1 Wednesday, 6 February 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 I see, Mr. Ierace, you're on your feet. Is there anything you
11 wanted to tell us?
12 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I will keep it brief. Yesterday
13 afternoon, I met with Defence counsel and we discussed the proposal that
14 the Prosecution call tomorrow a witness to give evidence in relation to
15 the shooting and editing of videos and electronic photographs.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. IERACE: I made the offer that the witness be made available
18 to the Defence prior to him giving evidence. That offer was declined.
19 The Defence expressed concern that they did not have a statement.
20 Mr. President, I can inform the Trial Chamber that there is a statement,
21 in part, as to what the evidence will be. The witness's name is Zoran
22 Lesic, L-e-s-i-c. The statement has been disclosed to the Defence some
23 time ago. The date of the statement is the 21st of November, 2001. The
24 statement covers the shooting, that is, the taking of the video, and I
25 would seek your leave, Mr. President, to ask the witness, during his
1 evidence, questions going beyond what is in the statement, to include the
2 taking of the photographs and the method by which they were joined. Thank
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, any observations as far as
5 the -- or Ms. Pilipovic?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank
7 you. What the Defence would like is not that it should be informed alone,
8 but that everybody can be informed, and that we have, from an expert,
9 statements which are quantifiable and can be verified and that we be kept
10 abreast. Thank you
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps a way around this dilemma is,
14 since the issue has been raised by the Defence, that from this point on,
15 until such time as the evidence is called, the videos and the 360-degree
16 photographs not be tendered but rather be marked for identification, so
17 that after the Defence has had the opportunity to hear from the witness,
18 at that point the Prosecution would then formally seek to tender the
19 remaining material. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: One more question for you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If the
21 witness would be called -- it is mainly you that wanted to have more
22 information, and I do understand that you also wanted quantifiable and
23 verifiable, but would you have any questions to put to a witness who is
24 able to explain whatever technical aspects there are as far as the
25 shooting and the redacting of these photos and videos is concerned? I
1 mean, I would like to avoid the situation where the witness has been
2 called and where you would have no questions to put to him.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I understood
4 that so far the Defence seems to have had too many questions, and we
5 would, of course, have questions for that witness too.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So it's useful to call the witness.
7 Then, Mr. Ierace, you may call the witness. As far as marking for
8 identification or tendering into evidence is concerned, we should not
9 forget that, I would say, the whole technical issue of admitting into
10 evidence is a technique which is mainly used in, I would say, common-law
11 environments, where it is of vital importance to keep a close eye on what
12 will be presented to a jury and what will not be presented to a jury,
13 while the law of evidence in a mixed, in a hybrid system, or in civil-law
14 systems mainly is a matter of the evaluation of the evidence which is
15 available; and exclusion of the evidence would mean, in a common-law
16 environment, that you keep it away from those who will decide, while in a
17 hybrid system it's, I would say, more a question of whether you take into
18 consideration -- whether you allow to take into consideration any evidence
19 that, although presented to you, should be excluded from your mind.
20 Being in a mixed system at this moment, I do not see any specific
21 reason why these videos should just be marked for identification, since it
22 would not be for the first time that material that is admitted into
23 evidence in this Tribunal would later be excluded, or at least the
24 admissibility would be reviewed and then perhaps the material would be
25 declared not admissible into evidence. Since a matter of evaluation, it's
1 still open even when some portions of the evidence might have been
2 admitted. This wouldn't mean that it, therefore, under all circumstances
3 will be taken into consideration by the Chamber.
4 Having explained this, so you may call Mr. Lesic. And you intend
5 to do that tomorrow morning, as far as I understand?
6 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. We could do it at any stage
7 tomorrow. It's at the convenience of the Trial Chamber.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
9 Ms. Pilipovic.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. In view
11 of the fact that my colleagues and I had a meeting yesterday, I should
12 like to get information from my colleagues with respect to the order of
13 witnesses to be heard today and tomorrow, because we were saying that
14 there would be witnesses tomorrow for incident number 6. But I didn't
15 receive any information yesterday as to whether those witnesses will,
16 indeed, be present tomorrow. So I should like to ask my learned
17 colleagues and the Trial Chamber, as far as possible, to adhere to the
18 witness list for witness testimony that we received because we very often
19 seem to have alterations. And I was told yesterday afternoon that we are
20 going to have two witnesses tomorrow which are not on the list and
21 schedule for tomorrow. Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I do recall that yesterday you indicated that there
23 might be some problems as far as the travelling of witnesses was
24 concerned. If there's any further information, would you please give it
25 to the Chamber and also so that the Defence is informed.
1 Apart from that, if there are changes on the order of calling the
2 witnesses, of course it's of vital importance that the Defence is informed
3 as soon as possible.
4 And if you would have any specific problems with a certain
5 witness, please let us know, Ms. Pilipovic, indicating exactly when you
6 received information about the change of the order of calling the
8 Mr. Ierace.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can give that update now. Indeed, I
10 gave it to my friends yesterday afternoon. I'm surprised to hear what has
11 just been said. The next witness will be Mensur Jusic, followed by
12 Witness M, followed by Witness H, followed by Zematica, Faheda Zematica.
13 I said as much to my friends yesterday, and of course we will fit into
14 that schedule Zoran Lesic. The two witnesses about whose arrival became
15 unsure yesterday were Witness H and Zematica. But it became clear during
16 the meeting with the Defence yesterday that those problems were resolved,
17 and I said as much to them. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. One of the advantages of the
19 schedule I gave to you is that you can just take out all witnesses that
20 have been already heard and just keep the order or change the order. And
21 I now see that on the 4th of February, we received Mensur Jusic part of
22 the schedule, and on the 5th of February, a Ramiz Grabovac. And of
23 course, if you don't put them in order, I don't know who will be first,
24 who will be next.
25 So one -- I would suggest that whenever you issue a new schedule,
1 that you indicate whether there are any changes in respect of the order
2 earlier given to the Defence, and that you list all those witnesses not
3 yet examined in the order you intend to call them so to have a better view
4 on what will happen. Because schedules with just one name on it, I
5 especially intended to always have an overview of what will happen. Yes.
6 MR. IERACE: I understand that, Mr. President. We'll do that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
9 like to thank the Chamber for its understanding. I should just like to
10 inform the Chamber that yesterday afternoon, we were told that Witness H
11 and Zematica would be heard today or tomorrow. I think that is a very
12 short time, but we are prepared to cross-examine those witnesses, although
13 it was short notice. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm glad to hear - although I do understand your
15 difficulties, that you are nevertheless ready to cross-examine the
17 I think, then, we are at the point where Mrs. Taric could be
18 brought into the courtroom in order to be cross-examined by -- would it be
19 you, Ms. Pilipovic, or Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague
21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mrs. Taric.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
25 JUDGE ORIE: From your answer, I do understand that you can hear
1 me and you do understand me. May I remind you that you are still bound by
2 the solemn declaration you gave yesterday.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: As I indicated yesterday, you'll now be
5 cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin of the Defence team.
6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 WITNESS: NAFA TARIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. Thank you for having come to this courtroom. To begin with, I
14 would like to refer to what you said during your testimony yesterday. Is
15 it correct, madam, that your place of residence was what we generally call
16 the Heros' Square?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Witness, madam, in the square, or near Heros' Square, was there a
19 building that was commonly known as Loris, the Loris building?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Madam, you spoke about your family. You're married; that's
22 correct, isn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you for the brevity of your answer. Could you tell us the
25 profession of your husband; what does your husband do?
1 A. My husband works in MUP.
2 Q. Madam, could you tell us, please, what MUP stands for?
3 A. He is a crime inspector.
4 Q. Madam, and what education and training has your husband had?
5 A. An inspector school, school for inspectors.
6 Q. Madam, throughout the period of the war, that is, from May 1992
7 until the end of 1995, what were the duties and functions of your husband?
8 A. May I object here, please, because we're not talking about my
9 husband; we're talking about myself and my child.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution objects to this line
12 of questioning on grounds of relevance.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please indicate the
14 relevance of your questioning at this point.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall be happy to,
16 Mr. President. This witness and the answers she gave a moment ago has
17 given two or more written statements. In her own written statements that
18 I'm going to show to her, the witness said that her husband was a military
19 commander. Now, I think that it is very important for us to learn certain
20 things because this witness is linked to someone in her family -- that is,
21 somebody in her family was a high military commander.
22 A. No, that's not true.
23 JUDGE ORIE: At this point, Mrs. Taric, we're still at the point
24 where the Court has to decide whether these questions can be put to you,
25 so you don't have to answer them at this moment.
1 Mr. Mundis.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, our objection remains the same. First
3 of all, Mr. Piletta-Zanin hasn't put to the witness what her husband was
4 doing during the course of the war, number one. And number two, and
5 perhaps more importantly, what would be the relevance of what her husband
6 was doing during the course of the war given that this witness has
7 testified about an event involving herself and her daughter outside of
8 their home, walking down the streets of Sarajevo?
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin and Mr. Mundis, the mere fact that
11 the witness has until now testified about an incident would, as such, not
12 exclude any specific reason for that incident to happen. So the Defence
13 should be in a position to establish whatever reasons there might have
14 been for this incident. And it was not just accidentally that this
15 incident happens. On the other hand, then we are in an area,
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, where the Defence should indicate to the witness what
17 its case is. So if you think that there's any relationship between the
18 occupation of the witness of the -- of the husband of the witness and the
19 incident, then you'd please explain to the witness what your case in this
20 respect would be, and then, of course, you're allowed to establish
21 whatever relationship, unknown to the Chamber at this moment, might have
22 been there.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. Madam, I'll put my question in a different way. You said
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 yesterday -- we weren't able to see the photos very well. They were
2 rather dark. But you did say that the incident took place close to the
3 front lines; is that right? Can you confirm that?
4 A. Near -- it did not happen near the front line. The demarcation
5 line, as the crow flies, was about one kilometre away, so the
6 confrontation line was a kilometre away.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when you're quoting, it's, of
8 course, not the witness that should deny if there was any misquoting. If
9 so, please, would you give the source of where the witness said that the
10 incident took place close to the confrontation line, and perhaps also
11 specify what you think of being close. Is that one kilometre, is that ten
12 kilometres, is it fifty metres? Please proceed.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall rephrase my question.
14 Q. You spoke about the front line; is that true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you for your answer. Madam, could you tell the Trial
17 Chamber, which likes precision, at what distance the front lines were from
18 the incident that took place.
19 A. I have just said that I'm not quite sure. I can't be precise.
20 But as the crow flies, in a straight line, it would be about one
22 Q. Madam, you spoke about the front line. Do you know whether the
23 front lines corresponded to the trenches and trench lines?
24 A. I don't know about that. I wasn't at that place.
25 Q. Madam, you were, at the time, married to a man who was - and is it
1 correct if I say that he was a military commander? And I would be happy
2 to show you your statement, a statement to that effect.
3 A. Could you clarify that question, please?
4 Q. Madam, did you give a written statement, I think in Sarajevo, on
5 the 12th of November, 1995?
6 A. Could you explain what you mean by your question?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Taric, if I can help you --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin is referring to a statement which
10 you would have given in 1995. He has the text in front of him and would
11 like to ask, I think, some questions about your statement at that time and
12 go, perhaps, through a few elements. So the first question is whether you
13 gave a statement in 1995 to the investigators of the Tribunal.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Madam, do you speak English?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Madam, you nevertheless signed the statement which was in English;
20 is that correct?
