1 Wednesday, 16 January 2002
2 [Open session
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom, also to
6 those who are technically assisting us; the interpreters and the technical
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
10 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed cross-examining the witness Mr.
13 Ashton as soon as he has been brought in this courtroom, unless there's
14 any other thing to be raised by the parties. Yes, there's one thing. Mr.
15 Usher, would you please wait for a moment.
16 Ms. Pilipovic --
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you, Your
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. May I remind you, Ms. Pilipovic,
20 that you almost took a time similar, already, to the Prosecution in
21 cross-examining the witness; and I think that it was more or less a
22 guideline of the Trial Chamber in its earlier decision, which was not
23 quashed on appeal, that you should not take any more time than the
24 Prosecution in examination-in-chief of the witness.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to my
1 calculations and records, the Defence has -- the examination-in-chief
2 lasted seven hours and 50 minutes. I think that the Defence has used up,
3 according to my own calculations, five and a half hours, which gives us a
4 little leeway.
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... seven hours and
6 50 minutes is not correct, but we'll come to that a little later, at the
7 first break. I think it was approximately six and a half hours, and
8 you're almost at six and a half hours, so would you please -- could you
9 give us an estimate on how much time you still need?
10 [The witness entered court]
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall do my best and complete my
12 cross-examination by the first break, which means one to one-and-a-half
13 hours more, of course with the Court's indulgence and permission, if we
14 agree that the time that the Prosecution has taken is more and is
15 approximately equal to our own calculations.
16 Let me stress that there were quite a few technical problems
17 during the cross-examination, which took up quite a lot of time, and as
18 the Defence is not able to have access to the transcript on the day in
19 which the proceedings end -- for example, I got the transcript late last
20 night of last week, of the 14th of January.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would like to urge you to see whether you can
22 do it in one more hour, and we'll come to that in far more detail on a
23 Status Conference, which will be held - and I'm addressing myself also to
24 the Prosecution at this moment - at the very end of tomorrow morning's
25 session. That means after the last break, we'll have a Status Conference,
1 and I ask the parties already to prepare, especially the Prosecution at
2 this moment, since they're presenting their case, to give it some
3 consideration as to how to speed up the presentation of the case. But
4 we'll do that tomorrow for the last three quarters of an hour.
5 You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 WITNESS: JOHN ASHTON [Resumed]
8 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]
9 Q. Mr. Ashton, good morning to you.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. On the 14th of January, 2002, we left off while discussing the map
12 that you were looking at, and I should like the usher to present the
13 witness with that map now. I think the number of the map was 344.A. It
14 is the map the witness marked in the positions asked of him.
15 Witness, I asked you to mark in the apartment blocks behind the
16 line which you said and designated as the positions of the army of
17 Republika Srpska; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, ma'am.
19 Q. You visited those lines? You told us you did.
20 A. Yes, ma'am.
21 Q. Could you tell me how often you went to that part of town?
22 A. I went to Grbavica about once every two weeks.
23 Q. In view of the fact that you said you talked to the soldiers, do
24 you happen to know whether there was any water and electricity in that
25 part of town, from what you learnt from them?
1 A. Yes. They never -- they had water and electricity when I was
2 there. Also, they had gas when the other side of the city didn't have
3 natural gas. But there were sporadic outages. That much I know from
4 talking to the pharmacist in Grbavica when I went to see her.
5 Q. When you talked to the soldiers who were up at the front lines
6 there, in talking to them, did you hear whether they were locals from that
7 part of town where the lines were? Did they live there too? Were their
8 homes in the vicinity? Were they locals?
9 A. A few of the soldiers I spoke to lived in Grbavica before the
10 conflict. A few more of them had come from across the front line, from
11 downtown Sarajevo over to Grbavica, or from the surrounding areas right
12 near the city. Most of the people were, yes, generally from that area,
13 from Sarajevo. In fact, I don't recall talking to anyone that was not
14 from Sarajevo down in Grbavica.
15 Q. Did you get to know any of them?
16 A. There were three or -- three of them that I know that would always
17 come up to me when I drove into the area and greet me. It was one of them
18 that took me on a little tour of the front line.
19 Q. Would you agree with me when I say that, at the lines there, they
20 were defending their own homes and their households, in view of the fact
21 that they were locals and lived there?
22 A. If you ask for me to agree with that, no, I can't agree with that
23 because the problem was the opposing forces were actually the ones
24 defending themselves. The amount of ammunition and weaponry I saw in
25 Republika Srpska on that front line was quite extensive as opposed to what
1 the Bosnians claim they had, and since I didn't go to that Bosnian front
2 line on that side, I don't know, but I know that several assaults were
3 made, while I was there, by the Republika Srpska towards the Bosnian side.
4 Q. You say you didn't go around the Bosnian positions. How can you
5 say that they were poorly armed, then, if you didn't visit them?
6 A. Because I didn't visit them directly opposing that position;
7 however, I did go to Trg Heroje Bosnian front lines in July, and again in
8 October, November of 1992, and in 1993, and the Bosnians never had enough
9 weapons. They traded the weapons when they left the front lines. They
10 were given ten rounds to twenty rounds of ammunition each. And that was
11 what I was told was all the way around.
12 And when I went to Dobrinja and I went down to the Stup front
13 line, it was all the same; the Bosnians had very little material, purely
14 defensive. They were told not to fire unless they were told to fire or
15 they were attacked.
16 Q. You said -- you first said that you didn't visit the Bosnian army
17 positions and now from your answer I understand that you did go to Hrasno
18 and Dobrinja and Stup, the positions there. Could you tell us about
19 Dobrinja; which were the positions of the BH army there? And do you
20 happen to know what unit, military unit, military formations, was in
21 Dobrinja itself?
22 A. In the case of Dobrinja and Stup, all of us working for the United
23 Nations or journalists, everyone had to go through the front lines to get
24 to the airport. The airport road ran through there and the road later
25 constructed by the UN at the end of the runway towards Lukavica from
1 Dobrinja was running through the front line so you had contact every day
2 with those areas. Now, I never did visit the actual line along the
3 Dobrinja front on the -- going across the airport road. I was not allowed
4 into that area; just where the crossings were.
5 Q. Would you mark Dobrinja on the map for me, please.
6 A. Yes, ma'am.
7 Q. Would you draw a circle around Dobrinja, please, and the road,
8 route you took to the airport.
9 A. Now, just to let you know, I'm not going to indicate -- this line
10 on the front side is not going to indicate the exact front line. This is
11 just the area of Dobrinja, as you requested, okay?
12 Q. In that circle, is that where Dobrinja is, the Dobrinja
14 A. Yes, ma'am.
15 Q. Would you -- could you tell us what route you took from town to
16 reach Dobrinja.
17 A. Yes, ma'am. From town -- and I'll draw the route for you, I'll
18 mark the route. Actually, it was this here. This was the corner I would
19 turn. And then the last Bosnian checkpoint was here, front line, and then
20 at the airport perimeter there was a French checkpoint, and this here was
21 considered No Man's Land.
22 Q. Where was the hospital in that part, the hospital you visited?
23 A. It was somewhere in this area here.
24 Q. How often did you go to Dobrinja, to the hospital there?
25 A. To the hospital, I only went five times.
1 Q. Did you see any soldiers in Dobrinja, armed and uniformed?
2 A. Yes, in this area here.
3 Q. You said that was the front line.
4 A. That's correct.
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: A few moments ago, Ms. Pilipovic made an observation
8 to the witness that he had earlier said that he had not visited Bosnian
9 army positions, and now -- and she made a comment to the effect that he
10 was now contradicting himself. She made that observation, then went on to
11 ask him a question. Since then, I've been checking the transcript. I've
12 found the reference; page 1558. Indeed, that's not what the witness said.
13 He specifically said that he did visit positions. I rise to my feet at
14 this stage simply to request, Mr. President, that in future, when Ms.
15 Pilipovic puts to the witness what he has earlier said and suggests that
16 he has contradicted himself, that, in fairness, she also put to the
17 witness exactly what it was that she thinks he said earlier. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, there might be some misunderstanding, as
19 far as I understood the question and the answer given by the witness. I
20 noticed that Ms. Pilipovic asked the witness whether he -- how he would
21 know about the BiH weaponry, and then he answered that he was told that
22 there was not very much. And then he said he didn't visit -- but I think
23 he said he didn't visit it on that side, which of course doesn't mean that
24 he did not visit one of the other sides where BiH army might have been.
25 But let's not pay too much attention to it. I do agree with you that
1 exact quoting is of major importance in order to avoid any
3 At the same time, I'd like to ask Ms. Pilipovic, since Dobrinja
4 has not been part of the examination-in-chief, what exactly is her case as
5 far as Dobrinja is concerned at this moment? Because that's what is
6 required for touching upon ground in cross-examination if it's not touched
7 upon by the examination-in-chief.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said that
9 he visited the hospital in Dobrinja, and the reason I asked -- what I
10 asked him was how -- was how he got to Dobrinja, to mark the route he
11 took, and how you get to Dobrinja, to the hospital, and I think he has
12 confirmed what he said, and that was why I asked him.
13 Q. When you talked to the soldiers, Witness, at those positions, the
14 ones you marked in, did you meet an officer on that occasion?
15 A. I don't ever recall meeting an officer. That doesn't mean there
16 might not have been one present, but I never recall having met one or seen
17 one there.
18 Q. The people you talked to, do you know which unit they belonged to?
19 A. No, ma'am. I only know that they identified themselves as the
20 defence corps for that neighbourhood, that community. One of them always
21 referred to himself as a member of the defence unit, local defence.
22 Q. Thank you. When you marked in the facilities behind the front
23 line held by the BH army forces, you marked in the Marsal Tito barracks
24 and its location. Do you happen to know how many barracks there are in
25 the city of Sarajevo, were in the city of Sarajevo at the time?
1 A. No, ma'am.
2 Q. In the statement you gave to the investigators of the Tribunal on
3 the 29th and 30th of October and 1st of November, 2001, on page 03041485,
4 you said, and you're talking about the area and district of the Holiday
5 Inn and Presidency, you said that in that area there were no significant
6 BH army facilities that I knew about except the front line towards Vasin
7 Han, and that the Serbs targeted the Bosnian positions from their own
8 positions -- had they targeted, they could have hit the bases easily and
9 the concentrated forces of the BH army, like the Austro-Hungarian fortress
10 and the Sedrenik area in the eastern part of town.
11 When you said that, what positions of the BH army did you have in
12 mind? What were you referring to?
13 A. That fortress, which I never went into but I was told that was a
14 Bosnian army-held position, and also the Tito barracks, the two buildings
15 in Tito barracks, I never saw those buildings targeted.
16 Q. As far as I understand what you're saying, you say that the
17 building like an Austro-Hungarian fortress, was under the control of the
18 army -- the Bosnian army, as you yourself say.
19 A. That's what I was told; I didn't go in.
20 Q. Did they tell you that previously it had been the Jajce barracks?
21 A. I can't recall hearing that expression, no, ma'am.
22 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, were you informed that the Viktor
23 Bubanj barracks existed and that it was in fact a prison, there was a
24 prison in it?
25 A. No, I didn't know. I was not informed of that. I don't even know
1 where that's located.
2 Q. As you said you were in Dobrinja, what you have just stated, that
3 is to say, your comments to your statement, you said that in the eastern
4 part of town, the BH army troops were concentrated. Can you mark in the
5 positions of the BH army in that part of town for us now, please, on the
6 map. Could you mark that in? Because you said the Austro-Hungarian fort
7 was pointed out to you.
8 A. I never visited the eastern front lines the entire time I was
9 there, and I don't know of any, as you used the term, concentrations of
10 forces. I knew they were stretched very thin around the lines throughout
11 Bosnia, but I never heard about any concentration.
12 Q. I just read out to you what you yourself stated and you confirmed
13 and said that you abide by everything that you stated in your statements.
14 At this point, I should like to show you a map -- a photograph,
15 that is; 306. I made enough copies for all parties.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Do you intend to tender this photograph into
17 evidence, Ms. Pilipovic?
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It would be
20 JUDGE ORIE: D22.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Is that the photograph that you yourself took?
23 A. Yes, ma'am.
24 Q. Is that the picture that you took at the moment you were up on the
25 roof of the Holiday Inn hotel?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I never went to the roof of the Holiday Inn; that was much too
2 dangerous. I was up on the 10th floor.
3 Q. So it was from the 10th floor that you were able to observe this
4 incident and take the picture?
