1 Tuesday, 19 February 2002
2 [The accused entered court]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
4 [Private session]
12 Pages 3983 to 3985 – redacted – private session.
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are in open session now. Mr. Mundis.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, perhaps before the witness is brought
24 back into the courtroom, in order to give effect to the Trial Chamber's
25 rulings with respect to the daughter of the current witness, I'm not aware
1 A. No, no, nothing. Nothing.
2 Q. When you arrived back at your house that morning, you've testified
3 that there were quite a few people in your house. Were any of those
4 people wearing military uniforms?
5 A. No. Nobody.
6 Q. Were there any military weapons or heavy military equipment
7 outside your house that morning?
8 A. Well, from what I know there, no, no. And I never noticed any.
9 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown the 360-degree
10 panorama photo which has been marked P3279P.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the booth assist us -- no, it's not the
12 booth. I make the same mistake as I did last time. The case manager is
13 now putting the picture on the screen. Yes, please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
14 MR. MUNDIS:
15 Q. Mr. Pita, can you look at the screen in front of you and tell the
16 Trial Chamber what is visible on the screen.
17 A. What you see is the entrance into the house, and the passage and
18 the door to the living room.
19 Q. The brown door on the centre right or the right centre of the
20 photograph, is that the front door to your house?
21 A. Yes, yes, it is.
22 MR. MUNDIS: I'll ask that the photograph please be panned to the
24 Pause there, please.
25 Q. Mr. Pita, there appears to be a gate or a door in the centre of
1 the photograph. Does that door or gate lead to the street that is in
2 front of your house?
3 A. It does, yes. It does.
4 Q. And in the lower centre of the photograph, there appears to be
5 concrete. Is that what you refer to as the terrace or the balcony of your
7 A. From the gate towards the house, about 2 metres is this entrance.
8 And then after 2 metres or so of this concrete slab, there's some stairs,
9 and then comes the terrace.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Could you please pan the photograph further to the
12 Please pause there.
13 Q. Is the area shown on the lower right hand portion of this
14 photograph now visible, the area that you refer to as the terrace?
15 A. Yes. Yes. That is the terrace.
16 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the photograph, please, be panned
17 upwards. And if we could then zoom in, please.
18 That's fine. Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Pita, off in the distance, beyond the tree branch that's in
20 the immediate -- the front of the picture, can you tell us what's visible
21 in the background at the upper centre portion of the picture that's in
22 front of you, please.
23 A. As far as I can see, it is those two facilities from which Anisa
24 was targeted presumably. Those up there. It's so-called Baba Stijena,
25 Baba rock.
1 Q. Approximately how far from your terrace is the Baba rock located?
2 A. I said it yesterday. I said that I was not an expert so I don't
3 really know. It can be 350, 550 as the crow flies.
4 Q. Which armed force or forces controlled the Baba stone or Baba
6 A. I said it yesterday, it was the army of Republika Srpska and the
7 former Yugoslav army.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. If the photograph can be zoomed back
9 outwards. And please continue panning to the right.
10 That's fine. Thank you very much.
11 I'd ask that the witness now be shown the photograph marked P3267,
12 please. I'd ask that the usher please place that photograph on the ELMO.
13 Q. Mr. Pita, I'd ask you to take a look at the photograph which is
14 visible to your right. Perhaps on the screen in front of you. Can you
15 tell us -- can you tell us where this photograph was taken?
16 A. The photograph was taken approximately from the entrance from the
17 steps to the -- from the gate to the steps to the terrace approximately
18 from there.
19 Q. That would be approximately the area inside the gates on the lower
20 concrete area that you previously identified in the last electronic
21 photograph? Is that correct, Mr. Pita?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. And on a previous occasion, in 2001, were you shown this
24 photograph by an investigator from the Tribunal?
25 A. Yes, I was.
1 Q. And did you, in fact, make some markings with a black marker on
2 this photograph?
3 A. Yes, I draw this line around, this shape. And I put -- there's a
4 rose here, and then I put an arrow to where the firing came from. That's
5 what I believe. There's no other location where it could have come from,
6 not even theoretically.
7 Q. This small tree that's in the -- enclosed within the line that you
8 drew, why did you circle that tree?
9 A. We circled it because there were no -- there were no other trees,
10 neither higher than lower. It wasn't there. My brothers planted it.
11 Q. That tree was planted after the war. Is that correct?
12 A. After we left the country, so it wasn't there before.
13 Q. And when you say "left the country," that was to seek medical
14 treatment for your second daughter. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it's correct.
16 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness now be shown the video which
17 has been marked P3280P, please.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If the booth could assist us. Yes, I see it's
19 already on the screen.
20 [Videotape played]
21 "INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Could you please show me by pointing
22 where, to the best of your recollection, you heard gunfire shortly before
23 your daughter Anisa was shot.
24 "Thank you. Could you now please show me where, to the best of
25 your recollection, the bullet hole was before the wall was repaired.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 "I can see traces of repair work on the wall at this location,
2 and I am going to place a small red marks with a red tip felt pen."
3 MR. MUNDIS:
4 Q. Mr. Pita, did you recognise yourself in that videotape?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. And to the best of your recollection, did you comply with the
7 directions of the investigator truthfully and honestly?
8 A. Yeah, I think so.
9 Q. Yesterday you testified that while you and your wife and your
10 daughter were at the hospital, your brother found the bullet that struck
11 your daughter. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. And the spot in the lower part of the door frame that you
14 indicated to the investigator was the spot where the bullet struck the
15 wall after striking your daughter. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. You also told us yesterday that after your daughter was released
18 from the hospital, that you had to take her back for periodic medical
19 treatment. Do you remember saying that?
20 A. Yes, I remember. That's exactly how it was.
21 Q. Approximately -- for approximately how long -- withdraw that
22 question. How long after your daughter was discharged from the hospital
23 did this periodic medical treatment continue?
24 A. Approximately we took her for three weeks, every three or four
25 days, as the doctors told us, for a checkup and also for a change of
2 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber how you took your daughter
3 to the hospital for those periodic checkups?
4 A. Yes, I can. My wife and I took her, but we didn't take her. We
5 had to carry her from my house to the hospital. There is roughly 3 or 4
6 kilometres, and we had to carry her. And it was very dangerous. We had
7 to take very dangerous streets under fire. As I said yesterday, and I'm
8 repeating it, these moments were far worse for me because when she was
9 wounded, I saw that she was all right, that she was going to be all
10 right. But then I thought what is going to happen if something happens to
11 us on the way to the hospital or the way back from the hospital. And then
12 of course she wouldn't go to the hospital. Then she would say well I will
13 go to the hospital if you buy me a chocolate. I had to convince her. One
14 chocolate to the way there and one for the way back. It was very
16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Pita. The Prosecution has no further
17 questions at this time, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
19 Ms. Pilipovic, Defence is ready to cross-examine the witness?
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, questions will now be put to you by counsel
22 for the Defence.
23 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pita, good afternoon.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. Yesterday during the examination-in-chief by my learned colleague,
4 you said that until the beginning of the conflict in Sarajevo, you worked
5 in Union Invest as an electrician. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell us until when did you work in Union Invest as an
8 electrician, until what day did you go to work?
9 A. To tell you exactly, after November 1991, I did not go to work. I
10 was then on a waiting list. There was no work in the company.
11 Q. So what you're saying, that from November 1991, you did not go to
12 work, to the building of Union Invest, that's where your working place
14 A. I did not work there in the building of Union Invest. I was
15 working in different facilities, in different buildings.
16 Q. Could you tell us from November 1991, since you were on a waiting
17 schedule, did you do any other kind of work? Did you work somewhere else
18 as an electrician?
19 A. Yes, I worked privately in the town somewhere. In different
21 Q. When you say that you worked privately and in the city, until when
22 did you work privately in the city?
23 A. I worked until the 4th of April, and I even worked on that day.
24 Q. When you say that you worked until the 4th of April, 1992, are you
25 telling us that after that, you did not work any more?
1 A. No, I did not work after that. It was not possible to walk
2 around. I came back home, and I did not move from -- did not go out of my
4 Q. The neighbourhood where you lived in, does it have a specific
5 name? What part of town is it?
6 A. I said it yesterday.
7 Q. Yes, you said it was Stari Grad, old town.
8 A. I said it was Stari Grad, old town Sirokaca.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
10 like to show the witness that section of the map so that the witness could
11 mark for us on the map this old town Sirokaca and approximately where his
12 house was, if we can then have a picture of this neighbourhood as the
13 witness says. We have got copies of the map of town, and then using the
14 map, we would like to ask some more questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic, and I'll ask the
16 usher to assist you in distributing the copies.
17 THE REGISTRAR: The number for the map will be D49.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Pita, you have before you a portion of the map of the city.
21 The Defence copied the part of town which encompasses your area of town,
23 Could you perhaps circle on this map that you can see next to you
24 using the black pen the Sirokaca.
25 A. To tell you the truth, I cannot see it there. I mean...
1 Q. Mr. Pita, perhaps you could use a pen so that we can see it on our
2 screens, so that we can all see it on our screens.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, could you please leave it on the screen to
4 the right of you because that's how we get the picture on our screen.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Pita, you circled just the name Sirokaca. You marked the area
7 Sirokaca. Could you perhaps put number 1 on that circle so that we know
8 that that is Sirokaca.
9 A. [Marks].
10 Q. Then, in relation to this circle, could you perhaps mark the place
11 within or outside of the circle where your house was -- where your house
13 A. The street is not on there.
14 Q. What was the name of the street, or what is the name of the street
15 if the name didn't change?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the name of the
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, could you please repeat your answer as to
19 what street your house was located.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zagrici Street.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Witness, if we look at the circle that you marked as number 1, a
24 little bit to the left you will see that there is a street called Zagrici
25 there. Is that your street where you lived? On the left-hand side, if
1 you can see from this fork, from these forking streets in relation to the
3 A. I can't see it, but I lived on that street and I still live on
4 that street.
5 Q. You can see above the circle on the left-hand side there is a
6 street called Zagrici. The circle doesn't encompass it all. You probably
7 didn't see it very well.
8 A. Yeah, well, I don't have very good eyesight. I cannot see it very
10 Q. If I tell you that it says Zagrici, would you then agree?
11 A. Yes, if it says, that then it is.
12 Q. Well you cannot see the Z because you marked it with a black pen.
13 A. Yes, this is the street. That's the street.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pita.
15 Considering that you told us that you live in this area, in this
16 circle that you marked, could you tell us whether the source of this water
17 that you went to fetch, is it within the circle as well?
18 A. No, it's not. The source is not. The source is to the left, on
19 my left.
20 Q. Could you perhaps mark it on the map for us, this location where
21 you went with Anisa to fetch the water.
22 A. [Marks].
23 Q. Perhaps it will be easier to orientate yourself.
24 A. I cannot tell you for sure.
25 Q. We don't need you to be absolutely certain.
1 A. I know that it is to the left side. As well, looking at the
2 picture, it's to the left.
3 Q. Is it in relation --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I ask you, you know the technique
5 better than the witness who is just looking at the screen and sees the
6 picture at this moment to make a pause between the answer and your next
8 Mr. Pita, you and Ms. Pilipovic are using the same language, and
9 if you respond immediately once you heard the question, the interpreters
10 will not be able to translate quick enough what you said. And since we
11 are all very much interested to hear what your answer to the questions is,
12 could you also make a brief pause before you answer the questions.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Pita, could you tell us, give us an estimate, how far away
15 from your house this source is, is it a metre or kilometre?
