1 Wednesday, 30 January 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. I apologise for being a
9 bit late, for practical reasons. I think before we resume with the
10 cross-examination of the witness, I would just like to draw your attention
11 to two issues. The first one is that no formal decision had yet been
12 taken on the tendering into evidence of the previous statement of Witness
13 L, although I indicated to the Prosecution that there was a fair chance
14 that it would not be admitted into evidence. The final decision is in
15 accordance with the indication I gave at that moment to the parties.
16 Then a second issue: I have been rethinking what happened
17 yesterday as far as the cross-examination was concerned about
18 indiscriminate shooting in what army. I would just make quite clear to
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin that I do not oppose in any way to him putting these
20 kinds of questions to the witness, because as far as I understood, he
21 wanted to know whether the witness was aware of indiscriminate shooting
22 not only in the army she referred to, the Republika Srpska army, but also
23 in the other army. So I do not mind in whatever way that you put such a
24 question to the witness, but I thought it was not necessary to twist the
25 answer already given by the witness in such a way that it would seem some
1 kind of logic. There was nothing logical in it. It was just a question
2 on whether she thought that indiscriminate shooting perhaps would have
3 happened also in the other army. So I do not oppose about the question; I
4 was mainly opposing about the way in which the question was presented to
5 the witness.
6 Having said this, I think we could continue with the
7 cross-examination -- Mr. Ierace.
8 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I merely wish to inform
9 the Trial Chamber that following the completion of the evidence of this
10 witness, I propose to be absent during the -- at least part of the
11 examination of the following two witnesses, if that is acceptable to the
12 Trial Chamber.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's acceptable. We have to be very careful
14 what the other party says during your absence. As you might have noticed,
15 I went through the transcript on that specific point.
16 So then Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are ready to continue the
17 cross-examination of the witness?
18 Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the witness.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. I
20 should like to take the opportunity of this short break to tell the
21 Chamber that I will be very careful and cautious not to say anything in
22 absence of anyone anything that might be interpreted as inadvertent.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Ms. Sahic. Do you hear me?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I do not speak a lot of Serbo-Croatian, but "dobro
3 jutro" is something I do understand by now. The cross-examination by the
4 Defence will be continued. I'd just like to remind you that you are still
5 bound by the solemn declaration as you made yesterday at the beginning of
6 your testimony.
7 Please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 WITNESS: IFETA SAHIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]
12 Q. First of all, for the benefit of the interpreters, whom I should
13 like to thank, that if there's any problem with hearing me, please let me
15 Madam, thank you for coming back to the courtroom. I should like
16 to go back to the system which I criticized of electronically manipulated
17 photographs. I should like to see put on the screen the same photograph
18 that we were looking at together at the end of the last session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could it please be put on the screen.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, I
21 have the image on the screen. I hope everyone else does as well. May I
22 proceed? Does the witness have the image on the screen? Thank you.
23 For the benefit of the technical booth, could we have some panning
24 from right to left in a circular motion, please. Thank you. And could we
25 zoom it a little bit forward. Thank you. And a little up, yes, so that
1 we can see the horizon. And if you would please continue panning the
2 image. A little more. Yes. Thank you. We can stop here.
3 Q. Witness, could you please tell us the name of the hills that you
4 see in the image at this moment.
5 A. Well, it is difficult for me to tell which mountain it is.
6 Q. Very well. Let us continue, please. Good. We can stop here.
7 But I should like to have a more -- a closer look of the photograph, to
8 zoom backwards. I think that is the right term. Thank you.
9 Witness, on this image, you see, I believe, a building. In the
10 centre of the image, in the background. What is that building? Can you
11 see a white building in the centre of the screen?
12 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
13 Q. What is this building? Can you tell us about it?
14 A. That is the mosque at Kobilja Glava.
15 Q. Thank you. On the other hand, there is a partially obscured
16 building that we can see on the left. Is this the building in front of
17 which you happened to be at the moment the shooting started? Is that
19 A. Yes. It happened on this road that you can see next to the house.
20 Q. And if my memory serves me well, you were in the immediate
21 vicinity of this building that we can see only partially. And how many
22 metres away from the house were you?
23 A. Yes. You can see a hole on the road, and that is where I was.
24 Q. So how far from the building? How many metres from the building
25 were you?
1 A. I'm sorry, but I didn't measure the distance at that moment. It
2 was very difficult for me to tell how far I was from this building or from
3 the greenery here.
4 Q. But madam, I should like you to have a look at another photograph,
5 which is 02151426 [as interpreted], a photograph which has been submitted
6 by the Prosecution. Has this photograph been shown to the witness? Yes.
7 You have a photograph in front of you, madam. There is a person
8 shown on this photograph that you told us was your father. Is that
10 JUDGE ORIE: Would you just allow me, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I'm
11 looking at the screen. I see -- I don't know whether you said it or
12 whether it's a mistake, but it says 02151426.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I said 36.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We are looking at the photo last two digits being 36.
15 Yes, please proceed.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
17 are talking about the same photograph.
18 Q. Madam, you testified yesterday when talking about this photograph
19 that at the relevant times you were standing on this particular location
20 when the shooting started. Am I correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Madam, you also told us that the shooting came from the area in
23 front of you, ahead of you; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Witness, I should like to know something about the corner of this
1 building that we can see on the photograph. Is that the same corner that
2 we saw on the previous picture?
3 A. I'm sorry. I don't -- I don't understand.
4 Q. Very well. A moment ago you saw a computerised photograph. I
5 know that it was not very clear, but that's how it is. And we stopped a
6 certain point on this photograph and we were looking at the corner of a
7 building. And I'm now asking you a question about this photograph. Two
8 corners on these two documents, the one that you saw a moment ago and that
9 you see here in front of you, are they the same corners of the same
11 A. No.
12 Q. This is not one and the same building? I should like to be
13 perfectly clear, and let me refer myself to the translation, because the
14 answer might be very important?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
16 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I notice that the witness
17 is looking at the photograph on the screen.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. IERACE: And having regard to the way it is placed on the
20 ELMO, I don't think it's possible in its depiction on the screen to see
21 the building to which my friend refers. So therefore I ask that the image
22 be replaced on the screen, or alternatively the witness look at the photo
23 directly and that Mr. Piletta-Zanin refers her again to the corner of the
24 building which he has in mind. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although I think this is a good suggestion,
1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to at least have the whole picture on the screen
2 instead of just part of it. Could it be put on the ELMO in such a way?
3 Perhaps I would prefer that, the whole picture.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that is one of
5 the reasons why I objected to the use of this electronically manipulated
6 photograph. They're very difficult to use in the courtroom. So I was
7 referring to the computerised photograph that we saw a moment ago, and I
8 should like to have it back on the screen and to see the same spot where
9 we stopped before the intervention of Mr. Ierace. Could we see the
10 electronically manipulated photograph once again, please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could it please be put on the video. Yes, it's
12 there, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please put on your microphone, Mr. ...
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies. Thank you,
16 Mr. President.
17 Q. Madam, you see a corner of a building here that -- and we can also
18 see a portion of the roof. Is this portion of the building here the same
19 as the one that we can see on photograph whose last three digits are 436?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Very well. I thought I heard you say no, but now we have received
22 an affirmative answer. Thank you very much.
23 Witness, how many metres or even centimetres were you away from
24 this building at the moment the shooting started? What was the distance
25 between you and this building?
1 A. I believe I already answered your question. I don't know exactly
2 what the distance was.
3 Q. Very well. Madam, I could perhaps ask you to help us with this
4 problem on the photograph. You know the area and you see the photograph.
5 Could you tell us approximately what the distance was between the corner
6 of the building and you? Could you tell us that now by looking at the
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness either cannot or
9 doesn't want to answer, so I will move to another question. Thank you.
10 MR. IERACE: I object.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the middle of the
12 photograph we can see --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: Yes, I object to that, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have a full right to ask
16 whatever questions you want to put to the witness, but any comments, even
17 if the witness is not answering or whether she is unwilling or not capable
18 of doing so are not appropriate at this moment, and of course at a later
19 stage you can give whatever comment you want during your closing
20 statement, but not during the examination of the witness.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me address
22 my apologies to the Chamber. My --
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just wanted to show -- thank
1 Q. Let me ask another question, because my previous question remained
2 unanswered. My question is as follows: Madam, to the left side from the
3 position which you occupied on photograph 436, do you see a wall?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This wall was probably one metre and 50 centimetres high, more or
6 less; is that correct?
7 A. No. I couldn't tell you exactly, but I think that your questions
8 are useless. They have nothing to do with the event. You're talking
9 about a house or a wall. I mean, I don't see the connection with the
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Sahic, if a question is put to you, the
12 Prosecution, if they think that the question is of no importance
13 whatsoever, they can object against the question. The Chamber can also
14 ask the Defence what the relevance of the question is. But as long as the
15 question is there and as long as the Chamber and the Prosecution have not
16 expressed any objection as far as the relevance is concerned, I would like
17 you to answer the question. Of course, what's in your mind about
18 relevance, that's up to you, but I would invite you just to answer the
19 question without commenting on the relevance of it. Yes?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: On the other hand, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are talking
23 about a wall and you're talking about a wall of one metre and 50 high, so
24 I am afraid that there might be some confusion as to what wall you -- let
25 me just see.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said to the
2 left on the photograph, and as far as I'm concerned, I see only one wall
3 on the left side. And I said that it was 1.50 metres tall, and I believe
4 I was clear. I mentioned where it was situated on this photograph.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please -- [Previous translation
6 continues] ...
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Unless we have a different
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's first clarify. We have photograph 436.
10 On the left-hand side of the photograph I see someone standing, and I see
11 just a tiny, little part of a roof. I have some difficulties in locating
12 a wall there. So would you please -- and well, the roof -- I must assume
13 is supported by a wall which is far higher than 1 metre and 50. Could you
14 please -- if I cannot understand what your question is, the witness might
15 have difficulties as well. So would you please be more precise on that.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can perhaps
17 check the transcript, but I can also ask the question once again. I
18 said -- I was speaking in French - to witness's left.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I did now follow --
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] To her left.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I did now follow your question in French. The
22 transcript says on the left part of the photo, and what you're saying now
23 in French is a sa gauche. That means --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I'm so sorry for this. I will have to look at
25 the translation all the time, but I'm afraid it's not possible. So I'll
1 go ahead in French.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'll assist you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. As you have
3 seen, I now do understand that you are putting a question about a wall
4 that is opposite to the house, the other side of the road, well let's say
5 the side of the road where the blue demolished car is, where, if you talk
6 about a wall, that's stones at an elevation. I think that's what your
7 question was about. Am I correct in understanding?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You have perfectly understood
9 my question, Your Honour, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then please, Ms. Sahic, the question was not about a
11 wall of the house but was about a wall just at the other side of the road
12 where you might see some stones. Could you then please answer the
13 question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the question could be asked again,
15 Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
17 Would you please repeat the question about that wall.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I'm
19 really sorry about having these problems in interpretation, but it
20 requires lots of concentration on my part.
21 Q. Madam, to your left side, to my left, there is a wall on this
22 photograph; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Madam, yesterday you spoke about an orchard in which
25 you took shelter. That orchard, was it situated to my left, that is, to
1 your left, or to your right on this photograph?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm still afraid that a lot of
3 confusion about left and right will exist.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I said my left.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand.
6 Ms. Sahic, when you're talking about the orchard, was it at the
7 side of the road where the blue demolished car is or was it on the other
8 side, where the house of which the roof can be partially seen?
9 A. This was above the blue destroyed car, above that little half wall
10 from the stones.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when I'm saying
13 to my left or to my right, but I can maybe clarify.
14 Q. Witness, would you agree with me that on your right, at the time,
15 so where your father stands on the photograph at a short distance from
16 you, between you and the house, were you there then?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I would like to remind you, Witness, where you were wounded at the
19 time of the shots?
