1 Friday, 7 December 2001
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Ladies and gentlemen, General
6 Galic. Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Before we continue the cross-examination of Mr. Kovac, I'd like to
11 come back on a few issues that were discussed during the past few days,
12 and one of them is how we should deal with documents in this Court. I'll
13 try to explain to you as clearly as I can how we intend to do it. If
14 there are any questions remaining, you always can ask it to the Registrar,
15 and if there's any problem in relation with that, she'll be in touch with
16 me to solve these problems.
17 So how to deal with documents that have been used during trial.
18 We are talking about documents that have been shown to a witness or have
19 been shown to the Chamber, not just documents of which a few lines have
20 been read without showing them to the Chamber or to the other party or to
21 a witness. It should be clear from the beginning whether the party that
22 shows such a document or an object or a video intends to tender the
23 document in evidence because if it's not intended to have this document
24 tendered in evidence, it will just be marked for identification.
25 The procedure for marking for identification is the following one:
1 One, documents to be marked for identification do not need any
2 pre-numbering by the parties. Two, the original of the document should be
3 handed over to the Registrar. Three, the Registrar marks the document for
4 identification, giving it an MFI number, and signs it. Four, the
5 Registrar will then keep the document for a while, she'll make a copy of
6 the marked original. That copy of the marked original will stay with the
7 Registry. Five, the marked original will be returned to the party that
8 has used the document.
9 A similar procedure is valid as far as videos that are shown are
10 concerned, if they are not tendered into evidence.
11 Then I come to the second category that are documents, objects,
12 videos, et cetera that are tendered in evidence by one of the parties.
13 Pre-numbering by the party on the document concerned is required. So that
14 was rule number 1. Number 2, the intention to tender into evidence the
15 document or video or whatever object should be indicated upon the first
16 use of the document, video, or other object during trial. Three, the
17 other party can then raise immediately any objection, so already upon this
18 indication. If no objection is raised, and that's number 4, the document,
19 video, object, will be tendered into evidence at the end of the
20 examination of the witness by the party. And if it is admitted into
21 evidence, it is given an exhibit number, which will be the number given by
22 the party but then preceded by either a P, for Prosecution, or a D, for
24 Once the document is admitted into evidence, we will call them
25 exhibits. So until that moment, they are just documents, documents not to
1 be tendered into evidence, or documents just to be identified. But once
2 they are admitted in evidence, they will be referred to as exhibits, and
3 then the number given to it by the Registry.
4 I now come to documents that bear any markings on them, markings
5 made by a witness. If during examination-in-chief the witness has put any
6 markings on a document, first the blank document should be tendered into
7 evidence as well as the marked document. It is suggested to the parties
8 not to tender the marked document in evidence until cross-examination is
9 concluded. If different colours for marking are used during
10 examination-in-chief and during cross-examination - we started yesterday
11 with red for the Prosecution and black for the Defence - we limit the
12 number of documents that will become exhibits, especially yesterday with
13 the maps. I think we all experienced that reducing the number of maps as
14 exhibits would not be bad. So that is a suggestion to the parties not to
15 tender them into evidence. And of course, the other party is always free
16 that if we say we cannot work in whatever way with this map, they always
17 can tender their own maps in evidence. But it would be highly appreciated
18 if the parties could at least compromise on what map is to be used,
19 otherwise, we get really confused.
20 I now come to what happens once a document has become an exhibit.
21 Whenever a document has become an exhibit, the parties are supposed to put
22 the P, for Prosecution, or the D, for Defence, and the numbers on the
23 copies they have been provided with already. But if a document has been
24 marked by a witness, copies of the exhibit, so that's the marked exhibit,
25 will have to be provided to the parties. The Registry will take care of
1 that. If the parties want to have these copies on short notice, this will
2 only be possible if the exhibits will be copied by the Office of the
3 Prosecutor. This would mean that the chain of custody for which the
4 Registry is responsible has to be broken for a short period of time and
5 merely for reproduction. I invite the Defence to agree with such a short
6 break. If the Defence would not agree, of course, it's entirely up to you
7 to make up your mind. If the Defence does not agree, it might cause
8 considerable delays in receiving the copies of the marked documents.
9 I add to that that whether the original that will be given back to
10 the Registrar after having been reproduced by the Office of the
11 Prosecutor, whether any changes as far as the markings are concerned can
12 be seen. It is always possible to verify whether these are still the
13 original markings or whether anything has been changed by watching the
14 trial video in which the marking of the document as such is shown. So
15 this Chamber thinks that there is hardly any risk that any document would
16 be changed while being reproduced by the Office of the Prosecutor. But I
17 leave it up to the Defence on whether they will agree with this
18 procedure. And I indicated how it is possible to verify that no changes
19 are made.
20 The exhibits that finally stay with the Registry are always there
21 for inspection upon request by the parties. This is the order for
22 documents we decided upon, apart from this specific procedure for
23 reproduction in order to speed up the return of the exhibits, the marked
24 exhibits, to the parties. I would like to hear either now or on short
25 notice from the Defence whether they would agree with this short break in
1 the chain of custody for these marked exhibits.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has
3 listened carefully to what you have just set out. And with regard to
4 documents listed as exhibit, when it comes to maps, the Defence would like
5 to make a suggestion, if it may. As evidence by the Prosecution, the
6 black and white map of Sarajevo was introduced in the scale of 1 to
7 12.000, and after that, a map with markings which the witness made in
8 response to questions from the Prosecution, and afterwards, the Defence
9 was allowed to utilize that map, and the Defence will be tendering the map
10 as an exhibit. I should like to suggest that the Prosecution and Defence
11 in future use this same map when witnesses are being examined, and the
12 Defence would like to request that a clear copy of this one map be handed
13 to the Defence as well so as to coordinate our effort and that we use the
14 same map for the examination of witnesses.
15 When examination of the witness is over, the Defence accepts your
16 suggestion that a copy of that map which has been tendered into evidence
17 as an exhibit be copied, and that one copy be placed with the Defence and
18 the other with the Prosecution.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that you also accept that there
20 will be a short break of the chain of custody. And this, of course, is
21 only valid for the exhibits of the Prosecution because all the exhibits
22 the Defence will tender, if there are any markings on it, they will be
23 reproduced by the Registry. So it's only just -- so the chain of custody
24 will not be broken if it concerns exhibits with a D on it, Defence
1 As far as I understand, parties do agree that usually we'll use
2 the map that has been -- the blank map that has been tendered into
3 evidence. You also agree that during examination-in-chief and during
4 cross-examination, they may be marked with different colours, and then
5 finally the party who called the witness tender the map marked as it is
6 into evidence.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. With the
8 comment that I made, that the map with the markings of positions where the
9 witness indicated certain positions in response to questions from the
10 cross-examination, the Defence will tender into evidence as well. I think
11 we agree on that point. So we'll be using one and the same map all the
12 time, a copy of this one map which the Prosecution and the Defence will
14 JUDGE ORIE: And as far as Mr. Kovac is concerned, the map will be
15 tendered twice in evidence, once with the red markings and once with the
16 black markings, and for the future they will be tendered only one time in
17 evidence with both colour of markings on it. Thank you very much. I'm
18 quite glad we could agree on that.
19 Then I would invite to the Defence to give a response to the
20 suggestion that has been made by the Prosecution yesterday. I see it was
21 at 10 minutes past 4.00, but I'm not quite sure whether the time is
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is correct,
24 Mr. President. I thank the Chamber for according us this opportunity.
25 The Trial Chamber could have seen through the testimony of the witness
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 yesterday to what point it is important to be able to note what the
2 attitudes of witnesses are, especially when this begins by asking you
3 whether -- because he began by asking you whether he was obliged to answer
4 questions put to him by the Defence. This led us to think that it was not
5 right to follow the oral motion formulated by the Prosecution simply
6 because we believe that your Trial Chamber must at all times be able to
7 appreciate the manner in which testimony is given, as well as the
8 contents. So the form and the contents. And taking the example of
9 yesterday's witness, at one point he contradicted himself, and we have a
10 point to make with respect to that.
11 The witness said that what he had said previously during the
12 examination-in-chief was not what he actually meant but was the result
13 of a mistake in the interpretation or translation. I think at this
14 stage, it would be useful for the Chamber to hear the tapes played again,
15 and we can verify to see what the answer was, whether it was really a
16 different answer or an error in interpretation.
17 And as to basics, there will be other testimonies where the
18 Defence and the Trial Chamber would like to see how witnesses comport
19 themselves, in not only what they say, because -- and we have a negative
20 answer to the proposal made by the Prosecution yesterday at around 1600
21 hours. Thank you for your attention.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I may invite the
23 parties to continue whatever communications as how to speed up the trial
24 without losing any of the rights or any of the aspects that the party
25 thinks of as important for the case. But I can imagine that on some
1 issues, that at least perhaps on a few more issues, that some compromise
2 would be possible. For example, yesterday, we went through a lot of areas
3 of the town again, and the witness was asked a couple of times, what is
4 this area, what's that area? I think if you would compromise on what
5 areas there are and where they are on this map, that would, perhaps, speed
6 up the questioning of the witness.
7 But I leave it to the parties, but I invite them to continue to
8 communicate whatever might be useful to make this trial as efficient as
10 Then -- yes, Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might I clarify one of the
12 points that you had set out in relation to the tendering of proposed
13 exhibits, and that is point 2. I think you said, Mr. President, that the
14 party who intends to tender a document should indicate that at the first
15 time that it is put to the witness. But if I could explain my concern by
16 way of example, if a witness was being examined in chief and shown a
17 document, as the directions given by you presently read, as I understand
18 it, that would be the point at which the counsel would indicate to the
19 Trial Chamber that it is their intention to tender that document. But of
20 course, at that point, there may be no proper basis to tender it. That
21 would depend in most cases upon what answers the witness gave in relation
22 to the document.
23 I assume that you have in mind, Mr. President, that the
24 time for making submissions both for and against the tender are after
25 those relevant questions have been asked of the witness, that is, at a
1 point in time that the examining counsel is of the view that the document
2 in this example has been shown to have sufficient probative value in order
3 for it to be tendered. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Of course, that's also the
5 reason why I used the word "intends" to tender. Of course, the
6 development of the examination of the witness may be such that finally,
7 the document loses all its relevance. But one of the reasons why I
8 proposed this is that if the other party, and I expect the parties to
9 communicate to each other prior to the examination of the witness of what
10 documents they intend to use -- I'm not saying to tender into evidence,
11 but what documents they are going to use during the examination of a
12 witness so the other party can see, whether, for example, it's a forgery
13 or not so that they can make the kind of objections that you can make at
14 this moment. And then of course after the examination of the witnesses,
15 we'll see whether there's still probative value, whether it's relevant or
16 not, and so then we come to these kind of issues.
17 But I would try to avoid any situation where a witness is
18 confronted with a document which the other party thinks to be a forgery so
19 that at least there's an opportunity at that moment to comment on that.
20 It's a very practical solution, and I do understand that the intention
21 might change during the examination of the witness.
22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you would like to comment on that?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I just wish to indicate to
24 the Chamber that the Defence is in agreement with this but that there are
25 problems, that is to say, to see what the Prosecution -- how these
1 problems can be treated in order to reduce the number of problems and cut
2 down the number of exhibits. Thank you for your attention, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. We spend 20 to 25
4 minutes on the issue. I hope it will save us a lot of time in the future.
5 It's now, Ms. Pilipovic, you have the -- you may proceed now,
6 after the witness Kovac has been brought in, with the cross-examination of
7 Mr. Kovac.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one
9 point, I'm sorry. The Defence needs to finalize a document, and the
10 Defence would like to know when we will have the break because depending
11 on that, and in order to respect the time limit, I may need to be absent,
12 and I would prefer to do so before the witness is heard, if that will not
13 disturb the Chamber.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to continue, as a matter of fact, and I
15 think the break will be as usual at a quarter to 4.00, since Ms. Pilipovic
16 indicated yesterday that she would need one more hour. That would be
17 approximately at the end of the cross-examination of the witness, and
18 perhaps you can then do whatever you need to do during the break.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, you can bring in the witness.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 WITNESS: MUSTAFA KOVIC [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Kovac.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me and can you understand me?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I may remind you that you are still bound
4 by the solemn declaration that you made the day before yesterday.
5 Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kovac, good afternoon.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. In the course of the cross-examination yesterday, we stopped when
11 you were discussing Rajlovac.
12 So could I ask the usher for his assistance
13 to show the witness the map that we were using yesterday.
