Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3876

1 Monday, 18 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in this courtroom at the

6 beginning of this week.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 We were informed last week that Mr. Piletta-Zanin will not be

12 present today, so you're just on your own, Ms. Pilipovic.

13 Is there anything at the beginning of the week? Sometimes parties

14 have thought of things during the weekend, but you all seem to be rather

15 quiet, so nothing specific. Then I think it's up to you, Ms. Pilipovic,

16 to continue your cross-examination of the witness, Ms. Omerovic.

17 Please, Mr. Usher, could you bring in the witness.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

21 JUDGE ORIE: As I indicated to you last Friday, the

22 cross-examination by Ms. Pilipovic will now continue.

23 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 3877

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

2 afternoon to everyone.

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued].

4 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Omerovic.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. On Friday, when we started our questions, I believe that we

7 stopped at the moment when you told us that at the time when you gave the

8 statement to the investigators of the Tribunal in 1995, it was on the 8th

9 of November, you said that your memory was fresher at that time. Do you

10 remember that? Do you remember that answer that you gave?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. During the examination-in-chief by my learned colleague, you told

13 us about the incident that happened on the 26th of June, 1994. Could you

14 tell us what time that was?

15 A. Yes. Between 1900 and 1930.

16 Q. Could you tell us, considering that this was the month of June,

17 what was the visibility and what kind of day that was.

18 A. It was a sunny

19 day.

20 Q. You told us that you had set off to see your sister. Could you

21 tell us what part of town does your sister live in?

22 A. I was returning from my sister's.

23 Q. Did you tell us that you were going to get a book?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you tell us in which part of town does your sister live?

Page 3878

1 A. In the same locality.

2 Q. Could you tell us what is the name of the locality?

3 A. Vojnicko Polje.

4 Q. Before the incident that happened, what is the time that elapsed,

5 that you went to your sister's until the incident?

6 A. About two hours.

7 Q. On your way to your sister's, did you take the same route?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Until the -- is there another route that you could take to your

10 sister's apartment?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If you had taken this other route, would you have avoided the

13 danger of being exposed to some armed attack, considering you said you

14 were on or near the line of confrontation?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: The question was is there another route that you

18 could have taken to your sister's apartment. The witness's evidence is

19 that the incident took place on the way from her sister's apartment.

20 Thank you, Mr. President. The relevance of my objection becomes clear in

21 the next question, at page 3, line 11.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, as far as I understand,

23 Mr. Ierace thinks that taking different routes the way to the sister is

24 not relevant since the incident happened on the way back from her

25 sister's. Would you please either indicate what the relevance is or

Page 3879

1 rephrase your question.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will rephrase my

3 question.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].

6 Q. On the way to your sister's that day, considering that you were on

7 your way back when the incident occurred, could you tell us what is the

8 route that you took?

9 A. The same route.

10 Q. On your way back from your sister's, you said that you were going

11 to get a book. Could you tell us, how far was the front line away from

12 the place where you and your friend found yourselves the moment that you

13 said that you saw that her top -- her shirt was bloody, covered in blood?

14 A. I don't know exactly.

15 Q. You told us -- that was page 69, line 14. The question asked by

16 my learned colleague, you said that the soldiers ran up to us and took her

17 to the hospital.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you tell us where the soldiers were?

20 A. On the other side of the street.

21 Q. When you say "on the other side of the street," could you say that

22 in a more accurate way? Could you tell us exactly where in front of a

23 building, inside a building, next to a building, on the pavement? Where

24 exactly were the soldiers that ran up to you?

25 A. The soldiers were in the building.

Page 3880

1 Q. When you say that they were in the building, how many were there?

2 A. Four or five.

3 Q. When you say they were in the building, could you tell us more

4 accurately, what do you mean by "in the building"? Were they at the door,

5 the window, in front of the building? By considering you said "in the

6 building," could you tell us what exactly you mean by "in the building"?

7 A. They were at the window.

8 Q. Does the building have floors?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Which floor?

11 A. On the second and the third floor.

12 Q. Could you tell us: These soldiers, what were they wearing? How

13 did you know they were soldiers?

14 A. They had uniforms on.

15 Q. Did you see if they were armed?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When they approached you, or rather, your friend, how many

18 approached her?

19 A. Three of them.

20 Q. Did you then see that they had weapons?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you see them before they approached you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you see these soldiers when you were going to your sister's?

25 A. No.

Page 3881

1 Q. So you say that the very first moment that you saw these soldiers

2 that were on the second and third floor of that building, in front of

3 which the incident occurred, you said that before that you didn't see

4 them.

5 A. I'm sorry, Your Honour. I've made a mistake. I saw them before

6 that, when they warned us.

7 Q. When they warned you, when was that?

8 A. That was prior to the incident.

9 Q. Could you tell us what did that warning consist of?

10 A. They said -- they told us to hurry up because a few moments before

11 sniper fire had been opened and some people had been passing by.

12 Q. Did you and your friend hear the fire, the firing?

13 A. Yes, we did. We heard one shot.

14 Q. How long before did that happen before your friend told you that

15 she was injured?

16 A. The shot happened when she was injured.

17 Q. As far as I remember, you said that the soldiers had warned you

18 that fire had been opened.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you hear any other fire before that shot, about the fire that

21 the soldiers had warned you about?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You told us that you hid in a trench, you took cover in a trench,

24 you and your friend.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3882

1 Q. Could you tell us if in that trench there were soldiers?

2 A. No.

3 Q. How often, in relation to the incident that occurred -- and I'm

4 going to be precise -- in 1994, how frequently did you pass that portion

5 of that route? When I say "frequently," what I mean is, for instance,

6 weekly. How often did you go there?

7 A. Three or four times.

8 Q. In 1994, since you went frequently, three or four times a week,

9 did you see soldiers in that portion of the route?

10 A. No.

11 Q. In the course of 1994, did you see or hear shooting towards

12 Nedzarici and from Nedzarici towards the positions where you saw the

13 soldiers?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Could you tell us whether in the vicinity of the building where

16 you lived and the building where your sister lived and the building where

17 the incident happened, were there military facilities near these

18 buildings?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Could you tell us: These soldiers who were on the second and the

21 third floor, do you know who these soldiers were?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know where they spent the night?

24 A. No.

25 Q. During the conflict, which lasted in this area in 1992, 1993, and

Page 3883

1 1994, do you have any knowledge whether the citizens, specifically in the

2 building where you lived or in other buildings, whether citizens were

3 organised in a sense that they protected their buildings and guarded the

4 entrances to the buildings?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you ever, in the part of the building where you lived or in

7 your sister's building, did you see soldiers in 1992, 1993, and 1994?

8 A. Not in 1992 and 1993, but yes, in 1994.

9 Q. You said, asked by my learned colleague, that in the period after

10 the conflict started, you did not leave your building. You said that you

11 were with your family in the cellar of that building. Could you tell us

12 what was the period?

13 A. From 1992 to 1993.

14 Q. Did you go to school?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you know whether other children from the building that you

17 lived in, and other buildings, did they go to school?

18 A. No.

19 Q. If I tell you that you told us that your memory when you gave the

20 statement in 1995, that your memory was fresher, how could you explain

21 that then in your statement you didn't tell us that in the period between

22 1992 and 1993 you spent in the cellar of your building?

23 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

24 A. We never talked about it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

Page 3884

1 MR. IERACE: The question is unfair. It presumes that she should

2 have included such an aspect in her statement, and there's no reason to

3 presume that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I can read the statement of the --

8 the witness statement. It's very short, and I read it very carefully.

9 And the witness never told us in her statement in 1992 and 1993 that she

10 was in the trench, and I have the statement both in B/C/S and in English.

11 And my question is because she said that her memory was fresher when she

12 gave the statement, so I'm wondering why she never spoke about it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That's not the issue. The issue is whether she did

14 not say anything about it where she could have expected to have done so or

15 whether it was just not asked of her. And, of course, we cannot expect

16 from someone just to come up with all things he or she thinks to be

17 relevant, questions, but let me just confirm with my colleagues.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained. The reasons given by

20 Mr. Ierace are valid. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness, when the incident happened that you told us about, can

23 you tell us where your friend went to hospital? Do you know?

24 A. Yes. To Dobrinja.

25 Q. Can you tell us if these soldiers who were near you, or you

Page 3885












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3886

1 yourself, did you report this incident to some of the authorities, to the

2 authorities?

3 A. I don't know that.

4 Q. Can you tell us if in the vicinity of the buildings where you

5 were, that is, where you lived, and on your way to your sister's, did you

6 see whether in that area there was an observation post of the UN?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know whether any of the soldiers who had approached you to

9 help, whether they reported to the UN soldiers that an incident occurred?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. On Friday, you told us that in the spring of 1994 you heard, while

12 you were by a window in your apartment, that a young boy, Dejan

13 Stevanovic, was killed.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us, in relation to the incident which occurred while

16 you were with your sister, could you tell us when did this other incident

17 occur? Presumably it was -- when did that other incident happen?

18 A. I don't understand the question.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE: -- The question again misstates the evidence. The

22 question presumes that the shooting incident happened when this witness

23 was with her sister. She was coming from her sister's place and was with

24 a friend. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I do understand that this is the

Page 3887

1 second incident, not the incident where you returned from your sister's,

2 so let me just check what else has been said on the presence of your

3 sister at that moment.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour. I did not

5 ask that question.

6 JUDGE ORIE: What I see at this moment is that -- yes, it doesn't

7 say.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I can repeat the question, but my

9 question certainly was not this.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I do not see in the transcript

11 anything -- that there was anything about being with her sister, or I'm --

12 one moment, please.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: You're saying that the question was about being with

15 her sister at that moment. 14. Let me just see. 14. Yes, I think it's

16 a matter of misunderstanding, Mr. Ierace. The question was: "Can you

17 tell us, in relation to the incident that occurred while you were with

18 your sister, can you tell us when did this other incident occur?" So that

19 other incident was the incident, not the one when she was with or going to

20 or returning from her sister. That's how I understood it.

21 MR. IERACE: And if that's the case, Mr. President, then that does

22 reflect the evidence. The words used by my friend were to the effect that

23 this witness was with her sister when the friend was shot.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. She was not, but I think the questioning was

25 now about the other incident, so -- yes, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

Page 3888

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. So I'm going to repeat my question. So you were present when the

3 ten-year-old boy, Dejan Stevanovic, was killed. As far as I can remember,

4 you said that you were by the window, that you were looking at it.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. My question is: In relation to the incident on the 26th of June,

7 when you were with your friend -- that was in the summer -- can you tell

8 us in terms of a time frame when was this other incident when Dejan

9 Stevanovic was killed?

10 A. I don't know exactly.

11 Q. At the moment when you were looking at that incident, what did you

12 see from your window, if you were looking from your window?

13 A. I went to the window when I heard a noise.

14 Q. When you say "went to the window," can you please tell us what you

15 mean.

16 A. I looked through the window. I saw a boy who was lying on the

17 ground. There were many people surrounding him, including my brother.

18 After that, his father ran out and he saw that he was dead.

19 Q. Did you speak to the parents of the boy who was killed?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. Did they tell you whether they knew where Dejan had been shot

22 from?

23 A. They could only presume, but they did not know exactly.

24 Q. When you were at the window, did you hear a shot or was there

25 shooting during that day? Do you remember?

Page 3889

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Today you told us that you were at the window.

3 A. Yes. I went to the window after I heard the noise.

4 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that you were on the balcony?

5 Does your building have a balcony?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that you could have been on the

8 balcony?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us: On that day, what was the weather like?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. Do you know whether the parents of Dejan Stevanovic reported this

13 incident to the police?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. What was the time of day?

16 A. Morning.

17 Q. When you said that people gathered there, did you see if there

18 were any UN monitors there?

19 A. No.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, the

21 Defence would like to show photograph 3279OO, P3279OO.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic. These are two photographs.

23 Could you please indicate whether you would like to have number 08 or 17A

24 on the ELMO.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. 08.

Page 3890


2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, you have before you a photograph, the same photograph

4 that was shown you on Friday. Can you tell us if the building that you

5 can see in the forefront, or rather, the part of the building that you can

6 see on this photograph, can you explain to us if this part of the building

7 existed already before the conflict or is it a building under

8 construction, as my learned friend suggested? Can you be more precise and

9 tell us if this is part of a demolished building or a building under

10 construction?

11 A. This is a part of a demolished -- of a destroyed building.

12 Q. Can you tell us: This part of the building that you tell us was

13 destroyed, when was that? Do you know when that happened?

14 A. When the war started, from 1992 onwards.

15 Q. Can you tell us: How tall was this building, how many floors it

16 had?

17 A. It was an eighth-storey building, that is, the ground floor and

18 seven floors.

19 Q. Can you tell us if it was a building where civilians lived or was

20 it an office building?

21 A. It was a civilian building.

22 Q. Can you tell us on which side of the line of conflict was this

23 building? When I say "the side of the line of the conflict," I mean, to

24 be precise, whether on the side of the line of the conflict controlled by

25 the BH army or on the side of the line of conflict under the control of

Page 3891

1 the army of Republika Srpska.