21 A. Along with a translation.
22 Q. Who authenticated or verified that translation?
23 A. The lady who was the coordinator there.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should now
25 like to submit to the partisan, the witness, the witness's statement in
1 English. It was translated, and it is dated the 12th of November, 1995.
2 It is number ERN 00360800, for the first page, and 01 for the second page,
3 and it is a document provided us by the Prosecution.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You want to give it to the witness in order to
5 verify her signature or ...?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to show the
7 statement to the witness to see whether it is indeed her signature. That
8 is my first point. And also, my second point -- the document is a
9 three-page document. The third page is 802; the last digits are 802.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's our procedure that since the exact
11 number is known, that it's not tendered into evidence and it's also not
12 marked for identification, as we usually did. So would you first please
13 give it and just --
14 Mrs. Taric, could you just verify on the pages in front of you:
15 Is this your signature under it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is my signature.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then, please, return the papers to the
19 Mr. Usher, would you please give the original back to
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. You know that if you want to
22 confront the witness with part of the statement, that you read, literally,
23 that part, and then put whatever questions you have on these parts.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like
25 to use the Serbian text so that the witness could read the text herself,
1 and I think that everybody will be satisfied that way.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, you would agree? Since this is the
3 translation prepared by the Prosecution, I think it diminishes the risk of
4 any misinterpretation.
5 MR. MUNDIS: Again, Mr. President, the 12 November 1995 statement
6 of the witness in the Bosnian language is not signed by the witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do know, but if it will be read in English,
8 then it has to be translated anyhow to the witness, because you can't
9 confront her with it in the English language. So I would think twice
10 translating creates a greater risk of mistakes than just relying on the
11 original text. If there would be any reason on the specific point to
12 check whether the translation is correct or not correct, it could be done
13 easily, I think.
14 MR. MUNDIS: That's correct, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You agree?
16 So then you may read it in the original language. Would you have
17 for the interpreter's booth copies of the statement on this -- so that it
18 will be -- yes, I see. Yes, please proceed.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not have a sufficient
20 number of copies, but since I was already envisaging the objection of
21 Mr. Mundis -- I was not envisaging this, so that I did not prepare too
22 many copies of this. Can the usher please help me.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that the interpreters' booth
24 have copies. Yes, please proceed.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I see some of them having -- waving with papers.
2 THE INTERPRETER: We have the statement, Your Honour, in B/C/S and
3 in English.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And in English. So I think -- no, they're not -- I
5 see -- it's difficult for me because the glass is rather dark. Part of
6 the interpreters have no copy - would you please provide them - and the
7 others have.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, the B/C/S booth has it.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the interpreters, we shall
10 be reading -- or rather, we shall be showing the passage on page 2,
11 somewhere halfway down the page, and it starts: "I never saw or heard ..."
12 and so on and so forth.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So then please read it to the witness,
14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. I think I'd rather have
16 the witness read it, because it is in Serbian, and it will be better that
17 she reads it in her own language.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you want to confront the
19 witness with it, I would prefer you to read it to her.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I shall be happy to say
21 it in Serbian.
22 Q. Witness, you said the following, in the language which is yours,
23 and I will now quote you:
24 "I never saw or heard that anybody was hit in that street. We
25 were the first and the last to be hit from a sniper weapon on that
1 street. I know that because my husband is a military commander and he
2 knows the details."
3 Now, I did not follow the interpretation at the same time, but,
4 madam, did you hear what I said and did you understand what I read out to
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Madam, can we then agree that, as you said in your language, which
8 I have just read, that your husband was a military commander?
9 A. Since I do not speak English, whether the interpretation is
10 correct that my -- that it is the same thing for my husband to be a member
11 in the -- a worker -- an employee of the MUP as a military commander when
12 I was giving this statement that I was explained that that was one and the
13 same thing, and when I signed it [as interpreted]. But I wanted to object
14 on this occasion, that I'm here as a civilian victim and to leave my
15 private life alone.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Taric, the Defence has the opportunity to put
17 whatever questions that might be relevant. And the matter whether you are
18 a civilian or not, of course, you testified on the incident that happened
19 to you. But the Defence is entitled to see whether there are any
20 backgrounds that they think relevant, so I would invite you to answer the
22 And perhaps I'll help you to the extent that the question was, on
23 page -- it's written in the English language, which you do not understand,
24 but of which the English version was signed by you, that your husband was
25 a military commander. The first question was whether you said this, of
1 course not in English but in your own language, or that you did not say
2 this to the investigators in 1995.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He's an employee in the MUP,
4 Ministry of the Interior.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you used these wordings in
6 1995 or that you used wordings that he was a military commander.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Member of the MUP, an employee of
8 the MUP.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's what you said in 1995, as I understand, or is
10 that your explanation now?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An employee of the MUP, a member of
12 the MUP, not a commander. If it was translated --
13 JUDGE ORIE: So you say in 1995, you used the words "MUP" and not
14 "military commander."
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Witness, you told us a moment ago -- because I think that this
19 matter now becomes fundamental for the Defence, this translation. Now,
20 you told us that you signed a document in English because they were in the
21 presence of one or two interpreters. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. And this interpreter evidently spoke your language?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And it was the interpreter's mother tongue, I mean the Bosnian
2 A. I believe so.
3 Q. And the interpreter, therefore, read to you your non-signed
4 version in Serbian?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Madam, I am sure that I did not pronounce it well, but what you
7 understand by the words "vojni zapovjednik," am I wrong or am I rather
8 right that that clearly means a military commander?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Will you please tell the Chamber what these two words mean that
11 three interpreters interpret here as a "military commander"?
12 A. I don't understand it because I don't understand the role of the
13 person who does it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Taric, I have the feeling that you might think
15 yourself as in a position where you would have to defend yourself against
16 questions with which you might think that one way or the other might
17 attack you. There's no question about it. You just can answer the
18 questions. If, for example, you would have used these words but -- let's
19 say, you think that's still what I intended to say or I meant to say,
20 please answer these questions. There's no reason to be nervous about it.
21 Whatever you tell us, just tell the Court -- just answer the questions.
22 The only thing that's of importance is that you answer the questions now
23 to the best of your recollection, both of what you said in 1995 and what
24 your recollection is as of today. So it's not necessary to start any
25 debate with Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If you just quietly answer his questions,
1 everything's fine.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember -- as far
3 as I can remember, because that was a long time ago, perhaps I did not pay
4 enough attention to the interpretation when the translation was read out
5 to me so I did not correct it then. But I do not think that this is an
6 accusation because I know that my husband had nothing to do with the army
7 save that he did -- except that before the war, he did the same thing as
8 he's doing today.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If we come to a
10 matter of translations, we have very high-quality translator, so it's in
11 the transcript what you did read to the witness. So the meaning of that
12 linguistically may be verified easily.
13 I have one additional question: Are there any tape recordings of
14 these interviews?
15 MR. MUNDIS: As a general rule, no, Mr. President. I can inquire
16 whether there were any tape recordings made of this specific interview.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. MUNDIS: I find it extremely doubtful but I will make that --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I just wanted to know whether there is any source for
20 verification available to us.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Mr. President, we should like to tender the two documents, which is, (a),
24 the statement in English, and the non-signed version in the Serbian or
25 Bosnian language, because there is this problem which seems to us of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 utmost importance.
2 Q. Madam, I will continue now with my questions. You said that your
3 husband is still doing the same job, but what were exactly his duties
4 during the war?
5 A. He worked at the MUP.
6 Q. Yes, I believe we got that, but the fact that he worked in the MUP
7 does not say what were his duties. What were his duties during the war,
8 will you please?
9 A. He was a criminal investigation inspector, the job that he's doing
10 now and that he did before the war.
11 Q. Very well. Therefore, you should know, I think, more specifically
12 if, after your incident, a police report was drawn?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Madam, does that now mean that you don't know or that no report
15 was made?
16 A. No reports were made under those circumstances, in wartime.
17 Q. Witness, are you absolutely sure?
18 A. As far as I know, no record was done.
19 Q. Witness, to the best of your recollection, please, you said that
20 during that time, there was -- there was light, there was fire, that the
21 weather was nice over Sarajevo, that the sky was clear over Sarajevo.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, now I believe
23 we have to produce a document, but I'm afraid we thought that we would
24 hear one of the general objections, and therefore I should say that this
25 is a document which was supplied by the Prosecution and which was a daily
1 report of the UNPROFOR. It is the document which made difficulties
2 yesterday, but this is the document of a same nature. We received it from
3 the Prosecution, and now we should like to -- this is a slightly technical
4 problem, so I have to ask the Chamber to solve it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: This kind of report, to the extent that if there's
6 any part of the testimony of the witness which would cover any of the
7 information in this report, it could be relevant as to the assessment of
8 the credibility of the witness. So please proceed.
9 Mr. Mundis, you know what the position of the Chamber is, so I
10 think that's the reason why you just sat down.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Witness, a moment ago, I asked you if you spoke English. Now, I
14 want to ask you if you can read English a little?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Very well. In that case, I will read to you a document, a part of
17 it, but I need the leave of the Chamber to do so.
18 MR. MUNDIS: If my learned colleague could please provide us with
19 the date or ERN number of the document or a copy of the document, that
20 would be quite helpful.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what I just intended to tell
22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. The Chamber does read English, so --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I was about to do it.
24 But the Defence -- shall I give one copy for each one?
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the interpreters do not have the
3 text. Could it be placed on the ELMO, please.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will give several pages of
5 the document to the usher. It is two pages. And I wish to inform every
6 person present here that it is the first page, a rather important
7 document. The document was not copied in full.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could the first page of the document be placed on the
9 ELMO, please.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be D36.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No interpretation].
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. And are there any copies left for
14 the... ?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No interpretation].
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will just make sure we don't
18 waste any time. First of all, we have a rather voluminous report in front
19 of us, and the second page bearing the S1994/674, 654 page covers the rest
20 of the day, the Friday. Sorry, page 635.
21 Q. Ma'am, do you see, on your right-hand side, the page of the final
22 report, [In English] 780(92), et cetera?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And we also have the second
24 page, which I would like to be placed on the ELMO. Here we are. Perhaps
25 from the -- if we can ask from the technical booth if we can go a little
1 bit further. Can we zoom out a little so that we go to the item A?
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Here we
4 are. The interpreters have the entire text. I would like them to read to
5 the witness the first paragraph, beginning, "Combat and shelling
6 activity." Here we are. First of all --
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 "Combat and shelling activity. A thick fog over Sarajevo quieted
10 all shooting, according to the Bosnian Serb agency SRNA." Then,
11 underlined, "3284/." "UNPROFOR reported that the situation remained quiet
12 in the city and on Mount Igman. Source(s) Agence France Presse."
13 That's what you wanted to read. Please proceed.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
15 reason why I did not want to read it is because I did not want the witness
16 to feel it as some kind of -- too much of a direct question coming from
18 Q. So, madam, could you tell us, if you remember, of the weather,
19 what it was like on the day of the incident? I've asked you about the
20 whole day, and you told me that it was a sunny day. And so I am now
21 asking the question again that you've heard, that you heard that there was
22 a weather -- an official weather report, what it said.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. This document -- there's
25 no indication that this is any kind of official weather report.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just confer.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: This is part of the report of the committee of
4 experts. The witness may be confronted with the content of this report.
5 What the reliability of this report is, of course, still can be tested,
6 Mr. Mundis, so just confronting the witness with this document doesn't say
7 that what's in the document is, as such, reliable or true.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, my objection went more to the form of
9 the question, in which Mr. Piletta-Zanin said: "And so I'm asking now the
10 question that you've heard, that you heard that there was --"
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I will rephrase the
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase my question.
15 Q. Madam, you have before you an official document which states that
16 there was a thick fog and that this thick fog was covering Sarajevo. You
17 told us that on the day of the incident, the whole day, it was sunny.
18 Madam, do you confirm what you have just told us a moment ago?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please give the exact
20 source of where the witness said that it was sunny during the whole day.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I asked that
22 question in French, and this is one of the problems that has to be
23 addressed. I said, "the whole day," and this was a couple of moments
24 ago. And I would like to look for it, but I cannot check the English
25 transcript and check the translation. I believe it is "the whole day."
