Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2527

1 Tuesday, 29 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Before we continue, good

9 morning to everyone in the courtroom, and especially also those almost

10 invisible outside the courtroom; the technical staff and the

11 interpreters. It's not that I pay attention to the technical staff since

12 we have a technical problem this morning. The Registry has no access at

13 this very moment to some parts of the computer system, so this might cause

14 us to stop whenever we cannot do without any more. But I suggest to you

15 that we just first start.

16 I see Mr. Piletta-Zanin is back in court. Welcome.

17 Mr. Ierace, I would suggest that we do start, and Madam Registrar

18 will inform us when she gets stuck and if we can't proceed any more.

19 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in Witness L.

20 [The witness entered court] 50.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me, Mr. L? Yes. Please be seated.

22 Mr. Ierace, when you're ready, please proceed.

23 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Mr. President, I ask that at this stage, we view the

25 electronically joined photograph, which is P3279A. 50.

Page 2528

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if the technical staff could...


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

5 Q. Sir, would you please look at the photograph which appears on the

6 screen in front of you, and can you tell me if you recognise the road that

7 appears in the photograph.

8 A. Yes, I can. I recognise it.

9 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

10 Q. Please repeat your answer.

11 A. Yes, I recognise the road.

12 Q. All right. Having regard to the video which was shown yesterday

13 afternoon - for the transcript, that's P3280B - was that the direction in

14 which you were facing when you were shot?

15 A. Yes, that's the direction.

16 Q. And also having regard to that video, does that appear to be the

17 view you had when you were looking straight ahead at the time that you

18 were shot?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right.

21 MR. IERACE: I ask that the image be moved to the left slowly.

22 Pause there for a moment.

23 Q. To the right of the road, was there a slope going upwards to

24 another road, that is, to the right of the road on which you were standing

25 when you were shot?

Page 2529

1 A. I don't understand your question.

2 Q. All right. I'll withdraw that question for the moment.

3 To the left of the road where you were shot, is there a slope

4 downwards and away from the road?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. IERACE: Please continue to move the photograph to the left.

7 Please pause there.

8 Q. Now, indeed to the left, was there a small valley?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the photograph. Please pause

11 the photograph at that point.

12 Q. Does the image in front of you now show the road behind you, that

13 is, the road section that was behind you at the time you were shot?

14 A. Yes. You can see that road there.

15 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the photograph to the left.

16 Please pause at that point and move the photograph in an upwards

17 direction. Please continue to pan to the left. And please stop at that

18 point now. Thank you.

19 Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown some photographs which

20 are Exhibit P3261. Excuse me, Mr. President.

21 Q. Sir, did you make a statement to the -- to an investigator from

22 the Office of the Prosecutor at the Tribunal in September last year and

23 indeed sign that statement on the 15th of September last year, that is,

24 2001?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2530

1 Q. At the time that you made that statement, were you shown a number

2 of photographs?

3 A. Yes, I was. Correct.

4 Q. Do you have before you five sheets of paper which contain various

5 photographs?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Please look at the first sheet, and I think in the top right-hand

8 corner there are some numbers printed in red which read "02110617." Do

9 you see two photographs on that page?

10 A. Yes, I see that.

11 Q. In the top photograph, do you recognise yourself?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Was that a photograph taken in October of the year 2000?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you mark in red a circle on that photograph?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. In particular, did you mark a roof under construction?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At the time that you were shot, did that roof, that is that

20 semi-constructed roof, exist?

21 A. No, it did not exist.

22 MR. IERACE: I ask that the -- excuse me, Mr. President. Might I

23 have access to those photographs so that I can cover a reference to the

24 witness's name.

25 Mr. President, I ask that the top photograph on that page which I

Page 2531

1 have identified be placed on the ELMO. I have taken some steps to obscure

2 the identity of the witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.


5 Q. In the photograph which appears on the ELMO at the moment, which I

6 identify as photograph marked BR#1A, you seem to be standing in

7 approximately the position where you were shot?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. It appears from the photograph that, immediately above the

10 semi-constructed roof, there are a collection of buildings. Do you know

11 the name of that area, that is, the area where those buildings in the

12 distance are seen?

13 A. I don't know exactly, but it's part of Poljine, Orahov Brijeg.

14 Q. To the right of that group of buildings and indeed to the right of

15 you as you appear in that photograph, and slightly above, there appear to

16 be another collection of buildings. One can see red roofs and white

17 buildings. Do you know the name of that area where those buildings

18 appear?

19 A. No, I don't know the exact name.

20 Q. Would you now look at the photograph beneath that one on the same

21 page. Does it appear to be a telephoto photograph of the same group of

22 buildings to the right of you in the first photograph?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In relation to those buildings, do you know which side of the

25 confrontation line they were on at the time that you were shot? 50?

Page 2532

1 A. On the other side. That is to say, opposite our side.

2 Q. In relation to the buildings that appear above the

3 semi-constructed roof, that is the area you called, I think, Orahov

4 Brijeg, do you know which side of the confrontation line they were on at

5 the time you were shot?

6 A. Once again, on the opposite side.

7 Q. Please go to the next page of photographs.

8 MR. IERACE: And Mr. President, I ask that the top photograph be

9 placed on the ELMO. I identify it as being marked BR#2A.

10 Q. Do you recognise what appears in that photograph?

11 A. Yes, I recognise that.

12 Q. There appears to be a road with two cars on it in the middle of

13 the photograph. And to the left of the photograph, the road curves down

14 and around. Do you agree with that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know the name of that road?

17 A. This side road is what we call Stara Cesta, or the "Old Road."

18 Q. Just to be clear on this, I'm not asking you about the road that

19 branches off the main one; I'm asking you about the name of the -- what

20 appears to be the main road, that is, the road that has two cars on it in

21 that photograph. Do you know the name of that road?

22 A. That's the main road running from Sarajevo to Tuzla.

23 Q. And do you know its name, if it has one?

24 A. Well, I don't know exactly, but I think it was the M17.

25 Q. Branching off it is a side road which extends downwards. Do you

Page 2533

1 know the name of that road?

2 A. That is the road which is called Stara Cesta, meaning "Old Road."

3 Q. In the second photograph - and perhaps that could now be placed on

4 the ELMO - which I identify as being marked --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the marking, perhaps could you find

6 another way of indicating what photograph it is. You'll understand why

7 the marking is perhaps not the best way of...

8 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. The photograph marked 2B.

9 Q. Do you see in that photograph what appears to be the same two

10 roads?

11 A. Yes, I can see that.

12 Q. At the time that you made your statement on the 15th of September

13 last year, did you place a circle in red ink on that photograph?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. Please look at that photograph. And do you see on the lower road

16 what appears to be a semi-constructed roof with a red circle around it?

17 Please look at the photograph on the ELMO itself so you can view the

18 original, or at least a better copy.

19 Did you place that circle there?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. And indeed, does that indicate the same semi-constructed roof that

22 you marked on one of the photographs on the earlier page?

23 A. Yes, that's it precisely.

24 Q. Please turn to the next photograph, which bears the number in red

25 on the top right-hand corner 0215-1440. And again, I would ask you to

Page 2534












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Page 2535

1 turn slowly and look at the photograph itself which is placed on the ELMO

2 to your right.

3 Does this appear to be another photograph of the same two roads

4 but from a different angle?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On the hill to the top left, there appears to be a tower. What is

7 the name of that hill?

8 A. That's Hum.

9 Q. Please turn to the next photograph which bears the numbers in the

10 top right-hand corner 0215-1441. Does that appear to be a larger print of

11 one of the earlier photographs that you have just identified?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And finally, turn to the last page, which has in the top

14 right-hand corner the numbers 0215-1442. Does that appear to be a larger

15 print of the first photograph that you looked at and identified? And

16 perhaps that may not be placed on the ELMO at this stage.

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if you could direct that that not be

19 placed on the ELMO.

20 Excuse me, Mr. President.

21 Q. Now, earlier you said that the two settlements or collections of

22 buildings, you're on their side. Which side was that? Which army was

23 that?

24 A. The army that held the whole city under blockade.

25 Q. Do you know the name of that army?

Page 2536

1 A. The Serb army, the former JNA, parts of it, that kind of thing.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that concludes examination-in-chief of

3 this witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

5 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

6 Mr. L, you'll now be examined --

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- by the Defence.

9 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. L, good morning.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether you gave statements to the

13 investigators of the Tribunal.

14 A. I don't understand.

15 Q. Before coming to testify, did you talk to the investigators of the

16 Prosecution?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us when that was?

19 A. I can't remember exactly. I can't remember the date.

20 Q. If I tell you that it was the 31st of August, 2000, would you

21 agree with me that that is correct?

22 A. I really can't remember exactly when that was.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

24 the Defence would like to show the statement of the 31st of August to the

25 witness for him to identify the signature, to tell us whether it is indeed

Page 2537

1 his signature and his statement, and may we block out the signature? I'd

2 just like the witness to assert whether it is his statement or not.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest, Ms. Pilipovic, that since I do not expect

4 this to be tendered into evidence as such, but if you just show it to the

5 witness and if you then please indicate for the record what exactly you're

6 showing, and you'll then give an opportunity to the Prosecution to see

7 whether this is the document, as far as I understand, provided by the

8 Prosecution to you.

9 So if you please would indicate what you're showing him. I assume

10 it's a statement of a certain date.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence is going

12 to show Witness L the 31st of August, 2000 statement.


14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And in the lower half of the

15 statement, there appears a signature. I should -- and on the last page as

16 well. Could the witness tell us whether it is his signature and whether

17 he did indeed give a statement to the investigators on the 31st of August,

18 2000.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please, Mr. Usher, could you just show it to,

20 give it to the witness.

21 Does the Prosecution want to verify whether -- yes. It should not

22 be put on the ELMO. Just show it to the witness, please. And also his

23 signature also on the last page. The signatures, I should say.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 39228. So not the last

25 one but the one before last.

Page 2538

1 Q. 3228, Witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I see you're nodding but could you please say aloud

3 your answer. Are these your signatures, as you have been asked by the

4 Defence?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they are my signatures.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Does the Prosecution want to verify whether this

7 statement is -- Mr. Usher, would you then please show the document just

8 shown to the witness to the Prosecution.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, after the witness has

10 identified it, the Defence should like to tender this document into

11 evidence.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I do not think that the content of the document at

13 this moment is at stake, so we'll consider that during the first break,

14 whether it would be proper not to have it tendered into evidence and once

15 the Prosecution also has had an opportunity to state his position.

16 Would you then, since it has just been shown for identification to

17 the witness, would you please give the copy back to Ms. Pilipovic so that

18 she can proceed.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank

20 you.

21 Q. Witness L, yesterday during the examination-in-chief, you said

22 that in October 1993 you were a member of the Civil Defence. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Can you tell us if, as a member of the Civil Defence, what was

Page 2539

1 your role in it?

2 A. Specifically my role was to distribute humanitarian aid to the

3 population in my area, to look after the cleanliness of streets and the

4 whole neighbourhood, and that would roughly be it.

5 Q. Can you tell us, in relation to the city of Sarajevo, which area

6 was it?

7 A. It's "centar," the centre.

8 Q. This part of the city that you've just mentioned, when you showed

9 them on these photographs, is -- are those photographs showing that area?

10 A. No, they don't.

11 Q. You mean that October, on the 7th October 1993, you were -- were

12 not in that area as a member of the Civil Defence, were you?

