me when I say that in that settlement, the
18 houses are mostly two-storey buildings?
19 A. Yes, one floor or two floors, family-type dwellings.
20 Q. Is the district surrounded by high buildings of Vojnicko Polje,
21 and Ali Pasino Polje?
22 A. On one side of the district, there are the high buildings of
23 Vojnicko Polje, yes. And they are in the same state they were in during
24 the war, that is to say, snipers and grenades hit the buildings so they
25 have these marks on them from the Nedzarici area, so those skyrises were
1 left first, were evacuated first on the 2nd of May when the war and the
2 fighting started. On the other side, there is the JNA barracks in
3 Nedzarici which became barracks of the army of Republika Srpska, and on
4 the third side is the airport, the beginning of the runway, in fact.
5 On the eastern side lies the Oslobodjenje newspaper building, and
6 it was targeted from Nedzarici and has been largely destroyed and still
7 stands like that. It hasn't been restored or rebuilt yet. And that is
8 200 metres away from the Nedzarici settlement.
9 Q. Is Ali Pasino Polje and Nedzarici separated by a road? Does a
10 road separate the two?
11 A. On the other side we had the Vojnicko Polje settlement and the
12 health centre in Nedzarici. And in Vojnicko Polje, actually, which was
13 built when Vojnicko Polje was built and that was completely destroyed with
14 the first shootings from Nedzarici.
15 Q. Do you happen to know that during the war in that part of town
16 were the demarcation lines, the separation lines, and that these ran
17 for 50 metres?
18 A. Well, I said that the demarcation line was for all practical
19 purposes that road because from Ali Pasino Polje on the other side, the
20 situation was already like it was in town. So just the buildings that
21 were hidden by the Vojnicko Polje area. And you asked me about 50 metres,
22 well, I can't really say. I don't know about that.
23 Q. Do you know that at Ali Pasino Polje, military facilities had been
24 set up in the buildings?
25 A. The first buildings, or rather, the accompanying facilities were
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 evacuated straight away on the 2nd of May. Nobody could survive because
2 from Nedzarici, there was shooting. Soldiers shot from there, and others.
3 And only later on when the lines were established, the BH army was
4 certainly there. But I have no direct knowledge as to which locality they
5 were in in Nedzarici. There was quite a lot of frequent fighting along
6 that line with Nedzarici on the one side and the road and the hillocks and
7 slopes on the other side of Ali Posina Polje.
8 Q. Do you know who destroyed the buildings and facilities in
10 A. They were probably destroyed during the fighting. I don't know
11 who but probably during the fighting, the buildings were damaged and
13 Q. Do you happen to know how frequent the fighting was? Was there
14 fighting on a daily basis or sporadic fighting?
15 A. Well, from time to time there was fighting but, very often, in
16 Nedzarici there was fighting because the front lines were close by. And
17 it was an effort to link up Dobrinja with the town with a more secure
18 road, so that those first houses in Nedzarici which were facing the roads
19 towards Dobrinja were practically completely destroyed. And this could
20 be seen later on when the road became more secure and safer because the
21 army of Republika Srpska, which was in Nedzarici, was expelled from those
22 first houses. They had to withdraw from those first houses. So the army
23 didn't take them over. It was just in this sort of demarcation area or
25 Q. Which part of Dobrinja was to have been linked up with the town,
1 because you said 1, 2, 3, 4, 5?
2 A. Well, the whole of Dobrinja, the part under the control of
3 Republika Srpska, which is 5 or 10 percent, several buildings boarding on
4 the Lukavica barracks, which quite recently joined to Dobrinja. So this
5 is one settlement with all these different phases which got their name as
6 they were built. But otherwise, 40.000 Sarajevo inhabitants lived in the
7 Dobrinja district.
8 Q. So according to you, the fighting took place for Dobrinja 1, 2, 3
9 and 4 to be linked up with the urban part of town, as you call it. Is
10 that right?
11 A. Yes, for the communication between Dobrinja by road to Ali Pasino
12 Polje was enabled. So Dobrinja until that withdrawal of the army of
13 Republika Srpska from the first front-line houses in Nedzarici controlled
14 the road. And Dobrinja was in a double encirclement. There was the siege
15 around the whole of the city, and then Dobrinja was under siege -- a siege
16 of its own.
17 Q. Could you tell me, please, how many Serbs there were in Sarajevo
18 before the beginning of the war?
19 A. About 120.000.
20 Q. In view of the fact that you, yourself, were the mayor, how many
21 of them were there when you were town mayor?
22 A. Well, the assessment was that there were between 40.000 to 50.000
23 Serbs, and these were assessments by the Serb citizens council. No
24 census, no population census was taken during the war but I think the
25 assessments and evaluations were correct, at least judging by the lists of
1 humanitarian AID organisations and the lists of citizens receiving
2 humanitarian aid.
3 Q. How many Serbs are there in Sarajevo today?
4 A. I don't know. Probably 70.000, 80.000.
5 Q. Where do you get your figures from, what sources?
6 A. Well, as to today's figure, it is a figure that appears in the
7 media from time to time. But nobody knows the exact figure until a census
8 is conducted.
9 Q. When you say the media, do you mean the media in Sarajevo or the
10 media further afield?
11 A. Well, the media that work in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sarajevo and
12 further afield.
13 Q. During the conflict in Sarajevo, was -- were the media
15 A. Yes. The paper Oslobodjenje came out every day. The radio was
16 working all the time. Television, in part, during the day. And there
17 were other newspapers, too, that were published.
18 Q. Do you happen to know who the director of the Oslobodjenje
19 newspaper was and who published the paper, who printed it?
20 A. The publishing house Oslobodjenje published the paper, and their
21 director was, I think, Mr. Hasan Asengic [phoen] or some such name, who
22 had been the director before the war.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. I have no
24 further questions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to ask the prosecuting team whether there's
1 any need of re-examination on those subjects that have been touched by the
3 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour, thank you very much. We will not avail
4 ourselves of re-examination. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then, Mr. Kupusovic, this is the end of
6 your testimony. I would like to thank you very much for coming to
7 The Hague, and you are excused.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then, as I indicated yesterday, we would have a short
11 status conference now, but since the courtroom has to be prepared for
12 that, I would like to have a short break. Let's say ...
13 I understand that it takes 30 minutes to change the courtroom, so
14 perhaps it would be wise to see whether we can do it in a more efficient
15 way. Perhaps one question without violating any confidentiality. We had
16 spoken yesterday about the possible withdrawal of a motion. Could you,
17 without giving any further details, could the Prosecution please tell us
18 whether the motion I was just referring to will be withdrawn or not,
19 without going in any details because I know it's confidential.
20 MR. BLAXILL: Then I shall give an undetailed reply.
21 Mr. President. Yes, we will seek to withdraw.
22 JUDGE ORIE: This also means that there might be -- but I'm also
23 looking to the Defence that there might be no problem in perhaps
24 continuing at this moment with the next witness, and do the status
25 conference later on, unless this would cause you problems -- perhaps we
1 can't finish it today.
2 Perhaps instead of having a formal status conference, perhaps
3 we'll turn into, as far as I understand, a private session so that we can
4 discuss the matters we intended to discuss during the status conference.
5 If all parties agree, if there's no objection, I'll then now change to
6 private session.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Are we in private session now or -- just for a
9 moment, please.