1 So I think we can check in the transcript. I'm absolutely certain that
2 the French transcript, which we could perhaps have a look at, is actually
3 saying it.
4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yesterday, on page 66, line 2 - I have the
5 note here - it says "sunny day," but it doesn't say "the whole day." I
6 don't know, really, but maybe we can try to --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I can immediately check, but I think you have to
8 allow me to just open the file of yesterday, which is ...
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember from
10 yesterday, we're talking about balconies, or people were sitting outside,
11 drinking coffee.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm doing a search now on the word
13 "sunny." Your question yesterday was: "Was the sun shining? Was it
14 raining, was it cloudy or overcast? Do you recall?" The answer was: "It
15 was a sunny September day." That was the exact wording, at least in the
16 English transcript, of what the testimony was, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. It's
17 at, as far as I can see, page 3119, line 20. And the witness testified
18 that it was 5.00 in the afternoon. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 That's what the testimony was as far as the sun shining that day.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Fine. So I will now ask the
21 question again, but I would like to check on today's transcript, if you'll
22 allow me, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I believe
25 that we can see the problems that come from the English transcript, in
1 page 19, for instance, line 8. You can see that there is something
2 missing in my question in English. The English transcript reads -- or
3 rather, has certain things missing, and I said in French what should have
4 been interpreted into Serbian correctly. I actually used "the whole
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm sure that there will be an
7 opportunity for you to check exactly, on page 19, line 8, whether there
8 was any maltranslation or something left out. Of course, I don't remember
9 that, and I am listening with one ear English, one ear French. But if
10 this would be the solution of five minutes' searching for the word "sun"
11 in the transcript, then you're totally justified to have done so; if it's
12 not, we've wasted five minutes of time. Because the word "sun," apart,
13 perhaps, from that specific occasion - of course, there may be a
14 mistake - but the word "sun" has not been used by the witness, and so
15 whatever you would have said on page 19 --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If you please allow me.
18 Whatever your question may have been at page 19, line 8, at that moment no
19 answer has been given by the witness. So that means that, since there's
20 no word "sun" or "sunny" in the transcript of today, and since yesterday
21 there was no testimony that would indicate that it was sunny during the
22 whole day, while the witness said the incident took place at 5.00 in the
23 afternoon, that I really do not see how there is a solid basis for the
24 question which took our attention already now for five or seven minutes.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Thank you. But this is a general problem, and I can check from tomorrow
3 the French transcript and then we'll see what steps we'll take.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm always interested to see the results of checking
5 things, and not -- I'm not that much interested in whatever, by whomever
6 party it may be, that they intend to check a lot of things, but I'm glad
7 to see the results of this activity. Please proceed.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Q. I would ask you the question again. You said that on the day of
10 the incident, it was a fine day; the weather was good?
11 A. Yes, it was. Yes, it was a fine day. I have something to say,
12 objection. The report I can see on the ELMO is observation of Sarajevo
13 from Igman, from Mount Igman. And the weather can differ.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just see, Mrs. Taric, because the
15 document says more. It's not just about Mount Igman. You have testified
16 that, on the day of the incident, it was a sunny September day.
17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin gives us a report of a committee of experts which says,
18 about the weather, that there was a thick fog reported by some agencies.
19 And the question is: Being confronted with information about fog on that
20 day, would this mean that your answer would not have been correct as far
21 as the --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sure -- I am certain that in
23 the city of Sarajevo on that day, there was no fog. It was a fine day.
24 It was a warm day. I'm certain of it because of what I was wearing on
25 that day.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness. You said a moment ago that,
4 as far as you were concerned, there was no -- there were no reports
5 following the incident.
6 A. I don't know of any such report.
7 Q. Madam, I believe that you said that in wartime, there were no such
8 police reports. Is that correct?
9 A. I don't know of any such reports that was done.
10 Q. Do you know, madam, if after such incidents, UNPROFOR was informed
11 of such incidents?
12 A. I don't know of that.
13 Q. Witness, you said that you lived in the Heros' Square.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Do you know if there was a military command post near
16 where you lived?
17 A. Not that close.
18 Q. If you say that it was not that close, could you tell us where
19 this post was, since it seems that you knew where it was?
20 A. About 500 to 800 metres from our neighbourhood.
21 Q. Madam, do you know what was there, who was there?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Madam, I'm going to return to the question of your husband. You
24 said that you knew about certain things about what you said in your
25 statement, and you put that in relation to your husband's functions, his
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 duties. We saw that his duties were not the ones that we read about in
2 the statement. How could you know of some things about the trenches, for
3 instance, if your husband did not have a military function, and if you say
4 yourself you did not go close, you did not approach those lines? And when
5 I say "lines," I mean lines; I do not mean trenches.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. I may have missed it, but
7 I don't believe the witness has mentioned the word "trenches" during any
8 of her testimony, either yesterday or today.
9 JUDGE ORIE: About trenches?
10 MR. MUNDIS: Trenches.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's my recollection that the witness said
12 she didn't know about trenches since she had not been at the place, and
13 the question was in relation to where the front lines were. So trenches
14 have been part of the cross-examination until now. So if there's anything
15 in the prior statement about trenches, I deny the objection.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. No, what I had -- I
18 corrected it immediately in my question. What I said was trenches, but
19 what I meant was front lines.
20 Q. So in your statement, madam, you said that you knew about some
21 things, that is, front lines, because your husband in a certain post. How
22 could you --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, are you referring to the previous
24 statement or are you referring to the testimony given in this courtroom?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am referring
1 to the statement that we read from a moment ago which is from November
3 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I remember, no part has been read about
4 front lines. It's my recollection, but just from my memory, that you read
5 a line where the witness at this time gave a statement that she knew that
6 this was the only incident in that street, and she knew that because her
7 husband was a military commander. That is what is in my recollection,
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm going to rephrase my
10 question. You're absolutely right, Mr. President, and I'm going to ask
11 the question again in relation to the snipers. Because in this statement
12 we were talking about --
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... has been about --
14 as far as I remember, but --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that -- I'm not
16 absolutely convinced that I agree with your recollection.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed with your questions, and I'll have a
18 look at the transcript in more detail.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Madam, in the statement that you made, I believe that it was in
21 November 1995, I think it was 15th November, you said that you knew about
22 certain things in relation to sniping because your husband held a certain
23 post. This is in the Serbian and English statement. And it is about him
24 being a military commander.
25 Now, inasmuch as you say that your husband was not a military
1 commander, how could you know certain things, those that you mentioned in
2 your statement?
3 A. There was war in Sarajevo, but we had work obligations.
4 Considering that I am a teacher, I had to go from one part of town to
5 another part of town to work. And because of trying to keep safe during
6 moving through the city, during movement through the city, I had to know
7 of the locations. I had to know the locations that were known as
8 dangerous and those spots where I had to literally run. This statement I
9 gave is the one where I said that I knew of certain spots, certain
10 locations. I did not say anything else in particular.
11 Q. Witness, in your statement in two languages, in English and in
12 Serbian, it says that you knew about certain details about various
13 incidents, sniping incidents, because your husband held certain functions,
14 and that these functions were possibly erroneously named as being that of
15 a military commander. Now, how could you know these details if your
16 husband was not a military commander?
17 A. As I was going to work and coming back from work, I heard about
18 the cases that often happened, not only in the area where I lived but in
19 the entire city of Sarajevo.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somebody would get killed, somebody
22 would get wounded from sniping bullets.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would first give an opportunity to Mr. Mundis
25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'm going to check the transcript from
1 yesterday, but I believe the witness in her testimony yesterday indicated
2 that she gathered the information the following day while she was in the
3 hospital. I would also raise an objection with respect to the form in
4 which my learned colleague continues to put this quote from the witness's
5 previous statement to her by paraphrasing rather than, again, relying on
6 her document or the statement that she has given.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would just give me one second to read
8 the transcript at this moment, because I was at the same time checking
9 another part of the transcript. One moment, please.
10 The objection is sustained. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the -- what the
11 witness said -- and I'll read it to you. She said: "I never saw or heard
12 if anybody was hit in that street. We were the first and the last to be
13 hit from a sniper weapon..." I have to apologise. Not sniper, but sniper
14 weapon was mentioned. So that's correct.
15 So I repeat: "We were the first and the last to be hit from a
16 sniper weapon on that street. I know that because my husband is a
17 military commander, and he knows the details."
18 In your question, it says -- it says that you knew about certain
19 details about various incidents, sniping incidents, because your husband
20 named as being that of a military commander, et cetera, et cetera. The
21 witness testified that on the basis of the knowledge of her husband, she
22 knew that she was the first and last to be hit by a sniper weapon on that
23 street. That's the testimony; nothing more, nothing less. Would you
24 please be precise, again. Apart from that, it takes a lot of time from
25 your time of cross-examination. But if you are more precise, I mean when
1 I can reread it, you can do it as well.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. But I thought that
4 this was a procedure to follow, but I will be more precise.
5 Q. Madam, how did it happen that your husband could know the details
6 of the facts that you were the only ones, the first ones ever to have been
7 hit if he was not a military commander?
8 A. My husband did not know about this. And the spot where my
9 daughter and I were hit, wounded on that day, this was a safe line, safe
10 area to walk in. And this was where we went, not just us but other
11 citizens of Sarajevo. We walked there safely in this particular
12 location. And I'm talking about this location, I'm not talking about the
13 next 20 metres to the left or to the right, backwards or forwards. I'm
14 talking about that particular location, that spot. We were the only ones
15 hit there. I'm not talking about the location where there were other
16 cases, 15 metres from there, 15 to the left, 15 to the right, or 50 to the
18 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. I am just going to quote
19 you: [In English] "[Previous translation continues]... now about this."
20 [Interpretation] Did I understand correctly from quoting you now?
21 A. I'm not talking about any --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is not about precision.
23 Mr. President, I'm sorry to waste time, but this is about precision.
24 Q. Witness, you said on the 15th of November that your husband knew
25 very well about the details because he held certain functions. Did you
1 make this declaration?
2 A. If you believe that his employment, his place of employment, is a
3 function, then I suppose that's all right.
4 Q. No, madam, that was not my question. You said on the 15th of
5 November that your husband knew about the details because of his
6 function. I am just asking you whether you stated this on the 15th of
7 November, and I'm going to ask you the question incessantly, if need be.
8 A. I believe that, because of the nature of his work, he probably did
10 Q. So, madam, could you tell us now why, because of his work, he was
11 able to know these things.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. Again, I think if the full
14 paragraph from which Mr. Piletta-Zanin has been quoting the witness's
15 statement back to her, if that full paragraph were put to the witness, I
16 believe that that may help avoid this confusion.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe this
18 is going to be a waste of time, but if it's necessary, I'm going to read
19 the whole page. But I was only working on the quotations that were said a
20 moment ago and that you yourself had read, and I was hoping I would get
21 some answers. The question was: How could her husband know certain
22 things if she said that there was no relationship between the military and
23 the police? So I believe that I have a right to some answers from this
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Taric, could you tell us whether the position of
1 your husband would provide you with any information as to whether other
2 people were shot by sniper weapons approximately at the location where the
3 incident took place? So that is to say, what you did say about it in
4 1995, was that based to some extent on the knowledge of your husband?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. May
7 I remind you that you usually take six lines to explain why you don't want
8 to waste time and then put a question of one line. If you would just, in
9 quoting, be precise, without indicating that you are very precise at this
10 moment, and why you are very precise, and why it is nevertheless a waste
11 of time that you are precise. If you would just come to the point,
12 leaving out any unnecessary additional remarks. If you would please do
13 that. And you now may continue, and I may remind you that the
14 cross-examination took five quarters of an hour until now.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN:
16 Q. [No interpretation]
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 Q. [No interpretation]
19 JUDGE ORIE: There is no interpretation in English.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. We're very sorry, but one of our sets is
21 obviously out of order. We have already drawn the attention of the
22 technicians, of the engineers.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have -- no, we have no sound.
