Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4088

1 Wednesday, 20 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom, and in

6 the interpreters' booth and the technical booth. Madam Registrar, would

7 you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Before I'll ask the

11 usher to bring the witness in, I noticed that yesterday at the very end of

12 the -- of our court hearing, there was some commotion on the side of the

13 accused. If this would be anything that the Chamber should know about, of

14 course there's an opportunity to bring it to our attention. If not, we'll

15 just continue.

16 Since I do not see any reaction at this very moment, I'd like to

17 ask the usher to bring the witness in, but the usher has left the

18 courtroom already. I assume that he's getting hold of the witness.

19 Madam Registrar, may I just verify that the face and voice

20 distortion are still effective at this moment. Thank you.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Miss E.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome in the courtroom again. May I remind you as

25 I always say to witnesses that you are still bound by the solemn

Page 4089

1 declaration you made yesterday. As I indicated to you yesterday, the

2 cross-examination by Defence counsel will continue now.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

5 WITNESS: WITNESS E [Resumed]

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

8 Q. Witness, good morning again, and thank you for coming here again

9 today. I'm going to continue my line of questioning. On the question of

10 military equipment, you said that your father was a military, but that he

11 did not have a rank. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So you know that he was a simple soldier. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Witness, your father, did your father wear a uniform during the

16 conflict, or at least part of the conflict?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Witness, could you tell us what kind of uniform was your father

19 wearing?

20 A. Normally whatever uniform he had.

21 Q. Very well. So he would put on in the morning the uniform he

22 wore. But could you tell us what kind of uniform? Was it a camouflage

23 uniform or were there different types of uniforms?

24 A. It was mostly green.

25 Q. Did he also have a blue uniform?

Page 4090

1 A. No.

2 Q. Witness, according to you, as far as you know, have there been --

3 were there women that were members of the army?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you for your answer.

6 Could you tell us, what was approximately your height at the time

7 of your incident, at the time of the accident approximately?

8 A. A metre and 20 centimetres perhaps, not more.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

10 ask the application again of Rule 91.

11 Q. Witness, isn't it true to say that you said -- and I'm quoting

12 from memory -- that at the time of the fact, your height was 1 metre 47?

13 A. Well, I don't know exactly. I then said approximately.

14 Q. Witness, I'm asking you, did you say that you were 1 metre 47

15 centimetres tall?

16 A. Probably.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you for this correction.

18 Now, Witness, so you were more like 150 rather than 120, do we

19 agree on that? Could you perhaps give an audible answer.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

21 A. Probably.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my learned colleague is not referring

23 to the evidence before this Trial Chamber, but rather a passage from the

24 witness's statement.

25 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I expected he did as a matter of fact.

Page 4091

1 MR. IERACE: And the way it has been presented is not entirely

2 consistent with the way it appears in the statement. Therefore, I ask

3 that the relevant words in the statement be put to the witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please literally quote,

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. I'm quoting

7 the section that interests us, that's page 2 of the witness statement.

8 "My mother tells me that when I was 9, I was about 147 centimetres tall,"

9 et cetera. The quote is this.

10 Q. Now, Witness, could you perhaps give us an answer? So were you

11 taller than what you said a moment ago? Could you have been higher than

12 what you said you were?

13 A. I don't know. I don't know. That was ten years ago. I don't

14 know exactly how tall I was.

15 Q. Now, Witness, that was ten years ago, but could you confirm that

16 your statement was given on the 27th of June, 2001, which is about nine

17 months ago? Could you please give us an audible answer for the

18 transcript, please.

19 Could you please give an audible for the transcript.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you for your answer.

22 Witness, you gave us an answer to a question yesterday,

23 Prosecution question, in page 3072, line 4. And the question was the

24 following: "Was there anyone else in the yard when you were hit at that

25 moment in the yard, was there anyone else present?"

Page 4092

1 Witness, at the time of that question, the first question, at the

2 time of the incident, were you not also joined by another young child?

3 A. No. That was before the incident and not afterwards.

4 Q. So -- very well. At that time, that child was no longer in the

5 yard?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you for your answer. But who was inside the house at the

8 time?

9 A. In my house, there was my mother and another house below, a white

10 house, in that house was my father's mother and my uncle's wife.

11 Q. In your house at the time, your father was not in the house?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were there other soldiers that were present either in the house or

14 in the house below?

15 A. Not on that day.

16 Q. And during other days, on any other days?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Witness, your father, since he was a soldier, could you describe

19 for us, if he had one, a weapon?

20 A. I don't know what that's called. I don't know anything about

21 weapons.

22 Q. Thank you. But he did have a weapon?

23 A. No, he didn't keep it in the house. But if he had to go to the

24 front line, then they would go to the HQ, and then they would take it.

25 There was nothing in the house.

Page 4093

1 Q. Thank you for specifying this.

2 Now, you said that your father went to the HQ. Where was this HQ?

3 A. First it was in Breka, Breka Street.

4 Q. Witness, you said beginning, so does this mean that the HQ

5 changed?

6 A. Yes, they changed all the time. They didn't have a specific

7 place. They would go from one set of premises to another. Whether they

8 would be able to use one premises and then they would move to another.

9 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer.

10 You said that there were several different situations, different

11 locations. But which organisation was this HQ? Was this brigade, was it

12 a battalion, do you know which one?

13 A. I really don't know.

14 Q. Now, the premises that the HQ occupied to start with, where were

15 they? Do you remember this?

16 A. I never went to the HQ. I really don't know.

17 Q. Witness, thank you for this answer. And your father, did he walk

18 there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So we can deduce that the HQ was fairly close to where you lived?

21 A. No, it wasn't close.

22 Q. What is the distance, Witness, between the street that you just

23 mentioned and the house where you lived?

24 A. It's not too far, but it is far. I don't know. Maybe five or six

25 streets below. The HQ was more towards the city because we were really

Page 4094

1 more in the suburbs.

2 Q. Witness, you said five or six streets. Do you have any idea of

3 the distances? Do you think you could maybe give us an estimate in terms

4 of distances, in terms of space? What was the distance from the HQ to

5 your house? Would you be able to give us a distance, perhaps? If you

6 cannot do, then you're not able to.

7 A. No, I can't.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer. But what is the distance

9 between the spiky rock and your house?

10 A. I don't know, because there was a round-about way, perhaps 2 or 3

11 kilometres, but as the crow flies, probably closer.

12 Q. So the distance by road would have been 2 or 3 kilometres. Is

13 that what you're saying?

14 A. Approximately. I don't know for sure.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 Witness -- I withdraw that. Witness, what is located below your

17 house, underneath, I mean geologically speaking?

18 A. Before the war, there was wood. But because there was great need

19 for the firewood during the war, there was no longer wood. There was just

20 like a rock. It wasn't really a valley. It wasn't a particularly high

21 hill.

22 Q. Thank you. So there was a ridge or a crest behind your house --

23 below your house. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 4095

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Page 4096

1 Witness, do you know who was on that ridge at the time during the

2 war?

3 A. Nothing.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

5 have the Rule 91 applied, please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the experience I had yesterday

7 with, when I followed your suggestion to apply Rule 91, was such that I

8 will not apply again Rule 91 until it is clear to me as well that it

9 should be applied. So please continue questioning and indicate the moment

10 where you think that the contradiction is such that --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well. Well,

12 all right, Mr. President. I would like to have the statement in Serbian

13 shown, so perhaps she could read to us the beginning of the third

14 paragraph.

15 JUDGE ORIE: As you know, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we usually ask

16 counsel to read the lines in the language they want to read it and not

17 have the witnesses to read it themselves.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. But may I show the

20 statement to the witness to authenticate the signature, as we usually do,

21 Mr. President?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Miss E, Mr. Piletta-Zanin has a document, and

23 it will be shown to you now. Would you please tell us whether the

24 signature which is on this document is yours.

25 Yes, please, Mr. Usher, would you -- is it one page or more

Page 4097

1 pages, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The document has three pages

3 in total, I believe. But the page -- the quote in question is only on one

4 page.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please show it to the Prosecution. Please return

6 it.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to read a quote. I believe this is a

10 third paragraph of the statement that you gave, and this is -- the date is

11 27th of June, 2001.

12 "The army defenders used to pass close by our house on their way

13 to the front lines on the ridge above us."

14 [Interpretation] End of quote. Thank you. Now, Witness, I just

15 asked you what was on the little ridge which was above you, above your

16 house, and you said in Serbian, Nista, nothing.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, do you think

18 this is a good moment perhaps --

19 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If you want to continue to

20 ask the witness exactly what she meant with her answer given in this

21 courtroom and the answer given during her earlier statement, in order to

22 clarify whether there is a good explanation for what might seem to be a

23 contradiction, but not for certain is already a contradiction.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 4098

1 Q. Now, Witness, you said in a written statement in June 2001 that

2 the defenders of Sarajevo -- sorry, the Bosnian defenders had their front

3 line a position on this little hill above your house. Is that correct?

4 A. No, no, not on that ridge. I think you misunderstood. Above that

5 ridge there was a much higher hill, and this is where the front line

6 was. But on that other place, it was just -- there was no -- there was

7 just a Mahala, there were no soldiers, no trenches, there was

8 nothing.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you for this precision. Now, this location, how

10 far is it?

11 JUDGE ORIE: What location are you referring to,

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? Because the witness has now talked about the two

13 places, the ridge she was mentioning during her testimony in Court here,

14 and another place, the higher hill which might have been a ridge as well

15 where the front line was. Would you please indicate which ridge you refer

16 to in your last question.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I'm

18 referring to this other place mentioned by the witness. This is this

19 higher hill.

20 Q. How far was it from your house, Witness E?

21 A. I wouldn't know exactly this. I said approximately. There was

22 this Spicasta Stijena, the spiky rock that it was about 2 or 3 kilometres

23 away, and the lines were right below so that I just don't know exactly.

24 Believe me. I'm not a soldier.

25 Q. No, I do not think that you are one. I merely want to know if on

Page 4099

1 that hill above you, on the hill above your house, whether there was a

2 front line. As you gave us the distance between this place and the first

3 trenches, tell us how far were the front lines from your house? If you

4 cannot do that, please tell us.

5 A. It's not that I can't; I don't know.

6 Q. Very well. Thank you, Witness, for this answer.

7 Were there any trenches in the area?

8 A. You mean on that second ridge?

9 Q. I'm referring to the area near your house.

10 A. No, there were not.

11 Q. Witness, is it that you never saw trenches near your house during

12 the war?

