1 Friday, 1 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Since we have resolved the technical problems, as far as I
10 understand, we can now concentrate again on the facts and on the legal
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I was informed that you would like to address
13 the Chamber. Please proceed.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're quite right,
15 Mr. President. Good morning to all of you. The reason that we wanted to
16 address the Chamber in the absence of the witness is as follows: Here, on
17 my left-hand side, I have, by way of example, just only one binder, which
18 I lift here with some difficulty because of its weight. It is a binder
19 which we received from the Prosecution, and it contains a considerable
20 number of documents whose nature is strictly military. The documents
21 originate from the so-called Bosniak army, that is, the army of Sarajevo,
22 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We have received about five
23 binders of this size. I don't want to show them all to you. I think you
24 can see it from your distance. All of these binders are exclusively
25 written in the Serbian language, in its Bosnian version. Thank you for
1 the interpretation.
2 The problem we're faced with is the following: These documents
3 have not been translated into one or the other working languages of the
4 Tribunal, that is, neither in the language of Shakespeare or in the
5 language of Voltaire. Consequently, it is not possible for the teams to
6 examine, in a rapid fashion, the contents of these binders.
7 Mr. President, the reason I'm raising the issue now is because in
8 Geneva, we have people who work in my rear base, if I may call it that
9 way, and it is not possible for them to read all of these documents
10 because they're very time-consuming, and we cannot do it properly in view
11 of the significance of our task. We will produce shortly some of the
12 documents which I believe will clarify the problem, but the Defence is
13 sure that there are other documents as well, and we just wanted to draw
14 your attention to this particular problem, which is only an example. And
15 speaking of Article -- that is, of Rule 90(H)(ii), I have to say that it
16 is not always possible to present evidence simply because the evidence has
17 not been presented to us in either of the working languages of the
19 There is another reason why I'm raising this issue. Three weeks
20 ago we had a meeting with the Prosecution, and we made an urgent request
21 to be able to obtain from the Prosecution other military documents that
22 they have, in particular, maps originating from the general staff, from
23 the headquarters, military instructions, military orders which were
24 allegedly given by various military formations or specific brigades and
25 other such units. To this date, Mr. President, we have not received such
1 documents, in any language, which means -- and I make note of that. The
2 Defence makes note of that and I personally wish to make note of that --
3 that we, in view of such circumstances and in these conditions, we cannot
4 protect the rights of the accused in a proper manner. We believe that
5 this constitutes a violation of one of the fundamental principles of
6 justice, that is, the right to fair and expeditious trial.
7 This is just to indicate what difficulties the Defence is facing
8 at the moment. We managed to find several pieces of evidence within these
9 binders that we requested translation of, so we called the Prosecution at
10 about 2100 hours, but we didn't find anyone, so we simply propose to have
11 unofficial translation, that is, we supplied the booths with the relevant
12 document; however, if these documents should be tendered later on in the
13 proceedings as exhibits, we would like to make mention of the fact that we
14 were forced to translate these documents overnight, very urgently, and
15 that is the reason that we might have certain purely translation problems.
16 This is an extremely important issue, Mr. President, because, as
17 you will be able to see shortly -- and I can tell you right away in order
18 to be loyal -- these documents prove the existence of four or five
19 checkpoints in the squares that we have mentioned during the proceedings.
20 It is possible that we will have a written translation soon, and the fact
21 that these translations have not gone through the appropriate services of
22 the Tribunal has to do with the obvious lack of organisation, that is,
23 that we were not able to organise this. And this is mainly the reason why
24 I'm raising this as a problem.
25 Having said that, we are ready to proceed with the
1 cross-examination of the witness; however, with the caveat that I have
2 just exposed. Thank you very much for your attention.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is there -- would you like to respond?
4 MR. IERACE: I would, Mr. President. Mr. Piletta-Zanin has not
5 identified the documents as being documents provided pursuant to the
6 reciprocal disclosure requirements or documents which are on the exhibit
7 list. That is a very important distinction. If they are documents which
8 we have provided pursuant to Rule 66, that is, pursuant to our obligations
9 under reciprocal disclosure, then he can have no complaint against the
10 Prosecution. Rule 66(B) simply requires the Prosecutor to permit the
11 Defence to inspect the relevant documents. The Prosecution has gone one
12 step further and chosen to provide the Defence with copies of the
13 documents which they seek. It is certainly not incumbent upon the
14 Prosecution to translate the documents it has in its possession which fall
15 within the ambit of Rule 66. The Prosecution has the same difficulty as
16 the Defence. If we had a translation, then we would provide it under Rule
17 66, although we are not required to do that.
18 Secondly, my friend refers to what he calls an urgent request made
19 three weeks ago. That request was for certain orders from the ABiH. We
20 have provided such orders. The request from the Defence dates back many
21 months, and I have informed the Defence that if we come across any other
22 orders which fall within the ambit of Rule 66, then we would provide them.
23 My friend complains that he was unable to contact us at 9.00 p.m.
24 I assume he means 9.00 p.m. last night. I don't know if we could be
25 expected to be here at 9.00 p.m. without any prior notice from the
2 I am grateful that my friend is complying with Rule 90(H)(ii), and
3 of course we will do all that we reasonably can to assist in the relevant
4 material being placed before Prosecution witnesses in cross-examination.
5 If he has documents which he wishes to put before the witness today, then
6 certainly the Prosecution has no difficulty with copies of those documents
7 being made available to the interpreters so that we can all have, in
8 effect, an on-the-spot translation. Thank you.
9 I should add, Mr. President, that whilst the Prosecution naturally
10 maintains that the Rules of the Tribunal should be complied with, that
11 applies in respect of Rule 90(H)(ii), in my view, in relation to
12 instructions which the Defence has at the time that the witness gives his
13 or her evidence and the material which the Defence has, and where the
14 incidents in the witness's evidence are contained in statements which have
15 been disclosed to the Defence prior to the giving the evidence, then
16 clearly, prima facie, the Defence has had an opportunity to seek
17 instructions. And when the events, such as a bombardment of the city of
18 Sarajevo for some six hours, or the firing of tanks, five tanks, for 20
19 minutes, is the nature of that evidence, then one assumes that there would
20 be no difficulty in obtaining instructions from the accused in relation to
21 those incidents. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ask a few questions to start with. The
23 binders you're talking about, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when did you receive
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would have to
1 check the date. I cannot tell you at this point. It must have been
2 either in October or in November last year, but off the top of my head, I
3 cannot tell you the exact date.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, do I understand that these binders we are
5 talking about are not exhibits you'd intend to use during the examination
6 of witnesses?
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if -- they haven't been clearly
8 identified by my friend, but I assume they are ABiH documents which were
9 disclosed to the Defence on the 23rd of October, 2001, pursuant to our
10 reciprocal disclosure obligations.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I ask you another question. Have you
12 got any idea on how -- since when these documents were in your possession,
13 or was it because of the reciprocal obligations you, well, more or less
14 brought into by the Defence? Could you give us any idea on why it was in
15 October that you disclosed these documents?
16 MR. IERACE: I'll check the date, Mr. President, and come back to
17 you. I don't know off the top of my head.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do I understand you well that you say we
20 identified certain documents we'd like to use during the cross-examination
21 in these binders, and that you're not able to have them translated
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. You have
24 seen one binder. There are five or six binders of this kind. These are
25 the binders that contain technical documents. There is a number of
1 abbreviations, and it is very difficult to read these documents even in
2 Serbian, so we obviously need translations.
3 Let me also mention that we have not received the documents that
4 have been indicated and which are connected with the 1st Army Corps, the
5 BH army. These documents are extremely important and are of a vital
6 significance for the Defence, and we have been waiting for them even
7 before the month of October 2001.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you seek leave to have them translated on
9 the spot while using them during the cross-examination? Apart from the
10 other problems you have with the documents, but ...
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I think
12 that it would be much wiser when it comes to these documents that they be
13 translated officially. I think that it is one of the rights of the
14 accused here to have this done for him, and also for your benefit. If
15 these documents should be tendered to you, they have to be properly
16 translated, especially in view of the fact that they are very technical in
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please indicate where in the Rules
19 you find a basis for your submission that documents disclosed to you on
20 the basis of a reciprocal disclosure obligation should be translated when
21 they have been given to you, or is it just the general fairness of the
22 trial you're referring to?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It is a
24 general principle related to the conduct of the proceedings, and not only
25 the application of some specific provision. However, I may invoke in this
1 context Articles 20 and 21.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Well, it's clear to the
3 Chamber what your submission is, that they should have been translated
4 anyhow and that at least, since they're not translated at this moment, you
5 seek at least leave to have them translated, and you take the position
6 that they should be translated officially anyhow if the Chamber would like
7 to -- if they are presented to the Chamber.
8 I'd like to draw your attention at least to extensive case law of
9 this Tribunal as far as translations are concerned, and the basic rule is
10 that all of the documents that have been presented and accompanying the
11 indictments, that they should at least be translated. But there is a
12 variety of case law on what other documents should be translated.
13 I think your submission is quite clear to us at this moment. We
14 do see the difficulties you are facing. I would suggest that we bring in
15 the witness and we'll see whether -- when you want to give any documents
16 to the witness and what to do with it, whether they will be tendered into
17 evidence or not.
18 Mr. Usher, would you then please -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before we bring
20 in the witnesses into the courtroom --
21 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, Mr. Usher, please.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Before the witness
23 comes in, could Mr. Ierace answer the question relating to the black
25 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand that that's what he indicated
1 yesterday, that he would find out about the photographs which are referred
2 to as black boxes, and that he would inform you. I do understand from
3 your observation that the black boxes have not been opened yet.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm surprised to hear that question.
5 I showed Mr. Piletta-Zanin, at the first break after he raised the issue,
6 the photographs and explained to him that the problem was that they had
7 been electronically copied.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. IERACE: That's why they came out black. And that they would
10 provide him with proper copies of the photographs. He then said to me
11 that his real concern was another issue to do with the document. That
12 issue was that there was mention on the first page ever there being two
13 places where incidents had taken place, and he wanted that clarified. And
14 I've been making some inquiries about that. So I say formally now for the
15 benefit of the Trial Chamber that I've shown the photographs to my friend,
16 and we will provide proper copies of them.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. There
18 seems to be a very serious misunderstanding here. I saw the originals of
19 these photographs, and we have relatively clear copies of these
20 photographs. However, as regards the incidents on the square, the Rade
21 Koncara square and the other one, Zavnobih Square, concern -- these
22 incidents involve two projectiles, two shells. However, the photos which
23 were shown on two occasions, 430 and 431, it seems they relate only to one
24 of these squares.
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... dealt with during
1 cross-examination once they have been tendered into evidence. Yes?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Mr. Ierace, any additional observation?
5 MR. IERACE: I hesitate to prolong this debate, because
6 Mr. Kucanin is anxious to get away, but according to my transcript,
7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin has just admitted that he has relatively clear copies of
8 those photographs.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. IERACE: Which begs the question: Why is he complaining about
11 a version of the photographs which came out black? Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think everything that has to be said during this
13 debate has been said by now.
14 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.
15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Merely
17 for the booths. I use the word "objective" and it was translated as
18 "headquarters." When I say "objective," then the interpretation should
19 be "target." Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm sure, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that this remark
21 will be worked in the transcript when it will be redacted during the late
22 evening hours.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Kucanin. Should I say "dobar dan."
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You also did hear me in the other language in the
2 translation. Yes. Mr. Kucanin, you still had to wait for another half an
3 hour, due partly to technical problems, partly to legal problems we had to
5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin will now continue the cross-examination. May I
6 remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you made the
7 day before yesterday.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 WITNESS: MIRSAD KUCANIN [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]
12 Q. Good morning, Witness. Thank you for returning to this
13 courtroom. I'd like to resume from where we stopped, more or less,
15 You said in your statement, in your evidence before this Chamber,
16 speaking about two squares, that it could be that a civilian in a uniform
17 had passed -- had crossed them. I'm quoting it from yesterday's
18 transcript, and a question which I asked about the presence of uniformed
19 individuals, and I believe that your answer was that there was nobody
20 wearing a uniform. Is that correct?
21 A. I did not see anyone wearing a uniform.
22 Q. Witness, how can you explain what you said before this Chamber,
23 that you had seen, and I'm quoting you, civilians in uniform?
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'd be grateful if my friend could
25 indicate the page where the witness said that.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have already
2 said. It was 10:56:12. We had a non-edited transcript, so this is the
3 only indication that I have. And I am quoting from yesterday's text.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please -- since I have difficulties finding
5 it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please quote literally so that we have
6 the exact wording.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will do so,
8 Mr. President, but I believe, speaking from memory, that the text was [In
9 English], "A citizen in uniform may have passed by."
10 [Interpretation] [In English], "A citizen in uniform may have
11 passed by."