13 A. I was a member of the Civil Defence, but I -- but that particular

14 day I was not engaged in the usual chores.

15 Q. And can you tell us: Before October 1993, were you also, that is,

16 I mean, 1993 and 1992, were you a member of the Civil Defence then or,

17 rather, when did you join the Civil Defence?

18 A. I joined the Civil Defence, I think, in June 1993. So it's June

19 1993.

20 Q. And before that? Did you play any role, or what did you do prior

21 to June 1993?

22 A. I was a member of the Territorial Defence.

23 Q. And as a member of the Territorial Defence, in which area were you

24 active; in this area or some other?

25 A. No, not in this area. In the -- in my neighbourhood, in the area

Page 2540

1 where I lived.

2 Q. As a member of the Territorial Defence, did you have some ID card

3 or a uniform?

4 A. Well, the uniform wasn't really much. Whatever one had, one

5 wore. As for some ID card, I didn't have one.

6 Q. As a member of the Territorial Defence, were you issued with a

7 weapon?

8 A. No, not officially because there were no weapons, but we managed

9 as far as weapons were concerned. 50.

10 Q. As a member of the Civil Defence, did you wear a uniform then?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

13 like to show the witness photograph 0215-1440.

14 Q. Witness, you have in front of you photograph 1440. Is that the

15 part of the town in which you were on the 7th of October, 1993?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Can you show us on this photograph where is it that you were?

18 A. You mean where I was when I was wounded?

19 Q. Yes, that's right.

20 A. Yes, I can show it.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

22 like -- except that we have a technical problem; I don't know what to do.

23 We would like the witness to mark the place where he was wounded on this

24 photograph.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we have -- the witness has told the

Page 2541

1 Court, I think on several occasions, where he was. What's the exact

2 relevance of have him indicate again the place where he was, since -- is

3 there any specific reason why? I mean, we went through the geography of

4 the road I think twice or three times. But if there's any --

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence wants the

6 place where the witness was marked because in this -- this photograph best

7 shows the predominating features. The witness has identified the hill.

8 And the next question of the Defence would be after the witness identified

9 the place from -- so my next question would be from which direction did

10 the bullet come?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the problem is, as you'll understand,

12 Ms. Pilipovic, I explained to you yesterday that this is a pre-marked

13 photograph. I just wonder whether we could use it again for marking at

14 trial.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if I may assist, this is, in fact, a

16 photograph which has not been marked previously by the witness.

17 JUDGE ORIE: You're right. I'm mistaken. The others are. So if

18 a black marker would be used, then it could be done. I apologise for my

19 hesitations.

20 Mr. Usher, could you please give a black marker to the witness.

21 And I think it could be put on the ELMO at this stage since there's no --

22 nothing in the photograph. Would you please put it on the ELMO first,

23 Mr. Usher.

24 THE WITNESS: I will mark here the road on which I was at the time

25 of wounding. Now, whether that is the exact spot where I was wounded, I

Page 2542












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Page 2543

1 wouldn't know.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Can you at the same time indicate the direction from which the

4 bullet came on this photograph, that is, the spot where you were and from

5 which direction the bullet came.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interests of clarity, I would

7 ask that my friend indicate the manner in which she wants the witness to

8 indicate the direction from which the bullet came. Does she mean by an

9 arrow or something else? Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, I have an additional question,

11 Ms. Pilipovic. A photograph is a two-dimensional picture, and this might

12 cause some problems since there's no depth. At least, if there's any

13 depth in the photograph, it's very difficult if you use arrows to indicate

14 depth as well.

15 So would you please, in guiding the witness, tell him exactly how

16 to do it, and also -- well, at least -- I wouldn't say confront him with

17 this problem, but at least make sure that no mistakes will be the result

18 of this difference between two dimensions and three dimensions.

19 Please proceed.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness, will you please make a small circle to indicate the place

22 where you were at the moment of wounding.

23 A. I will, but I repeat I can mark the road that I was walking on.

24 Whether I will pinpoint the right place, I'm not quite sure.

25 Q. Well, as far as your memory serves you in regard to this road.

Page 2544

1 A. [Marks] 50.

2 Q. And in relation to the relay on the hill, if we look at this

3 photograph, and it is in the -- it is to the north. If we look at the

4 photograph like this, perhaps northwest, north-northwest. Can you tell us

5 from which --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: My friend is giving evidence from the bar table, and

8 I suspect the evidence, in fact, is incorrect. I don't know that the hill

9 which contains the relay is to the northwest. I have provided my friend

10 with a map of this area. And I think if she consults that, she will see

11 that, in fact, the hill is to the southeast, as I recollect it.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence does not

13 have that photograph, but I will rephrase my question --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- so as not to waste time on

16 this.

17 Q. Can you tell us, in relation to this mosque, from which direction

18 did a bullet come?

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interests of --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE: I object to the question. The mosque may or -- I

22 don't want to trespass on my friend's area but if I can point out my

23 objection this way: The mosque may or may not have anything to do with

24 the direction.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 50.

Page 2545

1 Q. Witness, can you show us on this photograph, since you were coming

2 down this road -- or were you coming down this road? Or were you going up

3 this road, up the hill, as you told us that it was at the foot of this

4 hill? Will you tell us whether you were climbing down or climbing up this

5 road.

6 A. I was climbing down.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, on various photos, the witness has

8 already indicated that he was walking downwards on the small road. Please

9 proceed.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. He did, but the

11 Defence wants to check whether he was going down the road or up the road

12 on this photograph, and that was my only question.

13 Q. Could you make an arrow to show us which direction did the bullet

14 come.

15 A. Except that naturally you look upward, up, then it came from the

16 hill. That is where the bullet came from.

17 Q. Yes. But that is the photograph 1442. And in this photograph

18 1440, can you show us in this photograph? Because you said you had gone

19 to get bread for your parents, in what direction is your parents' house?

20 A. I did not say that I had gone to buy bread for my parents but that

21 I was carrying, taking bread to my parents.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Witness, Defence counsel would like to know

23 whether from the position on the road you indicated several times on

24 photographs whether you went in the direction of the house with the roof

25 under construction, which is downwards, or that you went the other way,

Page 2546

1 upwards, moving away from the house with the unfinished roof. Could you

2 please indicate which direction you went at the time that you were shot.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was moving downwards, towards the

4 house that you mentioned.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hope this assists you, Ms. Pilipovic.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

7 Q. And in that area that you were in, is there a bakery there or a

8 shop selling bread?

9 A. I wouldn't know. No, there isn't.

10 Q. And were you going in this direction? Where it -- was it that you

11 were coming to this area to buy bread for your parents?

12 A. No. I took the bread in my place of residence, that is, in my

13 neighbourhood, and took it along.

14 Q. So you took this road to go your parents' house, is it?

15 A. Yes, yes. Absolutely.

16 Q. Can you mark -- in this area where one can see houses, can you

17 tell us if you -- your parents' house is there?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, since there are protective measures, I

19 wonder whether you could get the same information in a different way so

20 that the protective measures would still be effective.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we can remove the

22 photograph and have only the witness marking his parents' house without

23 showing it on the ELMO, and we would then submit this document to the

24 registry to have it sealed.

25 Q. Can one see your parents' house on this photograph at all?

Page 2547

1 JUDGE ORIE: Even if procedure --

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That is my only question.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, even that question, since there are --

4 well, there are some houses but not too many on the picture. Perhaps if

5 it would assist you if I suggest to you that you ask the witness whether

6 the -- that if the house of his parents is on the picture he would then

7 mark it with a circle and letter "P," and if we then show the picture to

8 the Prosecution and to the Bench, and you verify for yourself whether

9 anything was marked on the picture, so that every party is aware of what

10 the witness did and at the same time the protective measures are still

11 fully effective. Would that be a suggestion?

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. And

13 I did ask the witness to tell us if his parents' house was there. If not,

14 there is no need for him to mark it at all or to mark it as you have

15 suggested.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please, then, the question is that if the house

17 of your parents is on this photograph, you mark it with a circle and put

18 the letter "P" on it. If the house of your parents is not on the

19 photograph, then of course you'll mark nothing at all. Will you please do

20 that without the photograph being put on the ELMO? You don't have to

21 indicate whether you mark anything or not, just do it if you're able to do

22 it and then the photograph will be given to the usher.

23 So, Mr. Usher, would you then please take the photograph, yes, and

24 show it to the parties so that they can see whether there's any marking

25 with a "P" on it.

Page 2548

1 Now please show it to the Prosecution.

2 Now give it to Madam Registrar.

3 Thank you. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. So, Witness, that morning -- you were not going to see your

6 parents that morning.

7 A. I said that I was going to my parents, and I was.

8 Q. I --

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown the

10 photograph 1442.

11 Q. Witness, on this photograph, you show the place where you were

12 wounded. Can you tell us what weapon was it that wounded you?

13 A. Yes. It was the so-called Death Sower.

14 Q. Can you say where was -- did that sower -- how far away from you

15 was it, whether in metres or kilometres?

16 A. Well, I wouldn't know exactly, but it had to be a few hundred

17 metres.

18 Q. And on this photograph, could you identify the place where this

19 Death Sower was, those few hundred metres away from you? Can you show

20 it?

21 A. I said a few hundred metres. Well, it was ahead of me, somewhere

22 in front of me that the Death Sower was.

23 Q. Can you identify the place on this photograph? Can you identify

24 the place of where this Death Sower was, the direction from which it came

25 and from which direction the bullet came, according to you. Can one see

Page 2549

1 it on this photograph?

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to the question. The

3 question presumes that the witness has given evidence that he knows

4 precisely where the weapon was at the time that he was shot. My reading

5 of his answers so far is that he has not done that. And therefore, the

6 question cannot be complied with.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained. The witness has

8 testified, "I wouldn't know exactly, but it had to be a few hundred

9 metres." And apart from that, the question, Ms. Pilipovic, asks both for

10 a place and a direction, which, of course, is not similar. One has got to

11 do with the other, but you have to ask him either whether he knows the

12 place or he could give a more exact place or a more exact direction or a

13 direction from which the bullet has come.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 50.

15 Q. Witness, do you know the location where the Sower of Death was

16 positioned?

17 A. I don't know the location, but I know the direction.

18 Q. Would it be possible for you to mark on this photograph what

19 direction you're talking about, either with a circle or an arrow?

20 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: There is already before the Trial Chamber abundant

23 evidence as to the direction that the witness heard the shot come from,

24 both in video form and in photograph form, being the very photograph

25 before the Trial Chamber at the moment. If the witness is to be requested

Page 2550












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Page 2551

1 to mark this photograph to clarify that, then the witness should be given

2 the opportunity to indicate a scope of direction rather than one narrow

3 line or arrow. It should be made clear to him if he doesn't know

4 precisely what line that sound came from, then he should be given the

5 necessary freedom to mark the ambit possibility. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness has testified until now

7 approximately the direction the shot came from, although I do not

8 recollect him saying that he identified this direction from the sound, as

9 your objection seems to suggest. I would allow, nevertheless,

10 Ms. Pilipovic to ask whether he could tell in more detail what direction

11 the bullet came from. So please proceed. The objection is denied.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Witness, on this photograph, could you please mark for us the

14 direction, to the best of your recollection, from which the bullet came?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put that on the ELMO.

17 A. [Marks] 50.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Defence please be given

19 the photograph since we cannot see the direction on the screen, the

20 direction which has been marked by the witness.