5 A. Correct. I moved from the 10th to the 6th floor, up and down,
6 during the shelling, during this particular shelling incident. For safety
7 reasons, I moved up and down and out of the way.
8 Q. You testified that you had seen when the -- the moment when the
9 shell exploded.
10 A. Yes, ma'am.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it's been put to --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. It's been put to the
14 witness that he testified that he had seen the moment when the shell
15 exploded. In fact, he has not testified to that effect. However, in an
16 annexure to his statement signed on the 1st of November, he has referred
17 to this incident. I'd be grateful if my friend could make the distinction
18 between testimony and what the witness has said in his statement. Thank
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic, it would --
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In annex 2 of
22 the statement, the witness speaks about the photograph 306 on page 2 of
23 the annex, under number 10, and he says as follows: "I saw when the shell
24 fell near the car which was racing down the street," and I asked him
25 whether he saw the shell explode or fall down.
1 Q. Could the witness confirm that he stated that he saw the shell
2 explode -- that he saw the shell fall down next to the car which was
3 speeding down the street? Did you state that?
4 A. Yes. I saw the shell explode next to the car.
5 Q. Would you please point to us on the photograph the spot where the
6 shell exploded.
7 A. It's not on the photograph, ma'am. The car was moving very fast
8 down the sniper's alley there. He was going at a high rate of speed. The
9 shell landed right in front of the museum. He ended up in front of the
10 next building past the museum, going west on the road. He travelled quite
11 some distance after the car was hit and ended up in that spot there.
12 Q. Could you explain to us how it was that you failed to film the
13 location where the shell exploded, though you stated that you had seen the
14 shell explode?
15 A. I do have pictures of where that shell exploded.
16 Q. Do you have pictures of the location where the shell left traces
17 or a picture showing the shell fall down and explode?
18 A. I do have a picture of a shell exploding moments before, in the
19 same location, before that car arrived. I also photographed the area
20 where the shell was being fired from, and at a later point that day, as
21 the attack carried on into the evening and darkness arrived, you could see
22 the muzzle flash on the hill above the cemetery. Every time the mortar
23 fired, then there was a pause, and then the mortar would explode down in
24 front of the Holiday Inn, in front of the museum.
25 Q. Did you see at that moment the position from which the shell had
2 A. Yes, I did. I could not see the people there, but I could see the
3 flash of the outgoing mortar when it was fired.
4 Q. Was it a shell or a mine?
5 A. It was a mortar round.
6 Q. How far from the Holiday Inn hotel was the location where the
7 incident took place?
8 A. No more than 60 metres.
9 Q. From what side of the Holiday Inn hotel did you take the
10 photograph of this incident?
11 A. Facing Grbavica.
12 Q. How can you then explain your statement that the shell had come
13 from the top of Trebevic?
14 A. I'm afraid I don't understand your question, because -- unless
15 you're asking me which side of the Holiday Inn Trebevic is on, and that's
16 the same side as Trebevic that faces Grbavica. You can see Grbavica from
17 that side of the Holiday Inn and you can see Trebevic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if you are referring to the statement
19 of the witness, could you please quote him literally, because the Chamber
20 has not available these statements. So would you please then always
21 literally state the statement of the then prospective witness.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.
23 Q. Could you, sir, please explain to me what locations were you able
24 to see, what position were you able to see from the spot where you were
25 standing, from which you took the picture? What positions were you able
1 to observe from the place where you were at the time you took photographs
2 of this incident?
3 A. I was able to view a very wide panorama from as far down -- above
4 the sports stadium in Grbavica to the furthest point on Trebevic, where it
5 went around and you couldn't see any further back in the valley that went
6 back the other direction. The only obstacle in the way was the former, I
7 guess it was parliament building that stood across from the Holiday Inn.
8 That blocked some view, but a very small segment of the view, of Bistrik,
9 the Jewish cemetery area.
10 Q. Did you ever go to the Grbavica stadium?
11 A. No, ma'am.
12 Q. At the time you were staying at the Holiday Inn hotel, did you
13 have any knowledge as to the fact that the headquarters of the BH army
14 were located at the hotel?
15 A. No. I was in the lobby every day with the journalists, where we
16 had our briefings. We never saw anyone except an occasional soldier come
17 in to talk to the hotel manager. But we never saw any soldiers in the
18 Holiday Inn, just on a very rare occasion when they would pass through to
19 talk to the manager or talk to a journalist who was going to do an
20 interview. That's the only time I ever saw soldiers there.
21 Q. On those occasions when you interviewed soldiers or where some
22 other journalists interviewed soldiers, did you also take photographs of
23 such interviews, in particular, the interviews with members of the BH
25 A. No, I did not take any photographs of the soldiers there because
1 they were not of interest to my media coverage. However, I do want to
2 make a comment here. If you use the term "soldiers," there were United
3 Nations French and Canadian soldiers that came into the Holiday Inn and
4 out of the Holiday Inn on a regular basis, to check on us. The Canadians
5 had a food contingent there and I saw them every day, come and go. So
6 that's just to clarify the fact that there were soldiers, in the
7 terminology of "soldiers."
8 Q. I asked you about the soldiers of the BH army and whether you saw
9 them and whether you knew that the Main Staff of the BH army was located
10 there, and you told me you didn't know.
11 MR. IERACE: I object.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Would you please respond once again.
14 MR. IERACE: My friend has just made an observation that this
15 witness has said he didn't know whether the Main Staff of the Bosnian army
16 was located in the Holiday Inn. That is incorrect. The witness was asked
17 whether he had any knowledge as to the fact that the headquarters of the
18 army were located at the hotel. That appears at line 10 of page 14. He
19 said, effect, he had no knowledge. That cannot be interpreted as a denial
20 -- as him saying that he didn't know whether they were located there.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I think, literally speaking, you're
23 right, if you say, "I didn't know," that leaves open that it might have
24 been there but you were just not aware. But the answer of the witness
25 went a bit further, saying that he had no reasons to believe that it was
1 there because he never saw any soldiers. I think this was quite well
2 understood by this Chamber, and I think these are minor issues that will
3 not be unnoticed by the Chamber itself and take a lot of time. So if it's
4 not really touching upon the essence of the statement -- of course, you're
5 always free to object whenever you want, but let's try to find some
6 discipline for all of us.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will -- I hear what you say. My
8 concern was that when one reads this transcript at a later point, undue
9 weight might be given to these observations which are in the transcript,
10 but I understand what Your Honour is saying.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: You asked me that question, and I want to tell you
13 that I had access to every room in the hotel. I was able to go up,
14 because the lobby is an open atrium and you see everybody coming and going
15 in and out of the hotel. There were only three entrances in use in the
16 hotel all during the time I was there and during the time I visited. I
17 also spent time down in the Canadian section, talking to the Canadians, in
18 the basement where they were keeping their food for UNPROFOR. The
19 kitchens, the conference room and the entire front area facing Grbavica
20 where the conflict zone was, there was absolutely no soldiers in there of
21 the BiH, in answer to your question.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you
23 Q. Let me complete my question. While you were staying at the
24 Holiday Inn hotel, did you at any point in time ever see a soldier of the
25 BH army?
1 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
2 Q. How often would you see them there and how many would they be?
3 A. To my recollection, only one at a time, once a week.
4 Q. Would you tell us, please, what kind of uniform they were wearing,
5 if they were wearing uniforms. But because they were soldiers, I presume
6 that they were in uniform. So what kind of uniform did they have and what
7 kind of insignia did they have on those uniforms?
8 A. I remember seeing both camouflage and solid green uniform on those
9 soldiers. At one time I remember one sitting, talking to one of the
10 camera crews from CNN or CBS or ABC - I don't know which crew it was - and
11 he had a Bosnian symbol on his shoulder, the shield with the
12 fleurs-de-lis, and he had a hat with the same symbol on it, a beret.
13 Q. Did you see BH army soldiers wearing any other type of uniform
14 except for the one that you've just described?
15 A. Not to my knowledge. I saw the camouflage uniforms and the green
16 uniforms. I just -- I wasn't paying much attention to their uniform.
17 Q. Would you also see those soldiers in town?
18 A. Not those specific soldiers, but occasionally I'd see soldiers,
19 yes. Every now and then one would pass me in the street, but the soldiers
20 were not armed in town that I saw.
21 Q. Did you talk to those soldiers when you saw them? Were you in
22 their vicinity, since you're saying that they were not armed?
23 A. Yes. On a couple of occasions, I was stopped by two soldiers or
24 three soldiers standing together, just to ask who I was, check my
1 Q. On page 14, 15 of the transcript of the 11th of January, 2002, in
2 response to a question put to you by my colleague Mr. Blaxill, you said
3 that you had contact with the civilian protection organisation, and the
4 interpretation was on a daily basis, every day. Would you please explain
5 to us what the civilian protection is and on what basis you had this daily
6 contact with them.
7 A. Yes. I used to go up to the skating rink in Sarajevo,
8 underground, where all the food was kept. The United Nations convoys
9 would come in, and I met quite a few of the civilian protection people
10 there who were in charge of distribution of food. When I was down in
11 Hrasno district, I was approached by civilian protection many times. I
12 knew a few of the people there, who warned me that I was not supposed to
13 go any further or the military would stop me in a certain area along the
14 line if I wasn't escorted. For the most part, all I knew is they were
15 involved in the food distribution, and ...
16 Q. How were they dressed, those people, people from the civil
18 A. Those I saw were dressed in civilian clothes most of the time.
19 There were some dressed in blue overalls. At one time the government had
20 gotten some German street-cleaning uniforms. They were like coveralls,
21 winter coveralls, warm coveralls, sort of a pinkish colour. Some of the
22 people complained to me about the colour, saying it was so bright that it
23 was easy for snipers to shoot at them.
24 Q. You also told us that you had noticed them at various checkpoints
25 in town.
1 A. Yes. There were police checkpoints around the town to check
2 everybody's ID papers, and there was always one or two civilian protection
3 there at the checkpoint.
4 Q. We can therefore agree that, while in town, you would see people
5 in uniform, in police uniforms, uniforms of the civil protection
6 organisation, and olive-drab uniforms, also people wearing camouflage
8 A. Yes, ma'am.
9 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you become aware of Juka
10 Prazina, Caco? Did you ever hear about these individuals from your
11 colleagues and did you have contact with those people, Bajromovic as well,
12 for example?
13 A. Yes. In fact, I encountered Juka once in an incident at the State
14 Hospital. I knew about him. I did not see them very often. I knew that
15 other journalists had interviewed them, but I knew they were around,
16 because I heard a lot of stories about them from the local people.
17 Q. From those people, did you ever hear about the fact that they had
18 their own military formations?
19 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
20 Q. Did you also hear from them that those paramilitary formations
21 terrorised the civilian population in town?
22 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
23 Q. At this point, I would like to show you a picture. It's the
24 picture number 2391272 and 273. Actually, two photographs. That would be
25 Defence Exhibit D23.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Whilst the photograph is distributed, Ms. Pilipovic,
2 I'd like to inform you that the Prosecution took six hours, 45 minutes for
3 examination-in-chief, and that you took, until now, approximately seven
4 hours. So I would draw your attention to that fact.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Do you remember these photographs?
7 A. You have the other photograph, ma'am? Because I have two of the
9 Q. Well, yes. I provided both photographs.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Since these are two different pieces of paper, would
11 you please renumber them such that both of them have a number.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The last two digits, 1272, 1273.
13 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I have two of the exact same
14 photographs here. I don't have the numbers on the photographs, but there
15 are two different photographs in that correspondence, she is right, but
16 one of these is the wrong photograph that I'm holding.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask that the
18 originals be shown to the witness --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to have them marked?
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- So that he can answer the
22 JUDGE ORIE: They look very much like the photographs we had in
23 the bundle. Do you want them to be marked by the witness or not?
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The originals are marked 1272 and
2 1273, if the witness could confirm. Yes.
3 Q. Sir, would you please tell us when it was that you took the first
4 of these photographs that we're now looking at.
5 A. Yes. It was about 9.30, 10.00 in the morning.
6 Q. What month?
7 A. October 1992.
8 Q. In what part of the bus were you at that point?
9 A. I was in the very front, near the driver.
10 Q. What happened on that bus while you were inside of it?
11 A. We came around a turn and we turned parallel towards Grbavica. I
12 marked that on an earlier map, as a matter of fact, when we discussed this
13 incident. The bullet came down through the window on the right side of
14 the bus, and angled down towards the bottom underneath the windows on the
15 left side of the bus. The French UNPROFOR determined that it had been
16 fired from above the area of the sports stadium in Grbavica. They checked
17 the bus and they checked the angle of the trajectory of the bullet.