14 Can we proceed, Mr. Kovac?
15 A. Yes, I'm ready now.
16 Q. Mr. Kovac, you showed us where Rajlovac is. Could you now make a
17 circle around it and mark it with a letter "R."
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. You told us yesterday that Brijesce Brdo and Grbavica were under
20 the control of the BH army?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who had control over Rajlovac?
23 A. Rajlovac was under the control of the forces of the Bosnian Serbs.
24 Q. Could you draw the separation line between the two warring parties
25 in this area, between Rajlovac and Sokolje --
1 A. No, I can't do that because I wasn't familiar with that area.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. BLAXILL: We haven't established that he has any knowledge of
4 this particular line that is being questioned about. With respect, I
5 think my learned friend should establish that the witness has any
6 foundation of knowledge upon which to then perform the act which she is
7 asked to perform.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you like to answer on the first
9 of the two issues raised by the Prosecution. The first is that you
10 indicated no time during which the separation line could be there, while
11 questioning. The second one is that the witness has indicated several
12 times that he has no knowledge of the exact situation of separation lines.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand the
14 objection of my learned friends opposite. The witness has marked
15 Rajlovac upon my request. If I have to indicate the time, I am referring
16 to every time I put a question to the witness, I can repeat that I am
17 referring to the period 1992, 1993, 1994. That is while the conflict in
18 Sarajevo was ongoing. The witness, in answer to my question, said he
19 didn't know, and I said thank you.
20 MR. BLAXILL: With respect, I have to raise one further thing. My
21 learned friend has made reference to 1992 in its entirety. I think she
22 should specify precisely when in 1992. It has already been indicated in
23 evidence that lines did change, so we must have a more precise indication
24 of time if any particular thing is going to be marked on a map as being
25 the extant position.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We are talking
3 about the relevant period for which General Galic stands accused, that is,
4 from September 1992 to August 1994.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is that clear enough for the Prosecution, September
7 MR. BLAXILL: There are only the two observations I would make on
8 that, Your Honours. Firstly, that if the witness is to be asked to place
9 something permanently on a map, we should know clearly whether that was a
10 permanent situation throughout the period. The period we now understand
11 on record is September 1992 to August 1994. However, there may have been
12 changes, and it should be made clear, I think, with respect to my learned
13 friend's questioning as to precisely what point, if there are any areas
14 where such features changed.
15 The second one I would submit goes back to the one I mentioned
16 already, there should be foundational questions to establish whether or
17 not the witness in question has adequate knowledge to be requested to
18 mark a map with something which will then go on record as if he had spoken
19 it. And clearly, simply a line on a map does not show whether it has been
20 qualified by an absence or a presence of true knowledge for making that
21 mark. Those are my only observations, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill. As far as your first remark
23 is concerned, I would say that the witness has testified that he can't
24 draw the line, it's useless at this moment to discuss any further what
25 period of time this line would cover. But perhaps for the future,
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13 English transcripts.
1 Ms. Pilipovic, the Prosecution would like to have it as precise as
2 possible in order to avoid any misunderstanding.
3 As far as the second issue is concerned, may I suggest to you --
4 let me first clarify the suggestion I will make to you. I don't know what
5 you want to establish, whether the precise position of the separation
6 lines, if that is your intention, then perhaps a general answer just a
7 suggestion could be whether the witness has any specific knowledge on the
8 separation line and perhaps where he has knowledge -- to what extent he
9 has knowledge of that. If it is your intention to establish whether the
10 witness has any knowledge of separation lines, perhaps this could also be
11 asked to the witness in a more general way. These are just suggestions in
12 order to -- in order to lose no time on issues that can be clarified
13 quicker. Thank you.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence will
15 respond to the issues raised by my learned friend. Regarding the
16 positions, the question was as to whether the lines had changed. The
17 position of my learned friends is that the lines were static throughout
18 the conflict. Secondly, in answer to my question whether he had been
19 interviewed by the investigators on the 3rd of October, 2000, the witness
20 said he had. I showed him yesterday a part of his statement when he said
21 that the Civil Defence was informed through the defence ministry about the
22 positions of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This statement by the
23 witness prompted the Defence to put such questions to the witness as he,
24 himself, said that through the Civil Defence, he had information about
1 Now, to what extent and in what area he was informed about, he
2 will tell us. In answer to my latest question, he said that in this area,
3 he was not informed. He had no knowledge. Also, by putting these
4 questions to the witness, the Defence would like, in view of the position
5 the witness had throughout the duration of the conflict, to check the
6 credibility of this witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. I should like to ask the witness, if he could, to look in the
10 south-westerly direction on the map, and to mark for us what part of town
11 that is, what is the name of this district of Sarajevo?
12 A. I'm afraid I can't orientate myself. What part of you referring
14 Q. South-West in relation to Rajlovac. Go down the map. Tell us if
16 A. You mean this area here?
17 Q. Further down. Or let me put it this way, do you know where Ilidza
18 is, the district of Ilidza? Yes, of course. If you can, will you please
19 mark it and put the letter "I."
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether during the conflict, from
22 September 1992 until August 1994, who controlled Ilidza?
23 A. Ilidza was under the control of the forces of the Bosnian Serbs.
24 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to when the conflict broke out in
1 A. Probably at the beginning of 1992. I think it was in May 1992.
2 Q. Do you know who the parties in conflict were?
3 A. The army and the forces of the Bosnian Serbs, the army of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the forces of the Bosnian Serbs.
5 Q. Will you -- would you agree with me that throughout the duration
6 of the conflict in Sarajevo, separation lines existed, had been
8 A. Not at the beginning.
9 Q. In your view, when were those lines established?
10 A. I think in the middle of 1992, in my opinion, according to
11 information I have.
12 Q. When you say the middle of the year, what do you mean?
13 A. I mean May, June.
14 Q. Would you agree with me that a part of Sarajevo was under the
15 control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
16 A. I don't know what part you're referring to.
17 Q. Well, you have just marked for us the parts of Sarajevo that were
18 under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 A. Most of Sarajevo was under the control of the army of
21 Q. Would you agree with me that within Sarajevo, the municipalities
22 of Centar, Stari Grad, Novi Grad, that there were separation lines there,
24 A. Yes. Separation lines remained in the territory of those
1 Q. Would you agree with me that Sarajevo was a divided city?
2 A. To a smaller extent, it was divided.
3 Q. Would you agree with me that between these two armies, as we have
4 been referring to them, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army of
5 Republika Srpska, that there was constant fighting on a daily basis along
6 the separation lines?
7 A. I wouldn't agree that there was fighting on a daily basis.
8 Q. But was there any fighting?
9 A. Yes, there was fighting.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with respect to the
11 map, the witness -- the Defence has no further questions, and we would
12 like to suggest that the maps, together with the markings made by Mr.
13 Kovac, be tendered into evidence as Defence exhibits.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no objections, this map, this marked
15 map with the black marks on it, is admitted into evidence. And it will
16 bear what number, Madam Registrar?
17 THE REGISTRAR: D7.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Kovac, can you tell us in your opinion when the conflict
20 started in Sarajevo?
21 A. I don't know what you mean by "conflict."
22 Q. Do you have knowledge as to when the conflict at the police school
23 in Vrace occurred?
24 A. I know about that conflict, but I don't know the exact date.
25 Q. Could you tell us which month it was?
1 A. I just know that it was in the first half of 1992.
2 Q. Can you tell us when an immediate threat of war was proclaimed by
3 the Presidency?
4 A. I think it was at the beginning of May, or rather the end of
5 April, 1992. I think that is when it was proclaimed.
6 Q. Let me refresh your memory. Was it on the 5th of April, 1992?
7 A. No, I think it wasn't on that date.
8 Q. Since you told us that you do have knowledge about the conflict at
9 the police school in Vrace, do you know that that was when the police
10 force was divided on an ethnic basis?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer, please.
12 Q. Do you know what happened on the 1st of March, 1992 at Bas
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. In March and April 1992 and somewhat later, do you know that the
16 population was moving out of Sarajevo?
17 A. In March and April?
18 Q. Yes. And May.
19 A. No. In May, yes.
20 Q. When in May did the population start to move out of Sarajevo?
21 When in May, the first half of May or the second half of May?
22 A. If I remember correctly, I think it was the first half of May when
23 the operations started. That is when the war started in terms of its
25 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please ask again your
1 question which appears on page 17, line 24, because interpreter couldn't
2 get the answer.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do you know that at the Vrace police school, there was a conflict,
5 and that the police force was divided on ethnic lines?
6 A. Should I answer that question?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. In answer to your question, I learned about it from the media.
9 That's what I said. I learned about it through the media.
10 Q. Did you learn from the media that on the 1st of March, 1992, a
11 civilian was killed at Bas Carsija who was in a wedding group, and do you
12 know that he was killed by Ramiz Dalalic as was reported by the media?
13 A. I remember that event and I learned about it from the media
15 Q. Were barricades put up then?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You told us that the conflict broke out in May. Between whom in
18 May did the conflict break out?
19 A. Well, probably between the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the
20 forces of the Bosnian Serbs.
21 Q. When was the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina formed officially? Do you
22 know that?
23 A. I don't have specific knowledge about it, but I can say that it
24 was sometime at the end of April 1992. I just know that before that,
25 there was the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
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13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Apart from the Territorial Defence, which other units joined to
2 form the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Do you know that?
3 A. Units of the HVO, I think, some units.
4 Q. You talked to us yesterday about units that had their leaders such
5 as Juka Prazina, Musan Topalovic. Do you know that those units also
6 became part of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
7 A. Probably they did, but I have no specific knowledge about that.
8 Q. Do you know that the military police also became part of the army
9 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
10 A. Probably, they did.
11 Q. In view of the fact that you lived at Alipasino Polje, do you know
12 that the commander of the military police at Dobrinja was Kerim
13 Loncarevic, known as "Doctor"?
14 A. I had learned about Kerim Loncarevic as commander, but I learned
15 through the media. But I didn't know where he was located nor which unit
16 he was the commander.
17 Q. When did you learn that from the media?
18 A. In the first half of 1992.
19 Q. When did the planning for the activities of the Civil Defence --
20 when was it made in view of the situation that was in force?
21 A. Plans for the activities of the Civil Defence were made on the
22 basis of an assessment of the situation, that is, an assessment of the
23 situation that existed with respect to the situation and the conditions of
24 life of the civilian population.
25 Q. At the level of the Civil Defence staff, the one you were in, was
1 there a commander of the Civil Defence?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was his rank? Was he commander of the Civil Defence of
4 Sarajevo or did you have commanders by municipalities?
5 A. There were staffs by municipalities, that is, commanders at the
6 level of municipalities.
7 Q. You told us that through your commissioners, you distributed
8 humanitarian aid to the population?
9 A. Yes. And we informed them about humanitarian aid.
10 Q. Who made out the lists?
11 A. You mean of the population?
12 Q. Yes, of the persons, the civilians that were going to receive
13 humanitarian aid.
14 A. The lists were made by Civil Defence commissioners by buildings
15 and neighbourhoods.
16 Q. Throughout the time you held that position, and I'm referring to
17 the period from April 1992 until the end of the conflict in Sarajevo, were
18 you wearing a uniform, the kind you described yesterday?
19 A. Not all the time.
20 Q. When did you start wearing it?
21 A. I wore it at the beginning of the war, and then for a while I wore
22 civilian clothes because the uniform had got worn out.
23 Q. What about other members of Civil Defence? Did they also wear
25 A. Yes, they wore the uniforms left over from the former Civil
1 Defence, if I can put it that way, the Civil Defence that was operational
2 before the war. These were uniforms that people held at home. In fact,
3 they were blue overalls with the symbol of the Civil Defence on them.
4 Q. Were they suits or overalls?
5 A. They were suits, I'm sorry.
6 Q. Did members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina wear such uniforms?
7 A. No.
8 Q. While performing your duties as head of the Civil Defence staff
9 for Novi Grad, did you have any discussions with the civilians, with the
10 population? Did they come to see you asking for assistance, to complain
11 about shortages of water, electricity and so on?
12 A. Yes, there were such conversations, but we would also frequently
13 tour the local communities. And through our commissioners, we would be
14 briefed on problems locally.
15 Q. Through your commissioners, did you personally have information
16 from the inhabitants to the effect that their family members were being
17 arrested and taken in an unknown direction?
18 A. No, I did not receive any such information.
19 Q. You told us that the distribution of humanitarian aid was
20 conducted at certain localities, and that those spots or points were
21 changed from time to time. Do you happen to know that humanitarian aid
22 was distributed to civilians at the separation line?