10 After consulting with colleagues, we decided that we would discuss
11 the matters in closed session.
12 [Closed session]
13 Page 784 to 813 – redacted – closed session.
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday, one of the things I asked the parties to
22 inform the Chamber about any recent exchange of documents and the
23 disclosure. We have not received information on that as far as I'm aware
24 of. Just before discussing the issue, I would like to ask the Defence
25 whether they have any factual information on recent disclosure, and I
1 would do the same to the Prosecution.
2 Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for
4 giving me the floor on this precise question about recent communications
5 of files or information. I've got nothing to signal in particular. I'm
6 talking about recent communications, but I wish once again to express
7 myself on matters of principle connected with all the problems which have
8 been mooted a moment ago.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'll give you an opportunity for that later on.
10 Mr. Ierace, is there any -- because I got the impression yesterday
11 that there had been some recent disclosure or exchange of documents.
12 Could you please inform the Chamber about it.
13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. To remind you of what
14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin said yesterday, he informed the Trial Chamber that a few
15 hours before he rose to his feet, that he had received 97 folders, and I
16 think he later corrected that to 87 folders. The situation is that, in
17 fact, on the 1st of December, not yesterday, the Prosecution delivered to
18 the Defence in the form of Ms. Pilipovic 68 binders of documents. They
19 were delivered at two times on Saturday, the 1st of December, the first at
20 around 3.30 in the afternoon, and the second at around 5.00 the same
21 afternoon. And they were delivered personally to Ms. Pilipovic and an
22 assistant who was with her at the time.
23 Mr. President, those 68 binders represent the documentary entries
24 in the amended exhibit list, with these exceptions: That there are some
25 documents that we are still locating, approximately 190, and there are
1 some documents in relation to which we still await Rule 70 clearance from
2 various bodies, and other procedures to be carried out. I can indicate in
3 more detail those numbers. In relation to documents for which we are
4 awaiting Rule 70 clearance, there are 591 -- I'm sorry, 619, and 591 have
5 recently been cleared by New York and have been provided to the Defence on
6 the weekend. There are some other smaller number of documents which
7 require Rule 70 clearance. And I don't know that we need to go through
8 those at this stage. Those are by far the largest number and the biggest
10 That is the only recent disclosure, that is, in the last few days,
11 that I'm aware of, Mr. President. I can also indicate beyond that, if you
12 wish me to address matters more broadly, that the Prosecution is
13 continuing to check and recheck the documentation which it wishes to
14 disclose to the Defence and which it is obliged to disclose to the Defence
15 to ensure that both those categories are satisfied. Thank you,
16 Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, will you please respond to the
18 remarks of the Prosecution and to bring to the attention of the Chamber
19 whatever you want in this respect.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you,
21 Mr. President. I will answer, also expound, if you will let me, the very
22 great concern of the Defence for this. As a concrete example, numbering
23 of the exhibits. I had to refer to the Registry, ask the Registry because
24 we didn't know how to number them because we didn't know if an exhibit was
25 going to be accepted or rejected by your Chamber. This is the reason why
1 they will not always be a numbering on the exhibits which I will now
2 present. It's a very small detail, but accumulated with others it may
3 become important. What I wish to say here is we received from the
4 Prosecution about 10 metres in line of bundles for the Defence, and I
5 heard Mr. Ierace say that these exhibits were essential to these
6 proceedings, whether they contain this or that fact, which might be
7 reproached to General Galic.
8 I think I heard also that the exhibits were admitted during the
9 weekend, on the 1st of December. I was in The Hague. I didn't have
10 materially the time to peruse 50.000 pages, I think. And for this, I wish
11 to thank the Prosecution: We were given a search engine which is part of
12 the computer system. And I think your Tribunal probably will be
13 interested to know about it also. The first two exhibits which I wish to
14 tender are nothing else but the printer exhibits, as it has been
15 communicated by the Prosecution, with numbers D/3 and D/4 as the Registry
16 requested me to number them. Now, may I now transmit them to your
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Are they in English?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Excellent question,
20 Mr. President. I will answer immediately. Partly in extraterrestrial
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Well, this is a language I don't
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My third ear either,
25 Mr. President. But it is with pleasure I will show them and bring them to
2 I should think that if everybody has got the exhibits, we could
3 start by Exhibit D/3, Mr. President. May I continue?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. This document,
6 which you are now seeing is a just a photography -- a photograph of what
7 appears when the Prosecution search engine works. You just type key "S"
8 for the Defence to see what is recognised by the search engine on the
9 computer, and you will find under letter "S" things which are totally
11 I would like to ask Mr. Ierace what is meant SY3W -- see, I don't
12 think he speaks extraterrestrial either. I will not go further. What I
13 mean to say, Mr. President, is that the means we have at hand are not
14 technically reliable because the action is we have got names which are
15 hidden here. It might seem a joke, but it's not a joke, because if we
16 pass upon that very quickly on the indictment, and we take the next
17 number, if you will, D/4.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you will allow me, Mr. Counsel, I'm taking it
19 quite seriously what you say, and I've got only one answer to that:
20 Never search for "S" as such, because you might get every combination that
21 has an "S" in it, whether it's useful or not. So I would say that this is
22 hardly a demonstration, whether it works or not. I am quite interested to
23 see whether this is of any use to you, but not by searching an "S." So I
24 would leave out discussion on a search performed just on the letter "S,"
25 because that's what -- not only what you get but what you can expect to
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for
3 your observation. Thank you so much. You are perfectly right, perfectly
4 right. But simply what I wish to say - and I can demonstrate it with a
5 witness, if need be - is that if the computer reads that sort of things,
6 there are names hidden behind these codes. I can follow your thought,
7 underlying thought.
8 But if I make another research, and if I, for instance, type
9 "Galic," which is the only thing I'm interested in, the name Galic, the
10 indicted, and Taljanic, in practice. I don't think I will be reproached
11 for any mistake -- from doing any mistake. I see that the research
12 doesn't yield any result. But I would like to call the attention of your
13 Chamber to the fact that I didn't present this exhibit, but it is one of
14 the exhibits tendered by the prosecution, which is called "The Battle of
15 Sarajevo." I will give the computer references later, in which these two
16 names may be found, Galic and Taljanic. But you have the proof that the
17 result of the search gives 0, yields 0. If you want to try it, if you
18 have the disks, pages 7 and 11 of document entitled "Battle of Sarajevo" -
19 maybe the Prosecution can produce it while I'm talking - well, you will
20 find these occurrences Galic and Taljanic.
21 What I want to demonstrate by the exercise which you yourself --
22 I'll ask you not to only type "S" to have results, but if I type "Galic,"
23 something else, we get no result at all. And I have the documents here.
24 I can tender it to you. There are some documents with these occurrences.
25 We can, therefore, not work on a such a basis. And I only
1 received after Saturday, at the beginning of the week, these perhaps 68,
2 70, 80 bundles with a search engine which does not, will not function. It
3 is true --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you would allow me to interrupt
5 as well. I don't think that in this courtroom we can spend a lot of time
6 on discussing whether a certain search engine does work or not. I'm quite
7 sure that the Prosecution, who has provided you with this search engine,
8 will be of help to see whether it can be useful for you or not. Perhaps
9 one of the Prosecution assistants could give some assistance to the
10 Defence in how to use it, because it could make a lot of remarks on how
11 Galic and Taljanic would work as a search statement. But this is not the
12 place to discuss these kind of things.
