1 Thursday, 7 February 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Ms. Pilipovic, you are standing. Is there any observation you
10 would like to make?
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Good morning.
12 Before we start the cross-examination of the witness, I would like to
13 inform the Chamber that yesterday, at 1800 hours, we received the fax from
14 our learned colleagues by which they informed us, as I understand, that
15 today we would be examining Witness H. However, we were not informed
16 whether the witness who is supposed to come after Mensur Jusic, Witness M,
17 will not be examined today. Could we be informed about the changes in the
18 schedule? And also to inform us whether the witness who is supposed to
19 come after is going to be examined or not. So I'm not sure whether we're
20 supposed to get ready for Witness M after Mr. Jusic. Thank you, Your
21 Honour. And also, I would also like to be informed by my learned
22 colleagues whether we would be getting a schedule of the witnesses for
23 next week. Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please respond, Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, so that we
3 don't waste time - thank you - and also to allow the Prosecution to find
4 out about what they have to tell us, I wanted to give you an answer about
5 the question that you asked me. It's about the translations, the
6 interpretation. Could I do it now?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
9 Mr. President. On page 31, 51 on the French transcript, a question asked
10 by Mr. Mundis, I said, in French, and I'm now quoting in French: "I would
11 have appreciated --"
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you allow me just to change to the French
13 channel so that I can hear you. [Interpretation] Could you now hear me?
14 Could you now please read in French. Thank you.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is what I was doing, but
16 I will do it again. So what I said in French was the following, and thank
17 you for listening in French. I am now quoting: "I would have appreciated
18 a question which would consist of finding out where the shooting was
19 coming from rather than a question asking if the shooting was coming from
20 that location," which appeared to be a leading question, i.e., a
21 misleading question.
22 Now, when I'm looking at the English interpretation of this
23 passage - which is in my English transcript, non-definitive version, but I
24 have it on my computer, and the hour was 13:45:35 - we can see that the
25 translation simply doesn't have one part of what I said, so it's not
2 So the reason why I'm saying this, Mr. President, is that very
3 often there are problems that happen, and it seems that the Chamber quotes
4 me in an incorrect manner, which I was able to check in the French
5 transcript, and I can perhaps check it on the audiotape so that there
6 could be no misunderstanding between us which perhaps come from the
7 interpretation. Thank you very much, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let me just make one remark: A
9 simultaneous translation is very difficult to perform and sometimes,
10 because of the speed of speech and for many other reasons, might cause
11 some imprecision in the translation at the moment. That's especially the
12 reason why all the tapes are still there. I'm always open for any
13 correction in that respect. I thank you for your assistance.
14 What I would like most is that if there's any difficulty in -- any
15 doubt as to whether the translation is perfect or less perfect, to
16 indicate. If it's of vital importance at that moment, please immediately
17 interfere. If it is of minor importance, please write it down. I would
18 say make just a small note and provide it to the Chamber through the
19 Registry so that we can give it to those who assist in working on these
20 transcripts at night.
21 So I would invite you to make a clear distinction between where
22 it's a minor mistake and where it's really of importance for the hearing
23 of the case at that moment. But I thank you. And you know that I am
24 quite sensitive to whatever translation problems there are.
25 Unfortunately, I've got only two languages I can understand.
1 Mr. Ierace.
2 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. The only letter that I'm
3 aware of --
4 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please, Mr. Ierace.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you would have a possibility,
7 because you did read to us in French the lines, those parts of your
8 questions, I would invite you to provide us - I don't know whether you
9 have it at hand at this moment also - but exactly what the English
10 translation was so we also can make our assessment on how defective it
11 would have been. We prefer, as a matter of fact, to have both languages
12 then perhaps printed out so that we can compare it. And we really are
13 interested to see what it is exactly.
14 Now, Mr. Ierace.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, last night the Defence was sent a
16 letter from the Prosecution which consisted of one sentence. It read,
17 "Please find attached a corrigendum to the schedule and corresponding
18 exhibits of Witness H."
19 Is that the letter to which my friend refers?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it is.
21 Is that true? Yes, that's the letter --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am very sorry, but I was
23 trying to track down the hard copies, you see, and I only heard a small
24 part of his intervention. So I'm now going to plunge into the
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that the letter you are
2 referring to is the letter consisting of just one line: "Please find
3 attached a corrigendum to the schedule and corresponding exhibits of
4 Witness H." That's the letter you -- it was Ms. Pilipovic, it was you
5 who --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. In fact, to be
7 absolutely precise, this wasn't a line, it was a sentence with two lines,
8 in fact, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I thank you again for your assistance in clarifying
10 up a major problem. I thought I just indicated to you whether you would
11 make any distinction between important things and unimportant things.
12 Ms. Pilipovic, that's the letter you're referring to. Yes,
13 Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there's no change to the schedule.
15 JUDGE ORIE: There's no change. What's the change?
16 MR. IERACE: Simply that there was an addition to the exhibit
17 for --
18 JUDGE ORIE: So just the exhibits. I indicated to you yesterday
19 that the schedules can perfectly function as giving an overview again and
20 again, and if there's any change, that you also see the order. But if you
21 just put in one witness, then of course it's difficult to find out what
22 exactly -- you have to go through the whole. If the letter would have
23 been, "Please find enclosed a corrigendum," it says, "to the schedule and
24 the corresponding exhibits," and it's just a change -- if all the
25 witnesses were there in the order and say, "This new schedule contains a
1 change in the exhibits concerning Witness H," then it's immediately clear
2 that there is no change in the order of calling the witnesses. And this
3 might be a bit confusing, but this is also one of the unimportant issues.
4 So let's proceed. Unless there's anything else to be discussed at
5 this moment, I would like to have Mr. Jusic brought in.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Jusic. You can hear me?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Well, welcome again in this courtroom
10 this morning. Although it might not be necessary, I'd just like to remind
11 you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you made yesterday
12 as a witness in the examination by Mr. Mundis, it was -- no, Mr. Ierace,
13 by Mr. Ierace. Now continue.
14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I ask the witness be shown
15 Exhibit P3112.
16 WITNESS: MENSUR JUSIC [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]
19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jusic. Yesterday afternoon, you showed us on
20 the map the location of the four skyscrapers from which you believed fire
21 had originated which resulted in a man being shot in your view. Would you
22 please point out again the approximate location of those four
24 A. In this area around here, there are these four skyscrapers.
25 Q. Would you please take a black marker -- I'm sorry, a blue marker
1 and place a circle over the approximate position of those four
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Do you see on the map the intersection where the tram on which you
5 were travelling received a round?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you please mark that with a cross.
8 A. [Marks]
9 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MR. IERACE:
12 Q. Sir, just going back to the circle that you placed around -- that
13 you placed in the approximate position of the four skyscrapers, I notice
14 that you have placed a circle around what appears to be three symbols of
15 perhaps buildings. Is that correct?
16 A. If I can be -- if I can just say: I know roughly all the
17 buildings in that area that go along the Miljacka River.
18 MR. IERACE: I ask that the witness be shown Exhibit P3644.
19 Excuse me, Mr. President.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. IERACE: Yes. Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Jusic, would you please look at the map that you are about to
23 be handed, and would you first of all locate on that map, if you can, the
24 railway station. There's no need to point to it at this stage.
25 MR. IERACE: Perhaps that could be placed on the ELMO, the
1 relevant portion.
2 Q. Please point to the railway station. Don't mark it. Do not mark
3 it; just point to it.
4 A. [Indicates]
5 Q. All right. Now, on that map, could you indicate the position of
6 the four skyscrapers that you described yesterday.
7 A. [Indicates]
8 Q. All right. Would you please place a circle around the four
10 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't this the original map? Please, please, please,
12 MR. IERACE: My apologies.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you want to have -- this is an exhibit that
14 has already been admitted into evidence, so if you want any marking made
15 on a similar map, you have to provide a new one to the witness.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps there's another way of doing
18 Q. Having regard to -- would you please compare the two maps in
19 relation to the building -- what appear to be building symbols. That is,
20 go back to the map you've already marked, and is this the position that
21 the four building symbols you have just indicated do not appear on your
22 original map?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Having regard to the circle that you have placed on map P3112, is
25 there any change that you wish to make to the position of the circle?
1 A. No. That is it.
2 Q. Now, would you please --
3 MR. IERACE: I'd that ask, with the assistance of the usher, P3112
4 be placed back on the ELMO and the other map be removed.
5 Q. Mr. Jusic, I think you were in the process of placing a cross at
6 the intersection where the tram on which you were travelling was shot.
7 Have you placed that cross on the map? Please place a cross on the map at
8 the appropriate place, if you can see it.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. All right. Now, you said yesterday in your evidence that, from
11 your observations, there was -- there were two areas which were occupied
12 at the relevant time by the Serb forces, Serb armed forces. One of those
13 you identified as the Jewish cemetery. Can you locate on that map the
14 Jewish cemetery, and if so, could you point to it.
15 A. [Indicates]
16 Q. Thank you. Would you place a blue circle around the Jewish
17 cemetery, and place, alongside the circle, number "1." First of all,
18 place a circle around the Jewish cemetery.
19 A. Around the cemetery itself?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And then alongside it, place a "1."
23 A. [Marks]
24 MR. IERACE: All right. Thank you. Might that be returned.
25 Mr. President, at this stage I ask that the relevant video be
1 shown. It is Exhibit P3279.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to clarify
3 the issue you just raised before we continue.
4 Would it be possible, Mr. Usher -- could you please put back on
5 the ELMO the big black-and-white map.
6 Mr. Jusic, you were asked by Mr. Ierace to point also on this map
7 the skyscrapers. Do you remember that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please look at the map and indicate again
10 the skyscrapers.
11 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
12 JUDGE ORIE: I see you pointing at four relatively small
13 rectangular shapes. Is that correct?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: To the left of these rectangular shapes, I find two
16 bigger shapes which are irregular of form; at least, they're not the same,
17 and they are bigger. Do you see them? Could you please point at what I
18 just indicated, these bigger shapes. Could you point at these, so in
19 order to be sure that you understand exactly --
20 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that one, and to the left, a bit north.
22 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are the four smaller rectangular shapes the
24 skyscrapers you referred to, or are the bigger shapes on the map the
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The four rectangular shapes
2 indicate -- I believe that they indicate that in that area, that those
3 four skyscrapers are indicated on the map as four rectangular shapes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But if it is necessary, I do know
6 this area, and I know the entire area from the bridge, from this bridge,
7 from the bridge of Brotherhood and Unity to the bridge which is Suade
8 Kilberovic Street, or bridge, who was a student of medicine who was killed
9 in the beginning of the war, from Dubrovnik, and this is the name of the
10 bridge. And if you want, I can show you exactly what the buildings are in
11 that area.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you know the area well. Could
13 you please look at the other map again, 3112. And put it on the ELMO just
14 beneath the four skyscrapers. I would like to have them both on the
15 ELMO. If Mr. Usher would put the relevant part, so you have to fold the
16 second map. If you would please give it to me, I'll fold it exactly at
17 the spot I would like to have it folded.
18 A bit lower, Mr. Usher. Yes, that way.
19 Mr. Jusic, do you see now on the two maps approximately the same
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you see the four rectangular smaller shapes which
23 you just referred to as being the skyscrapers, also on the lower map?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Do you see the --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. Could the witness please repeat the
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'll repeat the question quite clear to you. The
4 lower part of the map indicates the same area as the upper map. Do you
5 agree with me that on the upper map there are more shapes than on the
6 lower map?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do. It is more accurate. The
8 upper map is more accurate. And in addition to the four skyscrapers,
9 these three points here, they are skyscrapers, too. These three are
10 skyscrapers, too, about the same size as the other four.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, would you please look at your marking on the
12 lower map. The circle you've drawn, does it with precision indicate the
13 position of the skyscrapers, or could it be slightly different from the
14 irregular forms you have circled around?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This irregular shape here is a
16 low structure, and that is the kindergarten. And next to it was the youth
17 centre. It was called Bosko Buha at the time. And then here are -- this
18 here, after -- these four skyscrapers are here, so I need to correct the
19 circle that I made. This is where they are.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I do see on the map, just for the sake of the record,
21 that you make a new circle a bit to the right of the original circle
22 you've drawn.
