1 Thursday, 7 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom, and also
6 in the surrounding technicals and interpreters' booths.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Stanislav Galic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think before we continue the cross-examination of
11 the witness, Mr. Besic, I'd like to make a few remarks. First, I'd refer
12 to the rather tumultuous end of the Court session of yesterday. If
13 Counsel was acting diligently and skillfully, we would have avoided the
14 confusion that came up yesterday in respect of whether the
15 videotape to be played was the same as the videotape played on Monday. I
16 checked the exhibits list according to Article 65 ter, and it becomes
17 rather clear from that tape, apart from that the tapes have different
18 numbers, that the origin seem to be at least not the same. That's my
19 first observation.
20 The second one is, has the Prosecution been able to find out
21 exactly -- I don't want an answer now because we're in open
22 session -- about Witness Q?
23 MR. STAMP: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so we'll hear that on short notice. And did you
25 write the answer down or will you give it in writing or will you tell
1 it orally to the Court? Not at this moment, no.
2 MR. STAMP: We did not write it, but much of what we were going to
3 say but --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Pardon?
5 MR. STAMP: We did not write it. I did not realise that we had
6 been asked to write it. We could do so later. Most of what I would say
7 has been recorded in motions filed previously, so I would refer the Court
8 to that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll be in private session somewhere, so I'll
10 ask you to explain to the Court. I assume that the information about the
11 expert witnesses will come at a later stage?
12 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President. We will seek to clarify the
13 status of each one and be more precise in the use of "expert." We would
14 propose that we refer to experts in respect to Rule 94 bis as experts
15 pursuant to Rule 94 bis.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we'll get a final answer to you by when, by
17 tomorrow or?
18 MR. STAMP: Tomorrow we're not sitting. We hope by Monday or
19 Tuesday next week.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree with you. Tomorrow we're not
21 sitting, the change of the Court schedule.
22 Yes, if there's nothing else as preliminary matter --
23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, good morning
25 to everybody here, and especially good morning to the Chamber. I have
1 noted the remark of the Chamber, and I need to say the following,
2 Mr. President: To begin with, this Defence asked to withdraw immediately
3 this tape so as not to waste any time. But we were denied this by your
4 Chamber --
5 JUDGE ORIE: My observation was not the start of a debate. It was
6 an observation of the Chamber which is not in need for further debate at
7 this moment.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will take note of
9 that. But the sentence I wanted to say I've already done so, so I will
10 sit down.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think we are at the point where the
12 cross-examination of Mr. Besic could be continued.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was about to ask a
14 question. The second thing. Shall I say it, or shall I sit down?
15 JUDGE ORIE: If there's a question, I just wanted to make clear to
16 you that the observation of the Chamber as such didn't need any debate.
17 But of course if there's any question you'd like to put to the Court in
18 respect of the continuation of the cross-examination, you are fully
19 entitled to do so.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 This is a question, not a debate. We have not received -- we have not
22 received the other day, that is, this week, one exhibit or two exhibits
23 which the Registry has which concern that tape, and the numbers are 2279
24 and 79A. And that is what causes the confusion. What I said the other
25 day was that I believed it was this, I mean since we did not receive them,
1 this produced the confusion. And since we do not have these exhibits, I
2 don't know, we have not received the copies of these exhibits. And I do
3 not know who I have to address myself to.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me just first ask, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
5 yesterday Mr. Stamp told us that 2279 was disclosed to you one year ago.
6 On the other hand, it is usual that especially if there are any redacted
7 versions and I understand that last Monday we started playing the redacted
8 version of 2279, they are usually provided to the Defence.
9 Has this been done, Mr. Stamp, or has it not been done?
10 MR. STAMP: It has been done. They were served with the original
11 uncut some time ago, and the redacted version some time this year, some
12 time recently. I am endeavouring to find the date of the service of the
13 two tapes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, let's try to find out. The only thing
15 that I noticed is that at least you make no observation as to the tape not
16 being known to you when it was played to the witness, Besic. And I
17 remember quite clearly that we discussed there were two versions, one
18 version the redacted one, the shorter one with which we started. And then
19 I think Mr. Stamp explained to us that he needed pieces of the video, of
20 the original video as well, and that therefore he changed halfway to the
21 long version of the video. And I'm not quite sure whether the redacted
22 was 2279A, and the long version 2279. But perhaps, Madam Registrar, you
23 could help us out, or Mr. Stamp. You are tendering them, at least one of
24 them. Could you tell us which was the A version, was that the short
25 version or the --
1 MR. STAMP: The A version was the uncut original version.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you started with 2279, and then later on you
3 played 2279A, which is the long version.
4 MR. STAMP: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: At that moment I didn't hear from the Defence, but
6 that's no reason not to come back to it. I didn't hear from the Defence
7 that they were not given this video, and -- but if you say we never
8 received it, then the question is what to do at this very moment?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. We are not
10 saying that. We are not saying that. Simply the problem that we have,
11 Mr. President, is that until we -- unless we receive in the courtroom such
12 and such exhibit with a number, we are unable to check it with what we
13 have. That is, whether this tape is exactly the same as what we have as a
14 document. And that is a problem. For instance, when we have two
15 documents in writing, we can compare them. But when we have two tapes
16 which are relatively long, we cannot check it except by memory, and this
17 is a rather -- it is more difficult an exercise. So except unless we see
18 it in parallel, it is difficult to answer what is -- what I wanted to
19 propose and what I wanted to do yesterday but was interrupted, that we be
20 given on the video only what we were given by the Prosecution, and that
21 will resolve every problem. That is what I wanted to propose yesterday
22 but was not allowed to do.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I see that in the letter of the
24 27th of February, and I should check whether this is true for the earlier
25 letters as well, I see it is also on the 25th of February, that it was
1 indicated to you that the Prosecution would use Exhibit 2279. So may I
2 assume that the Defence was prepared for the use of 2279?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, Defence is
4 prepared and was prepared. That is not the problem. The thing that we
5 have to be sure of that tape which we received a year or more ago
6 corresponds to what we received yesterday, what we heard yesterday, what
7 we saw yesterday. And that resolves the debate. And that is what the
8 Prosecution could be doing, that is, the Prosecution gives to the
9 technical booth the tape that was used, be it the long one if that is
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do I understand you well that you
13 want to be sure now that there's no more confusion about the tapes? That
14 means two tapes have been given to the Registry, 2279 and 2279A. Did
15 you -- it's not in my recollection -- did you then receive copies of the
16 Registry at this very moment not, so you'd like to check. I think we're
17 in a position that finally the Prosecution wants to tender the original
18 long tape being the short one only excerpts of and the short one, that's
19 2279, only excerpts of the long one, the long one which is 227A. And
20 it's a bit confusing, Mr. Stamp, because 2279A in the courtroom is 2279 on
21 the Article 65 ter exhibit list.
22 MR. STAMP: Indeed it is.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's also rather confusing. At least as soon
24 as we establish that.
25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is it your purpose that you want to be sure
1 that 2279A in Court is the same as 2279 on the Article 65 ter exhibit
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] On the one hand -- on the one
4 hand, Mr. President. But we are not talking here about the debate as you
5 say. On the other hand, one of the tapes that we received has the number
6 2278, I repeat, 2278. And it seems that at this stage, the Prosecution
7 has not produced the number 2278, even though we do not quite know the
8 chronology of these exhibits. We have 2278 as an item of evidence, and we
9 do not know whether this is related to the shelling of Markale. I'm
10 checking this.
11 JUDGE ORIE: 2278 is on the exhibit list, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. And
12 it is 2278, videotape, the shooting of Sarajevo market Markale 5th of
13 February, 1994. So I expect to be on that tape some relevant information
14 about the Markale market incident.
15 Now, if you want to check whether these tapes I just mentioned are
16 identical, I think this could be done outside the courtroom. But if
17 you -- if there's a good reason, if you tell us that they are good reasons
18 to believe they are not the same, we are not going to go through every
19 video which is presented and compare it with the videos that have been
20 presented one year before to the Defence. That would be impossible. But
21 if there are good reasons to believe that the 2279A in Court would not be
22 exactly the same as the Prosecution tells us as 2279 on the Article 65 ter
23 exhibit list, of course then we should check it. There may be no question
24 about that. But if we come to 2278, I think that that's a -- another
25 video, and of course you can...
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. We would
2 have done that had the Prosecution immediately gave us the copy of 2279
3 and 2279A. This was not the case. But I am saying in principle to
4 see that the tapes were identical. But what I wanted to do yesterday was
5 to stop the debate and to give immediately simply the exhibits which the
6 Registry has. What I have now and what I propose we do now is that those
7 same tapes which the Registrar has so that we give them back to the booth.
8 I believe that would be the best solution. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I assume that you'd like to show part of
10 any these videos to the witness. Which video you'd like to use? Is this
11 2278, of which we have not seen a single part?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We'll take the long one, and
13 it should have, if I understood it well, letter A.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's 2279A. You want to show parts of that
15 video to the witness.
16 Then, Madam Registrar, could the booth be provided with 2279A,
17 which is the full-length version of what's on the exhibit list, 2279. And
18 then -- unless there's any other reason, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry, Mr. President,
20 about this technical problem. But there is no doubt that all this would
21 not have happened had we received in time and in place a copy of 2279 and
22 2279A which we could expect from the Prosecution. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Do I also understand you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that
24 you're not going to use 2278, or what would I expect?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it always
1 depends on the answers supplied by the witness. And over those, I'm not a
2 master, unfortunately.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait and see what happens with 2278. It
4 has been returned to you? Yes.
5 Mr. Usher, could you then please bring Mr. Besic into the
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Besic, good morning. Our apologies again that
9 you had to wait for such -- please be seated. May I remind you that
10 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave last Monday.
11 The cross-examination by Defence counsel will continue.
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you'll start with this video or not? Would you
13 please indicate to me the moment when you intend to play the video,
14 because I'd like to explain to the witness the situation is a bit
15 different from where we ended yesterday.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I will
18 indicate it when we can have a look at the video, but not at the moment.
19 At the moment, I would like -- I'm not getting any interpretation in my
20 headphones, but perhaps it is normal. Oh, yes, I am. I'm sorry. I
21 apologise. I would like to come back to some purely technical questions,
23 WITNESS: SEAD BESIC [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]
1 Q. [interpretation] Witness, does the name Mr. Michel Guthier say
2 something to you, for the transcript, Gauthier?
3 A. No, I don't know that name.
4 Q. Thank you for your answer.
5 Witness, do you know about results that came out of a mission of
6 experts, UNPROFOR experts, resulting from the analysis that this expert
7 mission carried out immediately following the incident of the 5th of
8 February in Markale?
9 A. No, I don't know anything about it.
10 Q. Witness, you say that you don't know anything about the results
11 that came out of the analysis and the examination of these experts, and
12 this was never communicated to your services. Is that right?
13 A. I cannot give you the exact information. My department of
14 criminal technical department, we were never given any results, any
15 outcome, by the UN members.
16 Q. Do you know, Witness, if the UN published officially their
18 A. No, I don't know anything about that.
19 Q. Witness, if you say that your services never received this
20 official outcome, this official result, from the UN, your services since
21 January 1994, did they contact the UNPROFOR to obtain these results? And
22 if they have, when did that happen?
23 A. No, I don't know anything about that.
24 Q. Witness, so you don't know if the service where you were a highly
25 placed official, you don't know whether they contacted the UNPROFOR to
1 obtain results. Is that right?
2 A. No, I don't know anything about it. If they were contacted -- if
3 they were supposed to contact anyone, then presumably the Tribunal would
4 have had to do it.
5 Q. But you yourself, you did not have any contact with the Tribunal?
6 A. No. After we finished the work, we give it to the Court, and then
7 the Court continues.
8 Q. And personally speaking, you were never interested in finding out
9 what was the result of the investigation, or where almost 110 people died?
10 A. It's not that I wasn't interested, but because of a large volume
11 of work, we did not have time to be interested in these things.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Interpreter apologises,
13 Mr. President. I said 70, not 110.
14 Q. Witness, do you have any information about what was given to the
15 Sarajevo press at that time?
16 A. It's a standard information that's given to the media, the
17 newspapers, and the television.
18 Q. Witness, as far as you know, who was giving the information to the
19 newspapers and to the television?
20 A. In this case, they could have been journalists. And the police
21 employees did not have a right to give any information to the media. The
22 only right to have contact with the media is the Court, in fact, the
23 investigating judge.
24 Q. And as far as you know, did this institution give information to
25 the media?
1 A. Do you mean the Court or the police?
2 Q. I am talking about the institution, company institution that you
3 mentioned; I'm talking about the Court.
4 A. No, I don't know whether the Court communicated anything.
5 Q. And you, yourself, had no cooperation with the UNPROFOR
6 immediately following the incident?
7 A. Only at the time when they arrived to the site of the incident,
8 when I showed them where the projectile was, the projectile they took out,
9 and after they took it out and examined it, then I took it away with me.
10 And that was the only contact with the UNPROFOR I had.
11 Q. Witness, you took that item with you on which date exactly?
12 A. On the same date, after it was taken out by the UNPROFOR, this
13 projectile was brought to the premises of the criminal technical
15 Q. Witness, so we are talking about the 5th, the day of the 5th. Is
16 that correct?
17 A. Yes, 5th of February.
18 Q. Witness, if I understand you correctly, after the 5th, which was
19 the day where you carried out your investigations on the scene of the
20 incident, you did not investigate Markale any further. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, the following day, I did not go to the scene of the incident
22 where the ballistic experts who were authorised by the Court, they were
23 the only ones who were carrying out investigations.
