1 Tuesday, 12 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom and the

6 annexes of this courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Ms. Pilipovic, I see a new appearance in the courtroom. Could you

12 please introduce --

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Good morning,

14 Your Honours. The Defence would like to inform Your Honours that in the

15 Defence team for General Galic this morning, we have our legal assistant

16 present. His name is Mr. Vladimir Rajic.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

18 Welcome, Mr. Rajic, to this courtroom.

19 I tried yesterday to go to the pre-trial documents and was a bit

20 surprised finally about all the confusion about Vahida Zametica, but,

21 well, it is as it is, and let's just proceed and not lose too much time.

22 Because I saw summaries of a statement of Vahida Zametica in the -- I saw

23 the name in the list, the Article 65 ter list. I saw a summary of a

24 statement. So I'm still a bit surprised, but, well, sometimes that

25 happens.

1 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, good morning.

3 Thank you for giving me the floor. The Defence would need, as soon as

4 possible, I think, only a few minutes to present the concrete and daily

5 difficulties it is exposed to and which risk, making the defence of

6 General Galic literally impossible. I think we need to inform the Chamber

7 about this as soon as possible. The Defence finds that it is almost

8 unable to accomplish its mandate in accordance with the relevant Rule with

9 the greatest possible competence and courage. It is not possible to do

10 that now, and we would like to present the reasons to the Court, for which

11 we will need a few minutes only.

12 JUDGE ORIE: You would like to do it right away, at this very

13 moment?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can do that at any moment

15 which seems convenient to the Chamber, but it will take a few minutes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do it right away, and I invite you, then,

17 although I'm always very -- your language is very charming but sometimes

18 takes a lot of charming time, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. So if you would please

19 do it -- we know that there's charm behind your words, so please proceed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

21 Mr. President. The problem is the following: I'm not speaking so much on

22 my own behalf as much as for my colleague, Ms. Pilipovic. We received,

23 quite recently, that is, yesterday, a letter, which I think is formally

24 from the Tribunal, signed by Mr. Christian Rohde, a Dutch legal officer,

25 but it is in fact from the Tribunal, and this letter tells us, for

1 instance -- and I hope I won't be trivial, but regarding the invoicing, it

2 is not possible for the Defence, that is, Ms. Pilipovic, to charge the

3 visits to Mr. Galic, and this letter says that meetings between Defence

4 counsel, which are, of course, extremely important to determine matters of

5 strategy and so on, are no longer possible because they cannot be

6 charged. And what is more, that in spite of all the charm that the

7 Defence is trying to use, it will not be possible for us to be as precise

8 as we would like to because the re-reading of transcripts has been, in

9 fact, prohibited. I'm thinking of the Registry and the fact that we need

10 to re-read the transcripts to see what the witnesses said to see if there

11 are minor errors or irregularities, and all this has been excluded which

12 means, one, that the Defence cannot see General Galic; secondly, the

13 Defence is indirectly invited no longer to re-read the transcripts; and

14 thirdly --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I have no knowledge of that

16 letter. You're commenting on a letter which we do not know. I hardly can

17 imagine that it says that you are not allowed to re-read the transcripts.

18 There will be something in it similar to what was in a letter we received

19 recently that we get no hard copies of it. But could you perhaps first

20 tell us before commenting on it what exactly is in the letter. Because

21 the first part I do understand, that Ms. Pilipovic will not get payment

22 for the hours spent on visits to Mr. Galic. That's clear.

23 And about reading the transcripts, what does it say, that you're

24 not allowed to read them?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can quote. That was my

1 conclusion.

2 [In English] "The transcript is not in itself indispensable.

3 Transcripts are a tool to support the recollection of..." et cetera.

4 [Interpretation] Also:

5 [In English] "...Defence team members are not in themselves

6 billable..." et cetera.

7 [Interpretation] And also, the preparatory discussions with our

8 own witnesses are not authorised to the extent they are not billable.

9 [In English] "... of witnesses seems not to be necessary."

10 [Interpretation] And also:

11 [In English] "... received from the Prosecution is presumed to be

12 a task from investigators."

13 [Interpretation] We have seen to what extent Defence questions are

14 useful when certain Prosecution witnesses questioned by the Defence have

15 been able to convey to the Chamber vital information such as the line of

16 vision, things that were not established by the investigators. And the

17 Defence will have its wings clipped, be it charming or not. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this Chamber will require the

19 Registry to provide the Chamber with a copy of the letter that has been

20 sent to you, and we'll pay proper attention to whatever limits there are

21 put now on the Defence, and we'll then inform you.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

23 Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, two matters: The first concerns the

1 death certificate. Before I come to that, Friday week, that is Friday,

2 the 22nd of February, is a UN holiday respecting a day of significance to

3 members of the Muslim faith.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. IERACE: The Office of the Prosecution has encountered

6 difficulties in securing the attendance of witnesses of the Muslim faith

7 in the days leading up to Friday, the 22nd, and so that the witnesses

8 could be ready to give evidence on Monday the 25th as well. There is a

9 uniform response from witnesses of the Muslim faith in Sarajevo that they

10 do not wish to be away from their families and homes between Wednesday,

11 the 20th and Monday, the 25th of February. We are taking steps to secure

12 the attendance of witnesses on the Wednesday, Thursday and Monday, which

13 will require us to go beyond the proposed order of calling of evidence.

14 In other words, if we can secure the attendance of witnesses, they are

15 likely to be from -- witnesses who would have otherwise have been called

16 at a later stage of the Prosecution case.

17 I bring that to your attention at this stage mindful of the

18 seven-day rule, and that tomorrow is the deadline for notifying the

19 Defence and the Chamber of witnesses we would call on those days. But

20 also mindful that it may be that we cannot attend -- we cannot secure the

21 attendance of witnesses for part of or all of those three days. If it

22 transpires that the problem is insurmountable, I can assure the Trial

23 Chamber that if there is any out of court time, that we could turn that to

24 the advantage of the Trial Chamber in terms of efficiency. But I bring

25 that to your attention. Thank you.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps it would be possible, if you are not

2 sure about whether the witnesses can appear or not, perhaps you have a

3 kind of emergency scenario available, perhaps even on other issues, but I

4 would rather like to use the time as efficiently as possible. It's at

5 least good that as soon as this came up - and as far as I understand, it

6 only recently came up - you immediately informed the Trial Chamber and the

7 Defence.

8 So then perhaps the death certificate, yes.

9 MR. IERACE: I tender Prosecution Exhibit P1382. It is a poor

10 quality copy of the death certificate with an English translation. I have

11 multiple copies available, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

13 Mr. Usher, could you please.

14 Since these are poor copies, Mr. Ierace, you indicated yesterday

15 that you had a videolink witness who would testify, and I saw that also on

16 the list, on the source of this document. I remember that yesterday you

17 indicated that it might not be necessary any more. But since the quality

18 of the document, perhaps we still would be in need of some explanation of

19 the document.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the significance of the evidence which

21 is anticipated from the deceased's husband essentially is to attest that

22 she, indeed, was killed. He was not present at the scene of her death.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. IERACE: By tendering the death certificate, I don't think

25 that his evidence could really add anything further. I note from the

1 English translation that the critical aspect that Your Honours were

2 anxious to hear about appears, that is, date of death, that's item Number

3 3, 11 July 1993, at 1600 hours. A copy has been provided to the

4 interpreters this morning. If Your Honours think it appropriate to

5 ascertain the degree of legibility of that entry, it appears on the first

6 page about five lines down. One can make out "16.00," and to the left of

7 that, one can barely make out what appears to be "11.07." And then some

8 other numbers, and then to the left of that, some words in Bosnian.

9 As I indicated yesterday, the next witness will also have

10 something to say about the time of death. She is the daughter of the

11 deceased, and I anticipate she will say she was present shortly following

12 the shooting, at the scene of the shooting.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since I cannot read B/C/S, could perhaps the

14 interpreters' booth inform us as to whether the original wording which

15 precedes the numbers 16.00 are legible in such a way that they can be

16 translated into -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. As the

18 Defence is obliged to say that the names which we consider to be essential

19 are absolutely illegible. The second page, for the Defence, at least, is

20 more legible, and therefore such a document cannot be admitted, as it

21 doesn't tell us anything. It cannot be identified. So the Defence feels

22 that it cannot be admitted as evidence because we don't know even who it

23 relates to.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I wouldn't say that you can't read

25 anything about the name. I would say that quite some letters of the name

1 are clearly visible. But let's come down to what it's all about.

2 Yesterday, I did understand that in the cross-examination of

3 Mrs. Sahinovic, a lot of questions have been put to her by Ms. Pilipovic

4 regarding the time of the incident. It has not been explained to this

5 Court what actually was at stake at that moment. Was it the reliability

6 of the witness? Because she said it was in the afternoon, between 2.00

7 and 3.00. If the numbers on this document would indicate that death was

8 at 1600 hours, then of course the reliability question would be: Who is

9 reliable or what is reliable? Was the witness reliable or was the

10 document you presented to the witness reliable? But it also could be that

11 it's the case of the Defence that death was at 1900 hours. I do not know

12 what's the position of the Defence. I'd like to have it clarified. And

13 then perhaps the last issue is whether -- let me first ask you what the

14 Defence's position is. Was it that the neighbour of Mrs. Sahinovic died

15 at a later time, or that she did not die at all, or that the witness is

16 not reliable as far as the time of the death is concerned? What's your

17 position?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

19 giving us the floor. The position of the Defence is as follows, simply,

20 and it is based on a matter of principle, which is more important than the

21 question of time: Can we accept the tendering of a document when we can't

22 even read the name that the document allegedly refers to? This is very

23 important.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm asking you not about admission

25 into evidence, because that's what you said already, but before any

1 tendering into evidence is there, we also have to consider the relevance

2 of this document, and the relevance is related to what the case of the

3 Defence is. So let's not talk at this moment about the document. I would

4 like to know what is the position of the Defence, and I gave a few

5 possible options before, and I'd like to know that.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence

7 submitted a clear document, which is a police report. That police report

8 clearly mentions the name of the witnesses, which is legible, and a time,

9 1900 hours. Therefore, we believe that that time, based on an official

10 document, is the real time. We believe it is up to the Prosecution to

11 prove the opposite, if they wish to do so, but with a legible document.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So the position of the Defence is that on the basis

13 of an official document, that the neighbour of Mrs. Sahinovic died at 1900

14 hours, or up to 1930 hours; is that true?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is what appears to

16 emanate from a document that we tendered, yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But my question is whether the Defence -- it's

18 the position of the Defence that that's the time of the death. I mean, I

19 just want to know, because if you say --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I understand your question,

21 Your Honour. General Galic did not give this order, and the Defence

22 doesn't know when this person may have died. All we know is what we know

23 from an official document, and that is 1900 hours, as it is a police

24 document. We were not there, General Galic was not there, and he did not

25 give such an order.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we have -- we do not just have a

2 police document; we have a witness statement and we have a police document

3 which seems to contradict each other. My first question was whether it's

4 part of the case of the Defence that death took place at 1900 hours. Is

5 that the case of the Defence?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in answer to

7 that question, I must repeat that we don't know. We just assume that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: What is, in the case of the Defence, the relevance

9 exactly, of the time 1500 hours, 1600 hours, 1900 hours? What's the

10 relevance of the issue?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can say now we are going to

12 produce shortly a certain number of documents which will show that at a

13 certain period of the day, fierce battles took place in Sarajevo on the

14 6th of June, 1994, I think, if I'm not mistaken. So it is important to

15 know exactly when this witness could have died in relation to these

16 combats, these battles.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, it was the Chamber itself which ordered

20 the production of a death certificate. On the other hand, we have a copy

21 in front of us which is -- well, shows some shortcomings as far as

22 legibility is concerned. So for the time being, if there's no better copy

23 at this moment, the Chamber will withdraw the order, which of course

24 leaves totally open whether at a later stage this document or the original

25 of this document could be explained by any other witness we'll see then.

1 So I don't know whether you want us to decide upon the admissibility or

2 that you withdraw the tendering.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'll withdraw the tender, at least by

4 seeking to tender it in the context of evidence of the deceased's

5 husband. We can overcome the issue of whether the document relates to the

6 deceased. Mr. President, yesterday this issue arose in the context of the

7 Defence seeking to tender the police report. I don't know whether there's

8 been a ruling yet on that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: No, there is not yet.