2 A. On the side controlled by the BH army.

3 Q. Will you agree with me when I put it to you that in that part of

4 the building, in that part of the locality, there was fighting, since you

5 said that the building had eight floors and that they were all destroyed?

6 A. I don't understand your question.

7 Q. I shall be more precise. Can you tell us whether this building

8 was destroyed because of the fighting?

9 A. The building was shelled.

10 Q. Can you tell us when was that? I shall be precise. In 1992, in

11 1993, or 1994?

12 A. From 1992 onwards, it was constantly under shell fire.

13 Q. Do you have any knowledge if in that part of the building, the

14 ground floor of the building, the troops of the BH army were quartered?

15 A. No.

16 Q. On this photograph behind this building, we can see other

17 buildings, including a building, and that is the orange building with

18 white stripes, that you tell us that that is where the incident happened.

19 Can you show us on this photograph the building where you lived?

20 A. Yes, I can. [indicates]

21 Q. To be precise, for the record, can you tell us: Can one see this

22 building behind the tree or is it -- or can we only see the roof of the

23 building, the white roof?

24 A. One can see the building.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I'd

Page 3892

1 like to ask the witness to take the black marker and circle the building

2 so that everybody can be clear about this point.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please, would you put a circle around the

4 building where you were living at that time.

5 A. [Marks].

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. If I understand you right, but I stand to be corrected if I

8 didn't, your windows did not face this side that we can see here; it faced

9 the other side. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. Thank you. In this part of the buildings that we can see, can one

12 also see your sister's building, whom you visited that day?

13 A. Yes, you can.

14 Q. Can you then circle that building too so that we can see the

15 route that you took.

16 A. Yes. [Marks]

17 Q. For the record, would you please put number 1 in this first

18 circle, and then number 1 the building where the witness lived and the

19 number 2, and put a small 2 in that small circle. Yes, for the record,

20 number 1 is the building where the witness lived, number 2 is the building

21 where the witness's sister lived.

22 Witness, can you tell us: This building that you lived in on the

23 ground floor of this building facing the side that was damaged, do you

24 know if on the ground floor of that building there were present the

25 soldiers of the BH army?

Page 3893

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you have any knowledge if -- I shall be precise -- 1992 --

3 1993, excuse me, 1993 and 1994, whether, in relation to this part of the

4 building where you lived, were there any armed operations? Was there any

5 fighting in that part of the city between the two armies?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. Can you tell us if any member of your family was a member of the

8 BH army?

9 A. Yes. My father, in 1993.

10 Q. Do you have any knowledge gained from your father, who was a

11 member of the BH army, if he took part in the fighting?

12 A. No.

13 Q. If you -- since you told us that in 1992 and 1993 you didn't

14 attend school, did you attend school in 1994?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Can you tell us: Where is it that you attended school? In what

17 part of the city was your school?

18 A. In the neighbourhood.

19 Q. On this photograph, where we see those buildings, can you point at

20 the school building, if one can see it, or is it that you cannot see it?

21 A. You cannot see it.

22 Q. Did you -- to go to school, did you use the same route that you

23 used to go to your sister's?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And when you went to school, or on your way back, did you, during

Page 3894

1 those intervals in that part of the area that you lived in, could you hear

2 any gunfire?

3 A. Yes, I could.

4 Q. Could you determine from which part of the city this gunfire was

5 coming from?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us which part of the city is it?

8 A. Nedzarici.

9 Q. Could you see that or is it that you only could hear it?

10 A. I heard it.

11 Q. Do you have any knowledge -- did you, after 1994, or in 1995, did

12 you ever go to Nedzarici?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Can you tell us if in that part of the city there were any damage

15 to structures, like your building over there?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has

18 finished its cross-examination. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Pilipovic.

20 Mr. Ierace, are you in any need of re-examination of the witness?

21 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I won't be long, I don't think.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:


25 Q. You have to your right the photograph about which you were asked

Page 3895












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3896

1 questions by my learned colleague. She asked you about a building in the

2 photograph that you said was partly demolished, and you said that it had

3 eight storeys. Could you please take the pointer and point to the remains

4 of that building in the photograph? Do you remember that you were asked

5 those questions?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. All right. I think you said that it had been shelled from 1992

8 onwards. It was constantly under shell fire. Is that correct?

9 A. It is.

10 Q. All right. Could you please point to that building.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Do you indicate the building complex in which you lived, which you

13 circled, and has a number 1 on it?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Now, just a few moments ago you were asked by my learned colleague

16 if you had been to Nedzarici, and you said that you had. When was that?

17 When did you first go there after the conflict or during the conflict?

18 A. In 1998, 1999, thereabouts.

19 Q. Did you go to the School for the Blind?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you walk through the buildings?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Did you see in those buildings that you walked through any signs

24 consistent with the buildings having been used for small arms fire?

25 A. No.

Page 3897

1 Q. Did you see any holes in the walls?

2 A. I didn't.

3 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I am wondering, Ms. Pilipovic, before I

5 give the opportunity to my colleagues to ask any additional questions,

6 when you asked questions about a building of which the witness later said

7 that it was constantly being shelled, you were talking about the building

8 in the forefront. Was that -- in your questioning, did you aim at the

9 building which was circled and given number 1 or were you questioning the

10 witness about the just ground floor structure in front of the photograph?

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my first question

12 concerning the photograph and the building on the photograph, which you

13 can see, my question had to do with this part of the building, because I

14 wanted the witness to explain to us the front one, the white part, whether

15 this was a building under construction or whether there used to be a

16 building beforehand, and the witness said that this was a building which

17 had the ground floor and seven floors, that is, an eight-storey building

18 and that that building had been destroyed.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- one moment, please.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just give me one second, please. I'd

22 just like to be completely sure about approximate that there's no

23 misunderstanding as far as the buildings is concerned.

24 Mr. Usher, could you please put back on the ELMO again photo

25 3279OO, and the first photograph, 08.

Page 3898

1 Ms. Omerovic, questions have been put to you in relation to

2 buildings. You told, upon a question of Ms. Pilipovic, about a building

3 of which -- which used to have seven or eight storeys. Is that the

4 building just in front of the photograph, that is to say, the building

5 with the -- I would say the two or three dark holes down in the building,

6 or were you --

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would have no objection to the usher

8 using the pointer and pointing to that building.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please assist me. Yes, if

10 you're doing it yourself. There's a one-storey structure in the left of

11 the photograph. Could you please point at it so that we can see it with

12 the pointer, please. Could you please use the pointer. Yes, that one.

13 Was that a seven or eight-storey high building before?

14 A. No.

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE ORIE: So when you told us about a seven- or

17 eight-storey-high building, were you then answering the question in

18 relation to the building you made a circle around with number 1 on the

19 right-hand side? Please point at it so that we are sure that ...

20 A. [Indicates].

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the building with the seven or eight

22 storeys you told us about; is that true?

23 A. That's right.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And in the forefront of the photograph, the --

25 could you please point at it again, the white one --

Page 3899

1 A. [Indicates].

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Below there. Yes. Has that ever been a

3 high-rise building or has it always been low?

4 A. It was the same building. This is a shopping centre.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it never was six, seven, or eight storeys

6 high; it always was as low as you see it on the photograph?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I was asking this because I was

9 thinking of whatever misunderstanding by the witness as far as your

10 questions were concerned. Let me just look at the transcript at this

11 moment. It says, on page 14, line 13 -- you asked how many floors the

12 building had, and as far as I was aware of, you were asking about this

13 low-storey -- this low building, and only later turned to the apartment

14 blocks on the right-hand side of the photograph. So since it seems that

15 the witness might have misunderstood your question in this respect, if

16 you'd like to ask any additional questions, although part of what you

17 would like to know has been answered already, while I tried to find out

18 whether there was any misunderstanding. But I think it's fair that if

19 your question has been misunderstood, that if there are any additional

20 questions, you may put them to the witness.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Further cross-examination by Ms. Pilipovic.

23 Q. Witness, can you tell us about this building which you identified

24 a moment ago and said that it was a shopping centre? Can you tell us

25 if -- on which line of the conflict was this building in 1992, 1993, and

Page 3900

1 1994? Do you have any knowledge about that?

2 A. It was in between.

3 Q. When you say "in between," does it mean that it was on the front

4 line itself?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And was that the situation throughout the conflict or did this

7 line shift?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Did this building look like this before the conflict broke out or

10 it changed its appearance in 1992, 1993, and 1994?

11 A. It changed its appearance.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

14 Mr. Ierace, if at this point there would be any need to re-examine

15 the witness, then of course you will have it.

16 Thank you. Have any of my colleagues have any additional

17 questions?

18 Ms. Omerovic, you have been answering a lot of questions, both on

19 Friday and today. As you'll understand, it's very important for this

20 Court to establish the truth, to get the information from those who have

21 been present at that time, at those places, and while answering the

22 questions of the Prosecution and the Defence and the questions

23 additionally put to you by the Bench, I think you have given -- you have

24 assisted this Court in performing its task, and its task is taking

25 decisions on the matters that are before this Court. I'd like to thank

Page 3901

1 you very much for coming a very, very long way from Sarajevo to The Hague

2 and assisting the Court by answering all these questions from all the

3 parties and the Bench. I also wish you a safe trip home again, and thank

4 you very much for coming.

5 Mr. Usher, would you please lead Ms. Omerovic out of the courtroom

6 after it has been translated what I said to her.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I think we have some documents on

11 which we have to decide whether they are admitted into evidence. I think

12 the first one is P320 -- 80O, which is the video, if I'm correct. Is that

13 correct? Yes.


15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm trying to assist you, since you're not here

16 all the time. The second one are two photographs, and I think they are

17 P3279OO.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, bearing the ERN numbers 0106-1210/08 and

19 0106-1219/17A.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Then we have, I think,

21 two more photographs, under P3270.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Bearing the ERN numbers 02114226 and

23 02114227.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I think then next we have the 360-degree photograph

25 on CD-ROM, which would be --

Page 3902


2 JUDGE ORIE: And the last one is a map that was premarked by the

3 witness by giving an earlier statement, and that would be?


5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So apart from the -- I would say the standing

6 objections against the 360-degree photographs, no further objection,

7 they're admitted into evidence.

8 Mr. Ierace, am I right in my understanding that your next witness

9 to be called will be Fuad Dziho?

10 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, would you please lead the witness

12 into the courtroom.

13 [The witness entered court].

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before that witness is called, was

15 there not also a Defence Exhibit in relation to the last witness?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Wasn't this -- I think there was some marking made on

17 the -- or am I wrong?

18 MR. IERACE: I stand corrected, Mr. President. I think the

19 marking was on --

20 JUDGE ORIE: It was on a Prosecution Exhibit. It was marked with

21 black, yes.

22 MR. IERACE: Which was I think P3279OO.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked specifically to put either the 08 or

24 the 17A photograph to the witness.

25 I apologise for -- please, would you ... I apologise that you had

Page 3903

1 to wait for some final things we had to deal with. Do you understand

2 me -- do you hear me in a language you understand?


4 JUDGE ORIE: You're Mr. Dziho?


6 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, Mr. Dziho, the

7 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration

8 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 The text of that declaration will be given to you by the usher, and I

10 invite you to make that solemn declaration.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter].

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.

16 What I should have said when we were still dealing with other

17 matters is welcome into this courtroom, Mr. Dziho. You have been called

18 as a witness by the Prosecution --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by the counsel for the

21 Prosecution and then later on you will be examined by counsel for the

22 Defence.

23 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

Page 3904

1 Q. Sir, would you please give your full name for the purposes of the

2 record.

3 A. My name is Fuad Dziho.

4 Q. In 1992, whereabouts were you living?

5 A. I was living in Sarajevo.

6 MR. IERACE: I should indicate, Mr. President, that this evidence

7 concerns scheduled sniping incident number 21.



10 Q. What was your occupation at the -- immediately before the

11 commencement of the armed conflict in Sarajevo in 1992?

12 A. A social worker.

13 Q. During the armed conflict, were you required to perform some other

14 work duties?

15 A. Yes. I was mobilised as a reserve policeman.

16 Q. In March of 1994, did you carry out any duties as a reserve

17 policeman?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Was there an incident which required you to attend a car park

20 where there was -- where there had been some reports of a disturbance by

21 children in 1994, in the month of March?

22 A. Why, yes. We received a complaint in the police station that some

23 children were tampering with a car, damaging a car, and that is why we

24 went out and to the parking lot on Ante Babica Street, between numbers 1

25 and 3.

Page 3905












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3906

1 Q. After you resolved the complaint, did you hear some shooting?

2 A. That's right. We heard two individual shots.

3 Q. Were you able to determine the direction from which you heard the

4 shots come?

5 A. Yes. From the direction of the Home for the Blind, which is in

6 Nedzarici and was controlled by Serb forces.

7 Q. What did you do after you heard the sound of shots?

8 A. We thought that we were being targeted, and we tried to take some

9 cover, that is, leave the parking lot, this exposed open area.