20 A. This did not happen on the road, but it was up in the orchard, but
21 I was not wounded, but Vildana Kapur.
22 Q. You told me that the shots took place in the orchard?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please be more precise
24 in your questioning, since the witness has testified that the shooting
25 started, that they were seeking shelter in the orchard. So when you're
1 talking about the shooting, would you please indicate clearly whether you
2 talk about the beginning of the shooting or about the moment when someone,
3 as has been testified, was hit by a bullet.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise,
5 but perhaps this happens because of the languages that I'm following.
6 Q. Witness, did I understand you correctly that you said that the
7 shots by which your friend was wounded happened in the orchard while you
8 were in the orchard?
9 A. Could I give an explanation as to -- in my answer?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may explain what you mean.
11 A. The shooting started on the road that you can see on the
12 photograph, where there are cracks. After that, we hid in that shelter,
13 in the orchard, where we took shelter, and Vildana Kapur was standing
14 behind a tree, where she was wounded.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you for this answer. You said that your friend Mrs. Kapur
17 was a couple of years older than you; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the sake of the transcript, as far as I
20 understand the question, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you asked whether the witness
21 testified that her friend was one or two years older than she was. I
22 heard in the translation "a couple of years."
23 Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. We will check the
25 transcript, but my recollection is that the witness said that her other
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 friend was a year or two older and that Mrs. Kapur --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness said that they
3 were one or two years older.
4 MR. IERACE: And --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Mr. Ierace is drawing your attention to the
6 fact that there were two friends there, and we have to check carefully
7 about which friend we're speaking now. So could you -- if the --
8 Mr. Ierace, did you find --
9 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The relevant --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you assist Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. IERACE: Yes. The relevant page is 2585 and there's a
12 relevant passage at line 15 and line 23. The effect of it is that the
13 question posed by Mr. Piletta-Zanin correctly reflects the evidence.
14 Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your assistance.
16 And I think the correction as far as the translation is concerned,
17 a couple of years is one or two years older. That's what your question
18 was about.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I said in French was
20 exactly what I said, is one or two years older.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I heard the translation "a couple of years."
22 And let me just -- but I try to follow in my right ear what you say in
23 French and with my left ear --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I know the problem, sir.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, I have no problem. Please proceed,
1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just to go back to what you
3 were saying, you said before the interruption, you said that your friend
4 was one or two years older than you were; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How old is your friend now, Mrs. Kapur?
7 A. The same, one or two years.
8 Q. No. My question, in French, and for the translators too: What
9 does your friend do now? Thank you.
10 A. What she is doing? I don't know what she is doing.
11 Q. Is it not true to say that this person was born in 1972?
12 A. I am not quite sure about her date of birth. That's what I said.
13 Q. Yes. You said in your testimony that after the incident you went
14 down, out of the orchard, to get some help. You went to a police station
15 to get some help. Could you tell us where the police station was?
16 A. Below this road there was a kitchen. There was -- where the
17 policemen went to get their meals. You cannot see it on this photograph,
18 but below there, there is a public kitchen.
19 Q. So below this -- the road below is the road that you indicated.
20 Is the road --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel repeat the name of the road.
22 A. Yes, that is the name of the road, Stara Cesti, the old road.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You were talking about a kitchen, a canteen. I believe that's
25 where meals were served at the time -- at meal times; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And these meal times, in general and in Sarajevo as well, were,
3 for instance, lunch-time, around noon; and in the evening, about 1800
4 hours, 1900 hours. Is that so?
5 A. At that time, when I went down for help, I don't know whether they
6 were having their lunch or whether they were having -- whether they were
7 on a break or whether they were just sitting, but that was the first
8 building I could get to to get some help. I was not paying attention as
9 to whether they were having their meal or whether they were on a break.
10 Q. But Witness, you said there were a number of people in uniforms
11 there at the time. Is that so?
12 A. No. These were policemen. These were not soldiers.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I stand to be corrected --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
15 MR. IERACE: Yes. I don't recall the witness saying that there
16 were a number of people in uniforms, and if that --
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.
18 MR. IERACE: All right.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I did not answer, but that was
20 exactly the point of my question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Mr. Ierace, your objection was that you did
22 not hear the witness say anything about people present in uniform; is that
24 MR. IERACE: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, indicate
1 where the witness testified, as you put to her -- you said that there were
2 a number of people in uniform there at the time; is that so? That was
3 your question. Would you please indicate where the witness testified that
4 there were a number of people in uniform.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. The
6 witness never used the term "uniform," but she did use the term
7 "policemen." So I believe that the point of my question would be whether
8 these people were in uniform or not, but I suppose that would be in the
9 interest of finding out the truth, I believe.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please refer to her answer ask whether
11 these policemen were in uniform or not. I mean, if that's what you want
12 to know. Don't talk about uniforms as if the witness has testified -- had
13 testified before that there were people in uniforms. I know that it's an
14 important issue for the Defence whether official people on duty are
15 wearing uniforms or not. So if you take your own point seriously, you
16 should do the same in questioning the witness. And I think the witness
17 answered your question or did not answer your question, because she said
18 that there were police people there. Yes.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, in
20 fact, the answer replied, but in French my question was very clear. It
21 was about men in uniform.
22 Q. You said that these were police officers, so there goes a
23 question. So why would you make a distinction between these police
24 officers? How could you tell that they were police officers?
25 A. I really don't know. I saw two people in front of the canteen.
1 They were in civilian clothing. And I called them to help us.
2 Q. Witness, how did you know that these people were police officers?
3 A. Because nobody else was allowed to go into that canteen except for
4 the police officers, these people were not on duty. They were standing in
5 front of the canteen. I did not ask them who they were, what they were
6 doing there. I just asked them for help. I believe that is clear.
7 Q. Were these people in front? There were two of them. Were there
8 other people there who helped you?
9 A. I do not remember seeing it.
10 Q. Witness, so according to your recollection, there were two people
11 who helped you; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. What was the distance between the canteen and the spot
14 that you were at on the photograph ending in numbers 1436?
15 A. I don't know what the distance was, but I think it can be seen on
16 the photograph. It was behind this house, while we were in the orchard.
17 And I think it can be seen on the photograph. I cannot tell you exactly,
18 because I did not measure the distance.
19 Q. What you mean to say is that the canteen can be seen on the
20 photograph? Is that so?
21 A. No. Below the house it can be seen in the background.
22 Q. So is that also along the axis of the shot?
23 A. It was below this road.
24 Q. But in relation to the path of the bullet, where were you?
25 MR. IERACE: I object to that question, Mr. President --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
2 MR. IERACE: -- in terms of clarity.
3 A. I do not understand the question.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from the objection, the witness does not
5 understand your question. Could you please rephrase it in such a way that
6 the witness does understand your question.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 Q. I will repeat it, Witness. So we will try to do it logically.
9 Could we have the photograph 1436 on the ELMO, please.
10 Witness, could you indicate for us on this photograph by
11 showing -- pointing with your finger where approximately this canteen was.
12 A. Below this house.
13 Q. Could you show it? Could you point it?
14 A. It cannot be seen. It is below.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, usher.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, clearly we will not -- thank you.
17 It's being done now.
18 A. Below this house that you can see in the background, just a little
19 below. So you cannot see it. I cannot explain it if I can't see it. I
20 think it's enough that I said where it was.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you for this answer. But Witness, the shots, could you tell
23 us on this photograph where the shots were coming from?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do apologise for interrupting my
1 friend, but I suggest that for the sake of the transcript there be some
2 description as to which house it was the witness just pointed out.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For the clarity of the transcript, I'll say
4 that the witness just pointed to the house which is seen in the middle of
5 the photo, a little bit to the right of the head of the witness as she
6 appears on the photograph. It's a house. The lower part is white, the
7 upper part is wooden, and you see a brown roof.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Witness, could you please indicate with a pointer the direction
11 from which the shots were coming from. Could you tell us just with a
12 gesture, without marking it.
13 A. The direction cannot be shown because exactly the way I am
14 standing on the photograph and watching the camera, that's where the shots
15 were coming from. So everything that you can see on the photograph is --
16 so everything is in front of me. So the shots were coming from the front,
17 from the direction where the photographer was standing.
18 Q. Thank you. Witness, therefore, if I tell you that the canteen was
19 in the path of the shots, is that correct? Do you think that's correct?
20 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: The question purports to reflect the evidence of the
23 witness so far. I don't know what word my friend used in French, but
24 "path" is clearly inconsistent with that evidence, given the position of
25 the house in relation to the canteen. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
4 say once and for all that these terms that I am using are -- usually I am
5 talking about "axe" in French, and that is a path of the bullet, and I'm
6 going to re -- I'm going to ask the question again.
7 Q. So was your --
8 JUDGE ORIE: I will not allow you to ask the question again, since
9 the objection has been sustained, and as far as I noticed your explanation
10 of the word "axe" in French, and when I hear how Mr. Ierace uses the word
11 "path," the objection is still totally valid that it does not reflect the
12 evidence in the testimony of the witness. So put whatever other question
13 you would like in order to find out precisely, but in your question there
14 was an incorrect reflection of what the testimony was about. So you may
15 not put the same question in a similar way again, but any other question.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So I'm going to ask a
17 different question, Mr. President.
18 Q. Witness, I'm sorry. So the canteen -- was the canteen -- were the
19 shots in respect of the canteen roughly on the same direction of the
21 A. The canteen was below the line of the shots, so that was below the
22 road. We were being shot at and we were on the road, and the canteen was
23 below the road. I believe that is clear.
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you an additional question, Ms. Sahic? You
25 have explained to us a few times that the canteen was below the house
1 which is at the side of the road. Could you please indicate to us, was
2 this 5 metres below, 10 metres below, 20 metres below? Could you give us
3 an indication of the difference in height between the house and the
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is about a floor lower, but they
6 were about -- next to each other.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do I understand from your answer that the
8 canteen was quite close to the house you just indicated on the
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Witness, you said yesterday that you were able to see the front
15 lines, and in particular, the Serb front lines; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Witness, could I conclude, then, in front of these blinds there
18 were front lines of the Bosnian army?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Were there no lines of the Bosnian army in front of the Serb
21 lines, of the lines of the Serb army?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So it was an unopposed front line?
24 A. There is a photograph where I can tell you exactly where the shots
25 came from and what that place was called, and I can show you exactly in
1 order to clarify my answer.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did not get
3 an answer, I believe.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Sahic, Mr. Piletta-Zanin was asking you whether
5 there were any front lines opposing the Serbian front lines, so front
6 lines from the Bosnia-Herzegovinian army, opposed to the front lines of
7 the Serb army. Do you understand the question?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do understand the question,
9 but these lines, these positions, could not be seen from the spot where
10 I'm saying that the Serb lines could be seen.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the first question was whether there was
12 such an opposed line opposed to the Serbian army at the
13 Bosnia-Herzegovinian side, whether you could see it or not at that time is
14 a different issue, but are you aware of a front line of the
15 Bosnia-Herzegovinian army opposing the front line of the Serbian army?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Witness, you said a moment ago that there were two police officers
20 who were standing in front of the canteen, and these policemen did not --
21 they did not wear any specific insignia.
22 A. No.
23 Q. They were in civilian clothing?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. These policemen who were in civilian clothing, did they have a
1 belt for side arms?
2 A. I did not see it.
3 Q. And you are emphatic on that point?
4 A. That's right. I did not see anything of that sort.
5 Q. Witness, did you see in that area - and I am referring to the time
6 when this gunfire happened - in 1993, did you see in that area any
7 soldiers who would be present in that area?
8 A. I could not see anything like that.
9 Q. So you saw nothing of that sort throughout the war?
10 A. Yes, I did see the military. They were all over. But at that
11 particular point in time, I did not see them.
12 Q. Witness, when you say that they were all over, could you clarify
13 what you've just said, please.
14 A. Well, it's only natural. It was wartime and you could find
15 military soldiers everywhere.
