1 Wednesday, 16 January 2002

2 [Open session

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom, also to

6 those who are technically assisting us; the interpreters and the technical

7 staff.

8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

10 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12 Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed cross-examining the witness Mr.

13 Ashton as soon as he has been brought in this courtroom, unless there's

14 any other thing to be raised by the parties. Yes, there's one thing. Mr.

15 Usher, would you please wait for a moment.

16 Ms. Pilipovic --

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. May I remind you, Ms. Pilipovic,

20 that you almost took a time similar, already, to the Prosecution in

21 cross-examining the witness; and I think that it was more or less a

22 guideline of the Trial Chamber in its earlier decision, which was not

23 quashed on appeal, that you should not take any more time than the

24 Prosecution in examination-in-chief of the witness.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to my

1 calculations and records, the Defence has -- the examination-in-chief

2 lasted seven hours and 50 minutes. I think that the Defence has used up,

3 according to my own calculations, five and a half hours, which gives us a

4 little leeway.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... seven hours and

6 50 minutes is not correct, but we'll come to that a little later, at the

7 first break. I think it was approximately six and a half hours, and

8 you're almost at six and a half hours, so would you please -- could you

9 give us an estimate on how much time you still need?

10 [The witness entered court]

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall do my best and complete my

12 cross-examination by the first break, which means one to one-and-a-half

13 hours more, of course with the Court's indulgence and permission, if we

14 agree that the time that the Prosecution has taken is more and is

15 approximately equal to our own calculations.

16 Let me stress that there were quite a few technical problems

17 during the cross-examination, which took up quite a lot of time, and as

18 the Defence is not able to have access to the transcript on the day in

19 which the proceedings end -- for example, I got the transcript late last

20 night of last week, of the 14th of January.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would like to urge you to see whether you can

22 do it in one more hour, and we'll come to that in far more detail on a

23 Status Conference, which will be held - and I'm addressing myself also to

24 the Prosecution at this moment - at the very end of tomorrow morning's

25 session. That means after the last break, we'll have a Status Conference,

1 and I ask the parties already to prepare, especially the Prosecution at

2 this moment, since they're presenting their case, to give it some

3 consideration as to how to speed up the presentation of the case. But

4 we'll do that tomorrow for the last three quarters of an hour.

5 You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 WITNESS: JOHN ASHTON [Resumed]

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

9 Q. Mr. Ashton, good morning to you.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. On the 14th of January, 2002, we left off while discussing the map

12 that you were looking at, and I should like the usher to present the

13 witness with that map now. I think the number of the map was 344.A. It

14 is the map the witness marked in the positions asked of him.

15 Witness, I asked you to mark in the apartment blocks behind the

16 line which you said and designated as the positions of the army of

17 Republika Srpska; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, ma'am.

19 Q. You visited those lines? You told us you did.

20 A. Yes, ma'am.

21 Q. Could you tell me how often you went to that part of town?

22 A. I went to Grbavica about once every two weeks.

23 Q. In view of the fact that you said you talked to the soldiers, do

24 you happen to know whether there was any water and electricity in that

25 part of town, from what you learnt from them?

1 A. Yes. They never -- they had water and electricity when I was

2 there. Also, they had gas when the other side of the city didn't have

3 natural gas. But there were sporadic outages. That much I know from

4 talking to the pharmacist in Grbavica when I went to see her.

5 Q. When you talked to the soldiers who were up at the front lines

6 there, in talking to them, did you hear whether they were locals from that

7 part of town where the lines were? Did they live there too? Were their

8 homes in the vicinity? Were they locals?

9 A. A few of the soldiers I spoke to lived in Grbavica before the

10 conflict. A few more of them had come from across the front line, from

11 downtown Sarajevo over to Grbavica, or from the surrounding areas right

12 near the city. Most of the people were, yes, generally from that area,

13 from Sarajevo. In fact, I don't recall talking to anyone that was not

14 from Sarajevo down in Grbavica.

15 Q. Did you get to know any of them?

16 A. There were three or -- three of them that I know that would always

17 come up to me when I drove into the area and greet me. It was one of them

18 that took me on a little tour of the front line.

19 Q. Would you agree with me when I say that, at the lines there, they

20 were defending their own homes and their households, in view of the fact

21 that they were locals and lived there?

22 A. If you ask for me to agree with that, no, I can't agree with that

23 because the problem was the opposing forces were actually the ones

24 defending themselves. The amount of ammunition and weaponry I saw in

25 Republika Srpska on that front line was quite extensive as opposed to what

1 the Bosnians claim they had, and since I didn't go to that Bosnian front

2 line on that side, I don't know, but I know that several assaults were

3 made, while I was there, by the Republika Srpska towards the Bosnian side.

4 Q. You say you didn't go around the Bosnian positions. How can you

5 say that they were poorly armed, then, if you didn't visit them?

6 A. Because I didn't visit them directly opposing that position;

7 however, I did go to Trg Heroje Bosnian front lines in July, and again in

8 October, November of 1992, and in 1993, and the Bosnians never had enough

9 weapons. They traded the weapons when they left the front lines. They

10 were given ten rounds to twenty rounds of ammunition each. And that was

11 what I was told was all the way around.

12 And when I went to Dobrinja and I went down to the Stup front

13 line, it was all the same; the Bosnians had very little material, purely

14 defensive. They were told not to fire unless they were told to fire or

15 they were attacked.

16 Q. You said -- you first said that you didn't visit the Bosnian army

17 positions and now from your answer I understand that you did go to Hrasno

18 and Dobrinja and Stup, the positions there. Could you tell us about

19 Dobrinja; which were the positions of the BH army there? And do you

20 happen to know what unit, military unit, military formations, was in

21 Dobrinja itself?

22 A. In the case of Dobrinja and Stup, all of us working for the United

23 Nations or journalists, everyone had to go through the front lines to get

24 to the airport. The airport road ran through there and the road later

25 constructed by the UN at the end of the runway towards Lukavica from

1 Dobrinja was running through the front line so you had contact every day

2 with those areas. Now, I never did visit the actual line along the

3 Dobrinja front on the -- going across the airport road. I was not allowed

4 into that area; just where the crossings were.

5 Q. Would you mark Dobrinja on the map for me, please.

6 A. Yes, ma'am.

7 Q. Would you draw a circle around Dobrinja, please, and the road,

8 route you took to the airport.

9 A. Now, just to let you know, I'm not going to indicate -- this line

10 on the front side is not going to indicate the exact front line. This is

11 just the area of Dobrinja, as you requested, okay?

12 Q. In that circle, is that where Dobrinja is, the Dobrinja

13 settlement?

14 A. Yes, ma'am.

15 Q. Would you -- could you tell us what route you took from town to

16 reach Dobrinja.

17 A. Yes, ma'am. From town -- and I'll draw the route for you, I'll

18 mark the route. Actually, it was this here. This was the corner I would

19 turn. And then the last Bosnian checkpoint was here, front line, and then

20 at the airport perimeter there was a French checkpoint, and this here was

21 considered No Man's Land.

22 Q. Where was the hospital in that part, the hospital you visited?

23 A. It was somewhere in this area here.

24 Q. How often did you go to Dobrinja, to the hospital there?

25 A. To the hospital, I only went five times.

1 Q. Did you see any soldiers in Dobrinja, armed and uniformed?

2 A. Yes, in this area here.

3 Q. You said that was the front line.

4 A. That's correct.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: A few moments ago, Ms. Pilipovic made an observation

8 to the witness that he had earlier said that he had not visited Bosnian

9 army positions, and now -- and she made a comment to the effect that he

10 was now contradicting himself. She made that observation, then went on to

11 ask him a question. Since then, I've been checking the transcript. I've

12 found the reference; page 1558. Indeed, that's not what the witness said.

13 He specifically said that he did visit positions. I rise to my feet at

14 this stage simply to request, Mr. President, that in future, when Ms.

15 Pilipovic puts to the witness what he has earlier said and suggests that

16 he has contradicted himself, that, in fairness, she also put to the

17 witness exactly what it was that she thinks he said earlier. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, there might be some misunderstanding, as

19 far as I understood the question and the answer given by the witness. I

20 noticed that Ms. Pilipovic asked the witness whether he -- how he would

21 know about the BiH weaponry, and then he answered that he was told that

22 there was not very much. And then he said he didn't visit -- but I think

23 he said he didn't visit it on that side, which of course doesn't mean that

24 he did not visit one of the other sides where BiH army might have been.

25 But let's not pay too much attention to it. I do agree with you that

1 exact quoting is of major importance in order to avoid any

2 misunderstanding.

3 At the same time, I'd like to ask Ms. Pilipovic, since Dobrinja

4 has not been part of the examination-in-chief, what exactly is her case as

5 far as Dobrinja is concerned at this moment? Because that's what is

6 required for touching upon ground in cross-examination if it's not touched

7 upon by the examination-in-chief.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said that

9 he visited the hospital in Dobrinja, and the reason I asked -- what I

10 asked him was how -- was how he got to Dobrinja, to mark the route he

11 took, and how you get to Dobrinja, to the hospital, and I think he has

12 confirmed what he said, and that was why I asked him.

13 Q. When you talked to the soldiers, Witness, at those positions, the

14 ones you marked in, did you meet an officer on that occasion?

15 A. I don't ever recall meeting an officer. That doesn't mean there

16 might not have been one present, but I never recall having met one or seen

17 one there.

18 Q. The people you talked to, do you know which unit they belonged to?

19 A. No, ma'am. I only know that they identified themselves as the

20 defence corps for that neighbourhood, that community. One of them always

21 referred to himself as a member of the defence unit, local defence.

22 Q. Thank you. When you marked in the facilities behind the front

23 line held by the BH army forces, you marked in the Marsal Tito barracks

24 and its location. Do you happen to know how many barracks there are in

25 the city of Sarajevo, were in the city of Sarajevo at the time?

1 A. No, ma'am.

2 Q. In the statement you gave to the investigators of the Tribunal on

3 the 29th and 30th of October and 1st of November, 2001, on page 03041485,

4 you said, and you're talking about the area and district of the Holiday

5 Inn and Presidency, you said that in that area there were no significant

6 BH army facilities that I knew about except the front line towards Vasin

7 Han, and that the Serbs targeted the Bosnian positions from their own

8 positions -- had they targeted, they could have hit the bases easily and

9 the concentrated forces of the BH army, like the Austro-Hungarian fortress

10 and the Sedrenik area in the eastern part of town.

11 When you said that, what positions of the BH army did you have in

12 mind? What were you referring to?

13 A. That fortress, which I never went into but I was told that was a

14 Bosnian army-held position, and also the Tito barracks, the two buildings

15 in Tito barracks, I never saw those buildings targeted.

16 Q. As far as I understand what you're saying, you say that the

17 building like an Austro-Hungarian fortress, was under the control of the

18 army -- the Bosnian army, as you yourself say.

19 A. That's what I was told; I didn't go in.

20 Q. Did they tell you that previously it had been the Jajce barracks?

21 A. I can't recall hearing that expression, no, ma'am.

22 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, were you informed that the Viktor

23 Bubanj barracks existed and that it was in fact a prison, there was a

24 prison in it?

25 A. No, I didn't know. I was not informed of that. I don't even know

1 where that's located.

2 Q. As you said you were in Dobrinja, what you have just stated, that

3 is to say, your comments to your statement, you said that in the eastern

4 part of town, the BH army troops were concentrated. Can you mark in the

5 positions of the BH army in that part of town for us now, please, on the

6 map. Could you mark that in? Because you said the Austro-Hungarian fort

7 was pointed out to you.

8 A. I never visited the eastern front lines the entire time I was

9 there, and I don't know of any, as you used the term, concentrations of

10 forces. I knew they were stretched very thin around the lines throughout

11 Bosnia, but I never heard about any concentration.

12 Q. I just read out to you what you yourself stated and you confirmed

13 and said that you abide by everything that you stated in your statements.

14 At this point, I should like to show you a map -- a photograph,

15 that is; 306. I made enough copies for all parties.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Do you intend to tender this photograph into

17 evidence, Ms. Pilipovic?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It would be

19 D22.

20 JUDGE ORIE: D22.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Is that the photograph that you yourself took?

23 A. Yes, ma'am.

24 Q. Is that the picture that you took at the moment you were up on the

25 roof of the Holiday Inn hotel?

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1 A. I never went to the roof of the Holiday Inn; that was much too

2 dangerous. I was up on the 10th floor.

3 Q. So it was from the 10th floor that you were able to observe this

4 incident and take the picture?