10 Q. When you say "we were targeted," who were you with?

11 A. I was with a fellow policeman, because we were a patrol team.

12 Q. What time of day was it when you heard the shots?

13 A. Between 2.00 and 3.00 in the afternoon.

14 Q. What was the weather like at that time?

15 A. It was a nice spring day, not really cold.

16 Q. All right. You said that you tried to take some cover. After

17 that, were you told something by some nearby children?

18 A. Yes. There were some children who were at a nearby balcony in

19 that building which was facing Nedzarici. They started shouting that

20 someone had been injured.

21 Q. Did you then make some investigations in relation to the report

22 that someone had been injured?

23 A. Well, my colleague and I, we started to run to the place that was

24 indicated by the children, and there we found a man who was lying on the

25 grass.

Page 3907

1 Q. Did you notice any wound on the man?

2 A. He was in a state of shock, and at one moment he didn't even know

3 that he had been injured. He was occasionally -- he was drifting in and

4 out of consciousness, and I remember they were trying to lift his clothes

5 off to see whether he was really injured, and then we saw a wound, a

6 bullet wound, on the left-hand side of the abdomen.

7 Q. Were you able to obtain from the man any information, including

8 his name?

9 A. Yes. Name, surname, and the address.

10 Q. Do you remember those details at the moment?

11 A. Ivan Franjic, the Trg Solidarnosti number 11. I remember it

12 because after the incident my colleague and I, we went to his family to

13 let them know that he had been injured, that he was in one of the

14 hospitals.

15 Q. What did you do in relation to him after you observed the

16 injuries?

17 A. We stopped the first car that was passing by. We put him in the

18 car and the car then went in the direction of the city.

19 Q. After that, did you receive some further information in relation

20 to other injured person?

21 A. Yes. When the car left with this first injured person, the

22 children and the people started shouting that another person had been

23 injured, and we then ran a little further down, perhaps some 70 or 80

24 metres from that spot, and we found also an elderly person who was on

25 their knees, holding onto the left-hand side of the abdomen, where we

Page 3908

1 could see the blood. And again, we stopped one of the cars, one of the

2 vehicles. We put him in the vehicle and he was taken to one of the

3 hospitals. I don't know which one.

4 Q. Could you tell us something further as to the nature of that

5 injury to the left-hand side of the abdomen? In particular, were you able

6 to see any internal parts of his body?

7 A. As for the first man, yes. When we lifted his shirt, his top that

8 he was wearing, I remember that there was no blood. There was a wound

9 around which we could see some part of some internal organs. I don't know

10 which one.

11 Q. All right. Were you able to take from the second man details as

12 to his name and address?

13 A. No. I believe he lived in Ante Babica 5. Because it happened so

14 quickly and because he was obviously in great danger and he was living in

15 one of the nearby houses, and we couldn't take any personal details from

16 him. We found that from the neighbours.

17 Q. Do you remember those details now?

18 A. I think Augustin Vucic, and I think the address was Ante Babica

19 Street number 5.

20 Q. What date was it that these events happened?

21 A. Early April. 10th of April, maybe, 15th of April.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, -- I withdraw that.

23 Q. Did you make a statement to the criminal department on the 25th of

24 February, 1995 in relation to these matters?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3909

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown a copy

2 of that statement signed by him in order to refresh his memory as to the

3 date. I have copies available for my learned colleague and Your Honours,

4 together with translations into the English language. I propose to have

5 the witness identify the statement and then refresh his memory as to the

6 date.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be done by just reading it, Mr. Ierace, so

8 that we don't -- yes, please. Let me just have a look at it and we'll

9 return it then later on to Madam Registrar.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]


12 Q. Do you have before you a document that has down at the bottom some

13 numbers, being 00268150?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recognise your signature to the left and at the bottom of

16 the page?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. Is that indeed a photocopy of the report to which you just

19 referred?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In that report, did you say: On 13 March -- do you see the

22 words -- I withdraw that. Do you see at the beginning of the second

23 paragraph, there's a reference to the date on which these events occurred?

24 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

25 Q. What was the date on which those events occurred, having regard to

Page 3910

1 your report?

2 A. On the 13th of March, 1994.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. IERACE: Might that be returned, and I ask that the witness be

5 shown a map, which is Exhibit P3115. Perhaps that could be placed on the

6 ELMO. The second -- sorry. The left-hand half of the map in particular.

7 Q. Sir, did you make a statement to an investigator from the Office

8 of the Prosecutor with the Tribunal on the 14th of November, 1995?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. At the time that you did that, did you place some marks on a map

11 to indicate certain things?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I think we have not yet received a

13 copy of the map that's on the ELMO now.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


16 Q. Is this that map?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. IERACE: I note, Mr. President, there was not an answer to the

19 previous question, so I'll ask that again.

20 Q. Did you place some marks on the map to indicate certain things on

21 the 14th of November, 1995?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Do you recognise your signature on the map which is to your right?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Did you place the marks on the map which appear in blue ink?

Page 3911

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On that map, in particular, there appears to the left a building

3 which has a circle around it and an arrow going from it. What did you

4 mean to indicate by the circle around the building and the arrow going

5 from it?

6 A. This is the place where we found the wounded person and the place

7 where the shots had come from.

8 Q. All right. Would you please take the pointer on the desk in front

9 of you. It has a white tip on it. Would you please place the end of the

10 pointer on the place where you say the shots had come from.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. I think earlier you described that building as the School for the

13 Blind; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Now, what did you mean to indicate by the little

16 circle which appears on the road Ante Babic?

17 A. This is where we found the wounded person, the location where he

18 was lying.

19 Q. I think you said you found two wounded persons. Which particular

20 one was located at that point, or were both located at that point?

21 A. The first person was found where the little circle is, and the

22 second person we found a little further down, about 70 to 80 metres, by

23 that next intersection, the street crossing the Square of International

24 Friendship, Trg Solidarnosti.

25 Q. And I think you said the first person's name was Ivan Franjic;

Page 3912

1 is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Now, there appears to be a cross on the map as well.

4 What does that indicate?

5 A. This is probably a place where we found the second person, the

6 second wounded.

7 Q.

8 MR. IERACE: Now, might that be returned, Mr. President. I

9 withdraw that.

10 Q. On the map as well, near the circle, there appears to be a line on

11 Ante Babica. What does that represent?

12 A. I don't understand the question.

13 Q. All right. I'll rephrase it. Was there anything else that you

14 remember indicating on the map apart from the School for the Blind and the

15 position of the two men?

16 A. I marked from which side, in relation to the wounded, the

17 barricade was.

18 Q. Whereabouts does the barricade appear on the map? And perhaps you

19 could point to it.

20 A. Here. This is where the barricades were.

21 MR. IERACE: I ask that the witness be shown photograph P3279Oa.

22 Q. Do you recognise what appears in that photograph?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What is that?

25 A. You can see the intersection where the barricade was, where the

Page 3913

1 injured was, the first injured, the first wounded person. You cannot see

2 where we found the second wounded.

3 Q. All right. Do you see on that photograph the School for the

4 Blind?

5 A. No, because in the meantime, as I can see, several buildings, or

6 rather, some houses have been built.

7 Q. Please take your time and look at the photograph carefully. First

8 of all, did the School for the Blind have one building or more than one

9 building?

10 A. It consisted of several buildings, but they were of different

11 height. How shall I put it?

12 Q. Do you see on the photograph in front of you any of the buildings

13 for the School for the Blind?

14 A. Yes. Here, behind this red house. Here.

15 Q. Would you please take a blue marker pen and circle the building or

16 buildings which you recognised as belonging to the School for the Blind.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. All right. Now, the circle has passed over a building which

19 appears to be white, have some windows on the left-hand side, and a dark

20 roof, and that's to the top left of the circle. Do you know whether or

21 not that building is one of the School for the Blind buildings?

22 A. It's hard to find one's bearings because many buildings have been

23 built in the meantime.

24 Q. All right. Now, you said that --

25 A. I think it could be this one. It could be that building. That

Page 3914

1 could be the Institute for the Blind.

2 Q. For the benefit of the record, could you circle that building as

3 well with a separate circle, the one you just pointed to.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Could you place a 1 alongside the first circle and a 2 alongside

6 the second circle.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. All right. Now, I draw your attention firstly to the road which

9 runs from the intersection in the foreground to the area of the School for

10 the Blind. Do you know the name of that street?

11 A. This used to be called Branko Bujica Street, but now I believe

12 it's called Srebrene Bosne Street, something like that.

13 Q. At the place where that street meets up with Ante Babica Street,

14 were there any barricades at the time that these two men were shot?

15 A. Yes, on this intersection here.

16 Q. Perhaps you could draw a line across that intersection in the

17 approximate place of the barricades which existed at that time.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Thank you. Now, you referred, I think, to another barricade; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you see on that photograph where the other barricade was?

23 A. It was higher than here, further up there.

24 Q. Do you mean further to the left of the line you've already drawn?

25 A. Even -- yes, that's right. Yes.

Page 3915












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3916

1 Q. Further to the left as one looks at the photograph; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were there any other barricades on Ante Babica Street at the time

5 of this incident, that is, in this part of Ante Babica Street which

6 appears

7 in the photograph?

8 A. I can't recall now.

9 Q. In the middle of the photograph there appears a house about two

10 storeys high with a red-tiled roof. Could you just point to that house

11 but not mark it.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Please don't mark it. All right. Now, at the time of this

14 incident, was that house there?

15 A. As far as I know, it was not. There was nothing there.

16 Q. At the time that you attended these two men, do you remember

17 whether you met anyone else who may have been with them at the time that

18 they were shot?

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right. Behind the --

21 A. Other people came running later, as we were putting them into the

22 car.

23 Q. Okay. I referred you earlier to the house in the middle of the

24 photograph. Behind it there is a high-rise building of about ten storeys,

25 with white balconies. Could you please point to that building.

Page 3917

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. Yes. Please don't mark it. Was that building -- first of all,

3 was that building there at the time these men were shot, and if so, in

4 what condition was it?

5 A. Yes, it was there, but it had been completely demolished. There

6 was no windows, there were no doors. There was nothing, just walls.

7 MR. IERACE: Would that be a convenient time, Mr. President?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

9 Mr. Dziho, we'll have a short break. We'll adjourn until a

10 quarter past 4.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.4 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.


15 Q. Just before the break I was asking you questions about the

16 position of barricades. At the time that these two men were shot, were

17 there any barricades on the eastern side of this part of Ante Babica

18 Street?

19 A. You'll have to help me. Where is east on this map?

20 Q. All right.

21 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the witness might be shown the map, which is

22 Exhibit P3115. And again, could the left-hand side of the map be placed

23 on the ELMO.

24 Q. Please assume that north is at the top of the map, south is at the

25 bottom, east is on the right-hand side, and west is on the left. After

Page 3918

1 you have looked at the map, could you please then look again at the

2 photograph, P3279Oa. Applying the same compass points, the view is

3 looking west, so that the further side of Ante Babica Street is the

4 western side and the side which is in the immediate foreground of the

5 photograph is the eastern side. To be clear that we understand each

6 other, with the pointer, could you please point to the eastern side of

7 Ante Babica Street.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. Thank you. Were there any barricades at the time the two men were

10 shot on the eastern side of Ante Babica Street, that you recall?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What sort of clothing were the two injured men wearing?

13 A. Well, the regular, the common civilian clothes. One had a jacket,

14 I think. I think they are called omot, the second injured. And the first

15 one had a cotton jacket. I believe it was brown.

16 Q. At the time that you heard the two shots, which way were you

17 facing in relation to the direction from which the sound of the shots

18 appeared to come?

19 A. We were facing Nedzarici, that is, the direction from which the

20 shots came.

21 Q. Approximately how far were you and your companion from the area of

22 the footpath on Ante Babica Street, where you understand the two men were

23 shot?

24 A. Thirty to fifty metres.

25 Q. During the armed conflict, were there from time to time ceasefires

Page 3919

1 between the opposing forces?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was there any ceasefire in force on this day?

4 A. Yes, as far as I know. I mean, because the population behaved in

5 a more relaxed manner. They could move more freely and they could move

6 more.

7 Q. Do you mean by that that during ceasefires one noticed a distinct

8 change in the behaviour of people in public places in Sarajevo?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. Could you tell us a little more about that, the noticeable

11 differences when there was a ceasefire and when there was not a ceasefire,

12 in relation to the civilians?

13 A. Well, people were more relaxed. They moved about with more

14 freedom, if I may put it that way. But the experience of previous

15 ceasefires, and also following this incident, when the ceasefire was on,

16 our task was often especially in areas exposed to the sniper fire, we

17 would be given a task to warn those people, because the ceasefire often

18 meant nothing. It happened that they were injured during ceasefires or

19 there would be some unexpected shell hitting the civilians.

20 Q. When you attended the two injured men, did you notice any military

21 equipment or soldiers in the vicinity?

22 A. No, I do not.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown the

24 following exhibits: P2477, which includes the English translation .1

25 P2476, which includes the English translation .1, and P2664, which

Page 3920

1 includes the English translation .1.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you assist us. Thank you.