10 MR. IERACE: But I don't object to the tender of the police

11 report. I say that because the way the reading appeared in the

12 transcript, and the way I heard it in English in my headphones, was that

13 it referred to one round, whereas the document makes clear that there were

14 two rounds causing death. So by tendering the document, it's clear that

15 the official police report did not suggest there was only one round

16 involved. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. So you have withdrawn the

18 tender of the -- of a document, which seems to be a death certificate, at

19 least a copy of a death certificate. Then I feel that there will be no

20 necessity to recall Mrs. Sahinovic. We'll refrain from that, then. So

21 then the examination of Mrs. Sahinovic has been finished.

22 Madam Registrar, there will certainly be a way of informing her

23 that the Chamber is still as grateful as expressed yesterday for coming to

24 The Hague, but that there are no additional questions to be put to her.

25 Then we have to decide upon the admissibility of the documents

1 tendered. Could you please indicate which these documents or objects

2 are.

3 THE REGISTRAR: The 360 degree Quicktime movie, P3279K; the

4 videotape, P3280K; the enlarged photograph, P3279KK; and the police report

5 in B/C/S, D42; the English translation, D42.1.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And to avoid whatever misunderstanding, the

7 lower part of D42.1 seems to be the English translation of a medical

8 documentation which is not part of the evidence admitted. But with this

9 restriction, the documents are admitted.

10 And I think it's time for the Prosecution to call its next

11 witness.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I call Vahida Zametica.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Can you hear me?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: What I say to you is translated to you in a language

17 you understand?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Miss Zametica, before giving evidence, the Rules

20 require you to make a solemn declaration. The text of this declaration

21 will be handed out to you by the usher. I invite you to make that solemn

22 declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

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1 Miss Zametica, the order in this courtroom in which you appear now

2 is that you'll first be examined by the counsel for the Prosecution, and

3 then once finished, you'll be examined by counsel for the Defence, and if

4 there are any additional questions or any in between questions, the Bench

5 also may ask you questions.

6 So I'll first now give you, Mr. Ierace, the opportunity to examine

7 the witness.

8 If you do not understand anything or if something is not clear to

9 you, just tell me, and we'll help you.

10 WITNESS: VAHIDA ZAMETICA

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

13 Q. Is your name Vahida Zametica?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you born on 12th of March, 1977?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In 1992, were you living in Sarajevo?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In which part of Sarajevo were you living in early 1992?

20 A. In early 1992, this was the airport -- settlement around the

21 airport, and then we moved to Dobrinja II.

22 Q. Approximately when did you move to Dobrinja II?

23 A. In May 1992.

24 Q. What was the address that you moved to?

25 A. It was Oktobarske Revolucije Street, number 17.

1 Q. Was that an apartment building?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you know someone by the name of Sadija Sahinovic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was she living in the same apartment building?

6 A. She was.

7 Q. After the armed conflict broke out in Sarajevo in 1992, did you

8 continue to live at that address?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who lived in the apartment with you?

11 A. In 1992?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. My father, my brother, and my mother, and myself, of course.

14 Q. What was your mother's first name?

15 A. Munira.

16 Q. After the conflict broke out, did you and your family experience

17 any difficulties in obtaining water in your apartment?

18 A. Yes, we did.

19 Q. Indeed, was there any running water in your apartment during the

20 conflict?

21 A. No. There was no electricity and there was no water. We had

22 nothing. So we had to go and fetch water in other parts of Dobrinja in

23 order to get water that we could drink, in order we could use in the

24 household.

25 Q. In 1993, where did your family obtain drinking water?

1 A. For drinking, we were getting from the settlement C5 and from

2 Dobrinja, and the household water we would fetch in Dobrinja.

3 Q. Whereabouts -- withdraw that. When you say "C5," is that a part

4 of Dobrinja or not?

5 A. Yes, it is a part of Dobrinja.

6 Q. I think Dobrinja is sometimes referred to in sections such as

7 Dobrinja I, Dobrinja II and so on. In what part of Dobrinja was C5?

8 A. Dobrinja has five parts, and then two additional parts that we

9 call C4 and C5.

10 Q. Whereabouts in Dobrinja C5 was the source of the drinking water?

11 A. There was one house, and near that house, there was a pump, and

12 that's where we went to fetch water.

13 Q. Do you remember the name of the street where that house was

14 located?

15 A. Yes. This was Aleja Bosne Srebrene Street. Sorry, this is a new

16 name. It is Branka Bujica Street.

17 Q. Now, when your family obtained water from that site, did it

18 involve any waiting in order to get access to the pump?

19 A. Yes, sometimes we had to wait some 10 or 12 hours to have our turn

20 to get the water.

21 Q. That being the case, were there other sources of water for laundry

22 purposes?

23 A. Yes. For washing -- water for washing, we would either collect

24 rain water or fetch it in the river.

25 Q. Which river?

1 A. This is the Dobrinja River.

2 Q. How far was the river from your apartment?

3 A. Some 100, 150 metres.

4 Q. Were you able to see the river from your apartment?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was there a particular part of the river that your family would

7 use to collect water?

8 A. Yes. This was an area where the bridge is.

9 Q. Do you know the name of the street that passes over the bridge?

10 A. No, it doesn't really have a name. It's called -- it's a bridge

11 which connects Dobrinja II and Dobrinja III.

12 Q. Did you ever accompany -- withdraw that.

13 Who within your family would usually collect the water from the

14 river?

15 A. Usually my mother, my brother, and myself went.

16 Q. When you went to collect water from the river near the bridge, did

17 you ever experience what appeared to be shooting aimed at your area?

18 A. Yes, on many occasions.

19 Q. Was there an occasion when your mother was indeed shot at that

20 place?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was the date?

23 A. It was 11th of June, 1993.

24 Q. Which month was it?

25 A. July.

1 Q. Having regard to your birth date, you were then 16 years of age;

2 is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where were you when you first learned that your mother had been

5 shot?

6 A. I was very near the bridge, at a construction site, with my

7 friends.

8 Q. How did you learn that your mother was shot?

9 A. A friend of mine was running, and she was shouting, "Vaha's mother

10 has been wounded." And she was running from the bridge towards us,

11 towards the building, and she was saying, "Vaha's mother has been

12 injured."

13 Q. Your name is Vahida. Who did you understand to mean by Vaha?

14 A. My brother's name is Vahid, and his nickname is Vaha, so I knew

15 that this was about my mother.

16 Q. What time was that?

17 A. About 2.00, half past 2.00.

18 Q. What was the name of your friend who said those words?

19 A. Aida Hodovic.

20 Q. Did you speak to her?

21 A. No. We were friends, but we never spoke about it.

22 Q. At the time that she said, "Vaha's mother is wounded," did you

23 speak to her?

24 A. No. I ran to the bridge.

25 Q. What did you see when you arrived at the bridge?

1 A. I saw my mother lying down.

2 Q. Whereabouts?

3 A. She was lying on the edge of the river, in fact, in the riverbed

4 itself.

5 Q. Did she appear to be conscious or unconscious?

6 A. I thought she was conscious, and I had a feeling that she was

7 still twitching.

8 Q. Did you notice anything about her by way of a wound or wounds?

9 A. No. I only noticed blood.

10 Q. Whereabouts was the blood?

11 A. The blood was coming out of her mouth.

12 Q. Were her eyes open or closed?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. You said that she was lying down on the edge of the river.

15 Whereabouts was she in relation to the bridge? How far was she from the

16 bridge, approximately?

17 A. It's just under the bridge.

18 Q. Did you notice any other people around at that time?

19 A. Yes. There were other people around.

20 Q. Whereabouts were they?

21 A. In one protected part of the bridge.

22 Q. Protected from what direction?

23 A. From the direction of the church.

24 Q. When you say "church," which church do you mean?

25 A. I mean the Orthodox church, which is located in Dobrinja and Catra

1 [phoen].

2 Q. Which part of Dobrinja?

3 A. Dobrinja IV, that is, Lukavica. That's the direction.

4 Q. Did you see or hear any signs of shooting?

5 A. Yes, there was shooting the whole time in that area where my

6 mother was shot.

7 Q. At the time that you saw your mother lying beside the river, did

8 you see or hear any signs of shooting?

9 A. Yes, the entire time, so my mother could not be pulled to a safer

10 area.

11 Q. From what direction or directions could you hear the sound of

12 shooting come from?

13 A. From the direction of the church. There was shooting the entire

14 time.

15 Q. Could you see any signs of shooting?

16 A. Yes. You could see the bullets falling in the water. You could

17 hear it.

18 Q. Did anyone assist your mother?

19 A. They tried to, but they couldn't do it, because there was

20 continual shooting.

21 Q. What happened after that?

22 A. I was then taken away and I did not see anything. While I was

23 there, they were not able to take my mother out.

24 Q. What was the weather like at that stage?

25 A. It was a fine day, and on that day I was in a T-shirt with short

1 sleeves. It was a sunny day.

2 Q. What clothing was your mother wearing at that time?

3 A. I only remember that she was wearing a brown skirt.

4 Q. How old was your mother when she died?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Approximately.

7 A. Forty-six, forty-seven, approximately. I never thought about it.

8 Q. You've told us that you had experienced shooting in that area

9 previously, that is, shots being aimed at that area whilst you were

10 there. Do you know where that shooting came from on previous occasions,

11 shooting that was received in the area of the bridge and the river?

12 A. It was always from the direction of the church.

13 Q. On which side of the confrontation lines was the church on the day

14 that your mother was killed?

15 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question?

16 Q. Yes. I'll rephrase it. During the conflict, there were opposing

17 armies; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And was there in Dobrinja, at the date of your mother's death, a

20 confrontation line between the two armies?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you live on the side of the confrontation line that was

23 occupied by the Bosnian government army?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was the other army the Bosnian Serb army?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which army occupied the Orthodox church on the date of your

3 mother's death?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't believe

6 that I heard anyone say that a church was occupied, so I cannot see that

7 an army would occupy a church. Therefore, I object to this question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please rephrase the question, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE:

10 Q. Which army -- on which side of the confrontation line was the

11 orthodox church on the date that your mother was killed?

12 A. The orthodox church was under the control of the Bosnian Serbs.

13 Q. Now, you have told us earlier that there was a place in Dobrinja V

14 where you and your family would collect drinking water. Did something

15 happen at that place the day after your mother was killed?

16 A. It wasn't in Dobrinja V but in the C5 settlement, yes. After my

17 mother was killed in the C5 settlement, a shell hit that settlement and

18 many people were killed. And this is where we went most frequently to get

19 our drinking water. Among other people, a relative was killed on that day

20 as well as a friend of mine.

21 Q. When you say that a shell hit that settlement, whereabouts in the

22 settlement did the shell land?

23 A. It landed on the location where we went to fetch the water. This

24 was in the vicinity of the pump.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown

1 Exhibit P3279KK. That's the photograph which was tendered into evidence

2 through the previous witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Usher, would you give that photograph to

4 the witness.

5 I assume you would like to have it on the ELMO, Mr. Ierace?

6 MR. IERACE: Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please put it on the ELMO. Perhaps turn it to

8 the witness. Turn the ELMO to the witness --

9 MR. IERACE: Perhaps it might be taken away again, Mr. President.

10 I ask that it be withdrawn.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please take it from the

12 ELMO again.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have an unmarked copy.

14 JUDGE ORIE: A fresh one.

15 MR. IERACE: It has some fold marks on it, but I think it will do

16 for present purposes. Perhaps that could be flattened and placed on the

17 ELMO.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. IERACE:

20 Q. Miss Zametica, do you recognise what appears in the photograph

21 before you?

22 A. Yes, this is the riverbed of the Dobrinja River.

23 Q. You have mentioned in your evidence a church. Do you see that

24 particular church anywhere in the photograph before you?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Would you please take a blue marker pen and circle the church.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. When you went to the river to collect water, how did you feel in

4 terms of your personal safety?

5 A. During the war, whatever you did in Dobrinja, wherever you went,

6 you knew that your life was in danger.

7 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

8 Mr. President, that concludes the examination-in-chief. The

9 photograph that the witness has now marked I think will require a fresh

10 exhibit number.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine

14 the witness?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Zametica, you will now be questioned by

17 Ms. Pilipovic, who is Defence counsel.

18 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Vahida, good morning. Could you tell us

20 whether in the course of year 2000 and 2001, you spoke to the

21 investigators of the Prosecutor's office and gave a statement?