13 A. No. As far as I know, above the house there were none.

14 Q. Witness, my question was "near the house," not necessarily only

15 above the house.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Very well. So you do not know if in that area there were any

18 trenches. Is that so?

19 A. No, as far as I know.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will now

21 quote from the same document. It is the same document, so I will

22 circulate it once again, if you wish me to.

23 JUDGE ORIE: If you read it, and if the Prosecution would please

24 follow the source. Please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will do that. It is

Page 4100

1 the third paragraph which reads: [In English] "The defenders' trenches

2 were very close to the Serb trenches, within 50 to 100 metres of them."

3 [Interpretation] This is the end of the quote.

4 Q. Witness, I'm asking again if there were any trenches in the area.

5 You told us that there were not, and yet on the 27th of June, you said --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, having regard to the wording of the

8 question my friend is currently putting to the witness, I think it is

9 required of him to read the next sentence in the statement.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please read the next sentence,

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will come to it. That was

13 my second question. On the last page, it said: [In English] "... From

14 us would have been at least 700 metres air distance away."

15 JUDGE ORIE: What's your question now, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to the

16 witness?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 Q. Witness, I asked you if there were any trenches in the area, and I

19 believe you told me that that was not the case. And will you now answer

20 this.

21 A. I repeat: Around the house, there were none. But I repeat once

22 again, we were not all that far from the front lines. We were not right

23 next to them either.

24 Q. Very well.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I noticed that you shifted from

Page 4101

1 near the house to an area, which I understand as being the area near the

2 house. You are now confronting the witness with a statement which says

3 that "at least 700 metres away from the house." You are creating

4 confusion, and I'll not allow you to continue creating confusion.

5 Would you please proceed.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Merely, we can look at the French transcript to see what I said exactly.

8 I said several times "in the area" picking up the word that was used in

9 the statement.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You started your questioning "near the house,"

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

13 Very well.

14 Q. Witness, did you have an opportunity to see these trenches in the

15 area under consideration?

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just wait one second,

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia will read exactly, at least in

20 English, your questions in the beginning.

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: It's page 11, and it starts line 7: "Were

22 there any trenches in the area?" Answer: "Do you mean on the second

23 ridge?" Question: "I'm referring to the area near your house." Answer:

24 "No, there were not." Question: "Witness, is it that you never saw

25 trenches near your house during the war?" Answer: "No, as far as I know,

Page 4102

1 above the house there were none." Question: "Witness, my question was

2 near the house, not necessarily only above the house." Answer: "No."

3 Question: "Very well. So you don't know if in the area there were any

4 trenches. Is that so?" Answer: "No, as far as I know."

5 JUDGE ORIE: It makes it quite clear, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Judge

6 Nieto-Navia now spelled out in full detail what kind of confusion you

7 create, and you may proceed.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I'm

9 grateful to the Chamber. I go back to my question about the trenches.

10 Q. These trenches which are 700 metres around the house, were they on

11 front line?

12 A. The trenches on which side of the army?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President -- excuse me.

14 Q. Witness, I'm referring to the trenches on the side of the army

15 called the Bosnian.

16 A. Well, say the first trenches below, as you came out of the house,

17 one could see them. And those others, no, who can see trenches? They

18 wouldn't be called trenches if one could see them.

19 Q. That is an excellent question. But my question was whether these

20 trenches were on the front line.

21 A. Why, yes.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 You mentioned the first trench, and I assume from your question

24 that there was a system with several trenches in two depths. Is that

25 correct?

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Page 4104

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. How many trench lines were there between your house

3 and the front line?

4 A. I've forgotten that, believe me, and I don't remember such minor

5 details.

6 Q. But we nevertheless agree that there were several rows of trenches

7 between your house and the front line is it?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Miss E, may I --

9 A. Yeah.

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ask you a question. When you refer to the trench,

11 you could see any other trenches? You could not see the other trenches?

12 You could not see where these trenches of the Bosnia-Herzegovinian army,

13 or would they be trenches of the other army?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The BH army.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Would that mean that they were a first line of

16 trenches from the BiH army, and then a second line of trenches from the

17 BiH army?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, with the greatest of respect, the

20 wording of the question doesn't allow for another possibility, if I could

21 obliquely put it to you that way.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just read it.

23 MR. IERACE: If I could say this, Mr. President: To intimate my

24 meaning, another purpose.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I did not exactly understand what you meant.

Page 4105

1 MR. IERACE: If I could refer you, Mr. President, back to the

2 earlier scheduled incident that we heard evidence about involving two

3 girls crossing the street, that particular trench could not be described

4 as a front line trench, but it was a trench nevertheless for a different

5 purpose.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I let you continue the

9 question, please.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. That was precisely

11 along the line of our questioning, Mr. President.

12 Q. Witness, was your father engaged as a soldier to defend these

13 trenches?

14 A. I suppose so.

15 Q. You are not sure?

16 A. I'm sure, yes. He went to the trenches. He participated in the

17 defence.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you.

19 Now, Witness, did these trenches serve also for the civilian

20 movement, that is allowing them to move about?

21 A. I don't understand.

22 Q. Witness, you told us that there were several trenches, and I asked

23 you if the civilians also could use these trenches to go from one point to

24 another.

25 A. Yes.

Page 4106

1 Q. Thank you.

2 Did you yourself use these trenches to move about?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Witness, to clarify, you spoke about different trenches. Did I

5 understand you well, but is it correct that there were trenches in front

6 of your house, never mind the distance?

7 A. No, not in front of my house but above our houses, there was

8 another locality. There was another locality, and that locality was on

9 the front line. And they had to use trenches in order to go and fetch

10 water and things like that. But we didn't have to do that because we were

11 slightly lower.

12 Q. Witness, what is this locality that you just mentioned called?

13 A. You mean that locality above me?

14 Q. Indeed.

15 A. It's also called Sedrenik, except that it is higher up. It is at

16 the beginning of Sedrenik and Spicasta Stijena, that locality is right

17 underneath Spicasta Stijena.

18 Q. And therefore, Witness, I understand that your house is much

19 further away from the spiky rock?

20 A. Well, not much, but it wasn't right beneath it; it was rather

21 close by. But there were other houses above me.

22 Q. Thank you for this answer. The trenches that you mentioned a

23 moment ago as those who were -- which were above your house, are they the

24 ones that we're talking now about?

25 A. Yes, that is trench -- they were not big trenches. They were

Page 4107

1 small. I mean, they were trenches made of sacks, of bags, so that the

2 civilians could run by. And that was next to the houses which are below

3 the Spicasta Stijena.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we once

6 again use a map which was already used by the Prosecution yesterday, a map

7 showing -- a map showing the area under consideration. And so as to avoid

8 any problems, perhaps the signature on the map should be somehow

9 concealed, covered up.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Are we, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, talking about P3243?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, I believe that it is a

12 map, not very legible, but where the witness put some markings to indicate

13 her house and something else.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I may remind both that the order that

15 whatever is being shown on the ELMO should not be broadcasted out of this

16 courtroom is still valid because it's not just a matter of the signature,

17 but also of the location of the house.

18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, yes, please proceed.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what I mentioned

20 a moment ago.

21 Q. Witness, do you recognise on the map that is to your right, do you

22 recognise it as a map which represents the area in which you lived at the

23 time of the incident?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, will you please use the pointer to show where

Page 4108

1 was your house?

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. Thank you, Witness.

4 Witness, will you, to the best of your recollection, point at the

5 front line at the time of your accident? Where were the front lines?

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. Could you keep it there so that we can clearly see it.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. Will you once again move along the front line. If there is a

10 front line, will you please point at that front line.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Thank you.

13 Witness, and with the President's leave, I want to ask you to mark

14 this map. You will be given a black marker, and will you please draw this

15 front line there.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I ask the

17 witness to do that?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Now, Witness, you will be given a black marker, and I will ask you

21 to trace on the map the front line.

22 A. Yes. But the front line is not directly as I know it. It is only

23 approximate because I can't read maps very well. So I'll try to help

24 you.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness.

Page 4109

1 Will you now point for us the trenches that you -- that we spoke

2 about.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Witness, will you now please use a dotted line so that we can see

5 the difference, and will you then trace the front line, of course, to the

6 best of your recollection, needless to say.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Thank you, Witness.

9 Witness, if I understood you well, there were several rows of

10 trenches. Were there also some other rows of trenches which you know

11 about and that you could know about?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness.

14 Witness, in relation to your incident at the time when you were

15 struck, did you -- do you know if your incident was officially and duly

16 reported to the administrative authority?

17 A. I do not know.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will consult with my

19 colleague, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you use this also to inform the Chamber on how

21 much time you'd still need for the cross-examination, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No more questions,

24 Mr. President. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 4110

1 Mr. Ierace.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to re-examine the witness.

4 MR. IERACE: I would like to do that, Mr. President, and I would

5 like to show the witness a panorama photograph that may clarify the

6 evidence in relation to various positions. That is, the evidence from

7 cross-examination. With the leave of the Trial Chamber, I would seek to

8 have that photograph shown to the witness. I used it during my opening.

9 It is about 5 feet long, I should say 1 and a half metres long and I think

10 about 20 centimetres wide. It would probably fit on the ledge behind the

11 witness, and I would propose to ask the witness to identify her house.

12 For that reason, perhaps it should be done in closed session.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we'll then move to closed session in

14 order to make the protective measures effective. And I see there's

15 already CS on my screen --

16 [Closed session]

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18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE ORIE: We are now in open session again. Whatever orders

20 there may have been of not broadcasting anything on the ELMO, this order

21 is lifted as from now on.

22 Madam Registrar, could you please help us with the documents

23 tendered in evidence. I think some or even most of them will be under

24 seal. All of them under seal, yes.

25 THE REGISTRAR: The enlarged photograph marked by the witness,

Page 4132

1 P3657 under seal; the traumatology report in B/C/S, P1025 under seal; the

2 English translation, P1025.1 under seal; the set of two photographs, P3273

3 under seal; the map marked by the witness, P3243 under seal; the

4 360-degree Quicktime movie, P3279Q under seal; and the video, P3280Q under

5 seal.

6 JUDGE ORIE: They are all admitted into evidence, and the Defence

7 will have an opportunity to check whether the photograph is exactly the

8 same, apart from the wording. If this would be different, the Defence may

9 inform the Chamber about it.