23 Thank you very much, Mr. Jusic. The maps can be returned to the
25 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
1 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might we see now the video
2 which is P3280, that is, the relevant portion.
3 [Videotape played]:
4 "INVESTIGATOR: Would you please show me by standing at the spot
5 where, to the best of your recollection, the front of the tram was located
6 at the time the tram was hit while you were riding upon it.
7 I will now mark the spot using yellow spray paint.
8 Could you now please show me where approximately, to the best of
9 your recollection, the bullet hit the side of the tram.
10 I will now mark this spot in the figure "X" with a "1" beside it.
11 Would you now please show me where in the tram, to the best of
12 your recollection, you were seated and the direction you were facing when
13 the bullet hit the tram.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was standing, not sitting.
15 INVESTIGATOR: I will mark this spot with an "X" and a number "2"
16 beside it.
17 Could you please show me where, to the best of your recollection,
18 the woman and her four-year-old son were seated in relation to you.
19 I will mark this spot with an "X" and a number "3" beside it.
20 Could you please show me where the other young woman named Belma
21 was located when the bullet hit the tram, to the best of your
23 I will mark this spot with an "X" with a number "4" beside it.
24 Finally, would you please tell me where, to the best of your
25 recollection, the back of the tram was located.
1 I will mark this line with just a line."
2 MR. IERACE:
3 Q. Mr. Jusic, did you recognise yourself in that video?
4 A. I did.
5 Q. Did you comply with the directions of the investigator truthfully
6 and to the best of your recollection?
7 A. I don't quite understand the question. What do you mean by asking
8 me whether I complied with the directions truthfully and to the best?
9 Q. On the video, we observed that the investigator asked you to point
10 out certain things.
11 A. Yes, I understood what the investigator wanted me to do, to show.
12 Q. When you pointed out those things, did you do so to the best of
13 your recollection?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. And did you do so truthfully?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would now like the Trial Chamber to
19 view Exhibit P3279I. Before it is shown, I should point out that you will
20 note the yellow markings do not appear in those photographs. In due
21 course, there will be evidence to explain that. The photographs were
22 taken three days later; and as luck would have it, during those three
23 days, the road surface was resurfaced. It was also not possible for the
24 tripod to be mounted approximately at the point that this witness
25 indicated the bullet entered the tram. Because of traffic conditions, the
1 tripod was mounted approximately 5 metres further north of that
2 approximate position. Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, once we have received the --
4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think this is
6 a matter of major importance. The Defence still has the same type of
7 objections, all the more so today, because evidently we cannot orient
8 ourselves well in the space. And I also know that there is another
9 problem; I will now verify it. That is the content of the tape was
10 given -- was in the transcript, but I did not hear the witness say
11 yesterday - but perhaps I am wrong - I do not remember him saying that the
12 child who was with his mother was a four-year-old child. But I will check
13 this, and I think that the question which was asked by the investigator on
14 this site made reference to it. But this is a technical problem, and I
15 will check it.
16 Therefore, the Defence objects to the production of this piece of
17 evidence, and we want -- because of what the witness said, I believe, was
18 that the child was two or three years old. In the question, the
19 investigator asked him about the existence of a child of four years. We
20 were not there, so one cannot be objective. This is another technical
21 problem, and I think it is of major importance. Yes, it is a detail, and
22 if I disturbed the Chamber for nothing, then I apologise in advance.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, what's your recollection about as far as
24 the age of the -- I could just look at the transcript, since the wording
25 of the -- used by the investigator are usually also in the transcript.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the relevant part of the transcript on
2 the LiveNote version for yesterday, in English, is page 66, line 25.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please read it.
4 MR. IERACE: Question: "Approximately how old was the child, if
5 you are able to recollect that?" Answer: "It was a very small child;
6 two, three years of age."
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now let's see what the investigator has
8 asked on the video.
9 MR. IERACE: That's page 13, line 8, Mr. President, and indeed --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've found it. Yes.
11 Mr. Jusic, the investigator on the video asks you about the place
12 where a four-year-old child was. Yesterday you testified that the child
13 in the tram you referred to was a very young child, you said two or three
14 years old. While answering the question of the investigator, did you
15 refer, on a question about a four-year-old child, to the same child you
16 indicated yesterday as a young child, two or three years old?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I meant that same child.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
19 Is there anything else at this moment? No. Then please -- yes,
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I was just going
22 to say that there was nothing else.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you may proceed.
24 MR. IERACE:
25 Q. Mr. Jusic, do you recognise the image which appears on the screen
1 at the moment, which is of a church at an intersection?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What intersection is that?
4 A. This is the intersection of the street formerly called Trscanska
5 and now Fra Andjela Zvizdovica, and the street which the tram was taking,
6 and that was the street of Marsal Tito. Now, this whole street used to be
7 Marsal Tito once. Now, whether it is still called that, I wouldn't know.
8 I do not know. But this is the high street, the main street, and that is
9 Marsal Tito Street.
10 MR. IERACE: Please pan the image slowly to the right.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, this is also a moment where I would like
12 to make a remark for all parties. Since there has been manipulation of
13 this 360-degree photograph at a certain moment, without a specific order,
14 you'll notice that those technicians who are manipulating the pictures are
15 now in the courtroom, so that we are in better control. Please proceed,
16 Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, so there be no misunderstanding, the
18 person operating the image at the moment is indeed Zoran Lesic, who is the
19 witness I'll be calling next week.
20 Q. Do we see now another view of Marsal Tito?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. Is the camera -- having regard to your earlier
23 evidence that the street runs east-west, is the camera facing east or
24 west, approximately?
25 A. The camera is facing east.
1 MR. IERACE: Please continue panning the image to the right.
2 Please pause.
3 Q. Having regard to your earlier evidence, is the camera now facing
4 approximately south?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you see on the image the area of the Jewish cemetery, having
7 regard to your earlier evidence?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. All right. Do you see a ridge beyond the mid-ground and, in front
10 of the ridge, two trees with foliage?
11 A. Well, I have a rather hazy image here. Do you mean the slopes
12 here or do you mean these trees in front, at the intersection itself? I
13 didn't quite understand what trees you meant.
14 Q. I'll rephrase the question. Was the Jewish cemetery somewhere on
15 the relatively flat part of the picture or on the ridge part?
16 A. The Jewish cemetery is on a slightly elevated ground, right above
17 the transfers, a transfers road which goes through that part of the city.
18 Q. Towards the centre of the image at the moment, there appears to be
19 a street heading south and some vehicles on that street. Do you see that?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. To the right of the street is a tree; to the left of the street is
22 a taller tree. Is that correct?
23 A. It is.
24 Q. Does the Jewish cemetery appear between the two trees, or
25 somewhere else, approximately?
1 A. Between those two trees.
2 Q. Yesterday you also referred to Mount Trebevic. Do you see Mount
3 Trebevic in the photograph?
4 A. Yes, you can see a part of it. Yes, you can see part of Trebevic
5 slopes, but I think this is the area already towards the restaurant called
6 Osmice. But this picture again is rather hazy. Prior to the -- yes, but
7 yes, you can see the slopes of Trebevic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interfere at this very moment. What
9 button is pushed for the witness? Since I noted that if you push the
10 video button, I get a picture which is far worse than when I push the
11 Computer Evidence button. Could you, Mr. Usher, please check that the
12 witness has the best image in front of him, by just going through the ...
13 It is the Computer Evidence button which gives the best ... But it might
14 be different. Does the witness have the best image now in front of him?
15 Is this a better image, Mr. Jusic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is. It is. Yes, it is much
18 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Ierace.
19 MR. IERACE:
20 Q. Do you now see Mount Trebevic or part of Mount Trebevic?
21 A. Yes. You can see a large part of Trebevic.
22 Q. Do you see that there is a light pole to the left of centre of the
23 image? The light pole appears to be located in the middle of Marsal Tito
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. Do you see that immediately behind the light pole there appears to
2 be a peak on the ridge line?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you able to tell us where Mount Trebevic is in relation to
5 that peak?
6 A. Behind.
7 Q. Do you mean by that behind the light pole?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Is it, in fact, the ridge behind the light pole?
10 A. The mount behind the lamp pole, you can see the outline, the
11 skyline of the Trebevic ridge.
12 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the image to the right. Pause
13 there for a moment.
14 Q. Could you please tell us the name of the building, that is, the
15 high-rise building which appears on the screen at the moment.
16 A. This building used to belong -- at the time of the common state,
17 it was the building of the Government of the Socialist Republic of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time.
19 Q. All right.
20 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the image. Pause there.
21 Q. Are we now looking west along Marsal Tito Boulevard, having regard
22 to your earlier evidence?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the image to the right.
1 Q. Could you please tell us the identity of the yellow building, that
2 is, the yellow squarish -- or at least, yellow building of approximately
3 ten storeys.
4 A. This is the Holiday Inn Hotel.
5 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the image to the right.
6 Please pause and pan back, if you can, or upwards.
7 Q. Do you know the identity of the brownish high-rise building which
8 appears towards the centre of the image?
9 A. This is the UNIS office building. It was a large company. So
10 this is a skyscraper of the once large company called UNIS, U-N-I-S.
11 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the image to the right. All
12 right. And I think we've now completed the circumnavigation of the site.
13 Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you please have it turned still a
15 bit more to the right so we can again have a look at the Marsal Tito.
16 Yes, thank you. That's enough.
17 MR. IERACE: Might the witness now be shown the map which is
18 P3112, and also the photographs which are P32795. Excuse me.
19 Yes, I'm sorry, 3279J.
20 Q. Mr. Jusic, first of all, look at the map. And in particular,
21 where you have marked the Jewish cemetery, may that be placed on the
22 ELMO. Please point to the Jewish cemetery with the pointer.
23 A. [Indicates]
24 Q. Now, in front of the Jewish cemetery, on the map, there appears to
25 be a road running roughly east-west, crossing all of the part of the map
1 which appears on the video. Do you know the name of that road? I'll
2 withdraw that.
3 First of all, could you point to the road that I've just
5 A. [Indicates]
6 Q. Yes. Do you know the name of that road?
7 A. It is -- well, we call it a detour road. It was built -- well,
8 there used to be a narrow track, train. The Cheetah used to go along the
9 Trebevic slope. But when this was discontinued, the road was built. It,
10 in fact, carries freight from Pale to take it out of the town, and this
11 freight train moved along those tracks.
12 Q. Is it sometimes also known as the Transit Road?
13 A. Yes, it is known as the Transit Road.
14 Q. All right. Please look at photograph P3279J. Perhaps that could
15 be marked on the ELMO, in particular the one marked 22A.
16 Earlier you pointed out the government building on the
17 360 photograph. Do you see that building on the photograph in front of
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Please point to it.
21 A. [Indicates]
22 Q. You also pointed out the UNIS building. Please point to that if
23 you see it on that photograph.
24 A. [Indicates]
25 Q. And the Holiday Inn, please point to that.
1 A. [Indicates]
2 Q. Immediately to the right of the UNIS building, do you see part of
3 a road? Do you see that?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Now, do you recognise the road that appears in the foreground of
6 the photograph, that is, the road that runs across the front of the
8 A. Yes. It is a Transit Road. And you used the same term.
9 Q. All right. Now, would you please look at the second photograph.
10 And by comparing the two photographs, do you agree that the second
11 photograph appears to be a telephoto shot of the middle portion of the
12 first photograph, that is, the area just to the right of the UNIS
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you see in that photograph, to the right there is a church?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is this, indeed, a photograph of the same intersection in which
18 the tram in which you were travelling was shot?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In this photograph, and indeed in the intersection, there appears
21 to be a yellow tram. Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How does that tram compare to the one in which you were travelling
24 at that time?
25 A. Well, it is the same direction. It went in the same direction and
1 the same place where the incident took place.
2 Q. All right.
3 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
4 Mr. President, that completes examination-in-chief, and I
5 apologise for taking so long.
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I put one question to you before giving an
7 opportunity to the Defence to cross-examine the witness. Mr. Jusic, if I
8 compare the two photographs of which you said that the second one appears
9 to be a telephoto shot of the middle portion of the first photograph, do
10 you mean that it's just taken from the first photograph, or that it is a
11 new shot of the same spot with different lenses?