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I've just done a quick search on the
14 word "uniform," and the first apparently relevant entry that comes up is
15 page 81, line 9, where Mr. Piletta-Zanin said in cross-examination to this
16 witness -- excuse me.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Exact quotation, I've found
18 it, and the --
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm in your hands.
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you would -- you found the line, so if you read it
21 literally, then -- I have difficulty, since I have the other numbering of
22 the pages, so I'm somewhere in 4,000 and --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm very sorry
24 about these problems. We were working on the text which we had at the
25 time. And the day before yesterday -- sorry, the 10:05:16, the answer was
1 the following, and I'm quoting:
2 "[In English] A citizen [Interpretation] and I repeat for the
3 booths: [Previous translation continues]... [In English] In uniform may
4 have passed by, but there was no military formation there."
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please also repeat the question preceding,
6 or don't you have it at this very moment? It is my recollection that the
7 witness left open the possibility that a civilian in uniform or whatever
8 person wearing a uniform might have passed by, but that he did not see any
9 military formation at that time.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Precisely. That is what I
11 just quoted, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
13 Mr. Ierace?
14 MR. IERACE: Yes. Now that my friend has identified it as the day
15 before yesterday, I have the passage. On my copy it's page 4521, that's
16 page 4521, line --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat that. 4,000 you said and
18 then --
19 MR. IERACE: 521.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to find it. 4521.
21 MR. IERACE: And the question begins at line 8.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I have the page by now. I'll read it. The question
23 was: "Did you notice any soldiers in the vicinity when you arrived?" The
24 answer was: "I didn't notice any particular formation. A citizen in
25 uniform may have passed by, but there was no military formation there.
1 Later on I learned, but the name escapes me at the moment, but nothing
2 that would indicate that there was any military presence in the area, no,
4 That was the literal wording of what I find in the transcript.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, this is precisely it,
7 Mr. President.
8 Q. And we are coming back to this point now, Witness. But briefly,
9 when you speak about a citizen in a uniform, what do you mean by that?
10 A. It could have been a postman. Will you ask me a specific question
11 if you want a specific answer from me.
12 Q. Very well. So it could have been a postman, it could have been a
13 station master, it could have been a policeman, and it could have been a
14 soldier; is that it?
15 JUDGE ORIE: May I just first clarify.
16 Mr. Kucanin, did you tell the Court that you saw a civilian that
17 passed by, or did you tell the Court that there might have been a civilian
18 passing by, but you were not aware of any military formation? I mean, did
19 you see someone in a uniform or did you not exclude the possibility that
20 there might have been someone in a uniform?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, quite. I did not see any
22 military there, but I also allowed the possibility for a citizen wearing a
23 uniform could have passed by. I did not see that, I did not register it.
24 I simply allow for that possibility.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You allow for the possibility, but you did not tell
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the Court that you saw someone in a uniform, but you will not exclude that
2 there might have been one person; is that true?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Witness, to refresh your memory, and briefly, if you know: When
6 did you see a unit which you called Kulin Ban.
7 A. I never saw it.
8 Q. Witness, thank you. As a policeman, you said that you went around
9 Sarajevo every day, that you travelled around Sarajevo every day; is that
11 A. Well, yes, if the nature of my assignment required that.
12 Q. And so when you discharged your duties, you had the possibility of
13 frequently passing in the vicinity of the Rade Koncara Square or the other
14 square which was nearby?
15 A. No. During the war, outside my work, I didn't go to any of these
16 squares unless on my way home or back, because one had to take care of
17 one's own life. So I never used any free time to go around except when I
18 had to do some shopping for the family.
19 Q. But I'm speaking not about your leisure time; I'm speaking about
20 your time on duty.
21 A. I would come to -- yes, I did that, in those cases when I
22 conducted investigations. And when did I have to do with this square when
23 this incident happened, that is, when I went in there --
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... next question. I
25 hear that the --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I do understand. Sorry [Interpretation] Thank
2 you. My apologies to the booths.
3 Q. Witness, how many times and with what frequency, more or less, did
4 you go to that area, to Alipasino Polje, during the war?
5 A. To Alipasino, I could have gone there on about ten occasions
6 during the war, and it was always related to my job.
7 Q. Thank you for this answer.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd now like
9 the witness to confirm to us that he never saw, with his own eyes,
10 military equipment or military premises in that area.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interests of accuracy, since
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin has referred to two locations - that is, Rade Koncara
13 Square and the broader area of Alipasino Polje - could he please clarify
14 for the witness if he's now asking if he ever saw military premises in
15 Alipasino Polje during the war.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I shall do so
17 gladly, reminding you that you yourself quoted precisely a moment ago what
18 the witness had testified about.
19 Q. My question, Witness, has to do with the two squares that we are
20 talking about, and my second question, the Alipasino Polje area.
21 A. "Alipasino Polje" is a very broad term. It encompasses a large
22 part of the city.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters should kindly like to request
24 the Chamber to note that the interpreters and the court reporters cannot
25 do their job properly if there are several simultaneous speakers.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the English booth asked --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Okay. Yes, I do understand. I'm very sorry
3 for that. I do --
4 JUDGE ORIE: You are even speaking simultaneously, which is a
5 great problem for the interpreters, so would you please pause. And may I
6 ask Mr. --
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: I hear that the French booth is having the same
9 problems. Please proceed.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I do not want to create
11 any coalitions against me, Mr. President.
12 Q. Witness, so will you please start your answer with telling us
13 about the two squares. Yes or no?
14 A. Did I -- no, sorry. Did I see any military formation or its base
15 on one of these two squares? Was that the question?
16 Q. Yes, indeed. Very precisely. You already gave us "no" to that
17 question, but will you please be more precise.
18 A. I did not see them.
19 Q. Thank you. Thank you for this explanation.
20 Now, Witness, will you tell us if, in the area around these two
21 squares, there were any military facilities, to your knowledge.
22 A. I really do not remember.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to
25 show two documents to the witness. It is two documents about which I have
1 just communicated, which we were supplied by the Prosecution, and more
2 precisely, from the binder that I referred to this morning. Their numbers
3 are as follows, I mean their ERN numbers --
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... able to see it.
5 And do you have copies for the booth?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. As an exception, which
7 has become a rule, yes, I did so.
8 May I ask the usher to take them? May I ask for the ERN number
9 for the transcript? Yes, thank you. So we have the document, which is
10 02056300, and then we have the second one, 02056280.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just for the sake of
12 practical -- you're going to tender these documents in evidence?
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're required to prenumber them, and of
15 course once they have got your Defence Exhibit number, everyone will be
16 able to read what ERN numbers they are in and we'll be able to read it as
17 well if they're on our desk.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It will be done as of the next
20 THE REGISTRAR: D54 and D55.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me be precise,
22 Mr. President, that with regard to the first document which we shall be
23 producing, the handwritten additions were made in this document, but it
24 seems that the original of the document also has these additions here,
25 that is, that they were done by the person who was doing the documents.
1 These additions were not made by the Defence. And I would like to add
2 that we made some ten copies and that three copies were given to the
3 booths, so that I reserved seven copies.
4 Mr. President, may I continue?
5 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd just wait until the Chamber has received the
6 copies as well.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D54 is the document with last digits in the ERN 300.
9 D55 is the document with the last three digits of the ERN number 280.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. And would you please, whenever
11 you confront the witness with any part of it, first indicate to us,
12 although we cannot read it, which part we're dealing with and then ask the
13 interpreters to translate the specific part.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. I
15 will do so. I'm talking about the first document now, which is D54. We
16 shall show the document to the witness, and we'll go to item 2 on the
17 first page of the document. That is why we have not -- why we did not
18 translate, Mr. President, anything except this item 2. I believe that you
19 have this translation, but I must repeat that it was an improvisation.
20 Q. Witness, will you please read aloud item 2 of the document that
21 you have before you and which, on the left-hand side, has in handwriting
22 "STRPOV," and so on, that is, "strictly confidential." "STRPOV" has in
23 this upper left-hand corner?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Thank you for the interpretation of this
1 Q. Witness, will you please read first which is -- who is the sender
2 of the document. Can you please read it out.
3 A. I don't think that this has anything to do with an incident that I
4 investigated, and I see no reason for me to read this document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kucanin, the Defence has the right to ask you
6 questions also if it's outside the scope of what you told the Court about
7 your investigations if it is relevant for the case and if you would have
8 any knowledge of it, so would you please answer the question of
9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 On the other hand, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if this document is not
11 known to the witness, I don't know whether there would be any problem if
12 you'd say, "Could you agree that this document comes from --"
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
14 Q. So, Witness, you agree with me that this was -- that this document
15 was signed by a commander who is called Mustafa Dzebo. This is what I see
16 on page 2. Yes or no, please. We shall save time in this way.
17 A. Was he -- did he sign it? I don't know. But what is typed here
18 is Mustafa Dzebo.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that that's the answer
20 you could expect under these circumstances.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I fully agree with you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is this a document you understand the witness has
23 seen before or --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, but you assume he had seen it before or
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. I'd like only this
3 witness, without wasting any more time, I want this witness to read item
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- aloud and with proper
7 pronunciation, and that is all I want him to do.
8 A. Well, I'd do it if there was any mention of the Rade Koncara
9 Square and the Zavnobih Square. I said a moment ago that Alipasino Polje
10 is a very large area.
11 THE INTERPRETER: We are sorry. There were again several
12 simultaneous speakers. Interpreters and court reporters cannot follow.
13 JUDGE ORIE: This time I used my priority button. If we all speak
14 at the same time, no one will know what words have been spoken by anyone
15 else, so I urge to everyone that we wait not only until either the witness
16 or counsel has finished what he wanted to say, but also to wait until the
17 translation has been made.
18 Mr. Kucanin, you don't have to worry about what could happen to
19 you. The only thing Mr. Piletta-Zanin is asking you, to read the number
20 2, and we'll later find out what the relevance is. Would you please do
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, why can't then Ms. Pilipovic
23 read it. But I will do so, even though this is a military -- this is an
24 army document and I just don't want that it turns out that I have to do
25 something with the army or something. But I'll read it:
1 [As interpreted] "To raise to the highest degree of alertness, to
2 raise to the highest degree the alertness of the observers and observation
3 points Brijesce Brdo 2, the MTB Alipasino Polje 3 MTB, the Hostel of Nuns
4 1 MTB, and other observation points set up at the level of battalions and
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. In order not to
7 waste any more time, Madam Pilipovic will actually read the other
8 document. However, at this point I should like to ask the witness whether
9 he can agree with me that there was at the Alipasino Polje battalion
10 number 3 of the Motorised Brigade, that this battalion was located at the
11 Alipasino Polje, according to this document.
12 Q. Yes or no?
13 A. Of course I don't agree. I can tell you about anything that I
14 saw. You can ask me about any barracks inside the town, but if you ask me
15 to agree that there were there, at Alipasino Polje, and I myself didn't
16 see them, there's no way I can agree with you.
17 Q. Witness, I merely asked you whether this document indicates the
18 presence of the 3rd Battalion at Alipasino Polje; yes or no?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you showed a document to a witness
20 which seems to indicate clearly what you'd like the witness to confirm.
21 The witness has answered that he cannot confirm, from his own knowledge,
22 that the military presence, as stated in this document, was there. So I
23 don't think you could repeat that question and ask him more or less,
24 almost force him to tell us anything that he's not aware of.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I agree, Mr. President. Very
1 well. I will move on to the next document.
2 Q. Witness, would you please have a look at the second document. My
3 co-counsel, Madam Pilipovic, will read the relevant passages for the
4 booths, and I should like to ask you to follow the reading of this
5 document, please.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness, do you have in front of you a document emanating from the
8 command of the 102nd Motorised Brigade, number 02/4-22?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you read on the document under item 1, communication centres?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Item 2, on command post of the 102nd Motorised Brigade in
13 Alipasino Polje continuously operating in connection with PTT Sarajevo and
14 the communication centre of the main staff of the armed forces of the
15 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina." Is that what you can read on the
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Point 4: "On command post of the 1st Motorised Brigade in
19 Alipasino Polje area operating in connection with PTT Sarajevo and the
20 station communication centre of the Main Staff of the armed forces of the
21 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
22 Can you read this under item 4?
23 A. Yes, I can.
24 Q. In the last line, under point number 2,: "The command post of the
25 logistics battalion in Alipasino Polje area continuously operating in
1 connection with PTT Sarajevo and the station communication centre of the
2 Main Staff of the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
3 Can you read this on this document?
4 A. There is a portion that is handwritten here on the document.
5 Q. Yes. We indicated that the handwritten notes were made by the
6 author of the document, and the Court will be able to judge the
7 authenticity of the document. All I want you to tell me now is whether
8 you can read this on the document.