5 A. Correct. I moved from the 10th to the 6th floor, up and down,

6 during the shelling, during this particular shelling incident. For safety

7 reasons, I moved up and down and out of the way.

8 Q. You testified that you had seen when the -- the moment when the

9 shell exploded.

10 A. Yes, ma'am.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it's been put to --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. It's been put to the

14 witness that he testified that he had seen the moment when the shell

15 exploded. In fact, he has not testified to that effect. However, in an

16 annexure to his statement signed on the 1st of November, he has referred

17 to this incident. I'd be grateful if my friend could make the distinction

18 between testimony and what the witness has said in his statement. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic, it would --

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In annex 2 of

22 the statement, the witness speaks about the photograph 306 on page 2 of

23 the annex, under number 10, and he says as follows: "I saw when the shell

24 fell near the car which was racing down the street," and I asked him

25 whether he saw the shell explode or fall down.

1 Q. Could the witness confirm that he stated that he saw the shell

2 explode -- that he saw the shell fall down next to the car which was

3 speeding down the street? Did you state that?

4 A. Yes. I saw the shell explode next to the car.

5 Q. Would you please point to us on the photograph the spot where the

6 shell exploded.

7 A. It's not on the photograph, ma'am. The car was moving very fast

8 down the sniper's alley there. He was going at a high rate of speed. The

9 shell landed right in front of the museum. He ended up in front of the

10 next building past the museum, going west on the road. He travelled quite

11 some distance after the car was hit and ended up in that spot there.

12 Q. Could you explain to us how it was that you failed to film the

13 location where the shell exploded, though you stated that you had seen the

14 shell explode?

15 A. I do have pictures of where that shell exploded.

16 Q. Do you have pictures of the location where the shell left traces

17 or a picture showing the shell fall down and explode?

18 A. I do have a picture of a shell exploding moments before, in the

19 same location, before that car arrived. I also photographed the area

20 where the shell was being fired from, and at a later point that day, as

21 the attack carried on into the evening and darkness arrived, you could see

22 the muzzle flash on the hill above the cemetery. Every time the mortar

23 fired, then there was a pause, and then the mortar would explode down in

24 front of the Holiday Inn, in front of the museum.

25 Q. Did you see at that moment the position from which the shell had

1 come?

2 A. Yes, I did. I could not see the people there, but I could see the

3 flash of the outgoing mortar when it was fired.

4 Q. Was it a shell or a mine?

5 A. It was a mortar round.

6 Q. How far from the Holiday Inn hotel was the location where the

7 incident took place?

8 A. No more than 60 metres.

9 Q. From what side of the Holiday Inn hotel did you take the

10 photograph of this incident?

11 A. Facing Grbavica.

12 Q. How can you then explain your statement that the shell had come

13 from the top of Trebevic?

14 A. I'm afraid I don't understand your question, because -- unless

15 you're asking me which side of the Holiday Inn Trebevic is on, and that's

16 the same side as Trebevic that faces Grbavica. You can see Grbavica from

17 that side of the Holiday Inn and you can see Trebevic.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if you are referring to the statement

19 of the witness, could you please quote him literally, because the Chamber

20 has not available these statements. So would you please then always

21 literally state the statement of the then prospective witness.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

23 Q. Could you, sir, please explain to me what locations were you able

24 to see, what position were you able to see from the spot where you were

25 standing, from which you took the picture? What positions were you able

1 to observe from the place where you were at the time you took photographs

2 of this incident?

3 A. I was able to view a very wide panorama from as far down -- above

4 the sports stadium in Grbavica to the furthest point on Trebevic, where it

5 went around and you couldn't see any further back in the valley that went

6 back the other direction. The only obstacle in the way was the former, I

7 guess it was parliament building that stood across from the Holiday Inn.

8 That blocked some view, but a very small segment of the view, of Bistrik,

9 the Jewish cemetery area.

10 Q. Did you ever go to the Grbavica stadium?

11 A. No, ma'am.

12 Q. At the time you were staying at the Holiday Inn hotel, did you

13 have any knowledge as to the fact that the headquarters of the BH army

14 were located at the hotel?

15 A. No. I was in the lobby every day with the journalists, where we

16 had our briefings. We never saw anyone except an occasional soldier come

17 in to talk to the hotel manager. But we never saw any soldiers in the

18 Holiday Inn, just on a very rare occasion when they would pass through to

19 talk to the manager or talk to a journalist who was going to do an

20 interview. That's the only time I ever saw soldiers there.

21 Q. On those occasions when you interviewed soldiers or where some

22 other journalists interviewed soldiers, did you also take photographs of

23 such interviews, in particular, the interviews with members of the BH

24 army?

25 A. No, I did not take any photographs of the soldiers there because

1 they were not of interest to my media coverage. However, I do want to

2 make a comment here. If you use the term "soldiers," there were United

3 Nations French and Canadian soldiers that came into the Holiday Inn and

4 out of the Holiday Inn on a regular basis, to check on us. The Canadians

5 had a food contingent there and I saw them every day, come and go. So

6 that's just to clarify the fact that there were soldiers, in the

7 terminology of "soldiers."

8 Q. I asked you about the soldiers of the BH army and whether you saw

9 them and whether you knew that the Main Staff of the BH army was located

10 there, and you told me you didn't know.

11 MR. IERACE: I object.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Would you please respond once again.

14 MR. IERACE: My friend has just made an observation that this

15 witness has said he didn't know whether the Main Staff of the Bosnian army

16 was located in the Holiday Inn. That is incorrect. The witness was asked

17 whether he had any knowledge as to the fact that the headquarters of the

18 army were located at the hotel. That appears at line 10 of page 14. He

19 said, effect, he had no knowledge. That cannot be interpreted as a denial

20 -- as him saying that he didn't know whether they were located there.

21 Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I think, literally speaking, you're

23 right, if you say, "I didn't know," that leaves open that it might have

24 been there but you were just not aware. But the answer of the witness

25 went a bit further, saying that he had no reasons to believe that it was

1 there because he never saw any soldiers. I think this was quite well

2 understood by this Chamber, and I think these are minor issues that will

3 not be unnoticed by the Chamber itself and take a lot of time. So if it's

4 not really touching upon the essence of the statement -- of course, you're

5 always free to object whenever you want, but let's try to find some

6 discipline for all of us.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will -- I hear what you say. My

8 concern was that when one reads this transcript at a later point, undue

9 weight might be given to these observations which are in the transcript,

10 but I understand what Your Honour is saying.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 THE WITNESS: You asked me that question, and I want to tell you

13 that I had access to every room in the hotel. I was able to go up,

14 because the lobby is an open atrium and you see everybody coming and going

15 in and out of the hotel. There were only three entrances in use in the

16 hotel all during the time I was there and during the time I visited. I

17 also spent time down in the Canadian section, talking to the Canadians, in

18 the basement where they were keeping their food for UNPROFOR. The

19 kitchens, the conference room and the entire front area facing Grbavica

20 where the conflict zone was, there was absolutely no soldiers in there of

21 the BiH, in answer to your question.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you

23 Q. Let me complete my question. While you were staying at the

24 Holiday Inn hotel, did you at any point in time ever see a soldier of the

25 BH army?

1 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.

2 Q. How often would you see them there and how many would they be?

3 A. To my recollection, only one at a time, once a week.

4 Q. Would you tell us, please, what kind of uniform they were wearing,

5 if they were wearing uniforms. But because they were soldiers, I presume

6 that they were in uniform. So what kind of uniform did they have and what

7 kind of insignia did they have on those uniforms?

8 A. I remember seeing both camouflage and solid green uniform on those

9 soldiers. At one time I remember one sitting, talking to one of the

10 camera crews from CNN or CBS or ABC - I don't know which crew it was - and

11 he had a Bosnian symbol on his shoulder, the shield with the

12 fleurs-de-lis, and he had a hat with the same symbol on it, a beret.

13 Q. Did you see BH army soldiers wearing any other type of uniform

14 except for the one that you've just described?

15 A. Not to my knowledge. I saw the camouflage uniforms and the green

16 uniforms. I just -- I wasn't paying much attention to their uniform.

17 Q. Would you also see those soldiers in town?

18 A. Not those specific soldiers, but occasionally I'd see soldiers,

19 yes. Every now and then one would pass me in the street, but the soldiers

20 were not armed in town that I saw.

21 Q. Did you talk to those soldiers when you saw them? Were you in

22 their vicinity, since you're saying that they were not armed?

23 A. Yes. On a couple of occasions, I was stopped by two soldiers or

24 three soldiers standing together, just to ask who I was, check my

25 identity.

1 Q. On page 14, 15 of the transcript of the 11th of January, 2002, in

2 response to a question put to you by my colleague Mr. Blaxill, you said

3 that you had contact with the civilian protection organisation, and the

4 interpretation was on a daily basis, every day. Would you please explain

5 to us what the civilian protection is and on what basis you had this daily

6 contact with them.

7 A. Yes. I used to go up to the skating rink in Sarajevo,

8 underground, where all the food was kept. The United Nations convoys

9 would come in, and I met quite a few of the civilian protection people

10 there who were in charge of distribution of food. When I was down in

11 Hrasno district, I was approached by civilian protection many times. I

12 knew a few of the people there, who warned me that I was not supposed to

13 go any further or the military would stop me in a certain area along the

14 line if I wasn't escorted. For the most part, all I knew is they were

15 involved in the food distribution, and ...

16 Q. How were they dressed, those people, people from the civil

17 protection?

18 A. Those I saw were dressed in civilian clothes most of the time.

19 There were some dressed in blue overalls. At one time the government had

20 gotten some German street-cleaning uniforms. They were like coveralls,

21 winter coveralls, warm coveralls, sort of a pinkish colour. Some of the

22 people complained to me about the colour, saying it was so bright that it

23 was easy for snipers to shoot at them.

24 Q. You also told us that you had noticed them at various checkpoints

25 in town.

1 A. Yes. There were police checkpoints around the town to check

2 everybody's ID papers, and there was always one or two civilian protection

3 there at the checkpoint.

4 Q. We can therefore agree that, while in town, you would see people

5 in uniform, in police uniforms, uniforms of the civil protection

6 organisation, and olive-drab uniforms, also people wearing camouflage

7 uniforms?

8 A. Yes, ma'am.

9 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you become aware of Juka

10 Prazina, Caco? Did you ever hear about these individuals from your

11 colleagues and did you have contact with those people, Bajromovic as well,

12 for example?

13 A. Yes. In fact, I encountered Juka once in an incident at the State

14 Hospital. I knew about him. I did not see them very often. I knew that

15 other journalists had interviewed them, but I knew they were around,

16 because I heard a lot of stories about them from the local people.

17 Q. From those people, did you ever hear about the fact that they had

18 their own military formations?

19 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.

20 Q. Did you also hear from them that those paramilitary formations

21 terrorised the civilian population in town?

22 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.

23 Q. At this point, I would like to show you a picture. It's the

24 picture number 2391272 and 273. Actually, two photographs. That would be

25 Defence Exhibit D23.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Whilst the photograph is distributed, Ms. Pilipovic,

2 I'd like to inform you that the Prosecution took six hours, 45 minutes for

3 examination-in-chief, and that you took, until now, approximately seven

4 hours. So I would draw your attention to that fact.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Do you remember these photographs?

7 A. You have the other photograph, ma'am? Because I have two of the

8 same.

9 Q. Well, yes. I provided both photographs.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Since these are two different pieces of paper, would

11 you please renumber them such that both of them have a number.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The last two digits, 1272, 1273.

13 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I have two of the exact same

14 photographs here. I don't have the numbers on the photographs, but there

15 are two different photographs in that correspondence, she is right, but

16 one of these is the wrong photograph that I'm holding.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask that the

18 originals be shown to the witness --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to have them marked?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- So that he can answer the

21 question.

22 JUDGE ORIE: They look very much like the photographs we had in

23 the bundle. Do you want them to be marked by the witness or not?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

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1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The originals are marked 1272 and

2 1273, if the witness could confirm. Yes.

3 Q. Sir, would you please tell us when it was that you took the first

4 of these photographs that we're now looking at.

5 A. Yes. It was about 9.30, 10.00 in the morning.

6 Q. What month?

7 A. October 1992.

8 Q. In what part of the bus were you at that point?

9 A. I was in the very front, near the driver.

10 Q. What happened on that bus while you were inside of it?

11 A. We came around a turn and we turned parallel towards Grbavica. I

12 marked that on an earlier map, as a matter of fact, when we discussed this

13 incident. The bullet came down through the window on the right side of

14 the bus, and angled down towards the bottom underneath the windows on the

15 left side of the bus. The French UNPROFOR determined that it had been

16 fired from above the area of the sports stadium in Grbavica. They checked

17 the bus and they checked the angle of the trajectory of the bullet.

