1 Thursday, 10 January, 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, everyone. Before giving the
10 opportunity to the Defence to continue the examination-in-chief of the
11 witness, I'd like to make sure that everyone understands quite well by now
12 what the speed of speech, since the interpretation had some difficulties
13 yesterday, and apart from that, I would like to indicate to the
14 Prosecution that if it comes to testimony on more specific places within
15 the town of Sarajevo, it might be of great help for the understanding of
16 the Chamber, sometimes they have the, in one way or the other, a map or
17 something available so that we can better follow the testimony.
18 Mr. Blaxill, you may proceed.
19 I see that Mr. Piletta-Zanin is standing up. Is there any remark
20 you'd like to make, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Yes, quite, Mr. President. First of all, I
22 think I've read in the English transcript for the -- that you said
23 Defence. I thought you meant the Prosecution. That's just a minor
24 comment. The Defence, on the other hand, has two points that we would
25 like to raise. First of all, the way in which the hearings are organised,
1 and I don't know whether you would like this to be done in the presence of
2 the witness or not. It is up to you to organise this. Because you said
3 there was a problem in the way in which the hearings were going or
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think I said we had a problem as far as the
6 translation was concerned and speed of speech, but I do not know whether
7 this is what you refer to or anything else.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. The problems that the
9 Defence would like to raise at this point are organisational problems for
10 the future with reference to all the witnesses.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think it's a good idea to discusses this at
12 this moment, so I would first like to continue with the examination of
13 Mr. Ashton, and then see whether we can be -- then take a few minutes for
14 you to explain what kind of organisational problems the Defence has and
15 then decide on whether this should be dealt with in closed session or that
16 it could be done in open session. I would suggest to you that we take the
17 last ten minutes of this morning for you to explain what these problems
18 are and not to wait too long to hear it.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll be glad to.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Blaxill, you may proceed.
21 MR. BLAXILL: Mr. President, Your Honours --
22 JUDGE ORIE: And I indicate already at this moment, because I'm
23 keeping a close eye on the clock, that yesterday the examination-in-chief
24 took two hours and 20 minutes. This is both for your planning and for the
25 Defence planning.
1 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. In the issue of planning, Your Honours, I was
2 wondering what time do you anticipate taking a break, the first break of
3 the morning so that I can perhaps try to pace the work accordingly?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Since we have a morning and an afternoon session,
5 it's intended to have a break at 11.00 for half an hour and then continue
6 the morning session without any other break and then have a lunch break.
7 Thank you.
8 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President
9 WITNESS: JOHN ASHTON [Resumed]
10 Examined by Mr. Blaxill: [Continued]
11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ashton. I trust you've rested well.
12 A. Fairly well.
13 Q. You did hear His Honour make reference to the speed at which we
14 speak, and I think that's a good word of caution to both of us, because
15 we're dealing in our own native language and that can cause problems to
16 those interpreting.
17 Mr. Ashton, we ended yesterday with my asking you certain
18 questions based on your experiences of different types of projectile,
19 mortar shells and artillery. I have but one further question there, and
20 that is: Were there any particular distinctive sounds or other features
21 that would help one identify fire from a tank as opposed to any other kind
22 of gun?
23 A. Yes. There were distinctive sounds. First of all visual contact
24 with the tank and watching it fire you could quickly determine how the
25 sound of the shell would come forth. The same with artillery. You could
1 hear an artillery piece fire and the shell would come forth in a matter of
2 seconds and you would hear whistling sound that would be followed by the
3 impact, of course. The way the shell would come in and hit something, it
4 would come in at an angle whereas a mortar round would come straight down
5 and leave a star pattern in the street or in a building.
6 Q. Thank you. Was there any difference in sound of the actual shell
7 from a tank as opposed to an artillery piece?
8 A. Yes, because tanks were generally fired at close range at objects
9 that I saw in Bosnia in this particular conflict, so the rounds were very
10 rapid from the time of propulsion of the shell out of the barrel to the
11 point of impact was only a matter of seconds. So you didn't hear much of
12 a --
13 Q. Could you slow down just a little, please, Mr. Ashton.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. You didn't hear much of a sound of the shell moving forward,
17 propelling forward until impact. Quite the contrary to artillery.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Ashton, I'd like to move to another topic.
19 During the period, let me say, of the winter of 1992 and into the spring
20 of 1993, did you see any incidents of the defensive forces firing out of
21 the city?
22 A. Only on one occasion I did see the BiH set up a mortar on a
23 position in Sarajevo and fire out three consecutive rounds, and they
24 folded the mortar up and left the position.
25 Q. Now, sir, can you say firstly: How did you know that the people
1 that you saw were ABiH?
2 A. Readily identifiable and they were right in the centre of the
4 Q. How were they identifiable?
5 A. They had uniforms on and one of them I recognised.
6 Q. As for the location, where was it that they set up the mortar?
7 A. Directly behind the, at that time, the State Hospital.
8 Q. And do you recall when that occurred?
9 A. I believe sometime around October of 1992. I'm that not
10 positive. I can't remember that date very well, but it was in 1992, I
12 Q. Do you --
13 A. While I was staying in the hospital, so it was the latter part of
14 1992 or early part of 1993.
15 Q. Were you able to identify the type or calibre of the mortar they
17 A. Yes. It was an 82-millimetre mortar.
18 Q. And when they left, you say they then left that scene; is that
20 A. That is correct. They packed it up and carried it off by hand.
21 Q. Do you recall if that action of firing those rounds drew any fire
22 from other sources onto that spot?
23 A. Negative. There was no return fire immediately. Later in the day
24 there was the normal sporadic shelling of the city but not in that area
25 where that incident occurred.
1 Q. If you say that is the one incident that you saw, did you discover
2 in any other way whether there was any other such fire from the city? In
3 other words, did you hear anything as opposed to see it?
4 A. Yes, on one other occasion.
5 Q. When was that occasion?
6 A. That was also in October of 1992.
7 Q. Do you recall where you heard that noise?
8 A. Yes, very clearly. I was in the PTT, in UNHCR's office, and I
9 heard a very loud bang of a mortar shell being fired out, and the sound is
10 very distinctive of an outgoing mortar when you're right underneath it.
11 And I learned from the French officers in the PTT, in UNPROFOR, that the
12 BiH had set a mortar up about 70 metres outside of the UNPROFOR
13 headquarters, next to the Egyptian battalion headquarters.
14 Q. Did you have any other experiences of hearing or seeing outgoing
15 fire from the city --
16 A. Negative.
17 Q. -- during that period?
18 A. Negative.
19 Q. You have indicated that you travelled around the city quite a
20 lot. Did you see any other kinds of weapons, tanks, mortars, artillery of
21 the ABiH while you were travelling around Sarajevo at that time?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Can you describe what you saw and where, please?
24 A. The ABiH had two tanks that I knew of. One was parked in the
25 tunnel at Ciglane, which I was told could fire a weapon but they didn't
1 have ammunition for it. The other was a tank which I had seen down near
2 the PTT. Then there was an armoured personnel carrier with a heavy
3 machine-gun on it.
4 Q. When did you see these particular pieces of ordnance?
5 A. Throughout the conflict they were there. There was another tank
6 which was disabled in an action along the airport road.
7 Q. And did you at any time see these, for want of a better word,
8 vehicles engaged in any combat operation?
9 A. Never.
10 MR. BLAXILL: Excuse me a moment.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MR. BLAXILL: Noting your earlier comment, Mr. President, while I
13 was proposing to introduce a map, and there are elements on that map which
14 form part of the testimony, I would be quite happy to introduce it now and
15 I think it might be of additional assistance to Your Honours at this
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please.
18 MR. BLAXILL: It has been served.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Chairman, this map is
21 precisely one of the problems that we would have liked to look into this
22 morning. The Defence disputes the possibility of including this map in
23 the discussions today since it could have been done earlier. If they wish
24 to do so later, they can do so later, but it will have to go into the
25 minutes that at the present moment, the Defence does not wish to accept
1 this map and the enclosed documents. Thank you.
2 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I think we could answer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Blaxill. I still do not know
4 exactly what are the objections against the map. As far as I understand,
5 the map is only meant to give as a better idea about locations and not on
6 any specific -- if there's any specific, you say, this building is not --
7 or there's no building on that spot, of course we can discuss it, but it's
8 just to have a better geographical idea of what the witness is talking
9 about. So I don't know what exactly your problems are with the map
10 proposed by the Prosecution, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I give you just one
12 element of possible answer, Mr. President?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, last night, quite late,
15 by the way, I poured over this map and I found out that there are
16 handwritten annotations here, as well as a signature of the witness. The
17 handwritten annotations refer to a certain number of types of weapons,
18 which at the time, at the relevant time, would have been covered by
19 certain definitions such as M57, M75, and so on. These elements of
20 information are the points that we should have been able to discuss with
21 General Galic. Let me remind you that your Tribunal has asked for all
22 documentation to be communicated at least seven days prior to the hearing,
23 and we only received all this last night at 1800 hours. As a consequence,
24 we do have data on this map that we are unable to look into today.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving an opportunity to Mr. Blaxill to
1 respond, would it be a solution if we use one of the maps that has been
2 used before, put it on the ELMO. It has been marked, I think, already for
3 identification. That's the coloured map without any annotations, and so
4 that we can put it on the ELMO and see whether the witness can find out
5 exactly what spot he means when -- would that be agreeable?
6 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. In fact, Your Honours, we were going to
7 suggest that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well --
9 MR. BLAXILL: For these purposes, why don't we use a map that is
10 not so contentious. The present map I would correct my learned friend, it
11 was the translation of the annotations that was given to him yesterday,
12 and we can use this later at the appropriate point in the witness's
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let's take a map which is as neutral as possible for
15 this moment.
16 MR. BLAXILL: If we may, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You agree?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the
19 Court for intervening in this way. This would have been one of the
20 suggestions from the Defence, that for all witnesses that need to use the
21 map, we should always use the same sort of neutral map so that we can make
22 progress in a neutral fashion and not deviate from it in any way.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and I see --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Quite agree.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- nodding yes, and that's your answer as well.
1 Okay, then You may proceed, Mr. Blaxill, in the way we just
3 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I'm just wondering whether the small
4 coloured map would be suitable, but --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Any other neutral map which is helpful.
6 MR. BLAXILL: And I think the large black and white.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, the large black and white.
8 MR. BLAXILL: I'm not sure of the number off the cuff. Would you
9 indulge me for just a moment, please, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We can sort it out later. We have the neutral black
11 and white, and it's the first one, without any markings on it.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, P3644 available here, map of
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Blaxill.
15 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you. Well, if that may be placed on the --
16 given to the witness, we'll have to try and manoeuvre it on the ELMO for
17 any marking if he's going to mark a copy.
18 I would just like to clarify that that is a copy that the witness
19 could mark on? We're not using the original, neutral map. Obviously I
20 don't want him to do that.
21 We have an additional copy, so rather than ...
22 JUDGE ORIE: You want the witness to mark on the map or ...
23 MR. BLAXILL: I was thinking principally, if it would assist Your
24 Honours if we go through a number of locations, he could just mark them so
25 we would know or you would know for future reference.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course I leave it up to you, but for us the
2 most important thing is that we understand the testimony and I want to
3 avoid that we have 150 maps at the end with markings of every single
4 witness, because that would not be very practical.
5 MR. BLAXILL: If Your Honours are content simply for him to point
6 to places on the map, then I'm quite content to proceed that way.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber, I must apologise, prefers markings on
9 the map. And we have the procedure your colour is, I think, red.
10 MR. BLAXILL: I recall we were red.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You're using red and if the Defence wants any
12 additional markings before the map will be tendered into evidence in
13 black, or was it in blue? I have to look at that. Yes. So we now have a
14 copy in front of us which is identical to the neutral black and white map,
15 and the original is now returned to the Registry. Is that the original
16 that has been marked for identification? Yes. Okay.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Blaxill.
18 MR. BLAXILL:
19 Q. Mr. Ashton, may I just run through certain places that you have
20 been referring to in your testimony. If you could look at the map and
21 then just indicate. And what I suggest we do, if that suits Their
22 Honours, is we'll just go through numerically 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and that will
23 then be easily cross-referenced to the transcript.
24 Firstly, you stated that you stayed in the State Hospital. Can
25 you give an indication on the map where State Hospital is in Sarajevo?
1 A. This map is of rather poor quality here.
2 Q. Just put a little circle with a "1" in it, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid any misunderstanding, as far as I
4 see, the top of the map on the ELMO is not the top of the map as it is on
5 paper. Could you please try to turn the map in such a way that the top of
6 the map is also on the top of the ELMO. Otherwise I lose orientation. I
7 think that's ...
8 THE WITNESS: How is that? Can you see that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can follow. You're almost in the centre part
10 of the map. Okay. Please proceed.
11 MR. BLAXILL:
12 Q. Yes, Mr. Ashton. Would you please first mark State Hospital with
13 the number "1."
14 A. Right here in Kovaci.
15 Q. Would you indicate where the Holiday Inn is located that you
16 referred to?
17 A. I've marked that too.
18 Q. Could you mark in relation to that where you say you saw the
19 elderly lady and the young woman, the elderly lady who was shot. If you
20 can perhaps put an "A" near that?
21 A. Directly behind the Holiday Inn, directly behind number 2.
22 Q. So could we call that "2A." Number 3, if you would, please, could
23 you indicate where the Presidency building was.
24 A. Right in this area here. This map is a little bit difficult,
25 because of the grey shades are -- there's a blur here on this map. I
1 don't know if it's on the other copies or not, but it's right in this area
3 Q. If you could just mark that number 3, please. That's fine. Could
4 you mark with the number "4" the location of the PTT building you referred
6 A. Number 4.
7 Q. Could you mark with the number "5" the approximate location of
8 where you say you saw the mortar being fired by ABiH troops.
9 A. That position is exactly number 2, behind number 2, so that would
10 be --
11 Q. Thank you. So that will also be position 2?
12 A. Wait a minute. 2 is the Holiday Inn. Correction. Number 1, the
13 State Hospital.
14 Q. Number 1?
15 A. Number 1 is the position where the mortar was in the back of the
16 hospital on the north side.
17 Q. Thank you. Could you indicate, please, the location you referred
18 to as Ciglane, and in particular, the tunnel. If you will mark that one,
19 please, number "5."
20 Just hold a second. We --
21 A. All right. Number 5 is marked.
22 Q. Thank you. Could you indicate the location of the incident you
23 recounted when you had the man who was wounded and spoke to you in the
24 street. You will recall from yesterday.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Would you mark that number "6."
2 A. I believe it's right in this intersection here, 6 here, just about
3 to the east of the word "Novo Grad" on the map.
4 Q. And you also yesterday made reference to a specific incident and
5 container barricades that were there. Can you indicate where those
6 barricades were? I think this is near the Energoinvest?
7 A. Correct. They are directly across that intersection. From east
8 to west the containers were laid out.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you at this stage indicate any other particular
10 intersection or place that you recall there being these sniper barricades?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And we'll just mark onwards, if you would, 7, 8, 9, that sort of
14 A. Just down the street from that is number 7, where the bend in the
15 street is. At the base of Alipasino Polje, by the Presidency, number 8,
16 on Marsala Tita. And across from the Holiday Inn at each of the
17 intersections between the museum and the university, 9, 10. Here would be
19 Q. And when do you recall those barricades being in place? Were they
20 there throughout your stay in Sarajevo?
21 A. They were put in place while I was in Germany being treated. I
22 came back in September and some of the barricades were there and later on
23 more were put in position.
24 Q. Now, in relation to that map, could you also indicate the area of
25 the Jewish cemetery that you've referred to?