22 A. Yes, I gave a statement last year.

23 Q. So I will remind you, this was on the 21st of June, 2001?

24 A. I do not know the exact date.

25 Q. Thank you. Do you remember before that date, did you speak to the

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1 investigators of the Prosecutor's office?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. When you say that you did not, do you mean that somebody else from

4 your family gave a statement?

5 A. My father went to these interviews; I did not.

6 Q. And your brother?

7 A. My brother went to speak after me.

8 Q. You signed this statement, and you signed. And by this signature

9 you said that this was a true statement to what you said to the

10 investigators?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 Witness, you told us that from 1992, from May, you have been

14 living in Dobrinja II?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Today at the question of my learned colleague, you said that

17 Dobrinja had five parts?

18 A. Yes, Dobrinja has five parts as well as settlements C4 and C5.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

20 the Defence has the copy of the map of Sarajevo, and we have already shown

21 to witnesses this map before, or parts of this map. So we would like to

22 have the witness explain five parts. And if you'll allow me, I would like

23 to show the witness the map, and perhaps the witness could show us on the

24 map exactly Dobrinja I, II, III, IV, and V, as she sees it, so that I can

25 ask her questions later in relation to this.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Is it your intention to tender that map, or is it --

2 you use the map already admitted into evidence.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 Your Honour, the Defence will ask this to be admitted into

5 evidence, but this part of the map has never been shown to the witnesses

6 before but other parts. I've made enough copies of this part of the map,

7 and my colleagues have this. Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you collect the copies of the map,

9 put one on the ELMO for the ...

10 THE REGISTRAR: This map will be given the number D43.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, in front of you, you have a part of the map of Sarajevo

13 with -- which includes the part called Dobrinja. Can you see it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you -- on the map with a black marker, can you indicate on the

16 map parts of Dobrinja and the settlements C4 and C5, if you can?

17 A. I can, but the map isn't very clear to me. I can go perhaps part

18 by part, because I need some time to get my bearings as regards the map.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 Witness, please tell us which street is in the part that you refer

21 to as Dobrinja --

22 JUDGE ORIE: The witness was just concentrating on putting C4 and

23 the next number on the map, and she told us that she would need some time

24 to figure it out precisely. So if you would first let her finish what she

25 was doing.

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I apologise.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Might I clarify what appears on the map as apparently

4 a marker. Is that C4?

5 JUDGE ORIE: What I see now is that the witness just has put C4 on

6 the map.

7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: She marked that, and I think the question was whether

9 she could mark C4 and C5. And I thought she was looking for where to put

10 the C5.

11 Just take your time, Miss Zametica.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot see the river on the map,

13 which would help me orient myself. Can someone show me where the river

14 is, so I can use it as a reference point?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. There's a very dark line crossing Dobrinja, and at the corner,

17 where you can see Karla Street, you can see the -- it is the corner of

18 Lukavicka cesta, to the right. The line you see there is the river.

19 A. Lukavicka cesta is a street; it's not a river.

20 JUDGE ORIE: For the orientation of the witness, did I see that

21 you have a colour copy? So please provide that to the witness. We all

22 know that --

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Ms. Zametica,

25 you'll be asked to put your markings on the copy. But just for your

1 orientation, since on the original map there are some colours, you may be

2 better able to orient yourself, since -- on these colours, also blue

3 colour of a river on it, what might be of a river. But you have to mark

4 on the other one. I'm sorry. Perhaps you may put them next to each other

5 and look at the coloured copy and ...

6 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

7 JUDGE ORIE: I did see you marking "C4," "C5." Would that be

8 Dobrinja C4 and C5?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I consider them to be settlements,

10 as being part of Dobrinja. Whenever I speak about this, I always say

11 "Dobrinja C4" or "5."

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Since you have marked this in this particular way, can you please

14 draw the river to make things clearer to the Chamber, and also the

15 bridges, and if you can find your way around on the map.

16 A. The river is here.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you indicate the bridge connecting Dobrinja II and

18 III?

19 A. Well, I can't really see it on the map. I would need a more

20 detailed map.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness. Can you tell me how many bridges are there in

22 the Dobrinja settlement over the river Dobrinja?

23 A. Just a moment, please. May I get a piece of paper, please, so I

24 can concentrate properly? Not along the entire river of Dobrinja, but

25 only the part near Dobrinja.

1 Q. You said there were five bridges.

2 A. There is also a sixth bridge that connects this settlement,

3 Mahala, and Dobrinja V.

4 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, looking towards the church, how many

5 bridges are there between the church and Dobrinja II and III?

6 A. From where?

7 Q. From the church, in the direction of Dobrinja.

8 A. I was never at the church.

9 Q. From your bridge, in the direction of the church, how many bridges

10 are there?

11 A. How many I can see?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I can see three bridges, and here where I'm standing is the fourth

14 bridge.

15 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what the distance is between the

16 fourth bridge, your fourth bridge, in the direction of the church?

17 A. So the bridge from where I am? I don't know the distance.

18 Q. Thank you. During 1993, when the tragic incident occurred when

19 you lost your mother, you lived in Dobrinja II?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you have to cross the bridge to get water?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. For drinking water?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you were going for water for other purposes from the river,

1 did you have to cross the bridge then?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Can you tell us, with reference to Dobrinja II, where you were

4 living, where the hospital is located? Is it in your part of the town or

5 is it some other part of the town?

6 A. It is immediately across from my building.

7 Q. In other words, the hospital of Dobrinja is located in the

8 Dobrinja II settlement?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Today you have shown us on Exhibit 3279KK, you have indicated the

11 location of the church.

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would like to ask

14 the witness a few questions with reference to the map in order to be able

15 to identify certain objects, certain buildings or parts on the map. Can

16 my -- if my colleagues from the Prosecution agree, we could perhaps use

17 the other map, the one where you can see better, the one that the witness

18 has been using.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I do not exactly understand what map you're referring

20 to now.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has map

22 3279KK, but my colleagues, for the sake of clarity, have provided a map in

23 colour, which is on the same scale, where it --

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... translated as

25 "map," but I do understand that you're talking about photos.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No. I'm speaking about photos.

2 That may --

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... as far as the

4 translation was concerned.

5 Yes, please, then, Madam Registrar.

6 But there can be no markings on it, as you'll understand,

7 Ms. Pilipovic, since they have already been admitted into evidence.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence will

10 provide the map. It is the same map, 3279. So as not to mark on the same

11 map, we would like the witness to mark the buildings by the church. I

12 apologise again. I said "map" instead of "photograph."

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then "VZ" would have to be used, because -- yes.

14 THE REGISTRAR: P3279VZ.

15 JUDGE ORIE: But -- yes. Madam Registrar, would it be confusing

16 later on to have a "P" number for a photo that has been tendered by the

17 Defence? VZ is --

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: I made a mistake. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

20 Still markings can be made on the P3279VZ.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, with a black marker now. Would you

23 please, Mr. Usher, take care that there's only a black marker around at

24 this very moment.

25 Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Witness, on the photograph, you have marked the church in

3 Lukavica.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us now from what position has this part of the river

6 been taken, been shot?

7 A. Under the bridge, where my mother was killed.

8 Q. The buildings that you can see behind the bridge on this

9 photograph, which are parallel with the church, as we can see from the

10 photo, can you tell us what part of Dobrinja it is?

11 A. It is Dobrinja II. This part is Dobrinja II and this is Dobrinja

12 III.

13 Q. You first marked the buildings that are located on the left and

14 right bank of the river.

15 A. The left-hand side is Dobrinja III and the right-hand side is

16 Dobrinja II.

17 Q. The buildings that you see at the very bottom of the photo near

18 the church, viewing from the left side of the church, can you tell us what

19 part of Dobrinja it is?

20 A. It is Dobrinja II. The street is Avde Cuka.

21 Q. Can you mark the buildings with a circle, please.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. You're saying that these buildings are in the Dobrinja II

24 settlement?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. During the conflict, can you tell us - and you have already marked

2 the parts of Dobrinja - which parts of Dobrinja were under the control of

3 the B and H army and which parts were under the control of the VRS?

4 A. The Avde Cuka Street was under the control of the B and H army,

5 and a hundred metres further was under the control of the other side, of

6 the Bosnian Serbs.

7 Q. Can you tell us whether these buildings that you have marked as

8 Dobrinja II, whether those buildings were under the control of the BH army

9 or the VRS?

10 A. I think it was the BH army.

11 Q. From the bridge which you used, could you see -- were you able to

12 see the position which resembles the position that you can see from the

13 photo?

14 A. No. It's different from when you look -- when you are on the

15 bridge and when you're under the bridge.

16 Q. In other words, the position of the buildings and the churches on

17 this photo can be seen if you are under the bridge?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us what can be seen in the direction of the church

20 and Dobrinja II when you are on the bridge, if you know?

21 A. Yes, I know, but I don't know how to explain it.

22 Q. From the bridge, can you see the buildings in the same position

23 and the church, or you can only see the buildings?

24 A. The church can -- looks directly on to the bridge when you are on

25 the bridge.

1 Q. Now, when you observe the buildings from the bridge, can you see

2 them?

3 A. Yes. You can see the buildings, too.

4 Q. Can you tell us, during the duration of the conflict and while you

5 were living in Dobrinja in the years 1992, 1993, were there -- was there

6 fighting going on in Dobrinja?

7 A. In the settlement of Dobrinja, no. I don't quite understand your

8 question.

9 Q. You are telling us that in Dobrinja where you were living, there

10 was no armed clashes, there were no armed clashes and fighting, no

11 shooting?

12 A. There was constantly -- well, in the area where the BH army was,

13 there was no mutual clash.

14 Q. Now, you have just said in the area where the BH army was. Do you

15 know where the headquarters, the staff of the BH army was in Dobrinja?

16 A. The staff specifically, I can assume in the area of Dobrinja II.

17 Q. In Dobrinja II where you were living?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was this near your home?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was it near the hospital?

22 A. Not quite near the hospital. All the buildings are very close

23 together, so there is not a great distance.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 On that day when the incident took place when your mother was

1 killed, while you were on the bridge and when you were approaching the

2 area where your mother was lying, amongst the people you could see around,

3 could you see any soldiers?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it may be a translation issue, but the

7 question just asked includes the words "while you were on the bridge" and

8 "when you were approaching the area."

9 A. I couldn't have been on the bridge.

10 MR. IERACE: Yes, I don't think that the witness to date has said

11 that she was on the bridge.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you then rephrase the question, please,

13 Ms. Pilipovic.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will be more

15 precise.

16 Q. Witness, how near were you in respect of the position of your

17 mother when you came and you saw your mother?

18 A. About 3 metres maximum.

19 Q. So this was under the bridge?

20 A. Yes. She was lying in this particular area.

21 Q. So when you were approaching -- amongst the people that were

22 there, you said that it was the area under the bridge. Could you see --

23 near the bridge or under the bridge, see any soldiers?

24 A. No, there were only women who had gone to fetch water, and

25 children.

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1 Q. Thank you.

2 You said that you didn't stay there, didn't stop there for long?

3 A. I don't know how long.

4 Q. Can you tell us that when you left, your brother was still there?

5 A. My brother was there all the time.

6 Q. Did you learn from your brother later on whether soldiers were

7 located in the area where your mother was killed and when the shooting

8 took place?

9 A. I never discussed this with my brother.

10 Q. Thank you for your answer.

11 Can you tell us how frequently you went to this area to fetch

12 water?

13 A. Almost daily, or every other day, depending on how much water we

14 needed on that particular day.

15 Q. Following that incident, did you go and fetch water?

16 A. Yes. We had to.

17 Q. Can you tell us -- in 1993, in the month of July, can you tell us

18 whether the bridge had been secured?

19 A. Yes. It had some kind of protection.

20 Q. Can you explain this more specifically. What sort of protection?

21 A. Well, there were bags there.

22 Q. Can you tell us who put those bags there?

23 A. I can't remember.

24 Q. During 1992, 1993, 1994, did you see soldiers in Dobrinja in those

25 years?

1 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the answer.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Can you tell us what they were wearing?

4 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms.

5 Q. Were they armed?

6 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters could not hear the answer to the

7 question. Would you please repeat it.

8 The question was that, "During 1992, 1993, 1994, did you see

9 soldiers in Dobrinja in those years?" Your answer to that question could

10 not be understood by the interpreters. Could you please repeat it.