24 Q. Witness, you said the following day, which is the 6th, the
25 ballistic experts carried out investigations. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you for your answer. But on that day, on the 6th, the
3 stabiliser was no longer in its place. Is that correct?
4 A. The following day, the 6th, since the ballistics experts went to
5 the scenes, Zlatko Medjedovic and Hamdija Cavcic, they took the tail-fin
6 to establish together with the expert so they could determine the angle at
7 which the projectile landed.
8 Q. So Witness, if I understand you correctly, the 5th, the projectile
9 was taken out from its impact point, and it is taken away by your
10 services? So far, is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Thank you. And on the 6th, other people returned to the site with
13 the stabiliser that they then put in the -- back into the -- to the scene
14 of the incident. Is that correct?
15 A. The people who worked on the 5th, the investigation, in order to
16 determine the direction, Mirza Sabljica and Zlatko Medjedovic -- sorry,
17 Cavcic Hamdija, the next day, they went again, the same experts of the CSB
18 Sarajevo, they went out there and they took the projectile with them. I'm
19 talking about the same people who were there on the first day. They were
20 also the second day because no one else could get hold of the projectile
21 except for these authorised people.
22 Q. Now, Witness, for what reason did these people return on the 6th
23 to the site of the incident, since they had the whole day on the 5th to
24 carry out their investigations?
25 A. Since the investigation carried on for quite a while, because of
1 it being the month of February and days were shorter, the investigation
2 was stopped and it continued the next day.
3 Q. But for which reason, if you know that the investigation would
4 continue, why was this item removed from the scene of the incident, since
5 you know that it was a vital object just in order to put it back the next
7 A. The projectile had to be taken out, and it was possible to simply
8 return it the next day.
9 Q. Very well. Now, could you give us the names of the people who
10 were posted at night to guard the site?
11 A. The scene of the incident was secured by the Stari Grad police, as
12 I said already, and it was secured for about five or six days. It was
13 covered 24 hours.
14 Q. But you couldn't give us the names of the people who were in
15 charge of the security of the site?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you for your answer.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would now
19 like to show the witness a document which is an enlarged sketch done by
20 experts. And if I am doing it now, it's because it would be more
21 comprehensive rather than doing it later when we look at the second
22 version of the tape. So we're now showing this sketch. It comes from the
23 Defence. This is done by experts, but it would make it easier for us to
24 understand certain things.
25 Are we authorised to proceed? I understand there's no objection.
1 We could, perhaps, start by showing the sketch and putting it on the
2 ELMO. Would it be possible to tender it as evidence if this proves
4 MR. STAMP: Could we start by distributing copies of what they
5 propose to use?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you did not give,
7 prior to the cross-examination, a copy to the Prosecution?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not yet, Mr. President,
9 because, Madam Registrar, I think we will tender it as exhibit. That will
10 probably be D64.
11 THE REGISTRAR: D63.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree that it should be D63, because the
13 original D63 yesterday turned out to be the same document as a document
14 tendered by the Prosecution. So if you would first give an opportunity to
15 the Prosecution to have a look at it globally so...
16 Mr. Usher, perhaps you could already give the first copy to the
17 Prosecution so that...
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can see for the first time
19 that the Prosecution is smiling. I believe that's a good sign.
20 Mr. Stamp, is there an objection?
21 MR. STAMP: I don't know what he proposes to do. Could counsel's
22 comments be directed through the Court.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. STAMP: If I need to object, I will. I don't know what
25 Defence proposes to do.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The only thing I wanted to be sure is that you
2 would have a copy of the document in your possession against which you
3 might have objected if you wanted.
4 MR. STAMP: I'm just getting a copy. I have no objections to
5 getting a copy or to the witness being shown a copy. I have no objections
6 to what has been done so far.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, thank you.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Could we, Mr. Usher, put this document on the ELMO, please. There
11 is a sufficient number of copies for everyone.
12 Mr. President, at the same time it would be very useful if --
13 could the witness be allowed to handle the stabiliser which is, at the
14 moment, to the right-hand side of Madam Registrar. Thank you very much.
15 May I continue?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Witness, you have to your right a sketch, and to your left you
19 have what you say was the stabiliser that you found in loco. First of
20 all, I would ask you, please, if you could take the stabiliser itself and
21 if you can have a look at its structure, sort of its code structure, its
22 structure, precisely this. Could you please indicate, Witness, by looking
23 at the lower part of the wings, the tails, the tail-fins -- could you
24 please take it into your hands, Witness, please.
25 And by looking at it this way, yes, Witness, do you see here a
1 centrally located disk which has got certain inscriptions on the lower
2 part of the central disk?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, around this central disk, is there a
5 kind of ring, a fixation ring, fixing ring?
6 A. Yes, if you mean this ring which is carrying the fins.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, is there or is there not between the
8 ring, the circular ring which is around the disk that you just mentioned,
9 is there a continued seam?
10 Now I can see you --
11 A. I don't know what you mean. I don't know which seam you mean.
12 Q. Between the central disk, which has inscriptions, and the ring,
13 which is around the disk.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. President, this
15 corresponds, if you can see it, to the photograph number 13 perfect.
16 Q. Now, Witness, now, if we're seeing the same thing as you are, now
17 is there a border, a seam, between these two elements, between the ring
18 and the centrally -- the central ring? And I'm talking about a continued
20 A. Yes, there is.
21 Q. You see a continued seam?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. President, we are
24 going to have to modify the position of evidence on the screen. Perhaps
25 we can look at photograph number 13, which was given -- handed over by the
1 Prosecution, and if we can put it on the ELMO, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That is Exhibit P2262.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's page 13, Mr. Usher.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, you may put it on the ELMO.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Here we are. We can see this
6 photograph. Perfect. Thank you very much.
7 Q. Now, Witness, I asked you if there was a continued seam, an
8 uninterrupted seam around the circle. Now, could you indicate what you
9 saw which corresponds to a continued seam? Could you please take the
10 pointer, and if you can indicate it on the screen, please.
11 A. As far as I understand, you mean this particular seam around
12 here. Is that what you mean?
13 Q. I believe that this is this area but not the seam because
14 personally I cannot see a seam. So could you please indicate where you
15 yourself see a seam between these two elements?
16 A. [Indicates].
17 Q. And I mean a continued seam, an uninterrupted seam.
18 A. [Indicates].
19 Q. Now, Witness, I have to ask you a delicate question. Do you know
20 what a seam is?
21 A. Well, I don't think that it is broken up, this seam, if you think
22 about this part here. It probably comes because there was some material,
23 perhaps soil or something else nearby, because of that. What's here
24 probably comes in.
25 Q. Yes, very well. I am stopping you because I'm going to have to
1 indicate for the transcript what you just indicated.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all,
3 the witness circled the area of separation between the disk and the ring
4 which is carrying the fins, and I'm talking about the seam. And then when
5 I asked him what a seam is, the witness showed an area which is located at
6 4.00, if we're talking about space, roughly 4.00. We're talking on the
8 Q. So is this what you're talking about? Now, Witness, I'm going to
9 ask my question again. Could you show us clearly where exactly this seam
10 is between the disk and the ring which is carrying the tail-fins on the
11 screen, please.
12 A. [Indicates].
13 Q. Very well.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Witness, once again for the
15 transcript, the witness once again circles the object, that is the whole
16 circle where the disk is separated from the ring.
17 Q. Witness, what is the type of the seam? How were they soldered
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
20 MR. STAMP: Asking a witness who is a criminal technician trained
21 in the collection of evidence on crime scenes about how a mortar tail-fin
22 is souldered really invites him to give a speculated answer outside his
23 area of.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you want to put to the witness
25 the question you just asked him would you please first ask the witness
1 whether he has any technical knowledge on soldering and soldering
3 And perhaps at the same time could -- but that is a different
4 matter -- could the Court, who is the only one who couldn't see the
5 artifact because it was behind the screen, from our point of view, could
6 Mr. Usher give the tail-fin or the stabiliser to the Chamber. Please
7 proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, did you, during your training, receive some technical
10 knowledge in mechanics, in mechanical subjects? Because what we're
11 talking here about is a mechanical problem.
12 A. No. All that had to do with explosive devices, we were simply not
13 trained in that at all. Our training had to do only with crime
14 investigation. And in this case I cannot say because I do not know -- I
15 had no hand in making this projectile.
16 Q. Fine. Thank you for the answer. So my reasoning is -- and you
17 will tell me if I am wrong -- you say you cannot distinguish the presence
18 of a seam from the absence of a seam. Is that it? You don't know?
19 A. On this photograph, you see that it is broken. But it does not
20 mean much. It could have been due to photography, because we were working
21 under very hard conditions. And probably the photograph was not taken
22 well. But I do not see that the structure of this material was destructed
23 or damaged by some mechanical force.
24 Q. Very well.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. President, we can
1 look at another element, that is, change the document which is on the
2 ELMO, and go back to the sketch which we submitted a moment ago.
3 Perhaps in another direction. Yes, thank you. Perfect.
4 Q. Witness, before we examine other technical matters, will you
5 remind us, please, how much -- how thick was the asphalt in the market of
6 Markale at the place of impact?
7 A. About 3 centimetres.
8 Q. Yes. That is indeed what you said yesterday. Was it concrete or
9 what was -- was it asphalt?
10 A. It was asphalt. It was an asphalt base.
11 Q. Yes, that is, I remember you saying that. Thank you. If you now
12 look at the sketch that you have here, that you have to your right and
13 which you no doubt can see on your screen, can you confirm -- but I'm
14 trying to be very precise. This is a theoretical diagram. Can you
15 confirm that when a shell hits the ground, then one finds more or less
16 this type of structure in the ground?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: What type of structure? I just ask for some
19 clarification to the question.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I shall be happy to
21 clarify. "This type of structure," this means the fins in this position
22 with this part of the body which seems to have survived after the impact,
23 that is, the cylindrical part which we see to the right of the drawing.
24 A. It is precisely in this -- it is precisely in this way how the
25 stabiliser hits and then penetrates the ground, with the cylindrical
2 Q. And when we found a stabiliser in a place, we find it there,
3 Witness, on together with this part which we see schematically presented
4 on the right which is presumably the residual part?
5 A. Yes, precisely, because the body bursts.
6 Q. Very well. Thank you for this answer. Now, I'd like you to tell
7 me if when one takes out the stabiliser whether after it has been
8 extracted, whether a circular crater remains in the place where the body
9 of the shell was extracted?
10 A. Precisely, because not much digging is done around. One digs as
11 little as possible, and one applies tongs or things to get it by its tail
12 and then pull it out with as little disturbance as possible.
13 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer. Did you take photographs of
14 this lower crater? And I mean the crater, the cylindrical part of to the
15 right of this drawing?
16 A. No. After the extraction, the crater was --
17 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel is speaking over the witness.
18 A. This photograph was not taken.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].
20 Q. The flaps, the fins which we can see to the left...
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please stop -- no, no,
22 no. Would you please stop before continuing when the witness is still
23 speaking. Yes.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [[In English] I do apologise
25 for that.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I'll just go back to that question:
2 When the body falls, it lodges, or rather, it digs its own crater. But
3 isn't it also true that the form of the upper crater, that is, the crater
4 which is above the circular object that we just talked about, and that its
5 shape will be slightly star-shaped because it is determined, because it is
6 being shaped by the flaps, by the fins?
7 A. No, no, no. You do not find their mark in the ground because the
8 detonation produces the crater, and all these fins go down together --
9 lodge in the ground together with the body.
10 Q. Witness, thank you for this answer. When a projectile such as
11 this one hits relatively hard ground such as an asphalt surface, isn't
12 there, as a rule, a slip shift of the ring which keeps together the body
13 with the flaps?
14 A. Well, no, not in this case. Otherwise, in all cases, the flaps
15 were always affixed to this part of the elongated body.
16 Q. Witness, I'm not talking about the fins; I'm talking about the
17 slippage of the ring which affixes the ring. So I'm asking you the same
18 question. Isn't it true that as a rule, the penetration force can produce
19 the slippage of this ring which affixes the structure?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
21 MR. STAMP: This is not an objection; it's just a question of
22 clarifying this question. I'm afraid I don't know of any evidence, or
23 I -- perhaps I am not getting the translation exactly of what my friend
24 said. I don't know of evidence before there being a slippage of a ring
25 which affixes another ring. This is what the transcript reflects.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand the question, whether this could
2 happen. And then of course another question might arise, whether this is
3 something of an opinion of an expert or something to be established by
4 someone who has a lot of experience. So perhaps if we would first sort
5 out what Mr. Piletta-Zanin is asking, whether this witness has a
6 theoretical knowledge of the issue, or whether he has any practical
7 experience with this phenomenon. Would that be --
8 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- helpful? Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will be happy to do
12 Q. Witness, you investigated different incidents involving shelling.
13 Is that correct, yes or no?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Witness, didn't you, yourself, state -- and I am quoting from
16 memory -- that during the war you learned very quickly, and that you
17 learned all sorts of things about calibres and so on and so forth?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Witness, then I am concluding that you very quickly
20 acquired experience about -- in handling this type of weaponry?
21 A. Yes, but only insofar as the things found on the site are
22 concerned. But things that have to do with the ballistic matters, with
23 parts of projectile and all that, no.
24 Q. Thank you, Witness. But my question has nothing to do with
25 ballistics. It is mechanical. It has to do with mechanics.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as far as we understood the
2 request for clarification from Mr. Stamp, would you please come to the
3 point we just discussed.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I shall be happy to do
5 that. May I then continue with the fins, Mr. President?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the only thing -- we were talking about
7 what was the basis of the knowledge of the witness or whether he learns it
8 quickly or slowly or whether he learned it while wearing jeans or in
9 sunshine or not, that's what I mean with "come to your point." The point
10 is clear to everyone. If you would come to it, that would accelerate it.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 Q. Then one question, Witness: You acquired, therefore, whatever the
13 weather conditions, you acquired considerable knowledge about the material
14 which you acquired on site, on the scene?
