Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2191

1 Thursday, 24 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, our screens are now working as well.

9 General Galic, please remain seated. I checked yesterday about

10 the flak jacket. And although this Chamber will not solve the problem,

11 but I understood that proper attention is paid to it. And if finally

12 there's no acceptable solution, then please come back with it to the

13 Chamber. Yes, please.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you're standing, although

16 cross-examination of Baron van Lynden was done by your colleague, so may I

17 assume there's another issue you want to raise? Please proceed.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. My learned

19 colleague has a few more questions, so with your permission, I don't think

20 we'll be overstepping our time limit. I think we have another

21 20 minutes. That's our assessment. And when my colleague concludes his

22 questions, I shall continue.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps just as a matter of guidance to

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I noticed that quite frequently he repeats earlier

25 answers given by the witness. And in our view, and since the Chamber may

Page 2192

1 give you some directions as far as the examination of witnesses is

2 concerned, I would do that only if there's really a necessity to bring

3 back into the mind of the witness what he has said before. But very

4 often, it's rather repetitious. So could you please keep that in mind,

5 and of course you may proceed with the cross-examination of Mr. van

6 Lynden.

7 Mr. Usher, would you please bring him into the courtroom.

8 MR. WAESPI: Your Honour, before the witness comes in --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Wait for one second, Mr. Usher.

10 Yes, Mr. Waespi.

11 MR. WAESPI: I'm sorry to bother you at this point, but if the

12 Defence proceeds with putting this letter which we provided him yesterday

13 with because he couldn't print it out, we would like to object at this

14 point.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could discuss it in the absence of the

16 witness. Yes.

17 You would object for what reason?

18 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps Your Honours have seen the letter?

19 JUDGE ORIE: No, we have not seen the letter.

20 MR. WAESPI: I can briefly inform you that it's dated 19 January,

21 1993. It is a letter which has no bearing on the witness. It deals with

22 an incident which happened in the afternoon of the 11th of January. And

23 unless the Defence establishes that the witness was indeed there at the

24 Kosevo hospital and that he had a sort of involvement with it, so he can

25 confirm or deny, we would see no point in showing this letter to the

Page 2193

1 witness.

2 Also, the witness was asked whether -- in cross-examination, he

3 was asked whether the Bosnian troops had used the hospital for military

4 purposes, and his answer was no. Also, not in examination-in-chief or in

5 his witness statement he pronounced on anything about the presence of a

6 mortar on the grounds of the Kosevo hospital. So in our submission, we

7 think it would not make sense to show the letter to this witness. Thank

8 you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

11 giving me the floor. I should like to note that the production of this

12 document, that is to say, the letter and our wish to show it to the

13 witness, has resulted in a certain amount of disquiet with the

14 Prosecution. However, the letter indicates the fact that General

15 Morillon, who is well versed in military skills, refers to a number of

16 possibilities and says that it was possible that fire had been opened and

17 that it was shelled from an area around Kosevo hospital. So it is indeed

18 quite possible that this witness might have heard something about that.

19 So if I ask him a few questions as to the contents of the letter, he might

20 be able to give us some answers and respond.

21 Furthermore, the Defence has always claimed that the press did not

22 always report events accurately, and it is very important for this

23 particular case to ascertain whether the press was well-informed and kept

24 abreast of the actual events that took place. And this witness, who

25 worked for one of the biggest world news agencies and for Sky News,

Page 2194

1 satellite television, is precisely somebody well placed to be able to

2 answer questions of that kind.

3 So we think that is of substantive importance. Thank you.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. I think testing a

6 journalist on the broadness of his information is part of testing the

7 credibility of this witness and reliability of his knowledge. So you may

8 proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

10 Microphone, counsel.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please bring in the witness.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. van Lynden, the cross-examination

14 by Defence counsel will now continue.

15 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.

16 WITNESS: AERNOUT VAN LYNDEN [Resumed]

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Baron, and thank you again for

19 coming here. Can you hear me clearly? I believe you can with the

20 interpretation. We stopped off yesterday discussing the Butmir situation,

21 so let's take up where we left off. Is it true that you were

22 provisionally detained, detained by the Bosniak authorities, while you

23 were in the Butmir region? Yes or no.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you for that short, succinct answer. Is it also correct - I

Page 2195

1 think that you said so - that you discussed the existence of a specific

2 object at Butmir with certain Bosnian authorities?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Baron van Lynden, could you, in a word, specify what specific

5 object that was?

6 A. The -- the tunnel that the Bosnians had dug from Dobrinja to

7 Butmir, under the airport.

8 Q. Thank you for that answer, Baron. Baron, is it also correct, if

9 you have knowledge of that, or, rather, what was the attitude of the

10 Bosnian authorities with respect to the existence of that tunnel when you

11 asked them questions concerning the tunnel?

12 A. The attitude of those Bosnian authorities that I spoke to about

13 the tunnel was either to deny its existence or to admit that it existed

14 but not to let me anywhere near it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the sake of the record, see that I read

16 well, you started questioning, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, on a detention caused by

17 any discussion on the existence of a specific object at Butmir with

18 certain Bosnian authorities. The answer then was -- "What was this

19 object?" And then the answer reads:

20 A. The tunnel that the Bosnians had dug from

21 Dobrinja to Butmir, under the airport.

22 The Bosnians or --

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Correct.

24 THE WITNESS: The Bosnians, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

Page 2196

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

2 Q. To go back to the tunnel that the Bosnians dug, Baron --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Here the problem, in French you say, "the tunnel dug

4 by Bosniaks."

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Okay. Sorry.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The transcript reads "the Bosnians."

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I could say --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Was the tunnel dug by the Bosnians or by the

9 Bosniaks, just to use the words?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: It's a translation problem. So I - I do

11 apologise, but "Bosniaks" mean "Bosnians."

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: So sorry. So when I say "Bosniaks," it's

14 "Bosnian." Okay?

15 Q. [Interpretation] To go back to the tunnel, Baron, which was dug --

16 so the tunnel that was dug by the Bosnians, the people from Sarajevo,

17 could you tell us, please, why they denied the existence of the tunnel?

18 A. It's speculation on my part, but I would say the basic reasons

19 were a question of security. As far as I'm aware, no journalists, foreign

20 journalists or, for that matter, Bosnian journalists, were allowed

21 anywhere near the tunnel.

22 Q. Thank you for your answer, Baron. And when you say "security,"

23 use the term "security," am I correct in saying that you mean military

24 security and strategic security?

25 A. Yes. It's a war zone, and therefore that's -- obviously they did

Page 2197

1 not want their opponents to know of the existence, and if they knew of the

2 existence, at least not of the precise existence of entrance and exit.

3 Q. Thank you for your answer. The tunnel that was dug under the

4 airport and which finished close to the Dobrinja zone, exited near the

5 Dobrinja zone, was it also used to take through materiel, supplies, as far

6 as you know?

7 A. I have absolutely no knowledge because I was never allowed

8 anywhere near it.

9 Q. Thank you. I'm going to move on to another area now,

10 Baron van Lynden. With respect to the hospital, Kosevo hospital, first of

11 all I have a question for you. When you saw the Kosevo building, the

12 buildings, what physical state, condition, were they in? And I'm talking

13 about the exterior walls, the whole Kosevo hospital complex.

14 A. I first saw the Kosevo complex in May 1992. At that stage, there

15 was some damage to some of the buildings. I went back to the complex

16 which does exist of quite a number of buildings at different stages of the

17 war, and the damage to the buildings had only increased.

18 Q. Thank you for your answer, Baron. Do you happen to know that

19 there was a sports hall? Do you know about a sports hall which was called

20 the Zetra, Z-E-T-R-A, close to the hospital?

21 A. No, I'm not.

22 Q. Thank you, Baron. I should now like to show you a document, and

23 I'm going to ask permission from the Chamber for the usher to help us.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, will you.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I should like to specify for

Page 2198

1 the transcript that this is a document that we received from the set of

2 documents from the Prosecution. It is ours. 0046717 is the number.

3 Q. Baron van Lynden, with respect to that document which you have

4 before you, and perhaps I could give you a few moments to peruse it, and

5 then I shall be asking you some questions concerning the document.

6 Have you had time to look through the document, Baron?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Baron, I apologise for repeating myself, but yesterday

9 you said that you did not know that the Bosnian authorities had fired from

10 Kosevo hospital. Is that right? In order to clarify this, we have a

11 letter --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Already I think you explained extremely well what the

13 letter is about. It's part of the evidence.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

15 Q. Baron, during your stay in Sarajevo, did you have an opportunity

16 of meeting officials from the official press agency, the official Bosnian

17 press agency? That is to say, did you attend press conferences organised

18 by the Bosnian authorities?

19 A. I have never attended a press conference organised by the Bosnian

20 authorities, no.

21 Q. Thank you for your answer, Baron. However, you did indicate that

22 you had direct contacts with the authorities, and we come to your answer

23 with respect to the Butmir tunnel. Could you tell us at what level you

24 had contacts of that kind?

25 A. I had meetings with President Izetbegovic, Vice-President Arif

Page 2199

1 Ganic. Later on with Prime Minister Silajdzic, and others working within

2 the Bosnian Presidency.

3 Q. Thank you, Baron, for your answer. When you had these meetings at

4 the highest level, did nobody ever say that hospitals had been used as a

5 firing base by the Bosnian forces?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

7 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I would just like to remind my friend

8 what he asked yesterday just before the break. His question: "Baron van

9 Lynden, in your capacity of journalist this time, did you ever hear

10 mentioned that at one point or another, and more specifically in the

11 course of January 1993, that Bosnian troops had used a hospital for

12 military purposes?" And the answer was no. And I wonder what this

13 question would add to that.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I accept the objection. Thank

15 you. Let me rephrase the question.

16 Q. Baron van Lynden, did you also have contacts with representatives

17 of the UN authorities, the international organisations? And I'm referring

18 specifically to the UN.

19 A. Different parts of the UN in Sarajevo, but yes, I had contact with

20 UNHCR and with UNPROFOR.

21 Q. Thank you for your answer. And this brings me to my following

22 question: Throughout your sojourn in the city, you received information

23 from UNPROFOR in particular according to which the firing could have been

24 done by Bosnians from civilian buildings?

25 A. If a city is surrounded and you're defending a city, it is rather

Page 2200

1 difficult not to fire from amongst its buildings, if those are the front

2 lines. I mean, this argument never stood any ground with me. Nor did I

3 ever, in my time in Sarajevo - and I was not in Sarajevo in January 1993 -

4 ever receive a direct report from any UNPROFOR officer that the Bosnian

5 authorities had used the Kosevo hospital as a military base.

6 Q. I was talking specifically about civilian buildings, but thank you

7 for your answer.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you would -- perhaps this may

9 assist you. Mr. van Lynden, you testified, and it has just been read to

10 you yesterday, that you were not aware in your capacity as a journalist,

11 although you are always answering questions in your capacity as a witness,

12 that you didn't know anything about mortar fire fired from the Kosevo

13 hospital. Now you say, "I had no direct report from any UNPROFOR." Did

14 you have any indirect report?

15 A. No. No, I was just referring to the question, neither direct or

16 indirect.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't think

19 we have any further questions regarding that letter as it stands for the

20 moment. And as I said I would be brief, I am going to be brief, so that

21 is all from me, and I'll give Ms. Pilipovic the chance --

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... subsequently,

23 cross-examining the witness, I'll not make any objections since I do

24 understand the problems the Defence may have in preparing the audiences.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I should like to thank the

Page 2201

1 Chamber profoundly, especially as I have already specified that for the

2 coming witness, yet last night at 9.00 p.m., I received some changes to

3 that -- related to that particular testimony.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. van Lynden, good morning. Yesterday, during

8 your examination-in-chief, on line 11 at 9.16, you said that on the second

9 or third day in Sarajevo, you visited the former military hospital and

10 said that the hospital had been shelled. Could you please describe to us

11 now what the condition of the hospital was when you arrived and saw it?

12 And you did say that that was in May.

13 A. It was, indeed, in May, at the end of May 1992. The condition of

14 the hospital was that certainly the top eight floors had all been wracked,

15 both by gunfire, machine-gun, or rifle fire, and by heavier arms,

16 including artillery shells of one nature or another. I can't specify what

17 millimetres.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 At 9.50 hours yesterday, and this time line 14, you told us that

20 you were at Grbavica in a high-rise building where there were positions,

21 as you said, of the army of Republika Srpska, and that that was in

22 September. Could you tell us now, please, what high-rise building you

23 were in in September? Or let me rephrase that: Could you describe the

24 part of town you visited? Was it one high-rise or several?

25 A. We were taken to several different apartment buildings, and they

Page 2202

1 were in Grbavica.

2 Q. Can you tell us which floor you were on in the building when you

3 talked to the snipers and when you saw the dummy?

4 A. As I remember, the dummy was on the fourth floor. I remember also

5 being in one apartment on what I think was the second floor, a lower

6 floor. And another building, we were higher up, fifth or sixth floor.

7 Q. When you visited the snipers and when you were on those floors,

8 from those particular positions, could you see the positions of the army,

9 the BH army?

10 A. In as far as I was personally able to sit by one of the positions

11 and actually look out - one didn't do that for a great length of time -

12 and I couldn't clearly see any of the positions of the Bosnian Army, no.

13 Q. You told us at 9.55 hours, line 14, yesterday, and let me quote:

14 "When we were in those buildings, I did not see anybody fire, but I heard

15 the shooting." Is that correct?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Can you tell us, please, where you heard the shooting coming from?

18 A. On one occasion, within what sounded to us like within the

19 building we were in, one shot was fired.

20 Q. Did you hear shooting coming from the other side? When I say,

21 "the other side," I mean in respect to the side you were on, you were at?

22 A. While we were in the apartment blocks, not. While we were in the

23 streets of Grbavica before entering some of these buildings, yes, there

24 was firing. But when we were in the buildings, I was not aware of any

25 firing coming from the other side.

