Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5072

1 Monday, 11 March 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom. I have to

6 re-orient myself, being in a different courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Is there anything -- that's my usual question Monday

11 morning -- the parties would like to raise? Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I should

13 like to ask your leave to give me -- to grant me four minutes because I'd

14 like to raise some questions.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It seems that one of the

17 microphones of my colleague does not work. It seems that this is not

18 working -- this is not what I was going to say, but we have perhaps to

19 resolve this technical problem first, so can we have a technician to help

20 us.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It seems that we made some

23 headway and the system is now working.

24 Can I have three minutes at the end of today's session, or would

25 you rather that I do it now? Perhaps at the end of the day.

Page 5073

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Do you mean towards the morning

2 session, at 1.00 --

3 THE INTERPRETER: When two speakers speak simultaneously, the

4 interpreters and court reporters are not able to do their job properly.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for speaking at the same time as

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Perhaps rather I speak English which forces me to

7 wait. Perhaps at the end of the morning session, we could perhaps ask

8 about Witness Q, Mr. Stamp, so that we have everything at one time.

9 Perhaps we now continue the examination of your witness.

10 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And that would be, Mr. Stamp?

12 MR. STAMP: That would be Esad Hadzimuratovic. While he's being

13 brought, may I just indicate to the Court that we, of course, noted the

14 strong recommendation made by the Court last week that certain positions

15 may be agreed upon, and we are in the process of preparing a map with the

16 precise positioning of the shelling impact sites of the tunnel that was at

17 issue when you raised a question, Mr. President. And we hope to have an

18 agreement with the Defence some time in the course of this week as to the

19 positioning of some of these very basic locations.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was mainly that if we asked the witnesses to

21 tell us what the distance is between two points, if you want to know the

22 distance exactly for sure, you'll not get the precise answer. If, of

23 course, on the other hand, you'd like to know whether the witness is able

24 to estimate distances, of course that's a different question. But if you

25 just want to establish the distance, then I think usually maps do far

Page 5074

1 better than witness testimonies.

2 MR. STAMP: So we hope to arrive at some compromise.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, the reason

5 we raise this question is precisely what the Prosecution says. Everybody

6 has realised that the Defence is about to prepare a map of shelling and

7 the chief military targets. There are this number of objectives, there

8 are also targets, and there are other targets, and this map would apply to

9 that testimony. And that is why I raised the question, so that the

10 Chamber could later on if it wishes to go testimony by testimony and we

11 have been working on a system transparent system, that is, to have a more

12 transparent idea of the evidence, testimony by testimony, and it is this

13 rather important work that the Defence has engaged in. So what has just

14 been said will be a major headway, and the Defence appreciate this.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think if there's anything you'd like to add,

16 Mr. Stamp, please do so. Otherwise, could then the witness please be

17 brought into the courtroom.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzimuratovic, first of all, welcome in this

22 courtroom. Before giving your testimony, the Rules of Procedure and

23 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the

24 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The usher will now

25 give you the text of this solemn declaration, and I invite you to make

Page 5075

1 that declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Hadzimuratovic. Please be

5 seated.

6 Mr. Hadzimuratovic, the order in this courtroom is that you'll

7 first be questioned -- you'll first be examined by the counsel for the

8 Prosecution, then later you'll be questioned by counsel for the Defence,

9 and if there are any additional questions from the Bench, we'll put them

10 to you.

11 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

12 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 WITNESS: ESAD HADZIMURATOVIC

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

16 Q. Could you please state your full name.

17 A. My name is Esad Hadzimuratovic.

18 Q. What type of work do you do, Mr. Hadzimuratovic?

19 A. I'm a taxi driver in Sarajevo.

20 Q. And do you liver -- live in Sarajevo?

21 A. I do, yes.

22 Q. For about how long have you lived there?

23 A. Since the day of my birth, that is, 55 -- no, sorry, 52 years.

24 Q. And I take it you lived there during the conflict between 1992 and

25 1995?

Page 5076

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. And in that period of time, what type of work did you do?

3 A. Same thing. This profession that I have, that I have been in for

4 the past 30 years. I'm a taxi driver.

5 Q. Now, do you recall the 5th of February, 1994?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That day, at about mid-day, where were you?

8 A. About noon that day, I was on the corner of the streets Dzenetica

9 cikma --

10 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness please repeat the name of

11 the other street.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzimuratovic, could you please repeat the name

13 of the other street.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pellevanutia and Dzenetica cikma.

15 MR. STAMP:

16 Q. Now, do you recall Markale market?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. Can you say where that corner is in relation to Markale market?

19 A. That corner is about 20 to 30 metres away from the Markale market.

20 Q. Is it 20 to 30 metres to the back, aside, or the front of the

21 market?

22 A. Back of the market, that is, not towards where the tram tracks

23 are, but on the opposite side.

24 Q. What were you doing there at this time?

25 A. Doing my job, driving a taxi.

Page 5077

1 Q. Now, could you tell us, did you -- did anything happen that day at

2 about that time?

3 A. After 12.00, I saw -- I saw people running, that is, after the

4 shell fell.

5 Q. You said a shell fell. Prior to when this shell fell, did you

6 hear or see anything?

7 A. Yes, I heard the whistle of the shell as it flew over my head.

8 Q. When you first heard the whistle of the shell, which direction was

9 it coming from?

10 A. It came from the north, from the direction of Mrkovici.

11 Q. Was this the first time you had heard the whistling of a shell?

12 A. Yes -- no. It wasn't the first time for me. It was the first

13 time that day. Now, after you heard the whistling of the shell passing

14 over you, did you hear anything after that?

15 A. Yes, I heard the glass being broken and explosion, and then people

16 started running towards me, fleeing from the market.

17 Q. Where did the sound of the explosion come from?

18 A. To my left.

19 Q. Do you know the place where it came from?

20 A. Yes, from the market.

21 Q. After you heard this explosion and saw the people crying and

22 running, could you tell us slowly in your own words, if you did anything,

23 and if so, what did you do?

24 A. Well, when I saw people -- rather, when I heard the explosion and

25 saw people running towards me, instead of trying to take cover. I also

Page 5078

1 started to look for some cover with them.

2 Q. At the time when you heard this whistling and this explosion, were

3 you inside your car, outside your car?

4 A. No, I was standing on the corner of these two streets which I

5 mentioned a moment ago.

6 Q. And where was your taxi car?

7 A. My car was on the corner of Dzenetica cikma, that is right next to

8 Borista Kovacevic in front of me.

9 Q. Did you do anything after that?

10 A. Well, after all I didn't enter a building to take cover as the

11 others. I got into my car, switched it on, and went back to the entrance

12 into the market.

13 Q. Which entrance did you go to?

14 A. The back one, the rear one, because there are two entrances.

15 There is one from Dzenetica cikma and from Marsal Tito, and on that side,

16 the whole side is open getting on to the street.

17 Q. When you went to the back entrance, did you see anything or

18 anyone?

19 A. I did, yes. I could see people still fleeing away from the

20 market, and those who were healthy were carrying wounded towards my car.

21 Q. And what happened after that? Did you do anything after that?

22 A. Yes, I opened the door of my car, and they put in as many people

23 into the car as they could fit, and I set off towards the hospital.

24 Q. The people that they put into your car, in what condition were

25 they physically?

Page 5079

1 A. They were in mortal fear and we realised that we had to pull out

2 the wounded.

3 Q. Physically the people that you took or you set off with to the

4 hospital, how did they appear to you? What did you see about them, if

5 anything?

6 A. They were terrified, like when you are taken aback by something.

7 How do I put it? They were surprised that this had happened to them.

8 Q. Were these people wounded or were they only frightened?

9 A. Those whom I took away were wounded.

10 Q. And to which hospital did you take them?

11 A. To the Kosevo clinical centre.

12 Q. And what did you do at the Kosevo clinical centre?

13 A. I handed them over to doctors and paramedics, and I then went back

14 to the Markale market to see if there was somebody else that needed to be

15 driven away.

16 Q. And when you returned to the market, did you see anybody or see

17 anything?

18 A. I could still see, even though I didn't enter there, I could still

19 see chaos, people running to and fro, taking cover, picking up what --

20 picking up what I do not know, but they were doing it. And then they

21 brought another round as they said, and I took another lot to the

22 hospital.

23 Q. "Another lot," another lot, you mean another lot of wounded

24 people?

25 A. That's right. That's right. Quite so.

Page 5080

1 Q. Was your vehicle the only vehicle that transported wounded people

2 to the hospital?

3 A. Oh, no. They were very many of them. And on the other side, they

4 took many more people. But whoever happened to be there who had a car

5 took them away. I mean nobody passed by without giving somebody a lift,

6 taking somebody.

7 Q. After that, did you do anything or go anywhere, that is, after you

8 took the second round, as you call it, to the hospital?

9 A. I went back to my taxi stand, and I did go to the market to look

10 around. But it was after the wounded and that had been taken away, so

11 there was nothing else except that everything was in complete disarray.

12 Q. That evening, did you watch television, BiH, or television for

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. And did you see anything on particular on the TV news that day?

16 A. I saw this massacre which had happened at Markale.

17 Q. Do you remember on the 19th of November, 1995, being interviewed

18 by an ICTY investigator and marking a map?

19 A. I do. I talked with -- I don't know. Yes, I think Kovacovic is

20 the name of the street. It is the former police office, I think.

21 Q. When you marked that map for the ICTY investigator in 1995, you

22 signed it, did you?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your leave, may I

25 offer to the witness Exhibit P3121.

Page 5081

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Stamp.

2 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, the

5 Defence is afraid that we will be faced once again with the black-box

6 syndrome. This is the document that we have but not everything is fully

7 visible. I wonder whether the Prosecutor has a more clear and visible

8 copy to provide to us. Thank you.

9 However, we seem to be making progress, Mr. President. Thank

10 you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, then, Mr. Stamp.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one thing,

13 please: I should like to indicate that the Defence accepts -- would like

14 to have a larger format in the case of these documents. This is a very

15 small format. We do have a more clear, more legible document. We would

16 like to receive from the Prosecutor better and larger copies, because on

17 this format, there is simply nothing we can do or make out.

18 MR. STAMP: [Previous translation continues]...

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

20 MR. STAMP: I'm advised that the large version was disclosed to

21 the Defence in April last year. It might well be difficult for them to

22 keep track of some of these documents, but we make an effort to disclose

23 the appropriate size or a size which is legible and useful. But my

24 instructions are that that was disclosed.

25 JUDGE ORIE: This is the size used when the witness marked the

Page 5082

1 map?

2 MR. STAMP: That was the size I'm instructed that was disclosed to

3 the Defence in April last year.

4 JUDGE ORIE: If it comes to confronting the witness with the map

5 he marked, this is the size of the map he marked, so then it only is

6 whether it's for the convenience of the Defence that they would be able,

7 perhaps, to compare this map with a larger version of the same map. But

8 we have seen several times larger portions of this map. Is it still

9 available to the Defence -- I mean a larger scale, not larger portions.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I think

11 we do have the necessary maps. My colleague is telling me that this

12 format has not been disclosed. What has been disclosed is a much smaller

13 format where we cannot see everything clear. If that was the case,

14 Mr. Stamp, I should like to know when this disclosure was made. The way

15 things stand now, I don't think that that was the case.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I would say that we first proceed and see where the

17 scale of the map really causes us problems instead of debating the scale

18 of this map just on a very general basis. And apart from that, we can

19 enlarge it on the ELMO, if necessary.