11 A. Yes, I could see soldiers.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And the next question you are about to answer was

13 "Can you tell us what they were wearing?" And I think you answered

14 already that they were wearing camouflage uniforms. Yes?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. Were the soldiers armed?

19 A. Some yes, some no.

20 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: For the second time, my friend has asked a question

23 which encompasses the years 1992, 1993, 1994, first in relation to

24 uniforms and then in relation to being armed. It's nonspecific and in its

25 present form is not particularly probative, and may mislead.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic. We know that things might have

2 changed over the years. Could you please be more precise in your

3 question.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I will be precise, Your Honour.

5 Q. From May 1992. From the time when you came with your family to

6 Dobrinja, from May 1992, 1993, 1994 August, did you in that period of time

7 see soldiers in Dobrinja?

8 A. Well, as you have been told, changes -- times were changing in

9 1992 and 1993 and 1994.

10 Q. Can you perhaps be more specific and tell us what were the

11 characteristic features of those years?

12 A. In 1992, we were attacked, and the army had not organised in that

13 year. Then we were able to see people wearing weapons. In 1993, we

14 couldn't see them. And in 1994, especially not.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 Can you tell us with reference to Dobrinja II where you used to

17 live, how far were the front lines located in reference to where you were

18 living? Do you know that?

19 A. Very close. Not very far.

20 Q. When you say "very close," what does that imply? Can you --

21 A. Well, close enough to be able to snipe at us every day and to kill

22 us.

23 Q. In 1993, would you see armed soldiers in uniform in Dobrinja?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know whether those soldiers went to the front lines?

1 A. I couldn't say.

2 Q. Were you in a position to see those soldiers shooting?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you have occasion during the conflict from May 1992 through

5 1993 and 1994 to see soldiers of the army of Republika Srpska?

6 A. In 1992 when we left C4 where I lived, we were expelled by the

7 army of Republika Srpska.

8 Q. Can you tell us how they were dressed?

9 A. I don't remember. That was a long time ago.

10 Q. When you came to Dobrinja II to live, you came to an apartment and

11 a building that was empty, or did you live with someone inside?

12 A. No. We moved into an empty apartment because we had been expelled

13 from our own house in 1992.

14 Q. Do you know who lived in that apartment then?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you tell us of what ethnic origin those people are?

17 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President, on the basis of relevance --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. IERACE: -- of these questions which we heard yesterday of

20 another witness. They are simply not probative of any issue before the

21 Trial Chamber.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell us what the relevance of your

23 questions is?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this question is

25 relevant, in our opinion, because the Defence feels that in the

1 cross-examination, the witness can provide information to the Defence

2 which is relevant for the Defence of General Galic. We have just heard

3 that the -- the witness tell us that they were expelled from a part of

4 Dobrinja.

5 My question was to which part of Dobrinja they went, to which

6 apartment, and who used to live there, for us to have a grasp of the

7 situation in 1992 in the part of the city of Sarajevo, in this case

8 Dobrinja, because it is the submission of the Defence that the population

9 moved from one part of the city to another, resettled, in fact. And the

10 witness is telling us that when the armed conflict broke out, a part of

11 the population left one part of town to a safer part of town, whereas

12 other groups of the population -- we heard from Sadija Sahinovic that she

13 moved into a Serb apartment, all of which shows that the population in the

14 course of 1992 was moving from one part of the city to another. And it is

15 our submission that through the examination of this witness, we may obtain

16 relevant information.

17 I just have one more question in this area, and that is whether

18 the witness knows whose apartment they moved into. With your permission,

19 Your Honour, that would be my next question.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is the specific name of the owner of any

21 relevance, or do you seek to establish that the apartment was owned by

22 someone who was of a different ethnic origin?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, just that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please ask, then? I'll ask the witness.

25 Could you tell us, when you moved into the apartment in Dobrinja

1 II, are you aware of whether this apartment was owned by someone of

2 Serbian origin or Croatian origin or Muslim origin?

3 A. I believe it was someone of Serb ethnicity.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That answers your question, Ms. Pilipovic?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That also concludes the cross-examination? I'm

7 looking at the -- not only at the clock but also at my --

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any need for re-examination, apart

10 from whether we'll do it right away?

11 MR. IERACE: Just one question.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Just one question. I think we'll preferably then put

13 this question, then, to the witness at this moment.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

16 Q. Ms. Zametica, you were asked whether in 1992, 1993, 1994, the

17 soldiers that you saw in Dobrinja wore uniforms, and you replied that they

18 wore camouflage uniforms. Did that apply to all of those years or some of

19 those years or part of one year?

20 A. At the beginning of the war, they didn't all have camouflage

21 uniforms. Afterwards, they started wearing uniforms, and those camouflage

22 uniforms in principle are all very similar.

23 MR. IERACE: No further questions, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Zametica, the Bench has no further questions to

25 you. You've answered all the questions put to you by Defence counsel and

1 by the Prosecution. This Court is fully aware of how painful it must have

2 been for you to be confronted with a lot of questions about an event in

3 which your mother died, and we feel that it was courageous for you to come

4 and be confronted with it, especially since the event took place when you

5 were only 16 years old. We are fully aware of that. We are especially

6 grateful that you came because, as you will also understand, that this

7 Court needs to hear the answers of the witnesses that are called by the

8 parties in order to take its decisions which this Court will have to take

9 as good as possible. Thank you very, very much for coming, and I wish you

10 a safe trip home again.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We will now adjourn. So this ends the examination.

13 We will not see each other again. We'll have a break now.

14 Ms. Pilipovic, you're standing, or just preparing for the break?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, just preparing myself.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll do the admissions of documents, we'll do

17 that after the break, and we'll adjourn until 5 minutes past 11.00.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I do apologise for starting a bit later. The reason

22 was that I immediately paid attention to what has been raised by

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I received a copy of the letter sent to Ms. Pilipovic

24 by Christian Rohde. I do understand that there is some dispute as far as

25 the remuneration of activities of counsel is concerned. I also read the

1 last line of this letter: "Please do not hesitate to contact my office

2 should you have any further questions or comments on this matter."

3 That means that what is presented as a decision might not be the

4 final outcome of the dispute at this moment. Therefore, I would suggest

5 that, first of all, if what's written in the letter of Mr. Rohde is

6 considered to be unfair, that Ms. Pilipovic explains to Mr. Rohde why it

7 is unfair. Apart from that, there are procedures governing any dispute on

8 invoices presented to the Registry. I think we can expect Ms. Pilipovic

9 to use these procedures whenever necessary. On the other hand, the

10 Chamber is aware that these kind of disputes between Defence counsel and

11 the Registry might finally have some impact on the fairness of the trial.

12 I'll take care that the Chamber will be informed in detail about whatever

13 happens in these kind of disputes in order to have a good idea on where

14 the discussion is not about efficiency any more but enters the area of the

15 fairness of the trial. That's what I'd like to say about it at this very

16 moment.

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very

19 much for the remarks you have made, and thank you for devoting your time

20 to this problem. As the Defence expected that you would do that, we have

21 already contacted Mr. Fourmy to raise this issue, and it will certainly be

22 the subject of a meeting that we will have in the course of this week. I

23 wish to thank you once again.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although, as I indicated, the first one you

25 should address to is Mr. Rohde and the Registry but, of course, if you

1 say, "We want to explain to Mr. Fourmy how this also affects the fairness

2 of the trial," of course we'll have -- we'll listen to that and we'll look

3 at this as well. But as I told you, it's not always easy to assess where

4 efficiency of counsel activities ends and where the fairness of the trial

5 becomes at stake. But we'll give it proper attention.

6 Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage I think we have one

8 Defence exhibit to be tendered.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have -- it's good that you remind me,

10 because we still have the photograph P3279VZ, if I'm right, Madam

11 Registrar. Yes. Since there's no objection, it's admitted into evidence.

12 Then I think that we are -- oh, yes. We still have the map. I

13 had better leave it to you, Madam Registrar, because you're doing it far

14 better than I could do it.

15 THE REGISTRAR: The map marked by the witness is D43.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, Mr. Mundis will take the next few

18 Prosecution witnesses. With your leave, may I be excused from the Trial

19 Chamber during those witnesses?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 Please, Mr. Mundis. Who will be the next witness you call?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the next witness for the Prosecution

23 is Sanija Dzevlan.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please, Mr. Usher, would you lead the witness

25 into the courtroom.

1 MR. MUNDIS: For the benefit of the Trial Chamber and the Defence,

2 this witness will be testifying with respect to scheduled sniping incident

3 number 18.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand,

6 Ms. Dzevlan?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... The Rules of

9 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration. The text

10 of this declaration is still in the hands of the usher. He'll give it to

11 you. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

15 I'd like to welcome you in this courtroom. The order of

16 examination is that you'll first be examined by counsel for the

17 Prosecution, then be questioned by counsel for the Defence; and if there

18 are any additional questions by the Bench, they will be put to you as

19 well.

20 So I'll first now give the opportunity to you, Mr. Mundis, to

21 examine the witness.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 WITNESS: SANIJA DZEVLAN

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

1 Q. Witness, for the record, will you please state your full name and

2 provide your date of birth.

3 A. My name is Sanija Dzevlan. I was born on the 27th of February,

4 1961.

5 Q. Witness, in which city do you reside?

6 A. In Sarajevo.

7 Q. How long have you lived in Sarajevo?

8 A. Since my birth.

9 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how life in the

10 city changed once the war started in Bosnia?

11 A. Well, life changed in the sense that we had no water or

12 electricity or heating or food.

13 Q. When did the war start in Sarajevo?

14 A. The war started, as far as I can recollect, in April 1992.

15 Q. Shortly after that time period, did the city become divided

16 between two competing armed forces?

17 A. Yes, very shortly after that. After the first barricades, the

18 city was divided.

19 Q. What were the two competing forces that were vying for control of

20 Sarajevo?

21 A. At first, we knew that we were being attacked by the army which --

22 the then army of Yugoslavia which attacked, and -- well, we called it the

23 Patriotic League, which was there. I still didn't know because as far as

24 I knew, there were fathers and brothers who were protecting their

25 families. As far as I know -- we knew that it was the Patriotic League.

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1 Q. Did this group that you've described as the Patriotic League later

2 evolve into the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did the army which you've described as the then army of

5 Yugoslavia, did that force later evolve into the army of the Bosnian Serb

6 Republic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber in general terms how the

9 confrontation lines affected you with respect to your daily life in

10 Sarajevo?

11 A. We were in fear, especially those of us living in Dobrinja,

12 because we were surrounded on all sides. We couldn't move around freely.

13 And for a long time, we were unable to contact other parts of the city

14 because of the encirclement, and then we had to pass through barricades

15 which were very dangerous and where there were many casualties.

16 Q. Which part of Dobrinja did you live in?

17 A. I lived in Dobrinja IIIA.

18 Q. And in Dobrinja IIIA, I'd like to draw your attention first to

19 1992, was Dobrinja IIIA controlled by the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina

20 or by the VRS?

21 A. At the beginning of 1992, the then army of Yugoslavia was passing

22 through in tanks. They were passing right by our buildings. And at the

23 very beginning of the war, a tank some 20 or 30 metres away opened fire on

24 our building. And this went on I think until about the month of June that

25 they passed by our buildings.

1 After that, the Patriotic League succeeded in defending this part

2 of the town in which we lived so that after that they didn't pass by. But

3 the borders were very close by.

4 Q. Approximately how close to the building you lived in were these

5 borders as you've described them?

6 A. You mean at the beginning of the war or ...?

7 Q. Let's say the beginning of 1993.

8 A. From where I lived, the border was 500 or 600 metres away.

9 Q. And was this also, this area where the border was, on the other

10 side of the barrier from you, the border from you, was that controlled by

11 the Bosnian Serb army?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was the name of the area where those Bosnian Serb forces were

14 located?

15 A. You mean which part of town where they were?

16 Q. Were they -- let me try to rephrase the question. Were these

17 Bosnian Serb army forces also in a part of Dobrinja?

18 A. Yes. Yes. The separation line was Dobrinja IIIB and Dobrinja IV,

19 which were separated by a road only.

20 Q. Do you remember the name of that road?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In the latter half of 1992 and onwards, did you become aware of

23 sniping incidents in the Dobrinja neighbourhood?

24 A. Yes, we were aware. At first, there was shooting all over town,

25 and when the lines were established, all of us in town were aware of the

1 danger at certain crossroads. Especially at Dobrinja, one knew exactly

2 where one could walk. There were some barricades put up as protection

3 against sniper fire, so that people could normally move around from one

4 part of Dobrinja to another, because there were certain directions along

5 which they shot.