24 THE INTERPRETER: One of the headsets -- one of the interpretation
25 sets is out of order.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Since we have a technical problem, we'll have the
3 break a bit earlier.
4 Mrs. Taric, we have a technical problem. We can't hear the --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One, two. Three. Can you hear now,
6 Your Honour? One, two, three.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we can hear that. It has been fixed, so we will
8 continue for a couple of minutes.
9 Would you then, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, resume after my little
10 crusade, and put the question to the witness.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, it was the witness who was
12 speaking, but I will repeat my question.
13 Q. I believe you were just explaining to -- defining what the labour
14 obligation means.
15 A. The labour obligation is work that you do if there is a war.
16 Under very difficult conditions, we were trying to preserve some vital
17 things, such as education, to keep them going so that the instruction
18 could go on. As I am a teacher, my duty was to go and work at my
20 Q. You mentioned schools. Were there schools open and did the
21 children go to them?
22 A. Yes, but instruction did not take place in school buildings; it
23 took place at other, safer places.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Last question, Mr. President.
25 Q. Madam, you spoke about front lines a moment ago. Do you know, to
1 your knowledge, whether there were trenches along those front lines?
2 A. I was not there.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I just consult with my
4 colleague, please?
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
8 Q. My very last question: Did you report your incident to the
10 A. After I was -- after my daughter and I were wounded, we were
11 extended help in the hospital. What kind of procedure they used, what
12 kind of reporting procedure they used, I know nothing about that, but I
13 and my daughter, after we left the hospital, were issued the so-called
14 discharge document, which is the finding, the doctor's findings, and how
15 to go about our further treatment.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no other questions,
17 Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] I see. No other questions.
19 Now the Prosecutor. Do you have any questions, any further
20 questions to ask of this witness?
21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we will have a couple of lines of
22 questioning for re-direct examination.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to see whether we'll have the break now
24 or not. Any additional questions by the colleagues, then?
25 I think it will be better to have the break now. I might have
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 some additional questions as well, not knowing yet what your questions
2 will be. We'll then adjourn until 11.00.
3 Mrs. Taric, there will be a short questioning after the break. It
4 will not be very long, presumably.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:
11 Q. Mrs. Taric, Mr. Piletta-Zanin earlier read you part of your
12 statement of November 12, 1995. I'm going to read you a full paragraph
13 from that statement, and I'm going to ask you if you recall making that
14 statement to the investigators on that date. Do you understand?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. This is what it says in your witness statement dated 12 November,
17 1995: "I never saw or heard that anybody was hit in that street. We were
18 the first and the last to be hit by a sniper in this street. I know that
19 because my husband is a military commander, and he knows the details. I
20 learned later when I was in the hospital that within one hour, five
21 persons were hit by sniper fire in that area, but not in the street.
22 These people were taken to the same hospital. This was also reported on
24 Mrs. Taric, do you recall making that statement to the
25 investigator on 12 November, 1995?
1 A. Yes. Objection. The way in which the first sentence has been
2 formulated, according to my statement, and the translation perhaps is not
3 the proper one.
4 Q. By that answer, I assume you're referring to the phrase in which
5 it indicates, "my husband is a military commander...."
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I'd like to focus your attention on the latter part of that
8 paragraph, wherein you stated that you learned later while in the hospital
9 that other persons were shot by sniper fire in that area. Do you remember
10 saying that to the investigator?
11 A. Yes, because I met those people in the hospital.
12 Q. And when you met those people in the hospital, did you speak with
13 them about the location where they were when they had been shot?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recall speaking to them about the specific location where
16 they were in relation to where you and your daughter were shot on that
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you recall approximately how close to the location where you
20 and your daughter were shot these other individuals were shot?
21 A. One lady, perhaps in the same direction, in front, she was hit
22 some 50 metres away from us. The other two individuals were to the right
23 of that lady. But from our spot, they were approximately -- within a
24 radius of 50 metres, I would say.
25 Q. And in your statement, you made reference to five other people.
1 Do you recall where the remaining two people were, approximately, in
2 relation to where you and your daughter were shot?
3 A. As I know the neighbourhood, the area, I could know judging by
4 what they said, but I wasn't on the spot. I wasn't there, so I can't tell
5 you the exact location, the exact spot. But the woman who was hit, I do
6 know almost exactly the spot because there was a building where it said
7 "Nolit" and it was in front of that building, as she was going into her
8 own hallway, into her own entrance. That's where she was hit.
9 Q. Yesterday in response to a question that I put to you --
10 MR. MUNDIS: And Mr. President, this is at page 78, lines 7
11 through 9. Unfortunately, I don't have the paginated version.
12 Q. But yesterday at 1.16, Mrs. Taric, you said: "After the incident,
13 we found out that the bullet had come from the other side, from the top of
14 the hill, and the street in question is Ozrenska Street."
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember saying that yesterday?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you testified, "we found out," do you recall from whom you
19 found that out? How did you come to know that the bullet came from
20 Ozrenska Street?
21 A. As the bullet came on my left-hand side, those were the lines, up
22 there in the hill. That's where they were.
23 Q. I understand that, Mrs. Taric. My question is more directed at
24 how you found that out. How did you come to know that?
25 A. From individual talks, talking to people when they came to visit
1 us in hospital.
2 Q. Do you remember if that information also came from the other
3 individuals who you spoke with at the hospital that had been shot in the
4 same location on the same day?
5 A. They are of the same opinion.
6 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Taric.
7 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions,
8 Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. As
12 some new points were quoted by the Prosecution, do we have the right to
13 ask the witness one question?
14 JUDGE ORIE: If it's one question on an issue not touched upon by
15 the Prosecution in its examination-in-chief, I would allow it.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President,
17 that being the case.
18 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
19 Q. Witness, you have just answered a question concerning your
20 admission to hospital, where you met a certain number of people who were
21 equally wounded, and my question is the following: Do you know the names
22 of the persons you met on that particular day at the hospital?
23 A. No.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 Mrs. Taric, I have a few questions as well to you.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: But before putting a question to you, Judge
5 Nieto-Navia also has a question.
6 And perhaps, Madam Registrar, could you please prepare for my
7 questioning already map P3105.
9 Questioned by the Court:
10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You said that your husband was working at the
11 MUP, M-U-P. What's that? What's the MUP?
12 A. The Ministry of the Interior.
13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The Ministry of the Interior?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: What does he do there?
16 A. He's a crime inspector.
17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Before the war, during the war, and after the
19 A. Yes. From 1978, he's been doing that job.
20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could, please, the Exhibit P3105 be put on the ELMO.
22 Mrs. Taric, yesterday Mr. Mundis asked you whether the "X" in the
23 middle of the yellow line that you've drawn indicates the location where
24 you and your daughter were shot, and your answer was yes.
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Looking at the map, the "X," is that a red "X" which
2 is just above the name of a street which - I don't know whether I
3 pronounce it well - is Ivana Krndelja?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please follow with me from that "X" to the
6 right, approximately five, six centimetres, where it says "Miljacka." Do
7 you see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you now - you're pointing at it. That's
10 fine - go back with me again to the left, to the cross, the red
11 cross -- the red "X," I have to say. Could you please change the --
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: When I follow the yellow line to the left from that
14 "X," it seems to be in the river Miljacka, and the "X," the red "X,"
15 seems to be where a street crosses the river. On the photos and videos
16 we've seen, I've seen two roads crossing, but I did not see a bridge or a
17 river. Would you please explain to me whether the red "X" is actually put
18 in the right position, and if so, what could explain that I see no river
19 on the photographs or on the video. I'm just trying to clarify an issue
20 which is not clear to me.
21 A. Yes. If you look at the map, there is -- from this street towards
22 the river, there is just one narrow street. It is -- actually, the map
23 is -- seems to show something there, but it is the Omladinsko Setaliste,
24 or youth promenade, and then the River Miljacka. So that on the
25 photograph itself, and on the videocassette, the Miljacka River is not
1 that close.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So you're saying the map is not quite correct and not
3 detailed enough?
4 A. No. The map's a good one, but the Obala 27 Juli, the 27th of July
5 Street, is a street which is located to the right of the Miljacka. When I
6 moved leftwards from the "X," when I went left, Dolac Malta, I crossed the
7 Miljacka at Cengic Vila and crossed over to the other bank, the opposite
8 bank of the Miljacka River, and then moved along Vojvode Radomira Putnika
9 Street. And in between the 27th of July Street and the Radomira Putnika
10 Street is where the River Miljacka flows past. I hope I have been able to
11 explain that properly now.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just trying to read again your answer, but
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin is --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I do
15 apologise for interrupting. But one of the problems that we have with the
16 photographs are to be able to visualise it all properly. I don't know if
17 we could put it to the test now and to show the photograph again so that
18 we can --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm questioning the witness at this moment. Of
20 course, you could have raised the same issue. But perhaps it's good that
21 we again show you the 360-degrees photograph and that you indicate on that
22 photograph where the river would be. That might take a second to...
23 Yes, we have the -- oh, it's just on the screen. Could perhaps
24 the 360-degrees photograph be turned slowly. And would you please say
25 "stop" at the moment where you can identify the river or the street
1 crossing the river.
2 A. Stop. May I speak?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
4 A. The river can't be seen because if from the spot I was standing
5 you look down the street, straight down the street, straight on, straight
6 ahead, the Miljacka, the River Miljacka, according to my assessment, here
7 we have the first building, the second building, and then down there,
8 that's where the Miljacka River would be. So that the photograph could
9 not comprise the Miljacka River as well.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Would that mean that you had crossed the river
11 already when the incident took place?
12 A. No. If we look at the map, my movement from Hrasno going down
13 Brace Ribar Street, and it is the yellow line.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I found it, yes.
15 A. Hrasno, Brace Ribar Street, the whole of that street is Brace
16 Ribar Street, and then it continues on to Ivana Krndelja Street, which is
17 the street I was wounded in.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 A. So the Miljacka River is a little further off.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You were approaching the Miljacka River when the
21 incident took place, or did you go towards the Miljacka River or were you
22 moving away from it?
23 A. No, no. I was moving in the same direction.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 A. And when I crossed, I would have arrived in the same street and
1 the same building to fetch the textbooks, the school books, had I gone on
2 another few metres.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then crossing the river to collect the
4 textbooks or...
5 A. No, I didn't cross the river. I didn't cross it. May we look at
6 the map again, please, a few more minutes. Let's take another look at the
7 map. Hrasno, Brace Ribar Street, and then I reached Ivana Krndelja
8 Street. The river remained to my right, remained on my right.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just ask you: The Ivana Krndelja Street, is
10 that -- I have to change to the transcript.
11 Yes, I see that the yellow line on the map goes in the direction
12 of what is indicated on the map as the Miljacka River. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And then -- so if you are going in that street, you
15 went in the direction of that river, of the river?
16 A. No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: What direction? Because it looks as if you would go
18 in the direction of the river when we follow the yellow line. You see,
19 the yellow line goes up to the point where the red "X" is, which seems --
20 A. The "X'd" spot was the spot I was wounded. Now, the yellow line
21 indicates the crossing over the Miljacka River. When I went to hospital,
22 I crossed over the river to go to hospital. When I was taken to hospital,
23 that's when I crossed the river.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So you had not yet crossed the river when the
25 incident took place. You're still on the Ivana Krndelja Street?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. No. Yes, I mean. That's right.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How far away were you, approximately, from the
3 river at that time?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Actually, the interpreter is not quite sure
5 whether that was a "yes" or a "no."
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your first answer. I said
7 you were on the -- were you still on the Ivana Krndelja Street when the
8 incident took place?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And you were approaching the river, going into the
11 direction of the river?