16 Q. And by this you mean in the village too?
17 A. Generally speaking, yes, everywhere. I did not count them, nor
18 did I try to establish where every one of them was. But it was wartime
19 and there was soldiers everywhere.
20 Q. Who were hiding everywhere; is that how I should interpret your
22 MR. IERACE: I object.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
24 A. I don't know what they were doing.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
1 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I object to that question. The
2 question was: Who were hiding everywhere; is that how I should interpret
3 your testimony? The question -- the evidence of the witness was not even
4 remotely to the effect that they were hiding everywhere, and I --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I withdraw this question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I noticed that during the
7 last one minute you repeatedly seemed to twist the answer of the witness
8 in order to put a quasi-logical next answer to her. For example, I'm
9 referring to the question where you said that: You're referring to the
10 time when this gunfire happened, did you see in that area any soldiers?
11 The answer was: I could not see anything like that. And then your next
12 question was: "So you saw nothing of that sort throughout the war?" I
13 find it unacceptable that while you question the witness, you point at a
14 certain period of time. And if the witness answered that question in
15 relation to that specifically asked period of time, that in your next
16 question you say, "So you were not seeing," and then referring to the
17 whole wartime. This is not leading; this is misleading. And I will not
18 accept that any more. I hope I'm quite clear to you. I'll give you full
19 opportunity to cross-examine the witness. I'll not give you an
20 opportunity to create confusion where there's no reason for that. And you
21 might have noticed that if confusion is the result of your line -- of your
22 way of questioning, that I will take over, which of course might lose --
23 might create some loss of effectivity of your cross-examination, but it's
24 in your own hands. As the Rules say, the mode of questioning is
25 controlled by the Chamber. I hope that I'm clear enough,
1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Please proceed.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise,
3 but if my questions were interpreted in that manner, that was not my
4 intention. But I will -- but I will take care. Thank you very much,
5 Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that completely different issue, we have
9 some arrangements as far as time is concerned. I would like to remind you
10 of that as well.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness, another question: You told us that with your sister, you
13 lived in that house for the duration of the war; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Very well. And in comparison with the whole period of the war
16 that you speak about, if I may ask you that, there were quite a number of
17 military in that area, weren't there?
18 A. Not only there. There were military, there were soldiers
20 Q. Thank you. So at some point -- or rather, you saw those troops.
21 What kind of weapons would they be carrying when you saw them?
22 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you, really, what kind of -- what did
23 they carry, what did they do, where did they go.
24 Q. Last question: To your knowledge, and covering the whole period
25 that we're talking about, did it ever happen that those troops used this
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 canteen which you pointed at and told us that it was below the house which
2 can be seen in the photograph?
3 A. No. I said that it was a police canteen, not an army canteen.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
5 Mr. President. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 Is there any need for re-examination of the witness on the
8 Prosecution side?
9 MR. IERACE: Just in relation to one issue, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
11 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
12 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:
13 Q. You were asked a number of questions about the age of Vildana
14 Kapur. For what period of time had you known her when this occurred, when
15 the shooting occurred?
16 A. Not very long. Two, three years maybe. I didn't know her. I
17 hadn't known her before that too long.
18 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
20 Any questions from my colleagues?
21 Ms. Sahic, since the Bench has no questions to you, as you might
22 have noticed, we did put some questions to you during the examination by
23 the parties- this ends your examination as a witness. We know that it's
24 a far way to come to The Hague, and I'm sure you understand that the
25 information witnesses give to this Court are of great importance for the
1 decisions we'll have to take. We thank you for coming this far way to The
2 Hague, and I wish you a good journey home. Thank you very much.
3 Mr. Usher, would you please lead Ms. Sahic out of the courtroom.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This brings us to the technical issues. What
6 we have to be tendered into evidence is we have the 360-degree
7 photographs, two of them, under one exhibit number; one photo with the
8 centre of the road, the other one with the centre in the orchard, and that
9 would be 3279A, if I'm correct, Madam Registrar. I'm making a mistake, as
10 far as I -- could you please -- the 360-degree photograph from two
11 different --
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Am I correct in understanding, Mr. Ierace, that
14 3279A, which is 360-degree quick-time movie showing sniping incidents
15 contains all of the 360 -- yes, I do see that it's the same number. This
16 would also mean that since the CD has admitted -- has been admitted into
17 evidence, of course this would only be done in as far as it has been
18 shown. So although we do not need a specific decision on that, I'll
19 indicate at the end of each testimony that this part of the CD-ROM is part
20 of the evidence admitted, since of course there must be a fair opportunity
21 for the Defence to object against any part of this CD-ROM. So as far as
22 3279A relates to the testimony of Witness Sahic and contains a 360-degree
23 picture of the specific spot where that incident she testified about
24 happened, it's part of the admitted evidence.
25 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The CD contains four 360-degree
1 photographs. That's the photograph for Incident 4, the photograph for
2 Incident 14, and two photographs for this incident, which is number 9. And
3 might I respectfully suggest that referring to the tracks by the scheduled
4 incident number might be an appropriate way to do it when we move on to
5 other scheduled sniping incident evidence, there will be different CDs.
6 Excuse me, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear to me.
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: So that's part of the admitted evidence by now. And
10 we also have P3279C, which is a set of two photos with both first part of
11 the numbers 0215, the second part of one photo -- of the number of one
12 photo is 1436 and the other one is 1439. That's, then, admitted into
13 evidence as well.
14 I think, Madam Registrar, that's all we had as exhibits at this
16 Then I think the Prosecution could call its next witness.
17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The next witness will be taken
18 by Daryl Mundis, and pursuant to what I said earlier, would you,
19 Mr. President, and Your Honours, excuse me. I will probably re-attend the
20 Trial Chamber shortly after the end of the next break.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
24 Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the witness.
25 Mr. Mundis, it will be --
1 MR. MUNDIS: Sabri Halili, Your Honour
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 MR. MUNDIS: For the benefit of the Trial Chamber and the Defence,
4 this witness will be testifying with respect to scheduled sniping incident
5 number 5.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Halili, can you hear me in a language which you
8 can understand?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to
11 make a solemn declaration at the beginning of your testimony. The text of
12 this declaration will be given to you by the usher. Would you please make
13 that declaration.
14 WITNESS: SABRI HALILI
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Halili. Please be seated.
19 You will first be examined by Mr. Mundis of the Prosecution.
20 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour. If I could just ask the
22 usher when he's finished getting the water, if he could move the ELMO back
23 slightly so I can see the witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Of course..
25 Examined by Mr. Mundis:
1 Q. Mr. Halili, for the record could you please state your full name
2 and spell your last name please.
3 A. Sabri, S-a-b-r-i, and my last name, Halili, H-a-l-i-l-i.
4 Q. Mr. Halili, could you please provide your date of birth and the
5 place where you were born, please.
6 A. The 13th of April, 1957, Vucitrn, in Kosevo.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Halili. During the war that broke out in Bosnia,
8 can you tell us, please, not your street address but the city where you
9 were living when the war broke out in Bosnia.
10 A. In Sarajevo.
11 Q. And throughout the duration of the war, did you continue to live
12 in Sarajevo?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what was your occupation when the war broke out in Bosnia?
15 A. A member of the army.
16 Q. And sir, did you remain a member of the army throughout the war?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. And sir, in which army were you a soldier?
19 A. The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 Q. During the course of the war, can you tell the Trial Chamber
21 whether or not you were married?
22 A. I got married in 1992, in July.
23 Q. And sir, did you, during the duration of the war, live with your
24 wife in Sarajevo?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Did anyone else live with you and your wife during the course of
2 the war in Bosnia?
3 A. Until 1993, that is, until the 27th of June, my mother-in-law
4 lived with us.
5 Q. And sir, what was your mother-in-law's name?
6 A. Almasa.
7 Q. And her family name?
8 A. Konjhodzic.
9 Q. Sir, can you describe for the Trial Chamber what happened on 27
10 June 1993?
11 A. Between half past 8.00 and 9.00 in the morning, we set off for the
12 post office, to my mother-in-law. Because when the war broke out in
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, she moved to sleep in the post office building --
14 Q. Let me interrupt you.
15 A. -- because of the dangers.
16 Q. First of all, when you say "we set off," can you please tell the
17 Trial Chamber whom you referred to when you said "we."
18 A. I and my wife.
19 Q. And your wife's name?
20 A. Milada.
21 Q. And sir, you've testified that your mother-in-law moved to sleep
22 in the post office building. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where your
23 mother-in-law was working when the war broke out?
24 A. In the post office.
25 Q. And can you tell us why precisely she decided to move in to the
1 post office, to sleep in the post office?
2 A. Because of the danger.
3 Q. Okay, sir. You've testified that between half past 8.00 and 9.00
4 in the morning you set off with your wife to the post office. Can you
5 tell the Trial Chamber why you went with your wife to the post office on
6 that morning, please.
7 A. We went to the post office building because the daughter-in-law of
8 my late mother-in-law was also killed in the war, or rather, the brother's
9 wife. So the sister-in-law of my mother-in-law was killed, about a year
10 earlier, and it was a year, so it was the anniversary of her death, and
11 she decided to go and be with her brother on that particular day.
12 Q. Let me see if I understand you correct, sir. Your mother-in-law
13 had a brother; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that brother's wife had been killed in the early stages of the
16 war; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And on this occasion, on 27 June 1993, when you and your wife went
19 to collect your mother-in-law, that was the first anniversary of the death
20 of your mother-in-law's brother's wife?
21 A. Well, you could say so.
22 Q. Approximately how long did it take you and your wife on that
23 morning to walk from your apartment to the PTT building?
24 A. Some ten minutes.
25 Q. And approximately how far is it from the PTT building to the house
1 of your mother-in-law's brother, where you were going that day? How far
2 is that distance?
3 A. Well, the route that we took, it's about eight kilometres, because
4 we practically went all around the town.
5 Q. What would be the most efficient way or the most efficient
6 distance? You say you had to go around. What would be the straightest
7 distance between those two buildings?
8 A. Three kilometres.
9 Q. Sir, what was the reason why you had to take a longer and more
10 circuitous route to get to your mother-in-law's brother's house?
11 A. We could not take a shorter route because of the snipers and
12 barricades on the road.
13 Q. Were you aware at that time, on that day, that there were snipers
14 in the city of Sarajevo?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Sir, how did you know that?
17 A. Well, it was common knowledge. The whole city knew it and the
18 media spoke about it.
19 Q. Sir, the areas that you were walking through, that is, the area
20 from the PTT building to the mother-in-law's brother's house, which
21 military force controlled the area that you were walking through?
22 A. The BH army.
23 Q. Sir, on the day in question, approximately how long did it take
24 you to walk the eight kilometres to your mother-in-law's brother's house?
25 A. About an hour and a half.
1 Q. Approximately what time did you arrive at the mother-in-law's
2 brother's house?
3 A. Half past 10.00.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. This might be an
5 appropriate place to take our break.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can imagine that you'd rather not enter into
7 a new subject.
8 Mr. Halili, you've been here only very short until now. We'll
9 have a break and then we'll continue after the break. Yes.
10 We'll then adjourn until 11.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, please proceed with the examination of
14 the witness.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Mr. Halili, when we took the recess, I believe you had just
17 testified that the three of you, that is, your wife, your mother-in-law,
18 and yourself, had arrived at her brother's house at approximately half
19 past 10.00; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And approximately how long did the three of you remain at your
22 mother-in-law's brother's house?
23 A. Close to 12.00.
24 Q. That is, you departed close to 12.00; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So you were there approximately one hour and 30 minutes; is that
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And during that one hour and 30 minutes that you were there, what
5 did you do?
6 A. We sat down, had a cup of coffee, talked. Yes, we also had lunch
7 there, yes.
8 Q. And then at approximately 12.00 noon on the 27th of June, 1993,
9 the three of you - that is, yourself, your wife, and your mother-in-law -
10 departed that house; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What location was your intended destination when you departed?