20 Please, Mr. Stamp.

21 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

22 Q. Do you see your signature on that map?

23 A. Yes, I can see it here.

24 Q. And on that map you marked a line?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5083

1 Q. What does that show, that line show?

2 A. The line indicates the direction from which the shell came, from

3 the village of Mrkovici, to the point of impact.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm really

6 sorry, but I think that we will be tendering this document soon because on

7 this one, it is not very clear. It is not visible, and I don't think that

8 it was a fair way to proceed.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just -- Mr. Usher, could you please present

10 the map which has been given to Mr. Piletta-Zanin to the Court so we can

11 see whether it's of any worse quality.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is this the map, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that has just

14 been given to you, or is this a map that has been provided to you before?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. The map that we have just

16 received is this one. We see things more clearly in red. On the map that

17 we had, things are not as legible. Now we know it's an arrow, but before

18 we were not aware of it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. STAMP: May I be able to look at that, Mr. Usher. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: We see that the map that has been given to you today

22 is clearer and is greater and has a red arrow instead of a black arrow,

23 but I wouldn't say on the earlier version you couldn't see the arrow

24 although it was less clear. So I would say let's first just proceed and

25 see where... Whenever we come at a specific point where the Defence takes

Page 5084

1 the view that it has been handicapped in preparation of the

2 cross-examination of the witness, then I'd like to be informed.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

4 MR. STAMP:

5 Q. Finally, Mr. Hadzimuratovic, did you see any military activity in

6 the vicinity of the marketplace that day?

7 A. No. No.

8 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I have nothing

9 further from this witness for the time being.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Ms. Pilipovic, is it you who is going to

11 cross-examine the witness?

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzimuratovic, you'll now be examined by counsel

14 for the Defence. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzimuratovic, good morning.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Today you testified during the examination-in-chief that you had

20 given a statement to the OTP investigators on the 19th of November, 1995.

21 Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. Prior to the 11t of November, 1995, had you ever given any other

24 statement except for the one that you gave to the OTP investigators?

25 A. Yes, to MUP officials.

Page 5085

1 Q. Could you tell us when that was, when did you give a statement to

2 the MUP officials?

3 A. I don't recall the date.

4 Q. As regards to the event which you eyewitnessed which took place on

5 the 5th of February, 1994, how much later did you give a statement

6 concerning these events?

7 A. I don't know exactly. It must have been two, three, or four days

8 after the event.

9 Q. Did you volunteer to give a statement, or was it the case that the

10 members of the MUP came to see you? Could you explain to us how it came

11 about that you gave a statement to the MUP officials concerning this

12 event.

13 A. After it happened, they were at the market near the stalls, and

14 they asked who had been present when it happened and I told them I was.

15 Q. So that was on the 5th of February. Is that when you talked to

16 the police?

17 A. No. The event itself took place on the 5th of February, but they

18 came later.

19 Q. How many days after the event did that take place?

20 A. Like I said, three, four, to five days later. I don't know

21 exactly.

22 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you told us that you have been a

23 taxi driver for 30 years?

24 A. Yes, since 1973.

25 Q. During the conflict in Sarajevo, that is, in 1992, 1993, and 1994,

Page 5086

1 did you work as a taxi driver?

2 A. In 1992 and 1993, I worked for the Defence of Sarajevo, and in

3 November 1993, I took up my work again.

4 Q. You said you worked for the Defence of Sarajevo in 1992 and 1993.

5 Does it mean that you were a member of the BH army?

6 A. No, I was a member of the MUP. That is, of the reserve police

7 force.

8 Q. As a member of the reserve police force, were you a police officer

9 or a soldier?

10 A. A police officer.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

12 the Defence would like to show the witness the statement that he gave to

13 the OTP investigators on the 19th of November, 1995. We should like to

14 show the witness only one line of his statement and ask him questions

15 about it. If it is necessary, we can provide the witness with the

16 original of the statement to begin with so that the witness can identify

17 the statement as being his and tell us whether the signature on it is his

18 signature. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, you'll be shown now a

20 statement. Could you confirm that that is the statement you made and that

21 you signed.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my signature.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hadzimuratovic.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you then please return the document

Page 5087

1 to Ms. Pilipovic. And I do understand, Ms. Pilipovic, you're using only

2 one or two lines?

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, in your statement, on page 2, ERN 0036-1210, in line 5,

7 you stated as follows: "I was a soldier during this war, and I'm used to

8 these kind of whistling sounds that characterise a passing by shell."

9 Could you tell us, then, whether you were a soldier or a police

10 officer?

11 A. I was both. Up until May -- no June, 1992, I was a police

12 officer. Later on I was a soldier, that is a driver, for the defence of

13 the Stari Grad neighbourhood.

14 Q. Why didn't you tell us that right away, Mr. Hadzimuratovic?

15 A. Well, I thought I had to take a pick.

16 Q. So up until the month of June, you were a reserve police officer.

17 During that period of time, where was your headquarters? Where was the

18 command of the reserve police force?

19 A. Have you finished your question?

20 Q. Yes. Yes, I have.

21 A. The place where we usually gathered was the police station in the

22 Stari Grad municipality.

23 Q. Where exactly was that police station?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat the

25 name of the street. We didn't get it.

Page 5088

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzimuratovic, could you please repeat the name

2 of the street you just mentioned because the interpreters could not follow

3 you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem. The name of the street

5 today is Logavina.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, I'll -- you are speaking

7 the same language as Ms. Pilipovic does. That means that if you start

8 answering the question immediately when you heard it, the interpreters

9 will not have sufficient time to translate for those who do not understand

10 your language whatever has been said. So would you please look at your

11 screen and when you heard the question, nevertheless wait until the text

12 doesn't move any more, that means that it has been interpreted, and then

13 give your answer.

14 You see now it stopped moving. Yes?

15 Please, Ms. Pilipovic, proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, you have in front of you a map which is a map

18 of the town of Sarajevo. Could you indicate for us the location of the

19 police command in the street that you just mentioned. You could perhaps

20 use a black marker to do that and mark the exact spot.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to be sure that the map has been

22 premarked, but only in red as far as I can see. So any additional black

23 markings would create no confusion, I assume. Yes, please proceed,

24 Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5089

1 Q. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, would you please mark with a black marker with

2 number 1 the location of the reserve police force.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. Could you draw a slightly larger figure please and encircle it.

5 A. [Marks].

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness marked

7 with number "1" the location where the meeting point -- or rather the

8 command of the reserve police force was.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we please zoom in a bit since we repeat

10 the markings on our own maps so that we can better follow where the

11 marking is made exactly.

12 Yes, that's excellent.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, can you tell us what you were wearing at that

15 time and what kind of weapons you had been issued with whilst you were a

16 member of the reserve police force. Did you have a uniform?

17 A. Yes, I did have a uniform, a uniform of the reserve police force

18 during that period of time. And I had an automatic rifle, an old

19 automatic rifle.

20 Q. Could you tell us what the colour of the uniform was?

21 A. Blue.

22 Q. How many members of the reserve police force were there who

23 gathered at this place, do you know?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You don't know or you don't want to tell us?

Page 5090

1 A. I don't know, but I don't think I would tell you anyway because it

2 is a kind of secret, and I have nothing to do with that as a soldier or a

3 police officer.

4 Q. So you don't want to tell us?

5 A. Well, I'm not telling you because I don't know. And even if I

6 knew, I'm not competent to tell you about these matters.

7 Q. Witness, you're under an oath here.

8 A. Well, I am telling you the truth, however --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzimuratovic, if for whatever reason you think

10 that you should not answer a question, and I do understand that that's not

11 your position at this moment because you said you didn't answer the

12 question because you did not know. But if there ever comes a moment where

13 you think that you know the answer but you don't want to tell the answer,

14 would you please then address me so that we can see what to do and not --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, I apologise.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- engage in any debate with counsel.

17 Please proceed.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, can you tell us how many people were members of the

22 reserve police force, that is, members of the group which you said was

23 based at the command post that you indicated for us?

24 A. I don't know that.

25 Q. Can you tell us who your commander was?

Page 5091

1 A. I do not want to answer that question.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, is there any specific

4 reason why you don't want to answer the question? Because you'll

5 understand that we try to find out as precisely as possible what happened

6 in these days, and that means that both parties will try to get

7 information on who was in charge on both sides. So in general, I would

8 say that this information should be given. But if there's any specific

9 reason why you think that you should not give an answer to the question,

10 please let me know.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think I am

12 competent to give you these names. I, myself, was a member of a smaller

13 unit, and I knew my commander, the commander of this small unit. Whether

14 I am allowed to provide that information, I don't know. I don't think it

15 has anything to do with this case.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzimuratovic, of course the structure and the

17 command positions on both sides are part of the information the parties

18 are trying to put in front of this Chamber. So I think you could answer

19 the question as far as you know who your commander was in the reserve

20 police force.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My commander was Emir Vatres.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hadzimuratovic.

23 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness, you've just told us that you were a member of a smaller

Page 5092

1 unit and that you knew who the commander of this smaller unit was. How

2 many members were there in this smaller unit?

3 A. I didn't know the exact number. I was a member of the shift which

4 had about 12 members. I did not have any specific insight into the state

5 of affairs of this unit.

6 Q. You told us you worked in shifts and that there were 12 of you in

7 one shift. Could you tell us something more about it. How were your

8 shifts organised and where were you when you were on duty? Were you

9 deployed at various positions or were you inside the building?

10 A. The shift lasted eight hours, and we were located inside the

11 building.

12 Q. You told us that from June 1992 onwards, you were a soldier?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What military formation did you belong to?

15 A. I belonged to the municipal staff of the Old Town municipality.

16 Q. What kind of military formation was it, was it a brigade, a

17 battalion, or a company?

18 A. This was the staff, the headquarters.

19 Q. What kind of headquarters was it?

20 A. The headquarters of the Old Town municipality.

21 Q. Could you indicate for us on the map the location of the

22 headquarters of the BH army, that is, the headquarters to which you

23 belonged.

24 A. Here approximately.

25 Q. Could you tell us the name of the street, please, and mark the

Page 5093

1 location with number 2.

2 A. The name of the street is Branilaca Grada. The exact location

3 should be here more or less.

4 Q. Would you indicate it with number 2, please.

5 A. [Marks].

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness marked

7 with number "2" the headquarters of the BH army in Branilaca Grada Street.

8 Q. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, when you became a member of the BH army, what

9 kind of uniform were you issued with, and also what kind of weapons were

10 you given?

11 A. I did not have any weapon. I did not have any uniform. All I had

12 was my car that I used to drive around.

13 Q. Is it your testimony that you were a driver who worked for the

14 headquarters, that is, for the BH army?

15 A. Yes, but this was not the BH army headquarters. It was a smaller

16 headquarters, a municipal headquarters.

17 Q. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, you marked with number 2 the headquarters of

18 the Stari Grad municipality. Can you explain to us what military

19 formation was quartered in Branilaca Grada Street that you marked with

20 number 2?

21 A. It was the municipal staff for Stari Grad, for Stari Grad

22 municipality.

23 Q. Please, since at that time there was a war in Sarajevo, tell us,

24 what was the role of this municipal staff?

25 A. I was a driver, so how could I know its proper role? They were

Page 5094

1 active in the municipality of Stari Grad.

2 Q. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, if you told us that as of June 1992 you were a

3 soldier, and you took the oath here that you would be telling the truth,

4 so tell us which military formation did you belong to?

5 A. Stari Grad municipal staff.

6 Q. And who was the commander of that municipal staff?

7 A. At that time, it was Hamid Bahto.

8 Q. And Mr. Hamid Bahto, was he a soldier, and what military

9 formation did he belong to?

10 A. He was a soldier and belonged to that formation at the municipal

11 staff.

12 Q. And you, as a member of the municipal staff, did you take also

13 part, that is, did you go to the front lines?

14 A. No.

15 Q. As a soldier of the municipal staff in 1992 and 1993, what did you

16 do?

17 A. I was a driver.

18 Q. Whom did you drive?

19 A. Everybody, whoever needed transportation and based on the

20 commander's order.

21 Q. When you say "based on the commander's order," do you mean the

22 commander Hamid?

23 A. Mr. Hamid Bahto order.

24 Q. You told us that Mr. Hamid Bahto was a soldier. What rank did

25 he have?

Page 5095

1 A. He was a soldier. He was a military, but what his rank was I

2 didn't know. He was just a commander.

3 Q. Mr. Hamid Bahto as your commander and the commander of that staff,

4 the municipal one, what kind of formation did he have under his command?

5 How many men did the Stari Grad municipal staff have?

6 A. Believe me, I don't know. I don't know the size of that

7 formation.

8 Q. Can you tell us in which building on that street was the

9 headquarters of that staff?

