1 Monday, 10 December 2001
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning,
6 General Galic. Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour, may I address you for one second. You
10 will recall, Your Honour, that we did have a technical problem with a
11 videoclip that was shown to this particular witness whom you'll be seeing
12 first this morning. Courtesy of the good graces of my learned friends for
13 the Defence, they would be content if we were to start today's proceedings
14 by playing that clip again to this witness. I could ask my few questions
15 in chief, and then my learned friend Ms. Pilipovic would be prepared to
16 carry on her cross-examination. If that suits your schedule for the way
17 things should proceed, Your Honour, I would suggest that's how we should
18 do so.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the order you managed to agree upon, I'm
20 only glad to do it as you wish. So that means that -- unless -- I see
21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin is asking for the floor. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] First of all, thank you to
24 give me the floor, Mr. President. We have indeed agreed 30 seconds ago
25 with Mr. Blaxill that the video could be played again before any statement
1 by the Defence. But Mr. Blaxill, I don't think you have indicated to me
2 that you would ask questions immediately. Therefore, it is not reasonable
3 I think, to interrupt a cross-examination, to insert questions of the
4 Prosecution. We agreed to play the video, Mr. Blaxill, but I don't think
5 I heard you say to the Defence that you could ask questions immediately
6 after. So our agreement doesn't stand, is broken as from now.
7 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I -- sorry.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: I was too optimistic a couple of minutes ago that you
10 had agreed upon something. The video will be played, that's the decision
11 of the Court, after the cross-examination has been completed. So
12 Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed, once the witness has been brought in, with
13 the cross-examination.
14 Could you please bring in the witness, Mr. Usher.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Mandilovic -- Dr. Mandilovic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I understand that you can hear me in a language you
19 understand. May I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn
20 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony, and the Defence
21 may now proceed the cross-examination.
22 WITNESS: MILAN MANDILOVIC [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Resumed]
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mandilovic.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. On Friday, at the end of our working day, we were discussing the
4 question of whether on the 2nd of May you were at your workplace.
5 A. Yes, on 2nd of May, I had left the hospital. Actually, I had left
6 my workplace.
7 Q. When was that? What time?
8 A. It was in the morning hours, before noon. I think it was a
9 Saturday, actually, but I'm not quite sure.
10 Q. Thank you. You live in the Novi Grad municipality?
11 A. No, in the Novo Sarajevo municipality
12 Q. Oh, I see. I apologise. How did you go to work from your home to
13 your workplace, and how long did it take to you get to work?
14 A. Usually, I would walk, which meant that it took me 25 minutes to
15 half an hour, or I took the tram, or I went in my own car.
16 Q. On that particular day, how did you go?
17 A. That day, I went by tram.
18 Q. Do you happen to know that on that particular day, there was
19 something going on in town, something special? Were there any incidents
20 or anything out of the ordinary?
21 A. I personally did not see any incidents taking place, but later on,
22 during the afternoon and evening, from the media, because it was the time
23 when the media was active, there was electricity, and you could follow
24 programmes, there were -- I learned that there had indeed been incidents
25 in town. And I think that the tram transport was stopped later on. I had
1 already reached my home by that time.
2 Q. Who were the parties to the incident? Do you happen to know?
3 A. The incident was between some structures of the Yugoslav
4 people's army and the members of the Territorial Defence.
5 Q. Do you happen to know that on that particular day, there were
6 casualties, that persons taking part in the incident were wounded and
8 A. Yes, there was something like that. But I couldn't tell you
9 exactly the number of the casualties or what actually happened. I really
10 can't say.
11 Q. You are a major by rank?
12 A. Yes, I was a major.
13 Q. That means you were a higher officer. Is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you learn that your fellow officers and noncommissioned
16 officers were injured and wounded on that day as well?
17 A. I think that there was an incident that took place that day when a
18 group of soldiers, a small group of soldiers, started out from the
19 military hospital, which is where they were stationed, and that they moved
20 in a direction of the headquarters of the 2nd military district to help
21 out a situation with a truck. And there was an incident that took place
22 in the Vojvode Stepe Street, which is the right bank of the Mijecka River,
23 and some people were injured and I think some were killed as well, but I
24 can't tell you any figures today with any certainty.
25 Q. You said that a couple of soldiers from the military hospital were
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. What day was that?
4 A. What do you mean?
5 Q. I'm asking you about when they left the military hospital.
6 A. I think that was the 2nd of May. I didn't see it actually happen,
7 but from the media as it was reconstructed, I think that it was the 2nd of
8 May. And that small contingent of soldiers, I think there were 10 to 15
9 of them, they were led by an officer, I think he was captain first class
10 by rank or a younger officer was stationed -- a noncommissioned officer
11 was stationed in the building of the military hospital from approximately
13 Q. What floor were they on?
14 A. They were on the 12th floor, and later on, after my departure,
15 they cleared out the 12th floor, and the 11th floor as well, and that's
16 where they were put up.
17 Q. Let me remind you that yesterday, or rather on Friday, in response
18 to a question by my learned friend, Mr. Blaxill, when asked whether in the
19 military hospital there was any -- there were any soldiers, you said there
20 were not, and that you had never seen them in hospital. You had never
21 seen any military presence in the hospital.
22 A. I apologise. I thought the question related to the period after
23 the Yugoslav people's army units had left the military hospital, and I
24 apologise if you misunderstood me or if I misunderstood. May I just
25 complete my answer, please. After the 10th of May, actually, in the
1 military or the newly named state hospital, there were no -- there was no
2 more military presence.
3 Q. When I started my cross-examination, my question for you was the
4 following: Whether, in the hospital --
5 MR. BLAXILL: I just wonder if my learned friend could give us a
6 page reference in the transcript she is referring to.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether they have available already, Ms.
8 Pilipovic, the transcript. I did not receive yet a transcript this
9 morning, so I don't know whether it will be possible to have the
10 transcript on the screen. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that we can't do it
11 at this moment. Usually, we have it available the next morning, but since
12 we switched from afternoon session to morning sessions, we haven't.
13 MR. BLAXILL: I believe we have Livenote on the computer, on the
15 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know if you can scroll back to an earlier
16 day. You can?
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can give you the
18 time. It was 18.09 hours, to be exact, 35. 18.09, I made a note of it.
19 I haven't got the official version of the transcript, but the time was
20 18.09, 35.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that the Registry will try to look
22 into the transcript of last Friday at the time mentioned by the Defence,
23 or if you have got it available...
24 I think we need some patience, but the Registrar is really trying
25 hard. May I ask the Defence, the time you indicated, was this the time
1 from the big screen or on the laptop computer? Because there's a time
2 difference of approximately 11 minutes.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Laptop, 18.09.35.
4 JUDGE ORIE: What's the best way to proceed, Madam Registrar? Can
5 we either have a printout of a few lines, then I can read them, or we
6 could invite the Defence could read the specific part?
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am trying to find on the
8 diskette of Friday those elements. If I find them immediately, I'll let
9 you know, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think Madam Registrar is already printing the...
11 It's Monday morning, not only the parties but also the printer
12 needs warming up. Perhaps would it be possible for you to proceed and
13 come back to this question later, once we have the printout of that part
14 of the transcript. Thank you.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
16 Q. On that 2nd of May, you say that over the media, you learned of an
17 incident that took place between the army and, as you said, the
18 Territorial Defence?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. According to your knowledge, how many officers were wounded on
21 that occasion, how many noncommissioned officers and how many soldiers?
22 A. I said a moment ago that I know for certain that some were killed,
23 but one officer was killed and I think one soldier as well and that
24 several others were wounded, but I really don't know the exact number. I
25 apologise. I can't tell you any figures.
1 Q. You are a member of the medical corps of the JNA. Is that right?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. And your number was 32509. Was that right? What were you, as a
4 member of the medical corps and as a doctor yourself; what did you do?
5 What measures did you take to help in -- to help your colleagues out and
6 also the citizens who were casualties? Which military post did you report
8 A. After I left the military hospital, I did not report to any
9 military post. I reported to the local community.
10 Q. When did you leave the military post?
11 A. On the 2nd of May, 1992.
12 Q. Who did you report your departure to?
13 A. The head of the military hospital.
14 Q. Who was the head of the military hospital at the time?
15 A. Colonel Doctor Tomislav Tausan.
16 Q. Did you report to him in writing or orally?
17 A. Orally.
18 Q. Did you tell him why you were leaving?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. And what was the reason for your departure? What reason did you
21 give him?
22 A. I said that it was because at that particular time, the units of
23 the Yugoslav people's army were no longer a regular military force. In
24 view of the fact that the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina had been recognised
25 on the east river, then the Territorial Defence became the regular
1 military force of that particular state. And the police or the reserve
2 police becomes its security force by the same token.
3 Q. You said that the JNA was a professional army?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. By rank, you are a high-ranking officer, a higher ranking
6 officer. May I correct... Your father was a military man as well. Is
7 that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How do you explain the way in which you departed from the army or
10 how you left your military post at a point in time when incidents were
11 taking place and when the Yugoslav army, the Yugoslav people's army, was
12 being attacked as you, yourself, said both in Slovenia and in Croatia, and
13 according to you, this was happening in Sarajevo, too, because you said
14 yesterday when I was questioning you that the patriotic league had, in
15 fact, surrounded the hospital? You never made mention at all that there
16 was any army in the hospital.
17 A. You didn't ask me. You didn't ask me about the army. I
18 apologise. You didn't ask me, and that was the way in which your
19 examination ran, that you never reached that question, and I didn't want
20 to jump the gun, so to speak.
21 Q. But I asked you whether it was -- whether the statement you gave
22 to the investigators of the Tribunal was true where you said that the
23 patriotic league had surrounded the hospital.
24 A. It's like this: Just a minute.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down. Make pauses
1 between question and answer, please.
2 A. May I answer? It was like this.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, there was a question - I don't know
4 whether it has been translated for you - to make a pause between
5 the answer given and the new question to be put to the witness because it
6 goes too quick, as we experienced before. Thank you.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.
8 Q. Could you answer my question, please?
9 A. Would you repeat your question?
10 Q. Did the patriotic league surround the hospital and which were the
11 forces of the patriotic league?
12 A. When I say "patriotic league," I mean the patriotic forces or the
13 patriotic front. And with that term, I also mean the regular forces of
14 the newly established state of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This implies the
15 Territorial Defence, the police, and the reserve police force, too.
16 Q. So the patriotic league was not the Territorial Defence; is that
17 what you're saying?
18 A. The patriotic league, in a word, is patriotic. They are patriotic
19 forces, the patriotic front. All that makes up the patriotic league.
20 Q. Which forces made up that patriotic league?
21 A. I just said the Territorial Defence and the police force.
22 Q. When the patriotic forces surrounded the military hospital, where
23 were you?
24 A. I should like to mention one point.
25 Q. I'm asking you where were you. It's a short question. Where were
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. May I just take a little time to expand upon that? I don't think
3 it was a classical form of encirclement.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was
5 merely where the witness was at that particular time when the patriotic
6 league had formed a circle around the hospital. I don't think we
7 should waste time.
8 Q. My question is very short, a short one: Where were you?
9 A. I cannot answer your question because the question is a very sharp
10 one. You're talking about an encirclement. I don't think it was a
11 classical encirclement or siege. It was more a matter of control.
12 Q. I asked you where you were when the patriotic forces surrounded
13 the hospital.
14 A. I was in the hospital, and later on I was outside the hospital
15 because it's an hour, this whole process went on for an hour.
16 Q. How long did the process go on for?
17 A. Well, it lasted until the Yugoslav people's army left the premises
18 of the military hospital.
19 Q. How long did that last, how many days?
20 A. The military hospital, or rather the forces of the Yugoslav
21 people's army left the military hospital, I think, on the 10th of May. I
22 think a month, and then the patriotic forces controlled the hospital and
23 the area around it.
24 Q. So you'll agree with me that the members of the patriotic forces
25 for one month controlled the surroundings of the hospital and provided
1 security for the hospital. Is that right?
2 A. I would say that was the time it was, but other people might be
3 able to give you more exact information.
4 Q. Were they armed? I mean the members of the patriotic forces.
5 A. I only saw the police section of the patriotic forces, and they
6 had light weapons.
7 Q. Were they present inside the hospital as well?
8 A. No.
9 Q. After, as you yourself said, the agreement, and that, according to
10 you, was on the 10th of May?
11 A. I'm not sure it was the 10th of May because the 10th of May was
12 the time of departure from the hospital. I think it was one or two days
13 prior to that.
14 Q. Could you tell me exactly when?
15 A. I really don't know. I wasn't in the hospital at that time. I
16 only learned this from the media so I wasn't in the hospital actually, but
17 I think that that was on the 7th or 8th.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill.
19 MR. BLAXILL: If I could just interpose and ask if my learned
20 friend could explain the relevancy of all this detail of a period that
21 well pre-dates the indictment period. I know we've had to deal with some
22 elements of background to the conflict, I think that's appropriate, but at
23 this point my learned friend does seem to be dwelling in enormous detail
24 on something which I am now questioning the relevance of this direction in
25 such detail.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could you please explain the relevance
2 of this questioning in detail on this subject.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before the witness
4 started answering questions in the cross-examination by the Defence, I
5 asked the witness whether he had made a statement to the investigators of
6 the Tribunal on the 11th of February, 2000. The witness asserted that he
7 did, in fact, make a statement. The witness statement is six pages long.
8 After that, I asked him whether he had a talk with the Tribunal's
9 investigators, and that was in September and on the 2nd of October. And
10 the witness said "yes" to that. My cross-examination and my testing of
11 the credibility of the witness moves within this framework, that is to
12 say, the examination-in-chief by my learned colleague and within the
13 frameworks of the statements given to the investigators of the Tribunal.