15 A. A moment ago, you mentioned -- you said that it was a question of
16 mechanics, but I had no part in either the production or destruction of
17 this projectiles. I do not know what damage they undergo when falling --
18 when impacting. What I can confirm is that no mortar shell that we found
19 had its fins or its body separated from the fixation ring about which you
20 are asking me.
21 Q. Very well. So I have the answer. Thank you.
22 Witness, now, I'd like to go back to the question of consequences
23 in the wake of the explosion of such a projectile. Witness, you saw
24 several sites where such shells fell. When you arrive there, what does
25 the crater look like? Can you see it or can you not see it?
1 A. The crater -- you can always see the crater, because there's a
2 certain amount of material in it. And there are often marks of a -- how
3 shall I call it -- of fire, so there is some soot or something depending
4 on the ground on where it hits, whether it's asphalt or earth or
6 Q. But when we talk about the end part of the shell, this part, would
7 it be usually covered or visible in situ, I mean?
8 A. It is always visible.
9 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness.
10 I'd like to go back briefly to another photograph which has to be
11 put on the ELMO.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is the same
13 as mentioned briefly, but on page 10. Can the usher please help me. It
14 is P2262.
15 Very well.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Witness, you just told us that the end part of the projectile,
19 that is, what one calls stabiliser which you have before you, is always
20 visible on site. Can you show us where do we see, where do we see the
22 A. In this case, I did not say that you could always see the
23 stabiliser. We were talking about the crater, and I said that the place
24 of impact can always be seen based on the -- due to the damage that one
25 sees, whether be it asphalt, be it concrete, be it soil. The crater is
1 here, and the damage is all around here, and then further -- further out.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I asked the
3 question and I was checking this question on page 25, line 24, and I said,
4 when we are -- it says: "We are talking about the end part of the shell,
5 that is, this part." And I even said "in situ," was it visible or was it
6 covered. And the witness said it is always visible, you can always see
7 it. And when I asked this witness to point at the place where one could
8 see the stabiliser in this photograph, then I note the different answer.
9 Q. Witness, why did you tell me a moment ago that the end part of the
10 shell could always be seen?
11 A. Because you are moving from one question to another. Perhaps
12 there was a misunderstanding. From this photo documentation and from the
13 videorecording of Markale, one can see the crater, which is covered up,
14 and the tail-fins cannot be seen. They cannot be seen until the arrival
15 of UN members who came there, cleared the place, and pulled it out. And I
16 understood your previous to mean whether one could see the place where the
17 projectile impacted, and I said yes, that one could see the traces of the
18 trail or even marks left by flames. But that one could always see the
19 tail-fins in cases when the shell had lodged in the ground, then no.
20 Sometimes you can see it; sometimes you can't. In a different set
21 of photographs done on the 4th of February at Dobrinja, number 1 marked
22 the place where the shell fell and where one could see the tail-fins,
23 where it was not covered by earth in the crater. But in this particular
24 case, the stabiliser was completely covered up in the crater and was not
25 visible. I hope I was clear enough.
1 Q. Very well, Witness. On this photograph I see several things. I
2 see a map; I see the compass; I see an arrow; and I see, also, the lower
3 elements of what I think were part of the -- of a device used to measure
4 space, that is the lower parts of something that was in the shape of a T.
5 A. Very well, thank you.
6 Q. Witness, how could you already put markings when you still did not
7 exactly know if the projectile was --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
9 MR. STAMP: Objection. Question, Witness, how could you already
10 put markings...I don't think there was evidence that this witness put
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, where in the evidence until now we
13 find that the witness has made markings?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President,
15 I never said -- indicated that he would be making marks. It is a
16 interpretation problem, I believe.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So you say, you're asking in general how you could
18 put --
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What I'm asking, what I'm
20 saying is generally speaking, how could you begin to launch your analysis
21 if the presumed object is covered and cannot be seen?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. STAMP: The objection this time is that counsel again asked
24 the witness to speculate in an area of expertise which the witness does
25 not claim to have. We will call a ballistic expert in respect to this
1 incident. That has already been indicated. He is not a ballistic
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not know
4 if the gentleman wore jeans, so I note at the time this was his task. His
5 task was investigate to -- his task was to establish where were the marks
6 left by the shell. And if we shall have another specialist, very well.
7 We shall take note of that.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, the objection is denied. The witness has
10 testified on a lot of subjects concerning these kind of measurements which
11 he was present at various times, and he indicated to us how these
12 measurements were done, although done by others.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. [No Interpretation].
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I see that is not here. I see
17 this is not in the transcript.
18 Q. Witness, will you please answer.
19 A. Well, this is not marked on the basis of the stabiliser, which is
20 wedged, lodged in the ground. It is done on the basis of marks, that is,
21 traces found outside, outside the crater, in the asphalt or the concrete,
22 which are due to the shrapnel. And these are used as the reference points
23 to determine the direction from which the projectile came. And it is the
24 next step when you embark on the treatment of the crater. And in this
25 particular case, Sabljica and Medjedovic put the map in the place, the
1 compass, and I cleared the ground around it so that we could see better
2 and easier the damage in the asphalt.
3 Q. Witness, thank you for this answer. Wouldn't you agree with me
4 when I say that when generally the ground or the soil is more or less dark
5 in this photograph, whilst the point which is at the intersection of the
6 three sticks that we see in the upper part seems to be slightly lighter,
7 do you see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Witness, does that mean that here there is something
10 the nature of which is different from the nature of the surrounding
12 A. Yes, this was pebble and sand which served as a basis, as the base
13 layer for the asphalt surface.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that
15 this is an excellent time for a break. I don't know if we are going to go
16 by it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an on how much time you'd still
18 need for the cross-examination of the witness?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will ask -- talk with my
20 colleague, but we have just provided the videotape.
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] About half an hour,
23 Mr. President. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you'd please be as efficient as possible.
25 We'll adjourn until 11.00 and resume then.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed the
4 cross-examination of the witness.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Witness, in a moment, we are going to view the tape, but before
7 that, I would like to ask you some questions.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
9 MR. STAMP: I apologise to my friend. Mr. President, we are
10 having problems with scheduling having regard to the upcoming videolink
11 section of this case.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. STAMP: I was wondering if in the course of the day --
14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll find a moment, yes.
15 MR. STAMP: -- this Court could just set a time for the 92 bis
16 discussions or arguments in respect to it, next week or whenever is
17 convenient to the Court so we could schedule the witnesses who are here.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me tell the parties that during the next
19 break, I'll discuss with my colleagues when exactly we'll hear the 92
21 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. So Witness, we are going to continue. So in a moment, we'll see
25 the video cassette, but in the meantime, I have some other questions for
2 Were you informed of the existence of a commission or a committee
3 that was to examine, so this is a committee or a commission that was
4 supposed to be established, and that it was to include representatives
5 from both parties as well as UNPROFOR representatives?
6 A. No, I don't know anything about a committee or a commission that
7 was supposed to be established.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 Witness, I am now going to go on to another issue, which is -- and
10 I quote what you said -- the "famous tunnel" that you mentioned during
11 your last examination. Do you remember what you said?
12 A. Yes, I remember. I said that was the famous -- the miraculous
13 tunnel, which was the only passage to get out of being surrounded, the
14 only passage out into the outer world, to civilisation.
15 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. President, for the
17 clarity of things, that was page 55, line 22 of the provisional version of
18 the transcript.
19 Q. Now, several questions on this point. Sir, could you locate the
20 exit or the entrance of this tunnel in the city itself, in the city of
21 Sarajevo? And I mean Greater Sarajevo.
22 A. The tunnel was outside of the city, in the area of the airport of
23 the city, which was under the control mainly of the UN forces except for
24 the entrance part, which was located outside of the front lines, outside
25 of the firing positions.
1 Q. Witness, could you tell us exactly the street where this tunnel
3 A. It exited in Hrasnica, and the name of the street where the
4 entrance was I don't know.
5 Q. Witness, did you ever use this tunnel yourself?
6 A. Yes, I used it on several occasions.
7 Q. Thank you. Since I had the opportunity to see it for myself,
8 could you confirm that this tunnel exited in the immediate vicinity of a
9 residential house?
10 A. Its exit in the area of Hrasnica was on the edge. This was the
11 beginning of the Hrasnica area where private houses were.
12 Q. Do I mean your answer to be yes?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you for your answer.
15 Now, you used it for private purposes or was it for professional
17 A. The few times I used it was strictly professional -- for
18 professional reasons.
19 Q. Thank you for your answer.
20 Now, could you tell us where precisely the exit was of the tunnel?
21 A. The exit was in Hrasnica, but really the exact name I couldn't
22 tell you. I don't know.
23 Q. And could you tell us where the entrance was?
24 A. The entrance was in part of Dobrinja on a road which borders the
25 airport of Sarajevo.
1 Q. Could you give us the name of the street, please.
2 A. I couldn't recall right now.
3 Q. Was it next to a residential house?
4 A. Because the residential house comes out on to the street which is
5 a border to the airport area, and because there is an empty space, so one
6 part of the house was used as the passage which went underneath the road
7 and then up to private houses, and then further on.
8 Q. Yes, that's exactly what I remember. Thank you very much.
9 Now, to be more precise in relation to the tunnel, how was it
10 guarded in Dobrinja? How and by whom was it guarded?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is for the
12 interpretation, how and by whom was it guarded in Dobrinja.
13 A. The tunnel was guarded by members of the BH army and some members
14 of the police force that kept the outer side -- the actual tunnel was
15 guarded by the army, and the outer and the entrance was guarded by the
17 Q. Could you make it very specific for everyone, especially for the
18 Chamber, which part of Dobrinja are we talking about, I, II, III, or IV?
19 A. I couldn't tell you the exact part, whether it was I, II, III, or
21 Q. Witness, the incident that we talked about, the 4th which preceded
22 Markale, which happened in Dobrinja, what was the distance between the
23 site of that -- of the location of that incident in relation to the tunnel
24 itself, which was also located in Dobrinja?
25 A. Over 1.000 metres, over 1 kilometre is the distance.
1 Q. However, it was in the same district of Dobrinja, was it not?
2 A. Yes, it was in the same part of Dobrinja.
3 Q. Thank you for your answer.
4 You said the tunnel was guarded by the police force as well as by
5 the army members. Now, you, as a policeman, could you indicate in numbers
6 how strong were the forces who were guarding the tunnel?
7 A. The entrance to the tunnel was guarded by about three to five
8 people. The tunnel was strictly controlled, and it was not possible to
9 use it at will.
10 Q. Now, Witness, you said that you used this tunnel for strictly
11 professional reasons. That means to conduct investigations in order to
12 get to the areas of other incidents. Is that right?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 Now, the army, Witness, did the army use the tunnel as well?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that
19 the technical booth could now give us its assistance to start the viewing
20 of the cassette that we would like to see that we did not get under this
21 number by the Prosecution.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The tape given to the booth was number -- that's
23 227 --
24 THE REGISTRAR: 2279A.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That will now be played.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
2 believe that this has to be the cassette which begins by Dobrinja. And
3 this does not seem to be this one, but are we at the beginning of the
4 tape, please.
5 Technical booth: Yes, we are.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel. We cannot hear the
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So we are going to view this
9 cassette anyway, and I would like you to go a little bit faster, to fast
10 forward it and then I'll tell you when to stop, please.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Stop, stop.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please rewind.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise. Could you
15 please rewind.
16 Stop. Thank you. Now, from this moment, could we play it
17 normally, please.
18 [Videotape played]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Stop.
21 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to replay this scene for you again.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask to go back,
23 for the booth, please, just a few moments. Stop. Let's stop here.
24 Q. There are two things that I would like to ask you about. But
25 first of all, we're going to look at precisely what's happening now.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the booth, could you play
2 this. I would like everyone to pay attention to the facts that we have a
3 date to the left, the left bottom corner of the screen. Could we play the
4 tape now, please.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Stop here, please. Now, could
7 you please rewind a little.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Stop here. Here we are.
10 Q. Now, Witness --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, counsel. We cannot hear.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
13 Q. Now here we have a date to the left, which is no doubt the 5th of
14 February, 1994. And to the right we see an item. Could you please
15 describe this item for us, please. To the right on the screen.
16 A. If you're talking about the scissors, then yes, that's what they
17 are. Yes, these are scissors.
18 Q. Now, Witness, is this not an item, these scissors that are a very
19 specific type of scissors that are used in surgery?
20 A. It is possible that we are used in surgery, but on the market
21 everything is being sold. On the right you can see everything. On the
22 left, you can see also some types of keys.
23 Q. So even items for surgery were sold?
24 A. Well, if there's one pair of scissors there.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, for the booth -- thank
3 you, Witness -- now slowly, could we play the tape. Is it possible to
4 have it played slowly. If not, then at a normal pace.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, here we are. We can see,
7 for the transcript, the scissors, and we still see the date of the 5th of
8 February, 1994.
9 Stop here, please. And here we see that the date that we had a
10 moment ago disappeared altogether.
11 Q. Now, Witness, the question is the following: You told me that on
12 the site there was only one cameraman using just one videocamera. How do
13 you explain the fact that this date disappeared?
14 A. The explanation is that the camera was not on the entire time.
15 There was a possibility that the cameraman using it on and off, that he
16 simply did not switch the date on or simply erase the dates. This is a
17 technical matter.