10 A. In the municipal hall, Stari Grad.

11 Q. So you are telling us that this is the municipal hall, like the

12 one that was there before the war?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Since you told us that you were a driver and you drove as ordered,

15 the staff commander, can you tell us to which military locations did you

16 drive your commander?

17 A. I didn't drive him to any military locations, because he had

18 another vehicle and that was a Jeep. All I did was drive around the --

19 provide rides around the town.

20 Q. And when you drove him around the town, to which military

21 locations in the town did you take him to?

22 A. At that time, we once went to Marsal Tito barracks, a couple of

23 times to the hospital. And what do I know? Well, that would be it.

24 Around town. I wouldn't know exactly.

25 Q. When you say that you drove him to the Marsal Tito barracks, can

Page 5096

1 you tell us what was there in the Marsal Tito barracks in 1992, 1993, when

2 you were the driver?

3 A. It was empty. It was an empty barracks.

4 Q. Were there any military in the barracks?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Can you answer on which occasion did you take your commander to

7 the Marsal Tito barracks?

8 A. How do I know?

9 Q. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, as a member of the police reserve force, you

10 had a uniform and a weapon.

11 A. Yes, I did. All over again.

12 Q. And when you became a soldier, what did you do with your uniform

13 and your weapon?

14 A. I returned them to the police.

15 Q. So you are telling us that as a soldier, you didn't have a weapon?

16 A. I didn't.

17 Q. Since you told us that you were a soldier and you said that you

18 did not have any weapons, that you had no uniform, then how could you be

19 identified as a soldier?

20 A. We had our cards.

21 Q. When you say you had cards, could you please explain what that

22 means?

23 A. It was a card with one's full name and photograph, later on. In

24 the early days, there was no photograph. Later on, there was a

25 photograph, too.

Page 5097

1 Q. A photograph and the name. And what else did it say?

2 A. The photograph, the first name, last name, and it said "Stari Grad

3 TO."

4 Q. And did later on this TO grow into a military formation and what

5 it came to be called then? What military unit was indicated that card

6 that you belonged to, which brigade?

7 A. The card said "the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, municipality of

8 Stari Grad."

9 Q. Can you tell us, when did you get this card which said "the army

10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina"?

11 A. No. No, I can't remember.

12 Q. Was it in 1992 or 1993?

13 A. 1993, I believe, but I'm not sure.

14 Q. You told us that in 1993, you left the army of BH?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Can you tell us, why did you leave the army, since you were of

17 conscript age?

18 A. Health, for reasons of health.

19 Q. And to leave the BH army for reasons of health, did you have to

20 submit medical documentation so that they would accept this as an excuse,

21 as a justification for your departure from the army as the war was still

22 on?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Which military post did you submit your medical documentation to

25 and ask to be allowed to leave the army?

Page 5098

1 A. There were no military posts at the time. One went to a lower

2 military commission. You submit to it the medical documentation and it

3 releases you.

4 Q. And where was the building where this lower military commission

5 worked?

6 A. Near Marin Dvor.

7 Q. Can you mark its seat on the map, where the lower military

8 commission was.

9 A. You want me to use the marker?

10 Q. Yes, use the marker and write number 3.

11 A. Well, there is a cross here.

12 Q. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, you said that during the conflict you drove an

13 Audi 80. Is it your car?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Can you tell us to whose name has it been registered?

16 A. Mine.

17 Q. That day, on the 5th of February, 1994, you said that you were on

18 the corner of Dzenetica cikma, and can you help me, what was the other

19 street?

20 A. Vrazova Street.

21 Q. Vrazova. Can you mark the place where you were standing on the

22 map?

23 A. I put a point or?

24 Q. Yes. Put a point for us.

25 A. In front of Poljooprema company.

Page 5099

1 Q. And put a point next to the place where you were standing. Write

2 number 4 so we can include it in the transcript.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. Since you just marked on the map the place where you stood with

5 number 4, is it behind the market or next t the market?

6 A. Next to the market, 20 metres.

7 Q. So you are telling us that this place is, to all intents and

8 purposes, level with the market except that it is to a side?

9 A. Well, not quite to the side. I told you 20 metres away from the

10 market. The market ends, then you walk 20 or 30 metres. I don't know how

11 long a building can be. That's it.

12 Q. Can you tell us, when did you get to that place?

13 A. You mean when I started work or --

14 Q. When you started work. When did you arrive to start work?

15 A. I started working around 10.00 in the morning.

16 Q. As a taxi driver, did you work every day?

17 A. Yes, following October 1993.

18 Q. Are you telling us that after October 1993, you worked in Sarajevo

19 every day as a taxi driver?

20 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I am.

21 Q. Are you telling us that there was work every day for you, that you

22 could find work every day?

23 A. No. But I had to be there because there was no work every day.

24 It varied.

25 Q. As a taxi driver, can you tell us, where did you get the fuel in

Page 5100

1 Sarajevo?

2 A. From smugglers.

3 Q. Since you were a taxi driver, did you have one taxi stop where you

4 would go every time?

5 A. I think, yes, perhaps there was another one, too, I think. But I

6 believe that only the cathedral stop worked.

7 Q. Can you tell us, since you were a taxi driver, where in the town

8 were the soldiers of the BH army quartered?

9 A. I can't tell you that. That is not something that I knew.

10 Q. Is it that you cannot tell us because you don't know or because

11 you don't want to tell us that?

12 A. Because I don't know.

13 Q. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, your mother's maiden name is Prazina. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Do you have any knowledge, is Juka Prazina your relation?

17 A. He isn't.

18 Q. Do you have any knowledge about his having his own unit in

19 Sarajevo?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know where the headquarters of his unit was?

22 A. No.

23 Q. During your work as a taxi driver, during that period of time, did

24 you ever drive soldiers of BH army or military persons?

25 A. Now and then, but not to the barracks.

Page 5101

1 Q. When you say "now and then," tell us about a ride, about the time

2 when you drove soldiers. Where did you take them?

3 A. What do I know? He could go to Marin Dvor. He would go to Malta.

4 He could go to Podbistrik whatever.

5 Q. When you said Podbistrik, are you telling us that in that area,

6 Podbistrik, there was a command post?

7 A. No, that is not what I'm telling you.

8 Q. Of the 110th Motorised Brigade? Isn't it true that the 10th

9 Motorised Brigade over there?

10 A. I don't know that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I ask you, you used now

12 approximately 50 per cent more time in your cross-examination as the

13 Prosecution did during its examination-in-chief. Could you give us an

14 idea, although I can understand that you were a bit surprised by the

15 compactness of the examination-in-chief, could you indicate how much time

16 you still need approximately. You know, the rule more or less is that

17 cross-examination should not take more time than the

18 examination-in-chief.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I will do my

20 best to finish by the break. I hope to finish before the break.

21 Q. Mr. Hadzimuratovic, can you tell us, if you have any knowledge,

22 whether prior to this 5th of February, there were any incidents in

23 Sarajevo regarding shelling?

24 A. Regarding shelling? No, that was -- it was a quiet day.

25 Q. You say the 5th of February was a quiet day. Can you tell us what

Page 5102

1 kind of weather was it that day?

2 A. Well, if I remember, because it was a long time ago, but I think

3 it was an overcast day, cloudy with occasional spells of clear weather.

4 Q. Can you explain the sound that you heard, what kind of a sound was

5 it?

6 A. Whistling.

7 Q. And when you heard that, what did you think was about to happen?

8 A. I knew what was about to happen. It was the sound of a shell.

9 Q. Were you in such a situation before to hear a sound of a shell?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if you thought -- you said you thought that it was a shell.

12 Did you know whether it was a shell or a mortar projectile?

13 A. I am not an expert to know whether it was a shell or some other

14 projectile.

15 Q. Since you were a taxi driver, did you know where the positions of

16 the BH army were?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you know where the positions of the army of Republika Srpska

19 were?

20 A. Well, we heard approximately where was what, but nobody knew

21 exactly. They were in Sarajevo all over.

22 Q. When you say we heard approximately, where did you hear that?

23 A. Well, people talked.

24 Q. Were you personally ever near the positions of army of Republika

25 Srpska?

Page 5103

1 A. No.

2 Q. When you heard the hissing, did you hear the sound of the

3 projectile over your head?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know from which direction the sound came?

6 A. From the direction of Mrkovici, from the north.

7 Q. Can you tell us how did you establish that, you personally?

8 A. Well, I suppose I know where north is in my native town. I know

9 the cardinal points.

10 Q. And at that moment, were you standing facing the north?

11 A. Almost.

12 Q. Can you indicate on the map the place from which the mine came --

13 the projectile came. You indicated here the place where it fell. Can you

14 now tell us where it came from.

15 A. Well, the map already shows the direction from which it came.

16 Q. Did you personally establish this direction or was it drawn for

17 you?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Can you tell us, the 22nd of December building, is it next to the

20 market?

21 A. Yes. And it's all glass.

22 Q. Can you tell us, during the conflict in Sarajevo, what was in the

23 22nd of December building?

24 A. Sewing shop, a factory where they made clothes, a factory.

25 Q. Can you tell us what was sewn in that factory? You tell us it was

Page 5104

1 a sewing shop, so what did it make? What kind of clothes?

2 A. Well, before the war, it used to make protective clothing and

3 uniforms for keepers, guards, firemen, and I guess for police and army,

4 too. But I'm not so sure about that. And in the war, what it made in the

5 war, I don't know.

6 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether it worked during the war?

7 A. Well, I could see individuals go in and out. But who or what were

8 they, were they workers or executives or what they were, I don't know

9 because I didn't go there.

10 Q. Since you told us that you took the wounded to the Kosevo Hospital

11 and went back to the market, can you tell us after how long did you go --

12 get back to the market in relation to the time when the incident

13 happened? How long did it pass?

14 A. Well, however long it took me to get to the hospital and back.

15 I'll tell you, just a moment. After the second round I returned. So

16 perhaps it could have been 15, 20 minutes, half an hour, because I was

17 helping to carry the wounded up there.

18 Q. And amongst the wounded soldiers that you took up, were there any

19 soldiers?

20 A. You mean wounded soldiers?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

22 MR. STAMP: I'm not too clear about that question. Amongst the

23 wounded soldiers that you took up --

24 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think the next question of Ms. Pilipovic was

25 whether there were any soldiers. I think she corrected herself in this

Page 5105

1 respect.

2 MR. STAMP: Very well.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm asking the

5 witness whether amongst the wounded soldiers he took to the hospital,

6 there were some soldiers, too.

7 A. I don't know saying that there were any wounded soldiers. They

8 were people in uniforms.

9 Q. So you are telling us that among the wounded whom you took to the

10 hospital, there were also some uniformed individuals. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, but without any weapons.

12 Q. Can you tell us what kind of uniforms were they?

13 A. Camouflage.

14 Q. And when you returned to the market, did you see UNPROFOR

15 representatives there, person who were UNPROFOR representatives?

16 A. No. They had not arrived yet.

17 Q. Were there police members when you got there?

18 A. Yes. When I returned, yes, they were there.

19 Q. Can you tell us what were the policemen who had come to the site

20 doing?

21 A. I think they were there to guard the site.

22 Q. Can you tell us, after how long did UNPROFOR members come, after

23 your arrival? Can you tell us what time was that? Was it one, two hours,

24 if you remember?

25 A. I don't know. I don't know when, and I didn't see them. They did

Page 5106

1 not come whilst I was there, and I left immediately.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, it is now approximately the time of

3 the break.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you still need?

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, another five

7 minutes. I can resume after the break. Let me just ask my colleague

8 regarding a couple of questions.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think if you could perhaps finish as soon as

10 possible, then, please.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, can you tell us, after the 5th, were there any police

14 officers present at Markale?

15 A. I didn't see any, and I did not stay there.

16 Q. Can you tell us, what was the damage caused to the building called

17 22nd of December?

18 A. The windows were broken.

19 Q. How tall was the building called 22nd December? How many storeys

20 did that building have?

21 A. I believe it's a four-storey building.

22 Q. Were there any trucks carrying the wounded?

23 A. There was a truck that I saw, but at the hospital. It was a small

24 truck, a ton and a half.

25 Q. Can you tell us, since on the map you explained to us where

Page 5107

1 Mrkovici is situated, can you tell us if the Mount Grdonja is also

2 located?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us if near the Mount Grdonja there were any BiH

5 positions?