14 And the Defence has these statements, having been given them by my learned
16 My second point is the following: I'm going to tell you that the
17 witness yesterday spoke about, in answer to my colleague's friends, that
18 at the beginning of the conflict, which broke out in 1992, and the
19 incidents that took place, and particularly the incident when the barracks
20 was surrounded, he answered those questions. Now, my question refers to
21 May because the witness talked about that. I just want to test whether
22 he's telling the truth. Had my learned colleagues limited their
23 examination-in-chief to the relevant period in the indictment, then my
24 cross-examination would be within that relevant period of the indictment
25 as well. But in view of the fact that the witness was questioned from the
1 beginning of 1992, about events from the beginning of 1992, and then it
2 went on through 1993 and 1994, it is precisely for these reasons that the
3 Defence in its cross-examination wishes to test the credibility of this
4 witness and to ascertain in simple terms whether the witness is telling
5 the truth, both in his statements and in response to the questions he is
6 being asked.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think you're right to the extent that the
8 examination-in-chief also covered this period of time. On the other hand,
9 I can imagine that some details are, even for the credibility of the
10 witness, are not of that major importance, so perhaps if you could
11 concentrate on those issues that really matter in the -- in the
12 questioning, then perhaps we could proceed a bit more quickly. I remind
13 that you, for example, on some issues in earlier cross-examination you
14 asked on every single place whether the witness was aware of the exact
15 lines, the exact positions of the armies. And the answer was again, no,
16 no, no. Perhaps if you could try to first find out whether the witness
17 has some relevant knowledge in general on certain issues, and then perhaps
18 go in more detail if it turns out he has.
19 The only reason I'm telling you this, I see the relevance of your
20 questioning. On the other hand, I think if you could do it just as
21 efficient as possible so that we don't lose too much time. Thank
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to state the
24 position that was agreed between the Prosecution and the Defence, and that
25 is that the cross-examination may last as long as the
1 examination-in-chief. I will try to keep my cross-examination within this
2 duration, and not cross the limit.
3 My question, to what extent the patriotic league was present, for
4 how long, the witness answered, for a month. And I asked him where he got
5 this information. That was his own answer. If he had said I don't know.
6 I wouldn't have had any more questions.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill.
8 MR. BLAXILL: Just a point on which I would correct my learned
9 friend. It wasn't an issue of agreement between the parties that any
10 cross-examination be limited in time to the examination-in-chief time.
11 That was contents of the order of 16th November from the learned Pre-Trial
12 Judge, and it is a matter which is currently under appeal. So it wasn't a
13 matter of agreement.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with you it was not part of the order, as
15 far as I remember, but it was part of the suggestion made by the Pre-Trial
16 Chamber. There's still an appeal pending. Let me just say this: Even if
17 you would agree that cross-examination should take perhaps not more time
18 than the examination-in-chief, this doesn't say that it must take the same
19 time. So the only question at this moment is do it as efficient as
20 possible. Thank you.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I thank
22 my learned friend. It is indeed the decision on the 16th November by the
23 Pre-Trial Judge, Judge Rodriguez.
24 Q. From the 2nd of May, 1992 until when didn't you come to your
1 A. I think until the 12th of May, I think.
2 Q. When was your employment with the JNA terminated?
3 A. On the 2nd of May.
4 Q. You stated that the army of Republika Srpska grew out of the JNA?
5 A. That's my opinion.
6 Q. Will you agree with me that the Yugoslav people's army divided
7 along ethnic lines?
8 A. That it divided along ethnic lines? That it split along ethnic
9 lines? Was that your question?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yes, in principle, yes, with the departure of Slovenia, of
12 Croatia, of Macedonia, there occurred a rift in the Yugoslav People's army
13 which could no longer have this attribute, peoples.
14 Q. You said that the command corps of the Republika Srpska was made
15 of the command corps of the former JNA?
16 A. That's my opinion, yes. Basically, I don't claim that all the
17 officers transferred, nor do I know the majority of them. But it is
18 certain that there was a cadre of the former JNA. They were present in
19 all armies.
20 Q. You say in all armies. Which armies do you mean?
21 A. I mean the army of Republic of Slovenia, the army of the Republic
22 of Croatia, certainly in the army of Republika Srpska, and in the
23 newly-established army, that is, the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and
25 Q. When did you start working in the hospital?
1 A. I have said this already. On the 12th or the 13th of May.
2 Q. When were the first patients brought in with injuries inflicted by
3 firearms from the time when you began working? Do you remember?
4 A. I'm trying to remember. I'm trying to be as precise as I can
5 because it has been a long time, really. It was a continuous process, and
6 it's only a question of number, just a few days after my -- after I
7 started working at the hospital, patients started coming in in large
8 numbers. I remember that there was constant -- there was a constant
9 inflow of regular patients with chronic conditions, more or less usual
10 conditions. The hospital never stopped working.
11 Q. Were there more civilians or soldiers at the hospital then?
12 A. Civilians.
13 Q. Were there any soldiers of the JNA at your hospital?
14 A. Yes, there were soldiers of the JNA who had been left behind, who
15 had been in treatment before, and their treatment had not been completed
16 so they had to remain in the hospital.
17 Q. Did you treat them?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Do you have any knowledge that there were colleagues of yours who
20 refused to treat members of the JNA?
21 A. I think that there were no such doctors at the state hospital.
22 Q. You said that there were more civilians than soldiers in that
23 initial period. Will you please specify what period that was when you had
24 -- when you got your first soldiers along with civilians at the hospital?
25 A. Let me get one thing straight: Whose soldiers do you mean?
1 Q. You said there were soldiers and civilians among the
3 A. Yes, but whose soldiers, soldiers of the JNA or soldiers of the
4 Territorial Defence?
5 Q. I asked you first were there civilians and soldiers, and then I
6 asked you whether there were soldiers of the JNA.
7 A. I think I was precise enough. There were soldiers whose treatment
8 required a longer time, and regardless of the fact that the JNA had left
9 the hospital, they remained at the hospital continuing their treatment.
10 And they were treated in a completely normal way, regardless of the
11 political environment.
12 Q. Were there any soldiers of the Territorial Defence?
13 A. Yes, yes. That was probably already towards the end of May and
14 the beginning of June.
15 Q. During admission of patients to the hospital, in what way did you
16 make records of their admission, and did you record the fact they were
17 soldiers or civilians?
18 A. There is an admissions record, a protocol, where you record the
19 name, surname, name of father, the year of birth, and status.
20 Q. Do you want to explain what "status" means?
21 A. Whether it's a soldier or a civilian.
22 Q. So you wrote in your protocol "civilian" or "soldier"; is that
24 A. If the person is civilian, you would write that he is a civilian.
25 If he is a soldier, you would write that he is a soldier.
1 A. Of course, you have to do that. How would we know the next day or
2 after so many years, how would we be able to preserve the records of our
3 former patients?
4 Q. All those soldiers who were admitted by you, were they dressed in
5 uniform, and what did those uniforms look like?
6 A. No, members of the Territorial Defence did not have any uniforms
7 in the initial stage. They wore mostly their own clothes, civilian
8 clothes, or alternatively, they wore parts of uniforms. Members of the
9 police did have their own uniforms.
10 Q. What does it mean if the protocol explicitly states "civilian" or
11 "soldier," how is such a patient treated, or how do you think --
12 A. You are asking if there is no such specification, if it is not
13 explicitly stated.
14 Q. If somebody simply fails to write in "civilian" or "soldier"?
15 A. There can be no such failure. You have to write something.
16 Alongside the year of birth, you have to write "civilian" or "soldier."
17 Q. That's what I wanted you to confirm. So it was not possible to
18 leave this column blank?
19 A. No, no, no.
20 Q. You said yesterday -- I mean the last time when you were
21 questioned by my learned friend, that the hospital was on the separation
22 line, on the demarcation line, just a hundred metres away from the
23 confrontation line, or 300 to 400 metres as the crow flies?
24 A. Yes, but I think I put it this way: The position of the hospital
25 on Marijin Dvor was about 300 to 400 metres away from the right bank of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the Mijecka River, and the Mijecka River was practically the separation
3 Q. The separation line between whom and whom?
4 A. The forces of the Territorial Defence and the forces of Republika
6 Q. Can you tell me, between those parties to the confrontation, was
7 there any fighting?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How frequent was the fighting?
10 A. It was very frequent. That is to say, the shelling was very
11 frequent. As for direct combat, I can't say because I was not on the
12 front line. But the shelling was constant.
13 Q. In relation to the separation line which was the Mijecka River,
14 where were the positions of the BH army?
15 A. According to the logic of things, they were along the Mijecka
17 Q. What facilities are located there? You said on the right bank,
18 along the right bank, so which side was it, north, east?
19 A. We are talking about the south side relative to the hospital,
20 because both the Mijecka River and the Grbavica mountain was on the south
21 side. And you see the right bank when you look from the source to the
22 confluence, which means that it was the bank closer to the hospital. That
23 was the right bank.
24 Q. Where were the positions of the BH army if you look at this right
25 bank of the Mijecka River in juxtaposition to the hospital? Could you
1 specify their positions?
2 A. I think one of their positions was -- at least what we could see
3 from the hospital, I think the most prominent position of their defences
4 was the building of the BH parliament.
5 Q. That building of the parliament, does it shield the building of
6 the hospital?
7 A. No, it is far from the hospital.
8 Q. Looking towards the Mijecka River, towards the right bank?
9 A. It is right next to the right bank of the Mijecka River.
10 Q. What other buildings are there?
11 A. The building of the philosophical faculty, the building of the
12 geographical museum, the building of the mechanical engineering faculty.
13 There are also residential buildings, empty lots, the building of the
14 electrical company and so on.
15 Q. Where were the soldiers and the troops located, those who were on
16 the right side of the separation line, in juxtaposition to the Mijecka
18 A. I don't know. I never inspected those lines or positions, never
19 during the war.
20 Q. Relative to the east, as viewed from the hospital. We now talked
21 about the south side and the existence of the separation line along the
22 Mijecka River. You told us about the buildings, the high-rise buildings
23 alongside the Mijecka River.
24 A. Excuse me, there is no high-rise building which would shield the
25 hospital or block the view of the hospital.
1 Q. How tall were the buildings?
2 A. The building of the parliament is rather low in height, and then
3 there is another building which is high-rise, but it is -- its position
4 is such that it's not directly opposite, so it cannot block the hospital.
5 Q. Viewed from this south side, looking at the right bank of the
6 Mijecka where the separation line was, from those positions where the line
7 was, was there any fighting relative to the other bank of the River?
8 A. I didn't see any fighting, no traditional infantry fighting.
9 There was only shelling that I can note.
10 Q. But in answer to my question, you said there was fighting between
11 the two warring parties, and those were the Territorial Defence and the
12 army of the Republika Srpska?
13 A. They were confronted, but as for traditional infantry fighting, I
14 heard the sound of infantry weapons. I heard a wide range of noise from
15 artillery weapons, but I never saw any traditional infantry fighting or
16 battle because that was too far away.
17 Q. You said you saw the shelling or you heard it?
18 A. I heard the shelling. And then, you see, shelling has one
19 feature, if the piece firing the shell is above you, you see a glow at a
20 certain point, and a couple of moments later, you hear the detonation,
21 whereas with infantry weapons, you cannot see it because you don't know
22 where it is unless it's very close by.
23 Q. Did you see the shell or did you just hear the explosion?
24 A. You see, the war was a very protracted one and the shelling lasted
25 for a long time. And there were certainly occasions when we could see,
1 when we could observe the shelling that -- we could directly see the glow,
2 the blasts from the pieces and then hear the sounds.
3 Q. How did you watch that?
4 A. We observed it for the entire duration of the war.
5 Q. Specifically, would you please describe one or two incidents that
6 you observed where the shells fell and what they damaged?
7 A. I don't know. You see, as far as the town is concerned, I have no
8 direct knowledge. I have only indirect knowledge from the patients who
9 came in, and from the media. As for direct observations, I can tell you
10 about the hits that the hospital took on the south side.
11 Q. When was that?
12 A. The hospital was hit many times on the south side from the
13 beginning of the war until 1995, until the Dayton Accord. It's very
14 difficult to name the figure now, but there were many hits.
15 Q. Did you see any instances of those -- this shelling of the
17 A. Of course. At one point, I was on the same floor that was hit by
18 a shell.
19 Q. When was that and what was damaged on that occasion?
20 A. I was on the 11th floor, in the corridor, and suddenly I hear a
21 huge impact. The whole framework of the building began to tremble. Then
22 I heard a huge acoustic impact, then a blast, then a lot of dust, laboured
23 restoration and so on.
24 Q. Did you see that shell coming and falling on the 11th floor or did
25 you just hear it?
1 A. No, I didn't see it. I don't think you can see it at all. I was
2 just present on that location when this mortar or artillery shell -- you
3 cannot really distinguish in that tumult of noises what it was. I was
4 present there about 10 metres away from the room which was hit and
5 completely destroyed by the shell. And not only that room, but also two
6 neighbouring rooms and a part of the corridor.
7 Q. How far is the Marsal Tito barracks from the hospital?
8 A. I think it's about 400, 500 metres away.
9 Q. Do you know who was inside the Marsal Tito barracks?
10 A. There were members of the Yugoslav people's army housed in the
11 Marsal Tito barracks, and students of the military school until a certain
12 point when they left, and I can't tell you the date. They were
14 Q. After the relocation, who was inside the barracks?
15 A. I think it was the forces of the UNPROFOR.
16 Q. How far is the railway station from the hospital?
17 A. About the same distance, 500, 600 metres.
18 Q. You have already explained to us if we can call it the south line
19 of separation to the south relative to the Mijecka River. Where is the
20 separation line on the east?
21 A. On the east, it is along the suburbs of the Stari Grad
23 Q. How far is that from the hospital?
24 A. You mean as the crow flies or by road?
25 Q. You can tell me both if you know.
1 A. I don't know by road, but it's certainly several kilometres.
2 Q. Relative to the east, where were the positions of the BH army and
3 where were the positions of the Republika Srpska army?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. In that section, was there any fighting between the warring
7 A. There probably was because there was shelling and certainly if
8 there is shelling, then there is probably a certain amount of fighting.