13 A. We wanted to go back home.
14 Q. Was your mother-in-law intending to go back to the home you shared
15 as well or was she going to go back to the PTT building where she had been
17 A. To the PTT building.
18 Q. Would it be fair to say, then, that your wife and you were
19 escorting your mother-in-law back to the PTT building and then you and
20 your wife would return to your home?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. When you departed, you've testified earlier about taking a
23 circuitous route to get to the brother's house. Did you again take a
24 circuitous route back to the PTT building or a direct route back to the
25 PTT building?
1 A. We went the same way back, that is, the circuitous route.
2 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber what happened during
3 the time you were escorting your mother-in-law back to the PTT building.
4 A. Yes, I can. After we left her brother's house and reached the
5 vicinity of the Marsal Tito barracks, a bullet was shot at that moment.
6 It went through the air, and my mother-in-law was very frightened. She
7 was all of a sudden off balance and she lost one shoe. She tripped. And
8 I told her not to be afraid, because I thought that we were not being
9 targeted; it was -- the bullet was flying much too high. I helped her get
10 up, and she put on her shoe and we continued. But we walked only for
11 about ten metres when a second bullet was shot, and that bullet shot her.
12 Q. Witness, when you say "that bullet shot her," can you tell us what
13 that bullet hit or impacted?
14 A. It hit her. It cut her artery. That's what the doctors said.
15 Q. When your mother-in-law was struck by this bullet, did you see any
16 physical indications of where on your body she was struck by the bullet?
17 A. Well, I didn't see her. At that moment I turned around, and when
18 I turned back I saw that there was a pool of blood underneath her.
19 Q. Witness, I'd like now, if you can, to the best of your
20 recollection, to describe in --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the record, Mr. President,
23 for the transcript, that is, I think that line 14, page 37, that there is
24 a mistake, that there is an error in the words uttered by my learned
25 colleague. I don't think I heard "your body," but everything is possible,
1 of course.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I believe I said her body.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Her body, yes. It's clear that you intended to say
4 her body. Thank you for your assistance, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. It's a
6 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: It must have been a mistake. Thank you. Please
8 proceed, Mr. Mundis.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Mr. Halili, if you can, please, to the best of your recollection,
11 I would like you to describe exactly what happened when you arrived at the
12 corner. You can begin by indicating to the best of your recollection the
13 intersection where you were when this incident occurred.
14 A. Yes. I think I can remember. Are you referring to the first
15 bullet that was fired or the second one? I didn't understand what you
16 meant, which one you meant.
17 Q. Let's begin with the first bullet. Do you recall approximately
18 what intersection or what street you were on or the buildings that were
19 nearby? Can you describe where physically you were when you heard the
20 first bullet fired?
21 A. Yes, I can. Right at the beginning of the intersection, near the
22 traffic lights.
23 Q. Do you know the name of the street or the cross street where you
24 were when you heard that shot fired?
25 A. I believe the name of the street is Kranjcevica.
1 Q. Do you recall any of the buildings or other landmarks that were at
2 that location when you heard the first shot fired?
3 A. Yes, I do. There were some containers there that had been put up
4 as a shelter, as a protection. There was a building on one side, and on
5 the other side was the Marsal Tito barracks. Opposite from the Marsal
6 Tito barracks there were some regular, ordinary buildings.
7 Q. Witness, do you recall in September of 2001 providing a statement
8 to an investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor at the Tribunal?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you recall during the course of that interview if the
11 investigator asked you to mark a diagram of where you were when these
12 shots were fired?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that Exhibit P3262 be
15 shown to the witness, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Usher.
17 MR. MUNDIS:
18 Q. Mr. Halili, I would ask you to look at the lower right-hand corner
19 of the document that's been placed on the ELMO next to you and indicate
20 whether or not that is your signature.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The diagram in front of you has markings both in blue ink and in
23 black ink. Did you place all of the markings on this document or only the
24 blue markings, or only the black markings?
25 A. The picture is not very clear, but I can see both colours, and as
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 far as I can see, there's no difference. But I don't think I can explain
2 what exactly it was that I marked here.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You also can look at the original, which is at the
4 right-hand side of you on this machine. So if that's clearer to you,
5 especially as far as the colours are concerned.
6 A. Oh, yes. I can see now. Now it's clear.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
8 MR. MUNDIS:
9 Q. Again, Mr. Halili, can you please look at the map on the ELMO
10 machine to your right and tell the Trial Chamber the colour of the
11 markings that you personally made on the document in front of you.
12 A. The black ones.
13 Q. Is it correct to state that the investigator who interviewed you
14 on that day made the markings that are in blue?
15 A. It's possible, yes. I only marked, actually drew the container
16 and the crosses, and also the arrows, number 1, 2, and 3.
17 Q. That is, the markings on this document that are in black ink, you
18 made those; is that correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Does this document, P3262, illustrate to the best of your
21 recollection the intersection as it was on 27 June 1993 when you and your
22 wife and mother-in-law were at this intersection?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Witness, if you would, please look at the three Xs next to the
25 arrow on the upper right portion of the diagram that are marked in black.
1 Do you see those three Xs next to the arrow?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what those three Xs next to the
4 arrow represent?
5 A. The three of us and the location where we were.
6 Q. And what does the arrow represent?
7 A. The direction we were walking.
8 Q. And approximately where on this diagram were the three of you
9 standing or moving when you heard the first shot fired?
10 A. We were standing where the arrow is, that is, slightly behind the
11 arrow and the three Xs.
12 Q. Now, Witness, there are several rectangle and square-shaped
13 objects that you marked in black on the diagram with the word "prikolica"
14 next to them. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what those drawings
16 A. These rectangles represent the containers, and the word
17 "prikolica" means a trailer. That is where the trailer was. It was
18 slightly higher than the containers and it was a metre and a half up above
19 the ground.
20 Q. Let's start, please, with the containers. Can you describe for
21 the Trial Chamber what type of containers these were?
22 A. The normal metal containers.
23 Q. Are these the type of containers that are routinely used in
24 shipping, for example, on ships and on trucks that travel on the highways?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know the approximate size, that would be the length,
2 height, and width of these containers?
3 A. They were two metres or slightly over two metres high,
5 Q. And approximately how long was each container?
6 A. I would say three to four -- two, three, four, thereabouts.
7 Q. And you've testified that approximately in the middle, based on
8 the diagram, approximately in the middle of this row of containers there
9 was a trailer. Can you describe that in a little more detail, please.
10 A. Yes, I can. The trailer was slightly higher than the containers
11 and it was above the ground.
12 Q. That is to say from the bottom of the trailer to the ground, there
13 was a space?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, Witness, there are also three circles in black ink on P3262
16 with numbers inside the circles. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber
17 what those circles and corresponding numbers relate to shall please.
18 A. The circle number 1 indicates the spot where my late mother-in-law
19 was standing; number 2 is me. That's where I was. And number 3, my wife.
20 Q. And these would be the locations where the three of you were
21 standing when your mother-in-law was shot?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber how it is that your
24 wife, indicated by the circle with the number "3" in it, was ahead of your
25 mother-in-law and yourself.
1 A. When the first bullet was fired, she ran. She was ahead of us.
2 She had already crossed the intersection and she was waiting for us at the
3 spot indicated with number 3." She was at that moment facing us, looking
4 at us.
5 Q. Based again on the two circles with the numbers "1" and "2" inside
6 of them, what was your location? How close to your mother-in-law were you
7 when she was shot?
8 A. Approximately half a metre, not more than that. Half a metre.
9 I'm sorry. I cannot remember exactly, but half a metre.
10 Q. During the time when you and your mother-in-law were crossing this
11 street, did you have any type of physical contact with her as you were
12 crossing the street?
13 A. I'm sorry. I don't understand what you mean by "physical
15 Q. Were you touching your mother-in-law as the two of you crossed the
17 A. Well, for as long as we were walking towards the spot that is
18 indicated here, she was holding me by my arm, but then she moved away.
19 Q. And approximately what was the distance, if you recall, between
20 your mother-in-law and the containers or the trailer as you walked across
21 the street?
22 A. One metre, one metre and a half maximum. Not more than that.
23 Q. Witness, do you have any knowledge or any idea where -- from which
24 direction the bullet came which struck your mother-in-law?
25 A. From our left.
1 Q. That would be again looking at P3262, on the opposite side of the
2 containers and trailer, as depicted on that diagram?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, we have again, as with the other
5 witnesses, prepared a video and 360-degree scene, and I would ask that the
6 video be shown to the witness at this time.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MR. MUNDIS: For the record, that video is P3280C.
9 [Videotape played]
10 INVESTIGATOR: Would you please stand at the spot where you
11 remember, to the best of your ability, the first anti-sniping barricade
13 MR. HALILI: [Indicates]
14 INVESTIGATOR: I will now mark this location using yellow spray
16 Mr. Halili, would you please indicate by pointing the direction in
17 which you and your family were walking that day.
18 MR. HALILI: [Indicates]
19 INVESTIGATOR: Will you please stand in the location, the spot,
20 where you remember, to the best of your recollection that your
21 mother-in-law was shot.
22 MR. HALILI: [Indicates]
23 INVESTIGATOR: I will now mark this location with "X" with yellow
24 spray paint.
25 Would you now please stand in the spot where you were standing
1 when your mother-in-law was shot
2 MR. HALILI: [Indicates]
3 INVESTIGATOR: I will now mark this with an "X" with the number
4 "1" beside it.
5 Will you now please stand in the spot where you remember the
6 barricade that consisted of a trailer, where it started.
7 MR. HALILI: [Indicates]
8 INVESTIGATOR: I see you indicating two spots. Could you stand in
9 the first spot and then we will mark the second spot as well .
10 MR. HALILI: [Indicates]
11 INVESTIGATOR: I will mark this with a line and the number "2"
12 beside it.
13 And the next spot where did the others -- indicate.
14 MR. HALILI: [Indicates]
15 INVESTIGATOR: I will mark this with a line with the number "3"
16 beside it.
17 Now we'll make our way back to the curb.
18 One more -- one more question, please, Mr. Halili. Can you please
19 indicate from which direction you heard the shot coming at the time your
20 mother-in-law was shot.
21 MR. HALILI: [Indicates]
22 MR. MUNDIS:
23 Q. Mr. Halili, do you recall the events on the day that were
24 videotaped on the tape that you were just shown?
25 A. Yes. I remember. I believe it was in November.
1 Q. And did you recognise yourself in that videotape?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And to the best of your recollection, was the information that you
4 provided to the investigator correct and accurate?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask at this time, Your Honour, that the witness
7 be shown what's been marked as P3271, two photographs. I would ask that
8 the first of those photographs, which bears ERN number 02114265 be placed
9 on the ELMO next to the witness, please.
10 Q. Mr. Halili, again, during the course of one of the interviews by
11 an investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor, were you shown this
12 photograph? It's on the machine to your right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you make any markings on that photograph with a red pen?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what those red markings indicate?
17 A. It's the intersection where my mother-in-law was shot.
18 Q. Yes. And the red --
19 A. And the containers.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, in the lower left-hand corner of P3271
21 there are what appears to be two roofs, tiled roofs. Do you see those two
23 A. Yes, I can see them.
24 Q. If you know what those building or buildings are, can you please
25 tell the Trial Chamber.
1 A. These are the buildings -- you mean houses, these family, private
3 Q. I'm talking about the roofs in the lower left-hand corner of the
4 picture, if you know what building or buildings that is, if you could
5 please identify that for the Trial Chamber.
6 A. The houses where --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter did not hear the witness's last few
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer, Mr. Halili,
10 because the interpreters could not clearly hear you. Perhaps you could
11 adjust the microphone so that -- Mr. Usher, if you could assist Mr. Halili
12 so that it's ...
13 Please could you then repeat your last answer. The question was
14 about whether you could identify the houses in the lower left corner of
15 the photograph. I think these are the roofs with a lot of small chimneys
16 on it, two red roofs.