21 JUDGE ORIE: One of the problems is that the witness marked

22 partially on the tape covering the head. But I think the two arrows

23 remaining might be clear enough to...

24 Please proceed.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2552

1 Q. Witness, in response from my learned colleague, you told us about

2 these houses in relation to the confrontation line. I should like to know

3 how far the confrontation line was from where you were standing, from this

4 particular location.

5 A. I'm not sure.

6 Q. In relation to the spot where you were standing, do you know where

7 the confrontation lines were of our side, as you refer to it, and Serb

8 lines? Could this be seen on 1442? Again, in relation to the spot where

9 you were standing.

10 A. I really don't know where exactly the lines were positioned and

11 whether they could be seen.

12 Q. So as far as the location where you were is concerned, you don't

13 know where the confrontation lines were?

14 A. No, I know that -- I know that they were ahead of me. That I know

15 for sure.

16 Q. Do you know where the confrontation line on your side, as you call

17 it, was? That is, your side of the confrontation line and how far it was

18 from the location where you were.

19 A. I don't know exactly where it was, but I am, of course, sure that

20 the location where I was was on our side.

21 Q. So the confrontation line, that is, your side of the confrontation

22 line, was in front of you, ahead of you? You know that for sure?

23 A. Yes, yes, they were ahead of me. The part that is closer to where

24 I was.

25 Q. In the area that was closer to you, were there any soldiers there?

Page 2553

1 A. Well, yes. There were soldiers; however, at that time, I didn't

2 see anyone when I was wounded.

3 Q. Do you have any knowledge that in the area which could be seen

4 from the location where you were, there was fighting going on?

5 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. I ask my friend indicate at

6 what stage? Does she mean at the time that he was shot, earlier or later

7 that day, or what?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please specify, Ms. Pilipovic.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'm referring

10 to 1993.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand it. Your question was about at least

12 approximately the time the witness was shot. I think that's also the

13 relevance of your question. Could you please be more specific as to that

14 day or these days when this event occurred?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. At the time you were wounded, Witness, that is a week before that,

17 was there any conflict, any fighting in the area which you have described,

18 in the area which you have shown as being the area from which the bullet

19 came at the time you were wounded? Was there any fighting going on at

20 that period of time?

21 A. I don't know for sure. However, on the day when I was wounded, I

22 know that there was no fighting. But shooting was relatively frequent and

23 almost exclusively at civilians in the area where I was wounded.

24 Q. How often would you visit this area?

25 A. It depended. When I had time, I -- I went there.

Page 2554

1 Q. And how often did you pass this road?

2 A. Only when I went to see my parents.

3 Q. You said the incident took place early in the morning. Did you go

4 to see your parents the day before? I mean, did you spend the night of

5 the 6th -- between the 6th and the 7th at your parents' house?

6 A. No, I did not. I was not there the day before nor did I spend the

7 night in my parents' house, no.

8 Q. That day and that particular night, were you at all in the area?

9 A. As I said, I was there on the 7th of October, 1993, in early

10 morning hours when I was wounded and that was that.

11 Q. So, Witness, when you say that there was no fighting on the 7th,

12 in the morning of the 7th, you're referring to that particular morning,

13 the night before, and the day before?

14 A. The day before I went there, my father had come to see me. So I

15 am quite positive that there was no fighting. But of course there was

16 shooting, as he told me, going on from time to time, and he advised me

17 to -- to come to see them before dawn, but that day I was a bit late and

18 it was already light.

19 Q. So when you say that there was no shooting on that particular day,

20 you actually don't have any personal knowledge about that?

21 A. No. What I'm saying is that there was no fighting. But the

22 shooting, on the other hand, was a constant occurrence.

23 Q. Thank you. On photograph number 1440, in response from my learned

24 colleague, you indicated the Hum hill. Looking at the photograph number

25 1442, would Hum be behind you, behind your back, or on your side? By

Page 2555

1 using this photograph 1442, would it be possible for you to tell us where

2 the hill, the Hum hill, is located?

3 A. Well, in any case, it would be behind my back or perhaps on my

4 side. I don't know exactly, but it would be behind me.

5 Q. Do you have any knowledge, either personal knowledge or from your

6 father, that there was a confrontation line on this part of the hill? Was

7 there a confrontation line on this hill?

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. I ask my friend indicate

9 clearly what hill she has in mind.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please be more specific, Ms. Pilipovic.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I refer to the Hum

12 hill. I should like the witness to be shown 1440. I mean, the witness

13 has identified the hill where the TV relay is in response to a question of

14 my colleague. Let me try to be even more specific.

15 Q. The hill where the TV relay is situated, is that the Hum hill?

16 A. I'm sorry, I don't have the photograph, but yes, yes, that is the

17 hill in question, Hum.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could the photograph please be shown to the witness.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, this is Hum.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. When you described the location where you were on 1442 and when I

22 asked you about a hill that was behind you, were you talking about the Hum

23 hill? Was that the hill that you said was behind your back in relation to

24 this photograph?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2556

1 Q. So my question was: Did you have any personal knowledge or did

2 you happen to learn that from your father where in relation to this hill

3 the confrontation line was? 50?

4 A. I don't know that for sure. He may have told me that, but I

5 really don't know.

6 Q. Do you know whether there were any troops below this hill?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Witness, you don't want to tell us the truth, therefore.

9 A. Well, I mean, the whole area was full of troops. Whether there

10 were any soldiers below the Hum hill, I don't know.

11 Q. When you say that the area was full of troops, would you agree

12 with me, then, that there was fighting going on in this area?

13 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President, and ask the witness [sic] to

14 clarify at what stage. I have a second basis for objection; that is

15 relevance. I note the witness has now gone some nine minutes beyond the

16 examination-in-chief time. Whilst I don't have a problem with that per

17 se, there is this I think more fundamental issue of relevance.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's not mix up the time issue, which was in my

19 mind as well, and the relevance issue. Ms. Pilipovic, could you explain

20 the relevance of this question where I think a distinction might be made

21 between the presence of troops and actual fighting.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the presence of the

23 troops is relevant for the purposes of testing the credibility of the

24 witness. And since I have gone some nine minutes beyond the

25 examination-in-chief, and in view of the fact that this witness is very

Page 2557

1 important for the Defence, I should like to ask the Court to allow me two

2 more questions.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Of course you get the opportunity to put two more

4 questions. But do I understand that you're going to rephrase them?

5 Because you said the presence of the troops is of importance for the

6 credibility, but your question was about actual fighting after the witness

7 had already testified about the presence of troops. That was your next

8 question, I think, especially which the objection was against.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness, you told us about the presence of troops in this area and

11 in this particular location as well. Do you have any knowledge whether

12 those troops participated in the fighting there?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please specify exactly as far as the

14 moment, day, hour, week, month, whatever you want to know.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 50.

16 Q. Witness, do you have any personal knowledge or any information

17 from your father that in this particular area, in 1993, due to the

18 presence of soldiers, that there was any fighting going on?

19 A. First of all, when you say "in 1993," you are talking about a very

20 long period of time. There was fighting, I am sure. However, at the

21 moment when I was wounded, no.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Could you tell us whether you have reported this incident to

24 anyone else except to the medical institution where you went? And when I

25 say "anyone else," I am referring to some competent authorities.

Page 2558












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2559

1 A. No, no. Everything happened very fast. It was only later that my

2 superiors from the Civil Defence organisation learned about what had

3 happened.

4 Q. Witness, do you know if there was any report made following this

5 incident, and do you know whether any competent authority actually went to

6 the scene of the incident?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. In the area where you visited when you went to see your parents,

9 was there a police station?

10 A. There may have been, but I'm not sure. I don't know for sure.

11 Q. Do you know if a Lejla checkpoint was located in the vicinity of

12 the road that you took?

13 A. I don't know that.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have a document

15 that we were given from the OTP. It's an official note made by the Public

16 Security Station officials who visited the scene of the incident and made

17 a note thereof. The note contains a description of the location where

18 Witness L was at the moment he was wounded.

19 We have a sufficient number of copies of this official note, both

20 in English and B/C/S, and I should like the witness to be shown this

21 document, please.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

23 Mr. Usher, could you please.

24 While the documents are distributed, Ms. Pilipovic, you indicated

25 that you had two more questions five, six minutes ago. May I assume that

Page 2560

1 this is the final part of the --

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I will wind up, Your

3 Honour. Just a second.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll not have the break at exactly 10.30 but just

5 after you finish this part of the cross-examination.

6 In order to avoid whatever misunderstanding, I see that the note

7 is pre-numbered D29, which I think, Madam Registrar, should be changed

8 since we're already at, I think, D31. Is that correct?

9 THE REGISTRAR: The next number is D31.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness L, do you have a document titled "Official Note" in front

13 of you?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Is the document dated 8th of October, 1993?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Was it made by the Vogosca Public Security Station? Can you see

18 that in the upper left corner?

19 A. Yes, it was.

20 Q. In the first paragraph of this official note, does it say that it

21 was "compiled in the premises of" and so on and so forth? Is that the

22 beginning of the first paragraph of the official note?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Does the second paragraph begin with the words: "On the 7th of

25 October, 1993, at 6.30, in the vicinity of the Lejla checkpoint, a

Page 2561

1 citizen" so-and-so "was wounded. Occupation, member of the Civil

2 Defence"?

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

4 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to notice that the translation only

5 covers part of the statement, then that's what I noticed as well.

6 MR. IERACE: Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the translation ends somewhere in the

8 middle of the document you gave to us. It's -- I think the last line ends

9 with "Kosevsko 1CZ," and that happens to be approximately in the middle of

10 the original in B/C/S. So if you want to question the witness on the

11 document...

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have the

13 continuation of the translation, which also contains the medical report.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you then please distribute the ...

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies, but we

16 have only four copies of this particular page.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then, since the translation is not of major

18 importance for the witness, would you give, for the time being, one copy

19 to the Prosecution and two ...

20 Madam Registrar.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We have two more copies, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Since we have the whole translation now, please

25 proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

Page 2562

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Witness L, was there a checkpoint belonging to the Vogosca Public

3 Security Station in the area where you were wounded?

4 A. I really don't know that. 50.

5 Q. Do you know where the Public Security Station is located in the

6 vicinity of the area where you were wounded?

7 A. No, no.

8 Q. Could you tell us whether the information contained in this

9 official note is accurate or not?

10 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. It's fair to the witness to

11 put the particular propositions contained in that note one at a time to

12 the witness rather than to broadly say to the witness words to the effect,

13 "Could you tell us whether the information is accurate?" in other words,

14 all of the information.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the objection is sustained. Ms. Pilipovic, may

16 I just explain to you that the witness just testified that he didn't know

17 about a checkpoint, and for example, the vicinity of the checkpoint is

18 part of this document. So if there's any specific point you'd like to

19 check, please proceed.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was

21 whether the checkpoint Lejla was situated there, and the witness said no.

22 MR. IERACE: I object to that, Mr. President. That wasn't the

23 witness's answer.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 50.

25 Q. Witness L, do you know whether there was a Lejla checkpoint in the

Page 2563

1 vicinity of the area where you were wounded?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I want you to be more precise on these

3 kind of issues. Let me just check exactly what your question was and what

4 the answer was.

