Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3769

1 Friday, 15 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

10 No one on -- well, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Is there anything you want

11 to bring to our attention?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We have

13 an excellent piece of news, is that the communication between the

14 Prosecution and the Defence is progressing. And yesterday, we had some

15 success, and that's the first point. And I believe everyone will be

16 satisfied.

17 The second point is that Defence cannot work at all on the basis

18 of the documents given by the Prosecution because there is a number of

19 exhibits that we were given yesterday for a crucial witness that we should

20 hear next week. And I think I can give these documents that were copied,

21 copied yesterday.

22 Now, what we were given by the Prosecution, such things, and we

23 took them a little randomly. But exhibits are completely illegible, and I

24 think these are photographs, or perhaps it's modern art, but we cannot use

25 them at all.

Page 3770

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Could you give us examples that you

2 have prepared?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What we would like is that we

4 can have some legible documents; otherwise, we cannot work. Thank you so

5 much.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I asked to have copies in front of me. I

7 don't know whether the copying by the Defence deteriorated in any way the

8 quality of what has been provided to the Defence. But if it really would

9 be true that the Defence is provided with copies like these, could you

10 then give us an explanation as to what -- I don't know whether...

11 Could you respond.

12 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I'll make some inquiries during

13 the morning and update the Trial Chamber.


15 MR. IERACE: Perhaps immediately following one of the two breaks

16 that we'll have during the morning.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because if this has been distributed, you must

18 have some people on your team who are blind or -- I mean, you can't

19 really. So that's -- this doesn't need any further explanation. Please

20 inform us as soon as you can.

21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'll return this. I mean, this was just for

22 our information.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. This was

24 just to show that we have the original, and at a distance, even a blind

25 person could see that we cannot see anything.

Page 3771

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I also now see that these are parts of longer

2 documents, of which other parts might be legible.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I said, but

4 this is what I wanted everyone to see. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Anything else? Well, then at least I was very

6 happy with your first remark.

7 Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the witness because,

8 Mr. Ierace, I think we are ready to proceed with the examination-in-chief

9 of Fajko Kadric.

10 [The witness entered court]


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Kadric. May I remind you that you

14 are still bound today by the solemn declaration you made yesterday, that

15 you tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Mr. Ierace

16 will continue to examine you.

17 Please, Mr. Ierace.

18 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Examination by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

20 MR. IERACE: At this stage, I ask that the video, which is Exhibit

21 number P3279N be displayed -- excuse me, Mr. President, P3280N is the

22 correct exhibit number.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please, Mr. Usher, would you please verify that

24 the witness is -- yes. Is there any problem in playing the video or

25 should I just be more patient? Yes, there we are.

Page 3772

1 [Videotape played]

2 "INVESTIGATOR: Please face in the direction [Indiscernible] you

3 were driving, to the best of your recollection, on the morning of the day

4 that your son was wounded.

5 Could you please indicate with your hand on which side of your

6 vehicle you heard the bullet impact, to the best of your recollection,

7 when your son was wounded.

8 Could you please stand in the location where you recall, to the

9 best of your recollection, the end of the sniping barricades was located

10 on that day. I am now going to mark that location with yellow spray

11 paint.

12 Will you now please stand at the location where, to the best of

13 your recollection, you were located as the driver of your vehicle at the

14 time that your son was wounded?

15 I will now mark that location with yellow spray paint and the

16 figure 'X'."


18 Q. Mr. Kadric, did you recognise yourself in that video?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. We saw and heard that the investigator asked you to indicate

21 certain positions at the intersection and certain directions. When you

22 complied with those directions, did you do so truthfully and to the best

23 of your recollection?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage, I'd like the 360-degree

Page 3773

1 photograph to be displayed, that is Exhibit P3279N. My case manager will

2 assist us with that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.


5 Q. Mr. Kadric, do you recognise the image which appears on the screen

6 in front of you?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Was the street which appears to the left on the screen the street

9 along which you were driving at the time that your son was shot?

10 A. Yes, it was.

11 Q. Please navigate the image slowly to the right. Please pause

12 there. Do we now see the intersection which was in the area where your

13 son was shot?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the centre of the picture is a white building, of approximately

16 ten storeys. Do you recognise that building?

17 A. Yes, I can see it. Yes. It is a student residences.

18 Q. All right. When watching the video, we saw you indicate a

19 position on the roadway which marked one end of a barricade. Do you see

20 on this image where that position was marked by the investigator with a

21 line of yellow spray paint?

22 A. Yes, I can see it.

23 Q. Does that appear on the pedestrian crossing, which is marked with

24 white stripes across the intersection?

25 A. I don't have a very clear picture, but I can see it.

Page 3774

1 Q. Is the mark -- if I can put it to you this way: Is the mark on

2 the white --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes -- Mr. Usher, could you please -- it

4 depends on what button is pushed. I see the quality is quite different.

5 If, for example, you push the button for video, you have a rather bad

6 picture, and if you put on the computer evidence, you have, as far as I

7 can see, the better picture. Could you please see that the witness has

8 the best possible picture in front of him.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: Are you now able to see the yellow paint line that

11 was marked in your direction, indicating the end of the --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, do I understand that the quality of the

13 picture is not as it is on the other screens?

14 Madam Registrar, could this be fixed because I see that the

15 quality on the different screens is quite distinctive.

16 If this cannot be fixed, I'll have to ask the witness to look at

17 another screen. I see there's quite a difference in quality of the

18 picture, and the witness should have the best.

19 Please, if you...

20 It's confirmed by the technician that the picture on the screen

21 for the witness is similar to what it is for me, and I think that's clear

22 enough to work with.

23 So, Mr. Ierace, you may proceed.

24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 3775

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. This is

2 just for the transcript. I don't know whether it is important to mention

3 because it doesn't seem very obvious. We have a problem of looking at

4 various images on the screen -- screens, and I believe that this

5 photograph, 360-degree photographs, can bring in more confusion than

6 clarity. That is the reason why I would like to stress it now.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the quality of your computer screen as such

8 is not good enough, we'll check that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. But as you know,

9 we decided that the 360-degrees photographs were rather helping the Court

10 than confusing the Court.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


13 Q. Mr. Kadric, are you now able to see on the image in front of you

14 the yellow mark made at your direction indicating the end of the

15 barricades?

16 A. I cannot see a yellow line where I marked, but I can tell that

17 this is the spot.

18 Q. All right. Are you able to -- could you please tell us where the

19 barricade -- withdraw that. Could you please tell us where the end of the

20 barricades was if it appears in the picture in front of you? Please do

21 not point at the screen because we cannot see where you are pointing.

22 Rather, could you describe to us where it was.

23 A. Approximately, if we look at this blue car, straight there, in

24 front of that blue car.

25 Q. All right. Please continue to -- can you tell us, what was the

Page 3776

1 nature of the barricade? What was it made from?

2 A. These were concrete blocks, concrete slabs.

3 Q. How high were they?

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness.


6 Q. How high were the concrete blocks?

7 A. About 2 metres.

8 Q. All right.

9 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the image to the right

10 slowly.

11 Q. Did the barricade extend right across the --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, this is -- since the

14 interpreter didn't hear it, perhaps for the transcript, we could repeat

15 it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was translated, the answer.

17 "Approximately 2 metres high."

18 MR. IERACE: Yes.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, it's okay. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


22 Q. Did the barricade extend right across the road which now appears

23 in the image, being Aleja Branka Bujica?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. For the transcript, the view which is on the screen at the moment

Page 3777

1 shows the 10-storey building previously identified by the witness to the

2 left, and a similar building to the right. And in the middle of the

3 image, what appears to be a house with approximately three storeys with a

4 red roof.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Mr. Kadric, the building on the right, that is, the 10-storey

7 building on the right, what is the present use of that building?

8 A. The United Nations are there.

9 Q. In relation to the 10-storey building on the left which you

10 earlier identified, what was its condition during the war, and in

11 particular, on the day that your son was shot?

12 A. They were completely hollow.

13 Q. Do you mean by that that one was able to see the floors from one

14 end to the other?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. In relation to the 3-storey building with the red roof

17 in the middle of the picture, what was the condition of that building

18 during the conflict, and in particular, on the day your son was shot?

19 A. It had two floors.

20 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the image to the right.

21 Stop.

22 Q. Having regard to your earlier evidence, we now see in the centre

23 of the screen the street up which you were driving at the time your son

24 was shot.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3778

1 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan to the right.

2 Please pause there for a moment.

3 Q. And I take it we now see the direction in which you were headed at

4 the time your son was shot?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, you indicated that the bullet entry point was on the

7 passenger side of the cabin, that is, to your right. Was it possible from

8 the position where your son was shot to see any buildings on the Serb army

9 side of the confrontation line?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. IERACE: We will continue to pan slowly to the right.

12 Q. And if you see those positions, will you please say so, and we

13 will stop the image.

14 MR. IERACE: Please pan slowly to the right.

15 A. Stop. I can see it now.

16 Q. For the benefit of the transcript, the centre of the image at the

17 moment is a blue -- approximately, is a blue rubbish tin or garbage bin

18 and alongside it is a white --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- is a whitish utility box. Now, where is that position in

21 relation to the blue garbage bin? Is it above it, to the left of it, to

22 the right of it?

23 A. On the right-hand side, up across the tree -- above the trees.

24 MR. IERACE: All right. Excuse me, Mr. President. I'll ask that

25 we now zoom in on that area.

Page 3779

1 Q. We have now zoomed in on the approximate area that you indicated.

2 Can you describe to us where that position or those positions were, having

3 regard to the image?

4 A. Right next to the trees over there.

5 Q. I think we see a tree growing on a grassy strip, slightly to the

6 right of the garbage bin. Were the positions behind that tree, to the

7 left of that tree, or to the right of that tree?

8 A. Well, at that part here but slightly higher up. They were on an

9 upper floor.

10 Q. Upper floor of what building?

11 A. The first floor, the first floor. There is the ground floor and

12 then the first floor.

13 Q. What is the name of that building?

14 A. The home for the blind, Dom Slijepih.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage I'd ask the witness be

16 shown Exhibit P3277. It's a photograph.

17 Q. Mr. Kadric, do you recognise the photograph which has been placed

18 to your right? Rather than -- rather than look at it on the computer

19 screen, could you turn your body and look at the actual photograph to your

20 right? Do you recognise that photograph?

21 A. I do.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please adjust one of the

23 microphones so that the -- yes.


25 Q. Does it show the same intersection?

Page 3780












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3781

1 A. Yes, it does.

2 Q. Did you make a statement on the 28th of September, 2001?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. At the time you made your statement, did you place some blue marks

5 on this photograph?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. Did you place some markings on the intersection, on the roadway

8 itself, indicating the position of the barrier?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. And did you also place some marks -- I'll withdraw that. Are you

11 able to see on this photograph the position of the home for the blind?

12 A. Somewhere here.

13 Q. All right. I think if you use the pointer to indicate the tree,

14 which we earlier discussed on the 360-degree photograph, that is a tree

15 which appears to be on the grass verge and has a blue line ruled across

16 towards the top of it. There are two such trees. This is the tree to the

17 left; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. All right. Now, do I understand you to mean that the building was

20 behind that tree?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. At the time your son was shot, was that tree present?

23 A. Yes, but it was smaller, much smaller.

24 Q. At the time your son was shot, and from the position your son was

25 shot, were you able to see the home for the blind?

Page 3782

1 A. Well, at that moment, I wasn't really looking whether I could see

2 it or not. I was driving. I wasn't looking for where it came from.

3 Q. Had you driven through that intersection before that day that your

4 son was shot?

5 A. Not that day, but yes, I did, on the days before that.

6 Q. How often, in the months before your son was shot, would you drive

7 through that intersection?

8 A. At times three times, at times five. It depended on the number of

9 vehicles required to go into the centre and back.

10 Q. Did the home for the blind have any particular significance for

11 you on those occasions that you drove through that intersection?

12 A. Well, there was always a danger that -- a risk that we might be

13 hit.