18 Q. Did you see the spot where the bullet struck, and did the glass
20 A. Yes, it did.
21 Q. Would you please show us on the photograph the place where the
22 glass was broken.
23 A. It was near the back of the bus, in here.
24 Q. Sir, would you please explain to us how it was that you did not
25 take a picture of the exact spot in the bus where the glass was broken.
1 A. Because the bus stopped and everybody got off and ran for cover,
2 including myself. I didn't -- the bus was still out in view of the sniper
3 position. I didn't want to go back into the bus. In fact, I went
4 straight to the UNHCR office, which was only a few blocks away, and
5 reported it, and asked for the French, if they could come.
6 Q. Would you please have a look at the second photograph now, 1273,
7 please, the original that you have in front of you. Could you explain why
8 these people in the bus are laughing? Why is that man standing up there
9 smiling, as far as I'm able to see?
10 A. There was a scream from one woman. I recall her yelling out and I
11 heard people saying things under their breath in anger. I don't know if
12 that's laughter or if that's an expression of excruciation or anger. I
13 don't know. There were some people who just stood there, even when the
14 bullet came through, they didn't even bother to more.
15 Q. At that point, did the shot hit the window, the glass, and was it
16 shattered at the moment they all crouched down? Why were they -- why did
17 they react in this way?
18 A. Well, when we all heard the crash, we -- I jolted, and I saw the
19 people go down. One gentleman who was on the bus, standing next to me,
20 said to me afterwards, before I had left the scene - who spoke English -
21 he said that, "It doesn't matter if you duck, because the bullets go right
22 through it anyway."
23 Q. Did you take the photograph of the bus with the shattered glass
24 after that?
25 A. No, I did not. The French did, though. They have it in their
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,
4 I have one more question for this witness, and that would conclude my
5 cross-examination, and I would be respecting the time set by you.
6 Q. Witness, while you were in Sarajevo, you said that you had
7 contacts with the HVO soldiers, and you said that you had contact with
8 soldiers who were members of the army of the Bosnian Serbs and that you
9 would see soldiers belonging to the BH army. Will you agree with me when
10 I say that if those people used weapons, and if during the time that you
11 spent in Sarajevo they used those weapons, were all the people living in
12 that region traumatised and afraid? Did they all suffer from trauma and
14 A. Yes, ma'am, for a variety of reasons, they did suffer.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're standing up. What would
17 you like to inform the Court about?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I simply took
19 note of the fact that the Prosecution was very specific about semantics.
20 Quite simply, the witness said something. I don't think it was what he
21 meant to say. He stated that literally a mortar round exploded, in
22 French, [French phrase], but we -- to specify, Mr. President, it was on
23 page 12, line 22. What I'm reading in English, and I quote, for Mr.
24 Ierace: "[In English] Down in front of the Holiday Inn." And Mr. Ierace
25 will correct me if I'm wrong, was the shell. [In English] But I'm not
1 quite sure of that, of course.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Would this create any further misunderstanding or
3 would this -- could this cause any confusion? If not, I'd just like to
5 MR. IERACE: From my perspective, Mr. President, it doesn't cause
6 any confusion at all.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think the court is not confused by it either, so
8 thank you very much for your observation, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 The Defence has concluded the cross-examination of Mr. Ashton. Is
10 there any need of re-examination? Mr. Blaxill, please proceed.
11 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged to you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
12 Yes, indeed, we do have about four or five points and I hate to say we
13 guarantee, but I almost guarantee we should conclude before the break.
14 Re-examined by Mr. Blaxill:
15 Q. Mr. Ashton, firstly I would like to ask you this: My learned
16 friend suggested to you had you ever heard Galic give orders about, I
17 think it was the iron cross. My question is this: Did you at any time
18 see or hear General Galic give or appear to give orders to anybody or
19 about anything?
20 A. Did I see him directly give orders?
21 Q. Yes, sir.
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. Did you -- a little later, you made reference in a question about
24 sniper rounds of 7.62 millimetres to a maximum range of 1.000 metres. By
25 that, sir, what exactly did you mean? Did you mean that was the maximum
1 effective accurate range or the maximum distance a bullet could physically
2 travel of such a calibre?
3 A. Well, a bullet can travel way longer than that from that calibre.
4 That was the maximum effective range with a very good marksman, which
5 there were plenty around.
6 Q. Just a few minutes ago, Mr. Ashton, you were referring to the
7 incident with the motor car that was in the picture that my learned friend
8 put to you. You identified the source of fire. Can you say what happened
9 to the occupant or occupants of that vehicle?
10 A. Yes, and in that -- in this explanation, I will explain something
11 that was just brought up. When I refer to mortar round, I refer to a
12 mortar shell. When I refer to an artillery round, I refer to an artillery
13 shell. The mortar round - mortar shell, for clarification - landed next
14 to that vehicle. The vehicle went out of control, crashed into the
15 tracks. There was a woman in the passenger side of the vehicle and there
16 was a man in the car, and he desperately tried to get her out, and another
17 shell landed back towards the museum, directly in front of the Holiday
18 Inn, and he ran to a building across the street, scrambled underneath sort
19 of a little basement overhang there. I have a picture of that. He hid
20 there for some time as the shells continued into the dark. He could not
21 get out of that position. I later learned that the woman was killed.
22 Q. Did you have any idea of the age of the person, the lady?
23 A. She seemed to be a young woman, but I wasn't close enough,
24 actually, to -- there was a lot of smoke in the car too.
25 Q. Can you -- and can you confirm the date when that happened?
1 A. Yes. That was around July 15th.
2 Q. Of which year?
3 A. 1992.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. You also referred, in the course of
5 cross-examination, to an incident on the 14th of July. By that I refer to
6 the incident near the Holiday Inn, where the old lady froze in the street,
7 and she had a younger woman with her. You said you tried to render
8 assistance. In answer to my learned friend, you stated you did not
9 photograph that incident, but did you make any kind of pictorial or other
10 description of that? Did you record it in some way, that location?
11 A. Yes, sir, I do have photographs of that location.
12 Q. Did you, after that incident, make any other kind of recordings of
13 it? Did you in any way write about it, sketch it, or something of that
15 A. Yes, sir. When I went up to the Serb side one time, I found from
16 quite a different position, even closer, the day I was there, the day they
17 fired into the street, that was the street they were firing into from that
18 Serb position.
19 Q. Yes. I'm just wondering if, on the day of the incident, you made
20 any particular record in your view, say you refer to your journal. Did
21 you make any particular record of it?
22 A. Yes, I did. I made --
23 Q. What did you record as such that day?
24 A. That I had gone out the front -- now, this is from recollection.
25 Q. Sorry if I interrupt you.
1 A. I'm trying to get as close as I can to --
2 Q. If I may interrupt you. I'm going to ask you not to try and
3 retell the story, but did you write about it or did you do a sketch or
4 anything like that?
5 A. Yes, I did. I wrote about it. I wrote about the girl and the
6 woman and that the woman was fired upon and I went out in the street to
7 bring her back in and I continue on about the Canadians coming. It's all
8 in the journal, it's all there.
9 Q. Very well. Thank you. There's just one last thing that I would
10 like to ask you, Mr. Ashton. This is in reference to the photograph you
11 stated you took in September and was referred to in evidence in connection
12 with the issue of the "iron cross." That was in fact, in your own
13 exhibit, photo number 1328. In fact, Mr. Ashton -- sorry.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 MR. BLAXILL: On reflection, I'm not so sure that the question we
16 were pondering will add anything significant, and in the interests of
17 saving time as well, I think we can say that that concludes the
18 re-examination. I'm obliged, Your Honours.
19 The only thing I would now mention is the issue of tendering the
20 relevant exhibits from the evidence of Mr. Ashton.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Blaxill. As far as I'm aware of, we have at
22 this moment documents that I would guess the parties would tender into
23 evidence. First of all, the black-and-white map 3644. That's the big
25 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, Your Honour. We would suggest that that be
1 entered into evidence as 3644.JA, to follow the previous method we used
2 with that map.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So if there's no objection against that, it's
4 admitted into evidence. Then --
5 MR. BLAXILL: Sorry, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I think we have the bundle of photos,
8 MR. BLAXILL: That is correct, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Bundle of photos. No objection. It's admitted in
10 evidence. Then we have a marked map with number P3645 and 45.1.
11 MR. BLAXILL: For the translation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: For the translation. That's the marked map, the
13 smaller one.
14 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No objection. So it's admitted into evidence. Then
16 as far as the Defence is concerned, because I think these were all the
17 Prosecution exhibits.
18 MR. BLAXILL: Indeed. That's all I invite you to admit.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then as far as the Defence is concerned, we have a
20 statement of Roy Thomas, which I understand is tendered into evidence as
21 Defence Exhibit D12.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to that exhibit, I object
23 to that tender for this reason: That the only part of it which was
24 relevant to these proceedings was one, I think perhaps two sentences,
25 which in any event were read onto the record. If, Mr. President, you
1 think that nevertheless there should be a hard copy of those sentences,
2 then that is what should be tendered into evidence, that is, those
3 sentences. At the very most, the page, but certainly not the whole
5 JUDGE ORIE: The whole statement. Would you please respond, Mr.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
8 Defence is ready, if necessary, to photocopy, re-photocopy and
9 re-re-photocopy all the pages of the dossier, of the file, but is it
10 necessary? We have the relevant pages. The witness recognised his
11 signature on the photographs. We have the dates because Mr. Ierace made a
12 passionate response on the chronology of it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I just ask you -- no, Mr.
14 Piletta-Zanin. The question is whether the Defence insists on tendering
15 into evidence the statement of Roy Thomas or not or can just limit itself
16 to one page. That's the question.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My answer is yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... or you will
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The answer is yes, Mr.
21 President, to the question you have just asked. Our answer is yes, we
22 will be tendering the entire statement.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please respond to the objection. The
24 objection was that only a few lines, or at most one page, was relevant,
25 and the other parts should not be submitted to the Court.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am of the
2 opinion that everything should be tendered with respect to the context so
3 that the Trial Chamber has the whole context to take into consideration.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We will decide on this issue after the break. We
5 heard the objection. We'll take a decision on that.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have the photos to be tendered into evidence,
8 I would say the photos of tanks, D13 up until D21, 21 included. Any
9 objections? So that's admitted into evidence.
10 And then we have photo D22, which is the photo of, I would say,
11 the smoking car, if you would allow me this characterisation. That's D22.
12 No objection. It's admitted.
13 And then we have the last two photographs, of which I asked the
14 Defence on whether they would like to have any markings on it. They said
15 they would, but I did not notice any markings --
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] D23, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but these are the same photographs, as I see, as
18 those that are in the bundle, so they are admitted into evidence as photos
19 already, and since no markings are made, I would like to hear from the
20 Defence what the reason is that they want a black and white photocopy of
21 those photos already being admitted as exhibits will be tendered into
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's all right.
24 Thank you. That's okay.
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry. I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 have to change again to the English. Let me just read your answer.
2 So I do understand that they are not tendered into evidence and we
3 rely on the statement of the witness as he has given on the coloured
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] May I just, with your permission,
8 make one more proposal for tendering into evidence?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence would like to propose
11 that the black-and-white map with the positions marked be tendered into
12 evidence as a Defence exhibit. It would be D24. And the Defence would
13 also like -- so that is the map with the positions marked --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think that --
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- in response to questions from
16 the Defence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: But I think both the markings of the witness, upon
18 questions of the Prosecution and questions of the Defence, are marked on
19 the same map, and they have been admitted as Exhibit 3644.JA. So I don't
20 think that there's any need of admitting the same map with the same
21 markings on it again.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. I
23 merely wished you to confirm that.
24 The Defence has one more proposal. With your permission, the
25 Defence would propose that all three statements given by Mr. Ashton to the
1 investigators of the Prosecution be tendered under one number as a Defence
2 exhibit, including both annexes, which were supplied with the statement to
3 the Defence. The Defence apologises if photocopies are necessary, and the
4 Defence will, in the course of the day, hand in a sufficient number of
5 photocopied copies of this statement to the Registry. And I should ask
6 that they be numbered with a single number. I think that that number
7 would be D24, that that's the next number. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from any objections, I first would like to
9 note that it would not be D24, but it would be D23, the first number after
10 D22, because the other photos have not been tendered into evidence. But
11 do I understand there are objections?