9 A. Yes, I can.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for my co-counsel.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd be grateful if my
14 friend could indicate where those read passages were from.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be happy to do so,
16 Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to make it short, I see the last page.
18 I have two pages in English. On the last page it starts in the left upper
19 top, commander 102 [indiscernible]. Do you have that, Mr. Ierace?
20 MR. IERACE: I do, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
22 MR. IERACE: Yes, I do.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Am I right in my understanding,
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that there has been read from that page those parts
25 which appear under [indiscernible], the relevant parts?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're quite right,
2 Mr. President. The items that have been read aloud are passages
3 concerning Alipasino Polje. That is how on page 1, in the second item, in
4 the second point, you have this mention of Alipasino Polje, and another
5 one, and then the last one, which is not perhaps fully legible, and there
6 was one more which is somewhere in the middle of the text, but I think
7 we'll be able to locate it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is that true, Mr. Ierace?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The fourth one, the fourth
11 MR. IERACE: It's not entirely clear to me at this stage,
12 Mr. President, but I don't want to take up cross-examination time.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. I appreciate it.
14 Q. Witness, I just make note of your answers in connection with this
15 document. Would you now be so kind and tell us whether Rade Koncara
16 Square was, according to your knowledge, divided in three stages, three
17 locations, A, B, and C?
18 A. According to my knowledge, yes, it is. Alipasino Polje is divided
19 in so-called phases.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. Witness, do you know whether every one of these phases, A, B, and
23 C, had some kind of police premises, including also those of the reserve
24 police force?
25 A. I'm not sure that every one of them had. However, we had call
1 signs in various areas of the town.
2 Q. Witness, let me now ask you whether your team took photographs on
3 the occasion of these two shelling incidents on Rade Koncara Square and
4 the other one. Did you always take photographs?
5 A. I believe they did. That was their duty.
6 Q. But you no longer know for sure whether the photographs were taken
7 in respect of both squares?
8 A. Yesterday we spoke about various duties during the on-site
9 investigation, and I mentioned the fact that all traces had to be
10 sketched, marked, and photographed.
11 Q. May I therefore conclude that photographs were taken in respect of
12 both squares?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order not to
16 waste time, my colleague, Madam Pilipovic, will present the photographs,
17 the famous black boxes, and I will now move on to another incident. Let
18 me just confer with my colleague.
19 Q. Witness, I should like you to now focus on the incident which
20 happened on the 20th of July, 1993. First of all, I should like to know
21 what you were doing during the period between the 20th and the 28th of
22 July, 1993.
23 A. I cannot tell you exactly what I was doing during that period of
24 time. I don't remember.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Witness, you told us that each time there was an incident of this
3 kind, your team would quickly move on to the scene of the incident; is
4 that correct?
5 A. If there were fatalities, yes, if you're referring to my team of
6 the public security centre, yes. If we were properly and promptly
7 informed of the incident, yes, that would always be the case.
8 Q. Witness, speaking of the incident that I just mentioned, that is,
9 the one which occurred on the 20th of July, 1993, I should like to know
10 why the report was made only eight days later.
11 A. The day before yesterday I think I spoke about the fact that it
12 was the citizens from this neighbourhood of Sarajevo had reported to us
13 that there was frequent firing on their neighbourhood, and they believed
14 that the firing position was a Serb house which was located some hundred
15 metres away from them. And of course they requested protection from the
16 police. In order to verify the authenticity of their claims, we selected
17 two of our best ballistics experts --
18 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Witness, but my question is as
19 follows: You told us that whenever there was an incident of this kind,
20 that is, involving fatalities, you would intervene right away. In this
21 particular case, you intervened almost ten days later. Why this delay?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Your question was, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, why the report
23 was made only eight days later, and that's a different question from
24 whether the witness intervened eight days later. Both questions are
25 perfectly right, as far as I'm concerned, but they are different
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I understand your remark, Your
4 Q. Witness, why was this report made eight or nine days later, that
5 is, eight or nine days after the event, in view of what you stated, that
6 is, that you would always intervene immediately in cases where an incident
7 involved fatalities?
8 A. Yes, and I also stated, I also added: If we had been promptly
9 informed of the incident.
10 Q. May I therefore conclude from your answer that you were not
11 promptly and timely informed of the incident?
12 A. The moment we received appropriate information, we visited the
13 scene of the incident. I was about to explain to you how it happened, but
14 you interrupted me.
15 Q. I'm really very sorry for having interrupted you. You arrived,
16 therefore, at the scene of the incident nine days later; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. The only reason being that the neighbours failed to inform you of
19 the incident earlier on?
20 A. Yes, because no one informed the police station, the relevant
21 police station, of the incident.
22 Q. So that was the only reason for that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you very much for being clear.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to show the witness another document, D56. The document is in English.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist
3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think I have it in front of
5 me. Mr. President, we are still talking about the same type of activity,
6 but this time it involves UNPROFOR forces. The document contains page 583
7 and it relates to the 13th of July, 1993. It was a Tuesday. I don't
8 think I've had the opportunity of giving the document to the booths. I
9 don't know whether they have it. If not, we can perhaps put it on the
10 ELMO so that -- in order to avoid problems with interpretation.
11 Mr. President, there are seven copies. I believe they will be
12 distributed in a moment. There are enough copies.
13 I suppose I can continue, Mr. President?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Witness, you have a report in front of you. Would you please
17 focus on the interpretation, what I'm now going to read.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will read page 2,
19 Mr. President, item B, which bears the title "Local reported events." We
20 have a number here, 2225, and the text goes as follows:
21 "[In English] Alija Izetbegovic appealed for international help in
22 a letter to UN Security General Boutros Boutros Ghali and other
23 officials --
24 I think there's a quote in the text. I'm indicating for the
1 "[In English] That the Serbian forces plan a general attack on the
2 town itself--"
3 I'm quoting in the text, and I think the word that follows is
4 "said," "said Mr. Izetbegovic." And the quote of Mr. Izetbegovic goes
6 "[In English] And stop this act of aggression" the word that comes
7 after is probably "he," "he said."
8 "[In English] Seemed to be designed to increase pressure on ABiH
9 to accept ethnic partitioning." [Interpretation] Waiting for the end of
10 the interpretation.
11 Witness, as far as you can remember, is it not correct that during
12 this period of time, intense attacks were being conducted around and at
13 the city?
14 A. I really cannot help you with that. I'd love to, but I'm not
15 sure. I don't want to make any guessings. As for the time period that
16 you indicated, there is really nothing that I can state with certainty.
17 Q. To your knowledge, isn't it true that during the night between the
18 21st and the 22nd -- I'm sorry, between the 20th and the 21st, violent
19 combats occurred between the parties, and isn't it correct that Bosniak
20 forces regained territory during that night?
21 A. I'm sorry, I can't be of any assistance.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't want to
23 read this from the document, because we will lose too much time, however,
24 I wish to state for the record that, under 2226, UN observers reported
25 night attacks by BH troops, the attacks which happened precisely during
1 the night when the incidents that we have been talking about occurred.
2 Mr. President, I should like to tender this document. This would
3 be D57, I think. That is, I would like to tender another document, D57, I
4 believe, that is, page 592 --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let me just ask you: Just for the
6 sake of the record, you indicated some facts which seem to be in this
7 document. Were you referring to 2226, which starts with: "Outside
8 Sarajevo, the Serb attack on Mount Igman, overlooking the city and UN
9 controlled airport was reportedly amongst the fiercest in the area"? Is
10 that the part you --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour. I was
12 referring to the end of this paragraph.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the end of the paragraph also deals with
14 Mount Igman. Is that the part that you --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your
16 Honour, yes.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the document does not bear an ERN
18 number, at least the version that I have. My friend says that he wishes
19 to tender it. He's asked the witness some questions in relation to it.
20 I'd be grateful if my friend could indicate if this document came from the
21 Prosecution, and if so, what the ERN number is.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] A very pertinent question
23 indeed, Mr. Ierace, but all I can tell you is that it is the same type of
24 document as the ones that were previously produced by yourself and that
25 you yourself accepted. You told us that there are certain difficulties
1 with the ERN numbers. Sometimes there's only one, sometimes two,
2 sometimes even three ERN numbers. So I don't think I'm able to answer
3 your question at this point, but I don't think that it is as important as
4 what this document may prove.
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, a simple indication as to whether or
6 not it came from the Prosecution would be helpful.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will respond to that
8 question as soon as I'm able to, as soon as I'm perfectly sure about what
9 I'm saying.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps if you'd try to do this during the
11 break, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. It very much appears to be an annex to the
12 report of the committee of experts, so if that would be of any assistance.
13 Another thing I'd like to ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin: You said,
14 "But I don't think that it is as important as what this document may
15 prove." I have still some problems. You're presenting a document, you
16 ask a question to a witness who says, "I don't know anything about it,"
17 then you quote a few lines and you leave out that it is outside Sarajevo
18 on Mount Igman. Well, that's what it says, at least, at the beginning.
19 But --
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, not only that,
21 Mr. President --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just wondering: I've got no problem in accepting
23 that this might be true or not true, but what's the relation with the
24 testimony of this witness?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have this
1 other document which will be produced shortly, and you will be able to see
2 that the combats which were defined by President Alija Izetbegovic as an
3 overall attack against the town, an overall attack --
4 JUDGE ORIE: I do not mind if you want to prove this, but I do not
5 see the relation with the testimony of this witness. I will be quite --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but Mr. --
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- accept to hear whatever as in evidence on this
8 document by a witness you'll present in this case. You're perfectly
9 entitled to do so. But what, as a matter of fact, happens, more or less
10 now, is that you present a document to a witness who says, "I do not know
11 anything about what is in this document. I don't know the document and I
12 cannot confirm, neither deny, because I don't know it." And you present
13 this as evidence, which is, at least, not very usual.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this witness
15 testified that he was not at the scene of the incident shortly after the
16 incident, just because he had not been promptly informed of the incident.
17 I am stating some other potential reasons for that, and he told me that
18 that was the only reason. We wish to prove that during that night,
19 between the 20th and 21st, there were intense combats, so intense that
20 President Izetbegovic appealed to the International Community. We would
21 have understood it if mention had been made of this.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me be quite clear. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you say if
23 the witness cannot testify on a certain document, since he doesn't know
24 anything about it, then -- this is something the Chamber has to consider,
25 whether you then tender that document into evidence not to prove that this
1 is a document the witness doesn't know anything about, but from the
2 content of what is in that document. That's your -- now I understand you
3 better what -- why you want to tender this in evidence and why you want to
4 have this put in evidence. That's proof of the -- that the events
5 described in this document, although the witness doesn't know -- has
6 testified that he doesn't know anything about these, are events that took
7 place. At least that's perfectly --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's 10.30. We'll have a break until 11.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We do apologise for resuming late. It had also to do
13 with that we'd like to consider part of the issue I raised at the end of
14 the session that ended at 10.30. There's no reason at this moment to come
15 back to it, but please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 I will change the channel so as to be on the same channel with the
18 English transcript.
19 Q. Witness, I'd like to go back to what we were talking about a
20 moment ago. To your knowledge, during the period between the 20th and the
21 28th of July, 1993, would it be correct to say that there was considerable
22 fighting in Sarajevo?
23 A. I cannot say.
24 Q. Witness, you therefore cannot say either if the fighting went on
25 during the night as well?
1 A. You ask me a question to which I have no answer.
2 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. You went to investigate nine days
3 after the event. Do you know if during that period anyone could touch
4 this or that indication, trace?
5 A. I suppose so. It was eight days.
6 Q. And therefore, would you agree with me when I say that if various
7 traces could be interfered with, then the ballistic conclusions that you
8 performed may not be all that correct, all that precise?
9 A. All I know is that the bullet which was fired from an arm we found
10 deep in the couch, and on the basis of that we could establish directly
11 the direction from which the bullet had come from.
12 Q. Witness, were you aware of the existence of a building in that
13 area which was called Zetra?
14 A. Of course I was.
15 Q. Why, Witness, do you say "of course" that I was?
16 A. Why? Because Zetra was one of the symbols of the city of Sarajevo
17 which the enemies generously destroyed and razed to the ground.
18 Q. And who was in Zetra? I apologise. What was in Zetra?
19 A. I wouldn't be able for tell you. All I know is that Zetra was a
20 sports facility, that it contained a sports hall. What else was there, I
21 cannot say.
22 Q. Do you know if Zetra was used as an army depot?
23 A. No, I don't know.
24 Q. Witness, you were a policeman. Does the word "kazan" tell you
25 something? Does it ring a bell?