Page 2203

1 Q. While you were in the streets at Grbavica, I think you said that,

2 did you see any protection from the snipers that had been set up, along

3 the streets that you passed by, any protection, barriers or whatever?

4 A. Yes, on occasion, much like on the other side, blankets had been

5 hung down as a form of cover. As I remember, there were also some sandbag

6 positions. But at that stage, I did not see what I saw later inside

7 Sarajevo, which was the use of containers as protection against sniper.

8 Q. Could you describe for us what those protective devices or covers

9 or what it looked like? What was this made of? Because you said later on

10 that containers were used. So could you describe to us what was used?

11 A. As I said, blankets or tarpaulins were -- were hung down at

12 various places but usually only in narrower streets where they could be

13 held up on both sides so that people walking behind that would not be in

14 the sight of snipers on the other side. This was done, as far as I'm

15 aware, on both sides in Sarajevo.

16 Q. During the time you spent at Grbavica, did you happen to learn

17 whether that part of town had electricity and water?

18 A. While we were there, lights were on. So there was certainly

19 electricity, yes. As far as water is concerned, I'm not aware. I

20 don't -- I don't remember.

21 Q. You told us yesterday in line 18, at 10.09 hours, that the Serbs

22 held the elevations and that they were able to fire at the central part of

23 Sarajevo. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Could -- on the map that you used yesterday to answer my learned

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Page 2205

1 friend's questions, could you draw in the positions, those positions,

2 where they were, on the map you used yesterday, please.

3 A. All the way round Sarajevo?

4 Q. Yes, as far as you know and with respect to the areas you were

5 in.

6 A. Using the black again?

7 Q. Yes, please.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, just to be sure, the answer of the

9 witness was about the Serb-held elevations. That's not exactly posts. Do

10 you want the witness to draw what would have been a front line or posts?

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

12 like to have the witness show all the elevations for which he claims were

13 held by the army of Republika Srpska. Could he indicate those positions

14 on the map, the positions from which the Serbs fired at Sarajevo.

15 JUDGE ORIE: But I think the testimony was that from Serb-held

16 elevations that they were able to fire at a central part of Sarajevo. The

17 testimony was not that they did at this and that spot fire but because

18 they held these elevations that they were able to fire at the central part

19 of Sarajevo. And I think you're now asking something given, which as far

20 as I'm concerned is all right, but it's not a direct consequence of the

21 answer given by the witness yesterday.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may the witness be

23 allowed to indicate the elevations on the map held by the Serbs around

24 Sarajevo?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you want him to mark it, because that might

Page 2206

1 be easy, or with great circles or ...

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness could continue

3 by drawing in larger circles and with the numbers, the ordinal numbers

4 that he used when my colleague was asking the questions. Thank you.

5 Q. Witness, could you please place the map on the ELMO so that we can

6 all see it on our screens.

7 THE WITNESS: If I'm going to draw, Your Honour, if I'm going

8 to -- I mean, what they're asking for is a line all the way around

9 Sarajevo. It's simpler for me to do it here and then put it under the

10 light afterwards.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the other hand, the video will be kept in

12 the archives. So --

13 THE WITNESS: Whatever you wish.

14 JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps -- would it really be necessary,

15 Ms. Pilipovic? Couldn't the witness first indicate -- I mean, for

16 example, just talking around Mount Trebevic, if he would point at that?

17 We more or less know now where that is, so --

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness could first indicate the hills and

20 then, if necessary, mark it.

21 THE WITNESS: To answer the question as to a rough drawing of the

22 front line held by the Serbs --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. van Lynden, if you would perhaps first tell us

24 what elevations you are talking about, just giving the name and not

25 marking them yet so that we will see whether we are acquainted with these

Page 2207

1 hills or not and only if necessary to mark it.

2 THE WITNESS: This entire area where my hand is now --

3 JUDGE ORIE: How would you call that?

4 THE WITNESS: Well, this is still part of Sarajevo and then it

5 goes up onto Mount Trebevic, this area.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed with other elevations you --

7 THE WITNESS: Well, these are the only ones that I ever visited or

8 drove through. I was on the other side as well, but -- I'll turn the map

9 around.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And would that hill be known by any name to you, or

11 these elevations?

12 THE WITNESS: These elevations on the northern side, no. I don't

13 have any precise names of hills there. I visited places like Vogosca,

14 Krivoglavci I think it was called, Osijek where I saw Serb artillery, but

15 of elevations and the names of those elevations, I don't have them, no,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please, you may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, you spoke about Zuc hill yesterday. Can you indicate the

20 location of Zuc hill on the map for us, please.

21 A. Roughly here.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You may mark it, Mr. van Lynden.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Could you draw a circle around it, please.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 2208

1 JUDGE ORIE: And we were at number -- we haven't got the --

2 THE WITNESS: Five or six, Your Honour. I think the last I marked

3 was five in black.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So that would now be six then, Ms. Pilipovic?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You also told us yesterday that in 1992, in December to be

9 precise, the Muslims forces took control of that particular hill. Do you

10 know that BH army positions were on the hill?

11 A. I was taken by the Bosnians rather than the Muslims, because there

12 were also Serbs and Croats fighting in the Bosnian army, up onto Zuc hill,

13 and I was shown their positions, yes. And those positions were still

14 coming sporadically under mortar fire while I was up on that hill.

15 Q. While you were at those positions, could you describe the part of

16 Sarajevo that you could see from that area or, rather, can you see

17 Sarajevo at all from those positions?

18 A. From Zuc you cannot, no, or at least I was not able to while I was

19 up there.

20 Q. From Zuc hill, were you able to see the environs of the city of

21 Sarajevo?

22 A. The northern side to a degree, yes, but -- but you couldn't see

23 the city proper, in my recollection.

24 Q. You also said that you were with members of the BH army at Zuc

25 hill. Now I should like to ask you whether you visited any other

Page 2209

1 positions of the BH army in that area. Did they take you to Hum hill?

2 A. They did not take me to Hum hill, as far as I'm aware. We were

3 taken, as I said, to Zuc, and as far as I'm aware, I wasn't taken to other

4 positions. I may have been taken to Hum hill. The name doesn't mean

5 anything to me.

6 Q. You told us that you were at Trebevic. Can you mark in on the map

7 which positions they were, Serb army positions that you visited?

8 A. Not with any precision at all. It was along the road that led

9 from Pale to Lukavica, but I could not mark any precise positions on a map

10 of this sort. No. But it was on the road, along the road, from Pale to

11 Lukavica. So in this region.

12 Q. That portion of the road that you used to go from Pale, would you

13 consider that to be Trebevic?

14 A. Partially, yes.

15 Q. Would you consider that to be the foothills of Trebevic?

16 A. We never looked at it in detail in that manner, we just drove the

17 road. Nor did we have any kind of map of this sort.

18 Q. So you were not at Trebevic?

19 A. As I said, we took the road from Pale, and it went along Trebevic,

20 as far as I'm aware, and it ended up -- the road ended up at Lukavica.

21 Q. So you were in Lukavica?

22 A. Yes. I have been to the Lukavica barracks both in 1992 and in

23 February 1994.

24 Q. Can you please describe to us what part of Sarajevo can be seen

25 from the Lukavica barracks? What can you see from there?

Page 2210

1 A. Lukavica barracks is close to Dobrinja. As I remember, amongst

2 the buildings, you couldn't see very much of Sarajevo from there. I mean,

3 it was almost a front-line place, the front lines were very close. The

4 Dobrinja front lines were very close, but you can't look down into the

5 centre of the city from Lukavica.

6 Q. Could you see the elevations in that part of the city in relation

7 to Dobrinja from Lukavica? More specifically, could you see Mojmilo Brdo

8 from that area?

9 A. As far as I recall, one could not. But I have to add that what

10 one would do, one drove into the barracks. And it was not a place where

11 you simply walked around freely. I mean, you parked your car by a

12 building, and one went inside a building. One didn't wander around as one

13 would as a tourist anywhere because, as I said, it was close to a front

14 line. But as I -- as far as I can recall, I don't think that I could see

15 Mojmilo hill. Maybe I could, but I don't recall being able to.

16 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, were you, as a war correspondent,

17 ever informed that the Mojmilo hill is an elevation near the Butmir

18 airport and Dobrinja, and that the positions there were held throughout

19 that period by the BH army?

20 A. When I arrived in Sarajevo, Mojmilo hill was held by the Serbs, by

21 the Bosnian Serbs. It was only in June 1992 that I understand the Serb

22 soldiers on Mojmilo were driven away by the Bosnian Army. I think I said

23 yesterday, in relation to Dobrinja, that I went into Dobrinja, that that

24 trip was only possible after the Bosnian Serb soldiers had left Mojmilo

25 hill.

Page 2211

1 Q. So we can agree that in 1992, in June to be more specific, that

2 combat had been going on at the Mojmilo hill between the BH army and the

3 VRS?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. At line 11, at 11.06 hours --

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to apologise

7 if I'm not specific enough. I believe that this is the time. But let me

8 remind the witness. He spoke about the Marsal Tito barracks.

9 Q. Is that correct, that you spoke about the Marsal Tito barracks and

10 about the Serbian army leaving the barracks?

11 A. I'm not aware of the time I did so, but I'm aware of speaking

12 about the Marsal Tito barracks and the withdrawal of the Serb forces,

13 yes.

14 Q. Could you tell us at what -- when did that happen?

15 A. As I recall, it happened at the beginning of June 1992.

16 Q. You told us that the barracks had been targeted by artillery. Did

17 you see that?

18 A. After the withdrawal of the forces, the Bosnian Serb forces from

19 the Marsal Tito barracks, I saw several days of intense artillery and

20 multiple rocket-launcher fire on the Marsal Tito barracks, yes. I saw

21 this from the top floor of the former military hospital, now known as the

22 State Hospital.

23 Q. Did you see the positions from which the fire was opened on the

24 barracks?

25 A. You can't see at a distance where artillery fire comes from, in my

Page 2212

1 experience. So generally, the answer would be no. The only thing that we

2 were able to see is that right on this side, right at the top of the

3 mountain here, on the eastern side of Sarajevo, which was in view from the

4 top floor of the hospital, you could see rocket fire emanating there and

5 coming down on to the city. This is, I believe, the position that I was

6 then taken to in September 1992 by General Mladic for the interview that I

7 described yesterday.

8 Q. Can you indicate to us on the map the position that you are

9 talking about.

10 A. Again, I can do so only very roughly. It would be -- I imagine --

11 I don't know if the map goes far enough, but it was right at the top. The

12 last -- it was, for us, the horizon. After that, there was sky. But it

13 was visible directly from where I was in the centre of the city. The

14 positions were somewhere up here.

15 Q. Could you please make a mark and put in the number.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Could you please tell us what this area that you visited was

18 called.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the transcript, the witness marked 7.

20 A. You want the name, I take it, of where General Mladic took me to?

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. I'm not sure I was ever given a name. He never said, "I am taking

24 you to there and there." He just took us along.

25 Q. Did you later, during your stay in Sarajevo, learn what this area

Page 2213

1 was called? Because you told us that artillery fire had been opened from

2 that area.

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. During your stay in Sarajevo, were you able to see

5 that the Marsal Tito barracks was attacked by the territorial defence

6 which, as you have said, existed at the time in Sarajevo?

7 A. I'm aware that there was shooting between territorial defence or

8 other Bosnians and those inside the Marsal Tito barracks. But I never at

9 that time actually saw people shooting. By the time -- during the time

10 that I was in the hospital, I never directly witnessed fire going from

11 either one side or the other. But I heard from a distance, but I never

12 saw it.

13 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo as a war correspondent, did you have

14 any contacts or do you have any knowledge of the existence of paramilitary

15 formations in Sarajevo? Let me remind you, I'm speaking about Musan

16 Topalovic, Caco; Ismet Bajramovic, Celo; and Juka Prazina. Did you hear

17 about that and did you have any contacts with these people?

18 A. Yes, I was aware of them. And I met Juka Prazina.

19 Q. Did you have any knowledge as to where the headquarters of his

20 force was located and how many people there were in this unit?

21 A. I did go to one building. If it was his headquarters, I don't

22 know, but that's certainly where I met him on several occasions. How many

23 men?

24 And this is, Your Honour, in May and June 1992.

25 I had no further contact with Mr. Prazina when I returned to

Page 2214

1 Sarajevo in the autumn of 1992 or thereafter, but in the May, June, and

2 July period, I did. I went to one building where I met him on two or

3 three occasions, and as far as I am aware, although he never actually gave

4 a figure, there were maybe 200 or 300 men working under his command.

5 Q. Could you describe to us the uniform or, rather, what Mr. Prazina,

6 to whom you spoke, was dressed; and if you had seen any of his soldiers,

7 did they have any particular insignia?

8 A. The first time I met Mr. Prazina, he was wearing jeans and a

9 T-shirt, and he had been fairly severely wounded, and he had external

10 fixators, as I remember, at the top of his left arm and at the top of his

11 left leg. He was not wearing a uniform, and it was inside the building.

12 Nor did his men, as I -- as I can recall now, in the initial stages when I

13 encountered them, wear any particular uniform. Later on, many of them

14 were clad in black overalls. I don't remember any insignia.

15 Q. Were they armed?

16 A. Yes. They were, as you said, a paramilitary organisation;

17 therefore, they had arms.

18 Q. Could you please tell us how important it is for a war

19 correspondent to be objective and impartial? I mean, personal

20 impartiality, how important is it, according to you?

21 A. I believe that any journalist doing any kind of job strives to be

22 as objective as possible in the work that he does and to be as accurate as

23 possible, as he can be, in the work that he does.

24 Q. In your career, has it ever happened that an agency that you

25 worked for refused to publish your report in its original form?

Page 2215

1 A. No.

2 Q. In the course of your stay in Sarajevo as a war correspondent,

3 were you informed that there were prisons in Sarajevo? Did you know what

4 these locations were?