12 MR. BLAXILL: Indeed so, Your Honour. Essentially, my learned
13 friend does not indicate precisely the reasons why she would wish to have
14 the entirety of these statements, which means any additional photographs
15 that have not been exhibited and so forth, placed before the Court. The
16 evidence has been covered, and really and truly, the only certain specific
17 extracts have been put to Mr. Ashton in cross-examination. Rather like my
18 learned friend's observations regarding the other statement, I don't think
19 it justifies a wholesale submission in evidence of all the statements of a
20 witness if vast tracts of that have not in any way been put to the witness
21 in the course of cross-examination, and I therefore ask, as a matter of
22 relevance, that they should stick to the admission of -- or rather, submit
23 to Your Honours to admit only those portions that are relevant to the
24 cross-examination that have been raised in this case.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence sees the relevance of
2 these exhibits and would like to tender them as Defence exhibits in order
3 to test the credibility of the witness, who has testified before this
4 Tribunal over the past few days.
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... the tendering
6 into evidence, in view of the objections, after the break. We will have,
7 then, perhaps, the break a bit earlier than usual, and I would like to
8 propose to you that we start again at 10.50, and we'll adjourn until then,
9 after the witness has been --
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: 10.55.
12 Mr. Ashton, I'd like to thank you for coming here as a witness and
13 informing the Court about things that happened in Sarajevo upon questioning
14 of the examination of the parties. I still have to ask whether my
15 colleagues have any additional questions to put to the witness.
16 There are no additional questions, so, Mr. Usher, would you please
17 guide Mr. Ashton out of the Court.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps we're almost at 10.30, so let's have a
20 break until 11.00. We'll be adjourned until 11.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber still had to decide on the tendering into
24 evidence of both the statement of Roy Thomas and the statements given to
25 the Prosecutors' investigators by Mr. Ashton. Our decision is that these
1 statements may be tendered into evidence, but only to the extent that they
2 are relating to the incidents or the specific subject touched upon during
3 cross-examination. So not the whole statements, not just one page,
4 because the subject might go from one page to the other, so that we can
5 have a look at the context of this statement as far as the incident or the
6 subject is concerned, but anything else, you don't have to delete it, but
7 is not admitted into evidence and we'll pay only attention to those parts
8 of this evidence which touches upon the issues dealt with during
9 cross-examination. So it's not just the lines, a bit more, a bit of
10 context, but not the whole statement.
11 I think there are no other decisions to be taken at this moment.
12 This would mean that the Prosecution may call the next witness. And as
13 far as I understand from your list, it would be Alija Mulaomerovic. Is
14 that correct?
15 MR. IERACE: That is correct, Mr. President, and that witness will
16 be taken by Chester Stamp, who is two on my right. Present also at the
17 bar table for the Prosecution at this moment is Manoj Sachdeva. He will
18 assist us at the bar table. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Just one other issue. There
20 are no exhibits, no documents which will be shown to the witness. Is that
22 MR. IERACE: There is a map, that is the standard Sarajevo map.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Standard Sarajevo map.
24 MR. IERACE: Which will be shown to the witness. Mr. President,
25 whilst I'm on my feet, I go back briefly to the decision that you have
1 just handed down.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. IERACE: The earlier statements refer to photographs which are
4 not before the Chamber. There is an annexure to one of the statements
5 which refers to each of a number of photographs. They were not included
6 in the witness's final evidence because they either predate or post-date
7 the indictment period. But since the decision is to allow the statements
8 into evidence, Your Honours may wish to have the annexures and the
9 photographs to which the annexures refer. If, following some
10 deliberation, you could let us know that, then we will provide copies of
11 those photographs. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd first like to wait and see what parts of
13 the statements the Defence will come up as being -- as touching upon the
14 issues dealt with during cross-examination, and if it would be necessary
15 for the understanding of the context to see the photographs. At this
16 moment, I do not see yet any necessity, but just convince this Chamber and
17 we'll give a decision on that. But for the time being, I would not insist
18 on having any photographs with it, but we'll first see what the
19 Prosecution will offer to this Chamber to be tendered into evidence, and
20 then we'll have a look at whether this is really limited by context, and
21 then we'll give a decision and we'll also see that any photographs are
22 needed or not.
23 May I also ask the parties whether -- and I'm now just looking a
24 bit further than just the witness to be called -- that on the witness
25 Hajir -- I have difficulties pronouncing it. Hajir, Sehbajraktarevic,
1 Jusufovic, Witness B, Aernout Van Lynden and Morten Hvall - I just go
2 to number 10 - are there any problems at this moment as far as disclosure
3 of documents, translations, whatsoever there is? I would like to be
4 informed about that. But I just wanted to remind you that I expect the
5 parties to communicate well in advance to inform the Court if there are
6 any problems. If this Court is not informed there are problems, we would
7 not like to be confronted with it at the very moment of the witness being
8 in court.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to Witness D --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. IERACE: -- a letter was forwarded by the Prosecution to the
12 Defence yesterday, informing the Defence that there is an additional
13 exhibit to be tendered through that witness, namely, a segment of the
14 video which was shown during my opening. That's the only change, I think,
15 to the --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There will be no problem as far as disclosure
17 of this video is concerned. So then, Mr. Ierace, the Prosecution may call
18 its next witness.
19 Mr. Usher -- yes, Mr. Stamp.
20 MR. STAMP: May it please you, Your Honours. The next witness the
21 Prosecution intends to call is Alija Mulaomerovic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mulaomerovic, can you hear me in a language you
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you very well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome to this courtroom. You are called as a
3 witness by the Prosecution. But before testifying, the Rules require you
4 to make a solemn declaration. The text of this declaration will be handed
5 out to you by the usher, and would you then please make the declaration.
6 WITNESS: ALIJA MULAOMEROVIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mulaomerovic. Mr. Stamp will examine
11 you, so please be seated.
12 Mr. Stamp, you may proceed.
13 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President
14 Examined by Mr. Stamp:
15 Q. Good morning, Doctor.
16 A. Good morning. Good morning to you, sir.
17 Q. Could you please state your full name.
18 A. My name is Alija Mulaomerovic. I'm from Sarajevo.
19 Q. And what are your professional qualifications, please?
20 A. I'm a physician by profession. I specialised in hygiene and
21 organisation of health care. I am the director of Institute for
22 Emergency, Medical Emergency Service in Sarajevo. I had that function
23 during the war and I still occupy the same function.
24 Q. For how long have you been director of the emergency medical
25 services in Sarajevo?
1 A. I've been the director of the emergency medical services since
2 1987, without interruption.
3 Q. And you said you were director during the war. This is the war of
4 1992 to 1995?
5 A. That is correct. Throughout the war, yes.
6 Q. Now, immediately before the war, can you tell us what were the
7 services provided by the Emergency Medical Centre, briefly, please.
8 A. The emergency medical service was organised for the benefit of the
9 population of Sarajevo, including all the six of its municipalities which
10 it had at the time and which were covered by our centre in relation to the
11 overall number of ten municipalities that were considered to be the part
12 of the city of Sarajevo.
13 Q. What type of medical services did it provide to the population of
15 A. The emergency medical service is in charge of providing medical
16 protection and care to the individuals whose life or health are threatened
17 or in cases where severe damage to health is likely to occur. That is, it
18 provides medical help to all persons who are injured or wounded.
19 Q. Now, where was the Emergency Medical Centre located?
20 A. The Emergency Medical Centre was located at the same location
21 where it is today, that is, in Darovalaca krvi Street, number 14. The
22 name of the street actually today is Kolodvorska, but the number is the
23 same, number 14. That is the main building of the emergency medical
24 service. We had four satellite stations belonging to our service, which
25 were located in the municipalities of Vogosca, Ilidza, Novi Grad,
1 Dobrinja, and the airport.
2 Q. Now, in the delivery of the medical services, did the Emergency
3 Medical Centre have or use any particular equipment or vehicles?
4 A. In the course of its work, the Emergency Medical Centre uses
5 ambulances which are equipped with the relevant equipment to provide
6 emergency care during the transport itself and also on the premises
7 belonging to the Emergency Medical Centre.
8 Q. And as director, what were your responsibilities?
9 A. As the director, I am in charge for the overall organisation and
10 the functioning of various departments of the service, including all
11 matters relating to the staff and the premises themselves and the function
12 that the medical centre is supposed to provide.
13 Q. Now, at the outbreak of hostilities in 1992, did you make any
14 change in respect of the organisation of the centre?
15 A. Yes, we did. At the beginning of the war, we withdrew our staff
16 from the outstations because they were under a blockade, and we
17 centralised the work of the emergency service to the main building. That
18 is, our staff was centralised and started working in the central building.
19 Q. What do you mean by a "blockade"?
20 A. What I mean by a "blockade" is the fact that it was impossible to
21 reach those outstations because they were under the control of Serb
22 forces. I am referring to the outstations in Ilidza, Dobrinja, and
23 Vogosca. It was physically impossible to reach those outstations,
24 including the airport station, which was also cut off.
25 Q. Now, at the outbreak of the conflict in 1992, did your staff
1 situation remain the same?
2 A. At the very beginning, most of the staff remained. However, there
3 was a number of employees of Serb ethnicity that left the service. That
4 is, they stopped coming from work as of the 4th of April. And in the
5 course of the month of April, and later on in May, the number of staff was
6 significantly -- that number of staff was significantly reduced.
7 Q. During the conflict, what was the ethnic composition of your
9 A. The composition of my staff was multi-ethnic at all times. At the
10 beginning of the conflict, our employees were members of all ethnic
11 communities. I wouldn't be able to tell you the percentage but I'm sure
12 that it duly reflected the ethnic composition of the population of the
13 town of Sarajevo. I'm sure about that. All three ethnic communities were
14 represented; Croats, Serbs, and Muslims, as they were referred to in those
15 days. However, in the course of the conflict, the number of employees of
16 Serb ethnicity was significantly reduced because, in most of the cases,
17 they left the emergency medical service.
18 Q. In respect to the organisation of the functions of the Emergency
19 Medical Centre, did you take any particular steps in respect to the ethnic
20 composition of the staff?
21 A. We did. At the beginning, our emergency teams, with ambulances,
22 were usually stopped at the barricades and checkpoints, and that is the
23 reason why, in organisational terms, we endeavoured to have multi-ethnic
24 teams, to the extent it was possible. So the team would consist of a
25 physician, a paramedic, and the driver, and we tried to see to it that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 they were members of different ethnicities. So it was one way of having
2 some sort of safeguards, that they would provide some kind of security to
3 one another because of the barricades that were erected at the outbreak of
4 the war by the Serbs.
5 Q. Could you briefly describe the Emergency Medical Centre premises
6 at Kolodvorska Street.
7 A. It is the central facility of the centre. It had several clinics
8 for general medical intervention, emergency type of medical intervention.
9 Then we had a clinic for surgical intervention and trauma, pediatric
10 clinics, also for emergency cases, and we also have a diagnostic service,
11 which included a laboratory, x-rays, and also a technical department and
12 workshop, which also included a garage. There was also the administrative
13 and legal department there as well.
14 Q. Could you describe the building or buildings at Kolodvorska
16 A. The building itself is quite large. Its surface area is about
17 3.000 square metres. Most of it is situated on the ground floor. That
18 is, all medical facilities are on the ground floor, the reason for that
19 being the emergency nature of the work, so that the vehicles could access
20 all relevant departments.
21 In the basement we had a garage, together with car workshops,
22 vehicle maintenance workshops, and a car wash service as well, and some
23 sanitary facilities that were located both on the ground floor and in the
25 As for the upper floors, we had the administrative, legal, and
1 finance departments situated on the first floor.
2 Q. And did this building have any particular markings on it?
3 A. The building was visibly marked. The name of the service was
4 written in visible letters on the roof of the building. The "Institute
5 for Emergency Medical Services" was written on the building, and it was
6 duly marked with the international sign of the Red Cross, of the same
7 dimensions. It was quite visible, and the cross itself was one metre
9 Each of the entrances was also marked with the name of the
10 relevant department written on it so it was visible from the outside. One
11 could tell what each department stood for.
12 The ground floor has a glassed-in area, so it was not protected
13 very well except for the portions that were built in concrete walls.
14 The roof was covered in cupolas, in domes, so that the natural
15 light, daily light, could come in.