16 A. I said it was about 150 metres from my house. It was
17 not a real source. It was just a man who was using surface water with a
18 pipe. It's not really a source.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 When you told us that from April, you did not go into the city,
21 did I understand you correctly?
22 A. I did go when I really had to.
23 Q. Could you tell us in this part of the city where you lived, were
24 there any incidents? Did you notice any clashes?
25 A. No, no, clashes. I did not notice. I never saw anything, and I
1 don't know anything about it.
2 Q. Could you give us an answer, looking at the house on the street
3 where you lived, do you know anything -- do you know anything about a
4 location that you knew that the units of the BH army or the VRS army were
6 A. I couldn't know that. I told you the BH army, I don't know where
7 they were based. I was not -- I was not a member of the army. I had
8 family and personal problems from the start. So I wouldn't know. From
9 that house, you could see that there are those marks from shelling.
10 Q. You told us now that you were not engaged in the BH army because
11 you had family problems. Could you tell us on what kind of information
12 are you -- on the basis of what information are you telling us that if
13 we're looking -- if we're looking at the Baba rock, and your house, how
14 can you tell that the Baba rock was under that control, under the control
15 of the Serb army?
16 A. Well, because from my house you can see it. You can see it from
17 the street. And it is -- it was obvious that this was used by the VRS
18 army. You can see that the street below was used, and you can see it even
19 now that there was a hole and there were two trenches. So it's a very
20 simple issue.
21 Q. On the map which is before you, could you mark in relation to the
22 street where you lived? A part of your neighbourhood or above your
23 neighbourhood where the Baba rock is?
24 A. I cannot see it on this particular image.
25 Q. But if you look at the map, on the right-hand side, on your right
1 side, on the map, perhaps you can see it a bit better.
2 A. It is possible to see, but I can't really.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, could you please look at the map as it is
4 on the machine. Perhaps, Mr. Usher, could you assist, because that map is
5 bigger than what you see on the screen.
6 So the question is whether you can identify this particular rock
7 on the map.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have a very bad eyesight, and
9 I really can't find my bearings on this map.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if the witness is not able to -- you
11 might have seen it. I even use my glasses now and then.
12 Please proceed.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. If you're telling us that this rock is called Baba, could you tell
15 us, is this an area of the town, or is it some kind of high ground, some
16 elevation where a rock is?
17 A. The rock is called Baba. That's what we called it.
18 Q. Could you perhaps give us a description. When we say a "rock" is
19 it some kind of a hill? When we say rock, we mean a rock. Is this some
20 kind of an elevation in relation to your house?
21 A. Yes, it's an elevation. It's a rock above the house.
22 Q. You told us that in relation to your house as the crow flies,
23 about 250, 300 metres, you did not measure it?
24 A. No, I did not measure it, and I don't know. I'm not an expert.
25 Q. Did you go to that rock, for instance, in 1992, 1993, or 1995, or
1 1998 when you returned?
2 A. I have never been to the rock, and I never intend to go to the
4 Q. Did you go before the incident happened?
5 A. No, I never went. Perhaps before the war, maybe for picnics I
6 went, long before the war.
7 Q. How long -- how long would it take you to get to the rock? How
8 many kilometres even if you walked or if you took any kind of transport?
9 A. It was perhaps a kilometre and a half, something like that.
10 1.000, 1.200 metres. But really, I never measured it so I don't know.
11 There are experts I'm sure who can work it out.
12 Q. Could you tell us, since you told us already that you left
13 Sarajevo for family reasons, and you returned in 1998, can you tell me --
14 can you tell us when you left Sarajevo?
15 A. I left Sarajevo on 24th of March, 1994.
16 Q. So from December 1992, and the moment when the incident happened
17 and your daughter was wounded, until the moment you left Sarajevo, you
18 said that you often went for checkups with your daughter. Can you tell us
19 in that period on the way to the hospital or to the medical centre, did
20 you see soldiers?
21 A. To tell you the truth, I never saw anyone, not in that part of the
22 road, never. I was never interested in that. I've got to explain you
23 something. In the beginning of the war, my father died. My wife had a
24 mastectomy. I really had a lot of problems to do with my family. I'm not
25 interested in it even really today.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Could you tell us, on that day when the incident happened and when
2 you entered the house, in talking to your daughter and to your wife, did
3 you find out in which position was your daughter standing at the moment
4 when she was wounded?
5 A. To tell you the truth, you can imagine what it was like when I
6 entered the house. At that time, I didn't ask any questions. I did not
7 really feel very well, but I had to be the first one to react because
8 nobody would react. So whatever happened I would -- I took her,
9 returned. We did talk about it. I asked her -- I asked my wife, and she
10 said Anisa was turned. She was facing the door, and she was bending over
11 to do her -- to take her sneakers off because the wife had told her to
12 take the sneakers off because she had just cleaned the -- cleaned the
13 house so that she wouldn't make it dirty. And as she was undoing the
14 sneakers, this is what happened, and this is when my little girl started
15 to cry. Sorry. And then my wife reacted, asked her what happened, and
16 then what happened is that my little girl screamed.
17 Q. Considering that you showed us on the 360-degree photograph, you
18 showed us the entrance door, the spot where you presume the bullet struck,
19 do you allow for the possibility that the bullet ricochetted on
20 the door?
21 A. This was not the door, this was the corner of the wall.
22 A. Well, I don't know. If it had, then it would have gone in a
23 different direction. I'm telling you, Anisa was wounded in the upper leg,
24 in her thigh. So probably what happened was the bullet went from the
25 inner thigh, at the inner thigh and then exited the other side of the
1 thigh. And then struck the wall. That's probably what happened.
2 Q. You said that your brother found the bullet?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did your brother tell you where he found it?
5 A. Yes, he did. He said he found it in one of the slippers that were
6 there, that were just there on the floor, on the ground or somewhere under
7 the slippers. That's what he said. I didn't ask many questions, to be
8 honest. He just told me that.
9 Q. So you're telling us that you never saw the bullet?
10 A. Yes, I did see the bullet. He told me how he found, it and then
11 when I saw the bullet, I did not want to keep it or look at it or have
12 anything to do with it.
13 Q. Today we were able to see on the 360-degrees photograph the
14 terrace in front of your house. Could you tell us, as you go out on to
15 your terrace, apart from seeing the hill that you say is Baba, that you
16 can see Baba rock, what other parts of town in relation to that side or
17 the hills, what other parts of town or hills? What do you see when you
18 come out on to the terrace? Because we could see that there was another
19 house on the other side. What else do you see?
20 A. Nothing much. When you come out of the terrace, I can see another
21 house, of course now today there are more houses, but I'm talking about
22 then. There was one house, and then there was a cemetery up there, higher
23 up. There was -- at the time, Sarajevo, there was not enough wood,
24 firewood, so they would be cutting wood. Of course, none of this would
25 have happened had there been trees there. But of course they had been cut
1 down so you could see everything.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, you are talking quite quickly, which I
3 understand. But we would like to hear whatever you say to us, and it
4 first has to be translated. So if it would be possible, would you please
5 slow down a bit, and then Ms. Pilipovic waits before she puts a new
6 question to you.
7 If you see the text on the screen, perhaps you could wait to
8 answer the question up to the moment where it stops moving. Yes. I have
9 a full understanding, but we would really like to hear what you tell us.
10 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Witness, you told us that you could see Hambina Carina and the
13 cemetery. Can you tell us in relation to the circle where you put number
14 1, can you also circle the -- this area where you say that one can see
15 the cemetery and Hambina Carina?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, perhaps if you -- I'm sorry. Mr. Pita,
19 perhaps you first look at the screen where it is larger.
20 Mr. Usher, could you please then move the map a bit to the right.
21 A bit more to the right so that we can see at least the 1. Put the 1 in
22 the centre of the -- yes. Perhaps it could be zoomed in now a bit.
23 Please stop.
24 Can you see it now on the screen, Mr. Pita?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I see it. Yes, I see it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Can you try to also find it on the map on the
2 right-hand side of you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And then circle the area where you said you could see
5 the cemetery and Hambina Carina.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't read this.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, for
8 the record, can the witness tell us in relation to this circle -- he need
9 not circle it -- does he see that under -- that below this circle is the
10 Hambina Carina part of the road.
11 Q. Can you see that?
12 A. Yes, yes, yes, I can.
13 Q. And above the line where it says "Hambina Carina," then there was
14 a cemetery. Is that what you are talking about?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Can you then tell us in relation to the cemetery that you see, is
17 the hill that you can see beyond the street Cicin Han or the street
18 Hambina Carina?
19 A. Cicin Han I can see. That street, as far as I know, it goes right
20 through the middle of the cemetery. It goes through the cemetery.
21 Q. And where, if it can be precise, in relation to Cicin Han, in
22 relation to the Hambina Carina cemetery, where is this Baba rock? Where
23 is this elevation, where you say is this in relation to Cicin Han Street
24 or Hambina Carina?
25 A. It is over Hambina Carina from my house and over Hambina Carina
1 and that would be the direction.
2 Q. We see here Braykovac, Cicin Han. Would you allow that it is in
3 that part of, that is below Hambina Carina? Is that elevation Baba rock
5 A. Baba rock is to the right of Braykovac.
6 Q. Is it in relation to this part where it says Lipe?
7 A. No, it is not.
8 Q. Not where it says Lipe?
9 A. Let me tell you. I don't really know these streets, and I can't
10 find my way particularly around them. I told you, I was not hit. But
11 from that place I told you there is my house, one house above me, and then
12 you can see the cemetery, and beyond the cemetery is this rock, Baba.
13 That's what I'm telling you. This way, I can't do it.
14 Q. Do you have any knowledge, if in 1992, 1993 who lived in those
15 houses that you say you could see from your terrace?
16 A. There was one man less than 50 metres away, there was a neighbour
17 of mine who lived in that house and who still lives there for that matter.
18 Q. On the basis of your statement, we learned that the incident
19 happened in December, or to be precise, and so that I don't ask you again,
20 it was the 13th of December, 1992.
21 Can you tell us whether that day or that night, whether you could
22 hear if there was any gunfire in relation to that part of the city in
23 which you lived?
24 A. That night was quiet. There was no gunfire, nothing. There
25 would be a shot here and there. And in the morning, I wouldn't have gone
1 with the child to fetch that water had there been any gunfire, but it was
2 all quiet. There was nothing, nothing.
3 Q. You told us that it was foggy in the morning.
4 A. Well, I said, yes, it was hazy. It was overcast. That is what I
6 Q. And you said that you went around 10 or half past 10.00. You were
7 not precise, that you left the house. Can you tell us what the weather
8 was like then?
9 A. Well, I've already said. It was overcast, and there were those
10 patches of fog, that is, it was slightly hazy. I'm telling you
11 again I wouldn't have taken my child along if I thought we wouldn't get
12 through. 40 minutes, half an hour, I don't know how long we were there, I
13 could see that everything was clear. And then when the shot, it was the
14 house, I told the Elma, the older one, just look out and at that moment
15 the gunfire started.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, may I remind you to slow down a bit.
17 Because they first have to listen to you, and then they have to translate
18 it, only then can we hear it.
19 Please proceed.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you remove this slide from the
21 screen, because then I could have some control. As it is now, I don't
23 JUDGE ORIE: Do you still need the map, Ms. Pilipovic, or? No,
24 then please, Mr. Usher, would you change the screen again.