9 I, however, haven't seen infantry fighting. It's too far away, for one,
10 and secondly, I was never in that area.
11 Q. Will you explain to us the positions relative to the north side
12 and the northeast of the hospital?
13 A. I think that the positions of the VRS was somewhere on Polina
14 [phoen]. You can see it from the upper floors of the hospital if you look
15 to the north. But where exactly the line was, I don't know. But that is,
16 if I may call it, the northern destination.
17 Q. Where were the positions of the BH army?
18 A. I don't know. In front of them, probably.
19 Q. Was there any damage to the north side of the hospital?
20 A. Yes, yes. But to a smaller extent than on the south side, far
22 Q. Could you explain to us the western side of the hospital.
23 A. The west is the narrow portion of the hospital, and the western
24 side, or rather when you get to the western balcony and western side of
25 the hospital, your view is towards parts of Grbavica and Vrace, and you
1 can also see Ilidza and Rajlovac, so that's that western side moving from
2 the southwest to the west.
3 Q. Now, on this western side, westerly reaches of the hospital, the
4 hospital looks towards the Grbavica settlement. Is that right?
5 A. Well, the hospital and Grbavica settlement are placed parallel,
6 but this western side, when you get to the western side actually, you can
7 see the Grbavica area but you can also see Ilidza, Rajlovac, and a whole
8 spectrum. You have a whole broad angle of vision from that western side,
9 from the southwest to the northwest, so it's not just one side and one
10 area. It's a broad angle of vision.
11 Q. Is the Grbavica settlement -- does it border on to the Hrasno
12 settlement? Is there a square in between?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. And from the southern side, can you see the Hrasno settlement?
15 A. Which southern side?
16 Q. The hospital side. I mean, can you see Hrasno?
17 A. I think you can partially, in part, not very well. You can say
18 Hrasno is over there, but you can't see it clearly because it's at a great
20 Q. Do you happen to know which inhabitants lived in the Grbavica
21 municipality -- rather, the Grbavica settlement or the Hrasno? Were there
22 any positions there, if you happen to know or not?
23 A. You're asking me about the composition of the population, you mean
25 Q. Yes, ethnically speaking.
1 A. What I know is the following: I wasn't there at the time during
2 the war, but I do know that the inhabitants of Grbavica was predominantly
3 Serbs. Predominantly, not exclusively, though.
4 Q. What about the Hrasno settlement?
5 A. The Hrasno settlement was predominantly inhabited by the
6 Bosniaks, predominantly, but let me say that the entire area, the part of
7 Sarajevo which was under the control, for all practical purposes, of the
8 Territorial Defence was a multi-ethnic population.
9 Q. You said that the shelling of the hospital, that you saw the
10 shelling of the 11th floor of the hospital, in fact, that you were on the
11 11th floor?
12 A. Yes, I was there in person. On that occasion, when the shelling
13 took place, rather, I was in the vicinity. But that kind of shelling was
14 very frequent during the war. I was lucky just to be near the shelling on
15 that one occasion. Or the other occasions when the projectiles hit the
16 hospital, I was on the lower floors or in the theatre, operations theatre,
17 so that the -- apart from the trembling that I felt caused by the
18 detonations, by the explosions, there were no other consequences for me.
19 Q. So don't know what that month was?
20 A. What are you talking about?
21 Q. I'm talking about the shelling of the 11th floor.
22 A. It was sometime in 1993, but exactly when, I really can't say -- I
23 really don't know.
24 Q. Where is the Kosovo tunnel in relation to the hospital and how far
25 away is it?
1 A. Which Kosovo tunnel do you mean?
2 Q. I mean the Ciglane settlement.
3 A. In relation to the hospital, I would say the Ciglane settlement
4 was behind the hospital to the northern side, and I'm sure it must be, as
5 the crow flies, a kilometre or one and a half kilometres in a straight
6 line. But from the hospital, you can't see the Ciglane settlement or the
7 tunnel because there's a hill that rises up behind the hospital which
8 blocks your view towards that settlement.
9 Q. What hill is that?
10 A. I don't know. I don't know what the name is. A nameless hill.
11 It's an elevation, actually.
12 Q. Were there any military objects on that hill?
13 A. I did not see any.
14 Q. In relation to the hospital, where was the UNIS building located?
15 A. The UNIS building is -- there were two buildings in fact.
16 Q. Yes, that's right. There were two high-rise buildings.
17 A. In relation to the hospital, they are precisely to the southwest.
18 Q. How far away as the crow flies would you say?
19 A. Several hundred metres.
20 Q. Do you happen to know that there were sniper nests on those two
21 buildings throughout the duration of the conflict?
22 A. I don't know. I didn't see them. I didn't see anybody or
23 anything. I don't know.
24 Q. What about over the media? Did you hear that somebody had been
25 hit from those spots?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I really don't know.
2 Q. What about the Electroprijedor building?
3 A. On the Electroprijedor building, I know from the media that, just
4 like on the parliamentary building, there were the Territorial Defence
5 members because there is a bridge next to that building, then to the left
6 of the parliament is a bridge and to the left of the Electroprijedor
7 buildings there was the bridge, and these were bridges that were -- for
8 which security was provided. You have the Mijecka River flowing
9 underneath them so that quite naturally, that was there.
10 Q. You said that the shelling of Sarajevo took place during the night
11 as well?
12 A. Yes, it did take place during the night as well, although
13 percentage-wise I think that the daily shellings were more intensive than
14 the ones that took place during the night.
15 Q. Was the hospital shelled at night?
16 A. I can't remember any night-time hits. I really can't remember.
17 Q. Were there cases when civilians were wounded in front of the
19 A. Yes, there were. There were.
20 Q. During the conflict, was security provided for the hospital?
21 A. Yes, it was.
22 Q. Who provided the hospital security?
23 A. The forces of the reserve police force, and that was only at the
24 gate, at the entrance gate.
25 Q. You have told us that the hospital was damaged mostly by artillery
2 A. I can't make an assessment of that, really. The hospital --
3 perhaps I could put it this way and explain it in this way. Along the
4 facades, particularly the western, southerly, and eastern facades, the
5 facades were damaged by artillery fire, but some hits created much
6 greater damage. Infantry fire created much greater damage.
7 Q. The shells, the results of the shells hitting the building, is
8 that visible? Can they be seen?
9 A. Yes, they can.
10 Q. Were parts of the walls so damaged that the floors were not able
11 to function, that nothing on that particular floor was able to function?
12 A. The entire southern side was not operational. The whole southern
13 side of the hospital, wing of the hospital, was not operational throughout
14 the war. And all the activities had to be transferred to the northern
15 side, and during the intensive shelling phases, everything was
16 transferred to the lower floors.
17 Q. During the conflict, were some floors completely out of order, if
18 I can put it that way, not working?
19 A. Yes, that's right. The upper stories were not operational at
21 Q. Which upper floors?
22 A. From the 12th floor to the 5th floor.
23 Q. They weren't working at all, you couldn't use them at all. Is
24 that right?
25 A. It's like this: The northern wing was used, but because of the
1 intensive shelling, you couldn't use it properly. When the intensity of
2 the shelling subsided, then the activities of the hospital would move
3 upwards, the floors above. When the shelling was intensive, all the
4 hospital's activities would go down to the lower floors. So you can't say
5 that throughout the whole floor, all the floors were not operational. The
6 northern wing did work, was open. It just depended on the stage and
7 intensity of the shelling as to how much those floors and that wing was
9 Q. Did journalists visit the hospital?
10 A. Yes, they did.
11 Q. When did these visits take place?
12 A. Throughout the conflict.
13 Q. Were the journalists put up, accommodated in the hospital
14 somewhere, or did they just come and go, come for short visits? Or did
15 they stay in the hospital for a day or two? How long did they stay?
16 A. As far as I remember, in the first stage, that is to say, the end
17 of May, the journalists who visited the hospital would tour the hospital,
18 and then they would actually stay in the hospital for a day or two. But
19 later on, after June, they found some other places to stay in town so that
20 they would just make their visits that lasted several hours, and then
22 Q. You said that the shelling came from the direction of Vrace,
23 Trebevic, and the Jewish cemetery?
24 A. Yes, that's right. That's what I said.
25 Q. You also said that the Jewish cemetery itself was located on the
1 southern side, south of the hospital, under Mount Trebevic, if I recall?
2 A. Yes, that's right. The Jewish cemetery is at a small elevation,
3 and they are the slopes -- it's the beginning of the slopes of Mount
4 Trebevic, and it's opposite the hospital.
5 Q. Do you happen to know where the Osmice Motel is located on that
7 A. The Osmice Motel is far higher up, and more northerly or
8 northeasterly, and it is on Mount Trebevic itself. It's quite a long way
9 off from there to the Jewish cemetery. It's also on the south side, but
10 viewed exactly from the hospital, it would be more to the southeastern
12 Q. Do you happen to know that during the conflict that was where the
13 BH army positions were?
14 A. What do you mean?
15 Q. I mean under the Osmice Motel
16 A. I don't know, but quite possibly, they were.
17 Q. In respect to the southern side of the hospital, viewed from that
18 side, can you see some hills at the foot of Mount Trebevic?
19 A. You mean from the south side?
20 Q. Yes. What can you see?
21 A. You can see the whole of Trebevic. If you were able to go up to
22 the top floors, if you dared go up to the top floors and look through the
23 open windows and the destroyed windows, the shattered glass, then you
24 could see Mount Trebevic in front of you.
25 Q. You were a military man yourself?
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 Q. You said you attended military training sessions?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you said you were in the medical corps and you had a military
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. Did you go to do training and exercises at Debelo Brdo?
8 A. No, I don't remember ever going there.
9 Q. And where in respect to the south side of the hospital was Debelo
11 A. You mean the southern side of the hospital?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Well, I don't know where Debelo Brdo is. I don't know where it
14 lies because there are lots of hills around Sarajevo. Now Debelo Hill or
15 Debelo Brdo is something I'm not acquainted with.
16 Q. What about Colina Kapa, have you heard about that Colina Kapa,
17 Velika and Mala --
18 A. Yes, Colina Kapa is at Trebevic. It's a long way off from the
19 hospital towards the northeast.
20 Q. Do you happen to know who controlled positions at Colina Kapa,
21 which is at the foot of Trebevic, as you said a moment ago?
22 A. Either the Territorial Defence or the Territorial Defence and the
23 army of Republika Srpska. I really don't know where that border line
24 was. You couldn't see that at all, however hard you looked.
25 Q. Were you ever at Colina Kapa?
1 A. No.
2 Q. I mean, you say you can't see it so how do you know?
3 A. Well, I -- you can't see it from the hospital. I was never there
4 but I couldn't see the demarcation line.
5 Q. Thank you. You have said that there was a lot of shelling. Can
6 you tell us for 1992, 1993, and 1994, what the intensity was looking at
7 those years?
8 A. As far as I remember, the most intensive shelling took place in
9 the second half of 1992, in 1993. And after 1993, the shelling slowly
10 subsided. In 1994, there were periods where there was a lull, and
11 peaceful periods established by the international community. And how long
12 this went on for, I can't say. But the best answer, to the best of my
13 recollection, is that the highest intensity was in 1992 and 1993, and
14 during 1994 and 1995, the shelling subsided. Looking at the situation as
15 a whole, of course this does not mean that there were not a great many
16 casualties in the latter half. The shelling might have been less
17 frequent, but their destructive power was still very great.
18 Q. Tell us, please, whether the hospital was visited by members of
19 UNPROFOR and UN observers?
20 A. Yes, it was.
21 Q. Did you talk to them?
22 A. Not me, no.
23 Q. Do you happen to know who contacted them on behalf of the
25 A. It was the management of the hospital, rather, the state
2 Q. More specifically, who from the management, any specific person or
3 the whole management team?
4 A. At that stage, we did not have a port parole for public
5 relations. We didn't have a public relations man, so it must have been
6 the whole of the management team. But the most exposed person when it
7 came to these guests was the executive director of the hospital itself.
8 Q. And who was the executive director?
9 A. He was Dr. Bakir Nakas.
10 Q. When these incidents took place, and let me quote an example in
11 point, the one on the 11th floor where you yourself were present, who did
12 you inform about the incident that took place, and did anybody come, any
13 representative of the official bodies, to take note of the situation, take
14 stock of it and to look at the -- what was caused by the incident?
15 A. Of course, I informed the administration. But they were such
16 onslaughts which were so visible that you didn't have to report
17 specifically. Anybody who happened to be in the hospital at that time was
18 conscious of a projectile having hit the hospital. The only thing that
19 you couldn't know was where the hospital had been hit, actually. It was
20 such a strong explosion and so shattering that there was absolutely no
21 dilemma whether it was a hit or not, but yes, we did inform the
22 administration, and then they would take the necessary steps and look at
23 the extent of the damages, appraise, assess the extent of the damage.
24 Q. Do you know who would come on the spot to perform this
1 A. The members of the management would.
2 Q. Did any representative of the government of the authorities or UN
3 observers and UNPROFOR come?
4 A. I can't remember an event of that kind, but quite possibly they
6 Q. Regardless of the fact that you yourself were not a member of the
7 management at that level, was the question of the hospital's work and
8 functioning resolved, because you said that the regular lines were between
9 100 and 300 metres?
10 A. Yes, only at that level.
11 Q. Were you present when those meetings took place?
12 A. I attended professional meetings, but not the management meetings
13 concerning administration.
14 Q. But you do know that such meetings were held?
15 A. You mean administration managerial meetings? Well, they must have
16 been, otherwise, how could you manage such a large institution? Quite
17 certainly, there were.
18 Q. Do you happen to know whether any solutions were found to the work
19 and functioning of the hospital as it was located along the separation
20 line, 100 to 300 metres as the crow flies?