14 Q. From where?

15 A. From the home for the blind.

16 Q. Had you been fired at on previous occasions that you had driven

17 through that intersection?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Had your vehicle been hit on previous occasions when you had

20 driven through that intersection?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On what side of your vehicle -- withdraw that. From what side of

23 the road had that fire come?

24 A. From the right-hand side.

25 Q. Do you mean by that the same side as it came from on the day that

Page 3783

1 your son was shot?

2 A. From the same side.

3 Q. On those earlier occasions that you had driven through the

4 intersection, had you ever noticed whether you could see the home for the

5 blind?

6 A. There was a hole, a hole on the first floor. It was made in the

7 wall.

8 Q. Were you able to see that from the intersection?

9 A. Well, roughly at the place where we were hit, some ten metres.

10 Q. From the intersection, could you see the hole in the wall of the

11 home for the blind?

12 A. Yes, I could.

13 Q. Now, as you drove up that hill towards the intersection, were you

14 able to see the home for the blind through the exposed floors of the

15 ten-storey building which appears on the right of the photograph?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. IERACE: All right. I ask the witness be shown Exhibit

18 P3279NN, which comprises two photographs. Please place the one with the

19 number 11 on the ELMO first. Yes, that's it, I think. That's the one.

20 Q. Mr. Kadric, do you recognise the view in the photograph?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Are you able to determine from that view where the photograph was

23 taken from?

24 A. Yes, I can.

25 Q. Whereabouts is that?

Page 3784

1 A. Well, here. That's where this building was.

2 Q. When you say "here", where do you mean?

3 A. The home for the blind. This is the part of the home for the

4 blind. This building did not exist there. I mean, it was destroyed, and

5 this one was built later.

6 Q. All right. Was the home for the blind one building or more than

7 one building?

8 A. It was one building.

9 Q. Are you able to determine where the photographer was at the time

10 that he or she took this photograph by looking at the view of the

11 photograph?

12 A. Yes, I can do that. Here, in this building, the home to the

13 blind.

14 Q. All right. Now, are you able to see in the photograph any part of

15 the intersection -- withdraw that.

16 You said the building to the bottom left, that is, with the black

17 and orange and red roof, was not there at the time. Is that correct? I

18 think you said it was destroyed.

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. Now, would you please look at the roof line of that building, that

21 is, the roof which is black, red, and orange striped. And do you see

22 above that roof line there appear to be some light poles, some grass, and

23 part of a road?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. IERACE: Might the witness now be shown the second photograph

Page 3785

1 of P3279NN.

2 Q. Can you now see what appears to be a telephoto shot taken from the

3 same position showing that detail?

4 A. Yes, I see that.

5 Q. Do you recognise the intersection which appears towards the centre

6 of that photograph?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. What intersection is it?

9 A. The one where we were hit, right here.

10 Q. Please come back to the other photograph, that is, the one with

11 the "11." And firstly, looking at the same area of photograph 11, would

12 you then move your eye to the left. And do you see what appears to be a

13 portion of a building of around ten storeys?

14 Perhaps you could point to that building when you think you have

15 located it.

16 A. What do you mean "building"? You mean the residential, the

17 apartment block? Is that it?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. Would you please move the pointer to the left, to the margin of

21 the photograph.

22 A. [Indicates]

23 Q. Further up. Just above the roof.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. That's it. Do you see there, there appears to be a building of

Page 3786

1 approximately ten storeys with white and reddish brown horizontal

2 stripes? Do you see that?

3 A. I do, yes. I do.

4 Q. Do you recognise that building?

5 A. It is the student hostel.

6 Q. All right.

7 MR. IERACE: Those photographs might be returned now. Thank you.

8 Q. You referred yesterday to your truck having a tank or a cistern in

9 the back. Is that correct?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. When you carted water in that cistern, where did you collect it

12 from?

13 A. We went to Halilovici.

14 Q. When you delivered -- where did you deliver the water to?

15 A. The locality.

16 Q. Which particular locality?

17 A. Vojnicko Polje, or Saraj Polje as it's called now.

18 Q. Is that also the area in which you lived?

19 A. It is.

20 Q. Who would use the water?

21 A. Well, the residents there.

22 Q. How would they collect the water from the tank?

23 A. There was a faucet and a hose, and they would come with

24 cannisters.

25 Q. What was the capacity of the tank?

Page 3787

1 A. About 3.000 litres.

2 Q. When you were transporting water, how frequently would you take a

3 load to that settlement?

4 A. At times, three times; at times, two times; and at times, five

5 times. It varied.

6 Q. Were they times per day, per week, per month, or what?

7 A. Per day, per day.

8 Q. All right. You said that on this day, you were transporting

9 flour. Who was to receive the flour?

10 A. Yes, for the neighbourhood community, that is, Civil Defence

11 rather.

12 Q. How was the flour to be distributed?

13 A. Well, it was paid for in 1992. The civilians had paid for it but

14 did not get it before that. And now it had arrived, so they simply

15 collected what they had paid for.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that concludes examination-in-chief.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

18 Is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

19 MR. IERACE: I apologise, Mr. President.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: One aspect I've overlooked. Perhaps I could...

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

24 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown the map which is P3108.

25 The witness was shown this map yesterday, and therefore copies

Page 3788

1 have already been distributed.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, it has not yet been admitted into

3 evidence, so it should -- we usually do that at the end of the examination

4 of the witnesses, after he has been cross-examined. So it should still

5 be... But I have a copy here, if the parties would agree, just for --

6 it's 3108, is it, Mr. Ierace?

7 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

8 Perhaps that could be placed on the ELMO.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You found it, yes. Perhaps then we use the original

10 one, and since there will be some markings on it.

11 Yes. Thank you.

12 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the left-hand side of the map could be placed

13 on the ELMO.

14 I'm not sure if that's the correct map. Mr. President, could we

15 check the exhibit number of that map.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. That's not the correct

17 one. What we need is -- it's 3108 with some handwriting in the left-hand

18 corner.

19 If you give that one to me -- yes, thank you. Just for the

20 clarity of the transcript, could we please zoom in first on the exhibit

21 number, since there has been some confusion, which is in the right, upper

22 corner? Yes, first have that. I read 3108, yes. And now please zoom in

23 at the left part of the -- yes. Please zoom in, a bit more to the left, I

24 suggest.

25 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

Page 3789


2 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Kadric, you explained the significance of the cross

3 at the intersection and the arrows leading to the cross. Do you remember

4 that?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. You also placed a blue circle around some buildings which appear

7 to the left of the cross and slightly down. Do you see that blue circle?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. I think you just pointed to them. What buildings were they?

10 A. That is where the home for the blind is.

11 Q. You also placed a blue line along a street to the east, in

12 particular, to the southeast of those buildings along a street. What is

13 the significance of that line? Perhaps you could point to it as you give

14 your explanation.

15 A. This, you mean? This here?

16 Q. If you moved the pointer down and to the right, you will see a

17 blue line extending from the circle down a street -- yes.

18 A. Here?

19 Q. You're on the line now. Could you move the pointer down rather

20 than across?

21 A. Here?

22 Q. No. Do you see that there is a blue pen line going -- yes?

23 A. Oh, this here? Yes.

24 Q. What is the significance of that line that you placed on the map?

25 A. Well, this is Lukavicka Cesta. That is the name of the street

Page 3790

1 where the demarcation was.

2 Q. By "demarcation," do you mean the confrontation lines?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please return the map to the Registrar.

7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're ready to cross-examine the witness?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, very happy to do so, if

9 the Chamber allows me.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kadric, now counsel for the Defence will examine

11 you.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning. Will you please tell us

16 if you made and did you make any written statements for the

17 representatives of the Tribunal and, if so, if yes, when?

18 A. Well, it was in 1995.

19 Q. Witness, did you make only one statement?

20 A. Well, I don't know. I went there once.

21 Q. Witness, I'd really like to ask you to tell me the truth. Don't

22 you know how many statements you made?

23 A. I did it in 1995, twice, in UN homes, and then there was this

24 photographing.

25 Q. And you gave no other statements than that one of 1995?

Page 3791












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3792

1 A. Oh, there were other statements too.

2 Q. Well, then, Witness, will you tell us all about it?

3 A. What?

4 Q. Well, is it that you did not make any other statements apart from

5 the one in 1995?

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... that on line 18

7 of page 21, the witness said that there were other statements too, so ...

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but I was asking for the

9 date, Mr. President, if I may.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was in 2001.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm asking this question

12 simply because we have a date which is the 20th of September --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but your question was, "Is it that

14 you did not make any other statements apart from the one in 1995?" When

15 the witness just had testified that there were other statements. This

16 question seems totally useless to me. If you want to know the dates,

17 please proceed in such a way that you find out what the dates were.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly, Mr. President.

19 But my first question was when was the statement given, exactly on what

20 dates, so I am going to continue.

21 Q. Witness, can you confirm that it was in the year 2001? Because

22 what we have is a different date. So is it 2000, 2001, for your very last

23 declaration -- for your very last statement?

24 A. I was born in 1949, not -- that's not when I gave the statement.

25 Q. But what I wanted to know is when did you give the statement? Was

Page 3793

1 it 2000 or 2001? This is just to clarify the question. That's where the

2 problem lies. Is it in 2000 or is it in 2001 that you gave your last

3 statement?

4 A. I do not remember but I went twice to Nedzarici, to the UN

5 centre. I went there twice, but I don't know what the dates were.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. President, I would

7 like to submit 02114297 because the witness is not sure are we talking

8 about 2001.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that you gave a statement in 1995,

10 that --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Approximately six years ago.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Did you also give a statement last summer?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I did.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Now, Witness, thank you for your answer. You were a soldier

19 throughout the war; is that correct?

20 A. No. Until the wounding, I was a soldier, and then I was no longer

21 a soldier.

22 Q. Fine. Until the moment of the incident you're talking about, the

23 wounding, you're talking about until the incident, you were a soldier?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, what was your rank, if you

Page 3794

1 had one?

2 A. None.

3 Q. Did you belong to the 5th Motorised Brigade?

4 A. I did.

5 Q. Where were you stationed?

6 A. Vojnicko Polje.

7 Q. Where exactly, address and number, please?

8 A. This is the square of the 10th Krajina Brigade.

9 Q. Do you have a slightly more precise indication? Was there a

10 number of the street?

11 A. Seven, number seven.

12 Q. Thank you for your answer. So you were stationed there. How many

13 people were there? What was the strength?

14 A. 2000 people.

15 Q. 2000 people. That's what I understand.

16 A. The military, as well as civilians.

17 Q. Witness, I was asking about the brigade. And what I mean by

18 "brigade," that means it's a military formation. And you just told me

19 that there was civilians in the brigade.

20 A. The brigade was in Dobrinja.

21 Q. Fine. You just told me, Witness, to my question when I asked you

22 about where you were stationed, you gave me a precise -- precise address.

23 That was number 7 of a square --

24 A. Where I lived.

25 Q. Could you just wait until I finish my question.

Page 3795

1 You told me that this is where you lived.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Witness, I believe -- what I was asking, I believe, I was

4 precise. Where were you stationed? Where were you stationed as a

5 military?

6 A. In Vojnicko Polje. Not in the barracks, in buildings.

7 Q. So you were a soldier? You were in a unit, so you were somewhere

8 where -- you went somewhere where you were called for your duty?

9 A. I would go to my guard post duty for the first two months where I

10 was supposed to stand guard.

11 Q. Very well. We are going to make questions more precise because

12 I'm not getting any precise answers. Where was your guard post?

13 A. In number 7 of 13.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kadric, let me just ask you a few questions. You

15 said you were in the military, and you were talking about the beginning of

16 the wartime.


18 JUDGE ORIE: Where was your commander who would tell you where to

19 go on guard?

20 THE WITNESS: The brigade was in Dobrinja, but one small company

21 was in Vojnicko Polje.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said the brigade was in Dobrinja. Could

23 you tell us exactly where the brigade was?

24 THE WITNESS: I don't know the street, but it was in the centre of

25 Dobrinja, in Dobrinja II.

Page 3796

1 JUDGE ORIE: If you were on duty, who would tell you where to go?

2 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know what to tell you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Or did you decide yourself where to go on guard?