1 A. If that is part of the investigation that I did, I can talk about
2 that, but as for the kazani, I cannot really. I don't know if that is
3 part of the investigation. I can talk about that at length, if you like,
4 but not today. On some other occasion, I shall be ready to do so. And
5 please, do not forget that I was a professional who performed --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kucanin, what questions will be put to you is
7 first decided by the Defence. If there's any reason not to allow a
8 question to be put to you, either the Prosecution will object or the Court
9 will intervene. But the question just was whether the word "kazan" did
10 mean anything to you, so if it is so, please tell us. If not, you don't
11 have to tell us a lot unless you're asked to do so. But the question was
12 just whether the word "kazan" does ring a bell.
13 A. Very well. I'm merely afraid that it will provoke a debate, and I
14 am not quite ready to do it. Perhaps if I say something that is not quite
15 right, perhaps. But kazan, yes, it does tell me something. It is a
16 vessel and it is also a part of Sarajevo in the streets on Trebevic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Don't worry. There's no need for any debate.
18 If you'd just answer the questions, that's good enough. If you're not
19 sure about what is the correct answer, just indicate that you either don't
20 know or you're not sure or that you're sure as far as your answer is
22 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you,
24 Mr. President. Just to clarify the transcript, the word is kazani, but we
25 are talking about the same thing.
1 Mr. President, before I give the floor to Ms. Pilipovic, I'd like
2 to produce and tender into evidence two documents which are of the same
3 nature as those that we've already seen. These are documents 591 and 592,
4 and they have to do with the day of the 27th of July, 1993. If we tender
5 these -- if we are tendering these, it is because the fighting that we
6 were talking about lasted until that time, and it seems that it was only
7 after that that the police could produce their report. And it is for this
8 reason that we wish to tender the document.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let me be quite clear on this
10 issue. You are producing documents, when you tender them into evidence,
11 documents of which we still do not know the source, but I have some
12 feeling that they might be annexes to the report of the Committee of
13 Experts, which relate to fighting or at least combat activities in
14 different areas, but that's for sure during that period of time. The
15 Chamber has no difficulties in accepting these documents, but you should
16 keep clearly in mind that whenever you are suggesting that these documents
17 are clear evidence of another reason than the reason given by the witness
18 for arriving only one week after the incident, at the spot of the
19 incident, of course that's not the probative -- the potential probative
20 value of these documents. You could imagine a lot of other explanations
21 for that. I'm not going to guess on that. These documents indicate that
22 at the places mentioned in these documents, according to those who did the
23 investigations, on request of the Committee of Experts, if these are the
24 Committee of Experts annexes, that they establish that there was heavy
25 combat activities at these periods of time.
1 We are not in a specific common-law court; we are in a mixed
2 court. So therefore, the rules of admitting evidence might be a bit
3 different from what our common-law friends are used to. But I'd just like
4 to explain to you that admitting these documents into evidence means that
5 this Court will consider these documents, at least if there's no other
6 objections, of which I did not hear, that we'll consider these documents
7 to see what probative value they have and we'll then, of course, look to
8 the content of the document, and whatever suggestions you make on what
9 kind of explanations it could give, well, of course we'll consider
10 everything, but we'll first concentrate on the content of the documents,
11 but I now see that there are no explicit explanations for another reason
12 that the investigators came only after one week on the spot of the
14 So with this explanation from the Chamber, and looking at
15 Mr. Ierace, he doesn't seem to object, but we are willing to admit these
16 documents in evidence.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do object, but --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. IERACE: -- the course we have taken so far is to consider
20 objections after the witness has left --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand, but since the point came up --
22 MR. IERACE: That's the reason I haven't said anything at this
23 stage, and I'm very mindful of the fact that the witness is very anxious
24 to get away, and I thought --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we first continue and deal with it at a
1 later stage. But so then we know that you are going to tender these
2 documents into evidence. If they could be distributed and if
3 Ms. Pilipovic could continue the cross-examination right away while the
4 usher is doing his distribution. Yes.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No interpretation].
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kucanin.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Can you tell us, and I believe you already confirmed that on the
12 10th and the 12th of November, and I believe you confirmed this, you gave
13 a statement to the OTP investigators.
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and witness please break
16 between question and answer.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And when you were asked, when you gave them your particulars, did
19 you say --
20 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters asked to make a pause. I do
21 appreciate your willingness to finish the cross-examination as soon as
22 possible, but the translators also have to do their work.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll do my best.
24 Q. Did you, in your statement that you gave, say that you were a
25 policeman and then, in brackets, criminal inspector? You are not getting
1 the interpretation?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell us what kind of education you have?
4 A. I completed all the schooling that was necessary for that
5 particular job.
6 Q. Which job? The job of a policeman or a criminal inspector?
7 A. I'm an inspector -- a general criminal inspector. That is my
9 Q. What does -- what kind of education, what kind of training, does
10 one have to undergo to obtain that title?
11 A. Any school -- what do you call it? Specialisation. What do you
12 call it? It is only now that there is a faculty of criminal law in
14 Q. But can you tell us what kind of schools did you complete to
15 obtain the rank of a criminal inspector?
16 A. The general criminal inspector?
17 Q. That's right.
18 A. Well, I completed a higher school and a special course for the
19 general criminal inspector in general crime investigation.
20 Q. So you became a criminal inspector on the basis of a course that
21 you attended; is that it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And how long did this course take?
24 A. Well, I attended seven or eight such courses, and this one lasted
25 six months -- six or seven months.
1 Q. When? When I say "when," I mean what year did you attend and
2 complete this specialised course?
3 A. For the general crime investigation, I believe it was 1992.
4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kucanin, you told us that you performed the
5 on-site investigation on Zavnobih Square; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Did you notify the relevant investigating magistrate about this
9 A. Since I conducted this investigation, I think we could not do so
10 or had he empowered us, now, after all this time, I cannot remember.
11 Q. But does one have to, when performing such investigations -- is
12 the presence of the investigating magistrate necessary?
13 A. Yes, he should be there, but there is an article, there is a
14 provision which says that in the absence of a judge, then the competent
15 person from the Ministry of the Interior, from the police, does it.
16 Q. In other words, you are not sure if you notified the investigating
18 A. All I can say, that either we could not look at him, so he was not
19 present, or he was busy elsewhere and therefore empowered me to perform
20 this investigation. But whatever was necessary to be done in terms of the
21 investigation was done.
22 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you tell us who was the ballistics expert
23 in your team? I'm referring to what you said earlier, that you always had
24 a ballistics expert along. Now, who was the ballistics expert that day?
25 A. I do not know. Can the Chamber please help me? Am I allowed to
1 mention any names?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you know the name of the ballistic expert
3 that assisted you, you can tell the Court, yes.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Can you tell us how long had (redacted) worked with you
7 as a ballistics expert, I mean in your department?
8 A. Well, they are the criminal technology department. They are not
9 part of us. But on various occasions we did investigations together.
10 Q. When you say "on various occasions," you did investigations
11 together, does that mean that prior to this incident which happened on the
12 9th of November, you had already performed on-site investigations with
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell us when was that prior to the 9th of November? Was
16 it September, October?
17 A. Oh, come. I don't know.
18 Q. But in any event, you said that it was before the event which
19 happened on the 9th of November.
20 A. That we had worked together?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
23 [Prosecution counsel confer]
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I seek a redaction of the transcript
25 in relation to the name mentioned by the witness.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. IERACE: Perhaps we could go into private session so I can
3 explain why.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll do so.
5 Madam Registrar, could you please -- yes, we are in private
7 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are in open session again. Please proceed,
19 Ms. Pilipovic.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Witness, the individual that you described as ballistics expert,
22 was he with you at both on-site investigations, both at the Zavnobih
23 Square and Rade Koncara Square?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You have told us that you made a report, the investigation report,
1 in respect of both incidents, Zavnobih Square and Rade Koncara Square
3 A. I must have, because I was conducting the investigation.
4 Q. Witness, according to you, the person whom you described as
5 ballistics expert, was he a well-experienced professional who could act as
6 ballistics expert in this incident?
7 A. All crime technicians, including the individual you mentioned, had
8 completed appropriate courses and training in order to be able to perform
9 this work.
10 Q. You are now telling us that all members of your team had merely
11 completed courses that were necessary for the proper conduct of this type
12 of work.
13 A. I was referring to crime technicians. They all completed
14 specialised courses in addition to their normal educational background. I
15 don't know exactly what kind of degrees they have, but they all went
16 through additional appropriate courses where they were trained to perform
17 their job in war circumstances.
18 Q. What kind of school is necessary for an individual to receive the
19 title of a ballistics expert? Is a simple course sufficient?
20 A. I'm not sure. I couldn't tell you that.
21 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kucanin, could you confirm for us that a member of
22 your team took photographs of the site, both at Zavnobih Square and Rade
23 Koncara Square?
24 A. I know that that was his duty. Now, I cannot remember at this
25 point whether I actually saw him take photographs, but that was his job.
1 He should have done it.
2 Q. Witness, in the report that you made on the 10th of November, 1993
3 concerning the event which had taken place on the 9th of November, 1993,
4 the report that you yourself signed - and with the permission of the
5 Chamber, perhaps I could give it to you, since I want to put to you one
6 portion of the report and ask you whether what it contains is correct.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I also have a copy of
8 the report from my colleague, but I should like first the witness to
9 identify the report and then to proceed.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it the original report in B/C/S,
11 Ms. Pilipovic?
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The original, Your Honour, is in
13 B/C/S, but I have the English version as well. I have supplied the
14 interpreters with both versions. However, with your permission, I would
15 like to read only a portion of the text which can be found on page 2 of
16 the report.
17 Q. Witness, is this the report that you made concerning the incident
18 of the 9th of November, 1993?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Just to be sure, Ms. Pilipovic, is this the same
20 document as Exhibit 1840?
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's already distributed. That could have
23 been shown to the witness and that would have saved us three minutes of
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I note that there is a redaction to be
1 made from that exhibit, and if at some point they could be returned and
2 that redaction will be made.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, or would you prefer to have it admitted under
4 seal, which is also a possibility?
5 MR. IERACE: Yes, I'd prefer that, in fact.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you then please give the original
10 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. On page 2, Witness, of the document that is now in front of you,
13 there is a text that I am now going to read, the one starting with the
14 word "the tail."
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you confirm for us that these are the contents of your report:
17 "The tail section of the shell was not found because members of the army
18 had taken it away. But according to eyewitness statements and the
19 assessment of the crime technician, it was a 120-millimetre shell fired
20 from the direction of Nedzarici."
21 Did you write this in your report?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Could you now tell us on the basis of what type of information you
24 normally establish the direction of the firing, that is, the position
25 where the shell came from.
1 A. I cannot tell you that because that's not part of my job.
2 Q. Can you then tell us what was the information that you had that
3 enabled you to write down in your report that it was a 120-millimetre
4 shell fired from the direction of Nedzarici?
5 A. I received these data from my crime technicians, on the basis of
6 the remains of the shell, and he was able to establish the direction on
7 the basis of his expertise and also on the basis of traces. It's not very
8 difficult. You know, in Sarajevo, even little children could determine
9 that after a while.
10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Kucanin. In respect of this incident,
11 that is, in respect of the incident which took place on Rade Koncara
12 Square, did you also make a similar report, that is, the report of the
13 on-site investigation?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. In your archives, do you have the report made following the
16 incident which took place on Rade Koncara Square?
17 A. You mean me personally?
18 Q. Yes, both you personally and officially.
19 A. I personally don't have such documents, but they can be found in
20 the official archives.
21 Q. Can you tell us the reason why the report concerning Rade Koncara
22 Square was not provided to the investigators of the Tribunal, in view of
23 the fact that you personally conducted that particular investigation as
25 A. No, I cannot. I'm really disappointed with the fact that there is
1 no photo documentation either, and other reports as well.
2 Q. Witness, is it your testimony that both the photo documentation
3 and the investigation report for Rade Koncara Square were provided by you
4 to the investigators of the OTP?
5 A. No, that's not my testimony.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
7 like to show the witness the photographs which we received from the
8 Prosecution, and we would like the witness to identify for us on these
9 photographs what square they are related to.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Are you going to tender them into evidence? Yes.
11 Have you prenumbered them?
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this is
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I was already --
15 MS. PILIPOVIC [Interpretation] 57.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I was already at D57, so I'd suggest that D59 would
17 be a better idea, in order to ... Would you please take care. It takes
18 the numbering -- it takes the registrar again and again half or a whole
19 minute to prenumber the documents before they will be distributed, and
20 right at the beginning I asked the Defence to prenumber their exhibits.
21 So let's hope for the better next week.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there's a name which appears on the
24 first sheet of this document, which should not be displayed on the ELMO.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please cover it by a yellow sticker at this
1 moment so that later we can admit it under seal.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 A. Witness, do you have this photograph in front of you? No. I'm
5 JUDGE ORIE: They still have to be ...
6 Mr. Ierace --
7 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Ierace, is it, please, on the front cover? On
8 the front cover.
9 MR. IERACE: On the front cover, but down at the bottom. It's the
10 middle name.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
12 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You see, Mr. Kucanin, we're taking proper care now
14 that the name is not visible.