3 MR. IERACE: I think the first of those documents is P2477.

4 Q. Sir, would you please look at the document you've just been

5 handed. Does it have on the top right-hand corner the numbers and letter

6 P2477, handwritten at the top right-hand corner?

7 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the usher could point to the relevant part of

8 the page.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please do it -- if you point at whatever

10 thing, Mr. Usher, would you please do it on the ELMO so that we can follow

11 what you're ... Thank you.

12 MR. IERACE: Perhaps that could be turned to the B/C/S version,

13 which is P2477.

14 Q. Sir, do you -- I withdraw that. Do you have before you what

15 appears to be a medical discharge for Ivan Franjic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. I think you said that that was the name given to you

18 by one of the injured men that you attended on the 13th of March, 1994; is

19 that correct?

20 A. It is.

21 Q. If you look halfway down that -- I withdraw that.

22 Would you please now turn to the next document, which I think is

23 P2476. Does that appear to be a report, that is, a police report, dated

24 the same date as this incident, which shortly recounts what happened?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3921

1 Q. Do you know the person who appears to have signed that report,

2 Enes Avdic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Would you please now turn to the third document, which appears to

5 be a death certificate in relation to Augustin Vucic. Do you have that

6 before you?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. You told us that the name given to you by one of the two injured

9 men was Augustin Vucic; is that correct?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. Did you in fact hear later that he had died from his injuries?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. And does this document indicate that he died on the 1st of June,

14 1994, that is, two and a half months later?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that completes examination-in-chief of

17 this witness. I draw to the Trial Chamber's attention that in relation to

18 the English translation of the discharge summary for Ivan Franjic, there

19 appears to be a mistranslation of the date of admission and date of

20 release. It's apparent on the face of the document that it's a

21 mistranslation. The English translation records the year as being 1993,

22 but when one looks at the B/C/S original, one can see that in fact it was

23 1994. Thank you, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. I think there are perhaps some

25 more -- for example, the date and place of birth also seems to give

Page 3922

1 193/?/I. As far as I can read I can see 1930, but I'm afraid there are

2 some more. Because also part of what has been on the date of admission is

3 not very precise. I also see 03 and then 94 instead of ... Okay. Yes.

4 Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

5 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dziho, you will now be examined by Ms. Pilipovic,

8 who is counsel for the Defence.

9 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dziho.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. Can you tell us if you gave any statements to OTP investigators

13 between 1995 and this day?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Can you confirm that this was on the 14th of November, 1995?

16 A. I know that it was late 1995. I don't know the exact date.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us if on the 20th of September, 2001, you

18 spoke to the OTP investigators?

19 A. I don't remember the date, but I did talk with them.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dziho, may I ask you one thing: You have, I

21 think, the text moving in front of you in English. Would you please wait

22 until the text stops moving, because otherwise, since you are speaking the

23 same language, the interpreters cannot follow you. Yes? Please. And it

24 will happen that you forget about it. I'll remind you. Yes, please.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3923

1 Q. Mr. Dziho, you told us that in 1992 you were living in Sarajevo.

2 Can you tell us in what part of the city did you live?

3 A. Novi Grad.

4 Q. Can you be more precise and tell us which part of Novi Grad?

5 A. It is the C-Faza, that is, Alipasino Polje.

6 Q. Thank you. You told us that when the conflict broke out in 1992,

7 you were mobilised. Can you tell us who made the decision on the

8 mobilisation and where did you report?

9 A. I have to make a correction. I wasn't mobilised in 1992. I was

10 mobilised on the 20th of September, 1991.

11 Q. You tell us that you were mobilised on the 21st of September,

12 1991. Can you tell us which authority mobilised you?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we might have a problem. The witness

14 said the 20th of September, and you're, I don't know for what reason,

15 referring to the 21st of September. It might be that there's a

16 translation problem, but ...

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, can you tell us, in September 1991, when was it that you

19 were mobilised?

20 A. The 20th of September. I was mobilised on the 20th of September,

21 on the basis of a decision, and in a normal state, one knows which is the

22 authority under the mobilisation of the police force, whether it was the

23 Presidency or somebody, I wouldn't know. What I can say is that the force

24 was, to put it that way, made of people coming from all ethnic groups.

25 That is completely normal, if I may call it that. It was just regular,

Page 3924

1 normal mobilisation.

2 Q. Can you tell us whether you know why were you mobilised on the

3 20th of September, 1991?

4 A. I think that it was because of the events in neighbouring Croatia.

5 Q. At the time when you were mobilised, can you tell us if you were

6 issued with anything, that is, with any gear, with any weapons or clothes

7 or what?

8 A. Yes. In the early days, but I mean within a few months or so, we

9 were issued with Kalashnikovs, that is, with long tubes, and we also were

10 given a set of ammunition. And what I can tell about myself is that quite

11 a number of us, but I wouldn't know the exact number, but most of us were,

12 until about -- until about March perhaps we were assigned to guard the

13 building of the television.

14 Q. Until March 1992, you tell us, that you were guarding the

15 television building in Sarajevo.

16 A. Yes, until about that time.

17 Q. Can you tell us: As of March 1992, what was your assignment

18 then? Where were you assigned?

19 A. I was in the police station, except that after the barricades

20 which then happened, I was again, to put it that way, I continued to guard

21 the television. But my shift -- my shift would finish its -- that is, my

22 group would finish its shift and we were then -- because the situation was

23 not normal, we were also asked to come back to the police station. So

24 once the shift would be over, we would go to the police station, and there

25 be on the alert.

Page 3925












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3926

1 Q. When you tell us that you were guarding the television building,

2 can you tell us where is the television building in Sarajevo?

3 A. It is --

4 JUDGE ORIE: I told you that I would remind you.

5 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. Excuse me.

6 JUDGE ORIE: It's no problem, but the interpreters really cannot

7 follow you if it goes that quick.

8 THE WITNESS: Sorry. The television building is in Alipasino

9 Polje II, but across the street from so-called Faza A, Phase A.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You said that after the barricades were put up in March, you were

12 given a different assignment. Did I understand you correctly?

13 A. Only temporarily, only until the situation calmed down, and then I

14 was again sent to guard the television building, to my usual post.

15 Q. Until when did you guard the radio/television, as usual? Until

16 when was it in 1992?

17 A. Until about August, or maybe September.

18 Q. To be more precise, are you talking about 1992?

19 A. Yes, I am.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel also break after the answer.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].

23 Q. Will you tell us what kind of gear did you have after 1992 and

24 what kind of weapons did you have?

25 A. I had long barrels and ammunition, and uniforms.

Page 3927

1 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind both of you. That's what happens now.

2 I know it. It's just we have to enable the interpreters to do their job.

3 Please proceed.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Can you tell us: Until August 1992, where was your workplace?

6 A. At the radio/television.

7 Q. Can you tell us whether, as a reserve policeman, and although your

8 workplace was at the radio/television, did you also have a police station

9 where you reported and submitted your report whilst you worked?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us, where was that police station?

12 A. At Alipasino Polje II, but it was about a hundred metres above the

13 television building.

14 Q. Can you answer: At this police station where you reported for

15 duty and where you were given your assignments, how many of you were in

16 the police reserve force?

17 A. This is not easy to answer. At the television building there

18 could have been about 30, and all in all, I wouldn't know.

19 Q. Did you -- and when I say "you," I mean the reserve police force,

20 and specifically, I mean those 30 of you who were guarding the television

21 building -- did you all have your gear and weapons?

22 A. More or less.

23 Q. And did you, with this gear and this armament, until August 1992,

24 did you go to your police station; that is, would you be carrying these

25 arms and gear on your way to and from the police station?

Page 3928

1 A. Now and then, yes.

2 Q. When you tell us that in 1992 -- that until August 1992 you

3 guarded the television building in Sarajevo. Can you tell us: As of

4 August 1992, what was your assignment then in your capacity as a reserve

5 policeman, if you were a reserve policeman?

6 A. Yes, I was a reserve policeman. Meanwhile, sometime in June or

7 July, thereabouts -- I'm not sure -- some detachment -- some detached

8 police stations were set up. That is, every phase had its police station,

9 a kind of a subsidiary, and in the one that I was, there were about 30 men

10 all together, and that was the -- it was called the Police Station Phase

11 A.

12 Q. If I understand you correctly, you were at the police station

13 where there were 30 of you at the Phase A.

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And is that Phase A in Alipasino Polje?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Can you tell us: In Alipasino Polje locality, were there any

18 other phases which had their police stations?

19 A. Yes, there were.

20 Q. Specifically in Alipasino Polje, can you tell us how many phases

21 were there?

22 A. A, B, and C.

23 Q. Can you tell us, where was the seat of Phase A, that you belonged

24 to?

25 A. On Medjunara [phoen] Square, number whether 9 or 10, I'm not sure.

Page 3929

1 Q. Can you tell us: Phases C and B in Alipasino Polje, where did they

2 have their police stations?

3 A. Phase C had its police station on Nezavic [phoen] Square,

4 Independence Square, I think, and phase B, I don't know, because I never

5 went there.

6 Q. Do you have any knowledge how many people were there in Phases B

7 and C? You said there were 30 men in Phase A.

8 A. Not exactly 30; 30-ish. But considering we had the same duties

9 and assignments and tasks, I think each one had roughly the same number.

10 Q. Can you tell us whether you, in A phase and the reserve force in B

11 and C, did you also have weapons and equipment?

12 A. Yes, I can say that about A phase, but I believe the others had

13 the same.

14 Q. Can you tell us what kind of weapons you had?

15 A. Long-barrel, a rifle.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you will allow me,

17 I would like to show the witness a part of the map, a portion of the map,

18 that the witness had already indicated when asked by my learned

19 colleagues. My intention is to ask the witness to mark on the map those

20 locations where the police stations were in Alipasino Polje, as far as he

21 can remember. I think we can use the map, the same used by my learned

22 colleagues, perhaps with a different colour. But I do have enough number

23 of copies of that portion of the map, and perhaps there would be other

24 questions as to asking the witness to indicate other locations on the map,

25 if you'll allow me.

Page 3930

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic. As far as I can see,

2 the map has been premarked also in blue, so that if we use the black,

3 thick marker, that should not be ... Oh, you have new copies. Okay.

4 That's fine. Yes. Please.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, what would you prefer? We can use the

7 one already used, so we limit the number of ... But if you say, "I'd

8 rather use the new one," that's fine, as far as I'm concerned.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we can use that map.

10 I think we'll have a more complete picture and more clear.

11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The old map.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You even understand that already in B/C/S.

14 That's 3115 we're using now.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Dziho, could you indicate for us on this map, in the portion

17 which is called Alipasino Polje, could you mark, as far as you can

18 remember, where the police stations were of those phases that you can

19 remember. You can say "A" -- you can put "A," "B," and "C."

20 A. This is A, C. As for A and for C, I can indicate accurately, but

21 I cannot indicate B. I don't know.

22 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you give us this answer: In the course

23 of 1992, from August, until September 1994, were you always a member of

24 the reserve force of the C phase of the police station, and what were your

25 duties?

Page 3931

1 A. From -- until about mid-1994, I was in the reserve police force,

2 after which I went to the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic to work

3 on the problems of accommodation, because I'm a social worker, and to work

4 as a social worker.

5 Q. In the course of 1992, from August until the end of August 1994,

6 as a member of the police force, were you also engaged in the army?

7 A. I don't know what you mean.

8 Q. When I say "the army," in this period, did you have any task which

9 would take you to the front lines?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you tell us in which year, or rather, in which period

12 between August 1992 and August 1994 and in which front lines did you go

13 to?

14 A. Our task mostly, when we went to the front lines, or rather, to

15 the area of responsibility, as far as the police force members were

16 concerned, was that we would give the troops a rest, and if the front line

17 in that particular location regarding the area of responsibility which was

18 to do with the Novi Grad Police Station, we would go if there was a

19 critical situation, and then we would be sent as reinforcement to the

20 army.

21 Q. Could you tell us in which part of the city were you at the front

22 line?

23 A. Well, I don't quite know which part of town that was, but we were

24 on several occasions near Doglude [phoen]. I believe that was the name of

25 the location. We went to Stup, Stupsko Brdo. Mostly in those locations,

Page 3932

1 as far as my police station is concerned.

2 Q. Could you mark for us on this map where Stupsko Brdo is on this

3 map and which part of the front line that was.

4 A. Here is Stupsko Brdo, but where the line is, I cannot tell you.

5 Considering we were guarding -- we were also guarding important

6 facilities. We had a permanent group that was guarding the pensioners --

7 retirement home, and the building of Oslobodjenje, who were from the

8 Sarajevo Novi Grad Police Station.

9 Q. Could you please mark the retirement home and Oslobodjenje

10 building, please. Now, could you please put mark 1 and 2 on the map.

11 A. [Marks].

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, Your Honour,

13 number 1 the witness marked the retirement home, and number 2, the

14 Oslobodjenje building.

15 Q. Witness, could you also mark Stupsko Brdo for us on the map,

16 please.

17 A. Well, it says here where Stupsko Brdo is. I couldn't tell you

18 really.

19 Q. Can you tell us if there were front lines in this area.

20 A. In which part do you mean?

21 Q. I mean Stupsko Brdo and this area where it says Stupsko Brdo.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Just to avoid whatever misunderstanding, I see

23 Stupsko Brdo on two locations, although quite near to each other on the

24 map.