21 A. Well, 100 metres would be too close. But 300 or 400 metres, yes,
22 that would be right, that would be the distance. And the characteristic
23 feature, and I would like to stress this, was that the hospital, during
24 the war, did not stop working for a single second. There was nobody who
25 was wounded and injured today who would say that he did not get adequate
1 medical assistance in the hospital at that time. Everybody did, and I
2 think that the management was responsible for that, through their own
3 personal initiative and work, enabled the continuous functioning of the
5 Q. So you don't know of any meeting or protest on the part of the
6 management with respect to the hospital's position in view of the fact -
7 let me repeat again - that throughout the war the hospital was working
8 only 300 to 400 metres away from the separation line, from the front line?
9 A. There was no choice. It had to go on working.
10 Q. Do you happen to know that some hospitals from Sarajevo were
11 displaced, and that in the surrounds of Sarajevo, field hospitals or
12 provisional hospitals were set up?
13 A. I don't know about that, but quite possibly the Territorial
14 Defence did set up their infirmaries or field hospitals, because that is
15 the principle of every modern-day army.
16 Q. Do you happen to know where the inhabitants of Grbavica went for
17 treatment if they had any health problems or if they were injured or
19 A. I think -- I can only say that on the basis of what I heard, if
20 you accept that, if you accept that kind of statement. But I didn't see
21 it myself. But I do know that later on, that at Grbavica, there was a
22 general practice dispensary, an infirmary, and the army of Republika
23 Sprska had its own. There was a military hospital at Sokolac, and another
24 hospital set up at Pale, and in Kasindol, there was a hospital there, too
25 which in peacetime had been a hospital for chest diseases, lung diseases.
1 And I think those were the health institutions of the Serb population or,
2 rather, the army of Republika Srpska but I did not visit them during the
3 war. I'm just telling you that from what my colleagues told me and from
4 what I learned from the media.
5 Q. How about Ilidza, was there a hospital there during the conflict?
6 A. I didn't hear about that.
7 Q. Where did the inhabitants of Ilidza, Vogosca, go for treatment,
8 and those settlements?
9 A. I don't know. I don't know. Probably, they had dispensaries or
10 infirmaries, outpatient departments of some kind there.
11 Q. You said that the Grbavica inhabitants went for treatment to the
12 hospitals that you mentioned where the Serbs would get medical treatment.
13 So that would mean that the hospital you worked in treated the Muslim
14 ethnic population group?
15 A. That's not what I said. You asked me where the inhabitants of
16 Grbavica went for medical treatment, and I said -- I answered your
17 question on the basis of the knowledge I had received from the media and
18 others. But the overall population was treated in the health institutions
19 which were under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that
20 was a multi-ethnic population. I have to say that. It was a multi-ethnic
21 population, which means in our hospital during the war, we gave medical
22 treatment to members of all ethnic groups, and you can see that from our
23 protocol books.
24 Q. Did you make entries in your protocol book and write in the
25 nationalities, Serb, Croat, and so on?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. No, we did not. No.
2 Q. So how then can you see this from the ethnic makeup, from the
3 protocol book?
4 A. Well, you know our names are usually quite specific, so by looking
5 at a name, for all practical purposes in the majority of cases, you can
6 judge the ethnic affiliation of a person on the basis of their name. Not
7 always, of course, but usually.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I ask you, looking at the clock,
9 it's almost 10.30. How much time would you still need to conclude your
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you would like us to
12 take a break. I think I will need another 10 minutes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps I suggest that you try to do it as quick
14 as possible, and you finish it first, if that's okay with the
15 interpreters. So if you take another 10 minutes, that would be an hour
16 and a half.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I said an hour and a half, Your
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, we'll look in the transcript.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think I said an hour and a half,
21 Your Honour. At the end of the transcript, I think you will find it. But
22 I will adhere to the 10-minute time limit now.
23 Q. You have told us that occasionally, there was water available.
24 Can you tell us what the situation was with gas at the hospital?
25 A. Yes, occasionally we had water. That's true. And as for gas, we
1 were connected to the gas pipeline later, and the supply was irregular.
2 Q. Since you mentioned that the hospital had its own generators,
3 electricity generators, were they working?
4 A. They were, but they are only small appliances, small generators
5 which provide electricity to operating theatres and enable complex
6 technological equipment to work, whereas the big generator was never
7 switched on because it consumes a lot of oil.
8 Q. As for humanitarian aid, from which organisations did you receive
10 A. I don't know about organisations. We received it from the
11 international community, generally speaking.
12 Q. You told us that the aid was bad, that the medication was of bad
13 quality. What does that mean?
14 A. We cannot generalise here, nor should we. Out of the aid
15 contingents that we received, there was a wide range of medical supplies,
16 including some whose date of expiry was past, including some inadequate
18 Q. What does it mean, inadequate medicine?
19 A. That means when you get medicine against malaria while you are in
20 the town of Sarajevo. An inadequate medicine is a medicine which is
21 intended for a totally different area. Generally speaking, this aid was
22 never the best in terms of adequacy and sufficiency, but it was good.
23 Q. Did you have any problems with oxygen supply?
24 A. Yes, we did have major problems with that. And at one stage, we
25 were helped out by the UNPROFOR who brought us oxygen bottles. And later
1 on, we managed to procure, again through the international community,
2 oxygenators or oxygen generators, and for the first time we started
3 performing operations, providing anaesthesia with the help of these
5 Q. Who was in charge of oxygen supplies in the hospital?
6 A. I don't know. I really don't know. You have to ask the
7 management. At any rate, it was the technical service.
8 Q. Were there any problems with the issuing of oxygen? Did the
9 oxygen bottles disappear?
10 A. I don't know. I think not.
11 Q. And another question, you told us that you wrote in the admissions
12 protocol whether a person was a civilian or a soldier.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You told us that Serbs were treated at the hospital.
15 A. I said the Serbs, too. Of course.
16 Q. Do you know that Serbs who had been brought from the prison were
17 treated at the hospital, people with visible injuries from physical
18 mistreatment and beating?
19 A. I have no knowledge about that at all.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, those would be all my
21 questions, with the proviso that I would like to ask this witness
22 additional questions if my learned friends from the Prosecution are
23 allowed further questioning about the video material that will be shown
25 I would prefer to wait for my colleagues from the Prosecution to
1 ask their questions about the videoclip, and then I would have some
2 additional questions regarding their examination on the video material.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We will consider that during the break,
4 Ms. Pilipovic. I have, however, to point out to you that when the
5 Prosecution asked to question immediately upon showing the video, your
6 co-counsel said that it was not agreed that they could immediately put any
7 questions. So we will consider that during the break. I've got one more
8 question to you at this moment. We had some difficulties in the beginning
9 to find the exact place in the transcript on the presence of military in
10 the hospital. Has this been clarified by now, and would this cause any
11 additional question to be put to the witness at this moment? Because we
12 have still 3 or 4 minutes.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have the official
14 result. I said it was 18.09.35. And if we could have the question read
15 out from the transcript, I would appreciate it. Whether it was a question
16 concerning the presence of military units, that is, if there were any
17 armed soldiers there.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in 30 seconds
20 I'm going to check those texts to see if we are talking about the same
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you please would do that during the break, then
23 you have an opportunity to put this additional question immediately after
24 the break. We will consider what would be the order of questioning after
25 the break, and then of course the Prosecution will have the opportunity to
1 play the videotape. We will have a break until 11.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for resuming a bit later than we
5 indicated but the Chamber thought it wise to look at the transcript as
6 well, which we just received during the break. And in order to avoid any
7 misunderstanding, I would just like to check with the Defence whether the
8 lines they would like to confront the witness with, who is not yet in the
9 courtroom, are the following lines: It's immediately -- I have got it in
10 my transcript on page 63 at 18.02.46. The transcript as it is now, reads
11 as following: Immediately after the problems with the -- technical
12 problems with the video, I read: "Doctor, could I ask you that during the
13 time that we have been talking about, from late 1992 through to the middle
14 of 1994, was there any military presence in the state hospital? By that,
15 I mean the presence of any armed soldier." The answer was "No."
16 Question, "Was the -- " Then the answer continues: "In the hospital
17 there was never any armed soldier present. The soldiers that came to the
18 hospital on any basis, whether they were injured and wounded or needing
19 medical aid and assistance or whether they came to visit somebody who was
20 sick in hospital would always leave their weapons outside the hospital
21 complex in a separate room designated for that."
22 That's the lines we've spotted, and I see that there are several
23 other lines which deal with the JNA leaving the hospital. So that's what
24 we could find. So could you please clarify, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether
25 this is the place you were talking about earlier.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, thank
2 you. Most certainly, in that passage. We have some problems in finding
3 the lines in the system, but we'll get better at it certainly. We are,
4 indeed, speaking about this answer. The witness declared there had never
5 been during the period 1992, 1994 armed personnel within the hospital.
6 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I remember, the question put to the witness
7 where he was confronted with at least a possible contradiction was about
8 another period of time, so I don't know whether it's of any use to put
9 this question again to the witness. But I leave that up to the Defence.
10 Then apart from that, the Chamber has considered whether the
11 Defence will have a possibility for questioning the witness on the issue
12 of the video. You have within the same time limits as the Prosecution
13 will use, the possibility of questioning the witness on the video and
14 strictly limited on the video. And I also can announce to you that this
15 Chamber will take the Christmas recess to think over more thoroughly again
16 the old question, I may say, the old question of whether the
17 cross-examination will have to stay within the limits of the
18 examination-in-chief, which is a rather difficult question. But it's just
19 to announce. If you perhaps would find that some training today would be
20 good, then I'm not opposing against it.
21 Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Indeed, I had in mind that
23 I would rise to my feet at the conclusion of this witness's evidence to
24 raise that issue and to respectfully suggest that it be dealt with when
25 the Trial Chamber resumes in January. But at this stage to point out that
1 already the Prosecution has some problems as a result of that order and
2 recommendation. On the 16th of November, the Pre-Trial Judge ordered that
3 the Prosecution case be limited to 280 hours, and that period of time
4 includes cross-examination, re-examination, and the Prosecutor's opening.
5 280 hours is approximately the time the Prosecution had indicated to the
6 Pre-Trial Chamber it would require for just evidence in chief, not for
8 Mr. President, there's a second issue, if I could. His Honour
9 goes on to make a recommendation that the cross-examination of a witness
10 should not exceed the time of the examination-in-chief. If I may refer to
11 this witness as an example of how that is operating, the estimate given by
12 the Prosecution in its Rule 65 ter summary for this witness was one hour.
13 That was amended in the material that was handed to the Trial Chamber last
14 week to one and a half hours. I now have the times. Examination-in-chief
15 of this witness took one hour and 26 minutes. Cross-examination has taken
16 1 hour and 55 minutes. In other words, already the Defence has gone
17 outside that recommendation.
18 My proposal is that any time limit on cross-examination is --
19 has an air of unreality about it. It may be appropriate in many
20 circumstances that cross-examination take less than the time taken in
21 chief, on other occasions that it take more than the time taken in chief.
22 My respectful submission is that the relevant issue is that is relevance.
23 And that should be the guiding principle rather than an artificial time
25 So, Mr. President, I respectfully suggest that when we reconvene
1 in January, that this issue be revisited and reconsidered, and I
2 anticipate that will be my primary submission. In the meantime, because
3 the Trial Chamber, and certainly the Prosecution, is confined by the
4 orders and is subject to the recommendation, it will be necessary for us
5 to take some measures in relation to our next witness. In other words, we
6 will take less time in chief than we otherwise would have, and we do that
7 also in the context that this witness has given evidence of a similar
9 The next witness will also be a doctor from the state hospital,
10 and where the same issues have been covered by this witness, we will not
11 lead that evidence. And we will leave it until January to consider the
12 issue as a whole. Thank you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I indicate to both parties that the mere fact that I
14 came already as an announcement by the Chamber with our intention to
15 review this question thoroughly, that it's of great concern to the
16 Chamber. And we're a bit handicapped by the fact that the decision of the
17 16th of November of the Pre-Trial Judge, there's still an appeal pending.
18 So that I wouldn't say binds our hands, but it makes us a bit -- makes
19 us -- we are trying to proceed not too drastically as this appeal is still
21 But if we could, as I told you, even without giving a binding
22 order at this moment, if we could try and do some training. Of course,
23 the time, I have been noting down also what time examination-in-chief and
24 cross-examination took. If you could try to see where we can come -- if
25 we try to do our best today, then this might be helpful for the Chamber to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 give any rulings in January as well. So in order not to lose any more
2 time, could you please bring in the witness, Mr. Usher.
3 Ms. Pilipovic, would there still be this one question to be
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mandilovic, you said that in the month of
9 April, before the army -- the Yugoslav People's Army left the hospital,
10 the hospital had been surrounded by the patriotic league or the
11 Territorial Defence. Were there any troops within the hospital and
12 armaments? You were there the whole month of April.
13 A. I think I have already said something about this, and I'll
14 repeat. Sometime in mid-April, there came a smaller military contingent
15 to the military hospital.
16 Q. I'm sorry, I have to remind you that you did not mention it,
17 either during the examination-in-chief or during the cross-examination.
18 You just said that the patriotic league surrounded the hospital.
19 A. I'm sorry about that. In mid-April, a not very large contingent
20 of troops arrived at the hospital. I think there were about 10 or 15 of
21 them, including two officers, one older and one younger.
22 Q. Can you tell us the names of those officers? That would be my
23 last question.
24 A. I don't know the names of the officers or the soldiers. They took
25 up the 12th floor. They spent their time there. They spent their nights
1 there. And from that point, they observed the surroundings. That's what
2 I know.
3 Q. Do you know, is that direct knowledge or indirect?
4 A. Both.
5 Q. Did you see them? Did you talk to them?
6 A. Yes, I did, informally, without going into any details, I talked
7 to them just as I would talk to anyone else.
8 Q. In the period of 1992, 1993, 1994, was there any weaponry around
9 the hospital like mortars and other weapons?
10 A. I didn't notice any around the hospital.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Blaxill.
12 MR. BLAXILL: My learned friend referred to 1992 in its entirety,
13 so she's outside the period. Could we make it precise as to which period
14 of 1992 she is talking about, please?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, would you please be more
16 specific as far as the year 1992 is concerned? And apart from that, your
17 indication that the question would be the last one seems to be irrelevant.