5 A. Yes, we were aware that there were prisons. We also asked the

6 Bosnian authorities if we could have access to these prisons in Sarajevo.

7 We were never given access. In other parts within Bosnia held by the

8 Bosnian authorities, we were given access. But I don't know, as far as

9 Sarajevo is concerned, any precise locations of the prisons, no.

10 Q. Could you identify the locations? Could you tell us which

11 locations you went to that you said were prisons and that the Bosnian

12 authorities allowed you to visit?

13 A. In February 1993, I walked through Serb lines into the enclave of

14 Gorazde and there we were taken into a prison, filmed and interviewed the

15 Serb -- Bosnian Serb prisoners held there.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you are questioning the witness now in

17 relation to prisons. I think prisons have not been part of the

18 examination-in-chief. I do not see at this moment, but please clarify

19 this to me if I'm mistaken, any credibility aspect as far as prisons are

20 concerned. So if it is the third part of Rule 90(H) which --

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Since the

22 witness spent quite a long time in Sarajevo --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then you have to explain to the witness what

24 the case of the Defence is in this respect. So at first you have to

25 indicate what the case of the Defence is in relation to prisons and then

Page 2216

1 you may put questions to him.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence, of

3 course, understands the Rule 90(H). My question for this witness will be

4 whether it is correct that there were prisons for Serbs in Sarajevo and

5 that these prisons were located in the Viktor Bubanj barracks in Silos and

6 in Tarcin and if he had any knowledge of the existence of these prisons.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question about prisons in Sarajevo has

8 been asked, but you continued talking about prisons elsewhere, because the

9 witness said -- his testimony was that he was not aware of location of

10 prisons in Sarajevo, that he had never access although he had requested to

11 get access, but he never had access to these prisons. So if you are --

12 first of all, I do not see in your pre-trial brief anything about prisons,

13 as far as I remember, but there again, my memory may not be good enough.

14 But I do not see what prisons outside Sarajevo - as you just indicated to

15 us that the case of the Prosecution was about prisons within Sarajevo -

16 how they could be relevant for the case of the Prosecution -- for the case

17 of the Defence.

18 Would you please -- Mr. Ierace, would you intervene? You may make

19 the observations you intend to make.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I only seek to assist by

21 observing that the wording of Rule 90(H) requires the Defence in this

22 case, that is, the cross-examining party, to put the nature of that

23 party's case to the witness only when it is in contradiction --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes. That's the second requirement. But since

25 I didn't see at all at this moment that this was relevant to the case, but

Page 2217

1 I do agree with you that I don't see any contradiction at this moment.

2 So, Ms. Pilipovic, apart from the contradiction aspect, also on

3 the other aspect that the relevance for the case of the Defence, as you

4 just explained it to us, doesn't seem to be there as far as I'm right in

5 understanding your questions, your case, and the testimony of the witness.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question asked by

7 the Defence will be rephrased in such a way that I will just ask the

8 witness whether he knew that there was a prison in the Viktor Bubanj

9 barracks in Sarajevo.

10 JUDGE ORIE: But he already answered the question that he was not

11 aware of any specific location. I think the question was repetitious

12 unless the witness now says he was mistaken and, hearing this name, he

13 would testify different. I would say that I'll not allow this repetition

14 of questions.

15 Mr. Witness --

16 THE WITNESS: I did not know the location.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the question has not been put to the witness

18 but nevertheless answered.

19 You may proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you.

21 Q. When you spoke about being at the VRS positions, could you please

22 tell me, what weapons did you see there?

23 A. Which positions are you referring to?

24 Q. I'm talking about the VRS positions that you said you had

25 visited.

Page 2218

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3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 2219

1 A. I visited a lot of VRS positions. I mean, on the mountain, it was

2 a different thing. On the hills, it was a different thing to inside the

3 city. Inside the city, I saw Kalashnikovs, sniper rifles, heavy

4 machine-guns and, behind buildings, tanks, armoured personnel carriers

5 with machine-guns mounted on top and --

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. I haven't finished. And anti-aircraft guns mounted on vehicles.

8 Q. Could you please tell me in what part of the town did you see

9 anti-aircraft guns?

10 A. In Grbavica and Hrasno.

11 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you visit Hrasno?

12 A. I testified yesterday that I did.

13 Q. Can you please show us on the map the location that you claim you

14 had visited and that you claim is, in fact, Hrasno?

15 A. I'm marking it with an 8, Your Honour.

16 Q. During your stay in Sarajevo, did you visit the Pere Kosorica

17 Square in Hrasno?

18 A. I'm not aware of any of the names of either the streets or the

19 squares that I visited.

20 Q. Can you tell us, Hrasno is adjacent to what part of the town?

21 A. To Grbavica.

22 Q. Did you have any knowledge of the fact that, throughout the

23 conflict in Sarajevo, Hrasno was controlled by the BH army?

24 A. Not in my recollection.

25 Q. Did you have any knowledge of the fact that the Pere Kosorica

Page 2220

1 Square was the line of demarcation between Hrasno and Grbavica?

2 A. No. As I've already said, I don't know the names of either the

3 streets or squares.

4 Q. Did you visit Hrasno during your stay in Sarajevo?

5 MR. WAESPI: Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

7 MR. WAESPI: He has testified several times that he has been

8 there, in his opinion.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is sustained.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

11 Q. In relation to Grbavica, could you draw in the confrontation line,

12 looking at Hrasno?

13 A. The line that you already see here is the rough line that I

14 recollect as being the front lines in this area. This is very rough, and

15 I'm -- that's as far as I can generally say that the front line went.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you very much.

18 We have no further questions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic. Before -- yes,

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It is

22 obvious that what we saw being produced under D27, the letter that we

23 tendered to the witness --

24 JUDGE ORIE: I may have spoken too quickly when I said that this

25 was evidence already since it still had to be admitted into evidence. The

Page 2221

1 objection raised has been denied. Is there any other objection?

2 Yes, Mr. Waespi.

3 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Your Honour. We object. There is no relevancy

4 of this letter to the testimony of this witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll decide on that after the break. And the number

6 will be D28, if admitted into evidence, because D28 is the next number, as

7 far as the Registry tells me.

8 Is there any -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that we would also

10 like to tender the actual statement of the witness that he referred to

11 during his testimony.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I asked at all occasions that the lines would be read

13 to him. And we earlier decided that the previous statements as a whole,

14 especially when they are not covered by the examination-in-chief or by the

15 cross-examination, would not be admitted into evidence. This would be an

16 introduction of previous statements which we --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I was just conferring

18 with my counsel. Okay.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Is there any need for re-examination,

20 Mr. Waespi?

21 MR. WAESPI: Just one question, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: One question.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Waespi:

24 Q. Mr. van Lynden, you said in answering one of the questions by the

25 Defence that Serbs and Croats were in the Bosnian Army alongside the

Page 2222

1 Muslims. How do you know that?

2 A. Because I met Serbs and Croats fighting in the Bosnian Army.

3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Your Honour. No further questions.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Waespi. So this concludes the

5 examination -- yes, of course. I have forgotten to ask my colleagues

6 whether they have any additional questions. My apologies.

7 Judge Nieto-Navia.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You described the protection used in Sarajevo,

11 the protection from snipers; blankets and containers and so on. Did you

12 see any similar protection or something used by the Serbs in Grbavica?

13 A. The question was put by the Defence attorney, and my answer was

14 yes. Not containers. In 1992, I did not see the use of containers. I

15 did see the use of tarpaulins, blankets, and such. This is usually in

16 fairly narrow streets so it can be connected by both sides of two walls to

17 be hung up.

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. And there was a question yesterday

19 about the civilian victims on the Serb side. And you said, as far as I

20 understood, that you never saw civilian victims there.

21 A. That is correct. We asked to be taken to a hospital or to a

22 clinic, but we were never taken on the -- those parts of Sarajevo held by

23 the Bosnian Serbs. They informed us that they had had civilian

24 casualties, but I never personally saw them.

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Did you see civilian casualties on the other

Page 2223

1 side, I mean in Sarajevo, in the city?

2 A. Yes, I did; very many. Because as I've also explained to the

3 Court, our base every night in Sarajevo when inside the city was the

4 former military, now the State Hospital. And I saw a lot of civilians

5 being brought into that hospital.

6 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then I might have one question to you as well. You

8 have told this Court about sniping from both sides. Can you make an

9 assessment of how intensive it was, one side compared to the other side?

10 Was it more intensive on one side, was it more intensive on the other

11 side, or was it equal? Could you please try to give an assessment of

12 that?

13 A. I can try, Your Honour, but I have to immediately say that I was

14 there with one television team, and I didn't have the kind of

15 possibilities to view it as an UNPROFOR commander would.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. I do not ask for any statistical

17 analysis, but what was your impression? And if you say, "I couldn't

18 possibly answer the question," please tell me.

19 A. I mean, my impression, our impression was that there was always

20 far greater capability on the Bosnian Serb side than on the Bosnian side.

21 Every type of weaponry was in demand in -- and there was a shortage on the

22 Bosnian side, and there was a clear predominance on the Bosnian Serb side.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And you're now talking about all the weaponry. As

24 far as sniping is concerned, is this true as well?

25 A. As far as I'm aware, yes.

Page 2224

1 JUDGE ORIE: And you're talking about the capacity, the capability

2 of doing things. Is that a theoretical assessment of capacity or was it

3 what you actually experienced while being there, by hearing, seeing?

4 A. From what we heard and saw.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. van Lynden -- yes, Mr. Waespi.

6 MR. WAESPI: I would like to ask that four Prosecution exhibits be

7 introduced into evidence at the conclusion of this testimony.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are now at the conclusion. We can deal with

9 that, I think, right away.

10 Madam Registrar -- let me just try and see. I think we started

11 with the black and white map 3644VL. That's the map as it has been marked

12 by Mr. van Lynden.

13 MR. WAESPI: Yes. That's correct, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then I also have 3647A, which is the footing that

15 goes with the video.

16 MR. WAESPI: Yes. That's the transcript.

17 JUDGE ORIE: That's the transcript of the footing of the video.

18 MR. WAESPI: Of the English version.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that would be -- Madam Registrar?

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3647A is the English transcript.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 THE REGISTRAR: And the Bosnian translation P3647A.1.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we've got now three exhibits and --

24 MR. WAESPI: And the video itself.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And the video itself. And that would be number?

Page 2225

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P3647.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -47. Then these exhibits are put into evidence.

3 Then we have D28 for the Defence, as far as I am aware of. That's

4 the letter of General Morillon. Yes. We had your objection, but it's --

5 I think it had been admitted already in evidence, or at least, it is now.

6 So this concludes the examination of Mr. van Lynden. Thank you

7 very much for coming. Usually I say to the witnesses "having come so

8 far," but I've got no idea how far you have come, but nevertheless, this

9 Court is grateful that you gave us the information asked by the parties

10 but of importance for the decisions to be taken by this Court. Thank you

11 very much.

12 Mr. Usher, would you please lead Mr. van Lynden out of the

13 courtroom.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ORIE: As I indicated yesterday, after the examination of

16 Mr. van Lynden, we'll just spend some time on the motion still pending,

17 but I think it should be done in closed session because there is some

18 confidentiality.

19 MR. IERACE: Before that occurs, Mr. President, might I

20 respectfully request that that oral argument take place after the break?

21 I need to speak to one of my colleagues to obtain some further

22 information. However, yesterday, Mr. President, you also reminded the

23 Prosecution of the requirement of the Trial Chamber that the Prosecution

24 submit a draft scenario so as to reduce the Prosecution case in a way by

25 which it will finish by early July.

Page 2226

1 Mr. President, if it is acceptable that the argument in relation

2 to videolink occur after the break, could I use the remaining five minutes

3 to say something in relation to the request by the Trial Chamber?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may, if you --

5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours. I wish to

6 make a few observations that may assist all of us in achieving a faster

7 trial. I commence with the paper, Mr. President, that you handed down

8 last week in which you calculated that the estimate of the Prosecution

9 case was now some 975 hours, which would take us until March of next

10 year. I note that the manner in which you arrived at that conclusion --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The arithmetics. I'm quite convinced some

12 criticism could be done about. It was just confrontative. So I'm not

13 that much interested in whether there are any smaller or bigger mistakes

14 in that. It is just to confront you that it might end this way, and I

15 would rather not make this calculation part of the debate.

16 MR. IERACE: That's not my point, Mr. President, I assure you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

18 MR. IERACE: I simply made the observation that it's based on the

19 witnesses we have heard so far. It may assist the Trial Chamber if I

20 explain the structure of the Prosecution case. Effectively, it is divided

21 four ways, that is, four discrete segments. The first segment is what we

22 had described as overview witnesses. The next witness will be the last

23 witness of that segment, that is, the last overview witness. There are

24 one or two witnesses who will emerge later in the trial who perhaps could

25 be characterised in that way, but essentially that will be it for

Page 2227

1 overview.

2 The second phase comprises witnesses who will give evidence in

3 relation to the scheduled sniping incidents. The third phase, the

4 witnesses in relation to the scheduled shelling incidents. The fourth

5 phase one could characterise as international witnesses such as UNPROFOR

6 officials, UNMOs, and the like. The relevance of the fourth phase is in a

7 large part to the command and control aspect of the accused.

8 So the reason I raise that estimate of 975 hours is simply that I

9 do not anticipate that the witnesses in the second and third phase will

10 take anything like the average period of time that the overview witnesses

11 have taken, particularly with the use of the video and 360 degree

12 photographs.

13 So, Mr. President, that's the first observation I make. Secondly,

14 the Prosecution, on the 25th of November last year, wrote to the Defence

15 and informed the Defence that as a result of pressure from the Pre-Trial

16 Chamber at that stage of proceedings, the Defence -- the Prosecution

17 proposed to call -- to put before the Trial Chamber evidence of 32

18 witnesses in the form of 92 bis -- Rule 92 bis statements. The Defence

19 responded to that by way of a formal filing in which it opposed the giving

20 of evidence in that fashion by all of the 32 witnesses.