25 MR. IERACE: I think there's actually three locations.

Page 3933

1 JUDGE ORIE: Three. I missed one, then. Could you please guide

2 me, Mr. Ierace, to the third.

3 MR. IERACE: I imagine, Mr. President, you have in mind the two

4 parallel roads marked Stupsko Brdo.

5 JUDGE ORIE: No. I had, as a matter of fact, I see there are now

6 two parallel roads.

7 MR. IERACE: Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I see -- I see that immediately under the home for

9 the elderly people, there are two times parallel Stupsko Brdo, and then,

10 at a rectangular going to the south-west, another what looks as if it is a

11 street also is indicated by Stupsko Brdo. We see a lot of Stupsko Brdos

12 on the map, so, Ms. Pilipovic, could you please -- if you are talking

13 about the area of Stupsko Brdo, if you mean that it would cover the whole

14 area in which we find these names, would you then repeat your question to

15 the witness and let's make sure that there are no misunderstandings. I

16 think your question was about the front lines in that area.

17 Mr. Dziho, have you seen that there are three times Stupsko Brdo

18 on the map?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic was asking you whether you knew where

21 the front lines were situated in that area, and that area by now means the

22 whole area where we find these three indications of Stupsko Brdo.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, either I

24 can't see it or you can't see it. There is a little stream -- a river

25 called Dobrinja, and we were then -- we know it because of Stanica Kuce

Page 3934

1 locality. That's how we know about it.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, so we can be more precise, could you tell us in relation

4 to the buildings of the retirement home and the Oslobodjenje building,

5 could you perhaps tell us in relation to these buildings and the Stupsko

6 Brdo, could you tell us where the front lines were?

7 A. Well, it was probably something like this, in relation to this

8 area, up to this intersection here, but I don't know any further really.

9 Q. And in relation to the Institute for the Blind of the locality, do

10 you know where the front line was?

11 A. No. No. But it was more further towards this direction, because

12 the Serbian forces covered this part of the area. I don't know how much

13 you know. But also the then market, and it's a market now, they had it

14 under their control. And I believe there's also a barracks there. So it

15 was quite a large area of Stupsko Brdo which was under the control of the

16 Serb forces.

17 Q. Could you please circle it, according to your recollection.

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you. In relation to the Oslobodjenje building and the Ante

20 Babica Street, in this area, where was the front line?

21 A. Do you mean here, in between -- between the Institute for the

22 Blind and the Oslobodjenje building? There was like a field there, like a

23 meadow, and this was, if we can call it that, no-man's-land.

24 Q. Could you tell us, since you were guarding the Oslobodjenje

25 building and the retirement home, were there soldiers, and which unit was

Page 3935












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3936

1 there?

2 A. No, there were no soldiers. This was under our control.

3 Q. Can you tell us: In relation to the building, to the part of the

4 Alipasino Polje and Ante Babica Street, was there a front line there, and

5 could you mark it for us, please.

6 A. No, the front line was not there. As far as I can recall, the

7 front line was the Institute for Blind Children, and then further deeper

8 into the Nedzarici locality.

9 Q. In relation to the Institute for Blind Children and part of the

10 locality where it says "Street of Djure" Street, could you mark there

11 where the front line was?

12 A. As far as Djure Street is concerned, this is within the Vojnicko

13 Polje area, and since there was no need, I never went there, so I wouldn't

14 know where the line was. But in general, I know that practically there,

15 if we're talking about classical trenches, there were no trenches there,

16 no typical trenches, because people defended from those first front houses

17 that were probably destroyed. But I don't know, because I didn't see it.

18 Q. Why do you say "probably destroyed" and you didn't go there?

19 A. Well, it was the usual practice of the Serb army. Whatever they

20 did was to first level everything out with shells and grenades and

21 cannons, so nobody could live there in front. And if it was not

22 destroyed, then they would set fire to it with incendiary bullets.

23 Q. Did You go to see such incidents?

24 A. In Dobrinja V. Then you also have the same situation in Ante

25 Babica Street, where the entire facade of the house is pock-marked with

Page 3937

1 shell pieces and grenades of all calibres, and they fired at apartment

2 blocks where people lived.

3 Q. Since you were so well informed about that area, perhaps you have

4 information about the building of the Institute for Blind Children and the

5 buildings in that area that you say were under the Bosnian Serb army

6 control. What kind of situation were these buildings in? Did you have

7 opportunities to see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell us specifically about the buildings surrounding the

10 Institute for the Blind and these buildings around? What was their state?

11 A. Most of the buildings, particularly nearer to Mojmilo, it was all

12 destroyed. It was shelled, but it was shelled by the Serb army.

13 Q. When you say that it was shelled by the Serb army, can you tell us

14 when that was?

15 A. Perhaps from the beginning, practically. First there was much

16 sniping, and as time went on, from mid-1992 onwards, there was heavy

17 artillery fire on all parts of the city, particularly on the edge parts,

18 rim parts.

19 Q. Could you mark on the map these edge parts of the city that you

20 say that were shelled by the Serb army.

21 A. No, I can't find my bearings on this map. But what it says here,

22 Ante Babica Street, we called it the Tenth Transversal, and Ante Babica

23 was called this entire block of buildings which was near to this

24 parking -- next to this parking place. And this street here, this street

25 here, which went out onto the Brigada [phoen] Street, the main street, we

Page 3938

1 called that the Tenth Transversal. This area here, rather, this health

2 centre, medical centre, it was completely destroyed. The Serb army

3 shelled it. And here, in this part, all these buildings that were here,

4 these houses here along the Tenth Transversal, all this was completely

5 destroyed.

6 Q. As you are explaining this to us, do you have any knowledge

7 whether you know on the other side, on the other side of the transversal,

8 near the Mojmilo Brdo, what army controlled that side?

9 A. Do you mean Mojmilo Brdo?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. At the very beginning, in 1992, I think June or July, on the top

12 of the Mojmilo hill, there was a unit of -- a JNA unit, which I believe

13 had one or two tanks, or a couple of tanks, and they also had two armoured

14 vehicles, and they fired on the Mojmilo locality, where people lived. And

15 they also fired on the C phase, since they could see the C phase. When

16 they withdrew, I believe it was in July and August, I think. Then they

17 withdrew.

18 Q. Are we talking July, August 1992?

19 A. Yes, we're talking about 1992. After that, that was under the

20 control of the BH army.

21 Q. I'm going to return to the Institute for the Blind. Could you

22 tell us whether in 1994 or 1995 you were able to see the Institute for the

23 Blind and the buildings surrounding it, and could you describe for us what

24 state these buildings were in?

25 A. At that time there was no need for me to go there. Since I did

Page 3939

1 not go there -- because I work on completely different part of town, so

2 there was no need for me to go there, or any purpose.

3 Q. Are you telling us that you never went to this part of town?

4 A. After I moved to the republic MUP, no, I didn't go, as far as I

5 can recall.

6 Q. Could you tell us: When was the first time that you went to that

7 part of town and saw the Institute for the Blind, if you ever saw it?

8 A. Yes. After the ceasefire, after the reintegration, I then --

9 after the trams started working again, I then went and passed through.

10 Q. Could you describe for us what the building looked like?

11 A. It looked the same as it looked in 1993. I think approximately,

12 because the Institute for Blind Children -- there were several places from

13 which the sniper fired. I remember that. There were locations for

14 snipers. I remember that. The rest, I didn't really pay much attention

15 to it.

16 Q. To be absolutely precise, did you see that in 1993 or did you see

17 that after the Dayton was signed, the Institute for the Blind, the state

18 that you're describing it?

19 A. In 1993 and after the Dayton was signed. If you're asking me was

20 it destroyed, as far as I could see, no.

21 Q. Did you see the buildings surrounding the Institute for the for

22 the Blind? Were they destroyed?

23 A. No. As far as I could see from a safe distance, no, not

24 significantly, if I can say that.

25 Q. When you say "safe distance," what is that safe distance?

Page 3940

1 A. The further, the better.

2 Q. I asked you, Witness, what distance that was that you saw these

3 buildings from.

4 A. From the Oslobodjenje building and from the retired people's home

5 building, and partially from the Centre for Blind Children, you can see

6 it. You can also see it from the parking place, where we happened to be

7 at the time, my colleague and I, when we were at the place of the

8 incident.

9 Q. When you say that you went to help the army as a reinforcement,

10 could you tell us what kind of help was it that you gave?

11 A. This was help in terms of manpower, depending on the situation in

12 the field. If there was a danger to the line, that the front line would

13 fall.

14 Q. Could you tell us to which unit were you sent as reinforcement, as

15 help? What was the unit that was there to the area that you were sent to?

16 A. I don't know. It was BH army. Which unit, I really couldn't

17 tell.

18 Q. Could you tell us what were the members of that unit -- what were

19 they wearing?

20 A. All kinds of things.

21 Q. When you say that, what do you mean?

22 A. To start with, they were dressed, if they didn't have anything

23 similar to camouflage uniform, they were wearing civilian clothes. I

24 mean, they were wearing civilian clothes because there was no equipment,

25 there were no weapons, so that's how people went to the front line.

Page 3941

1 Q. When you say there was no equipment, there were no weapons, are

2 you saying there were no weapons whatsoever?

3 A. Yes, there were weapons, but these weapons were procured, if I can

4 say it, when members of Serb nationality left, then in their apartments,

5 all kinds of weapons were found in their apartments: Long-barreled guns,

6 grenades, machine-guns, rifles. I remember in 1992, in the locality, it

7 was at Mladzin [phoen], called Mladz [phoen], in the yard, where there was

8 -- in the vegetable garden. There was lettuce and there were onions.

9 They also found some mortar shells. They found some landmines,

10 machine-guns. All kinds of weaponry were found there.

11 Q. When you say you found this, were you part of a team which found

12 all this?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So you're telling us all this according to what you've heard?

15 A. According to what I saw.

16 Q. I asked you if you were there. Did you see the weapons?

17 A. I saw the weapons. I didn't go personally to search these

18 apartments, but as someone who was patrolling and was patrolling a

19 locality, I was in a position to see when people who did it, they were

20 then taking these weapons out, three or four rifles, snipers.

21 Q. Can you tell us what people were there?

22 A. BH army.

23 Q. If you were present when the BH army was taking the weapons from

24 these houses, can you tell us who lived in these houses?

25 A. The Serbs who left. I don't know when. Who departed, who left.

Page 3942

1 Q. Do you know why they left?

2 A. They probably chose their side, although I have to say that in my

3 unit and in other units, as far as I know, I had colleagues of Serb

4 ethnicity, of Croat ethnicity. We were a station -- I'm talking about my

5 station -- and later on as well, they were members of the police force as

6 well as of the army, the BH army. They were all ethnicities.

7 Q. Do you know where were these weapons with the BH army placed?

8 A. Well, I suppose it was distributed -- all these weapons were

9 distributed among the combatants who had no weapons.

10 Q. So now you tell us that the BH army used machine-guns and rifles

11 and grenades?

12 A. I guess so.

13 Q. Can you tell us, since in 1992 and 1993 and 1994, as a member of

14 the reserve police force in Phase A, and you say that you guarded the

15 building of Oslobodjenje and the retired people's home, was there any

16 fighting in those areas where you were? Were there any -- was there any

17 armed conflict between the parties of the conflict in those areas?

18 A. Not when I was there.

19 Q. When you say when you were there --

20 A. When I was on duty, when there were no operations at all except

21 that -- and I don't know exactly when. In 1992, when the Serb forces

22 destroyed the big Oslobodjenje building, following that, as far as I know,

23 the police came to guard the Oslobodjenje, and it was there throughout --

24 because Oslobodjenje came out throughout the war.

25 Q. But you tell us that there were no armed conflicts when you were

Page 3943

1 on duty. Did you hear from other colleagues of yours? Did they take part

2 in any armed conflict?

3 A. No. This side, insofar as the retired people's home is concerned,

4 or the Oslobodjenje building, since in front of them there was a meadow,

5 if I can call it that, a lawn, it was quite quiet there apart from some

6 sniper fire. I'm referring to the period when we took over the guarding

7 of those two buildings. I don't know what went on there before.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I didn't want to interrupt you when

9 you used the same time because I felt that it was a subject which had --

10 of quite some importance for you, but now we are five minutes over that

11 time. Could you please indicate how much time you would still need.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll try to be very

13 brief.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, you told us a moment ago that there was some sniper

17 action. Can you tell us if, in the police reserve force and in the BH

18 army, there were any snipers?

19 A. No, not in the police force, as far as I know; and as for the

20 army, I do not know.

21 Q. Witness, I have to note that you are refusing to tell the truth.

22 I now have a couple of questions regarding the photograph 3279Oa. It is

23 9755/3. That was the only photograph.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there seems to be one of the rare

Page 3944

1 occasions, perhaps the first occasion, that my learned colleague appears

2 to be complying with Rule 90. I'd be grateful if she could be a little

3 bit more specific as to which part of this witness's evidence is

4 inconsistent with the Defence case. I'm referring, of course, to page 62,

5 line 11 of the transcript.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please indicate, Ms. Pilipovic, where

7 you said that you had to note that the witness was refusing, in your view,

8 to tell the truth. What exactly --

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness is

10 refusing to tell the truth when I asked him if in the police of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina there were any snipers.