23 A. No. I have no knowledge of that kind. That would have been too
25 Q. Did you know that at Dobrinja and Alipasino Polje, and more
1 specifically, on the square which was the Zavnobih square, whether there
2 were apartment buildings acting as prisons where Serbs were imprisoned?
3 A. No, I had no information to that effect.
4 Q. Did you know that at Alipasino Polje, on that particular square,
5 there was a cafe called the Borsalino cafe?
6 A. Before the war, yes, the Borsalino coffee bar did exist in
7 Alipasino Polje settlement.
8 Q. Was the cafe working during the war?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Do you happen to know with respect to your municipality how many
11 in percentages were Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, the percentages for the
13 A. Are you referring to before the war?
14 Q. Yes. Before the war, during the war, and after the war, if you
15 can tell us, please.
16 A. Before the war -- I'm giving you rough figures. I can't give you
17 the exact figures. I don't have them. But roughly speaking, before the
18 war, there were approximately 65 percent Bosniaks, 25 percent Serbs, and
19 approximately 8 to 10 percent were Croats and others. A small negligible
20 percentage of miscellaneous. That would be my assessment.
21 Q. How about after the war?
22 A. After the war, that figure was reduced. When I say reduced, I
23 mean that the number of Bosniaks increased, in fact, whereas the number of
24 Serbs decreased, and the number of Croats decreased somewhat as well. I
25 think that today in the Novi Grad municipality, there are approximately
1 15 percent Serbs and approximately 5 to 6 percent Croats, and the rest
2 would be various, depending on how they declared themselves.
3 Q. Your Civil Defence staffs, did they have units?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Which units were they?
6 A. They were Civil Defence units of a general purpose.
7 Q. Were they specialised units?
8 A. Not in the local communities, no.
9 Q. And at the level of the municipality?
10 A. There was a special unit for protection against fire.
11 Q. And the specialised unit against fire, what was the national
12 composition of that unit?
13 A. I think that there were approximately 70 percent Bosniaks,
14 approximately 25 percent were Serbs, and 5 percent were Croats.
15 Q. How did you come by those figures, on the basis of what data?
16 A. Well, it is my free assessment on the basis of the people I knew,
17 although we would never strictly divide people up according to their
18 ethnic group.
19 Q. You told us that Sarajevo had the problem of sniping.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were sniper incidents reported to you personally?
22 A. No, because that doesn't come under our competencies and
24 Q. Did you happen to know that on the high-rise buildings in the old
25 part of town and in the centre of town of the city of Sarajevo, like the
1 Energoinvest building, the executive council building, the Momo & Uzeir
2 building, and the electricity board building, that there were sniper nests
3 at the top of these buildings and that they were snipers belonging to the
4 Muslim army? Do you know that?
5 A. No, I did not know that.
6 Q. You spoke to us about the problem of shelling in Sarajevo
8 A. May I correct something with respect to the Muslim army that you
9 asked a moment ago? It was not the Muslim army. It was the army of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Because when you say "Muslim," then that determines
11 the composition of that army.
12 Q. You noticed that in my questions, I usually referred to it as the
13 BH army.
14 Could you tell me something about the problem of shelling? When
15 did the shelling occur in the course of the day or night, give us a time?
16 A. Well it's difficult to say when and determine the time. Sometime
17 the shellings would start early on at dawn, at daybreak, and would go on
18 until 12.00 noon. There would be a lull until 3.00 or 4.00, and then the
19 shelling would continue and would go on until 10.00 p.m. or maybe 11.00
21 Q. Is it possible to distinguish between the intensity of the
22 shelling during the day and its intensity at night?
23 A. Well, it's difficult to note any difference. If the shelling
24 started at night, then it would go on until the early morning hours. And
25 quite certainly, according to physical laws, sounds are much stronger --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the sounds of shelling is much stronger during the night, much louder. So
2 that the shelling in the course of the night caused greater unrest and
3 fear in town, although the people were in shelters.
4 Q. You told us yesterday that there was frequent shelling, and you
5 said that it would be usually early in the morning and go on the whole
6 day, or that it would begin in early evening and go on throughout the
8 A. There were periods like that as well.
9 Q. Can you tell us, when you hear shelling in the course of the
10 night, could you tell who was doing the shelling?
11 A. Well, you could hear the shots being fired because at night,
12 especially after midnight, it was generally quiet. That is a natural law,
13 I suppose, that it's quieter at night. And then you could hear the
14 shooting coming from the surrounding hills first, which broke this
15 silence, especially from Trebevic. And after that, judging by the sounds
16 of the shells, you could tell which settlement was being targeted or where
17 the targeting -- the shooting was coming from. If you were at the
18 positions at Alipasino Polje, for example, when the shelling was going on,
19 you could hear very well the shooting of -- shells being shot from guns
20 and artillery pieces from the Trebevic locality. Three to four seconds
21 later, you could hear the whiz-whiz of a shell, which would then explode
22 somewhere nearby. It would have its destructive power several instances
24 May I just add, what is important here to note is that the
25 calibres were stronger, large calibres, and they were -- they reverberated
1 in the settlement. When the shell hit an object, the high-rise buildings
2 and apartment buildings would tremble and shake, and the people who were
3 living in those buildings at the time were never sure that they would
5 Q. Looking at the geographic position of Sarajevo, and you said the
6 surrounding hills, does Sarajevo's geographic position allow you to
7 determine what direction the shell is coming from?
8 A. From certain locations, yes, because some artillery weapons were
9 placed above the town itself on the hills surrounding the city, whereas
10 the artillery pieces that were used for indirect targeting were behind the
11 hills surrounding the city.
12 Q. You were very precise and specific in answering that question.
13 Where do you get that knowledge from, from the media, or did you visit
14 those positions?
15 A. No, this is knowledge I obtained from people who were
16 professionals in that field. And if you call them as witnesses, I'm sure
17 they will be able to tell this august Trial Chamber about what happened in
18 much greater detail.
19 Q. Did you personally hear the sound of a shell or just the
21 A. Personally, during -- from 1992 to 1994, I heard the whizzing by
22 of shells, and it is a very specific sound that instills fear. It is a
23 very frightening sound.
24 Q. You said that you received humanitarian aid through humanitarian
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Which humanitarian organisations did you cooperate with on the
3 territory of your municipality?
4 A. There was a system by which humanitarian aid was brought in and
5 it went via the municipal staff and was dispatched to the staffs of the
6 Civil Defence organisation in the local communities. Because at the level
7 of the municipal staff and headquarters, we organised the vehicles for
8 transporting the aid and the people to do it, and people directly drove
9 the humanitarian aid to the different local communities and distributed
11 Q. On your own municipality, were there organisations which produced
12 food or clothing, manufactured clothing, to supply the civilian population
14 A. I mentioned the sewing workshops that we set up to help the
15 population, the tailoring establishments to supply the population with
16 clothes. And we received food exclusively through the UNHCR.
17 Q. You said that the tailoring workshops that were set up sewed
18 clothing. Did they also sew uniforms for the soldiers of the BH army?
19 A. No.
20 Q. As you cooperated with the headquarters of the BH army, could you
21 tell us where those headquarters were located?
22 A. I don't know what area you have in mind. For what area and what
23 level of organisation do you mean?
24 Q. I mean at the level of the brigades and at the level of corps, and
25 the main staff as well.
1 A. We maintained contacts through the municipal staff and
2 headquarters, and then at the level of the president of the municipality,
3 if it was necessary to meet and discuss matters of general importance for
4 the defence of the town.
5 Q. What was the main body that you coordinated with which was in
6 charge of the defence of the town, that you had meetings with?
7 A. As far as the defence of the town was concerned, the military
8 body, the main military body, and that was the 1st Corps, the 1st Corps of
9 the BH army. As far as our relationship with the corps was concerned, it
10 went via the municipal staff for Civil Defence and its headquarters.
11 Q. When was the general mobilisation proclaimed?
12 A. Well, if I remember correctly, it was sometime at the end of April
13 and beginning of May 1992.
14 Q. At the level of the municipalities and the town, were crisis
15 staffs or war staffs set up?
16 A. You're asking about staffs? No, there were [Realtime transcript
17 read in error "presidents"] presidencies. I remember that presidencies
19 Q. As you said that you had contact with the 1st Corps of the army of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina as the highest military body and authority in Sarajevo,
21 what about your municipality, what centre did you have contacts with?
22 A. We didn't contact any military centre because no military existed
23 for the municipality level.
24 MR. BLAXILL: Could I interrupt for a second. I think there is a
25 mistranscript at line 8 of this page 29. I think the response of the
1 witness is "presidencies," as opposed to "presidents."
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I noted that as well. I thought it would be
3 corrected overnight. I think Ms. Pilipovic will also agree that it was
4 "presidencies" instead of "presidents."
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Do you know which --
6 MR. BLAXILL: I'm sorry to do it again. There is a gap as well, I
7 see, line 7 of the transcript of this page, there is an answer given which
8 was a question, and then there is a "Q" followed by a blank. It comes
9 just before the answer, "No, there were presidents." So we have a problem
10 there as well.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As far as I remember, the witness continued his
12 answering, although Ms. Pilipovic tried to formulate her next question.
13 But if necessary, I think we could hear the audiotape later on. I don't
14 think it will create great misunderstandings if we continue. Please
15 proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. My question was: Do you happen to know what artillery pieces the
18 corps of the BH army had?
19 A. No.
20 Q. During the conflict from September 1992 and in 1993, did you
21 happen to see or notice a tank that was in the tunnel at the Ciglana
23 A. No.
24 Q. How in your municipality did you regulate the question of repairs
25 for the water supply system and power supply system?
1 A. There were services from the water supply service and the power
2 supply service, and they were in charge of each municipality. Actually,
3 there were professional men who, in cooperation with the local Civil
4 Defence units, dealt with any breakdowns in the system. And the members
5 of the Civil Defence would help them physically in putting the matter
6 right, whereas these professionals would actually undertake the repair
8 Q. What about the transformer stations which supplied your
9 municipality with electricity? Where were they located? In what part of
11 A. Well, there were a number of transformer stations. Every
12 settlement had its own transformer station, and in one settlement, there
13 would even be several transformer stations.
14 Q. And you were successful in dealing with the breakdowns of the
16 A. Well, we cooperated with professional teams. And when there was
17 electricity -- because there were frequent power cuts, and for some
18 periods, the town would be left without any electricity at all for longer
20 Q. What about gas? Did you have gas?
21 A. In one period, yes.
22 Q. And when was that?
23 A. I think that was until the beginning of the winter of 1992.
24 Q. And after that, there was no more gas?
25 A. Well, it would come and go. Mostly we didn't have any gas. I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 would say that there was an absence of gas, rather than not.
2 Q. As the head of Civil Defence, do you happen to know that the
3 population of Sarajevo were not able to leave the town without a permit
4 authorizing them to do so?
5 A. No, no, I don't know about that. That was probably under the
6 competence of some other service or organ.
7 Q. But do you know that such services existed, or rather, how could
8 people leave town? What did they need if they wanted to leave town?
9 A. I really don't know about that.
10 Q. As you are the head of the Civil Defence staff for the Sarajevo
11 canton at present, could you tell us: In the canton of Sarajevo, if you
12 happen to have the information, how many Serbs are there, how many Muslims
13 or Bosniaks, and how many Croats, if you can answer that, please?
14 A. Before I answer your question, I should like to clarify the
15 situation for the Trial Chamber. I think that during the war, especially
16 at the beginning of the war, there was an exodus of Serbs from Sarajevo.
17 But I have to state that a large number of people of Serb ethnicity also
18 stayed on in Sarajevo. Many left, but many stayed. Those who left, left,
19 I think, for a number of reasons. Some were asked to leave and to join
20 those who did not agree with the then policy and politics. Others left
21 from fear; they were afraid of the war. And others stayed on, together
22 with the other ethnic groups and people to bear the burden of war.
23 All of us together esteem very highly of those people who stayed
24 on. To answer your question, I have to explain to the Trial Chamber how
25 the situation was in general, which had an effect and determined the
1 number of Serbs who stayed, the present figures. So on the basis of these
2 facts and figures, in order to answer the question I have just been asked
3 and to give it legal strength in the determination of certain facts, the
4 essential thing is to see the reason for the Serbs leaving Sarajevo during
5 the war, why they left.
6 I remember a programme at the beginning of the war where the
7 leaders of the Bosnian Serbs --
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was a
9 very simple one. All I asked him was whether the witness knows how many
10 Serbs are now living in Sarajevo, and Bosniaks, Muslims, Croats. That was
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, the question was rather limited, and you
13 give a lot of explanation, perhaps, on what finally will be your answer.