18 Q. Did you see the spot where the bullet struck, and did the glass

19 break?

20 A. Yes, it did.

21 Q. Would you please show us on the photograph the place where the

22 glass was broken.

23 A. It was near the back of the bus, in here.

24 Q. Sir, would you please explain to us how it was that you did not

25 take a picture of the exact spot in the bus where the glass was broken.

1 A. Because the bus stopped and everybody got off and ran for cover,

2 including myself. I didn't -- the bus was still out in view of the sniper

3 position. I didn't want to go back into the bus. In fact, I went

4 straight to the UNHCR office, which was only a few blocks away, and

5 reported it, and asked for the French, if they could come.

6 Q. Would you please have a look at the second photograph now, 1273,

7 please, the original that you have in front of you. Could you explain why

8 these people in the bus are laughing? Why is that man standing up there

9 smiling, as far as I'm able to see?

10 A. There was a scream from one woman. I recall her yelling out and I

11 heard people saying things under their breath in anger. I don't know if

12 that's laughter or if that's an expression of excruciation or anger. I

13 don't know. There were some people who just stood there, even when the

14 bullet came through, they didn't even bother to more.

15 Q. At that point, did the shot hit the window, the glass, and was it

16 shattered at the moment they all crouched down? Why were they -- why did

17 they react in this way?

18 A. Well, when we all heard the crash, we -- I jolted, and I saw the

19 people go down. One gentleman who was on the bus, standing next to me,

20 said to me afterwards, before I had left the scene - who spoke English -

21 he said that, "It doesn't matter if you duck, because the bullets go right

22 through it anyway."

23 Q. Did you take the photograph of the bus with the shattered glass

24 after that?

25 A. No, I did not. The French did, though. They have it in their

1 archive.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

4 I have one more question for this witness, and that would conclude my

5 cross-examination, and I would be respecting the time set by you.

6 Q. Witness, while you were in Sarajevo, you said that you had

7 contacts with the HVO soldiers, and you said that you had contact with

8 soldiers who were members of the army of the Bosnian Serbs and that you

9 would see soldiers belonging to the BH army. Will you agree with me when

10 I say that if those people used weapons, and if during the time that you

11 spent in Sarajevo they used those weapons, were all the people living in

12 that region traumatised and afraid? Did they all suffer from trauma and

13 fear?

14 A. Yes, ma'am, for a variety of reasons, they did suffer.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're standing up. What would

17 you like to inform the Court about?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I simply took

19 note of the fact that the Prosecution was very specific about semantics.

20 Quite simply, the witness said something. I don't think it was what he

21 meant to say. He stated that literally a mortar round exploded, in

22 French, [French phrase], but we -- to specify, Mr. President, it was on

23 page 12, line 22. What I'm reading in English, and I quote, for Mr.

24 Ierace: "[In English] Down in front of the Holiday Inn." And Mr. Ierace

25 will correct me if I'm wrong, was the shell. [In English] But I'm not

1 quite sure of that, of course.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Would this create any further misunderstanding or

3 would this -- could this cause any confusion? If not, I'd just like to

4 continue.

5 MR. IERACE: From my perspective, Mr. President, it doesn't cause

6 any confusion at all.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think the court is not confused by it either, so

8 thank you very much for your observation, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 The Defence has concluded the cross-examination of Mr. Ashton. Is

10 there any need of re-examination? Mr. Blaxill, please proceed.

11 MR. BLAXILL: I'm obliged to you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

12 Yes, indeed, we do have about four or five points and I hate to say we

13 guarantee, but I almost guarantee we should conclude before the break.

14 Re-examined by Mr. Blaxill:

15 Q. Mr. Ashton, firstly I would like to ask you this: My learned

16 friend suggested to you had you ever heard Galic give orders about, I

17 think it was the iron cross. My question is this: Did you at any time

18 see or hear General Galic give or appear to give orders to anybody or

19 about anything?

20 A. Did I see him directly give orders?

21 Q. Yes, sir.

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. Did you -- a little later, you made reference in a question about

24 sniper rounds of 7.62 millimetres to a maximum range of 1.000 metres. By

25 that, sir, what exactly did you mean? Did you mean that was the maximum

1 effective accurate range or the maximum distance a bullet could physically

2 travel of such a calibre?

3 A. Well, a bullet can travel way longer than that from that calibre.

4 That was the maximum effective range with a very good marksman, which

5 there were plenty around.

6 Q. Just a few minutes ago, Mr. Ashton, you were referring to the

7 incident with the motor car that was in the picture that my learned friend

8 put to you. You identified the source of fire. Can you say what happened

9 to the occupant or occupants of that vehicle?

10 A. Yes, and in that -- in this explanation, I will explain something

11 that was just brought up. When I refer to mortar round, I refer to a

12 mortar shell. When I refer to an artillery round, I refer to an artillery

13 shell. The mortar round - mortar shell, for clarification - landed next

14 to that vehicle. The vehicle went out of control, crashed into the

15 tracks. There was a woman in the passenger side of the vehicle and there

16 was a man in the car, and he desperately tried to get her out, and another

17 shell landed back towards the museum, directly in front of the Holiday

18 Inn, and he ran to a building across the street, scrambled underneath sort

19 of a little basement overhang there. I have a picture of that. He hid

20 there for some time as the shells continued into the dark. He could not

21 get out of that position. I later learned that the woman was killed.

22 Q. Did you have any idea of the age of the person, the lady?

23 A. She seemed to be a young woman, but I wasn't close enough,

24 actually, to -- there was a lot of smoke in the car too.

25 Q. Can you -- and can you confirm the date when that happened?

1 A. Yes. That was around July 15th.

2 Q. Of which year?

3 A. 1992.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. You also referred, in the course of

5 cross-examination, to an incident on the 14th of July. By that I refer to

6 the incident near the Holiday Inn, where the old lady froze in the street,

7 and she had a younger woman with her. You said you tried to render

8 assistance. In answer to my learned friend, you stated you did not

9 photograph that incident, but did you make any kind of pictorial or other

10 description of that? Did you record it in some way, that location?

11 A. Yes, sir, I do have photographs of that location.

12 Q. Did you, after that incident, make any other kind of recordings of

13 it? Did you in any way write about it, sketch it, or something of that

14 nature?

15 A. Yes, sir. When I went up to the Serb side one time, I found from

16 quite a different position, even closer, the day I was there, the day they

17 fired into the street, that was the street they were firing into from that

18 Serb position.

19 Q. Yes. I'm just wondering if, on the day of the incident, you made

20 any particular record in your view, say you refer to your journal. Did

21 you make any particular record of it?

22 A. Yes, I did. I made --

23 Q. What did you record as such that day?

24 A. That I had gone out the front -- now, this is from recollection.

25 Q. Sorry if I interrupt you.

1 A. I'm trying to get as close as I can to --

2 Q. If I may interrupt you. I'm going to ask you not to try and

3 retell the story, but did you write about it or did you do a sketch or

4 anything like that?

5 A. Yes, I did. I wrote about it. I wrote about the girl and the

6 woman and that the woman was fired upon and I went out in the street to

7 bring her back in and I continue on about the Canadians coming. It's all

8 in the journal, it's all there.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you. There's just one last thing that I would

10 like to ask you, Mr. Ashton. This is in reference to the photograph you

11 stated you took in September and was referred to in evidence in connection

12 with the issue of the "iron cross." That was in fact, in your own

13 exhibit, photo number 1328. In fact, Mr. Ashton -- sorry.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. BLAXILL: On reflection, I'm not so sure that the question we

16 were pondering will add anything significant, and in the interests of

17 saving time as well, I think we can say that that concludes the

18 re-examination. I'm obliged, Your Honours.

19 The only thing I would now mention is the issue of tendering the

20 relevant exhibits from the evidence of Mr. Ashton.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Blaxill. As far as I'm aware of, we have at

22 this moment documents that I would guess the parties would tender into

23 evidence. First of all, the black-and-white map 3644. That's the big

24 one.

25 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, Your Honour. We would suggest that that be

1 entered into evidence as 3644.JA, to follow the previous method we used

2 with that map.

3 JUDGE ORIE: So if there's no objection against that, it's

4 admitted into evidence. Then --

5 MR. BLAXILL: Sorry, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I think we have the bundle of photos,

7 P3641.

8 MR. BLAXILL: That is correct, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Bundle of photos. No objection. It's admitted in

10 evidence. Then we have a marked map with number P3645 and 45.1.

11 MR. BLAXILL: For the translation.

12 JUDGE ORIE: For the translation. That's the marked map, the

13 smaller one.

14 MR. BLAXILL: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No objection. So it's admitted into evidence. Then

16 as far as the Defence is concerned, because I think these were all the

17 Prosecution exhibits.

18 MR. BLAXILL: Indeed. That's all I invite you to admit.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then as far as the Defence is concerned, we have a

20 statement of Roy Thomas, which I understand is tendered into evidence as

21 Defence Exhibit D12.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to that exhibit, I object

23 to that tender for this reason: That the only part of it which was

24 relevant to these proceedings was one, I think perhaps two sentences,

25 which in any event were read onto the record. If, Mr. President, you

1 think that nevertheless there should be a hard copy of those sentences,

2 then that is what should be tendered into evidence, that is, those

3 sentences. At the very most, the page, but certainly not the whole

4 statement.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The whole statement. Would you please respond, Mr.

6 Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

8 Defence is ready, if necessary, to photocopy, re-photocopy and

9 re-re-photocopy all the pages of the dossier, of the file, but is it

10 necessary? We have the relevant pages. The witness recognised his

11 signature on the photographs. We have the dates because Mr. Ierace made a

12 passionate response on the chronology of it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I just ask you -- no, Mr.

14 Piletta-Zanin. The question is whether the Defence insists on tendering

15 into evidence the statement of Roy Thomas or not or can just limit itself

16 to one page. That's the question.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My answer is yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... or you will

19 insist?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The answer is yes, Mr.

21 President, to the question you have just asked. Our answer is yes, we

22 will be tendering the entire statement.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please respond to the objection. The

24 objection was that only a few lines, or at most one page, was relevant,

25 and the other parts should not be submitted to the Court.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am of the

2 opinion that everything should be tendered with respect to the context so

3 that the Trial Chamber has the whole context to take into consideration.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We will decide on this issue after the break. We

5 heard the objection. We'll take a decision on that.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have the photos to be tendered into evidence,

8 I would say the photos of tanks, D13 up until D21, 21 included. Any

9 objections? So that's admitted into evidence.

10 And then we have photo D22, which is the photo of, I would say,

11 the smoking car, if you would allow me this characterisation. That's D22.

12 No objection. It's admitted.

13 And then we have the last two photographs, of which I asked the

14 Defence on whether they would like to have any markings on it. They said

15 they would, but I did not notice any markings --

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] D23, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but these are the same photographs, as I see, as

18 those that are in the bundle, so they are admitted into evidence as photos

19 already, and since no markings are made, I would like to hear from the

20 Defence what the reason is that they want a black and white photocopy of

21 those photos already being admitted as exhibits will be tendered into

22 evidence.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's all right.

24 Thank you. That's okay.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry. I

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1 have to change again to the English. Let me just read your answer.

2 So I do understand that they are not tendered into evidence and we

3 rely on the statement of the witness as he has given on the coloured

4 photographs.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] May I just, with your permission,

8 make one more proposal for tendering into evidence?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence would like to propose

11 that the black-and-white map with the positions marked be tendered into

12 evidence as a Defence exhibit. It would be D24. And the Defence would

13 also like -- so that is the map with the positions marked --

14 JUDGE ORIE: I think that --

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- in response to questions from

16 the Defence.

17 JUDGE ORIE: But I think both the markings of the witness, upon

18 questions of the Prosecution and questions of the Defence, are marked on

19 the same map, and they have been admitted as Exhibit 3644.JA. So I don't

20 think that there's any need of admitting the same map with the same

21 markings on it again.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. I

23 merely wished you to confirm that.

24 The Defence has one more proposal. With your permission, the

25 Defence would propose that all three statements given by Mr. Ashton to the

1 investigators of the Prosecution be tendered under one number as a Defence

2 exhibit, including both annexes, which were supplied with the statement to

3 the Defence. The Defence apologises if photocopies are necessary, and the

4 Defence will, in the course of the day, hand in a sufficient number of

5 photocopied copies of this statement to the Registry. And I should ask

6 that they be numbered with a single number. I think that that number

7 would be D24, that that's the next number. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from any objections, I first would like to

9 note that it would not be D24, but it would be D23, the first number after

10 D22, because the other photos have not been tendered into evidence. But

11 do I understand there are objections?