12 A. No. It's a straight road. It doesn't go towards the river. I
13 apologise. May I say the following: The 27th of July Street, the Obala
14 27 Juli, 27th of July Street, then we get Ivana Krndelja Street, cuts
15 across, which means that it is further away from the Miljacka, whereas the
16 27th of July Street is right by, alongside, the Miljacka River.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it was further away from the river than the
18 Obala 27th July Street?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers.
21 Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would seek your leave to ask some
23 further questions of this witness. It may be that I could ask some
24 questions that would throw some further light on what you have, I think,
25 correctly identified as an issue. Therefore, I would seek the opportunity
1 to ask those questions, with a view to clarifying the apparent
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then, of course, the Defence would have the
4 opportunity to ask any additional questions. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
5 Mr. Ierace will put some questions to you on the same issue.
6 MR. IERACE: I ask that the witness be shown Exhibit -- I think
7 it's P3268, which comprises two photographs, and might the witness also
8 retain the map.
9 Further examination by Mr. Ierace:
10 Q. Madam, please look at the two photographs, in particular, the one
11 which has the "2" on it in a circle. Do you have that photograph in front
12 of you?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could it please be put on the ELMO, please.
15 MR. IERACE:
16 Q. Do you see on that photograph you have drawn the position of the
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In other words, you have identified that intersection as the one
20 where you and your daughter were shot?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you notice that the photograph is looking up Ivana Krndelja
23 Street towards, having regard to your evidence, the direction of the
25 A. Ivana Krndelja Street is a straight street. Number "1" indicates
1 my movements, and that is Ivana Krndelja Street.
2 Q. All right. And is the street in photograph 2 also Ivana Krndelja
4 A. Yes. Ivana Krndelja Street is the street where I walked down.
5 Q. And where you were shot?
6 A. This place, this part -- I don't know the upper part of the
7 street, what the upper part of the street is called, but the street I
8 moved along is Ivana Krndelja Street.
9 Q. All right. Now, you have given evidence that, as you look at
10 photograph 2, you crossed the street behind the barricades from right to
11 left; is that correct?
12 A. And moved on the left-hand side, walking straight.
13 Q. Do you see where you've placed the barricades in that photograph,
14 photograph 2?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You've told us that you crossed the street behind the barricades,
17 and as you emerged from the protection of the barricades, you and your
18 daughter were shot; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. Now --
21 A. I apologise. This is part of the pedestrian crossing.
22 Q. All right.
23 A. Pedestrian lane.
24 Q. In any event, as you look at that photograph and you look further
25 away from the hill from where you were shot, do you agree that you cannot
1 see the Miljacka River in the photograph?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Now, please, look at the map and look at where you placed the red
4 cross. Do you see that you have placed the red cross at the beginning of
5 a bridge going over the river? Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Now, having regard to the answers you just gave me to
8 my early questions, do you agree that the cross marks a different position
9 from the position in the photographs that you identified as where you were
11 A. May I say that the precision of the map and the photographs was
12 not something I measured, but as I knew the image, I marked the spot, to
13 the best of my recollections, the exact spot. Now, quite possibly, on the
14 map, because of the scale of the map, there has been some slight
16 Q. All right.
17 A. That is to say, the closeness of the Miljacka River and the actual
18 spot I was in. But this is the exact spot and it is the right street.
19 Q. Okay. Now, would you please take a blue marker, and first of all,
20 would you look carefully at the map, and in particular, at Ivana Krndelja
21 Street. And having looked at that street on the map, can you first tell
22 me if you can identify the part of the street where indeed you were shot.
23 A. As far as I remembered, I did mark it exactly, to the best of my
25 Q. Except, as you've already agreed, the spot you marked is at a
1 bridge going over the river. Do you see that?
2 A. Yes, but precision -- the precision of the map -- perhaps there's
3 just a little discrepancy between the map and the picture, but I did try
4 and locate and mark the exact spot.
5 Q. All right. No one's suggesting that you didn't do your best.
6 Would you please look at photograph 1.
7 A. Possibly.
8 Q. All right. Look at photograph 1, please.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And do you see that on that photograph, the position where you
11 were shot was very close to a T-intersection on Ivana Krndelja Street?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Please look back at the map. Do you see the map shows only one
14 street on Ivana Krndelja Street, which is a T-intersection, that is, with
15 the stem of the "T" facing west?
16 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the map to the left --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President. I
18 see several intersections in the shape of a "T" with the road, so the
19 question seems to me to be very imprecise.
20 MR. IERACE: I'm happy to rephrase it, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
22 MR. IERACE: All right.
23 Q. Now, do you see that, having regard to the position of the river,
24 that the view of Ivana Krndelja Street in photograph 1 is looking away
25 from the river? Do you see that?
1 A. I'm sorry. Could I have -- could you repeat the question,
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and could we perhaps have the photo 1 on the
4 ELMO at this moment so that we can see whatever the witness points at.
5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. This was just precisely
7 what I wanted to say, is that we did not have a photograph.
8 MR. IERACE:
9 Q. Having regard to your earlier evidence, the barricades that you
10 have marked on photograph 1 are in Ivana Krndelja Street; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In other words, one can view, in photograph 1, the end of Ivana
13 Krndelja Street, that is, the intersection beyond the barricades that you
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have to object,
17 Mr. President. It is absolutely not certain that this photograph can show
18 the end of the street, and this question is suggesting that there
19 is -- that you can see the end of the street, and this is not acceptable
20 for the Defence.
21 MR. IERACE: I'll rephrase it again, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
23 MR. IERACE:
24 Q. Do you see that to the right of the barricades and immediately
25 before the barricades, there is a street going off to the right? I'll
1 rephrase that again. I apologise. Do you see that just before the
2 barricades, there is a street going off to the right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In other words, the photograph shows a T intersection because
5 there is not a street going off to the left?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Please look at the map. Having regard to your earlier evidence --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please put the map on the ELMO.
9 MR. IERACE:
10 Q. -- are you able to identify that particular intersection on the
11 map? And please take your time.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please find the road just indicated by
13 Mr. Ierace as going to the right. But before doing so,
14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. What I would like is for
16 us to be extremely precise. If there is no street coming from the other
17 side, then there cannot be a T junction. It could be a letter L. So we
18 would then have the same letters [as interpreted]. But there must be two
19 streets going off.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does not agree with your conclusion.
21 Mrs. Taric, Mr. Ierace just indicated a road on picture 1 going to
22 the right. Do you remember that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate on the map where that road
25 is. Take your time and find it. You don't have to hurry.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can recall, I'll show it
2 to you now.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please indicate that on the map.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this is -- if this is the answer,
5 then I'll show you the direction that I was walking in. Map is one thing,
6 but here we can see an intersection on the map where several streets are
7 crossing. And on the photograph is the actual spot where there is no
8 intersection of these streets. In fact, the photographs are slightly
9 further away from the Miljacka River.
10 Logically speaking, it means that the photograph and the map are
11 not quite on the same location because the photographs are from the scene
12 of the incident, and this is perhaps what is bringing confusion because
13 there is no intersection as it is on the map. But if I'm saying the exact
14 direction of my movement, of the direction that I was walking in, perhaps
15 that could clear up the map and the photograph.
16 Yes, it happened in Ivana Krndelja Street, the spot that I marked
17 with a cross. I may have possibly not have been totally precise about
18 where I marked the cross on the map. The photographs are correct, because
19 of the scale of the map, but I will mark it again. I will show it again.
20 From Hrasno, I was going along the street which is in the other
21 direction, not the direction I was walking in, the Brace Ribar Street. So
22 I arrived -- this is the beginning, not the end, of Ivana Krndelja
23 Street. Ivana Krndelja continues on.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't seek to ask any more
25 questions. I rely on the last...
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, any additional questions on this issue?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm sorry,
4 Mr. President, but we are going to have to have the 360-degree photograph
5 just to clarify these things. Thank you, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... on the ELMO under
7 "Computer Evidence." Please proceed.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Now, madam, you just said that the photographs 1
11 and 2 that you were just shown did not correspond to the indications, the
12 markings, that you've put on the map in relation to the incident. Is that
14 A. No, that is not right. The photographs are the spot. They are
15 the spot where the incident happened. So this is just a slightly smaller
16 scale than the map.
17 JUDGE ORIE: May I just -- Mrs. Taric, so what you tell us is that
18 whenever there would be any imprecision in the marking of the red "X," at
19 least the place indicated on the photographs is the exact place of where
20 the incident took place. That's what you have told us?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
24 would like to see the 360-degrees photograph, Mr. President, if that is
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's on the screen. If you push the right button,
2 it's under "Computer Evidence." I see -- you found it,
3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No Interpretation].
5 JUDGE ORIE: I have got it when I push the button "Computer
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm not sure we have the same
8 thing. But I have it on the other screen, but it's fine. Thank you.
9 Thank you very much. Yes, we have it now.
10 Witness, so that we can locate the spot, I would like to ask the
11 technicians to zoom slightly out, because I believe that there were
12 some -- to the right, please. No, not the back zoom, in the other
13 direction, please, zooming in. And then slightly to the right because I
14 believe that there was a traffic sign. See if you can go -- zoom in a
15 little bit, please. A little bit further. A little bit further until the
16 actual sign, road sign, is visible. I believe this is a traffic sign.
17 Could we locate...
18 I don't know if we have the same thing on our screens.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there it is again.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now try
21 and focus on this road sign, please, which we can see in front of us.
22 Yes, a little bit further so that we can actually -- so it becomes
23 legible. If it's not possible, then obviously not.
24 I think this is a road sign. Could we go -- could we zoom in.
25 Could we go a bit further. I don't know whether this is possible
1 technically, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the technician can hear us, so could you please
3 zoom in as much as possible.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, please. Could we focus on
5 the traffic sign unless it is not legible.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be zoomed in even more. Yes. Yes. I don't
7 know whether it becomes any better legible, but what I see is a triangle
8 and a circle on the traffic sign. It doesn't bring me any further.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I don't think that we
10 will be able to read what is on the sign.
11 Q. Simply, Witness, if we can go back to the image that we had on our
12 screens before, which was showing the street when it was at the beginning
13 of this presentation, please.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Please, for the technical
15 booth, is it possible to have the same image that we had at the very
16 beginning of this presentation of this image. No, that wasn't it. Here
17 it is. Thank you.
18 Q. Witness, we now know which one is the main street. Just so that
19 we make absolutely sure of the situation, could you tell us the name of
20 the area, the mountainous area, that we see in the background of the
22 A. You mean down there?
23 Q. I'm talking about the centre, the middle of the screen. You can
24 see some elevations, some hills in the background perspective of the
25 photograph. What is it?
1 A. I don't know.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. No
3 further questions.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the record, could it be said that
5 the camera -- that the image that was visible on the screen at the time
6 that Mr. Piletta-Zanin asked his question depicted the street Ivana
7 Krndelja - and I apologise for my pronunciation - looking approximately
8 north up that street. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you agree that it is north? Because it's...
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a lot of
11 trouble finding my way around in everyday life. But when I look at the
12 360-degree photograph, then it's even worse. But if the witness is not
13 certain about the names of the areas around, I'm not sure myself.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is that you do not agree that it was
15 north, since you are not able to orient yourself.
16 Then for the record, the image at that time shows an apartment
17 block on the left with some green interrupted striping. It shows a
18 high-storey -- approximately 12-, 13-storey apartment block on the
19 right-hand side with red striping on it --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 12. 12.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And in the background, we see some elevations. And I
22 do understand that Judge Nieto-Navia has another question.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes, just to clarify this problem. Using the
25 360-degrees photograph, we see the traffic lights.
1 A. Yes. Yes, we can see it now.
2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: [Previous translation continues]... on that
3 street, the one close in there?