18 If you say it's the last question next time, I might say --
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honour. I
21 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I note the answer, however, that has
22 been given as I was rising, so I think it has become academic. So I would
23 withdraw the objection at this point.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So is there any further question to be put or was
25 this your last question?
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That was my last question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic. Now we are at a point
3 where the Prosecution may show the video. I hope its of a technically
4 better quality than last time.
5 MR. BLAXILL: Mr. President, Your Honours, we are indeed obliged
6 for the opportunity to try and cover that unfortunate technical problem we
7 had last time.
8 Further examination by Mr. Blaxill:
9 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, I am going to play, ask the Court system to play
10 to you a videotape, one where you will recall we had some technical
11 problems last time we tried to play it. I'd like you, please, to take a
12 close look at that video as it's played and I will have just one or two
13 questions for you.
14 MR. BLAXILL: Could we now please play the videoclip in question.
15 [Videotape played]
16 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you. I wonder now, please, if we can go back
17 to the beginning and just freeze the first picture image from that clip.
18 Yes, if you hold it frozen there, please.
19 Q. Doctor, do you recognise that building?
20 A. Yes, I do. That's the state hospital in Sarajevo.
21 Q. And can you tell us, please, which facade of the state hospital
22 that is? In other words, which direction does it face, north, south,
23 east, or west?
24 A. This side faces south.
25 Q. And can you, judging by the condition of the front of that
1 building, give any indication as to when, perhaps, that image was filmed?
2 A. I can't say for sure, but I can say with certainty that this shot
3 was not taken in 1992. It must have been taken later.
4 Q. Can you just tell us why you are able to make that conclusion?
5 A. Well, I think that in 1992, the damage to the facade and the
6 building of the state hospital was not so extensive. The damage was
7 inflicted progressively, so judging by the amount of damage, I believe
8 this picture was taken after 1992. It's difficult to say precisely.
9 Q. Now, we saw a number of interior scenes in that short videoclip.
10 Could you identify any of those interior shots and say whereabouts in the
11 building they were?
12 A. Yes, I can. I can identify these pictures very precisely because
13 I worked in those areas, in those rooms. In particular, the shot that
14 follows this shot of the facade is a room, women's cloakroom, which was
15 used as a bandaging room for injured and wounded people. It had been
16 vacated, and beds for the patients were put in. A few shots after that,
17 we can see a scene with some of the wounded patients, and specifically two
18 persons, a woman and a man, which were zoomed on by the camera. I also
19 know the nurse who was shown passing by, and that woman worked in the
20 hospital throughout the time.
21 Q. Can you tell us on what floor or floors those interior scenes were
23 A. On the ground floor level, and the location was the ladies'
24 cloakroom on the ground floor.
25 Q. And in the building - let us use compass reference - was that
1 towards the north side building, the south side, the east, or the west
2 A. The ladies' cloakroom is on the ground floor in the north wing.
3 Q. And Doctor, you say you recognised certainly two of the patients
4 there. From that recognition, can you give us an indication as to when
5 the scenes, including those patients, were shot or were filmed, I should
6 say, sorry?
7 A. I remember these patients because I took part in a way in their
8 treatment, or rather in their post-operative treatment. There were quite
9 a lot of patients, but I happen to remember these particular ones because
10 one of the specific features of them, they were a young boy and young
11 girl. They were boyfriend and girlfriend who had been wounded at the same
12 time, and they had serious injuries to their lower extremities, and they
13 were brought in at the same time.
14 Q. Can you say how old were those two people when they -- do you
16 A. Very young, about 20 years old.
17 Q. And do you remember when it was that they were brought in to have
18 their injuries treated?
19 A. I think it was sometime in 1993, but I fear I won't be precise
21 Q. Doctor, we've seen other images in there of candles and of people
22 at a sink and so forth. Can you say anything about the water and power
23 supply at the time that that filming was done? What were the conditions
24 in the hospital for that?
25 A. I think this footage shows the actual state of affairs governing
1 the working conditions in the hospital during the war. On the footage,
2 and the clip, you can see something that I described earlier on, the lack
3 of electricity, when we had to conduct complicated procedures by
4 candlelight, and you can also see that there's no running water at the
5 time. All the washing and rinsing had to be done with still water.
6 Q. Dr. Mandilovic, thank you. There's just one other point I would
7 like to address you on, and that is this: You have described an occasion
8 when a shell hit the 11th floor when you were on that floor. Can you tell
9 us, please, which side of the building that shell struck? Was it the
10 north, southeast, or west?
11 A. The south, exclusively the south side.
12 Q. If I can refer you back to the frozen image on the video, which
13 had gone -- I wonder whether that could be reinstated for just a moment.
14 Examining that image, Dr. Mandilovic, can you, in fact, point out
15 any damage to the building from that incident you described?
16 A. Yes. You can see it on the frozen image, the central part of the
17 11th floor, the middle of the 11th floor, when two patients' rooms were in
18 fact damaged in the centre.
19 Q. Can you tell us, of the number of floors shown in the image of the
20 building, which one is the 11th floor? Perhaps you can count from the top
22 A. The last floor, top floor, is floor number 12, so the one
23 immediately underneath that.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MR. BLAXILL: That concludes on that point. I'm obliged, again,
1 to Your Honours for us being able to do so.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill. Ms. Pilipovic, you have the
3 opportunity now to cross-examine on this video and questions related to
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I should
6 like to have the witness shown the frozen image again of the hospital.
7 May we have that image shown again, please.
8 Further cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
9 Q. Could the witness tell us where the Red Cross flag is on this
11 A. The Red Cross flag, the big Red Cross flag, was in the first
12 month's --
13 MR. BLAXILL: With all due respect, there has been no mention of a
14 Red Cross flag, and it is probably not even within the indictment period
15 and it's not an issue.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you mentioned a Red Cross flag, and as
17 far as I remember no Red Cross flag has, until now, been mentioned.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I wanted to ask
19 the witness where it was and within the frameworks of my
20 cross-examination, just to point out where it was because we know that
21 every hospital has its markings in wartime and that it always has a Red
22 Cross emblem somewhere on the hospital. Now I just wanted to know where
23 it was.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise. One second.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the objection is sustained. Until
2 now, there has been no mentioning in any way of a Red Cross sign on the
3 hospital, and as I indicated before, questioning would be limited to the
4 video shown and to questions asked concerning it. So you may proceed with
5 another question.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
7 the footage with the nurse on the premises, please.
8 A. We've passed the image.
9 Q. I understand that the nurse attended the operation.
10 A. This is not an operating theatre. It is the area where the
11 patients were lying during their treatment. This was -- so it was just
12 the bandaging stage, and the bandaging did not take place in the operating
13 theatre but on the spot on the wards in the rooms, in the rooms you see on
14 the footage.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the
16 footage again where we see that surgery is going on by candlelight, to
17 explain to us what that is all about. I apologise.
18 Q. Can you tell us the name of the doctor here that we see?
19 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour, I have to interpose. There was a
20 reference made to surgery. I don't think at any time Dr. Mandilovic said
21 this was a performance of surgery. This is some form of treatment, but
22 not surgery, as I understand.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please rephrase your question, if possible.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. On this image, can you identify the person -- the male person by
1 the candle?
2 A. No, I can't. I can't give you his name and surname. But I think
3 it was a physical therapist who was exercising the lower extremity, or in
4 more specific terms, the foot of this patient.
5 Q. How can you see this in this footage?
6 A. Well, you can see him exercising the foot. If you -- if the whole
7 clipping is shown, then you'll see that this physical therapist is
8 exercising the ankle joint.
9 Q. Do you know the name of the physical therapist?
10 A. No, I'm afraid I can't remember.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
12 the image of the patients lying in hospital. There's one of a woman
13 sitting down on a bed and talking to someone.
14 Q. Is that the patient that you know, the boy and girl that you know?
15 A. Yes, that's them. They were wounded together, and they were
16 boyfriend and girlfriend, and that's why they have adjoining beds.
17 Q. Can you tell us their names?
18 A. No, I'm afraid I can't remember.
19 Q. When were they brought into hospital? What time was this, what
21 A. I can't be sure, but it must have been perhaps 1993. It's
22 difficult to say. We had a lot of patients, and it was a long time ago.
23 So I really can't be more specific.
24 Q. How often did you see them and contact them, because you say you
25 remember them because you changed their bandages?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes, among others, I changed their bandages, too. I dressed their
2 wounds. Probably for about a month.
3 Q. How often did you dress their wounds during that month?
4 A. Perhaps once a day or every other day, depending on the needs and
5 how much available staff there was.
6 Q. Did you talk to them during that month?
7 A. Well, of course I did.
8 Q. Did they tell you where they had been wounded?
9 A. They did, certainly. I think they said in the Marijin Dvor.
10 MR. BLAXILL: I apologise. I think we are now going beyond the
11 time that we had discussed for the cross-examination on the issue of the
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, I did write down that we started at
14 least on the laptop at 11.24, we are now 11.31. That makes seven minutes
15 that you started at 11.15 and you went on until 11.24. So that's nine
16 minutes, so I think there are two minutes left for Ms. Pilipovic.
17 MR. BLAXILL: I stand corrected, Your Honour.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would
19 just like to have that frozen image again, please.
20 Q. Where was the patients' card placed?
21 A. It was on the side of the bed. We can't see it. On the railing
22 of the bed, just cut off.
23 Q. Did you write in the time that you changed the bandages?
24 A. No, actually, it's a temperature chart at the end of the bed.
25 Q. So what entries were made in that patients' card?
1 A. There are two things. When we speak about the patient's
2 administration, that's one thing, and then you have the temperature chart.
3 Q. What did it say on the case history?
4 A. On the case history, the -- it would say what the injuries or
5 wounds were and what surgical intervention was performed.
6 Q. Does the case history include anamnesis?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you take down the anamnesis on the basis of talks with the
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What did it actually say in the anamnesis?
12 A. I can't remember.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 Does the Prosecution want to put any additional questions,
17 re-examine the witness?
18 MR. BLAXILL: Mr. President, no, we do not, and in fact the only
19 thing I would now ask is if the videoclip could at this stage be marked
20 for identification purposes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think, if you would not mind, I've got a
22 whole list now of all kinds of things that went already through this
23 courtroom, and one of them, the last number, is the videoclip concerning
24 -- related to the testimony of Dr. Mandilovic. So I would rather go
25 through that whole list at a later stage, but I have noted that you
1 requested for marking for identification.
2 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: One of my colleagues, any questions?
4 No questions from the Bench. Then, Dr. Mandilovic, I would like
5 to thank you very much for coming a very long way to The Hague, and I wish
6 you a good journey home.
7 Mr. Usher, could you please guide the witness out.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, too,
9 Mr. President.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, and Mr. Ierace, who will be the next
12 witness called by the Prosecution?
13 MR. BLAXILL: It's Dr. Bakir Nakas.
14 JUDGE ORIE: As soon as the usher has come back to the courtroom,
15 I will ask him to bring the witness into the courtroom.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Nakas. Can you hear me in a
18 language you understand?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can, thank
20 you very much.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The Rules require you to make a solemn declaration of
22 which the text will be handed out to you, so I may invite you to make
23 this declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Mr. Blaxill, I presume.
2 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 THE COURT: You may proceed.
4 WITNESS: BAKIR NAKAS
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Examined by Mr. Blaxill:
7 Q. Dr. Nakas, how are you, sir?
8 A. Good morning. How do you do? I am fine.
9 Q. Could you please give your full name for the Chamber?
10 A. My name is Bakir Nakas.
11 Q. Date of birth, sir?
12 A. I was born on the 26th of April, 1949.
13 Q. Can you please tell us what your professional qualifications are.
14 A. I am a graduated physician, a specialist for infectious diseases,
15 and for the past ten years, I have been performing the duties of an
16 administrative person. Administrator, I beg your pardon.
17 Q. Where do you perform those duties of administration?
18 A. Since the 10th of May, 1992, I have held the post as responsible
19 administrator of the state hospital of Sarajevo.
20 Q. The state hospital in Sarajevo, we've heard something about,
21 Dr. Nakas. Can you tell me, sir, initially, when the conflict began in
22 Sarajevo, was there any particular step you took to highlight the identity
23 of state hospital as a medical facility?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence objects.
1 My colleague said when the conflict began in Sarajevo. Could he specify
2 which time he means? The witness has said nothing about that. And my
3 learned colleague put the question himself as to when the conflict in
4 Sarajevo began.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, could you be more precise.
6 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, I'll be more precise.
7 Q. Was there a time in 1992 when you took such a step in respect of
8 your hospital?
9 A. Officially speaking, on the 10th of May, the hospital was taken
10 over by the legal authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And up until then,
11 it had been a military hospital in which, up until the 8th of April, I
12 worked as a specialist doctor for infectious diseases. Upon arrival at
13 the hospital again on the 10th of May, I was appointed administrator,
14 hospital administrator, and in those first days, we undertook to visibly
15 mark the building to show that it was a health institution. And this
16 implied -- this implied raising a Red Cross emblem in a visible place on
17 the hospital.
18 Q. Whereabouts was that visible place and how large was this emblem?
19 A. The hospital is located at Marijin Dvor, which is a district -- a
20 central district of Sarajevo. And on several sides, it dominates the
21 area. And the sign of the Red Cross was placed on the south side of the
22 hospital, which was -- which faced directly towards Vrace hill and
23 Trebevic. And from that location, the shells started flying. As for
24 size, it was a standard type of flag which was no larger or smaller than
25 the flag that is used for designating the state. Perhaps it was slightly
2 Q. Can you please say for how long that flag remained on the -- on
3 the south side of the building?
4 A. I think it remained there in the course of May, June, July, until
5 September 1992.
6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, please, why it was then removed?
7 A. As the flag was exposed to gunfire, it was all tattered, and that
8 was the reason why we took it down.