12 MR. BLAXILL: Indeed so, Your Honour. Essentially, my learned

13 friend does not indicate precisely the reasons why she would wish to have

14 the entirety of these statements, which means any additional photographs

15 that have not been exhibited and so forth, placed before the Court. The

16 evidence has been covered, and really and truly, the only certain specific

17 extracts have been put to Mr. Ashton in cross-examination. Rather like my

18 learned friend's observations regarding the other statement, I don't think

19 it justifies a wholesale submission in evidence of all the statements of a

20 witness if vast tracts of that have not in any way been put to the witness

21 in the course of cross-examination, and I therefore ask, as a matter of

22 relevance, that they should stick to the admission of -- or rather, submit

23 to Your Honours to admit only those portions that are relevant to the

24 cross-examination that have been raised in this case.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence sees the relevance of

2 these exhibits and would like to tender them as Defence exhibits in order

3 to test the credibility of the witness, who has testified before this

4 Tribunal over the past few days.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... the tendering

6 into evidence, in view of the objections, after the break. We will have,

7 then, perhaps, the break a bit earlier than usual, and I would like to

8 propose to you that we start again at 10.50, and we'll adjourn until then,

9 after the witness has been --

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: 10.55.

12 Mr. Ashton, I'd like to thank you for coming here as a witness and

13 informing the Court about things that happened in Sarajevo upon questioning

14 of the examination of the parties. I still have to ask whether my

15 colleagues have any additional questions to put to the witness.

16 There are no additional questions, so, Mr. Usher, would you please

17 guide Mr. Ashton out of the Court.

18 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps we're almost at 10.30, so let's have a

20 break until 11.00. We'll be adjourned until 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber still had to decide on the tendering into

24 evidence of both the statement of Roy Thomas and the statements given to

25 the Prosecutors' investigators by Mr. Ashton. Our decision is that these

1 statements may be tendered into evidence, but only to the extent that they

2 are relating to the incidents or the specific subject touched upon during

3 cross-examination. So not the whole statements, not just one page,

4 because the subject might go from one page to the other, so that we can

5 have a look at the context of this statement as far as the incident or the

6 subject is concerned, but anything else, you don't have to delete it, but

7 is not admitted into evidence and we'll pay only attention to those parts

8 of this evidence which touches upon the issues dealt with during

9 cross-examination. So it's not just the lines, a bit more, a bit of

10 context, but not the whole statement.

11 I think there are no other decisions to be taken at this moment.

12 This would mean that the Prosecution may call the next witness. And as

13 far as I understand from your list, it would be Alija Mulaomerovic. Is

14 that correct?

15 MR. IERACE: That is correct, Mr. President, and that witness will

16 be taken by Chester Stamp, who is two on my right. Present also at the

17 bar table for the Prosecution at this moment is Manoj Sachdeva. He will

18 assist us at the bar table. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Just one other issue. There

20 are no exhibits, no documents which will be shown to the witness. Is that

21 true?

22 MR. IERACE: There is a map, that is the standard Sarajevo map.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Standard Sarajevo map.

24 MR. IERACE: Which will be shown to the witness. Mr. President,

25 whilst I'm on my feet, I go back briefly to the decision that you have

1 just handed down.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 MR. IERACE: The earlier statements refer to photographs which are

4 not before the Chamber. There is an annexure to one of the statements

5 which refers to each of a number of photographs. They were not included

6 in the witness's final evidence because they either predate or post-date

7 the indictment period. But since the decision is to allow the statements

8 into evidence, Your Honours may wish to have the annexures and the

9 photographs to which the annexures refer. If, following some

10 deliberation, you could let us know that, then we will provide copies of

11 those photographs. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd first like to wait and see what parts of

13 the statements the Defence will come up as being -- as touching upon the

14 issues dealt with during cross-examination, and if it would be necessary

15 for the understanding of the context to see the photographs. At this

16 moment, I do not see yet any necessity, but just convince this Chamber and

17 we'll give a decision on that. But for the time being, I would not insist

18 on having any photographs with it, but we'll first see what the

19 Prosecution will offer to this Chamber to be tendered into evidence, and

20 then we'll have a look at whether this is really limited by context, and

21 then we'll give a decision and we'll also see that any photographs are

22 needed or not.

23 May I also ask the parties whether -- and I'm now just looking a

24 bit further than just the witness to be called -- that on the witness

25 Hajir -- I have difficulties pronouncing it. Hajir, Sehbajraktarevic,

1 Jusufovic, Witness B, Aernout Van Lynden and Morten Hvall - I just go

2 to number 10 - are there any problems at this moment as far as disclosure

3 of documents, translations, whatsoever there is? I would like to be

4 informed about that. But I just wanted to remind you that I expect the

5 parties to communicate well in advance to inform the Court if there are

6 any problems. If this Court is not informed there are problems, we would

7 not like to be confronted with it at the very moment of the witness being

8 in court.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to Witness D --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. IERACE: -- a letter was forwarded by the Prosecution to the

12 Defence yesterday, informing the Defence that there is an additional

13 exhibit to be tendered through that witness, namely, a segment of the

14 video which was shown during my opening. That's the only change, I think,

15 to the --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There will be no problem as far as disclosure

17 of this video is concerned. So then, Mr. Ierace, the Prosecution may call

18 its next witness.

19 Mr. Usher -- yes, Mr. Stamp.

20 MR. STAMP: May it please you, Your Honours. The next witness the

21 Prosecution intends to call is Alija Mulaomerovic.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mulaomerovic, can you hear me in a language you

25 understand?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you very well.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome to this courtroom. You are called as a

3 witness by the Prosecution. But before testifying, the Rules require you

4 to make a solemn declaration. The text of this declaration will be handed

5 out to you by the usher, and would you then please make the declaration.

6 WITNESS: ALIJA MULAOMEROVIC

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mulaomerovic. Mr. Stamp will examine

11 you, so please be seated.

12 Mr. Stamp, you may proceed.

13 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President

14 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

15 Q. Good morning, Doctor.

16 A. Good morning. Good morning to you, sir.

17 Q. Could you please state your full name.

18 A. My name is Alija Mulaomerovic. I'm from Sarajevo.

19 Q. And what are your professional qualifications, please?

20 A. I'm a physician by profession. I specialised in hygiene and

21 organisation of health care. I am the director of Institute for

22 Emergency, Medical Emergency Service in Sarajevo. I had that function

23 during the war and I still occupy the same function.

24 Q. For how long have you been director of the emergency medical

25 services in Sarajevo?

1 A. I've been the director of the emergency medical services since

2 1987, without interruption.

3 Q. And you said you were director during the war. This is the war of

4 1992 to 1995?

5 A. That is correct. Throughout the war, yes.

6 Q. Now, immediately before the war, can you tell us what were the

7 services provided by the Emergency Medical Centre, briefly, please.

8 A. The emergency medical service was organised for the benefit of the

9 population of Sarajevo, including all the six of its municipalities which

10 it had at the time and which were covered by our centre in relation to the

11 overall number of ten municipalities that were considered to be the part

12 of the city of Sarajevo.

13 Q. What type of medical services did it provide to the population of

14 Sarajevo?

15 A. The emergency medical service is in charge of providing medical

16 protection and care to the individuals whose life or health are threatened

17 or in cases where severe damage to health is likely to occur. That is, it

18 provides medical help to all persons who are injured or wounded.

19 Q. Now, where was the Emergency Medical Centre located?

20 A. The Emergency Medical Centre was located at the same location

21 where it is today, that is, in Darovalaca krvi Street, number 14. The

22 name of the street actually today is Kolodvorska, but the number is the

23 same, number 14. That is the main building of the emergency medical

24 service. We had four satellite stations belonging to our service, which

25 were located in the municipalities of Vogosca, Ilidza, Novi Grad,

1 Dobrinja, and the airport.

2 Q. Now, in the delivery of the medical services, did the Emergency

3 Medical Centre have or use any particular equipment or vehicles?

4 A. In the course of its work, the Emergency Medical Centre uses

5 ambulances which are equipped with the relevant equipment to provide

6 emergency care during the transport itself and also on the premises

7 belonging to the Emergency Medical Centre.

8 Q. And as director, what were your responsibilities?

9 A. As the director, I am in charge for the overall organisation and

10 the functioning of various departments of the service, including all

11 matters relating to the staff and the premises themselves and the function

12 that the medical centre is supposed to provide.

13 Q. Now, at the outbreak of hostilities in 1992, did you make any

14 change in respect of the organisation of the centre?

15 A. Yes, we did. At the beginning of the war, we withdrew our staff

16 from the outstations because they were under a blockade, and we

17 centralised the work of the emergency service to the main building. That

18 is, our staff was centralised and started working in the central building.

19 Q. What do you mean by a "blockade"?

20 A. What I mean by a "blockade" is the fact that it was impossible to

21 reach those outstations because they were under the control of Serb

22 forces. I am referring to the outstations in Ilidza, Dobrinja, and

23 Vogosca. It was physically impossible to reach those outstations,

24 including the airport station, which was also cut off.

25 Q. Now, at the outbreak of the conflict in 1992, did your staff

1 situation remain the same?

2 A. At the very beginning, most of the staff remained. However, there

3 was a number of employees of Serb ethnicity that left the service. That

4 is, they stopped coming from work as of the 4th of April. And in the

5 course of the month of April, and later on in May, the number of staff was

6 significantly -- that number of staff was significantly reduced.

7 Q. During the conflict, what was the ethnic composition of your

8 staff?

9 A. The composition of my staff was multi-ethnic at all times. At the

10 beginning of the conflict, our employees were members of all ethnic

11 communities. I wouldn't be able to tell you the percentage but I'm sure

12 that it duly reflected the ethnic composition of the population of the

13 town of Sarajevo. I'm sure about that. All three ethnic communities were

14 represented; Croats, Serbs, and Muslims, as they were referred to in those

15 days. However, in the course of the conflict, the number of employees of

16 Serb ethnicity was significantly reduced because, in most of the cases,

17 they left the emergency medical service.

18 Q. In respect to the organisation of the functions of the Emergency

19 Medical Centre, did you take any particular steps in respect to the ethnic

20 composition of the staff?

21 A. We did. At the beginning, our emergency teams, with ambulances,

22 were usually stopped at the barricades and checkpoints, and that is the

23 reason why, in organisational terms, we endeavoured to have multi-ethnic

24 teams, to the extent it was possible. So the team would consist of a

25 physician, a paramedic, and the driver, and we tried to see to it that

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1 they were members of different ethnicities. So it was one way of having

2 some sort of safeguards, that they would provide some kind of security to

3 one another because of the barricades that were erected at the outbreak of

4 the war by the Serbs.

5 Q. Could you briefly describe the Emergency Medical Centre premises

6 at Kolodvorska Street.

7 A. It is the central facility of the centre. It had several clinics

8 for general medical intervention, emergency type of medical intervention.

9 Then we had a clinic for surgical intervention and trauma, pediatric

10 clinics, also for emergency cases, and we also have a diagnostic service,

11 which included a laboratory, x-rays, and also a technical department and

12 workshop, which also included a garage. There was also the administrative

13 and legal department there as well.

14 Q. Could you describe the building or buildings at Kolodvorska

15 Street.

16 A. The building itself is quite large. Its surface area is about

17 3.000 square metres. Most of it is situated on the ground floor. That

18 is, all medical facilities are on the ground floor, the reason for that

19 being the emergency nature of the work, so that the vehicles could access

20 all relevant departments.

21 In the basement we had a garage, together with car workshops,

22 vehicle maintenance workshops, and a car wash service as well, and some

23 sanitary facilities that were located both on the ground floor and in the

24 basement.

25 As for the upper floors, we had the administrative, legal, and

1 finance departments situated on the first floor.

2 Q. And did this building have any particular markings on it?

3 A. The building was visibly marked. The name of the service was

4 written in visible letters on the roof of the building. The "Institute

5 for Emergency Medical Services" was written on the building, and it was

6 duly marked with the international sign of the Red Cross, of the same

7 dimensions. It was quite visible, and the cross itself was one metre

8 large.

9 Each of the entrances was also marked with the name of the

10 relevant department written on it so it was visible from the outside. One

11 could tell what each department stood for.

12 The ground floor has a glassed-in area, so it was not protected

13 very well except for the portions that were built in concrete walls.

14 The roof was covered in cupolas, in domes, so that the natural

15 light, daily light, could come in.