6 A. I do not know.

7 Q. Witness, you do not wish to tell the truth.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we do not have any

9 more questions.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then have a break for half an hour.

11 Could the Prosecution already indicate whether there would be any

12 need to re-examine the witness.

13 MR. STAMP: Just a couple.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So then we'll have the break first.

15 MR. STAMP: Indeed.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until 11.35.

17 --- Recess taken at 11.04 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.37 a.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Before we proceed, Mr. Stamp, Ms. Pilipovic, the last

20 observation you made before the break was not a question but was a

21 comment, and you know that comments at this stage are not allowed.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, you may now proceed in re-examining the

24 witness.

25 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. It will be brief.

Page 5108

1 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

2 Q. You said you saw a truck at the hospital, a small truck.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know if that truck was used to help carry the wounded to

5 the hospital?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was it so used?

8 A. Yes. Yes, they used it.

9 Q. Now, on the 5th of February, 1994, were you wearing any type of

10 uniform, or were you dressed in civilian clothes?

11 A. I was wearing civilian clothes.

12 Q. You said you saw persons in camouflage uniforms. Can you say

13 about how many persons in total you saw in camouflage uniforms at the

14 market?

15 A. There were two to three of them. I brought one to the hospital,

16 and they were not on duty. They were not having any arms with them.

17 MR. STAMP: That is it. May it please Your Honours,

18 Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Stamp.

20 Mr. Hadzimuratovic, I've got a question for you.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that after having been in the reserve

23 police forces for a certain period of time, you were employed as a

24 driver. And as you told us, you were in the military, you were a soldier

25 at that time before you returned to your old job as a taxi driver. Could

Page 5109

1 you tell us, in this period when you were driving for the military, so not

2 for the reserve police any more, what type of car did you drive?

3 A. I was driving my car, Audi, from 1971. The number was 296845. I

4 believe that that was the registration number.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So you have been driving during all these times the

6 same car. Is that true?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And can you tell us whether when you were driving

9 this car for the military, could it be identified in one way or another as

10 a military vehicle, or at least as a vehicle used to transport military

11 people?

12 A. No, it was not identified as a military vehicle at all. It was a

13 white vehicle with some traces of shelling, because of the shells that

14 fell, and it had some traces of shells. And it was such as that it had a

15 military card. It was a document that was issued to me, but it had

16 civilian license plates.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Hadzimuratovic.

18 You've answered the questions of both parties. You've also

19 answered an additional question from the Bench. You'll understand that

20 for this Court, it's very important that we get the information from those

21 who were present at the times when it all happened. We also are aware

22 that it's quite something to come from Sarajevo to The Hague and to

23 testify in this Court. It's a great effort you take, and we would like to

24 thank you very much for coming and assisting us in doing our job by

25 answering the questions of the parties and of the Bench. And of course,

Page 5110

1 apart from thanking you, I'd like to wish you a safe trip home again.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Usher, could you please lead

4 Mr. Hadzimuratovic out of the courtroom.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I think the next witness will need

7 some protective measures, but while this is prepared, I'd like to go

8 through the documents.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3121, a map marked by the witness.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Premarked by the witness during his first --

11 during the statement he gave to the investigators of the Prosecution, and

12 then marked further during his testimony in this courtroom. Yes, it's

13 admitted into evidence.

14 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. STAMP: While we await the next witness and while the

17 protective measures are being prepared, just indicate that there will be a

18 few witnesses coming in future who have premarked maps. These have been

19 served on the Defence, and we propose to tender those maps as well. Our

20 instructions is that the original size maps have been served on the

21 Defence sometime in the past. May I just indicate through the Court if

22 they have any problems we are available during the lunch break and after

23 the adjournment this afternoon to ensure that they have something that is

24 legible and clear.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the Defence knows that if there is any

Page 5111

1 difficulty in the size of the maps, then...

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence was not

3 aware that the following witness had protected measures.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was a decision by this Court, which has

5 been -- let me just have a look. I'll tell you exactly how it is. If

6 we're talking about Witness Sabljica.

7 MR. STAMP: Indeed.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Excuse me, we are still in open Court. I made a

9 mistake. Madam Registrar, could you --

10 MR. STAMP: May I indicate --

11 JUDGE ORIE: No, but perhaps first -- yes, name is no problem.

12 It's just face alteration. I thought I made a mistake, but fortunately I

13 did not.

14 MR. STAMP: I don't know if a distinction is made here in this

15 Court. I think the order was not for protective measures in Court to the

16 extent that he needed to be -- his face needed to be shielded in Court. I

17 think the order was just in respect of a television broadcast.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what my understanding was as well, so

19 that those are watching the pictures that are sent from this courtroom.

20 That would mean that we don't have to put down the curtains and that we

21 could do away with the...

22 Yes, please.

23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Stamp, I do agree with you, it's not

25 necessary in the courtroom. Perhaps for the witness, it's good that he

Page 5112

1 comes in and he knows that he's fully protected, and the first thing

2 we'll do is to pull the curtains up again and explain to him once he is

3 seated and sees on the screen that his face is distorted, that it might

4 give him a comfortable feeling that everything's all right. Although I do

5 agree with you that as far as the measures sought are concerned, it goes

6 for one minute, one metre further than you asked for. If that is all

7 right with the Defence.

8 And then the Defence were not aware of it. Well, an oral motion

9 has been made on the 4th of March, and the decision has been given right

10 away on the 4th of March by this Court. So I'm a bit surprised that you

11 were not aware of it.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm thinking about

13 the oral motion and the result of this oral motion and the decision. I'm

14 thinking about the decision, and I do not believe that I heard it. If I'm

15 making a mistake, I'm sorry, but I will first check.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was done at the same time as the decision

17 was taken in respect of the witness Boskailo. So it's just facial

18 distortion, so it's a very limited measure.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's fine. Your

20 Honour it's fine. Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 Would you then, please, lead the witness into the courtroom.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 5113

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sabljica, protective measures have been asked for

2 you, but only for any video coverage outside this courtroom. So that

3 means your face will not be visible for anyone who is not in this

4 courtroom. That is what the Prosecution has asked for; that is what the

5 Court has granted. If you would just perhaps look on your screen and

6 whether you can see that your face is really not -- perhaps you should

7 move your face a bit, but so that you can see that -- if you could

8 please perhaps for one minute sit down so the witness can see that his

9 face is distorted. You see how it works.

10 Could you then please stand up again. Mr. Usher, if you would

11 give the statement to the witness and at the same time open the curtains

12 again and take away the screens because that's not necessary any more,

13 then Mr. Sabljica -- if you give it already to the witness, and I'll

14 instruct him what to do. And what you could do is at the same time to

15 open all the curtains again.

16 Mr. Sabljica, before you testify in this Court, the Rules of

17 Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration that

18 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And

19 the text of this declaration has already been given to you by the usher.

20 Would you please make that solemn declaration.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will tell

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated again.

24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, you may drop all the curtains and take

Page 5114

1 away the screens. I mean, we have granted the protective measures as they

2 have been sought and has been explained today by the Prosecution. And

3 let's not apply any further measure than sought or granted. It's just for

4 the outside world at a distance.

5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, there's one issue left. There might be

7 some reflection from windows, and is that -- it was my understanding that

8 you'd like to prevent the witness being recognised by just ordinary people

9 watching television. I don't know whether they are watching in such a way

10 that...

11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, there can be no full guarantee if the last

13 curtains are pulled up also.

14 MR. STAMP: In which case --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ORIE: For the Defence, I tried to get rid of, as much as

19 possible, items that would go any further than the order and the

20 protective measures granted. On the other hand, we have to keep in mind

21 that reflection could make less effective what we ordered.

22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Sabljica, at least I hope you have the

24 impression that we're taking quite seriously the protective measures that

25 have been sought. That's why it took us a couple of minutes to find out

Page 5115

1 exactly the balance of what was needed in order to make them effective and

2 what was superfluous.

3 Mr. Stamp, please proceed. You'll first be examined by counsel

4 for the Prosecution, then by counsel for the Defence. And if there are

5 any additional questions by the Judges, they will be put to you.

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

8 giving me the floor once again. We have again the same type of problem

9 which seems to be recurrent with the Prosecution. I'm drawing your

10 attention to this fact now because once again, we will have to conduct the

11 cross-examination in two, that is, both of us. We have written statements

12 that were not signed and which do not bear the ERN number. The origin of

13 the document is the OTP, and once again there is no signature whatsoever

14 on this document. On the other hand, we have a document with the ERN

15 number, but again without the signature. So we don't know what the

16 contents of the statements are, the statements which had to be disclosed

17 to us in due time. We do not appreciate this way of proceedings, and we

18 wanted to draw the attention of the Court to this problem once again.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, did you ask for clarification

20 directly to the Prosecution?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Obviously, Mr. President. Do

22 these documents -- are they coming from the witness or not? Why aren't

23 they signed and why is it the case they did not have any ERN number?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Did you put these questions prior to this Court --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, now I've

Page 5116

1 understood. Mr. President, I discovered this over the weekend as I was

2 working on this evidence. I cannot have everything prepared in advance.

3 I wasn't able to proceed.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps during the next break, you'll get an answer

5 from Mr. Stamp. And if there then remains a problem, the Chamber will be

6 glad to hear it.

7 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

8 MR. STAMP: With the witness, Mr. President?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, with the witness. Yes. I expected if any

10 problem, of course, meanwhile comes up, then we'll hear it, but if you can

11 solve the problem with Mr. Piletta-Zanin during the break, that would of

12 course be preferable. Please proceed.

13 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 WITNESS: MIRZA SABLJICA

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

17 Q. Could you please state your name and occupation.

18 A. My name is Mirza Sabljica. By profession, I'm a mechanical

19 engineer.

20 Q. Where do you live, Mr. Sabljica?

21 A. I live in Sarajevo in Bolnicka Street, number 14.

22 Q. Now, how long have you lived in Sarajevo?

23 A. I was born in Sarajevo, so I have been living there for the past

24 36 years.

25 Q. When the conflict started in Sarajevo in early 1992, did you join

Page 5117

1 any particular group?

2 A. Yes, I did. On the 28th of April, 1992, I joined the Territorial

3 Defence.

4 Q. For which community?

5 A. It belonged to the Centrum municipality, that is, the

6 municipality of Novo Sarajevo. The unit in question belonged to the

7 forces of the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

8 Q. Now, how long did you remain with this unit?

9 A. I remained with this unit until June 1996 -- 1993.

10 Q. In June 1993, did you join any particular organisation?

11 A. Yes, I started working for the Ministry of the Interior of the

12 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13 Q. In what job did you start to work there?

14 A. I was employed as a ballistics expert, also as an expert for

15 mechanical traces.

16 Q. In respect to mechanical engineering, do you have any particular

17 professional training in that field?

18 A. No, except for the university training which lasted four years.

19 Q. Did you get a degree from that university?

20 A. Of course. I obtained my degree on the 17th of October, 1991.

21 Q. And that was in engineering?

22 A. Yes, correct.

23 Q. Now, when you joined the MUP as a ballistic analyst, did you

24 receive any training on the job or otherwise?

25 A. Unfortunately, this was not an educational type of training, a

Page 5118

1 technical training. All I received by way of training was my usual daily

2 work.

3 Q. In other words, you were trained on the job as you worked?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Now, in the course of your training, did you read or consult any

6 documents on ballistics analysis?

7 A. Yes, we used manuals that were accessible in the library of the

8 MUP, mainly from the area of ballistics and some other books which

9 belonged to the library of the former JNA.

10 Q. Now, did you take any examinations in respect of your training as

11 a ballistic analyst?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Now, you said that some of the textbooks or some of the books you

14 used were from the former JNA. Where did you get these books from?

15 A. The books were easily accessible in the MUP.

16 Q. Now, after July 1993, did you do any examinations of shell

17 impacts?

18 A. Yes, I was a member of the team which conducted on-site

19 investigations of daily shelling incidents of the town of Sarajevo.