12 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I see the answer of the witness: No, not

13 in the police force, as far as I know; and as for the army, I do not

14 know. The mere fact that if you could establish that there were snipers

15 in the police forces, the answer of the witness does not for sure say that

16 there were not in the police forces as far as I know. But please proceed

17 and we'll see what your next question will be.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I can put

19 a question to the witness so that you can make your ruling about the

20 snipers in the police of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 Q. Does the witness have any knowledge whether in the BH police, that

22 is, the republican police, were those special sniper units called

23 [indiscernible] Police? Do you know anything about that?

24 A. No, I wouldn't call it that. That was not a special sniper

25 unit. That was a special unit of the Ministry of the Interior set up for

Page 3945












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3946

1 a session purpose in peacetime. In peacetime, everybody was together

2 until the majority of members of Serb origin walked out. So it was a

3 peacetime special unit for special purposes, an anti-terrorist unit, if I

4 may call it that. That's what they're called nowadays. So it wasn't a

5 special sniper unit, especially not a special sniper unit.

6 Q. So you are telling us that this unit did not operate as a special

7 sniper unit during the armed conflict in Sarajevo?

8 A. No, it did not as a special sniper unit. No, it did not.

9 Q. Thank you. Witness, you have before you the photograph which you

10 mark to show where the barricades were and where, to your recollection,

11 was the Home of the Blind people. Can you also mark on this photograph

12 the place where you were, if, of course, it is shown in this photograph.

13 If not, will you please draw a line to show where you and your colleague

14 were at the time when you saw the first man.

15 A. This would be the extension of this photograph. Now I know that

16 this is east here. And you see here, right next to the edge of the

17 picture, you can see this grass patch, this grassy belt. And it stretches

18 as far as the parking lot, which is over here. Now, there is about a

19 metre and a half to three metre altitude difference, depending on where

20 you go. That is, there is a slope here.

21 Q. Witness, can you then show the pedestrian crossing here, and can

22 you mark, if you were near this pedestrian crossing, or is it that we

23 cannot see the area where you were?

24 A. You mean this pedestrian crossing or this one here?

25 Q. This one here. This one here. I see.

Page 3947

1 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from the speed, I think I can hear that the

2 interpreters have to go on a higher speed, higher and higher, so there

3 will be a point where I have to remind you again to pause now and then.

4 Yes, Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my learned colleague during the

6 cross-examination has repeatedly invited the witness to refer to various

7 locations on the map and now on the photograph without then recording

8 orally the areas indicated by the witness, which will make it extremely

9 difficult to make any sense of this transcript when we return to it at a

10 later stage of the trial.


12 MR. IERACE: I'd be grateful if perhaps my friend could indicate

13 for the record, for instance, to give an example, which of the five

14 pedestrian crossings that appear in the photograph the witness is

15 referring to.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, I was approximately at the point

17 to ask the same. Let me just give you the first start. When the witness

18 talked about the grassy patch, he was indicating with the pointer the

19 lowest part -- lowest horizontal part of the picture, which, as we know

20 from his earlier evidence, would be the eastern part of the Ante Babica.

21 And perhaps you could indicate where the witness pointed at when he was

22 talking about the pedestrian crossings.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, did you just now, when you pointed at the east part of

25 the street, did you point at a zebra which is at the bottom of the

Page 3948

1 photograph? Is that the pedestrian crossings in the vicinity of which you

2 were?

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Ms. Pilipovic,

4 that we get some misunderstandings now. If this would assist you, please

5 repeat the question, and I'll, for the sake of the record, indicate

6 exactly where the witness points at. Because if you're now talking about

7 east, I'm afraid, as a matter of fact, that you're referring to the south.

8 Because what is left on the picture is not to the left on the map. What

9 is left on the picture is at this moment on the south of the map. So if

10 you -- please proceed, give me one or two seconds now and then to assist

11 you, and if I'm wrong, please indicate so. Please proceed.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, can you indicate the place on this photograph where you

14 and your colleague were at the time when you saw the first injured, the

15 injured number 1.

16 A. When we heard the shots, you cannot see it. We were in the

17 parking lot, so that we could not see. We had neither the visual or any

18 other contact with the injured person, because the parking lot is on a

19 high ground, that is, two or three metres above this pedestrian lane.

20 Q. Can you mark in this photograph the place where you saw the

21 injured number 1, if I may call him that.

22 A. About here, roughly, where you can see these trees or this bush.

23 Q. Can you place an "X" there, please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Fine, so that I don't have to describe it. The

25 witness was first indicating when he said the parking lot, he was

Page 3949

1 indicating at the very lower part of the picture, which -- and he made

2 clear that the parking lot, as such, was below it, and not on the picture.

3 Would you please mark the place where you saw the victim with an

4 "X," Mr. Dziho, and please do it with a black marker. The black marker

5 is there. Yes.

6 A. About here.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Can you put number 1 there.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Can you mark on this photograph, or can one see the place where

11 the person number 2 was?

12 A. No, you can't see it here. He was in this area over here.

13 Q. So you are telling us near the parking lot? Because I know that

14 there is a parking lot behind there.

15 A. The parking lot is here, roughly, and then you have this green

16 belt here. You see this roof. This is a structure, this is a building

17 which was built after the war. And the parking lot is about here. And

18 the injured person was over here, you cannot see it. It was more to the

19 right and eastward.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the witness is pointing at the right

21 bottom corner, especially where there is a pedestrian crossing, which goes

22 on the picture from left to right. Please proceed.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

24 witness can draw an arrow, and that can serve as a sign for what you

25 have just said for the transcript.

Page 3950

1 JUDGE ORIE: The witness now has marked with a small cross a

2 place just outside of the photograph, in one of the margins.

3 Is that where the parking lot is?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And a bit further on, more further

5 on, even more further on.

6 JUDGE ORIE: More down, more to the right; is that correct?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness, do you have any knowledge, since you told us that you

11 were in contact with the Franjic family, did you receive information about

12 which one of these witnesses was injured first, as the counsel says?

13 A. I don't understand your question.

14 Q. After the incident happened, did you learn which one of the

15 witnesses, number 1 or number 2, fell the first?

16 A. Ivan Franjic was the first one, and I think he was the first one,

17 and we went to his wife. I think it was his wife.

18 Q. Do you know: At the time when Ivan Franjic -- when Witness Ivan

19 Franjic fell, did you know where was Witness 2 in relation to him?

20 A. You mean the injured number 2.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I don't know

22 whether there's any translation problem or that you're using your own

23 language a bit confusing. Again, when the persons are -- the person

24 you're referring to are in the English translation referred to as

25 "witnesses," where I would expect you to use the word "victims," since I

Page 3951

1 especially -- a deceased person can hardly be expected to be a witness. I

2 don't know whether it's your language or the translation, but ... Yes,

3 please proceed.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have

7 before me the statement of the witness Franjic, and that is what got me

8 confused.

9 Q. Witness, can you tell us: Victim number 2, in relation to Victim

10 number 1, in what -- what was his position when Victim 1 fell? Do you

11 have any

12 knowledge about that?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And when in contact with the family and Victim 1 --

15 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE ORIE: We have to slow down, and it's very difficult also

18 for you, Mr. Dziho, because you have no moving text any more on your

19 screen, so you don't know when to pause. But we really have to slow

20 down. And perhaps if I may suggest to you, Ms. Pilipovic, that Victim 1

21 and Victim 2 is perhaps always not as clear as well, so perhaps if you

22 just use the names of those that have been described as victims. That

23 means Ivan Franjic or Augustin Vucic, that perhaps that would be helpful

24 for you to talk about the victim that had been wounded and the victim that

25 had, in the testimony of this witness, had been killed. Perhaps that

Page 3952

1 makes it more clear to whom you are referring. Please proceed.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

3 Q. Witness, can you tell us: From the place where you were -- in

4 relation to -- that is, and looking towards the students' hostel can you

5 tell us if from that place where one can see the Home of the Blind in

6 relation to the students' hostel

7 A. I really don't understand what you're asking me.

8 Q. You explained to us the spot you were standing at the time when

9 you saw that Victim Ivan Franjic and late Augustin Vucic were in positions

10 as you explained. Now, looking from the spot where you were in relation

11 to the students' hostel, can one from that place see the Home for the

12 Blind?

13 A. I don't know which point in time you have in mind exactly. You

14 mean whether we heard the shots or when we started running towards Ivan

15 Franjic?

16 Q. At the moment when the shots were heard.

17 A. We were standing in the parking lot and we could see that, we

18 could see the Home for the Blind.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

20 further questions.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

22 Mr. Ierace --

23 Yes, please.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the

25 Defence also objects to this part of the witness's statement. The Defence

Page 3953

1 went out to the site, and from the position about which the witness said

2 that he was standing there, one cannot see the Home for the Blind from

3 this position.

4 JUDGE ORIE: This is the point, Ms. Pilipovic, and as you know,

5 commenting is not at this moment what you are expected to do.

6 Mr. Ierace, has the Prosecution -- does the Prosecution want to

7 re-examine the witness?

8 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:


12 Q. While you have the photograph in front of you, I direct your

13 attention to the cross that you placed in the bottom right-hand corner of

14 the margin. Does that cross indicate where you found Mr. Vucic or does it

15 indicate where the car park was, and therefore, where you were when you

16 heard the shots?

17 A. This is where we found Mr. Augustin, a little bit further on, and

18 we were about here, that is, in the parking lot, and you cannot see it on

19 this photograph, to the east, so that we had the visual contact with the

20 Home for the Blind.

21 Q. All right. Would you please place a 2 alongside the cross where

22 you found the person you referred to as Augustin.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please now use the -- would you please now use the

24 blue marker again. Yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

Page 3954


2 Q. And I understand your evidence to be that, in fact, the victim was

3 further down the photograph and further to the right of the photograph

4 than the margin allows. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Would you please now go to the other cross, that is, the cross

7 which appears in the bottom left-hand corner of the photograph. I

8 understand your evidence to be that that is the approximate position in

9 which you found Mr. Franjic. Is that correct?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. Would you please place a 1 alongside that cross.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. In your evidence you referred to a building on that eastern side

14 of Ante Babica, which did not exist at the time of the shooting. You said

15 you could see part of its roof. Would you please circle the part of the

16 roof that you can see.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Yes. Is that the building to which you referred?

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. All right. Now, will you please indicate with an arrow the

21 direction in which the car park was in which you were standing when you

22 heard the two shots. And that arrow could come from the closest part of

23 what appears in the photograph to the car park, to that spot in the car

24 park.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Do you understand the question, Mr. Dziho?

Page 3955












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Page 3956

1 Mr. Ierace asked you to make an arrow --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] More or less, yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- to make an arrow from the place closest to where

4 you were on the parking lot, so an arrow from a place -- which appears on

5 the photograph. So find the place on the photograph which is nearest to

6 where you were at the parking spot -- parking lot and then make an arrow

7 in the direction of where you actually were. Is that clear?

8 THE WITNESS: [Marks]


10 Q. Thank you for that. Now, during cross-examination you were shown

11 the map and you referred to various places on the map, including along

12 Ante Babica, which you said received heavy fire from the Bosnian Serb army

13 side; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, but it's not a proper -- it's not one building; it is a

15 skyscraper, a 15-storey high, and you have a number of entrances. That

16 is, it is a large residential block, apartment block.

17 Q. Now, assuming that the photograph in front of you was taken from a

18 building, would the building from which the photograph was taken be

19 consistent with one of the buildings that you described as receiving heavy

20 fire from the Bosnian Serb army side?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You said that you went to the area of Institute for the Blind

23 after the ceasefire. That is, I took you to mean after the cessation of

24 hostilities in 1995 between the opposing parties in Sarajevo. Is that

25 correct?

Page 3957

1 A. It could have been even later, 1996 or maybe 1997, and I rode past

2 it in a car, because down this street there is a company -- there is a

3 florist. There is a company, horticultural company, people who grow

4 flowers and sell flowers, and with my family I went there to buy some

5 flowers. Possibly I did not pass there before that.

6 Q. In relation to that visit, you said there were several places from

7 which the sniper fired. I remembered that. There were locations for

8 snipers.

9 What did you actually see that caused you to say those words?

10 A. Well, in a manner of speaking, two buildings dominated Nedzarici:

11 The Institute for Blind Children, and the Faculty for Theology. It was

12 the tallest building in that area and it was common knowledge that it was

13 one of the snipers strongholds. So the Faculty of Theology and the

14 Institute for Blind Children.

15 Q. When you drove past, did you notice anything about the buildings

16 that made up the Institute for the Blind that indicated they were used by

17 snipers?

18 A. Well, they had, as I already said it, they had those rifle

19 openings through which they opened fire.

20 Q. Could you please explain in more detail what you mean by that.

21 A. These are openings in walls, not natural openings. I mean, they

22 are not windows or doors, but in a wall, you break through at one or two

23 levels. Openings were made, some 30, 40 centimetres wide perhaps, through

24 which the snipers fired.