12 MR. IERACE: The latter, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your clarification.
14 Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to whom do I give the
15 opportunity to cross-examine the witness? To you, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 Mr. Jusic, you'll be questioned now by Ms. Pilipovic, who is
17 Defence counsel.
18 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusic, good morning. Mr. Jusic, yesterday in
22 response to a question by my colleague about what your occupation was in
23 early 1992, you said you were employed in Sipad.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you be more precise. When you said it was in early 1992,
1 until when in 1992 were you employed in Sipad?
2 A. I worked in Sipad -- well, I am still employed in Sipad
3 Import/Export, but I have been, in fact, hired at the moment to work for
4 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. My employment in Sipad, in fact,
5 never ceased.
6 Q. In 1992, since you said your occupation started in early 1992,
7 were you employed in Sipad? Did you go to work?
8 A. Yes, I was employed for some time, and I used to go to work.
9 Q. You said that you used to go to work there. Can you tell us: In
10 1992, which period was it that you went to work?
11 A. Well, until the end of June 1992.
12 Q. Can you tell us: In which part of the town was your place of
13 employment located?
14 A. In the town centre, in Marsal Tito Street.
15 Q. So until June 1992, you used to go to work there?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us: In 1992, you said that you were working for
18 Sipad until June. Where, and in which part of the town did you live?
19 A. I lived in the part of the city called Pofalici, in an apartment
20 across the Bristol Hotel.
21 Q. Can you tell us why, for what reason did you stop going to work in
22 the month of June? As far as I understood, you went to work until June.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you answer why did you stop going to work?
25 A. At the end of June, I was employed, engaged in the forces of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which were there to defend the city, for reasons of
3 Q. So in June 1992, if I understood you well, you joined the armed
4 forces of the B and H army.
5 A. Well, I wouldn't like to speak of when the army of the B and H was
6 formed. I don't think that it was called like that at the time. I had an
7 accreditation card where it was said "Territorial Defence."
8 Q. When you said you had an accreditation of the Territorial Defence,
9 can you explain this in greater detail? What did that imply, and how was
10 this, in fact -- how did this look in practice?
11 A. Well, I had a card with my photo on it, with my name, surname, and
12 the units, the formation, the organisational form, the military
13 organisational form to which I -- where I was.
14 Q. Can you tell me: What was your organisational form? To which
15 organisational form did you belong? What did it state on your card?
16 A. Well, I don't really remember whether it said "organisational
17 form." I don't think that on those first cards, they didn't have this
18 mentioned; just the name, surname, and some personal information, date of
19 birth, and so on. But I don't think that the organisational form was
21 Q. Can you tell us in what part of the town was your Territorial
22 Defence command post?
23 A. The local centre, Vaso Miskin Crni.
24 Q. Well, that local centre, Vaso Miskin Crni, what municipality of
25 Sarajevo was it?
1 A. It was Novo Sarajevo.
2 Q. Can you tell us in what street was your command post in the Vaso
3 Miskin local centre?
4 A. The name of the street -- of course, it's called differently
5 today. It was called the Blood Donor Street. Today it is called the
6 Kolodvorska Street.
7 Q. Can you tell us about your command post in the Blood Donor Street
8 and now the Kolodvorska Street? In what sort of building was that place
9 accommodated, your post accommodated?
10 A. Well, it was simply a place where we assembled, where we got
11 together, but at the time we had practically no weapons at all. It wasn't
12 a genuine military formation in the true sense of the word and what this
14 Q. Can you tell us in what capacity were you in the Territorial
15 Defence unit? What assignments did you have?
16 A. At the time, there was a questionnaire circulated about who would
17 be prepared to help in procuring first aid in the case of war. Well, war
18 hadn't broken out, but we were just preparing. And I attended a first-aid
19 course, providing the wounded with first aid.
20 Q. Can you tell us: Since you have explained what your role was
21 then, were you aware that in 1992 until -- that a call-up had been -- that
22 a recruitment, in fact, mobilisation, was started?
23 A. Yes, I think so. I think it was publicly announced.
24 Q. Well, can I refresh your memory? Was this in April 1992?
25 A. No, I don't think it was that early. We can speak of mobilisation
1 only following August, after August 1992, as far as I can remember.
2 Q. In other words, you were not aware of the fact that in 1992, that
3 mobilisation had been called, in April?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Since we are discussing the part of 1992 when you joined the army
6 of B and H, and in June you said what your duties were, can we then
7 accept -- and you have already told our learned colleague that until
8 January 1994 you were a member of the B and H army. Can we accept that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell us whether, during that period, until January 1994,
11 was the B and H army constituted, and if so, when?
12 A. I cannot answer that question. I don't know the date when this
14 Q. During that period while you were a member of the B and H army,
15 until January 1st, 1994, what was your duty during that period? What sort
16 of military schedule did you follow?
17 A. Well, later I was in the 102nd Motorised Brigade, which was
18 located in the part of town called Stup Azici.
19 Q. So as a member of the 102nd Motorised Brigade, you were in the
20 section of the town which was under the control of the B and H army, which
21 is the area of Stup and its surroundings?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us: In the part of the city which was under the
24 control of the 102nd Motorised Brigade, where was your command post?
25 A. In the immediate vicinity of Stup. In Stup itself, actually.
1 Q. Can you tell us: In what building was your command post? Where
2 was your command post located? In which building?
3 A. Well, there were some buildings there. There used to be a
4 warehouse, the Sava Kranj warehouse.
5 Q. Can you tell us when the 102nd Motorised Brigade was formed, did
6 you receive a uniform then, and what was your assignment at that time?
7 A. I didn't have any uniform. I didn't have any special assignment
8 except the first aid course activities. And at the time, I had a rifle
9 and 50 -- an M-48 and 15 bullets in my pocket.
10 Q. At the time, when you became a member of the 102nd Motorised
11 Brigade, did you receive armaments, the M-48 rifle, can you tell us, did
12 you have any special identification card when you were assigned to that
14 A. Yes, I was given a new card at the time, where it said "Army," "B
15 and H army." I cannot recall exactly the appearance of the card and what
16 it contained.
17 Q. Well, as a member of the 102nd Motorised Brigade, you had an M-48
18 rifle and you didn't have a uniform. Can you tell us how many people
19 belonged to the 102nd Motorised Brigade? How many people were in that
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Do you know how many smaller formations there were within the
23 brigade, specifically, how many battalions and how many companies?
24 A. Well, I don't have that information. Even at the time, we weren't
25 fully organised according to usual military rules. I know something about
1 this because I had served the former Yugoslav People's Army.
2 Q. Can you tell us who the commander of the 102nd Motorised Brigade
3 was, whether it was a trained officer or --
4 A. I don't know if he was a trained officer.
5 Q. Do you know that the officers personnel of the army, B and H army,
6 and of the 1st Corps, which was on the territory of the city of Sarajevo,
7 that the commanders were, in fact, former commanders of the JNA?
8 A. Some of them were, but I don't know exactly, of all the superior
9 staff there, who had had experience or ranks.
10 Q. Can you tell us, in that particular part of the town where the
11 102nd Motorised Brigade was located, which part of the town did you
12 cover? Where were the front lines, more specifically, in that part of the
14 A. Well, the front lines changed from 1992 until mid-1993 [as
15 interpreted]. The B and H army forces were being [Realtime transcript
16 read in error "expressed"] suppressed at the time, and we had been losing
17 some of the front lines. The first front lines were in Otes, in Livade,
18 in Azici. And subsequently, the lines were drawn up to the very location
19 of Stup.
20 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President; two matters in relation to
21 the transcript. I note that they don't have the symbol that indicates
22 they may be reviewed later. The first is page 30, line 3. It reads:
23 "The front lines changed from 1992 until mid-1993." The translator, I
24 think I heard her say "until May 1993." Perhaps that could be clarified.
25 Secondly, same page, line 4 reads: "The B and H army forces were
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 being expressed at the time." The translation I heard was "forces were
2 suppressed at the time." Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I expect proper care will be taken to those remarks,
4 Mr. Ierace.
5 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Since you have just answered the question about the front lines,
8 if the Defence were to show you a town plan of Sarajevo covering that
9 particular section, could you draw in to the map, into that part of the
10 map where the front lines were, as far as you can remember?
11 A. In that Stup -- well, on the more restricted part, I would be able
12 to do this.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] If the Court pleases, we have town
14 plan which reflects Stup. We would like to show the witness the map and
15 have him mark where the positions were in that section of the town.
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... it's the first
17 time that we have used this map, or is it the big black-and-white or... ?
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the town plan
19 of Sarajevo. And during the earlier testimonies -- testimonies, my
20 colleagues used parts of it. And I copied this to make things easier,
21 more simple. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I think that would get Number 336,
25 because it's another part of the map that has been used before, so far as
1 I understand. Yes.
2 THE REGISTRAR: I'll get the number. D37.
3 JUDGE ORIE: 37. Yes, there was a mistake. I apologise for
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Witness, please take a black marker and indicate on that part
7 of the map where the command post was located and where the front lines
8 were located.
9 A. Command post was somewhere here, about somewhere -- yes, about
10 somewhere here.
11 Q. Can you --
12 A. I apologise. I'm not quite sure. It was a place where the
13 command personnel was, in fact, accommodated. I don't know it was a
14 command post or not.
15 Q. Can you please draw that circle and write Number 1.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be a good moment,
17 Your Honour, to break now because it is time for a pause, I think.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So you'll start with the circle after the break,
19 because I do not see a circle yet on the screen. So do you want the
20 witness to mark it now or to start with it?
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let him draw the
22 circle now and write number "1."
23 Q. Mr. Witness, where you have drawn the cross...
24 A. [Marks]
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn until 11.00. Mr. Jusic, we'll see
2 you then.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the record, Zoran Lesic has now
8 been replaced by Drazen Vitolovic from the video unit to operate the
9 360-degree photograph.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I was just informed by the registry that
11 the limited space in the public gallery in this courtroom could be an
12 obstacle for people who want to attend, to attend this courtroom live
13 instead of on television. I gave the order that when there's still space
14 for a person in the public gallery, and if there is not enough chairs,
15 rather than keeping someone out of the public gallery and provide the
16 chairs somewhere else, rather a chair would be brought in so that the
17 public character of this trial is as much warranted as possible.
18 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. What I
20 wanted to say, that - this is about today in particular - we are very
21 grateful for your remark. Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was informed only a few seconds ago about the
23 specific aspects of the public character of this trial today, and this was
24 the decision I took.
25 Then I think, Mr. Ierace, we could -- oh, yes. I'm afraid
1 that -- no, I'm -- I apologise for not being very attentive.
2 Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed with the cross-examination of
3 Mr. Jusic.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Witness, before the break you indicated and marked for us on the
6 map that's before you the location which was the command post of the 102nd
7 Motorised Brigade. As far as you can recall, could you mark for us on
8 this map the front lines in this area of the city.
9 A. If I can just say: I am not sure whether this was the command
10 post, but this was -- I'm not quite sure whether this was exactly the
11 command post, but if we're talking about the front line, I can say that
12 the last, the last lines, the last front lines, in mid-1993 until about
13 May 1993. That's what I can indicate. Or do you want me to indicate the
14 lines that I found, as it were, when I came to Stup?
15 Q. I want you to mark the lines that you found when you came to
17 A. Now I understand.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness.
19 A. The lines, when I arrived at Stup in October 1992, were about
21 Q. Witness, if you don't mind, could you please take the black marker
22 and make a marking where the front line went.
23 A. At that time -- I can only do it approximately, as far as I know
24 where the line went, where I was. So it was about here.
25 Q. Thank you. So this is the front line where you were. Could you
1 tell us: In that area where you were, at which distance or how far was
2 the front line of the other side? What was -- how far away was the other
3 line? How far were the two lines apart?
4 A. About where the fields are, I presume that this was a rather deep
5 line. I'm not quite sure how far. Here, where the houses were, the line
6 was a little shorter, perhaps in some places as short as 100 metres.
7 Q. So now you told us about the front line where you were, and you
8 indicated the demarcation line, the confrontation line. And yesterday we
9 agreed that this was the line between the BH army and the Republika Srpska
10 army, that the demarcation line was about 100 metres in one part of the
12 A. Yes. In one part of the line where there were houses, there were
13 residential buildings.