20 Q. About how frequently did you investigate shelling incidents after

21 July of 1993?

22 A. I think that throughout the period of time while I worked as a

23 ballistics expert for the MUP, I conducted somewhere between 80 and a

24 hundred such investigations.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 5119

1 Now, you said you worked as a team. Did you always work as a team

2 in respect to every investigation or did the team change, having regard to

3 the nature of the impact site?

4 A. That is correct. I was always a member of a team. We always

5 worked in teams, and members of the teams varied depending on the need.

6 Q. Now, the team of ballistic analysts, and that is all I wanted to

7 focus on, when you went to an impact site, what was it your responsibility

8 to try to determine?

9 A. Our main task was to establish the direction from which the

10 projectile came, and the type and calibre of the weapon that was used.

11 Q. And from what observations would you make to establish the type

12 and calibre of weapon used and the direction from which the fire came?

13 A. The incoming direction was established on the basis of the

14 mechanical damage that we found on the site, that is, the shape and type

15 of traces, whereas the calibre and type of weapon were determined on the

16 basis of the fragments of the projectile that were found on the location,

17 as well as on the basis of traces which we found on the point of impact.

18 Q. When you say the calibre of the weapon could be determined from

19 traces that you found at the point of impact, could you explain a little

20 bit more what you mean?

21 A. Yes. The method we used was called the central axis method, which

22 was also used by the members of the international forces, that is,

23 UNPROFOR. I came across a similar method in the ballistics manuals which

24 I had opportunity to study.

25 Q. I'm speaking now specifically about the calibre of the weapon.

Page 5120

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6

7

8

9

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

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25

Page 5121

1 A. The calibre of the weapon was usually determined on the basis of

2 the shell stabiliser which in the majority of cases was found on the

3 location. We also used the form and type of traces and damage that we

4 established at the location to determine that.

5 Q. By "form and type of the traces and damage," do you mean the shape

6 and character of the impact site could assist you in determining the type

7 and calibre of the weapon?

8 A. Yes, it assisted us to establish with precision whether the barrel

9 of the weapon was rifled or not.

10 Q. Did it help to -- help you to determine the calibre of the weapon?

11 A. In most of the cases, yes.

12 Q. Now, do you remember the 5th of February, 1994? Did you take part

13 in an examination of a central crater that day?

14 A. Yes, I do. I was a member of the team that conducted the on-site

15 investigation.

16 Q. And this was at Markale market in the downtown area of Sarajevo?

17 A. Correct, the Markale market in Stari Grad.

18 Q. Were you the only ballistic examiner who took part in the

19 examination for the police?

20 A. No. The late Hamdija Cavcic was also with me.

21 Q. Do you know for how long Hamdija Cavcic had been a ballistic

22 examiner?

23 A. He worked for the Ministry of the Interior before the outbreak of

24 the aggression, and he was one of the teachers at the MUP school in

25 Sarajevo. He had a course in ballistics.

Page 5122

1 Q. And you said that he did this crater examination with you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, about what time did you arrive at the market that day?

4 A. 13.20.

5 Q. Do you know Sead Besic?

6 A. Yes, I do. Mr. Besic worked as a crime technician, and on that

7 day, he was a member of the investigation team.

8 Q. Now, when you arrived at the market, what did you observe in the

9 market itself?

10 A. The market had been secured by the members of the Stari Grad

11 police department, and our task was to approach the site, site of

12 explosion, that is, the location where the central crater was, and to

13 determine the type and nature of the impact, also the direction of the

14 impact. We did not find any wounded on the scene.

15 Q. Now, did you prepare a report in respect of your investigation of

16 the impact site?

17 A. Yes. That was one of my duties. I had to complete the report

18 following each investigation.

19 Q. Did you sign that report?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Did Hamdija Cavcic participate in the preparation of the report

22 itself?

23 A. Of course he did. But I don't think he prepared the report

24 himself. I'm sorry. I don't think that he signed the report.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

Page 5123

1 MR. STAMP: May I, with your leave, show the witness

2 Exhibit P2309.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so, Mr. Stamp.

4 MR. STAMP:

5 Q. The document you have in front of you, Mr. Sabljica, is composed

6 of the report that you signed as well as some drawings and measurements

7 which you prepared?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just to

11 indicate that in the documents that we have just received, and that we

12 hope we will receive some clarification in respect of, the document ends

13 with numbers 593, and it contains a legend which is not fully legible. I

14 would like to able to ask questions about it, but I would also like to be

15 able to read clearly what it states, because very difficult to make out

16 what is written in the document. We just needed this piece of information

17 in order to be sure what is meant. For example, in Point 3, in Item 3,

18 this is one of the examples.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you're referring to the page ending 593,

20 although it might not solve all your problems, but I see that the same

21 page seems to be reproduced under the last three digits 359. And at least

22 it's a bit better.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Quite right, Your Honour. But

24 for example, Item 3 is not fully legible on the document that I just

25 mentioned.

Page 5124

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but perhaps let's see how examination-in-chief

2 develops and...

3 MR. STAMP: May I just indicate to the Court and to my friend that

4 there is a translation of 593 printed on page 594.

5 JUDGE ORIE: But I can imagine that Mr. Piletta-Zanin, who speaks

6 both languages, would like to have confirmed first of all the original

7 text, because that would enable him to see whether the translation has

8 been properly made or not. But perhaps, Mr. Stamp --

9 MR. STAMP: The witness can clarify.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

11 MR. STAMP: Thanks, Mr. President.

12 Q. That is a report which you made in collaboration with Cavcic and

13 which you signed?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Now, while you were at the scene of the market, did one of the

16 police officers present videorecord the marketplace?

17 A. Yes, that was Mr. Zlatan Sadikovic who did this. He was a member

18 of the investigation team.

19 Q. And was the area of impact of the market in general photographed

20 by Mr. Besic?

21 A. Mr. Besic took photographs of the traces with a still camera,

22 whereas Mr. Sadikovic made some video shots.

23 Q. Among the persons present at the investigation which you did, if

24 you could refresh yourself from your record, was Edin Suljic, the

25 operations officer of the CSB Sarajevo?

Page 5125

1 A. Yes, Mr. Edin Suljic was an operative of the Sarajevo Security

2 Services Centre. He was a crime inspector.

3 Q. Now, the last sentence of the report, you said that the

4 "projectile came from the north, northeast direction, 18 degrees

5 plus/minus 5 degrees from the north direction." Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, correct.

7 Q. And did you come to that conclusion by your examination of the

8 mechanical traces on the ground along with Mr. Cavcic?

9 A. Yes, actually that was the only possible method.

10 MR. STAMP: Now, with your leave, Mr. President, may I have the

11 witness look at exhibit, which is a folder of the photographs which went

12 into evidence through the Witness Sead Besic. I think it's Exhibit 2262.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Usher, would you put the photographs

14 on the ELMO.

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, while we are

17 waiting for the distribution of the document by the usher, could the

18 Prosecution tell us the ERN number of the English translation of the

19 legend, which is currently under number A309 and another one --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Which the interpreter didn't get.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What are we talking about.

22 The translation doesn't seem to be together with the documents which have

23 been disclosed by the Prosecution so that everyone could understand, could

24 Mr. Stamp tell us the ERN number of the translation of the legend.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp. Could you...

Page 5126

1 MR. STAMP: The ERN number I have here 0026- --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

3 MR. STAMP: The ERN number is 0087-7594. That is what I have on

4 the document here.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If Mr. Stamp has the document

6 in front of him, could he tell us directly.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We, at least, I don't know whether you have received

8 it, but the last page of the document we received looks like this, and

9 it's the English translation of --

10 MR. STAMP: That is so, Mr. President.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, it's one and the same

12 text. My apologies, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

14 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

15 Yes, before the witness is Exhibit 2262. That is a folder of

16 photographs that were tendered through the Witness Sead Besic.

17 Q. I am going to ask you, Mr. Sabljica, slowly and in your own words,

18 using your report and the photographs, explain to the Court the

19 methodology of the analysis which you made and from which you came to your

20 conclusions.

21 A. Is it allowed to go through the material?

22 Q. Yes. It is, please.

23 A. The first picture that you see here shows a wider angle of the

24 site where the Markale market is situated with respect to the street that

25 you see, the street that you see this part of actually of the street

Page 5127

1 actually is called Mula Mustafe number 69.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

3 A. Actually Mula Mustafe Basesuije.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

5 MR. STAMP:

6 Q. Now, the photographs 1, 2, 3, 4, and had -- 4 [Sic] show the

7 environs of the market, the area where the market is located?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And photograph 5 shows the area inside the market?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And 6 shows you an area in the market as well?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then the picture of the crater. Correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. Could you explain to the Court the methodology of this analysis

16 beginning from photograph 7 and, of course, referring to the report that

17 you have in front of you. May I just begin by asking you, what is the

18 method used in determining the direction of fire known as, the method

19 which you used.

20 A. The method used was the method of the central axis method.

21 Q. Now, the central crater, you said, was approximately 9 centimetres

22 deep. Could you show us that area, the area of the central crater on that

23 photograph, which is photograph 7?

24 A. The point of impact had approximately a depth of 9 centimetres.

25 Q. And there was mechanical damage to the asphalt surface. Could you

Page 5128

1 show us that mechanical damage again in that photograph?

2 A. The mechanical damage caused is seen here thanks to this irregular

3 ellipse, and we could see these fanned out portions that go outwards,

4 out of the crater and show the place where the -- the direction of the

5 projectile.

6 Q. What caused this mechanical damage outside of the crater itself?

7 A. The mechanical damage is usually caused by projectile fragments,

8 because the projectile, when it hits the ground with its central axis,

9 closes the angle that is less than 90 degrees with respect to the surface

10 leaving the traces more visible, and they go outwards from the centre.

11 They can be found scattered around the centre from the direction where the

12 projectile came because the explosion and the fragments of the projectiles

13 coming from the direction are -- points downward.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak closer to the

15 microphone.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

17 MR. STAMP:

18 Q. Mr. Sabljica, could you speak closer to the microphone.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, once again I

21 have the same type of comment. We have a structural problem if you will.

22 This person is called as a witness, but more and more we see that he is

23 testifying as a an expert witness. I must say it is a problem we have to

24 look at closer, because some people have expert knowledge and it is true

25 they can share this knowledge with us, but then again why call them as

Page 5129

1 regular witnesses and not as expert witnesses.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: It is clear that this witness testifies on both what

4 he did at the time of his investigation and to that extent, he's a normal

5 witness. What he saw, what he did. And at the same time, but that can

6 hardly be a surprise to the Defence, testifies about what he has done and

7 what he has seen with some expert knowledge. So it's not quite clear to

8 me what the objection of the Defence is. Is it that you'd like him to

9 have a report made prior to appearing so that the Defence could have

10 accepted or not accepted the report? This Chamber thinks that would not

11 be the proper way, because the witness also comes and testifies about what

12 he has done. He is not just an expert. I would say he's a witness with

13 some expert knowledge which is woven in inevitably in his testimony, and

14 this will have been noticed by the Defence before.

15 So we do not exactly understand what the Defence would have

16 expected and what they would have wanted the Prosecution to do apart from

17 what it has done, that is, calling this witness and to question him on the

18 document presented to the witness now, that is, his report of his

19 investigation.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. What I

21 meant to say is the following: I am under the impression that we are

22 trying to establish by way of a witness who is called as a regular

23 witness, we are trying to establish data which should be given or

24 established by expert witnesses, so the Defence prepared itself in

25 accordance with facts and not in accordance with the examination of a

Page 5130

1 witness expert. That is all I meant to say.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's -- well, I do understand that's what

3 you expected, and it turns out to be a bit different now. And if this

4 would cause you an impossibility in cross-examining the witness, please

5 explain us then at the moment when it comes to that why you couldn't --

6 apart from, of course, the Defence is fully entitled to call whatever

7 experts they would need to give the same or different explanation on the

8 basis of their expertise on what this witness has testified.

9 Please proceed, Mr. -- yes, Mr. Stamp.

10 MR. STAMP: May I just add that the Defence would have been aware

11 as to what this witness has being called to testify to, both his factual

12 observations as well as his analyses as a police officer and the

13 conclusions he made based on his expertise as a police officer in the

14 normal course of his duties. They would know that from the 65 ter

15 summaries, and they would know that from a submission I made to the Court

16 about two weeks ago. So I don't know if -- well, we need not get into any

17 arguments about that. But the Defence has been aware for some time now,

18 from last year, what this witness would be called to testify to.