18 Q. So you're indicating to me that there is a possibility to choose
19 the date on the camera?
20 A. Well, it's a Panasonic camera. I don't see the reason -- yes, it
21 is possible. Yes. It's a technical matter, which programmed to work in
22 such a way. It's nothing new.
23 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, for the booth, could you
25 please speed up, fast forward, the tape, and I will tell you when to
2 [Videotape played]
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Here. Thank you. Could you
4 please go back a little.
5 Yes, just a little bit. Go back a little bit. Here. Now, this
6 is excellent, and I will tell you play it, and I will tell you when to
7 stop. Thank you. Here we are. You can play it, please.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Stop here. Thank you.
10 Q. Now, Witness, here we can see something which more or less
11 corresponds to a geometrical T, which was reproduced in photographs that
12 we saw earlier. Were the photographs taken on the same day when this
13 video was filmed, since we do not have the date on screen?
14 A. Yes, everything was done parallelly, at the same time. The
15 photograph and the videorecording.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now I believe that we can play
18 the tape further at a slightly increased pace.
19 [Videotape played]
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Stop here, please. Thank
21 you. Could you please, I'm sorry, go back to the beginning. Could you
22 please rewind to the beginning. Yes, a little bit more. Could you go
23 forward. Stop here.
24 Thank you very much.
25 Q. Witness, I believe that we saw this last image, the last picture,
1 that was for us on the screen, and we saw on the tape simply does the item
2 that we see in someone's body, in someone's corpse, I believe that it is a
3 limb, and this is the item we can see at the lower image, is that a
5 A. No, no, that's not shrapnel. It is a part of the tissue which is
6 detached from the body, and it comes actually from the part of the roof of
7 a stall in the market on which this corpse was brought in.
8 Q. You are telling us -- because I'm not quite sure that you
9 visualised my question. You are telling us that this object which seems
10 to be a piece of metal which seems to have penetrated into something which
11 seems to be a limb and which is towards the bottom and slightly to the
12 right of the photograph, that this was not shrapnel?
13 A. No, it is not. This is tissue which comes from this part of the
15 Q. Very well. I will ask you a different question. Witness --
16 Witness, bodies were taken to the hospital, isn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Witness, these bodies had been hit by shrapnel, that is correct,
19 isn't it?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. Witness, when these bodies were taken to the hospital, and
22 unfortunately the bodies of those dead, I believe they still had pieces of
23 shrapnel on them or in them?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Witness, would you agree with me that one could, therefore,
1 consider that these are very important elements of the investigation?
2 A. Yes, they are.
3 Q. Witness, what happened to all of those numerous pieces of shrapnel
4 which necessarily at some point or other found themselves in the hands of
5 the hospital personnel?
6 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you, but we were not given those
7 pieces. It has to do with the forensic personnel.
8 Q. Witness, you, as a policeman and a police investigator, do you
9 know if any requests had been lodged with the hospital to acquire these
10 pieces of -- elements of investigation?
11 A. Since the judge conducted the investigation, he was also the
12 person responsible for issuing whatever order.
13 Q. Very well. Thank you.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we now have
15 another tape. That is a videotape which we'll now give, which has the
16 number -- at least our, V000-3822, second copy, and it says "Dobrinja and
17 Markale." This is a document which was supplied by the Prosecution. When
18 I say "document," I mean this exhibit, this piece of evidence, of course.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I would like to have some clarification. On
21 page 35.20, Mr. Piletta-Zanin said that the tape, the one that we have
22 already seen, begins with Dobrinja.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No.
24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: It is in the transcript.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is my mistake, sir. I
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in order to avoid any confusion, the tape you
3 want to be played now, what number has it on the exhibit list of the
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have to ask Mrs. Pilipovic.
6 She is better acquainted with these matters. She'll respond to me
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that it is, if it is
10 the tape which we received last Saturday, then the one that I gave you is
11 the only number. But on the tape no other number is indicated,
12 Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You received this recently from the Prosecution?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am told that we received it,
15 I suppose, last Saturday, but I will check.
16 [Defence counsel confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct,
19 Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp would you identify the -- it reads
21 V000-3822, copy 2.
22 MR. STAMP: If it pleases you, Mr. President, I don't think that
23 this videotape has an exhibit number, Prosecution exhibit number as yet.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, not as far as I can see.
25 MR. STAMP: It was a tape, if you recall, I referred to last week
1 as being something that we got last week and which you directed us to
2 immediately disclose to the Defence, which we did. It does not have a
3 Prosecution exhibit number as yet.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Until now -- it doesn't have -- it's tendered
5 by the Defence so they can give it their number. But I want to be sure
6 everyone knows what tape we are talking about. It then can be given to
7 the booth and be played according to the instructions of
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President. But
10 since we don't have another number, we cannot give it to you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whatever document you want to
12 tender, you can give it a subsequent number. And just to assist you, we
13 were at, Madam Registrar, 64. So that would then be D64.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not know when the booth
15 will be ready.
16 JUDGE ORIE: If we are all on the video channel, we'll see when
17 the video starts. And would you please then guide the booth,
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm waiting to get the image
20 on the screen, but that is not the case. I'll see.
21 I have to change the channel. Do you have the image,
22 Mr. President?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Not yet, so I assume they are still preparing.
24 There seems to be a problem with the tape so that it will not
25 play. Is this a problem that can be solved or...
1 Mr. Stamp, do you have another copy of that same tape?
2 MR. STAMP: I'm making that inquiry just now, Mr. President.
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: It cannot be played. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm quite
5 sure you have viewed the tape before using it.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Believe me, Mr. President,
7 nothing is deliberate on the part of the Defence. We went through it last
8 night, and very early this morning, and the tape was in perfect shape.
9 And it was in your hands and now it doesn't work any more.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I saw something on the screen. And I think we have
11 something on our screen now.
12 I think the booth is now bringing us back to the beginning of the
13 tape. Is that right?
14 TECHNICAL BOOTH: Yes, it is.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. And first of all, thank you for
16 being able to show the tape to us.
17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please guide the booth.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm asking the booth, are
19 we now at the beginning of the tape?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you confirm that?
21 TECHNICAL BOOTH: Yes, we are.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now I'd like to
24 use now the same procedure, move rapidly -- go fast forward, and I will
25 tell you when to stop.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Stop. Thank you. A little
3 bit forward, please. And a little bit more. Stop.
4 It is now difficult. Could you now go back a little bit, please.
5 And a little bit more. There. Stop now. It is so difficult to react.
6 Now a little bit back, please.
7 No, no, back. There, stop here.
8 Q. Witness, do we see here the impact of the shell? And if we do,
9 will you please point at it.
10 A. The area where the shell fell, I'm not quite clear really, but it
11 is where you see this small pine tree.
12 Q. Thank you, Witness. And still, while we are at this image, what
13 one can imagine behind the window to the right, or as the case may be, on
14 the left, would it be an apartment, a flat, which has evidently been --
15 which has apparently been put on fire?
16 A. [No Interpretation]
17 Q. Can you please repeat the answer, which is not in the transcript,
18 but which I believe was "yes."
19 A. Yes, indeed, this is a flat which is partially -- which has partly
20 burnt down.
21 Q. Yes. Thank you.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let us move on, forward, and
23 I'll tell you when to stop. We shall have two more stops. No, no, no,
24 just go on. Just move forward. I said we'll have two more stops, but I
25 will tell you when.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Stop, please. Stop. Just a
3 little bit too -- now, will you go just a bit more forward.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I ask you one thing,
5 noting that you speak perfect English, when you give instructions to the
6 booth and they first have to be translated, if you will give the
7 instructions to the booth in English, perhaps.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [In English] What we saw a
9 moment ago, please, will you come back to that. Stop here, thanks.
10 Okay. Now I switch to French. May I? Thanks a lot.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, do we see here the lower part of the
13 A. Yes, we can see the stabiliser here.
14 Q. Witness, did you photograph this on site just as it was when you
15 arrived? Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, indeed.
17 Q. Thank you. Witness, it is correct to say that this stabiliser is
18 fully free and perfectly visible.
19 A. That is how we found it.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, this is
22 the image at 13.37 on the 4th of February, 1994, which presents the shell,
23 which is half or partly under the ground, and there is -- with the part
24 above it and a map with a compass on it. Thank you very much for this
1 I believe we can move a little bit more forward. [In English]
2 Just a little bit, high speed. Now slow down, please. Slow down,
3 please. No, not yet, go ahead. Go ahead, high speed, please. Stop
4 here. Okay, okay, okay. Now switch to French.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, what do we see here above the compass?
6 A. Above it we see the point of impact. That is where the projectile
7 landed. And one sees the crater and the stabiliser which is lodged in the
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone counsel, please.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And same question, this is the state in which you found this
12 object when you arrived at the scene, is it?
13 A. Quite so, that is the state in which we found it.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [In English] Can we now go
16 with the video, please. Normal speed.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [In English] Okay, forward
19 high speed, please.
20 This is not for the booth, but for the Chamber and us, that we are
21 about to arrive, yes, here we are. We're again at Markale. We are again
22 at Markale for the transcript, and I say when we have to stop. It is a
23 place where we shall see marks on the ground.
24 [In English] Sorry, stop here and go back a little bit, please.
25 Go back a little bit. Yeah, okay. Stop here. Stop here, please.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, this is once again the place which we
2 could see a moment ago, a while ago. And I'd like you to compare this
3 image with that which we saw a while ago where on both occasions, we could
4 see the fins free, or at least visible in the crater.
5 Can one see here the fins in the crater, the tail-fins in the
7 A. No. On this one, you cannot see the tail-fins, or rather in this
8 videorecording you cannot see them because they were covered with the
9 soil, with the dirt which is beneath the asphalt.
10 Q. And who removed this soil around?
11 A. I cleared this area here, and I tried -- rather, I wanted to have
12 a look at the crater to see if there were parts of the firing pin, and
13 then I realised that the tail-fins of the projectiles were there, and I
14 stopped what I was doing pending the arrival of the UN, as I've already
15 said three or four times before.
16 Q. Witness, with regard to this point of impact, what is the distance
17 between this point of impact and the building which is right above it,
18 roughly towards north?
19 A. I already said before that it was about 3 metres.
20 Q. Witness, what you did not say was how tall was the building which
21 was some 3 metres away?
22 A. Because I was not asked that question. What I can say is that it
23 is about 5 metres, 4 or 5 metres tall.
24 Q. Witness, and near to the point of impact, wasn't there a building
25 which had six, maybe seven floors?
1 A. Yes, but that building is to the side of the market. It is -- it
2 has six floors, and it is to the east.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'd like to proceed with the
4 tape, please. [In English] Continue with the video, please. High speed,
6 [Videotape played]
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [In English] Stop here.
8 Back. Back a little bit. Go back a little bit. Stop here.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, are we talking about this building here?
10 A. No. This street is on Mula Mustafe, formally Marsal Tito
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [In English] Play the
13 videotape, please.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [In English] Okay, sorry, go
16 forward. High speed.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Go back, please. Go back.
19 [In English] I'm sorry.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Stop here, please. Stop here.
22 Q. [Interpretation] And what we have here, Witness, can you confirm
23 to us that when the UNPROFOR forces arrived that it was they who got rid
24 of the debris which was above the tail-fins. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. Thank you for this answer.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have now
3 finished with this tape. I simply have another exhibit to show -- another
4 document to show the witness, but a document this time.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. You indicated that you would
6 need approximately half an hour. If you would be perhaps more efficient
7 and just in order to give some guidance, perhaps to both parties, a lot of
8 questions are about where a tunnel was situated. And of course I waited
9 to see whether the importance of the situation of the -- the exact
10 location of the tunnel was, but I found it was just to find out where it
11 was. I really wonder whether the parties could, for example, not
12 compromise on where this tunnel was. Why do we have to spend time in this
13 court on where the tunnel was? Apart from who was guarding it, whoever
14 used it, but the mere location of the tunnel, I think it's not easy to
15 change the location of a tunnel. And as far as I know, there's a lot of
16 documentation about that.
17 So I wonder why we have to ask witnesses, perhaps one witness,
18 perhaps more witnesses, on where exactly a tunnel was located where there
19 could hardly at least as far as my knowledge goes at this moment on where
20 this tunnel was. But I'm just indicating how we can speed up, how we can
21 use our time more efficiently.
22 Please proceed, but keep this in mind, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, because
23 you took 50 minutes for what you said would take approximately half an
24 hour. Please proceed.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, quite. I thought it was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 important for the Chamber to know how far from it was the incident at
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, don't start a debate again. Of
4 course, if you'd like to know the distance between the incident and the
5 beginning of the tunnel, apart from that, these are facts you could easily
6 compromise upon and the parties did not. So if you want us to be informed
7 about these details, try the most efficient way of achieving it. I'm
8 looking to both parties. I mean, both the incident of Dobrinja could,
9 unless -- but I didn't hear it until now -- could be easily demonstrated
10 also in other ways, and you could easily compromise. It's my view. If
11 you say there's any dispute about the exact location of the incident, if
12 there's any dispute about the entrance of the tunnel, please spend as much
13 time as you want on it. But if there's in dispute about that, please
14 compromise on these kind of issues.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will try to make those
17 compromises. Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Now, Witness, we will show you a piece which is Document D65. And
19 I'm going to read a passage from it, but first of all, I'm going to ask
20 for it to be handed out by Mr. Usher, please.
21 Now, Witness, in the meantime could I ask you if you read English?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Witness, you have before you a document. For the transcript, it
24 is a United Nations document from the Security Council. And I will simply
25 read to you the very last sentence: "The conclusions that the Commission
1 of Experts reached," and the last sentence, I'm quoting the very last
2 sentence, and I believe that the interpreters have it on the screen:
3 "...The mortar bomb in question could therefore have been fired by either
4 side." End of quotation.