21 A mission has taken place to obtain the statements of those 32

22 witnesses, or at least those who reside in Sarajevo. That mission was

23 completed last week. I anticipate that the statements will be provided to

24 the Defence by tomorrow, and they then have seven days to formally state

25 their objection. In other words, within a week, the Trial Chamber will be

Page 2228

1 in a position to make a ruling on whether approximately 30 witnesses will

2 be able to give their evidence by 92 bis.

3 JUDGE ORIE: If I just may comment on that. As you have seen from

4 my calculation, I started with 150 viva voce witnesses. That means that I

5 anticipated already to some extent that perhaps not all the witnesses

6 would be called or that there would be 92 bis witnesses. So I don't

7 know. Do you anticipate that the number of 150 would be considerably

8 lower, or...?

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the calculation assumes that the

10 Prosecution succeeds in having the witnesses it proposes to be called by

11 way of 92 bis in fact called -- their evidence given in that fashion. But

12 we don't know that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree that, in your scenario, of course, you are

14 still facing some uncertainties.

15 MR. IERACE: Yes. My next point, Mr. President and Your Honours,

16 is this: There have now been a number of occasions in which we have

17 discussed the application of Rule 90(H)(ii) to the cross-examination by

18 the Defence of Prosecution witnesses. Essentially, on the one hand, in

19 its pre-trial brief, the Defence has said, in effect, that the accused

20 denies that any of the forces under his command or control deliberately or

21 recklessly sniped and shelled civilians. If that happened, he didn't know

22 about it. On the other hand, we have had witness after witness who has

23 given eyewitness and hearsay accounts of precisely that behaviour. And

24 not once has it been put to those witnesses, as is required by Rule

25 90(H)(ii), that the evidence is inconsistent with the Defence case.

Page 2229

1 Now, Mr. President, given the request that you made of the

2 Prosecution last week, that does place us in a dilemma. On the face of

3 Rule 90, we are entitled to conclude that no part of the evidence so far

4 called is inconsistent with the Defence case with the exception of whether

5 SRK artillery units deployed the technique known as the "iron cross."

6 That, in my recollection, is the only aspect of the relevant evidence

7 which has even been questioned, and even that was not squarely

8 challenged. On the other hand, we have the Defence pre-trial brief

9 whereupon the evidence which has been called so far is challenged. In

10 order to tailor our case, we must have regard to what is still in issue.

11 And as I've said, we could rely on Rule 90 except for the existence of the

12 Defence pre-trial brief.

13 That to one side, the fact that evidence is not contradicted, does

14 not, of course, mean that it will be accepted by you, Mr. President and

15 Your Honours. We still have a burden to discharge to satisfy you on the

16 basis of credible evidence of the facts that we seek to prove.

17 Mr. President, it seems to me that the Prosecution is entitled to take

18 into account the attitude of the Defence to the evidence we have so far

19 called in spite of its pre-trial brief, but I would be grateful if

20 Your Honours and you, Mr. President, could provide us with some guidance

21 in relation to the contradiction of Rule 90 and the contents of the

22 Defence pre-trial brief.

23 My final point is this: I am grateful that in particular over the

24 last few days, as the Prosecution has led its witnesses to the relevant

25 portions, that is, the portions of evidence that one might suspect would

Page 2230

1 be in dispute, there has been little objection by the Defence to that form

2 of eliciting evidence. I propose to continue in that fashion, that is, to

3 use leading until such time that the Defence objects, so that we can get

4 quickly to the relevant issues.

5 Mr. President and Your Honours, by way of conclusion, one

6 suspects, having regard to the conduct of the Defence in its

7 cross-examination, almost by a process of elimination, that the Defence

8 does not dispute that there was widespread and systematic shelling and

9 sniping of civilians during the course of the tenure of the accused on the

10 Bosniak side of the confrontation line perpetrated by forces on the SRK

11 side of the confrontation line. One, perhaps, concludes that the real

12 issue here is the issue of command and control. One wonders whether, in

13 effect, the Defence has abandoned the first arm of my summary of the

14 Defence pre-trial brief. In other words --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I have a problem

16 with the interpretation in French that I am listening to. I don't know

17 whether it was said "Bosnian" or "Bosniak."

18 MR. IERACE: Bosniak.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was Bosniak. Could you

20 please tell us --

21 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. You are not questioning the

22 Prosecution. You said it was a translation problem. Mr. Ierace responded

23 to that.

24 Please continue, Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. That really does conclude

Page 2231

1 my observations and my request for some assistance in relation to one

2 aspect.

3 Could I respectfully submit that, since we are about to embark on

4 the second phase of the Prosecution case, that we wait until we have a

5 judgement on the 92 bis application. By then, we would have had a week of

6 the scheduled sniping incident evidence, and we may have a better idea as

7 to how the -- how much time that evidence is likely to take. In other

8 words, we may have an idea as to whether, as I anticipate, the Prosecution

9 case does significantly accelerate. Overview witnesses, by their nature,

10 are lengthy. They have much to say on many aspects of relevant evidence.

11 The same does not apply for scheduled sniping incident witnesses, with one

12 proviso. Many of those witnesses are in a position to give evidence about

13 unscheduled sniping and shelling as well. Depending on what, if anything,

14 Your Honours say by way of response to my request, it may be that the

15 Prosecution does not call from those witnesses the evidence which they are

16 in a position to give of unscheduled shelling and sniping incidents. In

17 other words, the Prosecution may, in that circumstance, be satisfied with

18 the evidence of the scheduled incident.

19 Mr. President and Your Honours, of course, in making these

20 comments, I am mindful that there is jurisprudence in the Tribunal that

21 schedules to an indictment are part of the indictment. In other words, it

22 is not easy for the Prosecution to not call evidence in relation to those

23 incidents. Of the 27 or 26 scheduled incidents, we have some 40-odd

24 witnesses, slightly over 40, I think, in a position to give viva voce

25 evidence. So there is a limitation on what we can do. If one assumes

Page 2232

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Page 2233

1 that there are 22 weeks, say 20 weeks, of evidence between the 1st of

2 February and the beginning of July, taking into account -- that takes into

3 account ten days for breaks and holidays, then I think one arrives at a

4 figure of some 400 hours of evidence. And that's based on the realistic

5 four hours per day, not four and a half. If one, then, divides that by

6 two, to allow for cross-examination time, that would leave the Prosecution

7 with 200 hours in which to conduct its examination-in-chief of its

8 remaining 150 witnesses, which I think, on my rough mathematics, leaves

9 something like one and a quarter hours per witness. Even with a speedy

10 remaining Prosecution case, that may be a little bit unrealistic. But on

11 the other hand, we may be able to get very close to it if, indeed, we move

12 quickly through the sniping phase. And next week should bear that out.

13 The first incident that I will call evidence in respect of will be

14 a little longer than the average if I go beyond the evidence strictly in

15 relation to the scheduled sniping incident. But even so, I don't expect

16 it will be anything like the average of the overview witnesses.

17 Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I think your observations are giving us

19 something to think about. And since we have a break anyhow at this

20 moment, we'll adjourn until 10 minutes past 11.00. We'll give proper

21 thought to your observations and might not come back to it right after the

22 break.

23 After the break, when we start at 10 minutes past 11.00, we would

24 like to have oral argument, but brief argument. Especially the Chamber

25 has some additional questions to the motion. And we then start in closed

Page 2234

1 session because of the confidentiality. And it's not my intention that if

2 the parties would like to make any additional observations apart from the

3 questions the Chamber may have, I would really limit that to 5 minutes

4 each party, not more. I think the most important things can be said,

5 roughly outlined, in 5 minutes. If then there's any additional time

6 needed, just let us know, and we can decide on whether we will grant you

7 some extra time.

8 So we'll adjourn until 10 minutes past 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

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11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just a couple

14 of words, and I do apologise. This has now become a litany.

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... we are now in

16 open session again. It is not relating to the motion, but is a part of

17 your litany, as far as I understand? Yes?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I wanted to indicate,

19 whether we are in private session or open session, this is, Mr. President,

20 just to say that, in relation to the witness who is about to appear, it

21 was only yesterday that we received, at 21.00 hours by fax, additional

22 statements or parts of additional statements that were modifying or adding

23 new elements to the previous statement. So it was really not possible to

24 discuss this.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you please inform the Chamber about

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Page 2247

1 what exactly it was.

2 MR. IERACE: Yes, certainly, Mr. President. I'm grateful to the

3 opportunity because it's an issue which has been alluded to by my friend

4 in the past.

5 Mr. President, in the course of briefing a witness who travels to

6 The Hague to give evidence, it often occurs that further relevant

7 information is provided by the witness to an investigator or a trial

8 lawyer which was not previously known to us. By "relevant information," I

9 mean information which is either relevant to our reciprocal disclosure

10 obligations or Rule 68 exculpatory material or material which the

11 Prosecution may want to use. It is important if the Prosecution learns

12 such information, even at the last minute, that it makes the Defence aware

13 of it. We choose to do that in writing so that the Defence may have no

14 complaint as to the detail of that last-minute information. That is what

15 my friend is referring to.

16 For convenience, I describe the sheets that contain this

17 information as supplementary information sheets; therefore, the Defence

18 does not receive such a sheet in relation to all witnesses. Many of those

19 witnesses where we have last-minute relevant information which they would

20 want to know about, by its nature, it will be the day before or the

21 morning of the witness giving the evidence. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. I do understand it's

23 last-minute information. Of course, the question is whether it should

24 have been last-minute information or whether it could have been obtained

25 at an earlier stage. So we cannot assess at this moment. We'll see what

Page 2248

1 happens.

2 And if at a certain moment this additional information,

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is such that you feel, apart from the general part of

4 your litany but more specifically, that you have not had a good

5 opportunity to prepare for cross-examination of the witness, then of

6 course, please indicate to us. And if you then need additional time with

7 General Galic, then please let us know.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

9 believe that we are going to proceed differently, if you'll allow us. I

10 noted the reference that my learned colleague, Mr. Ierace, made to

11 Rule 68. And this is specifically about the exculpatory material in

12 respect of General Galic, and I thank you for this submission. And we

13 shall see how we will have this explained to us, these conditions, in

14 which respect of these elements are exculpatory to General Galic. Thank

15 you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see that. The reference has been made to

17 Rule 68, so we'll see how this works out.

18 Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the next witness. Who is

19 going to examine the witness, Mr. Ierace?

20 MR. IERACE: I will examine the witness, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.

24 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

25 JUDGE ORIE: At least you are replying, so I do assume you can

Page 2249

1 hear me in a language you understand. Mr. Hvaal, if I'm not mistaken.

2 THE WITNESS: I think I'm hearing the wrong translation.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then, please -- I think Channel 4. This is

4 no commercial, but Channel 4 is the right one I think. Yes?

5 The rules require you to make a solemn declaration at the

6 beginning of your testimony, Mr. Hvaal. The text will be handed out to

7 you by the usher. Would you please make that declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You'll first be examined by the

11 Prosecution who called you as a witness. Mr. Ierace, proceed. And you

12 may be seated.

13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 WITNESS: MORTEN HVAAL

15 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

16 Q. Sir, is your name Morten Hvaal, spelled H-V-A-A-L?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Were you born and educated in Norway?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are you a photojournalist by occupation?

21 A. I am.

22 Q. In the last 16 years, have you covered numerous armed conflicts

23 throughout the world?

24 A. Since 1982, to be precise.

25 Q. And were those conflicts in many countries, including the former

Page 2250

1 Yugoslavia, various states in Asia, the Middle East, and Africa?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And, of course, Europe.

4 Did you first travel to Sarajevo during the armed conflict in

5 April of 1992?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Did you stay there a short while and then return in June 1992?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. Did you essentially, thereafter, stay in Sarajevo until sometime

10 in 1997?

11 A. Yes, with breaks. But I was basically based in Sarajevo for that

12 period of time.

13 Q. In relation to breaks, between September 1992 and August 1994,

14 were you ever away from Sarajevo for a period of longer than a month?

15 A. Perhaps on a few occasions, but not more than six weeks to two

16 months ever, no.

17 Q. Again, between September 1992 and August 1994, what was the

18 reason, if any, for you being in Sarajevo?

19 A. To cover the conflict as a photojournalist working on assignment

20 for the Associated Press.

21 Q. In the context of your employment, did you from time to time make

22 observations and speak to individuals on the Bosnian Serb side of the

23 confrontation lines?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. Was there a particular protocol that you observed when you wished

Page 2251

1 to undertake such activities?

2 A. On most occasions, yes.

3 Q. Did that protocol involve initially seeing someone at Pale?

4 A. Normally, you would need some sort of clearance from the press

5 centre at Pale.

6 Q. Was that known as the Pale Press Agency?

7 A. Yes, it would -- it might have been. I'm not a hundred percent

8 sure of the actual name.

9 Q. As it happened, was the person in charge of such matters at that

10 centre or agency the daughter of Radovan Karadzic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thereafter, if the nature of your contact with the Bosnian Serb

13 side was military in nature, did you go from Pale to the Lukavica

14 barracks?

15 A. On most occasions, yes.

16 Q. If it involved something of a political nature, did you go

17 somewhere else?

18 A. Probably to Ilidza.

19 Q. I'll ask you some questions about the contact of a military

20 nature. What would happen when you arrived at Lukavica barracks?

21 A. You would normally be taken for a briefing, sometimes referred to

22 as a "press conference," depending on the number of journalists present.

23 But it would usually be in the form of a briefing, yes.

24 Q. After the briefing, would you thereafter travel to various

25 positions on the Bosnian Serb side of the confrontation lines?

Page 2252

1 A. Sometimes. Yeah, most of the times we would do that.

2 Q. When you did that, were you accompanied by any Bosnian Serb army

3 officials?

4 A. Usually officers. Well, a fairly large group, I would say.

5 Several vehicles, perhaps a dozen people altogether, including security.

6 But there would be officers and other military personnel present.

7 Q. When you say "officers," do you mean military officers, that is,

8 ranking officers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Of what army?