6 Q. What were these barricades constructed of? What type of

7 barricades were they in Dobrinja?

8 A. Mostly there were bags filled with earth and sand, and in some

9 places there were blankets as protection, and in other places there were

10 containers or metal sheeting.

11 Q. Witness, did there come a time during the conflict when you

12 personally were the victim of a sniper?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall the date of this incident?

15 A. It was the 6th of January, 1994.

16 Q. What were you doing at the time that you were shot?

17 A. That day I had to go to Dobrinja II, because there was a hospital

18 there. My mother was sick and I was going to fetch some medicines for

19 her, and on the way back, I was hit by a sniper bullet.

20 Q. What was the weather like on the day, at the time that you were

21 shot?

22 A. It was January. It was wintertime, but there was no snow. It was

23 cloudy, but visibility was good. It was not as foggy as it can be in

24 Sarajevo. The visibility was relatively good.

25 Q. What time of day was it that you were shot?

1 A. I think it was between 3.00 and 4.00 in the afternoon.

2 Q. Was it still light outside at that time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What were you wearing at the time you were shot?

5 A. I was wearing brown pants and a yellow anorak.

6 Q. Were you wearing any type of clothing that could be considered a

7 military uniform?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you carrying any type of military weapon at the time you were

10 shot?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you see any soldiers or any other people wearing military

13 uniforms in the immediate vicinity at the time you were shot?

14 A. No. At the time I was the only passerby in the vicinity. There

15 was no one else in the vicinity.

16 Q. Did you see any large military equipment or large military weapons

17 in the immediate vicinity at the time you were shot?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You've testified that you had visited your mother at the hospital

20 and you were on your way back. I presume you were on your way back home.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And how were you travelling?

23 A. I was riding a bicycle.

24 Q. Now, prior to the time you were shot, on that day, 6 January 1994,

25 do you recall whether you heard any other gunfire in Dobrinja that day?

1 A. No. There was no shooting. There was no fire. It was

2 particularly calm that day. Mostly when there is shooting, we wouldn't

3 leave our homes if we heard any firing. We had to be very careful, and we

4 wouldn't leave our homes. But on that day it was exceptionally quiet.

5 Q. And where in your body did the bullet strike you?

6 A. Through the buttocks.

7 Q. Do you know how many bullets struck your body?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you recall hearing any other gunfire immediately after you were

10 shot?

11 A. At the moment that I was shot, I didn't even know that I was hit.

12 I could just feel a blow. But I found out that I had been hit after I saw

13 the bullets that were ricochetting from the concrete, and I just continued

14 to ride my bicycle and I managed to get home.

15 Q. When you say that you saw bullets ricochetting from the concrete,

16 would that have been the concrete of the street?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. Approximately how many bullets did you see ricochetting off the

19 street?

20 A. I think there were about three or four.

21 Q. After you noticed that you had been shot, what did you do next?

22 A. I managed to get home, and the people who were there, standing

23 there, they helped me get off the bicycle and they took me to the

24 hospital.

25 Q. Were these people that helped you your neighbours? Did they live

1 in the same building as you did?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did the physicians at the hospital admit you as a patient in the

4 hospital?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Approximately how long did you remain in the hospital?

7 A. I think for about ten days.

8 Q. When you were discharged from the hospital, did the physicians at

9 the hospital provide you with any kind of documents?

10 A. Yes. I was given a discharge document.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be shown

12 what has been marked P3113, which for the benefit of the Registrar and the

13 Chamber is part of the same document previously marked as P3369 by ...

14 Mr. President, my case manager has informed me that this document

15 may not have been in the bundle that was previously admitted, so we will

16 go with the P3113 number.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. MUNDIS:

19 Q. Witness, I would ask you to look at the document that has been

20 placed in front of you. Do you recognise that document?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What is this document?

23 A. This is a letter of discharge which I was given before I left the

24 hospital after the treatment.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, at this time I would ask that the

2 witness be shown the videotape which has been marked as P3280L.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if the technicians could assist us.

4 [Videotape played]

5 "THE INVESTIGATOR: Would you please show me the location of the

6 barricade as closely as you remember it at the time that you were shot.

7 This is a line of yellow paint that I placed upon the pavement as

8 a result of the answer to the same question on the 20th September, 2001.

9 Would you please demonstrate with your hand the area which was not

10 covered by the [Inaudible].

11 We will now cross the street. And if you could please show me

12 [Inaudible] at the time you were struck by the bullet.

13 This is a yellow X that I placed upon the pavement on the 20th of

14 September as a result of the answer to the same question.

15 Would you now please show me with your hand the direction in which

16 you were travelling to the best of your recollection at the time that you

17 were shot.

18 Thank you.

19 It is my understanding that at the same time that you were struck

20 by a bullet, other bullets impacted the pavement. Would you please show

21 me with your hand the direction from which you heard those bullets

22 coming.

23 Thank you."

24 MR. MUNDIS:

25 Q. Witness, did you recognise yourself in that videotape?

1 A. I did.

2 Q. Now, did you, in fact, meet the photographer and investigators on

3 two separate occasions when this videotape was being made?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And on the first occasion when you met with the investigator, did

6 that investigator ask you certain questions?

7 A. Yes, in relation to my wounding.

8 Q. Did the investigator on the first occasion, then, make marks with

9 yellow spray paint on the pavement?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you then return to the same site a few days later and confirm

12 that information to the investigator?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you answer those questions that he put to you to the best of

15 your knowledge and recollection?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when you were asked to come out to this location on the second

18 occasion, did the investigator explain to you that the reason that you had

19 to come back was due to a technical malfunction with the equipment on the

20 first day?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown the 360

23 degree panorama photo which has been marked as P3279L.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Your technician will assist us, Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS:

1 Q. Witness, I would ask you to take a look at the screen in front of

2 you. Do you recognise what's on the screen?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What does that photograph indicate?

5 A. This is the main street. This is a bridge going from Dobrinja II

6 to Dobrinja III.

7 Q. Witness, is this the direction that you were travelling on your

8 bicycle at the time you were shot?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In response to a question from the investigator with respect to

11 where you heard the gunfire coming from, you indicated to the right as

12 you're facing forward. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the photograph be panned to the right,

15 please.

16 That's fine. Thank you.

17 Q. Witness, do you know where the source of the gunfire was that

18 struck you on January 6, 1994?

19 A. I presume that the fire -- the shooting could have been coming

20 from the church that we can see in the background or from Dobrinja IV,

21 which is buildings behind there. And those buildings were on the front

22 lines of the army of Republika Srpska.

23 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the photograph be zoomed in.

24 Q. Witness, you've just mentioned a church. It's rather difficult to

25 see in this photograph --

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- but is that church visible in this photograph?

3 A. Yes, it can.

4 Q. Can you describe in words where the church is visible in this

5 photograph?

6 A. We can see the photograph between those buildings in Dobrinja II,

7 which is behind the corner of the last building. You can see it in the

8 background.

9 Q. Okay, Witness. In the centre of the photograph, there is what

10 appears to be very far in the distance a mountain peak. Do you see that?

11 A. Yes. Yes, that's Mount Trebevic up there.

12 Q. And immediately in front of Mount Trebevic, but much closer to the

13 position where the photographer was standing, is a row of buildings. Do

14 you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, in relation to that row of buildings, can you please tell us

17 where the church is located?

18 A. In that series of buildings on my right-hand side, on the corner,

19 the very end of the right side, you can see the top of the church. It's a

20 little dark.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the photograph be panned to the right.

23 You can zoom out and then pan to the right, please.

24 Stop there, please.

25 Q. Witness, there now appears in the photograph in front of you to be

1 the railings of a bridge. Is that the bridge you had just crossed at the

2 time you were shot?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know what that bridge is crossing?

5 A. The Dobrinja River.

6 Q. Now, Witness, you've also mentioned that there were some

7 barricades that you had passed that were located on the bridge. Can you

8 tell us, looking at this photograph, where those barricades were located?

9 A. Before I was wounded, the barricade was, perhaps, about one metre

10 or half a metre off the bridge, and then along the bridge, and then the

11 same on the other side.

12 Q. That would be the barricades extended the full length of the

13 bridge and then approximately a metre past either end of the bridge?

14 A. Yes, approximately, as far as I can remember.

15 Q. Now, Witness, the part of street that's now visible extending into

16 the background on the right-hand side of the photograph, is that the

17 direction that you were coming from at the time you were shot?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you for completeness.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Let's pan the photograph back to the starting point,

21 please.

22 Thank you.

23 Q. Now, Witness, what part of the city is the church located in that

24 you mentioned?

25 A. The church is located in Dobrinja IV.

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1 Q. And which armed force controlled the area where the church is

2 located?

3 A. The army of Republika Srpska.

4 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask, with the assistance of the usher, that

5 the witness be shown the photograph which is marked P3264.

6 Q. Witness, I'd ask you to take a look at this photograph, please.

7 Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On a previous occasion when you met with an investigator from the

10 Tribunal, did you make some markings on this photograph with a black

11 marker?

12 A. Yes. I marked where the barricade was on that bridge.

13 Q. Do you also see in this photograph the church that you mentioned

14 in the video?

15 A. Yes. I can see the church, but I'm not sure whether I was fired

16 at from the church or from the buildings in Dobrinja IV, which was the

17 front line of Republika Srpska army. This was the army that was in the

18 buildings that we can also see in the background of the photograph.

19 Q. Witness, I'd ask you to take a blue marker and please circle that

20 part of the church which is visible in P3264.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Witness, in this photograph, are the buildings in Dobrinja IV at

23 the front line also visible?

24 A. You can only see one corner of them, but yes, they are visible

25 about there.

1 Q. I would ask you to put a square with the blue pen, mark a square

2 on that part of Dobrinja IV which is visible on this photograph.

3 A. [Marks]

4 MR. MUNDIS: For the record, the witness has marked that location

5 with an "X," a blue "X," on P3264.

6 Thank you, Witness.

7 I would ask that the usher please show the witness what has been

8 marked as P3114.

9 Q. Witness, I'd ask you to now take a look at this map. Did an

10 investigator from the Tribunal provide you with a copy of this map on a

11 previous occasion?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did you at that time make some markings on this map?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you please point to the location, as indicated on the map,

16 where you were located at the time you were riding the bicycle and shot.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 MR. MUNDIS: For the record, the witness has pointed to a

19 previously marked circle on the map.

20 Q. Is there a number next to that circle, Witness?

21 A. Yes. It has number 1. Number 1 is marked.

22 Q. There is also a circle on a building with the number 2 on it. Can

23 you tell us what that circle represents?

24 A. It represents the building of Dobrinja IV, where I presume -- this

25 is what I think. Whether that's -- the fire came from the

1 building -- that building or the church, but this represents Dobrinja IV.

2 Q. And immediately next to that circle with the number 2 on it, there

3 is what appears to be a line drawn. Did you make that line? Did you draw

4 that line?

5 A. Yes. It is the demarcation line, confrontation line, between the

6 BH army and the army of Republika Srpska.

7 Q. Witness, do you know if the church that you've testified about is

8 depicted on this map that's in front of you?

9 A. I'm not quite sure. I presume that this is -- this black bit

10 here, I presume that is the church. If not, then it is somewhere in this

11 plateau, on this plateau between these buildings. Whether it's -- it

12 could be the school, which is in Dobrinja I, but the church is located

13 between Dobrinja IV and this school, which is in this area.

14 Q. Witness, did you become aware -- during the time you were at the

15 hospital, did you become aware of anyone else being shot at the

16 approximate location where you were shot?

17 A. Yes. The following day, a man was brought in who was hit exactly

18 the same spot where I was, and a bullet had gone through his heel.

19 Q. After these sniping incidents, were any additional barricades

20 erected at the spot where you were shot?

21 A. Yes. After that, this spot was regarded as being very dangerous,

22 so the civilian protection was organised enough to place barricades made

23 up of sandbags so that it would be safer to pass through that area.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness.

25 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this

1 time.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

3 Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the Defence ready to

4 cross-examine the witness?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you

6 for giving me the floor.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, first of all, let me thank you for being

9 here in this courtroom. Could you please tell me if the hairstyle that

10 you have on at the moment was roughly the one that you had on the day of

11 the incident or at the time of the incident?