16 Q. The markings of the International Red Cross and the name of the
17 Emergency Medical Centre which were on the building, on the roof of the
18 building, you said were visible. From about how far could these markings
19 be seen?
20 A. I think that they could be seen from a distance of up to one
21 kilometre, I think, especially during the night, because they were in
22 neon. The markings were in neon light.
23 Q. And you operated ambulances. Could you describe these ambulances,
24 please. Did they have any particular markings?
25 A. Our vehicles were Citroen C-25 type vehicles, which is a large
1 ambulance, and then the Volkswagen C-15 vehicles were used, and then I
2 think we had two Mercedes as well. But all of these vehicles were visibly
3 marked with the name of the firm. It said SOUR UNHCR, the University
4 Medical Centre. We were part of that, and the work organisations included
5 the clinics. And under that, it said OUR, Organisation of Associated
6 labour, and the Institute for Medical Emergency -- for the Medical
7 Emergency Service Sarajevo. That's what it said on the vehicles. And
8 then it said "Ambulance," with the Red Cross emblem on the sides of the
9 vehicle and at the back.
10 Q. Now, when the war started in early 1992, was the building
12 A. The building was hit several times during the war. I can't tell
13 you when it was hit first, but it is common knowledge that the building
14 was hit several times directly. It received direct hits at the entrance
15 to the building and the courtyard and part of the street outside the
16 building, and the roof of the building as well, because it's a flat roof,
17 a concrete flat roof.
18 Q. When you say "hit," what do you mean? You said the building was
19 hit several times. Hit by what?
20 A. It was hit with artillery projectiles from artillery weapons and
21 infantry weapons, artillery shells and infantry weapons, as far as I'm
22 able to explain this technically. We referred to them as infantry
23 projectiles and grenades or artillery shells. That's how we referred to
25 Q. What do you mean by "infantry weapons"?
1 A. Well, I mean small arms; snipers, rifles, that kind of thing,
2 weapons which are able to shoot individually, individual bullets, and a
3 burst of gunfire as well.
4 Q. Now, did this shelling and sniping affect your staff when the
5 conflict began?
6 A. Of course it did. It was a direct threat to their security and
7 the safety of the staff, because they were directly exposed to danger.
8 Their lives were directly threatened and they had to do their job. They
9 had to give first aid and emergency service to the injured and wounded
10 citizens, whereas they were placing their life at risk as well. So their
11 lives were at risk and the lives of their patients were at risk while the
12 shelling was going on and while there was gunfire from the small arms and
13 other weapons.
14 Q. Did you suffer any casualties among your staff in the early period
15 of the war?
16 A. Unfortunately, yes, we did have casualties. Some were wounded and
17 some were also killed.
18 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to turn your attention to the period
19 beginning August of -- I beg your pardon. September of 1992 to August of
20 1994. In that period, did the shelling of the hospital stop or did it
22 A. From September 1992 onwards, this just meant a continuation of
23 what had been going on. Things continued with the same intensity in the
24 Kolodvarska Street. It was the same for the personnel and for the
25 ambulances. They came under fire. And on the 17th of September, in fact,
1 part of a shell hit a driver, some shrapnel hit a driver. His name was
2 Zika Lazic, the driver's name, and it was in the street outside the
3 emergency service, and it was the regional service that was located within
4 our own building.
5 On the 19th of September, a sniper hit another staff member, whose
6 name was Nurko Milic, and he was hit when he was taking a patient inside
7 on a stretcher. He was transporting the patient from the ambulance into
8 the building, into the emergency service building. He was hit at the
9 entrance to the building. And he remained a serious invalid. One of his
10 kidneys had to be amputated. He is retired now as a serious invalid.
11 Q. The first incident you spoke of, of the 17th of September, when a
12 shell hit the driver, what was the driver doing at the time?
13 A. I think he was a pedestrian at the time. He was walking towards
14 the building to go to his office, and I think he was hit by a shell from a
15 close distance. And we had to perform an amputation on one of his legs.
16 He was taken care of in the emergency service, and thanks to the fact that
17 he was close by at the time, we were able to save his life. Otherwise, he
18 would probably have died. Today he is also a serious invalid with just
19 one leg. The other was amputated.
20 Q. Were there any military facilities inside the Emergency Medical
21 Centre compound?
22 A. No, there weren't any military facilities. The institute is a
23 civilian health facility. It was like that before the war, during the
24 war, and today as well. It is a civilian facility.
25 Q. Was it well known in Sarajevo that it was a civilian medical
1 facility prior to the war and during the war?
2 A. I think that everybody in Sarajevo and even children knew that it
3 was a civilian medical facility, because the citizens would set a portion
4 of their personal incomes to finance the building. So in fact it was
5 through citizens' contributions that the medical emergency centre was
6 built in the first place, to cater to emergency cases. It was built in
7 1980 and put into operation that same year. So it's a relatively new
9 Q. Now, can you say where the sniping at the hospital and its
10 environs came from?
11 A. We think it came from the area where the former police school at
12 Vrace was located. That's one part. And the other section was the
13 Ozrenska Vrbovska street area, Zagorska street or Hrasno Brdo.
14 Q. These two areas that you speak of, under which party's control
15 were they?
16 A. Under the control of the Serb forces.
17 Q. And the shelling of the hospital?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Ms. Pilipovic.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has an
20 objection. The question asked of the witness was about the two parts of
21 town, two sections of town. I think that my colleague ought to be more
22 specific and precise in asking his question, what he's actually referring
23 to, if I understood him correctly. The witness didn't speak about
24 sections of town; he spoke about the police school and Ozrenska Street and
25 Hrasno Brdo. Perhaps my learned colleague could rephrase his question and
1 ask what part of town those facilities are. More precision, please,
2 that's my basic objection.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first see what has been said. The
4 question put by Mr. Stamp was: "Now can you say where the sniping at the
5 hospital and its environs came from?" The answer was: "We think it came
6 from the area where the former police school at Vrace was located. That's
7 one part. And the other one was the..." then it doesn't mention the name
8 of the street "... area of Zagorska street or Hrasno Brdo. "
9 The next question was: "These two areas--"
10 MR. STAMP: Areas.
11 JUDGE ORIE: "These two areas that you speak of, under which
12 party's control were they?" I think the witness has spoken about areas,
13 one area, Vrace area, and the other one the Hrasno Brdo. I do understand
14 that that's an area as well, but if I'm mistaken, please, Mr.
15 Mulaomerovic, correct me.
16 A. Well, the Vrace area is a well-known district, quarter of the
17 town. That's where it is and that's where the police academy or school
19 JUDGE ORIE: It's Hrasno Brdo also an area of town?
20 A. Hrasno Brdo too is a quarter of the town, but the most precise
21 location would be to say that it was Ozrenska and Vrbovska and Zagorska
22 street. Perhaps it doesn't belong to Hrasno Brdo actually, but those are
23 the streets. I know the streets, Ozrenska, Vrbovska, and Zagorska. Those
24 were the actual streets. Whether it actually belongs to Hrasno Brdo I
25 can't really say.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Keeping this in mind, Mr. Stamp, would you
2 please proceed and, if necessary, rephrase your question. But I think the
3 objection as such is denied, but let's try to avoid any disputes on minor
5 MR. STAMP: I'm grateful, Mr. President.
6 Q. In respect to the shelling of the hospital of the Emergency
7 Medical Centre and its environs, can you say where the shelling originated
9 A. I can't give you a location for the shelling. The shelling came
10 from all directions, I think, so it's difficult to say. All we know is
11 that there was shelling from somewhere, and we also know that we were
12 subject to direct fire and that our lives were in danger.
13 Q. During the period September 1992 to August 1994, was a building
14 damaged as a result of the shelling?
15 A. Yes, it was. I said we had a flat roof. The emergency service
16 had a flat roof, and it was insulated with hydro insulation, and the
17 results of the shells that exploded on it was that the roof was damaged so
18 that when it rained, the water would flow directly inside the building.
19 Q. During this period, did you undertake any repairs of the building?
20 A. We improvised, as far as we could, the hydro insulation, but all
21 the glass surfaces around the building were destroyed. But we did do
22 repairs and we did them in the course of the night. We came by some
23 bituminka tar and closed the holes, the apertures that had been formed on
24 the roof, to prevent the water from coming in and to protect the building
25 so that we could continue our work, as far as we were able, and to keep
1 the rooms dry. We closed off the glass partitions using wooden planks or
3 Q. Please tell the Court why you did these repairs at night.
4 A. That was the only time we could do the repairs, when it was dark,
5 when we were under cover of darkness, when the night protected us;
6 otherwise, we would be a sitting target to firing from artillery weapons
7 and small arms. We would have been quite visible up there. So that was
8 the only way we could repair the building. It was impossible to do that
9 during the day, so we had to use the night and do it under cover of
11 Q. Can you recall if there were any particular types of shells which
12 struck the building?
13 A. Well, we used to refer to them as shells from mortars, mortar
14 shells. That's what we used to call them. And then the big ones, I
15 really don't know what they were called, those big ones. If I say that
16 they were shells, artillery shells, with a diameter of 40 -- about 40
17 millimetres and then there would be larger ones too, and there was a
18 special one that -- I think that would have been a sort of tracer which
19 hit the building on the 4th of December, 1992. The tracer bullets -- so
20 tracer bullets were used, and then these guided shells as well.
21 Q. What do you mean by "guided shells"?
22 A. Well, judging by the remains of those shells, what it looked like
23 was a long spiral. There was a long spiral, wire spiral, and the action
24 of it is continuous. That's how they explained it to us laymen. They
25 would be able to target a certain -- to aim at a certain target. So in
1 some places, we saw the remains of this coil or spiral wire. And that
2 particular shell hit the gynaecological department, gynaecological ward,
3 and destroyed the whole area. Luckily, at that particular time, nobody
4 was in the room so there were no human casualties. It was just a great
5 psychological shock to everyone.
6 Q. During the period September 1992 to August 1994, under what
7 conditions did the ambulances operate?
8 A. From September 1992, and in 1993, the first half of 1993, that was
9 the most difficult period, the worst period for us. We found it very
10 difficult to work under the conditions that prevailed during that period.
11 We worked under impossible conditions. We lacked everything. We had
12 insufficient electricity supply, we didn't have enough water, we worked
13 without water, without gas. It was cold. Temperatures were low. There
14 was no heating. We had no fuel. Different types of fuel were lacking.
15 And we even had patients who displayed symptoms of frostbite as a result
16 of the extremely low temperatures, the extreme cold, the harsh conditions.
17 Q. For a moment, let us speak about the ambulances. During this
18 period, were the ambulances affected by the war?
19 A. Yes, of course they were. Our ambulances were not able to
20 transport patients during the day, when there was intensive shelling. We
21 had to treat our patients in out-patient departments. We had to stabilise
22 their condition, to give them first aid, and to keep them alive until such
23 a time as they were able to be transported in an ambulance, that is to
24 say, during the night, and we were to follow set routes. We referred to
25 them as the war route, war ambulance route. We had to use by-streets and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 back streets to reach the hospital at Kosevo, where the patients were
2 treated further.
3 Q. May I just clarify that? The emergency medical service, you said,
4 provides emergency medical treatment; is that correct?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Do you keep patients at the medical centre for any prolonged
7 period of time after their condition has stabilised?
8 A. We are not a hospital institution, so we treat patients prior to
9 their being hospitalised. So our interventions imply the administration
10 of emergency primary medical treatment, on the spot where the accident or
11 injury has taken place or where a person has been taken ill. So our
12 interventions took place in localities where people were wounded and
13 injured, and our teams would go out to those localities and evacuate the
14 casualties to the central emergency service facility, where the patients
15 would be given emergency first aid, reanimation, resuscitation. We would
16 check bleeding, any bleeding, stop bleeding, and then undertake the
17 necessary measures while the patient was being transported, medical
18 intervention during transport.
19 Let me just add: We would replace the bodily fluids that a
20 patient had lost. Drips, we would administer intravenous drips to
21 stabilise the patient and ensure that his primary bodily functions were
22 working. And under this intensive treatment, serious patients were then
23 transported to hospitals, where they were hospitalised and treated
25 Q. Very well. Now, could you tell us how the transport of these
1 patients to the hospital was organised?