1 A. Should I continue with 12?
2 Q. Yes, please. And can you just indicate perhaps at this stage
3 broadly with your finger the area you've referred to as Grbavica? And
4 perhaps you can kind of draw just a general circle and we'll put a "G" in
6 A. Should I outline Grbavica, the front line area that I was familiar
8 Q. I was going to ask you that next. So firstly, if you'd just
9 indicate what is the area roughly of Grbavica?
10 A. Right here there's a big "G."
11 Q. And as you recall, let us say the early part of 1993, could you
12 mark in any areas that you recall having seen as front lines between the
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Perhaps you could just put a little series of "Xs" to indicate
16 the lines you observed.
17 A. This is approximate on this side, because I had never been to that
18 particular front line on the right, on the east side of Grbavica.
19 Q. And you have also made reference in your testimony to a place
20 called Vrace, I think it is, or Vrace. Could you indicate, please, where
21 that is, and we'll make that, I think -- are we up to number 13, I think?
22 A. Vrace is up here on the hill above Grbavica.
23 Q. And perhaps we can just annotate number, whichever it is now, 14,
24 I think. Could you state -- or indicate, I'm sorry, where the memorial
25 building is you've referred to, the Partizan memorial?
1 A. I believe that's where I've just put the "14." There's a little
2 park there and a monument.
3 Q. Very well. Thank you. And you've made reference to having seen a
4 tank belonging to the VRS in that area that came forward and fired. Can
5 you indicate the spot, roughly, where you saw that tank?
6 A. Same position, number 14, next to the monument. There was a flat
7 area there. The tank would roll out onto that area, aim into the city,
9 Q. Could you just put a little "T" next to the 14 that would indicate
11 A. Then it would roll back behind a tree line, a low tree line that
12 was there.
13 Q. Could you also indicate where you witnessed -- you referred to any
14 of the armoured vehicles of the ABiH, near the PTT and elsewhere. Can you
15 indicate where you saw those?
16 A. Of the Bosnian army; correct, ABiH.
17 Q. Of the Bosnian army.
18 A. At the television centre. I'll mark this "15."
19 Q. And what was that? That was a tank or an APC?
20 A. That was an APC. It was painted blue as a police vehicle. It was
21 not painted green as an army vehicle.
22 Q. You've made reference to one or two other positions, in particular
23 one on the lower side of Trebevic Mountain, near the cable car. On that
24 map are you able to give an indication as to where that was?
25 A. The only thing I saw there was a Serb tank and Serb artillery,
1 Serb light artillery. Is that what you're indicating?
2 Q. Yes, that's the site. If you would, please.
3 A. I'm going to mark "16" where I saw a tank. It was in this area
4 here. It's hard for me to identify on this map. Again, I make -- this is
5 not clear for me to see here.
6 Q. If you feel that it would be in any way inaccurate or misleading,
7 Mr. Ashton, please don't mark that map at this time. I will present
8 another one to you shortly?
9 A. I'd prefer to have the larger map so I can see more clearly
10 these ...
11 Q. That's fine. Thank you very much. I wonder, a little
12 unconventional perhaps, but do Your Honours at this stage have any other
13 place you recall being mentioned by the witness that you would like
14 marked, we could get it dealt with straight away?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Blaxill. I would like to have marked the
16 place where the incident in which the witness was shot on his leg be
18 THE WITNESS: That may not be on this map, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If it's on the map, you can't mark it.
20 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, it is. Excuse me, but my memory of that
21 particular incident after it happened sort of was fuzzy. It's in this
22 general area I'm about to mark. It's in one of the streets in this
23 particular area that I'm about to mark right now. Should I put a mark
25 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. I believe it is number 17.
1 A. Very close to that rail line, because that's where the snipers
2 were sitting, on top of that rail line. Actually, there's a little bend.
3 I don't know if you can see it on your map - right here next to the
4 underpass. That's where it happened, on that bend. So I'm going to take
5 an arrow from the 17 right to that point.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ashton. I think that concludes for the moment any
7 marking of that particular map.
8 Mr. Ashton, you've already told the Court that in March of 1993
9 you set up your medical relief agency by the acronym EMRA; is that
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Now, sir, did your work in that non-governmental organisation,
13 EMRA, cause you to travel more widely than just the city of Sarajevo?
14 A. Yes. If I can give a brief explanation. I was approached by a
15 UNHCR staff member who had done assessment on the Serb side, and she
16 reported to me that the Serbs had critical needs and medicines, and I
17 agreed to go over. The only other organisations working on the Serb
18 side. Can I have the transcript here?
19 Okay. Thank you.
20 The only other agencies working on the Serb side were the
21 International Committee for the Red Cross and Medecins Sans Frontieres.
22 So I went to the Serb side with UNHCR to visit Lukavica barracks, to make
23 my introduction.
24 Q. Now, sir, firstly: When you refer to the Serb side and Lukavica
25 barracks, who or what was at Lukavica barracks?
1 A. At that time there was Major Brane and Major Indic.
2 Q. And who were these -- what was the role of these people?
3 A. Both, to my knowledge, as I was introduced to them, were the UN
4 liaison for the United Nations and to the UNPROFOR for the Republika
6 Q. And were these people, to your knowledge and observation, serving
7 military people or ...
8 A. It was very difficult for me to understand Major Indic's position,
9 because I was first introduced to him as Zlatko Mladic's right-hand man
10 for the region, and he had told me that he was his aid and he was with him
11 on most -- in his first introduction he told me a little bit about
13 Q. Did you after that have more dealings with this man and establish
14 his identity more accurately?
15 A. Yes. In fact, we built a rapport, almost a friendship, and I went
16 on several occasions, two or three times a week.
17 Q. So did you perceive whether he was a serving soldier or had some
18 other role?
19 A. Indeed, he was a serving soldier.
20 Q. Did he -- what sort of clothing did he wear when he was having
21 meetings with yourself?
22 A. He usually wore a plain green uniform, sometimes he had a
23 Republika Srpska logo, but generally he was always in a plain green
24 uniform, very neatly pressed.
25 Q. Were you able to ascertain within the overall army in which he
1 served what division or corps or other formation he was actually serving
3 A. He had a small Romanija Corps flag in his office, and he had, of
4 course, the Republika Srpska flag in there in the office as well.
5 Q. Did you establish in conversation with him or through other direct
6 means whether he was indeed Sarajevo-Romanija Corps as an officer?
7 A. We never discussed that particular issue, no.
8 Q. As regards -- you said he had his office in Lukavica barracks.
9 Were you aware of who else, if anyone, had offices in the same -- say, the
10 same building as him?
11 A. Yes. I knew that Major Brane, when he had been transferred out of
12 the PTT building in Sarajevo, after the incident in which the -- I think
13 it was the Bosnian vice-president or vice-premier was shot in the APC
14 coming from the airport. He was moved out of the PTT and over to
15 Lukavica. So he was in that office.
16 Q. And did you establish whether there were any other officers in
17 that building and to what corps or division they belonged?
18 A. I saw other officers, and I knew there was a barracks there.
19 There were things explained to me in conversation, in general
20 conversation, but not in specific detail, because I didn't ask specific
21 questions, that indicated that it was a military headquarters because
22 there was constant flow of heavy equipment coming in the gate, large
23 lorries, military hardware, tanks, artillery pieces.
24 Q. Were you able to as ascertain whose headquarters Lukavica barracks
1 A. Republika Srpska.
2 Q. And saying that, army of Republika Srpska, can you state whether
3 there was any division or corps that had its headquarters at that
4 location, specific ones?
5 A. Only from the markings on the vehicles and only from the markings
6 of some of the people that were there, I assumed it was Romanija Corps.
7 Q. Were you aware of the location of the commander of that corps at
8 the beginning of 1993, say?
9 A. No. I never knew where his office was. I encountered him early
10 in 1993, when he was leaving Indic's office.
11 Q. You say you encountered him. Who are you talking about, whom you
13 A. General Galic.
14 Q. And you've referred to General Galic. How were you aware that
15 General Galic was the commander of that corps?
16 A. I was introduced by Major Indic.
17 Q. Fine. Thank you. Did you exchange any conversation with General
19 A. No. We didn't have any conversation. Indic spoke to him in Serb,
20 and he said to me that -- he explained that I was just there on a
21 humanitarian mission and there was no -- we didn't have any interaction.
22 Q. Could you just look to the screen, Mr. Ashton, and slow down a
23 little. I think we're causing a little stress here.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Did you encounter General Galic on any other occasions? Sorry.
1 Do you recall when precisely this encounter with General Galic took place?
2 A. This was early 1993. I don't remember the date.
3 Q. Did you encounter General Galic on any other occasions?
4 A. Yes. I saw him there at Lukavica on two other occasions when I
5 came in early in the morning once, I remember. Also once at a factory up
6 in Pale, were there were several military people. He was there. But I
7 didn't -- I wasn't in proximity to speak to him. I went to see the
8 Minister of Health at the time, and Dr. Starevic.
9 Q. So in order to -- sorry. In order to pursue the aims of your
10 organisation, you had dealings with, you said, Major Indic. Was that your
11 main contact person?
12 A. Yes. He was the person I was told I had to go through to do
13 anything. If I travelled on the Serb side, I always notified him. If I
14 planned to leave the city of Sarajevo through Serb territory, I would
15 notify him and he would grant permission at the checkpoints for me to pass
17 Q. So as a result, were your meetings with him more or less frequent?
18 A. More frequent.
19 Q. Could you give an indication on average how often?
20 A. Generally two to three times a week when I was in the area of
21 Sarajevo. There were periods when I was working in other areas of Bosnia
22 that I would only see him once, maybe twice a month, or when I was in
23 Germany, of course, I was out of the area.
24 Q. You say you developed a rapport with Major Indic. Did you ever
25 discuss matters pertaining to the conflict and the actions in and around
1 Sarajevo with him?
2 A. Yes. On a few occasions I tried to be very careful because I
3 didn't want to make him think that I was doing any kind of intelligence
4 work or doing something that was out of the ordinary, because I was there
5 strictly on a humanitarian mission. But I asked him a few questions about
6 certain events, and when I saw some events which I didn't comment to him
7 about, but -- that were of interest to me, that indicated his authority.
8 Q. Did you ever mention to him the fact that there were apparently a
9 number of Serb people still within Sarajevo? And what was his response
10 regarding that, if any?
11 A. Actually, we had a discussion about Serbs on more than one
12 occasion, living in Sarajevo, who didn't get out, and Indic had sort of a
13 dual opinion of that. The first comments he made to me, the very first
14 comment I remember him making is they had a chance to leave and they chose
15 to stay. He indicated --
16 Q. Sorry. Please carry on.
17 A. He indicated to me at that time that the Serbs were well warned in
18 advance that this was going to happen, but some people chose not to
19 believe it.
20 Q. And what about the opposing force, as it were, or indeed the
21 population, the Muslim population of Sarajevo? Did he make any comment in
22 respect of his or his compatriots' attitude to him?
23 A. He had a certain respect for individuals, especially those who
24 were his teachers in the military, but at the same time he had a very
25 negative attitude about what I call the Bosnians, and he would correct me
1 and call them Muslims and used the term "fanatics."
2 Q. Were you able to ascertain whether his was a purely personal
3 opinion or did it reflect any kind of, let us say, political philosophy
4 that might have been doing the rounds at the time?
5 A. Based on the communications I had with other Serbs in the
6 territory, it was a general opinion. That's not to say that all Serbs
7 felt that way. Many Serbs had indicated to me that they were very angry
8 about this conflict. They did not want any part of it, and they were
9 forced into the situation. But for the most part, the soldiers that I
10 met, they had the same attitude as Indic, that this was a move to create a
11 fundamentalist Muslim state, was their attitude.
12 Q. And from what you've just said, presumably they were against such
13 a thing.
14 A. Absolutely, and there were many Serbs I encountered who actually
15 classified all Muslims as the same. They took no distinction between
16 combatants or non-combatants or anybody's political philosophy.
17 Q. Did you --
18 A. I must state, though --
19 Q. Yes. Can we just watch the speed again, please, Mr. Ashton. I
20 think we're perhaps a little fast.
21 A. I must state, though, that the longer I was in the former
22 Yugoslavia, in Bosnia, Croatia theatre, I discovered that many people had
23 that attitude on all sides, and it grew among the Bosnians as the war
25 Q. Did you early on or at a certain point in your relationship with
1 Major Indic have any conversation with him about the action involving the
2 city of Sarajevo and maybe what they hoped to achieve by this?
3 A. Yes. He made a comment to me once that he didn't want to destroy
4 the city. He wanted to wear the people down until they would surrender or
5 give up. That's not the exact quote, but that's the exact sentiment of
6 the quote. He also indicated at one point that they could go back to
8 Q. You said just now about "he," you know, could destroy the city.
9 Did he use the expression so personally or did he refer to --
10 A. Yes, he used the expression personally. He said "we,"
11 collectively, meaning I assume the Serb army or the Serb people or
12 whatever the case may be, could destroy the city if we wanted to.
13 Q. And did you ever mention your connection with the State Hospital
14 with him?
15 A. Yes. On several occasions. I basically filled Major Indic in on
16 everything I was doing in Bosnia, including on the Bosnian side, and I
17 told him about the conditions at the State Hospital at one point, about
18 shelling of the State Hospital. He indicated to me that that is our
19 hospital, meaning the former JNA hospital, was the military hospital, and
20 he said we wouldn't destroy what we want to take. That's not the exact
21 quote, but it's similar to that particular comment. But he did make the
22 comment that they wanted to get it back.
23 Q. So how did he respond specifically to the site of the actual
24 damage that you showed him?
25 A. I brought him a picture one day and showed him the destruction,
1 and he said, "What a pity." He said, "We obviously can't use it any
2 more." It was generally in that ...
4 MR. BLAXILL: Pardon me for a moment.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MR. BLAXILL:
7 Q. And did he mention anything about the shelling of that hospital?
8 I mean, he clearly refers to reaction to the damage, but did he mention
9 anything about the continuation of shelling or --
10 A. Yes. He told me -- at one time I said to him that I was in the
11 hospital when it was shelled, and he said, "You shouldn't be there when
12 we're shelling it." And he indicated to me, "I have no way to warn you
13 when we're going to shell the city or what targets we're going to shell."
14 And he said, "I would prefer you move to a safer location."
15 Q. Did he indicate there would be a point at which shelling of the
16 State Hospital would cease?
17 A. Yes, when the Muslims surrendered the city.
18 Q. Do you recall the words, or as accurately as you can recall, the
19 words that he used, to the best of your recollection?
20 A. I'm at a loss for the comment. I know the quote that he used, but
21 I can't think of the exact words at the moment. I actually notated that
22 in one of my journals.
23 Q. At this stage, would it assist you if you were to refer to your
24 journal and check for that to refresh your memory?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honours, I would like the opportunity to refer
2 the journal to Mr. Ashton to assist with his memory. I will ask the
3 appropriate questions about issues as to how contemporaneous and accurate
4 the journal would be for this purpose. I can indicate also that it has
5 been served on my learned friends for the Defence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Any comment on the Defence side?
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN [Interpretation]: Are we talking about the
8 personal journal of Mr. Ashton?
9 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, that is correct, his personal correspondence.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN [Interpretation]: In that case, the Defence
11 would like for that document to be produced in its entirety and not just a
12 part of it, as seems to be the case at the moment. Thank you very much in
14 MR. BLAXILL: Well, certainly I would be proposing to give to
15 Mr. Ashton his documents that formed, as I understand from him, his
16 journal, a mixture of correspondence and personal notes, and indeed in its
17 entirety to him. We do not propose to tender it simply to allow the
18 witness to use it to refresh his memory. That is the sole purpose.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it will not be tendered into
20 evidence, just in order to refresh the memory of the witness.