12 A. I change my hairstyle, so I can't really remember.

13 Q. Madam, I believe that ladies can change their hairstyles quite

14 often, but your hair, was it roughly the same length that we can see

15 today?

16 A. No. I think it was longer. I think I wore it slightly longer.

17 Q. Much longer?

18 A. From this length, yes.

19 Q. Thank you for this answer. Madam, you told us in your

20 testimony - and for the transcript, page 44, line 13 - that there were

21 barricades. Could you tell us when the first barricades were erected?

22 A. You mean in Sarajevo?

23 Q. Yes, in Sarajevo.

24 A. I think this may have been, as far as I can remember, already the

25 end of April/beginning of May.

1 Q. Witness, you also told us, page 44, line 22, you told us about the

2 establishment of a league, which was the Patriotic League, as it was

3 translated into French. Could you tell us if this league was armed?

4 A. I did not see it at the beginning. I cannot tell you about the

5 beginning of the war. Me personally, I did not see it. Later, yes. But

6 I did not have the opportunity. I had a small child, and I was always at

7 home.

8 Q. Your answer is valid for the beginning, but what happens later,

9 after the beginning?

10 A. Well, there was defence that was organised so that we can protect

11 ourselves. Everyone was protecting their own family.

12 Q. Madam, can I understand that these people were defending their

13 families without weapons?

14 A. I cannot -- I cannot answer that.

15 Q. Witness, are you telling me that you never saw -- that you've

16 never seen a member of the Patriotic League with weapons, bearing weapons?

17 A. At the beginning, no.

18 Q. Witness, I am just -- I asked you already about the beginning.

19 I'm asking after the beginning. Were they armed later?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Very well. What kind of weapon did they have?

22 A. They had rifles. They carried rifles. I don't know anything

23 about weapons. I know there were rifles on their shoulders.

24 Q. Witness, the beginning, this guard, did they wear uniforms?

25 A. No, they wore civilian clothes.

1 Q. Thank you for your answer.

2 How could you tell apart these people who were not wearing

3 uniforms who were civilians, then people who were active in the guard,

4 since the beginning you say they carried no weapons?

5 A. I don't know how I could tell them apart, how I could recognise

6 them.

7 Q. Thank you for your answer.

8 I suppose you can recall: Until when did the Patriotic League

9 exist as such?

10 A. I couldn't tell you anything about it. I don't know.

11 Q. Madam, you answered questions on the existence of the

12 confrontation lines in page 45, line 23, and you said that their distance

13 was about five to six hundred metres from where you lived. Is that right,

14 to confirm it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. From your place of residence, you were then able to see the front

17 lines?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were there trenches, that is, on these front lines, either natural

20 trenches or artificial, those that were erected by -- erected with

21 sandbags?

22 A. I did not understand the question.

23 Q. I will ask the question again. On the front lines or in the

24 immediate vicinity, were there trenches, either there were natural

25 trenches, that is, they were dug in the soil, or artificial ones, that

1 means that there were some sandbags and soil -- bags filled with soil that

2 were erected?

3 A. I did not live on the demarcation line, on the confrontation

4 line. I did not go near it out of fear. What I know is that where we

5 were, the civilians, there was protection.

6 Q. Could you tell us, madam, what kind of means did you have?

7 A. I don't understand the question.

8 Q. I will rephrase it. You just said that where you lived there were

9 means of protection. Could you perhaps be more specific and tell us what

10 type of protection you disposed of?

11 A. Well, there were barricades that were protection from sniping, and

12 these barricades were either made of sandbags or blankets or some

13 sheeting. Containers were used in those locations so that the civilians

14 could walk safely between these various areas in Dobrinja since we had to

15 go from Dobrinja II to Dobrinja III.

16 Q. Thank you for your answer.

17 Could you tell us where these barricades were that you told me

18 that were erected from sandbags?

19 A. There were barricades between buildings on the bridges, this area

20 that is between the buildings. For instance, you could see the -- the

21 building that you can see where there was -- the buildings where the army

22 Republika Srpska was located and also the area towards the bridge where

23 you could see, also parts of the buildings as well as the church which was

24 then in the territory of the Republika Srpska.

25 Q. Thank you for your answer.

1 These areas of protection and these trenches, there were quite a

2 few of them in your neighbourhood?

3 A. Yes, there were many buildings. One had to go between two

4 buildings in order to pass, and it was very dangerous. So it was -- we

5 would have to take our life into our own hands in order to cross from one

6 building to another. These families had to visit each other, friends,

7 that's how we had to go from one building to another.

8 Q. Thank you for your answer.

9 These areas of protection or trenches, were they reserved for

10 civilians or could also army units use them?

11 A. Everyone used them.

12 Q. So I believe that means also army units.

13 A. I don't know. Where I live, there's only civilians, so we did not

14 see the military go there frequently.

15 Q. Thank you for your answer.

16 I have other questions, but we are going to have enough copies of

17 maps made, and then I would like to ask some questions on the maps. So

18 I'm going to go to other questions now. You told us about the territorial

19 defences. Could you tell us about do you know who was responsible from a

20 hierarchial point of view for the Territorial Defence?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you for your answer.

23 You told us about several areas in Dobrinja, and I remembered that

24 there was a Dobrinja IIIA and IV. Could you tell us what the difference

25 between Dobrinja IIIA and Dobrinja IV, just so that we can be absolutely

1 clear about everything?

2 A. On the road that I was going along, so going from Dobrinja II, on

3 the left-hand side -- there is Dobrinja IIIA on the left-hand side, and on

4 the right-hand side there is Dobrinja IIIB, and then Dobrinja IV

5 continues. So there is a main road which divides Dobrinja IIIB and

6 Dobrinja IV.

7 Q. Could you tell us the name of that main road?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Could you tell us the name of the bridge that you were crossing

10 when you were shot?

11 A. No. I don't know. I don't know such things. I'm not

12 interested.

13 Q. I'm going to ask you whether the name of Emile Zola means anything

14 to you.

15 A. Yes, it does, but...

16 Q. What can you tell us about it, madam?

17 A. It could be a street in Dobrinja or something. I don't know much

18 because I don't go much in Dobrinja.

19 Q. This is not the bridge that you were crossing when you were shot?

20 A. Possibly it is.

21 Q. What I understood was "probably." It is "probably" or

22 "possibly"? Can we be absolutely sure about the interpretation.

23 A. What I told you is that I don't know what the bridge is called,

24 not even today. Although I live in Dobrinja and have lived there for

25 about 15 years, I don't know.

1 Q. Thank you for that answer, madam.

2 I would like to go back to some other elements, and we will see if

3 we can go to this famous 360-degree photograph. But I'd like to ask a

4 question to the witness.

5 Madam Witness, you declared, and I believe this is page 48, line

6 21, that "this was a very exceptionally quiet day." "It was particularly

7 quiet day." I am quoting. What is your reference for saying this, for

8 declaring this?

9 A. There had been no sniping activity or shelling that day. When

10 this was happening, we didn't go out of our homes, and that is why I went

11 to Dobrinja II for medicaments.

12 Q. Can you tell me what is the distance between the airport and the

13 zone where you were heading for?

14 A. You mean Dobrinja II?

15 Q. I believe that it must be Dobrinja II, yes.

16 A. I don't know. I didn't measure the distance. I don't know the

17 details.

18 Q. Witness, if I speak about several hundreds of metres, could this

19 correspond to the reality of the situation?

20 A. What do you mean, several hundred metres?

21 Q. What I'm interested in is the scale, if it was 12 metres or

22 whether it was near Dobrinja or the zone where you stood. Since you have

23 been living there for a number of years, I suppose you should know that.

24 A. Between Dobrinja II and the airport? Well, I don't know. If I

25 say about up to one kilometre, by the crow's flight.

1 Q. Thank you for your answer. So you have been confirming what I had

2 heard earlier, that there was no shooting, no fire, in the sense of

3 fighting, because it was said, "No shooting, no fire." This is page 48,

4 line 21, with reference to the day in question.

5 A. Yes, on that day.

6 Q. Thank you for your answer.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpreted] I would like to submit some

8 documents to the witness in the English language. There is a problem. I

9 can read it out. There will be tendered for evidence. It is the same

10 sort of evidence which the Defence has already submitted, tendered, on

11 other occasions, too.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, have you provided the interpreters

13 with a copy of the --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm about to do so,

15 Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you do it during the break, that saves time.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. These

19 are the same kind of documents as those that have already been provided on

20 other occasions. These are summaries of military reports on Sarajevo and

21 the corresponding sheets which correspond to the week in question, the

22 week ending January 6, 1994. Could the usher take those documents,

23 please, and give them to each of the parties. There is also a copy, I

24 think ...

25 THE REGISTRAR: Do you have more copies?

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1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I'm afraid no. We only have one more copy.

2 No.

3 Mr. President, when can I proceed?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Witness, can you read English? This is the first question I would

7 like to put to you.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Thank you for your answer. I would like you to be particularly

10 attentive, because I will read you a passage that will be translated to

11 you directly by the interpreters. I will take the text. It is a text

12 which is presented textually and which begins by S-98 [as interpreted].

13 And I will start with the paragraph starting with the words "Military

14 activity," and my questions will be asked following the interpretation.

15 So I'm quoting 6(a): [In English] "Combat and shelling activity."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I just interrupt you. What is

17 in the lines that follow that you're quoting is Grbavica, Holiday Inn.

18 That's the first paragraph. That's, as far as I understand now, a couple

19 of kilometres from where the witness testified about. Would you please

20 explain to us what's the relevance. I mean, if it's your intention to

21 confront the witness with some contradiction -- yes, please let me first

22 finish my question. If it's your intention to confront the witness with

23 information which contradicts her earlier statements about the quietness

24 of the day, then please explain to us where we could find any information

25 about the area she lived in.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Gladly, Mr. President.

2 When we produced a document of this kind last time, we were blamed for not

3 explaining it extensively. But if you read from "Targets hit," the second

4 word of the second line mentions, very specifically, "airport." And as

5 the witness has just said that the airport was less than a kilometre from

6 the place she was residing, so I believe that we can ask a question,

7 because we know that there were less than 732 shots, artillery shots, and

8 they reached the airport, where she was.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think you're talking about shooting and not

10 about shelling. But please, if you want to concentrate specifically, and

11 with right details, on the airport, please proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly. But one of the

13 answers by this witness - and I think I understood it in Serbian - had to

14 do with shelling. I heard it in Serbian. We will check the transcript.

15 We have an assistant who will do that.

16 Q. I will re-read the text, which will be interpreted to you. I will

17 start by "Military activity" and I will pass to chapter 2, to the second

18 chapter, not the one immediately following, but the one after:

19 "[In English] [Previous translation continues]... old Jewish

20 cemetery, the Grbavica district, the airport, the Holiday Inn, and the

21 Central Bank."

22 [Interpretation] I will not read the rest. I don't find it to be

23 relevant.

24 My question is, Witness, the following: Are you absolutely sure

25 that on that day there was no shooting, no fire, no shelling? Because we

1 have a report that indicates the contrary, it would seem.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when you ask for confirmation of

3 whether there was no shelling, I require you to find the exact source of

4 where she said that there was no shelling.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm asking my

6 assistant to check up on this. He's new at this. But I thought that I

7 had heard the answer in Serbian by the witness that on that day, that

8 there had been no shelling.

9 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let me read to you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, page 48, line

12 21: "No, there was no shooting. There was no fire. It was particularly

13 calm that day." It doesn't say -- then it continues: "Mostly when there

14 is shooting, we wouldn't leave our homes if we heard any firing." That's,

15 I would say, the first source where I heard the witness tell anything. It

16 doesn't say anything about shelling. But if you would like to check the

17 translation, perhaps you could concentrate on that line.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please -- we are looking --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is on page

21 64, line 20. It is expressly stated -- the term "shelling" is expressly

22 mentioned, but I'll give you the time to check.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree with you. It's there, and I

24 apologise. The answer was: "There had been no sniping activity or

25 shelling that day when this was happening. We didn't go out of our homes,

1 and that's why I went to Dobrinja II." Yes, you're perfectly right,

2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. You're perfectly right. Please proceed.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Sorry. I should have

4 continued. Based on my memory, which is perhaps sometimes deficient and

5 sometimes not very charming.

6 Q. Now I will go back to your statement. You said there had been no

7 shelling. I asked you how far was the airport. According to you, there

8 had been no shooting, no fire opened, and no shelling in the region.