17 A. These are houses that were near the intersection.
18 MR. MUNDIS:
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Halili?
20 MR. MUNDIS: I would now ask that the witness be shown the second
21 photograph that is part of P3271, the photograph bearing ERN number
23 Q. Again, Mr. Halili, when you were interviewed by the investigator
24 from the --
25 THE REGISTRAR: I have ERN 02114267 as the second photograph.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We see, as a matter of fact, that there are two
2 different numbers on it. There's a red number which is stricken out, as
3 far as I can see, and we have a black number on the top and just the last
4 digit of the stricken out right number is 7 and the black on the top
5 indicates that the last digit is 6.
6 MR. MUNDIS: That's correct, Mr. President. I was referring to
7 the black number at the top of the photograph.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask the Prosecution to -- not to put too
9 many numbers of photographs which might be confusing now and then.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President.
11 Q. Witness, during the time that you met with the investigator in
12 2001, did you also view this photograph which is now to your right on the
13 ELMO machine?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you make any markings on this photograph with a red pen?
16 A. Yes, I did. I put a circle around the -- around the skyscraper.
17 Q. And why did you put a circle around the skyscraper?
18 A. That was the direction where the bullet had come from, from that
20 Q. Now, Witness, in the lower right-hand portion of this photograph,
21 there appear to be one or perhaps two buildings in the bottom right-hand
22 side of the photograph. Do you know what that building or buildings are?
23 A. The barracks, former barracks.
24 Q. That would be the Marsal Tito barracks; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, Witness, do you happen to know where the confrontation lines
2 were between the army of the BH and the VRS on the 27th of June, 1993?
3 A. Yes, I do know. The Miljacka River was a line of separation.
4 Q. And at the time when your mother-in-law was shot, on which side of
5 that line were the three of you located?
6 A. On the side of the BH army, on our territory. On the territory
7 under the control of the BH army.
8 Q. And the white skyscraper that's been circled in photograph 4266,
9 on which side of the confrontation line was that building located?
10 A. On the other side of the Miljacka River.
11 Q. Is it possible to indicate on this photograph approximately where
12 the Miljacka River is located?
13 A. Well, possibly about 10, 15 metres from the skyscraper. There's
14 a promenade which is between the river and the skyscraper
15 Q. In the middle of the photograph, towards the bottom, there are
16 what appear to be some trees. Do you see those trees?
17 A. Yes, I can see them.
18 Q. Are these trees located near the Miljacka River?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Witness, let me return to the immediate moments after your
21 mother-in-law was shot. Do you recall what happened once you saw the
22 blood, the pool of blood that you indicated was next to her?
23 A. Yes, I remember. At that moment I went to her. I took her under
24 her arms and I pulled her behind this wheel of that trailer that was
25 standing there so that we could take cover, both of us, from the bullets.
1 Because I presume there could be more coming, so that they wouldn't hit
3 Q. Approximately how long did you remain behind the wheel of that
5 A. A few seconds, because at that moment a white vehicle arrived.
6 And when they saw that a woman was shot, they let us put her in the
7 vehicle. So -- and then another vehicle arrived, another Golf vehicle
8 arrived, and then we took her to the hospital.
9 Q. What type of vehicle was the first vehicle? You said a white
10 vehicle. What type of vehicle was that?
11 A. It was a Golf.
12 Q. And who got into that vehicle?
13 A. My wife, my mother-in-law, and there was a driver. And as far as
14 I can remember, there was a co-driver in the vehicle as well. There were
15 two of them.
16 Q. And then you've testified a second Golf arrived. Who got into
17 that vehicle?
18 A. I went in and I asked the young man -- in fact, he offered himself
19 to take me to the hospital so that I could see what happened.
20 Q. And did you in fact go to a hospital?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. Which hospital did you go to that day?
23 A. Military hospital.
24 Q. Did you have any discussions with any medical personnel at the
25 hospital that day in relation to your mother-in-law?
1 A. At that moment when I entered the hospital, at the entrance to the
2 hospital I saw that there was a cable, and my mother-in-law was lying
3 there and they had cut her dress. And they asked me, "What are you doing
4 there?" So I said that I was a son, but they threw me out. And I saw
5 that my mother-in-law was covered in blood.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'm not quite sure from the
7 transcript. It indicates "a cable".
8 Q. Mr. Halili, when you arrived at the hospital, you indicated -- you
9 testified that your mother-in-law was lying there. Upon what was your
10 mother-in-law lying?
11 A. In an operating theatre, on a bed.
12 Q. Thank you. Did the doctors -- or did a doctor or doctors later
13 indicate to you what had happened to your mother-in-law?
14 A. Yes. A doctor came and said -- he offered his condolences and
15 said that he was sorry, but that she was dead.
16 Q. Did the doctor indicate to you what the cause of death was?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What did the doctor tell you?
19 A. He said that she had been shot with a defragmentation bullet, and
20 he showed the bullet and said that had killed her.
21 Q. Mr. Halili, do you recall what type of clothing you were wearing
22 on the day your mother-in-law was shot?
23 A. Yes, I remember. I had black trousers and a black shirt with
24 white stripes.
25 Q. Was this black trousers and black shirt with white stripes part of
1 a military uniform?
2 A. No. This was my own clothes, my civilian clothes.
3 Q. And on this day when your mother-in-law was shot, were you
4 carrying any kind of weapon?
5 A. No, I did not, because there were not enough weapons to go around,
6 not even for standing guard.
7 Q. And at the time when the shot was fired that struck your
8 mother-in-law, did you see any soldiers in the immediate vicinity?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. Did you see any military equipment of any kind in the immediate
11 vicinity at the time your mother-in-law was shot?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you recall what type of clothing your mother-in-law was wearing
14 the day she was shot?
15 A. She had a red dress on, and it had a print of a tiger on the
16 front. And she was wearing a large woman's belt around her waist.
17 Q. Do you recall what type of clothing your wife was wearing on that
19 A. I do not recall.
20 Q. Do you recall the approximate age of your mother-in-law at the
21 time she was shot?
22 A. 55.
23 Q. To the best of your knowledge, Mr. Halili, was your mother-in-law
24 in the military at the time she was shot?
25 A. No.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. To the best of your knowledge, Mr. Halili, was your mother-in-law
2 ever in the military during the course of her life?
3 A. Never.
4 Q. Finally, I would like to show the witness the 360-degree panorama
5 photo, which is also contained on P3279A.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. MUNDIS:
8 Q. Mr. Halili, do you recognise the image that's on the screen in
9 front of you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what this image depicts.
12 A. You can see the barracks.
13 Q. Would this be the Marsal Tito barracks?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the photo be slowly panned to the
16 left, please. Pause, please.
17 Q. Mr. Halili, does this view indicate the intersection where your
18 mother-in-law was shot?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask if the photo could be slightly tilted
21 downwards. Thank you. And if it can then be zoomed in, please.
22 Further. Further. All the way.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think that there might be a technical problem at
24 this moment. Could we just wait, because it was not ordinary zooming in,
25 as far as I noticed.
1 MR. MUNDIS: No, it was not.
2 JUDGE ORIE: As Mr. Piletta-Zanin also noticed.
3 MR. MUNDIS: I think it was obvious to us all, Mr. President.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll get a message when the problem is solved. How
6 much time it will take is not clear to me, but I see that we've now
7 different pictures, at least my left neighbour has a different picture on
8 the screen.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Unfortunately, Mr. President, I'm in my final few
10 questions and I think they're going to require the use of that exhibit.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then we'll have to wait for a second, unless
12 it would take really a considerable period of time. Then I would suggest
13 that we -- Madam Registrar. It's on the screen, yes.
14 So could you please proceed.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. If the technician could
16 please pan the photo slightly to the right. Stop, please. Slightly
17 down. Stop, please. And slightly zoom in, please. That's fine. Thank
19 Q. Mr. Halili, can you see in the centre of the video that is now
20 before you a white skyscraper?
21 A. Yes, I can see it.
22 Q. Is that the same building that you circled on P3271, the second
23 page, marked 4266?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. MUNDIS: If the photo can please be zoomed back and panned to
1 the left. Please stop.
2 Q. Mr. Halili, do you see a police vehicle in the centre of the photo
3 or the video that's on the screen in front of you?
4 A. Yes, I can see it.
5 Q. Is that police vehicle in the approximate location where the three
6 of you were standing when you heard the first gunshot?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please continue panning to the left. Stop,
10 Q. The street that is immediately in the centre of the photograph,
11 which extends into the distance, that is would be towards the rear of the
12 photograph, do you see that street?
13 A. Yes, I can see it.
14 Q. Mr. Halili, was this the street that you were walking down with
15 your wife and mother-in-law prior to arriving at the intersection where
16 she was shot?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Please continue panning to the left. You can stop
19 there, please.
20 Q. Mr. Halili, does this electronic photograph correctly convey, to
21 the best of your knowledge, the intersection where your mother-in-law was
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Halili.
25 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecutor has no further questions at this time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
2 Is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?
3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Mr. President.
5 Thank you. I was just going to get organised. Perhaps we could know when
6 the next break will be.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The next break will be, as usual, at 12.30.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
10 Q. Witness, thank you for being here. I would like to go back to
11 what you have just told us. First of all, in relation to a date that was
12 mentioned by the Prosecution, which is the 27th of June, 1993, you confirm
13 this date, do you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness. I heard the Prosecution ask you a question in
16 respect of military equipment. In this area, and on that day, could you
17 confirm what I don't believe I heard, that there was no combat ongoing on
18 that day and in that area.
19 A. No, there weren't.
20 Q. You told us, sir, and we saw it on the computer electronically,
21 although there were certain problems, that the intersection was close to
22 the barracks, to the Marsal Tito barracks; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it true -- just to check it. Is it correct to say that you
25 were an army man?
1 A. Yes, I was. That is correct.
2 Q. Sir, at the time when the incident that we are talking about
3 happened, were you a soldier still?
4 A. Yes, but I was having a day off, because how we worked was to
5 stand guard for 48 hours and then be free for 48 hours, and that was one
6 of my days off.
7 Q. But you were nevertheless a member of the army, weren't you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you for that answer. You mentioned a moment ago, clearly,
10 that shots were fired.
11 A. I said two shots.
12 Q. That's right. Thank you.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a
14 technical problem. I'd like to show the witness a document which is in
15 English. So that I should also like to give it to the interpreters so
16 that they could interpret the passage I require. Do I have your leave to
17 do that?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is this a document known to the Prosecution?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As it frequently happens,
20 Mr. President, it is a document which was supplied by the Prosecution.
21 The number is --
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Yes, the number
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] ERN 0093254. So 3254.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please provide the interpretation booth
1 with a copy as well, and then ... Do you intend to tender this document
2 into evidence, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That would then --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We intend to tender it into
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You know, one of the arrangements is that
8 parties will prenumber --
9 THE REGISTRAR: D32.
10 JUDGE ORIE: D32.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if it would be possible for the
12 Prosecution to get a copy of this document, we would greatly appreciate
14 JUDGE ORIE: Would there be an additional copy for the
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall be happy to give the
17 Prosecution my copy. Yes, I shall be very happy to do that,
18 Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your assistance.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, now we have
21 this technical difficulty that we have to cope with, because the
22 interpreters in B/C/S will need to follow my question, because I will be
23 asking the witness to confirm what I will tell him, or evidently say that
24 that is not correct.
25 Q. Witness, to begin with --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin: If you are
2 referring -- because you gave an English text to the witness, which I
3 assume he cannot read. Do you read any English?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is what I was going to
5 ask the witness, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Witness, I don't think you can read English; however, you will
9 tell me now if I'm wrong.