14 But perhaps if you would restrict yourself to first answering the
15 question. If a further explanation is asked, I'm quite sure that counsel
16 will do so. Thank you.
17 A. I think that at present in the city, if you're thinking of the
18 situation at present, a large number -- well, not a large number, but a
19 substantial number of Serbs are coming back to the city of Sarajevo.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could you just tell us how many, if you know. If you do not, say
22 you do not know.
23 A. I think the percentage now is between 20 and 25 percent.
24 Q. And one more question: What was -- what purpose did the tunnel
25 serve? What was its function in Sarajevo? And do you know who dug the
2 A. In order to answer your question, I have to explain some facts to
3 the Trial Chamber.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before doing so, I'd just like to know from
5 Ms. Pilipovic how much more time she would need for cross-examination, or
6 was is this your last question?
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] This is my last question. I would
8 just like the witness to answer and to tell me when the tunnel was made
9 and whether he knows who took part in digging the tunnel. That's all. So
10 just a very short question, whether he knows it or not.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, would you please answer this question.
12 And whether there are any other questions, we will see then.
13 A. As far as I know, the tunnel was dug sometime at the end of the
14 first half of 1993.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. And do you know who did the digging?
17 A. The units whose work obligation it was.
18 Q. What was the national composition of the units doing this work
20 A. The ethnic affiliation was not a question that was considered.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
22 further questions.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just give me one second.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Before having a break, would the Prosecution -- is
1 the Prosecution in need of further re-examination, not to start it right
2 away, but just in order to know?
3 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, Your Honour. There is just one small area we
4 would like to address, and I'm sure we will be most brief in so doing. I
5 have about two or three questions all of which require only a short
6 answer. After the break, if you prefer, of course.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I prefer to do it after the break. We will have a
8 break now, if you could please guide the witness out of the courtroom, and
9 bring Mr. Galic out of the courtroom. We'll have a break until 4.15 p.m.
10 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you concluded the cross-examination of
13 Mr. Kovac.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the
15 Defence would have one more question for the witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: If you say one more, I'll allow that. You may
17 proceed once the witness has been --
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.
20 Mr. Kovac, the Defence has asked to put one more question to you,
21 which was allowed to them.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Kovac, you told us that the tunnel was dug in 1993. Would you
24 just tell us, please, the position of the tunnel and who organised the
25 able-bodied persons who were under work obligation, as you said, to dig
1 that tunnel?
2 A. I really don't know who organised it. It was probably at a higher
4 Q. Which level?
5 A. Probably of the state.
6 Q. Was it the military or members of the Civil Defence?
7 A. I'm unable to say.
8 Q. And what was the purpose of digging that tunnel?
9 A. What I can say is that when the tunnel was dug through, there was
10 more food because there was a shortage of food in town. We received
11 humanitarian aid that was limited in quantity.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That was
13 the question that I asked to put to the witness. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic. The Prosecution now has
15 an opportunity to re-examine the witness.
16 MR. BLAXILL: Mr. President, Your Honours, thank you.
17 Re-examined by Mr. Blaxill:
18 Q. I just have a couple of questions that actually go back to the
19 days of your training as a military policeman in compulsory service. I
20 believe you said to my learned friend that there were different
21 types of policemen in time of peace and in time of war. Can you tell us
22 what the differences in the duties were in times of peace or in times of
23 war for military policemen?
24 A. If we're talking about regular military service and how I was
25 trained in the unit as a military policeman, there were peacetime and
1 wartime duties. The peacetime duties were daily duties which were carried
2 out also by the civilian police but it related only to military
3 personnel, that is, to members of the army, ordinary soldiers and
4 officers. If we're talking about wartime duties, the military police was
5 trained to carry out special tasks which could not be carried out by
6 regular soldiers. Their duties were to engage in some smaller scale but
7 specific wartime assignments. It's something like attempts to break into
8 the territory under the control of that army as a group, the elimination
9 of certain military targets, which were specific to that military unit.
10 Those would roughly be the differences.
11 MR. BLAXILL: Excuse me, Your Honours.
12 Q. Now, I believe you agreed, I think, with my learned friend when
13 she put the question that the peacetime duties certainly of military
14 police included patrolling and arresting military personnel for discipline
15 and other matters, criminal matters. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, sir, in accordance with your training, who would give the
18 orders to military police officers to perform an arrest?
19 A. Their superiors.
20 Q. Who would those superiors be? Would they be within the military
21 police or would they be other superiors within the armed forces?
22 A. Depending on the command, whether it was under the brigade or a
23 larger military unit that the military police was in. Within the
24 framework of those military formations, there were security departments,
25 and those orders would be issued by the officers in command of those
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 departments. In my view, those would be, as far as I understood, on the
2 basis of my military service, were the heads of security who were part of
3 the command. They were members of the command of a particular unit.
4 Q. So when a police or a military officer performed an arrest, to
5 whom was that military police officer ordered to hand over the person that
6 he had arrested?
7 A. All I can say is based on my experience from my military service
8 days, serving in the former Yugoslav people's army. For instance, it
9 depended on the case. Persons were taken into custody to the unit and
10 escorted to units of the former Yugoslav people's army from which they
11 came. For instance, if they had fled from the unit - we had such cases -
12 or if they had committed any criminal offence, then there were military
14 Q. I see. Now, taking account you've described additional wartime
15 duties, did the military police still perform those discipline,
16 patrolling, and arrest duties in time of war?
17 A. You mean the war in Bosnia?
18 Q. Or in accordance with your training, in a time of war, would
19 military police officers still perform the same duties as they performed
20 in peacetime and then have additional duties that you've described?
21 A. Their duty is to assist, or rather to keep the situation in check
22 in wartime, probably together with all others, to prevent any disorder or
23 anything like that.
24 Q. And would, therefore, military police have the same powers of
25 arrest in accordance with your training, the same powers of arrest in
1 wartime as they would have had in peacetime?
2 A. I don't know the answer to that question. Probably yes.
3 MR. BLAXILL: That actually concludes my re-examination,
4 Your Honours. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Blaxill. One of the Judges
6 will put questions to the witness, Mr. Kovac.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Mr. Kovac, at the beginning of your testimony,
9 you mentioned different types of bullets. We all know that the use of
10 certain types of bullets is forbidden by international law. My question
11 is, do you know whether those forbidden bullets were used by the parties
12 during the war?
13 A. I am unable to say. I don't know. Possibly they were, but I
14 don't know because I had no personal knowledge about that.
15 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Have you heard about, for example, dumdum
17 A. Yes, I have heard.
18 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Did you use dumdum bullets when you were in
19 your compulsory service?
20 A. We didn't use them, but our superiors in the former Yugoslav
21 People's Army told us about those types of weapons. We studied about them
22 in books, but we didn't use them, nor did -- nor were such bullets used
23 during exercises or target shooting when they were organised.
24 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Elmahdi, do you have any additional questions
1 to put to the witness?
2 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovac, I'm aware of the great
3 burden that you have suffered during the past two days, but I would like,
4 if you could, obtain some information from you regarding three points:
5 The first has to do with the media to which you referred on a number of
6 occasions. You said, "Yes, I learned such and such a thing through the
7 media." Which media were you referring to? Were they the media -- the
8 national media, international media? Could you clarify that point a
9 little for us, please.
10 A. With respect to the media, there were regular programmes on the
11 radio and television when there was electricity. So the TV could be
12 watched when there was electricity, and the radio when the electricity was
13 cut. So these were the regular daily information programmes which, in
14 addition to local news, also carried news reports from CNN and other
15 international broadcasters.
16 Those were the state-controlled media, which, in my view, were up
17 to the standards required for an objective and timely information of the
19 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kovac. Another
20 question, if you don't mind: You said, and I quote -- I will do it in
21 English. [In English] "The Land Registry Department took with them part
22 of the documentation and the maps from Sarajevo, and probably it was those
23 maps that they used to be able to ascertain with great precision where
24 these locations were."
25 [Interpretation] My question is the following: For you, this
1 taking of documents and maps, is it something you are sure of based on
2 concrete knowledge, or is it simply your conclusion? Is it a personal
3 opinion that you have? Thank you.
4 A. This conclusion regarding documents which depicted the
5 infrastructural position of various facilities in the municipalities was
6 based on the statements made by people who used to work in the Land
7 Registry Departments of the municipalities within the city.
8 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] So you heard people talking about
9 certain documents being taken; is that right?
10 A. [No interpretation]
11 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And my last question,
12 if you don't mind, you also said - and I quote in English again - [In
13 English]: "Some of the inhabitants of the Novi Grad municipality had left
14 following certain directives."
15 [Interpretation] Who gave those directions and who left?
16 A. The reference is to primarily the departure of the Serb population
17 from the city. And this quotation is based on the fact that at the
18 beginning of the war, the leadership, the political leadership of the
19 Bosnian Serbs had called on the Sarajevan Serbs to come out of the city
20 saying that Sarajevo was not their homeland, and that they would be better
21 off in their native towns and places outside Sarajevo, that they would be
22 more comfortable. This was published in the media, and I think this was
23 at the beginning of the war in the prime-time newscast.
24 JUDGE ELMAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovac, I've just two small questions for you.
1 You have been talking about a tunnel, not being able to say exactly where
2 it was. Could you say perhaps in more general terms, the tunnel was
3 connecting what to what?
4 A. If one views the position of the tunnel in logical terms, and it
5 went from the neighbourhood of Dobrinja, or rather, C5, towards the
6 neighbourhood of Butmir, so it would be logical to assume that people who
7 were making these assessments as to where a necessary entry and exit point
8 for the city should be made, came to the conclusion that that would be the
9 most suitable location, and the tunnel went beneath the Sarajevo airport.
10 That is where the separation lines probably were more considerable, so
11 that this area, from the security standpoint regarding the movement of
12 people through that tunnel, was safer.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You already answered my second question: underneath
14 what the tunnel was. If there are no more questions from my colleagues, I
15 would like to thank you, Mr. Kovac, from coming from so far in order to
16 answer the questions of the parties and of this Chamber. Thank you very
17 much for coming.
18 Mr. Usher, would you please bring the witness out of the
20 [Witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, who is the next witness you're calling?
22 MR. IERACE: Milan Mandilovic.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. I'll ask the usher to bring
24 the witness in.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Mr. Mandilovic, do you hear me in a
2 language which you understand?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hear you, Mr. President, yes.
4 THE COURT: Mr. Mandilovic, Rule 90(a) requires you, being called
5 as a witness by the Prosecution, to give a solemn declaration in which the
6 text will be handed over to you. And may I invite you to make this solemn
8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: MILAN MANDILOVIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mandilovic. Mr. Blaxill?
13 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, it will be I, again, with your leave.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed in your examination of the witness.
15 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you.
16 Examined by Mr. Blaxill:
17 Q. Sir, would you be so kind as to give your full name to the
19 A. Milan Mandilovic.
20 Q. Could you say, please, where and when you were born?
21 A. On the 16th of June, 1949 in Novi Sad.
22 Q. Can you tell me where Novi Sad is, please.
23 A. Serbia, the autonomous province of Vojvodina.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us very briefly in what
25 profession you are qualified.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I'm a doctor, physician, a general practitioner, and a specialist
2 for ear, nose, and throat.
3 Q. And where do you currently practise, Doctor?
4 A. I currently practise in the state hospital or rather, today, it is
5 called the general hospital in Sarajevo.
6 Q. Could you tell us when you moved from Serbia to Sarajevo?
7 A. When I was four years old.
8 Q. After you had qualified in the medical profession, in what context
9 did you practice your profession?
10 A. When I graduated from the faculty of medicine, I did my compulsory
11 medical training in Sarajevo. And after that, I did my military service
12 as a doctor serving in the military hospital in Meljine, which is in the
13 former socialist republic of Montenegro. After that, upon completing my
14 military service, I responded to a competition for posts inside the
15 Yugoslav people's army, and I got the post as general in the Sarajevo
16 Garrison, or rather the Sarajevo Garrison infirmary.
17 Q. And can you say when it was that you started to take up your
18 duties then in the Sarajevo Garrison?
19 A. In August 1978.
20 Q. Thank you. And did the JNA have a military hospital in Sarajevo
21 at that time?
22 A. Yes, it did.
23 Q. And was there a presence of a JNA military hospital right the way
24 up to the beginning of 1992?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. And Doctor, we have already heard in this Chamber that in about
2 May 1992, the war started in Sarajevo. What is your -- very briefly, your
3 recollection of what was happening in Sarajevo at that time, at the
4 beginning of May 1992?