25 Do you see the text now again?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Witness, you said that you -- that you had problems in your
4 family, and that you were not interested in matters military, to simplify
5 it. What about your brothers, those who lived nearby, your brother from
6 your proper family. Was any of them a member of the BH army, and did he
7 tell you if there was any fighting in that part of the city?
8 A. Let me tell you, I did not communicate, and we didn't talk about
9 it. I do not know that. I didn't talk to them.
10 Q. In relation to the time when the incident happened on the 13th of
11 December, 1992, can you tell us how many days before that did you hear
12 whether there was any gunfire and at what time?
13 A. I can't really remember. All I know is that sometime in June,
14 five or six shells fell around my house. That is the gate, the garage,
15 the house, and one could hear quite often the rifle. I mean, there was
16 often fire.
17 Q. When you say there was fire often, how often is that in relation
18 to a month or a week?
19 A. I don't know. Well, there would be every day, there would be a
20 bullet or two or several times. We spent most of the time in the cellar
21 so that we didn't...
22 Q. Can you tell us how often -- and when I say "often," I mean in
23 relation to a week -- how often did you go to that part to fetch water, to
24 that part in relation to your house to that part of the city or to the
25 neighbourhood? How often did you go?
1 A. We went when the need arose.
2 Q. When you say you went when the need arose, can you be more
3 specific and tell us what does this need mean? Per week or a day?
4 A. No, a day, well, one -- well, when my wife said we needed some
5 water, then we would go there. I can't say whether it was a week or a
6 day. You know how things happen.
7 Q. You said that there was fire often. Can you tell us from which
8 directions and from which parts of the city did you hear this gunfire?
9 A. I cannot tell you about other parts of the city. I can talk about
10 my area only. It was above our houses up there, and I told you from those
11 positions. I've told you that.
12 Q. Do you have any knowledge that from these positions from which you
13 say the gunfire came, do you know if that fire was returned towards those
15 A. I really don't know.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a second. Let
17 me consult my co-counsel to see if we have any further questions.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Ms. Pilipovic.
19 [Defence counsel confer]
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no
21 further questions. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
23 Mr. Mundis, any need to re-examine the witness?
24 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pita, since the Bench has no further questions
1 for you, this ends your examination as a witness in this courtroom.
2 Please be aware that this Court understands quite well what it is for you
3 to come the long way from Sarajevo to The Hague, and I hope that you'll be
4 convinced that this Court finds it very important that all the questions
5 put by the parties are answered by those who were present in the area and
6 at the relevant time.
7 So therefore, we thank you very much in assisting the parties and
8 the Court which finally should result in decisions we'll have to take.
9 And I wish you a safe trip home again.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you then please lead the witness out
12 of the courtroom.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, I don't know whether you're going to ask
15 for a break in order to prepare the courtroom for the next witness.
16 MR. MUNDIS: I was going to ask for a break so that the --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Especially the voice distortion takes some time to be
19 After we have done with the document, I think we have four
20 documents, Madam Registrar, tendered in evidence. Would you please...
21 THE REGISTRAR: The 360-degree Quicktime movie will be P327P. And
22 the video, P3280P. The photograph, P3267; and the map marked by the
23 witness, D49.
24 JUDGE ORIE: They are then admitted into evidence.
25 We're now just a couple of minutes after half past 3.00. I
1 suggest that we have a break now so that the courtroom can be prepared for
2 the next witness. We'll resume at 4.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
9 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the microphone, there is no
11 JUDGE ORIE: I see there is transcript now.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, not only is there no transcript of
13 what Mr. Piletta-Zanin said, but there is no translation as well.
14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I think that the problem is the French is on
15 channel 4.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. IERACE: Yes, I'm hearing French on channel 4.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I have changed, yes.
19 THE INTERPRETER: 1, 2, 3; 1, 2, 3.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now I have the English on channel 4 again.
21 THE INTERPRETER: 1, 2, 3.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And channel 5, we have now. [French spoken].
23 This also has caused the words spoken by Mr. Piletta-Zanin not to
24 be translated. So would you please repeat what you said, Mr.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 You have drawn the attention, perhaps I can resume it. You asked
2 attention for the back pain suffered by General Galic.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [French spoken] Is there any
4 problem with the translation, Mr. Ierace, or you want me to do it in
5 English? If you have any problem with French, it would be my privilege of
6 doing so, so just tell me what you want.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my French is improving but it's not
8 yet anywhere near the high standard of my learned colleague.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And channel 4, do you have English or French now?
10 MR. IERACE: Again, I had French when my friend was speaking. It
11 was English just before then, with the "1, 2, 3."
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you please speak French now, Mr.
13 Piletta-Zanin, so that we can see whether there's any translation.
14 [French spoken].
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [French spoken].
16 JUDGE ORIE: [French spoken].
17 THE INTERPRETER: We have only French on channel 4.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And we have English on? [Interpretation] When I
19 speak French, I only hear my French on channel 5. When I speak French and
20 when I listen to channel 4, I hear English, the English interpretation.
21 [In English] So as far as I can see, we have now English on channel 4,
22 and French on channel 5.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] I once again hear French on channel
1 4. Well, as far as I'm concerned, I'm perfectly happy, but I do not know
2 what I can do.
3 [In English] Yes, now I hear English again on channel 4. So
4 please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in French, and we'll just listen
5 whether we have the translation on channel 4.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Does it work now?
7 I was saying, so that everybody can understand, that during the break, we
8 met with the General Galic, and he says that the pain is practically
9 unbearable. Therefore, it is absolutely necessary to organise a visit to
10 a doctor as quickly as possible. Tomorrow, if possible, because if the
11 medical authorities think it useful, perhaps General Galic could be helped
12 by some therapeutical means which will be better and which will enable him
13 to attend the hearing regularly, but we need the assistance of the
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will see that we get in touch with those
16 responsible for the medical treatment.
17 Perhaps if one of you could -- of the Defence team could try to
18 get in touch with OLAD right away. That's the best way to promote the
19 medical treatment, of course, if possible. You know that a lot of Dutch
20 citizens have to wait for a very long time until they can see a doctor.
21 So whatever will be possible will be best promoted by addressing the OLAD
23 May I just ask an additional question: For this afternoon,
24 General Galic could stay in the courtroom? It's not that urgent, without
25 denying the urgency and the severity?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for your question,
2 Mr. President. I don't want to give an answer for Mr. Galic but I believe
3 he is being very stoical about this and I think he can keep up this
4 afternoon unless there's a change, in which case he will tell us. He may
5 well have to leave. But perhaps somebody else would leave and call
6 competent people who could perhaps help, if you will allow us.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Someone else; who would you have in mind at this
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but could you address the OLAD people right
12 away? Perhaps that takes five minutes or...
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar tells me that she could try to get
15 in touch with one of the OLAD people so that you can have a very short
16 conference right away so that you can --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] From the inside of the
18 Chamber, of the courtroom?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, she can call from the inside of the courtroom,
20 and that perhaps this will cause your absence for five minutes so that you
21 can explain.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE ORIE: General Galic, apart from the measures we are trying
24 to take now, I'd just like to hear from you as well, whether you agree
25 with Mr. Piletta-Zanin that although you do not feel well, that you are
1 still able to continue this afternoon?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have already said that I can stay
3 here unless, of course, I feel very bad, and then I will say so. But you
4 need to understand one thing, that this pain moves from my spine down my
5 legs, and then back to my head, so that is my problem. I did undergo
6 treatment here. You know that at the time of my arrest, I was severely
7 injured, and for six months I could not move my right foot. I have three
8 injuries along my spine, the scanning established that. It was
9 established in the detention unit and it was established that I have a
10 herniated disk which could be treated if I gave-- did not do physical
11 work. But how can I do that if I cannot walk. I mean, it hurts. And then
12 a surgical intervention was suggested to me, and you remember this whole
13 discussion. I said that I would try to suffer this pain as long as I can
14 because it is in my interest to finish the trial as quickly and as soon as
15 possible. That is my objective. I will do my best.
16 But if it becomes too hard for me, then I will ask for the floor
17 without any fear, without any ill effect. I believe that I can follow the
18 proceedings, and that I'll be able to do so tomorrow. But it is quite
19 possible of course. I do not know why I am not knowledgeable about
20 things. Perhaps tomorrow morning I should be given an injection or
21 something in addition to the medicines that are administered every day.
22 Perhaps an injection would allay the pain somewhat for tomorrow.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you feel that you're -- that you cannot
24 follow the proceedings any more, as you told us already, you'd be on your
25 feet and tell us immediately. That's what I invite you to do if
1 necessary. And meanwhile, I think your counsel together with the OLAD see
2 that as soon as possible an appointment with a specialist will be made
3 when necessary.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: I do hear that it might be possible to be examined by
6 a doctor tomorrow in the afternoon presumably. I don't know whether this
7 will already be a specialist or that you will first be seen by the general
8 practitioner, but you'll then certainly know how to proceed.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: The OLAD will be in touch with the detention unit and
11 see whether this can be arranged even for tomorrow. If the appointment
12 could be made in the afternoon, could we expect you to be in the courtroom
13 in the morning or...
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you very much. We will then pay proper
16 attention to it. And I'm glad that I raised the issue today.
17 General Galic, we discussed the matter in open court, and since I
18 know that you are not very favourable of talking with everyone about these
19 kind of problems, there has been no one here. Would it be necessary to do
20 the whole thing of redacting or would you just accept the way we discussed
21 it as it is now. Redacting, I mean to change the transcript or that we
22 just accept as it is now the transcript. We didn't go in any detail, I
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, it can stay. There's -- I don't
25 want to be someone who is complicating the matters.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm much obliged to this attitude. Thank you.
2 Then, before we continue, I have one other issue I'd like to
3 discuss with the parties at this time. During the break, I saw a decision
4 of the Registry, a decision appointing a presiding officer to witness the
5 declaration of a witness in The Hague today. The Rule 92 bis is usually
6 applied when there's some difficulty in having the witnesses in this
7 courtroom. I wondered, since this witness seems to be in The Hague, what
8 actually was the specific reason not to hear this witness in this
9 courtroom, being the witness in The Hague, and I also would like to know
10 whether we could find some kind of a procedure that if there's any need of
11 cross-examining a witness, that we could at least use his or her presence
12 at this moment in The Hague. Because if the witness -- I don't know who
13 the witness is. I don't know whether the witness lives in the Netherlands
14 or in the former Yugoslavia or wherever. But I know for sure that if
15 there would be a request later on to cross-examine the witness for
16 specific reasons, then it would not be easy perhaps to get the witness
17 again in the Netherlands if the witness is not residing in the Netherlands
18 at this very moment.
19 So if you could please clarify this, Mr. Ierace. And Mr.
20 Piletta-Zanin, you would like to --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, this is just to say we do
22 not know who this witness is. We don't have any information, so we will
23 be listening with great interest. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace. I don't know whether it's a protected
25 witness. I've got no idea. So would you please be very careful since we
1 are dealing with it at this moment in open Court.
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will make some inquiries as to the
3 identity of the particular witness, but in the meantime I will say this:
4 During the pre-trial stage, the Prosecution was encouraged by the
5 Pre-Trial Chamber to have as many witnesses as possible dealt with by way
6 of the Rule 92 bis procedure. In other words, in the interests of saving
7 Court time. I have not previously understood that it was a prerequisite
8 to the use of Rule 92 bis that there be an impediment to the witness
9 giving evidence in the Trial Chamber. I had understood that a primary
10 purpose was to save time in the Trial Chamber, and that, I confess, has
11 been my guiding principle in selecting 92 bis witnesses.