16 Q. The markings of the International Red Cross and the name of the

17 Emergency Medical Centre which were on the building, on the roof of the

18 building, you said were visible. From about how far could these markings

19 be seen?

20 A. I think that they could be seen from a distance of up to one

21 kilometre, I think, especially during the night, because they were in

22 neon. The markings were in neon light.

23 Q. And you operated ambulances. Could you describe these ambulances,

24 please. Did they have any particular markings?

25 A. Our vehicles were Citroen C-25 type vehicles, which is a large

1 ambulance, and then the Volkswagen C-15 vehicles were used, and then I

2 think we had two Mercedes as well. But all of these vehicles were visibly

3 marked with the name of the firm. It said SOUR UNHCR, the University

4 Medical Centre. We were part of that, and the work organisations included

5 the clinics. And under that, it said OUR, Organisation of Associated

6 labour, and the Institute for Medical Emergency -- for the Medical

7 Emergency Service Sarajevo. That's what it said on the vehicles. And

8 then it said "Ambulance," with the Red Cross emblem on the sides of the

9 vehicle and at the back.

10 Q. Now, when the war started in early 1992, was the building

11 affected?

12 A. The building was hit several times during the war. I can't tell

13 you when it was hit first, but it is common knowledge that the building

14 was hit several times directly. It received direct hits at the entrance

15 to the building and the courtyard and part of the street outside the

16 building, and the roof of the building as well, because it's a flat roof,

17 a concrete flat roof.

18 Q. When you say "hit," what do you mean? You said the building was

19 hit several times. Hit by what?

20 A. It was hit with artillery projectiles from artillery weapons and

21 infantry weapons, artillery shells and infantry weapons, as far as I'm

22 able to explain this technically. We referred to them as infantry

23 projectiles and grenades or artillery shells. That's how we referred to

24 them.

25 Q. What do you mean by "infantry weapons"?

1 A. Well, I mean small arms; snipers, rifles, that kind of thing,

2 weapons which are able to shoot individually, individual bullets, and a

3 burst of gunfire as well.

4 Q. Now, did this shelling and sniping affect your staff when the

5 conflict began?

6 A. Of course it did. It was a direct threat to their security and

7 the safety of the staff, because they were directly exposed to danger.

8 Their lives were directly threatened and they had to do their job. They

9 had to give first aid and emergency service to the injured and wounded

10 citizens, whereas they were placing their life at risk as well. So their

11 lives were at risk and the lives of their patients were at risk while the

12 shelling was going on and while there was gunfire from the small arms and

13 other weapons.

14 Q. Did you suffer any casualties among your staff in the early period

15 of the war?

16 A. Unfortunately, yes, we did have casualties. Some were wounded and

17 some were also killed.

18 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to turn your attention to the period

19 beginning August of -- I beg your pardon. September of 1992 to August of

20 1994. In that period, did the shelling of the hospital stop or did it

21 continue?

22 A. From September 1992 onwards, this just meant a continuation of

23 what had been going on. Things continued with the same intensity in the

24 Kolodvarska Street. It was the same for the personnel and for the

25 ambulances. They came under fire. And on the 17th of September, in fact,

1 part of a shell hit a driver, some shrapnel hit a driver. His name was

2 Zika Lazic, the driver's name, and it was in the street outside the

3 emergency service, and it was the regional service that was located within

4 our own building.

5 On the 19th of September, a sniper hit another staff member, whose

6 name was Nurko Milic, and he was hit when he was taking a patient inside

7 on a stretcher. He was transporting the patient from the ambulance into

8 the building, into the emergency service building. He was hit at the

9 entrance to the building. And he remained a serious invalid. One of his

10 kidneys had to be amputated. He is retired now as a serious invalid.

11 Q. The first incident you spoke of, of the 17th of September, when a

12 shell hit the driver, what was the driver doing at the time?

13 A. I think he was a pedestrian at the time. He was walking towards

14 the building to go to his office, and I think he was hit by a shell from a

15 close distance. And we had to perform an amputation on one of his legs.

16 He was taken care of in the emergency service, and thanks to the fact that

17 he was close by at the time, we were able to save his life. Otherwise, he

18 would probably have died. Today he is also a serious invalid with just

19 one leg. The other was amputated.

20 Q. Were there any military facilities inside the Emergency Medical

21 Centre compound?

22 A. No, there weren't any military facilities. The institute is a

23 civilian health facility. It was like that before the war, during the

24 war, and today as well. It is a civilian facility.

25 Q. Was it well known in Sarajevo that it was a civilian medical

1 facility prior to the war and during the war?

2 A. I think that everybody in Sarajevo and even children knew that it

3 was a civilian medical facility, because the citizens would set a portion

4 of their personal incomes to finance the building. So in fact it was

5 through citizens' contributions that the medical emergency centre was

6 built in the first place, to cater to emergency cases. It was built in

7 1980 and put into operation that same year. So it's a relatively new

8 facility.

9 Q. Now, can you say where the sniping at the hospital and its

10 environs came from?

11 A. We think it came from the area where the former police school at

12 Vrace was located. That's one part. And the other section was the

13 Ozrenska Vrbovska street area, Zagorska street or Hrasno Brdo.

14 Q. These two areas that you speak of, under which party's control

15 were they?

16 A. Under the control of the Serb forces.

17 Q. And the shelling of the hospital?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Ms. Pilipovic.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has an

20 objection. The question asked of the witness was about the two parts of

21 town, two sections of town. I think that my colleague ought to be more

22 specific and precise in asking his question, what he's actually referring

23 to, if I understood him correctly. The witness didn't speak about

24 sections of town; he spoke about the police school and Ozrenska Street and

25 Hrasno Brdo. Perhaps my learned colleague could rephrase his question and

1 ask what part of town those facilities are. More precision, please,

2 that's my basic objection.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first see what has been said. The

4 question put by Mr. Stamp was: "Now can you say where the sniping at the

5 hospital and its environs came from?" The answer was: "We think it came

6 from the area where the former police school at Vrace was located. That's

7 one part. And the other one was the..." then it doesn't mention the name

8 of the street "... area of Zagorska street or Hrasno Brdo. "

9 The next question was: "These two areas--"

10 MR. STAMP: Areas.

11 JUDGE ORIE: "These two areas that you speak of, under which

12 party's control were they?" I think the witness has spoken about areas,

13 one area, Vrace area, and the other one the Hrasno Brdo. I do understand

14 that that's an area as well, but if I'm mistaken, please, Mr.

15 Mulaomerovic, correct me.

16 A. Well, the Vrace area is a well-known district, quarter of the

17 town. That's where it is and that's where the police academy or school

18 was.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It's Hrasno Brdo also an area of town?

20 A. Hrasno Brdo too is a quarter of the town, but the most precise

21 location would be to say that it was Ozrenska and Vrbovska and Zagorska

22 street. Perhaps it doesn't belong to Hrasno Brdo actually, but those are

23 the streets. I know the streets, Ozrenska, Vrbovska, and Zagorska. Those

24 were the actual streets. Whether it actually belongs to Hrasno Brdo I

25 can't really say.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Keeping this in mind, Mr. Stamp, would you

2 please proceed and, if necessary, rephrase your question. But I think the

3 objection as such is denied, but let's try to avoid any disputes on minor

4 issues.

5 MR. STAMP: I'm grateful, Mr. President.

6 Q. In respect to the shelling of the hospital of the Emergency

7 Medical Centre and its environs, can you say where the shelling originated

8 from?

9 A. I can't give you a location for the shelling. The shelling came

10 from all directions, I think, so it's difficult to say. All we know is

11 that there was shelling from somewhere, and we also know that we were

12 subject to direct fire and that our lives were in danger.

13 Q. During the period September 1992 to August 1994, was a building

14 damaged as a result of the shelling?

15 A. Yes, it was. I said we had a flat roof. The emergency service

16 had a flat roof, and it was insulated with hydro insulation, and the

17 results of the shells that exploded on it was that the roof was damaged so

18 that when it rained, the water would flow directly inside the building.

19 Q. During this period, did you undertake any repairs of the building?

20 A. We improvised, as far as we could, the hydro insulation, but all

21 the glass surfaces around the building were destroyed. But we did do

22 repairs and we did them in the course of the night. We came by some

23 bituminka tar and closed the holes, the apertures that had been formed on

24 the roof, to prevent the water from coming in and to protect the building

25 so that we could continue our work, as far as we were able, and to keep

1 the rooms dry. We closed off the glass partitions using wooden planks or

2 boards.

3 Q. Please tell the Court why you did these repairs at night.

4 A. That was the only time we could do the repairs, when it was dark,

5 when we were under cover of darkness, when the night protected us;

6 otherwise, we would be a sitting target to firing from artillery weapons

7 and small arms. We would have been quite visible up there. So that was

8 the only way we could repair the building. It was impossible to do that

9 during the day, so we had to use the night and do it under cover of

10 darkness.

11 Q. Can you recall if there were any particular types of shells which

12 struck the building?

13 A. Well, we used to refer to them as shells from mortars, mortar

14 shells. That's what we used to call them. And then the big ones, I

15 really don't know what they were called, those big ones. If I say that

16 they were shells, artillery shells, with a diameter of 40 -- about 40

17 millimetres and then there would be larger ones too, and there was a

18 special one that -- I think that would have been a sort of tracer which

19 hit the building on the 4th of December, 1992. The tracer bullets -- so

20 tracer bullets were used, and then these guided shells as well.

21 Q. What do you mean by "guided shells"?

22 A. Well, judging by the remains of those shells, what it looked like

23 was a long spiral. There was a long spiral, wire spiral, and the action

24 of it is continuous. That's how they explained it to us laymen. They

25 would be able to target a certain -- to aim at a certain target. So in

1 some places, we saw the remains of this coil or spiral wire. And that

2 particular shell hit the gynaecological department, gynaecological ward,

3 and destroyed the whole area. Luckily, at that particular time, nobody

4 was in the room so there were no human casualties. It was just a great

5 psychological shock to everyone.

6 Q. During the period September 1992 to August 1994, under what

7 conditions did the ambulances operate?

8 A. From September 1992, and in 1993, the first half of 1993, that was

9 the most difficult period, the worst period for us. We found it very

10 difficult to work under the conditions that prevailed during that period.

11 We worked under impossible conditions. We lacked everything. We had

12 insufficient electricity supply, we didn't have enough water, we worked

13 without water, without gas. It was cold. Temperatures were low. There

14 was no heating. We had no fuel. Different types of fuel were lacking.

15 And we even had patients who displayed symptoms of frostbite as a result

16 of the extremely low temperatures, the extreme cold, the harsh conditions.

17 Q. For a moment, let us speak about the ambulances. During this

18 period, were the ambulances affected by the war?

19 A. Yes, of course they were. Our ambulances were not able to

20 transport patients during the day, when there was intensive shelling. We

21 had to treat our patients in out-patient departments. We had to stabilise

22 their condition, to give them first aid, and to keep them alive until such

23 a time as they were able to be transported in an ambulance, that is to

24 say, during the night, and we were to follow set routes. We referred to

25 them as the war route, war ambulance route. We had to use by-streets and

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1 back streets to reach the hospital at Kosevo, where the patients were

2 treated further.

3 Q. May I just clarify that? The emergency medical service, you said,

4 provides emergency medical treatment; is that correct?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. Do you keep patients at the medical centre for any prolonged

7 period of time after their condition has stabilised?

8 A. We are not a hospital institution, so we treat patients prior to

9 their being hospitalised. So our interventions imply the administration

10 of emergency primary medical treatment, on the spot where the accident or

11 injury has taken place or where a person has been taken ill. So our

12 interventions took place in localities where people were wounded and

13 injured, and our teams would go out to those localities and evacuate the

14 casualties to the central emergency service facility, where the patients

15 would be given emergency first aid, reanimation, resuscitation. We would

16 check bleeding, any bleeding, stop bleeding, and then undertake the

17 necessary measures while the patient was being transported, medical

18 intervention during transport.

19 Let me just add: We would replace the bodily fluids that a

20 patient had lost. Drips, we would administer intravenous drips to

21 stabilise the patient and ensure that his primary bodily functions were

22 working. And under this intensive treatment, serious patients were then

23 transported to hospitals, where they were hospitalised and treated

24 further.

25 Q. Very well. Now, could you tell us how the transport of these

1 patients to the hospital was organised?