9 Q. You have said that that side of the building faces towards Vrace
10 hill and Trebevic, and you have made reference to "shells started
11 flying." Could you please tell us how you determined?
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness did not
13 speak about Trebevic and Vrace. That was a question by my learned
14 colleague, or perhaps I was not paying due attention. If we could go back
15 and have a look at that part.
16 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I think about line 16, 17 of page 59,
17 the answer included south side of the hospital which faced directly
18 towards Vrace hill and Trebevic. And he says from that location, the
19 shells started flying.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic. Could you please --
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see it now, yes, on
22 that page it does indeed say Vrace and Trebevic. Thank you
23 JUDGE ORIE: May I suggest that we first verify the basis of our
24 objections and only then put them. You may proceed, Mr. Blaxill.
25 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Dr. Nakas, I was going to ask you in what way did you make the
2 conclusion that you stated from that location the shells started flying.
3 On what evidence did you base that?
4 A. I spent practically the entire month of March in the former
5 military hospital as an active military person. And at the beginning of
6 April, when it was possible to see certain firing positions from which the
7 city of Sarajevo was targeted, it was possible to see this from the higher
8 up floors of the central hospital building. And in my free time, on
9 several occasions, I would go up there to those upper floors and look
10 out towards the locations from which the shelling was coming and from
11 which the shells fell on the city of Sarajevo. And one of those places
12 was Vrace, Hresa, and the other surrounding hills around Sarajevo which
13 can be seen from the hospital with the naked eye.
14 The hospital itself, on the 13th of May, received a direct hit
15 from Vrace, and in my personal assessment, it was a tank projectile. And
16 after that, the sign was put up on the hospital building to show that it
17 was a health institution.
18 Q. Could you tell anything else from looking at the actual structure
19 of your hospital that helped you in making a determination as to the
20 source of fire?
21 A. As I have already said, as the hospital building is the dominant
22 building in this part of town in addition to several other buildings, the
23 two UNIS buildings of the UNIS corporation, and the former government
24 building of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the entire circle of 360 degrees, you
25 could use to position and to look at the positions of the hills
1 surrounding Sarajevo, which means that a visible distance, you could make
2 out Mount Igman, Trebevic, Hresa. But Hum was blocked from view on the
3 Vogosca side so that that northerly part was not clearly visible. You
4 could see the south side best, partially the eastern reaches and the
5 western side, in part, as well.
6 Q. What about -- what could you tell, however, by just looking at the
7 facade of the building and any of the holes you could see? Did that
8 help tell you anything about the source and type of fire?
9 A. Absolutely correct. The south side of the hospital was the most
10 exposed to the fire, and almost 85 to 90 percent of hits were on that side
11 of the hospital. A lesser number of hits came from the eastern side or
12 direction, one from the north, and on the western side, I think there was
13 not a single hit. I'm talking about the whole period, not only in the
14 first months of 1992, but the rest of the time as well.
15 Q. Dr. Nakas, if I can move on, please, to the period after -- in
16 fact, the month of September of 1992. May I ask you about the effects of
17 sniping activity in the vicinity of the hospital, and I had only one
18 question really. Were there any occasions where patients or staff within
19 the hospital were injured as a result of sniper fire, inside the hospital,
20 that is?
21 A. As I have said, the hospital is located at the centre of Marijin
22 Dvor, and a part of it faces directly the Trscanska, the street which
23 connects the Kranjceviceva Street with the Marsal Tito Street. That
24 street was known for a while as the sniper alley. As for the developments
25 and woundings in the hospital itself, I can say that in October 1992, my
1 secretary, who was at the time standing between my office and her office
2 in the doorway, sustained a wound from a large bullet fired from a weapon
3 we call PAM, anti-aircraft machine-gun. And the following year, in 1993,
4 several people were wounded inside the hospital building on the side which
5 is in the direct vicinity of the Trscanska Street.
6 Q. Was there any particular incident involving yourself in or about
7 August 1993?
8 A. In that same office in which my secretary worked, during one of
9 the morning meetings with the management of the hospital, a bullet flew
10 in, also the PAM calibre, from the right-hand side of my desk. It hit the
11 wall behind my back, ricocheted against another wall on my left side, and
12 passed between my head and the head of my colleague who was sitting
13 opposite me, and landed in the corner of the room.
14 Q. Were you able both in the incident with your secretary and the one
15 you have just described to us, were you able to work out the origin of
16 fire on those occasions? If so, how?
17 A. Judging by the location of the first impact, one could conclude
18 that the position from which both hits originated was the slope of the
19 Trebevic, which was called Kranjcevicenva. It is linked directly to the
20 Vrace hill. It's an extension of the Vrace hill when you are talking
21 towards Trebevic. It was not possible to conclude anything judging by the
22 hole on the window -- in the window pane because there were no window
23 panes. The windows were covered by foil. But the location of the impact
24 inside the room led us to conclude where the bullet originated from.
25 Q. And who actually held those territories that you have just
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 referred to on Trebevic and Vrace hill?
2 A. I was born and bred in Sarajevo, and I know the roads around the
3 town and I know the sections which were taken over in March and April by
4 the then-Yugoslav People's Army. I also had some partial - and I am
5 emphasise partial - knowledge about units of the JNA and the activities
6 taking place surrounding Trebevic and on Trebevic itself, where trenches
7 were being dug and connecting trenches under the pretext that they were
8 needed for a military drill.
9 Q. If I may move forward, too, in fact the time from September 1992
10 onwards, Doctor, can you tell us who actually held that territory of Vrace
11 hill and of Trebevic at that time?
12 A. Practically from the 2nd of May, the first day when the barricades
13 were put up in Sarajevo in 1992, when the position was marked which would
14 later become the separation line, that area was under the control of the
15 Serbian population of that part of the town, and the Yugoslav People's
17 Q. But turning to the time after September of 1992, what was the name
18 of the force or group that held Vrace and Trebevic? By what name did you
19 know them?
20 A. In that period, members of the units who were holding this area
21 were members of what we thought of as the former JNA and the so-called
22 Serbian army.
23 Q. And what did you know those people as at the time, say, that the
24 bullet came in your office, in August 1993? By what name did you know
25 those forces to be called then?
1 A. Most often it was the Serbian army.
2 Q. Doctor, can you tell us, in the course of 1992, 1993, and into the
3 first half of 1994, what did you observe as the mental and emotional
4 effect that the shelling and the sniping in Sarajevo had on the
5 population, from your own observations?
6 A. As I am a doctor, and also a person who had opportunity to have
7 first-hand experience of all that was happening in Sarajevo, and I had a
8 lot of contact with other people, I observed that people were prone to
9 fear, depression. Some of them were lost. And I also encountered one of
10 the cases which were very remarkable; namely, on the 2nd of May [as
11 interpreted] when my father suddenly died while he was buying his
12 newspaper outside the kiosk, and I found him dead in the morgue early that
13 afternoon. It was only 15 days later, after the funeral, that my mother
14 tried on two occasions to slash her veins and commit suicide. And she was
15 a person who until that time was completely normal, and I know this
16 because she brought us up.
17 Q. Doctor, sorry, if I may --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, excuse me. I
19 think that there is a problem in the translation. I'm not quite sure. I
20 thought I heard the 2nd of March, and not the 2nd of May as appeared in
21 the transcript. So I should like to draw your attention to that. Thank
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate the line you're referring
25 MR. BLAXILL: Page 65, line 5.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I see.
2 Could you please ask the witness again whether -- as it is in the
3 transcript now, whether this is correct or not.
4 MR. BLAXILL:
5 Q. Dr. Nakas, we have a little confusion, the date you gave for the
6 death of your father. Can you tell us again what that date was and what
7 were the circumstances again briefly?
8 A. Since you asked me about the mental health of the population in
9 1992, and not specifically from the date when I was appointed
10 administrator at the hospital, I said that I had a fresh memory of the
11 death of my father on the 2nd of March, 1992, and that the day when the
12 barricades were put up, the first barricades were put up in the city of
13 Sarajevo was very well remembered because the barricades marked the future
14 position of the separation line.
15 Q. I thank you for that, Doctor. Now, there's one other thing we
16 would like to address, please, and that is a question of documentation.
17 Can you please very briefly describe during the conflict, what were the
18 methods of record keeping that you had at your hospital, how would a
19 record be created and kept for a patient when they were admitted.
20 A. I think I mentioned in my statement that until the 10th of May,
21 1992, the hospital was a military hospital in which the entire
22 administration and the protocols were identical to those of the overall
23 administration prevailing in the medical corps of the Yugoslav People's
24 Army. As the hospital had large stocks of records and archives of all the
25 patients, the reports of specialists and referrals, and since I and the
1 personnel who continued working in May 1992 at the hospital were mostly
2 the former staff of the military hospital, the administration and the
3 protocols were identical to the procedures that we had followed for the
4 previous ten years, with the proviso that the so-called computer analysis
5 procedures had been introduced for the purpose of later processing the
6 central unit in Belgrade.
7 Records were kept in offices, case histories were kept; discharge
8 lists and all the accompanying specialists reports and referrals were
9 identical to the form they had before 1992 with the --
10 Q. Doctor, if I could just interrupt you, may we just take very
11 briefly a kind of step-by-step procedure. What is done and by whom is it
12 done when the patient first comes into the hospital as a wounded person
13 during that period.
14 A. There existed infirmaries or outpatient clinics and the centre of
15 emergency medical aid. This centre for emergency medical aid and all the
16 offices had their admission protocols in which based on the patient's
17 statement, a record was made of the date of admission, name, year of
18 birth, diagnosis, treatment, plus a remark or a suggestion made to the
19 patient as well as a note concerning insurance, that is, whether the
20 patient in question had military-issued insurance or civilian insurance.
21 If a patient was admitted --
22 Q. Let me stop you there. This covers all patients. Now, at that
23 point, who would have made those kind of entries? Prior to the point of
24 the full admission to hospital, who would have made those entries and what
25 level of training did they have to do that process?
1 A. They were called medical technicians or nurses who were trained
2 for that job and had worked on that job before as staff of the military
3 hospital. In certain cases, the doctor also made certain entries in the
4 protocol if the case involved specific interventions on the patient.
5 But the records, that is the protocols, were generally the responsibility
6 of medical technicians.
7 Q. And subsequent to the admission of a patient into hospital for
8 some kind of treatment or surgery or whatever, what would then be the kind
9 of record kept about that patient and who would be the one to keep that
10 record and maintain it as they were being treated?
11 A. As I said, there is an admission unit at the hospital where the
12 main log is kept of the patients who were admitted as inpatients. In that
13 unit, the patient would get a registration number under which he was
14 admitted. In the hospital, a case history would be opened including more
15 extensive details of the patient including his full address, a contact
16 person in case of death, or in case the patient needed to be brought
17 something. A record would be made also of his blood type, his RH factor,
18 and this was done by medical technicians who entered administrative data.
19 The case history was filled by the doctors who received the
20 patient and it consisted of two parts: One of them was the interview or
21 the anamnesis, that is to say, whatever data can be provided by the
22 patient himself on his condition and disease, and the second part, the
23 doctor's report. That is the doctor's findings in the case.
24 In the same file as the case history, other documents such as the
25 temperature chart, specialist reports and all the relevant data were also
1 kept such as the surgery list, the anaesthesiologistís list, and at the end
2 of the treatment, an epicesis [phoen] would be issued and the discharge
3 list detailing the treatment and the condition of the patient at
4 discharge. That was done by the doctors who were dealing with a patient.
5 Q. And after that, what is the procedure for keeping those records
6 and can you say what authority or responsibility you personally have in
7 respect of records of your hospital?
8 A. After the patient was admitted, his case history would be sent to
9 the ward in which he was treated. Upon completion of the treatment, case
10 histories were placed in envelopes, and in the first months or the first
11 years, in 1992 and 1993, they were kept in various departments.
12 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I was just asking specifically about
13 the archiving, the keeping of your records, and then what authority you
14 have in your particular position in respect of those records.
15 A. After the patients were discharged, the case histories were placed
16 in the archive, and it was the responsibility of the administrator to
17 issue a copy of the report at the request of the patient or a third party
18 within a period of 40 years. As far as I know, nothing has changed in the
19 regulations governing archives to this day.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, would this be a proper moment to have a
21 short break for 20 minutes?
22 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, indeed.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll have a break until 20 minutes until 1.00,
24 and then we'll continue until a quarter to 2.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for resuming a bit late. General Galic.
3 Mr. Usher is bringing in the witness. Okay.
4 Mr. Blaxill, you may proceed.
5 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Dr. Nakas, just before the break, you stated it was the
7 responsibility of the administrator to issue a copy of the report at the
8 request of patients or third parties. In your present occupation, sir,
9 and the one you've held for some years, what is your authority in that
10 regard? Is that your responsibility?
11 A. Yes. At the request of a third party, I am authorised to be able
12 to issue a copy of the report being requested on behalf of the hospital.
13 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, at this point I have a batch of
14 documentation I would like to have handed, if I may, to the witness, if I
15 could have the usher's assistance.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher.
17 MR. BLAXILL: I believe all appropriate copies have been
18 distributed and they have been disclosed earlier to my learned friends
19 either in the course of disclosure or indeed a fresh bundle for purposes
20 of today's use anyway.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And you intend to tender them into evidence later
23 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, indeed, Your Honour.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Blaxill, could you please provide the numbers
25 of the documents that you will be using, please, for the record?
1 JUDGE ORIE: They are on the list?
2 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, Your Honour. You will see each batch is
3 actually given a prosecution number label. So on the record I can say
4 that the current bundles are P1601, P3369, and I think 69.1, which is a
5 translation, 2794 and 2795, P2506, P2183, P2795, P3573, and I think a
6 point 1 as well as a translation, and P2265. I believe that --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, if someone on your team can check
8 whether the numbers are right in the transcript while you proceed.
9 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged, Your Honour. Thank you.