12 I will give you more information when I clarify the identity of
13 the particular witness. Thank you, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not think that you misunderstood what was
15 said during the pre-trial proceedings, only as far as I'm aware of, very
16 often the procedure of 92 bis is used for witnesses that are not living
17 near to the seat of the Tribunal. And if there's any need to
18 cross-examine the witness on the basis of the statement given by the
19 witness, then of course it would be perhaps not very efficient to let the
20 witness return to a place far away from the seat of the Court, and perhaps
21 then we would even have to call the witness again if we would allow the
22 cross-examination of the witness upon the request of the Defence.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I say something about that: My
24 preference would have been that we decide which witnesses can give their
25 evidence by way of 92 bis before the 92 bis procedure is taken. I made
1 some inquiries, and the result of those inquiries was that it was
2 unfortunately necessary to go to this trouble to obtain the statement in
3 92 bis form before we could invite you, the Trial Chamber, to rule on
5 I agree it would have been far more sensible if we simply could
6 have handed up a copy of the statement and had a ruling on the basis of
7 the statement because, ultimately, if any of the 92 bis witnesses are
8 rejected by the Trial Chamber, there has been a considerable waste of time
9 by both the OTP and the Registry.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I have concentrated on the issue of
11 92 bis before as well, and I also found that it's the order, we'll find,
12 in the Rules and also in the Practice Directions is that it should be done
13 as it is done at this very moment. This leaves apart the possibility of
14 perhaps introducing this statement of this very witness a bit earlier so
15 that, if the witness is still in The Hague, that there might be -- that we
16 might give a judgment now on whether, if there's any need to cross-examine
17 the witness, that we can decide on the issue now before the witness has
18 returned to the place where the witness is residing.
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
21 think that the Defence -- it would have been helpful for the Defence if we
22 could have the name of the witness because that would have -- that would
23 be of assistance, particularly because, if I am to understand, that the
24 Chamber does appreciate precision.
25 Now, there is a problem, Mr. President, more important than the
1 identity of the witness that we at the moment have no idea of, which is
2 the principle, Mr. President. And I would like to just take a few moments
3 to say more about this.
4 On several occasions, we heard witnesses, and these witnesses,
5 when they were cross-examined by the Defence, they said things that were
6 unexpected but very useful for the Defence. And we could think of a
7 witness that, in front of his window, there was an HQ on the front line,
8 in front of his window. Or perhaps we could think of another witness who
9 -- who said that he was accompanied by a soldier when he was injured, and
10 we are talking about the young man who testified a few days ago who was 25
11 years old, or perhaps we could think of other witnesses who would then
12 tell us about important things after being questioned, and that there were
13 brigades or troops stationed near their place of residence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think what you're doing now is already entering
15 into a debate on whether 92 bis witnesses -- and as we all know that you
16 have filed your view on 92 bis witnesses at the Registry. Once the
17 Prosecution has given notice to you that they intended to use statements
18 of witnesses on the basis of 92 bis. We'll deal with that in a later
19 stage, and I would rather not have this debate at this very moment. The
20 only exception I'd like to make is that perhaps on the witness which,
21 apparently, is in The Hague at this very moment, that if there's any need
22 to cross-examine that witness, that perhaps we use -- we should use the
23 presence of the witness in The Hague.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that the occasion
25 is here. I think we should seize this opportunity, and the witness could
1 certainly come and testify, as I said a moment ago.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness will be presented as a
3 92 bis statement. Once the Chamber has read the statement before giving
4 its decision whether it accepts this evidence as a statement rather than a
5 viva voce testimony of the witness, we'll decide on whether we'll accept
6 the evidence, then the Defence can make an application showing good cause
7 why the witness still should be cross-examined by the Defence, and we'll
8 then take a decision on that. But I'll just try to speed up this for a
9 witness which turns out to be in The Hague at this very moment.
10 I would then like to proceed and to call the -- have the next
11 witness of the Prosecution called, Mr. Ierace.
12 Perhaps you could solve things out during the next break, and then
13 that we proceed now.
14 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The next witness is Witness E.
15 Before the witness is called, I should inform the Trial Chamber that the
16 video in respect of this incident has not redacted -- has not been
17 redacted at this stage, and therefore I seek that the showing of the video
18 be done in closed session. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Madam Registrar, everything is functioning
20 as it should function as far as the face and the voice alteration is
21 concerned? Then I see that the usher left the courtroom ready to bring in
22 witness E.
23 MR. IERACE: While the witness is coming in, perhaps at this stage
24 I could alert the Trial Chamber to a problem that I have become aware of.
25 I don't yet have a solution to the problem. The scheduled incidents to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the indictment are not in redacted form and never have been. That is
2 because the relevant witnesses have indicated their desire for protective
3 measures at a later point. The end result of that is that when I identify
4 the particular incident, potential allows for the identification of the
5 witness. Even the reference to the date would allow that. It's a
6 difficult issue. For that reason, from here on in, I propose to have the
7 witness give evidence of the date in written form. That will at least
8 assist. And once you, Mr. President, and Your Honours, and the Defence
9 have seen that date, it will be a relatively simple matter to identify
10 which of the incidents on the schedule the evidence relates to.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could proceed in a similar way as
12 with the name and the date of birth. So if you would prepare -- well,
13 perhaps you could do it right away. A similar sheet provided with a
14 number, and then show it to the witness, give a copy to the Court, give a
15 copy to the Defence, and then we'll ask her to read the date and indicate
16 to her that whenever we'll talk about the incident, that we are referring
17 to an incident of that date.
18 Another way would be that we ask her not to answer any question as
19 far as the date of the incident is concerned, but to ask her to write it
20 down on paper and then admit that document into evidence. Perhaps that
21 would be a more correct way of doing it.
22 Just one second.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Defence is ready?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, ready to answer,
1 Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In relation to the
4 proceedings, we have no objections to the witness writing every time. Of
5 course, no problem whatsoever.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would not have the witness to write
7 everything down. So we'll then proceed. But may I remind the parties
8 that they put off their microphones once they have put the questions to
9 the witness since the voice distortion might not function well if you
10 leave your microphones open.
11 Please, then, Mr. Usher, bring in the courtroom in the courtroom.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I will call you Miss E since protective measures are
16 taken in respect of you. So I'll not use your name. I'll you "Miss E"
17 during your presence in this courtroom.
18 First of all, welcome in this courtroom. Before you give
19 testimony in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you
20 to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,
21 and nothing but the truth. And the text of this solemn declaration will
22 be handed out to you now by the usher, and I invite you to make that
24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Miss E. Please be seated.
2 You have been called as a witness by the Prosecution, so the order
3 of your examination is that you'll first be examined by counsel for the
4 Prosecution. You'll then be examined by counsel for the Defence, and if
5 there are any additional questions to be put by the Bench we'll do so as
7 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
8 WITNESS: WITNESS E
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Examined by Mr. Ierace:
11 MR. IERACE: I ask that the witness be given Exhibit P3564.
12 Q. Are the details on the sheet of paper in front of you correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. IERACE: I seek to tender that exhibit as a confidential
16 JUDGE ORIE: P3654 is admitted into evidence under seal.
17 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, that contains the
18 witness's name and date of birth.
19 Q. Where were you living --
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like
21 to intervene on behalf of the French booth, complaining that they cannot
22 hear Mr. Ierace. I don't know whether that's channel 5, 4, or 3, but Mr.
23 Ierace cannot be heard by the booth.
24 MR. IERACE: I will speak up.
25 Q. Where were you living in 1992?
1 A. In Sarajevo.
2 Q. Did you continue to live in Sarajevo throughout the armed
4 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness at all. We are
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist the witness. I
7 see that the microphones are not in her direction.
8 The interpreters' booth complains that they cannot hear the
10 I'm informed that channel 7 could assist the interpreters' booth.
11 Could you please say a few words, Miss E, in order to test all the
12 technical stuff which is found in this courtroom. Could you just say a
13 few words, like "Dubra Dom."
14 Does this give a satisfactory result in the --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Not really. There is still very faint sound
16 from the witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you speak a bit louder, Miss E, would that --
18 could you try to just say a few words, like "Dubra Noc" or "Dubra Dom" a
19 bit louder so that the interpreters can hear you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can try.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that good enough for the interpreters?
22 THE INTERPRETER: No, Your Honour. Not really.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So we need, I'm afraid, the assistance of the
25 Is it just the English booth that has problems? [French spoken]
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please count from 1 to 10 in order to test
3 the system. I know for sure that you can.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour. There is interference, a lot of
6 interference in our microphones.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Where does the interference come from? Could the
8 technicians assist us?
9 We still have to wait for a second since everything will be
11 Could you please repeat your counting from 1 to 10. I know that
12 it's repetitious, but...
13 Could you please do it again so that we can test the system.
14 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
15 THE INTERPRETER: We can hear the witness, but there is still a
16 lot of interference. On the other channel, there is no interference but
17 we cannot hear the witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: There still seems to be a lot of technical problems.
19 I apologise for these technical difficulties.
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps I could avail myself
22 of this opportunity just to speak for the French booth. And what they
23 wanted is Mr. Ierace to come closer to the microphone when he speaks so
24 that we don't have other problems.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the problem we have with Mr. Ierace, but
1 our main problem at this moment is -- is it of any use to retest the
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm informed that at this very moment, the
5 technicians cannot achieve a better result as it is now. May I invite the
6 English booth to do their utmost best and to let me know immediately if we
7 cannot proceed any more. And I apologise already for the unpleasant
8 circumstances you have to work under.
9 THE INTERPRETER: We shall do what we can.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please let me know if it really is impossible
11 to continue.
12 The English booth will do their utmost best to translate as good
13 as they can.
14 Mr. Ierace, would you please proceed, and perhaps if we would all
15 keep in mind that it's not an easy task at this moment for the
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not know how much --
20 perhaps the French transcript can be placed on the computer, on the
21 monitors in the English booth which could perhaps help them to work from
22 the French transcript.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I've no idea whether this would be of any help, but
24 if the booth would follow the suggestion, being supported by the
25 transcript. But I'm afraid it's just the other way around, that you're
1 not the source of the transcript, of course you can't do with. Let's try
2 to proceed and see where we cannot continue any more.
3 Mr. Ierace.
4 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
5 Q. Did you continue to live in Sarajevo throughout the conflict?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In what part of Sarajevo were you living in 1993?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please turn off your microphone whenever
9 you are waiting for the answer, Mr. Ierace.
10 A. In the [redacted].
11 Q. All right. Did you also live there, that is, in the old part of
12 the town -- withdraw that.
13 You've mentioned a street. In which area of Sarajevo did you
14 live? Was that also Sedrenik?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. Did you also live there in 1992 and 1994 and 1995?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be given a sheet of paper.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Usher.
20 Yes, please proceed.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. Was there an incident when you were at home and when you were
24 A. Yes, there was.
25 Q. Would you please write on the piece of paper in front of you the
1 date that you were shot.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the colour of the marker is not of major
3 importance at this moment.
4 A. [Marks]
5 MR. IERACE: Might I please have access to that piece of paper.
6 Mr. President, I seek to tender that as a confidential exhibit. I
7 think it would be P3654E, capital E, that is.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would you please show it to the Defence.