13 Would the Prosecution, if there's any problem in using this
14 instrument or giving some education in it, would it be somewhat available
15 to help the Defence?
16 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. In fact, that search engine was
17 first provided many months ago to the Defence on a CD, on a number of CDs
18 with documents which we disclosed. It has not been provided with
19 documents which we have placed on the exhibit list, except insofar as they
20 were previously closed.
21 At the outset when it was provided, the Defence was invited to
22 contact us, if they wanted some assistance in operating the search engine.
23 The first complaint that I heard in relation to it was last Thursday, when
24 I met up with Mr. Piletta-Zanin in my office. He said he had a problem.
25 I immediately offered him the assistance of the OTP to explain to him how
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the search engine worked, and he said he didn't want it. He then asked me
2 if he could have a hard copy of the exhibit list. I told him he could
3 have it the next day. And he said that he -- it didn't suit him to have
4 the hard copy the next day, so I said, "Well, let us know when you want
5 and where you want it, and we'll give it to you." And that's what we did
6 on Saturday. The Office of the Prosecutor remains available to assist my
7 friends to search those documents.
8 There is one further point I would make: Disclosure, that is,
9 reciprocal disclosure, comes under Rule 66(B). That only requires the
10 Office of the Prosecutor to make available the books, documents, and so on
11 for inspection. The Office of the Prosecutor chose to go beyond that and
12 to give copies of the documents to the Defence. They told us what
13 categories they wanted. We provided them. We provided them on CD with a
14 search engine.
15 So in my respectful submission, this complaint has to be seen in
16 context. We have disclosed since the 9th of January 6.236, approximately,
17 documents. It seems sensible to us, since we were providing what they
18 asked for, that if we had a search engine, we should give them that as
19 well with an offer of assistance, and that's what we have done.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. I think we have to establish
21 that for one reason or another, Mr. Piletta-Zanin is at this moment not
22 able to achieve the results he would like to have with the search engine,
23 but on the other hand also that all possibilities to use this engine
24 perhaps better have not been exhausted yet. So I would like to leave the
25 issue of the search engine at this moment. We've taken notice of the
1 complaints of Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and I would invite him to bring other
2 issues to the attention of the Trial Chamber.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course,
4 Mr. President. Yes, of course. Thank you for your consideration. Yes, I
5 worked with very good teams computer-wise, and I have to say -- with all
6 respect, I have -- all due respect, you have several scanning systems, and
7 this is what happens when a page is presented, willfully or not, the other
8 way around, whatever technician, in particular those who tried to help me,
9 the scan which is used does not manage to read the words. It is not a
10 matter of competence of the members of the Prosecution or Defence. It's a
11 matter of procedure. If a page is put upside down, the scan will not
12 recognise the words. And by this rather clever ways, sometimes that's the
13 reality, all you need to do is to put a page upside down and the result
14 would be precisely what you've got in D/3, this accumulation of names
15 which don't mean anything. And if there are so many names, it's because
16 some pages were put in the machine upside down.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Just to interrupt you again, I think that I consider
18 the issue that you are bringing to the attention of the Chamber now also
19 deals with the search engine, possibility of the search engines, and I
20 think that I had decided that this discussion would, for the moment, be
21 over. And I have taken note of this. This Chamber has taken note that
22 you don't think at this moment that you can have any use of it, and it
23 doesn't work for you.
24 So if there's any other issue on the exchange, disclosure of
25 documents, you would like to bring to the attention of the Chamber, please
1 go ahead.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. Just one. I
3 will not come back to this question of the search engine, which is
4 perfectly clear. I think I heard the Chamber say a moment ago that we
5 should tender only pertinent documents, and the search engine produced
6 this sort of document, Mr. President, which I have to bring to the
7 attention of your Chamber because I think it is not with this that you can
8 prove or disprove anything. It's a document under the 06051 produced by
9 the search engine, and it's an article with some press caricatures, and
10 which has nothing to do with this procedure. What I mean to say here is
11 we have an enormous quantity, amount of these kind of documents. The
12 defence is not able to sort them out with a competent or not search
13 engine. It is not for us actually to sort these things out. This is
14 number 25. But those are produced by the Prosecution. And to finish
15 this, I wish to thank the Chamber for listening to me on this matter.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any other issue about the disclosure or
17 exchange of documents that hasn't been discussed at this moment?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps a last point,
19 Mr. President, to be examined, very last point. We'll use it -- we'll
20 give an example for one exhibit which has been tendered by the Prosecution
21 and which without a search engine gives two different numbers, serial
22 numbers. I don't know which to take first. I've got number 00268208,
23 00361575. May I repeat these numbers?
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just look at the screen whether the
25 numbers are written down properly. I think the first number is not
1 correctly ...
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will say again, the two
3 numbers of these exhibits. The first I quoted was 00268208, and the other
4 document, the other number was 00361575. I made copies if need be, which
5 I could tender. That one can see the problem even from where you are
6 sitting, Defence can strictly not take anything useful out of a document
7 which is mostly illegible, and this is one of the reasons why the search
8 engine doesn't work. We have there a document which gives an example, a
9 clear example, that it is not possible to make any use of it. I will
10 deposit it as Exhibit D/6, so it can be seen but technical and human
11 difficulties which is -- the Defence is confronted.
12 JUDGE ORIE: As far as the D/6 document is concerned,
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, did you ask the Prosecution for a better copy, a copy
14 you could read?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, but I have
16 to specify that this has to do with about 60 folders, and this is only one
17 example of an incredible number of documents which all appear in this
18 state. I really do not have the means of reading them. I'm very sorry,
19 we can't work that way. It's not workable.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Would the
21 Prosecution respond to that, briefly if possible.
22 MR. IERACE: Briefly, Mr. President. In relation to the latter of
23 the two documents, that is the medical report, firstly, I note that
24 although I cannot read B/C/S, I can see most of the letters which are on
25 that document. Secondly, I make this observation, that the Defence
1 informed the Prosecution, I think now some three months ago, that they
2 were having difficulty in reading some of the photocopies of the medical
3 reports, and we agreed with him that some parts of the medical reports
4 were illegible, and we would take steps to obtain better copies.
5 With that in mind, we undertook a special mission to Sarajevo to
6 get the best possible copies of the medical reports we could, and they
7 were brought back to The Hague in October, and within days of receiving
8 them here, we disclosed them to the Defence.
9 It may be that this is one of those documents. I don't say that
10 we now have a set of medical records where every single one of them is 100
11 percent legible, but I do say we have the most legible set possible. And
12 nothing more can be done about that. I come now to the first document
13 which appears to be an article from the Chicago Tribune with a political
14 cartoon beneath it. I note that my friend said this was off the exhibit
15 list. He's given us two numbers. I would be grateful if he could give us
16 the tracking number for this exhibit so that I can make some inquiries and
17 enlighten the Trial Chamber as to why it is on the exhibit list, if indeed
18 it was.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just comment shortly on it. This Chamber is
20 very well aware of the problems the Defence has in let me say digesting
21 the huge number of documents they received. This Chamber also is of the
22 view that we should try to solve the problems related to it and not to
23 exploit the problems as such. So whenever there's a problem, I would call
24 upon the parties first to communicate to each other to see whether they
25 can solve the problem. And at the same time, I can tell you that until a
1 decision has been taken on the leave for appeal that has been filed by the
2 Prosecution against the decision of the 16th of November of the Pre-Trial
3 Judge concerning the admissibility of documents, this Trial Chamber is --
4 has the intention not to allow any surprise disclosure of documents, the
5 use of documents by surprise. So I would ask the Prosecution that if at
6 this moment they can foresee what documents should be studied by priority,
7 because they are produced on a short notice, that at least they will
8 inform the Defence about it so that they can prepare as good as they can.