5 A. Let me tell you: The situation was difficult in the city of
6 Sarajevo but the difficult situation began earlier on, right at the start
7 of the year 1992. The situation was unstable. There was tension, and
8 there was an era of expectation and uncertainty and insecurity. And that
9 was the situation as of January. It went through February and March, and
10 all this escalated slowly.
11 Q. Was there a time that it became an open conflict of some
13 A. Individual conflicts were frequent, particularly in the month of
14 April. But I think as far as I see it, and as far as I remember, they
15 were individual conflicts, and later on, there was a real escalation
16 sometime on the 6th of April, around about the 6th of April. And then
17 tensions grew, the situation came to a head. And in May, there was a
18 substantially different situation, one which spoke absolutely of -- was --
19 a situation of war was manifest, became absolutely manifest at that time.
20 Q. When you say a situation of war became manifest, could you tell me
21 whether that had anything to do with any shelling, artillery shelling?
22 A. Yes, that's right. It did. But artillery shelling of the city
23 during that period of time was far smaller than it was to be later on. I
24 apologise. We're talking about April and the start of May, 1992.
25 Q. I've moved into the month of May 1992. Did this shelling
1 situation persist up to the end of that year?
2 A. Yes, it did. And it escalated.
3 Q. And at the time in May, what was the status of the JNA hospital
4 you were working in? Was it still a military hospital?
5 A. The military hospital had the kind of status that it did up until
6 the 12th or the 14th of May. I can't quite remember from the passage of
7 time what the exact dates were. But the Yugoslav People's Army or the
8 cadres of the Yugoslav people's army, to be more exact, according to their
9 own volition left the hospital. From that time on, the military hospital
10 changed its title, and it became the state hospital.
11 Q. Did it fall under any kind of alternative military control, or did
12 it fall under civilian administration when it changed its status?
13 A. It fell under civilian administration. The management of the
14 hospital was made up of civilians, doctors who had worked in the hospital
15 prior to that and who had stayed on in the hospital, remained there.
16 Q. And in fact, is that what you did, Doctor, stay on?
17 A. Yes, I did. But I wasn't a member of the management.
18 Q. Now, Doctor, if I may, could I take you forward to September of
19 1992 and the winter that went from 1992 to 1993. Now, at that time, what
20 was the situation as regards shelling or any other kind of shooting and
21 any effects it may have had on or around the hospital?
22 A. As time passed, so the situation in town became more complicated
23 in the negative sense. The shelling of the town became more frequent and
24 sniping started as well. And as a direct consequence of that, we saw
25 successively an increasing number of casualties, both from the sniping and
1 from the mortar projectiles and their dispersive effects.
2 Q. Doctor, I would like to ask you more about that later. In the
3 meantime, can you tell us whether in 1992 - this is from September
4 onwards - the hospital buildings themselves suffered any damage from these
6 A. Yes, they did. The hospital building itself was on several
7 occasions directly hit with certain types of projectiles, so that the
8 facade of the hospital, the windows - the glass of the windows - all that
9 was damaged and destroyed, shattered. And that could be seen from the
10 photographs taken of that period. All the hospital floors - and there
11 were 12 of them - were devastated in one way or another.
12 Q. When you speak to the facade of the hospital, in which direction
13 did that facade face? Can you say what areas were in front of it?
14 A. The broader facade of the hospital faced north and south. The
15 narrower sides faced west and east. The southern side, the southern
16 facade of the hospital, was mostly damaged, although damage did exist
17 on the eastern and western facades as well.
18 Later on, after 1992, the facade on the northerly side was also
19 damaged but to a lesser extent.
20 Q. And in towards which areas did the southern side of the hospital
21 face? Can you give us the names of any of the areas facing you?
22 A. The south side of the hospital in general terms faces the reaches
23 of the mountain or rather hill of Trebevic, which is in the immediate
24 vicinity of the town. And we can also mention opposite the hospital is
25 the Jewish cemetery, and a little more westerly, there's another
1 settlement and a small elevation which was called Vrace.
2 Q. Can you tell us in which district, in which district the Jewish
3 cemetery is located?
4 A. The Jewish cemetery is located at the same altitude as the
5 hospital across the Mijecka River at the start of the slopes of Mount
7 Q. And those areas you're referring to opposite the hospital, who
8 actually held at that time, at the end of 1992, who or what forces held
9 the area of the Jewish cemetery and the parts of Trebevic you are talking
11 A. They were the forces of the army of Republika Srpska.
12 Q. And about how far in a direct line from the hospital were the --
13 let us say the confrontation or separation lines, do you recall at that
14 time, the end of 1992?
15 A. I would say that they were about 300 to 400 metres as the crow
17 Q. And I believe you said that is on the south side of the hospital?
18 A. The south side, yes, that's right.
19 Q. Were there any other confrontation lines in the -- well, close to
20 the hospital, say, on the east, the west, or the north?
21 A. Yes, of course there were. Yes, because the city of Sarajevo is
22 not a large city in terms of space, and these were mostly in the old part
23 of town, the centre of town, and parts closer to the old part of town so
24 that, in practical terms, towards the east is the end of town, which is
25 encircled by mountains. And so quite certainly, towards the east of the
1 hospital, there were military conflicts going on.
2 Q. Were any other areas of military conflict quite as close to the
3 hospital as the one you've referred to where the Jewish cemetery was 300
4 to 400 metres away?
5 A. Could you restate -- rephrase your question? I'm not sure I
6 understood it.
7 Q. Let me put another way. You've referred to the lines on the
8 south side of the hospital as 300 to 400 metres. Were any other
9 confrontation lines as close to the hospital as those ones?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have an objection to make,
11 Mr. President, for the same reasons that were expounded a moment ago by my
12 learned friend. One must be certain of the time and period. If we're
13 asking questions, we must limit the question in terms of time, what period
14 of time is my learned friend referring to.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when I look at line 15 of page 47,
16 it indicates to me that the questioning is about the end of 1992. You
17 mean that we need any further specification or... ?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say is that
19 we have a succession of questions, a chain of questions, so I would like
20 to know whether we're still talking about the same period. That's all.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please verify whether we are still in the
23 same time era.
24 MR. BLAXILL: I'm talking exclusively at this time of the period
25 September 1992 through to the spring of 1993. And all questions at this
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 point in time, Your Honours, are related to that period and that period
3 Q. Having said that, there is just one question on a personal basis I
4 will ask you. As you had stayed in the city up to September 1992,
5 Dr. Mandilovic, had you ever felt at any time that you were free to leave
6 the city if you had wanted to?
7 A. I don't think I could leave the city as and when I wanted to. I
8 didn't want to leave, but even if I had, I don't think I could have.
9 Q. And could you give an indication as to why you feel that way?
10 A. I think it was because you couldn't leave town in any safety.
11 Q. Thank you. Dr. Mandilovic, we are talking of the winter
12 1992/1993. Can you tell us what the conditions were as a practising
13 surgeon in that hospital to go about your profession? What was the
14 position regarding your supplies and your working conditions at that time?
15 A. Generally speaking, the situation in the hospital was difficult,
16 and we can divide it up into two -- the question can be divided up into
17 two sectors, two parts. First, there was no energy, electricity, and the
18 other requirements for the functioning of the hospital. I'm thinking of
19 fuel, electricity, and water. So that is a vital aspect for the normal
20 functioning of a hospital. Without electricity, you cannot have your
21 state of the art machines used. You have a generator, but without fuel to
22 set it into operation, the generator will not work either. Water is a
23 separate issue, and we know how important water is for hygiene. So three
24 vital elements were very much reduced. That is one side of the question.
25 The other side is the medical instruments and medicines. Complex
1 injuries on a daily basis had to be taken care of, and they required
2 post-operative treatment with the use of medicines. It is quite certain
3 that when you are lacking in sufficient supplies and the proper medicines,
4 that treatment will be far more difficult, or rather the chances of
5 treating the patients successfully are lower. And as far as equipment is
6 concerned, equipment is something that is used daily and it has to be
7 repaired and renewed on a regular basis, and we were not able to do that
8 under the prevailing conditions.
9 So that in the process of diagnostics, you were handicapped.
10 Q. Now --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President, and
12 I apologise for rising to my feet again. The witness still has not
13 answered the penultimate question posed by the Prosecution.
14 JUDGE ORIE: What question do you exactly mean, then,
15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I meant the one asked by
17 Mr. Blaxill which was formulated, I think it was the penultimate one. It
18 was the one, at any rate, on line -- that is, page 48, between the top and
19 bottom of page 48, Mr. President, or to be more specific, it was lines 9
20 and 10 of page 48.
21 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: I noticed that, but is it up to the Prosecutor
22 to get the answer.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree. If a witness doesn't answer a question,
24 then, of course the Defence is in a position while cross-examining to come
25 back to that same question and see whether it can get an answer if the
1 Defence thinks they need an answer to that question. Although in general
2 terms, I would say that usually witnesses are answering questions of those
3 who examine them.
4 You may proceed, Mr. Blaxill.
5 MR. BLAXILL: At some appropriate time I may just address that
6 issue in a proper context and clarify if it's causing concern.
7 Q. Doctor, thank you. You were talking of your equipment and all the
8 things that were causing problems for you diagnostically. Now, sir, as a
9 practising surgeon having to undertake surgical procedures, what were the
10 immediate difficulties that you faced in carrying out operations in the
11 theatre? And indeed, were you able to use the theatre?
12 A. The theatres for surgical interventions were used as rationally as
13 possible. Now, what does that mean? It means that we would switch off
14 the generators and the whole hospital would be in darkness. And when the
15 patient arrived, or a number of patients arrived or a mass of wounded and
16 injured persons, they would be switched on again. And then we had the
17 basic electricity that we needed to perform our surgical interventions.
18 After that, once we had completed surgery, we would switch off the
19 generators so that, throughout that time, we had maximum rationalisation
20 and maximum savings of energy.
21 On the other hand, this also applied to the medicines. We had a
22 maximum reduction and maximum rationalisation. The hospital still had
23 medicines after the departure of the cadres of the Yugoslav people's army.
24 However, those medicines in the course of time became used up slowly so
25 that the hospital was forced or destined, fated to, survive only on the
1 basis of humanitarian aid. Of course, humanitarian aid was never
2 sufficient and can never be satisfactory in quality. In principle, it
3 only caters to minimum standards.
4 Q. Now, Doctor, aside from those specific difficulties, did the
5 shelling of the hospital or the damage to the hospital cause you to make
6 any arrangements for performing surgery or for the care of your patients
7 within the building?
8 A. Of course. The hospital, as I said at the beginning, has 12
9 floors, and all the floors are used for the patients, or rather the fourth
10 floor is the surgical theatre. The third floor, sterilization department,
11 and some midwives' premises, and so all the patients in the south wing had
12 to be transferred to the north wing for security reasons. And during
13 certain periods of heavy shelling, all the patients regardless would be
14 taken right down to the ground floor, the cloakrooms of the personnel
15 which we had vacated, cleaned, put hospital beds and equipment there and
16 in that way prepared, improvised hospital rooms with 10, 15, or 20
17 patients being accommodated there.
18 Q. And after the winter of 1992 throughout the year of 1993, were
19 there any changes in the working conditions in the hospital both in terms
20 of your supply and equipment and the safety issues of where you were in
21 the building and where you were able to work?
22 A. No. The end of 1992 and the whole of 1993 were hard times. The
23 situation didn't change significantly so that the regime or treatment of
24 the patients and our work remained virtually unchanged.
25 Q. Which, in this particular context we're talking about, sir, would
1 bring me to the winter of 1993 and into the spring of 1994. What were
2 your conditions for treating patients during that period?
3 A. As we moved forward, I think that the year 1994 brought some
4 light. That is my opinion. I think -- it was such a long time ago, but I
5 think that the situation improved in the logistical sense with the opening
6 of the so-called blue roads, blue routes, when via the airport was used
7 as a road, the airport runways, and when humanitarian aid, medicines,
8 equipment, and food were able to enter the city.
9 Q. But prior to that, Doctor, presumably, you had to work through the
10 winter months, from late 1993 into early 1994, and what had your
11 conditions been at that time prior to the blue routes and better supply?
12 A. Very hard. I understand the question. Very hard. Today, looking
13 back, it is hard to imagine that you would go without heating in the
14 middle of winter in hospital rooms, in the surgical theatre. So we were
15 all working in a temperature almost the same as the temperature outside.