14 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us, how long did you spend at the front
15 line? When I'm talking about how long, I mean during the day, during the
16 week. Was it days or weeks?
17 A. When I arrived at the beginning of -- in early October, when I
18 arrived at Stup, we found lines that were practically empty. I presume
19 that the arrival of our unit, which wasn't prepared in any particular way
20 -- we were not prepared for any kind of combat action. We just arrived
21 at this kind of empty area. And if I remember well, this was the time
22 when the BH army had also some units and some parts of units that were led
23 by Juka Prazina. So there were some problems, and then they withdrew from
24 these lines. They were no longer there. And after I arrived, about two
25 or three days later, there was a fierce attack of the Serb forces in that
1 period. And at that time, I was seriously injured.
2 Q. Thank you, Witness. But I would like to just have your answer as
3 to how long -- how much time you spent there.
4 A. I spent there two or three days, and that's when I was seriously
6 Q. Those two days that you were at the front for three days [as
7 interpreted], where did you sleep?
8 A. We slept in the cellars of the existing residential objects,
9 residential buildings. If there were no cellars, then we were just on the
10 ground floor of these houses.
11 Q. When you left the front line to go home, did you have organised
12 transport as members of that unit, the transport to your house, to your
14 A. No. We went individually. We went on foot.
15 Q. Since you just mentioned Juka Prazina, problems related --
16 conflicts related to Juka Prazina's unit, could you tell us whether these
17 units had any specific particular insignia that differentiated them from
18 you as members of the territorial defence and later as members of the BH
20 A. What I said was I did not find any soldiers there. I said I heard
21 that they were there before. I never saw members of those units except in
22 some, in some -- in some particular items that were in the media or on
24 Q. When you saw them on television, did you have any specific
25 insignia [as interpreted]?
1 A. Yes, they had some kind of uniforms. I don't know whether you can
2 call that a uniform. But yes, yes, I suppose they had a kind of --
3 uniform of sorts. Some of them, I'm not quite sure how many there were of
4 them, but some of them had -- some of them had distinguishing uniforms. I
5 don't know whether they were all dressed like that. I'm not sure. I was
6 never in contact with those units.
7 Q. Thank you. Witness, let us return to the location of the incident
8 when you were in the tram in June 1994. Could you be accurate and tell us
9 exactly which day in June that happened?
10 A. I cannot give you an accurate answer to that. The actual date, I
11 cannot tell you. I don't know.
12 Q. You told us that, after being asked by my learned colleague, that
13 the tram was shot at the moment when it was at the intersection of the
14 Marsal Tito Street and Trscanska Street. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you tell us whether in the vicinity of that place there is a
17 tram stop, although we saw the tram was at the intersection?
18 A. No. The stop coming from the direction of the town is further
19 away from the place of the incident, and the following is a little bit
20 lower, a little below. So no, there is no tram stop in that area.
21 Q. Could you tell us -- you told us that you got on the tram near the
22 presidency building?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you were then working there. Could you tell us whether that
25 building, whether that building, while you were working there, your
1 workplace, was there security provided for that building?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Could you tell us whether in that building there were military
4 personnel, in that building?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Could you tell us what is the following stop after the presidency
7 building where you got on the tram?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is there any building -- specific building where the next stop is?
10 A. The following stop is Marin Dvor. And apart from the buildings
11 that we saw on the actual video, the stop is a little further away, a
12 little more towards the east. There are no characteristic buildings,
13 specific buildings. These are just buildings from the Austria-Hungarian
15 Q. In that part where the tram line goes, we have the Holiday Inn
16 building. Is that correct? We saw that building?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The UNIS building?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the presidency building of the Presidency of BH?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know whether the stop after Marin Dvor, is that the Holiday
23 Inn stop?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you allow for the possibility that the tram at the moment
1 when it was shot at, that it was actually at the stop in front of the
2 Holiday Inn Hotel?
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last answer.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jusic, the interpreters could not hear your last
6 answer. I think the question was about whether the tram was at the tram
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. The question was: Would the following stop after the Marin Dvor
10 stop is in front of the Holiday Inn Hotel?
11 A. The stop is not right in front. It is a stop which comes from the
12 direction of Ilidza, from the westward direction. But it doesn't stop
13 directly in front of Holiday Inn, but a little bit further, a little bit
14 to the west. But the stop that comes from the town is also not quite in
15 front of the hotel, but it's some 50 metres away to the west as we go out
16 of the town.
17 Q. When you say west going out of the town, is that a stop which is
18 practically -- if we say that we're going towards the street Zmaja Od
19 Bosne or --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my friend, in fact, misunderstands the
22 question to which an answer was not recorded. The question appears at
23 page 38, line 11 and reads: Would you allow for the possibility that the
24 tram at the moment when it was shot at, that it was actually at the stop
25 in front of the Holiday Inn Hotel? That's the question that requires an
2 For my own part, I did hear an answer, but perhaps the witness
3 could be asked to repeat it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please, because that was the question
5 asked at that very moment.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I think the witness said no,
7 but the witness could answer again.
8 A. I confirm my previous answer that the tram was not on the stop in
9 front of the Holiday Inn. So it's no.
10 Q. Witness --
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 Q. Witness, you told us --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, perhaps we could first instruct the
16 Mr. Jusic, since you are speaking both the same language,
17 sometimes questions and answers come so quickly that the interpreters have
18 difficulties in following it. If you would please look at the screen in
19 front of you, and perhaps wait until the text stops moving, and then
20 answer the question.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. I'm sorry.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to apologise. You're not aware of the
23 problem, perhaps.
24 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I can -- if
1 you'll allow me, now I'm checking the transcript, and the witness actually
2 answered the question saying, "The stop is not right in front," which can
3 be seen on line 21, 11.13. And I believe that he answered with all
4 clarity required. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's my recollection that the witness answered the
6 question, that it was common understanding what his answer was. And that
7 answering one of the questions that were put to him later on, that this
8 answer might be understood as a precision of what he testified before.
9 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Witness, you told us that at the moment when, according to you,
12 the tram was targeted, you were wounded, a young woman who was standing
13 next to you, and a woman with a child that you described yesterday as
14 being two or three years of age. Is that correct?
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: Again, my friend is not putting to the witness what
19 the evidence was. In particular, my friend has put to the witness that
20 his evidence was that a young woman was standing next to him. In fact, my
21 recollection is that the witness said that the woman was standing about a
22 metre away.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Is the distance between the witness and the young woman of any
25 relevance for your later questioning?
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think that there's no misunderstanding. It's not
3 very precise, but --
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The
7 Defence just wanted to identify the persons that the witness saw at the
8 moment they were in the tram, when, according to the witness, the tram was
9 shot. So my question was asked because the Defence would like to have the
10 witness shown a statement that the Defence was given by the Prosecution,
11 and this is the statement by a witness who was in the tram when the
12 shooting occurred.
13 And this statement -- the Defence has this statement in English
14 and in B/C/S. Now, what I would like to show the witness is the part of
15 the witness statement about where the incident happened. Now, if I'm
16 looking at the statement of this witness, written statement of this
17 witness, the female witness and this witness that we're hearing today,
18 there is a difference in the description of the location in the Marsal
19 Tito Street about where the incident happened.
20 Your Honour, this is the statement by Belma Likic. This is the
21 young woman who was standing nearby the witness on the day in question
22 when the incident happened. And with your permission, this is the Belma
23 Likic statement, Prosecution document, page 2, 00360838. Now, the Defence
24 would like to show the witness this statement, the part of the statement
25 which is just about one line, paragraph 3 of the statement, and we would
1 like to ask the witness about this so that we can be precise about the
2 location of the incident.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If it's just about one line, could you please read,
4 then, that line and indicate to Mr. Jusic that you are reading -- I'm
5 already indicating it to him at this moment.
6 Ms. Pilipovic will be reading one line of a statement.
7 But, Mr. Ierace, I see you're standing on your feet.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we weren't given any forewarning that
9 my friend was going to do this. I think my friend said she has an English
10 copy of the statement. Perhaps she could make that available to us while
11 she reads the line. Thank you.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please ...
14 Ms. Pilipovic, are you -- you're going to read it in the original
15 language, I think at least the original language of the person who gave --
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your
18 JUDGE ORIE: It could just be given, for information purposes, to
19 the -- please give it to Mr. Ierace.
20 Mr. Jusic, Ms. Pilipovic will now read a very limited portion of a
21 statement given by someone else on the same incident. Would you please
22 listen carefully to this line read by Ms. Pilipovic but which is a portion
23 of a statement of another person.
24 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Witness, this is a portion of a statement given by a girl who was
2 in the tram together with you. This is paragraph 3 of this statement. It
3 begins with the words, "The incident..." "The incident happened in front
4 of the Holiday Inn Hotel, at the intersection with the street Franje
5 Rackog Street."
6 Witness, would you allow for the possibility that the incident
7 happened in front of the Holiday Inn Hotel, at the intersection with the
8 Franje Rackog Street and Marsal Tito Street, or the incident happened at
9 the intersection of the Trscanska Street and the Marsal Tito Street, which
10 is what you told us today?
11 A. I am absolutely certain in the statement that I gave, and I think
12 I can support this by the following: The tram, in its continued movement,
13 had to cross the street which is parallel to it, going to the left, and I
14 remember very well that all of us who were present and had fallen on the
15 floor of the tram, all of us who were there -- because this is a very
16 sharp manoeuvre that the tram has to perform, and we -- it was very hard
17 for the tram to turn. So it was a lady who was a tram driver, and the
18 tram continued moving. So it cannot be that the incident happened after
19 this, at the following intersection. I'm absolutely certain of it.
20 Q. Thank you, Witness. Witness, you told us a moment ago that at the
21 moment when you heard the shot, the tram gained speed and turned right.
22 Can you tell us what street was it that the tram took when it turned
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the -- my friend might put to
1 the witness precisely what he said in that regard. I don't have any
2 recollection of it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you -- could you please give us the -- yes,
4 please proceed.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will rephrase my
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Witness, at the moment of the incident, when the tram -- as you
10 said, you went down to the ground; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. And then you said the tram accelerated.
13 A. Well, the tram went on moving. [Realtime transcript read in
14 error: "Q. And then you said the tram accelerated. Well, the tram went
15 on moving."]
16 Q. Can you tell us: In which direction did the tram continue to
18 A. I already said earlier that the tram was to cross the street which
19 runs parallel with the tram tracks to the left. You asked me about the
20 right turn, but I spoke about the left turn, and you can see it well on
21 the screen.
22 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. And this turn that you said --
23 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interfere, just for the sake of the
24 record. At 11:30:13, which is page 44, line 14, after the first sentence,
25 which reads: "And then you said the tram accelerated." It continues:
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 "Well, the tram went on moving." It's my recollection that it was the
2 witness who said: "Well, the tram went on moving." And then your
3 question, Ms. Pilipovic, continues: "Can you tell us: In which direction
4 did the tram continue to move?" So the middle part of these two and a
5 half lines was spoken by the witness.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So again, Mr. Jusic, part of these problems are
9 caused by a too-quick questioning and answering of the questions. So I
10 know it's very difficult to concentrate on your screen while you are
11 answering questions, but if you could do it, please.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Witness, can you tell us: At which stop did the tram come to a
15 A. The tram came to a halt at the Pofalici stop.
16 Q. Can you explain to us which street was -- in which street was the
17 tram in with reference to Marsal Tito? That is, which street did the tram
18 take to move towards the Pofalici area?
19 A. This is called Zmaja Od Bosne. The earlier name of the street was
20 the street of Vojvode Putnika.
21 Q. So you are telling us that the tram went on moving down the Zmaja
22 Od Bosne Street; is that it?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
25 like the witness to be shown the map. Although the Defence has a part of
1 the map of the city of Sarajevo, which shows the streets accurately to see
2 which was the route of this tram, with your leave, I would like to ask the
3 witness to trace the movement of the tram on that critical day and to
4 explain to us where -- which did the -- which turn did the tram take to
5 move towards Pofalici.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Would you have this done on P3112 or do you have an
7 extra map for it?