10 I think since we deal with these kind of documents in the early
11 stages, we'll admit it into evidence right away confidentially. That's
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the reference to the street
15 name might be redacted as well. That's page 47, line 16.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll ask Madam Registrar to prepare the decision
17 to redact that part of the statement.
18 MR. IERACE:
19 Q. Now, at that time, having regard to your birth date, you were a
20 child. Is that correct? But I do not want to know your exact age.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What was the weather like on that day?
23 A. It was sunny.
24 Q. What were you wearing?
25 A. Dark trousers and a blue jacket.
1 Q. At some stage in the morning, did you go outside to play?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Whereabouts did you play? Was it in the front yard, the back
4 yard, or somewhere else?
5 A. Beneath the window of the house.
6 Q. Was that in the front yard?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. After a while, were you joined by another child who played with
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I do not want to know his name. Was he of a similar age to you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. For how long did you play with him?
14 A. Half an hour.
15 Q. Did he then leave?
16 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nods.
17 MR. IERACE: All right. Just for the benefit of the transcript
18 and what occurred, I think the witness also answer "yes," so there may be
19 some further problems in hearing the witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please, Miss E, talk as loud as possible
21 since the interpreters have some difficulties in hearing you. Again, I
22 think the answer to the last question, when Mr. Ierace asked you, "Did he
23 then leave?" Was "Yes." Is that true?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
1 MR. IERACE:
2 Q. How long after the boy left -- withdraw that. Were you and he
3 both playing in the front yard for all of the period that he was with you?
4 A. I didn't understand the question.
5 Q. You've told us that you were joined by another child, and that you
6 and he played for about half an hour. Did you both play in the front yard
7 for all of that half hour?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. After he left, what did you do?
10 A. I went on playing by myself.
11 Q. After that, at some stage, did you go near the wall in front of
12 your house and do something with the flowers in the garden?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. IERACE:
17 Q. Did something happen to you while you were near the wall in front
18 of your house?
19 A. Yes, I was hit.
20 Q. When you say you were hit, what exactly do you mean?
21 A. Well, I don't think anyone struck me with a stone. I was wounded
22 from the side.
23 Q. It's important that you tell us exactly what happened. When you
24 say you were hit, you were hit with what? What were you hit with?
25 A. A sniper bullet.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. All right. At that instant when you were hit, what position were
2 you in? Were you standing up or bending over or kneeling or what?
3 A. I was kneeling.
4 Q. Where were you facing as you were kneeling when you were hit?
5 A. My back was more or less to the wall, and my face towards a spikey
7 Q. Whereabouts -- withdraw that.
8 Whereabouts were you shot?
9 A. In the area of my shoulder blade.
10 Q. Did the bullet stay in your body or did it pass through your
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please turn off your microphone when
13 listening to the answer, please. Yes.
14 Please proceed, Miss E.
15 A. Yes, the bullet went through my body and ended up in the wall.
16 MR. IERACE:
17 Q. Would you please, in a moment, slowly stand up and turn around and
18 when I ask you to, point to where the bullet entered your body, and then,
19 when I ask you to, point to where the bullet left your body.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I assume that if the witness does that
21 slowly, the face distortion can be maintained.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I just am looking to the technical booth, that
23 they are prepared that the witness will stand up slowly.
24 MR. IERACE: All right.
25 Q. Would you please, now, turn around and point to where the bullet
1 entered your body, if you can reach that point with the fingers of -- one
2 of your fingers.
3 A. [Indicates].
4 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates the back of the right shoulder.
5 Q. Could you now point to the position where the bullet left your
7 A. [Indicates].
8 MR. IERACE: Witness points to the same area but further down.
9 Thank you.
10 Q. Would you please now sit down.
11 Were you able to accurately indicate those positions, or were you
12 constrained by the difficulty in touching that part of your body with your
14 A. Well, because I was a small child, as I have already said, the
15 scars moved, I suppose, as my body grew so I cannot reach the exact spot.
16 Q. All right. Now what did you do after you were shot?
17 A. I stood up and went to the house, sat on the threshold, and I
18 called out to my mother and said that I had been hit.
19 Q. Did you receive some treatment from your aunt?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was your aunt a nurse?
22 A. She is.
23 Q. Were you then taken to a hospital?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you taken from the house with the assistance of a neighbour?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who else took you from the house? And please, do not use names.
3 A. A friend whom I mentioned, who played with me. There was his
4 father and another neighbour, and then we went to a third person who put
5 me in his car and drove me away.
6 Q. Did something happen as you were being driven away?
7 A. Yes. Fire was opened on the car.
8 Q. All right. Now, coming back to your position at the time that you
9 were shot, you've told us that your back was facing towards a particular
10 place. What was the name of that place that your back was facing towards?
11 A. Do you mean the street?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have an objection. This is
14 an intrusive question because it is quite contrary to what the witness
15 said. I will quote line 51.12, where the witness said this: "More or
16 less to the wall." [No interpretation].
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was not Mr. Ierace; it was
19 quite the opposite. 51.12.
20 MR. IERACE: I understand the objection, Mr. President. And I
21 withdraw the question.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MR. IERACE:
24 Q. You told us that when you were shot, I think you said that you
25 were kneeling or squatting.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].
2 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].
3 MR. IERACE:
4 Q. As you were kneeling or squatting, which direction were you
5 facing? Were you facing towards the house, to the side of the house, or
6 away from the house?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please turn off the microphone. Yes, Mr.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The same objection. The
10 witness has already answered this question clearly, and the Prosecutor is
11 saying opposite. The witness has already said that she had her back to
12 the wall.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The answer was that the back was more or less to the
14 wall, so I would allow some questions which will not deny the answer
15 given, that it was more or less to the wall. Especially when someone is
16 kneeling, it might not be clear, right on.
17 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'll approach it a different way.
19 Excuse me, Mr. President.
20 Q. You mentioned, in relation to your position, a spiky rock. What
21 did you mean by that?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Does Mr. Ierace could
24 quote the line so that we can follow him in the transcript, please [as
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's also in my recollection that the rock was
2 mentioned. But, Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, it's the same page and line
4 reference that my learned colleague gave. It's page 51, at line 10 is the
5 question: "Where were you facing as you were kneeling when you were hit?"
6 Answer: "My back was more or less to the wall, and my face towards a
7 spiky rock."
8 Q. What do you mean by "a spiky rock"?
9 A. Probably what I meant was probably that's where the bullet had
10 come from.
11 Q. What is the name of that place?
12 A. You mean where the bullet came from?
13 Q. Yes, where you say the bullet came from.
14 A. It's called Spicasta Stijena, sharp rock feature, or a spiky rock.
15 Q. All right. Is that -- I think that's sometimes known as
16 Sharpstone in English. Is that correct?
17 A. I don't know that.
18 Q. All right.
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown two
20 photographs which are Exhibit P3273.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Usher, could you assist Mr. Ierace in
22 giving the photographs to the witness.
23 How about the ELMO and protective measures?
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there are no signatures or other --
25 certainly no signatures on the photographs. As to the appearance of the
1 various features in the photographs -- excuse me.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MR. IERACE: I would ask that the photographs not be disclosed
4 publicly. I don't know if it's possible for the images on the ELMO not to
5 be broadcast.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd just wait for one second.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nothing that's on the ELMO will be shown to the
9 outside world until I give further orders that they can resume the normal
10 manipulation of the pictures.
11 You may put the picture on the ELMO, or just in front of the
12 witness, but I think on the ELMO would be better.
13 Mr. Usher, would you please turn the ELMO in the direction of the
14 witness so that she can see what's on the ELMO, and please put the...
15 Yes, please put it on the ELMO. Could you please guide the usher
16 in what photograph should be first put on the ELMO, Mr. Ierace. Would
17 that be the photograph with the number 4288 at the end, which is marked
18 with a letter B?
19 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
22 Q. Did you make a statement to an investigator from the Prosecutor's
23 office on the 26th of September -- excuse me -- 2001?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. At the time you made the statement, were you shown the photograph
1 which is on the screen on your -- withdraw that. The photograph which is
2 on your right under the mirror?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I think you have two photographs in front of you; one shows a
5 house, and the other shows a yard. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Now, on the photograph which shows the house, did you
8 take a black pen and put some marks on it?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Whose house is that?
11 A. My parents' house, my house.
12 Q. You placed some marks over a balcony and a room underneath the
13 balcony. Was the balcony and the room underneath it there on the day that
14 you were shot?
15 A. No, they weren't. This was done later. This was built later.
16 Q. You said earlier that just before you were shot, you had been
17 playing. Can you see in this photograph the area where you had been
19 A. You mean to show you on the ELMO?
20 Q. Does the photograph show you the area where you were playing?
21 A. Yes, it does.
22 Q. Where was that area in relation to the room beneath the balcony?
23 A. [indicates].
24 Q. I think you're pointing to an area just to the left of the room as
25 one looks at the photograph. Is that correct? Is that where you were
2 A. Not quite. Not quite left of the room. The room is inside, but
3 it is just as you go in from the entrance door.
4 Q. Do you mean by that that you were playing in the area which, in
5 the photograph, has a room on it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Will you now please look at the other photograph, that
8 is, the one that ends with the number 4289. At the time that you made
9 your statement in September 2001, did you also place some marks on this
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. What does the photograph show?
13 A. The actual place from where the shot was fired.
14 Q. All right. But leaving aside the marks that you placed on the
15 photograph, and looking at the bottom of the photograph, you can see some
16 grass and a tree. Whereabouts was that grass and the tree?
17 A. They were in the same place, but it was much smaller.
18 Q. You mean the same place as the yard which appears in the first
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is this, in fact, a photograph looking in the other direction,
22 that is, away from the house?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you see in this photograph anywhere the area that you earlier
25 referred to as a spiky rock?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you indicate that area with an arrow when you put some marks
3 on this photograph?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. The tree which is growing in the grass, was that as big on the day
6 that you were shot?
7 A. No, it was smaller.
8 Q. Does the line in red ink that you drew through the tree indicate
9 its approximate height at the time that you were shot?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Does the red line that is drawn through the other tree indicate
12 its approximate height, as well, on the day that you were shot?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. This is
16 for the transcript, for the record. There are several red lines, and I
17 believe Mr. Ierace has just spoken about another red line. So it seems
18 that it would be good enough for the record to say which red line exactly
19 we're talking about.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think the first question was about the tree growing
21 in the grass. That explains one line. And then the next question was
22 about the red line that is drawn through the other tree, so I do not see
23 what misunderstanding there could be as a matter of fact.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE:
1 Q. So when you were shot and you were kneeling, were you facing
2 towards the spiky rock?
3 A. Yes, I was.
4 Q. So you had your back to the house?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe this is the same
7 objection as a moment ago. I'll going to rephrase it. The back was to
8 the house more or less --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I have had time to rethink it. If
10 you would been on your knees kneeling, then it very often happens that the
11 back is in a horizontal position, which could be at one end at the wall,
12 but at another end be somewhere else. If the witness says more or less
13 the back was to the wall, that doesn't mean that the back of a person
14 kneeling is exclusively in one direction. So I deny your objection.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. IERACE:
17 Q. Can you be more precise as to the position you were in at the
18 instant that you were shot?
19 A. I can repeat: I was -- my back was facing the wall.
20 Q. I appreciate that, but can you tell us in what position your body
21 was in terms of standing or kneeling or squatting or whatever.