16 Also, the situation was not improving regarding other sources of energy or
17 medicines, so that was really a very, very difficult period.
18 Q. Doctor, I would like to turn now and ask you that during these
19 very difficult times, could you tell us, please, that - again, if I can go
20 back if I may to the end of 1992 and beginning of 1993 - can you tell us
21 how much patients, if you can say so on a daily average, how many patients
22 were admitted to the hospital on a daily basis at that time?
23 A. You see, if I may make a point of clarification, to be more
24 precise with my answer, the hospital, as a public institution, worked
25 throughout the war. It had to admit all types of patients, patients who
1 were ill, patients who were injured, and patients injured as a result of
2 war. So one could divide the patients into three categories: Regular
3 patients coming in because of chronic diseases or development of those
4 diseases, injuries that had nothing to do with the war and injuries
5 inflicted by the war. It is hard to say in your medical terms today, but
6 in any event numbers were high. There is no doubt that every day through
7 the hospital clinics and departments, because the hospital consists of
8 various specialist departments, that those -- all the specialist
9 departments certainly tended to more than a hundred patients every day.
10 Q. Now, you say you took in patients of all types, and you gave us
11 some categories. Firstly, I would ask, did your patients come from both
12 the civilian and the military sector, i.e. wounded soldiers and civilians?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Can you give me the portion between let us say those civilians you
15 have referred to here as the war-injured people, and the number of
16 military who would have been treated?
17 A. To be more precise, if we are not counting patients who came to
18 the hospital to seek assistance but without suffering from any war
19 injuries, then the ratio between civilians and the military, in my
20 estimate, was about 80 to 20. Maybe -- maybe even a higher percentage in
21 favour of civilians.
22 Q. And of those civilians, what would be the type of wounds or
23 injuries that would be treated? And can you give an indication of what
24 the source of those injuries would have been or what inflicted them? I'm
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Those injuries were exclusively the consequence of wounding by
2 various kinds of projectiles. The prevalent injuries were those provoked
3 by mortar shells. But there were also injuries caused by classical
5 Q. I'm afraid that's an expression I don't understand. "Classical
6 munitions," Doctor, could you please give us a definition of what that is?
7 A. I'm not a military expert either, but what I meant -- I don't know
8 how to express myself. I meant people hit by bullets, rounds, or
9 small-arms fire, to put it that way.
10 Q. Thank you. Were there some -- I would ask you yourself, did you
11 find yourself performing surgery on wounded people on a daily basis while
12 you were working through the periods we've discussed?
13 A. I could say on a daily basis, yes.
14 Q. Can you give us any idea what you would consider or you recall as
15 your general daily workload as a surgeon performing surgical operations
16 day by day in the hospital?
17 A. Perhaps it would be better to put it this way: The shelling of
18 the city were not always of the same intensity. There were days when the
19 shelling was heavier and when it was lighter. And also during the day,
20 there were periods that -- with heavier shelling and with lighter shelling
21 so that it is very difficult to say now. There is no doubt that, at times
22 of heavier shelling, there were more injuries. And when you have a large
23 influx of the wounded, then their treatment takes 10, 12, or 15 hours.
24 After that, it is possible that there would be a lull, but not
25 necessarily. Sometimes we had to go on working until the lull came. So
1 what I'm trying to say is that the shelling was not of the same intensity,
2 and so that the number of wounded also varied accordingly.
3 Q. Can you tell me, Doctor, can you recall the longest kind of shift
4 that you worked with your fellow surgeons in the hospital? How many hours
5 at one time have you ever done treating patients?
6 A. I think time passes quickly, you see. And one tends to forget the
7 details and to suppress others. But I think that we worked hardest and
8 for longest hours during the massacres in Sarajevo, and there were several
9 of them. I think those were difficult times, not only for the injured but
10 also for us who did our very best. We worked until exhaustion, certainly
11 up to 15 hours without interruption. I have just remembered, in fact, you
12 see, that the head of the surgical department in one such massacre set a
13 record by operating continuously for 24 hours without interruption. That
14 really is quite exceptional.
15 Q. You've just used the expression "massacres." Can you recall any
16 particular times or dates that you would attribute that word to, and do
17 you know anything about how they happened or what they were? Clearly, if
18 you don't remember --
19 A. I don't remember the dates. I just know that the first massacre
20 occurred in the Vasa Miskin [phoen] Street. Vasa Miskin Street. It was
21 described as a massacre in the media. Then there were massacres at
22 marketplaces, Makali 1 and 2. And then in another part of the city near
23 Dobrinja, there were several of those massacres. I was not in a position
24 to follow all these things very closely, you see. Especially, I'm afraid
25 I can't remember the dates. But you will find the dates registered in
1 other services, of course.
2 Q. Do you recall, perhaps -- you've made reference to one specific
3 street, Vasa Miskin. Do you know what the victims of that were supposed
4 to have been doing at the time when they were wounded?
5 A. It was in the morning. They were waiting for bread to be
6 distributed out of the humanitarian aid that had arrived.
7 Q. And you've also made a reference to "Makali 1." Do you recall
8 even roughly when that was?
9 A. I wasn't there, but in subsequent analyses and stories and judging
10 by the influx of the injured, one could see that that part of the centre
11 of town had probably been shelled. And judging by the injuries, the
12 seriousness and the type of injury, one could see that they were the
13 result of the devastating effect of shells and shrapnel.
14 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, I would like to have a break. I don't
16 know whether this is a good moment.
17 MR. BLAXILL: It's a very good moment, Your Honour. I would like
18 in a moment to play an excerpt of a videotape. My learned friends have
19 the appropriate copy and so forth. It is a short clip, a minute or so,
20 maybe, but it is germane to the evidence of this witness. Perhaps it
21 could be a good time that we could see that immediately after the break.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's fine. Then we have a break for 20
23 minutes. We resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.
24 Could you please bring the witness out of the courtroom; and
25 Mr. Galic, you'll be guided out of the courtroom as well.
1 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 5.50 p.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, when we had a break, you indicated that
4 you would show a video. Do I understand, according to the rules that I
5 pronounced earlier this day, that you will tender this video in evidence
6 once all the parts have been played?
7 MR. BLAXILL: Well, essentially, that is a yes. But we are
8 proposing a technical thing which might be more to the convenience of the
9 Court at the end of the day. What we would like is if the -- at this
10 stage, the clip that we show be marked for identification purposes. The
11 idea of the Prosecution being that at the end of the day, when we have
12 shown a number of the clips from the opening video to different witnesses,
13 we would propose that they be placed on a DVD so that rather than
14 individual cassettes being stacked up and handed in as a tendered exhibit,
15 you would have one DVD OF all the sections that be marked, identified, and
17 JUDGE ORIE: As long as you state -- indicate that it would be
18 practical to do otherwise, that those documents or videos that have been
19 played already, they will be put on a list and they will be identified one
20 of the coming days. So if it's part of it, I don't think it's necessary
21 to provide us with an extra videotape. But as soon as you go out of the
22 content of the video played, we would like to have it identified or at
23 least know when with we can tender it into evidence.
24 MR. BLAXILL: It is my intention today that we stick strictly to a
25 portion of the tape that has been played already in that regard.
1 I think my learned friend Mr. Ierace would like to address you on
2 this particular issue a little further.
3 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please go ahead, Mr. Ierace.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Prosecution could appreciate some
7 guidance in this regard. I anticipate that during the course of the
8 Prosecution case, there will be a number of video clips that will be shown
9 to various witnesses. Our concern is that if we did not take this
10 compilation step, that ultimately there may be 20 or 30 videocassettes,
11 each with a clip of only one or two minutes. Therefore, the proposal
12 extends beyond the opening video. The idea we had in mind was that each
13 of those clips could be marked for identification, and then at some
14 convenient time, that could all be placed on either one video or a DVD,
15 and then before each clip, there would be a text message stating which
16 item it was by reference to the identification mark.
17 If, however, the Trial Chamber would prefer that the clips were
18 tendered separately, then of course we can do that starting with this one
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think -- first, has the Defence any opinion on
21 the technicalities, any comments to make on the suggestions of the
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.
24 You've taken me by surprise. I would have liked to have the opportunity
25 to confer because though it is a good idea, we shouldn't -- it shouldn't
1 produce results that would be not as good as we would wish. What may
2 happen is that there may be parts in the whole tapes that may need to be
3 replayed for other witnesses and not just clips, not just fragments. So I
4 would suggest that we come back to this question later when we are -- as
5 the Defence counsel -- when we have time to confer about this, please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we have to take a decision on the
7 video clip to be played now at this moment. This is part of the video
8 that has been played during the opening statement, so I would suggest --
9 I'll give you the opportunity perhaps to come back to it later. And I
10 suggest that if you want whole video scenes, since these are just clips
11 out of programmes, you perhaps communicate with the Prosecution whether
12 you will be able to see the whole of the video programme, perhaps, of
13 which it's taken out. And after you have discussed it with the
14 Prosecution, to see whether you still need this to be in open court and
15 have the video of which we only see a part to be played before the Court,
16 or that you can just see whether there are any other parts of this video
17 you would like to have played. And of course you can do that as Defence.
18 You can tender into evidence whatever other individual video clips you
19 want to. But for this moment, I would follow the suggestion of the
21 That means that we will identify, give an identification
22 number, for this clip to be played today, that it will be later part of a
23 more extensive video CD -- DVD which will be tendered into evidence. And
24 that it's not necessary at this moment, if it's given a proper name - and
25 perhaps the Prosecution can invent a name for this clip of today - that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 it's identified and later it will be tendered into evidence, and the
2 parties will see whether there's any need of looking at the context of
3 which the video is taken. If that will be acceptable to both parties, Mr.
4 Piletta-Zanin, you can come back later to your fundamental point.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
6 will indeed come back to the matter later. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Prosecution, any comment to make at this moment?
8 MR. IERACE: None, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 Then could you please give a name to the clip you're going to play
11 for us now.
12 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. It is a clip relating to state hospital, so I
13 would suggest, Your Honours, "State hospital - Mandilovic," which would
14 then identify it to the witness, if that suits you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, we can't sign the clip at this
16 moment. But it has received -- it has got this identification number.
17 You may proceed, Mr. Blaxill
18 MR. BLAXILL: The witness, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. Would you please bring in the witness,
20 Mr. Usher.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Blaxill.
22 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged, Mr. President.
23 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, at this stage I would be grateful if you would
24 just view a short video clip that we will play to you, and then I will
25 have just a few short questions to ask you about it.
1 MR. BLAXILL: I wonder if now the video clip could be played.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MR. BLAXILL: That can be stopped now, please, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, I noticed that the quality of the video
5 now, which I presume is the same video as you showed to us during the
6 opening statement, was for some technical reason of less quality. If it
7 could be easily done, I would suggest that it be played again. It is just
8 a short clip.
9 MR. BLAXILL: If that would show any improvement in the quality,
10 then certainly we would do that. Otherwise, my learned friend and I were
11 just discussing the potential of how to solve it. We could perhaps
12 arrange with Your Honours, say, later on, on Monday, if this witness were
13 still testifying, perhaps we could intervene in the course of
14 cross-examination and show, hopefully, a cleaned-up copy. But if playing
15 the clip one more time might help to resolve the issue right now, then
16 indeed, we would be happy to do so.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, do you think that...
18 I do understand that there are technical problems and it will not
19 be possible to play the video in a better condition today. So I would
20 suggest that the Prosecution be given the opportunity to play the video
21 again next Monday. Of course, I don't know whether cross-examination has
22 started already by then, but then we will slightly change the order and do
23 it as soon as possible.
24 Mr. Blaxill, then, perhaps without the video, so I assume that you
25 will leave out a few questions as well, you may proceed as you would
2 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm obliged to Your Honour,
3 thank you.
4 Q. Due to some technical problems, Dr. Mandilovic, I think we will
5 move off the issue of the video for this moment.
6 Doctor, could I ask you that during the time that we have been
7 talking about, from late 1992 through to the middle of 1994, was there any
8 military presence in the state hospital? By that, I mean the presence of
9 any armed soldiers.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was the --
12 A. In the hospital, there was never any armed soldiers present. The
13 soldiers that came to the hospital on any basis, whether they were injured
14 and wounded or needing medical aid and assistance or whether they came to
15 visit somebody who was sick in hospital, would always leave their weapons
16 outside the hospital complex in a separate room designated for that.