9 A. I apologise to you. I speak Bosnian and not Serbian, number one.

10 And number two, if there had been such activity, I cannot say about the

11 shelling of the town. We were not able to hear shelling. But if you

12 believe that in an apartment with a small child you can hear shelling at

13 the airport, which is a kilometre away, I think you are not right, that I

14 could know or hear this because especially at the time we had no

15 electricity to be able to listen to the radio and hear any warning that

16 shelling was taking place outside elsewhere and that we couldn't move

17 around. If I had known that there was any shelling that day in Dobrinja,

18 I wouldn't have left my home, for my own safety and for the safety of my

19 household.

20 Q. Yes, but you didn't stay in your apartment that day; you went

21 outside, and you -- while you were outside, you didn't hear firing,

22 explosions or shelling?

23 A. Yes. At the time when I left, about 3.00 p.m., I didn't hear

24 anything.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have another

1 document which I would like to examine, 00250 --

2 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you think it will take,

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since I'm looking at the clock and we are about at the

4 moment to have a break? If you say it's just one or two questions, it's

5 fine; otherwise, I would ask you --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have other questions, too.

7 We have wasted some time, but I think it's the right time to have a

8 break.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break until 10 minutes to 1.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for giving me the

14 floor, Mr. President.

15 In order to gain time, we thought we should do the following, and

16 I think there's no opposition from the Prosecution: The second document

17 that was provided a moment ago is a document from UNPROFOR which

18 summarises the wartime activities for the week ending the 6th of January.

19 Instead of asking questions about the shelling, I suggest simply,

20 Mr. President, that this document be tendered. If not, I would read a

21 part and ask the witness a question, and we would certainly get the same

22 answer. So my suggestion would be that I tender it into evidence because

23 the same problem will arise. This is a second document testifying to the

24 existence of shelling activities.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution would prefer that the

2 statement in question be put to the witness, or that part of the report be

3 put to the witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be wise, first, to ask Mr. Piletta-Zanin to

5 indicate exactly those portions he would like to put to the witness and

6 then I hear from you whether you find it necessary that it really will be

7 put to the witness.

8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please indicate which parts you would

9 confront the witness with.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very gladly. It is page 2,

11 ERN 0025372, and what appears under B1, Sarajevo, (c), and we see that

12 this refers to shelling, this time on the part of the Bosniak army, the BH

13 army which were in the -- aimed at Lukavica barracks which is, as we know,

14 very close to Dobrinja. I think it would be interesting to know at what

15 distance Lukavica is, because that was the target at the time.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, my learned colleague is certainly free

17 to put that question to the witness with respect to the distance, if she

18 knows, and we can take it from there.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you please do that. But you do not oppose

20 against the relevance of this document is that -- it's found on page

21 2B1(c) which indicates that there was shelling mainly confined to the

22 areas Lukavica and --

23 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if the Defence is intending on

24 confining it to Lukavica, we would ask that the question be put to the

25 witness if she can provide some evidence as to the distance.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly.

3 Q. Madam Witness, do you know where Lukavica is, a place called

4 Lukavica?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you tell us in relation to Dobrinja where is Lukavica, in

7 relation to Dobrinja?

8 A. Lukavica is behind Dobrinja IV. I never went there. I never

9 needed to go there. I don't know what the distance could be from the

10 apartment in which I lived.

11 Q. Madam witness, do you have any idea of the distance, not in

12 relation to your apartment but perhaps in relation to the bridge where

13 your accident occurred, that is, the distance between Lukavica and this

14 bridge, roughly?

15 A. I told you, I don't exactly know where Lukavica is. I think about

16 three or four kilometres. That is my assumption. I'm not sure.

17 Q. Madam witness, did you ever see mortars in Dobrinja?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you, madam witness, for your answer. I think a moment ago

20 you said that water and electricity - you even mentioned food - were cut

21 off in your apartment and building. My question is the following: Was

22 the water cut throughout Dobrinja? Does the same apply to the

23 electricity, to the power?

24 A. Not just in Dobrinja, but all over town, there was no water or

25 electricity or food, and in the winter we froze. We had nothing to heat

1 with.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the

3 following questions, I should like us to be able to have on our screen

4 this 360-degree picture, if possible. Can I ask the technical booth to do

5 that for us?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's not the technical booth, but it's

7 the technical assistant to the OTP who will put it on the screen.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, quite. Thank you. I

9 think we're ready now. We can see well.

10 Q. Madam, do you now see on your screen the road which you recognised

11 a moment ago following a question from the Prosecution? Is that that same

12 road?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Madam witness, at the far end of this picture, we see a hill.

15 Could you tell us, please, if you know, the name of that area.

16 A. It's called Mojmilo Brdo.

17 Q. Madam witness, as far as you know, which army at the time occupied

18 this area of Mojmilo Brdo?

19 A. I don't know that, but this part that we see, the army of Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina were there.

21 Q. Madam witness, you will agree with me in saying that the part at

22 the summit was held by the government forces, that is, the Bosnian army;

23 is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you for your answer. What about the areas to the sides of

1 that hill? Do you know that?

2 A. The left-hand side, as I am looking now, was held by the army of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the right-hand side was under the army of

4 Republika Srpska.

5 Q. Thank you for your answer.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we please turn the picture

7 to the right, pan the picture to the right, towards the right, please. A

8 little more. Almost 90 degrees, please. Will you stop the picture at

9 3.00, please, just before 3.00. Stop there. Thank you.

10 Q. Madam witness, could you please specify very clearly what is the

11 mountainous area that we see behind the buildings, to the best of your

12 recollection?

13 A. I think it is Trebevic, as far as I know.

14 Q. You used an expression which was well translated into French, that

15 is to say, that you're not quite sure.

16 A. I am sure that this part here is Trebevic; and over there, this

17 other end, continues, becomes Treskavica. Now, whether this is the summit

18 of Treskavica, over here, where the building is, is Trebevic.

19 Q. So for the summit that you see, I think you gave us two names. In

20 answer to a question from the Prosecution, you said it was Trebevic, and

21 now you gave us a second name. I don't know whether it has been correctly

22 registered on the transcript. Could you repeat it, please.

23 A. I'm saying that I am not sure about the background. I am very

24 familiar with the mountains around Sarajevo. Now, whether this is a part

25 of Trebevic, it probably is, as far as I'm able to see; and then, after

1 that, we have the mountain of Treskavica. Now, whether this is a part of

2 Treskavica, I cannot judge from here.

3 Q. Thank you for your answer.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Still talking about the same

5 picture, could we zoom in, please. Thank you. A little more. And

6 covering the buildings that we have to the right, please, buildings on the

7 right, please, to the right, focussing on the right. A little more. Zoom

8 in, please. A little more. Still more. Thank you.

9 Q. Madam witness, these buildings were referred to in one of the

10 questions from the Prosecution. Do you recognise them? I'm referring to

11 the buildings that are separated vertically by an area that is green and

12 white.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Madam witness, in relation specifically to those buildings, where

15 was the confrontation line?

16 A. You mean the front lines? Is that what you mean?

17 Q. How many confrontations lines were there? Were there several?

18 A. I didn't understand your question. I was just asking what it is

19 you wanted me to tell you about.

20 Q. Let me specify: In relation to this row of buildings, where was

21 the one or several confrontation lines, if there were several?

22 A. There. I didn't go up there ever, so I don't know exactly where

23 they were up there. I didn't go there.

24 Q. I think you said behind. Is that correct, in your own language?

25 A. I don't know exactly. I'm not certain. I can't remember what it

1 could have been in 1994.

2 Q. Could you tell us, madam, which Dobrinja we are talking about when

3 looking at these several buildings?

4 A. These green and white ones?

5 Q. Yes, yes. Quite.

6 A. It is the continuation of Dobrinja II.

7 Q. When you say "continuation of Dobrinja II," who was this area

8 militarily controlled by?

9 A. I don't know that.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We only have a few more

11 questions. I should like the witness to be shown a map that has been

12 given to Madam Registrar already and on which the witness could make some

13 indications for us.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the

16 witness already has that map.

17 Q. Madam, you're being shown a more or less clean map with no

18 markings on it. Do you recognise it as being a map with the name

19 "Dobrinja" indicated?

20 A. Yes, because that is what it says. But I'm not very good at

21 reading maps. But roughly.

22 Q. Let me try and help you. I agree with you that the river is not

23 very prominent, cannot be seen easily. Do you see the river flowing from

24 the theological faculty that is indicated on the map, to roughly the

25 centre of the map? The river is line.

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1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps we can

2 proceed with a colour map and apply the same system that we did a moment

3 ago to assist the witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree, but I am calling upon both parties that

5 if colour is needed, you better prepare a colour copy. But we'll proceed

6 now in order to assist the witness in finding her way on the map.

7 Ms. Dzevlan, we will give you the original map which also shows

8 some colours, which might make it more easy for you to find your way. So

9 if you put them just next to each other on the ELMO so you can do your

10 marking on the black and white copy, but for your orientation you have the

11 coloured version available to you.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Mr. Usher, could we

13 prepare a black marker.

14 Thank you.

15 Q. Madam Witness, are you better able to recognise the map now since

16 you have the coloured original before you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Madam Witness, I would be grateful if you could first indicate,

19 please, with a black marker that will be given to you the exact place of

20 the accident that we are talking about today.

21 Do that, please, on the black and white map that is to your

22 right.

23 A. Yes, but just a moment, please. I'm not able to find my way.

24 It's most confusing for me because I'm unable to find the bridges.

25 Q. Madam, can I help you, perhaps. If we go from the right of the

1 map, you will see the River Dobrinja, which begins meandering slightly,

2 and then it enters Dobrinja. And there we have the first bridge, then the

3 second bridge, then the third, and then the fourth, and finally a fifth.

4 Have you managed to localise them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 Since you found those five bridges, and you were wounded on one of

8 those bridges, could you please indicate for us which of those bridges?

9 Madam, if you can't do that, just tell us that you can't and we

10 will accept your answer.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you.

13 Madam, on the same map, could you please point to the location of

14 the Dobrinja hospital with some precision, if you can.

15 A. I'm afraid I can't find my way among these buildings.

16 Q. We understand that it is not easy, madam. But the answer may be

17 important. Could you please indicate for us the road in which the

18 hospital was situated?

19 A. No. I don't know the roads in Dobrinja at all.

20 Q. Very well, then. Could you indicate in whichever language you

21 prefer, Serbian or Bosnian, the town of Dobrinja where the hospital was,

22 the part of Dobrinja where the hospital was? As there are several

23 Dobrinjas, I, II, III, IV, which one, could you indicate it to us, please?

24 A. It was in Dobrinja II.

25 Q. Thank you for your answer. And this will certainly be my last

1 question: Do you know whether at Dobrinja II there was an army corps?

2 A. No. I was not aware of that.

3 Q. My last question: A moment ago referring to this map or an

4 identical one that you had before you, you mentioned the existence of a

5 school on the exit of Dobrinja. Do you remember that?

6 A. Yes, that school is in Dobrinja I. And at the time, it was under

7 the territory of Republika Srpska, and it is still in the territory of

8 Republika Srpska. Or it may be Dobrinja II. I don't know.

9 Q. Are you certain, madam? This question may be of importance. If

10 you don't know, tell us that you don't know, and we will accept that.

11 A. I know that the school at the time and now is within the territory

12 of Republika Srpska.

13 Q. And one more final question: You told us that you were wounded on

14 the buttocks?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 Does the Prosecution wish to re-examine the witness, Mr. Mundis?

19 MR. MUNDIS: Very briefly, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

21 Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:

22 Q. Witness, in response to a question by my learned colleague page

23 74, you were asked if you had seen mortars in Dobrinja. Do you recall if

24 there were ever any shelling incidents in Dobrinja?

25 A. Yes, I do recall. There was a great deal of shelling in Dobrinja,

1 and there were massive casualties of civilians, children, women.

2 Q. Did the shells that landed in Dobrinja land in the area controlled

3 by forces of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or in areas controlled by the

4 Bosnian Serb army or in both -- on both sides of that confrontation line?

5 A. All I know is about the shells that fell at Dobrinja which was

6 under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Prosecution has no further questions.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you. I'm

11 told by my assistant that one of the questions I put, on line 8, page 78

12 [as interpreted], was incorrectly recorded. My question was -- the page

13 is 79, line 8. My question was whether there was something - I'm looking

14 at the English transcript - an army corps at Dobrinja II, and not Dobrinja

15 I, and the transcript mentions Dobrinja I. I should like to avoid any

16 misunderstanding over this point.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It seems to be logical. So you're interested to know

18 whether there was any army corps in Dobrinja II. So just -- yes, you

19 may --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Shall I put the question

21 again? Thank you very much.