22 A. I was kneeling.
23 Q. All right. Why were you kneeling?
24 A. Because I was playing with the flowers.
25 Q. All right. Now, do you know where the bullet went after it left
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 your body?
2 A. Yes, it hit the wall. It ended in the wall.
3 Q. Did it leave a mark in the wall?
4 A. Yes, yes, the bullet remained in the wall.
5 Q. All right. Was there anything near you when you were kneeling
6 when you were shot? In other words, any part of the building or part --
7 or steps or anything of that nature?
8 A. There were steps.
9 Q. Where did the steps lead to?
10 A. They were going by the house, so by the place where I was, going
11 by the house, and then they were going to the street, towards the street.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage, if it's convenient, I'd
13 like the video to be shown. As I indicated earlier, it has not yet been
14 redacted, and therefore it would be appropriate for it to be shown in
15 closed session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then go into closed session, and Madam
17 Registrar will tell us whenever we are in closed session.
18 [Closed session]
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are now in open session again. May I have a
8 confirmation that the face and voice distortion is still -- yes. I see
9 that it is.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE:
12 Q. Did you recognise yourself in the video that you just watched?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. The investigator asked you to point out a number of things. When
15 you pointed them out, were you doing so truthfully and to the best of your
17 A. Yes, approximately. Yes, according to my recollection, the way I
18 remember it.
19 Q. What were you kneeling on at the time you were shot? Was it dirt
20 or something else?
21 A. Steps. There were steps.
22 Q. At some stage, although we don't see it on the video, did you see
23 the investigator appear to measure a distance from where you had told him
24 you were kneeling at the time that you were shot?
25 A. Yes. They measured, but I don't know what they were measuring.
1 Q. Now, on other days, days before this happened, had you seen people
2 walking through that yard where you were playing?
3 A. Yes, I was watching it right from the beginning of 1992 until the
4 end of the war.
5 Q. Did you sometimes see soldiers go through that yard?
6 A. Yes, but not in an organised manner, not in any way convoys. They
7 were just walking individually.
8 Q. Had you seen anyone travel through that yard on the morning that
9 you were shot before you were shot?
10 A. Yes. Before I went out, that's when I saw it. Yes.
11 Q. What did you see?
12 A. I saw civilians, children, everybody passed through there.
13 Q. On the morning before you went out to play, you said that you saw
14 something. Did you see any people passing through the yard before you
15 went out to play that morning?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who did you see that morning before you went out to play passing
18 through the yard?
19 A. There may have been a couple of soldiers.
20 Q. Did anyone pass through the yard while you were outside playing?
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. How long were you playing for before you were shot approximately?
23 A. Perhaps an hour, hour and a half, maybe two. But certainly an
24 hour and a half.
25 Q. Had you realised before that day that it was possible to see the
1 spiky rock from that yard?
2 A. Yes, but only a small portion of it.
3 Q. Had you ever been shot at before that day while you were in that
4 same yard?
5 A. Not on that location.
6 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown again Exhibit P3273.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if before we do so, this would be a
8 suitable moment to have our next break, then perhaps we show the photo to
9 the witness after the break.
10 Miss E, we'll have a break for 20 minutes. We'll then resume, and
11 I hope we'll have not the same technical problems as we had before for
12 which I apologise. It's drawing our attention on things that are not the
13 most important things in this courtroom.
14 Mr. Ierace, may I invite you to inform the Court after the break
15 about the issue we raised just at the beginning of this session about the
16 92 bis.
17 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
19 We'll then have a break until 10 minutes to 6.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Before resuming, Mr. Ierace, I would like to make a
23 remark first, and that's a remark concerning the interpretation. We
24 seriously have considered, in order to assist the interpreters, to go into
25 closed session, which would solve their problem. Finally, we decided not
1 to do so. We have great admiration for the way the interpreters, under
2 these difficult circumstances, are performing their task. I would like to
3 stress that and to emphasise that.
4 On the other hand, as we all know, the public character of the
5 trial is of such importance that it is prevailing in our view. And
6 therefore, with full understanding from the difficulties the interpreters
7 are facing at this moment and with great admiration with how they are
8 performing their task, we nevertheless decided we would stay in open
10 Then perhaps before I give an opportunity to you, Mr. Ierace, to
11 make any remarks.
12 General Galic, I'm informed that the detention unit is, at this
13 moment, trying to make arrangements for tomorrow in the afternoon. If
14 that would not be possible, then it might Thursday morning, but everyone
15 is working on it.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you please briefly inform the
18 Chamber. And in order to avoid whatever misunderstanding, this Chamber is
19 not of the view that 92 bis witnesses could not be heard in The Hague, but
20 the Chamber is of the opinion that if there would be any need for
21 cross-examination of the witness, then we would better use the presence of
22 the witness. That's the only reason why I made the remark. Please make
23 whatever observations you'd like to make in this respect.
24 MR. IERACE: I understand that that is the issue, Mr. President.
25 I've made some inquiries. There were two witnesses travelling to The
1 Hague this week in order to go through the 92 bis procedure. The first of
2 those was Oystein Strand who was an officer of the Royal Norwegian Air
3 Force. He arrived yesterday and is due to leave tonight. It's too late
4 for us to do anything in relation to him, as I understand it. In fact, I
5 have been recently told that he has left.
6 The second witness, Mr. Karel Lindr from the Czeck Republic is due
7 to arrive tomorrow at 3.00, and we are making efforts to try to change the
8 travel arrangements so that he comes at a later date. The reason is, we
9 already have sufficient witnesses this week to give evidence in The Hague
10 from Sarajevo, and we are working under some difficulty because of Bajram
11 to finish them so that they can return to Sarajevo by Friday morning at
12 the very latest.
13 So, Mr. President, that's why we are attempting to forestall
14 the arrival of Mr. Lindr so that we can take advantage of the Trial
15 Chamber's proposal at a later date.
16 Mr. President, two other matters, the first is related to that
17 issue: If it transpires that General Galic receives medical treatment on
18 Thursday morning, and if it also transpires that we will not be sitting
19 for all or a part of Thursday morning, I would be grateful it we could
20 have some forewarning of that. Again, so as to assist the Sarajevoian
21 witnesses to return in time for Bajram. If it transpires that one of
22 those witnesses is in the witness box, but has not finished their
23 testimony, then I would propose that subject to the requirements of the
24 Victims and Witness Unit, we take all possible to allow that witness to
25 return to Sarajevo, and then come back at a later date to finish their
2 The third matter, Mr. President, just very briefly, in relation to
3 the software for your computers so that you can view the 360-degree
4 photographs, steps have been taken to make that software available. I'm
5 told that the most efficient way of doing it is to load it directly on to
6 your computers, and that would be done by technicians of the OTP. I
7 anticipate that that can probably be done by Thursday afternoon. Thank
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for
12 giving me the floor. So we see that the problem is not a simple one; it
13 is a double problem, that is two witnesses and not one witness affected by
14 92 bis, and it surprises us all the more so because these persons are
15 people who were on UN mission there, and who are therefore of major
16 importance for the Defence. In a nutshell, the Defence, in principle,
17 does not accept that such statements be done in a manner prescribed by 92
18 bis, and we most emphatically oppose such procedure. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was aware from your submissions that you are
20 opposing mainly the 92 bis. One of the issues I had, first of all,
21 whenever Mr. Lindr come, perhaps a later date, could there be some kind
22 of arrangement that the Defence is informed prior to giving a statement
23 outside this courtroom and immediately provided with a statement so that
24 if, for example, he would stay for another half a day or a day, that if
25 good cause is shown why he should be cross-examined, that we could give a
1 decision right away and then perhaps call Mr. Lindr at that very moment.
2 One of the things, at least that is of some consolation to me, is that
3 both witnesses are able to travel on their own and not need the assistance
4 of the Victims and Witnesses Unit. At least they are not escorted by the
5 Registry to and from The Hague.
6 There's another issue I'd like to draw the attention to from the
7 Defence. If it would turn out that General Galic would be examined
8 physically on Thursday morning, would the Defence consider -- of course,
9 dependent on where we are with the witness that is examined at that very
10 moment, whether we could finish or not even without the presence of
11 General Galic, and if there would come a point where the Defence would
12 say, well, this is specifically a point on which we would have to consult
13 our client, would you please consider it?
14 Perhaps it might not be necessary at all if it could be dealt with
15 on Wednesday in the afternoon, there would be no problem at all. But if,
16 for example, you would have half an hour remaining for one of the
17 witnesses or -- would you please consider what to do under these
18 circumstances if it would turn out to be necessary to have General Galic
19 be examined on Thursday morning. I will not in whatever way infringe upon
20 any right to be present during the trial. So it's not urging you, but
21 just to consider it, depending on the circumstances.
22 Then I see you nodding, so I...
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I believe, Mr. President,
24 we shall perhaps try to see with what you have told us, we shall try to
25 inform the Chamber as soon as possible. I believe that in principle,
1 there will be no difficulty because it could be obviously a very short
2 interruption. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Mr. Ierace.
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have in mind that we should be able
6 to stick to the seven-day rule in relation to Mr. Lindr. In relation to
7 his statements, I informed the Defence in writing late last year that we
8 intended to seek to convey the evidence of Mr. Lindr and also Mr. Strand
9 by way of 92 bis, so I'm sure that's not a surprise to my friend. And the
10 statements have also already been served, but, of course, we will treat
11 them in the usual fashion so there will be seven days' notice of when that
12 will be here. Excuse me, Mr. President.
13 I've just been informed that it's not possible at this late stage
14 to cancel Mr. Lindr's travel arrangements. We have attempted in the last
15 hour to do that so that becomes academic.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So we will see when he returns, if there's good cause
17 shown that he should be cross-examined, he'll have to return. We'll
18 decide on that. If on Thursday morning we have any extra time, I
19 indicated to you before that an oral hearing, I think it was especially
20 the 92 bis, could take place at any suitable moment when there are no
21 witnesses. So would you please, as I asked you before, be prepared to
22 have oral arguments on the 92 bis issue, and I think it would be proper to
23 provide the Chamber, then, with the 92 bis statements that you intend to
24 use in Court because several of the criteria of 92 bis require the Chamber
25 to have a look in the statements as such.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Ms. Pilipovic.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence
3 apologises in advance for what I'm about to say, but bearing in mind the
4 duration of this case, as the lead counsel, I have asked to leave on
5 Thursday morning, and I have been authorised to travel. On Thursday, if
6 there are any witnesses, my distinguished co-counsel will be here, and
7 then the trial will go on as it has started. But I would like to voice my
8 wish to -- for us to be both present during the argument about Rule 92
9 bis. I thought I would notify you at the end of today, because I should
10 be leaving on Thursday morning. Now I understand that the argument about
11 92 bis could be on Thursday, and I would dearly like, if possible, to
12 schedule it for some other day when both Mr. Piletta-Zanin and I are here.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll keep that in mind, and we'll give full
14 consideration to the wish you just expressed. If you would come up with
15 any suggestion how to use our time then on Thursday as good as we can, I
16 gave you to consider, even to continue, even when General Galic would not
17 be present, although I'm hesitant to do so. But just consider what you
18 could do in order not to waste any time. I think that's what we all try
19 to do in this courtroom, and I'm really convinced that you'll assist us as
20 good as you can.