5 Now, Witness, were you ever informed of the existence of such a
6 correspondence dated the 16th of February, 1994, and signed by Mr. Boutros
7 Boutros Ghali who was at the time the Secretary-General?
8 A. No, I did not receive this document, and it is not within my
9 competence to receive it since I am just someone who was carrying out
10 tasks and it is up to the Prosecutor and other authorities who were
11 supposed to be given or receive this correspondence.
12 Q. Very well.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now Mr. President, to save
14 time, we have another document that we will also produce under the number
15 of D66, which is, in fact -- but we will show in a minute. We will change
16 the number, correct the number, which is the same source of the document,
17 which is the annex 6 to the final expert report for the day of the 5th of
18 February, 1994, which also gives the results of the Commission of
19 Experts. And we will also show it and tender, but I don't think that it
20 is actually necessary to show it to the witness since the witness cannot
21 read English. And this document is originating from the UN and is to do
22 with the correspondence of the 16th of February, 1994.
23 So if you do not ask me to show it, I won't. But I would tender
24 it since the origin of the document is the same.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Tender as proof of what?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Of the existence,
2 Mr. President, of a Commission, an ad hoc Commission, which was
3 established at the time, and of the results that this Commission reached,
4 and the conclusion being that the both parties could have fired this
5 mortar shell, if there was one.
6 MR. STAMP: The objection, which is a mild objection if I may put
7 it that way, to what my friend is doing is because of the procedure
8 because he is proposing to tender a document through a witness who knows
9 nothing about it. Those documents were given to the Defence by the
10 Prosecution. If the Court would have a look at the letter that we have
11 sent in respect of those documents, those are part of the Prosecution
12 case, and the Prosecution expects to tender those documents through
13 members of that same Commission. So this witness can't speak to it.
14 There are forthcoming witnesses who created those documents who are going
15 to be called by the Prosecution, and the documents are a part of the
16 Prosecution's case.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So as a matter of fact, what we are doing now is to
18 establish that these documents do exist. Let's just assume that these are
19 not forgeries and that these are copies of real United Nations documents.
20 Wouldn't it be -- at least that's what I assume the parties were to
21 present us with any documents which have the look of a United Nations
22 document. I do understand that Mr. Stamp says these documents will be
23 tendered by us soon, and especially the last part of your -- the last
24 document you intended to enter you said we don't have to show to the
25 witness because he can't read any English. So I would say wouldn't it be
1 better, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that if there's no direct relationship with
2 this witness, although, of course, there is a direct relationship of these
3 documents with the incident we are dealing with at this moment, that
4 perhaps you first wait and see that these documents are tendered as a --
5 in direct relation with the testimony of a witness. And if the
6 Prosecution would forget any document, then of course we would have to
7 think about introducing documentary evidence without any witness.
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please give your view on this --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Simply
10 this: It seems useful that we tender these -- that we show these
11 documents to the witness so that I can ask him questions on the simple
12 fact if he has ever seen these documents, if he has ever seen them. And I
13 believe it is important because we are talking about his knowledge about
14 this Commission. And we see that he was never interested in the results
15 of the Commission.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have asked, I noticed, five
17 times approximately on whether any result of a UN investigation became
18 known to the department of the witness, to the witness himself, whether
19 they ever asked for it. Okay, that's clear. If you just want to
20 establish that even this document and this conclusion of this Committee
21 ever became known, I'd rather say that if we just, for the transcript, say
22 that Document S1994-182, an official United Nations document, Security
23 Council, in its original version, English, has been put to the witness,
24 that a part has been translated to him, and that he has testified that he
25 was not aware of the existence of the document or of this conclusion,
1 would that be good enough to the time being as part of his testimony,
2 especially since we can expect that this document will be tendered in a
3 later stage by the Prosecution.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I am
5 afraid that I will have to give you a negative answer and I am very sorry
6 about it. First of all, we don't know at all that the Prosecution will
7 tender these documents, first of all. We could see that the Prosecution
8 changed its mind very often. And on the other hand, it is very important
9 for the Defence to know if the person who was in charge of this
10 investigation has ever seen these documents. That's why we want to show
11 them. That's a fundamental question, yes or no.
12 I can explain why it is fundamental.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: For several reasons, but being one of them that the
15 Prosecution intends to tender these documents anyhow. If they are
16 admitted in evidence it means that we can take it into consideration while
17 making out deliberations, so they can be admitted in evidence. So the
18 objection is denied.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I --
21 MR. STAMP: Before we proceed, could I ask that the second
22 document be circulated.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, of course. It has to be circulated.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I was obviously about to
1 JUDGE ORIE: The document has been returned to the Defence so that
2 they can present it in an orderly manner. Perhaps we'll wait until they
3 have prepared for that.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we put the
5 first page so that we can be certain of what we have here. The first page
6 is a cover page, simply so that we don't have any problems. And the
7 document consists of three pages, and it is -- it relates to the UNPROFOR
8 dated 5th of February, 1994.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what pages? I see one cover
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: What pages apart from the cover page are part of
13 the --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have pages 781, 82, 83 that
15 you see before you. But I simply gave the cover page as well because I
16 wanted to avoid any problems from the side of the Prosecution as to the
17 origin of the document. And the cover page is only indicative of the
18 source, of the origin.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're tendering a document
20 with some pages attached to each other, other pages loose. Would you
21 please present us in an orderly manner, that means first page first,
22 attached to the second or the third or whatever other page you'd like to
23 use, and present it in this way. Because --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, very well,
25 Mr. President. The reason for what you have is that at the time when we
1 made the photocopies --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm not that interested in the
3 reasons, although I have a full understanding that you might have faced
4 difficulties. What I'm interested in is to receive orderly copies of --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You will have as soon as the
6 photocopy machine starts functioning. It is out of order, and the Defence
7 can do nothing about it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, how many pages can we -- the whole
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. There are
11 three pages that I told you about, 781, 782, and 783.
12 JUDGE ORIE: What you need, as a matter of fact,
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is scissors to separate page 782 from 783. Then you
14 need a stapler in order to connect the front page to page 781 as the
15 first, 782 as the second, and 783 as the third, and as far as I can see,
16 you're not in need of any photocopying facilities for doing that.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Be glad to do it.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: But that will for the time, that's for the document
20 tendered. Please proceed. We'll help ourselves with the disorderly
21 copies. Please proceed.
22 MR. STAMP: Before my friend proceeds, may I just state for the
23 record, I did make an error when I said the Prosecution intended to tender
24 this document. I made that statement having not seen the document because
25 my friend said he was producing the report of the United Nations' team of
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I understood as well.
3 MR. STAMP: This is not the report of the United Nations' team of
4 experts. When I indicated to the Court that that report was part of our
5 case, I was not referring to this document.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you are now
7 presenting us with annex 6 to the report of the Committee of Experts
8 usually called the Cousico [phoen], or the Commission D'experts, which of
9 course is a different committee. But at least it has been clarified that
10 this will not be tendered by the Prosecution.
11 Please then proceed, having established that this is not
12 experts -- it's the same committee as the other document was referring
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I said was
15 that in these documents, there were, as well as in the letter that we saw
16 a moment ago, there were conclusions of experts.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Witness, you have before you certain documents --
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Sir, you have before you -- you have a before you a document.
24 Have you ever seen such a document in the past?
25 A. No, I have never seen such a document.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
2 MR. STAMP: If the document could be put on the ELMO.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, it is not necessary.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, Mr. Stamp asked whether it could
5 be put on the ELMO. We have a couple of pages in front of us. Would,
6 first of all, the front page which will not be tendered into evidence,
7 will that be returned to the Defence.
8 Would you then, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you are putting
9 questions to the witness concerning this document, indicate clearly which
10 page you're referring to or to all three pages, and have page 781 at this
11 moment on the ELMO.
12 Mr. Usher, could you please.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I treated this
14 document as a whole, because it is a whole. But I could see page by page,
15 I could show him whether he's seen one page, second page, third page.
16 Q. Witness, did you see this page or a document of this kind?
17 A. No, I have never seen it.
18 Q. Thank you for your answer.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Next page, please.
20 Q. Witness, you have before you 782, after you have seen 781. Have
21 you seen a page like this, or any similar page previously?
22 A. No, I have never seen. I did not have opportunity to see such a
24 Q. Witness, I would like to quote -- thank you very much.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Leave it, Mr. Usher. Leave it
1 as it was. I'm going to quote. You can stop here. I can quote what is
2 on the ELMO, I'm going to read the second sentence, which is relating to
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, yes.
5 MR. STAMP: The witness says he has never seen the documents. He
6 does not know the contents of the document.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But what I understand Mr. Piletta-Zanin wants
8 is to confront the witness with the findings of some other body.
9 MR. STAMP: Very well. As it pleases the Court.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I don't know what question will be
11 attached to it. But it does not seem to be inadmissible. Please proceed,
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. I'm going to quote the second sentence of the first paragraph that
15 we can read on the top of the page. And the grammatical subject being the
16 UNPROFOR, since some of the words are hidden by the margin, I'm going to
17 guess. So I'm going to start with "but."
18 "But that it had not been possible to determine the exact origin
19 of the launch and noted that Bosnian Serb and BiH forces had positions
20 close to other northeast of the city." That is end of quote.
21 Now, Witness, and this is my very last question: You have never
22 heard of this conclusion?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have no further questions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 Mr. Besic, you have been asked questions by the Defence. I'll
3 first ask the Prosecution whether there's any need to re-examine
4 Mr. Besic.
5 MR. STAMP: Just a couple questions.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
7 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:
8 Q. You were just shown by my friend a tape including incidents of the
9 4th of February, 1994, a tape recording, an investigation of the incident
10 of the 4th of February, 1994, in Dobrinja?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The extracts you were shown are from the tape which you brought to
13 this Tribunal last week?
14 A. Yes, this is the original tape which is the only one that the
15 police -- the police is the only one that has that. No one else has that
17 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. Nothing further.
18 JUDGE ORIE: First Judge Nieto-Navia has some questions for you.
19 Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I would like you to clarify for me and for the
22 Chamber, from which direction came the shell which exploded in the market,
23 cardinal points, I mean north, south, east, west, or something like that.
24 A. Northeast, from the northeast side.
25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Northeast. According to your knowledge, in
1 that part of the -- not of the city but of the outskirts of the city --
2 were the Serb army and the BH army close to each other?
3 A. Yes. In that -- on that side was -- were the confrontation lines
4 of the BH army and -- of the BH army members and of the Republika Srpska.
5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Elmahdi also has a question for you.
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 I would like to ask you to inform me on the subject of some
9 details that I would like to know more about, please.
10 The first detail is to do with what you said. If I remember well,
11 you said that you waited -- and I'm talking about the incident in the
12 Markale market, at the marketplace in Markale -- you said that you waited
13 for the arrival of the UNPROFOR. Was that normal, or rather why did you
14 wait? Did they inform you that they were coming? Did you know that they
15 were going to come? Did they tell you to wait for them so that they would
16 carry out the investigation? Could you please give me the answer on this
18 A. At the time when we arrived to the -- at the site of the incident
19 together with our colleagues, and five minutes later the Prosecutor and
20 the judge arrived. We started to carry out the investigation at the
21 moment when the judge gave his permission to carry out the investigation,
22 we started the work. We did not know that the UNPROFOR members would
23 arrive, but they did arrive after 15 minutes, as I said in my testimony.
24 At the time we were carrying out the investigation until the UNPROFOR
25 arrived, the investigation team was carrying out the investigation.
1 When the UNPROFOR arrived, they simply joined the investigation.
2 When the UN members arrived, we continued the teamwork. We showed them
3 the crater. We showed them where the stabiliser was, and on the
4 videotape, it is possible to see that they did it. It happened in cases
5 where there were a large number of victims that UNPROFOR members would
6 come to see what happened. In the case of Dobrinja, the UNPROFOR members
7 did not attend our investigation.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. I mean, no. You said --
9 yes, I mean, you, that is, your investigating team "clear the crater,
10 because the stabiliser is in it."
11 So my question is, I'd like you to tell me if it was a normal
12 procedure, was it a part of your job, of your task, with the -- to turn
13 over the work to the UNPROFOR, or was it that they wanted to help? I'd
14 simply like you to tell me, because you said that you told them, you asked
15 them or requested from them to perform a part of what is your chief
17 A. Yes, indeed, we performed our investigation, and we always did it
18 independently of UNPROFOR members. This time we conducted our
19 investigation normally, but when the UN members arrived, we wanted them to
20 do their job to see what it was all about and what the crater was like and
21 what was the whole site like, in order to avoid any misunderstandings, any
22 dilemmas, or any ideas about anything else. And that is why.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.
24 I shall move to another question. You said that you took the
25 photograph, that you took photographs of the market, and there was a
1 building which was used by the police or the army. And you said
2 that -- that it was a kind of a store, that it made clothes, uniforms for
3 the military.
4 A. No, I didn't say -- I didn't say it was a storage. I said it was
5 a store, that is, it was a building which had shops on the ground floor.
6 Right now, it is just a store, but before the war, it was selling
7 uniforms, military uniforms and police -- or rather, some part of the gear
8 was also sold there. That is different types of protective clothing for
9 firemen, for forest rangers, all kinds of protective clothing for the --
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But at the time of the incident,
11 was it still being used as such?
12 A. No, no. It didn't work, because there was no electricity, they
13 had no fabrics to use. So apart from the stock that they had, and then
14 from those stocks they would sell from time to time, and naturally the
15 civilian clothes because there were no more uniform or police or army
16 uniforms. When I mentioned army clothes, it is those uniforms which were
17 made by the previous army, that is, the Yugoslav People's Army.