11 A. Of what we referred to then as the Bosnian Serb army, yes.

12 Q. On how many occasions during the conflict, first of all - and by

13 that, I refer to the dates of April 1992 until the end of 1995 - did you

14 travel around the Bosnian Serb side of the confrontation line?

15 A. It would have to be an estimate of about a dozen.

16 Q. On how many occasions did you undertake such trips, approximately,

17 between September 1992 and August 1994?

18 A. Eight, ten, something like that.

19 Q. During those visits, did you make any observations of artillery?

20 A. Well, we would see artillery positions, usually from afar. We

21 would be taken to positions where we believed there to be artillery that

22 we had requested to go to. Usually you would find an artillery position

23 without a piece of artillery.

24 Q. Where did your information come from typically which led you to

25 request that you were taken to a particular site with the expectation of

Page 2253

1 seeing artillery?

2 A. One of the best sources of information would be the UN --

3 United Nations Military Observers' radio frequency, which was open for

4 anyone to listen to, and they actually gave rough map references as to

5 where outgoing and incoming fire was occurring.

6 Q. When you went to such sites and discovered there wasn't artillery

7 present, did you observe any signs that in the recent past there had been

8 artillery present?

9 A. Frequently, you would observe tracks. You would find empty shell

10 casings, obviously sandbagged positions, that sort of thing.

11 Q. In relation to, in a general sense, being on the Bosnian Serb side

12 of the confrontation line, in particular at high elevations over Sarajevo,

13 what observations, if any, did you make as to the clarity of the view of

14 the city, that is, on the other side of the confrontation lines?

15 A. Depending on weather, the view of the city would be amazingly

16 clear. You could easily find streets, buildings, and on a good day you

17 might even recognise vehicles.

18 Q. Did you ever have any conversations between September 1992 and

19 August 1994 with members of the Bosnian Serb army in relation to the use

20 of artillery?

21 A. Yes, on several occasions, yes.

22 Q. Were you ever given an explanation as to the purposes that the

23 artillery was used for?

24 A. They would normally be referred to purely defensive.

25 Q. On any occasions between those dates of September 1992 and August

Page 2254

1 1994, were you ever offered an opportunity to make some use of artillery

2 in those positions, that is, on the Bosnian Serb army side of the

3 confrontation line?

4 A. Well, on the rare occasions where there would actually be an

5 artillery piece in the position, usually a smaller calibre mortar, for

6 instance, yes, we'd be offered to fire the weapon, jokingly perhaps.

7 Q. Can you take us to any particular example that comes to mind of

8 that happening?

9 A. Trebevic, I think in 1993.

10 Q. What was the nature of the artillery on that occasion?

11 A. I think that was a 105 millimetre howitzer, a towed howitzer.

12 Q. What direction was the howitzer pointing when you had the relevant

13 conversation?

14 A. Well, it was pointing at the city centre. It's hard to tell

15 because of the elevation, obviously, what the actual aim is, but ...

16 Q. Who was it that made the offer to you?

17 A. On that occasion, I think it was an officer. Yes. It was an

18 officer who seemed to be in charge of this particular artillery position.

19 Q. I don't expect you to recollect his exact words, but can you give

20 us some sense of what it was that you were told he said?

21 A. Well, I think I was offered to pull the lanyard on this weapon.

22 Q. What is the lanyard?

23 A. The lanyard is a piece of rope that is attached to the trigger, if

24 you will, on an artillery piece. That's what actually -- there isn't --

25 you know, on this piece of -- this type of weapon there isn't an actual

Page 2255

1 metal trigger. You use a rope to fire it.

2 Q. In what language was he speaking?

3 A. Probably German. I would guess German. I'm not a hundred per

4 cent sure about the language situation. There could be somebody there

5 translating. I wouldn't recall.

6 Q. And what was your response, if any?

7 A. I declined, yes. And then I also -- and this was sort of standard

8 reply, obviously for professional reasons, from our point of view, is to

9 ask, "What would we hit if we fired the weapon?"

10 Q. Did you ask that standard question on that occasion?

11 A. I'm reasonably sure that I did, yes.

12 Q. Do you recollect the answer?

13 A. The answer was standard or very typical answer, which is they

14 would refer -- they would say, "Turks."

15 Q. "Turks"?

16 A. "Turks," yes.

17 Q. What was your understanding, if any, what was meant by the use of

18 the word "Turks"?

19 A. Well, one would assume that they were referring to Bosnian

20 Muslims, Muslims.

21 Q. Did you have any sense of what would have happened if you had in

22 fact pulled the lanyard?

23 A. That was never really an option.

24 Q. You mean in your mind or do you mean in relation to whether you

25 would have been permitted to do so?

Page 2256

1 A. I obviously don't know if I would have been permitted to do so.

2 It certainly wasn't an option, from my point of view. It's ...

3 Q. Were you ever made this offer that you've told was made on a

4 number of occasions in relation to small arms or machine-guns or

5 anti-aircraft weaponry or anything of that nature?

6 A. Yes. It's fairly common. That was fairly common, especially

7 small arms weaponry. It could happen during these formal -- well, formal,

8 but yeah, these formal visits that were organised or just passing

9 checkpoints on the way going in and out through Serb lines or trying to go

10 in and out through Serb lines, and you might be on some checkpoint asked

11 if you wanted to fire.

12 Q. You told us that for professional reasons you asked a standard

13 question to the effect, "What would I hit if I do so?" or something of

14 that order; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And what were the range of answers that you typically received to

17 that question, if indeed there was a range?

18 A. Anything from the -- I don't remember exactly -- the exact word in

19 the local language, but there was a reference to "Turks." There would be

20 "terrorists," there would be -- what else? Yeah. Not very accurate

21 terms. I mean, you never -- very rarely was the other side referred to

22 as -- as the Bosnian government army or anything like that. It was

23 usually referred to as some sort of -- yeah. There was an emphasis on the

24 Muslim, you know, angle on this.

25 Q. Were you ever taken to what appeared to be sniper positions?

Page 2257

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On how many occasions, approximately, between September 1992 and

3 August 1994?

4 A. Depending a little bit on how you define "sniper position." A

5 sniper position can be a man with a gun, obviously, who's hiding and

6 firing at -- or wanting to fire at somebody. But I'd say, you know, a

7 more organised sniping position just a few times. I mean, less than five

8 times. It's rough, I'm sorry. I can't give you an exact estimate.

9 Q. That's all right. On these occasions, having regard to your

10 earlier evidence, were you accompanied by an officer of the Bosnian Serb

11 army?

12 A. Not necessarily. The -- there is an emphasis on discretion when

13 you move into a sniper position, and you very often go -- very often, but

14 you would go alone with somebody taking you up into the position, or

15 indeed the sniper, as it were, himself would take you to show you his

16 quarters, yeah.

17 Q. On the occasions or occasion that a sniper would take you himself

18 to show you his quarters, where would you make contact with the sniper in

19 the first place?

20 A. Usually as part of a visit to, you know, the area that the

21 position was in.

22 Q. When you say a "part of a visit," you mean part of a visit with an

23 officer?

24 A. Yes, definitely. There was no way you could move around on

25 Bosnian Serb -- what we referred to then as the Bosnian Serb army-held

Page 2258

1 territory without an escort. We were -- I don't recall hearing of

2 journalists ever moving around. I'm sure someone has at some point been

3 able to do this, but I've never heard of a foreign journalist ever

4 travelling around Bosnian Serb areas without an official escort and

5 without having gone through the proper procedure or a procedure in advance

6 of that. And there would be officers present during these trips, yes.

7 Q. And an officer who would join you at Lukavica?

8 A. For instance.

9 Q. Any other places?

10 A. Well, there was a Serb -- Bosnian Serb army liaison officer in

11 Sarajevo airport for a large part of the war. I don't recall if we would

12 go directly from there or then via Lukavica and/or Pale or Ilidza or

13 whatever, but I think visits could be arranged through him. But these

14 procedures changed all the time. There was always a new piece of paper

15 that had to be signed or a new, you know, fax number that you had to send

16 a fax to. I mean, all -- you know, it's a fairly bureaucratic approach,

17 and it was fairly -- I mean, very often declined. It was very rare that

18 you would actually get, you know, a permission to visit, you know, on your

19 first attempt.

20 Q. All right. Just in relation to your evidence that you were taken

21 to sniper positions or did go to sniper positions on the Bosnian Serb army

22 side, did you ever go to any high-rise positions, that is, sniper

23 positions in high-rise buildings?

24 A. I went to building in -- buildings in Grbavica.

25 Q. When was that?

Page 2259

1 A. That would have been the winter of 1993. Either late 1993 or

2 early 1994. It wasn't actually possible to go there. I mean, 1992, 1993,

3 it would have been deemed too dangerous because the fighting was so

4 intense. And I think only in late 1993 was it -- did it actually become

5 possible to go to Grbavica without taking a tremendous risk.

6 Q. I think you mentioned "buildings." That is plural. What do you

7 mean by that?

8 A. There were, as far as I recall - well, I think they are still

9 there - a number of high-rises in Grbavica.

10 Q. And what was the proximity of these buildings to each other, that

11 is, the high-rise buildings?

12 A. They were pretty close together. I think in a line maybe, oh, 50

13 to 100 metres apart, something like that, no more.

14 Q. How many in the line?

15 A. I'm not sure if it's exactly in a line, but lined up sort of.

16 Four perhaps.

17 Q. What, approximately, were the number of storeys? Well, first of

18 all -- I'll withdraw that.

19 Did each of the four or so high-rise buildings appear to have the

20 same number of floors? In other words, were they about the same height?

21 A. Yes, I think so.

22 Q. Did they appear to be part of the same development? In other

23 words, did they have similar appearances, one to each of the others?

24 A. Yes. It has to be pointed out here that these were the sort of

25 buildings you normally would not want to see very clearly, for obvious

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Page 2261

1 reasons, when you were on the Bosnian government side.

2 Q. And approximately how many storeys were they?

3 A. Oh, at least 10 or 12, possibly more.

4 Q. Having regard to your second to last answer, do you mean that they

5 had a certain reputation or do you mean something else?

6 A. You were -- and I was frequently fired at myself, going past those

7 buildings because it was, especially in -- well, throughout 1992 and 1993,

8 before there was any effective anti-sniper measures from the UN or any

9 other party, they basically controlled a large chunk of the road that you

10 had to travel to get to the western part of the city. So it was a case of

11 picking up as much speed as you could in your car and going past there as

12 fast as you possibly could.

13 Q. And on what side of the confrontation line do you mean in terms of

14 where you were at the time that this happened --

15 A. Sorry.

16 Q. -- that you would be shot at?

17 A. I would on the Bosnian government side, going past these buildings

18 heading east or west past them. And it was a fairly reliable thing. I

19 mean, you could -- I remember on one occasion actually making a bet inside

20 an armoured vehicle as to whether the same sniper would hit the car coming

21 back as they did when we went past it going out. And indeed, the sniper

22 did.

23 Q. In your mind, were you left with any doubt as to the source of the

24 fire?

25 A. If you add up the reports from UNMO's observation that you could

Page 2262

1 make at a greater distance where you could -- in the beginning, the

2 snipers were not very professional. Actually, you could see dust, smoke,

3 even muzzle flashes partially because there was no one to engage them.

4 They were basically at liberty to operate in a fairly relaxed manner and

5 so on. Yes, it was pretty easy to figure out where it was coming from.

6 Q. So at a later point, you found yourself inside one of those same

7 buildings?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did you see?

10 A. A fairly basic sniper position, not a very sophisticated one,

11 heavily sandbagged, also probably with pieces of, you know, concrete

12 blocks, things that had been removed from walls, used as well as cover.

13 And then various types of weaponry, nothing extremely sophisticated. And

14 a few people who obviously sort of, you know, occupied this house or --

15 it's basically a combination of two rooms usually that creates a sniper

16 position.

17 Q. All right. You've said that this was late 1993 or early 1994.

18 Whenever it was precisely, after that visit, did you at any time have the

19 same experience of being shot at when driving past those buildings?

20 A. Oh, yes, certainly.

21 Q. On this occasion that you were taken there, was there a Bosnian

22 Serb army officer with you?

23 A. On the -- outside the building, definitely, there would have had

24 to have been.

25 Q. In terms of accompanying you on your visit.

Page 2263

1 A. Yes. But if he actually came with me into the building, I

2 wouldn't know. I really don't remember.

3 Q. All right. Had he taken you to the buildings?

4 A. Yes. There was no way we would have been able to go on our own.

5 In Grbavica, highly contested area, close to the line of confrontation,

6 you're exposed -- you're very much exposed when you travel there, and

7 there's no way we would have been allowed to go on our own anywhere near

8 those buildings.

9 Q. On that occasion, were you taken there pursuant to a request from

10 you or their initiative or what?

11 A. I honestly don't remember. It might have been as a result of a

12 request because this was one of the -- it's a very -- because of the

13 extent of the sniping that was going on, it was a very important part of

14 the story. So we always tried to get as much information about it as

15 possible. So it might have been after repeated requests, yeah.

16 Q. All right. Now, in relation to the position of these apartment

17 blocks, I think you've told us they were approximately in a line, and

18 there were about four, 10 or 12 storeys high. Can you think of any

19 landmarks that were nearby so we can establish the position?

20 A. Let me see. Unfortunately, being a photographer doesn't mean that

21 you have a photographic memory. There is a stadium in that area I think

22 called Grbavica stadium, which is I think behind -- to the south of those

23 buildings.

24 Q. You mean immediately to the south, or to the south and to the west

25 or to the south and to the east? Or if you're not sure, please say so.

Page 2264

1 A. I'm not sure. I couldn't, you know...

2 Q. All right. In relation to Grbavica, were there any other

3 high-rise apartment blocks nearby other than these four, or was there

4 something reasonably unique about them?