22 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Madam witness, I asked you a question a moment

24 ago, and it may have been misinterpreted, as I was listening to another

25 channel. The question is the following: Concerning Dobrinja II - and I

1 repeat, II - are you aware of an existence of an army corps or brigade

2 which may have had its headquarters there?

3 A. I don't know. I know that there were some on the edges. But

4 where the civilians were, I am not aware of that.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this reply

6 makes it necessary for me to ask another question, because it seems to me

7 important.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may proceed.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10 Q. Madam witness, you have just told us that there were trenches, who

11 says trenches, there were soldiers [as interpreted]. Can you tell us

12 where the soldiers slept?

13 A. I don't know that.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No more questions,

15 Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. There's no need to

17 re-examine the witness, as far as I can see from the action of Mr. Mundis.

18 Any questions by my colleagues? Yes.

19 Judge El Mahdi would like to put a question to you, Mrs. Dzevlan.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Could you please tell me a few

23 details that I may have not followed properly. First of all, you said

24 that you were returning from a visit to your mother at the hospital, and I

25 was able to understand that in reply to another question, you said that

1 you left to look for medicines. I don't know exactly whether I understood

2 properly or misunderstood what you said. Why did you, in fact, go out?

3 A. My mother was sick at home. I went to the hospital to fetch

4 medicines and to bring those medicines home to her.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Another detail: If

6 you can remember the photograph that was shown to you, and you drew a

7 circle around the church; and then to the left, at the left edge of the

8 photograph - I don't know if you remember or not - you mentioned an area,

9 a part of Dobrinja IV. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And going back to the map, signed

12 by you, where you marked the location where you were hit by a bullet, and

13 you also marked, with a circle and with the number "2," what I understood

14 to have been Dobrinja IV. Is that correct?

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd like to see it first, of course this map can

16 be given to you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please then -- we're now talking

19 about P3114.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Yes, that's right. [Interpretation] And P3264,

21 please. Will you follow with me on the map, please, where you put the

22 number "1."

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please put the map a bit higher

24 on the ELMO, and perhaps then the ELMO being zoomed in. Yes, still a tiny

25 little bit higher. Higher, please. Yes, I think that's where we are.

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Number 1 is the spot where

2 you were at the time of the incident; isn't that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And number 2 is Dobrinja IV?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So if you check on the map, you

7 will find that the church is to the left of Dobrinja IV.

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And on the photograph, the church

10 appears to me to be to the right of Dobrinja IV. Please look at the

11 photograph. I just want to be sure that I understand correctly. So you

12 were aware the photograph was taking this picture; isn't that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So if you look straight ahead,

15 you will see in front of you the church; to the left, Dobrinja IV?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And on the map - maybe we should

18 turn it round - there is in front of you Dobrinja IV, and more to the left

19 is the church.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think there might have been some confusion about

23 the maps, but I think it's no problem any more, even without your answer,

24 that everything is clear now to the Bench.

25 I have no further questions for you, Mrs. Dzevlan, which would

1 mean that this is the end of your testimony. You have been answering for

2 quite some time all the questions put to you by the Prosecution and by the

3 Defence and also the questions put to you by the Bench. You will

4 understand that it's of great importance for this Court that people who

5 have been present at events we are dealing with, that they come, that they

6 testify, and that they answer the question of all the parties and of the

7 Bench concerning these events. Therefore, we thank you very much for

8 having come this very long journey, and we wish you a good trip home.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you once again.

11 Madam Registrar, I think we could use the time to --

12 Yes, please, the usher will lead you out of the courtroom and

13 we'll continue.

14 [Witness withdrew]

15 Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through all the

16 documents. I think we start with the video, and then the...

17 THE REGISTRAR: The video, P3280L; the 360 degree Quicktime movie,

18 P3279L; the discharge form in B/C/S, P3113; the English translation of the

19 discharge form, P3113.1; the photograph, P3264; the map, P3114; the

20 UNPROFOR report, D44; the additional report, D45.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I've also in front of me the last

22 map you used and where the witness was not able to do any markings on it,

23 which provisionally got number D46. Do you still want to tender that map

24 into evidence or would you refrain from it, withdraw your tender?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, but

1 I believe the answer is yes, because we've established that when the

2 Defence was asking questions, the witness wasn't certain about where

3 certain parts of town were. So I think it would be an emptiness that

4 would be filled with meaning.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but wouldn't that be -- we could --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So the answer is yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just try to be practical. I do remember

8 that the same map was admitted into evidence as D43. So if we would

9 assume that it has been shown to the witness, the empty copy of map D43,

10 would that be good enough for the transcript, or would you really like to

11 have again the empty --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. In fact,

13 this is a more practical solution, and we thank you for it. It would be

14 enough to say that the witness was not able to indicate anything

15 whatsoever on this map. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. So then the number D46 is not used until

17 now.

18 Mr. Mundis, then we are at the point where you could call your

19 next witness?

20 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

22 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution calls Refik Sokolar. For the benefit

23 of the Chamber and the Defence, this witness will be testifying about

24 scheduled sniping incident number 18 and scheduled sniping incident number 22.

25. [The witness entered court]

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sokolar, can you hear me?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand from your answer that you hear me in

4 a language you can understand.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sokolar, the Rules require everyone who testifies

7 in this court to make a solemn declaration prior to giving his testimony.

8 The text of this solemn declaration will now be given to you by the

9 usher. I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Sokolar. Please be seated.

13 Mr. Sokolar, as you have been called by the Prosecution, you will

14 be examined first by the Prosecution. Then subsequently you will be

15 examined by the counsel for the Defence, and perhaps the Judges might have

16 some additional questions for you as well.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 WITNESS: REFIK SOKOLAR

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

22 Q. For the record, Witness, can you please provide your name and date

23 of birth, please.

24 A. My name is Refik Sokolar. I was born on the 9th of December,

25 1953.

1 Is it necessary to say the place of birth?

2 Q. That's not necessary, Mr. Sokolar. Thank you.

3 Mr. Sokolar, are you currently retired?

4 A. Yes, I am now retired.

5 Q. What was your occupation prior to your retirement?

6 A. Just prior to my retirement, I was an inspector for fighting

7 crime.

8 Q. Did you have a career in the police force?

9 A. Yes, I worked in the police.

10 Q. When did you first join the police force?

11 A. I completed academy, police academy, in 1973, and ever since then

12 I've worked for the police.

13 Q. What year did you begin your police training, and how long did

14 that police training last at the academy?

15 A. After I finished my primary education, which in our country is

16 eight years long, in 1969, I joined the then school for the interior

17 ministry in Sarajevo in the place called Vrace. And I stayed in that

18 school until 1973.

19 Q. What were the general subject matters that you studied while at

20 the police academy?

21 A. In the first and second school, we had mostly general subjects,

22 like in all secondary schools, like geography, languages, mathematics,

23 chemistry, biology. And then in the second and third year, apart from

24 those subjects, we also had vocational subjects, professional subjects.

25 Q. What was the former name given to the police at the time you

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1 joined the police force?

2 A. After I completed the school, I became a policeman. This was

3 milicija or police.

4 Q. At that time, were you employed by the Ministry of the Interior?

5 A. It used to be called differently, not the Ministry of the

6 Interior, but the Secretariat of the Interior.

7 Q. And at a later date, the Secretariat of the Interior was renamed

8 the Ministry of the Interior? Is that correct?

9 A. The entire time until 1992, it was called Secretariat of the

10 Interior. And then in 1992 or 1993, I'm not quite sure when it changed,

11 but it changed. It became Security Services Centre in Sarajevo. It was

12 also with the ministry, and then during the war and after the war it is

13 now called the Ministry of the Interior.

14 Q. And when it was called the Security Services Centre, did it go by

15 an acronym or was it known by an acronym?

16 A. Yes. CSB, that was the Security Services Centre Sarajevo. And

17 within that centre, there were different stations of public security by

18 municipalities, by areas, by neighbourhoods. So I worked at the public

19 security station, Novi Grad.

20 Q. Novi Grad is located in Sarajevo?

21 A. Yes. It is the municipality -- it's a new municipality which was

22 established about 15, 20 years ago.

23 Q. And is the Ministry of the Interior also known by the acronym

24 "MUP"?

25 A. Yes, it is now called MUP.

1 Q. Mr. Sokolar, when you first graduated from the police academy in

2 1973, what was your first assignment in the police force?

3 A. After I completed the secondary school in 1973, on the 1st of

4 July, I started working at the then Secretariat of the Interior, and I was

5 a traffic policeman.

6 Q. How long were you a traffic policeman?

7 A. I worked in the traffic police for only about six months. And

8 then in February 1974, I was transferred because of the needs of the

9 profession to then crime prevention service.

10 Q. During the time you were a traffic police officer, did you wear a

11 uniform every day?

12 A. Yes, I did. It was a single uniform, and all the members of the

13 Secretariat of the Interior at that time then wore a uniform except that

14 the traffic police had an extra insignia which was -- it had a white cap

15 while the others didn't.

16 Q. And after joining the crime prevention services, did you continue

17 to wear a uniform as part of your daily routine?

18 A. No. From the 1st of February -- sorry, from February 1974, I have

19 not worn a uniform. I did not wear a uniform at the time.

20 Q. And one of your major responsibilities in the crime prevention

21 services would be investigating crimes. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you spend your entire working career working and living in

24 Sarajevo?

25 A. From 1973, I've been working and living in Sarajevo, and 1982,

1 when I started my family, and been living in Dobrinja and Sarajevo, yes.

2 Q. During the course of your career with the secretariat and, later,

3 the MUP, did you work out of different police stations or police offices

4 in the city of Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes. Because I worked the crime prevention, general crime, crime

6 prevention service - so these were burglaries, robberies, any crimes

7 against property - I was in all municipalities, also in the old town,

8 Stari Grad, in Novo Sarajevo, and then from 1997 I went to Novi Grad,

9 where I finished my career.

10 Q. And during the course of your career in the police, did you become

11 familiar with the different neighbourhoods and areas that constitute

12 Sarajevo?

13 A. Considering that I worked for 25-odd years, at first it was an

14 unknown, and through the time, I got to know all parts of the town.

15 Q. How did your work as a police officer change once the war started

16 in Sarajevo?

17 A. At that time there was an increased number of crimes - crimes

18 against property, burglaries, robberies, stealing of cars - and we simply

19 couldn't even record everything and work on all these crimes that were

20 committed.

21 Q. Did the city become divided along ethnic lines as a result of the

22 war?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how that process

25 came about.

1 A. Do I need to tell you in detail or do you just want me to give you

2 a summary? I'm sorry. I'm answering your question by a question.

3 Q. A brief summary would be sufficient.

4 A. Well, the events unfolded from Sarajevo from the 1st of March,

5 when a referendum was organised for the independence of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on that day an incident happened in the area of

7 Stari Grad, old town. This is the opposite part of town to where I lived

8 and worked. A member of a wedding party was killed, and the wedding party

9 were all of Serbian nationality. And from then on, some checkpoints were

10 established, check-ups were established in the streets. And considering

11 that certain settlements or areas of Sarajevo were mostly of one

12 nationality or another - for instance, Nedzarici, Rajlovac, Lukavica, and

13 partly Grbavica too - at intersections there were some kind of check-ups

14 that were set up, and they would just be a group of people who were armed

15 and they were stopping vehicles. On some occasions they would search the

16 vehicle. If they would find a weapon, whether it was a simple weapon or a

17 different one, then they would take that weapon away, then they would get

18 the citizens out of their vehicles, and so on. And in that way, very

19 gradually, certain parts of town were established where citizens were not

20 free to enter because of these check-ups, and this went on from about

21 second part of March and then possibly the first half of April.

22 Q. And this was in 1992, March of 1992?

23 A. Yes. Yes, March 1992.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time, and this would

25 perhaps be a convenient place to break.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

2 Mr. Sokolar, you have been in this courtroom only for a very brief

3 period of time, but we'll have to stop, and we'll continue tomorrow.

4 That's for all kind of practical reasons. Nevertheless, we wouldn't like

5 to lose the short time still available for us today.

6 We'll adjourn until 9.00 tomorrow morning in this same courtroom.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of

9 February, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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