4 THE WITNESS: At first, we did it ourselves.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And later?

6 THE WITNESS: And later, a kind of company arrived. And there was

7 a commander, and then they assigned duties.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Where was this commander located?

9 THE WITNESS: There, in the buildings.

10 JUDGE ORIE: In what buildings?

11 THE WITNESS: I don't know. It was number 9 or number 7 or number

12 11. I'm not sure.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Was that the place where you lived, in those same

14 buildings?

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. But on the ground floor.

16 JUDGE ORIE: On the ground floor. So in the same building but not

17 in your apartment but on the ground floor of the building --

18 THE WITNESS: No. Yes.


20 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, indeed,

22 Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I am aware that I'm in a different position, but the

24 tone you use while questioning might put the witness better at ease so

25 that you get the answers.

Page 3797

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] You mean it's not charming

2 enough?

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking you to be charming to a witness. I'm

4 just telling you that the tone might help you to get where you want to.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will make sure,

6 Mr. President, to have a satisfactory tone of voice.

7 Q. Witness, if I understood you correctly, there was a military

8 station at the address where you lived and that you told us about a minute

9 ago. Is that correct?

10 A. No.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm going to

12 have to change my tone again.

13 Q. But you just told us that where you lived, there was a military

14 unit; there were troops. Is that correct or not?

15 A. Number 7 where this entrance, number 9 where this entrance, number

16 11, and number 13. So we went from number 7 to number 13. These were

17 entrances. And number 9, there was business premises, and that's where it

18 was. So it was number 9.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, so you will agree with me that very

20 near where you lived, there was one or several military stations, military

21 posts?

22 A. There was only one command, not several.

23 Q. Now, if there is a command post, naturally there are troops, there

24 are soldiers. Were there troops, soldiers?

25 A. These were all civilians. There were no soldiers. They were not

Page 3798

1 in uniform. They were, I suppose, soldiers but they did not wear

2 uniforms.

3 Q. So I understand at the command post, there were civilians?

4 A. They were not dressed.

5 Q. Witness, I did not ask you if they were wearing uniforms. In

6 spite of my tone, I was asking you whether you know that there were

7 civilians at the command posts.

8 A. Civilians were all in buildings.

9 Q. Very well. But what I thought I understood was that these

10 civilian buildings, there were military installations. Is that correct?

11 A. There was a command.

12 Q. So that's a correct one. Very well.

13 Now, in these civilian buildings, were there soldiers?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can see that when I change

16 the tone, it's going much better.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... from reminding

18 me that I made a certain remark about your behaviour in this courtroom.

19 Would you please refrain from that. It's not --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will not do it any more.

21 Very well.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever I am talking, you find it necessary to

23 remind me five, six, seven times a day that I said something to you. I'll

24 not allow that any more.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, will not do it. Thank

Page 3799

1 you. Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. Witness, how many soldiers were there, as far as you know, in this

3 building or in these civilian buildings?

4 A. About 50.

5 Q. About 50. And they were located in one or several civilian

6 buildings?

7 A. They went to sleep. And then in the morning they would go to be

8 called, the roll called, that's all. And they went to their duty.

9 Q. Yes. But they were called in one or several buildings, civilian

10 buildings?

11 A. They were called to one building where the command was.

12 Q. Thank you for your answer.

13 However, you just said that they slept at home. So there were no

14 barracks that the soldiers could go to spend the night. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you for your answer.

17 Sir, you were a soldier for a number of months. And could you

18 tell me what weapons the soldiers had who were in these civilian

19 buildings?

20 A. Automatic rifles, nothing else.

21 Q. Did you not have any more important weapons, weapons that we call

22 bazookas, anti-tank weapons?

23 A. No, they had nothing like that.

24 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, as far as you as a soldier,

25 did you see any areas with trenches in your area of military activity?

Page 3800

1 A. It was hard to see that, where the trenches were. If you try to

2 look, you'd get killed.

3 Q. You yourself, you were never on duty in these trenches or anywhere

4 near the trenches?

5 A. No. We were at the entrance to the building, on anywhere.

6 Q. Were there soldiers in trenches or near trenches?

7 A. I never saw them but whoever came close would get killed.

8 Q. Yes. I understand, Witness, but as far as you know, I am asking

9 you as far as you know, when you were a soldier for several long months,

10 do you know, yes or no, these trenches had soldiers in?

11 A. I was at guard duty for two months, and after that, I was no

12 longer on duty. I simply drove a vehicle, and I don't know anything about

13 trenches.

14 Q. Sir, you just said that you were just driving a vehicle; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. While were you a soldier?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What was that vehicle?

20 A. Corsa.

21 Q. You mean Corsa is very rarely used by an army?

22 A. Opel Corsa.

23 Q. Was it a military vehicle?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So you were driving -- as a soldier, you were driving a civilian

Page 3801

1 vehicle?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. Thank you for your answer. This Corsa vehicle, did it look like a

4 small van?

5 A. No. It was a passenger car.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please break

7 between question and answer.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

9 Q. If you're telling me that as a soldier, you were driving a

10 military --

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you may not have heard it, but the

12 interpreting booth just requested that there be breaks between counsel's

13 questions and answers. Thank you.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you. Thank you to

15 my colleague from the Prosecution.

16 Q. So I believe that I heard your answer, sir. You said yes?

17 JUDGE ORIE: What happens is what happens now and then, that is

18 that it goes too quick, and I do know that you can hear the answer in the

19 original language, so would you please slow down.

20 I also will ask the witness. Mr. Kadric, would you please look at

21 your screen. Wait until the text stops moving and then answer the

22 question. Otherwise, the interpreters -- yes, perhaps you could change it

23 to text. As soon as it stops moving, would you then please answer the

24 question, since otherwise the interpreters are not able to follow you.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 3802












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3803

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ierace, for

2 your observation.

3 Thank you, Mr. President. I will try and slow down a little.

4 Q. So, Witness, I believe that I understand you said yes, so that's

5 correct, as a soldier, you were driving a civilian vehicle?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, Witness, as a soldier, did you wear a uniform?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. Thank you. Witness, during your period of military service, did

10 you ever receive a uniform?

11 A. No, never.

12 Q. Witness, what was the duration or the length of your daily

13 service, daily duty, while you were in the army?

14 A. It was during the day.

15 Q. So you were -- throughout the day, you were on duty?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Witness, without any exceptions?

18 A. What do you mean "without exceptions"?

19 Q. Well, yes. Perhaps you had some days when you went home?

20 A. I went home after I was -- I couldn't go home because I was driven

21 out of Pale.

22 Q. Witness, while you were driving the truck that you made a sketch

23 of, were you on duty then?

24 A. Yes. I was on duty. That was my work, civilian work. I did more

25 for the civilians than I did for the army.

Page 3804

1 Q. Now, Witness, my question was to find out whether you were on

2 duty.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Your question was not quite clear because it depended

4 on what kind of function, and I think the witness answered that question

5 perfectly well. He said he was in function, and then he explained that he

6 did more civilian work than military work. Please proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Witness, you, as a soldier, did you have any insignia, any

9 distinctive insignia, that could identify you as such?

10 A. No, I did not.

11 Q. Thank you for your answer. Did you have a weapon, a personal

12 weapon, that you had on you?

13 A. No, I did not.

14 Q. Thank you for your answer.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

16 have some localities indicated on the map, but first of all, I would like

17 to cover as much questions as we could to gain time. Is that all right?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, bottom line, so no confusion.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 Q. Witness, I would like us to now go back to the incident. And you

21 said a moment ago that the shots came from the institute for the blind and

22 you pointed to the first floor; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Witness, but you yourself did not see the shot? You did not see

25 the actual shot as such?

Page 3805

1 A. We couldn't see it because we were driving.

2 Q. Thank you for your answer. You also said that as far as you knew,

3 there were positions on the ground floor, firing positions on the ground

4 floor; is that correct?

5 A. I don't know what you mean by "ground floor."

6 Q. Very well. But Witness, you answered a Prosecution question in

7 relation to the building, the institute for the blind, as the question was

8 referring to the front line, the actual separation line between the two

9 parties. Could you please confirm that this was the case, that the

10 location where you were at the time of the incident was extremely near the

11 front line, in the immediate vicinity of the front line?

12 A. Yes. It was.

13 Q. Thank you for your answer. Could you indicate approximately, as

14 much as you can recall, what was the distance between you and the front

15 line?

16 A. I said it was about 200 metres, but many years have passed and, of

17 course, the war has ended, and I never took the trouble of measuring that

18 distance.

19 Q. Thank you for your answer. Now, Witness, I would like to go back

20 to some other elements of the cross-examination. You said at the very

21 beginning of your testimony yesterday that you had lived in Pale; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you for your answer. I believe that you said --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace?

Page 3806

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, about half a dozen questions back, my

2 friend said -- this is page 33, line 12, on the English transcript, "You

3 also said that as far as you knew, there were positions on the ground

4 floor, firing positions on the ground floor; is that correct?" Answer:

5 "I don't know what you mean by 'ground floor.'" I take it my friend was

6 referring to testimony by the witness about firing positions in this

7 school for the blind during examination-in-chief. I think that appears on

8 page 11 at line 6, and in fact the evidence of the witness is that it was

9 from the first floor. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a matter of fact, when I was not attentive,

11 it was because I was just checking because it was not my recollection.

12 I've got it now. It's page 11, line 6.

13 After having given the answer: "Well, at that part here, but

14 slightly higher up. They were on an upper floor." And the question was:

15 "Upper floor of what building?" And then the answer was: "The first

16 floor, the first floor. There was the ground floor and then the first

17 floor."

18 So the objection is sustained, although the question has already

19 been answered. And I may urge you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to be quite precise

20 in quoting, because if I ask you to find the line, you are implicitly

21 criticising me for wasting time. And if I do not urge you -- if you're

22 not referring to a specific line, I have to establish that you are not

23 very precise in your quoting.

24 So what I'll do is, as long as you are precise in quoting, I'll

25 not ask you at every occasion to indicate the exact line. If you continue

Page 3807

1 misquoting, then unfortunately, I'll have to give you an order that you

2 always specify exactly the source of your quotation. So it's up to you

3 either to become more precise or to be forced by me to do so.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. But

6 I never, never would criticise this Chamber in any case, but thank you for

7 your remark.

8 JUDGE ORIE: It's the tone sometimes again, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Witness, you said - and if it is necessary, I will find the

12 quote - but you said that you had been in -- you lived in Pale, and that

13 you arrived in Sarajevo. And I think I can recall that you said that you

14 had been driven away from Pale. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you for your answer.

17 Witness, when you say "driven away," could you perhaps be more

18 precise and tell us who drove you away?

19 A. Allegedly I was driven away by the army, by the Yugoslav army and

20 Karadzic's and Mladic's soldiers.

21 Q. Witness, thank you for this answer. You said that you then

22 arrived in Sarajevo after a while, that you lived with your relatives,

23 with your sister, then your sister-in-law. And I believe that you said

24 that you changed your apartment. Is that correct?

25 A. I arrived in Breka, and I stayed a night in Breka, and then the

Page 3808

1 next night I went to Vojnicko Polje.

2 Q. Witness, my question was the following: I believe you went to the

3 sister, sister-in-law, and that you changed. Is that correct?

4 A. I think you're confusing things. I went to my sister's on just

5 that day when you arrived from Vasin Han. From up there, we stayed a

6 night in Breka, and we then went to Vojnicko Polje the next day, to my

7 wife's brother.

8 Q. Very well. So you went to your sister's, and then to your

9 sister-in-law's, and then you changed your apartment, that you went

10 elsewhere.

11 A. He lived in number 13, on the first floor. And I went to live in

12 number 7 on the seventh floor.

13 Q. So you took another apartment, Witness, is that correct, not the

14 one of your sister-in-law?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. Witness, do you know who lived in that -- who had lived in that

17 other apartment before you entered that apartment?

18 A. I think I made a mistake. I first lived with my brother-in-law on

19 number 11, another floor, and then there was a shell, destroyed it all,

20 and then we moved to number 7. And then that's where we lived.