21 Yes, Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the 92 bis statements are taken in the
23 Bosnian language. We are taking steps to obtain translations. In the
24 most part, the original statement will suffice, but in a few cases where
25 there is some additional information, I at least anticipate that I will
1 have an informal translation of at least those additional parts
2 available --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's wise, Mr. Ierace, since Ms. Pilipovic
4 will not be present and would like to attend the oral argument, and since
5 you are not fully prepared yet as far as the translation is concerned that
6 we just take our time and do it somewhere next week or the week afterwards
7 in order not to fall into any sloppy performance of what we have to do in
8 this courtroom.
9 MR. IERACE: In any event, Mr. President, I anticipate that the
10 witnesses we have lined up will take us to Thursday afternoon at this
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps we use our time in that way.
13 Ms. Pilipovic, anything to add?
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think we then could resume the examination of
16 Witness E.
17 Mr. Usher, could you please bring the witness into the courtroom.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will take the witness to the
19 360-degree photograph. And for the same reason, may that photograph not
20 be displayed publicly.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We did not give any order in respect of any
22 pictures of -- put on the ELMO to be broadcasted to the outside world.
23 Could I ask the assistance of the technical booth that the computer
24 evidence which will now be shown by the case manager of the Prosecution
25 will not be broadcasted out of this courtroom.
1 Yes. This being the case, Mr. Ierace, when the witness is brought
2 in, you may proceed.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. I have
4 to notify the Chamber that we have just talked with General Galic and he
5 says that he would like to be present in the courtroom at all times when
6 the witness testimonies go on. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We have full respect for this position taken by
8 General Galic. So we'll not continue in his absence.
9 Miss E, you had to wait even some 20 more minutes since we had not
10 only technical problems, but also some legal technical issues we had to
11 discuss. Please be seated. And Mr. Ierace will now resume the
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the 360-degree photograph
14 be displayed. As always, I think the best picture is on the "computer
15 evidence" button.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. IERACE:
18 Q. Do you recognise the view which appears on your monitor at the
20 A. I have nothing before me. It's okay. It's all right now.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question was whether you recognised what
22 you see on the screen at this moment.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
24 MR. IERACE:
25 Q. Does that appear to be a view of the yard in front of your house?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. And I think we can also see another house which has a white wall
3 in front of that yard. Is that correct? In front of your front yard?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. IERACE: Please manoeuvre the picture to the right slowly.
6 Pause for a moment.
7 Q. Do we see now the doorway and the door of the addition to the
8 front of your house?
9 A. We do.
10 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the picture.
11 Please pause.
12 Q. Do we now see the wall of the house, that is, it is now an
13 internal wall of the addition?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. Do you see on the wall of the house the yellow paint marks that
16 were made by the investigator, as seen on the video?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The yellow circle indicates the approximate position that the
19 bullet hit the wall. Is that correct?
20 A. It is.
21 Q. The yellow line underneath it indicates the height of the steps.
22 Is that correct?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. And the yellow line at the bottom indicates the ground level on
25 the day that you were shot. Is that correct?
1 A. It is.
2 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the photograph to the right.
3 Please pause.
4 Q. Now, when people travelled through your yard, did they come from
5 the view that we see on the screen at the moment, which is towards the
6 left from the doorway of the addition?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. IERACE: Please continue to pan the photograph.
9 Please pause.
10 Q. I think we are now back where we started; that is, looking at the
11 front yard from the doorway of the addition. Having regard to the
12 photographs that you have already seen in this courtroom, do we see,
13 between the roofs of the two houses, towards the centre of the photograph,
14 the area known as - and please pardon my pronunciation - Spicasta Stijena?
15 A. Yes, I can see it.
16 Q. All right.
17 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the photograph could be zoomed in on that
19 Q. Do we now see that area zoomed in?
20 A. Yes, I see it.
21 Q. At the time that -- on the date that you were shot, the armed
22 conflict was taking place in Sarajevo. Is that correct?
23 A. No, there was no conflict.
24 Q. I'm not so much speaking about that particular day, but that was
25 one of the years during which there was fighting around Sarajevo. Is that
2 A. That it is, yes.
3 Q. Spicasta Stijena appears to be, from the photograph, a ridge at
4 least. On which side of the confrontation line was the ridge, that is,
5 the very top of the ridge that one can see in the photograph?
6 A. I don't understand what you mean.
7 Q. Do you understand that the two armies, the two principal armies
8 that were involved in the conflict were the army for the Bosnian
9 government --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must object
12 because once he speaks of the two chief armies, and we know there were
13 several, and this is a purely subjective opinion that there were two
14 principal armies.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, not once in the now months of evidence
19 has the Defence challenged the evidence of a very large number of
20 witnesses to the effect that there were two principal armies involved.
21 Not once has that been done, even though it's required, if this is the
22 position of the Defence if they do so, by Rule 90. I am surprised to hear
23 that, against that background, it is still an issue, particularly when one
24 considers the content of the Defence pre-trial brief which is precisely to
25 the same effect.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please respond to that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It is
3 quite true that, in general, we admit that there were two more important
4 armies, and yet there are times -- there were times when the Croat forces
5 were more better structured than the Bosnian forces, generally speaking,
6 and to say simply which army or which armies, that is all why it can be
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is my recollection that there has been a
9 considerable number of questions put to witnesses in order to find out
10 where the confrontation lines were, but there was no question about
11 whether there were three armies or four or five or six at the
12 confrontation line. Is there any specific reason -- I mean, also it might
13 not be that difficult to rephrase the question. And I could even order
14 the Prosecution to do so. And I'm quite willing to do it, but on the
15 other hand, of course, it comes into my mind what actually is at this
16 moment the relevance of I would say importing a third, fourth, or fifth
17 party to this question?
18 But perhaps, Mr. Ierace, since I do not see that Mr. Piletta-Zanin
19 is giving -- apart from that, I must say that, during the last couple of
20 days, a third party has been introduced in the objections one or two
21 times. So if you could rephrase the question, and if Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
22 sustaining the objection, would consider next time the importance of his
23 objection. Please proceed.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in fact, if my friend checks my
25 question at page 76, line 7, he will see that the wording was: "The two
1 principal armies." I therefore fail to understand the objection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you still persist by your
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must say yes,
5 but to say yes, I must discover their position. If you authorise me to do
6 so, I will do that. For instance -- may I continue?
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think we are wasting a lot of time on an issue
8 which could be easily solved without a lot of explanations. I'll put one
9 or two questions to the witness at this very moment.
10 Miss E, you know sometimes there are some legal technical issues
11 as well. You have referred to the rock you mentioned before. Do you know
12 if this rock was under the control of an army at the time of the incident?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what army that was or how you would
15 refer to that army.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably the army of the Republika
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
19 MR. IERACE:
20 Q. You told us earlier that when you were being driven to hospital,
21 that the car came under fire. Was the car actually hit by any bullets?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Which part of the car?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Microphone, please.
25 A. The back of the car was hit.
1 MR. IERACE:
2 Q. At the time that the car was hit, how long had it been moving
4 A. Under a minute.
5 Q. At the time that the car was hit, if you had turned around and
6 looked out the rear window, would it have been possible to see Spicasta
8 A. Yes. And very clearly.
9 Q. During the armed conflict, did any shells land in the vicinity of
10 your house?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In the year 1993, did any shells land in the vicinity of your
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. During 1993 did any shells hit your house?
16 A. Yes, they did.
17 Q. Approximately how many times during the conflict was your house
19 A. Three times, three or four times.
20 Q. How many times -- withdraw that. When was the first time that a
21 shell hit your house?
22 A. In early 1993.
23 Q. Was it hit again in 1993?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How many times?
1 A. In 1993, twice.
2 Q. Was your father in the army during the armed conflict?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was your mother in the army?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you have any brothers or sisters?
7 A. Yes, a sister.
8 Q. Was she in the army?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Was there any military equipment in your house during the armed
12 A. No.
13 Q. On the day, indeed at the time that you were shot, was there
14 anyone else at all in the yard apart from yourself?
15 A. In the yard, no.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown
17 Exhibit P1025.
18 Mr. President, that document has the witness's signature on it, I
19 anticipate. So perhaps --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if it's not necessary to put it on the ELMO,
21 we would rather leave it at this moment, although there is still the order
22 that nothing from the ELMO and also from the computer evidence will be --
23 MR. IERACE: I don't think it's necessary, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
25 MR. IERACE:
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Do you recognise the document in front of you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that a medical report in relation to the treatment that you
4 received as a result of being shot?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might that be returned, and I ask the
7 witness be shown Exhibit P3243.
8 I don't require that to be placed on the ELMO either,
9 Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, it has been protected, the document,
11 as well, if it would finally end up on the ELMO. Will there be any other
12 documents to be tendered because we could then put it on the ELMO since it
13 has been prepared for not showing the identity of the witness.
14 MR. IERACE: This is the last document. I don't require it to be
15 put on the ELMO, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we rather not do it at this moment.
17 Mr. Usher, would you please give it to the witness and not put it
18 on the ELMO.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
20 MR. IERACE:
21 Q. Did you make a statement to the investigators in June 2001, that
22 is, last year?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At the time that you made your statement, did you place some marks
25 with a red pen on a map?
1 A. I did.
2 Q. Did you then sign the map?
3 A. I did.
4 Q. Is it in front of you now?
5 A. It is.
6 Q. Did you place a cross on the map to indicate approximately the
7 position of your house?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you place some crossed lines on the map to indicate the
10 approximate position of Spicasta Stijena?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you place the number 2 in a circle alongside that position?
13 A. I did.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that completes examination-in-chief.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
16 Before I'll ask the Defence whether they are prepared for the
17 cross-examination of the witness, I'd like to have one intermediary
18 question at this very moment.
19 Miss E, you told you this Spicasta Stijena was probably under the
20 control of the army of Republika Srpska. You said "probably." What made
21 you believe that it was probably under the control of the army of the
22 Republika Srpska? Could you tell us?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably because it isn't very far
24 from the house to the Spicasta Stijena, it is easy to make this
25 conclusion. When provocation start, there would be shouting, there would
1 be swearing, cursing.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean that you could hear from your house
3 shouting from that specific place?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And how could you identify who was shouting, or could
6 you tell us the words that were shouted?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would be swear words mostly.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And how could you know exactly against whom these
9 words were? Could you just give us one or two examples, then? It might
10 be easier to understand for you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. For instance, during the -- if
12 it was raining, many of them -- many people were using the rain water for
13 water. So I'm sorry for the words that I'm going to use, so what they
14 would say is balijas, trying and catch the rain. You will need it to wash
15 your ass."
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's quite clear. Thank you very much.
17 Ms. Pilipovic, or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the Defence ready to
18 cross-examine the witness?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon. I thank you for being
23 here. If this is the case, could you confirm that you did give a
24 statement on the 27th of June, 2001 here in The Hague, it seems to me.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 Witness, I'm going to return to the facts, but before that I would
3 like to ask the Chamber.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we seem to be
5 facing a new problem, which is to do with Rule 91 of the rules. I believe
6 that this Rule is giving the Defence the opportunity to ask the Chamber to
7 tell the witness -- to remind the witness of the necessity to speak the
8 truth. I don't know whether this is necessary in this case.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just give me one second,
10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You're referring to Rule 91(A). As far as I can
13 see, could you please start your cross-examination up until a moment
14 where -- or if you indicated already during the examination-in-chief there
15 are serious reasons to give a warning as referred to in 91(A), please tell
16 the Court so that we can...