2 A. As I've said, transport always took place during the night,

3 without any lights on the vehicles. The lights were switched off. And we

4 would have to use the back way, the byroads and back streets, which meant

5 that we -- it usually took a longer period of time. We weren't able to

6 use the main roads; they were dangerous and open to artillery fire. So we

7 had to take the back streets. And they were taken to the main entrance at

8 Kosevo Hospital and later on to the State Hospital, which was the former

9 medical military hospital. We had to go via Hum hill, which is a bypass,

10 because we weren't able to drive past the Marsala Tito barracks, which was

11 on the main road. So we couldn't use any of the main roads, we had to

12 take the back streets. Vojvode Putnika was another main road which we

13 couldn't use at that time. So we had to take an indirect route, using

14 safer streets. That's how we did it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, if you would allow me. You might have

16 heard that we are trying to gain a bit of discipline in this court, and

17 just in order to assist you, I'd like to inform you that, up until now,

18 you used half of the time which was the estimate for this witness. I'm

19 not -- so this is just to assist you, nothing else. I'm just drawing your

20 attention to that fact. Please proceed.

21 MR. STAMP: I'm grateful, Mr. President.

22 Q. You mentioned two staff members who were injured by sniping and

23 one by shelling. During the period I referred to, were there any others

24 that you can recall?

25 A. As I said, on the 17th of September Zika was wounded. On the 19th

1 of September, Nurko Milic was wounded; and on the 23rd of September,

2 two of our employees were wounded, Dragoje, Mario Dragoje and Marko

3 Dragoje, a father and a son who had a workshop and we had a contract with

4 them. They were in charge of maintaining our vehicles. And they moved

5 their workshop from the Darovalaca krvi street and eventually took up

6 quarters in the basement of our building. The two of them were wounded by

7 shrapnel in their apartment, at number 9 of Darovalaca krvi Street, on the

8 19th floor. Both of them were severely injured and received injuries to

9 the stomach. And I believe that he, the son, was evacuated to England for

10 treatment. I think he's still there, actually. That took place on the

11 18th -- 23rd of September. And then on the 18th of October -- I was just

12 going to tell you about the 18th of October.

13 Q. Please go on. Tell us about the 18th of October.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Which year is this? 18th of October of which year?

16 A. 18th of October, 1992. I'm talking about 1992 now. So on the

17 18th of October, our medical technician was wounded, Salko Kahrimanovic.

18 He was wounded by shrapnel of a shell in front of the emergency medical

19 service building. Salko Kahrimanovic.

20 And on the 19th of October, an ambulance driver was wounded. His

21 name was Rafet Cikotic. He was wounded in Partizanska Street. So not in

22 the immediate vicinity of the medical centre, Emergency Medical Centre,

23 but in Partizanska Street. But he was wounded as an ambulance driver.

24 Q. Did the medical centre itself have any facilities for keeping

25 bodies, dead bodies?

1 A. Yes. We had a morgue which was situated in the basement, just one

2 room. However, very often there was not enough space for all the

3 casualties. Also because the evacuation of the casualties, that is, the

4 fatalities, was not properly organised, so very often we were buried with

5 bodies, not only the area surrounding the morgue, but also the adjacent

6 corridors and the space around it.

7 Q. Could you tell us -- please tell us: In the period that I'm

8 speaking about, September 1992 to August 1994, what was the flow of

9 casualties into the Emergency Medical Centre?

10 A. The flow of casualties was somewhat less serious than at the very

11 beginning, mid-1992, because local clinics have managed to organise

12 themselves in the meantime, and they operated locally, in various

13 neighbourhoods, which to a certain extent facilitated our work. The only

14 patients we had were the people who were wounded in the immediate vicinity

15 of the centre. Actually, when I say "the immediate vicinity," I'm

16 referring to the area of about several kilometres away from the building,

17 from the main location of the Emergency Medical Centre. The maximum

18 number of daily patients was up to 50. I'm referring to the severely

19 wounded casualties. Whereas at the very beginning, we had over a hundred

20 patients admitted per day.

21 Q. Could you say at about what proportion of these patients were

22 military and what proportion were civilian?

23 A. Actually, I couldn't, because in view of the nature of the work

24 and the philosophy behind our work, we admitted not only injured people,

25 but also people who had sustained some general type of trauma and had

1 other types of health problems. So whoever needed our help was treated

2 humanely. And not only casualties, but everybody in medical need. But I

3 remember that there were quite a few of them who were members of the armed

4 forces, because of the kinds of documents that they had with them. But

5 they would have been wounded while off duty, while they were simply

6 walking down the street, and got injured. So they were also our patients.

7 Everybody who had experienced some kind of -- this kind of misfortune,

8 that is, whoever needed our help, was treated in our medical centre. As

9 for the records, others were in charge of that, and they knew about the

10 official status of patients who were admitted.

11 Q. Doctor, can you say if there were any psychological effects which

12 the sniping and the shelling had on your staff?

13 A. Yes. There were such moments when the entire staff would

14 experience this kind of psychological trauma and had difficulties to cope

15 with the kind of situation that we were faced with and the kind of hell we

16 were living in at that time, especially in cases of loss of colleagues.

17 For example, on the 31st of February [as interpreted], a colleague of ours

18 was hit by a sniper bullet, Ramiz Komilija. I forgot to tell you about

19 him.

20 Q. Of which year?

21 A. 31st of February [as interpreted], 1993.

22 Q. Please go on.

23 A. So he was hit from a sniper, and the bullet hit his spine. He

24 succumbed to the consequences of this wounding six months later, and he

25 was completely paralysed during those six months. He lived only thanks to

1 artificial lungs. But eventually, he died.

2 There were cases where people would start crying, all of them at

3 the same time, and such moments were unbearable.

4 Q. And speaking as a doctor and as a human being, did you make any

5 observations as to the psychological effect that the shelling and sniping

6 had on the people that you came across with day to day?

7 A. Yes, I did. Some of the employees underwent severe stress, and

8 many of them were not able to continue with their work. I remember Avdo

9 Beglerovic, a driver of ours, who at one point in time said that he was no

10 longer able to continue working there, that he didn't feel physically

11 capable to continue. So he was spared. And I told my employees, I told

12 them that whoever is not feeling up to it should not come to work, so as

13 not to influence adversely other staff members. We were relying on the

14 strongest ones, those who were able to endure it all, both physically and

15 psychologically.

16 Q. Now, how did they react to this stress and trauma that you

17 described?

18 A. In most of the cases, people would start crying, moaning, making

19 various types of comments, or simply they would become depressed. They

20 were desperate, the situation was desperate, and they verbally expressed

21 it. They spoke about the situation as the one without any possible

22 solution. And as I said, we appealed to those who were the strongest ones

23 to continue coming to work, and we told others not to come.

24 Q. And the population of Sarajevo in general, did you observe any

25 effects of the stress on that population?

1 A. Yes. I was able to observe such effects on the population. I

2 remember that there were cases of mass withdrawal of population from the

3 front lines. Most of the people gathered in the centre of the town. So

4 there were periods of time where population would move from one

5 neighbourhood of the town to another in large numbers.

6 We were aware of the state of panic which reigned amongst the

7 people, but we were also aware of the fact that we simply must endure, not

8 to demoralise the population as a whole, because, for them, we constituted

9 some kind of support, not only technically speaking, but also morally, and

10 we wanted to encourage people with our work and continue. We simply could

11 not stop because of that.

12 Q. Speaking of your work, Doctor, have you yourself and the Emergency

13 Medical Centre received any particular award for its work?

14 A. In 1996, immediately after the war, the cantonal assembly, or

15 rather, the parliament of the Sarajevo canton, awarded our institute with

16 the so-called 6th of April award, which is the most prestigious award that

17 the society has been traditionally giving ever since the Second World War,

18 but that's the first time that this award was given to a medical

19 institution, to the Emergency Medical Centre.

20 Q. What was the award for?

21 A. It is a recognition, both professionally and politically. It can

22 be awarded to an individual or to an organisation. In this case, it was

23 awarded to an organisation, to the Emergency Medical Centre of Sarajevo,

24 as a recognition for our work during the war.

25 Q. Have you or the centre received any international recognition for

1 the work that you did during the war?

2 A. I personally received an award by the Pan-European Centre for

3 Emergency Medical Management Systems Foundation. It is an international

4 organisation which awarded me, in 1998, as a physician, as a humanist, and

5 as a professional who carried on with his work during the war and also

6 immediately after the war. I was awarded this special recognition in

7 Opatija.

8 Q. And lastly: During the period of the war, were any weapons

9 allowed in the hospital, the Emergency Medical Centre compound?

10 A. I don't think that we had such cases. I issued a very strict

11 order to the effect that no weapons whatsoever should be brought inside

12 the building, and the medical staff should not possess any weapon, the

13 penalty being suspension from work should anyone try to bring in weapons

14 and use them during the work.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, we come close to the time when we'll have

16 a break. If you please could find a suitable moment to stop.

17 MR. STAMP: It is a convenient time now, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?

19 MR. STAMP: It is now a convenient time.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then I also, just again in assisting you, remind you

21 that we are now at 75 per cent.

22 MR. STAMP: Yes. I have been told that by my colleagues here at

23 the bar. I'm grateful nonetheless.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will have a break --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break for 20 minutes, so we resume at 20

2 minutes to 1.00. One moment, please.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn until 20 minutes to 1.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you are standing instead of Mr. Stamp.

8 Yes, please.

9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. During the break, I have

10 been informed, indirectly, by the Victims and Witness Unit, that one of

11 the witnesses we propose to call in the near future will not be available.

12 The next witness is Youssef Hajir, followed by Fuad Sehbajraktarevic.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MR. IERACE: That person was to be followed by Mesud Jusufovic.

15 I'm informed that a problem has arisen involving the family of Mr.

16 Jusufovic in Sarajevo, and he's anxious to return immediately to deal with

17 that problem. I do not anticipate that he will be available to give

18 evidence in the order that we have indicated. Indeed, it is not likely

19 that he will be able to give evidence in the next week or so.

20 JUDGE ORIE: So do you propose that we continue, then, with

21 Witness B, number 8?

22 MR. IERACE: Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And then later you'll inform us about what time you

24 intend to call the witness which is not available at this time?

25 MR. IERACE: That's so.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you very much.

2 Mr. Stamp, you would like to continue cross-examining the --

3 examining the witness. I'll ask the usher to bring him in. Thank you.

4 Mr. Mulaomerovic -- yes. Please be seated, Mr. Mulaomerovic.

5 You may proceed, Mr. Stamp.

6 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, the examination-in-chief of the witness

7 is concluded.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Of course. I thought I corrected myself

9 already. Yes, please. It's concluded?

10 MR. STAMP: It's concluded.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, I didn't understand you. I thought it was

12 continued. So then the Defence will have the opportunity to start the

13 cross-examination of Mr. Mulaomerovic.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mulaomerovic.

17 A. Good afternoon, madam.

18 Q. On the 23rd, 24th of June, 1999, you made a statement to the

19 investigators of the Tribunal; is that correct, and you signed your

20 statement, right?

21 A. Correct, as it states there.

22 Q. The things you set out in the statement are those things that you

23 declared to the investigators of the Tribunal, and it was then written

24 down, and you confirmed that that was so?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. You told us today that the centre or Institute for Emergency

2 Medical Assistance is located in Darovalaca krvi Street.

3 A. The street's name today is in Kolodvarska Street, and it used to

4 be Darovalaca krvi.

5 Q. Kolodvarska is its name now?

6 A. Yes. I said that you said that it was in Darovalaca krvi Street.

7 Q. Would you explain to us where Kolodvarska Street is located in the

8 city of Sarajevo. Could you give us a closer indication of whether it is

9 the centre of town, whether it is a suburb? Could you be more specific in

10 locating the street?

11 A. The building is in the centre, if you look at the overall city of

12 Sarajevo, the urban area. It is located close to important public

13 municipal buildings. The electrical distribution network building and the

14 20-storey high-rise, which is the pension fund and social insurance

15 building. And also close by is another tall building, the Energoinvest

16 high-rise, and another one that is is popularly called the matchstick,

17 another high-rise building, in fact. Then there is the stadium. It's a

18 railway stadium, and that is 500 metres away. It is the Zeljeznicar

19 football club stadium on the opposite side of the Miljacka River, whereas

20 our facility is on the right side of the Miljacka River, on the right

21 bank.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mulaomerovic.

23 A. You're welcome.

24 Q. As far as I was able to understand, all the buildings that you

25 mentioned in respect to your facility, were they high-rise buildings?

1 Were they higher than your building or lower ones?

2 A. No. They were all higher than our own building. They are all

3 high-rise buildings, higher than ours, 20 storeys, except for the

4 electrical distribution network building, which is only a four-storey

5 building. But all the others were 20 storeys high.