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I merely

12 wish to draw your attention to one fact, that with regard to the map which

13 is P3243, we have no document. We do not have the source of origin; we do

14 not know where this map comes from. We have no means of identifying

15 various sites. It is not really very readable, and therefore I also note

16 that it was admitted into evidence, but the Defence must say that it

17 has -- that it encounters major difficulties in reading that map.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you please respond.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this map was attached to the statement

20 made by the witness on the 27th of June, 2001. I therefore assume that my

21 friend is saying that he would be grateful to know, or at least to have a

22 copy of -- another copy of the map. Perhaps one that is more legible. I

23 will make some inquiries, and if we have one, we will provide it to the

24 Defence.

25 Mr. President, whilst I'm on my feet, might I raise another

Page 4133

1 matter.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. Mundis will be taking the next two witnesses.

4 Before that happens, might I return to the subject of medical

5 consultations for General Galic. I raise that because if we are not

6 sitting tomorrow, then we can inform the Victim Witness Unit accordingly

7 so that some witnesses who are anxious to return may do so. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you'll allow me to confer with the

9 Registrar.

10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: The Registry has tried to get relevant information

12 during the first break, and no final answer could be given yet by OLAT.

13 During the next break we'll continue our efforts to find out exactly when

14 the examination will take place and we'll inform the parties about it.

15 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I did not

17 hear Mr. Ierace answer the fundamental question, and that is whether there

18 is a scale to this map. Can we know what is the scale of that map?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'll take the lead on that issue.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I much appreciate it,

21 Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: During the examination of witnesses, distances which

23 could be easily measured without asking the witness about the distances

24 have been the subject of the examination. I order the parties to produce

25 a map with a clear scale. And whenever the two points between which a

Page 4134

1 distance might be of any relevance is not in dispute, so if the points are

2 not in dispute, like as far as I see in this matter where we have the

3 Spicasta Stijena and we have the location of a house, I'll allow no

4 questions about what the distance as the crow flies is. Because we can

5 measure it, we can compromise on it. There's no need to spend time on

6 that during the examination of witnesses.

7 Of course, if there's whatever specific reason to put into

8 question the ability of a witness to estimate a distance, so if it's not

9 the distance but the ability of a witness to estimate the distance, then

10 of course the questions can be put to the witness. But if it's just about

11 establishing the distance between two points, it is a bad system to ask a

12 witness who is not prepared and who has not measured the distance to give

13 us the information if there is far better information available.

14 I hope that will save a lot of time.

15 Then, Mr. Ierace, if the scale of the map is available, then we

16 would like to be informed about it. And one of the problems about scales

17 is as soon as you start copying, enlarging, or zooming in or zooming out,

18 scale is not the same any more, unless you also copy the scale on the

19 map.

20 But I don't want to pay any attention to -- I would like to know

21 about distances, but I'd like to have a proper way of establishing what a

22 distance is. This brings me to the last observation I'll make before we

23 continue with the examination of witnesses, is that as I told you before,

24 this Chamber needs to have reliable information. A lot of military

25 details of a person who is at that stage 10 years old might not be very

Page 4135

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Page 4136

1 reliable. And since there are far better ways of finding out, it seems

2 not very efficient to ask all these details to such a person where there

3 are other persons who might know far better, where there are other sources

4 which might give a far more precise indication, especially when we are

5 using more time as indicated before. I think we could save time and avoid

6 wasting time on this kind of questioning.

7 Mr. Ierace, you are ready to examine your next witness?

8 Mr. Mundis, the next witness will be.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Prosecution calls Mejra Jusovic, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please bring in the witness,

11

12 Mr. Usher.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Jusovic, can you hear me?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Since you are answering, I assume you can hear me in

17 a language you understand by the translation.

18 Could you please answer so that -- the microphone is quite at a

19 distance. Perhaps the other two microphones are not in the direction of

20 the witness and can be put on now again. Yes. Ms. Jusovic, before you

21 testify in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence ask you to make

22 a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and

23 nothing but the truth. The text of this solemn declaration will be handed

24 out to you now by the usher. And I invite you to make that solemn

25 declaration.

Page 4137

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Ms. Jusovic.

4 Ms. Jusovic, you'll first be examined by counsel for the

5 Prosecution, the Prosecution who has called you as a witness, and you'll

6 then be examined by counsel for the Defence, and if there are any

7 additional questions by the Judges, we'll put them to you as well. Please

8 proceed, Mr. Mundis.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 WITNESS: MEJRA JUSOVIC

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

13 Q. For the record, Ms. Jusovic, can you please state your full name

14 and provide your date of birth, please.

15 A. Mejra Jusovic, born in 1948, resident of Sarajevo.

16 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, how long did you live in the city of Sarajevo?

17 A. Since 1964.

18 Q. What area of Sarajevo or neighbourhood of Sarajevo do you live in?

19 A. I live in Stari Grad, old town, Sedrenik.

20 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, when did the war begin in Sarajevo?

21 A. The war in Sarajevo began on the 6th of March, 1992.

22 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how your life

23 changed as a result of the war's beginning.

24 A. The change was big. We were left without electricity or water.

25 We spent time in cellars. It was horrible. My husband was wounded in

Page 4138

1 1992 on the 12th of June. I had a son. He was also wounded twice. I was

2 wounded in 1993, on the 24th, by a sniper.

3 Q. We'll discuss that in slightly greater detail in a few moments,

4 Mrs. Jusovic. But first, I'd like to ask you whether Sedrenik, the area

5 where you live -- where you lived -- was an area where sniping activities

6 occurred?

7 A. Yes, from Spicasta Stijena.

8 Q. Were you aware shortly after the war began that there were at

9 least two major military forces that were competing for the city of

10 Sarajevo?

11 A. I was not aware of anything.

12 Q. I take it from your testimony, though, you were aware that there

13 was a war or an armed conflict that was occurring in Sarajevo. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. To tell you the truth, I really did not know anything.

16 Q. You've mentioned the area of Spicasta Stijena. Do you know what

17 was or who was up on Spicasta Stijena?

18 A. Whoever's position were there. I don't know.

19 Q. Do you recall the day that you were wounded by a sniper?

20 A. Yes, on the 24th of July.

21 Q. And in which year was that, Mrs. Jusovic?

22 A. 1993.

23 Q. You've testified that you didn't have any water or electricity

24 once the war began. What did you have to do to obtain water?

25 A. We went at night. There was a cistern, a tank, and then we went

Page 4139

1 at night to fetch the water.

2 Q. What did you use as a source of the heating and to cook, in light

3 of the fact there was no electricity?

4 A. We went to a wood, to get some wood, also at night.

5 Q. Did this particular wood, where you went to collect firewood, have

6 a name?

7 A. Pasino Brdo.

8 Q. And where was Pasino Brdo in relation to your house?

9 A. It is located above my house.

10 Q. During the time of late 1992, 1993, and into 1994, which

11 government controlled the area where you were residing?

12 A. Probably Yugoslav, I guess.

13 Q. I'd like to turn your attention now to 24 July, 1993, the day you

14 indicated that you were wounded by a sniper. Can you tell us what you

15 were doing on that day, starting from the time when you woke up in the

16 morning.

17 A. In the morning, I went at 3.00 a.m., I went to get the wood. And

18 then at 6.00 a.m. when I returned, I was on my way back, I was wounded.

19 Q. On the day in question, were you with anyone or did you go by

20 yourself to collect the firewood?

21 A. Tidza Papic was with me, and she went half an hour ahead of me, so

22 when I was wounded, I was by myself.

23 Q. Approximately, if you know, what time was it when you were

24 wounded?

25 A. 6.00 in the morning.

Page 4140

1 Q. Had the sun come up by that time?

2 A. No, it was overcast.

3 Q. Do you know approximately how far the visibility was at 6.00 in

4 the morning on the 24th of July, 1993?

5 A. To tell you the truth, it was overcast. You could see -- you

6 could see that there was clouds, clouds moving, and that it was clearing

7 up.

8 Q. You've testified that you were gathering wood that morning. Were

9 you -- at the time you were shot, were you returning to your house?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And were you, in fact, carrying wood at the time you were shot?

12 A. Yes, I was.

13 Q. How were you carrying this wood? By what means were you carrying

14 this wood?

15 A. I did not have any means. I was just carrying them on my back, on

16 my shoulder, on my back.

17 Q. Did you use a rope or some type of cord to tie the wood to carry

18 it on your back?

19 A. Yes, we had a rope, and we tied it. That's right.

20 Q. Approximately how far from your house were you at the time you

21 were shot?

22 A. About 200 metres.

23 Q. Do you recall hearing any gunshots immediately prior to your being

24 wounded?

25 A. Twice. There was a shot, and the third one hit me.

Page 4141

1 Q. What, if anything, did you do when you heard the first and second

2 gunshot?

3 A. I lay down on the ground.

4 Q. As you were walking towards your house on the morning that you

5 were shot, what could you see in front of you?

6 A. You could see a house, one house in front of me.

7 Q. Farther off into the distance along the horizon, what geographic

8 feature were you facing at the time you were walking to your house on that

9 morning?

10 A. I was turned towards Spicasta Stijena. I was facing it.

11 Q. You just mentioned that you lay down on the ground once you heard

12 the gunshots go off. Were you then --

13 A. Yes. Yes, I lay on the ground, and I was facing Spicasta Stijena.

14 Q. Were you then struck by the third bullet?

15 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Where in your body were you hit by the bullet?

17 A. Left leg in the buttock.

18 Q. What happened to you after you were struck by this bullet?

19 A. I was on the ground for half an hour because I passed out, and

20 then in the meantime, the neighbour informed my son. My son came, and

21 they took me to the hospital. So I was not kept in the hospital. They

22 took the bullet out, and then I was returned home.

23 Q. Did you have to go back to the hospital for any subsequent medical

24 treatment?

25 A. I went a couple of times to have a Band-aid changed. I went a

Page 4142

1 couple of times.

2 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness be shown the 360-degree

3 Quicktime panorama photo which has been marked P3279R.

4 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, I'd ask you to take a look at the screen in front of

5 you. Do you recognise the view that is on the screen in front of you?

6 A. Yes, I do recognise it. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this picture is of? Can you

8 please tell us what this photograph shows, please.

9 A. I can see my neighbour's house and the place where I was wounded.

10 I can see Spicasta Stijena. You can see that.

11 Q. Where in this photograph can you see Spicasta Stijena?

12 A. You can see Spicasta Stijena to the right.

13 Q. Now, I assume, Mrs. Jusovic, that on the 24th of July, there was

14 not snow on the ground?