19 Thank you, may I proceed, Mr. President?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

21 MR. STAMP:

22 Q. Where were we? You were saying that there is an oval shape -- you

23 said an ellipse, I think -- on the ground where the shell impacted?

24 A. Yes, the central crater is surrounded by a damaged asphalt that

25 has the shape of an ellipse, irregular ellipse. And when the projected

Page 5131

1 shrapnel fragments fall when the shrapnel explode, then the shrapnel and

2 the fragments are closer -- that are closer to the surface are shorter on

3 that side than on the side from which the projectile came. Here

4 on this picture we can see the method of the central axis. It shows us

5 the way to establish the direction.

6 Q. I think the witness now, just for the record, refers to picture

7 number 8. Photograph number 8.

8 Before we get to the methodology, you're explaining that the

9 damaged asphalt will be shorter on the side going towards the direction

10 from where the shell came. Is that correct? I was not clear about that

11 aspect of what you said.

12 A. No, it is longer on the side from which the shell came and shorter

13 on the opposite side. Because when it falls, the shrapnel is -- damages

14 more the arrival side. And on the opposite side, the damage caused by the

15 shrapnel is [indiscernible] And therefore you find less traces on the

16 surface. Is it clearer now?

17 Q. It is. But would you be able to show us on the photograph number

18 7 what you mean by it being longer, the damage being longer on the side

19 from which the shell came and what you mean by it being shorter.

20 A. Now, if we look from the central explosion, from the crater

21 centre, the damage which radiates from, is star-shaped, it spreads over a

22 longer area in the direction from which the shell came than on the other

23 side. Because on this side, the effect of the explosion was upwards. And

24 normally, on that side, you will find more casualties than on the side

25 from which the projectile had come, at least that is what we saw during

Page 5132

1 the war that we had.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, could you turn to photograph number 8. In the

3 method of analysis you used -- you placed some sticks in the area of the

4 central crater. Could you explain what the purpose of these sticks is

5 for?

6 A. We usually use chalk to mark this first, to mark traces. But in

7 this particular case, Mr. Besic had cleared the site in order to make the

8 most precise analysis as possible. So the surface was wet. And the chalk

9 was simply not visible enough. You can see here that we tried to use

10 chalk to draw on the surface. And we thus tried to mend and make do, that

11 is, use whatever we could find there. And this is just a broom handle and

12 a plastic stick that we found near the stalls. And in order to show

13 the -- to demonstrate the method whereby we determine the direction from

14 which an artillery projectile has come.

15 Q. Now, the sticks are placed in a particular formation, in the

16 formation of a T or a cross. Why are they placed like that?

17 A. As a matter of fact, these sticks connect the peripheral

18 mechanical damage to the surface, that is, the remotest points of damage

19 from the direction from which the projectile came. These are the

20 longitudal sticks. And this one here I think is again a metal tape and

21 shows where these directions cross in the centre of the explosion, and at

22 the same time indicates the direction from which the projectile came.

23 Q. There is one stick going to the centre of the explosion, to the

24 upper left of the photograph.

25 A. [Indicates].

Page 5133

1 Q. And there's another to the right.

2 A. [Indicates].

3 Q. Those sticks are placed marking what?

4 A. The end points of mechanical damage done to the asphalt surface

5 towards the centre of the explosion, which fans out into the direction --

6 from which the shell came. Or to try to make it clearer: It is the angle

7 with the central axis is this one here.

8 Q. Well, you just pointed and you said "this one here." Just for the

9 record, the angle with the central axis is which stick, is represented by

10 which stick?

11 A. The central axis is this, this brightest tape, the brightest

12 stick.

13 MR. STAMP: For the record, Mr. President, Your Honours, he's

14 referring to the stick that goes from the bottom of the photograph to the

15 centre of the crater.

16 Q. Now, the placement of the stick, can you say what direction they

17 indicate the shell came from?

18 A. From the direction which this stick points, and with the help of a

19 map of the city and the compass, a deviation from the north was

20 determined, and it was 18 degrees plus/minus 5 from the north, which means

21 north northeast.

22 Q. There's one thing I think perhaps you could clarify a little bit

23 better for the Court.

24 MR. STAMP: May I, Mr. President, with your leave ask the witness

25 to draw an illustration for the Court.

Page 5134

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course you may do so. Of course not on the

2 picture because it has been admitted in evidence already.

3 MR. STAMP: Just on a blank piece of paper.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. STAMP:

6 Q. What I'd like you to do is to --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher. Could you please give the piece of

8 paper to the witness.

9 MR. STAMP:

10 Q. -- is to use a diagram to show the Court why it is that the --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could it perhaps be done the ELMO, Mr. Stamp, so that

12 we are better able to follow what the witness does.

13 MR. STAMP:

14 Q. Witness, what I would like you to illustrate to the Court is the

15 explanation as to why it is that the damage or mechanical damages done by

16 the shell on the ground is greater and longer in the direction from which

17 the shell came. As you prepare the illustration, please explain what you

18 are doing.

19 A. I'm now drawing the surface hit by a projectile. Now, let us

20 assume that the project is coming from this direction. And this is the

21 projectile. And when it impacts, this is the place of the central crater,

22 and then it bursts. The projectile bursts. In that case, all the

23 fragments, that is, all the shrapnel, parts of the projectile which at the

24 moment of explosion damage the surface in the direction from which the

25 projectile came will extend, will spread over a larger distance in this

Page 5135

1 direction than in the opposite because from this point of impact on this

2 side the projectile, the explosion, will act upward. That is a projectile

3 which is fired from a nonrifled barrel. Here you get a central crater.

4 Q. Stop just a moment. For intents and purposes, we will just

5 discuss mortar shells. Do you understand?

6 A. Of course, of course.

7 Q. May I take you back to the first drawing you made.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I ask you another thing. I promised the

9 Defence that they would have three minutes to bring something to the

10 attention of the Chamber, and -- or is this the --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can postpone that for

12 later, for the end of the day if it's more agreeable for Mr. Stamp.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And there's another issue we would like to be

14 informed about, Witness Q. But that has to be done in private session.

15 So you would please find a suitable moment somewhere in the next five

16 minutes so that we still have two minutes in private session left for your

17 information about Witness Q.

18 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. Just a couple

19 more questions and then we could...

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

21 MR. STAMP:

22 Q. On that line ending with an arrow that you have drawn, that is the

23 top diagram, that line is the axis of the approach of a shell. That is

24 what it depicts?

25 A. Yes, and that is also the shell axis, the projectile axis which

Page 5136

1 makes with the surface an angle less than 90 degrees.

2 Q. And when it impacts and explodes, you see fragments in the

3 direction from which the shell is coming from, would be scattered mostly

4 downwards?

5 A. Of course.

6 Q. And that is the reason why the -- that area of impact site is

7 longer, that is, the area from which the direction came. Or may I put it

8 this way, that is the reason why the damage to the impact site is greater

9 and longer

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And you also said that the fragments on the other side of the

12 shell as it explodes would go up and outward, and those fragments would be

13 likely to cause a lot of casualties. Is that what you said?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And lastly in respect to this diagram, and there would be much

16 shorter damage on the surface on that side because most of the fragments

17 are going upwards and outwards?

18 A. That's right. That is what the report says.

19 MR. STAMP: Thank you. Perhaps we could return to the other

20 matters of business.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. Thank you.

22 First of all, let me just ask the Registrar whether the witness

23 could be led out of the courtroom without the protective measures, that's

24 face distortion, being less effective.

25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 5137

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sabljica, we'll resume this afternoon at 2.30.

2 So you'll be led out of the courtroom now by the usher, but the

3 examination will continue this afternoon.

4 Mr. Usher, would you please lead Mr. Sabljica out of the

5 courtroom.

6 We'll then turn into private session.

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6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are now in open session again. We'll adjourn

8 until 2.30.

9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.08 p.m.

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Page 5142

1 --- On resuming at 2.37 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I think it's up to you to continue the

3 cross-examination.

4 MR. STAMP: Indeed it is.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

6 I said cross-examination; of course, I meant examination-in-chief.

7 I apologise.

8 MR. STAMP:

9 Q. Now, you had drawn for us an illustration of the impact markings

10 one would see from a side view, and you were about to draw what one would

11 see from a top view.

12 Could you proceed to do so and explain as you proceed.

13 A. Yes. The small circle that I'm drawing right now represents the

14 centre of the explosion. It is the central crater around which you get

15 damage which is here in the shape of an irregular ellipse, and that's

16 usually the case. They are spread out on the asphalt in the shape of a

17 star. They are spread out on the greater distance from the direction from

18 which the projectile was fired.

19 Q. I take you mean by that they are spread out longer and to a

20 greater degree in the direction from which the missile came?

21 A. Yes, I've already explained this.

22 Q. Now, within the larger oval that you have there, there is a

23 smaller circle.

24 A. Yes. It's a smaller ellipse. It is formed around the centre, the

25 impact centre, and the traces are more visible there. And then we see the

Page 5143

1 rest of these fragments that are scattered in a shape star way, and in

2 our case we're talking about an asphalt surface.

3 Q. Yes. Perhaps you could in the bottom right corner of that

4 illustration, could you just put your initials, please.

5 A. Is this okay?

6 Q. That's fine. Thank you.

7 Now, you said in your report that the direction from which the

8 projectile came was established by delineating the boundary of the

9 mechanical damage to the asphalt surface which found out in the north,

10 northeast direction, and by drawing a perpendicular line to those

11 boundaries and into the centre, could you explain that to us using

12 photographs 8 and 9.

13 A. Photograph number 8 on which I explained the principal of the

14 central axis shows and delineates the boundaries of the centre of

15 explosion. So you have the points that are linked together from the

16 traces that were at a greater distance that go on to the centre of the

17 crater, and then it is important, like in this case, to draw perpendicular

18 line to those boundaries and you can get, therefore, the direction from

19 which the projectile was fired. And in our case, it's this line here.

20 That's what's happening on picture number 8.

21 On picture number 9 --

22 Q. [Previous translation continues]... What you referred to as "this

23 line here" which indicates the direction from which the projectile came,

24 for the record, you are pointing to the line from the bottom of the

25 photograph to the middle, to the crater in the middle of the photograph.

Page 5144

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, could you proceed with your explanation to photograph 9.

3 A. On photograph number 9, we can see the same picture. Towards the

4 centre of the crater, there is a map of the city. The north is shown with

5 a compass, and of course we took care of the metal pieces that were around

6 this compass in order not to effect it. And thanks to this orientation,

7 we were able to distinguish the degree going from north-northeast,

8 therefore establish the degree from which the projectile had arrived or it

9 was fired.

10 Q. Have a look at photograph 10. In that photograph, there's a map

11 of Sarajevo with a compass on it.

12 A. Yes. The arrow here shows the area on the map of the city from

13 which the projectile was fired or could have been fired. And the

14 direction, this 18-degree direction with a plus/minus 5 tolerance added to

15 the angle as a difference value going towards east. The magnet pointer

16 shows the direction of north-northeast, and the magnet is placed at the

17 spot where the Markale market is situated on the map.

18 Q. I have heard that you said the magnet is placed at the spot where

19 the Markale market is situated on the map. By that, do you mean the

20 compass there is situated where Markale market is on the map?

21 A. I said the compass. Maybe I made a mistake. I said the magnetic

22 needle, the magnetic needle is showing the direction of north northeast,

23 and it corresponds to the real geographical north. Maybe there's a few

24 degrees difference.

25 Q. May I just, the compass itself on the map is oriented towards

Page 5145

1 which direction?

2 A. Towards the north. This white line here shows north. You see it

3 shows north here, the direction north.

4 Q. And that direction north is that geographic north or magnetic

5 north?

6 A. In this case here, it is the magnetic north.

7 Q. So the compass is oriented towards the magnetic north.

8 Now --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- you pointed to a white line which is on the map.

11 A. Yes. This white arrow, this line in a shape of an arrow, is

12 showing the general area from which the projectile was fired. And it

13 corresponds to the direction, the axis, north-northeast, meaning the

14 direction which shows actually 18 degrees from the north with a plus/minus

15 5 tolerance degree difference added.