6 Q. You said that your institute - and we're referring to the period

7 before the war, that's how my learned colleague started off -- can you be

8 more specific and tell us when you think the war in Sarajevo began? When

9 would you say it began?

10 A. Well, for the emergency service it began between the 4th and 56th

11 April, 1992. That's when we considered that the war for us started.

12 Q. You said that before the war, as an institute, you had four

13 outstations.

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. Let me remind you: They are the Vogosca, Novi Grad, and Ilidza

16 and Dobrinja outstations; is that right?

17 A. Novi Grad is Dobrinja. It's the Novi Grad municipality, but the

18 locality is Dobrinja. And the fourth was at the airport.

19 Q. Thank you. The airport, I see. Before the war broke out, you

20 say before the 4th and 5th of April, what happened to those four stations?

21 A. Those four outstations worked -- they were on duty during the

22 night and catered to the needs of the population in the course of the

23 night, emergency service and general medical services, when the health

24 clinics or centres were closed.

25 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the medical staff, in your own

1 centre - and when I say "your centre," I mean the building in Kolodvarska

2 Street - and in the outstations, before the war, before the 4th and 5th of

3 April?

4 A. It was mostly a tri-national composition, made up of the three

5 ethnic groups: Muslims, Serbs and Croats, or whichever order you like to

6 take those in.

7 Q. Both at the outstations and the central building?

8 A. Yes, that's right, because it was the rule that the outstations

9 weren't actually detached, but for a period of one month, we were to have

10 one team located there, and then this would be recycled. And teams would

11 replace each other every month in the outstations. They would be replaced

12 on a monthly basis.

13 Q. This national or ethnic composition, was it retained after the

14 outbreak of the war? Because we've just been speaking about before the

15 war.

16 A. Yes, that's right. It did. It remained the same. Nobody was

17 sacked, nobody was left without a job unless an individual had decided to

18 give up his job and leave the emergency service institution. We even took

19 in new members, new staff members, during the war, Serbs amongst them too,

20 although the majority left.

21 Q. When you say "the majority left," do you mean in the outstations

22 too and the main building?

23 A. Yes, because all the staff members came to the central building

24 when the other outstations were cut off and placed under Serb control.

25 Q. What outstations remained under Serb control?

1 A. The Vogosca, Ilidza, and airport outstation, whereas Dobrinja, the

2 Dobrinja station, was shelled and destroyed, and it was within the

3 frameworks of what was called Vojnicko Polje.

4 Q. Could you tell us when the Dobrinja station was destroyed?

5 A. Straight away, at the beginning. I don't remember the exact date,

6 but it's probably recorded somewhere.

7 Q. As far as I'm able to follow, there was fighting. How was the

8 outstation destroyed? How did that happen? How did it come about?

9 A. I think it was destroyed largely from the shelling, and it remains

10 like that today. Only a third of the building has been reconstructed and

11 repaired; otherwise the rest still remains in ruins.

12 Q. When was that?

13 A. I said that it was at the beginning of the war.

14 Q. What about the Vogosca and Ilidza outstations? What happened to

15 them? You said that they were under Serb control.

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. Did the ethnic composition of the staff members in those

18 outstations remain the same?

19 A. Yes. I said that the composition was always mixed, ethnically

20 speaking, and as I say, the workers formed teams and each team would spend

21 a certain amount of time working in the outstations.

22 Q. And is that what happened after the conflict broke out as well?

23 A. Yes. It was just a sort of mathematical, arithmetical record and

24 list.

25 Q. You told us today, in response to a question by my learned friend,

1 on line 6, 7, and 8, that you withdrew the staff from the stations in the

2 periphery, in the suburbs.

3 A. That's right. We said that all our staff members should come to

4 the central building so that we could group our forces, our staff, and see

5 who we had available and then send out people to intervene when the

6 call-up came for a medical intervention.

7 Q. Who took that decision?

8 A. I did myself, as director, because otherwise it was impossible to

9 organise our work and to work in the outstations that were under Serb

10 control. It was not possible to access them. They were completely cut

11 off. They were blocked.

12 Q. Who of the medical staff remained in those outstations, if they

13 did? Do you happen to know? And what ethnic group did they belong to?

14 A. I don't have any information that people stayed in those

15 outstations. Perhaps some of them did. Somebody did spontaneously if

16 they failed to turn up at the main building. But the outstations were

17 extinguished at the same time that the war broke out, to all intents and

18 purposes.

19 Q. You spoke about the equipment that you had and the vehicles you

20 had. Could you tell us how all that functioned, how it all operated?

21 A. Our ambulances, vehicles, had all the medical and technical

22 equipment required to act in emergency situations, and the vehicles

23 remained in the central building; that is to say, they would go to these

24 points daily, according to the schedule.

25 Q. Did the vehicles -- were the vehicles also sent to the Vogosca and

1 Ilidza outstations?

2 A. Yes, that's right, from the day central station, they would go off

3 at night to do their shift, from 7.00 p.m. to 8.00 a.m. the following

4 morning, during the night, and then they would return to the central

5 building.

6 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether this was the system that was in

7 operation before the war and during the war, or were there any changes?

8 A. Well, the same principle remained the same during the war as it

9 had been before the war. Daily, our vehicles, with the teams, would go to

10 the outstations in Vogosca, Ilidza, Dobrinja, and the airport station, and

11 we have new outstations today at the level of the canton of Sarajevo.

12 That was the city of Sarajevo, now it is the canton, where we have the

13 Ilijas, Trnovo, and Hadzici night stations, all the nine municipalities,

14 in fact, which make up the administrative whole, which is the canton of

15 Sarajevo.

16 Q. I apologise. Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. When I said

17 "before the war," I meant before the conflict broke out and the date you

18 mentioned, before the 4th of April and after the 4th of April. Were those

19 Vogosca and Ilidza stations functioning with respect to vehicles and

20 equipment?

21 A. Up until the 4th of April, all the outstations were in operation.

22 They had all the necessary vehicles, they were manned with the necessary

23 staff members and equipment.

24 Q. What about the 4th of April?

25 A. I've already answered that. They were all -- they all withdrew to

1 the central building.

2 Q. You said that the ethnic composition of your institution was

3 mixed. Did that mean that all those who were Serbs in Ilidza and Vogosca

4 came -- I'm thinking of the staff, the doctors and drivers and nurses, did

5 they all come to the central building?

6 A. Yes, from the 4th of April, our records show that practically

7 everybody came to the central institute, the central building. Not 100

8 per cent. Several people did not turn up, and I have their names down in

9 our records. So not everybody did at the start of the aggression. They

10 just stayed at home and didn't come to work, the people that didn't turn

11 up.

12 Q. You say that you kept records. Did you do that personally or some

13 member of your institution?

14 A. We have a brigade system or shift system. Each shift has a shift

15 leader, and he records when people come to work, and they are responsible

16 doctors in their shift.

17 Q. How many Serb physicians existed in the employ of your institute?

18 A. It's difficult to give an exact figure. I'll be speaking off the

19 bat, because I don't have the exact figures. But as far as I remember, I

20 think there were 13, but don't hold me to that. We can check it out, if

21 you want to know the exact number of Serb doctors.

22 Q. As far as I was able to gather, you have books or records of your

23 staff members, at the beginning of the conflict and during the conflict in

24 Sarajevo; is that right?

25 A. Well, we don't keep the records on the basis of ethnic

1 affiliation, but just the employees, how many employees and staff members

2 we have, the numbers, according to the different categories: Doctors,

3 nurses, technicians, drivers, and miscellaneous.

4 Q. Yes. I was not thinking of the ethnic composition. All I wanted

5 you to confirm was what I asked you, and you have confirmed that, the

6 number of employees. Thank you.

7 Would you explain to us how you admitted an individual to your

8 institution.

9 A. All calls for emergency medical intervention come in through one

10 telephone number, 94 and 611, and the exchange operator, the dispatcher,

11 answers those calls and sends teams, emergency teams, to the spot where

12 medical assistance is required. So people call up two numbers, 94 and

13 611, and the calls are answered by a dispatcher. It's a special telephone

14 that reaches the switchboard, the operator who dispatches the teams.

15 Q. Did you have an admissions log, log book?

16 A. Yes, we did. The dispatcher would keep a protocol, or log book,

17 for all calls and admissions. But later on, the telephone lines went

18 down. They weren't operating.

19 Q. Did you keep a protocol book of admissions?

20 A. Yes, that's right. We did keep the protocol books in the

21 dispatcher centre, in the admissions room, and we would record everybody

22 coming in or brought in, in whichever way, whether by ambulance or private

23 vehicles, who were brought in to the emergency centre.

24 Q. What did you enter -- what were the entries you made into the

25 protocol?

1 A. We would write down the particulars and anamnesis, case history,

2 why the person was being admitted, what their symptoms were. And then

3 there was a dispatcher's book, log, where they would record the calls, the

4 symptoms, and the location for which the emergency assistance is required,

5 as well as the particulars of each individual; their name and surname, and

6 so on.

7 Q. Did you record the time of admittance?

8 A. Yes, we did.

9 Q. And what about the date?

10 A. Well, there's a separate form that has to be filled in with the

11 time, the date, and all the particulars.

12 Q. Does that protocol exist for 1992, 1993, and 1994? Is it still in

13 existence? Do you have it?

14 A. Yes. I think that the protocol book exists, with all the

15 particulars and entries.

16 Q. When you admitted a patient, did you record whether he was a

17 civilian or a soldier or a member of the armed forces?

18 A. I don't think we made those entries. Perhaps this was done

19 subsequently, but I don't think we would make those sorts of entries in

20 that protocol.

21 Q. When a patient was admitted to your institution who had been

22 wounded by a firearm, were you duty-bound to report cases of that kind;

23 and if so, who did you report cases of that kind to?

24 A. No, we didn't report them. We would just write this down as a

25 diagnosis. If it was vulnus sclopetarium, an entrance-exit wound, or

1 perhaps if it was a wound, an injury caused by an explosive device, we

2 would write it in as a diagnosis.

3 Q. Was it your duty and obligation to make a report of people coming

4 in with these types of injuries and report this to the competent

5 authorities?

6 A. I think we informed the police, that the police was informed of

7 these war injuries, but I don't think that was done on a regular basis.

8 Q. When you say not on a "regular basis," as far as you were able to

9 notice, how often was this? Was it every month, every week, or every day?

10 How often would this be done?

11 A. Well, it wasn't reported on a regular basis, because that was

12 impossible. If you had a hundred patients every day suffering from

13 injuries or wounds, or even 50 patients, it would make this reporting

14 impossible. So -- because it would take up too much time.

15 Q. You said you were the director of the institution. Could any

16 third persons have access to the protocol books without permission from

17 you?

18 A. Well, only official personnel, but not private individuals. So

19 the police, the court authorities, they were able to gain access, but not

20 anybody else.

21 Q. Would you explain to me how they were able to gain an insight into

22 those protocols and who has to give permission?

23 A. They make a request on the basis of -- they identify themselves

24 and show cause. This can also be requested by a family member, for

25 example. A family member might seek information about somebody who was

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1 killed. They could look in the records kept on the deaths, if they

2 thought that it might be a family member.

3 Q. When you said "the competent authority," could you explain whether

4 the authorities can just have insight into the protocols or whether they

5 could avail themselves of them and take them out?

6 A. No. Nobody was able to take the books away, but they could just

7 look at them.

8 Q. You said that since 1987 you have been the institution's director.

9 Now, from that time on, from 1987 to the present day, and especially in

10 the period of 1992, 1993, and 1994 and 1995, whether you issued any

11 documents to anybody with respect to those years, or whether anybody

12 looked through the documents and books for those years?

13 A. No, I don't think so. I didn't give permission for anything like

14 that.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your indulgence

16 and permission, I should like to present the witness with a Prosecution

17 Exhibit that I received from my learned friends. I'm going to let the

18 witness have a look at this document and to tell me whether this is the

19 stamp of the Institute for Emergency Medical Assistance and whether he has

20 any knowledge pertaining to the issuing of these documents.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

22 MR. STAMP: If I may --

23 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please, Mr. Usher.

24 Yes, please proceed.

25 MR. STAMP: My learned friend, for the record, has described the

1 document as an exhibit. I was wondering if we could be told what exhibit

2 number it is in this case.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's still a document, or is it a

4 document that has been tendered into evidence? Because we have an

5 agreement that we are only talking about exhibits once they've been

6 admitted into evidence.