21 Q. Very well. But my question remains the same --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this is the third time that such

24 questions have been asked this week. They seem to involve displacement of

25 populations. There is no charge against General Galic which involves

Page 3809

1 displacement of population, and they are questions, in my respectful

2 submission, which lack any relevance to the charges which General Galic is

3 facing.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please respond.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly, Mr. President.

6 Now, the Prosecution spent some time explaining or asking the witness

7 whether he had been driven away from Pale, when he arrived in Sarajevo,

8 and so on. So if there was -- on one side, there was will to do this; now

9 the Defence side is trying to find out what happened in Sarajevo itself.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I strongly dispute that, and I invite

11 my friend to take the Trial Chamber to a transcript reference where I

12 "spent some time explaining or asking the witness whether he had been

13 driven away from Pale." The witness raised the issue; I immediately moved

14 on to a relevant topic.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I remind you of what is in the

16 transcript of yesterday. The question was: "During the conflict in

17 Sarajevo, were you living in Sarajevo?" The answer then was: "No, at

18 Pale." "Sorry, when did you move from Pale?" "On the 3rd or 4th of July,

19 1992, they moved us." And then the questioning continued thereafter:

20 "Did you live in Sarajevo?"

21 I do not see any specific questioning in the direction of Pale,

22 and only when the witness indicated that he -- at the beginning of the

23 conflict he lived in Pale. So I do not see that there's any ground in

24 that.

25 But if there's any other relevant aspect, please tell us.

Page 3810

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to confer for a

2 few moments.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will continue simply

5 with another line of questioning, Mr. President. Thank you. May I --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if there is any relevance in your question,

7 apart from that you do the same as you, in my view wrongly, suggested the

8 Prosecution did, I'd like to know because this issue might come up again

9 and again. I mean, what's the relevance of if you want to know whether

10 the witness has been --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- which was not his, okay, fine, it might have some

13 relevance. If you find it of any importance, please tell us why. And I'm

14 quite willing to allow you to put the questions. But I'd like to know

15 exactly what, apart from whether the Prosecution paid some attention to

16 it.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, very well,

18 Mr. President. But it is a little complex to explain, but I will do it.

19 One of the submissions of the Prosecution is to say there was a

20 policy of terrorising, and what the Defence is trying to submit, as far as

21 it can, is that there was a policy of terror in the other direction which

22 made people leave their place of residence, Serbia. It made Serbs leave

23 their place of residence. Now, if the witness --

24 JUDGE ORIE: What you want to establish now is whether there were

25 any empty houses by people that might have left the apartment. So if

Page 3811

1 that's what you -- I'll assist you.

2 Mr. Kadric, the apartment in which you finally lived after the

3 shelling, did you it belong to you or your family?


5 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know to whom it belonged?

6 THE WITNESS: I don't know his name. I used to, but I don't know

7 any more. He worked in Union Invest or something like that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know anything about whether it has belonged to

9 a citizen of Serbian origin who might have fled Sarajevo?

10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, it did.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Was that what you wanted to find out,

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? Three questions are quite enough.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but I do not know. I can

15 continue, but perhaps this is now time for our break.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you very much for assisting me. I forgot

17 to look at the clock.

18 Mr. Kadric, we'll first have a break, and then we'll continue.

19 We'll resume at 11.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

24 giving me the floor.

25 Q. Witness, good morning once again. You told us a while ago that as

Page 3812

1 the army driver or the soldier, you drove a civilian vehicle, and I

2 believe it was -- you said it was an Opel Corsa. Is that indeed what you

3 said some time ago?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Thank you for this answer. What or -- what or whom did you drive

6 in that vehicle?

7 A. Well, after shelling, we would be carrying the wounded, the dead,

8 and it was all there.

9 Q. So, your only duty was to evacuate the wounded in this vehicle?

10 A. Everybody, everybody, not only to evacuate the wounded or

11 civilians or somebody who dies. There were Serbs who had died, and I'd

12 put them in that vehicle and take them to the hospital.

13 Q. But this vehicle served for nothing else but for the evacuation of

14 the wounded?

15 A. Well, if a civilian had to go to the city, to the hospital or

16 whatever, then this vehicle was used.

17 Q. Witness, was this vehicle used also to transport the military?

18 A. No, no, no.

19 Q. Therefore, you were the only military person in that vehicle, is

20 that it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did anyone else drive it?

23 A. No, I was the only one.

24 Q. Witness, you told us yesterday - I did not check the place but I

25 can do it - that you had also another truck, and I believe you said that

Page 3813












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3814

1 it was a livestock truck, a truck to transport the livestock or something

2 that could be used for that purpose?

3 A. Yes, but -- there were those two trucks, but they stayed behind in

4 Lukavica.

5 Q. Witness, I'm reading your answer in the transcript, yet you tell

6 us that those two trucks stayed behind at Lukavica, is that it?

7 A. Yes. At Kula, at the abattoir, at the slaughterhouse, where the

8 prison was.

9 Q. When you speak about these two trucks, is it the two trucks that

10 your company had, that you had in your company?

11 A. That's right, for the livestock.

12 Q. Witness, so you had three trucks all in all, is that it?

13 A. Yes, yes, it is.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you for this answer, and now I'd like to ask you

15 my last questions.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But for that we need the map,

17 Mr. President.

18 Q. The question is: You said that the soldiers who were in the area

19 in which you lived had weapons. Did they fire from those arms?

20 A. No. Those weapons were there and those weapons were kept at the

21 guard posts. They were never taken anywhere from it.

22 Q. Witness, so these -- these weapons were never used throughout the

23 war; is that what you're saying?

24 A. No. They were used, but they were used at those places where the

25 guard posts were, where we kept guard.

Page 3815

1 Q. Witness, when I say that they were not used, it means that fire

2 was never opened from these weapons for the duration of the time period --

3 of the time that you knew about them.

4 A. Well, yes. Fire was opened from them but only -- I mean so --

5 only so as to let them know that we were there.

6 Q. Witness, you said during your testimony that at a certain time,

7 you were engaged with what, in the transcript, and as far as I remember,

8 was called the TO, which is the Territorial Defence, T-capital O-capital;

9 is that correct?

10 A. Well, yes, it is. When I came to the TO, that was all there was.

11 There was nothing else there.

12 Q. Witness, do you know the difference between the army, between an

13 army and the Territorial Defence?

14 A. I know what the difference is. The Territorial Defence is -- I

15 mean they guard, they protect the -- their territory, the local area where

16 they are.

17 Q. Witness, would it be correct to say that the Territorial Defence

18 is organised along military lines?

19 A. Well, yes. That is what it looked like.

20 Q. Thank you for this answer. And therefore, it also has brigades,

21 battalions and so on and so forth, doesn't it? The Territorial Defence

22 has it all; is that correct?

23 A. No. That was not the case there.

24 Q. Did the Territorial Defence have its own materiel?

25 A. What do you mean?

Page 3816

1 Q. Well, by "materiel," by "resources," I mean both mechanical --

2 mechanical devices and weapons.

3 A. Well, the weapons that we found in Serb flats, and that is what we

4 were left with.

5 Q. Witness, isn't it true, to your knowledge, that the Territorial

6 Defence had in its headquarters arsenals?

7 A. Nothing.

8 Q. Witness, if I understand you well, you are saying that the

9 Territorial Defence had no weapons in their premises? Is that it?

10 A. It didn't.

11 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe the

13 time has now come to show the witness the photo of 360 degrees which was

14 shown him some time ago.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could the technical booth assist us -- no, it's

16 the -- no, no. It's the case manager of the Prosecutor.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know, Mr. President,

18 if everybody here has the image on the screen.

19 Q. Witness, can you see it on your screen?

20 JUDGE ORIE: I have not. But I see on a lot of screens around me

21 that...

22 [Interpretation] Continue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

24 Mr. President.

25 Q. Witness, I think that you can see it on your screen, can you?

Page 3817

1 A. I have the image.

2 Q. So you have the image, very good. I believe that it is the same

3 image and that we now see pedestrian crossing and the traffic lights. Is

4 that so? Thank you.

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. Can you please take out the pointer which you perhaps have and

7 tell us where, very exactly, was the point for which the shots came from?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, a pointer on a television screen

9 is not possible.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but I was -- wanted --

11 under your control and for the transcript, I wanted to describe what the

12 witness is -- would be doing.

13 Q. So will you, Witness, please continue. Will you please show --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin -- Mr. Ierace. I'm even getting

15 confused.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, obviously the course that is proposed

17 by Mr. Piletta-Zanin will not work if we are not able to see where he

18 places the pointer. Could I respectfully suggest that if he wishes to

19 continue with this course, then perhaps Ms. Pilipovic and I could approach

20 the screen of the witness to see where he points and then one of us could

21 describe, for the benefit of the transcript, where he points to.

22 The only alternative to that would be for the witness to describe

23 from the image --

24 JUDGE ORIE: I think it will be an excellent exercise, because the

25 parties will come closer to each other, which I very much like.

Page 3818

1 Ms. Pilipovic -- one of the problems is that Ms. Pilipovic will

2 not be able, just as you'll not be able any more, to hear what is said.

3 So although the thought is very attractive for me, for practical reasons

4 it might not work out.

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you please guide the witness such that we'll

6 always have a clear description of what he -- there are two additional

7 headphones there. You can also choose the channel, I suggest? Yes.

8 So if you dare to come that close to each other, Ms. Pilipovic,

9 and then use the headphones.

10 So everyone has the right channel on his -- yes.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. So

13 now we shall try to be precise with the help of both parties.

14 Q. Witness, will you please show -- will you please point here --

15 will you please be so kind, to the best of your recollection, as to point

16 at the place from which the fire came from, which the fire was opened?

17 A. Yes, I can do that.

18 Q. Well, if you can do that, will you please point at it slowly so

19 that you can describe precisely which is the building from which the fire

20 was opened.

21 Witness, is it the building which is immediately behind the

22 traffic lights and where we see two trees? Is that the building that we

23 see here?

24 So for the transcript, it is the building in the centre of the

25 photograph behind the traffic lights and with two trees situated along the

Page 3819

1 facade of the building. Would that be correct, Witness?

2 A. [No audible response]

3 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is nodding no.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, where exactly is the building from which the fire could

6 have been opened? Can you please place it.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. Well, can you describe it? I see you are pointing to your right.

9 Can you describe the building that you are referring to? Does it mean the

10 building which is in the rear and which is on the right-hand side of the

11 screen?

12 A. Yes, it is. This is our building. These are our buildings, and

13 these are these smaller buildings, that home for the blind.

14 Q. Right. Now, Witness, is it the building which is behind this grey

15 box which looks like an industrial box on the pavement?

16 A. No, that box was not there. There was nothing like it before.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage I can provide a

18 description as to where the witness indicated the source of fire in

19 response to the second-last question.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, the Defence does not

21 object. It is quite to the contrary because we do not know exactly to

22 where the witness is pointing.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the image on the screen at the moment

24 shows a pedestrian crossing in the bottom centre. The blue garbage bin is

25 to the right of the image. The position indicated by the witness was to

Page 3820

1 the right of the blue garbage bin; that is, in between the high-rise, the

2 end of the high-rise buildings to the left, and the tree to the right. In

3 that space, which is approximately a centimetre wide on the image, there

4 appears a blue portion beneath it, a reddish portion, and a bit of a

5 shadow beneath it. About a centimetre below is the grass.

6 The witness pointed to the reddish portion which occupies the

7 space between the green tree to the right and the last of the high-rise

8 buildings to the left.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I see a

10 mouse which is moving over the screen. Can the case manager please point

11 the mouse towards this place which is shown by -- which is pointed at by

12 the witness. Is that possible? Can the mouse be used for that purpose?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is it possible to move this marker without changing

14 the picture? Yes.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perfect, excellent.

16 Q. Witness, do you now see a sign? It is next to a tree. Is that

17 the place that you indicated?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we continue in this way?