15 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, you have now a number of photographs in front of you.
18 What square do they depict?
19 Will you please put the photograph on the ELMO so that everyone can see
20 it. Witness, can you tell us now what square is depicted on this
22 A. I believe that this is Rade Koncara Square.
23 Q. Thank you. Do similar photographs exist for Zavnobih Square?
24 A. They should.
25 Q. Do you have them in your official records, in your files?
1 A. If you were able to receive these photographs, then I'm sure
2 others must be there as well. I don't know exactly where they are. I no
3 longer work for the MUP, but I'm sure that they could be found there.
4 Q. Thank you. You state in your investigation report that the tail
5 section of the shell was taken away by members of the army. Which army
6 did you have in mind?
7 A. Well, the BH army.
8 Q. Is it your testimony that before you visited the scene, members of
9 the BH army had been to the scene and had taken away the tail section of
10 the shell?
11 A. That would have been the case, according to the statements of the
13 Q. Yesterday you testified, in respect of this area and in respect of
14 Dobrinja, about the firing positions, that is, where shelling and sniping
15 came from, and you indicated for us on a map the positions of the VRS; is
16 that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are you telling us now that your assessment was made on the basis
19 of your knowledge about the existence of the positions of the VRS in this
21 A. I believe I told you yesterday what kind of information I had when
22 I made this conclusion.
23 Q. Can you now confirm that you were aware of the fact that the VRS
24 positions were in that area?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Since you are telling us that you knew where the VRS positions
2 were in this area, did you also know where the BH army positions were in
3 the area?
4 A. Are you referring to the trenches?
5 Q. I'm referring to the front line held by the BH army, in
6 particular, Dobrinja, Nedzarici, and Alipasino Polje areas.
7 A. No, I was not aware of the exact location of the front line. I
8 actually never went to the front line myself.
9 Q. In the course of your work as a police officer, did you become
10 aware of the fact that the 5th Motorised Brigade was stationed in
11 Dobrinje? And I'm referring to the 5th Motorised Brigade of the army.
12 A. That it was based in the Dobrinja neighbourhood?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. I know that the area belonged to the 5th Motorised Brigade. As to
15 its base, I didn't know its whereabouts. I don't know where they were
17 Q. Do you know that the 5th Motorised Brigade consisted of five
18 motorised platoons?
19 A. I cannot confirm that, because I'm really not familiar with the
20 type of military formations.
21 Q. Mr. Kucanin, can you confirm that the members of the Ministry of
22 the Interior, whose employee you were at the time, that is, that the
23 members of the MUP in Sarajevo were members of the armed forces of the BH
24 at the time?
25 A. I'm really afraid to make a mistake. I'm not sure that the entire
1 police force was part of the armed forces. I'm really not sure. I
2 wouldn't like to make any guesses here.
3 Q. Witness, in the course of your work as a police officer at the
4 public security station for the Centar neighbourhood, did you have any
5 contacts with your colleagues in Novi Grad and Novo Sarajevo, public
6 security stations?
7 A. Well, I worked for the Security Services Centre, but these were
8 public security stations. But I did have contact with them.
9 Q. When in contact with these stations, did you know that their
10 members were mobilised and were sent to the front line from time to time
11 when on duty?
12 A. I think that I said yesterday or the day before yesterday that a
13 certain number of reserve police troops transferred to the BH army
14 troops. Whether they kept their uniforms as reserve police officers, I
15 don't know.
16 Q. Can you tell us if a military commander of a brigade deployed in
17 the area of Sarajevo, a BH army brigade, would be able to issue an order
18 to the public security stations - in particular, I'm referring to Novo
19 Sarajevo and Novi Grad stations - an order to form companies to be sent to
20 the front line? Do you have knowledge of any such orders?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. Yesterday you testified about the existence of a special unit of
23 the BH MUP.
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Can you now tell us what the strength of this formation was?
1 JUDGE ORIE: I see some movement on the screen as far as the first
2 page of the photo documentation is concerned. I think, Mr. Usher, could
3 you please take it off, if it's not needed, at least the first page.
4 Yes, please proceed.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Witness, do you know what the strength was of this special MUP
7 unit of BH?
8 A. I don't know the exact number. I would say that there were about
9 30 of them. You mean at the beginning of the war?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Thirty, approximately.
12 Q. Is it true that there was a special unit which was part of this
13 other MUP special unit which was called Bosna?
14 A. Well, that is the unit that I just described, the one that
15 consisted of 30 people.
16 Q. Can you then explain to us what the special unit Lasta was?
17 A. I believe I already told you that. The Lasta special unit was
18 established as part of the centre of Security Service in Sarajevo, and it
19 was under the command of this centre. I believe I spoke about the
20 objectives and the intentions of this unit.
21 Q. The special unit Seva, which was known as a special sniper unit,
22 did it also -- was it also active as a MUP special unit?
23 A. No, I don't know that. That's the first time I hear about that.
24 Q. Is it your testimony that you have never heard of the Seva sniper
25 unit which was active in the territory of the town of Sarajevo?
1 A. This is the first time that I hear the name Seva and that I hear
2 of the existence of a sniper unit.
3 Q. Witness, can you tell us if you follow your media and read the
4 press which comes out in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Can you confirm for us -- can you answer if you read a newspaper
7 or a paper called Oslobodjenje, which comes out in Sarajevo?
8 A. From time to time.
9 Q. Did you perhaps in that newspaper, because you said you read it
10 from time to time, did you read there an interview with Zoran Cegar,
11 deputy commander of the special unit Seva, swallows?
12 A. I did not read it. I knew Zoran Cegar. He was deputy commander
13 of the Bosna special unit. This is the first time I heard of Seva, or the
14 commander of a company. This is the first time I hear about Seva.
15 Q. Mr. Kucanin, can you answer if within the special MUP unit of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, there was a group called Seva?
17 A. I cannot answer, because I do not know. I do not know how the
18 special unit was structured. I knew some individuals, those who
19 communicated with me directly when they guarded us when we performed our
20 work. That is when we were out to catch criminals, we would call them to
21 help us and guard us. Otherwise I knew nothing about their structure.
22 Q. Witness, can you answer if in your work, between April 1992 and
23 August 1994, you investigated cases when civilians sustained injuries or
24 died from sniper wounds received from the barracks Marsal Tito, from
25 the -- and from a number of other buildings?
1 A. The first time I hear that.
2 Q. Mr. Kucanin, can you answer us if -- what is a sniper to you?
3 A. To me, a sniper is a rifle with a lens -- now, what do you call
4 it? With which I presume it is easier to target. Believe me when I say
5 that I never held one.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague draws my
7 attention to the fact that the transcript does not include 11:53:48, that
8 the witness did not answer, what was Mr. Zoran Cegar.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could you please repeat the place so
10 that I can find it.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 11:55:09, line 9, my
12 colleague tells me.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please repeat -- I've got something
14 different, but I might be in the transcript of yesterday.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Mr. President, I read commander of the -- and
16 we don't have anything more.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think that the clock differs from
18 computer to computer.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. IERACE: And therefore the page and line reference would be
21 more appropriate.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you have a page and a line, Ms. Pilipovic.
23 I was in the transcript of today.
24 Could you please assist us and find the -- since you raised the --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I see that in my text,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Mr. President, in front of line 9, page 55, it does not precisely say the
2 object of which he was the head or the responsible force. So I read what
3 I see. We do not have the answer here.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to -- you testified before that you
5 knew Zoran Cegar, and you said he was a deputy commander of what exactly?
6 It's not in the transcript, so we have difficulties to read it back.
7 Would you just repeat what you said before. That will do.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I did -- that to this
9 moment, I did not know. I had never heard that he was a deputy commander
10 of Seva unit. I knew him as a deputy commander either of the special unit
11 called Bosna or as one of the company commanders in Bosna.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Thank you for your clarification.
13 It's the technical part that leaves us ...
14 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Witness, you told us what to you was a sniper. You said that a
17 ballistics expert always came out with you to the site where you performed
18 the investigations. Is that correct?
19 A. That was the crime technician who always accompanied me.
20 Q. Witness, yesterday you said that you always had a ballistics man
21 with you during sniper activities.
22 A. Yes, on those occasions there were ballistics experts.
23 Q. And when you investigated shellings?
24 A. There would be a team of crime technicians. I don't know whether
25 that means a ballistics expert or some other expert. What I say in my
1 note is "crime technician."
2 Q. In other words, you are telling us that when you performed the
3 investigations of shelling incidents, it sufficed for you that somebody
4 was a crime technician?
5 A. Right. Well, let me explain it to you. Ballistics experts would
6 come with me, but what I write down is a crime technician. I do not
7 always specify that that is a ballistics expert.
8 Q. Mr. Kucanin, yesterday you told us that you knew and you marked on
9 the map the positions from which the artillery opened fire; is that
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Can you answer whether you have any knowledge that in the area of
13 Hrasno Brdo, Mojmilo hill, in the area towards Alipasino Polje, one
14 motorised brigade -- that it was active in that area?
15 A. I really am not aware of all those military matters. 101. I'd be
16 happy to tell you, but I just don't know. I believe it was quartered in
17 Viktor Bubanj barracks. That's what I know about it.
18 Q. Witness, are you telling us that when performing your
19 investigations, and I'm specifically referring to shelling, between April
20 1992 to August 1994, you were not aware of the positions of the BH army?
21 A. No, I was not, and why should I be?
22 Q. If I tell you that the positions and demarcation lines between the
23 two armies -- specifically, in Nedzarici and Dobrinja -- were 50 metres
24 away, would you agree with me?
25 MR. IERACE: I object to that, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
2 MR. IERACE: Given the witness's last answer, the question just
3 asked can have no probative value.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And apart from the last question,
5 Ms. Pilipovic, the witness told us before that he never had been at the
6 front lines, he said then, which I understand is approximately the same as
7 the demarcation lines, especially when it's 50 metres away. So I think
8 the witness told us several times that he has no knowledge, so therefore I
9 sustain the objection.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, but the Defence
11 needs to note that the witness, in view of his title, in view of the
12 information that he gave us yesterday during the examination-in-chief, and
13 when he marked the positions of the army of Republika Srpska, today is not
14 telling the truth and refuses to say where the positions of the BH army
15 were, because during this proceedings, we heard very many witnesses, and
16 it is not acceptable that a witness, in view of his -- that is, title, and
17 the distribution of the incidents as he marked them does not know where
18 the BH army positions were. But it is up to you to judge that and I will
19 continue with my examination.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, let me be quite clear. Yesterday the
21 witness indicated quite clearly what was the source of his knowledge of
22 firing positions. That would mean from his investigations and not because
23 he had visited these sources. If you would like to ask the witness
24 whether not from his own knowledge but from other information he knew the
25 exact positions of the demarcation lines, that's fine, but every question
1 until now as the own knowledge of the witness concerning front lines and
2 demarcation lines, he consistently answered that he was not there and
3 therefore had no direct knowledge. So if you want to ask about indirect
4 knowledge, please do so, but please make clear what you're asking.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Witness, yesterday you spoke -- you said that the incident when a
7 girl called Elma Jakupovic was killed, you said that you recorded that
8 incident on the 27th of July and that you wrote in your official note that
9 you wrote that the front line was 300 metres. On the basis of what did
10 you enter this information in your information? [sic] now, this is P2790
11 exhibit. The document is 0023407. I apologise. This is official note.
12 We said the number, but the incident happened on the 22nd of July 22nd.
13 Witness, on the basis of what information did you in the official
14 note that was done on the 22nd of July, 1994, on the basis of what did you
15 [indiscernible] front line was 300 metres? Then it is not the Jakupovic
16 case. I said it was the incident of the 22nd of July, on Melinka Trikovic
17 [phoen] Street?
18 A. Yes, you just now said this. It was on the basis of how I
19 assessed the distance as the crow flies, and I explained this yesterday.
20 Q. Did you, when you wrote this official note, have any knowledge
21 that in the direction of this line as the crow flies about which you said
22 that you assessed it, were you aware that in that direction were both the
23 positions of the BH army and the army of Republika Srpska?
24 A. Well, it is a difficult question. My task was to establish from
25 which direction had the bullet come. I really do not know where the
1 positions of the BH army was and the other one. If that building is in
2 the territory under the control of the BH army, then it came from there.
3 My task was to establish the direction from which the bullet had come,
4 rather, not my task, but the ballistics expert's task.