7 Ms. Pilipovic, could you please give the number and tell us

8 whether it's a document or an exhibit already admitted.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a document

10 which was disclosed to the Defence by the Prosecution as part of the

11 documents listed on the 3rd of December, 2001 list. It's 00983141. That

12 is the number of the document. And it is a list of names, actually, names

13 of people who, according to this document, were admitted to the Institute

14 for Emergency Medical Assistance on the 1st, on the 2nd, on the 5th, 7th,

15 and 10th of October. I should like the witness to have a look at this

16 document so that he can explain to us what kind of paper this is, in view

17 of the fact that the document bears a stamp but no signature.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I assume that you tender this document into

19 evidence? It would then be prenumbered D -- I'm just looking to the

20 registrar. D24.

21 Mr. Usher, could you please first bring the copies to the

22 registrar. It has not yet been numbered, or is it numbered?

23 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, this document will be marked as D24.

24 JUDGE ORIE: D24.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.

2 Could you please give one copy to the witness and other copies to

3 the -- or is this just one copy you've got? The Bench would like to have

4 -- yes.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a number of copies for the

6 Chamber and also for the other party, and the registry, of course.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Sir, you have a document in front of you which bears the stamp

10 belonging to the Institute for Emergency Medical Assistance; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, that is correct. I said that persons in official capacity

13 can have access to the documents, and this is a proof that the documents

14 were accessed to by persons in official capacity. And when I say "persons

15 in official capacity," I'm referring to the relevant authorities, such as

16 the police, the judiciary, and so on and so forth.

17 Q. As regards this particular document, do you know who compiled this

18 document?

19 A. No, I do not know. I know that individuals in official capacity

20 gained insight into this documentation.

21 Q. Do you know when that was?

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether they made such inquiries

24 for the period 1992 up to 1995? Throughout that period of time or only at

25 certain points in time?

1 A. I know that such inquiries were made by persons acting in official

2 capacity throughout that period of time.

3 Q. Did you, as the head of the institute, establish that such

4 individuals were able to review these documents, and in what way were they

5 able to gain access to such documents, documents which included the names

6 of wounded persons and diagnoses, and so on and so forth, and over what

7 period of time did they last?

8 A. They were acting in official capacity, and as such, they were

9 given our permission to gain access and insight into such documents.

10 Q. Did they introduce themselves as persons acting in official

11 capacity? Did you have any obligation to see their actual identification

12 documents?

13 MR. STAMP: [Previous translation continues] ... on the record, as

14 I have it, at page 72, line 23 --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Stamp. I have some problems in

16 finding page 72, since I'm still at 70, I think. Oh, the other -- yes,

17 I'm -- I can't move the other one, so -- you said 72, line 23. Yes, it's

18 -- yes. Please proceed.

19 MR. STAMP: The answer doesn't seem to follow on from the

20 question, and I'm wondering if there is -- or if there might be a problem

21 in the translation. If the question perhaps could be asked again so we

22 could clarify what exactly is meant, if it please --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the question who compiled the

24 document, since the answer is not very much -- it seems not to respond to

25 the question. Now it's off my screen. I have to try to find it again. I

1 think the question was: "As regards this particular document, do you know

2 who compiled this document?" Is that the line you're referring to?

3 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: On my computer transcript, it says: "No, I do not

5 know." And that's in my recollection what the translation told us. And

6 then the answer continues: "I know that individuals in official capacity

7 gained insight." So I think a small part of the answer has fallen out on

8 the main screen, but I see it on my computer that the answer is: "No, I

9 don't know."

10 Does that clarify --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you will

12 allow me. My feeling is that the second question which immediately

13 followed was not recorded. I think that she asked who were those

14 individuals in question. There seems to be -- or rather, it is possible

15 that there has been an omission in the transcript.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not quite sure about that. Thank you for your

17 assistance, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in trying to solve the problem.

18 Is the Prosecution, having read the transcript as it is on the

19 portable computer, has it solved the problem??

20 MR. STAMP: In the interests of time, we propose that the

21 proceedings continue.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

23 MR. STAMP: If we need to clarify, we will do so later.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. You can always check on the

25 original recording.

1 So please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Sir, do you know which individuals acting in official capacity

4 made this document?

5 A. No, I do not. All I can tell you is that we are a public

6 institution, and as such, we are open, and our work is such that it

7 obliges us to provide access to the individuals acting in official

8 capacity to our documentation. But in principle, I'm not interested in

9 the identity of such individuals.

10 Q. Can we therefore agree that any individual who introduces him or

11 herself as an individual acting in official capacity can gain entry into

12 your institution and can be given access to your documentation with your

13 permission?

14 A. Yes, if he or she produces the relevant document.

15 Q. That is exactly what I would like to know. What kind of document

16 must such individuals show to you upon coming to your institute?

17 A. It is not something that we have to establish. Every public

18 institution has its set of identifying documents, and from such documents

19 we can see that the individual is acting indeed in an official capacity.

20 Q. In the case of this particular document, what kind of institution

21 was this individual from?

22 A. Well, we're not checking on them. They are working in accordance

23 with their task, with their mission, and we have to be open, as an

24 institution, to them.

25 Q. So you do not know which individual it was who came to your

1 institution and made this document?

2 A. No, I do not.

3 Q. Who is authorised, on behalf of your institution, to place a stamp

4 on this type of document?

5 A. The stamp is used in accordance with the relevant regulations

6 governing the use of stamp. I don't know who exactly is authorised.

7 Whoever has a signature of the director to that effect. If not, then it

8 means that he is not authorised to do that.

9 Q. Who in your institution was authorised by yourself to use the

10 official stamp?

11 A. The stamp was used by the legal department. I believe it is the

12 secretary -- yes, the secretary of the director who uses the stamp.

13 Q. Who in your institution is in charge of verifying, or rather,

14 authenticating the information contained in the protocol, the information

15 which was taken by this individual acting in official capacity for his own

16 purposes? Who is authorised to confirm the authenticity of such

17 information?

18 A. No one is specifically authorised to that effect, that is, to

19 verify the authenticity of the documentation. The original documents are

20 contained in the book of protocols, and this can be checked by anyone who

21 wishes to have such access.

22 Q. Who on behalf of your institution is authorised to use this

23 protocol that you're saying is an original document and to issue it to a

24 third party or to an individual in official capacity, and who can testify

25 to the veracity, to the authenticity of the copy of such documentation?

1 A. No one in particular. This is usually done by the relevant

2 judicial body at the municipality.

3 Q. This document, the one that is in front of you, bears only the

4 stamp of your institution, and you are saying that you do not know who

5 placed this stamp and that you don't know who was authorised to check the

6 document against the original protocol. So in view of that, can you claim

7 that these documents that are in front of you are consistent with the

8 original, that is, with the protocol which is kept at your institution?

9 A. I cannot say anything about the authenticity of such documents.

10 That can be checked against the book of protocols, against the originals

11 that are kept at the institute.

12 Q. So you yourself cannot confirm for us that the document that is in

13 front of you, the document which bears the stamp of your institution, that

14 these individuals listed under these numbers and described with these

15 times of admission and relevant diagnoses - and we have a note that in

16 each case the wound was sustained in an armed conflict - that this

17 document is consistent with the original which is contained in the book of

18 protocols?

19 A. Yes, you're quite right. We are -- we do not have any superior

20 position in respect of such authorities.

21 Q. Had this document been certified or authenticated by the relevant

22 authorities - as you say, a judicial body of some sort - would it be

23 possible to claim that this document is then consistent with the original?

24 A. Well, I don't know. Such individual, I guess, is able to confirm

25 that the document is indeed consistent with the original.

1 Q. You told us that your employees went out to locations upon

2 receiving telephone calls to that effect. Line 12 --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- 02 --

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- since you seem to be touching upon a new subject,

6 I'd like to inform you and assist you in a similar way as to the

7 Prosecution, that you spent approximately 60 per cent of the time used in

8 examination-in-chief.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Sir, you stated, at 12 hours, 02 minutes, that your teams would go

11 out into locations in cases of wounding. What exactly did you mean when

12 you said "wounding in war"?

13 A. Well, I was referring to the calls made to the dispatcher, who

14 would inform us of the war activities and the casualties, and we would

15 receive such information through them, or we would simply respond to these

16 type of calls, in cases of shelling or wounding, involving either

17 individual citizens or groups of citizens.

18 Q. So you would then visit the scene in an ambulance?

19 A. Yes. The location would be specified - for example: "Pere

20 Kosorica square, several individuals wounded. Please come as quickly as

21 possible to provide medical help."

22 Q. Would you then make a record of that particular location?

23 A. I think it was the duty of the dispatcher to record this kind of

24 information. I mean, it wasn't myself.

25 Q. Did the dispatcher go to the locations which were not specified?

1 Were there such situations as well?

2 A. Well, there's very few locations which can be called as

3 unspecified. Each dispatcher was able to specify and give appropriate

4 indications about the location in question.

5 Q. In 1992, you told us you had as many as a hundred patients

6 admitted per day. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes. On the 8th of June, I remember we had 107 patients

8 altogether, in 1992.

9 Q. Let me quote from your statement that you gave to the

10 investigators of the Tribunal, page 6 of the B/C/S version, paragraph 3.

11 "For example, at the time of severe combats for Pofalici, when Serbs

12 tried to cut the city in two, a number of people were taken to the

13 Institute for Emergency Medical Service."

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, but we have not been

15 given the references in the English statement.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is true. The wounded would sometimes be brought in

19 piles to the emergency centre.

20 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the time when such combats were

21 being conducted for Pofalici?

22 A. Yes, I do. It took place in the month of May, sometime in mid-May

23 1992.

24 Q. Do you know what factions were opposed in this combat?

25 A. Well, those who were attacking the city against those who were

1 defending the city. The attackers were attacking everything, all kinds of

2 facilities in the town, including schools and other public institutions.

3 Dr. Silva Rizvanbegovic was killed in a vehicle which was riddled with

4 bullets coming from the Marsal Tito barracks.

5 Q. Specifically in respect of Pofalici, could you be more specific

6 and tell us where exactly that neighbourhood is in respect -- in relation

7 to the centre of Sarajevo?

8 A. It is located near the tobacco factory, but we only had

9 information that severe fighting was going on at that time.

10 Q. Do you know anything about the ethnic composition of the

11 population in the Pofalici neighbourhood?

12 A. No, I do not. I don't have any such information.

13 Q. If I put to you that 80 per cent of the population was Serb, would

14 you agree with me?

15 A. Well, if you say so, I can, I think, believe you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, are you talking about 80 per cent of

17 the population of Pofalici?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Pofalici.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness --

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I was asking about the Pofalici

21 neighbourhood, yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if the witness has answered the question to

23 the extent that he has no knowledge, "I don't have any such information,"

24 I will not allow you to put a question again which results in the witness

25 saying, "If you say so." The answer is given to your question. You can't

1 just repeat it again, trying to either another answer or someone who has

2 said he has no knowledge about it, to put the same question to him. So I

3 will not allow you to do that again.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Sir, do you know who was involved in the fierce fighting in the

6 month of May in the Pofalici neighbourhood?

7 A. I told you that the fighting was between those who were attacking

8 the city and those who were defending the city, involving us who were

9 going about their daily work.

10 Q. According to you, who defended the city? How did they identify

11 themselves? Did they identify themselves as the defenders of the town and

12 did have they have any common denominator, anything characteristic about

13 them? In particular, did they wear any uniforms?

14 A. I can refer to them only as the citizens of Sarajevo who were

15 defending their town.

16 Q. According to you, who was the opposing party?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I'm sorry to interrupt again. We are

18 coming close to the time when we -- and we have to be very strict at the

19 end of the morning, since the courtroom will be used for another trial

20 this afternoon, I think. If you would come, within a couple of minutes,

21 to a point where you can stop the cross-examination, it would be

22 appreciated.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I would just like to have the response to my question, that is,

25 who was the other party involved in the fighting for Pofalici? He told us

1 about one of the factions. I would like to know about the other.

2 A. Well, the other side consisted of those who were attacking the

3 city.

4 Q. And who were they?

5 A. Just the other side. There's no third side. There was no third

6 side for the fighting.

7 Q. Very well. But who were they? Who was this other side as regards

8 the fighting for Pofalici? Do you know that?

9 A. No, I don't.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will break for now,

11 in view of the time, and resume my cross-examination tomorrow.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, could you please give us an

13 indication how much time you would still need? I have written down that

14 if we would allow you the same time as the Prosecution for

15 examination-in-chief, you would still have ten minutes left.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will respect the

17 time which was allocated to the Prosecution and which you have allocated

18 to the Defence.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

20 Then we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00, in this same

21 courtroom.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of

24 January, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

25