25 Q. Did you notice any --

Page 3958

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace --

2 MR. IERACE: Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't want to interrupt you right at the moment

4 where I felt it might be a point of importance to you as well. On the

5 other hand, we are close to 6.00 already, so if you say it's just one

6 question, then I'll ask for some leniency from the interpreters' booth.

7 But if it's more, we should have a break now, if at least this is a moment

8 that -- yes?

9 MR. IERACE: It may be more than one, so I think it's better to

10 have a break now, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll -- let me just see. Then we'll adjourn

12 until five minutes past 6.00. It's relatively short, but it took a lot of

13 time.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you were re-examining the witness.

17 Please proceed.


19 Q. You told us earlier that the name of the street that runs from the

20 School for the Blind to the intersection which appears on the left of the

21 photograph in front of you, which is P3279 Oa, is called Branka Bujica

22 Street. When you observed the sniper holes in the walls of the Institute

23 for the Blind buildings, did you notice any such holes on the sides of

24 those buildings which face towards the intersection of Branka Bujica

25 Street and Ante Babica?

Page 3959

1 A. Well, I would like to say that I did not see bullet holes on the

2 Institute for the Blind Children, but I saw openings, holes, for rifles

3 which they used to fire at civilians.

4 Q. That's, in fact, what I was meaning to ask you, whether you

5 noticed any of those holes for sniper fire on the sides of the buildings

6 facing that intersection.

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

10 Any of the colleagues, any questions?

11 Judge El Mahdi has a question for you, or perhaps even more.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, you spoke about a

15 ceasefire which was valid at the time of the incident, and you were asked

16 about the behaviour of the citizens and how it changed, or how it changed

17 when there was a ceasefire, in relation to when there was firing and

18 return of fire. So who decided on these ceasefires, as far as you know?

19 A. I don't know who signed. Presumably these ceasefires were signed

20 by the people who were in command, so to speak, in command of the armies,

21 who had the authority, whether it would be a president or somebody from

22 the military structure, I'm not sure. But we're talking about a ceasefire

23 where the people behaved differently. Yes, mostly. But this was a false

24 sense of security, because, as I said earlier, very often it happened

25 during several ceasefires -- I don't know how many there were in all --

Page 3960

1 that it was during the ceasefire that there were sudden shelling and there

2 was sniping and that this firing caused deaths of civilians. So as to

3 what I said before, we had our duty. Our obligation was to warn the

4 people who perhaps relaxed too much or were too exposed, particularly

5 women and children, because most of the time, depending on the situation

6 in the city itself, whether there was shelling or whether there was

7 stronger sniping, they mostly spent their time in cellars. They didn't

8 have the right conditions, not to say anything about that there was no

9 electricity, no food, water. And people tried to somehow manage, and they

10 were forced to expose themselves. And as the war went on, there was no

11 fuel, there was no wood, firewood, so they had to go to these places that

12 were truly exposed in order to gather some firewood, some -- so they could

13 cook what they had.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,

15 there were several ceasefires, and what you're saying is that the rule was

16 really that it was a non-ceasefire rather than a ceasefire; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And what was the rhythm of that

19 non-ceasefire? Was it the first time? Was it customary for the

20 parties -- who was in fact responsible, according to you, for the

21 breaking, violating the ceasefire?

22 A. As far as I know, this was the Serb army that was responsible.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So when we're talking about the

24 Institute for the Blind, you said that there were openings that were made

25 with a purpose to use as firing positions; is this correct?

Page 3961

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So the rhythm at which these

3 firings were done, was this continual or was it daily, or were there

4 intervals, or were there long intervals when police had to intervene?

5 A. Well, how can I say it? There was no rule really, because we

6 would have a shift, a shift on the front lines. So the shift would be for

7 ten days and then someone else would go for a change of shift. So

8 jokingly, we used to say that a shift arrived, a second shift arrived.

9 Perhaps paramilitary formations would arrive from Serbia or maybe Arkan's

10 men or White Eagles units that we called koker [phoen] shakers, meaning

11 chicken chasers. And mostly when these troops came, they really -- I can

12 say that -- they were absolutely merciless. Whoever put their nose out

13 into the open, they fired. And there was much more intense firing then,

14 in all directions.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] That is, the other party had an

16 easy access to leave and then go to -- and then return to the Centre for

17 the Blind, the Institute for the Blind?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia also has one more question for

21 you.

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 I would like you to have a look on the photograph. You have the

24 photograph there? That one. Okay. If we look at the Institute for the

25 Blind Children and to the place of the first victim, where the first

Page 3962

1 victim was found, we see an open space. My question is: Was there that

2 open space at that time, as it is today?

3 A. Yes, except that there were no trees. These trees were not there.

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. And if we have a look to the

5 second place of the second victim, we know that there was the building

6 which we are seeing now, but at that time I think that it was not

7 finished. But except for that, was there at that time an open space as

8 well?

9 A. Do you mean in relation to the second wounded?

10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The second wounded, yes.

11 A. Yes. These buildings -- in fact, that's not a building. This was

12 like a kiosk, like a small stand, kiosk.

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: It was, except for that it was an open space,

14 wasn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dziho, I also have a question for you. You have

18 answered some questions from the Defence about what in the questions was

19 called a special sniper unit, where you said no, this was not a special

20 sniper unit. You explained that this was a unit for special purposes,

21 created already in peacetime, and that it served as an anti-terrorist

22 unit. Could you tell us what you know about the operations of this unit

23 during the conflict? Unfortunately, I cannot recall the name given to it

24 by Ms. Pilipovic, since it was not immediately picked up by the short-hand

25 writers, but you know what unit I'm talking about?

Page 3963

1 A. Yes. This is Vikic's unit. He was a special -- member of

2 special forces even before the war, and during the first few days, when

3 the aggression started, and in relation to the conflict in the city

4 itself. You probably have at your disposal the recordings of the film of

5 when the people gathered in front of the Executive Council, in front of

6 the building of the Executive Council at Marin Dvor, and from the

7 direction of Vrbanja bridge, above Vrbanja bridge, fire was opened on the

8 civilians, and this is where the first civilian victim died. And this

9 bridge is today called the Bridge of Suada Dilberovic, who was a girl

10 killed. She was a student. I don't know how old she was. About 20

11 something.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dziho, I'm sorry for interrupting you. I'm not

13 especially interested in the first stages of the conflict, but do you know

14 anything about this unit in the later stages, summer 1992? Could

15 you tell us anything about the operations of that unit? That's the first

16 question: Under whose command was this unit?

17 A. As far as I know, I don't know until which year. Probably until

18 the end of the war. But the commander was Dragan Vikic. That's why it

19 was called Vikic's unit. And he was very well renowned in the city of

20 Sarajevo. The unit was mostly active, as far as I know, for defensive

21 purposes, and particularly in the beginning of the war, there were certain

22 attacks by tanks and armoured vehicles on the Presidency, and then Vikic's

23 units used anti-tank weapons to defend -- to destroy these few tanks and

24 to defend the Presidency. And this was their purpose mainly. If there

25 was an attack by what we called armoured units, they then would stop the

Page 3964

1 attack of these armoured units. That's as far as I know.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Were they on special assignments or were they

3 involved in the conflict at various places? Could you tell us a bit more

4 about it? And perhaps especially also because I think that was part of

5 the questions put to you whether they would use sniper rifles as well as

6 one of their methods or techniques, whatever you would call it.

7 A. As far as I know, no, they didn't.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know anything more about their involvement in

9 the conflict? You said -- you said they were especially, in the beginning

10 of the war, if there were attacks by tanks and armoured vehicles on the

11 Presidency, that they would then defend the Presidency. But in later

12 stages of the -- because do I understand you well that this is also

13 referring to the early stages of the conflict or ...?

14 A. In order to make it clear, perhaps that's why I'm trying to -- I'm

15 being a little more extensive. But as far as I know, this special unit

16 was based somewhere in the city, where they were on duty, where they were

17 on alert. And after they received a call or an information that there was

18 a shift in the front line, or if there was an armoured unit attack in

19 these -- somewhere, or perhaps an attack with an armoured vehicle, then

20 they would go to the location where there was this combat situation.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that they were especially called for

22 combat situations. Would that mean that they would not be called on more

23 or less stable front lines or ...?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer. Mr. Dziho, you've had to

Page 3965












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Page 3966

1 answer a lot of questions, both from the parties, from the Judges. You'll

2 understand that it's very important for the Court to fulfil its task, and

3 it's our tasks to take decisions on the cases that are in front of us.

4 It's very important that all the parties can put questions to the

5 witnesses that have been present during that period, in that area, that

6 we'll get answers to these questions, not only the parties, also the

7 Judges. I thank you very much for coming to The Hague and assisting the

8 Court in what this Court will have to do, and to say take decisions. I

9 know it's a very long way from Sarajevo, so I -- that's perhaps a special

10 reason to thank you, and apart from that, I wish you a safe trip home

11 again.

12 Mr. Usher, would you then please lead Mr. Dziho out of the

13 courtroom.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please assist us in going

17 through the documents that have been tendered in evidence.

18 THE REGISTRAR: P3279Oa, the photograph marked by the witness;

19 P3115, the map marked by the witness; the death certificate, P2664 in

20 B/C/S and the English translation, P2664.1; the record from the University

21 Medical Centre Sarajevo, P2477, and the English translation, P2477.1; and

22 the report from the public security station, P2476, and the English

23 translation, P2476.1.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in relation to the

Page 3967

1 2477 document, which is the document relating to the wounds of Ivan

2 Franjic, the Defence objects to this document because it is illegible and

3 because we do not have the corresponding stamp of the medical centre. And

4 as far as the death certificate is concerned, considering that Mr.

5 Augustin Vucic died, we cannot say that he died -- he died on the 1st of

6 June, 1994. We cannot say that it is related to the incident when he was

7 shot in March 1994, and really, in order to have this exhibit complete, we

8 would have to have a post-mortem report as well as a -- a post-mortem

9 report which would show whether the cause of death was because of the

10 wounding incident, and these are the objections of the Defence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, as far as the death certificate,

14 that's number 2644, is concerned, we have ruled in earlier stages of this

15 procedure -- of this proceedings that it's not necessarily from the death

16 certificate that the cause of death is established. This, of course,

17 could have some implications as far as the probative value of the document

18 is concerned. If there's no cause of death, it might be, as such, not

19 good enough to establish any cause of death. I think it's mainly tendered

20 in order to establish that the person mentioned in this document died.

21 Then the second, the illegibility of the medical report, the

22 Chamber does agree with you that parts are not very legible, but that does

23 not mean that this document could have no probative value at all, since

24 other parts are quite legible, even if that would not cover all the words

25 on it. And of course, we'll have to keep in mind that if a document is

Page 3968

1 not very legible, that this might the have some implications as far as the

2 probative value is concerned, and we'll decide on that, of course, at a

3 later stage. But it's not inadmissible as evidence at this very moment.

4 The same is valid as far as the absence of any stamp is concerned,

5 since it is not an absolute requirement for a document to be admitted into

6 evidence that there's a stamp on it, even if you would expect a stamp on

7 such kind of documents.

8 So all the documents tendered are admitted into evidence and all

9 my remarks I made about the probative value might be -- might have been

10 well understood by the Prosecution.

11 I think then, Mr. Ierace, we've still got enough time to call your

12 next witness, and that would be ...? Yes, please.

13 MR. IERACE: That's Mr. Pita, Mr. President, and that witness

14 will be taken by Mr. Mundis.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, would you please lead the witness

16 into the courtroom.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, as far as I'm informed?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, before giving your testimony -- before

23 giving your testimony in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence

24 require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the

25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text of this solemn

Page 3969

1 declaration will be given to you now by the usher, and I invite you to

2 make that declaration.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Pita. Please be seated.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you had to wait for a long time. I can

10 already indicate to you that we'll finish at 7.00. That's in 25 minutes.

11 So presumably your examination will be continued tomorrow, but you'll now

12 be first examined by counsel for the Prosecution, Mr. Mundis.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President

15 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

16 Q. For the record, Mr. Pita, would you please state your name and

17 date of birth.

18 A. Ekrem Pita; the 24th of November, 1949.

19 Q. Mr. Pita, you first moved to the city of Sarajevo in 1963; is that

20 correct?

21 A. It is.

22 Q. And have you lived in the city of Sarajevo constantly from 1963

23 through to the present?

24 A. Yes, I have, and always at the same address.

25 Q. The specific address is not necessary, sir, but could you please

Page 3970

1 tell the Trial Chamber what neighbourhood or region of the city you have

2 resided in since 1963.

3 A. I lived in municipality of Stari Grad, old town, and the

4 neighbourhood area was known as Sirokaca.

5 Q. Mr. Pita, can you tell the Trial Chamber what type of house or

6 what type of dwelling you live in?

7 A. I lived in my own house. It's my house, my own house.

8 Q. Do any other families live in your house?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Can you recall when the war started in Sarajevo?

11 A. The war in Sarajevo started on the 6th of April, 1992.

12 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how your life

13 changed as a result of the war's beginning in Sarajevo?