17 Q. Thank you. Doctor, you have made reference to some people wounded
18 by small-arms fire. Did small-arms fire ever actually hit the hospital
20 A. I think it did because all the windows on the hospital building
21 were practically shattered. I don't know whether you can see it on the
22 video clip. It is not precise enough, but on the better photographs, you
23 can see that the entire south facade of the hospital, but the east one as
24 well and partially the west, it was all bullet-riddled from small arms.
25 Q. And did this bullet-riddling damage of the hospital, did that
1 occur after September 1992 or continue after September 1992, and did it
2 continue in 1993?
3 A. Yes. Yes, it did.
4 Q. Did it continue, in fact, through 1994?
5 A. Yes, it did.
6 Q. And can you give any idea to the Chamber as to where this
7 small-arms fire came from?
8 A. Following on from logics, the small-arms fire could only have come
9 from the southeastern, southern, and southwestern side.
10 Q. And can you attribute names of areas that were in those locations
11 where you felt the fire was coming from?
12 A. I couldn't be precise. I think it came from the slopes of the
13 Trebevic mountain, the Jewish cemetery, and the Vrace part of Grbavica
14 settlement, I think. Those are the zones which would correspond to the
15 south-easterly, southern, and southwestern side, or the angles from which
16 the firing could have come.
17 Q. To the best of your recollection, Doctor, were there ever
18 occasions when shells landed or bullets struck as people were being
19 admitted to the hospital? In other words, were people hit and wounded
20 outside the hospital buildings?
21 A. In front of the hospital building itself, you couldn't hit a
22 patient. You couldn't hit a person because the buildings that rise up in
23 front of the hospital prevent a good angle of vision. You can't get a
24 good view. So the injured who came to the hospital and were injured in
25 front of the hospital, that was exclusively the result of the shelling.
1 Q. In your experience of being in Sarajevo, let alone being a surgeon
2 at the hospital, which did you consider the greater hazard to people, the
3 shelling or the sniping?
4 A. Much greater danger was from the shelling.
5 Q. Can you tell us why the one is so much more dangerous than the
7 A. Because you could know approximately where a snipe-- sniper fire
8 was coming from. And you would be able to protect yourself, to see that
9 you weren't out in an open space facing the southern side. However, the
10 projectiles of shells, you can't save yourself from projectiles of shells
11 because they come in a parabola, in an arch, and are then dispersed and
12 their destructive power is much greater than a bullet from a gunshot.
13 Q. And were any measures taken within the city, in fact, to give
14 added protection to civilians from sniping, any form of --
15 A. Yes, yes. Measures were undertaken at large crossroads open
16 towards the south. They were protected with containers and metal barriers
17 or screens. They were all improvised protection, but nonetheless quite
18 good quality and good protection against sniper fire.
19 Q. Presumably, Doctor, such barriers were of no use against
20 ammunition travelling in a parabola that you've just described, in other
21 words, a shell falling into the city. They would offer no protection from
22 that, would they?
23 A. That's right, they couldn't. You couldn't protect yourself from
24 the parabola projectile.
25 Q. Sir, in the course of this period from late September of 1992 to
1 the first half of 1994, were there any casualties amongst patients who
2 were actually wounded further whilst in the hospital?
3 A. There were several cases of wounding -- patients additionally
4 wounded actually, patients and hospital staff. And because of that, we
5 would lower the patients down as low as possible in the phases so that
6 they would not be under sniper attack. I cannot say with any certainty
7 how many. I'm sure those facts and figures existed and the hospital
8 management probably has the information. But there must have been about
9 ten all in all.
10 Q. Now, Doctor, in your experience in that hospital, I believe you
11 made some mention of the relationship between the sort of military
12 casualties you treated and the civilian. What can you say about the
13 number of civilian casualties you observed in the city and how do you
14 think so many, so many casualties could have been brought about?
15 A. What I think is the following: Sarajevo is a relatively large
16 city with quite a large population, and you couldn't keep that entire
17 population in a basement. The population had to move around. People went
18 to work. They had to go and fetch foodstuffs or humanitarian aid. So
19 the inhabitants had to move around over this long period of time. And
20 when there was this movement on the part of the population, the
21 inhabitants, any shell that fell had, following on from logics, to have
22 wrought destruction because it is a town. There is concrete all around
23 you, and wherever a shell falls leads to further dispersion and
24 reverberation. And as I said a moment ago, it is very difficult when you
25 are outside a basement or cellar to save yourself from that if there was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to be an explosion close by where you were. And it is precisely
2 because of that that there were far more injured and wounded civilians
3 coming into hospital.
4 The soldiers were at the outskirts of town, and probably in
5 trenches, too, so that they did have some protection, and there were fewer
6 of them, fewer soldiers than there were civilians. So that is what led to
7 this difference in percentages with respect to the wounded and injured.
8 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, can you please tell the Tribunal something of the
9 emotional effects that the shelling and the sniping had upon people in
10 Sarajevo, your observations perhaps of colleagues and patients and the
11 population in general you had contact with?
12 A. Of course. Over a long period of time, with the very difficult
13 conditions of a state of siege with permanent shelling that was -- caused
14 devastation, this must have had an effect on the mental makeup of man in
15 such an environment. I personally think that in that -- at that stage,
16 there was a particular fear, anxiety, all this gained particular
17 expression, neurosis, neurasthenia, phobias of different kinds, all the
18 deviant mental states and illnesses which were conditioned and the result
19 of an unnatural state of affairs over a long period of time.
20 Q. Is there perhaps -- if I could ask sort of moving away from the
21 slightly more medical approach, in just common parlance, could you sum up
22 the mood of the people, how they felt on a daily basis undergoing life
23 with the shelling and the sniping?
24 A. You know what it was like. First of all, you have the stage of
25 fear. Then there's the phase of optimism when you think it will all pass.
1 And when you see it doesn't pass, fear is multiplied and magnified with
2 all its other repercussions and this would ultimately end in a pessimistic
3 phase of indignation. So that ultimately, in the end, the population
4 becomes completely blunt, if I can use that term, to everything going on
5 around it. Numb, numb to everything going on around them.
6 Q. Do you have any view or anything to say about the attacks on the
7 hospital in relation to the mental effects upon the patients who were in
8 that hospital at the time? Was there anything you noticed in respect of
10 A. When there is fighting and when medical facilities are being
11 attacked in war, this is particularly serious and has grave effects, not
12 only on the hospital staff, and that is the essential point, but it has
13 this effect on patients who experience once again trauma. So simplify
14 matters, we have a doubling of traumatism, so you have somebody who is
15 injured with a contusion, and he is in hospital, a place where he should
16 be given peace and quiet, and he has to experience a repeated instance of
17 a dangerous situation.
18 Q. Doctor, did you have your family with you in Sarajevo during the
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Can you say where they were living?
22 A. In our apartment.
23 Q. And your family consisted of whom, your wife and/or children?
24 A. Yes, wife and child.
25 Q. And how did you feel on a daily basis with your family at the
1 apartment and yourself working in the hospital; did this arouse any
2 particular feelings in yourself, the shelling and sniping going on?
3 A. It's difficult to describe the states we were in. It was a state
4 of permanent fear, not for your own personal safety but for your nearest
5 and dearest, your family, your friends, your relatives, and the troubles
6 aggravated because you were cut off -- you had no telephone link. If
7 there was an attack, you couldn't ring up your apartment, your home, to
8 ask how they were or what was going on. So that was an added
9 aggravation. And it is very difficult to describe what one actually felt
10 and what the situation was actually like after so much time, with this
11 time distance.
12 Q. Doctor, you've used the expression "the fear felt by people." As
13 a layman, the word "fear" could mean any level of fear, from very small to
14 very great. Can you put a level or just a word that would describe the
15 degree of fear that was present in the population of Sarajevo when they
16 were going through these months of shelling and sniping?
17 A. That's a very delicate question, subtle.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
19 like to object to the question by my learned colleague in view of the
20 specialist of the doctor. He is an ear, nose, and throat doctor, whereas
21 my learned colleague has asked for the degree of fear. To assess the
22 degree of fear, an assessment of the degree of fear is not within the
23 domain of a doctor who is not a specialist in that realm, in that field.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you respond to that, Mr. Blaxill?
25 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, indeed I will, Your Honour. Your Honour, a
1 doctor is nonetheless the doctor. There is absolutely no effort by the
2 Prosecution or indeed Dr. Mandilovic to represent himself in medical terms
3 as a psychological or psychiatric expert. That is not our intent and we
4 will certainly not go down that road. I think there are two aspects here
5 that make it a relevant question. Firstly, as a doctor, he was treating
6 a lot of people during the war. Doctors are professional people who will
7 observe and have some knowledge of simple human experience. And the
8 question I asked, I thought, was really directed simply at his observation
9 of a level of fear he observed in people, or maybe even felt himself. And
10 that can be, I think, even very much a layman's realm, because it is not
11 that difficult for anyone with a degree of experience of life to see
12 whether somebody appears to be calm or happy or very happy or ecstatically
13 happy. We are asking simply for that, with the additional experience this
14 man has brought to bear by having been a doctor treating people throughout
15 that period but not beyond his general medical training, certainly not
16 into the realms of specialty.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the objection is denied.
19 Dr. Mandilovic is not called as an expert on his medical specialty, and
20 the question put to Dr. Mandilovic is such that it's asking for an
21 assessment which can be made by any human being, so Dr. Mandilovic, you
22 may answer the question.
23 A. Fear as a form of human behaviour is difficult to level, to
24 determine levels and degrees. Let me simplify matters, if I may. To all
25 intents and purposes, you are living and working under constant fear. But
1 the intensity of fear in different phases is different. That is to say,
2 it increases or decreases. It is quite certain that when close by in your
3 environment, several projectiles happen to hit, your fear multiplies and
4 you then react in different ways. You react in a normal way, you panic,
5 and so on and so forth. And in calm phases, the fear slowly subsides, is
6 reduced in tension because ultimately, there is -- we cannot be in a state
7 of permanent fear. And I said a moment ago that this is the stage where
8 indignation steps in. I think that that is a very good expression to
9 reflect the situation. One has exhausted the organism, the body. The
10 mind is exhausted from permanent fear.
11 MR. BLAXILL:
12 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, thank you for that. I have really one further
13 area to ask you briefly about, and again, I take note that I do not do so
14 as if you are a psychologist or psychiatrist. I know that you are not,
15 sir. But can you say something about any behaviour in people that has
16 been noticed or has been manifest after the war? In other words, how are
17 people today some years on? Are there any problems that still seem to
18 persist mentally?
19 A. I think that there are certain repercussions in the present-day
20 Sarajevo, especially among the people who spent the whole time in
21 Sarajevo during the war. Those are my personal impressions. They need
22 not be accurate. But I think that there is a significant percentage
23 increase in various types of neurosis and neurasthenia among people in my
24 immediate vicinity and beyond that, various illogical fears, the tendency
25 to react stormily and unexpectedly, a high degree of intolerance and the
1 like. There is no doubt that in addition to mental disorders, there are
2 certain organic disorders as well.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. BLAXILL: If I may just have a moment, Mr. President.
5 That concludes my examination-in-chief, Your Honours. I'm
6 obliged, thank you, Dr. Mandilovic. Just remain there.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill. Repeating that you'll have
8 an opportunity to play the video next Monday, I would now give the Defence
9 the opportunity to cross-examine Dr. Mandilovic.
10 Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence wishes to thank
12 you, Mr. President. But before Ms. Pilipovic starts the
13 cross-examination, I should like to raise a point which is in direct
14 connection to the cross-examination. We should like to submit to the
15 witness a document which is a document that has been disclosed by the
16 Prosecution, not as an exhibit but among other documents. But it is not
17 possible for me physically to find that exhibit among the binders that I
18 mentioned the other day. I was able to find something on my computer, but
19 the Defence does not have the ability to print this document. I can
20 provide the references, but we can't print it. And if we wish to show it,
21 we need to be able to produce it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to find a practical solution. One
23 moment, please.
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you be in a position to copy the document
25 you would like to show on a diskette, give it to the Registry, and the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 usher will have it printed somewhere?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I can do, because I'm not
3 a great expert, but I can give the references to the Prosecution, and then
4 perhaps the Prosecution can do that because it is their document. I would
5 be glad to do that. The reference, it is the following document: It is
6 in the last list that I received. It is Document numbered 121002, and the
7 number on the document itself is 00478801. Maybe I should repeat the
8 numbers: 00478801. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: One final question, did you indicate to the
10 Prosecution that you wanted this document to be used during
11 cross-examination or not? Perhaps we could have avoided all this delay.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for
13 asking me that, but the documents that we will produce will always depend
14 on what the witness says. And we never know in advance which documents we
15 will need to produce. So I didn't have time to inform the Prosecution.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes you can foresee things that develop,
18 because I would like to make quite clear that I would prefer not to lose
19 any time on these practical problems during the Court hearing. So later
20 we will be in a position to see whether this could have been prevented or
21 not. But once again, I urge the parties to solve most of the practical
22 problems out of this courtroom and not spending any time on it.