9 If, on the other hand, the Defence is confronted with a document of which
10 they think they have not been able to prepare properly, the Defence can
11 just tell the Trial Chamber and we'll look into the matter and see what
12 solution, if there is one, can be found. This is a call -- I'm calling
13 upon both parties to see whether they can work as efficiently as possible.
14 I would finally give both parties one possibility to react on what
15 I have just said. If you agree, it's fine. If you disagree, please tell
16 us briefly why.
17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all,
19 thank you for what you just said. And Defence has already had an
20 opportunity to say what it has repeated and will repeat again to your
21 Chamber in its other composition. Let me just say that the essential will
22 of the Defence was to find the truth, and in particular, the will of the
23 Defence is to help justice, to be the facilitator of justice, and nothing
24 else. But in this connection, as a barrister, I think I can recognise
25 perhaps as a computer expert, to recognize the problems. We will do all
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 we can to try and limit these problems but in this phase we can't do
2 anything else but to respectfully invite the Prosecution to eliminate from
3 its case file documents such as those which we have presented today, and
4 which apparently will not be readable and will not be reproduced before we
5 don't know how much time. So let us eliminate these documents. I said
6 yesterday that only 37 documents contained the name of General Galic, only
7 37 documents out of perhaps 40.000 pages or more, perhaps. Let us make an
8 effort in the name of justice, in the name of the clarity of the debate, I
9 invite my colleagues, and I thank you so much.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Is there anything the Prosecution want to say about
11 this, just also as briefly as possible.
12 MR. IERACE: I will keep it very brief, Mr. President. In
13 relation to reciprocal disclosure, I regret that the Defence did not tell
14 us six months ago that all they wanted were documents that mentioned the
15 name Galic.
16 In relation to making exhibits available to the Defence in
17 advance, there is only one witness we who will be calling in the next four
18 days through whom exhibits will be tendered, and that is the Witness
19 Mr. Nakas. Copies of those exhibits, although they were disclosed many,
20 many months ago, will be deposited in the Defence locker this afternoon.
21 Mr. President, the only other issue I would raise in relation to
22 disclosure relates to reciprocal disclosure of documents by the Defence.
23 Mrs. Pilipovic has told me, I think now some six weeks ago, that the
24 Defence has not yet completed its obligation to disclose documents to the
25 Prosecution, and I would be grateful if she could give some indication as
1 to when that process is likely to be completed. I have some understanding
2 of the difficulties which are involved with disclosure. This is by far
3 the most extensive reciprocal trial that the Tribunal has dealt with, and
4 it has posed enormous problems. But nevertheless I would be grateful if
5 she could provide a date or a month by which she will have given us all of
6 the documents of which she is presently aware, which come under reciprocal
7 disclosure. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm glad to hear that both parties are willing to
9 assist each other and fully comprehend the problems the parties are facing
10 at this moment. I think we discussed at this moment the issue of
11 disclosure of documents in general. Whenever there comes a point when
12 someone is surprised by any document, please let the Chamber know
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, let me just say I found there to be a
15 very cooperative atmosphere with the Defence on this issue.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That is good to hear, Mr. Ierace. Then I would like
17 to proceed. Let me just have a look at the clock. I think it is still
18 useful to start the examination of your witness, Mr. Ierace. Do you
20 MR. IERACE: That would be convenient to the Prosecution,
21 Mr. President. Mr. Blaxill will take the next witness. Will you allow us
22 to make some changes at the bar table?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the documents that have just been
24 provided by the Defence should be admitted. Whether they have any
25 value for -- any probative value is a different matter, but I think they
1 have played a role in our discussion. Therefore, they should be
2 registered properly. So with the consent of both parties as I hope, they
3 will be registered, get a number, and -- well, admitted.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit numbers will be D/3, D/4, D/5, and
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. With the
8 Court's indulgence, my learned colleague Mark mentioned the introduction
9 of documents through a witness. For us to be as effective as possible and
10 for the Defence to state its views as to those documents, I should like to
11 ask my learned colleagues if they could at least tell us two days in
12 advance so that the Defence knows which documents they are. My colleagues
13 tell me that they have been disclosed. I can't say at this point in time,
14 so I would like to ask them to supply us with those documents at least two
15 days before the witness is due to come on. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I can see on these newest lists, exhibits
17 are mentioned. So if these lists are communicated to the Defence, I think
18 you may be aware, but it's your intention to communicate these lists to
19 the Defence so that you know up until -- well, let's say the 14th witness,
20 what exhibits the Prosecution intends to tender, and they have offered to
21 put in your mail box this afternoon those documents that will be tendered
22 in evidence for the coming days.
23 Okay, then. I think we can proceed with the examination of the
24 next witness, which is not a witness under pseudonym. Mr. Ierace, your
25 next witness will be?
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. Kovac.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac. Could the usher please bring in the
4 It is suggested by the Registry that we have the break now, and
5 then perhaps continue. I'm asking the interpreters booth whether if we
6 continue at 20 minutes to 6.00, whether we could continue until 7.00.
7 Would this be possible?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Then we better have a break now
10 for 20 minutes, and then continue until 7.00. Thank you.
11 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 5.43 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's already for the third time today I asked
14 the Prosecution who they will call as their next witness.
15 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. It will be Mr. Mustafa Kovac who we will call
16 to testify, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, will you please bring in the witness.
18 I just ask the Prosecution --
19 [The witness entered court]
20 WITNESS: MUSTAFA KOVAC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Mr. Kovac, can you hear me in a
23 language which you understand?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hear you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, Rule 90(A) requires you to make a solemn
1 declaration, of which the text will be provided to you. And I invite you
2 to do so.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kovac.
6 Mr. Blaxill, you may proceed.
7 MR. BLAXILL: I am much obliged to you, Mr. President. Thank
9 Examined by Mr. Blaxill:
10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kovac. Would you please give the Court your
11 full name and your date of birth, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think there is a problem, as far as the audio is
14 Q. Mr. Kovac, can you hear me?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Kovac, would you be so kind as to give your full name and your
17 date of birth to the Chamber.
18 A. My name is Mustafa Kovac. I was born on the 12th of March, 1958
19 in Sarajevo.
20 Q. And can you tell me, sir, are you a married man?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you have any children?
23 A. I have three children.
24 Q. And were all three of your children alive in 1992? They had all
25 been born by then, had they?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you just tell the Chamber briefly about your educational
3 background. What education did you follow?
4 A. I went to primary school in Sarajevo. It was the Blagoje Parovic
5 primary school. And then I graduated from the 3rd gymnasium in Sarajevo
6 and then went on to the Faculty of Political Sciences. It was the Veljko
7 Vlahovic faculty in Sarajevo. And at present, I am doing post-graduate
8 studies. My thesis is in the field of Civil Defence.