4 A. Straight, the street road, I don't know what it is called. But
5 the street to the left is Ivana Krndelja Street. By the traffic lights to
6 the left, that's Ivana Krndelja Street.
7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You don't know the name of the other crossing
9 A. No.
10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: This, then, concludes your examination as a witness.
12 To start, I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague,
13 which is a very long distance for you, and you were in an environment --
14 I see that there's some manipulation on the screen at this moment
15 not ordered by me or by anyone else. So I would urge whoever is at the
16 technical booth not to show any images on any screen unless it has been
17 ordered by the Trial Chamber or has been agreed upon by the Trial Chamber
18 to have it asked by one of the parties.
19 So I'm sorry for this interruption. I thank you very much for
20 having come to The Hague. It must have been a rather strange environment
21 for you. You well understand that, for all the decisions we'll have to
22 take, it's of vital importance that we get the information from those who
23 have been at the places and at the times where Mr. Galic has been charged
24 with offences. Thank you very much for coming. I wish you a safe trip
1 And please, Mr. Usher, would you then guide Mrs. Taric out of the
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [The witness withdraws]
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: We have to decide on the documents that have been
7 tendered into evidence. Apart from, I would say, the more or less routine
8 documents, as far as the previous statement of the witness has been
9 tendered into evidence, both in the English version and the B/C/S version,
10 the Chamber will admit into evidence those pages where the text can be
11 found as far as the army commander is concerned.
12 Since the Registry has not been provided yet with copies, would
13 you please, during the next break, provide copies of these particular
14 pages which Madam Registrar will then receive the number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: D35 for the statement in English, and D35.1 for
16 the B/C/S translation.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I understand the limited purpose for
19 which this document is being admitted, but the Prosecution would ask that,
20 in lieu of the sole page, that the entire document, which is only three
21 pages - a cover page, the page in question, and the final page -
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. MUNDIS: - that that entire document be admitted rather than
24 simply part of it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So it has been -- is there any specific reason why
1 you want to have any extra -- I mean, the issue was about the military
3 MR. MUNDIS: Again, I understand that, Mr. President. It's simply
4 for issues of completeness rather than simply admitting part of a
5 statement but not the entire statement.
6 JUDGE ORIE: This is a position different from the position taken
7 before by the Prosecution.
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MR. MUNDIS: We'll withdraw the objection, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, Madam Registrar, I think let's, then,
11 resume at the Prosecution exhibits. That would be, I think, the video,
12 and 360-degree photograph.
13 THE REGISTRAR: The video will be P3280I; the 360-degree
14 photograph, P3279H; the set of two photographs, P3268; and the map, P3105.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And then I think we have another Defence Exhibit.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The report, two-page, D36.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 Mr. Mundis.
19 MR. MUNDIS: And of course also, Mr. President, there were the
20 medical records which have been previously admitted but which pertain to
21 this witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Also, just to answer a previous query of the Trial
24 Chamber: I sent an e-mail to the investigator with respect to audio
25 and/or videotapes taken of the interviews with this witness, and I've
1 received a message back that confirmed what I previously stated, that is,
2 there are no existing -- or no tape recordings of those statements were
3 actually made.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your information.
5 I think we are then at a point where the Prosecution could call
6 its next witness.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will be taking that witness. It is
8 Mensur Jusic. It relates to -- the evidence relates to incident number 24
9 on the first schedule of the indictment. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jusic, first of all, welcome into this courtroom
14 far away from your home. We are quite grateful that you have come to The
15 Hague. If you are examined as a witness -- you understand me?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a little louder, please. If
17 the interpretation channel could be a little louder.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is that better, Mr. Jusic?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I spoke a few words of welcome to you, especially for
21 coming to The Hague. You'll be examined as a witness in this courtroom,
22 and the Rules require you to make a solemn declaration. The text of that
23 declaration will be given to you by the usher, and would you then -- I
24 would then invite you to make that declaration.
25 WITNESS: MENSUR JUSIC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. You may be seated. If you
5 would please come a bit closer, perhaps, to the microphones so that
6 everyone can hear you well. You will first be examined by Mr. Ierace, who
7 is counsel for the Prosecution.
8 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Examined by Mr. Ierace:
11 Q. Sir, would you please tell the Trial Chamber your full name.
12 A. My name is Mensur Jusic.
13 Q. And your date of birth?
14 A. 7th of July, 1957.
15 Q. Sir, before -- I withdraw that. In 1992, were you living in
17 A. Yes, I was.
18 Q. What was your occupation in early 1992?
19 A. I worked for Sipad company, which was engaged in the production
20 and sale of furniture around the world, and I was engaged in the
21 department which dealt with the export of furniture to Scandinavian
23 Q. And indeed, do you have some -- a degree of working knowledge of
24 English, the English language?
25 A. Yes. Yes, I could use English.
1 Q. All right. During the armed conflict in Sarajevo, at one stage
2 were you a member of the Bosnian army?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Until what time?
5 A. Until the end of 1993.
6 Q. What did you do after you left the army?
7 A. In early January 1994, I was hired by the Ministry of Foreign
8 Affairs of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is where I still work.
9 Q. Did that involve you working within the city of Sarajevo?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. During 1994, were you living within the city of Sarajevo?
12 A. I was.
13 Q. When you travelled between your home and your workplace, did you
14 sometimes walk?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you sometimes use public transport?
17 A. At the time, when there would be a truce signed for the city of
18 Sarajevo, then the trams would start working, and during such periods of
19 time, I used the tram as a means of transportation.
20 Q. Did you have any concerns as to your personal safety in choosing
21 to travel by tram?
22 A. Yes. There was always a certain unease, certain misgivings,
23 certain apprehension, fear, that something could happen on my way to my
24 place of work and back.
25 Q. Why, having regard to that concern, did you sometimes choose to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 travel by tram rather than, say, walk?
2 A. The danger involved in going to work -- well, it is difficult to
3 really say what was -- what presented a bigger danger, whether walking to
4 work or taking a tram. Possibly I thought that if a truce had been
5 agreed, a ceasefire had been agreed, and then a tram, which is a means of
6 public transportation, that it would not be targeted. So in that sense, I
7 thought that perhaps the danger was lesser, and of course it took you less
8 time and you were less exposed; you spent less time in an open space if
9 you used some means of transportation.
10 Q. During the armed conflict, were there any occasions when, whilst
11 you were on a tram in Sarajevo, shots were fired at the tram?
12 A. Once I was an eyewitness to the fire opened on a tram, when I was
13 lightly wounded myself, and I also eyewitnessed an attack on a tram, not
14 the tram that I was in but a tram which was somewhere near my tram, coming
15 from the opposite direction.
16 Q. I will first ask you some questions about the incident when you
17 were wounded. What date was that?
18 A. It is difficult for me to give you the exact date, but it could
19 have been late spring/early summer, so June, perhaps June, 1994.
20 Q. What time of day was it, approximately, when you got on the tram?
21 A. I had finished my work. I finished doing what I was doing
22 sometime around 1700 and I boarded the tram which was nearest to my
23 workplace, and the incident then could have happened some ten minutes
24 before or after 5.00 p.m.
25 Q. Where were you going when you got on the tram?
1 A. I was on my way home.
2 Q. What clothes were you wearing?
3 A. I had a pair of jeans on and a T-shirt.
4 Q. What road were you on when you caught the tram?
5 A. I boarded the tram across the building of the Presidency of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is Marsal Tito Street.
7 Q. Is Marsal Tito Street a street that runs approximately parallel to
8 the Miljacka River, in an east-west direction?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did the tram you boarded travel from east to west or from west to
12 A. It was going from east to west, that is, from the centre of the
13 town towards Ilidza, and that is the east-west direction.
14 Q. Approximately how many people -- I withdraw that. You've told us
15 that whilst you were on that tram, the tram was shot at. At the time that
16 there was shooting, whereabouts on the tram were you?
17 A. I was -- it is an articulated tram, and I was in the first part,
18 in the first carriage, at the rear door of the first carriage.
19 Q. You say that it was an articulated tram. Did it have two or more
20 than two components?
21 A. Two.
22 Q. Approximately how long was it after you boarded the tram that
23 there was shooting?
24 A. Six, seven to maybe ten minutes.
25 Q. Approximately how many people were there on the tram at the time
1 of the shooting?
2 A. There were not many passengers. I'd say 15 to 20.
3 Q. You've told us that you were in the first carriage at the rear
4 door. At the time of the shooting, were you seated or standing?
5 A. I was standing, yes, right at the door, not on this stair down. I
6 was on the platform, but I was standing right next to the door.
7 Q. If you could just imagine being in the tram and facing the
8 direction in which the tram was travelling, were you to the left of the
9 carriage or the right of the carriage or somewhere in the middle?
10 A. I was standing, if I understand your question, I was -- if we look
11 at how the tram moves, then I was on the right-hand side of the tram in
12 the direction of the movement of the tram.
13 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber, when you say there was shooting,
14 exactly what happened.
15 A. I felt a powerful impact of a bullet against the tram, that is,
16 one shot, something like a small explosion. I mean less intensive
17 explosion. And I noticed right behind me a person who was with a little
18 boy, and I saw blood. At that moment, I could not see which one of the
19 two of them was bleeding, but there was quite a lot of blood. After that,
20 I felt that I had also been hit in the shin of my right leg. And I
21 noticed a young woman, who was standing to my right, about a metre away
22 from me, not further than that, that she was also bleeding from her arm.
23 Naturally, the situation was quite dramatic. The passengers
24 reacted in a very natural manner. We all went down to the floor in the
25 tram. There were no further shots. There was this one shot. And what I
1 can say, too, is that I smelled the gun powder in the tram. The tram
2 continued moving. It did not come to a halt. And for another kilometre
3 when it reached a stop, a stop called Pofalici. That was my stop,
4 actually because I lived there. And it stopped at a place which is
5 screened by a school, that is, there is a school there and a church. So
6 that that part of where the tram came to a stop, it was screened off by
7 these two buildings from the positions of the Serb army on Grbavica. And
8 I simply had enough wits about me to try to see the exact place where the
9 tram had been hit, and I observed that bullet - I do not know what kind of
10 a weapon it was fired from - but it had hit that tram. If we were talking
11 the direction of the movement of the tram, that bullet hit the left side
12 of that tram and some 10 centimetres beneath the window in the rear part
13 of the first carriage of that tram.
14 Q. All right. Now, I take you back to the time of the shooting. You
15 told us that you were standing near the rear door of the first carriage,
16 and that placed you on the right side of the tram. Which way were you
17 facing at the time of the shot?
18 A. I had my back to the direction from which the bullet came. I had
19 my back to whatever place that bullet came from.
20 Q. When you said that there was a woman to your right, about a metre
21 away, who was bleeding from her arm, I take it she was a metre further
22 back down the tram, a metre further away from the front of the tram. Is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You said that --
1 A. Yes, that's right. But if I may say, she was not a woman. I
2 think she was quite young, that is, a young woman.
3 Q. You said there was a person with a young child. What was the sex
4 of that person who had the child?
5 A. That person was a female, that is, of female sex, and the child
6 was of the male sex.
7 Q. Approximately how old was the child, if you are able to recollect
9 A. It was a very small child; two, three years of age.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown an
11 exhibit. Excuse me. Perhaps Exhibit Number P3110.
12 Q. Sir, did you make a statement with the assistance of an
13 investigator from the Prosecutor's office at the Tribunal on the 13th of
14 November, 1995?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. At the time that you made that statement, did you make the diagram
17 which is to your right at the moment on the ELMO in order to better
18 explain the positions of various people in the tram at the time that the
19 shot was fired?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would you please explain the relevance of the number "1" which you
22 placed in a circle in red ink on the diagram.