19 Would this be a good kind of cooperation?

20 JUDGE ORIE: It's then necessary to describe in words, but

21 clarification can be made by putting the pointer at the specific point.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm talking to the

23 case manager. Can you please put the cursor on the building which was

24 indicated by the witness and as indicated by Mr. Ierace? That is -- this

25 is the high-rise building which is on the right-hand side -- on the

Page 3821

1 left-hand side of the image, a little bit to -- no, no, no, between two

2 trees, between the two trees. Will you come back more? More. More. To

3 the right, to the right, go to the right of the image. Go back where you

4 were before. Yes, you were in a perfect place. Yes, excellent.

5 Q. Now, Witness, you see the cursor. You said a moment ago that

6 there was a hole which was made in the facade of the building from which

7 fire was opened. Can you tell us where exactly was that hole? Can we see

8 it?

9 A. No, you can't. I can't even see the building here but the hole

10 was on the first floor, not on the ground floor. It was on the first

11 floor near to the street. The street was the straight one which goes

12 between the -- those trees.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage, may we return to the

14 bar tables?

15 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the counsel. Can you please come

16 closer.

17 MR. IERACE: Might we return to the bar tables at this stage?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You want to go back to your original

19 positions. I have full understanding for that.

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 And thank you, Mr. Ierace, and thank you, case manager, for the

23 assistance.

24 Q. Witness, I believe I heard you say a moment ago that on this

25 photograph, you could not see the place from which the fire was opened.

Page 3822

1 Is that what you said?

2 A. Well, not right now.

3 Q. Right, yes, yes, yes, on this photograph. I understand. One

4 cannot see it on this photograph. Is that how I should understand your

5 words?

6 A. More or less. You can see something white and something red.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and witness please break

9 between question and answer.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the interpreters still have

11 problems in following. Would you please slow down. And also, may I ask

12 Mr. Kadric to wait until -- you have a picture on your screen now. That's

13 very difficult to know exactly where the text would have stopped moving.

14 But could you please take a break every time between the question, once

15 it's put to you, and the answer.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much for

17 your comments, Mr. President. I'm very sorry. I'll slow down a little

18 bit.

19 Q. Witness, we shall now ask that this image be panned to the right

20 and I will ask you, when you think that you are able to locate precisely

21 the place, the spot, from which the fire came, to then tell us that.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can the image -- can this be

23 panned, please, to the right? In the other direction. Yes, perfect. Can

24 we stop now, please. Thank you.

25 Q. Witness, and from this angle here, can you see the place from

Page 3823

1 which the shots came precisely?

2 A. Yes. You can see the two buildings here and the one to the left.

3 MR. IERACE: May we approach the --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Sorry, Witness, I will ask you to slowly and precisely point from

7 where, according to your recollection, came those shots. And Ms. Counsel

8 Pilipovic will indicate it into the microphone.

9 A. It is this point here and the roof.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness is

11 pointing at two white dots, above which one can see at a distance a roof.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not a roof, no. This is not

13 a roof.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kadric, could you please guide the case manager

15 of the Prosecutor's Office to indicate with the marker on the screen

16 exactly, so you say "down" or "left" or "right," so until the marker is

17 exactly at the spot which you indicated. Would it be down to start with

18 or ... Could you please guide, just say "down" or "right" or "left."

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Down, to the left, to the left, to

20 the left, yes, left, here, left, left, more to the left, more to the left,

21 and more to the left, and more to the left, and more to the left, more to

22 the left. Stop. Now a bit to the right, to the right, a bit more to the

23 right, lower down, a little bit down, to the left. There. About that.

24 But this is a photograph, so you can't be quite exact.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

Page 3824












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Page 3825

1 Q. Yes, indeed, thank you for this answer.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So for the transcript, the

3 cursor is practically at the bottom of the building, which is the last

4 building in the second row of buildings on the screen and quite near a

5 tree line, and that is dark green, and to the left, there is the first

6 cluster of trees in the foreground. I believe that for the transcript,

7 Mr. President, this will be objective enough.

8 Thank you, Witness.

9 I would like to continue on this photograph but we no longer need

10 our assistants, to whom I extend my thanks.

11 Now, Madam Case Manager, could you continue the rotation, please.

12 Still to the right, please. Could we perhaps stop. Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, under the cursor that you can see in the centre of the

14 image, there is an area which seems to be made up of buildings that are of

15 medium height. Could you tell us what they are? What is this area?

16 A. Stupsko Brdo.

17 Q. Witness, this hill, under whose control was it in the military

18 sense?

19 A. What can I say? How can I say it? Serbian army, Serb army, they

20 kept it there while the Oslobodjenja building was the other side.

21 Q. When you say, "liberation forces," you mean there were two forces

22 on this hill?

23 A. No, no, no. I meant Oslobodjenja printing house, the building,

24 Oslobodjenja building. This was the journalists. That had burnt from

25 that hill. It was -- they fired shots which set it on fire and it was

Page 3826

1 burning for days, and that's what it was.

2 Q. Witness, who was in the Oslobodjenja building, which is a printing

3 house?

4 A. Yes, it's a printing house.

5 Q. Yes. We agree that this was a printing house. But could you tell

6 us who was in control of that building?

7 MR. IERACE: Perhaps --

8 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Ierace?

9 MR. IERACE: My friend just changed the question so I withdraw the

10 objection.


12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So could we continue?

13 Q. I'm going to reread the question in the transcript so that I can

14 be precise.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to know who was in -- who was controlling

16 the Oslobodjenja building that question has been answered already, hasn't

17 it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin? The witness said, "How can I say it?" He was

18 referring to the Stupsko Brdo. He said, "How could I say it? Serbian

19 army, Serb army, they kept it there, while this --" and then he referred

20 to the Oslobodjenja building -- "was the other side." So unless you find

21 more than two parties in the conflict, I don't understand.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. But there were many

23 sides unfortunately. There was the Serb army, which was there near Stup

24 so I'm not sure whether it is efficient but if it is clear to the Chamber,

25 then all the better, of course. I thought it would be useful to clarify.

Page 3827

1 JUDGE ORIE: Did I understand you well, Mr. Kadric, that the

2 Oslobodjenja building was under the control of the Bosnian --

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina side?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. There was no presence of a Croat army in the building?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Very well. Do you know if a Croat army was anywhere near this

10 area?

11 A. It was in the other area, further down from Stup.

12 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you to

14 continue to rotate the image, please. Perhaps we could stop here,

15 please. Thank you.

16 Q. Now, Witness, could you indicate, could you tell us the name of

17 the hill that we can see -- that we can see behind this Bulevar which goes

18 on into the background?

19 A. That's Buljakov Potok. I don't know what the hill is called. But

20 this is Buljakov Potok and also a rubbish dump. To the right is a rubbish

21 dump, but that is Buljakovo settlement.

22 Q. Thank you for your answer.

23 Witness, do you know under whose control in a military sense still

24 was of that area?

25 A. The BH army.

Page 3828

1 Q. Thank you, Witness.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that

3 we are finished with the photograph. We would now like to show a map to

4 the witness, if the Chamber will allow it.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. This is

7 a map that you have already seen, and we have tried to erase all the

8 markings.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you asked for

12 all markings to be erased, but I'm not sure whether we managed to have it

13 done.

14 I don't know whether everyone has a map. I think -- I believe

15 they do.

16 Now, could we have the -- can we see the map on the screen,

17 please. Here we are. I believe everyone can see the map now.

18 Mr. President, may I continue? Thank you.

19 Q. Witness, you have on your right -- yes, very well. Yes, look

20 towards your right, and you have a map before you which you can also see

21 on your screen. And could you please take your time, and if you can tell

22 us if you can recognise this partial map of Sarajevo.

23 A. I do.

24 Q. Thank you for your answer. Thank you.

25 Would it be possible, Witness, to indicate for us the area of

Page 3829

1 Nedzarici?

2 A. Yes, I can.

3 Q. Could you indicate with a pointer on the area of Nedzarici,

4 please?

5 A. Approximately. I'm not totally accurate.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, would it be

7 possible to ask that the witness be given a black marker pen.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please give a black marker.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, could you now make a circle around the area that you have

11 just indicated on this map.

12 A. Approximately like this.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness.

14 Could you perhaps put a number "1" inside this area so that we

15 know that this area indicates the Nedzarici area.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Perhaps next to, next to the area. That's it. No, no, no. Not

18 inside; next to it.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 Now, Witness, could you please indicate where one or several

22 command posts were that we spoke about earlier in relation to your

23 military duty.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Could you perhaps make a cross, perhaps a slightly more visible

Page 3830

1 cross, please.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you.

4 Perhaps you could mark a number "2" next to it. Thank you.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Thank you.

7 Witness, near this area, was there an area where there were

8 Civilian Defence premises near there, or perhaps the premises of the

9 Territorial Defence anywhere near this area? And if your answer is yes,

10 then please tell me so.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you please mark a number "3" next to this dot.

13 A. Just a moment.

14 Q. Still on the right of the dot.

15 A. Just a moment. This is the road, so it's further down. So it's

16 roughly here.

17 Q. Very well.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, for the transcript, the

19 witness changed his first dot, and his new point is in the vertical axe

20 which goes up from number 1 and it goes in the upper part above number 1.

21 Q. Now, Witness, could you perhaps put a number "3" next to the

22 point. If you put it on top of the old dot -- yes -- then we can see it

23 clearly. Thank you very much.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Now, Witness, where did you live at the time? Can you indicate it

Page 3831

1 for us on the map?

2 A. Here, in number 7. Here. There was the entrance.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, for the transcript, the

4 witness is indicating the cross next to number 2.

5 Q. Now, thank you very much, Witness.

6 Now, we'll go to the neighbourhood that you mentioned yourself,

7 which is the neighbourhood of Dobrinja. And I believe, as far as I can

8 recall, you said that the HQ of the 5th Motorised Brigade was in Dobrinja,

9 and I believe that you said Dobrinja II. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you for your answer.

12 Now, Witness, the map that you can see before you, could you tell

13 us where Dobrinja is on it, and more precisely, Dobrinja II, and if you

14 can put number 2 in Roman numerals, please.

15 A. Approximately here. Let me just see where the water is. The

16 river is -- yes, the river is line. I would say that this is where it

17 is.

18 Q. Yes, exactly. On the river.

19 A. Yes, approximately here.

20 Q. Witness, could you please make a marking of a Roman numeral number

21 2 to the area which corresponds to Dobrinja II, that is, two parallel

22 lines, please.

23 If you prefer, you can just put a number "4" next to it, but this

24 is just so that we don't have any confusion later on.

25 Witness, the area that you indicated a moment ago, I believe that

Page 3832

1 you said that that was Dobrinja II. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes, this is where I will say where it is.

3 Q. Okay. Can you please mark a number "4." It will be simpler.

4 A. It's approximately here.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 Could you tell us exactly in Dobrinja II where the premises of the

7 5th Motorised Brigade were?

8 A. It was approximately here where the number 4 is.

9 Q. Could you please give us the street again, which was not

10 translated for the transcript? You did say -- could you give us the name

11 of the street, please.

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Very well.

14 Witness, as far as you know, in Dobrinja, were there other

15 military installations, military facilities, that had command posts there?

16 A. I don't know. I only came there. I wasn't always there.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 Witness, you indicated that the vehicle that you were driving at

19 the time was used to transport the wounded. Did you also take them to

20 Dobrinja?

21 A. No, I did not. No, I did not.

22 Q. Witness, do you know, in your capacity as a soldier, how many

23 battalions were there in the 5th Brigade?

24 A. About four.

25 Q. What was their strength? I think you said it already, but perhaps

Page 3833

1 you can give us again the total strength of the brigade.

2 A. I don't know that.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 Very last question: Sir, did your son go to school during --

5 A. Yes, he did.

6 Q. What was his school and where was it?

7 A. He went to the -- to one, and then when he returned from the

8 Emirates, he then went to the economics school up in town. I think it was

9 in Dzure Dzakovica Street. That's where his school was.

10 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.

11 Did he go every day?

12 A. When it was possible, he did go every day. When there was

13 shooting, he did not go.

14 Q. Witness, could you show us on the map where this school was?

15 Could you indicate for us on the map, please.

16 A. You cannot see it on this map.

17 Q. Does this mean that this is much further away from Nedzarici?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. How often did your son go to school?