15 A. No, no there was no snow.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, for the better understanding of the

17 Chamber, could you please ask your technical assistant to move the cursor

18 to where the witness might have located, just follow the ridge

19 perhaps and then say stop.

20 MR. MUNDIS: I was intending on doing that, but first I want to

21 get the witness to point out where his house is on this photograph.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

23 MR. MUNDIS:

24 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, is your house visible on the photograph in front of

25 you?

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Page 4144

1 A. You can see my house. You can see behind the big house, where you

2 see the big house, and then to the left behind there is my house there.

3 Q. When you say "the big house," are you referring to the large house

4 on the left-hand side of the photograph in the foreground?

5 A. On the left-hand side, yes. My house is just behind this house to

6 the left.

7 Q. To the immediate right and below the big house is another house.

8 Is that your house?

9 A. No, no. My house is below this house which is big house on the

10 left. You can see one house, but my house cannot be seen. You cannot see

11 it from this big house.

12 Q. Your house would be directly on the other side of the large house

13 on the white photograph [sic]. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that would be slightly down the hill from the direction the

16 photograph is facing.

17 A. Yes, that's right. Yes.

18 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, I'm going to ask that the photograph start moving

19 slowly to the right. When you see Spicasta Stijena in the photograph, I

20 would like you to say "stop."

21 A. Stop. You've passed a bit.

22 Q. Okay. Is Spicasta Stijena visible in the photograph?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Can you describe for us where Spicasta Stijena is perhaps in

25 relation to the house, the white house, in the middle and slightly to the

Page 4145

1 left of the centre of the photograph.

2 A. Spicasta Stijena is behind this white house, and it's to the left,

3 in the left direction. And then over there, that's Pasino Brdo.

4 Q. Okay. Are you referring -- when you refer to Spicasta Stijena,

5 are you referring to the ridge towards the left of the photograph at the

6 horizon which includes a number of trees?

7 A. Yes, what's covered, that's Spicasta Stijena. What's covered with

8 trees, that's Spicasta Stijena. To the left, yes.

9 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the photograph be panned to the

10 right, please.

11 Stop there, please.

12 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, do you recognise the area that's now visible in the

13 photograph on the screen in front of you?

14 A. All this is part of Pasino Brdo.

15 Q. And this would be the area where you would go to retrieve firewood

16 to use for heating and cooking?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And on the morning that you had been shot, this is the area that

19 you had gathered the wood in prior to returning home. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the photo continue to be panned to

22 the right, please.

23 Thank you, you can pause there.

24 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, what was your intended route to return home --

25 A. Yes.

Page 4146

1 Q. What was your intended route to return home on the morning when

2 you were shot? In other words, how would you have gotten from the point

3 where this photo is taken to your house on that morning had you not been

4 shot?

5 A. I was going down Pasino Brdo, and then I went to Rasadnjak, this

6 garden area. This is the route I would have taken.

7 Q. Would you have then continued between the two white houses in the

8 centre of the photograph, and then gone to the left to your house?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness now be shown the videotape

12 which is marked P328R.

13 [Videotape played]

14 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Would you please stand in the location

15 where, to the best of your recollection, you were when you were wounded on

16 the 24th of July, 1993.

17 "Could you now please point in the direction where, to the best

18 of your recollection, you heard the shot come from at the time you were

19 wounded.

20 "THE WITNESS ON TAPE: From up above, from the road.

21 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Could you point in that direction

22 please again and hold it for about 3 seconds.

23 "THE WITNESS ON TAPE: From the rock.

24 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Thank you."

25 MR. MUNDIS:

Page 4147

1 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, did you recognise yourself in that videotape?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And to the best of your recollection, did you comply with the

4 directions of the investigators truthfully?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, were there any other -- on any other occasions as

7 you were returning from Pasino Brdo having collected firewood did you hear

8 gunshots?

9 A. No. I only heard it from up there, from Spicasta Stijena. This

10 is where the shots came from.

11 Q. Let me try to rephrase my question. On any other occasion when

12 you were coming down from Pasino Brdo did you hear gunshots from Spicasta

13 Stijena?

14 A. No, I didn't hear anything until I came to cross that pit. And

15 when I came to cross that, that's when the gunfire started.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Jusovic, may I ask you a question. I think

17 Mr. Mundis was asking on whether a day before, a week before, a month

18 before there was ever -- did you ever hear any fire coming from Spicasta

19 Stijena? So not on that same day, but at any other occasion.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, there was

21 gunfire from up there every day, from Spicasta Stijena.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, were there any other occasions when you were grazed

25 or wounded or hit by a bullet, other than the 24th of July, 1993?

Page 4148

1 A. I don't recall the date. I was going with Naza Ocuz, and I was

2 not shot at. I was not shot but I was grazed. There was a fragmentation

3 bullet that grazed me, and the bottom bit of my track suit had burned,

4 burned away.

5 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, did people who lived in your area in Sedrenik take

6 any type of protective measures with respect to these snipers, to protect

7 their homes or their property from snipers? Did you do anything?

8 A. Yes, we put concrete slabs on our windows. Then we put up

9 blankets. But none of this really had any effect because we were in our

10 cellars. If you try to get out, then they would shoot at you.

11 Q. During 1993, approximately on an average day, approximately how

12 many hours would you stay in your basement?

13 A. We would spend the entire day in the cellar. We could only move

14 about during the night. If we needed anything like water or wood, it was

15 only at night that we could move about.

16 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, did you become aware of other neighbours or people

17 who lived in Sedrenik who were the victims of snipers?

18 A. Yes, I did. Rasida Nedic, she was killed immediately. And then

19 Salko Parla, he was also killed. And then there were many who I did not

20 know. They were refugees. Ibro Coso also, he was killed by snipers.

21 Many others wounded. Terrible.

22 Q. You've mentioned three people by name. Do you know the

23 approximate date or year in which those people were killed?

24 A. It was in 1993, but I couldn't tell you the date.

25 Q. Mrs. Jusovic, I neglected to ask you earlier, on the day when you

Page 4149

1 were grazed by the bullet when your trousers were damaged by the bullet,

2 do you remember the approximate time frame that that was? Perhaps what

3 year or month or season that grazing incident took place?

4 A. It was in August, in 1992.

5 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions for the

6 witness at this time, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

8 Ms. Pilipovic, you're on your feet. May I assume that you're

9 ready to cross-examine the witness?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mrs. Jusovic, questions will now be put to you

12 by counsel for the Defence. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Jusovic, good morning.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. Could you tell us whether in the period sometime during 2000 you

18 spoke to the investigators of the OTP?

19 A. Yes, in 2001, yes, I did. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Was this, if you remember, on the 4th of May, 2001.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was this your first interview that you had with the

23 representatives of the Prosecutor's office?

24 A. Yes, it was.

25 Q. Before the 4th of May, 2001, and from the moment that the incident

Page 4150

1 happened, the incident you told us about today, did you speak to any

2 persons from the competent authorities, for instance, the police? Did you

3 give a statement to the police because of what had happened to you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. After the incident happened, the incident you told us about, did

6 you report this incident to anyone except that you went to the Kosevo

7 hospital to be treated? Did you report this incident to anyone that this

8 incident had happened?

9 A. I couldn't report it to anyone. I was just taken to the hospital,

10 and they took the bullet out in the hospital. I couldn't -- I couldn't --

11 I couldn't do that. I couldn't report it.

12 Q. Are you saying that the incident you told us about -- and it was

13 the very first time that you spoke to the Prosecutor's office

14 representatives on the 4th of May, 2001?

15 A. Yes, it was the first time.

16 Q. Can you tell us then, in 2001, when you gave your statement, what

17 was your recollection like or memory in relation to when the incident

18 happened? How fresh was your memory in relation to the time when the

19 incident happened?

20 A. To tell you, the trauma remained with me. It is terrible. I'm

21 telling you it's terrible.

22 Q. When you gave the statement to the Prosecutor's office, did you

23 have the statement read to you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you sign that statement?

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Page 4152

1 A. I did.

2 Q. Did you confirm with your signature that what has been put in the

3 statement, what you said yourself?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm to us that on the 18th of February,

6 2002, you spoke to the investigators of the OTP?

7 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Witness, you told us that you have been living in Sedrenik since

10 1964.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Can you tell us if a part of Sedrenik in which you lived has a

13 street, and what is the name of the street?

14 A. Sedrenik 133 B.

15 Q. So you are telling us that you lived on Sedrenik Street -- what

16 was the number?

17 A. 133 B.

18 Q. 133 B. Are there any other streets in Sedrenik called that, or is

19 there only that street which is called Sedrenik?

20 A. It is the only such street as far as I know.

21 Q. Can you describe to us the street that you lived in? When I say

22 "can you describe it," I mean can you tell us if it is a steep street

23 that you have to climb down, or is it flat and it has no hills?

24 A. Well, that is a flat street, a level street.

25 Q. So you are telling us that there are no elevations or drops in

Page 4153

1 that street?

2 A. Yes, yes, yes. There are bends.

3 Q. Can you explain to us what does "bends" mean?

4 A. Well, it bends, that the streets are not flat, but where I live

5 it is flat or perhaps --

6 Q. Can you tell us your house, you say that it is flat, that it is

7 straight. Does it mean that it is at the foot of the street or is the

8 part of the street where you are, is this street which is flat in the

9 upper part?

10 A. Well, my house is not exactly on the street itself; it is some way

11 away from the street.

12 Q. You told us that your husband had been wounded in 1992.

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Can you describe in more detail the situation and the location

15 where your husband was wounded.

16 A. My husband was wounded in the yard. That is, in the door, as he

17 was coming out so that we could hide in the cellar because the shelling

18 had started. Two shells had fallen there and the third one wounded him at

19 the very entrance door.

20 Q. Can you tell us from which direction, if you can determine, did

21 this shell come from?

22 A. I don't know. I was inside the house when the two shells fell.

23 We were inside the house, and that was when we started for the cellar.

24 So which position it came from, I really can't tell you.

25 Q. Can you tell us when was that in 1992?

Page 4154

1 A. It was in 1992 on the 24th of July, around 1.00 in the daytime.

2 Q. You tell us it was in daytime, around 1.00. Can you tell us if

3 that day there was any gunfire? I mean, was there any shelling and

4 small-arms fire in the part that you live in?

5 A. That day was quiet, and then out of the blue the shelling

6 started.