5 Your question has been: "Witness L, was there a checkpoint

6 belonging to the Vogosca Public Security Station in the area where you

7 were wounded?" The answer was, "I really don't know that." So that's

8 really something different from what you just told me because that reads:

9 "Your Honour, my question was whether the checkpoint Lejla was situated

10 there, and the witness said no." The answer [sic] was whether there was

11 any checkpoint or not, and he said, "I do not know."

12 So there was no question of a specific checkpoint mentioned and

13 that he said it was not there, which suggests that he had knowledge about

14 where it might have been or at least that it was not in that vicinity. So

15 would you please be more precise on these issues.

16 Please proceed.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 50.

18 Q. Witness L, do you know whether in the month of October 1993, in

19 the vicinity of the spot where you were wounded was a checkpoint called

20 Lejla?

21 A. I really don't know. I don't know that.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. This

23 concludes my cross-examination of the witness. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. We'll adjourn until 5 minutes

25 past 11.00. And then, if there's any need, there will be a possibility

Page 2564

1 for re-examination and for, if needed also, questions from the Bench.

2 Until 5 minutes past 11.00, we adjourn.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Defence has indicated that it

7 intends to tender the statement of the witness which is dated the 31st of

8 August, 2000. As you, Mr. President and Your Honours, would be aware, I

9 have consistently opposed the tender of statements where the -- where it

10 contains material which has not been put to the witness, but on this

11 particular occasion, I do not oppose the tender of the statement. I would

12 like that issue clarified before I commence my re-examination, because the

13 content of that depends to some extent upon your decision.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for

17 giving me the floor. There is a point that I should like to examine. I

18 am rather afraid as to the procedure and its evolvement. There is a point

19 which is not of interest to the witness but is of interest to myself, and

20 I cannot tolerate certain things in this court, as in any other instance

21 or circumstances, and I would prefer it if the witness were to be escorted

22 out of the courtroom so that I could say what I have to say.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is it an issue

24 which should be raised before the re-examination of the witness starts? I

25 mean, is it of any direct relevance for the re-examination? If not, I'd

Page 2565

1 rather wait until the examination of the witness is finished. But if you

2 say no, it's relevant at this moment, I'll follow your suggestion.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

4 Defence can show itself to be very patient, and we can wait, of course, to

5 see the end of the re-examination of this witness and then to say what we

6 have to say.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'll then give you the opportunity to raise

8 the issue you want to raise.

9 So first we have to decide on the tendering into evidence of the

10 statement of the witness, the previous statement given to the

11 investigators.

12 Ms. Pilipovic, we changed the procedure in some -- to some extent

13 by -- since you have shown the paper to the witness, he identified his

14 signature on it and -- do you still would like to tender the statement

15 into evidence, although it has not been, as far as the content is

16 concerned, been touched upon during the examination -- during

17 cross-examination?

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence

19 would like to tender the statement into evidence as a Defence exhibit

20 because, from the contents of the statement identified by the witness, and

21 he said that it is indeed his statement and his signature, this brings the

22 credibility of the witness into question.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: As you may have noticed, this Chamber applies as a

25 rule that previous statements are not, at least not as a whole, admitted

Page 2566












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Page 2567

1 into evidence. Ms. Pilipovic, since only the signature issue has been

2 part of your cross-examination and since you have not confronted the

3 witness with any specific line, as you could have done, of his previous

4 statement, I'd rather this Chamber finally will decide at the end, as we

5 always do, but is very much not inclined to admit this document into

6 evidence. And since I have heard from the Prosecution the reason why they

7 do not oppose, I suggest that in a similar way as the Defence often has

8 done, by just reading a line to a witness if you want to confront him in

9 one way or another with his previous statement or have it confirmed might

10 be a suitable technique. So then we would not have to change the general

11 line set out by this Chamber not to admit previous statements into

12 evidence unless there is a specific reason for that.

13 So unless -- Mr. Ierace, of course you're perfectly entitled to

14 seek the admission of the statement into evidence by yourself if there's

15 any need for that and if you give proper reasons for that, but -- so you

16 have to expect that the request, the application, the tendering into

17 evidence of this statement by the -- by the Defence will be denied. 50.

18 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. That being the case, I

19 think a safer course is for me to seek leave to ask one further question

20 which really is in the nature of examination-in-chief. And of course, I

21 don't oppose any application by my friend to ask further questions in

22 relation to any answer that might be given in response.

23 And secondly, in due course, I will seek to tender the medical

24 report. I wish to ask one or two questions of the witness by way of

25 identification of that report; likewise, I would have no objection should

Page 2568

1 my friends make an application to ask further questions in relation to

2 that. I identify those two issues, Mr. President. Beyond that, I have a

3 few questions that do fall under the heading of re-examination.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, am I correct that, until now, the medical

5 report only showed up as part of a translation, and I haven't seen any --

6 not seen any original? What's the reason why this report would only now

7 be tendered into evidence, which is rather late?

8 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. It's something that I should

9 have taken the witness to in chief, and that's why I identified it as

10 something that is relevant to evidence-in-chief. And I can indicate that

11 the question, quite separate from that that I seek to ask, goes to the

12 clothing that the witness was wearing at the time he was shot.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. And of course, Ms. Pilipovic,

14 you will get a fair opportunity to put any additional questions if the

15 re-examination would demand so.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

19 Q. Sir, what were you wearing at the time you were shot?

20 A. I was wearing a multicoloured jumper. I had a pair of jeans and

21 track shoes.

22 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown Exhibit P1712. I might

23 indicate, Mr. President, that during the course of cross-examination, I

24 had a clean copy of that exhibit prepared. I think the Registry has that

25 clean copy.

Page 2569

1 Q. Sir, do you recognise the document which is in front of you?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. What is it?

4 A. This is what is called a "Traumatological Findings" from the

5 hospital.

6 Q. When did you first see that document?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I was reading at that moment.

8 Yes.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

10 Mr. President. I am quite sure of what I can see, but could Mr. Ierace

11 please provide me with a copy of the French and English translations of

12 that document. Thank you in advance.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I do see that there's an English translation attached

14 to it which bears the number P1712.1.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it. Thank you,

16 Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The reason why I couldn't see you standing up is that

18 I was going through the document. Perhaps if you would do that also next

19 time.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


22 Q. Sir, I'll repeat my question: When did you first see that

23 document?

24 A. You said for the first time?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 2570

1 A. I saw the document first when I was given medical assistance, and

2 they provided me with these findings.

3 Q. Whereabouts did you receive that medical assistance?

4 A. In the Kosevo Hospital. And afterwards, after I had been given

5 medical assistance, I was given this piece of paper, these findings. So

6 my answer is: In hospital.

7 Q. You were asked questions by the Defence as to the direction of the

8 bullet that hit you. You marked on a photograph some arrows in relation

9 to those questions. How were you able to determine the direction from

10 which the bullet came that hit you?

11 A. I heard it. Before the bullet actually struck me, I heard the

12 firing beforehand. There was a short burst of gunfire, two or three

13 bullets were fired, and the bullets whizzed past, either past me or up

14 above my head. And then the second burst of gunfire hit me, one of the

15 bullets from that burst hit me.

16 Q. In placing the arrows, the two black arrows on the photograph, did

17 you mean to indicate precisely the direction of the bullet or generally

18 the direction of the bullet, or what?

19 A. I wanted to indicate the direction, the direction from which the

20 bullet came.

21 Q. I appreciate that. I am interested in clarifying the degree of

22 precision that you meant to convey by those two arrows. If I could ask

23 you this way: You have been asked questions about two groups of buildings

24 which were in front of you in the distance. I think you identified one of

25 those groups of buildings as being in the area of Poljine, and you were

Page 2571

1 also asked questions about the group of buildings that appeared above the

2 semi-constructed building -- semi-constructed roof, rather, on

3 photograph 1A of Exhibit P3261.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, but could

6 Mr. Ierace indicate precisely where we see that in the transcript, and the

7 Chamber asks for that from time to time.

8 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber prefers literal quotation and usually

9 allows a quotation where there is no doubt as to the reliability. But

10 since objection has been raised, could you please find the --

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we are labouring under a difficulty

12 with our LiveNote, but I think I can approach it in a different way.

13 I ask the witness be shown photograph which is part of P3261 and

14 which contains the numbers, in the top right-hand corner, 1442.

15 Perhaps I could see that photograph first, if that's convenient.

16 I would ask that the photograph be placed on the ELMO.

17 JUDGE ORIE: To assist you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since the

18 Prosecution has some problems, it is at 9.14 and 9.15 where you will find

19 the exact source.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

21 found it in the interval.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's -- of course, there must be no doubt. If

23 there is any reason to believe that the quotation is not correct, it

24 certainly should be more precise, a literal quotation. That's what we

25 always ask for. But the mere fact that there has been a frequent question

Page 2572

1 to quote literally because there is some doubt as to the correctness of

2 the quotation, whether the doubt is justified or not, is a second issue,

3 but times it does not come into our minds immediately what has been said

4 before.

5 On the other hand, I'd like to prevent very often this Chamber and

6 the other parties, the parties, both parties, often accept a quotation if

7 it is in conformity with their recollection. So whenever you ask for

8 literal quotation, I would say the mere fact that it has been asked at

9 other occasions is not a very satisfying ground for asking it. I think

10 there should always be some concern about the correctness of the

11 quotation. So if you could keep that in mind, because we are not on the

12 playground, we are in a serious court of law.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


15 Q. Sir, I think a few moments ago you said that you determined the

16 direction from the sound of the shot. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I would like to clarify with you the extent that you were able to

19 determine the direction, having regard to the sound, in relation to the

20 two arrows that you have placed on the photograph which is now on the

21 ELMO. Could you assist us with what you meant to convey with those

22 arrows? In other words, do you say that you could determine that the

23 bullet came from either of those two directions indicated by the arrows or

24 somewhere in the space between the arrows or somewhere in that general

25 direction, that is, encompassing an area either side of the two arrows?

Page 2573

1 Can you assist us in that regard?

2 A. Inside the space between the two arrows, that would be more or

3 less it. So the space between the two arrows. That's what I had in

4 mind.

5 Q. Do you recollect whether, at the time, you noticed if there were

6 any dwellings or other human construction in the area between the two

7 arrows on the photograph, that is, at the time you were shot?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that concludes re-examination.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Ierace.

13 Ms. Pilipovic, we have only additional questions, of course,

14 limited to the issue just covered by -- yes, please.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 Re-cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you said that after you were wounded,

18 you were taken to hospital, to Kosevo hospital; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct, but before that, I was given first aid in

20 the local infirmary, if I can call it that.

21 Q. Where is that local infirmary? Where is it located in respect to

22 the spot you were wounded at?

23 A. Going towards town, towards the centre of town, about 500 metres

24 away.

25 Q. Do you have in your possession the original of the document that

Page 2574












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2575

1 my learned colleague showed you?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence objects

4 to this medical document because it has not been signed by the authorised

5 physician, and it is illegible as well. So we question the credibility

6 and challenge the credibility of this document.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll give a decision on that. So it's about the

8 lack of the signature and the illegibility which is the basis for the

9 objection.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

12 Any questions from my colleagues?

13 A question or more questions will now be put to you by

14 Judge El Mahdi.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I should like you to tell me,

18 please, the direction of the bullet that hit you in the arm. You said

19 that it was next to the shoulder, that you were hit near the shoulder,

20 wounded near the shoulder. But what direction, from top to bottom or vice

21 versa?