14 A. To put it in a nutshell, it changed 360 degrees.

15 Q. Can you elaborate, Mr. Pita?

16 A. Sure. Before the war, I lived very well. We were very well off.

17 No problems or anything. And in all went down the drain when the war

18 started.

19 Q. In what type of employment were you engaged when the war started?

20 A. I had a job. I was an electrician and I worked for a large

21 company, Energoinvest, and before the war I had a seniority of 25 years.

22 Q. Shortly after the war started in Sarajevo, did you become aware of

23 sniping incidents in the city?

24 A. Well, I learned something here and there around that something

25 happened, that day when the war started.

Page 3971

1 Q. And in the months after the war started, that would be in the

2 latter half of 1992, did you become aware of sniper activities in your

3 neighbourhood?

4 A. Yes, and it happened in my neighbourhood too, of course.

5 Q. Did the residents of your neighbourhood take any protective

6 measures to avoid being hit by sniper fire?

7 A. Yes, of course we did, even at home, because my house has a lower

8 part made of concrete, and we spent 90 per cent of our time in the cellar.

9 Q. Approximately how far was your house from the front lines, or the

10 confrontation lines, during the latter half of 1992?

11 A. As the crow flies, about 300, 350 metres. I'm really not an

12 expert, so I'm giving you just my own figure, an estimate.

13 Q. Mr. Pita, what were the two forces that were vying for control of

14 the city of Sarajevo?

15 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know what forces. I know they were

16 the aggressor forces and there was the defence, that is, the army of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was defending the city.

18 Q. The force that you referred to as the aggressor force, was that

19 the Bosnian Serb army, otherwise known by the acronym VRS?

20 A. Well, I suppose so. It was they and the Yugoslav People's Army,

21 yes.

22 Q. Shortly after the war began, did you lose electrical power to your

23 house?

24 A. My neighbourhood, the power was cut off. I had no telephone, nor

25 water, or power, as of the 2nd of May. The whole infrastructure went out

Page 3972

1 in my neighbourhood, and my house, of course.

2 Q. Can you tell us where your family went to obtain water for your

3 household?

4 A. Well, we were trying to manage in different ways to get some

5 household water I went with my girl. But that happened. That was then.

6 It was about 150 metres from my house. And it's not drinking water. Its

7 source is a surface source, and we used that. And then the drinking

8 water, we went to different places where we were allowed to go and take it

9 for our personal consumption.

10 Q. The water that you've described as household water, where did you

11 get that from?

12 A. This is surface water. It was wintertime and we had made it

13 ourselves, my neighbours and I. And in spring and summer, when there

14 would be some water, then we would use it for those purposes. Otherwise,

15 I mean, when there was no water, then there was no water.

16 Q. This surface water, was it draining off of the hill or mountain

17 nearby to where you resided?

18 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nods.

19 A. Yes, you could put it that way.


21 Q. And had one of your neighbours fashioned a pipe in order to divert

22 this groundwater so it could be collected in buckets and jugs and various

23 other containers?

24 A. That is how it was. He did that. He made it, and we asked him,

25 "Well, can we use it if there is any?" And he said yes, we could, and

Page 3973

1 that is what we did.

2 Q. And this source of water was approximately 150 metres from your

3 house; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Mr. Pita, when the war started, how many children did you and your

6 wife have?

7 A. Only Anisa, and Anisa was born after 20 years of marriage.

8 Q. And what was Anisa's birth date?

9 A. Anisa was born on the 16th of June, 1989.

10 Q. Would it be fair to characterise your relationship with Anisa as

11 one that is particularly close?

12 A. Well, from the very day that she became conscious of herself, to

13 this day, and I think she is closer -- she feels closer to me even, I

14 think, than to her mother.

15 Q. Is it common for Anisa to follow you during those times when

16 you're not at work, follow you around the house?

17 A. Non-stop.

18 Q. Did there come a time during the war in Sarajevo that your

19 daughter Anisa was the victim of a sniper?

20 A. Yes. We really were very mindful. We took care that nothing

21 happened to her. And we kept warning her not to come out, to go down to

22 the cellar, because we were afraid.

23 Q. Do you recall the date that your daughter Anisa was the victim of

24 a sniper?

25 A. Yes, of course I remember it. I remember it as long as I live.

Page 3974

1 The 13th of December. It was Sunday, in 1992.

2 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber what you did that day,

3 starting with the time when you woke up in the morning.

4 A. Yes, of course. Well, it was a night like any other night. We

5 went to bed early and we also got up early, because there was no

6 electricity or anything. So that was that. And so we got up this

7 morning, and she did at the same time as my wife and I did. And my wife

8 and I talked, and she said that I should bring some water, because we had

9 to do some laundry, and for the bathroom. And Anisa heard that and said,

10 "I want to come with you." And that is how we agreed, and around 10.00

11 or half past 10.00 -- why the you exactly -- we went off to get water and

12 had some pot of about 20 or 30 litres, and she had with her some small

13 bucket, a pail or something, of two or three litres, so that she could

14 help me. And so we set off. She was holding me by the hand and we

15 reached that water, where we were to fill the vessel.

16 Q. What was the weather like that day, Mr. Pita?

17 A. That day was overcast. There was no snow, but it was sort of

18 foggy.

19 Q. Did the two of you then proceed to fill up your water cannisters?

20 A. No. No, we did not. When we got there, the woman whose house it

21 is there, I asked her -- there were some people. I don't know who they

22 were. And she said, "Just wait a moment until this water -- until they

23 get the water and then you take it." And as I stood -- she also has a

24 daughter, Alma is her name, perhaps a couple of years older than Anisa.

25 And she was staying there and Anisa asked her, "Alma, would you come with

Page 3975












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Page 3976

1 me home so that we can play together?" And her mother said, "No problem.

2 Why not?" But I didn't feel like taking her along. I wasn't really for

3 it. But since they liked each other, I didn't really want to say that,

4 and I said all right. But then Anisa said, "Well, let's go," and they

5 left and I stayed behind to get this water. And as they were about

6 halfway from this water to the house, one could hear shots. And to tell

7 you the truth, I panicked and I started reckoning, well, this way from

8 that house and along the road one cannot see anything, because it is in a

9 hollow, but they will get there. But they had left and I stayed behind.

10 So my turn came and I spent some 10 to 20 metres to fill this water. And

11 as I walked back home, some 10 or 20 metres away, a neighbour was standing

12 there and asked me, "Ekrem, where have you been?" And I said, "Well, I

13 have gone to get some water." And from this place one could see my

14 terrace and I could see that something was wrong. That something was

15 wrong.

16 And he said, "Do you know that Anisa has been wounded?" And I

17 felt very bad at that moment. I sipped a little bit of that water, but

18 then I somehow made it to the house and entered the house and Anisa was

19 with her mother and brothers and those neighbours and they were all

20 inside. And she saw that I was panicky and not all right. She said, "Not

21 my head. Not my head, dad. I was hit in my leg, Pop." And other people

22 were fussing about her, but nobody was doing anything specific. Then I

23 picked her up and I saw that she had been hit in her right leg, somewhere

24 above the knee. And then I -- well, and I reckoned then that perhaps it

25 wasn't dangerous, but I was afraid that perhaps there could be some

Page 3977

1 internal bleeding because I knew more or less that that would not be all

2 right.

3 And then my wife, as we were, we took her to the health centre in

4 Stari Grad and they examined her and noted that she had been hit, but the

5 bullet had gone through. And at the same time, they forwarded -- they

6 sent us to the orthopaedic surgery and we went there straight away. We

7 got there and they cleaned up the wound and she cried and wept and it was

8 horrible. But they dressed the wound and we took her back home.

9 And when I got back home, I found all my relatives there. They

10 were all there in the house. And meanwhile, my brother told me that they

11 had found the bullet which had hit her and that it had ended up in a

12 slipper or something. One could see the place where the bullet had hit,

13 where the bullet had struck. But she was given all the medicines and were

14 told that for about three weeks I should take her to the clinic every

15 three or four days, or even more frequently, if need be, for the

16 check-ups, so that my wife and I had to get there. And I must say, it was

17 more difficult for me to carry this child which was 3 years and 5 months.

18 It was three or four kilometres. Of course, we had to carry her every

19 time, because there was no transportation. And because there was all the

20 time some gunfire and shelling and all that. And that was worse for me

21 than to wait at this water source. So we did that for 20 days and after

22 that she went when it was necessary. But now she walks. She has not

23 suffered any long-term effects, except when the weather changes, then she

24 complains that her leg hurts. And that's the story.

25 Q. Mr. Pita, when your daughter Anisa and her friend Alma left you

Page 3978

1 at the water source to go back to your house, did you say anything to

2 them?

3 A. I told them to take care, and I told Alma, "You're older, so

4 look out. Be careful."

5 Q. Do you recall if anywhere along the route between the water source

6 and your house there was an area where pedestrians would be exposed to

7 sniper fire?

8 A. No, no. No, no, no. Not a single spot. The only place where it

9 could have happened, it could have been that terrace that had, plus,

10 minus, five or six metres.

11 Q. This would be the terrace to your house; is that correct?

12 A. It is. It is, yes.

13 Q. After returning from the hospital, did you discuss with your wife

14 whether or not Anisa was injured before she got home or after she arrived

15 at your home?

16 A. Well, she returned home, because it was with me that she had gone

17 to this water. When she came home, as she was entering the front door,

18 that is what my wife told me, and that's -- yes, that's how it was.

19 Q. Did your wife tell you anything about what Anisa was doing at the

20 time that she was shot?

21 A. Yes. When the two of them got there, she was wearing some

22 slippers or something. That is, there were no laces on the footwear, so

23 that she took them off and they entered the house so that they could

24 collect their toys and go downstairs in the cellar to play. But Anisa did

25 have some proper shoes, that is, something that she had with laces. So

Page 3979

1 mother told her to take them off, because they were dirty, and then to go

2 back. And when it happened, Anisa did not start crying, so my wife said

3 she did not realise anything. She didn't realise what happened. And

4 Anisa said, "Oh, mother, it hurts me here," and that is when my wife

5 looked at it and saw it and that is when everybody came.

6 Q. And from what had happened, did your wife deduce that your

7 daughter had been shot while removing her boots that she had been wearing

8 when she went to get the water with you?

9 A. Well, yes. She even thought that it was finished. And she said,

10 "Mommy, mommy, it's not my head." But the girl held onto her leg where

11 she had been hit.

12 Q. Mr. Pita, you mentioned a few moments ago that when you arrived

13 back home, there were some brothers present. Whose brothers were at your

14 house when you arrived after collecting the water?

15 A. My brothers.

16 Q. And where in relation to your house did your brothers live?

17 A. A house below mine. We are next-door neighbours.

18 Q. Did any other members of your family live in the immediate

19 vicinity of your house?

20 A. Well, no. My brothers and a sister, that is, two brothers and a

21 sister lived in that house below, and I was with my family in this other

22 house above.

23 Q. Mr. Pita, from the time you left your house on the 13th of

24 December, 1992 with your daughter to collect the water, until the time you

25 returned to your house, approximately how much time had elapsed?

Page 3980

1 A. About 45 minutes, maybe an hour.

2 Q. And when you returned to your house, approximately how many people

3 had gathered to assist your wife?

4 A. About, plus, minus, 15, 20. Because, you know, the street

5 and the houses are close by, so that everybody knew it.

6 Q. While you were at the hospital, did one or more of your brothers

7 find the bullet that had struck your daughter?

8 A. I've already said so. My elder brother, he told me when he came

9 back, yes, he told me that he had found it.

10 Q. Did he tell you anything about the type of bullet that he found in

11 your house?

12 A. He didn't. He said it was, I think, 7.6 millimetres and that was

13 a sniper bullet. I really am not an expert. I'm not conversant with

14 these kinds of things, so I don't know.

15 Q. Do either your brother or yourself still have possession of this

16 bullet?

17 A. No, unfortunately. I simply didn't want to have it with me, so my

18 eldest brother, he took it. But after a while, I had another problem in

19 the family. My second daughter was born. Unfortunately, it was very

20 hard, and she spent a long time in the hospital. And my wife, the

21 delivery was very difficult. And we left the country on the 24th of

22 March, because of this little one. And when we returned in 1998, then I

23 asked him, "Do you have it anywhere?" And he said, "No. I've misplaced

24 it. I've lost it."

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, would this be a suitable moment to

Page 3981

1 interrupt.

2 MR. MUNDIS: If I could ask one question and then we'll break

3 until tomorrow.



6 Q. Mr. Pita, on the day that your daughter was shot, how old was she?

7 A. I know every second of her life. Anisa was 3 years, 5 months, and

8 27 days old.

9 MR. MUNDIS: This would be a very convenient place to stop,

10 Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

12 Mr. Pita, as I indicated to you before, we are not able to finish

13 your examination today at 7.00 and we have to stop. Tomorrow, in the

14 afternoon, we'll continue, at a quarter past 2.00, in this same courtroom.

15 We'll adjourn until 2.15 tomorrow in the afternoon.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.

17 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of

18 February 2002, at 2.15 p.m.