7 Q. You are telling us that it was on the 24th of July, 1993.

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence should

10 like to show the witness a part of the statement she gave to the

11 investigators of the OTP on the 4th of May, 2001.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to confront the witness with the date of

13 the injuries her husband suffered? Would you then please, first, if

14 you've got one moment.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's right, Your

16 Honour. Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: When you asked, Ms. Pilipovic, about the day the

18 husband of the witness was wounded, I was at that very moment to remind

19 you that it was a repetitious question because it had been -- it was told

20 before by the witness. She said: "My husband was wounded in 1992 on the

21 12th of June." So therefore, before you take her to her earlier

22 statement, would you please verify whether the testimony where she says it

23 was the 24th of July, which seems to be the day exactly the same as the

24 day and the year, although one year earlier when she was wounded herself,

25 whether there's any misunderstanding.

Page 4155

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, like this. In line

2 22, 12.12, 24th of July, 1992. And then I ask her again if it was on the

3 24th of July, and here I see in the transcript "1993." I don't know why.

4 Because all I wanted her to do was that was on the 24th of July, 1992. So

5 that is the day about which the witness says that her husband was wounded

6 on. And she tells us that it was 1992 when my learned friend asked her --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think you must be precise. Since my laptop

8 did start late, it was not connected, I couldn't indicate the exact line

9 to you. But it was one of the first questions. Could you please find

10 where the question was put to her what area, neighbourhood in Sarajevo did

11 you live in? That's right in the beginning of the examination-in-chief.

12 The answer was "I live in Stari Grad, old town, Sedrenik." And the next

13 question was about when the war began. And then what changed at the

14 beginning of the war. And then upon this question on the changes, and I

15 now read literally, part of the answer was: "It was horrible. My husband

16 was wounded 1992 on the 12th of June." It was very precise. I mean it

17 gives the date and the year.

18 So perhaps before lose any more time, Mr. Mundis, you'd like to --

19 MR. MUNDIS: Just for the record, Mr. President, that's page 44,

20 lines 22 and 23.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 Let me just first clarify this. Mrs. Jusovic, when you were

23 examined by Mr. Mundis, you told us that your husband was wounded on the

24 12th of June, 1992. When examined by Ms. Pilipovic, you gave another

25 date, I think it was the 24th of July, 1992 as well. Yes. Could you tell

Page 4156

1 us what was, if you still -- what was the date your husband was wounded?

2 You gave two dates, and I would like to find out which was the correct

3 one. We are not talking about you, about when your husband was wounded.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is where I was wrong. My

5 husband was wounded on the 12th of June, 1992. And I was wounded on the

6 24th of July. So this was the mistake.

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in 1993, and my husband was in

9 1992.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Witness, when asked by my learned friend, you said that your son

13 was wounded twice. I apologise, perhaps I did not hear you well or

14 understand you well. I believe you said, "I had a son."

15 A. Yes, yes. He was wounded twice. He was severely disabled, and I

16 did not...

17 Q. Can you tell us how old is your son?

18 A. He was born in 1970.

19 Q. Can you tell us where was your son wounded the first time?

20 A. It was -- the first time it was a shell which wounded him near the

21 house. And the second time, it was a sniper who struck him.

22 Q. Can you tell us the first time by a shell, when was that? When I

23 say what year, I'm referring to 1992, 1993, 1994?

24 A. He was wounded in 1992. 1992, on the 8th of October the first

25 time by a shell. And then again by a sniper in 1992, too, on the 10th of

Page 4157

1 November.

2 Q. Can you tell us if your son was a member of the Territorial

3 Defence of Sedrenik, subsequently the BH army? Did he participate in the

4 defence?

5 A. No, he did not participate anywhere because he was ill.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Jusovic, I see that you are even a bit shaking.

7 If you are nervous and if you need some extra time, please tell me so that

8 we can arrange perhaps for a short break. We are anyhow at the moment

9 where we should have a break. So if you think you need a quarter of an

10 hour, 20 minutes, have a glass of water and recover a bit, because I see

11 that it's rather emotional to you. You don't have to be ashamed for it.

12 It's quite understandable.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am distressed because of my son,

14 because I didn't see my son for eight years, and I'm now reminded of it.

15 I don't even know where I summon strength to come here.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We're quite happy that you are here. We feel

17 that it's not easy for you. Perhaps we are at a moment where we would

18 have a break anyhow. Perhaps we'll have a break for just 15 to 20

19 minutes, and we'll then resume. And just upon returning in this

20 courtroom, tell me whether you're able to continue to testify. Yes.

21 Yes, please, Mr. Usher, would you first take care of the witness.

22 We'll adjourn until 25 minutes to 1.00.

23 --- Break taken at 12.15 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I'd first like to inform the Defence and the

Page 4158

1 Prosecution that we have no confirmation yet as far as the time of the

2 medical examination is concerned. I do understand that the normal

3 procedure would be that the Defence keeps constantly in touch with OLAT,

4 and as soon as we know whether it will be still today or tomorrow morning,

5 especially if it would be tomorrow morning, that the Defence then

6 immediately informs the Prosecution so that they can arrange for whatever

7 they have to arrange. That's the first remark I'd like to make.

8 The second one is that I'm informed that the witness is not able

9 at this moment to continue to be cross-examined. She needs professional

10 help at this very moment, and I do understand that she'll get it this

11 afternoon. Without interfering in whatever way with the right of the

12 Defence to cross-examine the witness, I would nevertheless ask you to

13 consider whether you feel a need, even under the present circumstances, to

14 continue the cross-examination. We'll have to be aware that when the

15 witness is able to continue to be cross-examined, of course she'll be

16 available. I do not know, of course, what you still had in mind to ask

17 her. I have the experience that very often, you ask about military

18 presence in the neighbourhood. On the basis of what the testimony was

19 until this moment, I do not expect very detailed or clear answers to that,

20 since the witness has testified that she thought she was still under the

21 Yugoslavian government and she didn't know anything about parties in the

22 war. Of course I'm not interfering in any way. Until now, I think the

23 most important issue touched upon in cross-examination was the wounding of

24 her husband and her son. I think that created the very emotional state

25 that she is in now.

Page 4159

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Page 4160

1 If the Defence would consider that the continuation of the

2 cross-examination is not of such importance for the Defence, that it would

3 be necessary to continue, I'd like to know. Otherwise, I expect that the

4 Defence wishes to continue the cross-examination.

5 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

7 Defence would, in any event, like to continue to cross-examine the

8 witness. We are very sorry that the witness was upset obviously. Her

9 story is a very hard one, but we have the statement which the witness gave

10 to the investigators of the OTP on the 4th of May, 2001, in which gives us

11 a completely different story. And my questions were going in the same

12 direction as she spoke. I didn't think that I would upset her, but I need

13 some minutes more to cross-examine her because they are so glaringly

14 inconsistent with what she said in the statement. She even spoke about

15 the army in this statement.

16 So it's very inconsistent with what she said today. Tomorrow my

17 co-counsel will ask her a couple of questions, tomorrow if she can not

18 come today. Of course we have to bear in mind the present state in which

19 the witness is, thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Just for the record, Mr. President, by my rough notes

22 I spent 29 minutes in examination-in-chief, and the Defence had spent

23 approximately 18 minutes until the time we broke, and I just was wanted to

24 point out that if my learned colleague had very important matters to

25 cross-examine the witness, they had an opportunity to begin with that.

Page 4161

1 And I am not saying that the cross-examination should be curtailed by any

2 means, but simply pointing out the time period that has been allowed.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that brings us in a situation. I have been

4 informed that we cannot continue at this very moment. That would mean

5 that very much depends on how the situation will be tomorrow morning, and

6 of course we have to face the potential situation that General Galic will

7 not be available in the courtroom, and therefore we cannot continue since

8 General Galic has expressed his wish to be present.

9 That would also mean that the witness would have to stay over the

10 weekend since we are not sitting on Friday. She would have to stay at

11 least until next Monday, and we also have the problem that the holiday on

12 Friday is an important one especially for the -- for the witness. So I

13 wonder whether we could find a solution for this last 10 minutes, either

14 by General Galic agreeing upon just this witness to be cross-examined

15 tomorrow for 10 minutes in his absence, or...

16 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps a completely different solution,

18 Mr. President, one that's not normal with respect to this trial and the

19 way this Trial Chamber has proceeded. But if the Defence's position is

20 that there are numerous contradictions in her statement, perhaps one way

21 would be to simply admit her entire statement into evidence.

22 JUDGE ORIE: What would be the position as far as the -- do I

23 understand from your reaction that it's -- especially on the basis of the

24 statement that you would like to cross-examine her?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour.

Page 4162

1 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. And what about the potential

2 situation if we would continue tomorrow morning, even if it would be for a

3 short period of time when General Galic is not present? And I'll not

4 change any decision of yesterday, but if he would change his mind just for

5 this one witness for 10 minutes or a quarter of a an hour or 20 minutes,

6 then I would like to be informed.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, we

8 would like to talk to our client. Just a minute, please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 [Defence counsel and the accused confer]

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if it happens that

12 General Galic cannot be present here at 9.00 because he is having --

13 because of the medical examination, then the General agrees that those 10

14 or 15 minutes of cross-examination of the witness, in view of her health,

15 be done in his absence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I thank not only the Defence, but also General Galic

17 for this understanding of the position of the witness.

18 So that would mean, Mr. Mundis, that we could now continue with

19 the examination-in-chief of the next witness, and tomorrow morning we

20 could -- at the appropriate time, we could continue the cross-examination

21 of Witness Jusovic. Yes?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Assuming her medical condition --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. And if not, we are in a totally different

24 situation.

25 MR. MUNDIS: In that event, Mr. President, the Prosecution calls

Page 4163

1 Naza Ocuz.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 I'd just like to put a question to the interpreters' booth, if I

4 split up the solemn declaration in four parts as far as the translation is

5 concerned, can you follow the split up in these four parts?

6 THE INTERPRETER: We shall do our best, Your Honour.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: I'll explain it to you. The English text leaves an

9 opportunity to split up the solemn declaration in four parts, but I don't

10 know whether this would be a problem for the translators to follow that

11 splitting up. We'll see what happens.

12 You're Naza Ocuz?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am Ocuz, Nazija, born in

14 1946.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, very well. I can

17 understand everything.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Ocuz, before you will testify in this Court, the

19 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration

20 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

21 Do I understand well that you cannot read?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot see to read, but I will

23 speak from the bottom of my heart, and I will be speaking the truth and

24 nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then, please, repeat my words and say the

Page 4164

1 following: "I solemnly declare."