18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. Thank you, and my very
19 last question, perhaps it will sound naive, but I'm not an expert. There
20 are -- is there some writing on this stabiliser? That is, are there some
21 codes or some marks or some figures? On the basis of figures that you see
22 or numbers that you see there, can you determine the origin or production
23 series, or is there the number of the series or whatever? How did you
24 identify the make of this -- of the shell or the stabiliser? Or is it
25 impossible? Usually one can trace a weapon because it has a number, and
1 then this number is effaced occasionally to prevent the tracing of this
2 weapon. Did you have any indications of that nature?
3 A. Yes, on this part of the stabiliser, there are some letters, and
4 there are some numbers. In one it says MM-74, and in the other one it
5 says KB 87-01. "KB" is in Cyrillic letters, and the first two letters are
6 KB -- KV and mean Krusik Valjevo. The year is 87, month 01. So January.
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And where is the factory, where
8 is that factory? Could you identify that?
9 A. Yes. Yes, it is a place called Valjevo in Serbia, and I presume
10 the name of the factory is Krusik, in Valjevo
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. I didn't quite follow.
12 You said KB. What does that mean?
13 A. Well, that would be how it would read in Latin alphabet, but B
14 Latin alphabet is a V in Cyrillic alphabet, so it stands for V. So this
15 KV in Cyrillic letters mean Krusik Valjevo. The year of production, 87,
16 the month of production, January.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Besic, since I've no further questions for you,
19 this ends the examination of you as a witness here. It has been a bit
20 tumultuous perhaps now and then, but as you may have noticed, that apart
21 from the information you have given in response to the questions of the
22 Prosecution and the Defence and of the Judges, there were some other
23 issues we had to deal with as well.
24 Mr. Besic, you may be aware that it's important for this Chamber
25 and for this Tribunal to hear the testimony of witnesses who have been
1 present during those days at the events which are the subject of our
2 cases. And therefore, we are very grateful that the witnesses come and
3 testify in this Court. So this thanks, I'd like also to express in
4 respect of you. We know it's a long way; we know it might not always be
5 easy to come to The Hague and to testify. I wish you a good journey home.
6 And once again thank you for coming and testifying.
7 Mr. Usher, would you please lead then, Mr. Besic, who is now
8 excused out of this courtroom.
9 [Witness excused]
10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break now, but before we go into the
11 break, we'll first have to deal with the exhibits.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: As far as the exhibits are concerned, documents might
14 not be that much of a problem. Tapes might be a great problem. I'd like
15 to invite the parties over the next 20 minutes to find out which tape of
16 the three or four we have been talking about, that's 2279, 2279A, and
17 there was even a 2279B prepared, as far as I understand, and the V000-3822
18 which tape contains all of the passages shown to this Chamber and to
19 agree upon tendering that tape as evidence.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you are placing
21 before the Defence an impossible objective. We cannot know which one
22 contains everything, because we need to compare them with all the
23 other tapes. It is much more complicated than to take scissors and cut an
24 exhibit. I believe it is up to the Prosecution to tell us if this or that
25 piece of evidence contains this or that fragment.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I invited the parties to see
2 whether they could agree upon it. If not, then we'll hear about it and
3 then we'll take a decision.
4 I'd like to make one additional remark: If I sometimes in very
5 gentle words give you a reprimand, I'm not amused by hearing the words I
6 used in reprimanding you to be repeated again and again by yourself as a
7 toy -- a word toy with which you'd like to play in this courtroom.
8 We'll adjourn until 5 minutes after 1.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.41 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could we perhaps please first start
12 with the easy part, the documents. Could you guide us.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2262, photo documentation, 14 pages in
14 B/C/S; P2262.1, English translation. P2309, a report bearing ERN number
15 0026-8351, report of 5 February, 1994, in B/C/S; P2309.1, English
16 translation. P2247, photo documentation bearing ERN number 0026-8244.
17 P2247.1, English translation. D60, document bearing ERN number
18 0026-8397. D61, document bearing ERN number 0026-8398. D62, report on
19 the forensic on-site investigation bearing ERN number 0026-8234; D62.1,
20 English translation. D63, a sketch of the stabiliser. D65, a letter of
21 United Nations Security Council dated 15 February, 1994. D66, three pages
22 of a report bearing page number 781, 782, and 783. D64 is a videotape.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd like first, since we have a few other
24 tapes, I would just stop before D64 at this very moment, and all the
25 documents referred to by the Registrar are admitted into evidence in part
1 of them the objections have been discussed prior to this final decision.
2 Then we have the videos. You mentioned already D64. Did the
3 parties agree upon which video contained all the elements, is that D64, or
4 should any other videotape be admitted into evidence bearing any
5 additional pieces of video shown to the Chamber? I'm just looking to both
6 parties at this moment.
7 Mr. Stamp, could you.
8 MR. STAMP: We have not been able to agree in respect to the
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. STAMP: The videotape presented by the Defence to the Court
12 today and at the conclusion yesterday appears to be the videotape which we
13 served on them.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. STAMP: And I believe it is, if I may, but we have not had an
16 opportunity to go through what was brought today.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. What we saw as a matter of
18 fact that there has been an original exhibit listed in the Article 65 ter
19 list. We then had a redacted version only showing those parts which we
20 would need. Then we returned to the full-length version. We then also
21 discussed whether a videotape could be redacted in such a way that it
22 would contain all parts shown to the Chamber, and then as a last
23 development, we had this V000-3822 version.
24 If the D64 videotape would contain every single piece of the
25 videos shown to the Chamber originating from the other tapes, and if you
1 would have been -- have had an opportunity to check that, would then D64
2 be a sufficient exhibit to be admitted in evidence?
3 MR. STAMP: It would be. And it would cover the 4th and the 5th.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, it would cover the 4th and the 5th, yes.
5 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I would then give you as a decision of the Chamber
7 that the D64 is admitted into evidence under the provision that if the
8 Prosecution, while checking the content of it, would find out that it's
9 not exactly the same but we of course all assume that this is the
10 videotape provided by the Prosecution to the Defence, then of course they
11 then could come back to it and challenge the earlier admission into
12 evidence of this videotape. And then I hope it will never happen, but
13 then we would have to compare the video in the hands of the Registry with
14 the video provided by the Prosecution as it is according to their view.
16 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President. I think that's indeed the
17 best solution.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So then we have a lot of videos now available to be
19 replayed in the future. That's, Madam Registrar, D64 is then admitted
20 into evidence. Then we have an artifact, which is...
21 THE REGISTRAR: This is the -- this bears the Prosecution number
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is now in the hands of the Registry, as soon
24 as it is admitted into evidence. That means that if one of the parties
25 wished --
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Although it may have been considered before just to
3 mark it for identification, I think especially the way it was used during
4 cross-examination, makes it necessary to give a decision on whether it's
5 admitted into evidence, and it is admitted in evidence. If the Defence
6 expert would like to inspect the artifact, of course, they will be given
7 an opportunity. That should, however, be under the control of the
8 Registry, as you'll understand. And whenever any examination of the
9 artifact is necessary in a way which would damage, if even slightly, we
10 all know that there are techniques of taking out perhaps 1/10th of a gram
11 of material in order to analyse it, then this would need specific approval
12 of the Chamber, and we'll first hear at least the other party on such an
13 examination of this artifact.
14 Having said this, I think we could -- you still are waiting on a
15 decision on when we'll hear the 92 bis. Yes, we have conferred, and it
16 could be done in the beginning of next week. And since Monday might not
17 be the most suitable day to do it, there might be a risk of late arrival
18 or whatever could happen, so perhaps we'll do it Tuesday in the morning.
20 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll then hear the parties before giving a
22 decision on the 92 bis request filed by the Prosecution.
23 Is the Prosecution then ready to call its next witness?
24 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just look on the list. Yes, that would be --
1 MR. STAMP: Ezrema Boskailo.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. STAMP: And there is facial distortion.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Facial distortion as protective measure.
5 Yes, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I'd like
7 to thank you for the manner in which the Chamber resolved the problem
8 because we would have to come back to it. There is the question of
9 experts, and this question gives rise to another point, and it is simply
10 possible that when Defence experts examine this exhibit, then perhaps
11 other questions will arise, questions which the Defence has not been able
12 to formulate until today. And I hope that it is clear to everybody that
13 the Defence will then perhaps request this witness to be recalled.
14 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, what I would expect under these
15 circumstances is that first the Defence then calls its expert while
16 presenting its case, and then from the testimony of this expert, it might
17 become clear that we have to recall the expert or the witness that has
18 been testifying before. And of course the Chamber is always in a position
19 to recall whatever witness they would need to hear again. Yes.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I thank your Chamber for
21 this. But I wanted to avoid in case we are reproached later on in
23 JUDGE ORIE: Of course.
24 Then, Mr. Usher, could you please bring in Ezrema Boskailo.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Boskailo, can you hear me in a language you
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No Interpretation]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving your testimony in this courtroom, the
5 Rules require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the
6 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and the text of this
7 declaration will be handed out to you now by the usher. May I invite you
8 to make that declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
12 Ms. Boskailo, you'll first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And please be aware that I checked whether your
15 facial distortion is functioning effectively. Yes, Mr. Stamp, please
17 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 WITNESS: EZREMA BOSKAILO
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Examined by Mr. Stamp:
21 Q. Will you please state your name for the record.
22 A. Ezrema Boskailo.
23 Q. And do you live in Sarajevo?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. For how long have you lived there?
1 A. About 30 years.
2 Q. You lived there during the conflict in 1993 and 1994?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Were you married at the time?
5 A. I was.
6 Q. Now, can you recall the 5th of February, 1994?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. That morning, did you leave your home and did you go anywhere?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Now, did you travel alone or did you travel with anyone?
11 A. I was with my husband and with my daughter.
12 Q. How many children did you have at that time?
13 A. Two.
14 Q. And what was your physical state at that time?
15 A. I was pregnant with my third child.
16 Q. What was the weather like that day?
17 A. The weather, as far as I was concerned, was quite nice. It was a
18 dry day. It was February. It was unusual for that time of the year.
19 Q. Can you recall if it was sunny, cloudy, clear?
20 A. It was clear.
21 Q. Now, did you remain with your husband all that day?
22 A. No.
23 Q. He left you with your daughter?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Now, did yourself and your daughter go anywhere in particular?
1 A. We set off to the market. Because I was pregnant, I wanted to buy
2 something that would cheer me up, because until then I did not have any
3 money and I received some money from my sister. So I wanted to get some
4 cheese and some cream cheese.
5 Q. I should have asked you this before, but what work do you do?
6 A. I am a dentist by profession, and I work as a teacher in a
7 secondary school.
8 Q. And were you employed in February 1994?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So did you attend the market with your daughter?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. And that is the Markale market in the downtown section of
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you to tell the Court slowly and in your own
16 words what happened when you went to the market, starting firstly with the
17 approximate time when you arrived at the market with your daughter.
18 A. I can't quite remember the exact time when I arrived there. I
19 know that I left my home about 10.30 in the morning. I stopped in town
20 for a little while, because I wanted to buy shoes for my daughter. In
21 fact, I wanted a shoemaker to make some shoes for her. So we walked. We
22 went towards the market. There was a large crowd there, which was unusual
23 for that time of the year. In fact, during the war, I had never walked
24 with my daughter in town.
25 Q. So do you recall the approximate time you arrived at the market?
1 A. Perhaps it was about 11.30, because when I arrived at the market,
2 I walked around a bit. I wanted to buy this cheese and cream cheese, but
3 the seller did not have any change to give me. Next to the market, there
4 is a 22nd of December shop where my friend worked, so I went to see her.
5 And so I --
6 Q. Go slowly. You went to the 22nd of December shop to see your
7 friend, but continue slowly.
8 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I'm sorry. So I stopped by at my friend's. I
9 hadn't seen her for a long time. I left my daughter with her, and I went
10 back to the market.
11 Q. While you were in the market, did you speak with any of the
12 vendors in the market in particular?
13 A. I spoke to the vendor from whom I wanted to buy this cheese and
14 cream cheese.
15 Q. Did you buy it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What happened after that?
18 A. I'm sorry, but I have to explain. I came to my friend, I brought
19 the cheese and the cream cheese. But then she said she wanted some, so I
20 returned again to the market. And that vendor was supposed to weigh this
21 cream cheese into two parts. And at that moment, behind my back, I heard
22 a tremendous blast, explosion, and the blast detonation threw me. I was
23 in shock. I did not know what was happening. I did not lose
24 consciousness. As I was thrown by the blast to the side, in fact, I felt
25 myself flying at that moment, and the first thing I thought about was my
1 daughter. I did not know what happened to her. I was in shock. I did
2 not know whether my daughter was alive, what was happening to me. I set
3 off to look for her, to crawl on the ground.
4 Q. When you set off -- sorry to interrupt you. When you set off, how
5 did you feel? Were you injured? Did you notice you were injured or not?
6 A. I was injured. At first, I didn't realise it. I looked to my
7 right leg. I had short boots on, and I had a coat on. I couldn't see my
8 short boot. My boot was off. A whole part had been torn off, and I also
9 looked down on my left leg, and I had some bleeding. My coat was torn by
10 shrapnel. My leg went dead, maybe from fear. I was worried that I could
11 bleed. But the entire time, I was worried about my child, whether she was
12 alive, where the shell had landed. And then I was four months' pregnant.
13 Q. You said you started to crawl -- you started to crawl. Towards
15 A. Yes, yes. I started to crawl towards where my daughter was. I
16 wanted to get to her, to see whether she was alive.