10 A. I can read English.
11 Q. You do read English. Well, then I shall be very happy to -- will
12 you please take up this document which you have in front of you, please,
13 and will you please then confirm for me what it says here as for the date,
14 for the period -- which the period is under consideration, the date which
15 is two on the -- excuse me - right-hand side of the document, in the
16 penultimate box, in this square that you have before you. Which is the
18 A. 27th of June, 1993.
19 Q. Witness, is it correct that the figures 00 -- 0001, and then 2359,
20 mean that this covers the whole day, the whole of the 27th of June, that
21 is, from the first minute of that particular day to the last minute of
22 that same day?
23 A. Excuse me. Why, yes, the 27th of June.
24 Q. Witness, will you please then look at page 2 of this document?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the record, it is the same
1 document, but the end figures are 255.
2 Q. Witness, can you see item 1, that is, number 1 in brackets on this
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Can you please tell us, Witness, what does the word "EgyBat" mean?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Could it mean the acronym for the Egyptian battalion present in
8 Sarajevo at the time?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
10 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution objects, Your Honour. The witness
11 has said he doesn't know what that term means, number 1; and number 2, I'm
12 not sure if the Defence has laid a proper foundation for establishing if
13 this witness would have any particular knowledge that would be probative
14 on this point.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall be happy to help my
17 learned friends, and I'm moving directly to my next question.
18 Q. Witness, will you please -- will you please read what we see under
19 number 3 in brackets on this page 2, if you can.
20 A. I've read it.
21 Q. Yes, but will you please do that aloud.
22 A. UkrBat.
23 Q. I meant the whole sentence, Witness, please.
24 A. "UkrBat".
25 Q. Yes, I can hear that, but UkrBat is one word?
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness was concentrating to start
2 reading the rest of the line. A bit of patience might not be bad.
3 Could you please read those three lines following number 3 which
4 start with "UkrBat," at least if you're able to pronounce the English
5 words, because you told us that you could read them. Could you please try
6 to -- I'll -- if it's just a matter of reading, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since
7 the witness seems to have some difficulties, I'll read it aloud: "UkrBat
8 during the reported period the situation was relatively tense due to SA
9 fire and RT shelling in the vicinity of Tito barracks."
10 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
12 Mr. President, for your help.
13 Q. I'm speaking in principle that the abbreviation "SA" could perhaps
14 mean small arms. Could you confirm this, since you are a military man?
15 MR. MUNDIS: Objection.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
17 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, this is a United Nations document. In
18 terms of a variety of foreign militaries are represented here and there's
19 no -- there's been no showing, no foundation laid that this witness --
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall move on to another
22 Q. Very well. Witness, you have heard the interpretation of this
23 sentence. Did you understand it?
24 A. I didn't.
25 Q. Then I will once again ask for the interpreters to assist me and
1 ask you to interpret -- translate the sentence for you, because the
2 witness did not understand it.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could you
4 perhaps read it once again, possibly.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm quite willing to assist. Do I understand
6 well that at the earlier occasion where I read it, it has understandably
7 and for a good purpose not been translated, since I was quoting the
8 original? So if that is now true, would you now translate it into B/C/S.
9 It reads, "UkrBat, during the reported period the situation was relatively
10 tense due to SA fire and RT shelling in the vicinity of Tito barracks."
11 It has been translated to you, Mr. Halili?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it has, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Witness, and it is merely for the record, can you confirm that
16 this is a document which originated with the UNPROFOR?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Mundis.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Your Honour. Again, there's no proper
19 foundation for this question.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ask a different -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is
21 there any difference in view between the parties whether this is a UN
22 document or not? If you could compromise on the UN source, which it seems
23 to me that you take the position that this might be a UN document. If
24 there's no defensive view, we could just establish that the parties agree
25 upon the source of this document. And looking to you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
1 is that what you want to establish as the first part of your ... I mean,
2 I'm not going into the content, just about the source.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Okay. [Interpretation] Shall I answer now?
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm trying to find out if there's any dispute about
5 the source of this document.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there are
7 objections, but there is no dispute.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since I'm at this moment
9 interfering, I just want to know the relevance of the questioning and the
10 relevance of the questioning totally depends on whether there's any
11 dispute on the source of this document. Your questioning gave me the
12 impression that you're seeking to establish that it was a UN document. If
13 that's not true, please tell me.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my objective
15 was to establish what exactly do we have here coming from the United
16 Nations --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the first question was the source of the
18 document. I'm not going to have a conference over --
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- of the document. This
20 document was disclosed by the Prosecution and the source of the
21 document --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking the Defence, and for the first time I ask
23 you to say yes or no: Do you seek to establish that this is a UN
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute as far as the source of the
2 document is concerned?
3 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed. This is
5 according to the compromise of the parties a UN document. Please proceed.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
7 Q. Witness, before I was interrupted, I was about to ask you the
8 following, and I return again to the document which came from the United
9 Nations UNPROFOR. Have you now understood the sentence which was
10 interpreted for you by the interpretation service of the Tribunal?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Mundis.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Again an objection, Your Honour. The Defence has not
13 raised or set forth a proper foundation whether this witness has even seen
14 an UNPROFOR sitrep before, nor whether he has any type of expertise to
15 testify about the terminology used in this document.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you, before putting this question to the
17 witness, please establish, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the basis for any assumption
18 that this witness could interpret UN documents.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was not
20 asking for an interpretation of the document. All I asked was that the
21 witness, who said that he could read English, but obviously with
22 difficulty. He said that at first he couldn't understand the
23 interpretation. My simple question was: Did he understand, if he grasped
24 the meaning of the sentence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I don't have to explain to
1 you that reading a legal book or a book on chemistry, although you
2 understand perhaps all the words, might give a difference in
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. That is why I
5 asked that question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I continue?
8 Q. Witness, in this sentence, which you have understood perfectly, we
9 read, in English, that the situation [inaudible].
10 So my question is: A moment ago you -- at the vicinity of the
11 Marsal Tito barracks, you heard only two bullets, two shots fired. Will
12 you please confirm your earlier statement.
13 A. Yes, I am confirming it.
14 Q. Witness, to move on with -- "came from the United Nations, I see
15 that there was shelling, that is, artillery shelling in that area." Is it
16 that you never heard any shelling in that area on that day?
17 A. As far as I can remember, there was no shelling that day. There
18 was a truce that day, a cease-fire.
19 Q. Thank you, Witness, for your answer. I'd like to go back to the
20 Tito barracks, which we can see on this photograph. Witness, do you know
21 if in the Tito barracks that you mentioned there were also Bosniak troops?
22 A. As far as I can remember, there were UNPROFOR troops and the BH
23 army troops.
24 Q. Witness, you just mentioned the BH army. Do you know if in that
25 army there were some sniper units too?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Well, I don't think so, because UNPROFOR was there. UNPROFOR
2 controlled a larger part of the barracks.
3 Q. Witness, the question that I asked you dealt with the BH army, as
4 you said, not necessarily they saw that unit. My question was of a
5 general nature.
6 A. And I answered you to the best of my knowledge. What I knew, I
7 told you. I never set my foot in these barracks to know how many troops
8 there were, but what I do know for certain is that the UNPROFOR was in
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Halili, I think there's some misunderstanding in
11 questioning and giving your answer. The question was whether in the BiH
12 army, in general, so not just that part of the army that was in the Tito
13 barracks at that time, but generally in the area, in the city, wherever
14 the BiH army was, whether there were any sniper units as a part of this
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, as far as I know.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So, Witness, you never saw weapons in your army, that is, the BH
20 army, which could be used as sniping weapons?
21 A. No, I did not.
22 Q. Witness, are you aware of a factory which was in Sarajevo and
23 which was making optical devices? And if you are aware of that, what was
24 it called?
25 A. Believe me, I do not know.
1 Q. But I do believe you. And Witness, the name of that factory,
2 Zrak, tells you nothing, rings no bells?
3 A. Now that you said it, yes, I've heard about this factory, but what
4 it made, I don't remember. I simply -- I don't know that. Because I came
5 to Sarajevo on the eve of the war, and at that time I didn't really know
6 Sarajevo all that well.
7 Q. Witness, do you think or do you know, do you remember, if that
8 factory, Zrak, was operational during the war?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Witness, I'd like to go back to some of your statements. Is it
11 correct to say that you looked through, checked, verified, saw it, a
12 statement on the 10th of November, 1995, a statement talking to the
13 investigators of the International Tribunal?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm referring, Mr. President,
16 to a document which we wish to show the witness and then tender. I have
17 before me the Serbian text, which was submitted to the witness. So it is
18 up to you to decide. That is, it has to do with one word in that text,
19 and that word in Serb reads "soliter."
20 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think, if it's just about one word or one
21 line, to put the text in front of the witness, but if you would please
22 read it clearly and indicate perhaps prior to reading it to the
23 Prosecution what part you're referring to so that they can follow you. As
24 you know, the Bench has no copies of these statements. And then if it's
25 just about one word, in order to avoid whatever misunderstanding as far as
1 the translation is concerned, if the line has been read, I'd invite the
2 Prosecution to read the same line in English so to see that there's no
3 problem as far as translation is concerned. Please proceed -- please
4 indicate first, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, where you're referring to, what page of
5 the document, whether it's in the middle or ...
6 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the interpreters do not have
7 copies of this text, so could it be read very slowly.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, it is 0096461. The
9 statement is in Serbian. On the 10th of November, 1995. Mr. President,
10 may I continue?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The number you gave, is that the number of the
12 Serbian text?
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is the document which we
14 see in the Serbian version.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Has the Prosecution found the statement we are
16 talking about?
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] ERN.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It has been found. Is this a one-page document or
20 are there more pages?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As usual, there are several
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is page 2.
25 JUDGE ORIE: In the middle --
1 THE INTERPRETER: We're afraid we could not hear the exact line
2 because the counsel were speaking over the President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you indicate approximately at what line,
4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In English, it is 365, in the
6 middle of the eighth line.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You found it, Mr. Mundis?
8 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour, but if I could, briefly, for the
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. MUNDIS: The ERN number is slightly different from that
12 reflected on the transcript.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we'll read the text anyhow, so the ERN number
14 is not of major importance at this moment. Could you please then read
15 slowly for the interpretation the lines you want to refer to,
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall be happy to do so.
18 Q. Witness, with regard to this statement which I have before my
19 eyes, you spoke about shots coming from what was defined a moment ago as a
20 white skyscraper. You indicated that these shots came - and I'm quoting,
21 now I'm reading - "from the first floor." Can you confirm the statement
22 to us?
23 A. I told them I think from somewhere between the first and the tenth
24 floor. What they noted down, I don't know.
25 Q. Witness, your statement, did you sign it in Serbian?
1 A. I suppose I did.
2 Q. And is it true that in Serbian you use those two words, sa provog
3 sprata, the first floor, which I have before me?
4 A. What I said was it could be between the first and the tenth floor
5 that the shots came from, because I couldn't go there to see them, to look
6 at them. Those were purely guesses.
7 Q. I shall move on to another question, Mr. President.
8 You told us that the front lines were very near the place where
9 this unfortunate accident happened, that is, the river concerned. Is that
11 A. The separation line was nearby, yes.
12 Q. Witness, did it happen that around that line the fighting would
13 break out?
14 A. Well, yes, there would be gunfire time and again.
15 Q. And Witness, this gunfire which you mentioned, was it an exception
16 along the front line or, lamentably, the rule?
17 A. Well, there would be gunfire, I mean, serving no particular
18 purpose. There would just be shots fired.
19 Q. Witness, to your knowledge, the two armies, or the two parties,
20 did they confront one another on that line on the day of the incident too?
21 A. I'm not -- I don't understand.
22 Q. I shall rephrase my question. I'm sorry. To your knowledge, on
23 the day of the incident, did the -- the front line was the same,
25 A. Well, no, not that, but they also said that there was a
1 ceasefire. It was a quieter day. I said it.
2 Q. Can you tell us what truce, what cease-fire did they have that day?
3 A. Not to open fire.
4 Q. You told that there was a cease-fire -- between whom and whom?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, looking at the clock, you asked us
6 when we would have a break. I said at 12.30. We are a few minutes past.