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.

3 JUDGE ORIE: "That I will speak the truth."

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.

5 JUDGE ORIE: "The whole truth."

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

7 JUDGE ORIE: "And nothing but the truth."

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mrs. Ocuz.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Ocuz, you'll first be examined by counsel for

12 the Prosecution.

13 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 WITNESS: NAZIJA OCUZ

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

18 Q. Mrs. Ocuz, will you please tell the Trial Chamber in what city you

19 reside?

20 A. In Sedrenik, Sarajevo, Sedrenik.

21 Q. And how long have you lived in Sedrenik?

22 A. I've lived there for 50 years.

23 Q. When did the war start in Sarajevo?

24 A. In 1992, in April. 5th or 6th of April. I'm old, so I think so.

25 I remember the day.

Page 4165

1 Q. As a result of the war beginning in Sedrenik, did your life

2 change?

3 A. Yes, a great deal. A great deal. Completely.

4 Q. Can you briefly tell us how life changed for you once the war

5 started?

6 A. It changed. It was not possible to go anywhere, nowhere,

7 absolutely nowhere. We could not walk anywhere. Day changed for night.

8 We could not walk. We couldn't go anywhere. So that's how I remember

9 it in my locality where I lived.

10 Q. When you say "day changed for night," what do you mean by that?

11 A. We could not walk or move about or work during the day because of

12 the sniping, because of shells. We just had to stay in the cellar

13 sheltering, taking cover, hidden. If you try to walk out during the day,

14 then you would be hit. You would be injured. There would be no more you,

15 either wounded or dead.

16 Q. During 1993, approximately how long did you stay in the cellar

17 during each day?

18 A. Throughout every day. My husband was sick. I had to look after

19 him. I had to -- I had to do everything during the day. We would dig, we

20 would sew, we would go and fetch the water. We did everything during the

21 day. We would fetch the water. We would do it, sorry, during the night.

22 Q. Where would you go to fetch the water?

23 A. Not very far, quite close. It's a reservoir. Everybody knows in

24 Sarajevo where that is, reservoir. We went at night. There was a queue.

25 People would go and sleep there waiting for their turn.

Page 4166

1 Q. Where did you go to collect firewood for heating or cooking

2 purposes?

3 A. Just above the reservoir. Well, there are several reservoirs.

4 There was the whole wood was cut down because we needed to.

5 Q. The area where you cut wood, do you know the name of that area?

6 A. It's called Pasino Brdo. I just remembered, sir.

7 Q. In order to protect your house from the snipers that you've

8 testified about, did you make any changes or modifications to your house

9 in order to protect yourselves?

10 A. Yes, I did. Yes, with my son we put bricks up. My husband was

11 sick. He couldn't do it. So we put bricks. They were red, red bricks.

12 We put them up. We had to put them all one on top of the other.

13 Q. Did you put these bricks in the windows?

14 A. Yes, yes, we did. Yes, just the windows from the dangerous side.

15 Q. Which side was the "dangerous side" of your house?

16 A. Everybody knows that. It was Spicesta, Spicasta Stijena.

17 Q. Why was Spicasta Stijena a dangerous place?

18 A. Because the Serb army was there.

19 Q. Do you know which government or armed force controlled the area of

20 Sedrenik where you lived?

21 A. I don't know. I don't know that. I don't know anything about

22 that. During the day, I never went out. I wasn't interested. I was just

23 trying to keep my child's life, my own, my husband's, and my husband got

24 very sick, and now he is no more. So I remained by myself to suffer.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Ocuz, take your time. If you feel --

Page 4167

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Page 4168

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- we are aware that it will all be very emotional.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. During the latter part of 1992 and during the year of 1993, was

9 the Sedrenik area of Sarajevo targeted by snipers?

10 A. Yes, yes. They fired, and even at night. They even had night

11 weapons. They fired at night. And I can tell you that they fired at the

12 woman. She was turning over. I won't tell her name. She was turning,

13 and they fired, and she said they could see me as if it was daytime. I

14 don't want to tell her name. If somebody needs her name, they can look

15 for her.

16 Q. Do you know what time period it was that this woman was shot?

17 A. It was night. I don't remember the dates. I don't remember the

18 dates. There was -- it was terrible. It was...

19 Q. Mrs. Ocuz, in addition to the bricks that you placed over your

20 windows, did you also use a form of plastic to cover the windows?

21 A. Yes, we did. We got -- from humanitarian help we got plastic to

22 protect ourselves from the cold, from the bullets, from the snipers. So

23 we tried to protect ourselves because we did not everything -- we did not

24 have enough of things to we had to give things to each other to protect

25 ourselves.

Page 4169

1 Q. Was the glass in your windows intact during 1993?

2 A. No, no. It was a nylon foil, plastic foil.

3 Q. Why were there no window panes in the windows during 1993?

4 A. Of course the shrapnel broke it all. It's all broken. Yes, all

5 the windows are broken, so the foil is the only thing we had to protect

6 ourselves, as much as it could do that.

7 Q. Were you wounded by a sniper, Mrs. Ocuz, during the course of

8 1993?

9 A. Yes, yes. In 1993, I'll never forget that. I'll never forget

10 that day as long as I live. We set lunch, we were going to have lunch, my

11 son and I. And my kuma was out in the street, and I said to my son -- my

12 neighbour was out in the street. And I said to my son, can you hear the

13 firing, can you feel the firing? My son said, "No, no." I said I was

14 hurt and I didn't want him to approach me because -- so we went to call

15 the neighbour for help. It was terrible. So my son went to the door, and

16 I said, "please come back." And then they took me into the car. Then

17 I -- immediately they operated on me. I was 15 days in the hospital. And

18 after that, after the bandages, I had a cast. I had regular checkups,

19 whenever the doctor said.

20 Q. In what part of your house were you located at the time you were

21 shot?

22 A. On the right-hand side.

23 Q. In which room?

24 A. In the kitchen.

25 Q. Did the kitchen have a window that faced Spicasta Stijena?

Page 4170

1 A. Yes, yes, it did. Yes, both from the room and the kitchen and on

2 the first floor and the upstairs as well, they were both facing that way

3 towards the Spicasta Stijena. All the windows were facing that way.

4 Q. I'd like you to focus on the window that was in the kitchen. At

5 the time you were shot, was that window covered by bricks and plastic?

6 A. Yes. Yes, we had put the bricks there, and my son as well.

7 Q. Did the bricks cover the window entirely, or was there still an

8 opening in the bricks to allow light to come in?

9 A. No, no. No, light could not come in. No, no way.

10 Q. Could you see from your kitchen Spicasta Stijena?

11 A. No, only if I went out at night, then I could see it. I could see

12 where the -- where the evil was coming from on to my village.

13 Q. When you -- you were in your kitchen at the time that you were

14 shot. What were you doing?

15 A. Yes. I was having lunch. I just sat down to have lunch. My son

16 was on my left-hand side. I was on the right. And my husband always

17 said, "don't sit there. Whoever sit there -- I said don't sit on that

18 side because the bullet will hit you." He is not there. He is dead, my

19 husband, but I am telling you the truth what he told me.

20 Q. And at the time you were shot, were you, in fact, sitting in the

21 location that your husband had warned you about?

22 A. Yes, on that side, yes. Not quite at the place, but on that

23 side. On the right-hand side.

24 Q. In what part of your body did the bullet hit you?

25 A. A lower leg, in the bone, shin.

Page 4171

1 Q. Was this on your left leg or your right leg?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I'm

4 sorry, but I believe what is interpreted by the French booth is not what

5 is in the English transcript. I believe that I heard in the French

6 translation that the husband was bearing a rifle, that he knew these

7 technical questions. And it doesn't seem to come out at all in the

8 English transcript.

9 This doesn't appear in the transcript as I am reading it in 73,

10 line 12.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It is true that nothing appears in the English

12 translation on any issue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin has just confronted us with.

13 It seems to be different than the French translation.

14 Could perhaps the French booth inform me about what is exactly in

15 reference to translation. We are talking about page 73, line 12. I don't

16 know whether the interpreters also can follow the --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, none of the booths can follow the

18 French screen.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The French booth informs me that to the best of their

20 recollection, the husband had been -- carried arms before, and therefore

21 knew what he was talking about. Is that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what is in

22 your -- well, at least we established that there might have been a

23 translation problem. I think we have now heard both the text without this

24 phrase, and we have this phrase explained by the French booth. If one of

25 the parties thinks it of vital importance, of course we'll have to check

Page 4172

1 the original language used, and then see whether the transcripts are in

2 need of any redaction in this respect.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

4 Mrs. Ocuz, we just had to pay a bit of attention to the

5 translation of what you have said. It is translated in two languages, and

6 there seemed to be a --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- But we now continue, and we can now concentrate

9 again on what is important, that is, your story.

10 Please, Mr. Mundis.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. Mrs. Ocuz, you said a few moments ago that you were wounded in the

13 bone of your leg. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's right. Right leg.

15 Q. In your right leg. Was this the upper part of your leg or the

16 lower part of your leg?

17 A. Lower part of my leg. Above the ankle.

18 Q. You told us that you went to the hospital, and that you stayed

19 there for about 15 days. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you returned to your house, did you examine the kitchen walls

22 to see where the bullet might have come from?

23 A. Yes. I examined, and I saw there was a bullet in the foil. There

24 were three parts of the window, and it was the middle part of the window.

25 It had a hole, so this is where the bullet had entered.

Page 4173

1 Q. And when you say foil, was this the plastic foil that the

2 humanitarian aid agency distributed to you?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Mrs. Ocuz, when you left the hospital, did they give you some

5 paperwork, some documents?

6 A. Yes, they did.

7 Q. At a later time when you were interviewed by an investigator from

8 the Tribunal, did you then provide those medical documents to that

9 investigator?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Did that investigator also ask you to sign those medical records

12 on the bottom?

13 A. Yes. Yes, he did.

14 Q. Now, I know you mentioned earlier that your eyesight wasn't too

15 good, but if I were to show you that document, do you think you would

16 recognise your signature on that document?

17 A. Yes, of course. Yes, yes, large letters, yes.

18 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness be shown the document marked

19 P1716, please.

20 A. Yes, that's my name and surname.

21 Q. This is the document that you gave to the investigator of the

22 Tribunal?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. And this is the document that the hospital gave you when you left

25 the hospital?

Page 4174

1 A. Yes, this is the very same document.

2 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Ocuz.