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is that same map
9 except that it's another section. It is a part --
10 JUDGE ORIE: You made copies of that part of the map as well.
11 Yes, please proceed.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will, Your Honour.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given the number D38.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please -- oh, is it on
15 the -- let me just have a look. Yes, I see it's on the screen. Could we
16 move in -- zoom in exactly at that spot so that we get more detail. The
17 place is -- perfect. Yes, please. That's enough, I think.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Witness, on this map that we have here now, can you tell the
20 Chamber and the Defence and my learned friends -- could you, for us, mark
21 the place where the tram was at the moment when you say it was shot at.
22 A. Yes, I can do that. How do you want me to mark it?
23 Q. You can put here a small black circle.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Can you now draw a line using that same black marker. Can you now
1 trace the movement of the tram and its arrival at the Pofalici stop so
2 that we can could see which route you took.
3 A. This black line here represents, in fact, the tracks. So we are
4 following the tram tracks. This is a street and this is the spot where
5 the tram crosses the street, cuts across the street, then moves on, passes
6 by the former Marsal Tito barracks, then cuts across this intersection.
7 This was called Bratstva-Jedinstva Street. And on passing the economic
8 school and passing the intersection, the tram then comes to a stop. So it
9 did not stop at the stops which are here and here. It missed two stops,
10 and the first stop it actually made was in Pofalici.
11 Q. Witness, do I see right that the train came to a stop in Zmaja Od
12 Bosne Street? Is that correct?
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... further to the
14 right, yes, so that we can better follow. Yes.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
16 Q. Witness, are you telling us that Pofalici is a place where you
17 marked, and that is on Zmaja Od Bosne Street? Is that correct?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. Can you, Witness, show on the map -- show on this map that you
20 have before you -- can you mark Pofalici. Will you identify Pofalici.
21 And which is the last stop in Pofalici?
22 A. How do you want me to mark this stop?
23 Q. Witness, if you can, will you just put a circle and add "2," and
24 one "1" next to the first circle.
25 A. [Marks]
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just for the sake of
2 accuracy in the transcript, the Defence is marking the place number "2" as
3 the place where the tram came to a stop. This is Zmaja Od Bosne Street.
4 The witness is explaining that this is the Pofalici stop.
5 Q. Witness, was this correct, what I have just said for the
6 transcript, in the light of your explanation?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. In other words, if I understand you well, there are no tram tracks
9 in Pofalici? That is, in that part of the city of Sarajevo, there are no
10 tram tracks?
11 A. To clear it up, Pofalici is a part of the city over here. But
12 Donji Pofalici, some people call it the old railway station, and the
13 station itself is also called Pofalici, and this lower part is also called
15 Q. Witness, can you answer: Is this the tram stop for Pofalici, both
16 the first and the last from east to west? And I suppose for the opposite
17 direction, it is across the street. To make it all quite clear, that this
18 is the Pofalici stop on Zmaja Od Bosne Street, that that is the stop for
19 Pofalici. Is that correct?
20 A. As for your first question, this is neither the first nor the last
21 station on that particular tram line. In this area, there are two stops,
22 one for the trams coming from the east, from the centre of the city, that
23 is; and another one which moves eastward, that is, comes from the west,
24 from the direction of Ilidza, and is not right across the street but
25 relatively nearby. But the stop which is the Pofalici stop for trams
1 coming from the centre comes after you go across the intersection from the
2 city. And for the trams coming from west, they pass the intersection, and
3 the stop is slightly further on.
4 Q. Witness, you have just marked on the map the stop. And if I
5 understand you well, this is the stop for Donji Pofalici.
6 A. I marked the tram -- the stop for the tram in which I was and
7 which came from the centre of the city, that is, from the eastern part of
8 the city.
9 Q. Can you tell us --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel also break after the witness's
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. And tell us, in the upper part of the map above the lower part of
14 the map which you marked with number "2" and said it was lower Pofalici,
15 in relation to Pofalici, not to say that this is the upper part of the
16 city, is there -- are there any tram tracks leading to that upper part of
17 the town?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So, to get to Pofalici, to get to Pofalici, to the place where it
20 says "Pofalici," there is no tram which you can take to get there?
21 A. No, there isn't.
22 Q. Witness, thank you.
23 Now that you are marking these maps, at point number 1, you marked
24 the place where, according to you, the tram was hit. Can you confirm it
25 for me? And I believe you said it yesterday. I shall be very precise.
1 It was page 38 of the transcript. At 12.18.50, you said -- when asked by
2 my learned friend, you said that you smelled the gun powder in the tram.
3 Is that so?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. Witness, you were a soldier. You told us that you had been issued
6 with an M-48 rifle. Did you? And I assume you fired from the rifle. Did
8 A. Well, it may sound odd to you, but I really did not fire from the
9 rifle that I had.
10 Q. Were you present when somebody next to you fired a bullet from a
12 A. It happened very, very seldom. No direct or open-weather attack
13 or defence took place. It was more just letting go, the rifles.
14 Q. But Witness, in those situations, and you say they occurred very
15 seldom, when somebody in your vicinity fired a bullet, would you smell the
16 gun powder on those occasions, too?
17 A. Right now, I cannot follow the text on the screen, so maybe I will
18 go wrong again. And if necessary, perhaps I could have the text --
19 transcript back on the screen so that I could know that the -- when to
20 start answering the question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Jusic.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Witness, do you want me to ask the question?
24 A. No, no, no. I understood it. No, I did not smell gun powder when
25 rifles were fired.
1 Q. Can you tell us, what is a bullet charge made of? You were a
2 soldier, so...
3 A. Well, it has the coating, and it has the bullet, and I suppose it
4 has some gun powder charge.
5 Q. And when a bullet is fired, can you tell us, how does the bullet
6 leave its jacket?
7 A. I don't know. I'm not aware. I can try to figure it out, but I
8 don't really know.
9 Q. And if I tell you that gun powder is pressed out from the jacket
10 in order to eject the bullet, and that the -- one can smell the gun powder
11 at the time of firing, will you then -- it will jog your memory?
12 A. Well, I have some experience because I once served in the army of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. But during our secondary education, we usually had
14 some training, and we used -- we learned how to use firearms at that
15 time. But I must say that I'm not familiar with the firing from rifles.
16 But to tell you right now whether I smell gun powder when I had those
17 firing training, and I did that as a pupil and as a former member of the
18 army, I just don't remember. I don't recall smelling any gun powder.
19 Q. I understand that you -- technically speaking, you are more
20 educated, more qualified than I because I did not serve the Yugoslav
21 People's Army. But I'm asking you now, does it look logical to you that
22 at the moment when the bullet is ejected, that the gun powder is -- as a
23 result of the pressure, that that is what ejects the cartridge and that
24 one smells the gun powder. Doesn't it sound logical to you?
25 A. Well, maybe it is logical. I suppose it depends on the quantity
1 of gun powder, whether it's small or large. But I really cannot confirm.
2 And as I have said, I did fire as a civilian, as a pupil, as a soldier.
3 On the former Yugoslav army, I did fire from firearms, but I really cannot
4 confirm that that quantity of gun powder in the charge was so large as to
5 smell it. I really cannot remember that.
6 Q. Witness, thank you.
7 On the map that you have -- rather, the map that was shown you by
8 my learned friends, and that is 3644, on this map today, you drew -- you
9 marked the places where, according to you, were these skyscrapers. On
10 this map here, can you mark with reference to the skyscrapers in Grbavica
11 the buildings which housed the barracks, Holiday Inn, the UNIS building,
12 and the electric power management building.
13 Can you put small circles and then continue 1, 2, 3, 4, or I don't
14 know how many buildings there were.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, as far as I understand, there's no
16 misunderstanding about the marking, so it's to some extent repetitious.
17 It's on another map, but I do not exactly understand what the relevance is
18 to see where the witness puts it. I mean, this is the third map now we
19 are using to locate any skyscrapers. Or is there any specific reason why
20 we should do this? I do not mind if there is a good reason to do so.
21 But is there any -- do the parties disagree on the location of the
22 buildings that were indicated on the photos and -- I mean, is it the case
23 of the Defence that the witness indicated a wrong building when pointing
24 at the -- or just explain to us.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in direct
1 examination, the witness marked the map which I believe is 3644. The
2 witness marked the places -- the location of the skyscrapers in Grbavica.
3 And the Defence -- we can use the same map, Your Honour. With your
4 permission, we would like the witness to mark just, for the sake of
5 clarity, to mark the places -- the location of the barracks because we did
6 not see it on any of the photographs. Then the UNIS building, the older
7 buildings --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, if you want to have the map. I was
9 mistaken, as far as the skyscrapers were concerned, that you wanted to
10 have them marked again. I do understand that this is a misunderstanding.
11 Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE: A minor but important point, Mr. President: My
13 friend has referred to it twice as 3644. In fact, it's 3112. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's correct. The marking was done on map
15 3112. But please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 So, Mr. Jusic, you are asked to mark on this map which is not in
17 front of you.
18 THE REGISTRAR: D38.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think at this moment we have the map D38.
20 THE REGISTRAR: D38.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And we need now 3112, P3112.
22 You're invited to mark on the map the barracks.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I use the black marker?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How do you want me to mark them?
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Witness, will you make a circle around the barracks to encompass
3 the whole barracks complex.
4 A. [Marks]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please put letter "B" in it. "B" for
7 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Witness, now will you mark the UNIS building.
10 A. [Marks]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please add a "U" at the place where you
12 marked the UNIS building.
13 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Witness, will you now mark the Holiday Inn building.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. And the building of the electric power management. And the
19 government building.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please perhaps first add the letter "H" to
21 the Holiday Inn.
22 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this site, perhaps, I
25 don't know what letter to put here. We had B, H, U --
1 JUDGE ORIE: You asked for two buildings at the same time, so
2 let's first clarify whether this is the electricity power management or
3 the government, or is that the same building?
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Witness, this last building which you've marked, what is it? Is
6 it the government building or the electric board?
7 A. The last one is the building that once housed the government of
8 the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That building is out of use
9 because it has been totally destroyed.
10 Q. Witness, can you tell us, if you know, whether in the barracks
11 which you marked with the letter B --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first -- just for the sake of the record,
13 Ms. Pilipovic, could you add a "G" to your last marking you refer to as
14 the former government building.
15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Witness, do you know if in 1992, 1993, and 1994, the Marsal Tito
19 barracks in the street that you marked with a "B" housed any troops?
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object on the basis --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. IERACE: -- of vagueness. 1992, 1993, and 1994, it is not
23 particularly probative, given that the conflict started halfway through
24 1992, nor is it relative to the particular incident. Rather broad. Thank
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- yes, please.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
3 Q. Witness, do you know if in 1993 and 1994, were there any troops in
4 the Marsal Tito barracks?
5 A. What I can say is that I once went to the Marsal Tito barracks
6 during that period of time for health reasons because there was a medical
7 team there in a part, in one of the wings of that compound. Whether there
8 were army formations there, whether there were any units there, I just do
9 not know, whether there were any organised units, that is military
10 formations, that would be quartered in those facilities.
11 Q. Can you tell us, when was it that you went to the barracks for
12 medical treatment? What month, what year? Can you be more accurate, more
14 A. It was sometime -- like many people at the time, I had some
15 stomach troubles. I was suffering from a complaint. Later on, I
16 discovered that I had kidney stones and so I had to seek medical aid, and
17 that was the summer of 1993.
18 Q. So you said in summer 1993, when you went to the Marsal Tito
19 barracks, you hadn't seen any soldiers there in the barracks?
20 A. Well, I cannot say that for sure, whether there were any military
21 formations there, since the B and H army was basically untrained and did
22 not wear any insignia. Who was a soldier there and who wasn't, I cannot
23 really say. I don't know.
24 Q. Mr. Witness, can you tell us whether you know that in 1993, 1994,
25 from the buildings that you have marked for us - the Holiday Inn building,
1 the UNIS building, the power management building, the government building
2 of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina - from those buildings, whether those
3 buildings were used as military buildings and whether snipers shot from
4 those buildings?
5 A. I'm not aware of that.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness. Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief by
7 my learned colleague, that in June 1994 a truce was signed, and it was
8 peaceful on that critical day when the incident occurred; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. Until that moment, I cannot testify that there was any, in
10 fact, violation of that truce that had been signed. As far as I can
11 remember, it was a peaceful day. Whether elsewhere activities took place,
12 this is something which I cannot say.