9 Q. After completing your education, did you do any compulsory
10 military service?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When did you do that?
13 A. That was in 1983.
14 Q. Can you tell us, please, in what military disciplines or
15 activities were you trained?
16 A. I was trained as a military policeman.
17 Q. Did you receive any other kind of training in the use of
18 particular weapons or any kind of particular skills?
19 A. Only within the frameworks of general military training.
20 Q. What would those frameworks have included?
21 A. In the former Yugoslav People's Army, there was specialised
22 training linked to training for military policemen.
23 Q. And can you tell us, please, did that include any form of weapon
25 A. Yes, of course. We were taught marksmanship, and as soldiers, we
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 did marksmanship.
2 Q. Were you issued any equipment for that specific purpose?
3 Personally, that is.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What were you actually issued with so you could do that basic
7 A. As far as basic training was concerned, we were issued weapons,
8 and I got a sniper rifle.
9 Q. When you refer to a sniper rifle, what sort of thing is that,
10 please? Can you tell us?
11 A. It is a type of weapon that the military police used in the
12 execution of its duties.
13 Q. Is there any difference between a sniper rifle -- I do beg your
14 pardon. Between a sniper rifle and any other kind of ordinary infantry
15 small arms?
16 A. Well, the only difference -- yes, there was a difference. The
17 difference was that it used special ammunition and had an optic sight.
18 Q. Can you tell us what the purpose or the benefit of the optic sight
19 was to the use of such a weapon?
20 A. With that kind of weapon, you could target at a distance. You
21 could target specific objects which you had to see close to if you were to
22 hit your target correctly.
23 Q. What effect did that have on the effective range, therefore, of
24 the weapon?
25 A. The person doing the shooting using this type of weapon could
1 select his target.
2 Q. Could you give us any idea of the kind of distance, perhaps in
3 metres, where that would be effective?
4 A. It could be effective up to 1.000 metres, as the crow flies.
5 Q. And you also referred to having special ammunition. Can you say
6 what was special about that ammunition?
7 A. It was special because the actual bullet contained lead. And it
8 also had some other properties. But the ammunition was lead ammunition
9 which inflicts greater injuries on the target, which means that it is
10 high-precision targeting, and the wound inflicted would be greater.
11 Q. Having said that, can you tell us -- I'm not asking you to be any
12 kind of ballistics expert here, Mr. Kovac, but can you tell us what they
13 told you what was the difference therefore in how the lead bullets that
14 you used in the sniper weapon differed from the bullets in a normal
15 infantry weapon?
16 A. The success rate in targeting was much higher.
17 Q. Can you tell me, do you recall what brand or make that that sniper
18 weapon was that you were given?
19 A. The sniper rifle was manufactured by the weapons factory of
20 Kragujevac. It was a rifle of a 7.9 millimetre calibre. It was carbine,
21 in fact, of the carbine type. So in addition to the fact that it was used
22 as a carbine, it could also be used as a sniper rifle because the optic
23 sight was placed on the carbine, turning it into a sniper rifle.
24 Q. One other thing I would ask you about that: You refer to the
25 optic sight. Can you tell us what make and type of thing that optic sight
2 A. They were optic sights, domestically produced, probably. They
3 were military domestic sights. I can't tell you the manufacturer's name.
4 Q. Can you recall the level of magnification that that sight was
5 designated for?
6 A. Yes. On the optic sight, when you looked through the optic sight
7 itself, there was certain markings for distance so that there were certain
8 distances on the optic sight, and you could determine with great precision
9 how far you wanted to target objects, at what distance your targets were.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Kovac, when did you in fact complete your compulsory
11 military service?
12 A. I completed my compulsory military service, that is to say, I went
13 to the former Yugoslav people's army at the beginning of 1983, on the 7th
14 of January, in fact. And I left the former Yugoslav people's army on the
15 28th or 29th, one of those two days, of November, 1983.
16 Q. And what profession did you follow after you had left military
18 A. After doing my military service, I got a job in the Novi Grad
19 municipality, and I dealt with civil defence matters.
20 Q. And how long did you remain in the civil defence area of your
22 A. In fact, from 1984, the beginning of 1984, right through to the
23 present, I am in civil defence. I never interrupted my work -- years of
25 Q. Would you now then please tell the Chamber which positions you
1 have held and where in your career in civil defence to date.
2 A. At first, I was a coordinator for civil defence and monitoring
3 training in civil defence among the population, that is, protection of the
4 population in the municipality of Novi Grad. Then I was coordinator for
5 protection and relief measures. And at the beginning of the war, that is
6 at the beginning of 1992, I was appointed head of the civil defence staff
7 for Novi Grad municipality.
8 In 1994, the beginning of that year, I was appointed commander of
9 the district staff of civil defence for Sarajevo. In 1995, I was
10 appointed head of civil defence staff for the city of Sarajevo. In 1996,
11 I was appointed head of the civil defence staff for the canton of
12 Sarajevo, and that is the position I hold now.
13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kovac, if I can take you back to just before --
14 around the beginning of 1992, what sort of events had the Civil Protection
15 force or civil defence been organised to deal with? What sort of ...
16 A. At the beginning of 1992, civil defence dealt with its activities
17 which involved removal, evacuation, and care for casualties and people
18 exposed to risk, without yet having any idea of what was to come. We, in
19 the civil defence, kept the population informed of possible attacks on the
20 city, or rather, to be more specific, the area of the municipality of Novi
21 Grad. And we sought to organise life in such a way so that the civil
22 population would overcome the situation as easily as possible.
23 Q. And that is a situation you faced, then, at the beginning of
24 1992. I should have perhaps asked this beforehand. What was the Civil
25 Protection or civil defence set up for prior to that, in the former
2 A. Civil defence in the former Yugoslavia was formed with a view to
3 protecting and rescuing the population in jeopardy, or needing care. And
4 it came under the defence secretariat. When talking about the components
5 of defence in the former Yugoslavia, civil defence was a defence
6 component, if I can put it in that way, intended to protect the civilian
7 population, and that was its exclusive responsibility.
8 Q. From that description, what was the relationship or the intended
9 relationship at that time between the civil defence and, let us say, the
10 army, and the police, those three different bodies?
11 A. According to the laws formerly in force and prescribed at the
12 level of the former Yugoslavia, the defence consisted of the armed forces,
13 the civil defence, the system of information and reporting, and special
14 purpose production. The armed component consisted of the army and the
15 police, or rather, the present-day police. So civil defence was the
16 unarmed component of defence, and its task was to defend the country, or
17 rather to defend the population with the means available to it, to the
18 civil defence, and that means with shovels, pick axes, fire extinguishing
19 equipment, stretchers, medical teams, through units of civil defence that
20 existed at the time.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. So from whom in civil defence did you take any
22 instructions to take action in Sarajevo when the conflict began in 1992?
23 A. In our concrete case, we received instructions from the city staff
24 of civil defence for Sarajevo, but the instructions certainly came from
25 the republican level, civil defence staff, which operated at the level of
1 the republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And this republic staff was within
2 the framework of the Ministry of Defence.
3 Q. And your Civilian Protection staff, how were they recruited and
4 from what sectors of the population did they tend to come?