21 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, Mr. Blaxill, it's not in that
22 particular journal that you have. It was on my computer from Sarajevo. I
23 don't have -- that comment is not in that particular journal that was --
24 I'm sorry.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Would this mean that --
1 THE WITNESS: I have other notes that I took in Bosnia which have
2 not been given to the Tribunal. My comments, though, have.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, does this mean that you are not going to
4 use the journal for the purposes?
5 MR. BLAXILL: No. The point has now become academic, Your
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, thank you very much. You may proceed.
8 MR. BLAXILL:
9 Q. Perhaps at some point if you do recall the words more precisely,
10 Mr. Ashton, we could perhaps return to that point.
11 So at that time, in 1993, where in fact were you living? Did you
12 move from the State Hospital to another location in town?
13 A. Yes. Around April I moved to Ciglane.
14 Q. And throughout 1993 you performed the duties for the relief
15 organisation, the agency EMRA?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Now, sir, do you recall later on in that year, during your
18 meetings with Major Indic, do you recall any occasions when he received
19 communications from UNPROFOR?
20 A. Yes. On several occasions when I was sitting in the office
21 because he would invite me to come for coffee and sit the morning with
22 him. He rarely tried to discuss military information with me, but we
23 would have general conversations. The phone would ring and he would
24 answer and it would be UNPROFOR, and either his assistant who was there,
25 she would answer the phone and hand it to him or he would answer the phone
1 himself, because he had a direct link to the PTT.
2 Q. How did you know that the caller would be from UNPROFOR?
3 A. Because it was on the PTT telephone that their cable that they had
4 put in and he spoke in English to the caller.
5 Q. That leads me to one another question, actually. What about your
6 conversations with Major Indic? Did you use the English language or use
7 an interpreter?
8 A. Oh, yes. Major Indic is quite fluent and eloquent in English,
9 very good.
10 Q. So that was the language you used for your transactions?
11 A. Yes. I had translators with me at all times, but very rarely did
12 I use them.
13 Q. So can you therefore, please, indicate certain of these occasions
14 as to what you were able to glean of the message from all the
15 representation from UNPROFOR and what responses you observed on the part
16 of Major Indic and give us an approximate date, if you can.
17 A. There was one occasion in the early -- late spring/early summer of
18 1993, I believe, when the phone rang -- no. It was earlier than that. It
19 was --
20 Q. A little slower, please.
21 A. More like in the late winter/early spring. General Morillon
22 called and respectively addressed him. There had been a shelling incident
23 in Marin Dvor in which a child had been killed, and the shelling was
24 continuing, and Morillon asked him, apparently, to order his forces to
25 cease fire. Indic said he was sorry to hear about the incident and he
1 would do his best to look into the matter. And he put the phone down and
2 continued his conversation with me.
3 Q. And two questions there. How long did he just continue conversing
4 with you after the telephone call?
5 A. About 30 minutes.
6 Q. And can you please state for the information of the Chamber who
7 was General Morillon?
8 A. He was the UNPROFOR commander at the time.
9 Q. And where was he based?
10 A. In Sarajevo.
11 Q. In the course of your subsequent conversation --
12 A. I'm sorry. Correction. It was General MacKenzie who called at
13 that point. Morillon had had an argument that I had heard earlier. That
14 was a different context.
15 Q. So we're talking about General MacKenzie. Who was General
17 A. General MacKenzie at that time had taken Morillon's place as
18 commander for the UNPROFOR. Morillon was force commander.
19 Q. Can you remember anything of the specific response that Major
20 Indic gave to General Mackenzie?
21 A. Other than he would look into the matter. There was another
22 engagement which I heard, but I don't -- I'm trying to recall the exact
23 comments that were made that day when this particular call we're referring
24 to earlier was made. It carried on for a few moments, and right after
25 that I'd said ten minutes later a call came on another phone in which he
1 spoke Serb. He got into sort of a heated debate with someone, hung that
2 phone up, and continued our conversation.
3 Q. Did you hear Major Indic refer on that or any other occasion to
4 any persons to whom he should refer onwards?
5 A. Yes. He said he would pass it on to higher authorities at one
6 time, one conversation.
7 Q. Did you hear him -- you say one conversation. Have you heard any
8 other conversation, maybe not so direct, but as indicating that there was
9 such a relationship to a higher authority for him to do his duties?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you indicate some other occasions you've heard words from him
12 to that effect?
13 A. There were a couple of incidents in which when I spoke to him he
14 said that he had to -- he had no control over the situation. The
15 situation was in the hand of the higher powers of the Republika Srpska.
16 Q. And did he ever specifically identify the higher powers or just
17 refer generically to a chain of command?
18 A. Generically to a chain of command. I never heard him mention the
19 name of anyone that he was going to contact. But there was an incident in
20 which he got on the phone and my translator was sitting there.
21 Q. Could I ask you -- number one, we've been asked to slow down again
22 a little, Mr. Ashton.
23 A. Sorry.
24 Q. Secondly, can you say when this was?
25 A. Yeah, this was also in mid-1993. Andrej Djordjevic was my
1 translator, a Bosnian Serb who accompanied me to Indic's headquarters.
2 And Indic had gotten on the phone and ordered a ceasefire or for a battery
3 to stop firing while we were in his presence, at which point he asked
4 Biljana, his assistant, to escort us to the reception room at the end of
5 the hallway, and then we continued to hear a very heated argument between
6 him and another commander, according to Andrej, who could hear the
7 conversation through the walls. But I never asked what the conversation
8 was about. It was not my concern.
9 Q. So can you give us a rough idea, during, let's say, the course of
10 1993 - it's quite a long period - of how many times you witnessed these
11 kind of conversations whether Indic received some request to stop a
12 certain course of action?
13 A. I heard at least six calls while I was in that office referring to
14 incidents. I actually saw two visits from officers. One was Morillon,
15 when he came over, and that's what I confused the first incident with.
16 Q. And do you recall when General Morillon --
17 A. That was very early in January, when I first -- was first building
18 my relationship with Indic.
19 Q. January, you say. January 1993?
20 A. January 1993, that's correct.
21 Q. When was the last meeting that you ever had with Indic? I mean,
22 how long did you have this relationship with him, working?
23 A. I think the last time I saw Indic was September of 1995. It was
24 right after the NATO bomb, because I went over to visit him to ask him if
25 he was okay, and he made a comment to the effect, "Call your boys off."
1 Q. You've said that you yourself mentioned some specific incidents to
2 Major Indic when you would meet him. Can you give us an idea of the kind
3 of incidents that you would mention when you did so?
4 A. Of course, I talked to him about the hospital, more specifically.
5 I did refer to other incidents, and I can't recall at the moment what
6 those conversations were.
7 Q. Did you ever make reference to civilian casualties --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- as an issue?
10 A. I did make reference to civilian casualties and he said that they
11 were just in the way, not in those particular words, but he said in the
12 way -- they were where they shouldn't be or they could have prevented
14 Q. I was going to say, can you recall now any specific remarks that
15 you can ascribe to his responses to such issues?
16 A. Oh, yes. At one point he said, "They can surrender. They can
17 give up."
18 Q. When did he make that remark? Do you recall?
19 A. Yes. That was late 1993. I went over there and complained about
20 an incident where a child was killed and he just didn't seem to be
21 concerned about it.
22 Q. When you had that incident regarding the child, can you recall the
23 words used, or as close as you can recall the words used to express ...
24 A. I can't recall if that's the one of the times when he made a
25 derogatory remark about Muslims, but I just can't recall off the top of my
1 head. Again, that's something I have in my personal notes when I kept my
2 personal journals. I did write those comments down.
3 Q. Are we referring to the journal that is -- or the part of the
4 journal that is in the possession of our office or --
5 A. Negative, because these journals -- excuse me. Negative, because
6 these journals were written until early 1993, and then I just kept notes
7 and notebooks. I didn't write full journals about events of the day. I
8 wrote bullet notes about particular comments made to me by people and
9 particular and needs.
10 Q. Can you recall, for instance, I mean, what did you actually say to
11 him when you mentioned about the incident with the child being killed?
12 Can you recall roughly the words you used?
13 A. I can't recall at the moment.
14 Q. What about -- do you recall anything of your tone when you -- your
15 mood when you were giving -- you know, having that conversation?
16 A. Yes. I was quite urgent. I was quite abrupt with him.
17 Q. Did you explain particularly the nature of the incident? What had
18 happened to that child that caused you to raise the issue with Indic?
19 A. I was a witness to the event when the shell landed.
20 Q. When was that that the shell landed?
21 A. That was late 1993, but it was down near the barricades, near the
22 Holiday Inn.
23 Q. And what had been the result of that -- obviously something to do
24 with a child, but what was the actual result of that shell in terms of
1 A. There was one woman wounded, and this child, of course, was
3 Q. Was that -- do you recall the age of the child?
4 A. I believe he was about 7 years old. It was a male, 7, 8 years
6 Q. And you say that was down near the barricades near the Holiday
8 A. Correct. Right in front of the museum.
9 Q. Do you recall what else was in the vicinity of the museum?
10 Specifically, was there anything of a military nature?
11 A. Yes. There were French -- I'm sorry. Translation. There were
12 French and Ukranian forces in the area.
13 Q. Those forces, did they have any vehicles with them?
14 A. They had APCs, and that's the only military hardware they had, but
15 they were stationed three abreast, one at each intersection.
16 Q. And those vehicles, what colour were they?
17 A. White.
18 Q. Did they bear markings?
19 A. UN. Clearly marked UN, in black.
20 Q. Were the soldiers themselves wearing anything distinctive on their
22 A. Yes. They were wearing blue helmets. Some Ukrainians were
23 wearing blue berets at that time. It was actually a quiet time when it
25 Q. Were there any more military people in the area who were not
1 wearing blue helmets or berets?
2 A. No, there were no other military people in the area at the time.
3 Q. Were the other people around in that area at the time in civilian
4 clothing or other forms of dress?
5 A. Yes, there were other people around. Quite a few people were
6 travelling on the street that day by foot.
7 Q. Can you say what the people were wearing?
8 A. Just -- I mean, there were kids with blue jeans and shirts, just
9 normal clothes. There was no -- nothing to indicate any kind of a uniform
10 or anything. Women with dresses. It was --
11 Q. So thinking back now to that incident, can you think again of your
12 meeting with Indic and what may have passed between you by way of the
13 words used?
14 A. Well, I remember -- I don't know if that was that particular
15 incident or it was another incident where he told me that basically -- and
16 I don't -- this is not a direct quote, but he basically said that the
17 Bosnians were worthless and they had no business being there.
18 Q. No business being where?
19 A. In Sarajevo. And of course, he referred to it as "the Muslims."
20 Q. You have also made reference, in fact, to a "derogatory" remark
21 that you recalled regarding Muslims. Can you -- Is it part of this
22 context or --
23 A. Yes, it was part of that context.
24 MR. BLAXILL: Excuse me just one moment, please.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 MR. BLAXILL:
2 Q. Dealing with the nature of your complaint to Indic for this
3 particular occasion, I mean did you make the allegation that it was the
4 forces of the Bosnian Serbs, the SRK, who had fired it?
5 A. I did indeed, and he didn't deny it.
6 Q. Do you recall what he said in that regard?
7 A. He said civilians are not -- his exact comment, I'm trying to
8 think of what it was he made. He made a statement about, "We don't
9 determine where the shells go. The shells don't make their choices," or
10 something of that sort. He was referring to the fact that civilians are a
11 casualty of war. But it was specifically about the word "civilians." He
12 did make it clear that civilians are a casualty of -- the result of this
13 action. That I do remember.
14 Q. That was stated to you on that occasion?
15 A. That occasion and one other occasion, but I can't recall the other
17 Q. Can you give us at least an indication of when that might have
19 A. That was earlier in 1993, back in the March area.
20 Q. You've referred to there being civilian persons and UNPROFOR
21 troops present. Did you mention to Major Indic that there appeared to be
22 no other military hardware or target in that region when that shell
24 A. Yes, I did, and the way I approached him with that question - and
25 I'm very clear now on that - I said, "Why do you allow this to happen when
1 no one's provoking any problem?"
2 Q. And what did you mean by allowing "this to happen"?
3 A. Allowing a civilian centre to be -- a civilian area to be shelled.
4 Because repeatedly at that particular area there were sniping incidents
5 constantly throughout the war. There were periods of a lull, maybe two,
6 three, sometimes even four weeks, nothing would happen there, and then
7 suddenly there would be sniping and it would go on for two or three weeks.
8 Q. Did you mention that particular aspect to Major Indic --
9 A. Not about the lulls and the change -- I'm sorry. Not about the
10 lulls and the changes in the level of fighting, sniping, and shelling. I
11 never really talked about the causes or the reasons.
12 Q. Just one point. I'm mindful that the break is coming up very
13 shortly. There's just one issue I'd like to mention, perhaps a little
14 aside from the immediate context. Was there ever an occasion that you
15 raised with Major Indic something that you had first heard about while you
16 were in Germany, something to do with artillery?
17 A. Yes. Back in --
18 Q. May I interrupt you? Because my learned friend has just taken a
19 look at the clock more accurately than I have. We are very close, and
20 it would run beyond the break.
21 MR. BLAXILL: This would make a more convenient place to
22 break, I think, if that suits Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn until 11.30.
24 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, once the witness has been brought in,
2 you may proceed in examining him.
3 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any reason why the witness is not at hand so
5 that he can be brought to the courtroom?
6 MR. BLAXILL: Not that I'm aware of, Your Honour. He should be in
7 the waiting room.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I know. It's only ten metres, so I'm a bit
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, you may resume your exam.
12 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Mr. Ashton, I raised with you just before the break something to
14 do with something that you discovered or was said to you while you were in
15 Germany, at Rhein-Main air force base. Can you tell us what that was?
16 A. Yes. I had a conversation with the Serb logistics liaison officer
17 who was stationed at the air force base there, and we went out one
18 evening, talked a little bit about the situation. He asked me to help him
19 get to America and get out of the situation he was in, and then, in
20 further conversation, he told me in the beginning he was a combatant but
21 associated with Indic and Brane, good friends. And in that conversation
22 he brought up a subject which was totally out of context with the
23 conversation of the shelling of Sarajevo when I brought up some of the
24 incidents that I had seen. I specifically mentioned one incident in which
25 the area around the PTT was heavily shelled and the shells came down the
1 street and I had a photo sequence of this event, and I showed him the
2 photos that I had with me. And he said, "Oh, yes. This is the iron
4 Q. Did he explain what the iron cross was meant to be?
5 A. Indeed. He explained to me that the iron cross was a form of
6 punishment which was used whenever a Serb was killed on the other side by
7 Bosnian fire or if the Bosnians fired a mortar round, the Serbs would
8 respond with a very heavy, intense shelling in the pattern of what he
9 called the orthodox cross.
10 Q. And did you ever mention that particular term to Major Indic?
11 A. Yes, I did, because I found it kind of an odd expression and an
12 odd way of fighting a war. And when I came back into Republika Srpska and
13 met with Indic in one conversation I asked him outright about this.
14 Q. And when was that conversation?
15 A. It was early 1993, I believe. It could have been late 1992,
16 because I was at the Rhein-Main air force base in late 1992 before this
17 fellow had left. He did leave in early 1993.
18 Q. And so what was the response of Major Indic when you said that to
19 him, and as closely to his words as you can recall?
20 A. He asked me how I knew about this. He was curious to know where I
21 had learned this expression. And then he said yes. He said, "That's a
22 form of punishment."
23 Q. Did he -- or did you, rather, raise that in connection with
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Did Major Indic make any comment as to the use of that technique
2 in the context of Sarajevo?
3 A. Yes, he did. He said that they -- basically what he told me about
4 his gunners was they were at will to hit the city when they wanted to, but
5 in this particular case he didn't make any indication that he authorised
6 such an action, but he was well aware of it.
7 Q. And he referred to his gunners, but which gunners were they?
8 A. The gunners of the Republika Srpska.
9 Q. And of which corps? Did you know?
10 A. He didn't specifically state that. I did meet one of the men in
11 Pale, at a coffee shop, coffee bar there, who indicated to me that he was
12 a gunner, so I brought the subject up with him through my translator. And
13 he laughed and said, "Oh, yes. I'm an expert at this." And then he
14 proceeded to explain to me how he set the gun at a range of .2 degrees and
15 fired upwards once they established the first round, and then the shells
16 would go straight up a line and then they would move the gun and fire five
17 shots at calibrated degrees across the city. He said they would average 8
18 to 10 shots up and 5 across. I was very surprised at how specific he was.
19 Q. Did he make any other comments in relation to that as to the usage
20 of that technique?
21 A. This fellow was particularly vehement towards Muslims. He made
22 other comments, but I'm not -- I don't recall the actual remarks at the
24 Q. And when did you meet the man at Pale, that gunner? Do you
1 A. That was sometime in early 1993.
2 Q. Do you remember --
3 A. Could be in mid-1993, but it was later than the incident when I
4 was talking to Indic. It was after that.
5 Q. And can you just confirm for us what was the elevation of the gun
6 he referred to?
7 A. The elevation --
8 Q. Something about the degrees upwards that he --
9 A. Oh, yes. He said he would raise it .2 degrees.
10 Q. .2?
11 A. And fire one round and when they would mark the round off where
12 they could it was hit when their spotter would report back where it hit,
13 they would just raise the gun degree by degree, whatever it was, and fire
14 8 to 10 rounds and then they would recalibrate and fire right to left or
15 left to right across the city.
16 Q. And I'm just wondering, I hope I'm not repeating myself, but do
17 you recall any specific comment by Major Indic as to the use of that
18 technique in Sarajevo? Do you recall him saying anything about -- further
19 about that?
20 A. Just that this was a form of punishment, but he didn't go into any
21 great details about it. There was another comment, but I just can't
22 recall what that was. He seemed a little bit surprised that I knew about
24 Q. You say he referred to it as a form of punishment. Did you ask
25 him for any circumstances or description as to why they would in fact use
1 that form of "punishment" in their action around Sarajevo?
2 A. No, not in that particular incident. Not in that particular
3 context, in that particular discussion. I had already learned from the
4 gentleman in Rhein-Main that had left Sarajevo, Republika Srpska, what it
5 was about. It was in retaliation for an outgoing shell or a Serb soldier
6 that had been wounded or killed.
7 Q. And did you in fact raise that issue with Indic and invite any
8 comment on that, the things you had learned from the man in Rhein-Main
9 about why it was used? Did you raise it in any way, any further way with
11 A. Not in any further context, not to my knowledge. I can't remember
12 any -- it never came up again after that one time; I know that.
13 Q. Now, during that time, did you have any -- sorry. Of all the
14 incidents of your encounters with Indic that I've asked you about so far,
15 did all of these take place within the period from, say, the end of 1992
16 to the middle August 1994? Are they within that period?
17 A. Yes. I mean, I remember one of the first incidents that I
18 remember with Indic was in, I think, September, just the day I met him or
19 the day after I met him with MacKenzie coming into his office very angry
20 with him and MacKenzie said out loud in front of me, "This has got to
21 stop," and Indic referred to him as he said to him something to the
22 comment that he was going to have to refer to a higher authority. But I
23 found out that Mackenzie was complaining about shelling around the area of
24 the PTT and that was one of the times when the so-called iron cross was
25 being used apparently.
1 Q. And was this -- when you said about shelling around the area of
2 the PTT, was this involving the shelling of civilians?
3 A. Yes, it was.
4 Q. Now, was there ever an -- did you ever get an explanation from
5 Major Indic that indicated any form of specific -- with a complaint of
6 a shelling of a civilian area or civilian people? Was that ever
7 represented to you as a retaliatory action for some kind of action by the
8 ABiH? Did Indic ever say that, suggest it?
9 A. I'm -- well, in answer to the question as I understand it, he
10 never referred to it as a retaliation towards targeting of civilians on
11 his side. The only time I ever heard anybody on his side refer to that or
12 him himself was when one of their soldiers was wounded or killed. I do
13 know that civilians on that side occasionally were casualties, because I
14 saw some civilians who had been wounded in the hospital, but I don't know
15 if they connected -- this particular procedure with that particular
16 incident. I have no knowledge of that.
17 Q. So were there ever, from Major Indic, when you either were present
18 with him and heard of a complaint coming in from UNPROFOR or you mentioned
19 a shelling or sniping incident to him yourself, did Major Indic ever
20 suggest it came from another source than the Bosnian Serb forces around
22 A. I don't recall him saying personally at the moment, I don't recall
23 him saying it. I have heard on that side in Pale, especially, I heard
24 one -- when I met with Dr. Kalenic and Dr. Starevic that the Bosnians
25 probably shelled themselves but not Indic. I mean, in reference to a
1 question you asked earlier about the hospital, one day, he said, "We'll
2 stop shelling it when we have it back." I mean, that's the kind of
3 comments that he would make, meaning to me that he had some control over
5 Q. And what about his comment about -- I think you've referred to
6 when you first were able to speak frankly with him about destroying the
7 city, "We could destroy the city"? Did he make any other comment on that
8 occasion about what the end result would be?
9 A. Yes. He said, "We wouldn't want to destroy the city, because we
10 plan to reoccupy it." He didn't say it quite in that particular
11 expression, but it was very close to that. The quote was very close to
12 that. He insinuated that they were going to go back into the city at some
13 point in the future and that the Muslims would disarm and give it up. But
14 when he saw the pictures of the hospital, of course, he laughed and he
15 said, "Did we do that?" You know, he was very specific with funny little
16 gestures at times. He would make these comments off the cuff.
17 Q. Did he ever make any reference to you on the issue of their
18 actions being a response to provocation by the opposing military, that is,
19 Indic himself when he went out to Lukavica?
20 A. I never heard him or anyone in Lukavica refer to the provocations
21 of the opposing military other than the fact that they could -- that the
22 Bosnians could give up this fruitless fight.
23 Q. You've mentioned that you have had encounters with General Galic,
24 and obviously with Colonel Indic. Did you ever have a personal encounter
25 with or be in the presence of anyone with higher military command of the
1 Bosnian Serbs, the VRS?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. When was that, sir?
4 A. That was at the Sarajevo airport, end of -- somewhere in the
5 latter part of 1992.
6 Q. And whom did you encounter?
7 A. I encountered General Morillon and General Mladic, and they
8 were -- I'm sorry.
9 Q. Sorry. Yes. And what did you witness on that occasion?
10 A. They were having a very heated discussion. Morillon was obviously
11 very angry. Mladic was very angry. And I remember Morillon turning his
12 back on him and telling him that he was acting as a very unprofessional
13 military man and he wasn't going -- he turned around and walked away and
14 turned around and said, "When you're ready to act like a civilised human
15 being and a civilised soldier, I will speak to you." But he also was mad
16 because General Mladic said, "The city is going to pay for this. You
17 watch. You wait and see." I mean, Mladic clearly, in front of me,
18 indicated that something bad was going to happen, and I assumed, and I
19 have no knowledge of this, but I assume the conversation was about control
20 of the airport, because there had been all morning long heated discussions
21 about the Serbs searching the cargos coming into the airport and Morillon
22 being called out for that.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. BLAXILL: Now, at this point, Your Honours, I would like to
25 put the map that has been marked by Mr. Ashton to him. Not the one that
1 he has been marking. I mean the one on the list.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So this is -- it's a document until now. It's not an
3 exhibit yet.
4 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, indeed. It's a document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And it is a map, as I understand, with markings made
6 by the witness himself on it.
7 MR. BLAXILL: That is correct.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And no other markings by anyone else.
9 MR. BLAXILL: No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin or Ms. Pilipovic, would you like to
11 comment on this?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN [Interpretation]: Mr. President, what I have
13 recently said remains. We have not had the opportunity to discuss the
14 contents of this map with General Galic, and we believe that the map
15 should be rejected. And if you want me, I can advance further arguments
16 in that respect. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need to -- I mean, could --
18 perhaps in the absence of the witness, could the Court have an indication,
19 at least see the map, in order to give a fair judgement on how much time
20 it would take to prepare with your client the remarks. I don't know
21 whether it's a map full of remarks or not, but I'd rather discuss this in
22 the absence of the witness. So if, Mr. Usher, you would just accompany
23 Mr. Ashton out of this courtroom.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, before giving you the opportunity
2 to comment, the Court would like to have an impression, at least, of what
3 these markings are about, not on the content but just on the ...
4 Mr. Blaxill, could we -- could you provide the Chamber with a copy
5 of the marked map in order to give us a better idea of what it is.
6 MR. BLAXILL: I think a full set has been supplied to the Court.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you --
8 MR. BLAXILL: I see it probably on the end of the usher's desk
10 JUDGE ORIE: I see it's there, yes.
11 MR. BLAXILL: Perhaps whilst that is being distributed, Your
12 Honours, I can say that it is a map that bears brief annotations that
13 simply are illustrative of what will be given as oral testimony by the
14 witness. It's essentially an aide-memoire to himself, marked for that
16 JUDGE ORIE: I see the map is in a bundle of selected
17 photographs. We're not talking about the photographs at this moment.
18 MR. BLAXILL: No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We're just talking about the map.
20 MR. BLAXILL: The photographs are the other documents I will be
21 trying to put before you later.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first concentrate on the map. Without going in
23 any detail at this moment, but as far as I can read it - I cannot read it
24 all - but the remarks in red on the map, on the original - I think it's
25 also on the copies - do they refer to existing situations or to activities
1 of the witness?
2 MR. BLAXILL: To that extent, they refer essentially to, I think,
3 almost exclusively weapons or vehicles or locations that he saw on given
4 dates, in given places. So it relates to his activities, because these
5 were observations made in his travels.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. BLAXILL: But they do not refer to what he was doing at that
8 time, simply what he observed in place.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let me just have one -- so this map has not
10 been provided to the Defence before?
11 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. It was provided at the same time as the
12 statement that was concluded on the 14th of November, and that statement
13 was then disclosed, and this was disclosed with it, in December.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. No. Thank
15 you. I have to protest against what has just been said. Let me reiterate
16 that the accused has had the opportunity to see the contents of the map,
17 that is, the annotations marked in red, only in translation, the number of
18 which is 03042406, which was provided to the Defence yesterday evening, in
19 front of this Honourable Chamber, at around 1800 hours. It was physically
20 impossible for us to give the translation to General Galic in the
21 meantime, who still doesn't know what this is all about. I can by no
22 means tolerate such an allegation, that is, that the map was given to the
23 Defence in November. It was given to us yesterday evening.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I will first confirm with my colleagues, unless you
25 have any --
1 MR. BLAXILL: I can only say that the document that was handed
2 over yesterday was, in fact, simply a translation of the entries on that
3 map, the map itself, as it stands, was served 26 November last year, along
4 with the statement.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it has been indicated on your list of
6 exhibits that you would use this map.
7 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do understand that your
9 client should have an opportunity to look into this kind of material. You
10 were aware of this map in the English version would be used before, and
11 did you discuss with your client that -- well, it's just a guess, that the
12 approximately 120 words on it could be discussed with him, since you have
13 access to their contents?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for
15 giving me the opportunity to respond. I'm not a military expert, and this
16 is not merely a linguistical problem. We are dealing here with military
17 tactics and strategy. I don't know how much time I will need to confer
18 with General Galic, because it is quite possible that these very few
19 words, technical words, are very important. These words describe weapons
20 and vehicles and can have consequences that I cannot envisage at the
21 moment. And I --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I understand, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but what I do not
23 understand is that since this map is available to you in the English
24 language already for quite some time that you did not sit together and say
25 in 1 it says or in 9 it says once in 1994 I saw a, et cetera, et cetera.
1 That would have taken 15 minutes to translate it to your client and then
2 he could make --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but --
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- what kind of importance this map would have.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I fully
6 understand what you mean. However, up until the last moment, I was not
7 aware, I didn't know whether this map will be produced or not. There's
8 hundreds of exhibits, even thousands, and some of them have not been
9 translated. I cannot be in the position where I have to guess which
10 exhibit will be finally tendered. We have to be given reasonable amount
11 of time to study the material, and I think that this map, practically
12 speaking, has only recently been provided to the Defence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I can see, it has been on the list, the
14 schedule of the Prosecution case that this Exhibit, 3645, would be used in
15 evidence, and that has been given quite some time prior to today.
16 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will
18 take only three minutes to explain -- to try to explain the reasons of
19 this misunderstanding. At the beginning of the trial I received a list of
20 witnesses, together with the list of exhibits which my learned friends
21 intend to tender through those witnesses. At the time I received the list
22 of witnesses, the only information I had was that the photographs would be
23 tendered into evidence. We finished on the 14th of December, and on the
24 3rd or the 4th of January, I received a new witness list, without any
25 remarks as to the change in exhibits concerning these witnesses. In this
1 list, I see that the map was also supposed to be tendered into evidence.
2 We met with Mr. Fourmy after the break, that is, during the break,
3 pursuant to your recommendation, and we received a sort of order from Mr.
4 Fourmy for the Defence to provide the -- for the Prosecution to provide
5 with the Defence with a list of witnesses and the list of exhibits which
6 they intend to tender through those witnesses, and I do not think that
7 this has been respected by my friends from the Prosecution.
8 We had a meeting at the Prosecution's office on Monday, and on
9 Tuesday, and I believe that they had an opportunity to give me that map
10 and to indicate that they would tender it into evidence. Yesterday we had
11 to look for this map in this huge number of binders that we had. I didn't
12 receive the map up until yesterday evening, although I had a meeting with
13 the Prosecution both on Monday and on Tuesday. I simply had to draw your
14 attention to this problem, because I do not wish to have any problems with
15 delays, and we agreed that the delay would be seven days. In the
16 meantime, I have requested the list of witnesses and exhibits for the
17 following week. I believe that this is the essence of the problem.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we have the confirmation
19 that these pieces were indeed received by the Defence.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. That the exhibits
21 were previously disclosed to the Defence.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber is of the opinion that we cannot just
25 proceed at this moment, although the Defence could have taken action
1 easily at an earlier stage, since the markings are not such that they
2 could not have discussed with your client. Nevertheless, we think it wise
3 to adjourn a bit earlier now and at least until 2.30, when we will resume,
4 that an opportunity will be given to the Defence to discuss the matter
5 with their client and -- well, then we'll see at that moment whether we
6 can proceed or not. But one of my questions is whether there will be an
7 opportunity for the -- for counsel for the Defence to confer with General
8 Galic over the lunch pause. Is this any practical problem involved or ...
9 Does the Prosecution know -- does the Registry know whether there are any
10 practical problems involved in sitting together, the Defence counsel with
11 General Galic? You're nodding, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Does this mean that
12 are there are practical problems?
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: There are.
14 JUDGE ORIE: There are. Could they be solved in one way or
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, perhaps I should consult with the
17 security officer to see whether there is any practical problem there. I
18 don't think so, actually.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If you would please do so. It will take how much
21 THE REGISTRAR: Give me a second. Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A second. We'll wait.
23 (Registrar confers with security officer)
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the security officer just confirmed
25 me that the Defence counsel can just to the cell, talk to the accused.
1 There is no problem there.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Ms. Pilipovic, standing up, and you would like to add something?
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to add: It is
5 not simply a matter of this map, since the Defence has been told that we
6 could have discussed these ten technical terms with our client. I must
7 say that at 12.30 on Monday, I got two statements, 50 pages from
8 Mr. Ashton, who is being cross-examined today. I never pointed it out
9 because I felt it was my obligation to look through all that. But I
10 received these two statements, 50 pages in my own language, on Monday
11 only, and it was my obligation to get my client acquainted with all that
12 on Tuesday in order for us to prepare for this cross-examination. I'm
13 just pointing this out in order to stress that I wouldn't like the Defence
14 to be put into this situation ever again. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber is not blind for the difficulties the
16 Defence is facing. I hope that that's clear to you.
17 So we'll then adjourn until 2.30, and Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you want
18 a longer lunch break?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not at all, but I must remind
20 you that you had indicated that I would have ten minutes in order to
21 outline my problems. Let me do that for ten minutes, or maybe we could do
22 that for ten minutes at the beginning of the afternoon session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we had better do it now, at the end of the
24 morning session, because I don't know whether this will take time this
25 afternoon which will not be spent at this moment. So I'll give you the
1 opportunity now to raise the issues you wanted to raise, and apart from
2 that, you have the opportunity to speak with your client over the --
3 during the lunch break.
4 If that is agreeable for the Prosecution. Thank you.
5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for
7 giving me the floor. A part of the problem that I wanted to go into has
8 more or less been dealt with today. I believe it has to do with the moral
9 obligation, on the one hand, but I thought it was a legal obligation as
10 well, for both parties to loyally exchange information and on time. Let
11 me reiterate this. The two documents that we've just referred to are the
12 documents which have made it obligatory for the Defence it try and work
13 until 3.00 a.m., which of course affects us in a certain way, as you may
14 imagine, and especially it has prevented General Galic himself from
15 finding out about the contents of the documents that are being tendered
16 against him. Let me reiterated this. Until this very moment, General
17 Galic has not had an opportunity to get acquainted with those documents.
18 He has not been able to talk with his counsel and we have not been able to
19 instruct General Galic in the best possible way about the contents of
20 these documents, and this is the reason why the Defence is going to
21 formally continue to insist on this principle to be respected. I mean,
22 for those papers and documents which have not been tendered within
23 reasonable time as established by your Chamber, we will ask for those
24 documents to be simply rejected.
25 That's my first point. The other two points are very brief,
1 Mr. President. It is a matter of organisation that I'd like to refer to.
2 I've had the opportunity, and my learned friend as well, to talk to a
3 certain number of other colleagues with reference to other dossiers, and
4 we've realised that of course justice should follow its course in a
5 certain way, and it takes time to do what needs to be done. Some of us,
6 and I believe quite a few of us, are of the view that five-day working
7 week in this way is not all together reasonable for all sorts of reasons.
8 We do know that organising such a trial is not an easy matter. It does
9 not go without saying. Of course you have all sorts of parameters. We
10 are not the only trial. This is not the only thing that the Court has to
11 do. But nevertheless, we would like to submit a proposal to you. That is
12 to say, a four-day working week for this particular trial would be more
13 convenient in such a way as to make it possible for us to either work on
14 other matters on the last day of the week, on the remaining working day,
15 or else get better organised for the purposes of this very trial, and also
16 in the same way, we would have liked, for as long as it is possible, and
17 if we can agree with the Prosecution, for us to take one entire week per
18 month, which would be a week that we could have off. I think it is not
19 all that difficult to understand that it is necessary for all of us to get
21 Well, that's all I have to say, and thank you very much for
22 listening to my arguments.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, thank you for your remarks. So I
24 have identified two issues: First of all, the documents, and the second
25 one is the Scheduling Order and whether we will sit five days a week or
1 four weeks of the month.
2 Mr. Blaxill, would you like to --
3 MR. BLAXILL: Sorry, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to respond, or Mr. Ierace, would you
5 like to respond, not two at the same time.
6 MR. BLAXILL: No, sir. The question, Your Honour, I would ask is
7 perhaps could we reserve a response until 2.30 and give it some
8 consideration? If not, perhaps if my learned friend has -- this is very
9 much a strategic issue for the longer term and he may be the better one to
10 address you on it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You prefer to respond in the beginning of the
13 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I would prefer to respond at 2.30, but I
14 can do that now, if Your Honours prefer it.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: You may respond at 2.30 this afternoon.
17 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think that your response, you mainly will need the
19 time to consider the question of four days a week and not the documents
21 MR. IERACE: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: As far as the documents issue is concerned, one of
23 the intentions of this Court was, before the Christmas recess, that it
24 would be discussed with the parties and that it would be clear, at least a
25 couple of days in advance of every court day, that all the documents were
1 received in all the languages needed by the other parties so that we would
2 be freed from this kind of -- these communication problems. If the
3 parties do not succeed in clarifying this a couple of days, at least, in
4 advance, I'll do it for the coming days at this very moment. Because we
5 see -- we have a list in front of us, a list with the names of the
6 witnesses and the name of the exhibits that -- and I just want to check
7 now whether there's any problem with any of the exhibits to be used in the
8 coming days. So therefore, I just want to go to -- if you would agree, on
9 the paper which is -- the heading reads "Schedule of Prosecution case 9th
10 of January 2002 until the 16th of January, 2002." You have got that in
11 front of you.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, we do have it. It's
14 JUDGE ORIE: So we are now at the third witness, John Ashton, so
15 we discussed that at this moment. The fourth witness, no exhibits, so
16 that could not cause any problem. The fifth witness, Exhibit 1183 is
17 death certificates. Is it available to the Defence, any need of other
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It appears that we do have
20 those certificates. I would just like to specify that the problem we had
21 raised was of the photocopies being of poor quality, and we'll have to
22 take a look at these certificates.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Whether poor quality or not, are they good enough to
24 read or are they not? Otherwise --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll have to check. I can't
1 tell you now.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please check by today, together with the Prosecution,
3 whether you need any other photocopies of better quality.
4 Then I've got Exhibit 2506A, medical certificates. Do you have
5 copies of it? The language is good? Okay. Then I go to the sixth
6 witness. There are no exhibits. The seventh witness, we have Exhibit
7 3626, CD containing fire brigade reports, and a hard copy under 3626A,
8 3626B, and 3626C, and 3626D. Do you have -- have you been provided --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It appears, Mr. President,
10 that my colleague, Ms. Pilipovic, does not have all these documents, or
11 not -- doesn't have the documents in their entirety.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please check, together with the
13 Prosecution, whether you have these documents, and it's indicated that
14 they were disclosed on the 26th of 11. And please report within one day
15 if there's any problem with that.
16 Then still with the seventh witness, Exhibit 1138, set of
17 documents, fire department. Disclosed approximately half a year ago. Do
18 you have it in your possession or not? Yes?
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence received
21 it on a hard disk, on a disk, and we've got it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You've got it, in a language you -- everyone who
23 needs to understand it understands? Okay. Thank you.
24 Then we are on the eighth witness, Exhibit 294, which is the same
25 as Exhibit 295. Defence has got it?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't believe we are talking
2 about the same list, Mr. Chairman. The list that we have in front of us
3 is an old one. What is the date on the list that you're referring to?
4 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think it gives a date, but I received a
5 list -- the first list I received was schedule of Prosecution case first
6 15 days in court, and then I got a new list, schedule of Prosecution case,
7 9th of January 2002, which starts with the first witness, Bakir Nakas, who
8 was the fourth witness on the first list.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So we were then on the eighth witness, Exhibit 294.
11 Did you receive it?
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the Exhibit
13 number 8, on Tuesday, I received disclosed statement from this witness. I
14 did not have it previously and I did not receive any documents or exhibits
15 accompanying that statement. Perhaps -- no. On Tuesday I received the
16 statement from Witness B. Yes, I did. My colleagues seem to be
17 surprised, but -- okay, I'm not going to disclose the name of the witness,
18 but I did ask.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We are not talking about names at this moment, but
20 that's why I indicate a number on the list.
21 Mr. Blaxill or Mr. Ierace, one when has the statement of this
22 witness been provided to the Defence? I'm not talking about the exhibit
23 at this moment but just about the statement.
24 MR. IERACE: In relation to the statement, I met with
25 Ms. Pilipovic on Monday and she informed me that she had a copy of the
1 statement but that is it had some redactions on it and she wanted and
2 unredacted copy, so I gave her an unredacted copy on Tuesday.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you comment on that, Ms. Pilipovic?
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that revised
6 statement that I thought was by that witness is not a statement by that
7 witness, by Mr. Stefan who is on the same team as my learned friends
8 assisted me. So I got it. I got a redacted statement, and since it is
9 from a nurse, I thought it was the name and surname of that particular
10 witness, and then it turned out later on that it was from somebody else,
11 an all together different witness. The one which had been redacted my
12 learned colleague Mark told me that it was their intention to invite
13 her next week. And for this witness, Witness B, I received no exhibits
14 and I got the statement on Tuesday.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please comment on that or solve this
16 problem? And would it be possible for the Prosecution perhaps to
17 reschedule, if necessary -- I don't know what kind of arrangements have
18 already been made for the witness numbered 8 on the list, so that ...
19 MR. BLAXILL: Your Honour, there are initial arrangements being
20 placed in hand, so I mean, obviously at this time for a witness that far
21 down the list that's as far as it goes. The system is alerted in
22 readiness to prepare for that witness to travel. This all sounds rather
23 strange and I think we would like perhaps to use the opportunity of the
24 lunch break to clarify when the documents were indeed served and so forth
25 as it is confusing somewhat.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since the lunch break will have to be used by
2 the Defence for other reasons, I'm waiting for your observations on
3 Exhibit 294, 295, and the statement of the witness.
4 Let me then continue. Witness 9 on the list, no exhibits. It
5 should cause no problem.
6 Witness 10 on the list, I've got Exhibit 3625. Is it available to
7 the Defence?
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I suppose -- well, I
9 have not prepared for this witness yet. I've got two statements from that
10 witness, which I also received last week. I suppose they must have been
11 translated and submitted in December, but I got them when I got here. I
12 will check it out. I'll try and check whether I have the exhibits
13 enclosed with that statement. Perhaps if it is easier for my colleagues,
14 they could prepare the photos, or if they had been enclosed with the text
15 3625, I'll look for them.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If there is any problem with Exhibit 3625,
17 please let me know by today.
18 Witness D, Exhibit 289, number 11 on the list. Any problem with
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For this particular witness, we've
21 got quite a few exhibits. I'm going to check whether they are in the
22 file, and I will be letting my learned friends know. If not, I'll
23 prepare, because I suppose that witness will be cross-examined next week.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So this might be valid also for the other
25 exhibits listed.
1 What I did, as a matter of fact, during the last ten
2 minutes, is what I expect you to do out of this Court. The Prosecution
3 has given a list of witnesses and exhibits. This Chamber doesn't want to
4 be confronted with any problem just at the very moment of the presentation
5 of an exhibit. We worked, I think, approximately one week in advance,
6 which is a short period of time; I'm aware of that. But I'd like, at this
7 moment the Defence, but later on the Prosecution, in a similar way, to
8 report, clearly and well in advance, if there's any exhibit not provided
9 to them or not provided in a form they can read because of the quality of
10 the photocopies or because of the language concerned. So one week in
11 advance, at least, this job, which took us exactly 30 minutes for one
12 week, should be performed by the parties.
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you'd like to comment on ...
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you. The
15 Defence sees it as a matter of honour to stick to this timetable. As
16 you've seen, we protested immediately yesterday when we got the documents
17 which were submitted during the hearing, during the trial. We will
18 protest again. We have not been in a position to make our protests
19 earlier, because we did not know about this.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not blaming, at this moment, anyone for anything
21 they -- whether there was a reason to blame one of the parties for what
22 has happened. I should discuss this with my colleagues. The only thing I
23 want is practical solutions in order to guarantee that the trial will be
24 fair and it will not be a trial by surprise. If you could please keep
25 that in your mind and try to do the same exercise always seven, preferably
1 even ten days in advance, we would be much obliged.
2 Then we'll have a break now until 2.30.
3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I would like
3 to start with inviting the Prosecution to respond on the suggestions made
4 by the Defence concerning the organisation of this trial. Mr. Ierace.
5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, the position of
6 the Prosecution is that we are prepared to adhere to the present
7 timetable; that is, we are in a position to continue to call witnesses and
8 evidence according to the present timetable. I don't make an application
9 that we have a four-day week and a three-week month; however, I do not
10 speak against it. I regard it as a matter for the Trial Chamber as to
11 whether the Defence proposal is accepted, and I make this observation:
12 That if Your Honours determine that in fact there is a four-day week and a
13 three-week month, that I am confident the time we then have out of court
14 can be profitably used by the Prosecution, both in communicating with the
15 Defence and ensuring a smoother-running trial, and also in better
16 preparing the Prosecution evidence. So whilst we are not moved to seek
17 it, we could certainly take full advantage of it, to the benefit of the
18 smooth running of the trial. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. The Chamber will think of
20 your suggestions, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as far as they concern the
21 four-days-a-week trial instead of five days a week, and the Chamber has
22 already given some thought on your suggestion not to sit four weeks a
23 month but just three weeks a month, and this latter proposal will not be
24 followed by the Chamber, but we'll give you our views on one day off a
25 week, I think by tomorrow.
1 Then one of the issues raised this morning was the admissibility
2 of the map with the markings on it to be used. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would
3 you please inform the Chamber about the results of your lunch break
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] First of all, thank you very
6 much, Mr. President, for your answer regarding the issue that we brought
7 up before the break. As for the result, I think that unfortunately we had
8 very little time, and I'm not very positive about it. It was not possible
9 for General Galic to examine in just a few minutes that we had with him in
10 any detailed manner the documents, so we do have some information but it
11 is, I'm afraid, of a very basic character, and it is by no means
12 sufficient, and that is why I persist on behalf of the Defence to ask once
13 again that the documents be excluded, that is, that they do not be
14 admitted by the Chamber as exhibits, because the accused has not had
15 reasonable opportunity to examine them.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Ierace, you would like to respond?
18 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, in relation to the disclosure of this
19 material, the situation, as I understand it, is as follows: The statement
20 was signed by the witness on the 14th of November, that is, the statement
21 including the map which was annexed to it. The map and the final
22 selection of photographs which have been made available to the Trial
23 Chamber were not included on the exhibit list, because that predated the
24 taking of the statement. The statement and the map and the photographs
25 were disclosed to the Defence on the 26th of November last year. The form
1 of delivery of those documents was that they were placed in the Defence
2 box in the Tribunal precincts. I understand that they were not collected
3 until the 1st of December, 2001. That material included a form to be
4 signed by the Defence and to be returned to the Prosecution acknowledging
5 that disclosure had been received. We do not have that form. We have not
6 received that form. There was some other material disclosed at the same
7 time in the form of witness binders.
8 The statement and the annotations on the map were lodged for
9 translation in a proper time framework. The Defence would have clearly
10 appreciate, when they received the statement, the map, and the
11 photographs, that they did not have with them the formal translations, and
12 in that sense they would have been on notice that they were still coming.
13 As soon as the translations were received by the Prosecution from the
14 Translation Unit, they were made available to the Defence. The statement
15 in its translated form was provided to the Defence on the 7th of January.
16 Your Honours, therefore, I fail to understand why it should be
17 that the map, or more particularly, the notes which are annexed to the
18 map, should be excluded from evidence. The Prosecution has not done
19 anything which would prejudice the Defence, and certainly the Prosecution
20 has not done anything which would warrant this material being excluded
21 from evidence.
22 The Defence seeks sufficient time to obtain instructions in
23 relation to the notes which are placed on the map from their client, the
24 accused. The Defence has been in a position to obtain those instructions
25 since the 1st of December, when they received the English version of the
1 statement and the English version of the notes on the map. Your Honours
2 have had an opportunity to view the map and the notes. It is apparent
3 that there is very little in the way of writing on the map, and one must
4 wonder how it is that the Defence was able to seek sufficient instructions
5 on the content of the statement, which numbers, I think, in excess of some
6 20 pages, and yet is not in a position to obtain instructions in relation
7 to a few sentences which are contained on the map.
8 Your Honours, it is one thing for the Defence to seek sufficient
9 time to cross-examine this witness as to the content of the notes on the
10 map. It is quite another thing for the map to be excluded from evidence.
11 I think it's also relevant to Your Honours' determination to
12 consider that there is no reason as to why the witness could not give that
13 same evidence orally and make relevant markings on the standard map which
14 is before the Court, in exactly the same manner as he has done, say, thus
15 far in his testimony. But in any event, it is clearly more convenient to
16 a smooth-running trial that, where possible, a witness should mark the
17 map, copies should be provided to the Defence to tender to the Court in
18 order to save time. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one question, Mr. Ierace. Did I
20 understand well that the translation of the statement in B/C/S was
21 provided -- of this witness, Mr. Ashton, was provided to the Defence only
22 a couple of days ago.
23 MR. IERACE: Yes. It was provided shortly after we received it,
24 which was the 7th of January, and the translation of the notes on the map
25 was also provided shortly after we received it, which was yesterday.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: As you may have noticed, we considered the
4 objection. The Chamber finds that, especially the content of both the
5 statement and of the remarks that have been put on the map, are such that
6 the accused himself should have a good opportunity to go through it in
7 more detail. On the other hand, the Chamber is aware that the testimony
8 to be expected could be given also without a map, as such, and would
9 certainly be less clear then. Therefore, the Prosecution may use the map
10 during examination-in-chief, and the Defence, if there is a need of extra
11 time in order to prepare cross-examination, request to that extent would
12 be granted even if it would mean that Mr. Ashton should be recalled at a
13 later time, because it's very important information we expect to hear from
14 the witness and to see on the map, and therefore full opportunity should
15 be given to the accused to discuss it with counsel the exact content both
16 of the statement and of the map. So we'll proceed at this moment, but if
17 the Defence feels that it's not able to cross-examine on this specific
18 issue - we're not talking about other issues dealt with by the Prosecution
19 up to this moment - then a request for extra time will be granted so that
20 you might have an opportunity, either in the evenings or during the
21 weekend, to further prepare for cross-examination.
22 So that is the decision on your request, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and
23 Mr. Blaxill may now proceed after the witness has been brought in the
24 courtroom with the examination-in-chief and use the map.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Blaxill.
1 MR. BLAXILL: I'm most obliged, Your Honour. Thank you.
2 Q. Mr. Ashton, I made reference to a map I would ask you to look at
3 in a moment, but in fact I do have a couple of questions remaining
4 regarding certain of the markings you made on the large map, which still
5 rests on your elbow. And the question I have is this: In relation to
6 that map you marked, I think, four places, where you say there were
7 barricades put up against snipers, I believe at the Presidency or near it,
8 near Energoinvest and two other locations near Holiday Inn. Could you say
9 in respect of each of those places what protection did those barriers
10 actually afford to passing civilians, as far as you're aware from your
12 A. They provided a bit of a shield for people coming from behind
13 buildings; however, I was later to find out that in the Serb positions,
14 when I went up there, that they could be seen crossing between the
15 containers, where there were gaps. When gunfire came into the containers,
16 the larger-calibre rounds went right through them. They didn't really
17 protect --
18 Q. Just slow a little, sir.
19 A. They didn't really protect people. It was quite easy to track
20 somebody while they moved and then target them at a very small gap, but
21 the containers did not provide complete cover for people coming down
22 streets through the city, towards the containers from hills, and it still
23 was an open target to try to get to the container.
24 Q. In respect of those locations I've mentioned to you, can you tell
25 us, please, from what areas those particular barriers afforded protection?
1 A. Trebevic, Grbavica, and the area -- can I refer to the map?
2 Q. Please do, yes. You marked it.
3 A. The area above Hrasnica, Trg Heroje, directly above the sports
5 Q. If we just hold on a moment, perhaps that could go on to the
6 screen. Perhaps you could point to that area.
7 A. Okay. This area up in here. There was a series of houses located
8 on the hills above the sports complex, around the sports complex, and
9 these afforded hidden positions for Serb snipers.
10 Q. Perhaps you could just put the letter "S" there as an indicator
11 for future reference.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And having mentioned those areas, were they relevant areas for
14 each of the four barricade points you've referred to? In other words, was
15 each point vulnerable from all of those areas?
16 A. Yes, each point was vulnerable from all of those areas.
17 Q. Thank you. I think at this point, Your Honours, I would perhaps
18 ask if Mr. Ashton could simply sign that map to show that the markings
19 that he has placed upon it and then in due course I can tender it to Your
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I think that what we --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry. I think that we have the rule that we
24 wait until at cross-examination any markings in another colour, and I
25 think you have marked in red as well --
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- just a minute ago. After the black markings, as a
3 result of cross-examination, are put on the map, that they will be then
4 tendered into evidence.
5 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. I wasn't proposing the tendering process right
6 now, but, Your Honour, of course we'll do it that way.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: -- can I give the number to the map?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, provisionally you may give it an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Identification number?
12 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think it gets a "P" number as soon as it will
13 be admitted into evidence. It depends on what the Defence still wants to
14 do with the map. We have a specific procedure for that arranged for, and
15 we'll discuss it.
16 THE REGISTRAR: At this moment I'll just give a number to it. It
17 was admitted into evidence --
18 JUDGE ORIE: You will provisionally give it -- what number?
19 Because it will be a Prosecution exhibit, and Prosecution exhibits should
20 be prenumbered by the Prosecution, so --
21 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. It is the -- the number escapes me. It is the
22 number that was given to the blank map of which that is a copy at the very
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. BLAXILL: And I don't remember the number. We will supply it
1 to Your Honours in a moment.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
3 MR. BLAXILL: And I think what we have previously done is we then
4 put the initials of the witness, so it will be P something JA.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So that will be the number once it has been
6 admitted. I do not think it is any use to give it an identification
7 number provisionally so -- but that is at this moment the number will
8 expect it will receive if it's entered into evidence.
9 MR. BLAXILL: It's 3644, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: 3644.
11 THE REGISTRAR: I think it's 3644.JA.
12 MR. BLAXILL: That's correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That will be the number. Please proceed.
14 MR. BLAXILL: Now perhaps if the other map could now be handed to
15 Mr. Ashton, the one bearing the markings, please.
16 Q. Mr. Ashton, do you recognise that document in front of you?
17 A. Yes, I do. It's signed by me. It's marked by myself.
18 Q. And do you see any -- you say marked by yourself. I was going to
19 say, do you see any markings or annotations on there?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. And you stated they were made by you?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Do you recall when you did that?
24 A. Back in either -- the end of October or early November this year,
25 2001, excuse me. Correction.
1 Q. Mr. Ashton, it may sound like I'm stating the obvious. Does that
2 appear to you to be a map of the region of Sarajevo, city and surrounds?
3 A. Yes, it does.
4 Q. Mr. Ashton, I see that you have a number of numbered references on
5 there. Let's work through numerically. What is the significance,
6 firstly, of entry number 1, and what is it that you have written on the
7 map in respect of entry number 1?
8 A. Entry number 1 is where -- this is an approximate area, not the
9 exact area, because it's been eight years, but this is the approximate
10 area where one of the guns that I visited was located. That was
11 introduced to me by Serb soldiers at that location.
12 Q. Do you know the name of that location at all?
13 A. I guess this -- well, there is right -- Bistrik Kula is the area
14 where I was located.
15 Q. And you refer to a gun. Were you able to observe what kind of a
16 gun it was?
17 A. Yes. It was a large anti-aircraft gun.
18 Q. Do you recall the calibre or any particular name that attributes
19 to that gun?
20 A. There were two guns there. There was what was equivalent to a 50
21 calibre or 12.7 millimetre and also a 30 or 40 calibre. I don't know the
22 exact size of the calibre on that weapon.
23 Q. When did you first visit that location and see that gun?
24 A. March, April of 1993.
25 Q. Did you visit that site on any subsequent occasions?
1 A. About five times I stopped at that location.
2 Q. And on those -- were those five times between the period of
3 September 1992 and August of 1994 or --
4 A. All fell within that period, yes.
5 Q. When you visited, what were the circumstances or purpose of your
6 visiting that location?
7 A. I was driving along the blue-dotted route from Lukavica to Pale,
8 which was the standard route I took every two or three days, or once every
9 week, to go to Pale, to the hospital, or for meetings in Pale, and along
10 the way I ran into some soldiers who asked me to be driven from Pale to
11 this area or from Lukavica to this area, and I offered to let them ride in
12 the vehicle. I made a few contacts with them, and at one point I was
13 invited to come and have some coffee and slivovitz with them. That was my
14 first contact with that group that was at one gun, although I must say
15 that subsequent visits, they were not always the same people there at
16 that gun, they were always different Serb soldiers that I met.
17 Q. Sorry. Yes. May I just ask you that. You're making reference to
18 Serb soldiers at that location.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell me, please, how these people were dressed and what
21 features about them made them identifiable to you as Serb soldiers.
22 A. Some had camouflage uniform and some had solid green uniforms.
23 There were a few with a grey uniform. They all had insignias of some
25 Q. Slow, please, Mr. Ashton.
1 A. Insignias of some type. Mostly everyone had the insignia with the
2 four Cs in it, the Cyrillic.
3 Q. What did you understand the insignia with the four Cs to
5 A. That was Republika Srpska.
6 Q. Did you see anything about these soldiers that visually identified
7 them as members of a specific corps or division?
8 A. They had -- one of them had, that I constantly saw, had a maroon
9 symbol, but I can't remember the exact -- I saw that quite a bit on other
10 soldiers in the area, maroon patch.
11 Q. Sorry. I apologise. Did you learn from these people in some
12 other way the identity of the corps or formation to which they belonged?
13 A. No. They didn't specifically state that they belonged to any
14 particular corps.
15 Q. Was there any other sort of circumstances or information you
16 gleaned that led you to understand what corps they came from?
17 A. Well, most of them told me they were local people. They were from
18 the area of Grbavica or from the area of Pale, everywhere from around
19 Sarajevo. Many of them were expelled, they claimed, from Sarajevo. They
20 were part of the local corps that was there.
21 Q. Were you aware of the identity of the "local corps"?
22 A. Yes, I was aware of the identity of that local corps.
23 Q. And the identity of that local corps, sir, was what?
24 A. That was the Romanija corps.
25 Q. Was there anything in particular other than simply visiting and
1 talking to these men that you did?
2 A. Number 1 and number 2 were very much in the same situation. I
3 visited both of them, and sometimes the same men from number 1 were at
4 site number 2. They asked me to come and join them, drink slivovitz.
5 They asked me to participate in shooting into the city of Sarajevo.
6 Q. Can I stop you there for one second?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us when you say you were asked to participate?
9 A. March -- the last week of March, I believe, in 1992. It was muddy
10 and cold. I remember that.
11 Q. Can you recall, to the best of your recollection, the words used
12 to frame this invitation?
13 A. Well, I started a conversation with one of the young men there.
14 Q. I think His Honour would like to interrupt us?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see on the transcript, and that's what I
16 heard that you said, that you were talking about the last week of March
18 THE WITNESS: Correction. 1993.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 MR. BLAXILL: Thank you, Your Honour, for that. I should have
21 seen it myself.
22 Q. Yes, Mr. Ashton. I did ask you: Do you recall the way in which
23 that invitation to participate was put to you, what words used?
24 A. Well, the first tour, it was my first stop at that position. One
25 of the men introduced me to the other fellows in the pit there, and he
1 asked me -- well, the young gentleman who approached me and started
2 talking to me about the situation there and their shooting into the city
3 asked me to sit down and he said, "Would you like to take a shot into the
4 city? Would you like to fire a gun?" "Fire the gun." Correction.
5 Q. Did you notice -- what was your response to his invitation,
6 Mr. Ashton?
7 A. I told him that absolutely I was not going to participate in that,
8 and he said, "You can just fire into the city. You don't have to shoot
9 someone." He explained to me that their president, Radovan Karadzic, and
10 a Russian journalist or Russian writer, TV guy, I don't know, had recently
11 been up there and the Russian had fired into the city.
12 Q. Having said that, did any of the soldiers present on your first
13 visit to that site, or the site that encompasses 1 and 2 on the map, did
14 they say anything else about their shooting upon the city, what they were
15 aiming at, things like that?
16 A. Well, yes. On several -- there were several comments made by
17 several of the people there. Again, I had a translator there who was
18 translating for me. But they expressed that the -- one of them made the
19 comment like -- when I looked through the telescope they had arranged
20 there on the one gun, I couldn't believe how clear and how sharp and how
21 close the vision of the streets were which I drove in every day, and I
22 said to him -- I made a comment to him about how clear it was and how easy
23 it was to target somebody from there, and he said, "It's like shooting
24 sheep in a pasture." And then there were other comments made to the
25 example -- I asked, "What happens to people who are your relatives that
1 were left in the city, if you see a relative?" And one of them said,
2 "Well, if there are any Serbs left in the city, they had a chance to get
3 out." But another one said to me, "Oh, well we know when we see someone
4 who it is." They clearly could identify certain people, they knew people
5 in the city.
6 Q. Now, which of the guns you've referred to was the one you had the
7 offer to shoot?
8 A. The one up higher, towards the Vidikovac.
9 Q. Do you recall what kind of sighting equipment that gun had?
10 A. The day I was up there they told me they had mounted this
11 celestial telescope on the gun, which is what I looked through. It was a
12 very large telescope. On another occasion they had a different type of
13 scope on that gun and another gun at another location closer to Grbavica.
14 Q. And you said this other occasion. Can you say when that was?
15 A. That was closer to December or late 1993.
16 Q. 1993, December. Now, again, when you were at that first point,
17 you said they recognised -- you said they could recognise people through
18 the sights they had.
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Did they refer to anyone in particular whom you knew?
21 A. Well, I asked if they recognised my vehicle, and yes, they
22 referred to me. They said they knew my vehicle.
23 Q. And when you looked through and said you had this very clear view,
24 what areas of the city did you see with clarity from that position?
25 A. Well, clarity you could see all the way from Novo Sarajevo to
1 Bascarija, but the area that was easily targeted, would seem easily
2 targeted with that position, with that gun, was anywhere from Tito
3 barracks to Bascarija.
4 Q. Can you indicate, please, on that map, Tito barracks, point to
5 that and point to Bascarija and just show us the area that you're
6 referring to.
7 A. This is the area of coverage from where I'm starting here, all the
8 way down to where the old centre, the very bottom of the old centre of
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ashton. You've referred to seeing the people at
11 sites 1 and 2 wearing uniform. When you received the invitation to shoot
12 a gun, were the people there uniformed at that time?
13 A. Yes, they were.
14 Q. Were there any occasions that you visited that location and the
15 people were not uniformed in some way?
16 A. On a couple of occasions I saw non-uniformed people there.
17 Q. How many?
18 A. A couple of times there were actually children there talking to
19 the men. At least twice. At least two times that I was up in those
21 Q. But from your perception, the people on duty there, as it were,
22 were they always in uniform, the gunners?
23 A. Yes. I mean, sometimes they would have a normal civilian pair of
24 pants but a camouflage shirt or a jacket on. They didn't always have a
25 full uniform.
1 Q. And so can you remind us how many times you say you have been to
2 at that location?
3 A. Five times I was at that one location at the upper part, and about
4 six or seven times at the lower location.
5 Q. By that, do you refer to number 2?
6 A. Number 2.
7 Q. Did you see the weapon or those weapons being fired on any of the
8 occasions that you visited?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Can you tell us when those occasions were and which of those
11 weapons were fired?
12 A. I watched the anti-aircraft gun fired from the upper position. I
13 watched a 50-calibre, or the smaller-calibre gun fired from the lower
14 position, number 2, in that area.
15 Q. When did you see the anti-aircraft gun in the upper position being
17 A. Well, they fired that the first day I was there when they offered
18 to let me shoot.
19 Q. And on any other occasion?
20 A. Yes, sometime in the summer, because people were wearing
21 short-sleeved shirts.
22 Q. And aside from the use of optical sights, what was the view of the
23 city like from locations 1 and 2?
24 A. It was excellent. I mean, that area had a commanding view of the
25 entire city. There was very -- like I mentioned about the containers
1 earlier, even people coming down, you could almost see them, unless they
2 got right up behind the container, except where UNPROFOR stacked two
3 containers on top of each other.
4 Q. And I should have asked you before: When did you see -- or did
5 you see - I'm sorry - the smaller-calibre gun from the lower position?
6 Did you ever see that being fired?
7 A. Yes, I did, and it was fired down towards the Presidency area, and
8 I found out when I was discussing the shooting of the hospital that on a
9 daily basis they would fire at that building.
10 Q. And with whom were you discussing the shooting of the hospital,
11 and on which occasion?
12 A. There were several people there. I wouldn't be able to recall a
13 name. It's --
14 Q. Can you just indicate whether this was a soldier, a civilian?
15 A. No. These were soldiers. They were dressed in uniform at that
16 location. Especially the time I was talking about the hospital, there was
17 one fellow there dressed in a uniform and he had the little black hat on
18 and he -- his colleagues referred to him as "a real Chetnik."
19 Q. Yes. I'm not -- can you tell us what "the little black hat"
20 signifies? What sort of hat is this?
21 A. This was the Republika Srpska symbol on his hat, but I don't know
22 the significance of it. But I saw this on the Serb side on a couple of
23 occasions, and especially on older people, older gentlemen.
24 Q. And yes. The request, I think it's for both of us, but
25 particularly, Mr. Ashton, could we please slow down. We both have to
1 watch the transcript. It's getting over stressful for people.
2 Yes. Can you say, and again follow their words as best you recall
3 them, what did they say about the shooting at the hospital when you raised
5 A. Well, the one gentleman I talked to -- the only one that talked
6 about shooting at the hospital, I mentioned -- I brought the conversation
7 up because I said I heard a clack/thump every day when I was in the
8 hospital. Sometimes this would happen for about two hours every ten
9 minutes. Then there would be five, six days when you wouldn't hear it.
10 And what that was, I found out from him, they were firing at the hospital
11 one shot at a time, and I mentioned to him, whether I should or shouldn't
12 have told him, I didn't think about it at the time, but I mentioned to him
13 that the sound of hitting that back wall inside the hospital went through
14 the entire hospital infrastructure, the metal structure of the hospital
15 when the bullet hit the wall, and it was very annoying. And his comment
16 was, "Good."
17 Q. Did you -- do you recall any other specific comments from your
18 visits to that -- or those locations, 1 and 2, that were made by the
19 soldiers about their targets?
20 A. Yes. There were -- again, there was one comment made to me
21 about -- by one man who said they had shot at someone and they didn't
22 think they hit him. The bullet went wide. Because he admitted it was a
23 tracer bullet they had fired down there into the city, near the Presidency
24 building. But when the rescuers came in a small blue car, blue and white
25 car, one of them got out of the right side of the car, the other got out
1 of the left side of the car, and they fired one shot and blew his head
2 off, quote unquote, but they didn't tell me which one, referring to the
4 Q. And what was the demeanour of the soldier when he told you that?
5 A. Well, he said the guy they fired at fell down but didn't get up
6 and he thought he had had a heart attack, because he was an old man.
7 Q. Did the soldier seem concerned about that?
8 A. No, not at all.
9 Q. What was their attitude?
10 A. They laughed. One of them made a comment, a derogatory comment,
11 but I can't recall the comment afterwards.
12 Q. Where were you when that --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do understand that you want to
14 interfere once you stand up?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: You understand correctly, sir.
16 [Interpretation] Mr. President, the fact is, quite simply, that the
17 Defence would not really like to remind you of your obligations once
18 again, but I think we had provided for four and a half hours for this
19 witness, and we've got more than five hours already. So if we have to
20 look into all the documents connected to this, we will never finish with
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm quite grateful to you that you
23 assist me in my task of being in charge of this trial at this moment. I
24 would have made a comment on that at the time we'll adjourn, so it was not
25 out of my mind, and I'll pay proper attention to it.
1 Mr. Blaxill, you may proceed.
2 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. I'm mindful of the need to move on, but I
3 think the evidence is important, so I'll do my best to be as quick as
5 Q. Mr. Ashton, in relation to that incident described, where were you
6 at the time? Did you witness that at all or not?
7 A. No. I was not in that position. I was told about that. In a
8 way, they were bragging about their capabilities. One of them --
9 Q. Mr. Ashton, perhaps we could move on, because time is --
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. -- precious to the Court. Mr. Ashton, could you now indicate what
12 is the location marked "3" on the map there?
13 A. This is an intersection on the road from Pale to Lukavica. It's
14 the main intersection that the Serb citizens had to use to go down into
15 the city of Sarajevo, in their controlled area of Grbavica.
16 Q. And what did you see at that location?
17 A. There was always a checkpoint there with a -- what appeared to be
18 a Russian-style BMP, armoured personnel carrier.
19 Q. Did you ever stop at that location and communicate with anyone?
20 A. Briefly, but never any length of time. I had one young man,
21 actually, young officer, ask me for medicine for his family, and I came
22 back a day later and he was not there, but I gave it to another gentleman
23 who would give it to him.
24 Q. Did you ever see that particular piece of equipment being used in
25 anger? Did you ever see firing?
1 A. Not that piece of equipment. They did move it down into Grbavica
2 sometimes when I arrived in Grbavica.
3 Q. Well, I want to move on, in fact, to location number 4 on the
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Can you say where that is, please, and what did you see there?
7 A. That is down in the bottom of Grbavica, one block from the front
8 line, near the Bristol Hotel, which is across the river, on the Bosnian
9 side. At this location, or near this location, was a garage, and across
10 the street from the garage was an apartment building with an overhang, and
11 always there was a tank either in the garage or underneath that overhang,
12 or somewhere in the proximity of those buildings. I did see that tank
13 roll out one day in between two buildings and fire across past the Bristol
14 Hotel, into the city of Sarajevo, between the buildings.
15 Q. At that location, did you have any contact?
16 A. Yes. I had a lot of contact there with local people.
17 Q. By "local people," would they have been civilian, military?
18 A. Well, all the people -- all the men that I spoke with had uniforms
19 on, including the young men, and to my interest, when there were officers
20 or older men around, the young people were usually very cold to me, but
21 when I'd come over there and on certain days and their young people were
22 together in their uniforms, they would approach me and talk to me. They
23 even requested medicines from me.
24 Q. Did you ever have conversations with people at that location
25 regarding shooting upon the city by anyone?
1 A. Yes. They took me to -- in one of the apartment buildings, which
2 was heavily damaged on the side facing the ABiH, Bosnian army, and they
3 had these apartments very heavily sand bagged, barricaded with one or
4 another form of debris, and they took me to one position where one young
5 man claimed this was a great place to shoot people from, crossing by the
6 museum, between the museum and the --
7 Q. And by "people," what did you take that to mean?
8 A. Assuming civilians, because the target area that he pointed out to
9 me was the street. It was not the BiH front line, towards the Holiday
11 Q. I would like at this point, and if I may, Your Honour, to play a
12 very brief piece of video clip to the witness. It's the one I mentioned
13 earlier that comes from MFI-8, the one used in the opening of the case?
14 JUDGE ORIE: The video used in the opening of the case.
15 MR. BLAXILL: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please, I don't know what technical measures we need.
17 MR. BLAXILL: I believe it's all been set up with the booth.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.
19 THE WITNESS: That will be on the screen?
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think you need some help to get it on video.
21 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. We have to press the switch "video" at the top
22 of the little box.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Ashton --
25 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: We would like to ask you: Where is the
2 Bristol Hotel? You mentioned the Bristol Hotel.
3 A. The Bristol Hotel is just left -- just to the right -- I'm sorry.
4 If there's a street name here, I'll point to it on the map here. Just one
5 second. Okay. It's right in this area here, if you can see where my hand
6 is, my finger.
7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Okay. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you wanted to make ...
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
10 Mr. President. Thank you, Mr. President. I would just like to take this
11 opportunity, the fact that we need these technical arrangements, to say
12 that we do need some minimum level of translation. What I was saying
13 earlier on was not reminding the Trial Chamber of your obligations, or the
14 judge, but I wanted to remind the Prosecution of their obligations, and
15 this does not follow very clearly from the English transcript.
16 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any problem with the transcript, I'd like
17 you to -- unless there's any immediate misunderstanding, to come with that
18 idea at the end -- at the beginning -- I don't know exactly what you're
19 referring to, to be quite honest.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My idea was not to interrupt
21 the witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I think we could proceed at this moment, if
23 the technical facilities are there and if everyone puts the screen by
24 pushing the button "video," you may proceed.
25 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. If we could play the clip that's, I see now,
1 in readiness to play.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MR. BLAXILL: Stop at that point, please.
4 Q. At this point, Mr. Ashton, do you recognise any of the scene that
5 you have seen on the screen?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. If so, would you give a very brief description to the Court?
8 A. This is also the area of Grbavica where I saw the tank. It's very
9 close to the area where the garage was, not too far away from it.
10 Q. And where would you say the garage -- where does that relate in
11 respect to what looks like a bridge in the middle of the picture?
12 A. It's back -- the road winds. I don't know ... This is -- this
13 scene -- this is closer to the edge of -- towards Skenderija, the bottom
14 edge of Grbavica.
15 Q. Perhaps we could then just roll on a bit further, please.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. BLAXILL: You can stop the tape, please.
18 Q. And that second sequence of clips, could you just describe that,
19 if you recognise it at all?
20 A. The second sequence of clips was actually in Grbavica. It moved
21 between the two flats that fired right into -- right across the river into
22 the city centre or towards Tito barracks, in that area. There's a high
23 apartment between the Holiday Inn and Tito barracks and it's directly
24 across from that. That's not what I saw it fire from. I saw it fire
25 further down towards the Holiday Inn. It fired across the river at that
1 point. And I was startled, because I wasn't prepared for it. I saw the
2 tank moving, but I didn't know they were about to fire, and when they
3 fired, I fell to the ground because I thought it was a round exploding.
4 Q. And was that -- were the tanks in the video clip recognisable to
5 you as --
6 A. Yes, that's the type of tank that was there.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Could I ask you to move on to number 5 on the
8 map, please. Can you briefly tell us what that location was and what
9 you saw there?
10 A. This is the engineering -- this is the engineering battalion, or
11 the engineering garage for the VRS, the Serb Republic.
12 Q. Did you see any weaponry at that location?
13 A. There were some tanks there. Two of them I recall being in very
14 bad condition, broken down probably for spare parts. There were two
15 others that were there that were in good condition, being serviced. There
16 were several lorries there.
17 Q. Mr. Ashton, if we can move on perhaps, now, to point number 6 on
18 the map. Sorry. When did you actually visit at Lukavica?
19 A. That was in summer of 1993. I had to have my vehicle repaired,
20 and Major Indic authorised me to drive back there and have it done. There
21 was also a field gun covered with camouflage near the building.
22 Q. Okay, sir. Now moving on to entry number 6 on your map.
23 A. I've already referred to this as the area that I went in to the
24 building with some of the young men who took me through and showed me the
25 sniper position from that area right there. They told me that sometimes
1 the fighting was intense there.
2 Q. Now, again, that place number 6, when did you first visit that and
3 how many times did you visit that?
4 A. That was after the first visit to the gun position up at
5 Vidikovac. It's probably end of April of 1993.
6 Q. How many visits did you make to that location?
7 A. I was there ever two, three weeks when I went to the pharmacy in
8 Grbavica. I would stop is there and talk to some of the young men. There
9 was a family there that UNHCR had asked me to visit.
10 Q. Who were the young men present at that site? Military or
12 A. They were young soldiers in Serb uniforms.
13 Q. Are you able to ascertain, in fact, if they were from the same
14 force as the people on the other sites?
15 A. Yes, they were. In fact, one of them I met up at the site on the
17 Q. Did you have any particular conversation with those people
18 regarding shooting upon the city and/or their targets?
19 A. I did, and I made a comment about the Bosnians, and one of them
20 got very irate. He was drunk and he said, "They're not Bosnians; they are
21 vermin and rodents and I will kill every one of them if I can.
22 Q. Is there any other very significant feature about that location
23 that you recall from your visits, particularly?
24 A. Not that I can recall right now.
25 Q. Move to number 7, if you would, and indicate what you saw at that
2 A. 7 is when I was coming back from Pale one day. I was told by an
3 officer in Pale that I should not stop anywhere along that road prior to
4 that day, but that particular day I was coming back I was stopped by a
5 group of men. It was not really a checkpoint, but they asked me who I was
6 through my interpreter. My interpreter explained and then they invited us
7 to come over to their little area there, just off the road, where that he
8 had a large -- what appeared to be a 105 -- a type of an M-56 gun,
9 Howitzer. It was under camouflage but it was clear enough for me to see
10 the outline of it. The barrel was very clear to me. It was a Howitzer
11 and also there were shell casings, spent shell casings all around it.
12 Q. Did you make any inquiry of anyone there as to what that gun was
13 used for?
14 A. Yes, I did. In fact, I didn't inquire what the gun was used for,
15 but I had talked about being in Sarajevo and I laughed and said to one of
16 them, "This is what I sit under every time I hear the fire, shells coming
17 into the hospital where I live." And I was just trying to basically joke
18 with him about it. And he said that they fired this gun all the time all
19 over the city, so he doesn't specifically target the hospital, but --
20 Q. Again, who was the person you spoke to? Was that a civilian or a
21 military person?
22 A. He was actually a soldier. He told me that there is an officer
23 who is normally there when they're firing who was not there that day. The
24 officer is an artillery man.
25 Q. From that location, number 7, and from -- and the previous one we
1 mentioned, number 6, what kind of view, just very briefly, what kind of
2 view of the city of Sarajevo did you have from those places, from your
4 A. This was a fairly good view, but it was hidden to a degree.
5 Q. And what about location 6?
6 A. Location 6.
7 Q. I should have asked you that.
8 A. That was directly -- that was the river front facing the Bosnian
9 Serb front lines.
10 Q. And so --
11 A. The soldiers at that gun, that 105 --
12 Q. If I may just ask you. Just to help refresh my memory, if you
13 would: When was it that you visited location 6 that first time?
14 A. Probably April. It was after -- it was just after I visited the
15 first gun position up on the hill in Vidikovac.
16 Q. And location number 7, when did you visit that?
17 A. That was somewhere in mid-1993. I didn't start using that route
18 until, I would say, June or July of 1993.
19 Q. What about location number 8? What did you see at that location,
21 A. There again, there was a tank there. That's where the tank was
22 primarily based that I saw firing at the Holiday Inn and the Hilton -- I
23 mean, rather, the hospital. It's from that area where the statue was.
24 Q. Thank you. And did you see any other kind of weapon other than
25 the tank in that location?
1 A. No. I just saw one tank there.
2 Q. Did you have any conversation with anybody when you visited
3 that -- or when you went past that place?
4 A. Not that location. And the tank was in the always there. It was
5 there on occasion, but ...
6 Q. And on how many occasions did you pass that or go to that
7 particular place?
8 A. Two, three times a week, when I was in the area.
9 Q. Did you ever on any other occasion see any other kind of weaponry
10 at that place, mobile guns, anti-tank guns, anything like that?
11 A. Yes. There was a unit there with a mortar.
12 Q. When was that, sir?
13 A. That was back in early 1993. And again, I remember a unit packed
14 up with what looked like anti-tank rockets laying on the ground beside
15 their vehicles.
16 Q. I draw your attention now, please, to item number 9 on the map.
17 What is the significance of that entry?
18 A. This is where I took a Serb family. UNHCR had arranged for me to
19 take an EVI, extremely vulnerable individual, which in this case was an
20 entire family, to that building. It was a factory building. And when we
21 arrived, I talked to the Serbs that were there who received the family out
22 of Sarajevo. It was a Serb family we took out. And they gave me a tour
23 of the building, and it was at this point that I was shown another
24 large-calibre gun, facing the road that came down Igman Mountain, and I
25 was told by these men that they frequently shot up the trucks and the cars
1 that were trying to deliver what they call weapons deliveries to the
2 Bosnian army, and I was also offered an opportunity by them to shoot at an
3 abandoned or burnt-out truck that was on the corner, and they explained to
4 me they would shoot the driver and if the driver got past the bend, they
5 broadside the truck with this anti-aircraft fire, this heavy gunfire.
6 Q. Did you at any time go around any properties in Ilidza and have a
7 look at what was there, any fortifications or anything of that nature?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. What did you observe when you did that?
10 A. Along the Ilidza Dobrinja airport area I had extensive travels in
11 there to a nursing home where we delivered medicine. It was heavily
12 fortified there.
13 Q. The incident you said about shooting at a truck, was there
14 anything in the truck to indicate whether it was military, civilian, or
16 A. That particular truck was a burned out hulk of a vehicle that had
17 been shot. It was part of a British humanitarian convoy. The driver had
18 been killed in that attack.
19 Q. Do you think when that had occurred?
20 A. I don't remember the date. I was out of Sarajevo when that actual
21 attack occurred. It was sometime late in 1993.
22 Q. And what about location number 10?
23 A. By the monument, this is again where this tank that I saw
24 frequently would come out and fire down into the city. In fact, I saw
25 that from July 1992 all the way through the year of 1993, but again, the
1 tank wasn't always there.
2 Q. And I think you've explained that that was the Partizan memorial
3 on Vrace hill.
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. When you went into Ilidza, you did your tour around -- and in
6 Grbavica, looking around the buildings, could you just indicate -- you
7 said fortified. In what way were these buildings fortified?
8 A. They were heavily sand bagged, they had large amounts of debris,
9 in some cases trench work around them.
10 Q. Now, is that in Ilidza?
11 A. It's in Bar, this area.
12 Q. Is that near Ilidza?
13 A. Yes. It's right outside the edge of it.
14 Q. And what about Grbavica? Did you visit that area with anyone?
15 A. Grbavica?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Only with my translator, but I met the people in Grbavica. They
18 were soldiers.
19 Q. Have you ever had contact with soldiers in the area of Grbavica,
20 Serb soldiers?
21 A. Yes, frequently.
22 Q. Did they show you any of the locations in Grbavica, the Serb
23 soldiers, like apartment buildings or other locations?
24 A. Yes, they did. They took me into some apartment buildings that
25 were damaged on their front line.
1 Q. And when you were inside those buildings, what did you notice?
2 You said damage, but did you notice anything else?
3 A. They had them fortified in ways they could move in and out of the
4 rooms without being detected very easily. The sandbags were back in one
5 case -- in a couple of cases - I'm sorry - back near the back of the room
6 so that they could manoeuvre in and fire out the windows.
7 Q. And those particular apartments you were looking in, were there
8 any ways you could see out of the windows? Did they have any gaps for
9 that purpose?
10 A. There were some that were badly damaged, it looked like, by some
11 kind of an RPG rocket or something from the other side. Some had gaps,
12 some were just burned out.
13 Q. Were some fortified but with gaps left?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did you look through any of those gaps?
16 A. Yes, I did. That's where I could see across the river into Marin
17 Dvor, in that area.
18 Q. In Marin Dvor, were there any significant buildings or specific
19 junctions that stood out?
20 A. The Holiday Inn, Tito barracks. Those were easy targets and those
21 were areas where people -- the university across the river. It was very
22 easy to see where people could get shot crossing the intersections.
23 Q. Did you visit more than one buildings?
24 A. There were thousands and thousands of shell casings in the rooms.
25 There was a lot of outgoing fire from that position.
1 Q. What size of shell casings do you mean by that?
2 A. Small and equivalent to what looked like a 50-calibre. Mostly
3 Kalashnikov, that type of 9. -- 7. ...
4 Q. And how tall were the -- those buildings and how high up -- how
5 many floors up were you at the time when you looked out?
6 A. One time when I went over there, some guys were drinking and they
7 took me up to the fifth floor of one apartment which had a pretty good
8 view of one of the cross streets, but they told me it was too dangerous to
9 stay in there so they took me out in the hallway and we drank some
10 slivovitz. When we can back down they asked me if I had opiates I could
11 give them because they said that a lot of the time they were really --
12 they were high on drugs. They had access to marijuana and they asked me
13 if I wanted to smoke marijuana.
14 Q. Did you go into any other rooms in other buildings or other floors
15 of that building?
16 A. Not in that building, no.
17 Q. Did you go into any other buildings?
18 A. No, not into any other buildings. I mean, I went into buildings
19 to deliver medicines into people's apartments, yes, but not into any of
20 the front-line firing positions.
21 Q. And when, then, did you have that visit to what you've just
22 referred to as that front-line position?
23 A. That was near December of 1993, maybe as early as January. It was
24 cold. I remember that.
25 Q. So when you had these --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MR. BLAXILL: I'm so sorry.
3 Q. When you had these encounters with soldiers of the Romanija Corps,
4 did you ever put to them the issue of the fact that civilians were being
5 shot or shelled in the city of Sarajevo?
6 A. Not very often. Occasionally I'd meet someone who seemed
7 disoriented by it all. There were several young men who told me they were
8 forced into this situation. They seemed a lot easier to talk to about
9 it. A few of them told me that they didn't even fire at people. They
10 fired at the walls, because they had no choice, yet there were others
11 there that I ran into who were very hostile and made these derogatory
12 comments about the Muslims and that they would wipe out the city or kill
13 every Muslim they could see or find. In one case, on one of the upper
14 locations said, "I can even smell Muslims."
15 Q. Just excuse me for one moment.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged.
18 Q. Mr. Ashton, I would like to move on now, so I would propose
19 dealing with that exhibit issue at the conclusion, as you've indicated,
20 Your Honour, after cross-examination.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. BLAXILL:
23 Q. Mr. Ashton, I heard in the earlier part of your testimony to
24 evidence of your studying psychology; is that right?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Did you complete any particular qualification in that or just take
2 a course?
3 A. No. I had a course in introductory psychology in first year,
5 Q. Sir, you have, however, stated that you've been in several war
6 zones and you've been involved in this kind of work for a long time. From
7 your personal experience and observation, what did you see, let us say,
8 the emotional state of the civilian people you encountered in Sarajevo?
9 What were their reaction to say shelling and the sniping over the period
10 that you were there?
11 A. There was a variety of reactions. I'll try not to go into too
12 much detail, but I saw a great deal of post-traumatic stress, or traumatic
13 stress in this case. It wasn't even post. It was continuing, trauma
14 every day, especially for women, especially for children, and geriatrics.
15 People would literally stop me, or any other UN person in the street,
16 react by breaking down and begging for help. I actually saw people walk
17 out into very dangerous situations and try to get them in the vehicle and
18 they would tell me, "Who cares? We're going to die anyway." There was a
19 sense of hopelessness. In the hospital we had nurses and doctors who
20 actually had nervous breakdowns due to all the civilian casualties coming
21 in. And as time progressed, the breakdowns got worse. The length of time
22 out was very costly on the hospital staff. Some said they didn't even
23 care any more. They wished the patient would die. There were -- there
24 were just so many reactions. And when I first arrived, there was a sense
25 of: It's going to end and the Serbs will come back. A lot of people felt
1 that this wouldn't last, that it was only a temporary incident of insane
2 emotion. But as time went on and people saw more of their family and
3 friends killed, they became hardened by it and depressed by it.
4 Q. And in the course of that, did you ever have conversations with
5 people and gain from them how they felt about, say, the issue of sniping?
6 What sort of reactions did they state to you that they had to sniping the
7 effect was having on them?
8 A. I remember several geriatric people trying to get water and food
9 on their own. I would talk to some of them in the street to try and help
10 them and I would see them walk across an intersection and they would tell
11 me, "There's no sense to try to run, because eventually they're going to
12 kill me anyway." Some wouldn't even come out of their homes. We had
13 people literally dying of malnutrition because they were too terrified to
14 come out, especially in the areas of the front lines. Trg Heroje was one
15 area were several elderly people were shot trying to cross the square and
16 the bridge over to the other side to try and get food and water.
17 Families --
18 Q. Can you tell me the period during which that -- you noticed that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The death of those people through malnutrition?
21 A. 1993, especially winter of -- early winter 1993, January,
22 February, and again in -- the end of 1993.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaxill, it's close to 4.00, where we are
24 supposed to -- could you please give an indication as what the time would
25 be you still need.
1 MR. BLAXILL: I would say, in all honesty, Your Honours, I'd be
2 looking for an hour and a half. If that counters the estimate we gave in
3 the first place, then my apologies for that, but we think it is important
4 evidence and I want to be able to put it fully to you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have to decide on whether one hour and a half
6 will still be yours, because the first indication was three hours and the
7 estimate given later was four and a half hours. You're far over five and
8 a half hours now.
9 MR. BLAXILL: Yes. Thus far I hope we've been reasonably accurate
10 and I apologise that this estimate is being exceeded. I appreciate that,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll discuss it anyhow among the Judges. And what
13 for this moment? Are you at a point --
14 MR. BLAXILL: I'm at a point where I could certainly break off,
15 Your Honours. That's not a problem. And I believe my learned friend
16 Mr. Ierace would like to have a word on the issue of the time factors. So
17 perhaps yes, I would happily cease at this point for today.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we will discuss -- Mr. Ierace, you would
19 like to make -- but perhaps it's not -- our time schedule is not of major
20 interest for the witness, so I would ask the usher to lead Mr. Ashton out
21 so that we can discuss all kind of practical matters.
22 THE WITNESS: Am I through for today?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may leave the courtroom now and we'll
24 discuss some practical matters before resuming tomorrow morning. Thank
25 you very much, Mr. Ashton. I think the map has to be -- the original one
1 has to be in the hands of the Registry, so it will later be given to the
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you have the opportunity to make some
5 observations as far as the time schedules are concerned.
6 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you for that opportunity, Your Honour.
7 Since Your Honours will consider this issue, might I respectfully seek
8 that the following factors be taken into account in favour of the
9 Prosecution: Firstly we are not calling two witnesses who appear in the
10 65 ter summaries in relation to what one might call the overview phase of
11 the Prosecution case. The first of those witnesses is Kelma Muminovic.
12 She was indicated to take three quarters of an hour in chief. And the
13 second was Witness C, who was allocated one and a half hours for the
14 giving of her evidence in chief. Therefore, the Prosecution has saved two
15 and a quarter hours by not calling those two witnesses, and that's just
16 two and a quarter hours of evidence in chief.
17 Secondly, I would invite Your Honours to conclude that the
18 evidence given thus far by this witness is of a very high value and great
19 assistance to the Trial Chamber and that it is being given in a very
20 efficient manner.
21 Thirdly, it is difficult to accurately predict how long it will
22 take a witness to give their evidence. That especially applies in this
23 case where the statement was some 18 pages. And I should add: That
24 statement included the material, the evidence, rather, that the witness
25 has given as to the map.
1 Finally, the Defence, in its cross-examination, has gone over the
2 time allocation without complaint from the Prosecution, on a number of
3 occasions. And I note as well that the Appeals Chamber, in its decision
4 which was handed down shortly before Christmas, made observations in
5 relation to the time constraints which are operating on the Prosecution to
6 the effect that they are somewhat artificial. The allocation which was
7 given by the Trial Chamber -- the pre-trial Chamber, I should say, to the
8 Prosecution for the entirety of the evidence, that is, including
9 cross-examination, was approximately equal to what the Prosecution
10 anticipated evidence in chief alone would take. I don't seek at this
11 stage an overall review of the pre-trial Chamber's decision in that
12 regard. I anticipate that ultimately it will become inevitable. I'm
13 content at the moment for it to be dealt on a case-by-case basis, and in
14 relation to this witness, it's my submission that so long as he continues
15 to give his evidence efficiently and relevantly, it has a very high
16 relevance both as to sources of fire, particular incidence from a neutral
17 viewpoint as to types of weaponry and so on, including contact with the
18 accused and high-level senior subordinates, that it would be illogical to
19 not allow the Prosecution to bring out all of his relevant evidence.
20 Thank you, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Is there any need for the -- the Defence
22 would respond to this?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
24 Defence is aware of the fact that it is very difficult to predict the
25 length of the examination of a witness, including the examination-in-chief
1 and cross-examination. However, I think that we should all endeavour to
2 respect a minimum of rules and regulations, and for the benefit of all, I
3 think we should try to be faithful to what we predict. We only recently
4 received the statistical information. The Prosecution submitted this
5 information a few days ago, and they knew exactly what they were going to
6 need in terms of time and hours necessary for the examination-in-chief.
7 We are pressed for time, and it is very difficult for us to discuss these
8 matters with General Galic if all the time the examination-in-chief is
9 being extended. So I think that a certain limitation, certain
10 restrictions should be observed, and I think that the Prosecution should
11 try and finish this witness, the examination-in-chief, as soon as
12 possible. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 The Chamber will consider the issues raised. And one thing is for
15 sure: that on short notice, we'll have a more thorough discussion with the
16 parties on the time they will need for the presentation of their case,
17 because we all know that the Appeals Chamber has given a decision, has
18 left a lot of decisions to be taken by the Trial Chamber during trial, but
19 the decision of the Appeals Chamber does not mean that the original
20 schedule as it has been presented by the Prosecution could be followed.
21 So I will think it over, and we might spend a quarter of an hour, one of
22 the coming days at the beginning of next week, on discussion with the
23 parties on how to proceed. Because we experienced today that
24 sometimes - and I'm just thinking of the specific numbers on the map -
25 that sometimes you can do the same thing speeding up and dealing with four
1 or five numbers in 20 minutes where the first two took a lot of time. So
2 I think this should be reminded already in the beginning of the
3 examination of the witness and not just at the end, when we are running
4 out of time. But we'll discuss the whole schedule for the case on short
5 notice with the parties.
6 Then we'll stay now in recess until tomorrow morning, 9.30.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.09 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of
9 January, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.