5 A. Not in the immediate area, no, as far as I remember. Just add to

6 that, when you're actually inside a position like that, inside a building

7 like that that is so close to the front line, you don't have much of a

8 view. I mean, you basically see the small area that is targeted by the

9 sniper. All the other buildings -- in an area like that, in a building

10 like that, that close to the confrontation line, you don't go past open

11 windows that allow you a view. So it's fairly disorientating when you're

12 inside it.

13 Q. I think you said earlier that you drive past the buildings many

14 times with some degree of apprehension as to what would happen to you.

15 And on numerous occasions, you, in fact, received rounds that came from

16 those buildings. So from that perspective, from the other side of the

17 confrontation line, approximately where were these four buildings?

18 A. They were -- well, obviously to the south of the main road,

19 going -- you'd have the -- it wasn't far -- you would have the Marsal Tito

20 barracks more or less on your right when you went past there.

21 Q. Is that when you're heading west or east?

22 A. When you're heading west.

23 Q. So at the time that the apartment buildings were on your left, you

24 would have Marsal Tito somewhere to your right. Is that the position?

25 A. Yes, roughly. I mean, I can't remember exactly the relation, but

Page 2265

1 it's in that general area, yeah.

2 Q. Now, whilst you were in one of those buildings, did you observe

3 any weaponry?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did you observe?

6 A. I think on that occasion, I saw an M-84, general purpose

7 machine-gun.

8 Q. To your knowledge, was that known by another name, locally and

9 colloquially?

10 A. Yes. I think I'm not going to attempt the local --

11 Q. Translation, perhaps.

12 A. But the translation, something like the death sower or death

13 spreader. We got different versions of that. But I'm not going to

14 attempt the local name because I can't remember exactly what it's like.

15 It's a -- how shall I say? It's based on the Kalashnikov design, somewhat

16 larger, fires from a belt. In this case, would have been fitted with a

17 scope and was probably -- it was on a bipod rather than on a larger tripod

18 or mount.

19 Q. What was the sound that the death sower made?

20 A. It's fairly characteristic, fairly sharp. It depends on whether

21 you're on the receiving end or the other end. But being fired at by it is

22 a very frightening experience. It makes a very loud noise. The sound of

23 the rounds going past you is very loud. They have fairly high velocity.

24 It's quite confusing because there is what we call a high-velocity snap as

25 the round goes by, and that occurs before you hear the sound of the gun

Page 2266

1 firing. So it can be quite confusing, yeah.

2 When they're actually firing it, or if you're near it being fired,

3 it's so deafening that you don't really -- it's a lot louder than a

4 Kalashnikov, for instance.

5 Q. You used the word, I think, "characteristic" -- excuse me a

6 moment. Your words were, "It's fairly characteristic, fairly sharp."

7 A. Mm-hmm.

8 Q. Having regard to those words, did you feel that you could

9 distinguish when a death sower was being fired as opposed to another

10 machine-gun or another type of weapon?

11 A. Depending on distance, you know, terrain, buildings, there's all

12 kinds of factors. But if you have, you know, an AK-47 fired from the same

13 position as an M-84, you'll be able to tell the difference -- most people

14 would be able to tell the difference. The M-84 has a slightly higher rate

15 of fire if it's fired on full automatic. And the sound of the incoming

16 rounds is, you know, a lot more. You know, the AK-47 fires a fairly slow

17 round which you don't hear that well when it comes in, unless it impacts

18 on something.

19 Q. All right. Now, amongst your photojournalism activities, in

20 recent years, have you set up a consultancy specialising in hostile

21 environment training and operational support?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Does that involve you and others, including military experts,

24 providing training to other journalists, nongovernment organisation

25 representatives, on how to survive in a hostile environment and in a

Page 2267

1 combat situation?

2 A. Indeed.

3 Q. Do you consider that you have any particular expertise in this

4 area?

5 A. Certainly have a lot of experience, and real experience, not just

6 from training. I mean, I've covered something like a dozen, or worked in

7 something like a dozen war zones. I've made a lot of mistakes and learned

8 from them, hopefully. I'm still here. I try to keep myself up to date on

9 what happens in, you know, various conflicts and in the world of military

10 operations. And I study cases of journalists being hurt or killed very

11 thoroughly in order to find out if there's anything that can be learned

12 from those things.

13 Q. Incidentally, in that regard, given the large number of previous

14 conflict situations you attended, did you notice anything different in

15 Sarajevo, that is, casualties amongst journalists?

16 A. I think there was a perception, and I think an accurate

17 perception, amongst most of us who had experience from previous conflicts

18 that this was the first conflict in which media personnel -- recognisable

19 media personnel were actively targeted.

20 Q. When you say "recognisable," did you have a vehicle between

21 September 1992 and August 1994 whilst you were in Sarajevo?

22 A. We had several, but the Associated Press -- I brought the

23 Associated Press's first armoured vehicle into Sarajevo in September of

24 1992.

25 Q. What type of vehicle was it? Not what brand; was it a truck or a

Page 2268

1 sedan or something else?

2 A. It's a -- well, it can easily be described as a pickup version of

3 a Land Rover.

4 Q. What colour was it?

5 A. It was white.

6 Q. Did you place any markings on it?

7 A. It had bright orange fluorescent tape markings all over it,

8 basically.

9 Q. Did they depict any characters or numbers or anything?

10 A. We used -- it's very hard to tape the words "Press"; it takes a

11 long time. So we used the words "TV" instead. And basically, the entire

12 sides of the vehicle, bonnet, roof, back of the car, would be covered with

13 the word "TV".

14 Q. So the four sides and the roof?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You notice -- first of all, before you placed the tape on the

17 vehicle, did it ever come under fire?

18 A. Well, the car was marked when we arrived.

19 Q. All right. Had you had vehicles before that one arrived?

20 A. Oh, yes, definitely; soft-skinned, normal -- regular rental cars,

21 yeah.

22 Q. In any event, you received that one in September 1992. Did the

23 vehicle ever receive any fire?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. With what degree of -- on more than one occasion?

Page 2269

1 A. On -- it was basically -- I think it's still in existence today,

2 and it looks like a Swiss cheese basically live. It has holes, impacts.

3 Part of the car is not armoured. It's only the cab, you know, where the

4 passengers sit that is armoured. So the engine room and the back of the

5 pickup is soft skin aluminium, and that is more or less perforated by

6 incoming fire, shrapnel.

7 Q. Perhaps we could go to an example in relation to this. Was there

8 an incident which occurred in the fall of 1994 where the vehicle was shot

9 at involving a --

10 A. I'm sure there were many.

11 Q. All right. Involving a water point in the form of a well?

12 A. We took the -- yes. We went to --

13 Q. Before you go into the detail --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- did you start that experience with you being at Kosevo

16 hospital?

17 A. That's right, yes.

18 Q. And was there a reason why you were at Kosevo hospital?

19 A. We probably went to Kosevo hospital because we heard either the

20 arrival of ambulances or we heard firing, you know, more than the usual

21 amount of firing somewhere. It's a fairly routine -- it was a fairly

22 routine, you know, thing to visit the hospitals several times a day to

23 keep tabs on what was going and certainly where it was going on, because

24 you go there, you'd actually find out where the casualties had come from

25 and then be able to assess whether or if it was worthwhile going there in

Page 2270

1 order to find out what had happened.

2 Q. Is that what happened this time?

3 A. It was indeed, yes. There was casualty there who had been taken

4 from this area.

5 Q. Could you describe the casualty that arrived at the hospital?

6 A. I think it was a man who had been hit in the abdomen, as far as I

7 recall.

8 Q. What sort of clothing was, if any, he wearing when you saw him?

9 A. No. I wouldn't be able to recall exact details of his clothes.

10 Q. All right. And --

11 A. He might have been -- no. I mean, there was -- I think he was a

12 fairly young man. I'm not a hundred -- I think he was a fairly young

13 man. He was probably wearing blue jeans and sneakers and a T-shirt.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly request that counsel

15 make pauses between question and answer. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hvaal, I would also like to draw to your

17 attention that the interpretation may have some difficulties since you are

18 in a very quick conversation with the -- with counsel for the

19 Prosecution. So would you please look at your screen and wait until it

20 stops moving before you're answering the question.

21 THE WITNESS: Certainly. Certainly. I wasn't aware of that.

22 I'll keep an eye on it. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. IERACE:

25 Q. Did you go to where you understood he had been wounded?

Page 2271

1 A. We did, yes.

2 Q. What did you see when you arrive at that position?

3 A. We saw -- well, we went to a -- I think a well in the location in

4 Sedrenik which was -- there's a well just by the road, on the lower side

5 of the road.

6 Q. Did you see any people?

7 A. Yes. There were people there hiding. I think -- yeah. There was

8 a building or some sort of structure there, and I think there were people

9 hiding there and down in the actual well because there was fire coming

10 from the other side of the road.

11 Q. Whereabouts on the other side of the road?

12 A. It was within -- you could see a known Bosnian Serb army position

13 called -- that was referred to -- by us as Sharp Stone feature because we

14 couldn't pronounce the local name. And I would estimate that to be 300 to

15 400 metres away.

16 Q. What was the topography of Sharp Stone?

17 A. Sharp Stone is what it sounds like. It's a cliff-like formation

18 basically, and it usually had a flag on top of it, or often had a flag on

19 top of it.

20 Q. Being a cliff, I take it there was the ground above the cliff and

21 the ground below?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Whereabouts was the front line in relation to the cliff?

24 A. Below the cliff.

25 Q. How far from the base of the cliff? Approximately.

Page 2272

1 A. Not very far, but that was a very -- it was a dodgy area that

2 because of the topography being -- it was very steep in that area, and you

3 didn't actually have sort of a trench or a marked front line. This is to

4 my recollection, but as far as I remember, it was a matter of firing

5 positions, well-dug-in firing positions rather than an actual sort of

6 manned front line, as it were, because it would be impossible to keep any

7 kind of personnel in the -- you know, below that point itself.

8 Q. All right. Having regard to your evidence so far, do I take it

9 that the cliff top was 300 to 400 metres away from where you were?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. And fire was coming from the cliff top?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you -- withdraw that. Whereabouts was the fire arriving?

14 A. The fire was -- oh, when we arrived -- we heard shots when we

15 arrived. People were hiding. We then drove -- or we waited. I can't

16 remember if we went past it and then waited in a better position where we

17 wouldn't be so exposed or if we stopped before we became exposed and

18 waited, but I think we waited for a few minutes to see, you know, what was

19 going on.

20 Q. All right. If I could just stop you there. You've told us about

21 the group of people.

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 Q. Were any of them wearing any military-type clothes?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were they one sex or both sexes?

Page 2273

1 A. Both sexes. I assume -- they'd probably be mostly female.

2 Q. Do you remember whether any of them appeared particularly elderly

3 or particularly young?

4 A. I don't think there were any children as such there, but older

5 people, definitely.

6 Q. Do they appear to have been engaged in an activity?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was that?

9 A. They were collecting water.

10 Q. So did you at some point bring your vehicle to a position close to

11 them?

12 A. We decided to investigate what had happened and also to try to get

13 some photographs, and in order to achieve that, I decided to park the

14 vehicle or stop the vehicle in the position that would shield the water

15 point from this incoming fire as much as possible. This was an armoured

16 vehicle.

17 Q. And did something happen shortly after you did that?

18 A. Well, my interpreter got out of the car first, and as I was

19 getting out, a round impacted in the windshield of the car.

20 Q. What was the nature of the glass in the windshield?

21 A. It was bulletproof or armoured.

22 Q. Did the round penetrate the windshield?

23 A. It did not, thankfully.

24 Q. Did you notice something about the force of the round?

25 A. It was powerful enough to make the car, which weighs several

Page 2274

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Page 2275

1 thousands kilos, rock on its suspension.

2 Q. Whereabouts were you in relation to the impact point on the

3 windscreen at the time the bullet hit? And would you please wait a moment

4 before you answer.

5 A. I was inside the vehicle, on my way out. I was probably -- well,

6 my head would have been fairly close to the impact.

7 Q. All right. Now, was this the vehicle with the TV markings?

8 A. It was indeed, yes.

9 Q. You said you used bright orange; is that correct?

10 A. Bright orange, sort of what the Americans refer to as DayGlo tape.

11 Q. Did you persevere with driving a marked press vehicle?

12 A. For some time. It was a matter of principle, obviously, but

13 eventually we gave up on that and attempted to sort of -- sort of adopt a

14 more generic large, white nondescript vehicle that could be a NGO, a UN,

15 an embassy, anything like that to sort of create a little bit more doubt

16 as to what the exact nature of our business was.

17 Q. Right. And finally in relation to this incident, you've said it

18 was, or you've agreed it was in the fall of 1994. Can you be more precise

19 as to when this incident occurred?

20 A. It would have been early in the fall because it was still -- the

21 weather was still warm.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, do you wish me to continue? I note

23 the time. I'm happy to continue.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If this would be a suitable moment for you for a

25 break -- I should have indicated that earlier, I think. It's half past

Page 2276

1 twelve. So if this would be a suitable moment, we will then adjourn until

2 ten minutes to one.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

6 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

7 Q. Sir, you've told us that you were the recipient on numerous

8 occasions throughout that period, from September 1992 to August 1994, of

9 small-arms fire. Did you make any observations as to whether civilians,

10 that is, people who appeared to be civilians, were targeted in the same

11 period, apart from the incident that you've just told us about?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. With what degree of frequency? How commonplace was it?

14 A. You mean people being targeted or actually being hit?

15 Q. Being targeted.

16 A. Being targeted, more or less every day, if not every day.

17 Q. Do you mean by that that you observed that more or less every day,

18 if not every day?

19 A. If you moved around in downtown Sarajevo in that period, and as a

20 photographer, most of your work consisted of driving around or walking

21 around looking for, you know, whatever was going on, you would observe

22 people being fired at with small arms. I would say every day you go out,

23 you would observe that at some point, yeah.