16 Q. And that white arrow on the map points in the same direction as

17 the stick at the top of the map?

18 A. Yes, it does correspond with the stick with the difference that

19 the point of the arrow shows the area from which the projectile was

20 fired.

21 Q. And that area is the area on the map?

22 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

23 Q. You further said that the -- before I proceed --

24 MR. STAMP: May I just inquire of the Court, on the copies of the

25 exhibits, I don't know if you have those copies with you.

Page 5146

1 JUDGE ORIE: The Registrar offered us the copies of the

2 photographs. We're looking at this moment at our screens. Whenever we

3 need them, we'll use them. If it comes to more detailed observation of

4 what's on the photographs, we could use them.

5 Please proceed.

6 MR. STAMP:

7 Q. The -- you were able to determine the type of projectile?

8 A. Yes. It was very simple because at the centre of the crater, we

9 found the stabiliser of an artillery projectile.

10 Q. What type of projectile was it?

11 A. It was an artillery projectile. The calibre was 120-millimetre,

12 mortar shell of 120 millimetre.

13 Q. Have a look at page 11. Is that a photograph of the stabiliser

14 fin in the ground?

15 A. Yes. We can see here the stabiliser, the fins as well, and we can

16 see that it's in the ground at the centre of it.

17 Q. You also found, if you have a look at your report that you

18 completed with Mr. Cavcic, will you, please. In the next-to-last

19 sentence, you also have established that the 120-millimetre mortar shell

20 was activated at the moment of its contact with the asphalt surface.

21 Could you just explain briefly how one would arrive at that conclusion.

22 A. On the base of the depth of the crater and the damage caused as

23 well as on the basis of the depth in which the tail of the projectile was

24 embedded, we were very easily able to establish that it was a ground-level

25 explosion.

Page 5147

1 Q. And this might be repetitive, but for the sake of clarity, that

2 was your function, to determine the type of projectile and the direction

3 from which it came. Is that correct?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. Attached to the document in front of you is a diagram with a

6 legend.

7 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Your Honours, Mr. President, could

8 that diagram please be placed on the ELMO.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 Please, Mr. Usher, could you assist Mr. Stamp and the witness.

11 MR. STAMP:

12 Q. Do you have the legend as well, may I ask, Mr. Sabljica?

13 A. No, I don't have it. I don't see it. The legend is on another

14 page, I believe.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think the legend is on the previous page.

16 MR. STAMP:

17 Q. Now, is that a diagram of the immediate vicinity of the impact

18 site?

19 A. Yes, it is a diagram of the site, the impact site, where the

20 mortar shell exploded. And we usually make this type of sketch after

21 examination of the area.

22 Q. Now, did you take the measurements for this drawing and do the

23 drawing yourself?

24 A. The measurements were taken by myself with the help of a forensic

25 expert, my colleague, Mr. Cavcic and myself. We drew this sketch

Page 5148

1 together.

2 Q. Could you point on this sketch where the centre of the explosion

3 is depicted?

4 A. It is indicated by the letters "CE" right here.

5 Q. And there are two lines pointing away from it. One line pointing

6 away and one line pointing toward. Could you explain what those two lines

7 are, first starting with the one pointing towards it. That's the longer

8 of the two lines.

9 A. The longer line shows the direction from which the projectile was

10 fired. It flew right on to the centre of the explosion. And the shorter

11 line shows the magnetic north, as I explained earlier. The angle between

12 the two is 18 degrees.

13 Q. Now, on the diagram here, does it show the full area of the

14 market?

15 A. No. Just its northeastern part, if you look from the direction

16 of the street Marsal Tito situated on the eastern side.

17 Q. Now, just to the left of the impact site I have the figures

18 "1.000" marked. Could you explain what that means, please.

19 A. Those are the distances in millimetres, because the centre of the

20 explosion is usually set or fixed to some buildings that still exist in

21 the city. And that distance, which is expressed here in metres, expresses

22 the distance between the footpath and the centre of the impact.

23 Q. In other words, there's a distance of 1 metre from the centre of

24 the explosion to the foot mark going to the north of the market?

25 A. Not of the market, but up to the footpath, which is close to the

Page 5149

1 market.

2 Q. Sorry. That was my misunderstanding.

3 A distance of 1 metre to the footpath. Now, how wide is that

4 footpath?

5 A. 760 millimetres, 7.6 centimetres, as it is indicated on the

6 diagram.

7 Q. And beyond that footpath going north or towards the top of the

8 map, what is there?

9 A. There is a shop belonging to the UPI company, number 101, I think.

10 Q. Is that shop or structure where that shop is marked number "1"?

11 A. It is marked with number 1 and 2, because of the distance between

12 the height of these two buildings, although they represent a whole.

13 Q. There is, going beyond the footpath, an area in which you have

14 written the figures "2400." What is that area?

15 A. This represents an area which at the time was empty. It indicates

16 the distance between the north boundary, the footpath, and the building

17 where the shop was. Today, the area looks different.

18 Q. So just to put all these distances together, from the centre of

19 the explosion to the footpath, there was a space of 1 metre.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The footpath was .76 metres. And from the footpath to the

22 building, which was another border of the market, it was 2.4 metres?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And could you help us mathematically; what is the distance from

25 the footpath to the edge of the market going north -- I beg your pardon.

Page 5150

1 From the centre of the explosion to the edge of the market going north.

2 That is --

3 A. From the centre of explosion to the edge of the market, that is,

4 to the shop, there is 4 metres and 360 millimetres, thereabouts.

5 Q. Now, the building to the north of the explosion which you have

6 marked --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, the Chamber has some difficulties in

8 following an addition which as far as we can see is 100 centimetres, 76

9 centimetres, and 240 -- yes, centimetres. We come to 41 instead of 436.

10 So the mathematics is a bit of a puzzle. It should be the same

11 everywhere in the world. Could you please verify together with the

12 witness whether his addition is mathematically a correct one.

13 MR. STAMP:

14 Q. Let's start with centimetres. In centimetres did you give us the

15 sum of the distance from the centre of the crater to the northern boundary

16 of the market where the shop begins.

17 A. I'll do my best. 416 centimetres.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We're all quite happy with this outcome, I think.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. STAMP:

21 Q. That is 4.16 metres?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I think it is wrong. It's 4 metres and 160

24 centimetres, because 1.000 millimetres are 1 metre. It's very simple.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think you're right, Your

Page 5151

1 Honour. Try again.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's 4 metres and 160 millimetres. And that

3 makes 4 metres and 16 centimetres.

4 MR. STAMP: Indeed, indeed.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think there is finally no disagreement.

6 MR. STAMP: I think we are of one mind.

7 JUDGE ORIE: In the same place. Yes.

8 MR. STAMP:

9 Q. Now, you demarkated the building over or through which the lines

10 pass as line 2. How high was that building?

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm sorry, Mr. Stamp, before going to another

12 issue, I think that I would like to have a clarification. According to

13 this diagram and the explanation, number 3, number 3 indicates the stalls,

14 not the footpath, according to the legend. And I agree with

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the translation says the stalls, but it is not very

16 clear in the original.

17 MR. STAMP:

18 Q. In the letter which you wrote --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

20 MR. STAMP: May I attempt to clarify that.

21 Q. In the legend that you wrote, can you make out number 3 in that

22 legend.

23 A. It's a very poor copy, but let me try. I think His Honour is

24 right. It indicates market stall, number 3. But it's a really very bad

25 copy. It is hardly legible.

Page 5152

1 MR. STAMP: May I proceed, Mr. President. In the meantime, we'll

2 make all efforts to see if there's a better copy here, although I think

3 this is the best that we are going to come up with.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. I mean, if we have no better

5 copy at this very moment, then we'll have to consider what is, of course,

6 the --

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: It is very simple. If you see, there is a

8 small diagram at the bottom of the page which shows the stall. And it has

9 the letter "A." I think that the A and the arrow show the stalls.

10 MR. STAMP: Yes. I'm very grateful for that bit of

11 enlightenment. But could I just ask the witness if that is correct.

12 Q. At the bottom of the diagram, there is a structure there. What is

13 that?

14 A. A market stall with its width an height indicated on the

15 diagram.

16 Q. And where this is this number 3 on the diagram, there is an arrow

17 pointing towards the structure with A above it. Does the 3 represent the

18 market stall?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour, for that.

21 Q. Now, in the area marked "2," are you in a position to say how high

22 that building was?

23 A. I would have to look at the legend, with your permission.

24 The height of the building is 3 metres and 650 millimetres.

25 Q. To the right of the diagram, there is a structure marked "5."

Page 5153

1 Could you look at the legend and tell us which structure this is.

2 A. It is the building known as the 22nd December building. As for

3 the height, I cannot see clearly, and I don't want to state anything

4 specific. I don't see the exact number. I don't know whether it's 15 or

5 18. It's a very bad copy.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a whole

8 range of questions which I intend to ask later on of the witness

9 concerning the height of the building which are technical in nature, and I

10 think that it is necessary for us to be provided by the Defence with

11 legible documents, because we cannot rely on documents which are not fully

12 legible.

13 MR. STAMP: We do make our best effort to provide the Defence with

14 legible documents. We can only give them the documents as legibly as we

15 have them.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that. And if -- although being

17 the best, they are not legible, we might have a problem.

18 MR. STAMP: Indeed. Indeed.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's first see what is the best legible copy

20 that will turn up during the next coming hours.

21 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

23 MR. STAMP:

24 Q. From the diagram that you have drawn, exactly 15 degrees, and I'm

25 asking you to forget about the tolerance of minus or plus 5 degrees, but

Page 5154

1 exactly 15 degrees from magnetic north is drawn along the longer of the

2 two lines?

3 MR. STAMP: May I rephrase. May I rephrase that question.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

5 MR. STAMP:

6 Q. Having regard to this diagram, precisely 18 degrees from magnetic

7 north is the line depicted on this diagram, which is the longer of the two

8 going to the centre of the crater.

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. STAMP: Could, with your leave, Mr. President, the witness be

11 shown the map of Sarajevo, which is Exhibit 3644. My understanding is

12 that we have been on occasion using a blank map.

13 JUDGE ORIE: What we do, as a matter of fact, the big black and

14 white map is that one has been admitted in evidence totally unmarked.

15 MR. STAMP: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to use that just for orientation that's

17 fine. If you want to have any markings made on the map, you'll have to

18 provide a new virgin map. And with the markings on it, it will get the

19 same exhibit number but with the initials of the witness added to it.

20 That's the procedure we follow. So if you want to have any markings on

21 the map, you should provide a new virgin map.

22 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I think we will

23 provide a new map for the witness.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'll do that at a later stage, I do

25 understand?

Page 5155

1 MR. STAMP: I'll do that at a later stage. If I had intended to

2 use the ones available, but if I am allowed to provide a new map, then

3 perhaps I could use one of a slightly larger scale which will show

4 certain --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a larger scale is fine, and even larger map

6 would be -- it's already a big one. If you have a larger scale, perhaps

7 only a portion of the map -- I leave it up to you.

8 MR. STAMP: Indeed.

9 JUDGE ORIE: But whenever markings are necessary, you have to come

10 up with a virgin map to start with.

11 MR. STAMP: Very good, Mr. President.

12 Q. May I take you, Mr. Sabljica, to the day before the 5th of

13 February, 1994. Now, on that day, did you investigate another shelling

14 incident?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was this in the Dobrinja area?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is a directly leading

20 question, Your Honour. I don't know whether it may be asked. I think the

21 witness should have been asked where it was instead of pointing to it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you are disputing the fact

23 where it was, of course then you are perfectly right. I think the

24 practice in this courtroom is that if the witness is led to an event

25 which, as such, or a place which is as such not in dispute, then we

Page 5156

1 usually -- usually no objections are made. That's what the practice has

2 been until now. But if you think that this is a matter which is in

3 dispute, then of course Mr. Stamp will rephrase his question.