17 Q. That was, you started to crawl towards the 22nd of December
19 A. That's right, yes.
20 Q. Now approximately where in the market were you when you heard and
21 felt this explosion which threw you? Were you to the back, to the side,
22 the middle or the front? Can you remember where in the market you were?
23 A. Yes, I do remember. I was somewhere in the middle part of the
25 Q. And as you started to crawl towards the 22nd of September
1 building, could you see what was happening around you, if anything? What
2 did you see?
3 A. Of course, around me there were many injured people. It is very
4 difficult to explain. There was a man without a leg. A woman, I don't
5 know whether I had -- I was deafened by the blast, but everyone was crying
6 or whimpering, but I wasn't sure that it was that loud, because I think my
7 ears were deafened from the blast. But the more I crawled, the situation
8 was worse. I did not know where to look. Wherever I turned around me,
9 there were lots of body parts. There was a lot of blood. There was lots
10 of everything, the people.
11 MR. STAMP: I would like to show the witness, Mr. President, a
12 diagram, a sketch diagram of the accident. I was going to ask her where
13 she was and the direction which she --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Stamp.
15 MR. STAMP: It is not an exhibit. It is a sketch diagram. I
16 think we had indicated...
17 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to tender or just mark it for
19 MR. STAMP: I'd like to tender.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
21 Would you please put it on the ELMO, Mr. Usher.
22 Has the Defence received a copy?
23 MR. STAMP: I'd just like to confirm that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, even from a distance I can see it.
25 Ms. Boskailo, you can see in front of you on the screen the
1 picture which is on your right-hand side on the ELMO machine. If someone
2 asks you to point at something, then please do it on this machine on your
3 right-hand side, and you'll see that your pointer appears on the screen as
5 MR. STAMP: Could I, with your leave, Mr. President, ask her to
6 mark it?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay, if you want it to be marked then.
8 MR. STAMP:
9 Q. Now, on that sketch map, there's an area towards the bottom of it
10 with some numbers. Can you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, for the purposes of this illustration, could I ask you to
13 mark in the lines above those numbers the name of the street which was at
14 the front of the market.
15 A. In front of the market, the front of the market was Tito Street.
16 Q. Okay.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. STAMP: I'm asking to write, perhaps with a pen.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you use the blue pen. Perhaps if possible do
20 it on the ELMO so we can all see it. Mr. Usher, would you please assist
21 the witness. Put it on the machine and use the blue pen, and then write.
22 Yes. Just write the name of the street where the street is.
23 A. Marsal Tito Street.
24 MR. STAMP:
25 Q. Now, could you mark on the document with perhaps an X the place
1 where you were approximately when you felt that explosion which threw
3 A. [Marks].
4 Q. And that would be the stall where you were discussing the
5 apportioning of the cheese.
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. Now, if you could use dotted -- a dotted line to show us
8 approximately -- we understand the condition you were in -- the direction
9 in which you crawled?
10 A. The blast threw me towards this side, and so I went this way,
11 because I knew there was a passage here towards the 22nd of December.
12 Q. At the top there where you just pointed to the passage, could you
13 put that last line in the form of an arrow. Where you pointed the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. As you crawled to that area, did you realise approximately where
17 the centre of the explosion was?
18 A. At that time, I wasn't thinking about the explosion. I was in a
19 state of great shock. Up to that time, I have lived through shellings.
20 I've seen shellings, and I always thought I would be able to get cover, to
21 hide. But because I wanted to find my daughter and as I was coming across
22 more and more injured people and body parts, I felt that it was indeed a
23 shell that had landed. But I did not go to the 22nd of December because I
24 was stopped. I was prevented from doing so by some people. They tried --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Could I just interrupt you,
1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you're asking for a clarification of the record in
2 the directions, I was about to do the same.
3 Mr. Stamp, for the sake of the record, when the witness testified
4 that the direction she was thrown in by the blast, that was the dotted
5 line going downwards, whereas she testified about crawling to the 22nd of
6 December store, then that's where the dotted line goes upwards again.
7 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, and sorry for interrupting you,
9 Ms. Boskailo.
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. You said you were prevented from reaching to the 22nd of December
12 building. What's the correct name of the building? Please help me.
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. The building you were crawling to, can you recall the correct name
15 of it?
16 A. I don't know the name of the building. I know that the shop, in
17 fact, it's a workshop, a factory, was called 22nd of December, where my
18 friend worked as a secretary in this company.
19 Q. 22nd of December. Thank you.
20 Now, you were stopped by people. What did they do?
21 A. The people approached me to help me, and I was screaming in panic
22 saying that my daughter was around, but they told me that they will take
23 care of my daughter and that they had to take me to the hospital. A man,
24 I don't know who he was, he had a red Golf car. He put three or four of
25 us in his car, and I think we all had suffered slight injuries in
1 comparison to the people who had been left without body parts and who were
2 seriously wounded. So he took us to the hospital. He drove us to the
4 My daughter stayed at my friend's, and she was screaming, asking
5 for her mother. She did not know whether I was alive at all, and she was
6 in a great state of shock. And so my friend sent her brother to look for
7 me among the dead. And they didn't find me. And my daughter was
8 screaming in panic asking for her mother. And my husband who had left us
9 in the market shortly afterwards, he found out that a shell had landed in
10 Markale. And he thought that he had lost both his wife and his daughter.
11 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to stop there.
12 MR. STAMP: I don't know if it's a good time.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I wonder, I don't know exactly it will be
14 relative short testimony. Let me just confer with the Registrar.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the interpreters' booth, since I was just
18 informed that the courtroom will not be needed immediately after we leave
19 it, whether it would be a possibility to go on for -- and I'm also looking
20 for you, Mr. Stamp -- 15 minutes, 20 minutes. Would that be an accurate
22 MR. STAMP: That would be accurate.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking it because it's a relatively short
24 testimony, and if we break it up in two parts, that has some disadvantages
25 for all of us, including the witness I would say. But I'm just looking at
1 the booth on what would be possible and what would not be possible.
2 THE INTERPRETER: 15, 20 minutes without the break would be all
3 right, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I hear from the booth that some 20 minutes
5 should not create a problem. Unless there's some objection,
6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, I have a plane to
8 catch from Amsterdam. But it does not really matter. The Chamber has all
9 my time at its disposal.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
11 Ms. Boskailo we had to discuss -- usually we stop at a quarter to
12 2.00 -- but we could go on for another 15 or 20 minutes. Everyone is
13 prepared to listen to you. Mr. Stamp, if you can then
14 please proceed.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 MR. STAMP:
17 Q. That morning, did you see any military activity in the vicinity of
18 the market before that explosion?
19 A. No.
20 Q. What kind of people, what were the character of the people who
21 were in the market that you said were very crowded
22 A. There were lots of people, it was Saturday. So people as usual.
23 I mean, people shopping, looking for things, walking around, swapping
24 goods and so on and so forth.
25 Q. Now, when you arrived at the hospital, can you describe what you
1 saw there? Firstly, tell us what hospital you arrived at and briefly
2 describe what you saw at the hospital.
3 A. I was taken to the Kosevo hospital, to the emergency ward. And
4 when that man parked the car and helped me get out of the car, the door of
5 that reception ward, admission ward, was wide open. And there were
6 already very many people there. They were all lying on the floor. And
7 the hospital was milling with people and medical personnel. And there a
8 friend of mine, who recognised me, met me there. I was crying. I was
9 weeping. I was weeping in a panic.
10 Q. Did you remain at the hospital that day?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. When did you leave the hospital eventually?
13 A. I left the hospital in the evening. They came to fetch me and
14 took me away, and so I spent the whole day in the hospital. We had to
15 wait to be examined, because there were scores of patients and operations
16 were being performed so that it was only sometime in the evening -- or
17 rather, they came immediately and extended some first aid. But after
18 that, I had to wait for my wound to be treated. And my husband came to
19 fetch me -- rather, they came much before I could leave. My husband and a
20 friend of ours came and took me home.
21 Q. Did you return to the hospital from time to time for treatment?
22 A. Yes, I had to go to have my wound dressed and treated. It was the
23 first time that I had seen such wounds. Such wounds are very dirty, so
24 the tissue turns necrotic very quickly, and I have to clean the wound
25 every day and dress the wound over and over again. But since I'm of
1 medical profession myself and therefore I knew very many fellow medical
2 doctors and physicians, I also had home care.
3 Q. Did you get and provide to us copies of a medical report which you
4 obtained from the hospital?
5 A. I have my medical record. I don't know when I handed it over.
6 MR. STAMP: I propose to show her a document marked P226A.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. Could you assist us, Mr. Usher.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 MR. STAMP:
10 Q. And that is a copy of your medical record?
11 A. It is, yes.
12 Q. If you look at the top right-hand section of the document, can you
13 see it is dated the 11th of February, 1994?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you were injured on the 5th of February, 1994?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. Can you explain that, how it is that it is the 11th of February,
18 1994 on the document?
19 A. Yes, because I did not -- I was not hospitalised. I did not stay
20 in the hospital, and that day when I was in the hospital, you know --
21 rather, you don't know. I mean, there was panic all around. Everybody
22 was extended aid. Nobody wrote any documents at the time. And the
23 auxiliary personnel, the paramedics and everybody who worked in the
24 hospital were at the ready -- no, not at the ready, they were tending to
25 the wounded so that nobody wrote anything for me nor did they think at
1 that particular moment that it would be important.
2 Q. And you returned to the hospital on the 11th of February, 1994, I
3 take it?
4 A. Wait -- no, I went to the hospital before that. I went there
5 daily to have my wound dressed, but I never took or asked for any
6 document, for any paper.
7 Q. Now, you had known you said of situations and shellings and
8 snipings before.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But you said that this was the first time you were injured?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Has this event had any lasting psychological impact on you and on
13 your family?
14 A. Yes. For a long time, I dared not shut my eyes. I could not
15 sleep. No sooner would I close my eyes than a nightmare in my head would
16 start. And the same holds true of my daughter. She was also very
17 distraught, and we are still upset when we think back. My whole family,
18 point of fact, my husband and my other daughter, and my relatives, we were
19 all affected.
20 Q. Have you personally any lasting physical injury as a result of
21 that event?
22 A. I have a scar on my left leg. It is still visible. I have a
23 piece of shrapnel in my left leg, and I have another piece of shrapnel
24 near the mandibular in the lower part of mandible next to my spine. So I
25 am suffering the consequences. I still feel it in my back, in my spine,
1 and my legs.
2 Q. Now, you felt compelled to come here to testify. Can you just
3 tell us briefly why you have come.
4 A. I wouldn't be able to sleep otherwise. I have a moral obligation
5 towards all the casualties whose bodies perhaps protected me and my unborn
6 baby. And I often think of that. I wake up at night.
7 Q. And those casualties were the persons who stood between where you
8 were and where the shell exploded?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I have nothing
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
13 Let me just confer for one second with my colleagues.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: The reason why we took some time to confer is the
17 following: Ms. Boskailo, the Court will not sit tomorrow because of a
18 change in the Court schedule. This would mean for the cross-examination
19 that you would have to stay here in The Hague until next Monday. One of
20 the things I had in mind, whether -- and I really don't know whether it's
21 possible or not, but to find three quarters of an hour somewhere this
22 afternoon. But of course this would need all interpreters there, guards
23 there, transport of General Galic, also Defence because I know that
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin needs to fly back to his destination. But if, for
25 example, I don't know what was planned, whether Ms. Pilipovic would do it
1 or not. I don't know whether it's possible, but before giving a final
2 instruction as to when we'll resume your examination, that would be the
3 cross-examination by the Defence, I'd like to ask the parties to be
4 available to the Registrar to be informed about whether we could, let's
5 say, perhaps resume at 3.00. If that would not be possible, perhaps then
6 even later. I've also an appointment I have to change this afternoon.
7 But at least not to leave the building immediately, and remain available
8 for the Registry so to know when we will resume, either today or if this
9 would not be possible, then unfortunately you'd have to wait for three
10 days in order to come back Monday morning, 9.30, and then be
11 cross-examined by the Defence.
12 But if we can find a solution to conclude your examination today,
13 we'll do so. If this rather vague situation is acceptable for the parties
14 to finish at this moment, let me just...
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, I've almost forgotten, Ms. Boskailo, you
17 would have to be available as well. I mean, we cannot continue without
18 you as a witness. But you may have understood that we'll try to do it in
19 order to save you a couple of more days in The Hague just for perhaps less
20 than an hour cross-examination next Monday, so you would be able to return
22 So we'll adjourn now, but it's not for sure, until --
23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, only this: We
25 shall proceed to the cross-examination. I will do it, and I think it will
1 be very brief, and perhaps -- perhaps it might be useful to just go on,
2 perhaps for not more than 15 minutes, so that everybody can be set free
3 within a certain period of time. And to finish it now in one go.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then, of course, I have to ask the interpreters
5 because I don't want to ask the impossible from the interpreters. You
6 heard what Mr. Piletta-Zanin said, that it might be possible to conclude
7 in -- well, let's say at least in half an hour. It would be a splendid
8 solution, but if you say let's have a break of a quarter an hour first and
9 then take --
10 THE INTERPRETER: We shall do it for the witness, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: May I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your
12 willingness to do so. If there's no one else who -- I first have to
13 confirm whether the answer of one booth was the combined answer of all
15 THE INTERPRETER: The B/C/S booth confirms, Your Honour. We
16 cannot communicate with the French booth.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think then that we then, Ms. Boskailo, everyone is
18 ready to hear your answers on the questions of the Defence counsel. First
19 of all, I'd like to thank everyone very much for the spirit shown at this
20 very moment.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed,
23 Mr. President.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam. Thank you for being
1 here. And the first question I'd like to ask, I was asked to ask you
2 about the consequences, if there were any consequences of the injury and
3 the incident on your third child.