23 A. Number "1" indicates the place where I was standing in the tram.
24 Q. Does the arrow indicate the direction in which the tram was
1 A. No. This arrow indicates the direction -- or rather the place
2 where the tram was hit by the bullet. That is the spot -- the place of
3 the impact, if you mean this side here.
4 Q. Yes, I apologise for that. I think there are two arrows on the
5 diagram. You have just --
6 A. Oh, yes. Now I see this other arrow. Yes. It was not on the
7 screen at the time when I looked at it first. Now I can see there are two
9 Q. And does the arrow - that is, the black arrow - indicate the
10 direction in which the tram was travelling? And by "black arrow," I mean
11 the one to the left of the diagram as it appears on the screen.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jusic, if you look on the ELMO, you will see the
13 colours better than you see on the screen. The usher will explain to you
14 where it is. If you look to the right on this machine, that's the
15 original so you can --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- better see the colours.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The arrow which is dark and which is
19 parallel to the tram, this arrow here, is indicating - excuse me - is
20 indicating the direction in which the tram was travelling.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. All right. Now, can you please indicate where the driver was
23 seated. That is, the driver of the tram.
24 A. Well, the driver was sitting in his seat, which is at the very
25 front of the tram.
1 Q. I think on the diagram you have placed a symbol to indicate the
2 position of the driver. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Have you also drawn some lines to indicate where the two carriages
5 joined? And if so, could you please indicate those. Could you please
6 point to those lines.
7 A. Yes. It's this place here.
8 Q. You indicated a position halfway, approximately, along the length
9 of the train -- the tram.
10 Have you also indicated four doors on the tram?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Please point to those, one after the other.
13 A. This is in the front part of the tram. There are two doors. This
14 is the first one. This one is the second. And in the latter part of the
15 tram, there are, once again, two doors, here and here.
16 Q. I take you back to the numbers that you have placed in red ink on
17 the drawing. What does the number "2" signify?
18 A. Number "2" signifies the place where the young woman was standing,
19 about which I had told you had been wounded in the arm.
20 Q. And the number "3"?
21 A. And position "3" is the place where the lady was sitting, and next
22 to her, her little son.
23 Q. I think you said earlier that the red arrow indicates the
24 direction of the bullet. Does it also indicate the point at which the
25 bullet entered the tram, approximately?
1 A. Yes. It is pointing at the place of impact. There are the
2 windows, and some ten centimetres underneath these windows, it hit the
3 plate or -- I don't know what the tram is made of. But at any rate, it
4 hit this metal plate of which the tram is made of.
5 Q. You told us that at the time that the bullet hit, you heard an
6 explosion and you smelled gunpowder. Had you previously had any
7 experience of impacting bullets being accompanied by the smell of
9 A. No, I did not have any experience with such a bullet, with this
10 small -- I mean, something small -- well, I don't know. What is a small
11 explosive device? I don't really know what that is, but I've never had
12 experience with such a small explosive device before. That was the
13 experience, for instance, I gained from rather large shells.
14 Q. You said that the woman who was accompanied by the child was
15 covered in blood. At any point were you able to determine whether either
16 or both of them were injured as a result of this incident?
17 A. I never communicated with these people until I came to the
19 Q. Were you able to form an opinion as to whether the bullet remained
20 intact or not after it entered the carriage?
21 A. I wouldn't know that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, it's just two minutes past 12.30. If
23 you'd find a suitable moment to interrupt your examination so that we can
24 have a break.
25 MR. IERACE: It happens that that is a convenient time,
1 Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. We'll then adjourn until 10
3 minutes to 1.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, I do apologise for starting late, but
7 there were good reasons, in relation with this trial, that kept us out of
8 the courtroom for a couple of extra minutes.
9 Mr. Ierace, you were standing.
10 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. An update on tomorrow
11 morning. I propose to call Zoran Lesic following the completion of this
12 witness's evidence. I anticipate he will still be cross-examined -- still
13 be in cross-examination by the end of today's proceedings.
14 The statement prepared by Zoran Lesic is nine pages in length.
15 The English version was disclosed to the Defence on the 26th of November,
16 2001, the B/C/S version on the 17th of January, 2002. Much of the
17 nine-page statement is highly technical in nature. I propose that,
18 unusually, in relation to this witness, I tender his statement. That
19 will, of course, also save a lot of time in relation to his
20 examination-in-chief. If this course is acceptable to the Trial Chamber,
21 I could have made available to the Trial Chamber this afternoon copies of
22 his statement so that they could be read before he gives his evidence. I
23 anticipate that evidence-in-chief beyond the contents of his statement
24 would be very brief.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, any observations, apart from the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 time of calling the witness, also on the procedure suggested by
2 Mr. Ierace?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for giving me the
4 floor, Mr. President. I should like to ask the Prosecution to give us a
5 copy of the document for us to be able to check through it. As for the
6 timing, I know that it will be brief -- that the time is brief, and I
7 don't know whether we'll be able to prepare ourselves by tomorrow, but
8 we'll do our best.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think I'd like to hear your
10 opinion about where usually prior statements are not admitted into
11 evidence, it is the suggestion that this would be different as far as
12 Mr. Lesic is concerned.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't think that would be
14 acceptable, Mr. President, if that was what you were referring to. I
15 don't think that is acceptable. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please give the reasons why it would not be
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I admit that I
19 don't hold in my head the whole of the document or anything that would
20 help me refresh my memory. So I would like to see what the document is,
21 what it contains before it is tendered and admitted into evidence. That
22 is the least that can be done.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you still want to consider your
24 position as far as the admission of evidence is concerned; and not having
25 the content clearly in your mind at this moment, you would rather not take
1 any decisive position. In these circumstances, I think this Chamber will
2 deliberate this afternoon on whether tomorrow would be a good time to hear
3 Mr. Lesic and, at the same time, we'll then hear from the Defence as soon
4 as possible, whenever possible, even this afternoon, on whether rereading
5 the text of the prior statement of Mr. Lesic would lead to any final
6 conclusions as to the acceptance of the procedure suggested by
7 Mr. Ierace.
8 Yes, Mr. Ierace.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the spirit of accommodating the
10 Defence, an alternative course would be for the Prosecution to call
11 Mr. Lesic early next week. I note that we are not sitting on Friday.
12 That would give the Defence some three days, at least, to familiarise
13 themselves with the statement's contents.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please communicate your position this
15 afternoon to the senior legal officer. Yes. Thank you.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll hear from the Defence this afternoon, and
18 we'll see tomorrow how we proceed.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: After having conferred again with my colleagues, the
21 Chamber is of the opinion that the examination of Mr. Lesic could take
22 place better in the beginning of next week instead of tomorrow. Since I
23 do understand there's no problem in calling him, would you please keep
24 that in mind in the order of calling your witnesses.
25 Mr. Ierace, I think we could continue the examination-in-chief of
1 the witness Jusic. Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the witness.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 THE COURT: Mr. Jusic, my apologies for not addressing you right
4 away. I'm doing some technical things. The examination by Mr. Ierace
5 will now continue. Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
6 MR. IERACE:
7 Q. Sir, what was the time, approximately, that the tram was shot?
8 A. As I said earlier on, approximately 1700 hours.
9 Q. What was the weather at that time, the state of the weather?
10 A. The weather was nice. It was sunny. It was daylight. It was a
11 calm summer afternoon. A summer atmosphere prevailed.
12 Q. What was the nature of the road at the time the tram was shot?
13 And by that, I mean was the tram at that point travelling across a part of
14 Marsal Tito Street which had no intersection at all, or was there an
15 intersection, or what?
16 A. From the point that I boarded the tram, the tram passed one
17 intersection, one crossroads. And the incident I'm testifying about took
18 place at the next largest intersection, the biggest crossroads in the city
19 of Sarajevo, actually.
20 Q. What roads comprise that intersection? What are the names of the
22 A. The street which cuts across vertically across the path the tram
23 was taking is called Trscanska Street.
24 Q. At that point, and having regard to your evidence that the bullet
25 entered the left side of the tram, was any part of the other side of the
1 confrontation line in view?
2 A. No.
3 Q. At that time, that is, in June of 1994, were there confrontation
4 lines around Sarajevo separating the opposing armies?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was the side of the confrontation line -- withdraw that. Was one
7 side of the confrontation line occupied or at least defended by the forces
8 of the Bosnian government army?
9 A. Could you repeat that, please.
10 Q. Was one side of the confrontation line defended by forces of the
11 Bosnian government army?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was the other side defended by the forces of the Bosnian Serbian
15 A. I don't want to enter into the terms you used, which army as
16 referring to the armies, but yes, it was defended.
17 Q. What army did you understand was on the other side of the
18 confrontation line, that is, the side other than the Bosnian government
19 army side?
20 A. I consider that they were members or parts of the forces of the
21 former Yugoslav People's Army, and part of the Serb people armed by that
22 army and equipping them with the military materiel and equipment that
23 belonged to the army of the former Socialist Federal Republic of
25 Q. Did you form an opinion as to the source of fire that hit the
2 A. Could you say that again, please. Could you repeat the question.
3 Q. Did you arrive at a personal opinion as to where the bullet came
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Where was that?
7 A. The bullet could have come from the positions or parts of Sarajevo
8 which are called the Jewish cemetery, the Jewish cemetery area, or it
9 might have been another area surrounding the Jewish cemetery on the slopes
10 of a mountain which is called Trebevic. So from that general area.
11 Q. From the part of the tram line where the bullet entered the tram,
12 was it possible to see those two areas?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. On what side of the confrontation line at that time was that part
15 of the Jewish cemetery?
16 A. Roughly in the same direction frontally, if I can put it that
17 way. More or less frontal, that was the position of the Jewish cemetery
18 with respect to the tram, or thereabouts. Slightly more diagonally,
20 Q. Was the Jewish cemetery area at that time under the control of the
21 Serb forces or the Bosnian government forces?
22 A. I wasn't in the area myself during the war, not actually in that
23 area. But according to the information I have, that is the area in which
24 the forces of the army were located, that is, to say the military forces
25 which perpetrated the aggression on the town, surrounded the town and
1 asserted the aggression on the town.
2 Q. At that time, were the parts of Trebevic that you referred to also
3 under their control or under the control of the Bosnian government armed
5 A. Part of the defence towards Trebevic, the lower zone, was under
6 the control of the forces of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas
7 the upper slopes, the upper reaches, apart from the lower area, which was
8 the Jewish cemetery area, was under the control of the forces which had
9 surrounded the town of Sarajevo and those which shelled Sarajevo.
10 Q. Which forces controlled that part of the lower area which included
11 the Jewish cemetery area at that time, as you understood it?
12 A. I'm not sure that it could have been the forces of the government
13 of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time in that area. Quite possibly, if I am
14 looking in the direction that the tram was moving, they might have been a
15 little more towards the east, bearing in mind the configuration of the
16 terrain, the houses, their height. There is a bypass road, a road which
17 was specifically constructed for trucks to be able to exit the city, and
18 it is above that road that the Jewish cemetery is located. Now, I'm not a
19 military strategist so I can't say for sure. I don't know the positions
20 exactly but I don't think it was possible that those forces were directly
21 below positioned there, that is to say, the forces of the Bosnian
23 Q. At the time that the tram received the shot, were there any
24 military vehicles in the area?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Was there anyone on the tram at that time that you saw carrying a
3 A. No, not then or at any time did I see any uniformed persons in the
4 tram or persons bearing arms.
5 Q. You told us that when the tram finally pulled up at, as it
6 happens, your stop, you got off the tram. What did the other people on
7 the tram do at that time?
8 A. Some of the passengers got off at the same stop, and I assume that
9 some passengers -- it's difficult for me to answer, to say, because they
10 were split-second moments, and you don't pay much attention to things like
11 that. But I did notice where the bullet entered. I looked around the
12 tram, went round to see, and saw the entrance hole made by the bullet.
13 Q. Did the tram proceed on past your stop at that point? In other
14 words, did you see the tram move on?
15 A. Yes. The tram moved on.
16 Q. Did you seek any treatment for your injury?
17 A. Yes. Nearby there was an emergency infirmary, and I went to them
18 for help.
19 Q. When you say "an emergency infirmary," do you know who operated
21 A. The medical staff belonging to the emergency department, that is
22 to say, people who were trained medical personnel, and there were also
23 some civilians who had been trained medically and were part of the
24 emergency first-aid service.
25 Q. All right. Now, you've mentioned that there was a second incident
1 involving a tram that you witnessed. When was that?
2 A. That was also sometime in the spring of 1994, or perhaps -- not
3 much time went by between those two events. They were quite close to each
4 other. Whether it was June or July, I can't be sure, but they followed on
5 in rapid succession.
6 Q. All right. And whenever it was, I think you said that it
7 involved -- I withdraw that. Whereabouts were you at the relevant time?
8 A. I was -- the tram I was riding in from town, after I had finished
9 my work, at the end of the working day, stopped at the Pofalici stop. I
10 got off the tram, and at that particular point, when I stepped down from
11 the tram, you could hear a terrible burst of gunfire, and I heard
12 shattering and the sound of bullets hitting metal and ricocheting and
13 hitting the asphalt, and I automatically ran across the road to take cover
14 by the building opposite.
15 Q. Were you able to determine, having regard to the sound, the
16 general direction from which the gunfire had come?
17 A. The gunfire had come from the direction of Grbavica, across the
18 bridge, the Brotherhood and Unity Bridge. That's what the name of the
19 bridge was at that time, the Bratstva-Jedinstva, Brotherhood and Unity
21 Q. Which forces occupied Grbavica at that time?
22 A. The forces that occupied the city of Sarajevo and which attacked
23 the city of Sarajevo and shelled the city of Sarajevo.
24 Q. Do you mean by that the Serb forces, if I could call them that?
25 A. Yes, the Serb forces.
1 Q. All right. Now, what is the -- first of all, on what street was
2 that tram stop, Pofalici?
3 A. At the time, the name of the street was Vojvode Putnika Street.
4 Q. Was the stop at an intersection, or not?
5 A. The stop was located just after the intersection, as you crossed
6 over, just after the level crossing.
7 Q. What other streets formed that intersection?
8 A. The street and the bridge were called Bratstva-Jedinstva. It was
9 Bratstva-Jedinstva Square and Bratstva-Jedinstva Bridge, and the street
10 that cuts across that street from the direction of the city was called, at
11 the time, Vojvode Putnika Street.
12 Q. Do you recall what the state of light was at the time you heard
13 the gunfire? In other words, was it night, was it day, or was it
14 somewhere in between?
15 A. It was somewhere in between. It wasn't quite dark yet. Dusk,
16 twilight. Not day either.
17 Q. Now, having heard the burst of fire, what did you do?
18 A. I had got off the tram I was in and I ran towards the building
19 that was opposite the street. I crossed the street, then there was a
20 grassy patch, and then there was this building which was some 50 metres
21 away from the bus stop. On my way to the building, I saw a girl.
22 Q. Please take your time. How old was the girl, approximately?
23 A. Nine, ten years old, perhaps.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just need some time to come at ease,
25 please tell me, Mr. Jusic.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I think I'll be able to
2 continue. I can go on.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you think you're not able to continue,
4 please let me know. And I'll ask, then, Mr. Ierace to continue the
6 Please, Mr. Ierace.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right. I can continue.
8 The girl was 9 or 10 years old and I saw her crawling along the
9 street. I took her up in my arms and took her through this passageway
10 between the building in front of us, and she was wounded. I took her
11 through that passageway, carried her through. And we found a car
12 somehow. I don't know whose the car was or which car it was, but there
13 just happened to be a car. And the first-aid station was only 300 metres
14 away, so I asked the driver to take the little girl to the emergency
15 station, because she had been wounded, and I never knew what happened to
16 her after that. I never had any contact with that little girl again. I
17 don't know what happened to her or what became of her, how seriously
18 wounded she was, whether she was that seriously wounded or not. I just
19 don't know. But the car took the little girl to the emergency station.
20 MR. IERACE:
21 Q. At the -- from the time that you were pulling up to that tram stop
22 until the time you left it, did you notice, first of all, anyone wearing a
23 military uniform in the area?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you notice anyone carrying any weapons?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you hear or see anyone returning fire from around that area?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you notice any other trams in the area?
5 A. The next day I was in contact with some other eyewitnesses of that
6 event, and I realised then that the shooting was targeting a tram coming
7 from the opposite direction that I was going in. There was another tram
8 which crossed my tram.
9 Q. Did you --
10 A. And what I learnt from the people who were there on the spot -- it
11 was this other tram that was being fired at, not the tram I was actually
12 in. Now, what happened to that tram, what the consequences of that
13 shooting were, I don't know.
14 Q. Did you see any other adult in the vicinity of the girl at the
15 time that you first saw her? Apart from yourself, of course.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you remember what clothing she was wearing?
18 A. She was wearing some children's -- light children's clothing. As
19 I said, it was summertime or spring, warm weather. I don't remember the
20 details of what she was wearing.
21 Q. Apart from it being warm, do you remember anything else about the
22 weather, such as whether it was raining or fine?
23 A. It wasn't raining. It was a clear day.
24 Q. Are you also able to give evidence about another incident
25 involving a group of people running across a street, during which someone
1 was shot?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When did that incident take place?
4 A. Well, this could have been early autumn, September, perhaps the
5 latter part of September, in 1994.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, having regard to the indictment
7 period, I don't propose to ask any questions about that incident.
8 Q. Are you also able to give evidence about an incident that you
9 witnessed near the railway station in Sarajevo?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When did that incident take place?
12 A. It is difficult for me to give you the exact time when that
13 happened, the exact date. I can connect this incident to the reason why I
14 was there at that place at all, so I can relate this to the time in early
15 spring 1993. So it could have been February or March 1993.
16 Q. Was it possible it was 1994, that is, early spring 1994?
17 A. I remember that in the first statement that I gave, I mentioned
18 February 1994, but later when I thought about it, I believe that the time
19 when the incident happened was actually one year earlier.
20 Q. All right. Now, on that occasion, where were you when there was
21 some shooting? In other words, when you heard shooting.
22 A. I was in the area of the railway station, of the Sarajevo railway
23 station, the main railway station in Sarajevo. More precisely, at the
24 area where people get out of the station where carriages are parked or
25 engines are parked that are not used, although, of course, the railway
1 traffic -- transport in Sarajevo had stopped some time before that.
2 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown Exhibit P3112. That is
3 the map.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Usher, would you give the map to the
6 MR. IERACE:
7 Q. Mr. Jusic, at the time that you made your first statement, did you
8 also place some markings on a map?
9 A. Yes, on the map that is before me.
10 Q. Did you do that on the 13th of November, 1995?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you have that map, or at least a colour photocopy of it, in
13 front of you now?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you see on that map Brodska Street?
16 A. Yes. Yes, Brodska, Brodska Street, yes.
17 Q. All right. Now, you've told us that you were in the area of the
18 railway station --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, there was another map that you provided
22 the Registry with. I don't know whether you need that at a later stage,
24 It creates confusion.
25 MR. IERACE: In any event, Mr. President, I apologise for that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could perhaps the map be placed on the ELMO so that
2 we can be certain that the right map is...
3 MR. IERACE: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. IERACE: Unfortunately, Mr. President, the ELMO does not do a
6 very good job with colours. I'd be grateful if I could see the map very
8 The witness has the map that I intended him to have,
9 Mr. President.
10 Q. Now, did you mark on that map with a circle around a number where
11 you were at the time that you heard shooting?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. Indeed, did you place the number "1" inside the circle to indicate
14 your position?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Will you tell us what you heard and what you saw when you were in
17 that position?
18 A. I did not hear anything, but I saw a man in Brodska Street, and he
19 fell. He just crumpled to the ground.
20 Q. Did you hear anything at around that time, either immediately
21 before you saw him or after, that is, before or after you saw him crumple
22 and fall?
23 A. The only thing I saw was that this man was obviously hit by a
24 bullet, and he just fell. And I saw two or three people that approached
25 him, and they pulled him away from the spot where he was shot in order to
1 get him some protection and themselves some cover. And the way it
2 happened, the spot was still being targeted, so it was not possible to
3 approach the place. There was a vehicle nearby, a car that wanted to get
4 to the spot and take the wounded, possibly transport the person to the
6 Q. How do you know that the position was still being targeted?
7 A. This could be seen -- I could see -- I could see it on the
8 asphalt. I could see the shooting. It was possible to see this. I could
9 also see it by the reactions of the people that were surrounding the
10 wounded man. This was at a distance for me of about 60, 70, possibly a
11 hundred metres. 50 maybe. I'm not quite sure.
12 Q. Mr. Jusic, when you say you could see it on the asphalt, could you
13 tell us what it is exactly you saw on the asphalt?
14 A. Well, you know, when a bullet hits the asphalt, there is a little
15 bit of dust that goes up in the air. Or it was possible to see it on the
16 grass from the pavement. It was possible to see that there was fire being
17 opened in that area.
18 Q. Was the man who fell to the ground in a uniform of any
20 A. No.
21 Q. Was he carrying a weapon that you could see?
22 A. No, I did not see that he was wearing a weapon.
23 Q. Were any of the two or three people that approached him and pulled
24 him away wearing a uniform?
25 A. I'm not sure, but I don't think they did have anything. I think
1 they were also civilians.
2 Q. Were any of them carrying a weapon that you could see?
3 A. I did not see any weapons. I did not see that they were carrying
4 any weapons.
5 Q. Was there anything about any of them that suggested to you that
6 they were members of a military force?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Were you able to determine the direction of the fire that you
9 observed? In other words, from which direction it came?
10 A. I can conclude from a previous experience I had on that same spot,
11 and I was accompanying my wife's sister at the time, and we lost her as
12 well in the spring of -- about two months later. What I mean is two
13 months before or after that event, I was accompanying her to the hospital
14 at the time. And what we heard, I'm not quite sure whether we were being
15 shot at or there were other targets, but what we heard was the whistling
16 of the bullets, bullets whizzing by. And they went past very close to our
18 And as we took cover under a carriage and we waited for a good
19 opportunity to get out, we did not take that road but we then used a path
20 along -- on the hill. Later on, I could see these were some positions
21 towards the hospital. And we turned and -- and I turned and I could see
22 that from the upper floors of the -- of the skyscraper that was on
23 Grbavica, between this bridge --
24 Q. Could you please point to the map on your right rather than the
25 map on the screen because then we can all see what it is you're pointing
2 A. Yes, this is Grbavica. This is the entire area of Grbavica,
3 Grbavica I and Grbavica II. And in this area up to the Miljacka River,
4 there are four skyscrapers; and the tops of these skyscrapers, from those
5 tops, it is possible to see them from these positions, across the barracks
6 here and the railway station, because the railway station is a little
7 lower down. And then this area is the area of the former Marsal Tito
8 barracks, and they are also a little lower, so it is possible to see the
9 tops of these four skyscrapers. They had about 20 floors in that area.
10 Q. And what colour were those --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, we are at a quarter to 2.00, if you would
12 perhaps finish this part, and then find a suitable moment to interrupt.
13 MR. IERACE: If it's convenient to you, Mr. President, it might be
14 preferable if I was to stop at this point.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Then, Mr. Jusic, we'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this
17 courtroom, and we'll adjourn until then. Tomorrow the examination by
18 counsel for the Prosecution will continue, and then presumably you will be
19 examined by counsel for the Defence. And if there are any additional
20 questions to be put to you by the Judges, that will happen also.
21 So we'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 7th day of
24 February 2002, at 9.00 a.m.