23 But can the Prosecution produce the document on short notice?
24 MR. IERACE: Indeed, Mr. President. We have some people trying to
25 obtain a copy of that document as I speak.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. So, then, Ms. Pilipovic, you
2 may proceed in cross-examination of the witness.
3 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mandilovic, good evening.
5 A. Good evening.
6 Q. Would you agree with me that on the 11th of February, 2000, as a
7 witness, you gave a statement to the investigators of the Tribunal?
8 A. I did make a statement, but I cannot confirm the date. I truly
9 don't remember.
10 Q. Can you confirm that on the 5th of February, 2001, and on the 2nd
11 of October, 2001, you had interviews with Tribunal investigators?
12 A. I did have interviews with the investigators of the Tribunal, but
13 I'm not certain about the dates.
14 Q. Thank you. You started your testimony by saying that you arrived
15 in Sarajevo when you were four years old. So you have been living in
16 Sarajevo since 1953, together with your parents?
17 A. Yes, it was '53 or '54, yes.
18 Q. So you moved to Sarajevo, and since then you have been permanently
19 residing in Sarajevo?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So you have been living and working in Sarajevo all this time?
22 A. Yes, indeed.
23 Q. Thank you. Responding to a question from my learned friend as to
24 the situation in Sarajevo, you said it was difficult from the beginning of
25 1992 and that the situation gradually worsened. Could you explain what
1 exactly you mean?
2 A. When I said that the situation was difficult at the beginning of
3 1992, I wasn't thinking of the wartime conditions. I was thinking of the
4 general living conditions, that is, heightened political tensions in the
5 town and in the state.
6 Q. To be more specific, I'm going to ask you about the city of
7 Sarajevo itself, as that is where you lived. You said that there were
8 political tensions. Among whom were those tensions and at what level?
9 A. When you have several parties, political parties, then there have
10 to be tension. That is clear.
11 Q. Do you mean that until then, relations in Sarajevo were harmonious
12 and calm and that differences in views were not noticeable, nor that there
13 were any difficulties?
14 A. Yes. Before the multiparty system was established, the situation
15 was far more stable.
16 Q. Which were the political parties that were decisive in creating
17 those difficulties?
18 A. The leading national parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and therefore
19 in Sarajevo as well.
20 Q. Would you agree with me that the formation of national parties was
21 the cause of all the subsequent conflicts in Sarajevo?
22 A. That's a political question, and now already a historical one.
23 And I'm really not an expert for those matters, I'm sorry.
24 Q. Thank you. You told us that at the beginning of 1992, there were
25 incidents and individual clashes. You said at the beginning of 1992 --
1 you didn't tell us exactly when, whether it was February, March, or April,
2 but I assume that would be the beginning of 1992, you said that there were
3 isolated clashes and incidents. Could you tell us which those incidents
4 and conflicts were?
5 A. I was referring to incidents and clashes on the political level.
6 I personally was not involved in any such conflicts or incidents.
7 Q. Do you know that there were any actual physical conflicts in the
8 course of the month of March in Sarajevo?
9 A. In my surroundings, no, I have no such knowledge.
10 Q. In what part of Sarajevo did you live as you were living in the
11 military hospital?
12 A. I was living in the municipality of Novo Sarajevo.
13 Q. Tell us, please, where the hospital is located.
14 A. In the municipality Centar.
15 Q. You told us that the conflict exploded on the 6th of April, and it
16 started growing.
17 A. Of course.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please -- Dr. Mandilovic, I'd like to ask
19 you, could you just look at your screen and wait until it stops moving
20 before you give an answer, because the interpreters might not be able to
21 follow it that quickly. But you understand each other, but it all has to
22 be translated. Thank you very much for your cooperation.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].
25 Q. I was asking you, and let me repeat, that that conflict climaxed
1 on the 6th of April, and it gradually increased, as you said?
2 A. Yes, as far as I can remember, at the beginning of April, there
3 were various peace demonstrations all over town. Everybody wanted to be
4 involved in the political game, to stand out. It is hard to say now, but
5 I think already then, at the beginning of April, the situation gradually
6 became abnormal, precisely because of those demonstrations, meetings in
7 the assembly, in the centre of town, at Marijin Dvor. There were vast
8 crowds of people waiting for something to be resolved. That's what I had
9 in mind. It was an atmosphere that was out of the normal, out of the
11 Q. In April, you went regularly to work?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you tell us whether in the hospital in which you worked,
14 were there any incidents? Were there any conflicts among certain people
15 in the hospital, or was the situation normal as that was in those days a
16 military hospital of the Yugoslav people's army?
17 A. The situation was as follows: Real conflicts of -- did not
18 exist. The only thing that was noticeable in April was that Bosniak
19 personnel were abandoning -- leaving the hospital and going home.
20 Q. Could you tell us why, if we just agreed that there were no
21 incidents in the hospital itself? Why did Bosniak members of staff go
22 home and leave the hospital?
23 A. They left the hospital probably out of fear that there would be a
24 repetition of the situation from Slavonija and Croatia, where wars had
25 broken out. And I think that was the main reason for them to leave their
1 working places.
2 Q. But in the hospital itself, could you notice any manifestations of
3 any particular feelings amongst staff with relation to people who you have
4 described as Bosniak personnel? Was anyone giving them cause to fear a
5 possible war?
6 A. I didn't notice any such thing.
7 Q. In your statement which you gave to the investigators of the
8 Tribunal on the 11th of February, 2000, on page 4 of the B/C/S version,
9 you said, "When the JNA withdrew from the state hospital, it was an
10 organised departure and equipment and drugs were left behind. The
11 hospital had been surrounded by patriotic forces and agreement had been
12 reached that equipment would be left behind."
13 Could you please tell us first when that was?
14 A. That is correct, I did say that, but I didn't quite get your
15 question. What exactly did you ask me?
16 Q. I was asking you when did this occur.
17 A. You mean when the JNA left the hospital?
18 Q. No, when the hospital was surrounded by patriotic forces and
19 agreement had been reached that equipment would be left behind.
20 A. Let me tell you. Let me see. Negotiations were conducted with
21 the hospital management by entities from the city. I think the minister
22 of the interior came and they negotiated how that should be done, in what
23 manner. I played no part in that. I just know about it from hearsay.
24 Q. Who was the director of the hospital at that time?
25 A. The director of the military hospital was Colonel Doctor Tomislav
1 Dosan [phoen].
2 Q. Who was the minister participating in the negotiations?
3 A. The minister was Jusuf Pusina [phoen].
4 Q. When was the hospital surrounded by patriotic forces, and do you
5 know who those patriotic forces were?
6 A. Well, you see, I never saw those patriotic forces on the spot
7 surrounding the hospital, but such an atmosphere was created in the
8 hospital, and you had the impression that the hospital was in an
9 encirclement. Probably that, with hindsight now, that was probably due to
10 situations in Slavonija and Croatia where military facilities, including
11 hospitals, were surrounded by certain civilian entities, and I think that
12 could be ascribed to that.
13 Q. The Bosniak personnel that left the hospital as you said, did they
14 do so before this event or after this event?
15 A. Which event?
16 Q. After the hospital was surrounded by patriotic forces and after
17 the agreement had been reached, did the Bosniaks leave before or after?
18 A. The Bosniak staff left consecutively, but I can't say that all of
19 them left. That did not happen. They left gradually, individually, in
20 the course of April. The agreement that I'm talking about, and which I
21 remember, is the agreement that was reached, I think this was in May, just
22 before the JNA staff left the hospital.
23 Q. You told us that after a certain amount of time, the Bosniak staff
24 members came back to the hospital.
25 A. Yes, after the JNA staff had left, the Bosniak staff and others
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 gradually started coming to the hospital. And they continued working as
2 they did before they had left.
3 Q. Is it true that after this agreement was reached, the entire
4 equipment and medicine -- medical supplies needed by the hospital were
5 left behind?
6 A. That is true.
7 Q. After that agreement was signed, were any changes made regarding
8 the managerial staff of the hospital? You even told us that a new body
9 was set up of which you were not a part?
10 A. That is correct. After the JNA had left the hospital, the
11 hospital continued working. For it to be able to work properly, it needed
12 to have its management. And then in the first stage, we actually had a
13 kind of triumvirate, to use that term, consisting of a Serb, a Croat, and
14 a Bosniak.
15 Q. Who was the director of the hospital at that time?
16 A. It was a joint collective managerial body, and the operation or
17 executive person was Doctor Bakanakas [phoen].
18 Q. Had he worked in the hospital before then?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know when he left the hospital and whether he left the
21 hospital at all?
22 A. He left the hospital sometime in April, but I don't know when. I
23 don't know the date.
24 Q. You told us that in April 1992, there were individual shelling
1 A. In April?
2 Q. Yes. Will you tell me, please, which locations that you know of
3 or remember were shelled?
4 A. As far as I can remember, according to the best -- my
5 recollection, that most of the shooting occurred in the southern part of
6 the city. I think this coincides -- I'm not quite certain, you see, but I
7 think this coincided with certain battles over the police school at Vrace.
8 That is the period. It is from that direction that considerable amount of
9 shooting could be heard.
10 Q. You said battles between whom?
11 A. I don't know. I was never there. I never went there.
12 Q. Do you have any knowledge that in April, there was shelling and
13 fighting in Ilidza, and that the hospital was shelled?
14 A. No, which hospital?
15 Q. It was the institute for physical therapy.
16 A. The institute for physical therapy, I don't know that. I went
17 there after the war, and I see that the institute was totally burned
18 down. But when it was burned down, I really don't know.
19 Q. Were there any incidents within the framework of the conflict in
20 the city of Sarajevo that stood out in the course of the month of May?
21 A. Already in May, there was a lot of firing around town. I remember
22 that well. And in town, itself, the situation was difficult. It was a
23 state problem. I think this was on the 2nd or the 3rd of May, 1992 when
24 the incident occurred with President Izetbegovic, and when that bad
25 situation occurred with the command of the military district and there was
1 some sort of an exchange and so on. But I know this from the media. All
2 this was beyond my immediate surroundings and knowledge.
3 Q. Were you working in the military hospital at the time as well?
4 A. I left the military hospital on the 2nd of May.
5 Q. Of that same year, 1992?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And when did you go back?
8 A. Was it the 14th, 15th, or 16th? Those were hard times. But in
9 any event, in the second half of the month of May.
10 Q. Did you have to leave the hospital on the 2nd of May?
11 A. What do you mean, did I have to?
12 Q. You said that you left the hospital.
13 A. I did. But I didn't have to. No one forced me out. No one
14 pointed a gun at me and told me to go out.
15 Q. No, no. I didn't mean that. I just wanted you to explain for me
16 the period when you were not in hospital, because you told me that you had
17 worked at the hospital throughout.
18 A. I did, with the exception of those ten days or so. With the
19 exception of those ten or so days, then I did work in the hospital all the
21 Q. Were you on annual leave?
22 A. No, you must be joking.
23 Q. No, just please tell me.
24 A. I'll tell you anything you ask.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we are close to 7.00 by now. Could
1 you please give us an estimate on how much time do you think you still
2 need for the cross-examination? That's my first question. And my second
3 question is whether you could find a proper moment within the next two or
4 three minutes to, for today, finish your cross-examination.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my cross-examination
6 will take another hour and a half, and I think that this is a good time
7 for us to interrupt the cross-examination and resume on Monday.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
9 We adjourn these proceedings until Monday. We'll start at 9.00 in
10 the morning and we'll continue until 1.45 p.m. And then I would like to
11 ask the usher to bring the witness out of the courtroom.
12 There's another question, Mr. Ierace, as far as I understand, but
13 it's not necessary for the witness to attend.
14 Yes, please.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I produced the document that
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin has identified by the numbers. That is
17 Document 00478801. I'll make available some copies to him.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. And Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you know that
19 you have to pre-number it according to your system if you tender the
20 document in evidence.
21 Then, could you please bring General Galic out of the courtroom.
22 All those who have assisted us on the technical level today and also the
23 interpretation, we wish you a nice weekend and we will see you again at
24 9.00 on Monday morning. Thank you.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
1 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on
2 Monday, the 10th day of December, 2001,
3 at 9.00 a.m.