20 A. He went, but I don't know exactly when he did go and when he

21 didn't go. This all changed, you see.

22 Q. But he did go to school, didn't he?

23 A. Yes, he did. But I don't know when he went and when he didn't

24 go.

25 Q. You were not aware of the rhythm that he followed to go to school?

Page 3834

1 A. I can't remember when it was, how it was.

2 Q. Your son -- your son lived with you in your apartment, didn't he?

3 A. Yes, he did.

4 Q. Witness, did your son finish his school, complete his school?

5 A. He completed about one year or so, and he -- then he was shot, and

6 then he didn't complete. And then when he returned from the Emirates, he

7 then continued with his schooling.

8 Q. Very well. But before he was wounded, was he able to finish his

9 previous year in the college?

10 A. What do you mean to complete?

11 Q. That is, to go to the end of the school year, to the end of the

12 school year of the year in question.

13 A. When he was wounded, he was not able to go.

14 Q. My question was about the period preceding the wounded.

15 A. He probably went, but I don't know what you're trying to get out

16 of me.

17 Q. The truth, Witness.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No more questions,

19 Mr. President.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're looking for the truth.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is there any need to re-examine the

22 witness?

23 MR. IERACE: Just a few questions, Mr. President, arising out of

24 the last few questions.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

Page 3835












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Page 3836

1 Re-examination by Mr. Ierace:

2 Q. You said that your son did not go to school when there was

3 shooting?

4 A. No, he did not.

5 Q. All right.

6 A. I'm sorry. I forgot how often he went. But of course, if there

7 was a lot of shooting, when there was shelling, when it was practically

8 thundering all day, of course I wouldn't allow him to go to school.

9 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

11 Judge Nieto-Navia will put some questions to you.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Usher, would you please put the photograph

14 3277-4301.

15 Do you see in the middle of the photo to the left of the centre,

16 two blue lines drawn by you?

17 A. Yes, I can.

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: And what are those lines? What do they

19 indicate?

20 A. That the trees were lower. What I mean is the trees were lower

21 then than it was when the picture was taken.

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That's what the lines signify.

23 A. When I was asked the question if the trees were higher or lower,

24 and I put a line there to cut off how high, so that's what I marked. Of

25 course, they were lower because seven or eight years had passed since the

Page 3837

1 shooting.


3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kadric, since Judge El Mahdi nor myself have any

4 additional questions to you, this is the conclusion of your examination as

5 a witness. We are all aware of that very long way you came from Sarajevo

6 to The Hague, and we would like to thank you very much for taking the

7 effort to come such a -- from such a far distance. You well understand

8 that it's of great importance for this Court to hear the answers to

9 questions put by both parties to the witnesses, and also the answers given

10 to questions put to you by the Judges. This information is very important

11 for us since we'll have to take decisions and we are dependent on the

12 information that is brought into this courtroom, and since you have

13 contributed to that, we would like to thank you very much. And of course,

14 I wish you a very safe trip home again.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, then, would you please lead Mr. Kadric out

17 of the courtroom?

18 Thank you, Mr. Kadric.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace?

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before the next witness is brought in,

22 could I say a few words at this point about the issue raised by

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin this morning?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we first deal with the exhibits and then -- I

25 should say documents, because they are not exhibits yet.

Page 3838

1 Madam Registrar, if you could please assist me, as far as I can

2 see, the following documents have been tendered in evidence. First is

3 P3108, which is a map, a premarked map.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then the second, as far as I can see, is P3107, which

6 is a sketch of a vehicle. If it would assist you, it looks approximately

7 like this. You find it, I see.

8 THE REGISTRAR: I found it, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: It has been additionally marked during the -- it has

10 been marked during the examination.

11 Then we have P3280N, which is, am I correct in my understanding,

12 the video?

13 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And then we have P3279N, which is the 360-degree

15 photographs on the CD-ROM.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have P3277, which is a premarked photograph.

18 That's the photograph that has just been shown to the witness, as far as I

19 understand. That's the --

20 THE REGISTRAR: I have it, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have a set of two photos under one number.

22 That's P3279NN.

23 Then we finally have a Defence Exhibit, which is a map which has

24 not been numbered yet, but it will then get the next number on the exhibit

25 list. Could you please tell us what would be the next number on the

Page 3839

1 Defence exhibit list. I think we are approximately in our mid-40s.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Defence D48, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: 48. They are all admitted into evidence.

4 Please, Mr. Ierace, proceed.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this morning, Mr. Piletta-Zanin said

6 that the Defence had been given some documents by the Prosecution, but he

7 said that the documents were exhibits, and they were given to the Defence

8 yesterday for a crucial witness that the Prosecution is calling next

9 week. I have made some inquiries. The documents are not exhibits. They

10 are not proposed exhibits. The witness will not be called next week, will

11 not be called indeed for three or four weeks. The photographs, which were

12 entirely illegible, were attached to a statement by Adnan Tuzovic which

13 was served on the Defence as part of our disclosure obligations. Adnan

14 Tuzovic is a witness who will be called in the shelling phase. I

15 anticipate he will not be called for three or four weeks.

16 The photographs come from a report which was attached to the

17 statement served yesterday. The statement entirely concerns events after

18 the tenure of General Galic. In other words, there is nothing in the

19 statement or the attached report which will be relied upon for the

20 Prosecution. The only reason it was served was as part of our disclosure

21 obligations. In any event, I will ascertain as to whether we have

22 photographs which are legible, and if we do, either copies will be

23 provided to the Defence or they will be given an opportunity to inspect

24 them. I suspect that, given the entirely useless nature of the

25 photocopies provided to the Defence, that the originals are either no

Page 3840

1 better or only slightly better. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I just first ask you a

3 question: What made you believe that these documents would be tendered as

4 exhibits next week?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I shall be very

6 precise. I do not know if I said next week or following -- one of the

7 following weeks, but I do not know. I can check it in the transcript.

8 But it is for one of the forthcoming witnesses, at any rate. It is one of

9 the forthcoming witnesses. And we think that there are -- that there is a

10 considerable chance that these documents will be tendered, and if we want

11 to conscientiously look at the things, and if we make the trouble to go

12 through them, then we can do that only with legible documents. And for a

13 document to be usable, that is not the way in which they were given us.

14 And that is the only reason I raised it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, allow me, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to assist you in

16 finding in the transcript exactly what you said. It's on page 1, lines 15

17 and following. "Documents given by the Prosecution because there is a

18 number of exhibits that we were given yesterday for crucial witness that

19 we should hear next week." That's what you said. That's what you told

20 the Court. Would you please tell me on what basis you informed the Court

21 that it was about a witness which would appear next week, since there

22 seems to be some dispute on this?

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Possibly it was a misreading.

24 It was our impression, but if that was not the case, in that case, I

25 apologise, but we understood that this witness would be coming the next

Page 3841

1 week.

2 JUDGE ORIE: What gave you reason to assume that, since we have a

3 list of witnesses for next week, haven't we?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. No. I think it was

5 simply a case much misreading. I received this information --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you received these documents

7 yesterday, and if you're not happy with them, would you perhaps pay more

8 attention to the first thing you told the Court, that you are better

9 communicating with the Prosecution. There was no reason whatsoever not to

10 find out between the two parties this morning what was the function of

11 these documents, whether the Prosecution could provide you with any better

12 copies, and when they would be used in evidence, instead of telling us

13 that it would be next week. As I urged before, it's first up to the

14 parties to communicate to each other, and only if you cannot solve your

15 problems, then ask the intervention of the bench.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will bear this in mind. We

19 shall check it, but at least the document remains illegible.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Everything has been said about this, what has to be

21 said.

22 Mr. Ierace, would you please call your next witness?

23 MR. IERACE: I call Medina Omerovic. And I can indicate that her

24 evidence relates to schedule -- sniping incident number 25.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 3842

1 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome in this courtroom, Ms. Omerovic. Prior to

4 giving testimony in this courtroom, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence

5 require you to make a solemn declaration that you will tell the truth, the

6 whole truth and nothing but the truth. The text will be given to you now

7 by the usher, and I invite to you make the solemn declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Omerovic. Please be seated.

13 Ms. Omerovic, since you have been called as a witness for the

14 Prosecution, you'll first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.

15 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

16 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

17 Q. Is your name Medina Omerovic?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Were you born on the 17th of October, 1977?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In 1992, were you living in Sarajevo?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When the armed conflict began around the middle of 1992,

24 whereabouts were you living? What address?

25 A. Dure Jaksica 17.

Page 3843

1 Q. What was that place? Was it a house or an apartment block or

2 something else?

3 A. An apartment block.

4 Q. Now, at some stage during the conflict, did you have a friend by

5 the name of Sanela Muratovic?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. Was she younger than you or older than you or about the same age?

8 A. She was younger than I.

9 Q. How much younger than you was she?

10 A. About a year.

11 Q. Was there a time during the conflict that you were with your

12 friend and she was shot?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. What was the date that that happened?

15 A. The 26th of June, 1994.

16 Q. In what street were you and she when she was shot?

17 A. In Dure Jaksica 17.

18 Q. I think you said earlier that was the street and the number where

19 you lived. Is that correct?

20 A. It is.

21 Q. Were you headed towards your place of residence or away from your

22 place of residence or what at the time that she was shot?

23 A. We were walking towards the building that I lived in.

24 Q. Having regard to your date of birth, on that date, were you age

25 16?

Page 3844

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. Where were you coming from at the time that she was shot? Where

3 had you been?

4 A. We had been to see my sister.

5 Q. And why were you going back towards your place?

6 A. We were going there to get a book.

7 Q. All right. And where exactly were you when she was shot? By

8 that, I mean were you on some grass somewhere or on a footpath or

9 whereabouts? What type of surface?

10 A. It was a street, and we had started crossing it towards my

11 building.

12 Q. Now, you've told us that you had been living in that building

13 since the beginning of the war. Whereabouts was the nearest part of the

14 confrontation line from your building, approximately how far from your

15 building?

16 A. Not far. There was only a street between us.

17 Q. And had there been some measures taken by this date, the date that

18 your friend was shot, to make the area safer for civilians such as

19 yourselves to cross the street?

20 A. Well, we were warned by soldiers who were on the other side that

21 sniper fire had started and to hurry up. And so we started running, and

22 then it happened at that very moment.

23 Q. All right. Now, as you ran across the road, whereabouts was the

24 confrontation line? Was it to your left or to your right or straight

25 ahead or behind you?

Page 3845

1 A. Well, it was in front and to the right.

2 Q. As the two of you ran across the road, where was Sanela in

3 relation to you, in particular at the instant she was shot? Was she to

4 your left, or to your right, or somewhere else; behind, in front?

5 A. To my right.

6 Q. Can you tell us what happened as you and she ran across the road.

7 A. We heard a shot. We started running, and I saw that Sanela had

8 been hit because there was blood on her T-shirt.

9 Q. Go on. What happened after that?

10 A. Then we went down into a trench and soldiers ran up to us and took

11 her to a hospital.

12 Q. You told us that you were heading back to your place in order to

13 get a book. Was there any other danger area that you had to cross on your

14 journey back to your apartment, apart from the street outside your

15 apartment?

16 A. There were quite a number of danger spots, but they were rather

17 well protected. There was some large containers so that we were

18 relatively safe when going there.

19 Q. Do you still know Sanela Muratovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were you able to work out why there was blood on her T-shirt?

22 A. Because she was hit, because a bullet struck her. She was

23 wounded.

24 Q. Did you see the wound at some stage, either that day or at a later

25 time?

Page 3846












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3847

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were you able to -- withdraw that.

3 Whereabouts on her T-shirt was the blood that you saw?

4 A. On her right shoulder.

5 Q. Are you able to say whether it was towards the front of her right

6 shoulder or towards the back or the side or in more than one place?

7 A. Front, on the front side of her right shoulder.

8 JUDGE ORIE: If you would take it a bit more...

9 Yes, please proceed.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


12 Q. What was Sanela wearing at that time that she was shot, apart from

13 her T-shirt?