5 A. If we're talking about recruitment to the staff of civil defence
6 or protection at the beginning of 1992, then I can say that a large number
7 of people was retained in the staff. A certain number of people left
8 Sarajevo. And we filled in their places primarily with people who were by
9 profession and by education capable of performing those tasks.
10 Q. Now, you've made reference to the start of the war in Sarajevo.
11 Can you, very briefly, just describe the conditions that existed after May
12 of 1992 and for the rest of that year, in terms of what actually
13 happened, just very briefly.
14 A. If we were to view it from the point of view of the civil defence,
15 in that period, the civil defence had a lot to do. We had a large number
16 of wounded and killed civilians. Also, we had a large number of refugees
17 that had moved from certain parts of Sarajevo towards either the centre of
18 town, that is, to certain municipalities, or through certain different
19 channels left the country. And I can say that in the territory of Novi
20 Grad municipality, in that time period, there was about 40.000 refugees
21 from parts of Eastern Bosnia, parts of the municipalities of Ilidza, Novo
22 Sarajevo, parts of the Vogosca and other areas swept by war.
23 Q. Just a moment, please. You've mentioned wounded and killed
24 civilians. Can you describe how these people were being wounded and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Well, there were frequent shellings. The shellings usually were
2 sudden or, on the other hand, continuous. When talking about the sudden
3 shellings, shells would fall unexpectedly in a crowd where people had
4 gathered for supplies, whether it be to receive humanitarian aid or to
5 collect water, or places where various products were being sold or on
6 sale, that is, at marketplaces. In addition, there were attacks on
7 apartment buildings, and these buildings provided no safety for the
9 Q. Mr. Kovac, can you say roughly the areas around the city that
10 received shells on any given occasion? Were there any particular areas
11 that were targeted or was it more general?
12 A. It is hard to say that there were targeted areas. More or less
13 every neighbourhood was shelled, some more, some less. But virtually
14 every neighbourhood was shelled.
15 Q. And how regular was this shelling? Let's say through 1992 and
16 even through 1993, how often did it occur?
17 A. In the first year, that is, if we're talking about 1992, I can say
18 that the shelling was very frequent. The pauses between the shellings
19 were brief, and the shelling occurred either early in the morning, at
20 dawn, and then it went on all day or it would start early in the evening
21 and go on all night.
22 Q. Was there any other kind of shooting that affected your life in
23 Sarajevo while that war was on, other than the shelling?
24 A. Well, yes. In the lulls when people would come out of their
25 homes, along the routes that people took to town and back, various kinds
1 of weapons were used to target them. At first, we didn't know what types
2 of weapons and artillery were being used. But after a certain period of
3 time, people learned that these were sniper bullets, that is, sniper
4 shots, also machine-gun fire, so-called sowers of death, and then light
5 anti-aircraft guns were also used, the so-called Pat, P-A-T, which at the
6 top of the round are armoured, so that they could go through walls and
7 destroy buildings and penetrate inside.
8 Q. Mr. Kovac, faced with that situation, what were the first actual
9 practical things that the civil defence were deployed to do? Did you have
10 to have anything to do with the utilities or what other things did you do
11 practically at the beginning of the war in these circumstances?
12 A. Yes. Immediately after the conflict broke out, electricity was
13 cut. Then water supplies were also interrupted, and there was major
14 damage inflicted on the infrastructure. And what I mean is the PTT
15 network, the water supply network, the sewerage, and in any event, it was
16 our duty to organise ourselves and to try to do our best to ensure
17 supplies for the population.
18 Q. What action did your civil defence people take in respect of water
19 supply? What was your involvement in that?
20 A. When we're talking about that problem, we organised -- or rather,
21 through the town civil defence staff, we organised delivery of water with
22 the help -- with the assistance of tank trucks, to all the
23 municipalities. And all the local communities, through the civil defence,
24 had a timetable for water delivery, and we took part in those deliveries
25 so that water was transported every two or three days to a certain
1 location, where people would be waiting in line. And in that way, they
2 were supplied with water.
3 Q. Where did the water come from in the first place that filled these
5 A. Those were -- in those days, there were very few sources of water.
6 There was water coming from the area of the brewery, which is in the old
7 part of the city. And the Sarajevo brewery used to use that water to
8 produce beer, and it still does, in fact.
9 Q. During the course of those deliveries, did these trucks ever
10 encounter difficulties because of shelling and sniping?
11 A. In our plans of supplies, we sought to find locations that were
12 better protected and that were not so visible. But nevertheless, it did
13 happen that in some way unknown to me, those locations were shelled
15 Q. Did these arrangements for the water, did they carry on through
16 1993, throughout that year?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what about the winter of 1993 to 1994, what were the
19 conditions like for supplying water to the city in terms of the work your
20 Civil Protection did? What were the conditions like for supplying the
21 civilians with water?
22 A. Talking about winter, in addition to the water, which was an acute
23 problem, another major problem was heating. I still remember very well
24 the winter of 1992/1993. People sought various ways to come by firewood.
25 They would even destroy their own furniture in their dwellings in order to
1 heat the areas in which children lived.
2 Q. Thank you. But if I may return to that question, Mr. Kovac,
3 what about the supply of the water to the people during that winter of
4 1993, 1994?
5 A. So in addition to these tank trucks or trucks with reservoirs,
6 pumps were also built in certain areas, and that was one way in which we
7 improved the water supply. That is, in the parts of the municipalities
8 where there was water in the ground and we received some water pumps from
9 some humanitarian organisations, and we drilled for water and installed
10 those pumps there and thus improved the situation.
11 Q. And when you say "we," do you mean physically the staff of your
12 own civil defence people? They were actually doing the work? Is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what about the similar situation for the electricity service
16 to the city? Did your civil defence workers have an active physical role
17 in anything to do with supply or repair for that particular resource, for
19 A. Yes. With the help of professional teams coming from the
20 electricity board of Sarajevo.
21 Q. What sort of work, physical work, did that involve your staff
22 doing in respect of the electricity supply?
23 A. Well, they worked to dig, to protect the cables leading to
24 transformer stations. And during the wartime, we resorted to cables along
25 the ground so that canals had to be dug for those electricity lines
1 because all the transmission lines on pillars were damaged, and even if
2 they were repaired, they would be destroyed again, so that we decided to
3 protect those cables by digging them into the ground.
4 Q. Did your people carry out this type of work throughout the
5 conflict, that is, say, certainly from May 1992 up to the end of 1993,
6 early 1994?
7 A. Mostly. With the assistance, I must say again, of the
8 professionals from the electricity board.
9 Q. Did you have any involvement with the other utility of town, the
10 gas system? Did you ever have work to do on that?
11 A. Yes. And there was some natural gas, but to be quite frank, we
12 couldn't rely on it on a more durable basis for fuel. Nevertheless, in
13 the 1992/1993 period, a number of neighbourhoods, with the assistance of
14 the civil defence, was provided with gas.
15 Q. Was the shelling and sniping going on whilst your people performed
16 work on these utilities?
17 A. Yes. Throughout that time, there were shelling and other types of
19 Q. And did the Civil Protection service have anything to do with the
20 issue of food for the city during that same period, during the conflict or
21 the part of it from May 1992 up to the end of 1993, early 1994?