10 Q. Dr. Nakas, could you look at the bundle of documents that you have
11 been handed. Are you familiar with that bundle of documents?
12 A. Yes, some of these documents are familiar. They are copies of
13 findings or reports of original documents which are stored in the
14 hospital. Others are photocopies of the originals such as the case
15 histories or discharge sheet, and the specialist findings that were given
16 the patient after an intervention of any kind was performed on them while
17 they were at the hospital.
18 Q. Are you, therefore, able to authenticate that they are true copies
19 of records from your hospital in respect of the named patients?
20 A. Yes, with the proviso that sometimes the copies are of original
21 discharge letters and specialist findings which the patients have in their
22 own possession. But the text that is included in those findings is also
23 to be found in the hospital protocol book.
24 Q. Doctor, if you could just look at the very top bundle. I believe
25 the patient name is Taric. Can you indicate within the records relating
1 to that person which shows, as it were, the history that is taken down?
2 In other words, the information as to the alleged cause of injury and the
3 initial diagnostic description. Can you just point out the document in
4 that bundle, for instance, which would show where that is located in the
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate in what exhibit number?
7 MR. BLAXILL: It is P1601. For our translation purposes, it is
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 MR. BLAXILL:
11 Q. Is there a document in that point bearing the signature of a
12 Dr. Vuletic?
13 A. Yes. It is on the front page of the case history form. It says
14 Taric, father's name: Ermin, Elma, the date of birth, the address, the
15 category of the person insured, and the diagnosis or rather the medical
16 intervention, and indicating when the patient was discharged. It was
17 signed by the department doctor and the head of the department.
18 Q. And in this particular case, who was the department doctor and who
19 was head of department?
20 A. In this specific case, the head of the department surgery was
21 primarius Dr. Abdulah Hakas, and the department physician was Dr. Ranko
23 A. Thank you.
24 Q. Dr. Nakas, where you have case histories written down in this
25 nature, and there is a signature at the end of it of a doctor, would that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 person have been the one who actually noted down the history from that
3 A. In this concrete case, the anamnesis and examination of the
4 patient upon admission was conducted by Dr. Pandza, and you will find him
5 on the next page of this copy. And on the following page, the page after
6 that, the epicesis or conclusion was written by the department doctor,
7 that is to say, Dr. Ranko Vuletic.
8 Q. Dr. Nakas, where there is a passage of information written down in
9 one of these forms, and a signature follows it, is it the case that the
10 author of that passage of information is the person who signed it, or
11 could that have come from another source? In other words, would Dr.
13 have written the piece under which you see his signature, would Dr.
14 Vuletic have written the piece under which that signature appears?
15 A. Yes. For this specific patient, the first person to make an entry
16 was Dr. Pandza, and the conclusion and discharge was written by Dr. Ranko
17 Vuletic. The normal procedure is, standard procedure, is that the doctors
18 who are on duty when the patient is admitted have to make entries for all
19 the documents, and the person on duty when the patient is being
20 discharged, then that physician discharges the patient.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has a
22 slight problem of a technical nature. I am looking at Document P1601. It
23 is the discharge sheet, and it says Taric, Elma. Could my colleagues help
24 me. I am unable to identify the document where it says Dr. Pandza. What
25 page of the document is that?
1 MR. BLAXILL: I can assist that under the Exhibit Number P1601,
2 there are in fact four pieces of paper, essentially. Maybe five. There
3 is the front sheet, there is then a further extract, then there is - I
4 will pronounce this wrongly I'm sure - Istorija Bolesti, consisting of two
5 pages, and then the third. I wonder if it would assist with the ERN
6 numbers, which, in fact, run from 02116303 through to 6307. I wonder if
7 that helps my learned friend.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to thank my learned
9 colleague, but I've only got it now so that now I'm able to follow. The
10 bundle given to the Defence only has the first two pages, and then after
11 that it follows on with some other documents. So that's the problem. I
12 only have the discharge sheet and the signature of Dr. Jasminka [phoen]
13 for this particular patient. But now I will be able to follow with the
14 numbers you have given me and the documents given by the secretariat. We
15 won't have any problems in the future. Thank you.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you will
17 allow me as much as possible, the Defence would wish because of an
18 absolute rule -- general rule, at least, a few minutes before or perhaps a
19 few seconds hearing the documents to which reference is made, in
20 particular, when they have never been listed before. Thank you in
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, I noticed that we have got a list with
23 exhibit numbers on it, but we are now confronted with other exhibit
24 numbers as well, which might be a surprise for the Prosecution -- for the
25 Defence as well. I'm not quite sure whether you discussed this. And
1 apart from that, as far as I can see, that also P2272 and P2272.1 have
2 been handed out, although perhaps not mentioned, as Madam Registrar tells
3 me, on the record.
4 MR. BLAXILL: Then my apologies for an omission on my part if I
5 didn't read out that number to the record, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence enough prepared to proceed or -- could
7 you perhaps tell us when exactly the Defence was provided with at least
8 the numbers that would be used during this examination-in-chief?
9 MR. BLAXILL: That's a three-fold answer to that. Last week, they
10 were given the basic list with the numbers listed for the exhibits that
11 would compromise the documentation today. On Wednesday, I understand the
12 documents, but not with the exhibit numbers, and then today the documents
13 again with the exhibit numbers. That is my understanding.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But all the numbers -- because you mentioned a lot of
15 numbers. I've got three numbers on my list: 3573, 2272, and 2265. Or
16 have I missed -- is there a newer list which I do not know of, or are
17 these the three numbers indicated on the list under the name of Bakir
19 MR. BLAXILL: I would like to at some moment to check these
20 numbers against the documentation, Your Honour.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we ask to
22 have the numbers -- reference numbers, ERN reference numbers. It would be
23 much simpler to issue them immediately, Mr. Blaxill, electronically.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, I really have some problems because a
25 lot of exhibits with numbers other than on my list are handed out. The
1 same is true for the Defence; they should at least be given some time to
2 find their way through these new exhibits, because we are now discussing
3 Exhibit P1601, that is not on my list, for example.
4 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour, I'm sure we could resolve this with a
5 little time to look at the documentation. If I could just advise Your
6 Honours today, the very purpose of this is simply an issue of
7 authentication. As to contents and as to the application of any of these
8 documents to other elements of evidence subsequently in the trial, clearly
9 that is not a matter for today. We are simply dealing with
11 JUDGE ORIE: If it's just a matter of authenticity of the
12 documents, I suggest that we proceed. But if the Defence has any problems
13 with authenticity in a later stage, then of course they can come back to
14 it because it goes a bit too quick perhaps for them -- for me as well. So
15 you may proceed limited to this aspect.
16 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. The only thing I think I wanted to ask you now
17 about any particular document that we were looking at is simply: Would
18 the doctor who completed that note, would they just get the information
19 direct from the patient? Would that be their own source for that little
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise
22 really. Please excuse me. As I have already said, I have got a good part
23 of my documents on computer. Can the Prosecution give ERN numbers for
24 reference so that I can follow in my notes and not find myself in a
25 disadvantaged position?
1 JUDGE ORIE: I see on the original list, there are ERN numbers
2 mentioned. And I -- well, of course I haven't got them. Have you got --
3 the ERN number is the one that's on top?
4 MR. BLAXILL: The one I am talking about as this moment, Your
5 Honour, yes. In the Bosnian language, it is 02116306 and 6307; in the
6 English translation, 03033693695.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you will find them -- in the top
8 of the documents, you will find the number, as far as I can follow.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Blaxill.
10 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
11 questions on this issue of authenticity, Your Honours. Thank you. I'm
12 wondering at this point in time whether you wish to have them formally
13 tendered or you wish to mark them for identification until we are happy
14 that everybody has resolved any problems as regards numbering?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, do you proceed with the other documents as well
16 for authentification at this moment, or what's your intention?
17 MR. BLAXILL: Essentially, Your Honour, I'm inviting that we could
18 treat all these documents as authentic records of the hospital. That's
19 all -- the authenticity of the bundle --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
21 MR. BLAXILL: -- as identified by Dr. --
22 JUDGE ORIE: It's the whole bundle, all the documents --.
23 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then I -- I'm asking the Defence better -- even if it
25 were on a provisional basis, you could agree that these are copies of
1 authentic hospital documents. And I'll give you an opportunity, of
2 course, to challenge the authenticity of the documents at a later stage,
3 but just for practical sake, could we proceed just presuming at this
4 moment that these are authentic documents.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence must
6 point to a certain problem regarding authenticity at this point. On
7 several occasions during our meetings with our learned friends from the
8 Prosecution, the Defence put forward the problem of authenticity of
9 documents exchanged between the parties. You will notice that the
10 Prosecution, in its pre-trial brief and that --
11 [Technical problems]
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think that there's a problem with our transcript in
13 the screen. It might have a technical cause. It stops on one of my
14 screens at 13.09.42, and that is on the other one 10.08.55. Can the
15 problem be solved or -- I'm just looking desperately to the booth with the
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] On this score, Mr. President,
18 I think a page is missing a bit higher. I think a page is missing.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid that as long as there is no transcript, we
20 can't deal with any matter at this moment. So the only thing I'm
21 discussing now with Madam Registrar is the technical problem. We have to
22 wait for a technician who could solve the problem, and I'm told that he
23 will be there very soon. This, of course, doesn't prevent the parties for
24 looking for any missing pages and then report as soon as the hearing has
25 restarted what their findings are.
1 I'm told that the system is working again. I see on my screen
2 that the technical problem came up after I had said "I see on the original
3 list there are ERN numbers mentioned. And I, of course, I haven't got
4 them. Have you got the ERN number, that one that's on top?"
5 And Mr. Blaxill said, "The one I'm talking about ... in the
6 Bosnian language is," and then he started giving a number.
7 That's where we resume, Mr. Blaxill. So if you would finish what
8 you were saying there, and everything has to be repeated on from that
10 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. The ERN I see from these documents - I will
11 read - 02116305. And then 6306 and 6307 refers to the exemplar document
12 that we are actually discussing. In the translation, they are ER numbers
13 03033692, 93, 94, and 95.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 What I was saying a while ago was that I don't know if it's the same thing
17 on all screens, but on my screen at least, it seems that there is a gap
18 between page 48 and page 49. I infer it from the timing, from the time.
19 I don't know if it's specific to my own screen.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether -- you say page 48 to page 49.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Both.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We're talking now about half an hour ago or even
23 more. I'm afraid that we can't solve that now immediately but if Madam
24 Registrar would please write down a note that we have to check and we have
25 to see whether there's not a gap like usual for translation purposes in
1 French. But we'll check that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 Any other -- so I come back now to my suggestion that we would
3 just provisionally accept the authenticity of these documents with full
4 opportunity for the Defence to come back to that later because they have
5 to some extent been surprised by the exact numbers at this moment. Do you
6 agree? Ms. Pilipovic, you agree?
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. When you
8 gave me the floor, I wanted to state one very important fact, among other
9 things. The Defence and the Prosecution, before the filing of the
10 pre-trial brief, were required to discuss the authenticity of documents
11 discovered to the Defence and vice versa. We are now placed in a
12 situation where due to omissions made before the trial, the Defence is now
13 in a disadvantageous position because I am now supposed, midway through
14 the proceedings, to check whether I have these documents at all.
15 Therefore, I would appreciate it very much if my colleagues from the
16 Prosecution intend to introduce documents, to avoid wasting time, the
17 Court's time, they should present them to the Defence and discuss their
18 authenticity prior to their introduction in the courtroom so that we have
19 a ready position on the documents that my learned friends intend to
20 introduce in the courtroom. As for these particular documents --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Sorry to interrupt you. We are spending a lot of
22 time on identification of documents which perhaps in the presentation have
23 not been well prepared in the sense that the exact numbers have been
24 indicated before. Would you have the possibility to check this this
25 afternoon with the Prosecution - I think it takes just 20 minutes or
1 perhaps half an hour - and that we come back to it later. Of course, one
2 of the reasons they have been introduced now, I think, is because Dr.
3 Nakas is there. But perhaps before Dr. Nakas travels back to his home
4 country, perhaps there would be an opportunity to put out of court
5 whatever questions necessary to solve the problem.
6 I would like to have, if possible, a compromise between the
7 parties on the authenticity of these documents upon resuming.
8 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, Your Honours. I'm advised that in fact the
9 exact batch as handed to Dr. Nakas in court today was an identical batch
10 handed to the Defence on Wednesday evening, last Wednesday. So there
11 shouldn't be any difference between the two as of today. As I have said
12 earlier, it is an issue simply of authentication. Clearly, my learned
13 friends will at any time be able to deal with the contents in a future or
14 an appropriate date when they apply to give an individual's -- I'm sure we
15 can resolve this satisfactorily in the break between the proceedings. And
16 if Your Honour is prepared to accept, as it were, a provisional tender or
17 identification at this stage, that might help us resolve the issue very
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think provisionally we will then accept them as
20 authentic and of course the Defence can come back to that if there's any
21 reason for that. If these bundle of documents have been handed over last
22 Wednesday to the Defence with the clear indication that they would be used
23 today in Court, but I'm not going to enter into any yes and no games at
24 this moment on this issue.
25 So you may proceed.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. BLAXILL: Those were my questions in relation to the
2 authentication. I invited you to accept the documents, and you have now
3 ruled on that, and I have concluded in that respect.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Blaxill.
5 Do we have, Madam Registrar, for the provisional admission of
6 these documents into evidence the numbers we need?
7 The documents in the bundles, and as far as I can see, I have --
8 perhaps you'll read them, Madam Registrar, before they are provisionally
9 entered into evidence.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 1601, 3369, 3369.1, 2794,
11 2795, 2506, 2183, 2795, 3573, 3573.1, 2265, 2272, 2272.1.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, you may proceed with your
13 examination-in-chief or was this --
14 Mr. Blaxill: I had concluded. Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Ms. Pilipovic, do you want to cross-examine the
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Nakas, good morning.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. To the investigators of the Tribunal, you gave a statement on the
23 10th of November, 1995, one statement. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes. I can't remember the exact date. I gave several statements,
25 but I really cannot remember the exact date.
1 Q. I'll remind you because the Defence has these documents. It's on
2 the 10th November, 1995. Then from the 10th to the 12th of December,
3 1995, then the 26th of September, year 2001, and that was an interview
4 with my colleagues from the Prosecution. And on the 6th of --
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed the month of this year.
6 A. I think that is correct.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You said that you left the hospital on the 10th of April?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know the exact date?
11 A. It was the 8th of April, 1992, in the afternoon.
12 Q. You have the rank of lieutenant-colonel?
13 A. Yes, I was a lieutenant-colonel in the JNA until the 8th of April
14 when I signed the request for demobilisation.
15 Q. So you signed or applied for demobilisation?
16 A. When I was leaving the hospital, I was offered -- that is,
17 proffered a document. I can't remember the text, but it was a statement
18 to the effect that I, Bakir Nakas, was leaving the Yugoslav People's Army
19 on the 8th of April, 1992, and that document was supposed to be forwarded
20 for further processing.
21 Q. Did you personally make an application, or were you just given a
22 document to sign?
23 A. I was just given that document by the personnel officer and I
24 signed it.
25 Q. And that was on the 8th of April?
1 A. 1992.
2 Q. 1992.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence should
4 like to present to this witness one document. If the witness could
5 identify it and read it, because the Defence intends to tender it into
6 evidence. If you would bear with me for a moment while I find it. I will
7 continue putting my questions to the witness since I have been snowed
8 under this medical documentation. That is Document D9.
9 I prepared this document in seven copies, actually, but I can't
10 see it now. It was filed right here.
11 With your leave, I will come back to -- here, here, it is. I
12 apologise for the delay.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, first of all, I hear that your next
14 number is D8 instead of D9. It has been pre-numbered D9. And I also
15 understand that the interpreters' booth has not got a copy before this.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence
17 apologises. In the course of the break, I had decided to introduce the
18 document, so I haven't got sufficient copies.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So by the end of the break, you could have given
20 copies immediately to the interpreters' booth. But let's proceed.
21 MR. BLAXILL: The Prosecution hasn't had sight of this document
22 yet either, Your Honour. So I appreciate at least the opportunity to see
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. You haven't got a copy yet. I
25 thought it would be handed out as well.
1 It's a very short document. Mr. Blaxill, would you agree if the
2 witness at least reads this in the original language so that we also can
3 check whether the translation is a reliable translation.
4 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, that's a very good proposal, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You may invite the witness to read the document. If
6 you put it on the ELMO while reading, then the interpreters can see it as
8 Could you zoom in a bit. It's difficult to read at this moment.
10 You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].
12 Q. Mr. Nakas, does this piece of paper that you have in front of you,
13 if I can call it that, contain the date the 8th of April, 1992?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. 698/1, is that the number for the hospital?
16 A. No. It is the protocol number where this document was entered
17 into the administration books.
18 Q. Does it state -- does this document state the following, and I'm
19 going to read it out to you: "I hereby request that my active military
20 service cease as of the date the 8th of April, 1992. The reasons for this
21 cessation of the active military service is emotional in character, the
22 destruction of my native town, and the JNA remains cold-blooded, and the
23 -- cold to this happening," and the signature is Dr. Bakir Nakas.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as the witness has
25 identified the document and confirmed that it is a document signed by him
1 which confirms in answer to my question that he left active military
2 service, the Defence would like to tender this document into evidence
3 under the lettering of D8.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any other documents you are going to tender
5 into evidence? If so, then we do it all at the end. If not, then we
6 might proceed after Mr. Blaxill has given --
7 MR. BLAXILL: It's a brief formal objection. I at this time see
8 no probative value being offered in respect of this document, so I would
9 object to its introduction until such is shown.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please explain the probative
11 value or the relevance of this document.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The relevance of this document,
13 Your Honour, is the following: The witness today, in response to my
14 question of when he left the JNA, said that he left it on the 8th of
15 April, 1992. The Defence would like, with this document, to confirm that
16 the witness signed the document and that he, himself, tabled the request
17 for termination of service and not as the witness said, that he was sent a
18 document to sign saying that termination of service was coming into force.
19 This shows that the witness himself tabled this request for
20 cessation and termination of service, and we shall probably be using this
21 document to indicate the credibility of the witness.
22 MR. BLAXILL: As I understand it, in the examination-in-chief, he
23 said that he terminated the service with the JNA. As regards being "sent
24 a document" he said in order to effect this, he was given a document that
25 he signed for that purpose. But as I recall the evidence he has given in
1 chief, that he stated he left the JNA of his own accord. So I don't see
2 there's any conflict as to his credibility on that issue.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber will later on decide on the probative
5 value of the document, but it can be admitted at this moment. At least it
6 corroborates the statement of the witness that he left on the 8th of April
7 the JNA. You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
8 I think it still has to be admitted formally in evidence.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number D8.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I have just one practical question. Does the
11 translation get a separate number, D8/1, or they are both under D8?
12 THE REGISTRAR: The original document will be D8. The English
13 translation will be D8.1.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before the cross-examination
16 resumes, the tender of this document raises an issue under Rule 67 of
17 reciprocal disclosure. It being a document which the Prosecution has not
18 seen before, might I respectfully request, Mr. President, that before we
19 adjourn today, there be an allowance of a few minutes so that I could
20 raise again the issue of reciprocal disclosure in terms of the Defence
21 completing its reciprocal disclosure to the Prosecution? Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to discuss that at this moment, looking
23 at the clock, there will be no resumption of cross-examination any more
24 because we would then have two things: First of all, I indicated that I
25 would have all the documents marked for identification mentioned so that
1 it was clear what documents had been marked for identification. And if we
2 need another five minutes for discussing reciprocal disclosure, then I am
3 afraid that we have to stop cross-examination here. But before doing so,
4 I would like to ask Ms. Pilipovic how much time her cross-examination
5 would still take.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we shall follow the
7 suggestions of the Trial Chamber to -- but we do think that this would
8 limit us in comparison to our colleagues. But I will need another 45
9 minutes. We consider we have been placed in an unequal position. Thank
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I'll look in the transcript whether this
12 45 minutes would be more than the examination-in-chief. But one thing is
13 for clear, that cross-examination cannot be concluded today. So for that
14 reason, I would just confer with my colleagues.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We are not in a position -- and perhaps I direct
17 myself now immediately to the witness.
18 We are not -- it will not be possible today, Dr. Nakas, to
19 conclude the cross-examination which I really would have liked to do, also
20 because it's -- for you, it takes a lot of time returning home and coming
21 back. But unfortunately, we're not able to finish it now. Therefore, I
22 want to thank you at this moment already for having come to us and having
23 answered the questions that have been put to you until now.
24 I think you'll hear from the party who has called you and from the
25 victim and witness unit how we will resume. I think it will be on the 9th
1 of January, but you'll hear about that more in detail. We still have to
2 discuss a few items with the parties, so I would invite you to follow
3 Mr. Usher in leaving this courtroom.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should like to thank you, too,
5 Your Honours.
6 [Witness stands down]
7 JUDGE ORIE: So, then, I would like first if you agree to see
8 whether we can agree -- well, it's not a matter of agreement, as a matter
9 of fact. I'll mention to you all those documents that we have listed now
10 and that this Chamber intends to mark for identification. I'll just read
11 them for you. It goes from MFI 1 up to MFI 10.
12 Madam Registrar, have the parties a copy of this document not yet?
13 I'll just read it very slowly, and if there's any problem, please let me
14 know immediately.
15 MFI 1.1, with the date, and for all the other dates for
16 identification, is -- it's used during the opening statement. It's a map
17 of Sarajevo sniping and shelling incidents.
18 MFI 2, also used during opening statement, would be a photograph
19 of Sarajevo indicating Lukavica barracks, orthodox church, shelling
20 incident 1, sniping incident 6.
21 The third would be MFI 3, used during opening statement,
22 photograph of Sarajevo indicating Grbavica, assembly building, Makala
23 market, Spikasja Stenje [phoen], also called sharp stone.
24 The fourth would be - and you will get copies, of course, of this
25 list - MFI 4, introduced during the opening statement of the Prosecution,
1 map of sniping incident.
2 Number 6: MFI 5, also used during opening statement, would be
3 enlarged photograph of the Brnje Reva [phoen].
4 MFI 6, black and white Sarajevo Romanija Corps, VRS organisational
6 MFI 7, enlarged colour Sarajevo Romanija Corps, VRS organisational
8 MFI 8 would be videotape containing various clips.
9 MI 9, colour map of Sarajevo. And that's not used during the
10 opening statement but during the examination of Mustafa Kovac.
11 MFI 10 would then, finally, be a videoclip taken from MFI 8
12 concerning the French state hospital which has been used during the
13 examination of Dr. Milan Mandilovic.
14 That's the list I've got until now. I would -- unless there's any
15 objection, I would also mark them for identification. And I will give the
16 opportunity - because this list is new to you as well - it will be
17 provided to you. And if there's any reason to come back to it, we will be
18 glad to hear in January.
19 Mr. Ierace.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to the titles of those
21 items marked for identification, 6 and 7 refers to broadly the charts of
22 the VRS. It would be more accurately to describe them as charts of the
23 SRK rather than the VRS.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before finally marking them for identification, I
25 suggest that, since I do not hear any objection from the Defence, that it
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 will be SRK organisational chart both for MFI 6 and MFI 7.
2 Any other comment to make on this list?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Once again, we don't have the
4 document here, Mr. President. So all we can do is accept your decision,
5 the wisdom of your decision.
6 JUDGE ORIE: As I indicated, you have an opportunity if later on
7 -- that's the reason why I did read it slowly instead of speedily.
8 Then these documents, MFI 1 up until MFI 10 are marked for identification.
9 There was one other occasion, and I know that we have to leave
10 this courtroom very soon. The last issue we still have to discuss, Mr.
12 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. During the course of
13 the last six days, the Defence has sought to tender a number of documents.
14 This is a reciprocal disclosure trial. Under Rule 67, the Defence is
15 obliged to make available to the Prosecution a number of items including
16 those items which it intends to use as evidence at the trial. At the
17 status conference, during the status conference last week, I informed the
18 Trial Chamber that the Defence has informed me that it has not completed
19 reciprocal disclosure to the Prosecution. And at the time I expressed a
20 degree of understanding at their plight because it's fair to say that both
21 sides have had difficulties in meeting its respective disclosure
23 However, the first that the Prosecution has seen of the items
24 which the Defence has sought to tender during the week and today has been
25 during the evidence itself. Mr. President, there are two issues which
1 arise briefly. Firstly, I'd appreciate it if we could have copies of what
2 they intend to tender before the witness is called, in other words, they
3 be subject to the same requirements which were imposed upon us. And
4 secondly, as to the nature of the document we saw today, it would seem to
5 have come from a file, a military file, of the successor of the JNA which
6 in the Prosecution case was the SRK. Indeed, thousands of documents which
7 the Defence has so far made available to us would seem to have come from
8 the SRK archive. I am most anxious that the Defence completes its
9 obligation of making available to us that material, the SRK archive
11 I can inform you, Mr. President, that as you would expect, the
12 Prosecution has taken steps to obtain that material through the relevant
13 authorities, and we have been informed that the archive does not exist any
14 more. I wish to inform the Trial Chamber that in view of what we have
15 received from the Defence, including the document today, it seems
16 appropriate to me that we should seek to take further steps in relation to
17 clarifying just whether the archive does exist. I anticipate that there
18 will be a motion filed in due course. But in the meantime, I would be
19 grateful if the Defence could be obliged by you, Mr. President, to inform
20 by the Prosecution, say by correspondence, within seven days it will
21 complete its responsibilities of reciprocal disclosure. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I'll give you one minute to respond
23 because this courtroom has to be used in ten minutes in other case.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. I shall
25 try and be brief. After having been engaged in this case, the Defence
1 invested considerable effort in gathering relevant documents for the
2 Defence of General Galic. On several occasions, I told my colleagues at
3 meetings and I explained that my investigators on my team were finding and
4 unclosing documents all over the territory of the present
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republika Srpska, in view of the fact that the
6 archive of the Sarajevo Romanija corps was disbanded and that archives do
7 not exist. In specific terms, the document which the Defence sent to my
8 learned colleagues is a document which does not belong to the archive of
9 the Sarajevo Romanija corps, but is linked to personal documents which
10 existed in the SSNO. It is an organisation which takes care of the
11 personal problems of the former soldiers of the JNA. The SSNO, federal
12 secretariat for national Defence, that is.
13 I shall do my best to engage my team and to have them inform my
14 learned colleagues and the Trial Chamber within the space of a month, I
15 hope, when the Defence will be in a position to disclose all the documents
16 which the investigators, if they are able to collect, send me as the lead
17 counsel. I will then send them on to my learned colleagues as I have done
18 thus far.
19 That's what I can say at this point.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Since the source of this document has at least by now
21 been indicated by the Defence, I expect that you use the time -- of
22 course, I can't say anything. This Chamber can't say anything about any
23 other archives, whether they do exist or not. But I again urge
24 parties to sit together and to see how they can inform each other properly
25 so that we can proceed with this trial. Because I am not a bit worried,
1 but I am very much worried about the exchange of documents until now. So
2 I urge the parties to organise this better. And you have approximately
3 four weeks to work on it but take a few days off as well.
4 I am just looking to my colleagues.
5 Then we will adjourn the case until the 9th of January. I have
6 not received yet my schedule, so I don't know whether -- Madam Registrar
7 is correcting me.
8 It is for sure that we will resume on the 9th, but at what hour
9 depends on the court calendar which will be published, as far as I
10 understand, somewhere in the middle of next week. I will check that both
11 parties will get a copy of it of course, and we will resume at the time
12 indicated on the court calendar for this case, on the 9th of January.
13 I wish you a pleasant holiday, if you go home. And that's all I
14 have to say at this moment.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day of
17 January, 2002.