22 Let me explain my question. In the report, it says, or rather, it

23 describes that there were two holes without specifying the direction that

24 the bullet took. So could you enlighten us on that point, please? Could

25 you explain to us how you were actually hit. 50?

Page 2576

1 A. The entrance wound, the bullet pierced the arm a little higher

2 up. The entrance wound was higher than the exit wound, so it would be

3 logical to suppose that it had been fired from an altitude because the

4 bullet went from a higher point and exited at a lower point.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but was it your left arm?

6 If I understood you correctly, your left arm?

7 A. Yes, my left upper arm.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But the area you indicated that

9 the shot had come from, I thought it was to your right. Was it slightly

10 to your right from the point you were standing at? Judging from the

11 photograph, I would say it was to your right.

12 A. It was frontal, straight ahead, a frontal hit.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but the bullet hit you

14 inside -- on one side, if I understood you correctly?

15 A. No. The bullet entered here and exited on the back side of my

16 arm.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And one last

18 question: You said that you sought shelter, cover, in a canal, in a sort

19 of ravine. Where was that located with respect to the road you were on

20 when you were hit? You said you took cover somewhere. Where was that?

21 A. Yes, it was a canal or a ditch right by the road, drain. And it

22 was about -- it was less than a metre deep, this canal.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But we can't see the canal on the

24 photograph. Is that right?

25 A. Probably not because of the greenery and growth and grass, but it

Page 2577

1 is there.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Was it to the right of the road

3 or to the left of the road?

4 A. It was to my right. So at the moment I was hit, this canal was to

5 my right.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And what about the car that came

7 a little later to save you and take you to hospital? Where did the car

8 come from? What direction was the car coming from?

9 A. The car was coming along the road that I, myself, was moving

10 along. So it was moving towards my parents' place, the same direction as

11 myself.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Was the car also targeted? Did

13 they shoot at the car, too?

14 A. No, not at that particular moment.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I have also one question for you. You told the Court

17 that you saw the medical document for the first time in the hospital. Was

18 this document given to you by the hospital?

19 A. Yes, that's right. They gave it to me in the hospital.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Did you go back to the hospital at a later stage?

21 A. Yes, I did, for the checkup.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Did you then take the document with you to the

23 hospital?

24 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Was there then an additional entry on the document?

Page 2578

1 A. Why, yes, I believe so. I think it is recorded in the finding

2 that the examination was performed. Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Was then the document returned to you again?

4 A. Yes. Yes, it was.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And the document you had then in your possession, did

6 you give that very document to the investigators, or was there any

7 photocopy made?

8 A. I can't really remember, but I have the original document so that

9 I suppose I gave the original to them and then they copied it. I'm not

10 quite sure. But I was returned the original, and I'm in the possession of

11 the original.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Did you bring the original with you today, or is it

13 still in Sarajevo?

14 A. No, I did not bring it here. It is in Sarajevo. I just brought a

15 copy.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

17 We'll have to decide on the documents tendered into evidence, but

18 I'd like first to confer shortly with my colleagues.

19 [Trial Chamber confers] 50.

20 JUDGE ORIE: So let's now proceed to the admission into evidence

21 of the several documents. Madam Registrar, would you please assist me.

22 But as far as my recollection goes, we start with P3280B, if I'm correct.

23 That's a video, similar video as shown in other witnesses at other

24 occasions. Since there's no objections, it's admitted into evidence.

25 Then we have the -- yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

Page 2579

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence objected

2 to the video yesterday, and we said that this tape was not complete. And

3 for reasons when we objected to the video material shown to Witness L, and

4 we objected -- I said -- excuse me, I said Witness L but I meant

5 Witness G. So this videotape is not complete. Only the scene on the

6 incident was recorded but not the place about which Witness L claims that

7 a bullet was fired from.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You are saying that a similar objection you made

9 yesterday in respect of Witness G, you'd like to make on Witness L. Yes.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That is right, Your Honour. That

11 is right. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday, a decision has been given as far as

13 Witness G is concerned, and it has been explained to you that the

14 completeness as such, whether there could have been more information on a

15 video, is not a matter of admissibility. And of course, the Defence is

16 entirely free to tender into evidence whatever videos on other locations

17 related to the incident. But the decision, therefore, is the same as it

18 was yesterday in respect of the video used for Witness G.

19 Yes?

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have the 360-degree photograph. That's

22 P3279A, as far as my recollection goes. Since there's no objection, it's

23 admitted into evidence.

24 And we have P3261, which is five sheets of photographs appearing

25 seven photographs on these five sheets, the first two pages bearing two

Page 2580

1 photographs, with the special annotation that the exhibit as tendered,

2 after marking by the -- by the witness on the request of the Defence,

3 includes a tiny little yellow piece of paper with part of the markings on

4 it, on the photograph, with number 12151442. So that yellow piece of

5 paper and the markings on it is part of the evidence.

6 Then we have P1712, a medical report, and attached to it -- and

7 translation to English 1712.1, English translation of the same medical

8 report. Objections have been made to the admission into evidence on two

9 grounds, the first ground being that they are not signed.

10 First of all, the Chamber sees that wherever there is a stamp on

11 the document, it -- usually there is some kind of a handwritten text which

12 we assume is the -- a signature of the one who is responsible for the text

13 above it and who had access to the stamp. So it seems that there is --

14 the first objection is without grounds, at least on the copy as we have it

15 here.

16 The second issue raised was the illegibility. The mere fact that

17 part of a document is in handwriting as such that you can't read it is not

18 a matter of admissibility since the Defence, if there's any need to rely

19 upon the illegible part of the document, of course could call whatever

20 witness and see whether any explanation could be given for that. At this

21 moment, of course, the probative value is restricted to those parts

22 visible, and the Court is aware that parts of the text cannot be read at

23 this moment, which asks for great caution in assessing the probative value

24 of the document.

25 So therefore, Exhibit P1712 is admitted into evidence, and 1712.1

Page 2581

1 as well. But it should be under seal because the name of the witness

2 appears on it.

3 Similarly, since the name of the witness also appears on the set

4 of seven photos on five sheets, that should be under seal as well.

5 And then Madam Registrar reminds me that -- yes. There's still

6 the -- yes. We -- I did make a mistake -- no. I've forgotten one

7 document. That's Defence document which is pre-numbered D31, which is the

8 report on an incident, and D31.1 is the English translation of that

9 document.

10 But, Madam Registrar, I think we have a small problem here. One

11 moment, please.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: We had a small -- we had a small problem since

14 D31.2 -- D31.1 was not complete.

15 Did you meanwhile find it, Madam Registrar? You have a complete

16 translation now.

17 So these two documents will be admitted as Defence Exhibits D31

18 and D31.1.

19 I think we went through all the paperwork then.

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It is

22 simply for the transcript, for the sake of precision. The Defence

23 believes that on page 47, line 19, 0010 -- 14151241 [as interpreted] is

24 the English transcript. This is merely the formal matter, the matter of

25 that transcript, but I think it needs to be said that it is the transcript

Page 2582












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2583

1 in the English language, just for the sake of precision.

2 Have you found all these references?

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... line. Yes.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The numbers which I see on the

5 exhibits is not 12 but 012, unless you have a different exhibit before

6 you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- could you please explain,

8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? I've got in front of me now page 47, line 19, which

9 reads in the English transcript "... on the photograph, with number

10 12151442."

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think it is 01, zero one.

12 Or am I wrong? The reference that I have is there is a zero.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you're correct.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And one needs to be as precise

15 as possible so that we are sure that we have the same document before us.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your assistance. It is actually 0215

17 and then 1442. Thank you for your assistance. So we have done all of

18 that.

19 Then, Mr. L, this is the end of your examination by the parties

20 and by this Bench. You understand that we are dependent on information

21 given to us by those who come and testify in this court, and documents,

22 for the decisions we'll have to take. We thank you very much for having

23 come this long way, and I hope that you'll come home safely.

24 Mr. Usher, would you then -- unless there's any reason at this

25 moment, Ms. Pilipovic, not to have the witness led out of the courtroom.

Page 2584

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The question --

2 my question has to do with the admission of documents. Perhaps I

3 misunderstood you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... it's about the

5 admission of the documents tendered in relation to this witness?

6 [The witness withdrew] 50.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That is right, in relation

8 to the photographs. Perhaps I didn't understand. This is the photograph

9 which was also marked by this witness. 1440 on which he also drew --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the specific remark I made was that the marking

11 on the photograph 0215-1442 was a marking which did not just touch the

12 photo itself but also the yellow small sticker on it. So that should

13 remain part of the exhibit as well. That's the reason why I made specific

14 mention of that issue. But of course the photos are admitted into

15 evidence as marked by the witness. Does that clarify?

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I promised to give you an

19 opportunity to raise the issue you wanted to raise before. Please

20 proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

22 giving me this opportunity. I shall be brief. The Defence is perhaps

23 more than others sure that this is not a game. That is, the names which

24 the witness mentioned was slightly different, and I think it would be

25 useful to be very precise. I apologise if the precision was not useful.

Page 2585

1 However, what I wanted to raise was the following: On the 25th,

2 in a closed session [as interpreted], it was said by the Prosecutor --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you're talking about what

4 happened in closed session, I may remind you that we have -- if there's

5 any reason to refer to anything --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I said before, before this

7 session was closed. I am saying just before what happened in closed

8 session.

9 JUDGE ORIE: There's a problem with the transcript. Because it

10 says "the 25th, in a closed session." That's the reason I wanted to

11 remind you. But that's a clear mistake. So please proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will look at the transcript

13 in English once again. Let me see what I said on the 25th. It was

14 indicated that I had communicated to the Prosecution my satisfaction - I

15 repeat, my satisfaction - both in French and English, with regard to

16 certain documents. And the remark which you just said, I could not

17 confirm that because I wasn't there. But the question is of the hearing.

18 They heard the word "dissatisfaction" but it was dissatisfaction because

19 in no case did I mention my satisfaction [as interpreted]. And I should

20 like to benefit this occasion to my dissatisfaction with the fact that

21 things were put in my mouth that I did not say. I want the things to be

22 clear.

23 Therefore, I express my dissatisfaction with this. And when

24 something is said, then I want to be here. And I hope it is now clear. I

25 do not want things put in my mouth if I am not there and which I did not

Page 2586

1 say. I hope this is now clear. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want the Chamber to verify the issue and to

3 come back to it, or the mere fact that I have explained what I have said

4 now is good enough for me and it's clarified, so the issue is then

5 closed? Of course, there always is a problem if you are absent, something

6 might be said. And I'm only too glad to see that you went through the

7 transcript, and at least you're in a position to follow exactly what has

8 been said in your absence.

9 Can I assume that this correction is what you intended, or do you

10 want any further --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not think

12 that this Tribunal should waste time with such things because there can be

13 some problems of personal relations, and this has not to do with it. I

14 think things are quite clear for everybody, but I hope that in the future,

15 nobody will benefit from anybody's absence to put in his or her mouth

16 words which that person has not said. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The reason why I asked it is that, without further

18 investigation, of course, this Chamber is not in a position to assess

19 whether the transcript is not correct. I can imagine "satisfaction" or

20 "dissatisfaction" can be easily confused. This Chamber is not aware of

21 whether this was a kind of technical problem and we might have understood

22 it in a different way. But I do understand that you say for this moment,

23 it's sufficient that the words, as they appear in the transcript as being

24 the words what I supposedly had spoken are not correct, since I have

25 spoken different words.