22 A. Well, yes, certainly. It was through the civil defence that food
23 was distributed among all local communities and to all neighbourhoods.
24 Q. And how did you go about that? Did that require going to specific
25 distribution points or taking food stuffs to individuals?
1 A. There were places in the local communities where the citizens that
2 were mobile would come to those places. For citizens who were unable to
3 move, the old, the weak, or sick, we organised delivery to their
4 place of residence, to their place of homes.
5 Q. And what was the -- what was the general way -- you say the
6 citizens that were mobile would come to those places. Were these regular
7 distribution places or did you alter those collection places from time to
9 A. Precisely for security reasons, we changed those distribution
10 points precisely because of the possibility of them being shelled.
11 Q. And was this distribution by your people of locally-produced food
12 stuff, i.e., food that was within Sarajevo, or was that involved in the
13 distribution of outside humanitarian aid?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I can't have asked you that cleverly to you, Mr. Kovac. Was that
16 locally grown or locally produced food that you delivered?
17 A. Mostly, as there was insufficient food in 1992 and 1993 and later
18 as well, then certainly it was food that arrived in Sarajevo through
19 humanitarian organisations.
20 Q. Thank you very much. Now, did the civil defence have any other
21 areas in which they tried to -- physically, to improve the survival
22 lifestyle of the civilians? Did they, for instance, make any products
23 that could be used? Were they involved in any things like clothing or
24 anything else?
25 A. Certainly. At the level of the city and also at the level of each
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 of the municipalities, we organised workshops, and all able-bodied people
2 in the appropriate fields were recruited so that we had a workshop for
3 the repair of roofs that were damaged through the shelling, and then these
4 people from the civil defence would go and cover those buildings. We also
5 had tailor shops, and all people who lacked clothing and footwear, we
6 assisted them by making something for them to wear so they would be
7 protected, especially during the winter months.
8 We also had workshops for repairing the gas network, for
9 repairing the electricity distribution system when there was electricity
10 for brief periods, for repairing the PT network. The PTT did function,
11 but then their experts worked in various neighbourhoods and monitored the
12 functioning of the PTT network. And then there were also specialists and
13 teams for repairing the electricity grids, though as I have said,
14 electricity was in very short supply during this period.
15 Q. And as regards, you've mentioned helping to fix roofs. Were there
16 any other areas of involvement that the Civil Protection had in connection
17 with the damage to buildings as such?
18 A. Yes. We repaired, that is to say, the UNHCR sent to our central
19 warehouse at the level of the city staff, plastic foil arrived and other
20 protective materials. And from them, they were distributed it to the
21 local communities. And after that, teams went out to see to the repair
22 work and protected windows with this plastic sheeting because the glass --
23 the windows had been shattered on many buildings. And this would make
24 life easier for the people living inside. It would make it warmer.
25 Q. And in the course of your own duties, did you have cause to go
1 around the city of Sarajevo much, or did you stay mostly within your one
3 A. It depended on the need. There were various meetings at the level
4 of the municipality, and depending on where their office was. As for the
5 Novi Grad municipality, I was in the field quite a lot. That is to say, I
6 toured the local communities fairly frequently and moved around in the
7 region I was in charge in, which was the Novi Grad municipality, mostly.
8 I went into town only sporadically. And let me tell you, to be quite
9 frank, the situation in Novi Grad was the same as in all the other parts
10 of town.
11 Q. In terms, having referred to damage to property, how bad was that
12 damage in Novi Grad or the other areas that you toured around, let us say
13 by the end of 1993?
14 A. As I'm not an expert in the field in assessing damage, I can't
15 tell you exactly what the damage to property was. I think the damage is
16 enormous, and cannot be assessed. I think that the damage was extremely
17 great and only expert reports and investigations done by professionals in
18 the field could give a proper answer to that question. But at the level
19 of the municipalities, commissions were set up to ascertain the damage
20 done, and they functioned within the town planning departments. And after
21 every shelling, those commissions, having been informed by the civil
22 defence people that certain property had been damaged in a certain
23 locality, those commissions, in keeping with the prevailing situation,
24 would go out to that locality to ascertain what damage had been done. And
25 I think that at the level of all the municipalities, and at the level of
1 the city of Sarajevo itself, this has been calculated. It exists in
2 figures. They have figures as to what the damage incurred was, and it was
4 Q. At this stage, I would like -- really suggest it was a case of
5 your own naked eye. I would ask you one thing, was there any difference
6 -- in the sense of buildings that were damaged or less damaged, was there
7 any difference between domestic houses and apartment blocks and offices
8 and other buildings in terms of them receiving some damage, or was
10 A. If we were to look at it that way, I don't think we could divide
11 it up in that way. For example, that the target -- that what was targeted
12 was office buildings or private buildings and so on. I think there was
13 damage all over the place at one and the same time.
14 Q. There's just one thing I would ask you. You say there were
15 quantities of plastic delivered, the plastic foil for windows. Can you
16 tell me, please, what colour that plastic was?
17 A. It was white, and it said the "UNHCR" on it in capital letters.
18 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
19 Now, at that time while all this work was going on by your people
20 in civil defence, how many people did you have in your civil defence
21 force to do this work?
22 A. On my staff, I had ten people, ten of my assistants. And they
23 were my assistants in the different areas of rescue and protection work.
24 Q. And of those assistants, did they or were they able to call upon
25 the services of other people to perform work?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So can you indicate, in your municipality, how many people in all
3 would have been working in Civil Protection during -- or civil defence,
4 I'm sorry, civil defence during that time?
5 A. As far as the civil defence staff of the municipality is
6 concerned, we had a total of 12 people working there. In the local
7 communities, civil defence staffs of that particular local community were
8 set up and they had five members each. In addition to those cadres, if I
9 can call them that, there were civil defence units which were set up in 22
10 local communities in the Novi Grad municipality. Each of those units
11 numbered approximately between 30 to 50 members. And in addition to those
12 people, there were the civil defence foremen who informed and monitored 20
13 inhabitants in the area, were in charge of that many number. 200, I beg
14 your pardon, 200 inhabitants. So that the figure -- if we look at 22
15 local communities times 30 persons on an average, that would make it about
16 600 people or 1.000 people working in the civil defence area for Novi
18 The Novi Grad municipality at that time had 120.000 inhabitants,
20 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Kovac, what was the ethnic composition of
21 your staff and then generally the civil defence people in the
23 A. I can say quite frankly and openly that the ethnic composition was
24 satisfactory. When I say that it was satisfactory, I must say that some
25 of the inhabitants of the Novi Grad municipality had left following
1 certain directives; or for some other reasons, they had left the Novi Grad
2 municipality. But many people stayed on as well. I was very pleased to
3 see that quite a lot of people stayed, and this was reflected in the area
4 of civil defence. In my own staff, out of the ten of us there, four
5 people were the representatives of other nations. And if you like, I can
6 give you their names and surnames. They were representatives of the
7 Serbs, the Croats, and the Bosniaks.
8 Q. Mr. Kovac, we've heard that there was a mobilisation during 1992,
9 obviously to form the army, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So where were
10 you able, then, to draw your Civil Protection people, civil defence
11 people, if a lot of young men and middle-aged men, presumably, went into
12 the army?