5 Q. Can you tell us --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there seems to be a degree of
8 confusion here. I'm not too sure whether it's just with the witness or
9 with my friend. The exhibit P2790 refers to two separate incidents, and I
10 have only led evidence in relation to one of those incidents. The report
11 comprises two paragraphs. The first paragraph refers to the incident that
12 we've led evidence about, indeed, it's scheduled sniping incident. The
13 second paragraph has no relevance to that incident, and I have not led
14 evidence of it. It's simply there because it happens to be on the same
15 page. I notice that in his answer, the witness refers to a bullet. In
16 fact, if one looks at the second paragraph, the incident involved the -- a
17 hand grenade. So perhaps my friend, in fairness, could make clear to the
18 witness that when she refers him to a mention in his official note of the
19 front line being 300 metres away, that she is not referring to the
20 incident that the witness has given evidence about. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I see the
23 official note which was done, and its latter part was also drawn by the
24 witness, Mr. Kucanin. And in relation to that part, it is -- inside
25 relation to this part that the witness is asking these questions of the
1 witness [sic], because he signed this official note. And he notes here:
2 I agree that it is the latter part of his official note and that my
3 learned friend did not ask any questions of the witness about it, but in
4 order to check the credibility of this witness and his knowledge, I am
5 fully entitled to show to the witness that part of the official note which
6 was given the Defence and which the evidence believes is relevant in
7 examining this witness. It is precisely the part of the note which he
8 signed and which refers to the incident in the area of Sokolje. Yesterday
9 the witness spoke about Sokolje and about the activities of the army, that
10 is, military of Republika Srpska, from the direction of Rajlovac.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, just for my clarification, are you
12 referring to the statement in view of your questions to the witness
13 whether he had any knowledge of confrontation or demarcation lines, and
14 you want to test the reliability of that? Is that what I understand?
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence wishes,
16 by asking this question, to check the credibility of this witness and his
17 knowledge about front lines, and that is why I'm showing this part of the
18 official note --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I was asking whether you do that. Please
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Witness, in your official note of the 22nd of July that you
23 signed, and it looks as one single content, you also noted that on
24 Flobodoski [phoen] Square in Sokolje, 300 metres away from the front line,
25 a person was victimised. You said here that the front line was about 300
1 metres. On the basis of what did you write this in your note?
2 A. Will you please -- can I ask you to read this whole part?
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have it here in
4 English and my distinguished colleague will then read it out.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will quote the exhibit,
6 which was produced, which is P2790.1.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it was indicated that you would
8 read it. Please proceed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. At the end of this
10 paragraph, referring to Mr. Kurtovic, and now I quote:
11 "[In English] By the explosion of the hand-launched grenade in
12 Sokolje, about 300 metres from the dividing line between the aggressor and
13 at that moment he wasn't on duty in his unit but was walking as a
15 [Interpretation] End of quote.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kucanin, the question was how you established the
17 approximate distance of 300 metres in this case, where you earlier
18 indicated that you had no knowledge of front or demarcation lines. Could
19 you explain that to Ms. Pilipovic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to have this whole
21 passage read out. I found this wounded person in the hospital when they
22 went to collect the particulars about the wounded boy who is described in
23 the upper -- in the first part of my note. I did not -- I was not doing
24 any on-site investigation, otherwise I would have made a separate official
25 note. I guess that I obtained this information from that wounded man when
1 I went there.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. So, Witness, you are telling us -- you are confirming that you
5 made official notes even based with -- on the basis of a conversation with
6 a person who might have been injured on site but that you didn't go out on
8 A. I explained yesterday what is the official note, what is the
9 record, and what are the minutes.
10 Q. I understood that. I'm asking you whether you included
11 information in your official records without checking the information and
12 only on the basis of the conversation with a person who possibly -- the
13 sentence is not finished. How did you make the official notes?
14 A. Official notes are made on the basis of conversations, the
15 interviews, on the basis of knowledge, on the basis of hearsay. All of
16 this is part of the official note. But that specific official note I made
17 when I visited the hospital and when I received the information from the
18 wounded person.
19 Q. Did I understand you well when you said that, among other things,
20 official notes were also made on the basis of hearsay?
21 A. Official notes, and then on the basis of the official note, one
22 starts to check the information. That is, then the investigation is
23 conducted to verify it, and that is why I said the grapevine, hearsay.
24 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you answer if you and your service
25 received official notes from public security centres in municipalities in
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you, on the basis of those official notes which were made by
4 members of public security centres, municipalities, then drew up -- you
5 draw up your reports?
6 A. We could not draw up reports on the basis of somebody else's
7 official notes, or at least my service and myself.
8 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether, within the framework of the
9 city public security department, there was a department which received the
10 official notes of the municipal public security centres?
11 A. I don't know. This is a pretty muddled question to me. I don't
12 really know what you mean.
13 Q. Specifically, if an incident happens in the territory of the Novi
14 Grad municipality, do members of a team which does the on-site
15 investigation after the incident is reported, has been reported, submit to
16 the relevant, and as the higher instance, public security centre of the
17 city, would they submit to them their official notes?
18 A. If they go out to perform the on-site investigation, they put
19 together the record and the official note and then they send it to the
20 relevant authority, the court or whoever, and their service -- I'm not
21 their superior, but they may send a dispatch to the relevant authority
22 which is above them, informing them about this.
23 Q. So you are telling us that your service and part of this whole --
24 all these parts of the service in the information system never received
25 the reports from Novi Grad, Novo Sarajevo, Stari Grad, Centar, their
1 notes, that they were delivered to somebody else?
2 A. I really don't know. Your questions are very strange. If someone
3 made a note and sent it to me, then my chief, my superior, would receive
4 this note and in the right-hand corner would write Mirsad Kucanin and then
5 give me this note to check it and act upon it, yes. But your questions
6 are so broad that I really cannot answer yes or no.
7 Q. Witness, I think I was specific. If an incident happens in the
8 territory of the Novi Grad public security centre.
9 A. Public security station.
10 Q. Right. Is some record -- are some minutes made, is some record
11 made, is an official note made as submitted to you? Are you notified
12 about that, you or somebody else in your service?
13 A. No, not me personally, but the security centre is informed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you want to reply immediately to
15 what Ms. Pilipovic says, but you need to make a pause, otherwise the
16 interpreters -- otherwise we cannot follow you, and we're interested to
17 hear what you have to tell us.
18 Please, could you now answer the question. You started, I think,
19 answering the question.
20 A. Personally, I do not receive anything directly, but the Security
21 Services Centre in Sarajevo is notified of any event that happens in its
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you answer: Your records, your official
25 notes about incidents, did you forward, did you send them, forward them
1 on, and who did you forward them to?
2 A. Well, when I finish my note, I send it, together with the rest, to
3 everybody else. I send it -- I give it to -- I submit it to my chief. My
4 chief goes through it, makes corrections, if there are errors, there are
5 not, it's all right, it's not all right, and then it's forwarded on.
6 Q. Can you tell us, where is it forwarded on?
7 A. The relevant court.
8 Q. Witness, are you telling us that all the official notes and
9 records about the investigations that you did between April 1992 and
10 August 1994 and which you signed, that all of them were submitted to the
11 relevant court?
12 A. If in this particular case of a war crime against the civilian
13 population, if the Court was responsible for that case, then they were
14 sent, submitted to the Court. I did not keep them. I submitted them to
15 my superiors.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I'm looking at the clock. May I first
17 ask you one question: How much time would you expect still to need for
18 the continuation of your cross-examination?
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will do my best to
20 be as short as possible, to then -- within the time that still remains we
21 can complete the rest, if my colleague has some questions.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we yesterday discussed that if, whenever
23 possible, we would like to see whether the examination of this witness
24 could be concluded today, and that means that there should be some time
25 for the re-examination as well and questions for the Judges. Could you
1 give us an estimate, approximately, on how much time you would need?
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Half an hour, Your Honour. I
3 think about 30 minutes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll try to cut it shorter, if the
6 witness is efficient.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Ms. Pilipovic, we should all be efficient.
8 We'll resume -- we'll adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00. We'll then
9 resume -- and would you please try to finish your cross-examination by a
10 quarter past 1.00, please. That would make 25 minutes. Apart from that,
11 we'll be certainly here on time, but since all the clocks in this building
12 indicate a different time, we'll try to be here on time.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Ierace.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, earlier I referred to Witness Q.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. IERACE: It may be that it is Witness AD. I will clarify
19 that --
20 JUDGE ORIE: This is a protected witness?
21 MR. IERACE: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm sorry. One other thing. I
24 understand there's a late application to be made in respect of a witness
25 next week for protective measures. Mr. Stamp will make a oral application
1 a few minutes before we adjourn, if these convenient.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have not much time today, as you know, but
3 we'll see to it.
4 Before you resume, Ms. Pilipovic, I'd like to make one remark.
5 Could everyone please keep in mind that we have to pause, because we are
6 in a chain. You're answering questions, the witness -- you're putting
7 questions to the witness, the witness is answering, the interpreters have
8 to translate it, the stenos have to write it down and it appears on the
9 transcript. If it goes to quick, somewhere, someone in the chain.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I fully
11 understand the situation. I will do my best to bear that in mind.
12 Q. Witness, yesterday at 1.25, you told us that there was within the
13 MUP yesterday some internal settlement of accounts.
14 A. No.
15 Q. What did you have in mind when you told us that in 1993 the police
16 had some kind of settling of accounts within the MUP?
17 A. It is the police belonging to the MUP that dealt with various
18 criminal groups in Sarajevo.
19 Q. Can you tell us what groups there were? Do you have any knowledge
20 about that?
21 A. Yes, I do, but it will take me at least half an hour to explain.
22 Q. Could you please just briefly tell us the names of those groups,
23 if you know.
24 A. One such group was a part of the 10th Mountain or some other
25 brigade, a portion of the 9th Brigade. I don't know the exact names, but
1 I know that it was a very extensive action, and the objective of which was
2 to get rid of the criminals in the town.
3 Q. Is it your testimony that those criminal groups were acting
4 outside the control of both the MUP and the BH army?
5 A. I didn't say the MUP. It was the MUP who put an end to the
6 criminal groups in the town, that is, the groups of individuals who acted
7 in contravention of the law.
8 Q. Do you know under whose control those groups were?
9 A. If you're referring to anyone from the government and the
10 authorities, I don't know, but those were local thugs, as we called
11 them, Kabadahije.
12 Q. Can you tell us whether those criminal groups were armed?
13 A. Yes, they were.
14 Q. How strong were they? How many people were members of such
16 A. I couldn't give you an exact answer to that question.
17 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the fact that those criminal
18 groups were also active at the front line?
19 A. No. I couldn't tell you anything with certainty in respect of
21 Q. Do you have any knowledge about their participation in military
23 A. I believe I've already answered your question. I couldn't tell
24 you with accuracy what they were involved in. I don't know whether you
25 mean operations against the enemy or some other type of activity.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. No, I don't know. As I told you, one such group was part of the
3 10th Brigade, then there was a part of the 9th Brigade.
4 Q. In which part of the town did the 9th Brigade have its positions?
5 A. No, I couldn't tell you that.
6 Q. Correct me in I'm wrong, but I think that the 2nd Brigade was --
7 actually, the 10th Brigade, the one that you mentioned. Where were the
8 positions of the 10th Mountain Brigade?
9 A. Once again, when it comes to military positions, I don't have any
10 specific knowledge. I think that the command of the 10th Brigade was in a
11 former JNA barracks up in a hill, but as to the exact placement of their
12 positions, I don't know.
13 Q. Witness, you told us that on the basis of your on-site
14 investigation and your conversations with your colleagues, you were
15 familiar with the locations from where sniper and artillery fire was
16 opened. As far as the locality of Mrkovici is concerned, did you conduct
17 any on-site investigations there, and what parts of the town were engaged
18 from the Mrkovici area? What parts of the town that you investigated?
19 A. I don't have any specific notes with me today, but I did
20 participate in the work of the team which conducted the investigation at
21 Markale market in February 1994, when it was established that the shell
22 had come from the direction of Mrkovici.
23 Q. Apart from that occasion, that is, the Markale incident, did you
24 take part in any other incident investigations, either as part of the
25 investigation team or as its leader? I am referring to the incidents
1 where fire would have come from the Mrkovici area.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When and in which part of the town were such investigations
4 conducted? Can you tell us that?
5 A. No, I cannot.
6 Q. Does it mean that you don't know?
7 A. Just that I cannot remember.
8 Q. You told us that you participated in the on-site investigations
9 involving incidents where fire had come from Trebevic. Between April 1992
10 and August 1994, how many on-site investigations did you carry out in the
11 areas of the town which were engaged from Trebevic?
12 A. On at least two occasions, but once again, I cannot be more
13 precise. I have not prepared myself for this. If I had my notes here
14 with me, I would be able to provide you with accurate information about
16 Q. You said that it was on at least two occasions. Did you make any
17 report following such investigations?