3 I'd like to ask you now a few questions about some of your

4 neighbours. Do you know Mejra Jusovic?

5 A. Yes, I do. I know her well. I know she is my neighbour.

6 Q. During 1993, did you frequently go with Mrs. Jusovic to collect

7 wood in Pasino Brdo?

8 A. Yes, yes. All of the neighbours, friends went at night to get the

9 wood. But mostly with Mejra.

10 Q. During 1993, how often would you go with Mejra Jusovic to collect

11 wood?

12 A. I don't know. I didn't count the times, but I often went with

13 her. I often went with Mejra. I didn't count the times.

14 Q. Were you ever with Mejra Jusovic when a sniper fired at the two of

15 you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were you ever with Mejra Jusovic when she was grazed by a bullet?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember what year or date that was when that happened?

20 A. No, no. I don't remember the date. I don't remember the year. I

21 don't remember that. I only remember my own, my own leg.

22 Q. During the period from 1992 through 1993 and into 1994, did you

23 ever see any heavy military equipment or military weapons in Sedrenik?

24 A. No, nothing. I did not see anything. If there was it during

25 daytime, I don't know because I never left the cellar. I did not go

Page 4175

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Page 4176

1 anywhere. At daytime, we would sleep. You would cook in the cellar, and

2 then at night, we had to fetch the wood, get the wood, do the laundry.

3 Q. Did you ever see any military weapons or heavy military equipment

4 on Pasino Brdo?

5 A. No, no. When would I go there?

6 Q. Did you ever see any soldiers on Pasino Brdo?

7 A. Yes, on Spicasta Stijena.

8 Q. But not on Pasino Brdo in the area where you collected wood?

9 A. No, no, no. I did not, no.

10 Q. Did you ever see Mejra Jusovic wearing any kind of military

11 uniform?

12 A. No, no, no.

13 Q. Did you ever see her carrying -- did you ever see her carrying any

14 kind of military weapon or rifle or gun of any kind?

15 A. No. No, the only thing I know, it was wood. Mejra and I would

16 just carry wood. We were always in civilian, old trousers, just rags

17 really, whatever we wore -- whatever we had, we wore. That's all.

18 Q. Did you ever wear a military uniform, Mrs. Ocuz?

19 A. No, never, never.

20 Q. And finally, during 1993, do you know of other neighbours or

21 friends of yours who lived in Sedrenik who were the victims of sniping or

22 shelling incidents?

23 A. Yes, yes. A neighbourhood was killed there. Another neighbour

24 was wounded there. If I could write, I would write a book of all the

25 people who had been wounded. But whatever remains in my soul, that's what

Page 4177

1 I can tell you about.

2 Q. And these people who were killed and wounded, do you know what

3 year or years they were killed or wounded?

4 A. I don't know. I don't know the years. During the war, you know

5 how long it went on for, for four years. Everyone was killed.

6 Q. Were these people that were killed and wounded, killed or wounded

7 around the same time, within a few months of the time that you were

8 wounded in the war?

9 A. No. This day, that day, one was wounded, one was killed, one was

10 wounded, one was killed. It just happened that way. How can I know the

11 dates?

12 Q. This period of people being killed and wounded, it extended

13 throughout the war, from middle 1992 through 1994? Is that what you're

14 telling us?

15 A. Yes. Yes, that is what I wanted to say.

16 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs. Ocuz.

17 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

19 Mrs. Ocuz, you'll now be examined by counsel for the Defence.

20 Ms. Pilipovic, you're ready to cross-examine the witness? Please

21 proceed.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Ocuz.

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 4178

1 Q. Mrs. Ocuz, can you confirm for us that on the 20th of September,

2 2001, you gave a statement to OTP investigators?

3 A. I don't remember days. Believe me, I don't remember any days.

4 Q. But was it in 2001?

5 A. I don't know. I don't know such things.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Ocuz, was it during the last summer?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right. Last summer.

8 Yes, yes, quite right. Last summer.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mrs. Ocuz, can you tell us, before you gave this statement in the

11 summer of 2001, did you report the incident that you told us about today?

12 A. Which incident?

13 Q. You've just told us that you were wounded, and did you report it

14 to the police or some other authority in Sedrenik?

15 A. I see. Well, I guess my son reported it. I don't know.

16 Q. Can you tell us how old is your son?

17 A. He was 30.

18 Q. And before the summer of 2001, did you give any statement to any

19 authority about the incident, or was this the first time?

20 A. I didn't see anyone, except those foreigners who came and asked

21 me. That's what I know, and I'm telling the truth. They came and asked

22 me about how I received my wounds.

23 Q. Thank you. You said that you lived with your son and husband.

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Can you tell us if your son and husband prior to the conflict in

Page 4179

1 Sarajevo were fulltime employed?

2 A. Yes, my son was fulltime employed.

3 Q. Can you tell us where he worked?

4 A. He worked for Granap.

5 Q. And what about your husband?

6 A. He was ill. I already told you, in 1996, in the winter, he --

7 Q. But did he work before he fell ill?

8 A. He was retired. He worked for self-employed, entrepreneur, then

9 he was retired.

10 Q. Were you employed?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. Where did you work, can you tell us?

13 A. In a Medresa.

14 Q. Did you work during the conflict?

15 A. Yes, yes, I did. I did.

16 Q. Can you tell us in relation to the house that you lived in,

17 precisely Sedrenik, can you tell us precisely what street? Sedrenik?

18 A. Sedrenik Street. That's what it's called.

19 Q. Does your house have a number?

20 A. Yes, it has a number.

21 Q. And it is which?

22 A. Why do I have to tell you that?

23 Q. Well, if you can, Witness, then answer.

24 A. 52.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 4180

1 You told us that during the conflict, you were also fulltime

2 employed.

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Can you tell us in relation to your house in which you lived, how

5 far was your workplace from it?

6 A. It was far. In the shopping centre. I had to go there on foot.

7 Q. Can you tell us, that 1992, 1993, 1994, how often did you go to

8 work?

9 A. Every day. Every day.

10 Q. When you went to work, you said that you went every day. Did you

11 use some means of transportation or did you walk or did you go on foot?

12 A. On foot. Oh, dear, was it hard.

13 Q. Can you tell us if at the time when you went to work, and you tell

14 us you did so every day, in the part of the town you lived in, would you

15 used to see and come across soldiers?

16 A. No, no, no. I didn't. No soldiers.

17 Q. And at the time when you would go to work or come back, can you

18 tell us at what time did you go to work and at what time did you come

19 back?

20 A. Early in the morning, and I'd come back in the evening. Early

21 while it's still dark you go there and...

22 Q. Can you tell us the institution that you worked for, Medresa, what

23 is it?

24 A. It is a religious establishment. You know what a religious

25 establishment is, believers.

Page 4181

1 Q. Thank you. And when going to your place of work and on your way

2 back, would you come across armed men enroute?

3 A. No, because I went while it was still dark, and I would come back

4 when it was dark again. So I didn't meet them.

5 Q. Did you ever, when you went to work and returned from work, meet

6 during that time, in 1992, 1993, and 1994, uniformed policemen, an armed

7 soldier?

8 A. No, no, no.

9 Q. Can you tell us if during the conflict between 1992 and 1994, if

10 your so was employed?

11 A. Was he employed? Yes, he was all the time, because he was a poor

12 student so he couldn't --

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter makes a correction.

14 A. I said he was poor, so he couldn't go to the front line. He had

15 to work.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. When you say that his eyesight is poor, what do you mean by this?

18 A. I mean that he couldn't join the army, our defence.

19 Q. So you tell us that your son was a soldier?

20 A. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that they wanted him, but he

21 couldn't because of his eyes.

22 Q. So you are telling us that because your son had some problems with

23 his eyes, that he could not join the army for that reason?

24 A. Yes, that is what I'm saying.

25 Q. Can you tell us in Sedrenik where were the positions of the army

Page 4182

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Page 4183

1 which called up your son? Can you tell us what was the name of that army?

2 A. I don't know. How can I know that? I mean, defending his --

3 defending its people, they called them.

4 Q. When you say that your son could not go to the front line, can you

5 tell us in relation to your house in which you lived, where was that front

6 line?

7 A. You mean further away from my home?

8 Q. How far was it?

9 A. Are you asking me about Stijena?

10 Q. When you say "the front line," he couldn't go to the front line,

11 do you have any knowledge about Spicasta Stijena and Pasino Brdo which you

12 mentioned? Were there any front lines in that part?

13 A. Above Pasino Brdo, there was our front line. That's what I heard

14 when people talked.

15 Q. And in relation to Spicasta Stijena, did you have any knowledge or

16 did you hear where the front lines were of the army which called up your

17 son, which you say defended?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Can you tell us, in relation to your house, how far away from your

20 house is Spicasta Stijena? It is a kilometre or what?

21 A. I don't know. 500 -- no, little bit more. I don't really know.

22 I can't tell you exactly.

23 Q. Can you describe --

24 A. I don't know this. I can't write that down or...

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I ask you to pause between the

Page 4184

1 answer and the new question to be put to the witness.

2 Mrs. Ocuz, since whatever you say is translated, we are trying to

3 slow down a bit in order to give the interpreters the opportunity to

4 translate what you've said. So we're trying to slow down a bit.

5 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I'm very upset. You

7 understand, I'm very excited.

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... But this Court

9 is very interested to hear what you say, and therefore translation is

10 important.

11 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mrs. Ocuz, my last question was if you can describe to us the part

14 about which you say is called Spicasta Stijena, what does it look like?

15 A. Well, it looks like a rock, like a hillock, like a hill, and

16 those boulders there, and in front of them are houses.

17 Q. And in that part where you told us where those boulders or a

18 boulder --

19 A. Well, boulders, boulder, a rock, whatever.

20 Q. Is that part where that rock is, is it forested? Was there any

21 forest there?

22 A. There used to be. Yes, there used to be.

23 Q. When you say "there used to be," can you tell us, it was when? In

24 what period, 1992, 1993, 1994?

25 A. Well, there is still the forest where it was, and as it is, nobody

Page 4185

1 laid a finger on it.

2 Q. In that part where Spicasta Stijena is and you tell us there was

3 some woods there, some forest, are you aware of the area called seven

4 woods, Sedam Suma?

5 A. Why, yes, that's where we went to collect firewood.

6 Q. That part which you tell us is called Sedam Suma, how far is it

7 from your house?