24 Q. Did you come to any conclusion or form any opinion as to whether

25 civilians were deliberately targeted or not during that period?

Page 2277

1 A. I would say they definitely were.

2 Q. Now, you've told us that you observed such things virtually on a

3 daily basis. How often were they successfully targeted? In other words,

4 how often, on your observations during that same period, were civilians

5 actually hit by small-arms fire deliberately?

6 A. You mean that I was personally there to see?

7 Q. Firstly, that you were there personally to see.

8 A. I wouldn't be able to give you a number, but it's... Depends on

9 how accurate -- I mean, if I actually have to see the impact, or if I

10 arrive a half a minute later or -- it's very difficult to get --

11 Q. In rough figures, firstly, seeing the impact.

12 A. Seeing the impact of people actually being fired at, or hit, I

13 must have seen that on - I don't know - several dozen occasions.

14 Q. Several dozen.

15 A. Yeah. I wouldn't be able to give you an exact answer on that.

16 Q. I appreciate that. But again, approximately, what would be the

17 number where you either saw them hit or arrived within minutes of them

18 being hit, in that same period?

19 A. "Within minutes," you mean up to --

20 Q. Say half an hour.

21 A. Up to say half an hour. Oh, 50 to a hundred times probably. I

22 mean, one of the most essential parts of our work was to try and, you

23 know, get an idea of what the sniping situation was.

24 Q. All right. Now, would it sometimes happen that you would simply

25 come across such incidents?

Page 2278

1 A. Frequently.

2 Q. Was there an incident which occurred -- withdraw that. Was there

3 such an incident which occurred in the winter of 1993, that is, towards

4 the end of 1993 or the beginning of 1994, when you were driving along

5 Marsal Tito Boulevard and you saw a woman who had been hit?

6 A. Could have happened -- I mean, that would have happened on several

7 occasions.

8 Q. All right. Let me be more specific.

9 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown a bundle of photographs

10 which are marked P3625. I have copies for my friends and for Your

11 Honours. I think they have already been distributed. It is a bundle of

12 five photographs.

13 Q. Sir, would you please go through the five photographs, and you see

14 one which shows -- appears to show two men lifting a woman by her arms

15 either on to or off a stretcher.

16 A. Yes, I can see that.

17 Q. All right. Would you please place that photograph on the overhead

18 viewer. Did you take that photograph?

19 A. I did indeed.

20 Q. Do you remember when it was you took the photograph?

21 A. It would have been in the winter of 1993, 1994.

22 Q. Where were you when you took it?

23 A. This is outside the morgue at the Kosevo Hospital.

24 Q. Can you tell us the story that goes with that photograph, sir.

25 A. This is -- I came across this woman. I was driving in an armoured

Page 2279

1 Land Rover, heading east, I believe. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but

2 probably heading east. When I came to --

3 Q. On what road, if I could interrupt?

4 A. On the Marsal Tito Boulevard, yeah. I came to one -- there's two

5 intersections that were particularly notorious for sniping in that area.

6 It would have been one of those.

7 Q. Could you tell us the names of these two intersections?

8 A. I can't remember the names of -- I think one was -- I can't

9 remember the names of the streets now. I'm sorry. It's -- but it's the

10 two streets that form an "A" that go up towards the Olympic stadiums.

11 Q. When you say "go up towards," do you mean in a northerly

12 direction?

13 A. In a northerly direction, yes.

14 Q. Right.

15 A. It was on one of those intersections, and I came there and this

16 woman had been hit in either her lower abdomen or in one of her legs. She

17 was in the street, still conscious and moving but not really going

18 anywhere.

19 It's very hard to hear inside an armoured vehicle if there are

20 rounds coming in, so you have to assume that there are. I decided that in

21 order to try to facilitate -- there were other pedestrians in the area.

22 Q. What were they doing, if anything?

23 A. They were, at this point I think, taking cover or trying to

24 organise some sort of rescue effort. I'm not a hundred per cent sure if

25 they were out in the street yet or if they were sort of shouting to her to

Page 2280

1 try to go into cover, because this is one of many incidents like this.

2 Usually it's a matter of a short time before someone runs out, and this is

3 what you have to try to keep -- you know, prevent people from doing

4 because very often then you have another casualty and then it just

5 escalates into a very difficult situation.

6 Q. Why would you have another casualty when someone runs out to

7 assist a wounded person?

8 A. It's a pattern of the sniping at civilians in Sarajevo that the

9 first victim would be shot in such a way that they would be wounded. Very

10 often also the patient -- you know, victim doesn't die right away, as long

11 as it's not, you know, a direct hit in the head, and the sniper would then

12 wait for people to come out and try to help. Now, obviously the more

13 people who are injured, the slower the rescuing process becomes.

14 Q. All right. If you can just spell it out. When you say more

15 people would be injured --

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. -- and you say that the sniper would wait, what do you mean

18 exactly?

19 A. There was a pattern of not, to put it crudely, finishing off

20 victims that had been hit but to wait for help to arrive and then fire at

21 people trying to help.

22 Q. So rather than deliberately shoot to kill the first victim, do you

23 mean deliberately shoot to wound the first victim so as to encourage

24 rescuers to attend the scene and then shoot the rescuers?

25 A. I think in the first -- it's probably giving the snipers too much

Page 2281

1 credit to say that they were consciously shooting to wound rather than to

2 kill. It's a fairly difficult craft, so they'd be probably lucky to hit

3 in the first place. But the average -- you know, the normal regular

4 impact from one small-arm bullet is not going to kill instantly unless it

5 hits the victim in the head or in one of the vital organs. So if you aim

6 low, basically, the person will live for some time, even if, you know, he

7 or she is hit in the abdomen.

8 So I'd say there was a pattern of aiming low perhaps and then not

9 firing at, you know, an injured casualty several times, rather to wait for

10 another person or several people to arrive.

11 Q. And then to shoot at those people?

12 A. And then to fire at them. And this could sometimes turn into a

13 fairly macabre situation where you would have several casualties as a

14 result of this and no effective means of evacuating them.

15 Q. Now, as you approached this woman who was lying in the road and

16 apparently still alive, was there anything about her appearance which

17 indicated to you her status in terms of being civilian or military?

18 A. Well, she was a lady, I'd say, in her -- well, judging in the

19 photograph as well, probably in her 60s, late 50s, early 60s perhaps.

20 She's wearing a fur coat, as far as I remember, or at least, you know --

21 not very tall, longish hair. Yeah. Make-up.

22 Q. And what -- sorry. Carry on.

23 A. No. She's wearing make-up, and I mean, she's easily identified as

24 a female, elderly female.

25 Q. Did you form any view as to her status, as to whether she was

Page 2282

1 civilian or military?

2 A. I would assume that she was a civilian.

3 Q. So what did you do after you saw her there?

4 A. Well, I tried to put the car into a position where it would again

5 provide some sort of cover.

6 Q. Cover from where?

7 A. Cover from the south.

8 Q. What was to the south?

9 A. The south you would have -- what is to the south right there? I

10 can't remember the name of the location, but there is a hill. It probably

11 goes up towards -- I can't remember the name of that location, I'm sorry.

12 Q. What was the significance to you? What was the importance of

13 providing cover --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and the witness please make

15 pauses between question and answer.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You heard the request from the translation

17 booth to make more pauses between questions and answers.

18 A. Would you please repeat the question?

19 MR. IERACE:

20 Q. Yes. What was the reason that you wished to provide her with

21 cover from the south?

22 A. Because that would be the direction that the incoming fire was

23 coming from.

24 Q. What side of the confrontation line would the incoming fire have

25 come from?

Page 2283

1 A. In that area, you had a -- if you stood where she was lying, you

2 could see Bosnian Serb-held territory.

3 Q. Did you form a view as to where the fire had come from in terms of

4 which side of the confrontation line?

5 A. Not -- I mean, in this particular case, I was too busy trying to

6 be of assistance. But there was a -- I mean, this intersection, as,

7 indeed, both of those two intersections that I mentioned, were fired at

8 daily. And the firing came from the same location all the time. It

9 was -- this had been investigated by the UN; it had been investigated by

10 every possible means. And yeah, it was pretty -- we assumed that it was

11 coming from BSA-held territory.

12 Q. You mean by that that your assumption was based on the

13 investigation results as you understood them?

14 A. And, of course, the sort of ballistic facts, yeah.

15 Q. Such as?

16 A. Such as impacts in vehicles when you drive past, the markings on

17 the ground. At this stage, I think there were some freight containers

18 that had been put up in this area. However, they were more or less empty

19 and bullets travelled through them easily. And you could, you know,

20 without too much ballistic knowledge, find out where the bullet was coming

21 from just by looking through the two holes, that is, if you dared.

22 Q. Did you ever do that?

23 A. Not personally, no.

24 Q. Coming back to this incident, can you tell us what happened as you

25 went to place your vehicle in a way that offered her protection from the

Page 2284

1 south?

2 A. Before -- in these situations, there was always a lot of shouting

3 and, you know, people were obviously arguing about what to do. Everyone

4 knew the risks of going into the street. People didn't -- most civilians

5 didn't quite have an understanding of the armoured vehicles in the sense

6 that they would provide reasonably effective cover. So it always took a

7 little while before you could, you know, effectively intervene. But to my

8 recollection, she was hit again before we could actually get her to

9 safety.

10 Q. Where were you when she was hit again?

11 A. I think to the west of her.

12 Q. Were you still in your vehicle?

13 A. I would have been, yeah, I think so.

14 Q. What did you actually see that informed you that she had been hit

15 again?

16 A. This one was hit directly, I think, in the back of the head. I

17 think so.

18 Q. Do you notice anything by way of blood at the time of impact?

19 A. There was a clearly visible impact in her head.

20 Q. What did you actually see?

21 A. Blood, brain matter spraying from the impact. Yeah.

22 Q. All right. And how far away from her were you, approximately,

23 when she received the hit to the head?

24 A. 10 metres.

25 Q. 10 metres?

Page 2285

1 A. Roughly.

2 Q. All right. Now, what did you do then?

3 A. Well, we continued the process that we had started. I mean, I

4 then moved the car further forward. As I did that, I think another car --

5 a local civilian car arrived and basically did -- picked her up and --

6 yes. She was picked up by the people, I think, in that car that stopped.

7 Q. All right.

8 A. To my left, it would have been, yeah.

9 Q. Did the car go somewhere?

10 A. It went to Kosevo Hospital.

11 Q. Did you follow it?

12 A. I followed it to provide cover because you're exposed to some of

13 the same positions when you go up that hill. You can actually get fired

14 at from behind a fair distance, going up that hill.

15 Q. And whereabouts were you when you took the photograph?

16 A. It's -- this is the entrance to the morgue at Kosevo Hospital.

17 Q. Who were the two men?

18 A. The two men I think are people who... At least one of them works

19 there. I'm not sure about the other one.

20 Q. All right. Now, did you have occasion to go to cemeteries in the

21 same period of time, that is, between September 1992 and August 1994?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How often would you attend cemeteries in that period?

24 A. Several times a week.

25 Q. Why?

Page 2286

1 A. It's -- it was a dramatic photographic visual documentation of the

2 impact that this was having on the population in the city. It was a good

3 way of keeping track of casualties. And unfortunately, it was often a

4 good way of getting a measure of how -- how shall I say? When I arrived

5 in June 1992, I was told that they were -- the Bosnian Serb army were

6 shelling funerals. I went to find out for myself, and it turned out to be

7 true.

8 Q. How many times, approximately, during that same period of time did

9 you personally witness funeral processions being shelled?

10 A. Again, depends on your definition of "shelling."

11 Q. Shells arriving either amongst a funeral procession, that is, in

12 the midst of a funeral procession, or within a distance of, say,

13 50 metres?

14 A. 50 metres is probably a bit close. I wouldn't be here if I had

15 experienced many of those. But --

16 Q. I'll rephrase the question. On how many occasions in that period

17 of time did you witness what you believed to be the deliberate targeting

18 of funeral processions or funerals?

19 A. 20 to 30 times, as an estimate.

20 Q. All right. Would you please go again to the photographs which are

21 Exhibit P3625. And select -- take from them the photograph which appears

22 to show a woman swinging an axe in a cemetery. Could you please place

23 that photograph on the overhead viewer.

24 Did you take that photograph?

25 A. I did, yes.

Page 2287

1 Q. When?

2 A. That would be in the winter of 1992, 1993.

3 Q. Why did you take the photograph?

4 A. For several reasons. It shows with some degree of clarity a large

5 number of fresh graves. If you examine it more closely -- I don't think

6 you can see it on the screen. But if you examine it closely, you'll see

7 all of those graves are marked 1992 or 1993.

8 It shows that there's a funeral going on in the background. And

9 then, probably most importantly, it shows the level of desperation

10 involved for this woman who is cutting down this tree and chopping it into

11 firewood.

12 Q. Did something happen shortly after you took this photograph?

13 A. A mortar shell landed.

14 Q. Where?

15 A. Between the woman and the funeral procession or the actual

16 funeral.

17 Q. And approximately how far did that shell land from the funeral

18 party?

19 A. Roughly halfway between the two. That would mean 75 metres,

20 perhaps.

21 Q. After that mortar shell landed, did something else happen of a

22 similar nature?

23 A. I think the funeral party dispersed, took cover, or moved off or

24 tried to, and I think -- yes. I'm pretty sure that another round came in,

25 but that would have fallen far or sort of on the other side again, further

Page 2288

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Page 2289

1 down the cemetery.

2 Q. Was there any apparent reason as to why, if indeed it was

3 targeted, it would have landed there, further down the cemetery?

4 A. Assuming that they were indeed trying to hit the funeral party,

5 this would have been what's known as bracketing, meaning that if you can

6 see that one round falls short, you then try to make the other round

7 further out.

8 Q. All right. Now, just to clarify the degree of recollection that

9 you have of this, how many mortar rounds do you actually remember falling

10 during this incident?