18 A. If the investigating magistrate was present, he would have made
19 the report. If not, then it would have been myself. But again, I cannot
21 Q. Can you remember what parts of the town were targeted?
22 A. Yes. It was the old part of the town, above the neighbourhood
23 of -- the name escapes me at the moment, but they are situated higher up
24 above the Bascarsija neighbourhood. I don't know the exact location, but
25 I know that it was in the old part of the town.
1 Q. You also mentioned the fact that you were aware of some artillery
2 positions at Zlatiste, firing positions at Zlatiste. How many
3 investigations did you conduct in respect of these incidents, and were you
4 a member of any such team?
5 A. No, I can't tell you that.
6 Q. Mr. Kucanin, was your testimony that you had a diary with all
7 relevant notes concerning this period of time?
8 A. In 1995, when I was first interviewed with the members of the OTP,
9 I had all my notes with me. I had kept them throughout the war. However,
10 today, in the meantime, I moved, I changed address, and I'm not sure that
11 I still have everything. But I'm pretty sure that it's the majority of
12 what I had taken at the time, and it is contained in my agendas.
13 Q. Why didn't you show your diary to the investigators of the OTP
14 when you made those statements to support what you stated?
15 A. I don't know. It was all in front of me.
16 Q. Yesterday you indicated the location of the Orthodox church in
17 Meljine. Did you make a record of on-site investigation or an official
18 note for mortar firing on this particular area?
19 A. No. I cannot tell you that. Yesterday I described all the
20 relevant individual incidents. I don't know why you're asking me now
21 these general questions.
22 Q. Witness, the reason I'm asking this question is because I want to
23 know how you knew that the mortar fire came from that area. You mentioned
24 the Meljine Orthodox church, and I would like you to describe for us that
25 particular incident, if you can remember it.
1 A. I'm sorry, but I cannot.
2 Q. Mr. Kucanin, you told us that you knew that fire was opened from
3 the forestry academy, in Ilidza. It was marked on the map with "C10," and
4 that you yourself were wounded on this occasion. When was that?
5 A. In late 1993, at the end of that year.
6 Q. Apart from that incident which happened to you, did you conduct
7 any other investigation in this area?
8 A. I don't recall that I did. I think my colleagues did.
9 Q. Which colleagues, and when, and also in respect of which
11 A. I'm sorry, I can't remember at this point.
12 Q. Mr. Kucanin, on the basis of what information you indicated the
13 location of Poljine on map number 1, marked on M, and said that it was
14 from those positions that the VRS opened fire?
15 A. I did so on the basis of data provided to me by my colleagues, and
16 also on the basis of the information that I had, but I cannot claim this
17 with any certainty at this point.
18 Q. You said that it was on the basis of data provided to you by your
19 colleagues. Did they inform you about such incidents orally or was it the
20 case that they showed you their notes and reports?
21 A. Well, we all helped each other. We were officially located in one
22 and single room, so we were aware of what others were working on, and that
23 is how I knew about their incidents.
24 Q. Yesterday, in response to my learned colleague, Mr. Kucanin, you
25 marked with J10 on one of the maps the firing positions of the artillery
1 located in the Lukavica barracks; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. In what part of the town did you carry investigations of incidents
4 where the firing position was at the Lukavica barracks?
5 A. Well, it was in the lower parts of the town. That is where we
6 were able to establish that the fire had come from the Lukavica barracks.
7 Q. Could you be more precise? You said that it was in the lower
8 parts of the town.
9 A. Well, the area between Marsal Tito barracks and further down. The
10 municipalities of Novo Sarajevo and Novi Grad.
11 Q. Mr. Kucanin, you told us that you were able to name all barracks
12 in the town. Do you know where the Zlatni Ljiljan barracks were located,
13 the golden lily fleurs-de-lis?
14 A. Golden lily, Zlatni Ljiljan barracks?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. That's the first time I hear this name.
17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kucanin, as a man who had a number of various
18 types of contact throughout the city, can you tell us where during the
19 relevant period of time was the school of Blagoje Alic located, Blagoje
20 Parovic school? Where was it situated between April 1992 and August 1994?
21 A. It was in the municipality of Novo Sarajevo. The same of the
22 street today is Novo Paromlinska excuse me. Paromlinska and I am familiar
23 with the area.
24 Q. Is the Cenex building right across from the school?
25 A. Well, not across the street. It is slightly higher up the street.
1 Q. During the conflict, did you know that the sniper platoon of the
2 1st Motorised Brigade was located in that school?
3 A. No, I don't know that.
4 Q. Witness, you spoke about intervention platoons at 9:27 on the
5 first day of your testimony here. Could you be more specific? Could you
6 explain to us what -- under whose control were such intervention platoons
7 within the MUP?
8 A. The intervention platoons consisted of police officers who
9 provided assistance to us during investigations, especially in terms of
10 arrest, that is, professional, able police officers who provided
11 professional assistance to other members of investigation teams.
12 Q. Are you telling us that the intervention platoons only assisted
13 you during your investigations?
14 A. Not only during your investigations, but during other types of
15 police activity as well.
16 Q. Do you know whether police forces or other members of the MUP ever
17 went to the front line?
18 A. I stated on my first day here when it was that police teams went
19 to provide assistance to the BH army.
20 Q. How were such teams dressed, and did they carry weapons?
21 A. I don't know what they were wearing. At that time in Sarajevo
22 there were very few formations that had uniforms, all same uniforms, so I
23 don't know what the uniform would have been, but they did have weapons.
24 Q. Now, you're telling us that there were very few formations whose
25 members wore equal uniforms. Does it mean that there were other such --
1 there were formations that did have such uniforms?
2 A. Well, I mentioned the unit called Lasta.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour. The
4 microphone is not working properly.
5 Q. Did you know of any other units which had uniform uniforms, equal
6 uniforms, and that were active in the town of Sarajevo?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Can you tell us at which parts of the front line your colleagues
9 were deployed, your colleagues who provided assistance to the BH army
10 troops? In which parts of the town were they deployed?
11 A. As I already indicated, whenever it was necessary, when the line
12 was endangered by the enemy, then in those cases, members of the police
13 were sent to help them out, those who were more experienced and able. I
14 don't know what specific parts of the town we are talking about.
15 Q. Witness, are you telling us that they were also active in defence
16 against armoured vehicles?
17 A. Well, yes. They were probably able to destroy a tank. I mean, it
18 was necessary to have someone with hand-held rocket launchers to repel
19 such armour attacks.
20 Q. Witness, what kind of uniforms did the BH army have?
21 A. Well, the colour ranged from bright pink, yellow, green,
22 camouflage, black, purple, white, whatever textile was left in the town
23 and could be used to make a uniform.
24 Q. Can you tell us whether such soldiers wearing such uniforms had
25 any common insignia which would indicate that they were members of the BH
2 A. Yes, they did.
3 Q. What insignia was that?
4 A. A coat of arms with six lilies, six fleurs-de-lis.
5 Q. Mr. Kucanin, your colleagues who went to the front line, did they
6 receive their tasks and relevant information from the BH army in case the
7 front line was in danger?
8 A. No, they didn't. The BH army command had nothing to do with the
9 members of the police.
10 Q. Can you therefore tell us on the basis of what kind of information
11 your colleagues were able to go to the endangered part of the front line?
12 A. I don't know. It's the information that I received from others,
13 so I'm not really familiar with that. I myself was never called to report
14 to the front line.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this concludes the
16 cross-examination of the witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Pilipovic, also for being
18 very efficient, as I noticed.
19 Mr. Ierace, is there any need to re-examine the witness?
20 MR. IERACE: Yes, but I think briefly.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
22 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown Exhibit D4. That's the
23 Defence report. D54, I should say.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D54.
25 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:
1 Q. Firstly, in relation to that document, what is the date of it?
2 A. 27th July, 1994.
3 Q. What was the date of the two shelling incidents in Alipasino
5 A. November 1993.
6 Q. You were asked to read paragraph 2. Paragraph 2 stated that
7 maximum vigilance was required at Alipasino Polje; is that correct?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. In relation to the incident where the teacher and school children
10 were killed and injured, in what type of building was that class of
12 A. It was a residential building.
13 Q. Of approximately how many storeys?
14 A. I think it was a skyscraper. I mean, it was a tall building.
15 Q. Indeed, were there a number of skyscrapers which were residential
16 that formed the square where the mortar landed?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did the mortar land on top of the skyscraper or part of the way
19 down the skyscraper or on the ground?
20 A. It hit the pavement, that is, on the ground.
21 Q. In relation to the other incident that day, you said something
22 yesterday about what might have been nearby. Could you explain to us what
23 you understood to have been nearby which might have been of a military
25 A. I don't know. It could have been the civil defence. I'm not
1 sure. As far as my memory serves me, I think it was -- that is, the first
2 day I said that -- administrative building, and I still can't -- this word
3 doesn't come to me. When people are -- oh, yes, the personnel, personnel
4 office. I know there were some young women there, but I didn't pay much
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that concludes re-examination.
7 [Trial Chamber confers].
8 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi will have one or more questions to
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour, please.
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, I won't take more than
13 five minutes. I'd like to ask you something to gain more information.
14 That is, I do not have the direct questions, but some explanations. If
15 you tell us -- was the whole city under your jurisdiction or only a part
16 of the city? How was the work divided? Was it territorial? Were you
17 responsible for just one part of the city or did you cover the whole city?
18 A. My service, that is, my department for criminal -- for crime and
19 sexual assault, covered the area of Sarajevo. Now, when Sarajevo was
20 under siege, then the entire city was placed under my service and it was
21 also added all of Vares, part of the Ilijas municipality, which was on the
22 other side of the siege circle. I went there as of 1993 to conduct
23 on-site investigations involving, of course, my job, and that is murders
24 and sexual assaults.
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Now, if I understand you well, in
1 relation -- with regard to places from which the projectiles came, and you
2 collected this information on the basis of on-site investigations that you
3 conducted around the city?
4 A. Yes, on the basis of the investigations which my colleagues and I
5 conducted around the city.
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. Now, didn't these
7 positions change during the period under consideration?
8 A. No. They stayed put throughout the war, and that concludes the
9 period that we are talking about.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] We are talking about a certain
11 period, not before or after it. We are talking about a certain interval
12 of time. And I remind you that that is from what month to what month and
13 what month -- what period do you have in mind? What period are you
14 talking about?
15 A. I don't quite understand the question, sir.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Did it cover a period of time
17 from 1992, is it? Was it summer? Which month?
18 A. You mean the positions that we are talking about? Well, I'd say
19 from autumn 1992, it is then that those lines, as they called them, were
20 established, from what I learned later on, right up until the end of the
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am referring to the period
23 until summer of 1994.
24 A. Yes. They did not change.
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you are sure, or at least you
1 did not see those positions after that date?
2 A. Those same positions, on the basis of investigations, they were
3 there even after that date.
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now I'd like, very
5 briefly, if possible, because I didn't quite follow when you spoke about
6 those criminal groups. In two words, what were they? I don't want any
8 A. Well, these are criminals, like anywhere in the world, who for
9 some reason assumed the right to harass citizens, to loot and rob, to hold
10 sway over the citizens, and the like.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But this was a phenomenon which
12 happened and which necessitated police action. And when was it done?
13 When did you go out to grapple with these criminal groups?
14 A. The 26th of October, 1993.
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And last
16 clarification, please: Can you tell us more or less where did they target
17 the persons? Was it -- these parts, you said that they targeted parts of
18 the body. Was it these parts of the body, was it the lower parts or the
19 upper parts of the body?
20 A. Do you mean the firearms from the positions of the army of Bosnian
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, no, no. The snipers. Which
24 A. Well, in most cases the upper part of the body.
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kucanin, I also have a question, or perhaps a
3 couple of questions to you relating to the photograph documentation on the
4 22nd of July, 1994. Could, please, Exhibit P2792 be shown to the
5 witness. And could you please first put photograph 1 on the ELMO. That's
6 the first one. On the ELMO, please.
7 Mr. Kucanin, on the photo which is in front of you, you see the
8 canvas awning. Could you please now look at photograph 5.
9 Mr. Usher, could you please ... Yes, that's the one.
10 When this picture was taken, can you tell me whether the awning
11 was still in place, the canvas awning, or had it been removed?
12 A. No. It was there in its place all the time. This photograph was
13 taken from underneath it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand you well that comparing
15 photograph 1 to photograph 5, that the awning was that high, that you
16 can't see it in photograph 5, but it's still there while the photograph
17 was taken?
18 A. Yes. You can see by these cords, by these ropes. They tie the
19 canvas to the metal structure, and that is its end. This is its lateral
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see it. Thank you very much for these
22 answers. Perhaps one additional question. You said it has been there all
23 the time, so that means that it has not been removed before you used the,
24 I would say, the tube technique in order to establish the direction from
25 which the fire came?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. I've got one more question.
3 Quite some questions have been put to you today on the delay in time
4 between the incident you investigated only eight days later. You remember
5 that. Could you tell us whether you are aware of any reasons why citizens
6 would report such incident on a later moment than when the incident
7 happened? If you are aware of it, of course.