8 A. Well, I don't know exactly. A bit further than Spicasta Stijena.

9 I don't know exactly.

10 Q. Do you have any knowledge or did you perhaps hear that in that

11 part about which we have established right now is called Sedam Suma, if

12 there were any troops there?

13 A. I don't know whether there were any troops there or what the place

14 is called. I know where I went to collect firewood, Pasino Brdo, Sedam

15 Suma.

16 Q. How often did you go to Pasino Brdo to fetch firewood?

17 A. Well, often. Every three nights or so.

18 Q. Today, when asked by my learned friend, page 26, you said that you

19 would spend the whole day and night in the cellar?

20 A. No, no, no. At night. Not at night, I worked. By daytime.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we apologise. My

22 co-counsel tells me it is page 76. My apologies. Line 12.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I forgot to say that I went to work

24 in daytime.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Everyone noticed that it must have been a mistake.

Page 4186

1 Please proceed.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Witness, can you tell us, what is true? Is it true that you went

4 to work every day?

5 A. Every day I went to work, and then I come back. Then whatever my

6 husband needs, I tend to my husband, prepare food for the next day, and

7 then I work, all that I had to do. I've already told you, and then all

8 over again. Go to work while it's still dark, and then when the night

9 falls, and then go back home.

10 Q. So it means that you are not right when you said that you were in

11 the cellar all day?

12 A. Yes I was because when I went to work, it was the cellar. That is

13 the cellar, because we worked in the cellar.

14 Q. And whilst you were at your workplace, was your son also full time

15 and did he go to work?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us where is it that he went to work?

18 A. To Granap, to the city, to Granap.

19 Q. Can you tell us how did he go to the city?

20 A. On foot. We would go together and we would come back together.

21 Q. You told us today that you often went with your neighbour Mejra to

22 collect firewood.

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Can you tell us the incident which happened which befell

25 Mrs. Mejra when she was with you?

Page 4187

1 A. When the fog started lifting, we hurried up, and I had run up to

2 cover behind their house. And she had not made it yet. And a bullet

3 targeted her, but she wasn't hit. I was scared but she said no, no, no,

4 it only grazed me. And...

5 Q. You told us that you could not remember the date.

6 A. I don't.

7 Q. Can you tell us, in relation to the incident about which you told

8 us befell you on the 7th of October, 1993, was that before this incident

9 which befell you or after it?

10 A. Before, before, before that thing with Mejra. No, no, no, it

11 happened to Mejra before.

12 Q. Can you tell us, that day when you were out with Mejra, was there

13 any gunfire in that area, in that part of Pasino Brdo where you were?

14 A. No. I don't know, I don't know. I don't know where this bullet

15 came from. Wherever it could have come from, whether from Spicesta or I

16 don't know.

17 Q. Since you told us that you went to look for firewood often in the

18 direction of Pasino Brdo and Sedam Suma, did you, perhaps, hear that the

19 gunfire came from that direction?

20 A. Sure I heard. We are collecting those -- this firewood, and then

21 we hear a burst of fire, and then we get down to the ground and then start

22 doing it again. And then there comes another, and then we are again

23 prostate on the ground, and then collect a little bit more and then take

24 to our heels and get back home.

25 Q. When you say "we hear a burst of fire" could you determine by the

Page 4188

1 sound -- since you are on a hill, could you determine the direction from

2 which this burst was coming from?

3 A. From Spicasta Stijena where we were -- to where we went to collect

4 wood.

5 Q. Can you tell us in relation to Pasino Brdo where you were to get

6 wood, how far is Spicasta Stijena from it?

7 A. Oh, I don't know that. I don't know, 300 metres, something like

8 that. But we pluck up the courage, let's go, let's get it. It's nearby.

9 Q. You said that -- you said that you knew that they were soldiers of

10 the army of Republika Srpska where Spicasta Stijena is. Can you tell us

11 how did you acquire that information? Did you see the soldiers of the

12 army of Republika Srpska?

13 A. I saw them one night at 10.00. I heard some quarrel, some

14 argument, and I looked and I saw two. What they were talking about, I

15 don't know. Only I heard the noise, and I could hear how the two of them

16 were quarrelling. I couldn't make out what it was about. I couldn't

17 understand what they were saying, but I could see them arguing, and I

18 tried to look at them through the binoculars, and then I said, forget the

19 binoculars, I won't look at them.

20 Q. So you tell us you saw two men. What were they wearing?

21 A. They had those rifles over their shoulders, and one had a beard.

22 Q. When you went to Pasino Brdo to collect firewood, would you see

23 soldiers of the BH army there?

24 A. No. No.

25 Q. Did you ever, during the conflict in 1992, 1993, 1994, in the part

Page 4189

1 of the city that you lived in, did you ever come across soldiers wearing

2 olive-green uniforms with weapons?

3 A. No, no, I did not see a thing. No troops. Yes, women,

4 civilians.

5 Q. You say that you came across women. Can you tell us where were

6 men?

7 A. Well, I also met men and women, but civilians. You don't know who

8 they are, where they are, what they are.

9 Q. You told us --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could I just ask you how much time you

11 need. I'm not quite sure whether this courtroom will be used this

12 afternoon. I notice that you are approximately four or five minutes the

13 examination-in-chief took.

14 Madam Registrar, do you know if the courtroom will be used this

15 afternoon? So if you would keep within your time limits, and I know it

16 has been very long already for the interpreters. But if you would be able

17 to finish in a couple of minutes, I'd like to know.

18 Please proceed.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 Q. Mrs. Ocuz, can you tell us, in relation to your house, how far

21 from it is your neighbour Mejra's house?

22 A. I don't know. Not far. Not far. I don't know. I never measured

23 it. How can I know it? All I know is that it's not far.

24 Q. Can you tell us, you said that a sniper fired from Spicasta

25 Stijena. Can you tell us what is a sniper?

Page 4190

1 A. How do I know? It's a soldier. A sniper. How do I know?

2 Q. Did your husband and your son have a rifle or some other weapon in

3 the house?

4 A. No, no, no. No, believe me, because they were not -- they were

5 not prepared. I suppose they would have been given some, they would have

6 been called up, I guess, if they were prepared for that.

7 Q. Can you tell us if your house is on the street, Sedrenik, or is it

8 off the street?

9 A. It's on Sedrenik Street.

10 Q. Can you tell us if there were some shelters, some protection,

11 against the snipers?

12 A. Only some sacks, some bags, nothing else.

13 Q. Can you tell us, apart from that occasion when your house was

14 fired at as you tell us on that 7th of October, 1993, did you hear whether

15 there was any gunfire in that part of the town that day?

16 A. I don't know about that. I wasn't asking. I didn't ask.

17 Q. Can you tell us at what time of the day was it when it happened to

18 you? You said lunchtime, but...

19 A. Well, lunchtime, afternoon, 5.00, 4.00. Because my son came and

20 said -- friend came to say that dad was not well so will you come home.

21 Q. Are you telling us that day you had gone to work and you had to

22 come back from work?

23 A. That's right. I had to return earlier because my friend had come

24 to my -- had gone to my son in the shop and told him, "go and find your

25 mother by whatever means you can and tell her that your dad is feeling

Page 4191

1 bad." So a doctor came and they took him to the hospital, and he was

2 given some medicines, and then we returned home.

3 Q. Are you telling us that that day when it happened to you, that

4 that day you had returned home earlier and that your husband was then

5 taken to the hospital?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us at what time -- you say that it happened to you

8 around 1700. When was your husband taken to the hospital?

9 A. I don't know exactly what time it was. Well, as soon as I came

10 back, and I came back earlier. And then I said -- I took him to the

11 hospital and sat down to have lunch with my son. And my neighbour took me

12 back in the car. My son locked up the shop, and the neighbour said "I'll

13 drive you. You can't walk." And because we were afraid.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a moment.

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, did you only -- only one more question. In the part of

18 Sedrenik, of that neighbourhood where you lived, could you see any

19 trenches there?

20 A. No, no, no. No, no, no. I didn't see any military trenches. I

21 only saw those gullies which were made for us when we went to get the

22 wood. That is all that I know.

23 Q. Can you tell us, do you think that there is a difference between

24 trenches and gullies?

25 A. Well, I think there is, yes.

Page 4192

1 Q. Did you, in the vicinity of these gullies or when you walked by,

2 did you ever see any troops there?

3 A. No, no, no. Never. We only saw them next to Pasino Brdo. That

4 is where we went for firewood, so if the fire starts, then we just take

5 cover in those gullies.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very

7 much. The Defence has no further questions.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, is there any need to re-examine the

9 witness? I'm also looking at the clock.

10 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President. We have no further questions.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You have no further questions.

12 Mrs. Ocuz, it might have taken you a lot of courage to come to

13 The Hague. Perhaps an airplane was quite --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My heart aches. My soul aches. But

15 I came because I know what is in my head and in my heart. And what I

16 remember and what I know, I will smart from it to the end of my life.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine that it must be very difficult for

18 you because all the events of those days are very emotional to you. We

19 fully understand that. And therefore, we specifically thank you for

20 having come to The Hague, having answered all the questions the parties

21 have put to you, for taking the courage to do all this. You well

22 understand, it's very important for a Court to hear from witnesses who

23 have been present at the days and the places where the conflict happened,

24 to hear from them what it actually was. So I once again would like to

25 thank you very much --

Page 4193

1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: And I hope you have a safe trip home again. Thank

3 you very much.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I am taking this as a souvenir,

5 as a souvenir.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

7 Mr. Usher, would you please lead the witness, then, out of the

8 courtroom.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Unfortunately we have no final information yet from

11 the detention unit as to what will happen tomorrow morning. I therefore

12 would like to ask the parties to be prepared tomorrow to continue. If

13 possible, of course we'll finish the cross-examination of Mrs. Jusovic. I

14 want to add in that respect that we've seen that she is rather vulnerable,

15 she is fragile at this moment, and I would like you to keep this

16 specifically in mind whenever it will come to a continuation of the

17 cross-examination tomorrow morning.

18 If not, we'll see what we'll do. If there are any witnesses, it

19 will depend on the presence of General Galic we can proceed or not. But

20 before we adjourn, first we have to take decisions as far as the admission

21 of evidence is concerned. I think we have just one document, Madam

22 Registrar. Would you please guide us.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1716, discharge form from Sarajevo

24 University Clinical Centre in B/C/S; P1716.1, the English translation.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And may I remind the parties about one map with

Page 4194

1 a clear scale. And from now, it's not questioning witnesses about

2 distances any more, but it's just measuring the distances.

3 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m., to

5 be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of February,

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