7 Would you find a suitable moment to interrupt your cross-examination.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed, I shall resume after
9 the break, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So Mr. Halili, we'll have a break for 20 minutes.
11 We'll resume at 5 minutes to 1.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm reminding you on the time
15 limits as well. Would you please proceed in your cross-examination of the
16 witness, Mr. Halili.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
18 will be as brief as possible.
19 Q. Witness --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
21 MR. IERACE: Just before the cross-examination resumes, I would be
22 grateful for a moment of the Trial Chamber's time before we adjourn at
23 1.45. I have something to say. It will not take long. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A couple of minutes would be --
25 MR. IERACE: More than sufficient, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Before the break, sir, you told us that there was a truce, or a
5 cease-fire. At least, that is what I can see in the English transcript.
6 Who were the signatories of this cease-fire, to the best of your knowledge?
7 A. Whoever was in charge of signing such an agreement. The
8 international army. I don't know.
9 Q. I should like to know between which parties and not which
10 signatories, Witness. That is, to the best of your knowledge, who signed
11 this cease-fire agreement?
12 A. Well, the BH army and the former Serb army, the army of this Serb
14 Q. Sir, when you say "the former Serb army," what exactly do you have
15 in mind?
16 A. Well, I mean their army, the one that they had during the war.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like
18 the witness to be shown a map. We have a map here, but it was premarked
19 by the wife of the witness during the interview with her. We can see --
20 we can show the witness that map or the other one which is in the
21 possession of the Registry. It's up to you. The map in question is
22 02110612, and it is the Prosecution number.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want the witness to mark on it or --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, in accordance with his
25 answers. But perhaps that even won't be necessary, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So let's then just see whether we could use the map
2 in front of you, because usually we need blank maps or at least maps that
3 are without any confusion as far as the marking is concerned, any
4 pre-marking is concerned.
5 Mr. Usher, would you please ...
6 Prosecution, do you have any objection against the map indicated
7 by the Defence? One of the advantages of this map, of course, is that
8 it's quite detailed as far as the streets are concerned, so that's very
9 attractive, I would say.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if you could just refresh my memory as
11 to which map we're talking about.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- I'll just have it shown to you. There's a
13 limited pre-marking on it. Yes?
14 MR. MUNDIS: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Before we finally decide on whether any
16 markings will be made on this map, it can be shown on the ELMO now. Will
17 it be tendered into evidence perhaps in the near future, or is there any
18 intention to do so?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I need a minute to consult,
21 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, perhaps Mr. Mundis could answer the
23 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution is intending on
24 tendering that document through the next witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Yes, okay.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
2 think that we will be tendering this document.
3 Q. Witness, there is a map in front of you. Can you read what's
4 written on this map? Can you read the map?
5 A. I'll do my best.
6 Q. Well, I'll do my best too, so there will be two of us. On the map
7 that you have in front of you, could you indicate for us with a pointer,
8 which you can see on the desk in front of you, where the intersection
10 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid whatever misunderstanding, I'd like
11 to have the marking done with a thick marker, because there are already
12 some markings with a thin marker on the map. These are the pre-markings.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we should
14 perhaps take a different colour than the colour red. I see that the red
15 is the one that the usher has at the moment. Perhaps we should use the
16 black one.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, although I would rather stick to black and
18 blue. Perhaps in order to avoid misunderstandings, since there are
19 already some black markings on the map, perhaps as an exception we might
20 use red. But Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it would be far easier to start with a
21 blank map and not with all kind of markings on it already, although I do
22 know that the Prosecution did the same now and then. I have to invite
23 both parties to avoid whatever confusion there ever might exist. But we
24 can now use the red marker for marking at trial.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
1 Defence will be mindful of that in the future.
2 Q. Sir, could you please indicate for us the intersection where the
3 incident in question took place.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may mark it with a red pen.
5 A. To be quite frank, I'm not sure. I'm not very good at reading
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you think you can't do it because you're not --
8 your ability to read maps is not sufficiently developed, then please tell
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
13 Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Sir, could you please indicate for us - that's going to be easier
15 perhaps - the location of the Marsal Tito barracks on this map.
16 A. I couldn't tell you exactly where it is. I'm more than willing to
17 do it, but I don't think I can. I don't know.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It seems to me, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that the witness
19 has some difficulties in map-reading, so would you please keep that in
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm trying too,
22 but I'm also trying to elicit as precise questions as possible and discuss
23 the facts as they are. I now have to rephrase my questions, because the
24 witness obviously has some difficulties.
25 Q. Witness, could you have a look at the map and see where the area
1 of Hrasno is located. Can you see that?
2 A. Yes, I can.
3 Q. Could you now please indicate on the map the location.
4 A. [Indicates]
5 Q. Thank you, Witness. Could you please now circle the area called
6 Hrasno on this map.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Could you also indicate for us, sir, since you told us you were a
9 soldier, which was the brigade that you belonged to?
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Halili, could you please repeat your answer. The
12 interpreters were not able to hear you.
13 A. I belonged to the 101st Brigade.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Thank you. Sir, could you tell us if the headquarters of the
16 101st Brigade were located close to the circle that you have just made on
17 the map, that is, close to the area of Hrasno?
18 A. There was a battalion located in Hrasno.
19 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. And now, in order to clarify
20 the matters, could you tell us now how many people usually a battalion
21 consists? What is the strength of a battalion, in terms of manpower?
22 A. About 40 people, I suppose.
23 Q. You are referring to soldiers with weapons, armed soldiers?
24 A. Well, yes, they were soldiers.
25 Q. My question was: Were those soldiers armed soldiers? I'm
1 insisting on this question because the witness told us that there was not
2 enough weapons even for standing guards, so I should like to know whether
3 those soldiers were armed.
4 A. When they were on guard duty, they probably had weapons.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just looking at the transcript,
6 you started your question with whether there was a battalion -- whether
7 there was headquarters of the 101st Brigade located close to the circle
8 indicated. The answer was that there was a battalion located in Hrasno.
9 Then you asked about the general strength of a battalion and then you
10 continued about whether the soldiers were armed. Are you referring to
11 soldiers located in Hrasno or -- the questioning is not quite clear to me,
12 so it might confuse the witness as well.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
14 Mr. President. For the moment, I am discussing Hrasno, that is, the
15 battalion that the witness has told us about, which consisted of 40
16 persons. I'm talking about them at the moment.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the question, Mr. Halili, is about whether
18 the 40 soldiers -- you didn't say Hrasno, but you said the general
19 strength of a battalion was 40 people. And now the question is whether
20 any 40 people in Hrasno were armed or not.
21 A. When they were on guard duty, they had weapons, but generally
22 speaking, there was not enough weaponry for all of them.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. Does that mean that there
25 were soldiers who were incorporated in the unit but did not carry weapons
1 because there were not enough weapons? Do I understand you correctly?
2 A. [No interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you very much for your answer. How about yourself, sir,
4 since you were also a soldier? Did you have a weapon or not?
5 A. When I was on guard duty, I did.
6 Q. And when you would finish your shift, your guard duty, what would
7 happen with your personal weapon? What would you do with it?
8 A. I did not have my personal weapon. I was issued with an automatic
10 Q. When you say "personal" -- when I say "weapon," and when you say
11 "personal weapon," I am not referring to a weapon that you may have owned
12 personally, but something that you carried at the moment. So I should
13 like to know what would happen with that automatic rifle that you had been
14 issued with.
15 A. Well, the others would take it over.
16 Q. Witness, while you were engaged in the army and while you were
17 armed, where would you spend your nights? Where would you sleep?
18 A. Usually I would stay at home overnight. That's where I would
19 spend the night, because I lived close to the headquarters.
20 Q. You were therefore a military man who was engaged; however, in the
21 evening you would return home to your personal dwelling. Do I understand
22 you correctly?
23 A. Yes, in most of the cases, because the conditions were very bad in
24 terms of sleeping.
25 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. Could you now indicate, if
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 possible, on the map where your residence was.
2 A. It is situated on Trg Heroje Square.
3 Q. Could you indicate the location on the map, Witness, so that we
4 can see what the distance was.
5 A. [Indicates]
6 Q. I'm afraid I haven't seen the location. Could you mark it with a
7 different sign, that is, your place of residence? Thank you.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. You could perhaps put a second circle on the location in
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Very well. Witness, while you were active in the army, where
13 exactly was the command of the battalion? I'm referring to the battalion
14 to which you belonged.
15 A. It was located in one of the skyscrapers. There are five
16 skyscrapers on the square, and we were located in the cellar of one of
18 Q. I see. Thank you. When you were on duty in the battalion, did
19 you wear a uniform; and if so, what kind?
20 A. I did not wear any uniform, because we didn't have any.
21 Q. But you were engaged in this battalion; am I correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And when you carried your weapon, you had no uniform either?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Thank you, Witness, for your answer.
1 As regards the weaponry which was available to this battalion -
2 and I am referring to the year 1993 - what exactly did you have? I heard
3 you speak about a machine-gun, and I should like to know what other types
4 of weapon you had at the battalion.
5 A. We had five rifles for the entire guard.
6 Q. Witness, what would happen with other soldiers, those who were
7 with you on duty and who did not have any weapons? What did they do?
8 A. They were undergoing some sort of preparations or training.
9 Q. Witness, did you participate in any military engagement?
10 A. Do you meanwhile I was a soldier in the army?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. With this battalion?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So if I understand you correctly, there were only five of you.
16 A. But there would be five of us who were on guard duty, on Trg
17 Heroje Square.
18 Q. Witness, to participate in a military operation is not the same
19 thing as to stand guard, to be on guard duty. You said that there were
20 only five of you --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're using the word "engagement"
22 the first time and you're now using "operation militaire." That is not
23 the same wording with, and since you're confronting the witness with his
24 answer, I'd like you to mind again the way you put your questions to the
25 witness and not to --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're quite right.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You seem all right here as following part of the
3 French. You're creating confusion, and I'll not allow you to do so. I'll
4 ask the witness now to explain exactly what he meant by engaging in, I
5 would say, military activities.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Halili, when you are talking about your -- and
8 let me just read it literally. I just have to find it. The question was
9 put to you: "Did you participate in any military engagement?" Your answer
10 then was: "Do you mean while I was a soldier in the army?" Then
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin had said yes, and then you said: "Yes, I did." So you
12 did participate in a military engagement. Could you explain to us, apart
13 from being on guard, as you testified before, what else would be this
14 military engagement, if anything else.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I understand what you mean. I
16 never took part in any action. I stood guard. I was on guard duty, but I
17 never participated in any action.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Any other action than being a guard; do I understand
19 you well?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I don't think I'm
22 teaching anyone, but perhaps finding clear answers presupposes that there
23 are clear questions.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I will bear that in
25 mind, Mr. President.
1 Q. You told us, sir - and it was marked by a red circle - that there
2 was a skyscraper on a photograph that I don't know the number because
3 you -- because it was erased, but this is a document which I would like
4 shown again, Mr. President, shown to the witness. The Prosecution seem to
5 have erased the number. I don't know what the number is, but it's
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... 466, it is.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There is only one number.
9 There is only one number on this document that I am holding. It is --
10 JUDGE ORIE: There's a red stricken out and there's a black number
11 on it and we discussed the different numbering. So that's 02114266 you're
12 indicating to. That's the picture that's on the screen.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a
14 document which was submitted, but I did not finish. This was submitted
15 and shown to the witness during his examination-in-chief, and I can see
16 only one number, and I believe there is a letter. It was stricken, and --
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... two different
18 versions around.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have it here on the screen.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I please have the photo -- the copy you've got
21 in your hands.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to be absolutely
23 certain that this is the very same photograph that we are talking about.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know who provided this copy to you.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree with you that there's just the red
2 number on it, so I'm glad that I verified it. I don't know whether a copy
3 without a black number has ever been provided to the Defence, which of
4 course would create a lot of confusion, having two numbers on it, one
5 stricken out, another one, a black one, on top, not on the copy which is
6 available to the Defence at this moment. That's really confusing. It
7 takes us a lot of time and I don't need any comment apart from that you
8 understood what I mean. Is there any additional copy available for the
10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course I wanted to verify whether you -- you
11 see on the screen now that there are two numbers. That's the copy we
12 have. Yes. Please proceed.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank
14 you. I wanted to be absolutely certain that we're talking about the same
15 photograph, and now, thanks to you, it is all clear.