13 Q. Can you tell us, given your post in the Ministry of Foreign
14 Affairs: When was the truce signed, and how long did it last? In what
15 period was it signed and how long did it last?
16 A. I don't know exactly when it was signed. I don't know exactly how
17 long it lasted either. I know for sure that it was a part of the summer
18 of 1994. My family - my wife and my two sons - were outside of Sarajevo
19 at the time, and I intended to take advantage of the truce to leave the
20 town and use the so-called Blue Road to visit my -- to bring my family
21 back to Sarajevo, and this is what I actually did in August of 1994.
22 Q. So now you are saying that your family did not live in Sarajevo
23 until August. So what was that period? When were they outside of
25 A. This was the period of May 1992, August 1994.
1 Q. Since you told us that you lived in Pofalici, can you tell us why
2 your family left Pofalici in May of 1992?
3 A. I invested a lot of effort to persuade my wife to leave the town
4 with the children. The final decision -- her final decision was made when
5 an incident had taken place, when armoured vehicles of the former JNA,
6 moving from town from the east, passed near the house where I lived. And
7 at the time, we were in the kitchen. We were cleaning the larder. And
8 then, at that moment, we heard a very powerful explosion which took place
9 in the building where we lived. I noted that one of the armoured vehicles
10 that were leaving the town, the JNA vehicles, shot a bullet -- actually, I
11 live on the fifth floor, and the bullet hit the flat below us on the third
13 Q. Now you are telling us that the JNA was retreating from Sarajevo.
14 A. I do not know whether it was actually retreating, but a column of
15 armoured vehicles was moving along the street, and one of those vehicles
16 fired the third storey of the building in which I lived, which is quite
17 near us, and we were eyewitnesses to that event. Well, this was -- these
18 were the days when shelling had already started, shelling of our building
19 where I used to live and where I spent most of the war, which is about 100
20 or 150 metres from the front lines.
21 Q. When were the front lines established? You said they were
22 established later on.
23 A. Well, it is difficult to say when the front line was established,
24 because my father-in-law has a garage in the section of the town occupied
25 by the Serbs, and the last time he went there was in May, and we felt bad
1 about a barrel of cheese that was left there.
2 Q. Can you tell us that in 1992 fighting took place in the Pofalici
3 area, in May of 1992?
4 A. There was shooting on the town, but organised resistance or
5 organised army or organised individuals or civilians, or some shooting in
6 the organised fashion, did not take place.
7 Q. So you are telling us that since you lived in Pofalici in the
8 period of May 1992 and early 1992, there was no fighting in Pofalici?
9 A. Shooting, shelling, explosions. Well, this happened during that
10 period, but I cannot testify to the fact that the conflict had already
11 started between the Republika Srpska army - I don't know exactly when it
12 was established - and the forces that were defending the town. I cannot
13 say that, because I did not take part in that event. I only heard that
14 there was shooting, that there was shelling, and in the skyscrapers where
15 I lived, and others in the vicinity, that they were being shelled.
16 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, if the Court allows me, I would like to
17 show you a sketch. Perhaps you can confirm this with reference to your
18 statement of December 13th, 1995. Did you make a sketch? You showed us a
19 sketch of a tram yesterday and then you drew another sketch, where you
20 marked two streets.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: November 1995. Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, did you sign that sketch as being your sketch, that you
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 had drawn it?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] With your permission, we would
4 like to show the witness the sketch and have him show us what the markings
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's a different sketch from the one yesterday
7 shown to the witness, or it's the same? You're nodding. Different or the
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No. It's sketch bearing the
10 number 20062468 [as interpreted], I think it was. Could the usher please
11 give the sketch to the witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. Yes. Is that -- P3111, is that the
13 same, Mr. Ierace? Yes. Since Madam Registrar has some copies of
14 this --
15 But it will now -- I do understand that you're going to tender it
16 into evidence, so -- Ms. Pilipovic, am I correct in my understanding?
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So then we'll -- although I do understand that these
19 are exactly the same documents, I'd rather, for clarity's sake, then have
20 the copies provided by Ms. Pilipovic. You have copies for us,
21 Ms. Pilipovic?
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have any
23 copies, because I thought that this was an exhibit of my learned
24 colleagues. If it is necessary, the Defence can make the necessary
25 copies. We could perhaps, on the ELMO, just clarify certain points, and
1 in the break we will make -- provide copies for you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: If you would allow, if you have got no copies, we
3 could use the Prosecution copies and then strike out the number, the "P"
4 number given by the Prosecution, and then add -- Madam Registrar will then
5 add the "D" number which is attached to it.
6 Yes, Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have no objection to the Prosecution
8 copies being used; however, I do have an objection on the basis of
9 relevance. This diagram was not referred -- I did not refer to this
10 diagram yesterday, for the simple reason that it relates to the incident
11 that the witness said occurred after the indictment period.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. IERACE: So I --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I do remember that you refrained from any questioning
15 on this specific issue because it -- as far as I understood, you were of
16 the opinion that this was not part of the indictment.
17 MR. IERACE: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: At least, not even covered by the period of the
20 So would you please tell us what the relevance is, Ms. Pilipovic.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has just
22 been informed by our learned colleague that this sketch refers to an
23 incident that occurred in 1994, but I don't have any information that this
24 is so, because it is not marked on the map. If it has to do with the
25 incident that, as my colleague asked about yesterday, in mid-September,
1 well, then, the Defence does not believe it to be relevant to examine the
2 witness in regard to the sketch, if there is confirmation that this is an
3 event that took place in the second part of September of 1994.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, of course this Chamber has not seen
5 the prior statement given to any investigators. If it would become clear
6 from the statement that this sketch relates to an incident which, in the
7 opinion of the Prosecution, is not within the scope of the indictment, I
8 think you could -- unless there's any serious doubt that the statement
9 gives wrong information to that effect, I would say: Is it necessary to
10 put the question to the witness, if it's clear from the statement? I
11 suggest you could draw your own conclusions.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no, because the
13 sketch has to do with an incident that took place in the second part of
14 September 1994, as my colleague mentioned yesterday, and he did not ask
15 him any questions in that respect, so I will withdraw my question about
16 the sketch.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We don't have to bother about the numbering any more.
18 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Witness, on the map next to you, as exhibit of the Prosecution
21 P3112, there you marked places where certain buildings were located, which
22 you were questioned about both by the Defence and the Prosecution. Could
23 you tell us: On that map, did you mark the place where the Jewish
24 cemetery is located? Witness, on the map, can you show us where the
25 Jewish cemetery is located.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you do that now, unless it is already drawn on the map.
3 A. [Indicates]
4 Q. Yes. Thank you. Can you, with reference to the Jewish cemetery,
5 and looking at the part of Miljacka, can you tell us exactly where the
6 front line was with reference to the Jewish cemetery.
7 A. Well, I can do this only partially, answer your question only in
8 part. During the war, and during my entire stay in Sarajevo, I
9 was -- during the whole period, with the exception of the three days when
10 I went to get my family, I was -- I had never been in that area which we
11 are now discussing, so that as far as I'm concerned, it is very difficult
12 for me to describe the demarcation line. But as what was common knowledge
13 among the citizens in respect of what was going on in the town, the
14 demarcation line was in the Miljacka/Grbavica area and the Suade
15 Dilberovic Bridge. Where the line runs -- well, I cannot exactly tell
16 you. The line running towards the slopes of Trebevic and the western part
17 of the city.
18 Q. Yesterday you told us that the lower section of Trebevic was under
19 the control of the B and H army.
20 A. Yes, roughly speaking. The rough line which I can describe to you
21 is the line of houses which were on the slopes of Trebevic, the northern
22 side of Trebevic, and the upper parts of Trebevic, with the exception of
23 the part of Grbavica and that part around it - I'm not quite sure what
24 section this was - which were under the control of the forces attacking
25 the town of Sarajevo.
1 Q. When you mention the forces attacking Sarajevo, you are showing us
2 the portion of Grbavica, Kovaci. Does that part of the town, is it
3 actually part of Sarajevo?
4 A. Yes, it is an integral part of the town of Sarajevo.
5 Q. Would you disagree with me that the forces that were in the part
6 of the Grbavica area and which was controlled by the Republika Srpska army
7 defended that section of the town?
8 A. Well, I have the opposite view. I don't know whom they were
9 defending this part from.
10 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interfere. Let us not go into a debate on
11 who exactly was attacking and who was defending because it's quite clear
12 that it depends from the view of the side you belong to whether you would
13 be more inclined to think of the other party as attacking and your own
14 party as defending. That's what we heard several times. Unless there are
15 any specific questions to be asked about it, of course, but not in
16 general. I don't think that this will clarify anything.
17 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, a few minutes ago my friend put to the
19 witness that he had said yesterday that the lower part of the Jewish
20 cemetery -- excuse me -- was --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think you refer to the lower part of Mount
23 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MR. IERACE: I withdraw the objection, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, may I also, having a look at the
2 clock, what I heard for the last couple of minutes was a witness who said
3 he had no precise knowledge of any front lines. We have had a lot of
4 testimony --
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- by witnesses who were more in detail informed
7 about the front lines. Would you please try to reconsider the relevance
8 of this part of your examination.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Witness, can you tell us, on the day that the incident you spoke
11 about occurred, did you, in fact, report the incident to the authorities
12 in charge?
13 A. This is a typical question by a person who knows very little about
14 what was going on in 1994 or does not wish to know.
15 Q. I simply asked you whether you reported the incident.
16 A. There were thousands of incidents.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jusic, may I ask you not to comment on the
18 questioning. If there is any reason why you shouldn't answer a question,
19 the Prosecution or the Judges will interfere. But otherwise, I'd like you
20 to answer the questions to the best of your knowledge.
21 Please proceed.
22 A. The only thing I did was go to the first aid station, which is
23 near the Pofalici station, to see what sort of injury was in question. It
24 wasn't a -- didn't expect to be a more serious injury, but I was afraid
25 that a part of the bullet which hit me had not [as interpreted] been
1 perhaps contaminated with some sort of poison, so that the wound I had,
2 the bullet shot in my -- the calf of my right leg, I wanted it to be
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you, Witness. At the moment when you were in the tram, and
6 when you heard that allegedly a shot was fired against the tram, was the
7 tram moving at the time?
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 Q. Can you tell me at what speed was it moving?
10 A. The usual speed for a tram. I can only suppose -- assume what the
11 speed was. Perhaps 40, 50 kilometres an hour.
12 Q. Can you -- one more question: What was your position -- what sort
13 of position were you in when you heard the shot? When I say "position," I
14 mean with reference to the right and left side of the tram? Were you
15 turned towards the right-hand side or the left-hand side of the tram?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, this question has been asked I think
17 at least twice and has been answered in a consistent way. So I do not
18 know. I consider this question is repetitious. As far as my recollection
19 goes, the witness has testified that, looking in the direction of which
20 the tram was driving, he was looking to the right-hand side with his back
21 to the left side of the tram, the left side of the tram, which was facing
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... the question is
25 repetitious. Please proceed.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Now the Defence has no further
2 questions, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Pilipovic.
4 Is there any need to re-examine the witness and how much time
5 would you think it would take? If it's just a matter of one or two
6 questions, then we might proceed and finish. Otherwise, we'll have a
7 break now.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can tell you that I intend to ask
9 the witness to mark the tram stops on the map prior to Pofalici. And I've
10 had the opportunity, during cross-examination, to read some transcript
11 from yesterday and I would seek leave to ask a question to clarify
12 something which appears in the transcript which may or may not have been
13 what the witness said. I suspect it wasn't. That's --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then perhaps we then have to give the
15 opportunity to Defence as well to cross-examine on that specific issue.
16 Then we'll first have the break, and we'll resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.
17 Mr. Jusic, we'll have a break for 20 minutes.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
21 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might the witness be shown
22 Exhibit D38. That's the map that the Defence provided.
23 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:
24 Q. Mr. Jusic, I think you marked on that map the route that the tram
25 took from the time that it was hit until when you alighted at Pofalici.