14 A. She was wearing trousers and sneakers.

15 Q. What were you wearing?

16 A. I had shorts, a T-shirt, and sneakers.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown the

18 video which is P3280O.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I think we have still got seven minutes,

20 so it's useful to play the video, and then you have time to put a few

21 questions to the witness. So please proceed, then.

22 MR. IERACE: Yes.

23 Q. Ms. Omerovic, you've told us that you lived in this apartment

24 building through the conflict. There was an area of danger immediately

25 out of -- at the front of the apartment block. And by the time this

Page 3848

1 happened in mid-1994, you were 16. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you know other children, apart from your friend Sanela, who

4 lived in that same area during those years?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Having regard to your answers, it would seem that you lived in an

7 area of constant and extreme danger; is that correct?

8 A. It is.

9 Q. Did you live all of the time -- I withdraw that. The apartment in

10 which you lived was on what floor of the block?

11 A. The third floor.

12 Q. Was there any period of time that you lived at that address, but

13 not on the third floor?

14 A. Yes, there was.

15 Q. Where was that in the building?

16 A. In the cellar of the same building.

17 Q. For how long did you live in the cellar?

18 A. For a year.

19 Q. How many times did you come out of the cellar in that one-year

20 period?

21 A. Not once.

22 Q. Did you live in the cellar with your family?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were there any other families that lived in the cellar with you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3849

1 Q. How many?

2 A. Seven families, including ours.

3 Q. Did any of those other families include children?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was there any power when you were living in the cellar?

6 A. There was in the beginning, but later on, no.

7 Q. When did that one year of your life commence?

8 A. In April, 1992. Could have been late April.

9 Q. Did the cellar have any windows? And if so, how many?

10 A. One small.

11 Q. With your hands, could you show us the size of the window?

12 A. Yes. [Indicates].

13 Q. Was one of the boys, one of the children who spent that year with

14 you in the cellar Dejan Stevanovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, just for the sake of the record, the

17 witness has indicated the size of the window. I think she indicated a

18 size of approximately 20 by 40 centimetres.

19 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


22 Q. What happened to him?

23 A. In the spring of 1994, he was killed. He went out into the street

24 - it happened in the same street but a bit further away, and on the other

25 side - and a sniper got him.

Page 3850

1 Q. How do you know that he was killed in that spot?

2 A. Well, first I had heard the noise and then we went to the window,

3 even though it was dangerous, and we saw him lying down in the street, and

4 his dad then went out and he died shortly afterwards. I mean, he could

5 have lived for another ten seconds or so.

6 MR. IERACE: Would that be a convenient time, Mr. President?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

8 Ms. Omerovic, we will first have a break, and then Mr. Ierace will

9 continue examining you. So we will adjourn until ten minutes to 1.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might we view the video which is

14 P3280O.

15 Q. Ms. Omerovic, would you please look at the computer screen in

16 front of you and we should shortly see a video.

17 [Videotape played]

18 "INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Could you please show me, as closely as

19 you can recall, where the edges of the trench were at around the time when

20 your friend Sanela Muratovic was shot?

21 I'll mark this plane with yellow paint. I'll mark this plane with

22 yellow paint.

23 Could you please point in the direction in which you and Sanela

24 were travelling that day at the time when Sanela was shot, to the best of

25 your recollection.

Page 3851

1 Would you please show me approximately, to the best of your

2 recollection, where you were at the time that Sanela was shot.

3 And in relation to yourself, can you indicate, please,

4 approximately where, to the best of your recollection, Sanela was

5 located."


7 Q. Ms. Omerovic, did you recognise yourself on that video?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. The investigator asked you to point out certain things. When you

10 complied with his requests, did you do so truthfully and to the best of

11 your recollection?

12 A. Yes, to the best of my recollection.

13 Q. The first request that he made was for you to indicate a position

14 of a trench. And you indicated, I think, two sides of the trench, and you

15 did so alongside a footpath curb.

16 Did that trench completely cross the road from that curb?

17 A. Yes, it did.

18 Q. You indicated that you and Sanela were in a position to the right

19 of that trench at the time that she was shot. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It seems from the video that you and she had only just left the

22 curb at the moment that she was shot. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, over the period of the armed conflict that you were not in

25 the cellar, did you develop an understanding as to the source or sources

Page 3852

1 of fire in relation to the area outside your apartment?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where were those -- where was that source or sources of fire?

4 A. There was the institute for blind children, and also the

5 surrounding area of Nedzarici behind our building.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown

7 Exhibit P3279OO. It's an exhibit which comprises two photographs.

8 I ask the photograph which ends with the numbers "08" be placed on

9 the ELMO.

10 Q. Ms. Omerovic, will you please turn to your right and look at the

11 photograph which is placed on the white board. Do you recognise what

12 appears in that photograph?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What is that area?

15 A. This is the locality of Nedzarici. It was -- the photograph was

16 taken in front of the institute for blind children.

17 Q. Whereabouts was the confrontation line between the opposing forces

18 at the time that Sanela was shot? And in particular, can you see on that

19 photograph where the confrontation line was or not?

20 A. Yes, I can.

21 Q. On the desk in front of you, there is a metal pointer. Could you

22 take that and point to the position of the front line at that time on the

23 photograph?

24 A. [Indicates]

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the witness has drawn the pointer

Page 3853

1 across the photograph from left to right, commencing at what appears to be

2 a concrete shell of a building on the lower left, drawing the pointer

3 across towards the bottom of the line of high-rise apartments which appear

4 on the right.

5 Q. Ms. Omerovic, in relation to the high-rise buildings which appear

6 about halfway down the photograph and to the right of centre, do you agree

7 that in this photograph they appear to be in a semi-demolished condition?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where was the front line at that place in relation to those

10 buildings? In other words, were those buildings on the front line, or

11 were they slightly either side of the front line, on one side of the front

12 line?

13 A. On the other side, on the other side of the road.

14 Q. When you say "on the other side," do you understand the opposing

15 forces to be the Bosnian Serb army and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On which side were those buildings?

18 A. I don't understand the question. Which buildings do you mean?

19 I'm sorry.

20 Q. All right. Do you see that on the right-hand side of the

21 photograph, there are the buildings which appear to be semi-derelict, if I

22 could put it that way?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you just point to those buildings with your pointer so that

25 we all make sure we understand what we're talking about. Because when you

Page 3854

1 do that, we can see on our screens where you are pointing.

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. Could you do it once more, please.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. All right.

6 Could you place your pointer on the -- what appears to be the

7 concrete building on the left-hand side of the photograph, and it appears

8 to be just a ground floor. Could you place your pointer on that

9 building.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Just a little lower. Could you bring the tip of your pointer down

12 a little lower. A bit lower further.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. All right. Now, that building that you're pointing to at the

15 moment, which side of the confrontation line was that on, or was it in the

16 middle of the confrontation line?

17 A. It was in the middle of the confrontation line.

18 Q. Would you point to the tree which appears in the middle of the

19 photograph approximately.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Now, would you move your pointer slightly to the right of the

22 tree. Further to the right. A little further up.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Now, that line of buildings, that is the buildings which extend

25 from the tree to the edge of the photograph on the right-hand side,

Page 3855

1 whereabouts were those buildings in relation to the confrontation lines?

2 A. On the right-hand side.

3 Q. On which side of the confrontation line? In other words, the

4 Bosnian Serb Army side or the side where you lived?

5 A. On the side that I lived.

6 Q. Was anyone living in those buildings in 1994, do you know?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you know anyone who lived in those buildings?

9 A. A few of them.

10 Q. All right. Now, towards the centre of the photograph, just to the

11 left of the tree, there appears the side of a building which is

12 reddish-brown and it has white, horizontal stripes. Do you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you please point to it and hold the pointer there for a few

15 seconds.

16 A. [Indicates].

17 Q. All right. Beneath that, at ground level, there appears a white

18 building of just one storey, that is the ground level, with a series of

19 windows. Could you please point to that.

20 A. [Indicates].

21 Q. Yes. What is that building, that is the white building which is

22 just a ground-level construction?

23 A. That is a restaurant, which at the time was not there.

24 Q. Would you now look at the second photograph. And perhaps that

25 could be placed on the ELMO. It ends with the numbers 17A. Do you

Page 3856

1 recognise this photograph to be --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. And by comparing it to the earlier photograph, does it

4 appear to be a telephoto shot of the area in the centre of the previous

5 photograph?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Given that, is the white building in this photograph, that is

8 ending with 17A, the cafe that you referred to -- the restaurant, rather,

9 that you referred to?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In this photograph, one can see damage to the buildings except for

12 the restaurant; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In the white building to the right, with the balconies, one can

15 see what appear to be black spots on the wall; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On the wall of the red brick building, above the restaurant, one

18 can also see what appear to be small holes; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know what caused those holes?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you please tell us.

23 A. This is from shelling and from sniping.

24 Q. Between those two buildings, in the background, one can see some

25 balconies with damage to the walls of that building. Can you see that?

Page 3857












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3858

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did that damage have the same cause?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness now be shown Exhibit P3270, which

5 also consists of two photographs.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I just ask you one question? The

7 first exhibit, P3280, the video, you added a single O. For 3279, you

8 added the double O. Is there any specific reason for that? Otherwise, I

9 can imagine it would create some confusion, but --

10 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you will answer the question later, if it has

12 to be found out. You continue now.

13 MR. IERACE: I ask the photograph which does not have the pen

14 markings on it be placed on the ELMO. For the record, this is part of

15 Exhibit P3270.

16 Q. Do you recognise the view which appears in the photograph before

17 you?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. Does that photograph show the cafe that -- the restaurant that

20 you've earlier referred to?

21 A. It does.

22 Q. In this photograph, it has an awning extended; is that correct?

23 A. It does.

24 Q. Also in this photograph, we can see more of the buildings between

25 the red brick building on the left and the white building with the

Page 3859

1 balconies on the right; is that so?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The buildings in the middle have damage to their fronts; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Please now look at the second photograph in that exhibit. Do you

7 recognise on that photograph your signature and the date 26 September,

8 2001?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. Did you place cross-hatching on the restaurant to indicate that it

11 was not there at the time of this incident?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Please explain the significance of the cross-hatching.

14 A. The restaurant did not exist at the time of the incident.

15 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness now be shown the 360-degree

16 photograph, which, Mr. President, I have as P3279O. Perhaps the witness's

17 screen could be switched to Computer Evidence. Excuse me, Mr. President.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]


20 Q. Having regard to your earlier evidence, is that the restaurant on

21 the screen now which --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- was not -- all right. And that's the restaurant that was not

24 there at the time of the incident; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3860

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I notice that there is some distortion

2 of the image on the computer screen, which does not appear on the screen

3 attached to the computer playing it. For the moment, I don't think it's

4 of any significance, but I simply draw it to the Chamber's attention.

5 Could the image please be moved slowly to the right? Please pause

6 there.

7 Q. Ms. Omerovic, I'd like you to accept from me that this photograph

8 was taken from the spot you indicated to the investigator Sanela was at

9 when she was shot. Do you understand?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. As you watch this image on your screen, if you see either the

12 school for the blind or the direction in which it was, could you please

13 say so.

14 A. No.

15 MR. IERACE: Please keep moving the image to the right.

16 Please pause there.

17 Q. Do you see in the photograph, at the moment, the apartment

18 building in which you lived?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Is it the building slightly to the right of centre, that is, a

21 light-brown colour with white horizontal stripes?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Which is the part of the building that you were running towards

24 with Sanela on the 26th of June, 1994? Could you describe it to us in

25 words?

Page 3861

1 A. This is the back entrance. In fact, it's not a real entrance, but

2 we had to go through that entrance, through that cellar.

3 Q. Is the cellar door visible on the photograph at the moment?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Is it obscured by some bushes or grass?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How far along the side of that building is it? In other words, is

8 it towards the middle or towards the left or the right?

9 A. I'm sorry. I can't understand.

10 Q. All right, I'll come back to that.

11 Do you see there's a line of windows running down the building?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If you can imagine that line being extended down to ground level,

14 would it be to the left of that line or to the right of that line or

15 immediately under those windows?