8 A. Yes. I was surprised too at the delay, because, after all, it was
9 a 2-year-old child who had been killed. And again, if you bear in mind
10 that the man who notified us was precisely one of those city thugs, city
11 bullies. I was surprised. I cannot accept that other reason, that there
12 was some reason why we did not go out. We went out to investigate, in
13 spite of all the intensive shelling or anything, so there was no other
14 reason why we did not do it except that we simply were not notified of the
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it happen because of the situation that
17 civilians would not be able to report incidents? Did that happen?
18 A. There were such cases too. I'd say that about 30 per cent of the
19 incidents in the city of Sarajevo were never reported at all, and that
20 would include fatalities, people who had been killed or wounded or
22 JUDGE ORIE: Would people usually have to go out in order to
23 report, or would they do it by telephone or by any other telecommunication
25 A. As of the 2nd of May, 1992, the telephones were not -- did not
1 work. That is, when the enemy army set the central post office on fire.
2 You had to do everything on foot.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers, Mr. Kucanin.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I ask some further questions in
5 re-examination? They relate to the photograph you directed the witness
6 to. They do not directly come from the questions you asked, but it occurs
7 to me, listening to you, Mr. President, that there's an area that perhaps
8 I should clarify that arises from cross-examination. It may be that
9 it's -- that I'm wrong in assuming that it's not an issue.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Please proceed. We'll see what ...
11 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown photograph 270 on P2792.
12 If it could be placed on the ELMO. Indeed, first might the witness be
13 shown the first photograph.
14 Further re-examination by Mr. Ierace:
15 Q. Looking at the first photograph, we see behind the awning a series
16 of glass panels which have a metal grill either on them or behind them.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. If you count from the right, then after the third panel there is a
20 doorway; is that correct?
21 A. It is.
22 MR. IERACE: All right. Might now the witness look at photograph
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's on page 5, yes.
25 MR. IERACE: Page 5.
1 Q. On the left of that photograph there is a darkened area. Do you
2 see that?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. If we move slightly to the right, then behind the wire grill we
5 see what appears to be a reflection from a flash gun; is that correct?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, here I must
7 object. I do not know if Mr. Ierace is a photographic technician, but
8 personally, I would refrain from saying that this was the flash or
9 reflection. This is already the third examination-in-chief, by the way.
10 MR. IERACE: I'm happy to withdraw the question, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon? I didn't hear you.
12 MR. IERACE: I'm happy to withdraw the question.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
14 MR. IERACE:
15 Q. Do you see that behind that part of the window, that is, in the
16 area of the hole, there appears to be, slightly to the left of the hole in
17 the glass, a hinge on a door? Is that as you remember it?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must object
19 again, because on this photograph, we do not see one hole; we see two of
20 them. And it is quite obvious there are two holes, one to the left in the
21 lower square and one above it.
22 MR. IERACE: I'm happy to rephrase.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE:
25 Q. To the left of the damage to the glass, do you see what appears to
1 be a hinge on a door?
2 A. Could be, but I'm not sure.
3 Q. Is the dark space to the left of the glass the doorway into the
5 A. I wouldn't say so. I think this is the end of the structure.
6 Q. Going back to the photograph on page 1 --
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my impression
8 is that this is a question which the Prosecution could have perfectly well
9 asked during the examination-in-chief, and therefore, if some rules of
10 procedure are to be applied, then they must apply to everybody. Thank
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this arises directly out of
13 cross-examination. The witness was asked questions as to the position of
14 the bullet on the canvas, and that then raises where -- which particular
15 glass panel was hit on the front of the cafe. But I'm in your hands,
16 Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE:
19 Q. When you look at the photograph on page 1, and having regard to
20 there being a dark area alongside the damaged glass panel on page 5, could
21 you use your pointer to point to the glass panel which was damaged.
22 A. I pointed at it yesterday. I think it's this first one, the first
24 Q. Yesterday you were asked to point --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the sake of
1 the transcript, Mr. Ierace should, as he requested yesterday, that he
2 precisely defines what the witness had shown. That is what you requested
3 yesterday. I think it should be done today.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If I may assist you, Mr. Ierace, the witness pointed
5 at the very right-hand part of the awning. I would say, if you can talk
6 about sections, it's the first section from the right.
7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Might the witness be shown the photograph on page 4.
9 Q. Mr. Kucanin, yesterday the Defence asked you questions about the
10 join in the material on the left-hand side of the photograph. Do you see
11 that join? Please point to it.
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Do you see that the join, in relation to the scalloped edge of the
14 material comes down halfway to the bottom of the curve? Do you see that?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. Please now return to photograph on page 1. Would you please
17 examine the joins in the material on page 1 in relation to the curves at
18 the bottom of the edge. Have you done that?
19 A. Well, I think I see four.
20 Q. Yes. Now, would you please look in particular at where those
21 joins in the material are in relation to the curves on the bottom edge.
22 A. Yes, I spotted it.
23 Q. All right. Now, would you look again at photograph on page 4 and
24 compare the join on page 4 with the various joins on page 1.
25 A. I think you're right. The first one that I showed doesn't fit,
1 because this one is slightly to the right and at a certain angle.
2 Q. What about the second join? Does that fit?
3 A. Yes, I think so so too, I mean that the second one fits.
4 Q. Would you please place that photograph, that is, the photograph on
5 page 1, back on the ELMO and point to the section of the awning that you
6 now think appears in photograph 4.
7 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates the section second along from
8 the right.
9 Q. Mr. Kucanin, having regard to that, would you please now turn to
10 photograph -- the photograph on page 5 and look carefully at what appears
11 behind the glass in the area of the damage to the glass.
12 A. Yes, you're quite right. This is the door here. This is the
13 black metal door frame, and it goes like that. And perhaps even there
14 might be these bars on the inside. But yes, quite right. This is the
15 black door frame.
16 Q. Would you now please return to the photograph on page 1 and point
17 to the glass panel which contained the damage made by the bullet.
18 A. Now, I'm rather perplexed, because I see that each one of these
19 panels has this black metal structure around.
20 Q. Please return to the photograph on page 5. Do you see that
21 immediately to the left of the panel with the damaged glass is a black
22 area with a metal frame?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Do you see that on photograph 1, the door, that is, the entrance
25 to the cafe, is open?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. In other words, the door is in the open position on photograph 1?
3 A. So it is.
4 Q. Does that assist you in determining on photograph 1 the glass
5 panel with the damage which appears in photograph 5?
6 A. It's either this one or the door that was open, depending on the
7 side of the negative when the film was developed. It can be the other way
9 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates either the third panel from the
10 right or the vacant space alongside the third panel.
11 No more questions. Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The Defence, of course, is entitled to cross-examine
13 the witness, but let me just -- to re-cross, but first let me see. We are
14 10 minutes to 2.00 on Friday.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you
17 re-cross the witness.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for
19 this. I sort of hesitated because everybody is tired, including the
20 interpreters. I wanted to know whether we could have the witness on
21 Monday, but perhaps we should like -- perhaps we should ask the
22 interpreters whether they would give us a few more minutes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I should have done it, and I intended to do it, and
24 then the registrar came to me and said that she -- she wanted to bring
25 something to my attention as well. So first of all, would it be possible,
1 all knowing that whenever we could conclude the examination of this
2 witness today, I think it would be good for everyone. Would it be
3 possible to continue? I'm looking at the interpreters' booth.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your great cooperation.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So I will take the same
8 liberty as Mr. Ierace. Thank you. Can I have the photographs on the
9 ELMO, please, number 5, photo number 5.
10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
11 Q. Witness, I'm now talking about the second square in the second row
12 on the left side. Can you see it?
13 A. Yes, I can.
14 Q. Witness, would you please put the indicator on that square.
15 A. [Indicates]
16 Q. Thank you. On the lower left corner, we see a hole. Would you
17 please put the pointer on that hole.
18 A. [Indicates]
19 Q. Very well. Thank you. In the opposite corner we see a fracture
20 in the glass. Would you please point to it, that is, to the upper right
22 A. I'm not sure that this is also a hole or a fracture, but I will
23 indicate the part in question.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness
1 briefly pointed to the upper right corner.
2 Q. Witness, isn't it true that here we can see a fissure in the
3 glass; yes or no?
4 A. I don't know. I see several of them, several such lines, several
5 cracks. Perhaps you can help me.
6 Q. Yes. Can we zoom up a little bit? Can we blow up the square a
7 little bit, please?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I presume that further
10 cross-examination is limited to the subject which was covered in my
11 re-examination. This appears to go beyond it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is denied.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].
16 Q. Witness, we clearly see -- at least, I do, even without my glasses
17 -- two impacts, one in the upper corner with cracks around it and the
18 other in the lower corner, also surrounded by some cracks; is it correct?
19 A. Two points of impact of the bullet? No, I wouldn't agree. I
20 think that the bullet impact is only one.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Yes, but witness, can you not see --
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I did ask a question which referred to
25 the impact. My friend objected. I withdrew the question. There was
1 nothing in my re-examination which touched on whether there was one hole
2 or two.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, during the re-examination you have put
4 further questions to the witness in respect of the place where an impact
5 of a bullet would have taken place on a glass. What, as I see it now, is
6 that Mr. Piletta-Zanin is verifying whether there was one impact or more
7 than one impact.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
10 Q. For the record, what we see on the screen, and that is blown up,
11 is the second square in the second row of squares. In the glass we see
12 two distinct areas of fracture, one in the upper -- in the lower left
13 corner and one in the upper right corner. I think that this is a
14 sufficiently objective description.
15 Witness, as we see two areas of fracture here, and since you
16 indicated that the bullet hit the target only once, how come -- how did
17 you proceed with the tube that you had? In which hole did you decide to
18 put the probing instrument for the purposes of your investigation?
19 A. I told you that this was not my job, that this was the job of the
20 ballistics expert or the crime technician, but I am sure from this vantage
21 point in time that there was only one hole. This other damage was caused
22 by something else.
23 Q. Can I conclude that your answer is that you don't know?
24 A. Whatever I knew is contained in my report.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 Mr. Kucanin, I know that you have been waiting for quite some time
3 and that you have been examined for quite some time as well. I'm quite
4 glad that you came and that you answered all the questions put to you.
5 I'm also glad that at least we could conclude your examination today so
6 that you can return, which of course is important for you after so many
7 days abroad, and especially since your job was endangered. Thank you very
8 much for answering all the questions, because for the decisions this Court
9 will have to take, it's very important that people come and testify of
10 what they know of the events that happened many, many years ago in
11 Sarajevo. Thank you very much. We have to deal with some technical
12 issues again.
13 Mr. Usher, would you please lead out Mr. Kucanin.
14 And Mr. Kucanin, a good, safe trip home.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours, and if
16 I was of any assistance, it is really my pleasure.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, we really are a bit in a hurry, also
20 because you have got to do other things as well. I suggest that any
21 objections against the admission of evidence will be done Monday morning,
22 so that we'll have then time and we'll not have to hurry, since there
23 might be some matters of principle involved as well.
24 I think the only thing then left is that Mr. Mundis [sic] would
25 like to make a submission as far as the production of witnesses is
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. Stamp, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry. Yes. Mr. Stamp.
4 MR. IERACE: Perhaps that could wait until Monday as well. There
5 is another issue which is perhaps more important. Mr. Harding has been
6 waiting around to give evidence, but rather than him give evidence on
7 Monday, I respectfully suggest that we allow him to return again to his
8 home and come back to The Hague in, say, two or three weeks' time. I do
9 that because his situation is a little different from someone who is
10 able-bodied, and there's a degree of stress and tiredness involved. So I
11 prefer that we went straight to calling Mr. Besic on Monday, if that's
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order not to
14 waste anyone's time, the Defence agrees with this solution.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for your cooperation.
16 Could you please tell Mr. Harding, also on behalf of the Chamber, that we
17 deeply deplore, without blaming anyone for it, that he had to wait a long
18 time and he has to return again. But, well, the trial left us no other
19 possibility. But I'd like you to convey this to him.
20 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.
22 So we then deal Monday morning with the protection of witnesses.
23 I would like to invite the parties also to express themselves on the 92
24 bis then perhaps, because we said we'll do it when we have a moment left.
25 Well, it turns out there are hardly any moments left. So I would like
1 also to do that Monday morning to start with, so we might spend the first
2 half an hour with these kind of issues. I thank all the parties for their
3 cooperation. I especially thank the interpreters' booth for helping us
4 out of this rather difficult problem on Friday and making it possible for
5 Mr. Kucanin to return to Sarajevo, and I wish everyone a good weekend.
6 We'll adjourn until next Monday at 9.30.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m.
8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of
9 March 2002, at 9.30 a.m.