1 Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Would you please take a blue pen and, by placing a cross at the
4 relevant points on that line, would you indicate the stops which the tram
5 could have made along the way, that is, from the time that it was shot.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Therefore, there were two stops before Pofalici that the tram
8 should have stopped but did not; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Pofalici was the third stop from when the tram was hit; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I seek leave to clarify a part of the
14 transcript, according to the LiveNote transcript. The relevant passage
15 appears on page 65, line 25.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me -- that's the transcript of yesterday?
17 MR. IERACE: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just find it. You said what page was it?
19 MR. IERACE: Page 65.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So you're using the, I would say, the old transcript,
21 not the -- I've got -- what's the subject?
22 MR. IERACE: The relevant passage begins with the words: "And I
23 simply had enough wits about me to try to see the exact place where the
24 tram had been hit, and I observed that bullet."
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just look for the word "bullet" and then ...
1 The problem is I've got the ongoing paging.
2 MR. IERACE: The time, if it assists --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I've got no time either.
4 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President. I may be able to assist.
5 Page 317 --
6 JUDGE ORIE: I have --
7 MR. IERACE: 318.
8 JUDGE ORIE: "I simply had enough wits..." I've found it. Yes,
9 please. Please proceed.
10 MR. IERACE:
11 Q. At any stage, did you see the bullet?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you see any parts of a bullet?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am not certain that I have
19 the exact line, because we don't have the date or the hour. What is the
20 current line of the text?
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... is your computer
22 attached to the system or have you got all the -- because it's -- there's
23 a search engine, so I --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. I have it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And if you see the word "bullet."
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I have it. Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And then the previous line starts with: "I simply
3 had enough wits about me to try to see the exact place where ..." And in
4 the transcript I have at this moment, it's page 3221, line 9.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I am now at 2097. I'm
6 going to have a look. But I can't go any further than 2297, but I will go
8 JUDGE ORIE: To be quite honest, I can't follow you at this
9 moment. I have in front of me the transcript, LiveNote transcript from
10 yesterday. I opened it on my computer.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm happy to make available my hard
12 copy to my friend.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
14 MR. IERACE: The red tab marks the spot.
15 Yes, please, Mr. Usher, would you return the hard copy of the
16 transcript to the Prosecution. Is there any need to put any additional
17 question on this issue by the Defence?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I was just
19 trying to make sure that we had the same text before us.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
21 Judge Nieto-Navia has an additional question or questions to you,
22 Mr. Jusic.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: We are going to use the same map, the one that
25 you have on the ELMO. Answering a question from Ms. Pilipovic, you said
1 at page 48, line 19: "It's neither the first or last station." You are
2 referring to the Pofalici stop. Do you remember that?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Looking at the map, you were drawing over the
5 rails as shown on the map. And there is something which says "Zmaja Od
6 Bosne" after the Pofalici station, to the left. And we cannot see the
7 rails there, but I assume - and that is my question - that the rails are
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions to
12 put to you.
13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Witness, I wanted to ask you two brief questions, the first being
15 in relation to the location where you think the bullet came from, where it
16 was shot from. I'm going to explain. It seems to me that yesterday you
17 said the bullet probably came from the location where the Jewish cemetery
18 was, and it seemed to me -- perhaps I am mistaken -- that today you were
19 referring to the possibility that the bullets could have come from the
21 Now, do you think that perhaps they came from the location of the
22 cemetery or from the skyscrapers?
23 A. What I said so far - I know, and I remember what I said - I never
24 said that the -- in this particular case of shooting at the tramway, there
25 was talk about shooting from any skyscrapers.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So at the moment when you were
2 talking about the skyscrapers, you were referring to other incidents?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Fine. Then the incident that
5 happened when you were in the tram, if I understand it correctly, you were
6 shot; you were hit in the foot -- in your foot. And we presume that the
7 shots were targeting very low in the cabin of the tram, in the carriage.
8 Or were they targeting the passengers?
9 If it was possible to identify where the bullet had entered on the
10 carriage of the tram, do you think that they were shooting at the cabin or
11 the higher parts of the tramway, that is, where the passengers could be
12 seen from the outside?
13 A. I said that the entry point of the bullet was about 10 centimetres
14 below the pane of glass, the window, on the tram, and that is roughly the
15 position of the -- roughly the position of where a chest would be of a
16 person who is sitting on a tram. This is about one bullet. I'm saying
17 this again; I'm repeating it. And from one such bullet, several people
18 were wounded. Whether -- what kind of bullets that was that could result
19 in wounding of several people, I am not an expert so I couldn't say.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So, if we're talking about this
21 incident, this was just one single bullet which wounded you, the child,
22 and the lady who was standing about 1 metre from you on your side?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do apologise. I've just realised
2 that on P3112, there is a cross which has not been explained. It relates
3 to the evidence given by the witness at the conclusion of yesterday's
4 testimony. I anticipate that its relevance is well understood, but
5 perhaps for the sake of completeness, I should elicit a further question
6 and answer -- further answer from the witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean the cross on the Brodska?
8 MR. IERACE: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The mere fact that I immediately refer to the Brodska
10 Street, and it might be common understanding that this crossing, unless
11 there's any doubt on the Defence side.
12 MR. IERACE: In other words, Mr. President, the "X" marks the spot
13 where the witness observed the man to fall to the ground.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That was my understanding, since the name of the
15 street has specifically been mentioned.
16 Any misunderstanding about that, Ms. Pilipovic? It seems that you
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
20 I have one final question, Mr. Jusic. You told this Court this
21 morning that - it may sound odd - but that you -- and then I'm not quite
22 sure on what you said, on whether you "really" not fired from the rifle
23 you had or that you "rarely" fired from the rifle you had. Just for my
24 understanding, did you never fire or did you rarely fire from the rifle?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Which one is it? Is it "rarely" or "really not"?
2 A. What I said was that I never fired from that rifle. And the
3 explanation and the interpretation of that is the following, is that I was
4 on the lines of defence --
5 JUDGE ORIE: It was just to clarify your answer. I just wanted to
6 know whether I understood you well. And I do accept it as an explanation
7 for that, but it was just a clarification of your answer. Thank you very
9 Mr. Jusic, you have come a far way from Sarajevo to The Hague. We
10 noticed during the testimony that bringing back into your mind some of the
11 events might have not been easy for you. We highly appreciate that you
12 nevertheless took the effort to come and to answer all the questions put
13 to you, since answers of witnesses are of great importance for this
14 Chamber to make the decisions we'll have to make. So I would thank you
15 very much, and I'd like to wish you a safe journey home again. This is
16 the end of your examination. The usher will lead you out of the
17 courtroom. Thank you once again.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE ORIE: I would like first to do all the decisions on the
21 admissibility of the evidence, Mr. Ierace.
22 Madam Registrar, could you guide us.
23 THE REGISTRAR: The 360-degree Quicktime movie will be P3279I; the
24 videotape, P3280J.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And I do understand that objections are, I would say,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 as usual, but this is not --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I did not want to
3 interrupt Madam Registrar. But I said at the beginning, and I'm just
4 repeating, that this is very same objection.
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: The set of two photographs, P3279J; the map,
7 P3112; the diagram, P3110; and two Defence exhibits, two maps, the first
8 one D37, and the second D38.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, thank you. Taking into
10 consideration the objections, the decision is the same as it has been for
11 the other videos and 360-degree photographs. We still received this
12 morning - I don't know whether you'd referred to that, but I'd rather
13 first go through the documents - the B/C/S version of document D35, which
14 is now D35.1, at least the one page where the witness gives a statement
15 about the profession and the position of her husband. That's what I have
16 in front of me, Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, could I quickly raise something before
18 the relevant part disappears off the screen?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. IERACE: Page 74, line 15 and 16, I think the last reference
21 to be P3278 -- or 3280J.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, were you able to follow? The video
23 is then --?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The video is P3280J.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There was one "0" missing. So we then have
1 document D35.1, which is the B/C/S version of -- well, I would say the
2 front page and one of the pages of the prior statement of the witness
3 Mrs. Taric, which bears the number 00902393, which starts with "Izjava
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my objection is the usual one as well,
6 that is, that only the relevant part, that is, the part read to the
7 witness, is admissible. It's already on the transcript, and one wonders
8 whether the position is really improved by having, as a formal exhibit,
9 the page that contains that sentence on the transcript. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a bit surprised, Mr. Ierace. Yesterday you would
11 agree on the whole statement --
12 MR. IERACE: We withdraw that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then I -- yes, you withdraw that, but --
14 MR. IERACE: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- I'm a bit surprised by when we tried to limit the
16 exhibit to be admitted into evidence to the one and only page we referred
17 to, then you said, "Oh, as far as the Prosecution is concerned, it could
18 be the whole document," and now you want to limit it to the line. I think
19 we took a decision as far as the admission was concerned, apart from the
20 translation. I'm looking to my colleagues. I do not see that there's any
21 reason to change that decision.
22 MR. IERACE: As you please, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think we are then at a point where the Prosecution
24 could call its next witness.
25 Mr. Mundis.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, before I do that --
2 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Mr. Piletta-Zanin is standing.
3 Would you please --
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. This is
5 just to make things easier. For this witness equally, if there is going
6 to be a 360-degree presentation, then we will have the same objection for
7 that as well.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's my understanding, just for all the future
9 cases: After we have the explanation from the witness, I'll ask you once
10 again whether the objection still stands, and it will be valid for all the
11 360-degree photographs and the videos.
12 Mr. Mundis.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, before the next witness is brought
14 into the courtroom, I wanted to take the opportunity to inform both the
15 Trial Chamber and my learned colleagues that, in a statement taken from
16 the next witness, dated 13 November 1995, the witness makes reference to
17 where she believes the gunfire came from. And for the record, this will
18 relate to the same incident that Mr. Jusic just testified about.
19 Yesterday, in order to familiarise the witness with the 360-degree
20 panorama photograph - which again will be the same exhibit that was shown
21 to Mr. Jusic - the witness then corrected -- her recollection was then
22 changed, having viewed that photograph, and she will now testify -- we
23 expect her to testify that the bullet, in fact, came from a location
24 different from the one that's indicated in her statement.
25 My understanding is -- normally I should have filed a supplemental
1 information sheet to that effect; however, I failed to do so. I was only
2 informed of this yesterday. And the reason I bring this to everyone's
3 attention is simply to allow the Defence, if they need additional time
4 prior to cross-examining this witness, we would have no objection to that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we'll start with the
6 examination-in-chief now, and I think the Defence will have an opportunity
7 to consider whether they need any extra time. It's not unreasonable to
8 expect that they will have, anyhow, approximately 19 to 20 hours [sic].
9 But if it's not enough, we'll hear that tomorrow.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you allow me one moment.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I can see, there's no one in the public
15 gallery at this moment. That is of importance since, as you may all know,
16 that we have some problems with the facial distortion, since the position
17 of the public gallery is such that it might not be effective. So
18 therefore, although I paid specific attention to the openness of the
19 public gallery, unfortunately, we'll now have to close it again. But
20 since I see that there's no one in at this very moment, I hope it's not
21 too much of a problem. And whoever wants to attend this Court hearing
22 would then have to rely upon the television screens. Let me just check on
23 whether the facial distortion is functioning well. Yes, it is.
24 Please, Mr. Mundis, you may proceed once the witness has been
25 brought into the courtroom.
1 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.
2 MR. IERACE: Will you excuse me, Mr. President and Your Honours,
3 for the remainder of this session?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
5 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you're excused.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to be sure, since there have been some
9 changes, could you please, Mr. Mundis, at the beginning indicate exactly
10 what protective measures are enforced, to me, perhaps now, right away, so
11 that I will not make any mistake. I know about the facial distortion
12 and --
13 MR. MUNDIS: The witness also has a pseudonym, Witness M.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness M.
15 Mrs. M, can you hear me in a language you understand?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I call you "Mrs. M" because protective measures are
18 granted in respect of you. That means that we use not your real name, but
19 we'll speak to you as "Mrs. M," and at the same time there will be facial
20 distortion so that on the screens no one can see your actual face.
21 Mrs. M, before being examined, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence
22 require you to make a solemn declaration, and the text of this declaration
23 will be given to you by the usher. I invite you to make the declaration
25 WITNESS: WITNESS M
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. You'll now
5 be examined by Mr. Mundis, who is counsel for the Prosecution.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I would first ask that the
7 witness be shown a Document P3652, which contains identifying
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
10 Examined by Mr. Mundis:
11 Q. Witness M, I would ask that you look at the document which has
12 just been placed in front of you, marked P3652. And without reading
13 what's on that document, I would ask if you would confirm that your name
14 is stated on that document.