Page 2587

1 So if that's what you intended to tell us, then it's quite clear

2 to us. Then we could continue with your next witness, Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I call Ifeta Sahic. And to assist the

4 Trial Chamber, I indicate that she will give evidence in relation to

5 scheduled sniping incident number 9.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

7 Mr. Usher, could you bring the witness in the courtroom.

8 [The witness entered court] 50.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

11 JUDGE ORIE: As a witness, the rules require you to make a solemn

12 declaration, and the text of the solemn declaration will be given to you

13 now by the usher. Would you please make that solemn declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.

17 Miss Sahic - at least I understand that you are Miss Sahic - as a

18 witness, you'll first be examined by the Prosecution. I do not know

19 whether it will be Mr. Ierace who will put questions to you.

20 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

24 Q. Would you please tell us your name.

25 A. My name is Ifeta Sahic.

Page 2588

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please come a bit closer to the

2 microphones, or have them adjusted.

3 Yes, please.


5 Q. Where were you living in August of 1993?

6 A. At Kobilja Glava.

7 Q. Is that in or near Sarajevo?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who were you living with?

10 A. With my sister.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can hardly hear the witness.

12 Could the microphones be adjusted, please, or the witness asked to speak

13 up.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please speak a bit louder or a bit

15 more nearer to the microphones, Miss Sahic. The interpreters have some

16 difficulty in hearing you.

17 Yes, please, proceed.

18 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. In August 1993, how old were you?

20 A. I was 14.

21 Q. On the 9th of -- withdraw that. On the 5th of August, 1993, at

22 some stage during that day, did you leave your sister's place in the

23 company of some other people?

24 A. Yes, with these two friends of mine with whom I went to get some

25 water.

Page 2589

1 Q. What are the names of those two friends?

2 A. Sabina Zekovic and Vildana Kapur.

3 Q. You have told us that you left with them to get some water. Was

4 there not water available where you were staying, that is, with your

5 sister?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Why was that?

8 A. Well, because of the war.

9 Q. To your knowledge, was there electricity available at your

10 sister's place when you were living there or staying there?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And why was that?

13 A. Again because of the living conditions during the war. There was

14 no water or electricity.

15 Q. How far from your sister's place was the nearest place where you

16 could fetch water?

17 A. Thirty minutes to one hour, approximately.

18 Q. Before that day, had you gone to fetch water?

19 A. Yes, we had.

20 Q. How many people were living in the same place as you at that

21 stage? What number of people?

22 A. No, I cannot tell you the exact number.

23 Q. Approximately?

24 A. I really don't know. I don't want to make a mistake.

25 Q. All right. When you went to fetch water with your two friends,

Page 2590












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2591

1 did you intend to fetch water for just yourself or for other people as

2 well?

3 A. Just myself.

4 Q. Did you take anything with you to put the water in? What did

5 you --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did you take for that purpose?

8 A. Jerrycans and a cart, wheelbarrow.

9 Q. How many jerrycans, approximately?

10 A. Enough to fill the wheelbarrow, enough for us to be able to pull

11 the wheelbarrow.

12 Q. Had you gone to get water at that place before that day?

13 A. Yes, I had.

14 Q. How often would you go to get water?

15 A. When necessary.

16 Q. Would that be more than once a week?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would it be more than twice a week?

19 A. Every other day or every two or three days. It really depended.

20 When we ran out of water, we would go to collect some more.

21 Q. When you brought water back to the house, would other people use

22 that water as well?

23 A. No. When we collected water, it was usually for the people who

24 were living with us in that house. We all fetched water for ourselves.

25 Q. All right. When you had gone previously to collect water, was

Page 2592

1 there any particular time that you would do so?

2 A. Well, we would usually go early in the morning or at dusk, when

3 visibility is not so good. But sometimes when it was necessary, we would

4 also go during the day, in the afternoon hours, for example.

5 Q. You say that you would usually go at times when visibility is not

6 so good, that is, early in the morning or at dusk. Why would you do

7 that?

8 A. Well, so that the aggressor couldn't see us. They were shooting

9 at everyone, including civilians, everything they moved -- everything that

10 moved.

11 Q. Who do you mean by "the aggressor"?

12 A. I specifically mean Chetniks, that is, Bosnian Serbs or, rather,

13 the army of Bosnian Serbs.

14 Q. Why, then, would you sometimes -- I withdraw that.

15 You said that sometimes, when it was necessary, you would also go

16 during the day, in the afternoon hours, for example. When would it be

17 necessary?

18 A. When we ran out of water, that is, when we needed water for

19 drinking or cooking. Then it would be necessary for us to get some water,

20 and we would go and fetch it.

21 Q. What time was it, approximately, on the 5th of August, 1993, when

22 you went off to collect water?

23 A. I think it was sometime between noon or in the afternoon. Maybe

24 10.00. I cannot remember exactly what time it was.

25 Q. Do you remember why it was you went in daylight hours on that

Page 2593

1 occasion?

2 A. Because we didn't have any water left. So we had to collect some

3 more.

4 Q. What were you wearing?

5 A. I was wearing my running shoes, pair of trousers, and a T-shirt.

6 Q. How were you wearing your hair at that stage and how long was it?

7 A. I think it was a bit shorter than it is now.

8 Q. Do you remember whether it was in a ponytail or loose or what?

9 A. No. I don't think I can remember that detail.

10 Q. You said that one of the friends who was with you was Sabina

11 Zekovic. How was she dressed on that day when you went to collect water?

12 A. She had a T-shirt on, also a pair of trousers, and was wearing

13 tennis shoes.

14 Q. How old, approximately, was Sabina Zekovic at that time?

15 A. I don't know what was her exact age, but she's a year or maybe two

16 years older than myself.

17 Q. You also mentioned that you went with -- I'll withdraw that.

18 Who was the third person, the other friend who went with you?

19 A. Vildana Kapur.

20 Q. Was she associated with your family?

21 A. She was the sister of my brother-in-law.

22 Q. How old was she, approximately?

23 A. She was, I believe, the same age as Sabina Zekovic. So she was a

24 year or two older than myself.

25 Q. What was she wearing?

Page 2594

1 A. She was wearing a pair of blue jeans, a black T-shirt, and

2 sneakers.

3 Q. In order to collect the water, did you take your trolley and

4 jerrycans along a street?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was the name of the street?

7 A. Stara Cesta, the Old Road.

8 Q. What was the name of the place where you would collect the water?

9 A. Hotonj.

10 Q. Did you make it to Hotonj?

11 A. Yes, we did. It was actually on our way back. We had already

12 collected the water and we were going back.

13 Q. And did you make it home again?

14 A. No, we didn't. It happened on our way back in that street.

15 Q. Could you please tell the Tribunal what happened.

16 A. On the way back home, while we were still in Stara Cesta, shooting

17 started. We couldn't hear anything. We could only see fire, that is,

18 bullets striking around our feet, and we could see the flash from this

19 machine-gun, from the Death Sower, as we called it. We took shelter in an

20 orchard which was to our left side. We lay down, but Vildana didn't want

21 to lay down because she didn't want to get dirty so she just remained

22 standing near a tree and got wounded. I saw that she was bleeding. She

23 was bleeding from her left leg. And I ran down the meadow because there

24 was a kitchen, canteen, which belonged to the police station, in the

25 vicinity. And I called for help. And they took her to hospital.

Page 2595

1 Q. At the time the shooting started, was it coming from in front of

2 you, to the side of you, or from behind you?

3 A. In front of us.

4 Q. You mentioned that you could see the flash from this machine-gun,

5 from the Death Sower, as you called it. Were you familiar, at that stage,

6 as to where the confrontation lines were?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What side of the confrontation lines did you see the flash?

9 A. The shooting came from the aggressor's side.

10 Q. Did you hear or see anything indicating how close or where the

11 bullets came in relation to where you were?

12 A. I cannot tell you exactly where it was, but I could see it with my

13 own eye.

14 Q. What could you see?

15 A. I could see the aggressor's lines.

16 Q. Had you seen shooting in that area before that day?

17 A. Yes, I had.

18 Q. On any of those occasions, had you seen any flashes of guns, what

19 appeared to be guns? Guns' flashes, I should say.

20 A. Could you please repeat the question.

21 Q. Certainly. On any of those previous occasions, had you seen what

22 appeared to be gun flashes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage, I would like to have

Page 2596

1 shown to the witness Exhibit P3279C.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please -- or is that the -- oh,

3 yes, I see.

4 Q. Do you recognise yourself in the photograph?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, I refer to

7 photograph which, in the top right-hand corner, is numbered 0215-1436.

8 Q. Who is the gentleman who appears to the left of you?

9 A. My father.

10 MR. IERACE: Might the photograph be placed on the ELMO.

11 Q. Approximately when was this photograph taken?

12 A. I couldn't tell you exactly.

13 Q. All right. Do you remember whether it was in the last 12 months

14 or two years?

15 A. I think it was in the last 12 months.

16 Q. What is the street on which you are standing in the photograph?

17 A. Stara Cesta.

18 Q. I think you said earlier that was the name of the street along

19 which you went to collect water. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And I take it it's the street on which you were when the shooting

22 started. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What can you say about the part of the road that appears in the

25 photograph in relation to where you were when the shooting started?

Page 2597

1 A. The very spot where I was, where you can see me standing.

2 Q. What direction were you walking in at the time the shooting

3 started? In other words, were you walking towards the camera or away from

4 the camera?

5 A. Towards the camera.

6 Q. Would you please now turn to the second of the two photographs in

7 front of you. And on the top right-hand corner, the number 0215-1439

8 appears.

9 Do you recognise anything which appears in that photograph?

10 A. I recognise the photograph, but I don't think that this is it.

11 Q. All right. Do you see, on the skyline towards the left of the

12 photograph, there appears to be a tower on top of a hill?

13 A. Yes, and I know what it is.

14 Q. What hill is that?

15 A. Hum.

16 Q. Do you see, coming down from the tower and to the right, there

17 appears to be a mosque, coloured white?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Do you recognise that particular mosque?

20 A. It's not very clear, but I think that this is the Kobilja Glava

21 mosque.

22 Q. Are you able to indicate approximately in the photograph the area

23 where you were when you were shot - withdraw that - when the shooting

24 started?

25 A. No, not on this photograph.

Page 2598












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2599

1 Q. All right.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown 360-degree

3 electronically joined photograph, which is P3279A.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

5 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President. Would you allow me a

6 moment.

7 Mr. President, there are two electronically joined photographs to

8 be shown to this witness. The Exhibit Number is 3279A. I would ask the

9 first of those be shown.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

11 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, an image now

12 appears on the screen that depicts a road or a street with a white-walled

13 house to the right and a culvert to the left of the road. The road

14 appears to be sealed.

15 Q. Do you recognise the street that appears -- or the road that

16 appears in the image in front of you?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. What is it?

19 A. It is the street that we took on our way back, after we had

20 collected water.

21 Q. I think you said the name of that street was Stara Cesta. Is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Having regard to the photograph in front of you, were you facing

25 away from the camera or towards the camera at the time that the shooting

Page 2600

1 started?

2 A. Towards the camera.

3 MR. IERACE: I'd ask that the image be panned to the left slowly.

4 Please stop there.

5 Q. Now, you said that when the shooting started, you moved off the

6 road. Do you see where you moved to, or at least which direction you

7 moved to, from the image which is in front of you now?

8 A. Yes; to the left, to the orchards that you can see on the

9 photograph.