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Simply
18 because there are certain -- there's a testimony which was given today
19 which isn't consistent with the written testimony of another day. So
20 basically on this principle, I think that it is up to the Chamber to see
21 whether this is necessary.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'll do it in the following way: Miss E, the counsel
23 for the Defence has indicated that he has found contradictions between
24 what you said before, giving a statement, and what your answers were on
25 the questions put to you today by the Prosecutor. You well understand
1 that if you say today this is what the truth is, then you're doing the
2 right thing. If you say, no, what was -- I might have forgotten something
3 or what I said earlier was the truth, then just inform this Chamber. I'm
4 just stressing to you that it's of vital importance that whenever you have
5 any doubt or whenever you don't remember anything, please tell us. And if
6 you give your testimony to the best of your recollection, and in
7 conformity with the solemn declaration you gave.
8 I have not seen any of your earlier statements, so I do not know
9 whether Mr. Piletta-Zanin is right in assuming that there are
10 contradictions. But just answer to the best of your recollection whatever
11 questions put to you by Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and that's what we expect you
12 to do.
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 This was done in a very objective way, and I thank you for it.
16 Q. Now, Witness, you said in line 10, to be precise, of page 61, that
17 the bullet which went through your body remained in the wall. You
18 declared this, and this is what I am quoting from the English transcript.
19 Do you confirm this, what you said today?
20 A. Yes. The bullet remained in the wall. But when we returned, it
21 had probably fallen out of the wall, so we couldn't establish exactly
22 which bullet it was because there were several bullets. There were many
23 bullets on the floor.
24 Q. Because, Witness, I believe that you said at the time that the
25 bullet did not remain in the wall, but it had ricochetted, and I'm talking
1 about your written statement. Is that correct?
2 A. No, that's not what I said.
3 Q. Very well.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm going to
5 have to read. I'm going to have to read, if you authorise me, according
6 to the procedure that we have already had before part of the statement.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Did you provide the statement to the interpreters'
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I here have a statement in
10 English that I can read, and then the interpreters can interpret it so --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please read.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
13 The line says the following, and I'm going to read it in
15 JUDGE ORIE: Miss E, Mr. Piletta-Zanin is now reading in the exact
16 wording as it is written down in your statement given before to the
17 investigators. Yes.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have before me the English
19 transcript, which says the following, and I am quoting: "We didn't keep
20 the bullet which had hit me. It wasn't in the wall, so it must have
21 ricochetted off and fallen somewhere."
22 [Interpretation] End of quote.
23 Q. So I'll just ask you a question. If you said that this bullet had
24 ricochetted and when went off somewhere, and you said no. So could you
25 perhaps explain what seems to the Defence to be a contradiction.
1 A. So I'm going to tell you what happened. The bullet hit the wall,
2 and it stayed in the wall. But when we returned, it wasn't completely in
3 the wall, not fully. It was not a deep hole in the wall. It fell out.
4 And because of previous firing, there was shrapnel, there were bullets,
5 there were all kinds of things on the floor. So where did not know which
6 one of the bullets had been the one. But the bullet had hit the wall, and
7 then fell out.
8 Q. So I understand that it had fallen out, but it had not
9 ricochetted. Is that correct?
10 A. No, it didn't ricochet.
11 Q. Thank you very much for specifying this.
12 How can you be absolutely certain if there were several hits,
13 bullets, that this was the one in question, that this was the bullet in
15 A. Yes, there were traces from bullets on all the wall, but not at
16 the lower half of the house. This bullet that we saw was the first time
17 we saw it then. In fact, I saw it straight away because it was very low.
18 It was very low on that wall of the house.
19 Q. Witness, I believe you said -- I think I heard you say in your own
20 language that there were -- there were several bullet cases on the floor,
21 and shrapnel. Is that correct?
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE: Perhaps my learned colleague could take us to the
25 passage where this witness said there were several bullet cases on the
1 floor and shrapnel.
2 JUDGE ORIE: What I read in the English translation,
3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is that "... And because of previous firing, there was
4 shrapnel, there were bullets, there were all kinds of things on the
6 Of course, it can be a matter of translation, whether there were
7 any cases on the floor. Could I just ask the interpreters whether any of
8 the interpreters heard the word "bullet cases"?
9 I do not get a positive answer.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].
11 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear that. I was listening to the -- so
12 please, then, proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The answer was yes from the French booth.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Yes. Witness, since there were bullets cases on the floor, so
16 there was firing from that spot?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I appreciate that you have been told
19 by the French booth that they heard the word "cases." It doesn't appear
20 in the English translation --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, it's clear that this is a translation
23 MR. IERACE: I simply ask that it be clarified with the witness
24 before my friend presumes that is the evidence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you first seek
1 confirmation of the answer given by the --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask my question
4 Q. Witness, what I heard, I believe that you said, that you spoke --
5 that there were bits from bullets. Is that correct? And you spoke of --
6 A. There were bullets and there was shrapnel.
7 Q. Thank you very much for this specification, Witness. I'm going to
8 return to the military question. So you were not able to know --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I apologise for rising to my feet
11 again. This is a very important issue. My friend has put to the witness
12 that there were bullet cases. And that indicates that the bullets were
13 fired from the spot. And I asked him, out of fairness, to clarify that,
14 and he has not done that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Miss E, you told us there were a lot of things on the ground.
17 Were there bullet cases on the ground?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there were not bullet cases.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please tell us exactly what was on the
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shrapnel from the shells that had
22 landed around the house before, and casings that were falling on the
23 roof. They were shells. These are leftovers from bullets. You could see
24 it all over during the war, everywhere.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did I understand you well, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
1 that you wanted to cover a new subject now. Because it's 10 minutes to
2 7.00, and if this would be a suitable moment to adjourn.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can perfectly
4 stop here if the Chamber authorise me and I can continue tomorrow with the
5 witness. How long are we allowed to stay here, is it 7.00 or quarter to
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm mistaken. We can go on until 7.00.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Had an early
10 break today. That's my normal sense of time seems to be lost. Please
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'm
14 Q. Witness, thank you for the clarifications. You said that your
15 father was in the Territorial Defence. Can you confirm that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did your father have a rank in his military unit?
18 A. No, he didn't.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think the evidence was that her
21 father was in the army. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that is what was my recollection
23 as well.
24 Was your father in the army or in the Territorial Defence, Miss E,
25 or is it the same to you?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all the same, everyone was in
2 the army at the beginning of the war. Everything was called Territorial
3 Defence, and then a couple of months later it was all called BH army. So
4 he was just like the others. And I would like both parties -- I don't
5 want any questions asked about the army because I'm not going to reply.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I think --
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence is certainly
8 taking the point.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'll give the opportunity now to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to
10 continue the cross-examination, and we'll see what happens. But as a
11 general rule, you have to answer the questions. And whether there's any
12 difficulty, just let me know because you're addressing the parties now.
13 Just let me know and I'll try to solve whatever problem there might be.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.
16 Q. Witness, you just said that you did not want to answer questions
17 to do with the armies. What is the reason?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I don't allow any questions on
19 this issue at this very moment. Please put the questions you have to do
20 to the witness -- yes, please proceed.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much.
22 Q. Witness, you did not answer to my previous question. You said did
23 your father have a rank in his military organisation, please?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Thank you for your answer.
1 Witness, you just said that for you, the Territorial Defence was
2 the same thing as the army. Could you please clarify this or give more
4 A. For this reason; because they were all on the same side. They
5 were all fighting for one thing.
6 Q. Witness, in one and in the other, in both entities, the
7 Territorial Defence and the army, the soldiers or the members of the
8 Defence, did they have regular uniforms?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE: I would ask that the question be specific as to the
13 year, since we've all heard evidence in the Trial Chamber that the
14 situation varied from year to year. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Miss E, may I just ask you, you just answered a question about
17 uniforms. Could you tell us perhaps in more detail. Could you see any
18 distinction between BiH army soldiers or military people and Territorial
19 Defence people?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think -- not I think but I know
21 that. In the war, the uniforms were camouflage, all the same that the
22 whole world has. They all looked the same. Some had green, some had
23 blue. I was a child. How do I know who was wearing what? The civilians
24 were wearing camouflage clothes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's exactly the answer. Please proceed, Mr.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Witness, you said yourself that at the time of the incident, that
4 is, in [redacted] --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think we did not refer to the
6 date of -- and Madam Registrar, could you please make a redaction in that
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise, Mr.
9 President. Thank you.
10 Q. Witness, at the moment, at the time of the incident that you know
11 the date of, you said that you were wearing a jacket which was blue. Is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes. Dark blue.
14 Q. Very well. Which colour were the uniforms that we were speaking a
15 moment ago in opposition to the other uniforms that we were calling
16 camouflage uniforms?
17 A. There were all kinds of colours. If I -- you mean if I had been a
18 soldier, a child of a few years of age with long hair?
19 Q. Madam, I am not saying anything; I'm just asking a question. If
20 you can answer, please answer; if you cannot answer, then do not answer.
21 Things are very simple.
22 A. No.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... please address
24 me, and I'll see how we'll solve the problem. Yes, just be confident.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't want to answer that
2 JUDGE ORIE: The question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin was whether you
3 know about the colours of the uniforms the military people were wearing.
4 And I felt from your answer that you feel a bit, perhaps, attacked,
5 because your answer says that more or less would you compare a small child
6 with a soldier, a small child with long hair, a girl. I fully understand
7 your reaction, but if you could tell us what the colour of the uniforms
8 was, I can assure you that this Court is perfectly well in a position to
9 assess whether the colour you will mention could have created whatever
10 confusion. We'll have to assess that at a later stage. But could you
11 answer the question what the colours were of the military camouflage
12 uniforms, uniforms you just described.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Blue, green, yellow, white
14 camouflage; all these colours. Black.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].
18 Q. Thank you very much for this answer. The colour blue that you had
19 is one thing, and you said you were wearing jeans. So could I ask you to
20 tell us what was the colour of the trousers that you were wearing at the
21 time of the incident?
22 A. Blue; navy blue, dark blue. It was a dark colour.
23 Q. Witness, to the best of your recollection, do you think that the
24 top and the bottom of what you were wearing were, in a sense, a set?
25 A. No.
1 Q. The two blues were completely different?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you for this answer.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now I would like to continue
5 but perhaps, Mr. President, this is a good time for break. As you wish.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I think this is a good time to adjourn.
7 Miss E, we'll continue tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning. And don't
8 worry, we'll find a way for you to answer the questions put to you.
9 Whenever there's any difficulty, we'll find a solution for that. I hope
10 you're confident that we'll achieve this.
11 Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE: Just for the record, Mr. President, again my friend
13 has misrepresented the evidence. He said that the witness had earlier
14 stated she was wearing jeans. The relevant page and line is page 49, line
15 6, where he said she was wearing dark trousers and a blue jacket.
16 But perhaps we could take that further tomorrow morning,
17 Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps before we adjourn, could the usher lead
19 the witness out of the courtroom.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, Mr. Ierace, I experienced a
22 lot of procedural incidents of which I thought not all of them to be
23 necessary. I urge the parties to always consider fully what is the aim of
24 these procedural incidents, whether they will serve the interest of the
25 party in the best way since I have the feeling now and then that it causes
1 more interventions from my side than I would wish to make.
2 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
4 7.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
5 the 20th day of February, 2000, at 9.00 a.m.