4 A. There were no consequences for my third child during the birth.
5 The only thing is, is that I have many consequencing during the pregnancy
6 to actually have to keep it to the end.
7 Q. Thank you very much for your answer. I will wait for a little
8 while for you to finish your answer for the transcript.
9 Witness, you spoke a minute ago, and this is page 80, line 6, you
10 told us about the shop 22nd of December. Do you remember?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you very much. You said that this was a factory. Is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you very much. What kind of factory was it?
16 A. It was a factory making clothes, and two-piece suits were made for
17 men and women. I bought suits there for myself, and I also heard that
18 equipment was made there for uniforms, for uniformed persons.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Now, madam, do you know if these uniforms
20 were made for the police or for the army or for both?
21 A. I really don't know.
22 Q. Yes, I believe you. Now, your friend who worked there in that
23 factory, was this factory still operational at the time when your friend
24 worked there?
25 A. She worked there. I had a jacket made for my daughter there.
1 Q. Very well. So your friend worked there. So the factory was still
2 operational. Is that how I should understand your answer?
3 A. No, there was a work obligation, and the people had to go there
4 for work obligation. And in that factory was also -- there was a sale
5 held there, and we were able to buy perhaps a suit for some 20
6 deutschmark, something like that.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask
9 Mr. Usher to help us if he can put the sketch on the ELMO, the sketch of
10 the Markale market. Thank you very much in advance.
11 Q. I will check whether the sketch is clear on my screen.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, it's very clear. Thank
13 you, Mr. Usher.
14 Q. Now, madam, you placed on this map certain markings. Now, by
15 chance, if you have to make any others, perhaps the usher could hand you
16 over a black marker, and not the blue marker, as we have to do this to
17 distinguish the markings.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is that right, Mr. President?
19 If that is all right.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
22 Q. Now, Witness, you have a black marker pen. You haven't marked on
23 this map, if you do know, where the impact occurred. If you do know that,
24 could you please mark it.
25 A. I'm sorry, I understood this sketch -- I thought that this was the
1 22nd of December. I believe this was the building, this here. Now, I
2 went --
3 Q. Sorry, I have to interrupt you. Before you're making the
4 markings, we have two problems. One is the repetitiveness of your actions
5 and also the speed of the interpretation. So please could you please wait
6 until I give the instructions to mark.
7 A. I apologise.
8 Q. No, there's nothing to apologise. Thank you very much.
9 Now, madam, you marked on this building which you marked across is
10 the shop of the 22nd of December. Is that right?
11 A. That's how I understand this sketch.
12 Q. Could you please speak clearly so that we can hear you audibly.
13 Okay, very well. Now, could you please mark next to this cross, could you
14 please mark number 1. Now next to the cross you have placed, could you
15 please mark number 1.
16 JUDGE ORIE: To avoid any misunderstanding, you're referring to
17 the cross made with the black pen, the last one?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Right now.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please add a "1" to the cross,
20 Ms. Boskailo, you just...
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely there, thank
22 you very much.
23 Q. And this is the 22nd of December shop. Is that correct?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Which building is it then?
1 A. I'm sorry. I don't orient myself very well with this sketch. I
2 know this is where Tito Street is.
3 Q. No, madam, please do not mark with that. My instructions, do not
4 use your marker pen unless I ask you to do that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Boskailo, I'll explain to you why we ask you to
6 wait to mark anything until we explicitly request you to do so. The blue
7 markings are the markings you made on the request of counsel for the
8 Prosecution. The black markings are those you make on an explicit request
9 of the Defence, so therefore if you make a black cross over the blue one,
10 this might confuse us.
11 I think the question was whether you -- and perhaps not use the
12 pen to start with -- whether you could indicate on this map, sketch,
13 exactly where the 22nd of December factory was.
14 Mr. Usher, would you please give the pointer to the witness.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what I was going
16 to ask, Mr. President. Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Boskailo, if you first point at things, and only
18 then at a -- at an explicit request, mark them. So the 22nd of December.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was here, and I was -- my
20 back was turned to the shop, to the 22nd of December. So the building was
21 behind me, and the shell landed to the right behind my back.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Now, I'm sorry, we're not talking about the shell. I have to
24 interrupt you here. So the building --
25 A. I apologise.
1 Q. That's okay. We're trying to gain time, that's why this is
2 happening. The 22nd of December building is to the right of the screen
3 after a very long vertical line of a rectangle, and I believe that this --
4 I believe that these are markings of these stalls, the market stalls. Is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, Witness, could you please now use the marker to denote the
8 building. And please use number 2. If you want -- but if you want, you
9 can always use the pen. Just open it and close it. But now could you
10 please mark number 2 on the building of the 22nd of December.
11 A. [Marks].
12 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, could you indicate for us what is at the
13 number 1, but please do not mark anything. You made a cross, and you
14 mentioned number 1. You indicated number 1. Do you know what is the name
15 of the building that is indicated like this? No, do not write, please.
16 A. I don't know how the building is called. This is where the
17 supermarket was.
18 Q. Yes, the building that you're indicating.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you Mr. Usher.
20 Q. Now, the building that you're indicating on number 1, what is that
21 building, if you do know?
22 A. It's a supermarket. This was a supermarket, and here, this was
23 the building of the 22nd of December.
24 Q. Very well. Things are clear.
25 Now, Witness, could you tell us with the pointer, as far as you
1 know, where was the point of the impact of the shell?
2 A. At that time, I did not know where the shell had landed. But
3 later on, when I returned to the market --
4 Q. Yes, very well. Later.
5 A. -- yes, very well, later, I found out that it was -- that the
6 shell had landed here.
7 Q. Now, I would like you to put a cross there and mark it with a
8 number "3," the location that you just indicated.
9 A. [Marks].
10 Q. And number 3, please.
11 A. [Marks].
12 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
13 Now, Witness, the building that you indicated with Number 2, this
14 is the building of the 22nd of December, how many floors does it have as
15 far as you know? If you do not recall, I can help you. If I say it has
16 approximately six floors, do you think that this is approximately correct?
17 A. I think it's fewer than that.
18 Q. Is it five or four?
19 A. Four than that. There are business premises on the ground floor
20 and upstairs perhaps is maybe one or two floors. Possibly one, I think
22 Q. Only one floor?
23 A. I'm not sure.
24 Q. Very well.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. Usher, if we can go
1 back to the map, if we can see the end of the building, Mr. Usher if you
2 would go down on the sketch on the ELMO. [In English] That's okay,
4 Q. [Interpretation] Now, madam, could you please tell us, up to --
5 where does the building of the 22nd of December go to, since you yourself
6 said that there was a passage, up to how far does this 22nd of December
7 building go?
8 A. It's not all the building of the 22nd of December. This building
9 is borders with the --
10 Q. No, I'm sorry. I'm talking about the superior part of the image,
11 the upper part, above the number 2. If we can see that the line is not
12 finished, now, could you tell us if here, the building of the 22nd of
13 December continues in this projection of this vertical line to the right
14 of the image?
15 A. I think it continues a little bit further.
16 Q. So I understood you correctly when you said it continues on? Is
17 that what it is?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know how many metres approximately?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Thank you for your answer.
22 Witness, now, let us return to the site and the issue, according
23 to you, how many people were at the marketplace at the time of the
25 A. I don't know how many people were at the market. I know that the
1 market was crowded. There were many people. It was a crowd.
2 Q. Now, I know that you said that your sense of orientation wasn't
3 particularly good, almost as bad as mine, so perhaps you could tell us if
4 you can locate the north on this sketch. Would you be able to tell us
5 where the north is on this sketch that you have to your right?
6 A. If this is north, then this is down south, and then it is east and
8 Q. Very well. Now, for the transcript, the witness indicated the
9 north being the part left -- the left part of the sketch, of the diagram
10 that we see on the screen, which then ends by a section angle, and the
11 south obviously being the opposite side, meaning where the building of the
12 22nd of December would be.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
14 MR. STAMP: I didn't actually -- at the present wasn't clear to me
15 where she indicated as north. If perhaps instead of her being put in a
16 situation where she says north, south, east, west, if she could just point
17 to one spot that she says is north so I know exactly where she is
18 indicating. Firstly, may be she could be asked if she knows where it is.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I have a totally different
20 question. Of course I do not know what it is that you want to establish,
21 whether the witness is aware of the market situation or what objectively
22 is the situation. If the last one is true, there are many means to
23 establish that.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. The question that was
25 going to come was to find out --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Was to
3 find out from the witness --
4 JUDGE ORIE: But of course I think the question from Mr. Stamp
5 whether the witness would know where it is would be fair.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Of course, of course.
7 [Interpretation] Yes, I'm sorry. Yes, I apologise, madam. We have a
8 technical problem.
9 Q. You said that you were able to tell us that such and such is
10 north, and I believe that you are able to do that. Am I right? Could you
11 on this map tell us one side, north, south, east, or west? If you can
12 show us with the pointer. Please do not mark anything on the map,
14 No, first of all, madam, are you able to indicate such and such a
15 cardinal point on this diagram?
16 A. I know what the cardinal points are, but I can orient myself by
17 this picture, by this drawing. I believe east would be on this side.
18 This would be the west then. North and south.
19 Q. Very well. Now, I first understood you meant the opposite, but
20 could you perhaps do it once again quickly. The building of the 22nd of
21 December is the north. Is that correct?
22 A. On this sketch, I think so.
23 Q. Very well. So that corresponds to the north. Is that what you're
24 saying at the moment?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you for your answer. I am not trying to put you in any
2 delicate position. If you do know where north is, then you do know. If
3 you don't know, it doesn't matter. Just say that.
4 Thank you for your answer. The very last question: Witness,
5 since you indicated for us that this building was north, do you know --
6 sorry, penultimate question -- do you know where the projectile came from?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
8 MR. STAMP: Again, he is asking the witness to speculate.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we do not know whether it's a speculation or
10 not. The question was whether she knows where it came from. Yes, this of
11 course could be direction or whatever may be the answer.
12 Yes, the question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin is whether you know where
13 the projectile that exploded on the market came from. And there again, if
14 you know it, please tell us. If you don't know it, then of course you
15 can't tell us.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I know is that the shell came
17 behind my back. It exploded behind my back.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Last
20 question, Mr. President.
21 Q. Madam, since you said a moment ago that you lived in Sarajevo
22 during the war and during these events, did you hear in the local press,
23 media, anything in relation to, number 1, a commission of experts or a
24 team of experts that had established where this firing came from; and
25 number 2, if you have, have you heard of a result of such commission of
1 their investigation?
2 A. I never heard anything, nor was I really wanting to remember these
3 events that I lived through. First of all, it was -- I was becoming very
4 emotional about it. And it upset my family life and my life a great
6 Q. Thank you for that answer.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We do not have any more
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 Mr. Stamp, is there any need for the Prosecution to re-examine the
12 MR. STAMP: Just a couple.
13 JUDGE ORIE: A few more questions to you by the counsel for the
15 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:
16 Q. In respect to that sketch that is in front of you, are you quite
17 sure where east, west, north, south is or are you guessing at these
19 A. I'm not sure where is what. It was guesswork on my part. I know
20 that to the right is east, to the left is west, north is up, south is
21 down. But with this sketch before me, I'm not sure.
22 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Boskailo, this concludes your testimony in this
24 Court. I think you'll now better understand why we tried to conclude it
25 today and not let you wait for a couple of days and then return for just
1 the last half hour. Because we are all aware that it's quite something
2 for you. You explained to us why you came, and we do not underestimate
3 what it means for witnesses to come from such a distance to tell this
4 Court and to answer to the questions of the parties about those events
5 that happened meanwhile many years ago, because it's important for this
6 Court to hear from those who were present during these days, to hear what
7 they have got to tell us answering the questions of both parties.
8 Therefore, I'd like to thank you very much, since it is important
9 for the decisions we'll have to take. So I thank you very much, and I
10 hope you have a safe trip home. And I, of course, hope that they will be
11 able to arrange for your return to your family as soon as possible. Thank
12 you very much for coming.
13 Mr. Usher --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please lead Mrs. Boskailo out of the
16 courtroom. We'll then deal with the exhibits. We have to deal with one
17 small technical issue, Ms. Boskailo. We'll do that.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to express my gratitude for the Defence for
20 the format they presented the annex D66.
21 We have two exhibits tendered. The first one is an easy one. I
22 think that's P2265A, which is the medical report. And that may be
23 admitted no evidence. But the second one, Mr. -- And the translation as
24 well, that's P2265A.1. I see that we have a new number. That was my
25 question. New number for the sketch. Madam Registrar, I better leave it
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to you.
2 THE REGISTRAR: The number for the diagram marked by the witness
3 is P3664.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I should have known by now that I better leave it in
5 your hands than to take over, Madam Registrar. Thank you very much.
6 I would like to thank all the parties and General Galic and the
7 technical assistants and the interpreters for enabling the Chamber to
8 excuse the witness today. Thank you very much for that.
9 Tomorrow we'll not sit. That means that we'll adjourn until next
10 Monday morning at 9.30. And I have to warn the parties that it might be
11 in a different courtroom. I know that a few changes might be made either
12 today or tomorrow. So would you please inform yourselves with the
13 Registry whether it would be Courtroom II or another courtroom.
14 We'll then adjourn until 9.30 next Monday in a courtroom.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
16 2.32 p.m., to be reconvened on
17 Monday, the 11th day of March, 2000,
18 at 9.30 p.m.--