10 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, there are some

11 large drainage-type pipes that appear in the bottom left hand of the

12 screen, and there appears to be some low grass and some trees on an

13 embankment to the left of the road.

14 I'd ask that the image continue to be panned to the left. Please

15 pause at that point.

16 Q. I think the photograph in front of you now shows a number of trees

17 on a grassy area above the culvert to the side of the road. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are you able to see where it was that you took shelter in that

21 image?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you describe to us that position?

24 A. It can be seen on the photograph. There is a concrete pillar on

25 the photograph, and from that pillar diagonally towards the left there is

Page 2601

1 a very thin tree behind which Vildana Kapur hid, whereas we remained

2 laying on the ground.

3 Q. Could you tell us whereabouts in the image the concrete pillar

4 is? In other words, is it in the centre of the picture or to the left or

5 to the right?

6 A. In the middle, ahead.

7 Q. Is it in a shady area or a sunny area?

8 A. There is a shadow.

9 Q. All right.

10 A. A small shaded portion, and it is in front of it.

11 MR. IERACE: I'd ask that the image be further zoomed in just

12 above the sunny area where there appears to be a slight ridge or

13 embankment. All right. Please pause there.

14 Q. Do you see what appears to be a black band around a cylindrical

15 object on the ridge which is in shadow?

16 A. Yes. That is the concrete pillar I told you about.

17 Q. Thank you for that. You were explaining to us whereabouts Vildana

18 Kapur took shelter. Could you explain that position again in relation

19 again to the concrete pillar.

20 A. To the left in relation to the concrete pillar, where you can see

21 this thin tree. Well, she hid behind it.

22 Q. Is that the thin tree which is immediately to the left and a

23 little bit closer to the camera?

24 A. It is in the middle between two somewhat thicker trees.

25 MR. IERACE: I ask that the image be panned back so that we can

Page 2602

1 see more. Please keep going. Further. Further. All right. And please

2 continue panning to the left. Please pause there.

3 Q. Now, do you see there appears to be a break in the road surface,

4 that is, a break in the bitumen in the foreground of the image in front of

5 you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you still have in front of you the two photographs which you

8 looked at earlier?

9 MR. IERACE: For the transcript that's P3279C.

10 Q. Would you please look at that photograph and compare it to the

11 image on the screen. Actually, you could put the photograph right in

12 front of you so you can look at the photograph and also look at the image

13 on the screen.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please put it just in front of

15 the witness so that she can properly compare it.


17 Q. Would you agree that we now have on the screen some of the area

18 which appears in the photograph in front of you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. Now, I think earlier you said that at the time the

21 shooting started, in relation to the photograph in front of you, that is

22 the hard copy photograph which shows your father as well, you were facing

23 towards the camera. Do you remember saying that earlier?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Please now look at the image on the screen. I take it from that

Page 2603

1 answer that you were also facing -- I'll withdraw that. That at the time

2 the shooting started, you were facing towards that camera as well?

3 MR. IERACE: I see that Mr. Piletta-Zanin is on his feet.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. I was looking at the screen. Yes.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It seems

6 to me that the transcript -- or maybe I have misread it. "I didn't see

7 the camera at that time" -- the way the phrase -- the question has been

8 phrased seems to me to be somewhat enigmatic to me.

9 MR. IERACE: I'll be happy to --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If you would, please. I need

11 some assistant -- assistance.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please assist Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. IERACE: I will. I will assist him. I withdraw the

14 question.

15 Q. Now, please look at the image on the screen in front of you.

16 Having regard to your evidence so far, I take it that the direction in

17 which you were walking on the road at the time you were shot -- I withdraw

18 that -- at the time the shooting started was in the direction coming

19 towards the camera. Is that correct?

20 A. It was in front of me. On the photograph, it is the location

21 where you can see my father, and the way I'm facing here on this

22 photograph is the direction that we took. As for the screen, it is the

23 opposite.

24 Q. All right. Now, again I invite you to compare the photograph to

25 the image on the screen. First of all, look at the photograph. Do you

Page 2604

1 see that behind you to the right there is a hedge?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you allow me to -- I see the

3 problem you are facing. And let me just see whether I can clarify the

4 issue.

5 On the hard copy photo, the photo where you are together with your

6 father, you testified that you went into the direction you were facing on

7 the photograph. That means that you come closer to the photographer, and

8 you are moving away from the cars behind you when the shooting started.

9 Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That would mean that if we look at the screen, could

12 perhaps this part of the -- yes. The picture on the screen looks the same

13 to me as the picture on the hard copy photo with the difference that there

14 are not three cars but just one car far away. Do I understand you well

15 that, when the shooting started, you moved away from that car and moved

16 towards where the camera is? That means approaching the person who would

17 have taken the picture.

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you now please turn the picture again to the

20 left, turning 180 degrees. Could that be done, since we are now in the

21 360 degrees. Please stop.

22 Would it also mean, Miss Sahic, that if you look now on the

23 screen, not on the photo any more, that when the shooting started, you

24 were moving away from the house which is now on the right-hand side and

25 just in front of you? So moving to the trees further on to the hills in

Page 2605

1 the further distance?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Did this assist you, Mr. Ierace?

4 MR. IERACE: I'm grateful, Mr. President.

5 Perhaps we could return to the image on the screen.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have to apologise because I've forgotten

7 about the break, and since the tape is almost empty. We'll resume at 1.00

8 since we are late now. We adjourn until then.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.41 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Miss Sahic, you still can hear us?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please come as close to the microphones as possible.

14 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

15 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might the image be

16 restored to the screen. That's the photographic image.



19 Q. You told us earlier that you could see the flash from the gun at

20 the time that the shooting started. Can you see in that image in front of

21 you now where that flash was?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. For the benefit of the transcript, the image shows the road with a

24 culvert to the left, and then a slope on the right that is sloping down

25 from the road. Can you describe, having regard to the image, where you

Page 2606












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2607

1 saw the flash?

2 A. It was on the road in front of these cracks, in front of that

3 crack there.

4 MR. IERACE: I ask that the operator zoom the photograph in --

5 withdraw that. Just stop for a moment.

6 Q. When you say a "crack," do you mean a crack on the road surface?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are you talking about where you were at the time that you saw the

9 flash?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. I'd like to ask you if you can see somewhere in that

12 photograph in front of you at the moment where you saw the actual flash of

13 the gun itself. Not where you were standing when you saw it, but rather

14 where you saw the flash to be.

15 A. It was a flash from the bullet that hit the asphalt, the road.

16 Q. All right. Did you hear any gunfire sounds at the time of the

17 shooting?

18 A. It was all split-second timing. It all happened out of the blue,

19 suddenly.

20 Q. You've told us that you were positioned approximately where the

21 break in the road surface appears, and I think you described it as a

22 crack. And from your earlier evidence, it would seem -- I'll stop at that

23 point.

24 Is that the case, you were standing where there was a break in the

25 road surface when you heard the shooting?

Page 2608

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you were facing up the road as it appears in the image in

3 front of you now?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do apologise,

6 but I'd like us to be more specific. Are we speaking about the

7 three-dimensional photograph or the other photograph? Because I saw that

8 there were cracks on both in apparently different positions. So could I

9 ask Mr. Ierace's assistance with more specifics in that regard? Thank

10 you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained. As a matter of fact, in

12 the testimony before, there are two cracks.

13 MR. IERACE: Might the image be restored to the screen?

14 Q. Looking at the image on the screen in front of you -- I'll

15 withdraw that.

16 When the shooting occurred, I think you said earlier that it came

17 from in front of you. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. It would follow from your earlier evidence that the area in front

20 of you was towards the ridge or hill which appears at the end of the

21 road. Would you agree with that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are you able to say whether, based on what you saw and heard, that

24 was the area from which the shooting appeared to originate?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2609

1 Q. In this electronic photograph which you were shown before the

2 break, from time to time we have seen some pipes lying in the culvert. Do

3 you recall seeing those pipes?

4 A. They weren't there at the time.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. The photographs were taken quite awhile afterwards.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage, I would like the

8 witness and the rest of the Trial Chamber to see a second 360-degree

9 photograph. Might that be shown now? It's the same exhibit number.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The same exhibit number --

11 MR. IERACE: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- but a different 360-degree photograph. Could it

13 be shown on the screen? Yes. Yes. Perhaps I'm a bit impatient. I

14 apologise for that.

15 MR. IERACE: I think for the benefit of the transcript, we now see

16 a grassy slope with some trees, and to the bottom of the slope, to the

17 right of the image, there appears to be a road.

18 Q. Do you recognise what appears in that photograph?

19 A. This photograph isn't quite clear to me. I suppose it's from the

20 angle that the photograph was taken.

21 MR. IERACE: I ask that the photograph be panned slowly to the

22 left. Please keep panning to the left. Please pause there.

23 Q. All right. Now, I think we have just seen 360 degrees from the

24 camera position. Do you recognise that area?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2610

1 Q. Where is it?

2 A. That's the road which we call Stara Cesta, or Old Road, and the

3 meadow with the orchard, with the fruit trees, where it happened.

4 Q. As the photograph moved around, did you notice where you took

5 cover?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you also notice where Vildana Kapur took cover?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We'll go around once more, and could you please tell us when to

10 stop as you see either of those two positions, where you took cover and

11 where Vildana Kapur took cover. Do you understand? Do you understand

12 what I would like you to do?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. IERACE: Please move the image to the left.

15 A. On the meadow there, next to the pillar. The picture's not quite

16 clear, but there's the thin tree that I pointed out to you earlier on.

17 MR. IERACE: All right. Pause the image there. Now, for the

18 benefit of the transcript, again we see a green lawn area with tree

19 shadows on it and, beyond that, a ridge running across the image, which is

20 in shadow. We see in silhouette a trunk which is split fairly close to

21 the ground, and beyond it, in shadow, what appears to be a pillar with a

22 black horizontal band.

23 Q. You've referred to the tree which is in front of the pillar. Who

24 took shelter there?

25 A. To the left of the pillar, slightly to the left. That's the tree

Page 2611

1 where Vildana Kapur was.

2 Q. All right.

3 MR. IERACE: Please continue to move the image to the left.

4 Q. And please indicate when you see the position where you took

5 cover.

6 A. It's precisely that tree there, the one on the left, to the left

7 of the pillar.

8 Q. I think in the image we can see at the moment, there is the sun,

9 which appears as a white area in the sky. Could you describe the tree in

10 relation to the position of the sun.

11 A. Underneath, just below it.

12 Q. Do you mean slightly to the left or slightly to the right?

13 A. Slightly to the left.

14 Q. All right. Who took shelter there?

15 A. Vildana Kapur.

16 Q. And who took shelter at the other position that you pointed out?

17 A. Sabina Zekovic, on the grassy patch where we lay down, and I did,

18 too.

19 Q. Do you mean by that that you took shelter at the same place as

20 Sabina Zekovic?

21 A. Near the tree. I can't tell you the exact spot now. But near

22 this tree, we lay down, the two of us. We lay down on the grass.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you. I don't require to see the image any

25 more at this stage.

Page 2612

1 Q. Now, you told us that Vildana Kapur you think was a few years

2 older than you. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know whether or not she was working or studying or doing

5 anything else at that stage?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You've told us that you saw blood on her left leg during or after

8 the shooting. Did she say anything as to whether or not she had been

9 injured during that episode?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did she say?