13 A. When the mobilisation appeal was made, and in conformity with the
14 instructions given out by the Defence Ministry of Bosnia-Herzegovina, many
15 people reported to the local communities and secretariats of defence in
16 the municipalities in which they lived. Now, when it came to civil
17 defence, some of the young people had applied to the civil defence to
18 begin with. But very soon after afterwards, when these national -- when
19 the defence secretariat was doing the mobilisation, sent those people to
20 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and in the civil defence, it was mostly
21 people over the age of 40 or 45 who stayed on. And there were also women
22 and young people who were not fully capacitated to perform military
23 duties, partially unfit.
24 Q. Thank you. If I could move on to the relations between the civil
25 defence forces of people and other services to the city. You mentioned
1 earlier the question of moving population and evacuation. Is that right?
2 You can just answer rather quickly.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did your civil defence people have anything to do with the
5 ambulance service of the city?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And in what way did civil defence offer assistance to the
8 ambulance service?
9 A. Within the frameworks of the activities that the civil defence
10 conducted within the local communities, we set up teams for first aid to
11 people in the local areas. And those teams were able to give basic first
12 aid. But we had also organised a certain number of vehicles so that the
13 people who had been injured or were suffering in any way, we were able to
14 transfer them to larger centres for -- where they were able to get medical
15 assistance. So we took them to the hospitals, whether they were state
16 hospitals or the Kosevo compound.
17 Q. Now, in organising those vehicles, did you do anything to try and
18 distinguish them as ambulance-type vehicles?
19 A. Yes. That was the aim, and we placed a Red Cross symbol on those
20 vehicles which denoted vehicles specifically intended for the transport of
21 persons who were wounded or injured. But let me also mention in this
22 regard that we used other vehicles, too, vehicles who happened to be at a
23 certain place at a certain time. And in order to save citizens' lives, we
24 had to intervene on an emergency basis.
25 Q. Are you aware as to whether any of those marked vehicles that you
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 deployed for this purpose ever sustained any kind of gunfire from either
2 shelling or sniping?
3 A. Yes. Even the ambulances, the official ambulances, belonging to
4 the municipality, they were destroyed, too.
5 Q. In what manner? You say they were destroyed. In what way were
6 they destroyed?
7 A. When they were passing through certain danger zones in town, and
8 also they were targeted by snipers on the one hand, and they were shelled
9 on the other. Now, whether the shelling had targeted these vehicles on
10 purpose or whether they were hit by chance, accidentally, that's another
12 Q. And you've made reference also to "the official ambulances
13 belonging to the municipality." What kind of vehicles were they, and what
14 kind of colours were they and markings did they have?
15 A. Well, they were the classical type of vehicle. They were
16 combi-vans, the kind that are used all over the world for ambulances,
17 which means they were white vans with a Red Cross emblem on them, and it
18 said "ambulance" on the vehicle.
19 Q. Did they have any kind of identifying lights on them?
20 A. Yes, they had the sirens, blue lights on the roofs.
21 Q. Did your civil defence service have an involvement with the fire
22 brigade or fighting fires?
23 A. Yes. We had very good cooperation with the fire brigade of the
24 city of Sarajevo, and let me say that at the beginning of the war, in all
25 the municipalities, a specialised unit for extinguishing fires was set up
1 for fire-fighting. And it functioned within the frameworks of voluntary
2 fire-fighters associations. And as such, those units were added to the
3 professional fire brigade for the city of Sarajevo, to help them.
4 Q. And did your staff members get involved in dealing with a lot of
5 fires during the conflict period that I've referred to, from May 1992 up
6 to the end of 1993?
7 A. Yes. They were large-scale fires.
8 Q. And did -- what sort of equipment did your people have to try and
9 tackle these fires compared, say to, the local fire brigade and such?
10 A. Well, we endeavoured to ensure that people could be recognised as
11 fire-fighters in the fire-fighting society. In addition to the fire
12 brigade, we had the necessary equipment and uniforms that the fire-fighters
13 were able to avail themselves of. They had certain uniforms, not perhaps
14 state of the art, but quite good enough. They had helmets which were
15 usually yellow, and they also had hoses and a number of fire engines,
17 Q. And did they have to perform -- sorry, I won't ask that. Thank
19 What I would like to do is just ask you quickly as well -- I'm
20 mindful of the time, Your Honours -- as to relations with the police.
21 What were the different duties that the police would perform in the town
22 and civil defence people would perform?
23 A. By law, the law that was enforced at the time and the rules and
24 regulations coming from the internal affairs ministry, and they were rules
25 and regulations that were well known to the people at the head of the
1 police force, the police dealt with security tasks, law and order within a
2 settlement, and giving assistance to the army if there was an escalation
3 of the conflict in certain regions or areas.
4 As far as the civil defence's relations with the police are
5 concerned, it was always a correct and proper relationship, and always
6 within the frameworks of the laws in force at the time. Through our
7 commissioners, our civil defence commissioners, and staffs in the local
8 communities, we would supply the police with any information that could
9 have been of interest for the police, and we were satisfied with that
10 cooperation. And in certain cases, the police would help us if there was
11 unrest when aid was being distributed or water was being distributed, and
12 other situations as well which required the police -- which required the
13 police assistance. Or if there was any general unrest in town.
14 Q. And did you have any dealings yourself or any linked activity with
15 the UN forces in Sarajevo, the UNPROFOR presence? Did you have any
16 dealings with them?
17 A. Yes. And I should like to point out that we had some very fine
18 cooperation. I had direct and continuous cooperation, in fact, and visits
19 from the foreign legion's battalion, which was in charge of the Sarajevo
20 airport and which following UN tasks had come to see what was going on in
21 the Novi Grad municipality. So in addition to visiting the other services
22 and organs, they would pay regular visits to the civil defence staff, the
23 municipal civil defence staff and the local communities and staffs within
24 those communities. So we had excellent cooperation.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, if I may interrupt you, if you could
1 find a suitable moment within the next two or three minutes to finish at
2 least for today your examination, I would be happy.
3 MR. BLAXILL: I had one, I trust, brief question on this topic,
4 and I was going to suggest to Your Honours we had found a very natural
5 break in the examination.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Just proceed.
7 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. One last question I would like to ask you, Mr. Kovac, very
9 quickly. Did you receive any assistance from the UNPROFOR from time to
10 time, i.e. with actual equipment or actual physical help?
11 A. Well, let me tell you: From time to time they would assess the
12 situation in places where people had -- where there were a lot of people,
13 or in relation to ambulances, if they had a bit of fuel or a bit of food.
14 Let me say that it wasn't under their competence to help us. We received
15 aid from other channels, from other humanitarian organisations. But yes,
16 the assistance they were able to give was always very welcome. So I can
17 say that we had very good cooperation, and they were there to monitor and
18 see whether the humanitarian aid was distributed properly.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kovac.
20 MR. BLAXILL: That is very much a natural break, Your Honour, for
21 my examination-in-chief.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Blaxill. It is almost 7.00,
23 so I would suggest that we adjourn now and resume by tomorrow at quarter
24 past 2.00. Ms. Pilipovic, I saw you almost standing up. Is there
25 anything you would like to say?
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine, then. The Court will sit in recess
3 until tomorrow at 2.15 p.m. Thank you.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
5 6.59 p.m., to be reconvened on
6 Thursday, the 6th day of December, 2001
7 at 2.15 p.m.