16 Q. Sir, I would like you to have a look at this photograph on your
17 right, and I believe mine is the very same picture except for a different
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Sir, could you tell us --
22 JUDGE ORIE: May I please ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, because I
23 want to have these kind of things clarified: Has, during the
24 examination-in-chief, another copy, the copy used while examining the
25 witness, has that also been provided to the Defence? That's the copy with
1 the two numbers on it.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As far as I know, I don't
3 think so. I don't see -- I only see one copy. I don't see the other one
4 was provided.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed that the usher did give to the Defence
6 also a copy with the red stricken-out number and the black number. Yes.
7 Would you --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, it's here.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please refrain from saying about just one
10 number on your copy when a couple of minutes ago not only the
11 double-numbered copy has been given to you, but apart the from that, I
12 indicated that there were two numbers on it. So at that moment you would
13 have been able to concentrate on the copy provided to you at that very
14 moment and not make any fuss about an earlier copy. Because that's the
15 copy you are now providing to the witness, not the one-numbered copy, not
16 the bad copy, but the two-numbered copy. Please proceed. Which copy is
17 now in front of the witness? Is that the -- I am putting a question. I
18 want to be sure what copy is on the ELMO. That's the double-numbered
19 copy, as far as I understand. Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I truly apologise. I am
21 sorry. This was --
22 JUDGE ORIE: It's accepted.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- our mistake. Thank you
24 very much. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I continue.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No other questions,
4 Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 Is there any need for re-examination?
7 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Has any of my colleagues any additional questions?
9 Judge Nieto-Navia will put questions to you.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes. I would like the diagram to be put
12 there, the first diagram we saw.
13 Would you please indicate the direction, according to your
14 opinion, of the bullet, there.
15 A. From this direction, on the left-hand side, this arrow here on the
16 left-hand side.
17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: So the bullet went through the containers,
18 through the -- or through the trailer?
19 A. Yes. It ricocheted from the asphalt, and that's when it hit her.
20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I also have a question for you, Mr. Halili. You told
22 us that your mother moved to the post office building and would sleep
23 there. Could you please tell us where she lived before she moved to the
24 post office building.
25 A. It was on the Hero Square. That was former street Pero Kosoric,
1 on the 19th floor.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And could you indicate Hero Square, in which part
3 of the city that is?
4 A. In Hrasno. That is the name of the part of the town, Hrasno, and
5 the street is Hero Square, or Trg Heroje.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you explain to us exactly why she felt it
7 was dangerous to stay there and move to the post office building?
8 A. Because every morning she had to go to work, and there was a
9 bridge that was very, very dangerous. There was shooting.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Would this mean that she would have to cross the
11 river, the Miljacka River?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And because of the dangerousness of the crossing, she
14 decided then to live at the other side of the river, I understand. Apart
15 from sleeping in the post office building, where would she stay when she
16 was not working, when she was not sleeping?
17 A. While she was working, and then when she would finish her shift,
18 she was there the whole time in the post office building. Sometimes I
19 would go and get her to the post office and then we would go together to
20 the apartment.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Were there other people that had moved into this post
22 office building in a similar way as your mother-in-law did?
23 A. Yes. There were people who were refugees, who had escaped, and
24 there were other people as well.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Would you tell us the approximate number of people
1 that were just, I would say, residing in the post office building?
2 A. Once I went into the cellar of the building, and there were over
3 180 people in the post office building, in the cellar.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers. Mr. Halili, this is the
5 end of your examination in this courtroom. Both parties and the Judges
6 have put questions to you. You'll understand it's important for the
7 Chamber to get information which might help them in taking decisions we'll
8 have to take. We thank you very much for coming this very far way to The
9 Hague, and I wish you a good journey home again. Thank you.
10 Mr. Usher, would you please lead Mr. Halili out of the courtroom.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, unless you would indicate otherwise to
14 me, I'd suggest that once we finish the admittance into evidence of
15 whatever documents presented for this witness, it's of no use to call the
16 next witness, and perhaps we might use the five minutes then remaining to
17 give you an opportunity t bring whatever --
18 Ms. Pilipovic, I was just looking too much to the left.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you'll allow me, I
20 have just one comment -- the Defence has one comment, and one of the
21 problems that we have in our work. We have 15 photographs in this
22 particular case, and that is the problem why there is sometimes a problem
23 in communication. And perhaps our colleagues could accept this. And if
24 they can refrain from giving us so many photographs, so much material,
25 because that is taking a lot of our time, and we find very difficult to
1 tell one photograph from the other, and there are many numbers. And I
2 understand that we should just take into account these photographs that we
3 are given by the Registry. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with you to the extent that the Chamber
5 has it far easier, because photographs are only presented during trial.
6 So there's no risk of confusing similar photographs -- the photographs
7 provided before. On the other hand, I'd like very much to concentrate
8 that whenever a document is shown to a witness, we should on from that
9 moment concentrate on that document, because that document will be
10 tendered into evidence. And I have understanding for the problems the
11 Defence is facing, and as you might have noticed, apart from some strong
12 words now and then in the direction of the Defence, I similarly address
13 the Prosecution when I thought they could perform better.
14 So then we'll have the admission into evidence. As far as my
15 recollection goes, we have P3662, a diagram.
16 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
17 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps I misheard Your Honour, but the diagram is
18 numbered P3262.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, then I make a mistake. Yes, it's 3662. I
20 apologise for -- Madam Registrar, she always helps us out if it really
21 becomes difficult.
22 THE REGISTRAR: It's document P3262.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's the diagram. Perhaps I had better leave it to
24 you, Madam Registrar. We have the video shown to the witness, which would
25 be ...
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P8 -- I'm sorry. 3280C, 3280C.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we have a set of two photos.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3271.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's not a matter of admission into evidence,
5 but just for clarity reasons, that the portion shown to this witness of
6 Exhibit 3279A, so the portion shown today is included in the admission
7 into evidence of this 360-degree photograph. And then the final document
8 we have, it starts, I think, with a "P" number, but since it has been
9 tendered by the Defence -- there are two. The first is I think the UN
11 THE REGISTRAR: D32, and the portion of the map of
12 Sarajevo, D33.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So then all these documents are admitted into
15 Mr. Ierace or Mr. Mundis, you still had something.
16 MR. IERACE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President and
17 Your Honours, this morning I received a letter by facsimile from my
18 learned friend Mr. Stephane Piletta-Zanin. It was in the French language,
19 so I took some steps to have it translated. I received that translation
20 immediately before we recommenced this last session, and shortly after, I
21 had arranged with my learned friend a meeting to take place tomorrow
22 afternoon at 2.00, being the weekly meeting that you, Mr. President, have
23 requested us to engage in so that we can sort out any admissibility
24 problems and so shorten time unnecessarily taken in Court.
25 Mr. President, I have read the translation, and it seems that it
1 is a letter that was copied to some other individuals, including the
2 Senior Legal Officer, Mr. Fourmy. I do not know whether Your Honours and
3 you, Mr. President, have had an opportunity yet to read the letter. It
4 raises two issues, one directly. I'll wait until you indicate to me that
5 you have read it, and I seek your guidance as to whether you wish me to
6 respond; and if so, whether you wish me to do so orally or in writing or
7 both. I will be happy to do so.
8 The second issue it raises is an indirect one. Suffice to say,
9 until Your Honours and you, Mr. President, have had an opportunity to
10 read and consider the letter, it could be fairly said that it raises a
11 serious concern as to whether the meetings which you wish to take place
12 can productively take place without there being present either the Senior
13 Legal Officer or a representative to ensure that what transpires in those
14 meetings is accurately reflected in the Trial Chamber. I regret to have
15 to say that, but having read the letter, there seems no alternative.
16 Mr. President and Your Honours, until such time as you have an
17 opportunity to respond, it is probably, unfortunately, necessary that the
18 meeting tomorrow does not go ahead. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I am not aware of having received a letter or a copy
20 of a letter. Since this letter has been raised in Court and since I
21 noticed that there has some difference of view as far as what has been
22 said during a meeting outside of Court was pointed at by the parties, I
23 wonder whether the parties -- I don't know whether the letter is addressed
24 to us or whether the parties want to provide us with a copy. Because
25 since I do not know the content, I do not know whether any intervention
1 from the Chamber would be appropriate or not. So I'm not aware of any
2 letter. No copy, as far as I know, was on my desk.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the letter was addressed to me and it
4 was marked as having been copied to various individuals in the Tribunal,
5 including Mr. Fourmy. I hesitate to inform Your Honours of the content of
6 the letter.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. IERACE: I would prefer that you initially read it privately.
9 I do not have the original with me. It is with the member of our team who
10 translated it for me. I would be content to wait until tomorrow.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could do that best.
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the letter to which refers Mr. Ierace is -- a
13 copy has been sent to Mr. Fourmy. Do I understand that it was your
14 intention that Mr. Fourmy would communicate the content of the letter with
15 the Chamber or ...
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, am I allowed to
17 respond very briefly?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This was my intention.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That was your intention. So then I'll take care that
21 we -- the Chamber will read the letter this afternoon and we'll then see
22 whether it's appropriate to discuss the letter in this courtroom.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps since Mr. Ierace
24 was -- took some time in expressing this, I was -- may I?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What happened is that I worked
2 on a number of continents, in a number of jurisdictions, whether they were
3 arbitrary, civilian, or criminal, and this has been going on for some 20
4 years, or even a quarter of a century. It never happened during the
5 entire time, without any false modesty, that any magistrate put words in
6 my mouth that I have not spoken.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I asked you yesterday whether the
8 misquoting was something you wanted to be investigated by this Chamber or
9 not, or that you just would like to have it corrected during the oral
10 hearing, and you said that was what you wanted at this moment. I can tell
11 you that I went through the transcript to locate precisely the remark you
12 referred to. So if you now want to -- if you have now changed your
13 mind -- I wouldn't mind. If you say, "No. It's a matter that really
14 needs some further investigation," that's fine, but I offered you to dive
15 into the matter. You said it was not necessary. Do I understand you well
16 that now you want us to deal with it, or -- because you are now -- perhaps
17 it's some justification. I don't know. You're now complaining about what
18 happened, being misquoted for something you said outside of Court. I'd
19 like to be -- first of all, I would like to clarify on whether you want
20 the Chamber to be -- to deal with the matter or not, because yesterday you
21 said that it was not necessary.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you so
23 much for that intervention. Yesterday -- I said yesterday it was useless
24 for the Trial Chamber to use -- to waste time, and that this could be
25 dealt with directly. And that is the reason why I addressed a direct
1 letter to Mr. Ierace, and perhaps he did not accept it - this was just a
2 European courtesy- that I copy that letter to a number of people. And I
3 was hoping that this problem could be resolved like that. However, if I
4 am being misquoted, told that I said things which I didn't, and then I
5 would like Mr. Ierace to take the consequences. I would never -- I do not
6 want to have people to say words that I did not say. If Mr. Ierace thinks
7 that we can deal with it outside of the Chamber, then that is fine; but if
8 the Trial Chamber wants to deal with it, that is fine, but not me.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. What we'll do is we'll read the letter
10 and we'll find a solution one way or the other that the parties continue
11 to communicate with each other. If not, of course this will have
12 consequences on how this trial will be held. We'll give it proper
14 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 9.52 a.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 31st day of
17 January, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.