2 A. As I've said, transport always took place during the night,
3 without any lights on the vehicles. The lights were switched off. And we
4 would have to use the back way, the byroads and back streets, which meant
5 that we -- it usually took a longer period of time. We weren't able to
6 use the main roads; they were dangerous and open to artillery fire. So we
7 had to take the back streets. And they were taken to the main entrance at
8 Kosevo Hospital and later on to the State Hospital, which was the former
9 medical military hospital. We had to go via Hum hill, which is a bypass,
10 because we weren't able to drive past the Marsala Tito barracks, which was
11 on the main road. So we couldn't use any of the main roads, we had to
12 take the back streets. Vojvode Putnika was another main road which we
13 couldn't use at that time. So we had to take an indirect route, using
14 safer streets. That's how we did it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, if you would allow me. You might have
16 heard that we are trying to gain a bit of discipline in this court, and
17 just in order to assist you, I'd like to inform you that, up until now,
18 you used half of the time which was the estimate for this witness. I'm
19 not -- so this is just to assist you, nothing else. I'm just drawing your
20 attention to that fact. Please proceed.
21 MR. STAMP: I'm grateful, Mr. President.
22 Q. You mentioned two staff members who were injured by sniping and
23 one by shelling. During the period I referred to, were there any others
24 that you can recall?
25 A. As I said, on the 17th of September Zika was wounded. On the 19th
1 of September, Nurko Milic was wounded; and on the 23rd of September,
2 two of our employees were wounded, Dragoje, Mario Dragoje and Marko
3 Dragoje, a father and a son who had a workshop and we had a contract with
4 them. They were in charge of maintaining our vehicles. And they moved
5 their workshop from the Darovalaca krvi street and eventually took up
6 quarters in the basement of our building. The two of them were wounded by
7 shrapnel in their apartment, at number 9 of Darovalaca krvi Street, on the
8 19th floor. Both of them were severely injured and received injuries to
9 the stomach. And I believe that he, the son, was evacuated to England for
10 treatment. I think he's still there, actually. That took place on the
11 18th -- 23rd of September. And then on the 18th of October -- I was just
12 going to tell you about the 18th of October.
13 Q. Please go on. Tell us about the 18th of October.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Which year is this? 18th of October of which year?
16 A. 18th of October, 1992. I'm talking about 1992 now. So on the
17 18th of October, our medical technician was wounded, Salko Kahrimanovic.
18 He was wounded by shrapnel of a shell in front of the emergency medical
19 service building. Salko Kahrimanovic.
20 And on the 19th of October, an ambulance driver was wounded. His
21 name was Rafet Cikotic. He was wounded in Partizanska Street. So not in
22 the immediate vicinity of the medical centre, Emergency Medical Centre,
23 but in Partizanska Street. But he was wounded as an ambulance driver.
24 Q. Did the medical centre itself have any facilities for keeping
25 bodies, dead bodies?
1 A. Yes. We had a morgue which was situated in the basement, just one
2 room. However, very often there was not enough space for all the
3 casualties. Also because the evacuation of the casualties, that is, the
4 fatalities, was not properly organised, so very often we were buried with
5 bodies, not only the area surrounding the morgue, but also the adjacent
6 corridors and the space around it.
7 Q. Could you tell us -- please tell us: In the period that I'm
8 speaking about, September 1992 to August 1994, what was the flow of
9 casualties into the Emergency Medical Centre?
10 A. The flow of casualties was somewhat less serious than at the very
11 beginning, mid-1992, because local clinics have managed to organise
12 themselves in the meantime, and they operated locally, in various
13 neighbourhoods, which to a certain extent facilitated our work. The only
14 patients we had were the people who were wounded in the immediate vicinity
15 of the centre. Actually, when I say "the immediate vicinity," I'm
16 referring to the area of about several kilometres away from the building,
17 from the main location of the Emergency Medical Centre. The maximum
18 number of daily patients was up to 50. I'm referring to the severely
19 wounded casualties. Whereas at the very beginning, we had over a hundred
20 patients admitted per day.
21 Q. Could you say at about what proportion of these patients were
22 military and what proportion were civilian?
23 A. Actually, I couldn't, because in view of the nature of the work
24 and the philosophy behind our work, we admitted not only injured people,
25 but also people who had sustained some general type of trauma and had
1 other types of health problems. So whoever needed our help was treated
2 humanely. And not only casualties, but everybody in medical need. But I
3 remember that there were quite a few of them who were members of the armed
4 forces, because of the kinds of documents that they had with them. But
5 they would have been wounded while off duty, while they were simply
6 walking down the street, and got injured. So they were also our patients.
7 Everybody who had experienced some kind of -- this kind of misfortune,
8 that is, whoever needed our help, was treated in our medical centre. As
9 for the records, others were in charge of that, and they knew about the
10 official status of patients who were admitted.
11 Q. Doctor, can you say if there were any psychological effects which
12 the sniping and the shelling had on your staff?
13 A. Yes. There were such moments when the entire staff would
14 experience this kind of psychological trauma and had difficulties to cope
15 with the kind of situation that we were faced with and the kind of hell we
16 were living in at that time, especially in cases of loss of colleagues.
17 For example, on the 31st of February [as interpreted], a colleague of ours
18 was hit by a sniper bullet, Ramiz Komilija. I forgot to tell you about
20 Q. Of which year?
21 A. 31st of February [as interpreted], 1993.
22 Q. Please go on.
23 A. So he was hit from a sniper, and the bullet hit his spine. He
24 succumbed to the consequences of this wounding six months later, and he
25 was completely paralysed during those six months. He lived only thanks to
1 artificial lungs. But eventually, he died.
2 There were cases where people would start crying, all of them at
3 the same time, and such moments were unbearable.
4 Q. And speaking as a doctor and as a human being, did you make any
5 observations as to the psychological effect that the shelling and sniping
6 had on the people that you came across with day to day?
7 A. Yes, I did. Some of the employees underwent severe stress, and
8 many of them were not able to continue with their work. I remember Avdo
9 Beglerovic, a driver of ours, who at one point in time said that he was no
10 longer able to continue working there, that he didn't feel physically
11 capable to continue. So he was spared. And I told my employees, I told
12 them that whoever is not feeling up to it should not come to work, so as
13 not to influence adversely other staff members. We were relying on the
14 strongest ones, those who were able to endure it all, both physically and
16 Q. Now, how did they react to this stress and trauma that you
18 A. In most of the cases, people would start crying, moaning, making
19 various types of comments, or simply they would become depressed. They
20 were desperate, the situation was desperate, and they verbally expressed
21 it. They spoke about the situation as the one without any possible
22 solution. And as I said, we appealed to those who were the strongest ones
23 to continue coming to work, and we told others not to come.
24 Q. And the population of Sarajevo in general, did you observe any
25 effects of the stress on that population?
1 A. Yes. I was able to observe such effects on the population. I
2 remember that there were cases of mass withdrawal of population from the
3 front lines. Most of the people gathered in the centre of the town. So
4 there were periods of time where population would move from one
5 neighbourhood of the town to another in large numbers.
6 We were aware of the state of panic which reigned amongst the
7 people, but we were also aware of the fact that we simply must endure, not
8 to demoralise the population as a whole, because, for them, we constituted
9 some kind of support, not only technically speaking, but also morally, and
10 we wanted to encourage people with our work and continue. We simply could
11 not stop because of that.
12 Q. Speaking of your work, Doctor, have you yourself and the Emergency
13 Medical Centre received any particular award for its work?
14 A. In 1996, immediately after the war, the cantonal assembly, or
15 rather, the parliament of the Sarajevo canton, awarded our institute with
16 the so-called 6th of April award, which is the most prestigious award that
17 the society has been traditionally giving ever since the Second World War,
18 but that's the first time that this award was given to a medical
19 institution, to the Emergency Medical Centre.
20 Q. What was the award for?
21 A. It is a recognition, both professionally and politically. It can
22 be awarded to an individual or to an organisation. In this case, it was
23 awarded to an organisation, to the Emergency Medical Centre of Sarajevo,
24 as a recognition for our work during the war.
25 Q. Have you or the centre received any international recognition for
1 the work that you did during the war?
2 A. I personally received an award by the Pan-European Centre for
3 Emergency Medical Management Systems Foundation. It is an international
4 organisation which awarded me, in 1998, as a physician, as a humanist, and
5 as a professional who carried on with his work during the war and also
6 immediately after the war. I was awarded this special recognition in
8 Q. And lastly: During the period of the war, were any weapons
9 allowed in the hospital, the Emergency Medical Centre compound?
10 A. I don't think that we had such cases. I issued a very strict
11 order to the effect that no weapons whatsoever should be brought inside
12 the building, and the medical staff should not possess any weapon, the
13 penalty being suspension from work should anyone try to bring in weapons
14 and use them during the work.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, we come close to the time when we'll have
16 a break. If you please could find a suitable moment to stop.
17 MR. STAMP: It is a convenient time now, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
19 MR. STAMP: It is now a convenient time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then I also, just again in assisting you, remind you
21 that we are now at 75 per cent.
22 MR. STAMP: Yes. I have been told that by my colleagues here at
23 the bar. I'm grateful nonetheless.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will have a break --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break for 20 minutes, so we resume at 20
2 minutes to 1.00. One moment, please.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn until 20 minutes to 1.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you are standing instead of Mr. Stamp.
8 Yes, please.
9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. During the break, I have
10 been informed, indirectly, by the Victims and Witness Unit, that one of
11 the witnesses we propose to call in the near future will not be available.
12 The next witness is Youssef Hajir, followed by Fuad Sehbajraktarevic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. IERACE: That person was to be followed by Mesud Jusufovic.
15 I'm informed that a problem has arisen involving the family of Mr.
16 Jusufovic in Sarajevo, and he's anxious to return immediately to deal with
17 that problem. I do not anticipate that he will be available to give
18 evidence in the order that we have indicated. Indeed, it is not likely
19 that he will be able to give evidence in the next week or so.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So do you propose that we continue, then, with
21 Witness B, number 8?
22 MR. IERACE: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And then later you'll inform us about what time you
24 intend to call the witness which is not available at this time?
25 MR. IERACE: That's so.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you very much.
2 Mr. Stamp, you would like to continue cross-examining the --
3 examining the witness. I'll ask the usher to bring him in. Thank you.
4 Mr. Mulaomerovic -- yes. Please be seated, Mr. Mulaomerovic.
5 You may proceed, Mr. Stamp.
6 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, the examination-in-chief of the witness
7 is concluded.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Of course. I thought I corrected myself
9 already. Yes, please. It's concluded?
10 MR. STAMP: It's concluded.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, I didn't understand you. I thought it was
12 continued. So then the Defence will have the opportunity to start the
13 cross-examination of Mr. Mulaomerovic.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mulaomerovic.
17 A. Good afternoon, madam.
18 Q. On the 23rd, 24th of June, 1999, you made a statement to the
19 investigators of the Tribunal; is that correct, and you signed your
20 statement, right?
21 A. Correct, as it states there.
22 Q. The things you set out in the statement are those things that you
23 declared to the investigators of the Tribunal, and it was then written
24 down, and you confirmed that that was so?
25 A. Yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. You told us today that the centre or Institute for Emergency
2 Medical Assistance is located in Darovalaca krvi Street.
3 A. The street's name today is in Kolodvarska Street, and it used to
4 be Darovalaca krvi.
5 Q. Kolodvarska is its name now?
6 A. Yes. I said that you said that it was in Darovalaca krvi Street.
7 Q. Would you explain to us where Kolodvarska Street is located in the
8 city of Sarajevo. Could you give us a closer indication of whether it is
9 the centre of town, whether it is a suburb? Could you be more specific in
10 locating the street?
11 A. The building is in the centre, if you look at the overall city of
12 Sarajevo, the urban area. It is located close to important public
13 municipal buildings. The electrical distribution network building and the
14 20-storey high-rise, which is the pension fund and social insurance
15 building. And also close by is another tall building, the Energoinvest
16 high-rise, and another one that is is popularly called the matchstick,
17 another high-rise building, in fact. Then there is the stadium. It's a
18 railway stadium, and that is 500 metres away. It is the Zeljeznicar
19 football club stadium on the opposite side of the Miljacka River, whereas
20 our facility is on the right side of the Miljacka River, on the right
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mulaomerovic.
23 A. You're welcome.
24 Q. As far as I was able to understand, all the buildings that you
25 mentioned in respect to your facility, were they high-rise buildings?
1 Were they higher than your building or lower ones?
2 A. No. They were all higher than our own building. They are all
3 high-rise buildings, higher than ours, 20 storeys, except for the
4 electrical distribution network building, which is only a four-storey
5 building. But all the others were 20 storeys high.