4 MR. STAMP: May it please you, Mr. President. I did ask the

5 question that way because when previous witnesses have been asked

6 questions, the issue as to whether the incident was in Dobrinja or not has

7 never been raised.

8 JUDGE ORIE: That's what my understanding also was, but if there's

9 any specific reason why. On the other hand, I'd rather not discuss what

10 is in dispute or not in the presence of the witness. So perhaps

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin later will give an explanation. At this moment, if you

12 will please rephrase your question.

13 MR. STAMP: If it please, Your Honour.

14 Q. You investigated another shelling incident on the 4th of

15 February. Where did this investigation take place?

16 A. In took place in Dobrinja. The street in question where I think

17 Oslobodilaca Sarajevo Street, and Mehajla Pupina Street, at the square

18 enclosed by these two streets.

19 Q. Did you go there with a team of investigators?

20 A. Of course, as always, together with the investigating magistrate,

21 who was the head of the team.

22 Q. And did you make a record of your investigations and your

23 findings?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you sign this record?

Page 5157

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, could the witness be

3 shown the documents marked P2247.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please distribute --

5 THE REGISTRAR: Would you like the Exhibit 2247 or the documents

6 marked 2247A? There is a pre-existing exhibit numbered P2247.

7 MR. STAMP: I am, in fact, very grateful. It should be 2247A.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MR. STAMP:

11 Q. Do you see your report there which you have signed?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And further on, do you see a diagram with a legend?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Who prepared the diagram with the legend?

16 A. Crime technicians.

17 Q. Now, how many criminal ballisticians went on the scene of that

18 investigation?

19 A. Two. The late Mr. Medjedovic and myself.

20 Q. Who is Mr. Medjedovic, or was Mr. Medjedovic?

21 A. Mr. Zlatko Medjedovic was, for a number of years, an employee of

22 the MUP. He was an expert in ballistics, and he was also a teacher at the

23 MUP school in Sarajevo. He was a very experienced inspector and

24 ballistician.

25 Q. The report which you signed, did you prepare -- well, who prepared

Page 5158

1 the report, if I may ask it that way?

2 A. Mr. Medjedovic and I, we worked on it together.

3 Q. Now, if you quickly have a look at the report which you signed,

4 would you agree with me that it refers to an analysis or analyses of two

5 impact sites?

6 A. Yes, I agree.

7 Q. Could you have a look at the diagram which was drawn by the

8 criminal technician. Can you say how many impact sites that diagram

9 refers to.

10 A. The diagram shows two such sites. I'm sorry, three sites.

11 Q. Now, you said that the investigation was done in a hollow area or

12 a park behind Oslobodilaca Sarajevo Street and Mehajla Pupina Street. Is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. On the diagram which was drawn by the criminal technicians, could

16 you point to -- or tell us by number which are the two impact sites in

17 that hollow?

18 A. The one marked "1," and the other one marked "2."

19 Q. Going to the right of that diagram, there is a building.

20 A. That's right. Yes, this one here. You mean this one, do you?

21 Q. Yes. Going to the right. That is the correct building. And

22 there is a tunnel going under that building?

23 A. You mean this passage, yes.

24 Q. A passage is a better expression. And going further to your

25 right, according to the diagram, there is Oslobodilaca?

Page 5159

1 A. Yes, that's what it says.

2 Q. Grada.

3 A. Grada, yes.

4 Q. And further to the right, there is a number "3."

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. What does that number "3" depict, or what does it mark?

7 A. Number 3 marks the place where the third shell fell which we did

8 not analyse because there were no casualties, no wounded or injured. And

9 according to the crime technician and magistrate who went to that

10 particular site, it fell inside the building. And I believe it was a

11 religious facility or something. I'm not sure.

12 Q. Can you recall where on that building the shell fell?

13 A. No, I can't. Because I did not go near that building.

14 Q. Now, in respect to the two impact sites which you investigated in

15 the hollow area, you wrote this report.

16 A. That's right.

17 MR. STAMP: Could the witness, with your leave, Mr. President, be

18 shown Exhibit P226 -- I beg your pardon -- P2247, which is already in

19 evidence. It's a folder of photographs in respect of that incident.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please, Mr. Usher, put it on the

21 ELMO.

22 Did you have any particular photo in mind or just the bundle?

23 MR. STAMP: I will proceed through them.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MR. STAMP:

Page 5160

1 Q. Could you have a look at photograph number 9, or numbers 9, 10,

2 and 11. And just tell me, are those photographs of one of the impact

3 sites that you investigated?

4 A. That's right, sir. Yes. And this is the site, the place, the

5 spot, which was marked "2" on the sketch.

6 Q. You will notice in photograph 10 there is a tail-fin exposed.

7 A. Yes, the stabiliser of a mortar shell was found here lodged in the

8 centre of the explosion.

9 Q. And the type of examination you did, was its methodology the same

10 or different from the type of examination you did at the Markale market

11 explosion you did the next day?

12 A. It was invariably the same.

13 Q. On photograph 11, there is a map with a compass on it. In which

14 direction is the compass oriented?

15 A. Well, as I have already said, compass is always turned so as to

16 point to the north, so as to establish which side of the map is north.

17 And this white arrow on the map is pointing the direction from which the

18 shell was fired, and it also tallies with the marks, with the traces, we

19 found on the site. We applied the same method as in Markale, as I have

20 already said.

21 Q. In your report, you said that it can be established that it was a

22 120-millimetre mortar shell which came from east-northeast where Lukavica,

23 that is Ergo investment complex of buildings is located.

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Is that the direction from which this arrow points?

Page 5161

1 A. It is.

2 Q. Now, I wish to make this very clear for the Court. You say it is

3 from the direction of the Ergo investment building at Lukavica. You say

4 "the direction of." Do you say and can you say from this analysis where

5 exactly that line the shell came from?

6 A. No, that is impossible. No.

7 Q. In other words, you can only tell the direction?

8 A. That's right. Not at all.

9 Q. How were you able to tell the type and calibre of the shell?

10 A. I repeat: We applied the same analysis as in Markale, and we

11 encountered no major difficulties because we found those traces and also

12 found the stabiliser of the shell.

13 Q. In the same batch of documents, could you have a look at

14 photographs 3, 4, and 5.

15 I take it that this would be the photograph marked 1 on the

16 diagram. You have already said the other one was marked 2, in the

17 hollow.

18 A. Yes, that is correct. That is the place marked with "1."

19 Q. And can you see on the photograph that it is at the edge of an

20 asphalted area or close to the edge of an asphalted area? That is,

21 photograph 3.

22 A. Yes. I can see on the very edge of this asphalted part. And on

23 photograph 3 -- sorry, yes.

24 Q. And it is also shown on the diagram at the edge of a square area.

25 A. That's right, marked with "1" on the sketch.

Page 5162

1 Q. May I just take you through one or two things in respect of your

2 findings. Could you have a look at photograph number 4. From that

3 photograph, can you see that there is a stabiliser fin in the crater?

4 A. Yes. One can clearly see the stabiliser which is embedded right

5 in the centre of the crater.

6 Q. In your report, this is the area that you referred to as an

7 "asphalt area in front of the public garage"?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. And that is the photographs at page 3, 4, and 5.

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Now, in respect to your examination and analysis of this crater,

12 and I ask you again, did you use the same methodology that you used in

13 examining the other crater and the crater at Markale the next day?

14 A. Yes, we always used the same methodology.

15 Q. At page 5, there is the usual map with a compass, I take it, and

16 I'll ask you again, this compass is oriented towards magnetic north?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And there's a white arrow above that compass on the photograph.

19 Could you point to it, please.

20 A. This is the arrow.

21 Q. And that arrow indicates what?

22 A. The arrow indicates the direction from which the projectile came

23 when it hit the ground.

24 Q. And your findings were that this shell was a 120-millimetre mortar

25 shell?

Page 5163

1 A. Yes, on the basis of the same indices as in the previously

2 explained case.

3 Q. And the same indicators were the size and form of the crater and

4 the nature of the stabiliser fin that you found?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You also found that the shell came from the east.

7 A. Yes, as the arrow indicates.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. Not at all.

10 Q. In respect to the investigations of these incidents, who is

11 responsible for checking and counting casualties?

12 A. The --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object to the manner the

15 question was asked, because you are talking about "these incidents,

16 casualties," and I'm not aware of any casualties in the case of one of the

17 shellings under consideration, that is, in Dobrinja.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, would you like to respond?

19 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, the question was framed in a general

20 way in respect to investigation of these incidents, who is responsible.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. STAMP: It is not directed to any particular impact, but in

23 a particular investigation, investigations of shellings generally, who is

24 responsible.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 5164

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If the question is general, in

2 that case, it is something completely different.

3 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is my recollection well that the witness

5 testified that the third impact was not investigated because there were no

6 casualties involved. That would mean that on the other two, they were

7 involved.

8 MR. STAMP: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

10 MR. STAMP:

11 Q. Who would normally responsible for checking and counting

12 casualties in respect to investigation of shelling incidents?

13 A. Authorised officials of the Ministry of the Interior who were

14 members of our team, that is, inspectors from homicide and the

15 investigating magistrate and of the seem team which makes up the crime

16 investigation, crime technicians had to identify the number and we would

17 reflect it in our reports.

18 Q. I take it, then, from your answer that it was not part of your

19 responsibility to determine exactly where they were casualties?

20 A. It wasn't.

21 Q. May I take you to the --

22 MR. STAMP: If it please you, Mr. President, I was just about to

23 go to another incident. But seeing the time --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MR. STAMP: With your leave, I would have just returned just for

Page 5165

1 the sake of convenience if it needs Court's approval to the scheduled

2 incident 5, that's the incident of the 5th of February, 1994. We have

3 produced here I think the very original document which was -- which is in

4 our evidence vault. And they have allowed us to take possession of it

5 because the copies which they have produced are not of the best

6 legibility.

7 So perhaps I could hand this copy to the witness so that we

8 could --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could read especially line 3 on the legend. But

10 would you please first give to the Defence, and I think the Chamber is

11 also very interested to see what the quality is.

12 MR. STAMP: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you first present it to the

14 Defence.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But I

16 wish to say I just read in the transcript they have authorised us. Can we

17 know who is in question, who is it who authorised?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, could you -- the question is since you

19 talked about authorisation, who gave the authorisation to get the

20 original?

21 Mr. Usher, could you please present it to the Chamber so that

22 we...

23 Mr. Stamp, could you answer to the question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. STAMP: Yes, I think it would be the keeper of the evidence

25 vault.

Page 5166

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in Sarajevo. Sarajevo, you mean?

2 MR. STAMP: In the OTP.

3 JUDGE ORIE: In the OTP.

4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, yes.

5 Since the question has been answered, please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

6 MR. STAMP: Yes.

7 Q. Could you have a look at that document. Is that the original of

8 the copy which you looked at earlier?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. And Item 3 in the legend, and as marked in the map, is what?

11 Could you tell us, please.

12 A. A market stall. And this is my handwriting.

13 Q. And Item 5 in the legend, you described to be the 22nd of December

14 building. Could you tell the Court the height of the building which you

15 recorded.

16 A. 18.450 millimetres, or if you like, 18 metres 450 millimetres.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

18 MR. STAMP: I don't know if this would be a convenient time. I

19 was just about to move on to another area.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it's a convenient time to conclude for

21 this moment at least the examination of the witness. On the other hand, I

22 wonder which of the documents are you going to tender? The original one,

23 well legible, or are you preparing another well legible copy, or what can

24 we expect?

25 MR. STAMP: I would be very grateful, since you suggested it,

Page 5167

1 Mr. President, if we could be allowed to obtain a better copy of the

2 original. We do tend to keep the originals as secure as possible for any

3 type of references for example of this nature.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well since all the parties have had an

5 opportunity to check specifically on those aspects which are badly

6 legible, we'll decide on it tomorrow. So you'll have an opportunity to

7 come up with a better copy.

8 Then I would say that we have three minutes left.

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you asked for three minutes. I'd like to give them to

10 you at this very moment, but perhaps first to ask the usher to lead the

11 witness out of the courtroom, but not until I've checked with the

12 technical booth that while leaving the courtroom -- no, it's not necessary

13 to pull the curtains down, Mr. