Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 960

1 Friday, 7 December 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Ladies and gentlemen, General

6 Galic. Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Before we continue the cross-examination of Mr. Kovac, I'd like to

11 come back on a few issues that were discussed during the past few days,

12 and one of them is how we should deal with documents in this Court. I'll

13 try to explain to you as clearly as I can how we intend to do it. If

14 there are any questions remaining, you always can ask it to the Registrar,

15 and if there's any problem in relation with that, she'll be in touch with

16 me to solve these problems.

17 So how to deal with documents that have been used during trial.

18 We are talking about documents that have been shown to a witness or have

19 been shown to the Chamber, not just documents of which a few lines have

20 been read without showing them to the Chamber or to the other party or to

21 a witness. It should be clear from the beginning whether the party that

22 shows such a document or an object or a video intends to tender the

23 document in evidence because if it's not intended to have this document

24 tendered in evidence, it will just be marked for identification.

25 The procedure for marking for identification is the following one:

Page 961

1 One, documents to be marked for identification do not need any

2 pre-numbering by the parties. Two, the original of the document should be

3 handed over to the Registrar. Three, the Registrar marks the document for

4 identification, giving it an MFI number, and signs it. Four, the

5 Registrar will then keep the document for a while, she'll make a copy of

6 the marked original. That copy of the marked original will stay with the

7 Registry. Five, the marked original will be returned to the party that

8 has used the document.

9 A similar procedure is valid as far as videos that are shown are

10 concerned, if they are not tendered into evidence.

11 Then I come to the second category that are documents, objects,

12 videos, et cetera that are tendered in evidence by one of the parties.

13 Pre-numbering by the party on the document concerned is required. So that

14 was rule number 1. Number 2, the intention to tender into evidence the

15 document or video or whatever object should be indicated upon the first

16 use of the document, video, or other object during trial. Three, the

17 other party can then raise immediately any objection, so already upon this

18 indication. If no objection is raised, and that's number 4, the document,

19 video, object, will be tendered into evidence at the end of the

20 examination of the witness by the party. And if it is admitted into

21 evidence, it is given an exhibit number, which will be the number given by

22 the party but then preceded by either a P, for Prosecution, or a D, for

23 Defence.

24 Once the document is admitted into evidence, we will call them

25 exhibits. So until that moment, they are just documents, documents not to

Page 962

1 be tendered into evidence, or documents just to be identified. But once

2 they are admitted in evidence, they will be referred to as exhibits, and

3 then the number given to it by the Registry.

4 I now come to documents that bear any markings on them, markings

5 made by a witness. If during examination-in-chief the witness has put any

6 markings on a document, first the blank document should be tendered into

7 evidence as well as the marked document. It is suggested to the parties

8 not to tender the marked document in evidence until cross-examination is

9 concluded. If different colours for marking are used during

10 examination-in-chief and during cross-examination - we started yesterday

11 with red for the Prosecution and black for the Defence - we limit the

12 number of documents that will become exhibits, especially yesterday with

13 the maps. I think we all experienced that reducing the number of maps as

14 exhibits would not be bad. So that is a suggestion to the parties not to

15 tender them into evidence. And of course, the other party is always free

16 that if we say we cannot work in whatever way with this map, they always

17 can tender their own maps in evidence. But it would be highly appreciated

18 if the parties could at least compromise on what map is to be used,

19 otherwise, we get really confused.

20 I now come to what happens once a document has become an exhibit.

21 Whenever a document has become an exhibit, the parties are supposed to put

22 the P, for Prosecution, or the D, for Defence, and the numbers on the

23 copies they have been provided with already. But if a document has been

24 marked by a witness, copies of the exhibit, so that's the marked exhibit,

25 will have to be provided to the parties. The Registry will take care of

Page 963

1 that. If the parties want to have these copies on short notice, this will

2 only be possible if the exhibits will be copied by the Office of the

3 Prosecutor. This would mean that the chain of custody for which the

4 Registry is responsible has to be broken for a short period of time and

5 merely for reproduction. I invite the Defence to agree with such a short

6 break. If the Defence would not agree, of course, it's entirely up to you

7 to make up your mind. If the Defence does not agree, it might cause

8 considerable delays in receiving the copies of the marked documents.

9 I add to that that whether the original that will be given back to

10 the Registrar after having been reproduced by the Office of the

11 Prosecutor, whether any changes as far as the markings are concerned can

12 be seen. It is always possible to verify whether these are still the

13 original markings or whether anything has been changed by watching the

14 trial video in which the marking of the document as such is shown. So

15 this Chamber thinks that there is hardly any risk that any document would

16 be changed while being reproduced by the Office of the Prosecutor. But I

17 leave it up to the Defence on whether they will agree with this

18 procedure. And I indicated how it is possible to verify that no changes

19 are made.

20 The exhibits that finally stay with the Registry are always there

21 for inspection upon request by the parties. This is the order for

22 documents we decided upon, apart from this specific procedure for

23 reproduction in order to speed up the return of the exhibits, the marked

24 exhibits, to the parties. I would like to hear either now or on short

25 notice from the Defence whether they would agree with this short break in

Page 964

1 the chain of custody for these marked exhibits.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has

3 listened carefully to what you have just set out. And with regard to

4 documents listed as exhibit, when it comes to maps, the Defence would like

5 to make a suggestion, if it may. As evidence by the Prosecution, the

6 black and white map of Sarajevo was introduced in the scale of 1 to

7 12.000, and after that, a map with markings which the witness made in

8 response to questions from the Prosecution, and afterwards, the Defence

9 was allowed to utilize that map, and the Defence will be tendering the map

10 as an exhibit. I should like to suggest that the Prosecution and Defence

11 in future use this same map when witnesses are being examined, and the

12 Defence would like to request that a clear copy of this one map be handed

13 to the Defence as well so as to coordinate our effort and that we use the

14 same map for the examination of witnesses.

15 When examination of the witness is over, the Defence accepts your

16 suggestion that a copy of that map which has been tendered into evidence

17 as an exhibit be copied, and that one copy be placed with the Defence and

18 the other with the Prosecution.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that you also accept that there

20 will be a short break of the chain of custody. And this, of course, is

21 only valid for the exhibits of the Prosecution because all the exhibits

22 the Defence will tender, if there are any markings on it, they will be

23 reproduced by the Registry. So it's only just -- so the chain of custody

24 will not be broken if it concerns exhibits with a D on it, Defence

25 exhibits.

Page 965

1 As far as I understand, parties do agree that usually we'll use

2 the map that has been -- the blank map that has been tendered into

3 evidence. You also agree that during examination-in-chief and during

4 cross-examination, they may be marked with different colours, and then

5 finally the party who called the witness tender the map marked as it is

6 into evidence.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. With the

8 comment that I made, that the map with the markings of positions where the

9 witness indicated certain positions in response to questions from the

10 cross-examination, the Defence will tender into evidence as well. I think

11 we agree on that point. So we'll be using one and the same map all the

12 time, a copy of this one map which the Prosecution and the Defence will

13 have.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And as far as Mr. Kovac is concerned, the map will be

15 tendered twice in evidence, once with the red markings and once with the

16 black markings, and for the future they will be tendered only one time in

17 evidence with both colour of markings on it. Thank you very much. I'm

18 quite glad we could agree on that.

19 Then I would invite to the Defence to give a response to the

20 suggestion that has been made by the Prosecution yesterday. I see it was

21 at 10 minutes past 4.00, but I'm not quite sure whether the time is

22 correct.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is correct,

24 Mr. President. I thank the Chamber for according us this opportunity.

25 The Trial Chamber could have seen through the testimony of the witness

Page 966












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Page 967

1 yesterday to what point it is important to be able to note what the

2 attitudes of witnesses are, especially when this begins by asking you

3 whether -- because he began by asking you whether he was obliged to answer

4 questions put to him by the Defence. This led us to think that it was not

5 right to follow the oral motion formulated by the Prosecution simply

6 because we believe that your Trial Chamber must at all times be able to

7 appreciate the manner in which testimony is given, as well as the

8 contents. So the form and the contents. And taking the example of

9 yesterday's witness, at one point he contradicted himself, and we have a

10 point to make with respect to that.

11 The witness said that what he had said previously during the

12 examination-in-chief was not what he actually meant but was the result

13 of a mistake in the interpretation or translation. I think at this

14 stage, it would be useful for the Chamber to hear the tapes played again,

15 and we can verify to see what the answer was, whether it was really a

16 different answer or an error in interpretation.

17 And as to basics, there will be other testimonies where the

18 Defence and the Trial Chamber would like to see how witnesses comport

19 themselves, in not only what they say, because -- and we have a negative

20 answer to the proposal made by the Prosecution yesterday at around 1600

21 hours. Thank you for your attention.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I may invite the

23 parties to continue whatever communications as how to speed up the trial

24 without losing any of the rights or any of the aspects that the party

25 thinks of as important for the case. But I can imagine that on some

Page 968

1 issues, that at least perhaps on a few more issues, that some compromise

2 would be possible. For example, yesterday, we went through a lot of areas

3 of the town again, and the witness was asked a couple of times, what is

4 this area, what's that area? I think if you would compromise on what

5 areas there are and where they are on this map, that would, perhaps, speed

6 up the questioning of the witness.

7 But I leave it to the parties, but I invite them to continue to

8 communicate whatever might be useful to make this trial as efficient as

9 possible.

10 Then -- yes, Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might I clarify one of the

12 points that you had set out in relation to the tendering of proposed

13 exhibits, and that is point 2. I think you said, Mr. President, that the

14 party who intends to tender a document should indicate that at the first

15 time that it is put to the witness. But if I could explain my concern by

16 way of example, if a witness was being examined in chief and shown a

17 document, as the directions given by you presently read, as I understand

18 it, that would be the point at which the counsel would indicate to the

19 Trial Chamber that it is their intention to tender that document. But of

20 course, at that point, there may be no proper basis to tender it. That

21 would depend in most cases upon what answers the witness gave in relation

22 to the document.

23 I assume that you have in mind, Mr. President, that the

24 time for making submissions both for and against the tender are after

25 those relevant questions have been asked of the witness, that is, at a

Page 969

1 point in time that the examining counsel is of the view that the document

2 in this example has been shown to have sufficient probative value in order

3 for it to be tendered. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Of course, that's also the

5 reason why I used the word "intends" to tender. Of course, the

6 development of the examination of the witness may be such that finally,

7 the document loses all its relevance. But one of the reasons why I

8 proposed this is that if the other party, and I expect the parties to

9 communicate to each other prior to the examination of the witness of what

10 documents they intend to use -- I'm not saying to tender into evidence,

11 but what documents they are going to use during the examination of a

12 witness so the other party can see, whether, for example, it's a forgery

13 or not so that they can make the kind of objections that you can make at

14 this moment. And then of course after the examination of the witnesses,

15 we'll see whether there's still probative value, whether it's relevant or

16 not, and so then we come to these kind of issues.

17 But I would try to avoid any situation where a witness is

18 confronted with a document which the other party thinks to be a forgery so

19 that at least there's an opportunity at that moment to comment on that.

20 It's a very practical solution, and I do understand that the intention

21 might change during the examination of the witness.

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you would like to comment on that?

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I just wish to indicate to

24 the Chamber that the Defence is in agreement with this but that there are

25 problems, that is to say, to see what the Prosecution -- how these

Page 970

1 problems can be treated in order to reduce the number of problems and cut

2 down the number of exhibits. Thank you for your attention, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. We spend 20 to 25

4 minutes on the issue. I hope it will save us a lot of time in the future.

5 It's now, Ms. Pilipovic, you have the -- you may proceed now,

6 after the witness Kovac has been brought in, with the cross-examination of

7 Mr. Kovac.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one

9 point, I'm sorry. The Defence needs to finalize a document, and the

10 Defence would like to know when we will have the break because depending

11 on that, and in order to respect the time limit, I may need to be absent,

12 and I would prefer to do so before the witness is heard, if that will not

13 disturb the Chamber.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to continue, as a matter of fact, and I

15 think the break will be as usual at a quarter to 4.00, since Ms. Pilipovic

16 indicated yesterday that she would need one more hour. That would be

17 approximately at the end of the cross-examination of the witness, and

18 perhaps you can then do whatever you need to do during the break.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, you can bring in the witness.

21 [The witness entered court]


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Kovac.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

Page 971

1 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me and can you understand me?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I may remind you that you are still bound

4 by the solemn declaration that you made the day before yesterday.

5 Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kovac, good afternoon.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. In the course of the cross-examination yesterday, we stopped when

11 you were discussing Rajlovac.

12 So could I ask the usher for his assistance

13 to show the witness the map that we were using yesterday.

14 Can we proceed, Mr. Kovac?

15 A. Yes, I'm ready now.

16 Q. Mr. Kovac, you showed us where Rajlovac is. Could you now make a

17 circle around it and mark it with a letter "R."

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. You told us yesterday that Brijesce Brdo and Grbavica were under

20 the control of the BH army?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who had control over Rajlovac?

23 A. Rajlovac was under the control of the forces of the Bosnian Serbs.

24 Q. Could you draw the separation line between the two warring parties

25 in this area, between Rajlovac and Sokolje --

Page 972

1 A. No, I can't do that because I wasn't familiar with that area.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. BLAXILL: We haven't established that he has any knowledge of

4 this particular line that is being questioned about. With respect, I

5 think my learned friend should establish that the witness has any

6 foundation of knowledge upon which to then perform the act which she is

7 asked to perform.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you like to answer on the first

9 of the two issues raised by the Prosecution. The first is that you

10 indicated no time during which the separation line could be there, while

11 questioning. The second one is that the witness has indicated several

12 times that he has no knowledge of the exact situation of separation lines.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand the

14 objection of my learned friends opposite. The witness has marked

15 Rajlovac upon my request. If I have to indicate the time, I am referring

16 to every time I put a question to the witness, I can repeat that I am

17 referring to the period 1992, 1993, 1994. That is while the conflict in

18 Sarajevo was ongoing. The witness, in answer to my question, said he

19 didn't know, and I said thank you.

20 MR. BLAXILL: With respect, I have to raise one further thing. My

21 learned friend has made reference to 1992 in its entirety. I think she

22 should specify precisely when in 1992. It has already been indicated in

23 evidence that lines did change, so we must have a more precise indication

24 of time if any particular thing is going to be marked on a map as being

25 the extant position.

Page 973

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We are talking

3 about the relevant period for which General Galic stands accused, that is,

4 from September 1992 to August 1994.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Is that clear enough for the Prosecution, September

6 1992?

7 MR. BLAXILL: There are only the two observations I would make on

8 that, Your Honours. Firstly, that if the witness is to be asked to place

9 something permanently on a map, we should know clearly whether that was a

10 permanent situation throughout the period. The period we now understand

11 on record is September 1992 to August 1994. However, there may have been

12 changes, and it should be made clear, I think, with respect to my learned

13 friend's questioning as to precisely what point, if there are any areas

14 where such features changed.

15 The second one I would submit goes back to the one I mentioned

16 already, there should be foundational questions to establish whether or

17 not the witness in question has adequate knowledge to be requested to

18 mark a map with something which will then go on record as if he had spoken

19 it. And clearly, simply a line on a map does not show whether it has been

20 qualified by an absence or a presence of true knowledge for making that

21 mark. Those are my only observations, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill. As far as your first remark

23 is concerned, I would say that the witness has testified that he can't

24 draw the line, it's useless at this moment to discuss any further what

25 period of time this line would cover. But perhaps for the future,

Page 974












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Page 975

1 Ms. Pilipovic, the Prosecution would like to have it as precise as

2 possible in order to avoid any misunderstanding.

3 As far as the second issue is concerned, may I suggest to you --

4 let me first clarify the suggestion I will make to you. I don't know what

5 you want to establish, whether the precise position of the separation

6 lines, if that is your intention, then perhaps a general answer just a

7 suggestion could be whether the witness has any specific knowledge on the

8 separation line and perhaps where he has knowledge -- to what extent he

9 has knowledge of that. If it is your intention to establish whether the

10 witness has any knowledge of separation lines, perhaps this could also be

11 asked to the witness in a more general way. These are just suggestions in

12 order to -- in order to lose no time on issues that can be clarified

13 quicker. Thank you.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence will

15 respond to the issues raised by my learned friend. Regarding the

16 positions, the question was as to whether the lines had changed. The

17 position of my learned friends is that the lines were static throughout

18 the conflict. Secondly, in answer to my question whether he had been

19 interviewed by the investigators on the 3rd of October, 2000, the witness

20 said he had. I showed him yesterday a part of his statement when he said

21 that the Civil Defence was informed through the defence ministry about the

22 positions of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This statement by the

23 witness prompted the Defence to put such questions to the witness as he,

24 himself, said that through the Civil Defence, he had information about

25 positions.

Page 976

1 Now, to what extent and in what area he was informed about, he

2 will tell us. In answer to my latest question, he said that in this area,

3 he was not informed. He had no knowledge. Also, by putting these

4 questions to the witness, the Defence would like, in view of the position

5 the witness had throughout the duration of the conflict, to check the

6 credibility of this witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. I should like to ask the witness, if he could, to look in the

10 south-westerly direction on the map, and to mark for us what part of town

11 that is, what is the name of this district of Sarajevo?

12 A. I'm afraid I can't orientate myself. What part of you referring

13 to?

14 Q. South-West in relation to Rajlovac. Go down the map. Tell us if

15 not.

16 A. You mean this area here?

17 Q. Further down. Or let me put it this way, do you know where Ilidza

18 is, the district of Ilidza? Yes, of course. If you can, will you please

19 mark it and put the letter "I."

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether during the conflict, from

22 September 1992 until August 1994, who controlled Ilidza?

23 A. Ilidza was under the control of the forces of the Bosnian Serbs.

24 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to when the conflict broke out in

25 Ilidza?

Page 977

1 A. Probably at the beginning of 1992. I think it was in May 1992.

2 Q. Do you know who the parties in conflict were?

3 A. The army and the forces of the Bosnian Serbs, the army of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the forces of the Bosnian Serbs.

5 Q. Will you -- would you agree with me that throughout the duration

6 of the conflict in Sarajevo, separation lines existed, had been

7 established?

8 A. Not at the beginning.

9 Q. In your view, when were those lines established?

10 A. I think in the middle of 1992, in my opinion, according to

11 information I have.

12 Q. When you say the middle of the year, what do you mean?

13 A. I mean May, June.

14 Q. Would you agree with me that a part of Sarajevo was under the

15 control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. I don't know what part you're referring to.

17 Q. Well, you have just marked for us the parts of Sarajevo that were

18 under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 A. Most of Sarajevo was under the control of the army of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 Q. Would you agree with me that within Sarajevo, the municipalities

22 of Centar, Stari Grad, Novi Grad, that there were separation lines there,

23 too?

24 A. Yes. Separation lines remained in the territory of those

25 municipalities.

Page 978

1 Q. Would you agree with me that Sarajevo was a divided city?

2 A. To a smaller extent, it was divided.

3 Q. Would you agree with me that between these two armies, as we have

4 been referring to them, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army of

5 Republika Srpska, that there was constant fighting on a daily basis along

6 the separation lines?

7 A. I wouldn't agree that there was fighting on a daily basis.

8 Q. But was there any fighting?

9 A. Yes, there was fighting.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with respect to the

11 map, the witness -- the Defence has no further questions, and we would

12 like to suggest that the maps, together with the markings made by Mr.

13 Kovac, be tendered into evidence as Defence exhibits.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no objections, this map, this marked

15 map with the black marks on it, is admitted into evidence. And it will

16 bear what number, Madam Registrar?


18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Kovac, can you tell us in your opinion when the conflict

20 started in Sarajevo?

21 A. I don't know what you mean by "conflict."

22 Q. Do you have knowledge as to when the conflict at the police school

23 in Vrace occurred?

24 A. I know about that conflict, but I don't know the exact date.

25 Q. Could you tell us which month it was?

Page 979

1 A. I just know that it was in the first half of 1992.

2 Q. Can you tell us when an immediate threat of war was proclaimed by

3 the Presidency?

4 A. I think it was at the beginning of May, or rather the end of

5 April, 1992. I think that is when it was proclaimed.

6 Q. Let me refresh your memory. Was it on the 5th of April, 1992?

7 A. No, I think it wasn't on that date.

8 Q. Since you told us that you do have knowledge about the conflict at

9 the police school in Vrace, do you know that that was when the police

10 force was divided on an ethnic basis?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer, please.

12 Q. Do you know what happened on the 1st of March, 1992 at Bas

13 Carsija?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. In March and April 1992 and somewhat later, do you know that the

16 population was moving out of Sarajevo?

17 A. In March and April?

18 Q. Yes. And May.

19 A. No. In May, yes.

20 Q. When in May did the population start to move out of Sarajevo?

21 When in May, the first half of May or the second half of May?

22 A. If I remember correctly, I think it was the first half of May when

23 the operations started. That is when the war started in terms of its

24 intensity.

25 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please ask again your

Page 980

1 question which appears on page 17, line 24, because interpreter couldn't

2 get the answer.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Do you know that at the Vrace police school, there was a conflict,

5 and that the police force was divided on ethnic lines?

6 A. Should I answer that question?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. In answer to your question, I learned about it from the media.

9 That's what I said. I learned about it through the media.

10 Q. Did you learn from the media that on the 1st of March, 1992, a

11 civilian was killed at Bas Carsija who was in a wedding group, and do you

12 know that he was killed by Ramiz Dalalic as was reported by the media?

13 A. I remember that event and I learned about it from the media

14 again.

15 Q. Were barricades put up then?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You told us that the conflict broke out in May. Between whom in

18 May did the conflict break out?

19 A. Well, probably between the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

20 forces of the Bosnian Serbs.

21 Q. When was the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina formed officially? Do you

22 know that?

23 A. I don't have specific knowledge about it, but I can say that it

24 was sometime at the end of April 1992. I just know that before that,

25 there was the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 981












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Page 982

1 Q. Apart from the Territorial Defence, which other units joined to

2 form the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Do you know that?

3 A. Units of the HVO, I think, some units.

4 Q. You talked to us yesterday about units that had their leaders such

5 as Juka Prazina, Musan Topalovic. Do you know that those units also

6 became part of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. Probably they did, but I have no specific knowledge about that.

8 Q. Do you know that the military police also became part of the army

9 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. Probably, they did.

11 Q. In view of the fact that you lived at Alipasino Polje, do you know

12 that the commander of the military police at Dobrinja was Kerim

13 Loncarevic, known as "Doctor"?

14 A. I had learned about Kerim Loncarevic as commander, but I learned

15 through the media. But I didn't know where he was located nor which unit

16 he was the commander.

17 Q. When did you learn that from the media?

18 A. In the first half of 1992.

19 Q. When did the planning for the activities of the Civil Defence --

20 when was it made in view of the situation that was in force?

21 A. Plans for the activities of the Civil Defence were made on the

22 basis of an assessment of the situation, that is, an assessment of the

23 situation that existed with respect to the situation and the conditions of

24 life of the civilian population.

25 Q. At the level of the Civil Defence staff, the one you were in, was

Page 983

1 there a commander of the Civil Defence?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was his rank? Was he commander of the Civil Defence of

4 Sarajevo or did you have commanders by municipalities?

5 A. There were staffs by municipalities, that is, commanders at the

6 level of municipalities.

7 Q. You told us that through your commissioners, you distributed

8 humanitarian aid to the population?

9 A. Yes. And we informed them about humanitarian aid.

10 Q. Who made out the lists?

11 A. You mean of the population?

12 Q. Yes, of the persons, the civilians that were going to receive

13 humanitarian aid.

14 A. The lists were made by Civil Defence commissioners by buildings

15 and neighbourhoods.

16 Q. Throughout the time you held that position, and I'm referring to

17 the period from April 1992 until the end of the conflict in Sarajevo, were

18 you wearing a uniform, the kind you described yesterday?

19 A. Not all the time.

20 Q. When did you start wearing it?

21 A. I wore it at the beginning of the war, and then for a while I wore

22 civilian clothes because the uniform had got worn out.

23 Q. What about other members of Civil Defence? Did they also wear

24 uniforms?

25 A. Yes, they wore the uniforms left over from the former Civil

Page 984

1 Defence, if I can put it that way, the Civil Defence that was operational

2 before the war. These were uniforms that people held at home. In fact,

3 they were blue overalls with the symbol of the Civil Defence on them.

4 Q. Were they suits or overalls?

5 A. They were suits, I'm sorry.

6 Q. Did members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina wear such uniforms?

7 A. No.

8 Q. While performing your duties as head of the Civil Defence staff

9 for Novi Grad, did you have any discussions with the civilians, with the

10 population? Did they come to see you asking for assistance, to complain

11 about shortages of water, electricity and so on?

12 A. Yes, there were such conversations, but we would also frequently

13 tour the local communities. And through our commissioners, we would be

14 briefed on problems locally.

15 Q. Through your commissioners, did you personally have information

16 from the inhabitants to the effect that their family members were being

17 arrested and taken in an unknown direction?

18 A. No, I did not receive any such information.

19 Q. You told us that the distribution of humanitarian aid was

20 conducted at certain localities, and that those spots or points were

21 changed from time to time. Do you happen to know that humanitarian aid

22 was distributed to civilians at the separation line?

23 A. No. I have no knowledge of that kind. That would have been too

24 dangerous.

25 Q. Did you know that at Dobrinja and Alipasino Polje, and more

Page 985

1 specifically, on the square which was the Zavnobih square, whether there

2 were apartment buildings acting as prisons where Serbs were imprisoned?

3 A. No, I had no information to that effect.

4 Q. Did you know that at Alipasino Polje, on that particular square,

5 there was a cafe called the Borsalino cafe?

6 A. Before the war, yes, the Borsalino coffee bar did exist in

7 Alipasino Polje settlement.

8 Q. Was the cafe working during the war?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Do you happen to know with respect to your municipality how many

11 in percentages were Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, the percentages for the

12 population?

13 A. Are you referring to before the war?

14 Q. Yes. Before the war, during the war, and after the war, if you

15 can tell us, please.

16 A. Before the war -- I'm giving you rough figures. I can't give you

17 the exact figures. I don't have them. But roughly speaking, before the

18 war, there were approximately 65 percent Bosniaks, 25 percent Serbs, and

19 approximately 8 to 10 percent were Croats and others. A small negligible

20 percentage of miscellaneous. That would be my assessment.

21 Q. How about after the war?

22 A. After the war, that figure was reduced. When I say reduced, I

23 mean that the number of Bosniaks increased, in fact, whereas the number of

24 Serbs decreased, and the number of Croats decreased somewhat as well. I

25 think that today in the Novi Grad municipality, there are approximately

Page 986

1 15 percent Serbs and approximately 5 to 6 percent Croats, and the rest

2 would be various, depending on how they declared themselves.

3 Q. Your Civil Defence staffs, did they have units?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Which units were they?

6 A. They were Civil Defence units of a general purpose.

7 Q. Were they specialised units?

8 A. Not in the local communities, no.

9 Q. And at the level of the municipality?

10 A. There was a special unit for protection against fire.

11 Q. And the specialised unit against fire, what was the national

12 composition of that unit?

13 A. I think that there were approximately 70 percent Bosniaks,

14 approximately 25 percent were Serbs, and 5 percent were Croats.

15 Q. How did you come by those figures, on the basis of what data?

16 A. Well, it is my free assessment on the basis of the people I knew,

17 although we would never strictly divide people up according to their

18 ethnic group.

19 Q. You told us that Sarajevo had the problem of sniping.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were sniper incidents reported to you personally?

22 A. No, because that doesn't come under our competencies and

23 obligations.

24 Q. Did you happen to know that on the high-rise buildings in the old

25 part of town and in the centre of town of the city of Sarajevo, like the

Page 987

1 Energoinvest building, the executive council building, the Momo & Uzeir

2 building, and the electricity board building, that there were sniper nests

3 at the top of these buildings and that they were snipers belonging to the

4 Muslim army? Do you know that?

5 A. No, I did not know that.

6 Q. You spoke to us about the problem of shelling in Sarajevo

7 yesterday.

8 A. May I correct something with respect to the Muslim army that you

9 asked a moment ago? It was not the Muslim army. It was the army of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Because when you say "Muslim," then that determines

11 the composition of that army.

12 Q. You noticed that in my questions, I usually referred to it as the

13 BH army.

14 Could you tell me something about the problem of shelling? When

15 did the shelling occur in the course of the day or night, give us a time?

16 A. Well it's difficult to say when and determine the time. Sometime

17 the shellings would start early on at dawn, at daybreak, and would go on

18 until 12.00 noon. There would be a lull until 3.00 or 4.00, and then the

19 shelling would continue and would go on until 10.00 p.m. or maybe 11.00

20 p.m.

21 Q. Is it possible to distinguish between the intensity of the

22 shelling during the day and its intensity at night?

23 A. Well, it's difficult to note any difference. If the shelling

24 started at night, then it would go on until the early morning hours. And

25 quite certainly, according to physical laws, sounds are much stronger --

Page 988












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Page 989

1 the sounds of shelling is much stronger during the night, much louder. So

2 that the shelling in the course of the night caused greater unrest and

3 fear in town, although the people were in shelters.

4 Q. You told us yesterday that there was frequent shelling, and you

5 said that it would be usually early in the morning and go on the whole

6 day, or that it would begin in early evening and go on throughout the

7 night.

8 A. There were periods like that as well.

9 Q. Can you tell us, when you hear shelling in the course of the

10 night, could you tell who was doing the shelling?

11 A. Well, you could hear the shots being fired because at night,

12 especially after midnight, it was generally quiet. That is a natural law,

13 I suppose, that it's quieter at night. And then you could hear the

14 shooting coming from the surrounding hills first, which broke this

15 silence, especially from Trebevic. And after that, judging by the sounds

16 of the shells, you could tell which settlement was being targeted or where

17 the targeting -- the shooting was coming from. If you were at the

18 positions at Alipasino Polje, for example, when the shelling was going on,

19 you could hear very well the shooting of -- shells being shot from guns

20 and artillery pieces from the Trebevic locality. Three to four seconds

21 later, you could hear the whiz-whiz of a shell, which would then explode

22 somewhere nearby. It would have its destructive power several instances

23 later.

24 May I just add, what is important here to note is that the

25 calibres were stronger, large calibres, and they were -- they reverberated

Page 990

1 in the settlement. When the shell hit an object, the high-rise buildings

2 and apartment buildings would tremble and shake, and the people who were

3 living in those buildings at the time were never sure that they would

4 survive.

5 Q. Looking at the geographic position of Sarajevo, and you said the

6 surrounding hills, does Sarajevo's geographic position allow you to

7 determine what direction the shell is coming from?

8 A. From certain locations, yes, because some artillery weapons were

9 placed above the town itself on the hills surrounding the city, whereas

10 the artillery pieces that were used for indirect targeting were behind the

11 hills surrounding the city.

12 Q. You were very precise and specific in answering that question.

13 Where do you get that knowledge from, from the media, or did you visit

14 those positions?

15 A. No, this is knowledge I obtained from people who were

16 professionals in that field. And if you call them as witnesses, I'm sure

17 they will be able to tell this august Trial Chamber about what happened in

18 much greater detail.

19 Q. Did you personally hear the sound of a shell or just the

20 explosion?

21 A. Personally, during -- from 1992 to 1994, I heard the whizzing by

22 of shells, and it is a very specific sound that instills fear. It is a

23 very frightening sound.

24 Q. You said that you received humanitarian aid through humanitarian

25 organisations.

Page 991

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which humanitarian organisations did you cooperate with on the

3 territory of your municipality?

4 A. There was a system by which humanitarian aid was brought in and

5 it went via the municipal staff and was dispatched to the staffs of the

6 Civil Defence organisation in the local communities. Because at the level

7 of the municipal staff and headquarters, we organised the vehicles for

8 transporting the aid and the people to do it, and people directly drove

9 the humanitarian aid to the different local communities and distributed

10 it.

11 Q. On your own municipality, were there organisations which produced

12 food or clothing, manufactured clothing, to supply the civilian population

13 with?

14 A. I mentioned the sewing workshops that we set up to help the

15 population, the tailoring establishments to supply the population with

16 clothes. And we received food exclusively through the UNHCR.

17 Q. You said that the tailoring workshops that were set up sewed

18 clothing. Did they also sew uniforms for the soldiers of the BH army?

19 A. No.

20 Q. As you cooperated with the headquarters of the BH army, could you

21 tell us where those headquarters were located?

22 A. I don't know what area you have in mind. For what area and what

23 level of organisation do you mean?

24 Q. I mean at the level of the brigades and at the level of corps, and

25 the main staff as well.

Page 992

1 A. We maintained contacts through the municipal staff and

2 headquarters, and then at the level of the president of the municipality,

3 if it was necessary to meet and discuss matters of general importance for

4 the defence of the town.

5 Q. What was the main body that you coordinated with which was in

6 charge of the defence of the town, that you had meetings with?

7 A. As far as the defence of the town was concerned, the military

8 body, the main military body, and that was the 1st Corps, the 1st Corps of

9 the BH army. As far as our relationship with the corps was concerned, it

10 went via the municipal staff for Civil Defence and its headquarters.

11 Q. When was the general mobilisation proclaimed?

12 A. Well, if I remember correctly, it was sometime at the end of April

13 and beginning of May 1992.

14 Q. At the level of the municipalities and the town, were crisis

15 staffs or war staffs set up?

16 A. You're asking about staffs? No, there were [Realtime transcript

17 read in error "presidents"] presidencies. I remember that presidencies

18 existed.

19 Q. As you said that you had contact with the 1st Corps of the army of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina as the highest military body and authority in Sarajevo,

21 what about your municipality, what centre did you have contacts with?

22 A. We didn't contact any military centre because no military existed

23 for the municipality level.

24 MR. BLAXILL: Could I interrupt for a second. I think there is a

25 mistranscript at line 8 of this page 29. I think the response of the

Page 993

1 witness is "presidencies," as opposed to "presidents."

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I noted that as well. I thought it would be

3 corrected overnight. I think Ms. Pilipovic will also agree that it was

4 "presidencies" instead of "presidents."

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Do you know which --

6 MR. BLAXILL: I'm sorry to do it again. There is a gap as well, I

7 see, line 7 of the transcript of this page, there is an answer given which

8 was a question, and then there is a "Q" followed by a blank. It comes

9 just before the answer, "No, there were presidents." So we have a problem

10 there as well.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As far as I remember, the witness continued his

12 answering, although Ms. Pilipovic tried to formulate her next question.

13 But if necessary, I think we could hear the audiotape later on. I don't

14 think it will create great misunderstandings if we continue. Please

15 proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. My question was: Do you happen to know what artillery pieces the

18 corps of the BH army had?

19 A. No.

20 Q. During the conflict from September 1992 and in 1993, did you

21 happen to see or notice a tank that was in the tunnel at the Ciglana

22 settlement?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How in your municipality did you regulate the question of repairs

25 for the water supply system and power supply system?

Page 994

1 A. There were services from the water supply service and the power

2 supply service, and they were in charge of each municipality. Actually,

3 there were professional men who, in cooperation with the local Civil

4 Defence units, dealt with any breakdowns in the system. And the members

5 of the Civil Defence would help them physically in putting the matter

6 right, whereas these professionals would actually undertake the repair

7 work.

8 Q. What about the transformer stations which supplied your

9 municipality with electricity? Where were they located? In what part of

10 town?

11 A. Well, there were a number of transformer stations. Every

12 settlement had its own transformer station, and in one settlement, there

13 would even be several transformer stations.

14 Q. And you were successful in dealing with the breakdowns of the

15 system?

16 A. Well, we cooperated with professional teams. And when there was

17 electricity -- because there were frequent power cuts, and for some

18 periods, the town would be left without any electricity at all for longer

19 periods.

20 Q. What about gas? Did you have gas?

21 A. In one period, yes.

22 Q. And when was that?

23 A. I think that was until the beginning of the winter of 1992.

24 Q. And after that, there was no more gas?

25 A. Well, it would come and go. Mostly we didn't have any gas. I

Page 995












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Page 996

1 would say that there was an absence of gas, rather than not.

2 Q. As the head of Civil Defence, do you happen to know that the

3 population of Sarajevo were not able to leave the town without a permit

4 authorizing them to do so?

5 A. No, no, I don't know about that. That was probably under the

6 competence of some other service or organ.

7 Q. But do you know that such services existed, or rather, how could

8 people leave town? What did they need if they wanted to leave town?

9 A. I really don't know about that.

10 Q. As you are the head of the Civil Defence staff for the Sarajevo

11 canton at present, could you tell us: In the canton of Sarajevo, if you

12 happen to have the information, how many Serbs are there, how many Muslims

13 or Bosniaks, and how many Croats, if you can answer that, please?

14 A. Before I answer your question, I should like to clarify the

15 situation for the Trial Chamber. I think that during the war, especially

16 at the beginning of the war, there was an exodus of Serbs from Sarajevo.

17 But I have to state that a large number of people of Serb ethnicity also

18 stayed on in Sarajevo. Many left, but many stayed. Those who left, left,

19 I think, for a number of reasons. Some were asked to leave and to join

20 those who did not agree with the then policy and politics. Others left

21 from fear; they were afraid of the war. And others stayed on, together

22 with the other ethnic groups and people to bear the burden of war.

23 All of us together esteem very highly of those people who stayed

24 on. To answer your question, I have to explain to the Trial Chamber how

25 the situation was in general, which had an effect and determined the

Page 997

1 number of Serbs who stayed, the present figures. So on the basis of these

2 facts and figures, in order to answer the question I have just been asked

3 and to give it legal strength in the determination of certain facts, the

4 essential thing is to see the reason for the Serbs leaving Sarajevo during

5 the war, why they left.

6 I remember a programme at the beginning of the war where the

7 leaders of the Bosnian Serbs --

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was a

9 very simple one. All I asked him was whether the witness knows how many

10 Serbs are now living in Sarajevo, and Bosniaks, Muslims, Croats. That was

11 all.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, the question was rather limited, and you

13 give a lot of explanation, perhaps, on what finally will be your answer.

14 But perhaps if you would restrict yourself to first answering the

15 question. If a further explanation is asked, I'm quite sure that counsel

16 will do so. Thank you.

17 A. I think that at present in the city, if you're thinking of the

18 situation at present, a large number -- well, not a large number, but a

19 substantial number of Serbs are coming back to the city of Sarajevo.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Could you just tell us how many, if you know. If you do not, say

22 you do not know.

23 A. I think the percentage now is between 20 and 25 percent.

24 Q. And one more question: What was -- what purpose did the tunnel

25 serve? What was its function in Sarajevo? And do you know who dug the

Page 998

1 tunnel?

2 A. In order to answer your question, I have to explain some facts to

3 the Trial Chamber.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Before doing so, I'd just like to know from

5 Ms. Pilipovic how much more time she would need for cross-examination, or

6 was is this your last question?

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] This is my last question. I would

8 just like the witness to answer and to tell me when the tunnel was made

9 and whether he knows who took part in digging the tunnel. That's all. So

10 just a very short question, whether he knows it or not.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, would you please answer this question.

12 And whether there are any other questions, we will see then.

13 A. As far as I know, the tunnel was dug sometime at the end of the

14 first half of 1993.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And do you know who did the digging?

17 A. The units whose work obligation it was.

18 Q. What was the national composition of the units doing this work

19 obligation?

20 A. The ethnic affiliation was not a question that was considered.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

22 further questions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just give me one second.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Before having a break, would the Prosecution -- is

Page 999

1 the Prosecution in need of further re-examination, not to start it right

2 away, but just in order to know?

3 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, Your Honour. There is just one small area we

4 would like to address, and I'm sure we will be most brief in so doing. I

5 have about two or three questions all of which require only a short

6 answer. After the break, if you prefer, of course.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I prefer to do it after the break. We will have a

8 break now, if you could please guide the witness out of the courtroom, and

9 bring Mr. Galic out of the courtroom. We'll have a break until 4.15 p.m.

10 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you concluded the cross-examination of

13 Mr. Kovac.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the

15 Defence would have one more question for the witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you say one more, I'll allow that. You may

17 proceed once the witness has been --

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.

20 Mr. Kovac, the Defence has asked to put one more question to you,

21 which was allowed to them.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Kovac, you told us that the tunnel was dug in 1993. Would you

24 just tell us, please, the position of the tunnel and who organised the

25 able-bodied persons who were under work obligation, as you said, to dig

Page 1000

1 that tunnel?

2 A. I really don't know who organised it. It was probably at a higher

3 level.

4 Q. Which level?

5 A. Probably of the state.

6 Q. Was it the military or members of the Civil Defence?

7 A. I'm unable to say.

8 Q. And what was the purpose of digging that tunnel?

9 A. What I can say is that when the tunnel was dug through, there was

10 more food because there was a shortage of food in town. We received

11 humanitarian aid that was limited in quantity.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That was

13 the question that I asked to put to the witness. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic. The Prosecution now has

15 an opportunity to re-examine the witness.

16 MR. BLAXILL: Mr. President, Your Honours, thank you.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

18 Q. I just have a couple of questions that actually go back to the

19 days of your training as a military policeman in compulsory service. I

20 believe you said to my learned friend that there were different

21 types of policemen in time of peace and in time of war. Can you tell us

22 what the differences in the duties were in times of peace or in times of

23 war for military policemen?

24 A. If we're talking about regular military service and how I was

25 trained in the unit as a military policeman, there were peacetime and

Page 1001

1 wartime duties. The peacetime duties were daily duties which were carried

2 out also by the civilian police but it related only to military

3 personnel, that is, to members of the army, ordinary soldiers and

4 officers. If we're talking about wartime duties, the military police was

5 trained to carry out special tasks which could not be carried out by

6 regular soldiers. Their duties were to engage in some smaller scale but

7 specific wartime assignments. It's something like attempts to break into

8 the territory under the control of that army as a group, the elimination

9 of certain military targets, which were specific to that military unit.

10 Those would roughly be the differences.

11 MR. BLAXILL: Excuse me, Your Honours.

12 Q. Now, I believe you agreed, I think, with my learned friend when

13 she put the question that the peacetime duties certainly of military

14 police included patrolling and arresting military personnel for discipline

15 and other matters, criminal matters. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, sir, in accordance with your training, who would give the

18 orders to military police officers to perform an arrest?

19 A. Their superiors.

20 Q. Who would those superiors be? Would they be within the military

21 police or would they be other superiors within the armed forces?

22 A. Depending on the command, whether it was under the brigade or a

23 larger military unit that the military police was in. Within the

24 framework of those military formations, there were security departments,

25 and those orders would be issued by the officers in command of those

Page 1002












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1003

1 departments. In my view, those would be, as far as I understood, on the

2 basis of my military service, were the heads of security who were part of

3 the command. They were members of the command of a particular unit.

4 Q. So when a police or a military officer performed an arrest, to

5 whom was that military police officer ordered to hand over the person that

6 he had arrested?

7 A. All I can say is based on my experience from my military service

8 days, serving in the former Yugoslav people's army. For instance, it

9 depended on the case. Persons were taken into custody to the unit and

10 escorted to units of the former Yugoslav people's army from which they

11 came. For instance, if they had fled from the unit - we had such cases -

12 or if they had committed any criminal offence, then there were military

13 prisons.

14 Q. I see. Now, taking account you've described additional wartime

15 duties, did the military police still perform those discipline,

16 patrolling, and arrest duties in time of war?

17 A. You mean the war in Bosnia?

18 Q. Or in accordance with your training, in a time of war, would

19 military police officers still perform the same duties as they performed

20 in peacetime and then have additional duties that you've described?

21 A. Their duty is to assist, or rather to keep the situation in check

22 in wartime, probably together with all others, to prevent any disorder or

23 anything like that.

24 Q. And would, therefore, military police have the same powers of

25 arrest in accordance with your training, the same powers of arrest in

Page 1004

1 wartime as they would have had in peacetime?

2 A. I don't know the answer to that question. Probably yes.

3 MR. BLAXILL: That actually concludes my re-examination,

4 Your Honours. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Blaxill. One of the Judges

6 will put questions to the witness, Mr. Kovac.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Mr. Kovac, at the beginning of your testimony,

9 you mentioned different types of bullets. We all know that the use of

10 certain types of bullets is forbidden by international law. My question

11 is, do you know whether those forbidden bullets were used by the parties

12 during the war?

13 A. I am unable to say. I don't know. Possibly they were, but I

14 don't know because I had no personal knowledge about that.

15 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Have you heard about, for example, dumdum

16 bullets?

17 A. Yes, I have heard.

18 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Did you use dumdum bullets when you were in

19 your compulsory service?

20 A. We didn't use them, but our superiors in the former Yugoslav

21 People's Army told us about those types of weapons. We studied about them

22 in books, but we didn't use them, nor did -- nor were such bullets used

23 during exercises or target shooting when they were organised.

24 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Elmahdi, do you have any additional questions

Page 1005

1 to put to the witness?

2 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovac, I'm aware of the great

3 burden that you have suffered during the past two days, but I would like,

4 if you could, obtain some information from you regarding three points:

5 The first has to do with the media to which you referred on a number of

6 occasions. You said, "Yes, I learned such and such a thing through the

7 media." Which media were you referring to? Were they the media -- the

8 national media, international media? Could you clarify that point a

9 little for us, please.

10 A. With respect to the media, there were regular programmes on the

11 radio and television when there was electricity. So the TV could be

12 watched when there was electricity, and the radio when the electricity was

13 cut. So these were the regular daily information programmes which, in

14 addition to local news, also carried news reports from CNN and other

15 international broadcasters.

16 Those were the state-controlled media, which, in my view, were up

17 to the standards required for an objective and timely information of the

18 public.

19 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kovac. Another

20 question, if you don't mind: You said, and I quote -- I will do it in

21 English. [In English] "The Land Registry Department took with them part

22 of the documentation and the maps from Sarajevo, and probably it was those

23 maps that they used to be able to ascertain with great precision where

24 these locations were."

25 [Interpretation] My question is the following: For you, this

Page 1006

1 taking of documents and maps, is it something you are sure of based on

2 concrete knowledge, or is it simply your conclusion? Is it a personal

3 opinion that you have? Thank you.

4 A. This conclusion regarding documents which depicted the

5 infrastructural position of various facilities in the municipalities was

6 based on the statements made by people who used to work in the Land

7 Registry Departments of the municipalities within the city.

8 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] So you heard people talking about

9 certain documents being taken; is that right?

10 A. [No interpretation]

11 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And my last question,

12 if you don't mind, you also said - and I quote in English again - [In

13 English]: "Some of the inhabitants of the Novi Grad municipality had left

14 following certain directives."

15 [Interpretation] Who gave those directions and who left?

16 A. The reference is to primarily the departure of the Serb population

17 from the city. And this quotation is based on the fact that at the

18 beginning of the war, the leadership, the political leadership of the

19 Bosnian Serbs had called on the Sarajevan Serbs to come out of the city

20 saying that Sarajevo was not their homeland, and that they would be better

21 off in their native towns and places outside Sarajevo, that they would be

22 more comfortable. This was published in the media, and I think this was

23 at the beginning of the war in the prime-time newscast.

24 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, I've just two small questions for you.

Page 1007

1 You have been talking about a tunnel, not being able to say exactly where

2 it was. Could you say perhaps in more general terms, the tunnel was

3 connecting what to what?

4 A. If one views the position of the tunnel in logical terms, and it

5 went from the neighbourhood of Dobrinja, or rather, C5, towards the

6 neighbourhood of Butmir, so it would be logical to assume that people who

7 were making these assessments as to where a necessary entry and exit point

8 for the city should be made, came to the conclusion that that would be the

9 most suitable location, and the tunnel went beneath the Sarajevo airport.

10 That is where the separation lines probably were more considerable, so

11 that this area, from the security standpoint regarding the movement of

12 people through that tunnel, was safer.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You already answered my second question: underneath

14 what the tunnel was. If there are no more questions from my colleagues, I

15 would like to thank you, Mr. Kovac, from coming from so far in order to

16 answer the questions of the parties and of this Chamber. Thank you very

17 much for coming.

18 Mr. Usher, would you please bring the witness out of the

19 courtroom.

20 [Witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, who is the next witness you're calling?

22 MR. IERACE: Milan Mandilovic.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. I'll ask the usher to bring

24 the witness in.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 1008

1 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Mr. Mandilovic, do you hear me in a

2 language which you understand?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hear you, Mr. President, yes.

4 THE COURT: Mr. Mandilovic, Rule 90(a) requires you, being called

5 as a witness by the Prosecution, to give a solemn declaration in which the

6 text will be handed over to you. And may I invite you to make this solemn

7 declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mandilovic. Mr. Blaxill?

13 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, it will be I, again, with your leave.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed in your examination of the witness.

15 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you.

16 Examined by Mr. Blaxill:

17 Q. Sir, would you be so kind as to give your full name to the

18 Chamber.

19 A. Milan Mandilovic.

20 Q. Could you say, please, where and when you were born?

21 A. On the 16th of June, 1949 in Novi Sad.

22 Q. Can you tell me where Novi Sad is, please.

23 A. Serbia, the autonomous province of Vojvodina.

24 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us very briefly in what

25 profession you are qualified.

Page 1009












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Page 1010

1 A. I'm a doctor, physician, a general practitioner, and a specialist

2 for ear, nose, and throat.

3 Q. And where do you currently practise, Doctor?

4 A. I currently practise in the state hospital or rather, today, it is

5 called the general hospital in Sarajevo.

6 Q. Could you tell us when you moved from Serbia to Sarajevo?

7 A. When I was four years old.

8 Q. After you had qualified in the medical profession, in what context

9 did you practice your profession?

10 A. When I graduated from the faculty of medicine, I did my compulsory

11 medical training in Sarajevo. And after that, I did my military service

12 as a doctor serving in the military hospital in Meljine, which is in the

13 former socialist republic of Montenegro. After that, upon completing my

14 military service, I responded to a competition for posts inside the

15 Yugoslav people's army, and I got the post as general in the Sarajevo

16 Garrison, or rather the Sarajevo Garrison infirmary.

17 Q. And can you say when it was that you started to take up your

18 duties then in the Sarajevo Garrison?

19 A. In August 1978.

20 Q. Thank you. And did the JNA have a military hospital in Sarajevo

21 at that time?

22 A. Yes, it did.

23 Q. And was there a presence of a JNA military hospital right the way

24 up to the beginning of 1992?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 1011

1 Q. And Doctor, we have already heard in this Chamber that in about

2 May 1992, the war started in Sarajevo. What is your -- very briefly, your

3 recollection of what was happening in Sarajevo at that time, at the

4 beginning of May 1992?

5 A. Let me tell you: The situation was difficult in the city of

6 Sarajevo but the difficult situation began earlier on, right at the start

7 of the year 1992. The situation was unstable. There was tension, and

8 there was an era of expectation and uncertainty and insecurity. And that

9 was the situation as of January. It went through February and March, and

10 all this escalated slowly.

11 Q. Was there a time that it became an open conflict of some

12 description?

13 A. Individual conflicts were frequent, particularly in the month of

14 April. But I think as far as I see it, and as far as I remember, they

15 were individual conflicts, and later on, there was a real escalation

16 sometime on the 6th of April, around about the 6th of April. And then

17 tensions grew, the situation came to a head. And in May, there was a

18 substantially different situation, one which spoke absolutely of -- was --

19 a situation of war was manifest, became absolutely manifest at that time.

20 Q. When you say a situation of war became manifest, could you tell me

21 whether that had anything to do with any shelling, artillery shelling?

22 A. Yes, that's right. It did. But artillery shelling of the city

23 during that period of time was far smaller than it was to be later on. I

24 apologise. We're talking about April and the start of May, 1992.

25 Q. I've moved into the month of May 1992. Did this shelling

Page 1012

1 situation persist up to the end of that year?

2 A. Yes, it did. And it escalated.

3 Q. And at the time in May, what was the status of the JNA hospital

4 you were working in? Was it still a military hospital?

5 A. The military hospital had the kind of status that it did up until

6 the 12th or the 14th of May. I can't quite remember from the passage of

7 time what the exact dates were. But the Yugoslav People's Army or the

8 cadres of the Yugoslav people's army, to be more exact, according to their

9 own volition left the hospital. From that time on, the military hospital

10 changed its title, and it became the state hospital.

11 Q. Did it fall under any kind of alternative military control, or did

12 it fall under civilian administration when it changed its status?

13 A. It fell under civilian administration. The management of the

14 hospital was made up of civilians, doctors who had worked in the hospital

15 prior to that and who had stayed on in the hospital, remained there.

16 Q. And in fact, is that what you did, Doctor, stay on?

17 A. Yes, I did. But I wasn't a member of the management.

18 Q. Now, Doctor, if I may, could I take you forward to September of

19 1992 and the winter that went from 1992 to 1993. Now, at that time, what

20 was the situation as regards shelling or any other kind of shooting and

21 any effects it may have had on or around the hospital?

22 A. As time passed, so the situation in town became more complicated

23 in the negative sense. The shelling of the town became more frequent and

24 sniping started as well. And as a direct consequence of that, we saw

25 successively an increasing number of casualties, both from the sniping and

Page 1013

1 from the mortar projectiles and their dispersive effects.

2 Q. Doctor, I would like to ask you more about that later. In the

3 meantime, can you tell us whether in 1992 - this is from September

4 onwards - the hospital buildings themselves suffered any damage from these

5 activities?

6 A. Yes, they did. The hospital building itself was on several

7 occasions directly hit with certain types of projectiles, so that the

8 facade of the hospital, the windows - the glass of the windows - all that

9 was damaged and destroyed, shattered. And that could be seen from the

10 photographs taken of that period. All the hospital floors - and there

11 were 12 of them - were devastated in one way or another.

12 Q. When you speak to the facade of the hospital, in which direction

13 did that facade face? Can you say what areas were in front of it?

14 A. The broader facade of the hospital faced north and south. The

15 narrower sides faced west and east. The southern side, the southern

16 facade of the hospital, was mostly damaged, although damage did exist

17 on the eastern and western facades as well.

18 Later on, after 1992, the facade on the northerly side was also

19 damaged but to a lesser extent.

20 Q. And in towards which areas did the southern side of the hospital

21 face? Can you give us the names of any of the areas facing you?

22 A. The south side of the hospital in general terms faces the reaches

23 of the mountain or rather hill of Trebevic, which is in the immediate

24 vicinity of the town. And we can also mention opposite the hospital is

25 the Jewish cemetery, and a little more westerly, there's another

Page 1014

1 settlement and a small elevation which was called Vrace.

2 Q. Can you tell us in which district, in which district the Jewish

3 cemetery is located?

4 A. The Jewish cemetery is located at the same altitude as the

5 hospital across the Mijecka River at the start of the slopes of Mount

6 Trebevic.

7 Q. And those areas you're referring to opposite the hospital, who

8 actually held at that time, at the end of 1992, who or what forces held

9 the area of the Jewish cemetery and the parts of Trebevic you are talking

10 about?

11 A. They were the forces of the army of Republika Srpska.

12 Q. And about how far in a direct line from the hospital were the --

13 let us say the confrontation or separation lines, do you recall at that

14 time, the end of 1992?

15 A. I would say that they were about 300 to 400 metres as the crow

16 flies.

17 Q. And I believe you said that is on the south side of the hospital?

18 A. The south side, yes, that's right.

19 Q. Were there any other confrontation lines in the -- well, close to

20 the hospital, say, on the east, the west, or the north?

21 A. Yes, of course there were. Yes, because the city of Sarajevo is

22 not a large city in terms of space, and these were mostly in the old part

23 of town, the centre of town, and parts closer to the old part of town so

24 that, in practical terms, towards the east is the end of town, which is

25 encircled by mountains. And so quite certainly, towards the east of the

Page 1015

1 hospital, there were military conflicts going on.

2 Q. Were any other areas of military conflict quite as close to the

3 hospital as the one you've referred to where the Jewish cemetery was 300

4 to 400 metres away?

5 A. Could you restate -- rephrase your question? I'm not sure I

6 understood it.

7 Q. Let me put another way. You've referred to the lines on the

8 south side of the hospital as 300 to 400 metres. Were any other

9 confrontation lines as close to the hospital as those ones?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have an objection to make,

11 Mr. President, for the same reasons that were expounded a moment ago by my

12 learned friend. One must be certain of the time and period. If we're

13 asking questions, we must limit the question in terms of time, what period

14 of time is my learned friend referring to.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when I look at line 15 of page 47,

16 it indicates to me that the questioning is about the end of 1992. You

17 mean that we need any further specification or... ?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say is that

19 we have a succession of questions, a chain of questions, so I would like

20 to know whether we're still talking about the same period. That's all.

21 Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please verify whether we are still in the

23 same time era.

24 MR. BLAXILL: I'm talking exclusively at this time of the period

25 September 1992 through to the spring of 1993. And all questions at this

Page 1016












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Page 1017

1 point in time, Your Honours, are related to that period and that period

2 alone.

3 Q. Having said that, there is just one question on a personal basis I

4 will ask you. As you had stayed in the city up to September 1992,

5 Dr. Mandilovic, had you ever felt at any time that you were free to leave

6 the city if you had wanted to?

7 A. I don't think I could leave the city as and when I wanted to. I

8 didn't want to leave, but even if I had, I don't think I could have.

9 Q. And could you give an indication as to why you feel that way?

10 A. I think it was because you couldn't leave town in any safety.

11 Q. Thank you. Dr. Mandilovic, we are talking of the winter

12 1992/1993. Can you tell us what the conditions were as a practising

13 surgeon in that hospital to go about your profession? What was the

14 position regarding your supplies and your working conditions at that time?

15 A. Generally speaking, the situation in the hospital was difficult,

16 and we can divide it up into two -- the question can be divided up into

17 two sectors, two parts. First, there was no energy, electricity, and the

18 other requirements for the functioning of the hospital. I'm thinking of

19 fuel, electricity, and water. So that is a vital aspect for the normal

20 functioning of a hospital. Without electricity, you cannot have your

21 state of the art machines used. You have a generator, but without fuel to

22 set it into operation, the generator will not work either. Water is a

23 separate issue, and we know how important water is for hygiene. So three

24 vital elements were very much reduced. That is one side of the question.

25 The other side is the medical instruments and medicines. Complex

Page 1018

1 injuries on a daily basis had to be taken care of, and they required

2 post-operative treatment with the use of medicines. It is quite certain

3 that when you are lacking in sufficient supplies and the proper medicines,

4 that treatment will be far more difficult, or rather the chances of

5 treating the patients successfully are lower. And as far as equipment is

6 concerned, equipment is something that is used daily and it has to be

7 repaired and renewed on a regular basis, and we were not able to do that

8 under the prevailing conditions.

9 So that in the process of diagnostics, you were handicapped.

10 Q. Now --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President, and

12 I apologise for rising to my feet again. The witness still has not

13 answered the penultimate question posed by the Prosecution.

14 JUDGE ORIE: What question do you exactly mean, then,

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I meant the one asked by

17 Mr. Blaxill which was formulated, I think it was the penultimate one. It

18 was the one, at any rate, on line -- that is, page 48, between the top and

19 bottom of page 48, Mr. President, or to be more specific, it was lines 9

20 and 10 of page 48.

21 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: I noticed that, but is it up to the Prosecutor

22 to get the answer.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree. If a witness doesn't answer a question,

24 then, of course the Defence is in a position while cross-examining to come

25 back to that same question and see whether it can get an answer if the

Page 1019

1 Defence thinks they need an answer to that question. Although in general

2 terms, I would say that usually witnesses are answering questions of those

3 who examine them.

4 You may proceed, Mr. Blaxill.

5 MR. BLAXILL: At some appropriate time I may just address that

6 issue in a proper context and clarify if it's causing concern.

7 Q. Doctor, thank you. You were talking of your equipment and all the

8 things that were causing problems for you diagnostically. Now, sir, as a

9 practising surgeon having to undertake surgical procedures, what were the

10 immediate difficulties that you faced in carrying out operations in the

11 theatre? And indeed, were you able to use the theatre?

12 A. The theatres for surgical interventions were used as rationally as

13 possible. Now, what does that mean? It means that we would switch off

14 the generators and the whole hospital would be in darkness. And when the

15 patient arrived, or a number of patients arrived or a mass of wounded and

16 injured persons, they would be switched on again. And then we had the

17 basic electricity that we needed to perform our surgical interventions.

18 After that, once we had completed surgery, we would switch off the

19 generators so that, throughout that time, we had maximum rationalisation

20 and maximum savings of energy.

21 On the other hand, this also applied to the medicines. We had a

22 maximum reduction and maximum rationalisation. The hospital still had

23 medicines after the departure of the cadres of the Yugoslav people's army.

24 However, those medicines in the course of time became used up slowly so

25 that the hospital was forced or destined, fated to, survive only on the

Page 1020

1 basis of humanitarian aid. Of course, humanitarian aid was never

2 sufficient and can never be satisfactory in quality. In principle, it

3 only caters to minimum standards.

4 Q. Now, Doctor, aside from those specific difficulties, did the

5 shelling of the hospital or the damage to the hospital cause you to make

6 any arrangements for performing surgery or for the care of your patients

7 within the building?

8 A. Of course. The hospital, as I said at the beginning, has 12

9 floors, and all the floors are used for the patients, or rather the fourth

10 floor is the surgical theatre. The third floor, sterilization department,

11 and some midwives' premises, and so all the patients in the south wing had

12 to be transferred to the north wing for security reasons. And during

13 certain periods of heavy shelling, all the patients regardless would be

14 taken right down to the ground floor, the cloakrooms of the personnel

15 which we had vacated, cleaned, put hospital beds and equipment there and

16 in that way prepared, improvised hospital rooms with 10, 15, or 20

17 patients being accommodated there.

18 Q. And after the winter of 1992 throughout the year of 1993, were

19 there any changes in the working conditions in the hospital both in terms

20 of your supply and equipment and the safety issues of where you were in

21 the building and where you were able to work?

22 A. No. The end of 1992 and the whole of 1993 were hard times. The

23 situation didn't change significantly so that the regime or treatment of

24 the patients and our work remained virtually unchanged.

25 Q. Which, in this particular context we're talking about, sir, would

Page 1021

1 bring me to the winter of 1993 and into the spring of 1994. What were

2 your conditions for treating patients during that period?

3 A. As we moved forward, I think that the year 1994 brought some

4 light. That is my opinion. I think -- it was such a long time ago, but I

5 think that the situation improved in the logistical sense with the opening

6 of the so-called blue roads, blue routes, when via the airport was used

7 as a road, the airport runways, and when humanitarian aid, medicines,

8 equipment, and food were able to enter the city.

9 Q. But prior to that, Doctor, presumably, you had to work through the

10 winter months, from late 1993 into early 1994, and what had your

11 conditions been at that time prior to the blue routes and better supply?

12 A. Very hard. I understand the question. Very hard. Today, looking

13 back, it is hard to imagine that you would go without heating in the

14 middle of winter in hospital rooms, in the surgical theatre. So we were

15 all working in a temperature almost the same as the temperature outside.

16 Also, the situation was not improving regarding other sources of energy or

17 medicines, so that was really a very, very difficult period.

18 Q. Doctor, I would like to turn now and ask you that during these

19 very difficult times, could you tell us, please, that - again, if I can go

20 back if I may to the end of 1992 and beginning of 1993 - can you tell us

21 how much patients, if you can say so on a daily average, how many patients

22 were admitted to the hospital on a daily basis at that time?

23 A. You see, if I may make a point of clarification, to be more

24 precise with my answer, the hospital, as a public institution, worked

25 throughout the war. It had to admit all types of patients, patients who

Page 1022

1 were ill, patients who were injured, and patients injured as a result of

2 war. So one could divide the patients into three categories: Regular

3 patients coming in because of chronic diseases or development of those

4 diseases, injuries that had nothing to do with the war and injuries

5 inflicted by the war. It is hard to say in your medical terms today, but

6 in any event numbers were high. There is no doubt that every day through

7 the hospital clinics and departments, because the hospital consists of

8 various specialist departments, that those -- all the specialist

9 departments certainly tended to more than a hundred patients every day.

10 Q. Now, you say you took in patients of all types, and you gave us

11 some categories. Firstly, I would ask, did your patients come from both

12 the civilian and the military sector, i.e. wounded soldiers and civilians?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. Can you give me the portion between let us say those civilians you

15 have referred to here as the war-injured people, and the number of

16 military who would have been treated?

17 A. To be more precise, if we are not counting patients who came to

18 the hospital to seek assistance but without suffering from any war

19 injuries, then the ratio between civilians and the military, in my

20 estimate, was about 80 to 20. Maybe -- maybe even a higher percentage in

21 favour of civilians.

22 Q. And of those civilians, what would be the type of wounds or

23 injuries that would be treated? And can you give an indication of what

24 the source of those injuries would have been or what inflicted them? I'm

25 sorry.

Page 1023












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Page 1024

1 A. Those injuries were exclusively the consequence of wounding by

2 various kinds of projectiles. The prevalent injuries were those provoked

3 by mortar shells. But there were also injuries caused by classical

4 munitions.

5 Q. I'm afraid that's an expression I don't understand. "Classical

6 munitions," Doctor, could you please give us a definition of what that is?

7 A. I'm not a military expert either, but what I meant -- I don't know

8 how to express myself. I meant people hit by bullets, rounds, or

9 small-arms fire, to put it that way.

10 Q. Thank you. Were there some -- I would ask you yourself, did you

11 find yourself performing surgery on wounded people on a daily basis while

12 you were working through the periods we've discussed?

13 A. I could say on a daily basis, yes.

14 Q. Can you give us any idea what you would consider or you recall as

15 your general daily workload as a surgeon performing surgical operations

16 day by day in the hospital?

17 A. Perhaps it would be better to put it this way: The shelling of

18 the city were not always of the same intensity. There were days when the

19 shelling was heavier and when it was lighter. And also during the day,

20 there were periods that -- with heavier shelling and with lighter shelling

21 so that it is very difficult to say now. There is no doubt that, at times

22 of heavier shelling, there were more injuries. And when you have a large

23 influx of the wounded, then their treatment takes 10, 12, or 15 hours.

24 After that, it is possible that there would be a lull, but not

25 necessarily. Sometimes we had to go on working until the lull came. So

Page 1025

1 what I'm trying to say is that the shelling was not of the same intensity,

2 and so that the number of wounded also varied accordingly.

3 Q. Can you tell me, Doctor, can you recall the longest kind of shift

4 that you worked with your fellow surgeons in the hospital? How many hours

5 at one time have you ever done treating patients?

6 A. I think time passes quickly, you see. And one tends to forget the

7 details and to suppress others. But I think that we worked hardest and

8 for longest hours during the massacres in Sarajevo, and there were several

9 of them. I think those were difficult times, not only for the injured but

10 also for us who did our very best. We worked until exhaustion, certainly

11 up to 15 hours without interruption. I have just remembered, in fact, you

12 see, that the head of the surgical department in one such massacre set a

13 record by operating continuously for 24 hours without interruption. That

14 really is quite exceptional.

15 Q. You've just used the expression "massacres." Can you recall any

16 particular times or dates that you would attribute that word to, and do

17 you know anything about how they happened or what they were? Clearly, if

18 you don't remember --

19 A. I don't remember the dates. I just know that the first massacre

20 occurred in the Vasa Miskin [phoen] Street. Vasa Miskin Street. It was

21 described as a massacre in the media. Then there were massacres at

22 marketplaces, Makali 1 and 2. And then in another part of the city near

23 Dobrinja, there were several of those massacres. I was not in a position

24 to follow all these things very closely, you see. Especially, I'm afraid

25 I can't remember the dates. But you will find the dates registered in

Page 1026

1 other services, of course.

2 Q. Do you recall, perhaps -- you've made reference to one specific

3 street, Vasa Miskin. Do you know what the victims of that were supposed

4 to have been doing at the time when they were wounded?

5 A. It was in the morning. They were waiting for bread to be

6 distributed out of the humanitarian aid that had arrived.

7 Q. And you've also made a reference to "Makali 1." Do you recall

8 even roughly when that was?

9 A. I wasn't there, but in subsequent analyses and stories and judging

10 by the influx of the injured, one could see that that part of the centre

11 of town had probably been shelled. And judging by the injuries, the

12 seriousness and the type of injury, one could see that they were the

13 result of the devastating effect of shells and shrapnel.

14 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, I would like to have a break. I don't

16 know whether this is a good moment.

17 MR. BLAXILL: It's a very good moment, Your Honour. I would like

18 in a moment to play an excerpt of a videotape. My learned friends have

19 the appropriate copy and so forth. It is a short clip, a minute or so,

20 maybe, but it is germane to the evidence of this witness. Perhaps it

21 could be a good time that we could see that immediately after the break.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's fine. Then we have a break for 20

23 minutes. We resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.

24 Could you please bring the witness out of the courtroom; and

25 Mr. Galic, you'll be guided out of the courtroom as well.

Page 1027

1 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 5.50 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, when we had a break, you indicated that

4 you would show a video. Do I understand, according to the rules that I

5 pronounced earlier this day, that you will tender this video in evidence

6 once all the parts have been played?

7 MR. BLAXILL: Well, essentially, that is a yes. But we are

8 proposing a technical thing which might be more to the convenience of the

9 Court at the end of the day. What we would like is if the -- at this

10 stage, the clip that we show be marked for identification purposes. The

11 idea of the Prosecution being that at the end of the day, when we have

12 shown a number of the clips from the opening video to different witnesses,

13 we would propose that they be placed on a DVD so that rather than

14 individual cassettes being stacked up and handed in as a tendered exhibit,

15 you would have one DVD OF all the sections that be marked, identified, and

16 marked.

17 JUDGE ORIE: As long as you state -- indicate that it would be

18 practical to do otherwise, that those documents or videos that have been

19 played already, they will be put on a list and they will be identified one

20 of the coming days. So if it's part of it, I don't think it's necessary

21 to provide us with an extra videotape. But as soon as you go out of the

22 content of the video played, we would like to have it identified or at

23 least know when with we can tender it into evidence.

24 MR. BLAXILL: It is my intention today that we stick strictly to a

25 portion of the tape that has been played already in that regard.

Page 1028

1 I think my learned friend Mr. Ierace would like to address you on

2 this particular issue a little further.

3 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please go ahead, Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Prosecution could appreciate some

7 guidance in this regard. I anticipate that during the course of the

8 Prosecution case, there will be a number of video clips that will be shown

9 to various witnesses. Our concern is that if we did not take this

10 compilation step, that ultimately there may be 20 or 30 videocassettes,

11 each with a clip of only one or two minutes. Therefore, the proposal

12 extends beyond the opening video. The idea we had in mind was that each

13 of those clips could be marked for identification, and then at some

14 convenient time, that could all be placed on either one video or a DVD,

15 and then before each clip, there would be a text message stating which

16 item it was by reference to the identification mark.

17 If, however, the Trial Chamber would prefer that the clips were

18 tendered separately, then of course we can do that starting with this one

19 today.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think -- first, has the Defence any opinion on

21 the technicalities, any comments to make on the suggestions of the

22 Prosecution?

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.

24 You've taken me by surprise. I would have liked to have the opportunity

25 to confer because though it is a good idea, we shouldn't -- it shouldn't

Page 1029

1 produce results that would be not as good as we would wish. What may

2 happen is that there may be parts in the whole tapes that may need to be

3 replayed for other witnesses and not just clips, not just fragments. So I

4 would suggest that we come back to this question later when we are -- as

5 the Defence counsel -- when we have time to confer about this, please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we have to take a decision on the

7 video clip to be played now at this moment. This is part of the video

8 that has been played during the opening statement, so I would suggest --

9 I'll give you the opportunity perhaps to come back to it later. And I

10 suggest that if you want whole video scenes, since these are just clips

11 out of programmes, you perhaps communicate with the Prosecution whether

12 you will be able to see the whole of the video programme, perhaps, of

13 which it's taken out. And after you have discussed it with the

14 Prosecution, to see whether you still need this to be in open court and

15 have the video of which we only see a part to be played before the Court,

16 or that you can just see whether there are any other parts of this video

17 you would like to have played. And of course you can do that as Defence.

18 You can tender into evidence whatever other individual video clips you

19 want to. But for this moment, I would follow the suggestion of the

20 Prosecution.

21 That means that we will identify, give an identification

22 number, for this clip to be played today, that it will be later part of a

23 more extensive video CD -- DVD which will be tendered into evidence. And

24 that it's not necessary at this moment, if it's given a proper name - and

25 perhaps the Prosecution can invent a name for this clip of today - that

Page 1030












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Page 1031

1 it's identified and later it will be tendered into evidence, and the

2 parties will see whether there's any need of looking at the context of

3 which the video is taken. If that will be acceptable to both parties, Mr.

4 Piletta-Zanin, you can come back later to your fundamental point.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

6 will indeed come back to the matter later. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Prosecution, any comment to make at this moment?

8 MR. IERACE: None, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

10 Then could you please give a name to the clip you're going to play

11 for us now.

12 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. It is a clip relating to state hospital, so I

13 would suggest, Your Honours, "State hospital - Mandilovic," which would

14 then identify it to the witness, if that suits you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, we can't sign the clip at this

16 moment. But it has received -- it has got this identification number.

17 You may proceed, Mr. Blaxill

18 MR. BLAXILL: The witness, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. Would you please bring in the witness,

20 Mr. Usher.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Blaxill.

22 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged, Mr. President.

23 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, at this stage I would be grateful if you would

24 just view a short video clip that we will play to you, and then I will

25 have just a few short questions to ask you about it.

Page 1032

1 MR. BLAXILL: I wonder if now the video clip could be played.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. BLAXILL: That can be stopped now, please, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, I noticed that the quality of the video

5 now, which I presume is the same video as you showed to us during the

6 opening statement, was for some technical reason of less quality. If it

7 could be easily done, I would suggest that it be played again. It is just

8 a short clip.

9 MR. BLAXILL: If that would show any improvement in the quality,

10 then certainly we would do that. Otherwise, my learned friend and I were

11 just discussing the potential of how to solve it. We could perhaps

12 arrange with Your Honours, say, later on, on Monday, if this witness were

13 still testifying, perhaps we could intervene in the course of

14 cross-examination and show, hopefully, a cleaned-up copy. But if playing

15 the clip one more time might help to resolve the issue right now, then

16 indeed, we would be happy to do so.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, do you think that...

18 I do understand that there are technical problems and it will not

19 be possible to play the video in a better condition today. So I would

20 suggest that the Prosecution be given the opportunity to play the video

21 again next Monday. Of course, I don't know whether cross-examination has

22 started already by then, but then we will slightly change the order and do

23 it as soon as possible.

24 Mr. Blaxill, then, perhaps without the video, so I assume that you

25 will leave out a few questions as well, you may proceed as you would

Page 1033

1 like.

2 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm obliged to Your Honour,

3 thank you.

4 Q. Due to some technical problems, Dr. Mandilovic, I think we will

5 move off the issue of the video for this moment.

6 Doctor, could I ask you that during the time that we have been

7 talking about, from late 1992 through to the middle of 1994, was there any

8 military presence in the state hospital? By that, I mean the presence of

9 any armed soldiers.

10 A. No.

11 Q. Was the --

12 A. In the hospital, there was never any armed soldiers present. The

13 soldiers that came to the hospital on any basis, whether they were injured

14 and wounded or needing medical aid and assistance or whether they came to

15 visit somebody who was sick in hospital, would always leave their weapons

16 outside the hospital complex in a separate room designated for that.

17 Q. Thank you. Doctor, you have made reference to some people wounded

18 by small-arms fire. Did small-arms fire ever actually hit the hospital

19 itself?

20 A. I think it did because all the windows on the hospital building

21 were practically shattered. I don't know whether you can see it on the

22 video clip. It is not precise enough, but on the better photographs, you

23 can see that the entire south facade of the hospital, but the east one as

24 well and partially the west, it was all bullet-riddled from small arms.

25 Q. And did this bullet-riddling damage of the hospital, did that

Page 1034

1 occur after September 1992 or continue after September 1992, and did it

2 continue in 1993?

3 A. Yes. Yes, it did.

4 Q. Did it continue, in fact, through 1994?

5 A. Yes, it did.

6 Q. And can you give any idea to the Chamber as to where this

7 small-arms fire came from?

8 A. Following on from logics, the small-arms fire could only have come

9 from the southeastern, southern, and southwestern side.

10 Q. And can you attribute names of areas that were in those locations

11 where you felt the fire was coming from?

12 A. I couldn't be precise. I think it came from the slopes of the

13 Trebevic mountain, the Jewish cemetery, and the Vrace part of Grbavica

14 settlement, I think. Those are the zones which would correspond to the

15 south-easterly, southern, and southwestern side, or the angles from which

16 the firing could have come.

17 Q. To the best of your recollection, Doctor, were there ever

18 occasions when shells landed or bullets struck as people were being

19 admitted to the hospital? In other words, were people hit and wounded

20 outside the hospital buildings?

21 A. In front of the hospital building itself, you couldn't hit a

22 patient. You couldn't hit a person because the buildings that rise up in

23 front of the hospital prevent a good angle of vision. You can't get a

24 good view. So the injured who came to the hospital and were injured in

25 front of the hospital, that was exclusively the result of the shelling.

Page 1035

1 Q. In your experience of being in Sarajevo, let alone being a surgeon

2 at the hospital, which did you consider the greater hazard to people, the

3 shelling or the sniping?

4 A. Much greater danger was from the shelling.

5 Q. Can you tell us why the one is so much more dangerous than the

6 other?

7 A. Because you could know approximately where a snipe-- sniper fire

8 was coming from. And you would be able to protect yourself, to see that

9 you weren't out in an open space facing the southern side. However, the

10 projectiles of shells, you can't save yourself from projectiles of shells

11 because they come in a parabola, in an arch, and are then dispersed and

12 their destructive power is much greater than a bullet from a gunshot.

13 Q. And were any measures taken within the city, in fact, to give

14 added protection to civilians from sniping, any form of --

15 A. Yes, yes. Measures were undertaken at large crossroads open

16 towards the south. They were protected with containers and metal barriers

17 or screens. They were all improvised protection, but nonetheless quite

18 good quality and good protection against sniper fire.

19 Q. Presumably, Doctor, such barriers were of no use against

20 ammunition travelling in a parabola that you've just described, in other

21 words, a shell falling into the city. They would offer no protection from

22 that, would they?

23 A. That's right, they couldn't. You couldn't protect yourself from

24 the parabola projectile.

25 Q. Sir, in the course of this period from late September of 1992 to

Page 1036

1 the first half of 1994, were there any casualties amongst patients who

2 were actually wounded further whilst in the hospital?

3 A. There were several cases of wounding -- patients additionally

4 wounded actually, patients and hospital staff. And because of that, we

5 would lower the patients down as low as possible in the phases so that

6 they would not be under sniper attack. I cannot say with any certainty

7 how many. I'm sure those facts and figures existed and the hospital

8 management probably has the information. But there must have been about

9 ten all in all.

10 Q. Now, Doctor, in your experience in that hospital, I believe you

11 made some mention of the relationship between the sort of military

12 casualties you treated and the civilian. What can you say about the

13 number of civilian casualties you observed in the city and how do you

14 think so many, so many casualties could have been brought about?

15 A. What I think is the following: Sarajevo is a relatively large

16 city with quite a large population, and you couldn't keep that entire

17 population in a basement. The population had to move around. People went

18 to work. They had to go and fetch foodstuffs or humanitarian aid. So

19 the inhabitants had to move around over this long period of time. And

20 when there was this movement on the part of the population, the

21 inhabitants, any shell that fell had, following on from logics, to have

22 wrought destruction because it is a town. There is concrete all around

23 you, and wherever a shell falls leads to further dispersion and

24 reverberation. And as I said a moment ago, it is very difficult when you

25 are outside a basement or cellar to save yourself from that if there was

Page 1037












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Page 1038

1 to be an explosion close by where you were. And it is precisely

2 because of that that there were far more injured and wounded civilians

3 coming into hospital.

4 The soldiers were at the outskirts of town, and probably in

5 trenches, too, so that they did have some protection, and there were fewer

6 of them, fewer soldiers than there were civilians. So that is what led to

7 this difference in percentages with respect to the wounded and injured.

8 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, can you please tell the Tribunal something of the

9 emotional effects that the shelling and the sniping had upon people in

10 Sarajevo, your observations perhaps of colleagues and patients and the

11 population in general you had contact with?

12 A. Of course. Over a long period of time, with the very difficult

13 conditions of a state of siege with permanent shelling that was -- caused

14 devastation, this must have had an effect on the mental makeup of man in

15 such an environment. I personally think that in that -- at that stage,

16 there was a particular fear, anxiety, all this gained particular

17 expression, neurosis, neurasthenia, phobias of different kinds, all the

18 deviant mental states and illnesses which were conditioned and the result

19 of an unnatural state of affairs over a long period of time.

20 Q. Is there perhaps -- if I could ask sort of moving away from the

21 slightly more medical approach, in just common parlance, could you sum up

22 the mood of the people, how they felt on a daily basis undergoing life

23 with the shelling and the sniping?

24 A. You know what it was like. First of all, you have the stage of

25 fear. Then there's the phase of optimism when you think it will all pass.

Page 1039

1 And when you see it doesn't pass, fear is multiplied and magnified with

2 all its other repercussions and this would ultimately end in a pessimistic

3 phase of indignation. So that ultimately, in the end, the population

4 becomes completely blunt, if I can use that term, to everything going on

5 around it. Numb, numb to everything going on around them.

6 Q. Do you have any view or anything to say about the attacks on the

7 hospital in relation to the mental effects upon the patients who were in

8 that hospital at the time? Was there anything you noticed in respect of

9 that?

10 A. When there is fighting and when medical facilities are being

11 attacked in war, this is particularly serious and has grave effects, not

12 only on the hospital staff, and that is the essential point, but it has

13 this effect on patients who experience once again trauma. So simplify

14 matters, we have a doubling of traumatism, so you have somebody who is

15 injured with a contusion, and he is in hospital, a place where he should

16 be given peace and quiet, and he has to experience a repeated instance of

17 a dangerous situation.

18 Q. Doctor, did you have your family with you in Sarajevo during the

19 war?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Can you say where they were living?

22 A. In our apartment.

23 Q. And your family consisted of whom, your wife and/or children?

24 A. Yes, wife and child.

25 Q. And how did you feel on a daily basis with your family at the

Page 1040

1 apartment and yourself working in the hospital; did this arouse any

2 particular feelings in yourself, the shelling and sniping going on?

3 A. It's difficult to describe the states we were in. It was a state

4 of permanent fear, not for your own personal safety but for your nearest

5 and dearest, your family, your friends, your relatives, and the troubles

6 aggravated because you were cut off -- you had no telephone link. If

7 there was an attack, you couldn't ring up your apartment, your home, to

8 ask how they were or what was going on. So that was an added

9 aggravation. And it is very difficult to describe what one actually felt

10 and what the situation was actually like after so much time, with this

11 time distance.

12 Q. Doctor, you've used the expression "the fear felt by people." As

13 a layman, the word "fear" could mean any level of fear, from very small to

14 very great. Can you put a level or just a word that would describe the

15 degree of fear that was present in the population of Sarajevo when they

16 were going through these months of shelling and sniping?

17 A. That's a very delicate question, subtle.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

19 like to object to the question by my learned colleague in view of the

20 specialist of the doctor. He is an ear, nose, and throat doctor, whereas

21 my learned colleague has asked for the degree of fear. To assess the

22 degree of fear, an assessment of the degree of fear is not within the

23 domain of a doctor who is not a specialist in that realm, in that field.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you respond to that, Mr. Blaxill?

25 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, indeed I will, Your Honour. Your Honour, a

Page 1041

1 doctor is nonetheless the doctor. There is absolutely no effort by the

2 Prosecution or indeed Dr. Mandilovic to represent himself in medical terms

3 as a psychological or psychiatric expert. That is not our intent and we

4 will certainly not go down that road. I think there are two aspects here

5 that make it a relevant question. Firstly, as a doctor, he was treating

6 a lot of people during the war. Doctors are professional people who will

7 observe and have some knowledge of simple human experience. And the

8 question I asked, I thought, was really directed simply at his observation

9 of a level of fear he observed in people, or maybe even felt himself. And

10 that can be, I think, even very much a layman's realm, because it is not

11 that difficult for anyone with a degree of experience of life to see

12 whether somebody appears to be calm or happy or very happy or ecstatically

13 happy. We are asking simply for that, with the additional experience this

14 man has brought to bear by having been a doctor treating people throughout

15 that period but not beyond his general medical training, certainly not

16 into the realms of specialty.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the objection is denied.

19 Dr. Mandilovic is not called as an expert on his medical specialty, and

20 the question put to Dr. Mandilovic is such that it's asking for an

21 assessment which can be made by any human being, so Dr. Mandilovic, you

22 may answer the question.

23 A. Fear as a form of human behaviour is difficult to level, to

24 determine levels and degrees. Let me simplify matters, if I may. To all

25 intents and purposes, you are living and working under constant fear. But

Page 1042

1 the intensity of fear in different phases is different. That is to say,

2 it increases or decreases. It is quite certain that when close by in your

3 environment, several projectiles happen to hit, your fear multiplies and

4 you then react in different ways. You react in a normal way, you panic,

5 and so on and so forth. And in calm phases, the fear slowly subsides, is

6 reduced in tension because ultimately, there is -- we cannot be in a state

7 of permanent fear. And I said a moment ago that this is the stage where

8 indignation steps in. I think that that is a very good expression to

9 reflect the situation. One has exhausted the organism, the body. The

10 mind is exhausted from permanent fear.


12 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, thank you for that. I have really one further

13 area to ask you briefly about, and again, I take note that I do not do so

14 as if you are a psychologist or psychiatrist. I know that you are not,

15 sir. But can you say something about any behaviour in people that has

16 been noticed or has been manifest after the war? In other words, how are

17 people today some years on? Are there any problems that still seem to

18 persist mentally?

19 A. I think that there are certain repercussions in the present-day

20 Sarajevo, especially among the people who spent the whole time in

21 Sarajevo during the war. Those are my personal impressions. They need

22 not be accurate. But I think that there is a significant percentage

23 increase in various types of neurosis and neurasthenia among people in my

24 immediate vicinity and beyond that, various illogical fears, the tendency

25 to react stormily and unexpectedly, a high degree of intolerance and the

Page 1043

1 like. There is no doubt that in addition to mental disorders, there are

2 certain organic disorders as well.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. BLAXILL: If I may just have a moment, Mr. President.

5 That concludes my examination-in-chief, Your Honours. I'm

6 obliged, thank you, Dr. Mandilovic. Just remain there.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill. Repeating that you'll have

8 an opportunity to play the video next Monday, I would now give the Defence

9 the opportunity to cross-examine Dr. Mandilovic.

10 Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence wishes to thank

12 you, Mr. President. But before Ms. Pilipovic starts the

13 cross-examination, I should like to raise a point which is in direct

14 connection to the cross-examination. We should like to submit to the

15 witness a document which is a document that has been disclosed by the

16 Prosecution, not as an exhibit but among other documents. But it is not

17 possible for me physically to find that exhibit among the binders that I

18 mentioned the other day. I was able to find something on my computer, but

19 the Defence does not have the ability to print this document. I can

20 provide the references, but we can't print it. And if we wish to show it,

21 we need to be able to produce it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to find a practical solution. One

23 moment, please.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you be in a position to copy the document

25 you would like to show on a diskette, give it to the Registry, and the

Page 1044












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Page 1045

1 usher will have it printed somewhere?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I can do, because I'm not

3 a great expert, but I can give the references to the Prosecution, and then

4 perhaps the Prosecution can do that because it is their document. I would

5 be glad to do that. The reference, it is the following document: It is

6 in the last list that I received. It is Document numbered 121002, and the

7 number on the document itself is 00478801. Maybe I should repeat the

8 numbers: 00478801. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: One final question, did you indicate to the

10 Prosecution that you wanted this document to be used during

11 cross-examination or not? Perhaps we could have avoided all this delay.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for

13 asking me that, but the documents that we will produce will always depend

14 on what the witness says. And we never know in advance which documents we

15 will need to produce. So I didn't have time to inform the Prosecution.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes you can foresee things that develop,

18 because I would like to make quite clear that I would prefer not to lose

19 any time on these practical problems during the Court hearing. So later

20 we will be in a position to see whether this could have been prevented or

21 not. But once again, I urge the parties to solve most of the practical

22 problems out of this courtroom and not spending any time on it.

23 But can the Prosecution produce the document on short notice?

24 MR. IERACE: Indeed, Mr. President. We have some people trying to

25 obtain a copy of that document as I speak.

Page 1046

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. So, then, Ms. Pilipovic, you

2 may proceed in cross-examination of the witness.

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mandilovic, good evening.

5 A. Good evening.

6 Q. Would you agree with me that on the 11th of February, 2000, as a

7 witness, you gave a statement to the investigators of the Tribunal?

8 A. I did make a statement, but I cannot confirm the date. I truly

9 don't remember.

10 Q. Can you confirm that on the 5th of February, 2001, and on the 2nd

11 of October, 2001, you had interviews with Tribunal investigators?

12 A. I did have interviews with the investigators of the Tribunal, but

13 I'm not certain about the dates.

14 Q. Thank you. You started your testimony by saying that you arrived

15 in Sarajevo when you were four years old. So you have been living in

16 Sarajevo since 1953, together with your parents?

17 A. Yes, it was '53 or '54, yes.

18 Q. So you moved to Sarajevo, and since then you have been permanently

19 residing in Sarajevo?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So you have been living and working in Sarajevo all this time?

22 A. Yes, indeed.

23 Q. Thank you. Responding to a question from my learned friend as to

24 the situation in Sarajevo, you said it was difficult from the beginning of

25 1992 and that the situation gradually worsened. Could you explain what

Page 1047

1 exactly you mean?

2 A. When I said that the situation was difficult at the beginning of

3 1992, I wasn't thinking of the wartime conditions. I was thinking of the

4 general living conditions, that is, heightened political tensions in the

5 town and in the state.

6 Q. To be more specific, I'm going to ask you about the city of

7 Sarajevo itself, as that is where you lived. You said that there were

8 political tensions. Among whom were those tensions and at what level?

9 A. When you have several parties, political parties, then there have

10 to be tension. That is clear.

11 Q. Do you mean that until then, relations in Sarajevo were harmonious

12 and calm and that differences in views were not noticeable, nor that there

13 were any difficulties?

14 A. Yes. Before the multiparty system was established, the situation

15 was far more stable.

16 Q. Which were the political parties that were decisive in creating

17 those difficulties?

18 A. The leading national parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and therefore

19 in Sarajevo as well.

20 Q. Would you agree with me that the formation of national parties was

21 the cause of all the subsequent conflicts in Sarajevo?

22 A. That's a political question, and now already a historical one.

23 And I'm really not an expert for those matters, I'm sorry.

24 Q. Thank you. You told us that at the beginning of 1992, there were

25 incidents and individual clashes. You said at the beginning of 1992 --

Page 1048

1 you didn't tell us exactly when, whether it was February, March, or April,

2 but I assume that would be the beginning of 1992, you said that there were

3 isolated clashes and incidents. Could you tell us which those incidents

4 and conflicts were?

5 A. I was referring to incidents and clashes on the political level.

6 I personally was not involved in any such conflicts or incidents.

7 Q. Do you know that there were any actual physical conflicts in the

8 course of the month of March in Sarajevo?

9 A. In my surroundings, no, I have no such knowledge.

10 Q. In what part of Sarajevo did you live as you were living in the

11 military hospital?

12 A. I was living in the municipality of Novo Sarajevo.

13 Q. Tell us, please, where the hospital is located.

14 A. In the municipality Centar.

15 Q. You told us that the conflict exploded on the 6th of April, and it

16 started growing.

17 A. Of course.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please -- Dr. Mandilovic, I'd like to ask

19 you, could you just look at your screen and wait until it stops moving

20 before you give an answer, because the interpreters might not be able to

21 follow it that quickly. But you understand each other, but it all has to

22 be translated. Thank you very much for your cooperation.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].

25 Q. I was asking you, and let me repeat, that that conflict climaxed

Page 1049

1 on the 6th of April, and it gradually increased, as you said?

2 A. Yes, as far as I can remember, at the beginning of April, there

3 were various peace demonstrations all over town. Everybody wanted to be

4 involved in the political game, to stand out. It is hard to say now, but

5 I think already then, at the beginning of April, the situation gradually

6 became abnormal, precisely because of those demonstrations, meetings in

7 the assembly, in the centre of town, at Marijin Dvor. There were vast

8 crowds of people waiting for something to be resolved. That's what I had

9 in mind. It was an atmosphere that was out of the normal, out of the

10 usual.

11 Q. In April, you went regularly to work?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you tell us whether in the hospital in which you worked,

14 were there any incidents? Were there any conflicts among certain people

15 in the hospital, or was the situation normal as that was in those days a

16 military hospital of the Yugoslav people's army?

17 A. The situation was as follows: Real conflicts of -- did not

18 exist. The only thing that was noticeable in April was that Bosniak

19 personnel were abandoning -- leaving the hospital and going home.

20 Q. Could you tell us why, if we just agreed that there were no

21 incidents in the hospital itself? Why did Bosniak members of staff go

22 home and leave the hospital?

23 A. They left the hospital probably out of fear that there would be a

24 repetition of the situation from Slavonija and Croatia, where wars had

25 broken out. And I think that was the main reason for them to leave their

Page 1050

1 working places.

2 Q. But in the hospital itself, could you notice any manifestations of

3 any particular feelings amongst staff with relation to people who you have

4 described as Bosniak personnel? Was anyone giving them cause to fear a

5 possible war?

6 A. I didn't notice any such thing.

7 Q. In your statement which you gave to the investigators of the

8 Tribunal on the 11th of February, 2000, on page 4 of the B/C/S version,

9 you said, "When the JNA withdrew from the state hospital, it was an

10 organised departure and equipment and drugs were left behind. The

11 hospital had been surrounded by patriotic forces and agreement had been

12 reached that equipment would be left behind."

13 Could you please tell us first when that was?

14 A. That is correct, I did say that, but I didn't quite get your

15 question. What exactly did you ask me?

16 Q. I was asking you when did this occur.

17 A. You mean when the JNA left the hospital?

18 Q. No, when the hospital was surrounded by patriotic forces and

19 agreement had been reached that equipment would be left behind.

20 A. Let me tell you. Let me see. Negotiations were conducted with

21 the hospital management by entities from the city. I think the minister

22 of the interior came and they negotiated how that should be done, in what

23 manner. I played no part in that. I just know about it from hearsay.

24 Q. Who was the director of the hospital at that time?

25 A. The director of the military hospital was Colonel Doctor Tomislav

Page 1051

1 Dosan [phoen].

2 Q. Who was the minister participating in the negotiations?

3 A. The minister was Jusuf Pusina [phoen].

4 Q. When was the hospital surrounded by patriotic forces, and do you

5 know who those patriotic forces were?

6 A. Well, you see, I never saw those patriotic forces on the spot

7 surrounding the hospital, but such an atmosphere was created in the

8 hospital, and you had the impression that the hospital was in an

9 encirclement. Probably that, with hindsight now, that was probably due to

10 situations in Slavonija and Croatia where military facilities, including

11 hospitals, were surrounded by certain civilian entities, and I think that

12 could be ascribed to that.

13 Q. The Bosniak personnel that left the hospital as you said, did they

14 do so before this event or after this event?

15 A. Which event?

16 Q. After the hospital was surrounded by patriotic forces and after

17 the agreement had been reached, did the Bosniaks leave before or after?

18 A. The Bosniak staff left consecutively, but I can't say that all of

19 them left. That did not happen. They left gradually, individually, in

20 the course of April. The agreement that I'm talking about, and which I

21 remember, is the agreement that was reached, I think this was in May, just

22 before the JNA staff left the hospital.

23 Q. You told us that after a certain amount of time, the Bosniak staff

24 members came back to the hospital.

25 A. Yes, after the JNA staff had left, the Bosniak staff and others

Page 1052












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1053

1 gradually started coming to the hospital. And they continued working as

2 they did before they had left.

3 Q. Is it true that after this agreement was reached, the entire

4 equipment and medicine -- medical supplies needed by the hospital were

5 left behind?

6 A. That is true.

7 Q. After that agreement was signed, were any changes made regarding

8 the managerial staff of the hospital? You even told us that a new body

9 was set up of which you were not a part?

10 A. That is correct. After the JNA had left the hospital, the

11 hospital continued working. For it to be able to work properly, it needed

12 to have its management. And then in the first stage, we actually had a

13 kind of triumvirate, to use that term, consisting of a Serb, a Croat, and

14 a Bosniak.

15 Q. Who was the director of the hospital at that time?

16 A. It was a joint collective managerial body, and the operation or

17 executive person was Doctor Bakanakas [phoen].

18 Q. Had he worked in the hospital before then?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know when he left the hospital and whether he left the

21 hospital at all?

22 A. He left the hospital sometime in April, but I don't know when. I

23 don't know the date.

24 Q. You told us that in April 1992, there were individual shelling

25 incidents.

Page 1054

1 A. In April?

2 Q. Yes. Will you tell me, please, which locations that you know of

3 or remember were shelled?

4 A. As far as I can remember, according to the best -- my

5 recollection, that most of the shooting occurred in the southern part of

6 the city. I think this coincides -- I'm not quite certain, you see, but I

7 think this coincided with certain battles over the police school at Vrace.

8 That is the period. It is from that direction that considerable amount of

9 shooting could be heard.

10 Q. You said battles between whom?

11 A. I don't know. I was never there. I never went there.

12 Q. Do you have any knowledge that in April, there was shelling and

13 fighting in Ilidza, and that the hospital was shelled?

14 A. No, which hospital?

15 Q. It was the institute for physical therapy.

16 A. The institute for physical therapy, I don't know that. I went

17 there after the war, and I see that the institute was totally burned

18 down. But when it was burned down, I really don't know.

19 Q. Were there any incidents within the framework of the conflict in

20 the city of Sarajevo that stood out in the course of the month of May?

21 A. Already in May, there was a lot of firing around town. I remember

22 that well. And in town, itself, the situation was difficult. It was a

23 state problem. I think this was on the 2nd or the 3rd of May, 1992 when

24 the incident occurred with President Izetbegovic, and when that bad

25 situation occurred with the command of the military district and there was

Page 1055

1 some sort of an exchange and so on. But I know this from the media. All

2 this was beyond my immediate surroundings and knowledge.

3 Q. Were you working in the military hospital at the time as well?

4 A. I left the military hospital on the 2nd of May.

5 Q. Of that same year, 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And when did you go back?

8 A. Was it the 14th, 15th, or 16th? Those were hard times. But in

9 any event, in the second half of the month of May.

10 Q. Did you have to leave the hospital on the 2nd of May?

11 A. What do you mean, did I have to?

12 Q. You said that you left the hospital.

13 A. I did. But I didn't have to. No one forced me out. No one

14 pointed a gun at me and told me to go out.

15 Q. No, no. I didn't mean that. I just wanted you to explain for me

16 the period when you were not in hospital, because you told me that you had

17 worked at the hospital throughout.

18 A. I did, with the exception of those ten days or so. With the

19 exception of those ten or so days, then I did work in the hospital all the

20 time.

21 Q. Were you on annual leave?

22 A. No, you must be joking.

23 Q. No, just please tell me.

24 A. I'll tell you anything you ask.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we are close to 7.00 by now. Could

Page 1056

1 you please give us an estimate on how much time do you think you still

2 need for the cross-examination? That's my first question. And my second

3 question is whether you could find a proper moment within the next two or

4 three minutes to, for today, finish your cross-examination.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my cross-examination

6 will take another hour and a half, and I think that this is a good time

7 for us to interrupt the cross-examination and resume on Monday.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

9 We adjourn these proceedings until Monday. We'll start at 9.00 in

10 the morning and we'll continue until 1.45 p.m. And then I would like to

11 ask the usher to bring the witness out of the courtroom.

12 There's another question, Mr. Ierace, as far as I understand, but

13 it's not necessary for the witness to attend.

14 Yes, please.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I produced the document that

16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin has identified by the numbers. That is

17 Document 00478801. I'll make available some copies to him.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. And Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you know that

19 you have to pre-number it according to your system if you tender the

20 document in evidence.

21 Then, could you please bring General Galic out of the courtroom.

22 All those who have assisted us on the technical level today and also the

23 interpretation, we wish you a nice weekend and we will see you again at

24 9.00 on Monday morning. Thank you.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

Page 1057

1 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on

2 Monday, the 10th day of December, 2001,

3 at 9.00 a.m.