11 A. At least two.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. I don't know how long I sort of stuck around. I mean, it's not --

14 not the most pleasant, you know -- I do remember that the woman didn't

15 leave. She stayed for the entire thing. She didn't even take cover.

16 Q. Did you say anything to her about that?

17 A. I urged her to take cover.

18 Q. Did she say anything in response?

19 A. She swore, I suppose, at the assumed direction from where this was

20 coming.

21 Q. You mean the direction or the people?

22 A. The people, I suppose. Yes. I mean, she used words that, with my

23 limited knowledge of the language, would indicate that she was not happy

24 with the people who were firing the weapon.

25 Q. All right. You say that she didn't take cover. What did she do?

Page 2290

1 A. She kept -- she kept on chopping wood.

2 Q. She kept on chopping wood. All right. Now, you've told us that

3 you've observed the shelling of funeral parties on a large number of

4 occasions during that period. Did you ever find yourself in immediate

5 danger on any of those occasions? Perhaps I should say in a greater

6 degree of danger than you were on that occasion.

7 A. Yes. I think there were times where the shelling came even closer

8 than that, yes, but it's -- this particular cemetery is so-called Lion's

9 Cemetery, and it eventually became impossible to go to during daylight

10 hours, and we avoided it for that reason. But as -- I mean, there are

11 many reasons for that, but, yeah, it was -- covering cemeteries became

12 eventually something that was considered to be very dangerous, yes.

13 Q. Indeed, did you notice that funerals, after awhile, took place at

14 night rather than --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- rather than in daylight hours?

17 A. By the -- I'd say by the end of 1993, that had become the rule.

18 Only in exceptional cases would funerals be held in daylight.

19 Q. Now, will you please go back to the group of photographs, and this

20 time take from the bundle and place on the overhead projector photograph

21 marked last five numbers 5592 [sic]. When did you take that photograph?

22 A. That would have been in 1993.

23 Q. What does it show? In other words, what are the people doing?

24 A. These are people running from sniper fire.

25 Q. In the background, there appear to be a number of vehicles. One

Page 2291

1 in particular appears to be a pickup-type vehicle with some items on the

2 roof of the cabin. Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I think it's blue and white, and it's facing you while you take

5 the photograph, approximately.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What type of vehicle was that?

8 A. That type of vehicle was commonly used as an ambulance.

9 Q. Can you recollect or can you recognise what make of vehicle it

10 was?

11 A. This one is probably a locally made car, like a Yugo or a

12 Zastava.

13 Q. You say that -- that the vehicle was an ambulance. What were the

14 objects on the cabin roof?

15 A. They were blue lights or -- yeah, I think blue. I can't remember

16 the colour, but lights.

17 Q. Typically when the ambulance was carrying patients, would the

18 lights be operating or not?

19 A. Usually not, to my recollection. The main way of moving -- the

20 thing is, all vehicles had to serve as ambulances when there was an

21 incident. Whatever vehicle was closest would basically pick up the

22 casualty and take them to hospital, because there was no means of

23 communication so that an ambulance could be called.

24 Now, the reason this one is sitting here is because this is a

25 known area for sniper activity, and they are actually waiting in case

Page 2292

1 there is a casualty that has to be evacuated.

2 Q. During that same period of time, from September 1992 until August

3 1994, did you ever observe ambulances marked as the one in the photograph

4 to be hit by small-arms fire?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Rarely, occasionally, frequently, or what, in terms of how often

7 that would happen?

8 A. It's hard to -- I mean, basically all cars could be fired at at

9 any time when you were in an area that was exposed to incoming fire.

10 Whether or not the vehicle was marked to appear as an ambulance didn't

11 seem to make any difference. I certainly never noticed there being a

12 changed in behaviour when it came to ambulances or nonambulances, as it

13 were.

14 Q. Would you please now place on the overhead projector

15 Photograph 5583. When did you take that photograph?

16 A. In 1993, I believe in August, September -- no, a bit later. The

17 autumn of 1993.

18 Q. Where were you when you took it?

19 A. Inside what we referred to as the French hospital.

20 Q. What were the nature of her injuries?

21 A. She had -- at this point, she is in a coma. She has been hit

22 by -- she has multiple trauma from shrapnel -- mortar shrapnel.

23 Q. For the sake of the transcript, I think the photo depicts what

24 appears to be a young girl lying on a bed with a doll in the area of her

25 fingers and some tubes leading to her body.

Page 2293

1 Did you make any inquiries as to how she came by her injuries?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did you learn?

4 A. That she had been struck by shrapnel from a mortar impact.

5 Q. Did you discover whether there were any other casualties from the

6 impact?

7 A. I believe she was with her mother and another woman at the time,

8 and that her mother was killed, possibly also the other woman.

9 Q. Did you discover where they were at the time of the mortar impact?

10 A. I think in Novi Sarajevo, but I'm not sure. I can't recall

11 exactly. I wasn't there when the mortar incident happened.

12 Q. I appreciate that. Did you learn her name?

13 A. Her name was Irma Hadzimuratovic.

14 Q. As a result of your photograph, did this instance, this young

15 girl, attract a great deal of international publicity?

16 A. It did indeed.

17 Q. Is that because you reported that doctors had told you that,

18 without treatment that they could not provide, she would die?

19 A. We were told that she was -- they were unable to do anything other

20 than keep her alive for a short period of time, and that she was also

21 tying up important resources that they could use for cases that could

22 actually be saved. And that there were a number of other children in

23 similar situations. The doctor actually urged us --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Simply, Mr. President, I

Page 2294

1 believe that we see a very -- a perfect example of a leading question.

2 And I don't think I heard the witness say, but I can check it, that the

3 doctors -- the doctors had told him that before, before it was suggested

4 to him by the counsel for the Prosecution.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I confess to leading. It was

6 deliberate on my part for the reasons I explained earlier.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 MR. IERACE: And ultimately, as my experience transpires, there is

9 no contest --

10 JUDGE ORIE: There is an objection to it. Please rephrase.

11 MR. IERACE:

12 Q. All right. What were you told, if anything, by her treating

13 doctors as to her prognosis?

14 A. We were invited by her doctor to come and see her in the first

15 place. And we were told that her prognosis under these conditions, with

16 no running water, no electricity, no heating, and very basic medical

17 equipment, was very poor, that she would die within a short period of

18 time. We were also told that there were many children in similar

19 condition in the various hospitals in Sarajevo. And we were urged by the

20 doctor and other members of the hospital staff to report on this situation

21 so that the world's attention might be drawn to it.

22 Q. As a result -- withdraw that. Did you do that? In other words,

23 did you report on this particular girl and the circumstances as explained

24 to you by her doctors?

25 A. We did, indeed. We filed a story about her and this, or very

Page 2295

1 similar photograph, I believe, that same day.

2 Q. As a result of that, was she transported to the United Kingdom for

3 treatment?

4 A. She was evacuated to the United Kingdom, and this started -- this

5 prompted the United Nations to organise a larger evacuation of I think

6 several hundred wounded children from Sarajevo that happened in the days

7 and weeks after this story became sort of a major issue.

8 Q. Did she survive?

9 A. Unfortunately, no.

10 Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions about Kosevo Hospital.

11 Where were you living in Sarajevo during that same time period, September

12 1992 to August 1994?

13 A. Either at a hotel or a motel called the Motel Belvedere, which is

14 located in Visnjik Street. And then eventually, from late 1993, I had my

15 own flat further up on Visnjik Street in Number 24.

16 Q. How far was the Hotel Belvedere from the nearest point of the

17 Kosevo Hospital?

18 A. Say, about a hundred metres.

19 Q. You've told us earlier that a modus operandus that you employed

20 was to attend the hospital when you heard horns or sirens because that

21 often indicated the imminent arrival of casualties. Do you remember

22 giving that evidence?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was that something that you could hear from where you resided when

25 you were at the Hotel Belvedere?

Page 2296

1 A. Yes. And we also had our office at the Motel Belvedere, so we

2 were basically there, somebody from the Associated Press was there

3 24 hours a day.

4 Q. Could you also hear those sounds from where you moved to further

5 up the street?

6 A. Yes, but I was basically only there for a few hours in the middle

7 of the night.

8 Q. All right. As a result of hearing horns and the like from

9 Belvedere Hospital [sic] in particular, did it happen that you often

10 attended the hospital at about the same time that casualties arrived from

11 time to time during that same period?

12 A. Frequently.

13 Q. Did you notice -- withdraw that. On any such occasion, did you

14 make any observations as to whether there was any incoming fire apparently

15 in that vicinity?

16 A. There was frequently incoming fire in and around the hospital

17 grounds. It often increased with the level of activity.

18 Q. With the level of what sort of activity?

19 A. Vehicles arriving and leaving, people being carried on stretchers

20 from building to building. Yeah, that sort of ...

21 Q. What sort of fire do you mean?

22 A. The hospital would be -- I've personally seen mortars of various

23 sizes landing there, and howitzer rounds. I've even seen 155,

24 155-millimetre howitzer rounds impacting very near to the hospital, and I

25 think tank rounds as well.

Page 2297

1 Q. Have you ever observed casualties, that is, any persons being

2 injured by incoming fire, be it shell-fire or small-arms fire?

3 A. Several times. There was one incident, I think, in -- there were

4 several incidents where hospital staff and patients were -- were wounded.

5 There was -- yeah. There were several incidents when that happened. I

6 remember seeing at least one of them arriving just after -- or being

7 there, in fact, when the building was hit and by, I think, a large

8 heavy-calibre howitzer round, and at least some nurses and a doctor or at

9 least hospital staff were killed during that incident.

10 Q. And to be clearer, were you present when that happened?

11 A. I was present when the round impacted. I didn't actually see the

12 people being hurt because it was a couple of floors up in the building and

13 it wasn't considered safe to go there, so -- but we saw the dead bodies

14 afterwards, if that's --

15 Q. When was that?

16 A. That would have been in -- the winter of 1993, 1994, I think.

17 Q. Did you ever observe or hear what appeared to be outgoing fire

18 from the vicinity of Kosevo hospital?

19 A. No, not -- it can be hard to determine the -- you know, the

20 location of small-arms fire sometimes, but no heavy calibre weapons.

21 Q. Did you ever observe or hear what appeared to be the firing of

22 mortar rounds from in or in the vicinity of Kosevo hospital?

23 A. How -- what is "the vicinity" here?

24 Q. All right. Well, let me rephrase the question.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2298

1 Q. What is the closest position to Kosevo hospital that you have seen

2 or heard what you believe to be outgoing mortar fire?

3 A. At least a hundred metres.

4 Q. On how many occasions?

5 A. You're saying seen or heard.

6 Q. Yes. Heard what you believed to be --

7 A. Yeah. Maybe on a dozen occasions, something like that. I

8 wouldn't -- I'm not a hundred per cent sure here that these are --

9 normally would be mobile units rather than fixed positions.

10 Q. Could you describe to us what a mobile mortar unit was?

11 A. In this case, it would be a mortar in the back of a Volkswagen

12 Golf.

13 Q. And do you mean fired from the back of the Volkswagen Golf?

14 A. No. You would lift it out, put it on the ground, fire off a few

15 rounds, and put it back in the Golf and leave. Or any vehicle, obviously,

16 but leave, yeah.

17 Q. Did you develop the ability to determine the approximate size of a

18 mortar by either the sound of it being -- firstly, by the sound of it

19 being fired?

20 A. Again depending on circumstances, but, yes, if you had a

21 comparative and if you had been listening to it often. I wouldn't be able

22 to do it now, I don't think, but at the time certainly, yes.

23 Q. Did you, firstly, form any view as to whether on these occasions

24 it was always the same size mortar?

25 A. Not really.

Page 2299

1 Q. Did you ever actually observe the mortar being fired in those

2 circumstances?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was there a regular pattern to the behaviour? In other words, did

5 the -- was there a sequence of events which would typically occur?

6 A. It would be at night, and like I said, it -- basically what I

7 described earlier, a vehicle would arrive carrying typically a mortar,

8 fire off a few rounds in, you know, a short period of time and then pack

9 up and leave.

10 Q. On these occasions that you made these observations, did you

11 notice whether any of the individuals were wearing any uniforms?

12 A. Usually.

13 Q. What type of uniform?

14 A. Depends on when -- when during the conflict it was, but camouflage

15 uniforms. I mean, there was a smattering of different types of uniforms

16 in use.

17 Q. Did you ever see or hear what you presumed to be mortars being

18 fired from within the hospital grounds?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you ever --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, we're close to a quarter to two. If you

22 would find a good moment to finish for today, please indicate so.

23 MR. IERACE: One more question, Mr. President.

24 Q. Did you ever see or hear what you presumed to be small-arms fire

25 from within Kosevo hospital?

Page 2300

1 A. No.

2 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I might indicate that I

3 expect I will only be approximately another 15 minutes with this witness

4 in chief. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Another 15 minutes, yes. Thank you very much.

6 We will adjourn and -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're standing on your

7 feet. Yes.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you so much for giving

9 me the floor, Mr. President. This is just to indicate what I have already

10 said, that unfortunately I have an arbitration session tomorrow and

11 Monday, so I will not be able to be at two hearings, and I would like to

12 ask the Chamber to forgive me and to excuse me. It is impossible for me

13 to do otherwise.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you

15 have other obligations as well.

16 There's one other remark I'd like to make. You objected today,

17 and since we have found some kind of a procedure where leading questions

18 to some extent are not objected against, if you make an objection, would

19 you please do it, whenever possible, as soon as the question has been

20 asked. It has two advantages; first of all that the witness will not

21 start answering, which saves time, and at the same time your objection is

22 far more effective if the witness has not yet answered on the leading

23 question.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I know. I was just trying to

25 make sure that the witness didn't say something earlier in his answers

Page 2301

1 that was then asked as a leading question. That could be a problem, and I

2 do I apologise.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. So then we'll adjourn until tomorrow

4 morning at 9.00.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Friday, the 25th day

7 of January, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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