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. And does that document also contain your date of birth?
17 A. It does.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness M.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then Document P3652 is admitted into evidence as an
20 exhibit with the same number.
21 MR. MUNDIS: That would be under seal?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Under seal, yes. I apologise for forgetting it.
23 MR. MUNDIS:
24 Q. Witness M, do you recall approximately when the war in Bosnia
1 A. In 1992, in Sarajevo.
2 Q. And Witness M, in what city were you living when the war began?
3 A. In Sarajevo.
4 Q. When did you move or when did you begin living in Sarajevo?
5 A. In 1988. And since 1988, I have lived there.
6 Q. Witness, can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how the
7 conditions of life in Sarajevo changed once the war began.
8 A. We were taken back I don't know to what time. It was very hard
9 because we lacked any fuel, any kind of fuel, electricity, food, and that
10 was something that we were not used to. So it changed. We lost -- we
11 went backwards for I don't know how many years. We went back to some age
12 that I really don't know.
13 Q. Witness M, did there come a time during the course of that war in
14 Sarajevo that you became aware in general of sniping activities in the
16 A. Yes. I became aware of the sniping activities right in the early
17 days of the war -- war, what am I saying? The aggression.
18 Q. Witness M, as a result of your awareness of these sniping
19 activities, how did your life change?
20 A. We were simply like inmates in a camp. We lost our freedom of
21 movement. It was all -- that is, of course, we had to move about in order
22 to survive, in order to be able to get some supplies. But we mostly did
23 so running, and most parts of Sarajevo had to be covered running, those
24 parts where we had to go.
25 Q. Witness M, what was your occupation when the war in Sarajevo
2 A. I was an economist.
3 Q. At the time the war began, did you have any children?
4 A. Yes, I had one child. Male.
5 Q. What year was your son born in?
6 A. 1989, November 1989.
7 Q. Did there come a time in the summer of 1994 when your son was the
8 victim of a sniping incident?
9 A. Yes. That is correct, he was.
10 Q. In what month or season of 1994 did this incident occur?
11 A. It was the summer. It was the summer of 1994.
12 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber what happened on
13 that day.
14 A. The day, a cease-fire was in force in Sarajevo, so that the public
15 transport was operational, and you could visit your family, your
16 relatives, and I did that. I went to see my sister-in-law, my husband's
17 sister, in the part of the town called Bjelave. And we were on our way
18 back. It was a calm day. There were no incidents to speak of, and it was
19 the same when we went to visit her. So we took the tram, thinking, well,
20 the cease-fire has been signed so nothing can happen, or at least that is
21 what we believed.
22 However, right at the second stop, between the second stop, I
23 heard a shot. I looked at the child who was sitting next to the -- next
24 to me but next to the window, and he was screaming. So I picked him up
25 and I saw that he was bleeding. And we immediately -- we went down to the
1 floor; that is, we had stood up and just went down to the floor. I saw
2 blood on my dress, and at that moment I didn't really know -- I wasn't
3 aware of -- I didn't think of whether I had been injured, too. All my
4 thoughts were with the child. But in those seconds, split seconds, which
5 is how long it happened, I really could not see where my child had
6 sustained injury.
7 And later on, when the tram driver, and that was a woman, when she
8 stopped when we were at a safe place, let's say safe stop, which was
9 called Pofalici, then my husband's sister, my sister-in-law, helped me.
10 She saw that we were bloody, and she took my child, because I was at that
11 time six months pregnant, and we went to the emergency clinic.
12 Q. Witness M, how old was your son on the day he was shot in the
14 A. My son was then four and a half years old.
15 Q. What was your son wearing on that day?
16 A. A T-shirt and shorts.
17 Q. What were you wearing that day?
18 A. A dress with short sleeves.
19 Q. Were there any soldiers on the tram on that day?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you see any kind of military weapons or military equipment on
22 the tram that day?
23 A. No. No. No. No.
24 Q. Do you recall which stop you got on to the tram on that day?
25 A. That stop is called Skenderija.
1 Q. And which direction was the tram travelling at the time your son
2 was shot?
3 A. It was travelling from the centre, from Skenderija towards Ilidza,
4 towards -- yes, that's right, towards Ilidza. The last stop was at Cengic
6 Q. Was the tram travelling in a westward direction?
7 A. Now, I really can't -- can't really say. I mean, I can't.
8 Q. That's fine.
9 Do you recall approximately how many people were on the tram on
10 that day?
11 A. I was in the first part of the tram, in the first carriage. It
12 was not full. It was not crowded, not the -- that was a usual thing so
13 that not many people were standing. Six, seven persons perhaps were
14 standing, were on their feet in the first carriage. In the rear carriage,
15 I can't remember.
16 Q. What time of day was it when your son was shot?
17 A. The time of day? It was around 5.00. 1700. I mean 5.00 p.m.
18 Q. What was the weather like that day?
19 A. It was sunny and fair.
20 Q. Do you know if any other passengers on the tram were injured at
21 the same time your son was injured?
22 A. I think so, yes, because there were screams in that tram. Right
23 across from where I was sitting, there were three or four people standing
24 or perhaps two or three. I don't know. And I know that a girl was
25 injured in her arm, I think. And as for the man who was standing there, I
1 don't know because I was concerned about my child, so I don't know if that
2 man was injured or not. Later on I heard that, yes, he had also been
4 Q. At the time your son was injured, you were sitting next to your
5 son -- he was sitting next to you. Is that correct?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. And at that time, the seats were arranged in such a way that you
8 were facing the front of the tram, that is, the direction in which the
9 tram was going?
10 A. That's right, yes.
11 Q. Were you sitting on the left side of the tram or the right side of
12 the tram?
13 A. I was sitting on the right side, and my boy was sitting to the
14 left of me. So we were on that side -- on the left side, and he was
15 sitting on my left.
16 Q. Your son was sitting next to the window on the left side of the
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you were sitting in the seat immediately to his right?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Do you recall the approximate location where the tram was at the
22 time your son was shot?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And what location was that?
25 A. It is at the intersection slightly after Marin Dvor, not quite at
1 the intersection, a little bit -- a little way ahead.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be shown
3 the 360-degree panoramic view.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
5 MR. MUNDIS: That's P3279I.
6 Q. Witness M, do you see an image on the screen in front of you?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Do you recognise what is depicted in that image?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. There are two buildings in the image. Can you identify the
11 building on the left?
12 A. If I was coming from the centre of the city, then this was to my
14 Q. I'm simply asking you if you know what the building on the left
16 A. A church.
17 MR. MUNDIS: I ask that the photograph be panned slightly to the
18 right. Pause, please.
19 Q. Witness M, do you see a tram on the right-hand side of the
20 photograph in the middle of the view?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Is that tram similar to the one in which you and your son were
23 riding at the time he was shot?
24 A. Yes, it's similar.
25 Q. Is that tram travelling in the same direction that the tram you
1 and your son were riding on at the time he was shot?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. MUNDIS: Pan slightly more to the right, please. Please pause
5 Q. Witness M, was this the intersection or the approximate location
6 the tram was at the time your son was shot?
7 A. A little bit further down.
8 Q. By "down," Witness, do you mean to the right of the photograph or
9 to the left of the photograph?
10 A. Forward.
11 Q. To the right, in the direction that the tram is travelling in the
12 photo, to the right. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, yes. Yes, yes.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Please pan the photograph slightly to the right,
15 slowly, please.
16 Q. Witness M, tell us when we should stop.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Stop for what, Mr. Mundis?
18 MR. MUNDIS: Stop at the time where the tram was at the time your
19 son was shot.
20 A. That's it. Little bit more. It was here.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness M.
22 MR. MUNDIS: For the record, the photograph is now in a position
23 where a large building with serious structural damage towards the top of
24 the building is in the centre of the photograph, and a building which
25 appears to be a five- or six-storey building is in the left-hand part of
1 the photograph.
2 JUDGE ORIE: If I may correct you, the building is just right of
3 the centre of the photograph, as I see it now.
4 MR. MUNDIS:
5 Q. Witness M, do you know where the person who shot your son was
6 located at the time the weapon was fired?
7 A. Could you now move it a bit to the left? Because I can't see the
8 hills here, and that is where the person who fired the shot was. Now if
9 you move -- somewhere in those hills up there.
10 Q. Again, when you see the hills, can you please tell us to stop
11 panning the photograph.
12 A. Here. Here. It's those hills here.
13 Q. Witness M, do you know the name of the area that is in the
14 photograph in front of you?
15 A. Well, I wasn't born in Sarajevo. To me, it's all Trebevic on this
16 side of Sarajevo.
17 Q. And the ridge in the background of the photograph, what area is
18 that called?
19 A. Well, I know that the Jewish cemetery is somewhere there.
20 MR. MUNDIS: For the record, Mr. President, the photograph that's
21 now being displayed to the witness contains two trees. On the left side
22 is a taller tree which extends above the ridge shown in the background of
23 the photograph. Approximately in the centre of the photograph is a street
24 extending away from the location where the camera is located, and to the
25 right of that street is a smaller tree, which is adjacent to a building
1 that appears to be five or six storeys tall.
2 If the photograph could please be panned to the right. Pause
3 there, please.
4 Q. Witness M, looking at the photograph in front of you, does that
5 view indicate the direction in which the tram was travelling at the time
6 your son was shot?
7 A. Yes, it does.
8 Q. On the right-hand side of the photograph, do you recognise a
9 building that is yellow and green in colour?
10 A. I do, yes.
11 Q. What building is that?
12 A. Holiday Inn, the hotel.
13 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask the technician to pan the photograph further
14 to the right, please. That's fine. Stop.
15 Q. Witness M, did the panorama photo that you were just shown
16 accurately portray the approximate location of the tram at the time your
17 son was shot?
18 A. Yes, it does.
19 Q. Witness M, after your son was shot, what did the tram do?
20 A. All the passengers said, "Drive on, drive on," and the driver did
21 that and stopped only in Pofalici.
22 Q. Do you know if there were any scheduled stops for the tram between
23 the location where your son was shot and the stop at Pofalici?
24 A. What do you mean, "scheduled stops"?
25 Q. Were there tram stops, places where the tram would have normally
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 stopped, between the place where your son was shot and Pofalici?
2 A. Yes, yes. Yes, there were, yes. Yes, there were.
3 Q. How many stops were there, to the best of your recollection?
4 A. Two. Two.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, I'm looking at the clock. It's a quarter
6 to 2.00. If you could find a suitable moment to --
7 MR. MUNDIS: This moment is just as good as any other.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm starting to guess a bit on whether ...
9 I will first tell you, Mrs. M, that we'll continue tomorrow
10 morning at 9.00. We have been -- no, I'm sorry. Next Monday we'll
11 continue at 9.30, since tomorrow, on Friday, we'll not sit. The reason
12 why we stop now -- you've been only for a short time in the courtroom, but
13 we have been here already from 9.00, and we all want to concentrate and to
14 listen carefully to what all the witnesses want to say to us. So
15 therefore, unfortunately, you have to wait for the weekend and return on
16 Monday at 9.30.
17 Mr. Usher, would you please, before we formally adjourn, lead the
18 witness out of the courtroom, because I have one additional remark to be
19 made to the parties.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourn, I noticed that we are slowing down
22 again. I also noticed that both teams seem to have one who is, I would
23 say, perhaps a bit more efficient than the other one, since, as far as I
24 can assess it now, we get approximately the same information from
25 witnesses if examined by one of the counsel in a shorter time than we get
1 similar information from the other. I would be very reluctant to give
2 further instructions, since the -- well, the Rules of Procedure and
3 Evidence empower me to -- empowers the Chamber to control the mode and the
4 way of the questioning. So I would call upon the parties perhaps to sit
5 together and to see what the differences are in the speed, in the pace
6 they are able to keep, and then try to at least come at a pace of the
7 fastest, in both teams. Perhaps we can give you some time for training.
8 We'll then adjourn, if there's nothing else to be observed at this
9 moment, until next Monday, 9.30.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of
12 February, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.