6 Q. You said that your institute - and we're referring to the period
7 before the war, that's how my learned colleague started off -- can you be
8 more specific and tell us when you think the war in Sarajevo began? When
9 would you say it began?
10 A. Well, for the emergency service it began between the 4th and 56th
11 April, 1992. That's when we considered that the war for us started.
12 Q. You said that before the war, as an institute, you had four
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. Let me remind you: They are the Vogosca, Novi Grad, and Ilidza
16 and Dobrinja outstations; is that right?
17 A. Novi Grad is Dobrinja. It's the Novi Grad municipality, but the
18 locality is Dobrinja. And the fourth was at the airport.
19 Q. Thank you. The airport, I see. Before the war broke out, you
20 say before the 4th and 5th of April, what happened to those four stations?
21 A. Those four outstations worked -- they were on duty during the
22 night and catered to the needs of the population in the course of the
23 night, emergency service and general medical services, when the health
24 clinics or centres were closed.
25 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the medical staff, in your own
1 centre - and when I say "your centre," I mean the building in Kolodvarska
2 Street - and in the outstations, before the war, before the 4th and 5th of
4 A. It was mostly a tri-national composition, made up of the three
5 ethnic groups: Muslims, Serbs and Croats, or whichever order you like to
6 take those in.
7 Q. Both at the outstations and the central building?
8 A. Yes, that's right, because it was the rule that the outstations
9 weren't actually detached, but for a period of one month, we were to have
10 one team located there, and then this would be recycled. And teams would
11 replace each other every month in the outstations. They would be replaced
12 on a monthly basis.
13 Q. This national or ethnic composition, was it retained after the
14 outbreak of the war? Because we've just been speaking about before the
16 A. Yes, that's right. It did. It remained the same. Nobody was
17 sacked, nobody was left without a job unless an individual had decided to
18 give up his job and leave the emergency service institution. We even took
19 in new members, new staff members, during the war, Serbs amongst them too,
20 although the majority left.
21 Q. When you say "the majority left," do you mean in the outstations
22 too and the main building?
23 A. Yes, because all the staff members came to the central building
24 when the other outstations were cut off and placed under Serb control.
25 Q. What outstations remained under Serb control?
1 A. The Vogosca, Ilidza, and airport outstation, whereas Dobrinja, the
2 Dobrinja station, was shelled and destroyed, and it was within the
3 frameworks of what was called Vojnicko Polje.
4 Q. Could you tell us when the Dobrinja station was destroyed?
5 A. Straight away, at the beginning. I don't remember the exact date,
6 but it's probably recorded somewhere.
7 Q. As far as I'm able to follow, there was fighting. How was the
8 outstation destroyed? How did that happen? How did it come about?
9 A. I think it was destroyed largely from the shelling, and it remains
10 like that today. Only a third of the building has been reconstructed and
11 repaired; otherwise the rest still remains in ruins.
12 Q. When was that?
13 A. I said that it was at the beginning of the war.
14 Q. What about the Vogosca and Ilidza outstations? What happened to
15 them? You said that they were under Serb control.
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. Did the ethnic composition of the staff members in those
18 outstations remain the same?
19 A. Yes. I said that the composition was always mixed, ethnically
20 speaking, and as I say, the workers formed teams and each team would spend
21 a certain amount of time working in the outstations.
22 Q. And is that what happened after the conflict broke out as well?
23 A. Yes. It was just a sort of mathematical, arithmetical record and
25 Q. You told us today, in response to a question by my learned friend,
1 on line 6, 7, and 8, that you withdrew the staff from the stations in the
2 periphery, in the suburbs.
3 A. That's right. We said that all our staff members should come to
4 the central building so that we could group our forces, our staff, and see
5 who we had available and then send out people to intervene when the
6 call-up came for a medical intervention.
7 Q. Who took that decision?
8 A. I did myself, as director, because otherwise it was impossible to
9 organise our work and to work in the outstations that were under Serb
10 control. It was not possible to access them. They were completely cut
11 off. They were blocked.
12 Q. Who of the medical staff remained in those outstations, if they
13 did? Do you happen to know? And what ethnic group did they belong to?
14 A. I don't have any information that people stayed in those
15 outstations. Perhaps some of them did. Somebody did spontaneously if
16 they failed to turn up at the main building. But the outstations were
17 extinguished at the same time that the war broke out, to all intents and
19 Q. You spoke about the equipment that you had and the vehicles you
20 had. Could you tell us how all that functioned, how it all operated?
21 A. Our ambulances, vehicles, had all the medical and technical
22 equipment required to act in emergency situations, and the vehicles
23 remained in the central building; that is to say, they would go to these
24 points daily, according to the schedule.
25 Q. Did the vehicles -- were the vehicles also sent to the Vogosca and
1 Ilidza outstations?
2 A. Yes, that's right, from the day central station, they would go off
3 at night to do their shift, from 7.00 p.m. to 8.00 a.m. the following
4 morning, during the night, and then they would return to the central
6 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether this was the system that was in
7 operation before the war and during the war, or were there any changes?
8 A. Well, the same principle remained the same during the war as it
9 had been before the war. Daily, our vehicles, with the teams, would go to
10 the outstations in Vogosca, Ilidza, Dobrinja, and the airport station, and
11 we have new outstations today at the level of the canton of Sarajevo.
12 That was the city of Sarajevo, now it is the canton, where we have the
13 Ilijas, Trnovo, and Hadzici night stations, all the nine municipalities,
14 in fact, which make up the administrative whole, which is the canton of
16 Q. I apologise. Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. When I said
17 "before the war," I meant before the conflict broke out and the date you
18 mentioned, before the 4th of April and after the 4th of April. Were those
19 Vogosca and Ilidza stations functioning with respect to vehicles and
21 A. Up until the 4th of April, all the outstations were in operation.
22 They had all the necessary vehicles, they were manned with the necessary
23 staff members and equipment.
24 Q. What about the 4th of April?
25 A. I've already answered that. They were all -- they all withdrew to
1 the central building.
2 Q. You said that the ethnic composition of your institution was
3 mixed. Did that mean that all those who were Serbs in Ilidza and Vogosca
4 came -- I'm thinking of the staff, the doctors and drivers and nurses, did
5 they all come to the central building?
6 A. Yes, from the 4th of April, our records show that practically
7 everybody came to the central institute, the central building. Not 100
8 per cent. Several people did not turn up, and I have their names down in
9 our records. So not everybody did at the start of the aggression. They
10 just stayed at home and didn't come to work, the people that didn't turn
12 Q. You say that you kept records. Did you do that personally or some
13 member of your institution?
14 A. We have a brigade system or shift system. Each shift has a shift
15 leader, and he records when people come to work, and they are responsible
16 doctors in their shift.
17 Q. How many Serb physicians existed in the employ of your institute?
18 A. It's difficult to give an exact figure. I'll be speaking off the
19 bat, because I don't have the exact figures. But as far as I remember, I
20 think there were 13, but don't hold me to that. We can check it out, if
21 you want to know the exact number of Serb doctors.
22 Q. As far as I was able to gather, you have books or records of your
23 staff members, at the beginning of the conflict and during the conflict in
24 Sarajevo; is that right?
25 A. Well, we don't keep the records on the basis of ethnic
1 affiliation, but just the employees, how many employees and staff members
2 we have, the numbers, according to the different categories: Doctors,
3 nurses, technicians, drivers, and miscellaneous.
4 Q. Yes. I was not thinking of the ethnic composition. All I wanted
5 you to confirm was what I asked you, and you have confirmed that, the
6 number of employees. Thank you.
7 Would you explain to us how you admitted an individual to your
9 A. All calls for emergency medical intervention come in through one
10 telephone number, 94 and 611, and the exchange operator, the dispatcher,
11 answers those calls and sends teams, emergency teams, to the spot where
12 medical assistance is required. So people call up two numbers, 94 and
13 611, and the calls are answered by a dispatcher. It's a special telephone
14 that reaches the switchboard, the operator who dispatches the teams.
15 Q. Did you have an admissions log, log book?
16 A. Yes, we did. The dispatcher would keep a protocol, or log book,
17 for all calls and admissions. But later on, the telephone lines went
18 down. They weren't operating.
19 Q. Did you keep a protocol book of admissions?
20 A. Yes, that's right. We did keep the protocol books in the
21 dispatcher centre, in the admissions room, and we would record everybody
22 coming in or brought in, in whichever way, whether by ambulance or private
23 vehicles, who were brought in to the emergency centre.
24 Q. What did you enter -- what were the entries you made into the
1 A. We would write down the particulars and anamnesis, case history,
2 why the person was being admitted, what their symptoms were. And then
3 there was a dispatcher's book, log, where they would record the calls, the
4 symptoms, and the location for which the emergency assistance is required,
5 as well as the particulars of each individual; their name and surname, and
6 so on.
7 Q. Did you record the time of admittance?
8 A. Yes, we did.
9 Q. And what about the date?
10 A. Well, there's a separate form that has to be filled in with the
11 time, the date, and all the particulars.
12 Q. Does that protocol exist for 1992, 1993, and 1994? Is it still in
13 existence? Do you have it?
14 A. Yes. I think that the protocol book exists, with all the
15 particulars and entries.
16 Q. When you admitted a patient, did you record whether he was a
17 civilian or a soldier or a member of the armed forces?
18 A. I don't think we made those entries. Perhaps this was done
19 subsequently, but I don't think we would make those sorts of entries in
20 that protocol.
21 Q. When a patient was admitted to your institution who had been
22 wounded by a firearm, were you duty-bound to report cases of that kind;
23 and if so, who did you report cases of that kind to?
24 A. No, we didn't report them. We would just write this down as a
25 diagnosis. If it was vulnus sclopetarium, an entrance-exit wound, or
1 perhaps if it was a wound, an injury caused by an explosive device, we
2 would write it in as a diagnosis.
3 Q. Was it your duty and obligation to make a report of people coming
4 in with these types of injuries and report this to the competent
6 A. I think we informed the police, that the police was informed of
7 these war injuries, but I don't think that was done on a regular basis.
8 Q. When you say not on a "regular basis," as far as you were able to
9 notice, how often was this? Was it every month, every week, or every day?
10 How often would this be done?
11 A. Well, it wasn't reported on a regular basis, because that was
12 impossible. If you had a hundred patients every day suffering from
13 injuries or wounds, or even 50 patients, it would make this reporting
14 impossible. So -- because it would take up too much time.
15 Q. You said you were the director of the institution. Could any
16 third persons have access to the protocol books without permission from
18 A. Well, only official personnel, but not private individuals. So
19 the police, the court authorities, they were able to gain access, but not
20 anybody else.
21 Q. Would you explain to me how they were able to gain an insight into
22 those protocols and who has to give permission?
23 A. They make a request on the basis of -- they identify themselves
24 and show cause. This can also be requested by a family member, for
25 example. A family member might seek information about somebody who was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 killed. They could look in the records kept on the deaths, if they
2 thought that it might be a family member.
3 Q. When you said "the competent authority," could you explain whether
4 the authorities can just have insight into the protocols or whether they
5 could avail themselves of them and take them out?
6 A. No. Nobody was able to take the books away, but they could just
7 look at them.
8 Q. You said that since 1987 you have been the institution's director.
9 Now, from that time on, from 1987 to the present day, and especially in
10 the period of 1992, 1993, and 1994 and 1995, whether you issued any
11 documents to anybody with respect to those years, or whether anybody
12 looked through the documents and books for those years?
13 A. No, I don't think so. I didn't give permission for anything like
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your indulgence
16 and permission, I should like to present the witness with a Prosecution
17 Exhibit that I received from my learned friends. I'm going to let the
18 witness have a look at this document and to tell me whether this is the
19 stamp of the Institute for Emergency Medical Assistance and whether he has
20 any knowledge pertaining to the issuing of these documents.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
22 MR. STAMP: If I may --
23 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please, Mr. Usher.
24 Yes, please proceed.
25 MR. STAMP: My learned friend, for the record, has described the
1 document as an exhibit. I was wondering if we could be told what exhibit
2 number it is in this case.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's still a document, or is it a
4 document that has been tendered into evidence? Because we have an
5 agreement that we are only talking about exhibits once they've been
6 admitted into evidence.