16 A. To the left.

17 Q. On the road surface, one can see two lines. Do you see those?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where was the trench in relation to those two lines?

20 A. Between the lines.

21 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the image to the right.

22 All right. Please pause there.

23 Q. I think we've now gone right around. At any stage did you see the

24 school for the blind?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3862

1 Q. Can you see it in the image which is on the screen now, or is it

2 somewhere else?

3 A. No, I can't see it now.

4 Q. Is it faster to go to the left or to the right?

5 A. To the left.

6 Q. Please tell us when you see it.

7 A. Now I can see it.

8 Q. All right. Can you describe its position in relation to the

9 portion of your apartment block that we can see to the left of the

10 picture. Could you describe in words where it is?

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if my friend has no objection to

12 leading, perhaps I could give that description.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, Ms. Pilipovic.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have

15 absolutely no objection, never.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


18 Q. Do you see that firstly part of your -- withdraw that.

19 MR. IERACE: Could you please pan the picture further to the

20 left.

21 Stop. And zoom in. Further. Further. Further. Further.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid that we are now in a picture of the

23 earlier incident.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now we have an objection.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... familiar to me.

Page 3863

1 That's not an urban area we see now.

2 I notice that we had several time difficulties whenever we zoom in

3 too much.

4 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE: All right.

6 Q. Now, we have a close-up of the edge, that is the right-sided edge,

7 of the building in which you lived which is coloured light-brown with

8 white horizontal stripes. Immediately to the right of the apartment as

9 one looks at the image, there is firstly some foliage, and then, beyond

10 that, what appear to be some buildings. And above the buildings, one can

11 see a corner of a building painted white with what appears to be a window

12 and a dark-coloured gabled roof.

13 Do you see that building?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. What is that building?

16 A. This is the institute for blind children.

17 Q. All right.

18 Now, you told us this morning before the break that following you

19 hearing a noise when you were in your apartment, you went to the window

20 and saw Dejan Stevanovic lying in the street. From where he was lying,

21 was it possible to see the school for the blind?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was it possible to see any other parts of territory which were on

24 the Bosnian Serbian side of the confrontation line?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3864

1 Q. Which were those parts? Could you describe them?

2 A. More to the right, there were houses, buildings, on the other

3 side.

4 Q. To the right of where?

5 A. From my building.

6 MR. IERACE: All right. Mr. President, at this stage, might the

7 witness be shown Exhibit P3098. That is a map. If the left side of that

8 map could be placed on the ELMO.

9 Q. Ms. Omerovic, firstly, on that map, do you see your signature and

10 a date?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. Is the date the 8th of November, 1995?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. All right. Going back to the left side of the map, did you place

15 some marks in red ink on that map, on that date?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. Could you point to a marking in red ink which shows a cross and

18 the letter "A" alongside it, with the pointer.

19 A. [Indicates].

20 Q. What did you mean to indicate by that mark?

21 A. The spot where Sanela was wounded.

22 Q. Did you also place a mark with -- that is, a cross with a number

23 "1" alongside it on the map?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you point to that mark.

Page 3865

1 A. [Indicates].

2 Q. What did you mean to indicate by it?

3 A. The spot from which the shot came from.

4 Q. Would you now please take a blue marker pen that the usher will

5 give you and place a cross on the spot where you saw Dejan Stevanovic

6 lying after he was shot, at the time he was shot.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. All right. Now, could you firstly indicate with the pointer the

9 areas on the Bosnian Serb Army of the confrontation line that were visible

10 from that spot.

11 A. [Indicates].

12 Q. I think you've just, with the pointer, indicated an arc; is that

13 correct? I'll rephrase the question. You've placed a blue cross on the

14 map to indicate where Dejan Stevanovic was observed by you to be after you

15 heard the noise; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Given your familiarity with the area, if you were to stand on the

18 spot where you saw him lying on the ground, what areas on the Bosnian Serb

19 Army side of the confrontation line could you actually see from that

20 spot? Do you understand the question?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. All right. More particularly, are you able to see those areas on

23 the map? And please take your time.

24 A. [Indicates].

25 Q. All right. Will you take the blue marker pen and draw a line

Page 3866

1 around that area that you've just indicated.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. If you could just stop there for a moment. I think earlier you

4 said that it wasn't possible to see the school for the blind from the spot

5 where Dejan Stevanovic was shot; is that correct?

6 A. It is.

7 Q. Have you just drawn the line through the school for the blind?

8 A. I am sorry, I'm not particularly good with maps.

9 Q. All right. Earlier, I asked you to indicate the part of the

10 Bosnian Serb Army side of the confrontation line that you could see from

11 where Dejan Stevanovic was shot. Do you remember that? Do you remember I

12 asked you that question?

13 A. I do, yes.

14 Q. And do you remember that you pointed to an area just to the right

15 of the school for the blind?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And do you remember that, before I showed you the map, you said

18 that the area was, I think, further to the right of your apartment block?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. Could you take the pen and draw a circle around that

21 area that you pointed to earlier, that is the part on the Bosnian Serb

22 Army side that you could see from where Dejan Stevanovic was shot.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Omerovic, if you have difficulties doing it on

24 the map, please tell us, since you told us before that you had some -- you

25 are not very good at maps.

Page 3867

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true. I don't find my way

2 around them easily.

3 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you a question in between? Ms. Omerovic,

4 you told us that you could not see -- that from the place where Dejan

5 Stevanovic was -- where you saw him lying, you could not see from that

6 spot the school for the blind. When you gave this answer, did you intend

7 to say that from the place where you were when you saw him lying down -

8 and as far as I understood, that was in the cellar behind the window -

9 that you could not see from that place the school for the blind? Or that

10 from the place where you saw Dejan Stevanovic lying - so if you would be

11 at that spot - that you could not see the school for the blind from

12 there?

13 So was it that you could not see it from the cellar or was it that

14 you would not be able to see it from the spot where Dejan Stevanovic was

15 lying?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the spot where he was lying.

17 JUDGE ORIE: From there, you could not see the school of the

18 blind, if you would be at that same spot?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.


21 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


23 Q. Just to clarify something coming out of that question by the

24 President, where were you -- I'll withdraw that. You told us earlier that

25 you spent a year in the cellar starting from April 1992. Is that correct?

Page 3868

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you also said that this incident happened, the incident when

3 Dejan Stevanovic was shot, happened in the spring of 1994. Is that so?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where were you when you heard the noise and went to the window?

6 Were you in the cellar or were you somewhere else?

7 A. In my flat.

8 Q. And what floor was that on?

9 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for misquoting. Please.


11 Q. What floor was it on? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

12 A. In my flat on the third floor.

13 Q. All right. And as you look out of your window on the third floor,

14 was it possible from that window to see the school for the blind?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. If you imagine standing on the spot where you saw

17 Dejan Stevanovic lying on the road, from there, could you have seen the

18 school for the blind, do you think?

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right. Earlier --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is all right, Your Honour. The

23 witness has already answered that from the place, from that place, I could

24 not see it. And my learned friend repeated the question, but the witness

25 confirmed her answer so it is all right. And that was my objection, that

Page 3869












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3870

1 it was asked and answered.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. I would have sustained the

3 objection, but the question has been answered. And it doesn't make any

4 change at this moment.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


7 Q. Ms. Omerovic, just to clarify your evidence, do I understand you

8 to be saying that if you stood on the spot where Dejan Stevanovic was

9 shot, you could see an area on the Bosnian Serb army side of the

10 confrontation which was to the right of the school for the blind. Is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 MR. IERACE: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Ierace.

15 Ms. Pilipovic, we've still got 5 minutes to go. Would there be an

16 area you could touch upon which could be finished in 5 minutes

17 approximately, since we have to leave the courtroom at quarter past

18 [sic]. I'd like to use the 5 minutes, but perhaps in your selection of

19 items to...

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Omerovic, Ms. Pilipovic, who is counsel for the

22 Defence, will now put questions to you.

23 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

Page 3871

1 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Omerovic, good afternoon.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. Can you tell us if and when you talked with the Tribunal -- with

4 Tribunal investigators?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Can you tell us when that was?

7 A. In 1995 or 6. I'm not quite sure. Then in 2001.

8 Q. And if I tell you that you talked with the -- with OTP

9 investigators on the 8th of November, 1995, would be able to tell me if

10 that is correct?

11 A. I do not know exactly. I don't really remember the date.

12 Q. But if I show you the statement which you signed, would then you

13 recognise it and confirm that it was your statement?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist Ms. Pilipovic in

17 just showing the statement, and especially the signatures on it.

18 Ms. Omerovic, you find your signature on these pages just shown to

19 you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please return it to

22 Ms. Pilipovic.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. Just

24 one question more.


Page 3872

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Did you also see the 4th of October, 2000, on the statement?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Did you also speak with investigators, too?

5 A. I don't know exactly.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Ms. Pilipovic?

7 Yes.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

9 Q. This statement carries your signature. Below that, it says the

10 4th of October, 2000. Can you explain what does this date mean, the 4th

11 of October, 2000? And in the upper part where all the particulars are, it

12 says the 8th of November, 1995.

13 So the date of the interview was the 8th of November, 1995, and

14 what you wrote here was the 4th of October, 2000.

15 A. I don't understand your question.

16 Q. I'm asking you to explain it to me, whether this signature which

17 you have here, did you sign it on the 4th of October, 2000, or did you

18 sign it on the 8th of November, 1995?

19 A. I remember that I signed it on -- in November 1995. But whether

20 on the 4th of October, there was yet another interview, whether I signed

21 something, I just don't know. I simply cannot remember.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Witness, can you tell us at the time when you gave your statement

24 on the 8th of November, 1995, bearing in mind that the interview was

25 conducted with you perhaps a year, year and a half after the incident

Page 3873

1 about which you told us today, can you tell us, when was your memory

2 fresher in relation to the time of the incident? Was it fresher in 1995

3 or today? When did you remember? When did you recall better the events

4 relating to the incident?

5 A. In 1995.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.


9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe it is now time to

10 adjourn.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic. Thank you for your assistance.

12 Mr. Usher, would you please bring the statement back to

13 Ms. Pilipovic.

14 I have one final question to Mr. Ierace at this very moment.

15 Mr. Ierace, we have been shown several times the 360-degrees photographs.

16 You guided us how to get the software, how to play them, and you said you

17 can get them from the internet. Since the Tribunal does not allow Judges

18 to download anything from the internet and install it on their computers,

19 the Bench would very much like to have a copy of the software which makes

20 it possible to view these photos.

21 And I would like to hear from the Defence whether they have been

22 able to, not being under the same restrictions as the Bench is, to

23 download the software from the internet. If not, would then please the

24 Prosecution provide them with the software necessary to view the

25 photographs.

Page 3874

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

3 Defence has managed to obtain these photographs through its own resources

4 so that we don't have a problem. But possibly if technically perhaps we

5 can offer a solution, we shall be very delighted to do so.

6 JUDGE ORIE: There would be no problem for me as well, Mr.

7 Piletta-Zanin, to do it at home and bring it to the Tribunal. But since

8 I'm not allowed to install whatever software on my computer here unless it

9 comes from either the OTP or from the Tribunal itself, I'm afraid I have

10 to. But thank you very much for the offered assistance.

11 I'm sure you'll be able to solve this problem for us, Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Do you wish for a ten-second

13 explanation in relation to the double O exhibit number at this stage or

14 not?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although from what I heard later on, I can

16 imagine what it would be, but if it's no problem for someone else, then we

17 could --

18 MR. IERACE: As Your Honour pleases.

19 THE COURT: Yes, please.

20 Ms. Omerovic, your examination has not been finished yet, but

21 since it's Friday today, we will continue after the weekend since this

22 courtroom has to be used this afternoon for another case. So we will

23 continue next Monday in this same courtroom at quarter past 2.00 in the

24 afternoon. So then the cross-examination will continue.

25 If there is nothing else before the weekend to be brought to my

Page 3875

1 attention, we will adjourn until next Monday at 1415 hours.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

3 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday the 18th day

4 of February, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.