12 A. That she had been wounded.

13 Q. Did you notice whether she appeared to have any difficulty in

14 moving after she said that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Tell us what you saw.

17 A. She couldn't move. She was holding her leg with her hands, and

18 she was screaming out that she was wounded.

19 Q. What leg was she holding, which one?

20 A. Her left leg.

21 Q. Did you notice the presence of any blood?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Whereabouts?

24 A. On her jeans, I saw blood streaming down her leg.

25 Q. Which leg?

Page 2613

1 A. Her left leg.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I see in the transcript a couple of lines

3 before that the witness testified that you've told us that you saw blood

4 on her left leg during or after the shooting. So it seems a bit

5 repetitious.

6 MR. IERACE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. At any stage -- withdraw that. At the time the shooting started,

8 was there anyone else around that you saw, apart from your two friends?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you notice around that time whether there were any military --

11 withdraw that. Did you see any military vehicles or other military

12 equipment in the vicinity at the time of the shooting?

13 A. No.

14 Q. At around that time, had you heard any shooting or other firing of

15 weaponry appearing to come from the area where you were?

16 A. I heard some shooting, but not that day. I heard that there had

17 been shooting, but not that day, and that's why we decided to go and fetch

18 water that day.

19 Q. Having regard to your last answer, had you heard any shooting at

20 any stage earlier that day, that is, before the shooting when Vildana

21 Kapur was hit?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When was that?

24 A. Well, there was gunfire all the time, every day. One couldn't

25 really say when it would start, at what time, or where.

Page 2614












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2615

1 Q. When you earlier said, "I heard some shooting but not that day,"

2 did you mean - pardon me - did you mean by that you had not heard shooting

3 that day coming from the area where you were?

4 A. I don't understand your question.

5 Q. All right. You've told us that there was gunfire all the time

6 every day.

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. Did that apply to the -- to where you were living? In other

9 words, you could hear that from where you were living?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Had you ever heard gunfire apparently the result of weapons being

12 fired from anywhere in the vicinity of where Vildana was shot?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How long before Vildana was shot did you hear that?

15 A. I wouldn't remember exactly.

16 Q. All right. Was it the same day that Vildana was shot?

17 A. No.

18 Q. All right.

19 MR. IERACE: That completes the examination-in-chief,

20 Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Is the Defence ready for

22 cross-examining the witness? Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you

24 very much. With the permission of your Chamber, I will cross-examine this

25 witness, with your leave.

Page 2616

1 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the interpreters are having

2 difficulty hearing you. If you could please move the microphone closer to

3 you or speak up. Thank you.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, it only means getting --

5 putting the microphone higher up, and I shall be very happy to do it. And

6 is it now better for the interpreters?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Sahic, the Defence will now put questions to

8 you.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

12 Q. [Interpretation] To begin with, good afternoon, Witness, and thank

13 you for coming here. You several times answers [as interpreted], and

14 these are pages 57, line 99 [as interpreted], you answered a question that

15 was asked you by the Prosecution whether it was these -- the -- who was

16 firing, and you said it was aggressors and then you said it was Chetniks.

17 Now, my question is as follows: Could you tell this Chamber what is

18 exactly a Chetnik?

19 A. A Chetnik is a person who killed civilians or anything that moved

20 on the surface. A Chetnik and -- I do not draw a mark of equality between

21 a Chetnik and a Serb. Serbs are people like everybody else, who respect

22 and observe their faith, and Chetniks are those who killed, who even

23 killed civilians.

24 Q. And therefore, if I am following you, to your mind a Chetnik is a

25 man who kills without distinction, without discrimination.

Page 2617

1 A. I don't understand. What person?

2 Q. I will repeat my question. For you, therefore, madam, according

3 to your definition, a Chetnik is a person who kills indiscriminately.

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. Witness, I deduce this, and that -- hence my question. Could one

6 say then that there were some Chetniks in the Bosnia -- in the army of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which we call Bosniak here, or not?

8 MR. IERACE: I object.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: If I go back a few questions, Mr. Piletta-Zanin said

11 that earlier the witness had said the firing came from the aggressors,

12 "and then you said it was Chetniks." At that stage, Mr. Piletta-Zanin

13 did not add the third description which the witness gave earlier on. I

14 did not object at that time, having regard to the rest of the question,

15 but now it becomes relevant. And if one goes back to the page at line

16 reference that he gave, one will see that third category.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that would be exactly line -- page -- I

18 think it was -- could you assist me in the ...

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Are you asking me or --

20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking the assistance of both of you since you

21 both seem to know what page it was and I do not.

22 MR. IERACE: It's page 57, line 21.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Sixty-seven?

24 MR. IERACE: Fifty-seven.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Fifty-seven. Let me just find it. Fifty-seven, and

Page 2618

1 you said line --

2 MR. IERACE: Twenty-one.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please, when you refer to the earlier

4 statement, you've got it in front of you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, quote then

5 since there is some objection, more in detail.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall be happy to do that,

7 Your Honour.

8 Q. Very well. As I was saying, page 57, line 21. And perhaps it

9 could be of interest. Yes. The question that was asked of you was: When

10 you spoke about the aggressors --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Do you want me to quote the

12 text, Mr. President, now?

13 JUDGE ORIE: You're referring to the answer earlier given, and the

14 Prosecution objects since you're quoting only part of it, and now you're

15 asking whether there were any Chetniks in the Bosnia-Herzegovinan army,

16 and as far as I understand, the objection is that the witness earlier

17 indicated in what army she situated the Chetniks quite precisely.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But, Mr. President, the

19 objection, if I understood Mr. Ierace, and that is one of numerous

20 objections that we heard today, had to do that I was referring imprecisely

21 to an answer, and the witness answered the question and said that it was

22 Chetniks or Serbs and so on and so forth. What I said, having heard the

23 witness's answer to my question, and that was: "A Chetnik is a person who

24 kills indiscriminately."

25 Now I'm now asking my question, a second question, in relation to

Page 2619

1 what was said, and I do not see that this objection can stand.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the objection stands, and I'll explain to you

3 why, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. In the answer to the question of the Prosecution,

4 I think the witness gave a -- specified more in detail what a Chetnik was

5 as far as the ethnicity is concerned, and also she situates Chetniks in a

6 specific army. You later asked her to explain what she exactly meant by

7 that, and then I think she gave a further explanation not in contradiction

8 what she said before, but she explained that she would make a distinction

9 between other Serbians and Chetniks by the indiscriminate shooting or

10 killing. So that was a further precision, but she did not take any

11 distance from the definition given at that time. I do understand it's

12 only a limited reference to what at that time she said Chetniks were.

13 But you're now asking her whether they were in another army than

14 she situated them. Apart from the relevance, you first then should ask

15 her whether this earlier answer was correct or not.

16 But please proceed, and keep in mind what I said about it.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

18 will then move on to another question.

19 Q. Sir -- Witness, can we take it as a principal -- if I understood

20 you well -- that the aggressors are always Chetniks. Is that it?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. Thank you for your answer.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my other

24 questions will be referring to this electronic image. And --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then, please, show it on the screen again.

Page 2620

1 MR. IERACE: Perhaps Mr. Piletta-Zanin could indicate whether he

2 wishes the first or the second --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, on the road or in the orchard.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I understand

5 Mr. Ierace well, there are two electronic images with the same reference.

6 So perhaps Mr. Ierace could give me the reference. We have two of them,

7 and I really do not know. I must admit that I am lost, and I really do

8 not know now.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there's one document number

10 attached to this photograph. And I'd just like to know, since I assume

11 that you know what you're questioning about, that you want the road or the

12 orchard?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Both, both, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Which one first?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The road.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The road.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we now see this road?

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think we're still waiting for it to be shown on the

20 screen, as far as I can see.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, then --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have now the orchard on the screen. So

23 could we please have the -- it's a bit impractical, Mr. Ierace, to have

24 two different 360 degrees photographs in the same number.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can tell you that this is the only

Page 2621

1 incident where there are two.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm only too glad to hear so.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as soon as the other picture is

4 on the screen.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now I have problem with the

6 screen because, on my screen, I can't see anything. Is that normal? Is

7 that all right?

8 THE REGISTRAR: It does take some time to cue up. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You should see it on the screen now.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I now want to be clear. Is

11 that the road or what? I really need Mr. Ierace's assistance. Is that

12 the road?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have anything on your screen at this moment,

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? A picture?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, because what I see --

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... the screen. As

17 far as I can see now, and I can see some seven screens, that there has

18 always been a road on the screen with a small part of a white building

19 with a small part of a red roof on the outer right-hand side of the

20 picture. Is that what you have got in front of you?

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, this is exactly it. And

23 I thank you. The question that I wanted to ask with regard to this type

24 of photograph is would it be possible to make it so that the camera takes

25 also the elevation, that is, not to move only horizontally, to the left

Page 2622












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2623

1 horizontal, but to zoom it and to raise it up. I don't know whether it is

2 technically possible.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You could just ask. Could it be zoomed in the

4 picture as we have it now. Yes.

5 And would you please indicate, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether we are

6 in the right position or you should like to be a bit to the left or a bit

7 to the right and whether you want to go upwards or downwards.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perfect, perfect,

9 Mr. President. And now, can we also do, and I'm asking the witness, a 360

10 degrees, but keeping this elevation? I think it wasn't used before, but I

11 would like to have it this way, please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] 360 degrees.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could that be slowly. Perhaps, yes, that's the

15 direction we had before.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Stop. Can we go a little bit

17 back. I'm sorry, but can we slowly move to the right now. A little bit

18 more. Can we -- there now. Thank you.

19 Can you now zoom it in the direction of the elevation of that hill

20 that we see on the horizon, please.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I think we are asking for zoom. Yes.

22 You want it further? Yes.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a little bit more,

24 please. And a little bit more. Right.

25 Q. So the question is as follows: Can you identify this ridge which

Page 2624

1 we see in the upper part of the photograph before you? And I'm saying for

2 the transcript that we see here a kind of a rocky ridge with a dome about

3 it which is not very visible but which looks like a barren outcrop.

4 A. Yes, I can see the place exactly. And below that, beneath that

5 rock, one can see something white. But that is just a cluster of houses

6 from which the shot came.

7 Q. My question is, or was, as follows: With a reference to this

8 elevation which I just mentioned, could you please give us the name of

9 that place, of that elevation?

10 A. Yes, I can.

11 Q. So what is it called?

12 A. That place beneath that dome, beneath this outcrop, is called

13 Poljine.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I need to ask that question

15 again. I thought I had asked it clearly.

16 Q. Madam, I wasn't asking you what was beneath or above but the name

17 of that elevation which you see on the screen. If you don't know it, say

18 you don't know. But just a moment ago, I think I heard you say yes.

19 A. Yes, that is called Poljine.

20 Q. So the name of this hill is Poljine. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when I look at the clock, I see

24 that it's a quarter to 2.00. Would there be a suitable moment shortly to

25 interrupt the cross-examination?

Page 2625

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. The Defence also wishes

2 to comply with the time, and we shall then resume our examination

3 tomorrow.


5 Ms. Sahic, for all kind of practical reasons, we have to stop for

6 today. This will mean that we resume tomorrow morning at 9.00, and then

7 the examination will continue.

8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're still standing. Was there any practical

9 problem or is it just... ?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I was simply

11 absentminded. I'm sorry.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, in

13 this same courtroom.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

15 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on

16 Wednesday, the 30th day of January, 2002,

17 at 9.00 a.m.