7 Ms. Pilipovic, could you please give the number and tell us
8 whether it's a document or an exhibit already admitted.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a document
10 which was disclosed to the Defence by the Prosecution as part of the
11 documents listed on the 3rd of December, 2001 list. It's 00983141. That
12 is the number of the document. And it is a list of names, actually, names
13 of people who, according to this document, were admitted to the Institute
14 for Emergency Medical Assistance on the 1st, on the 2nd, on the 5th, 7th,
15 and 10th of October. I should like the witness to have a look at this
16 document so that he can explain to us what kind of paper this is, in view
17 of the fact that the document bears a stamp but no signature.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I assume that you tender this document into
19 evidence? It would then be prenumbered D -- I'm just looking to the
20 registrar. D24.
21 Mr. Usher, could you please first bring the copies to the
22 registrar. It has not yet been numbered, or is it numbered?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, this document will be marked as D24.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D24.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.
2 Could you please give one copy to the witness and other copies to
3 the -- or is this just one copy you've got? The Bench would like to have
4 -- yes.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a number of copies for the
6 Chamber and also for the other party, and the registry, of course.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Sir, you have a document in front of you which bears the stamp
10 belonging to the Institute for Emergency Medical Assistance; is that
12 A. Yes, that is correct. I said that persons in official capacity
13 can have access to the documents, and this is a proof that the documents
14 were accessed to by persons in official capacity. And when I say "persons
15 in official capacity," I'm referring to the relevant authorities, such as
16 the police, the judiciary, and so on and so forth.
17 Q. As regards this particular document, do you know who compiled this
19 A. No, I do not know. I know that individuals in official capacity
20 gained insight into this documentation.
21 Q. Do you know when that was?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether they made such inquiries
24 for the period 1992 up to 1995? Throughout that period of time or only at
25 certain points in time?
1 A. I know that such inquiries were made by persons acting in official
2 capacity throughout that period of time.
3 Q. Did you, as the head of the institute, establish that such
4 individuals were able to review these documents, and in what way were they
5 able to gain access to such documents, documents which included the names
6 of wounded persons and diagnoses, and so on and so forth, and over what
7 period of time did they last?
8 A. They were acting in official capacity, and as such, they were
9 given our permission to gain access and insight into such documents.
10 Q. Did they introduce themselves as persons acting in official
11 capacity? Did you have any obligation to see their actual identification
13 MR. STAMP: [Previous translation continues] ... on the record, as
14 I have it, at page 72, line 23 --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Stamp. I have some problems in
16 finding page 72, since I'm still at 70, I think. Oh, the other -- yes,
17 I'm -- I can't move the other one, so -- you said 72, line 23. Yes, it's
18 -- yes. Please proceed.
19 MR. STAMP: The answer doesn't seem to follow on from the
20 question, and I'm wondering if there is -- or if there might be a problem
21 in the translation. If the question perhaps could be asked again so we
22 could clarify what exactly is meant, if it please --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the question who compiled the
24 document, since the answer is not very much -- it seems not to respond to
25 the question. Now it's off my screen. I have to try to find it again. I
1 think the question was: "As regards this particular document, do you know
2 who compiled this document?" Is that the line you're referring to?
3 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: On my computer transcript, it says: "No, I do not
5 know." And that's in my recollection what the translation told us. And
6 then the answer continues: "I know that individuals in official capacity
7 gained insight." So I think a small part of the answer has fallen out on
8 the main screen, but I see it on my computer that the answer is: "No, I
9 don't know."
10 Does that clarify --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you will
12 allow me. My feeling is that the second question which immediately
13 followed was not recorded. I think that she asked who were those
14 individuals in question. There seems to be -- or rather, it is possible
15 that there has been an omission in the transcript.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not quite sure about that. Thank you for your
17 assistance, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in trying to solve the problem.
18 Is the Prosecution, having read the transcript as it is on the
19 portable computer, has it solved the problem??
20 MR. STAMP: In the interests of time, we propose that the
21 proceedings continue.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
23 MR. STAMP: If we need to clarify, we will do so later.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. You can always check on the
25 original recording.
1 So please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Sir, do you know which individuals acting in official capacity
4 made this document?
5 A. No, I do not. All I can tell you is that we are a public
6 institution, and as such, we are open, and our work is such that it
7 obliges us to provide access to the individuals acting in official
8 capacity to our documentation. But in principle, I'm not interested in
9 the identity of such individuals.
10 Q. Can we therefore agree that any individual who introduces him or
11 herself as an individual acting in official capacity can gain entry into
12 your institution and can be given access to your documentation with your
14 A. Yes, if he or she produces the relevant document.
15 Q. That is exactly what I would like to know. What kind of document
16 must such individuals show to you upon coming to your institute?
17 A. It is not something that we have to establish. Every public
18 institution has its set of identifying documents, and from such documents
19 we can see that the individual is acting indeed in an official capacity.
20 Q. In the case of this particular document, what kind of institution
21 was this individual from?
22 A. Well, we're not checking on them. They are working in accordance
23 with their task, with their mission, and we have to be open, as an
24 institution, to them.
25 Q. So you do not know which individual it was who came to your
1 institution and made this document?
2 A. No, I do not.
3 Q. Who is authorised, on behalf of your institution, to place a stamp
4 on this type of document?
5 A. The stamp is used in accordance with the relevant regulations
6 governing the use of stamp. I don't know who exactly is authorised.
7 Whoever has a signature of the director to that effect. If not, then it
8 means that he is not authorised to do that.
9 Q. Who in your institution was authorised by yourself to use the
10 official stamp?
11 A. The stamp was used by the legal department. I believe it is the
12 secretary -- yes, the secretary of the director who uses the stamp.
13 Q. Who in your institution is in charge of verifying, or rather,
14 authenticating the information contained in the protocol, the information
15 which was taken by this individual acting in official capacity for his own
16 purposes? Who is authorised to confirm the authenticity of such
18 A. No one is specifically authorised to that effect, that is, to
19 verify the authenticity of the documentation. The original documents are
20 contained in the book of protocols, and this can be checked by anyone who
21 wishes to have such access.
22 Q. Who on behalf of your institution is authorised to use this
23 protocol that you're saying is an original document and to issue it to a
24 third party or to an individual in official capacity, and who can testify
25 to the veracity, to the authenticity of the copy of such documentation?
1 A. No one in particular. This is usually done by the relevant
2 judicial body at the municipality.
3 Q. This document, the one that is in front of you, bears only the
4 stamp of your institution, and you are saying that you do not know who
5 placed this stamp and that you don't know who was authorised to check the
6 document against the original protocol. So in view of that, can you claim
7 that these documents that are in front of you are consistent with the
8 original, that is, with the protocol which is kept at your institution?
9 A. I cannot say anything about the authenticity of such documents.
10 That can be checked against the book of protocols, against the originals
11 that are kept at the institute.
12 Q. So you yourself cannot confirm for us that the document that is in
13 front of you, the document which bears the stamp of your institution, that
14 these individuals listed under these numbers and described with these
15 times of admission and relevant diagnoses - and we have a note that in
16 each case the wound was sustained in an armed conflict - that this
17 document is consistent with the original which is contained in the book of
19 A. Yes, you're quite right. We are -- we do not have any superior
20 position in respect of such authorities.
21 Q. Had this document been certified or authenticated by the relevant
22 authorities - as you say, a judicial body of some sort - would it be
23 possible to claim that this document is then consistent with the original?
24 A. Well, I don't know. Such individual, I guess, is able to confirm
25 that the document is indeed consistent with the original.
1 Q. You told us that your employees went out to locations upon
2 receiving telephone calls to that effect. Line 12 --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic --
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- 02 --
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- since you seem to be touching upon a new subject,
6 I'd like to inform you and assist you in a similar way as to the
7 Prosecution, that you spent approximately 60 per cent of the time used in
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Sir, you stated, at 12 hours, 02 minutes, that your teams would go
11 out into locations in cases of wounding. What exactly did you mean when
12 you said "wounding in war"?
13 A. Well, I was referring to the calls made to the dispatcher, who
14 would inform us of the war activities and the casualties, and we would
15 receive such information through them, or we would simply respond to these
16 type of calls, in cases of shelling or wounding, involving either
17 individual citizens or groups of citizens.
18 Q. So you would then visit the scene in an ambulance?
19 A. Yes. The location would be specified - for example: "Pere
20 Kosorica square, several individuals wounded. Please come as quickly as
21 possible to provide medical help."
22 Q. Would you then make a record of that particular location?
23 A. I think it was the duty of the dispatcher to record this kind of
24 information. I mean, it wasn't myself.
25 Q. Did the dispatcher go to the locations which were not specified?
1 Were there such situations as well?
2 A. Well, there's very few locations which can be called as
3 unspecified. Each dispatcher was able to specify and give appropriate
4 indications about the location in question.
5 Q. In 1992, you told us you had as many as a hundred patients
6 admitted per day. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes. On the 8th of June, I remember we had 107 patients
8 altogether, in 1992.
9 Q. Let me quote from your statement that you gave to the
10 investigators of the Tribunal, page 6 of the B/C/S version, paragraph 3.
11 "For example, at the time of severe combats for Pofalici, when Serbs
12 tried to cut the city in two, a number of people were taken to the
13 Institute for Emergency Medical Service."
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, but we have not been
15 given the references in the English statement.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that is true. The wounded would sometimes be brought in
19 piles to the emergency centre.
20 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the time when such combats were
21 being conducted for Pofalici?
22 A. Yes, I do. It took place in the month of May, sometime in mid-May
24 Q. Do you know what factions were opposed in this combat?
25 A. Well, those who were attacking the city against those who were
1 defending the city. The attackers were attacking everything, all kinds of
2 facilities in the town, including schools and other public institutions.
3 Dr. Silva Rizvanbegovic was killed in a vehicle which was riddled with
4 bullets coming from the Marsal Tito barracks.
5 Q. Specifically in respect of Pofalici, could you be more specific
6 and tell us where exactly that neighbourhood is in respect -- in relation
7 to the centre of Sarajevo?
8 A. It is located near the tobacco factory, but we only had
9 information that severe fighting was going on at that time.
10 Q. Do you know anything about the ethnic composition of the
11 population in the Pofalici neighbourhood?
12 A. No, I do not. I don't have any such information.
13 Q. If I put to you that 80 per cent of the population was Serb, would
14 you agree with me?
15 A. Well, if you say so, I can, I think, believe you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, are you talking about 80 per cent of
17 the population of Pofalici?
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Pofalici.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness --
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I was asking about the Pofalici
21 neighbourhood, yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if the witness has answered the question to
23 the extent that he has no knowledge, "I don't have any such information,"
24 I will not allow you to put a question again which results in the witness
25 saying, "If you say so." The answer is given to your question. You can't
1 just repeat it again, trying to either another answer or someone who has
2 said he has no knowledge about it, to put the same question to him. So I
3 will not allow you to do that again.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Sir, do you know who was involved in the fierce fighting in the
6 month of May in the Pofalici neighbourhood?
7 A. I told you that the fighting was between those who were attacking
8 the city and those who were defending the city, involving us who were
9 going about their daily work.
10 Q. According to you, who defended the city? How did they identify
11 themselves? Did they identify themselves as the defenders of the town and
12 did have they have any common denominator, anything characteristic about
13 them? In particular, did they wear any uniforms?
14 A. I can refer to them only as the citizens of Sarajevo who were
15 defending their town.
16 Q. According to you, who was the opposing party?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I'm sorry to interrupt again. We are
18 coming close to the time when we -- and we have to be very strict at the
19 end of the morning, since the courtroom will be used for another trial
20 this afternoon, I think. If you would come, within a couple of minutes,
21 to a point where you can stop the cross-examination, it would be
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I would just like to have the response to my question, that is,
25 who was the other party involved in the fighting for Pofalici? He told us
1 about one of the factions. I would like to know about the other.
2 A. Well, the other side consisted of those who were attacking the
4 Q. And who were they?
5 A. Just the other side. There's no third side. There was no third
6 side for the fighting.
7 Q. Very well. But who were they? Who was this other side as regards
8 the fighting for Pofalici? Do you know that?
9 A. No, I don't.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will break for now,
11 in view of the time, and resume my cross-examination tomorrow.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, could you please give us an
13 indication how much time you would still need? I have written down that
14 if we would allow you the same time as the Prosecution for
15 examination-in-chief, you would still have ten minutes left.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will respect the
17 time which was allocated to the Prosecution and which you have allocated
18 to the Defence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
20 Then we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00, in this same
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of
24 January, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.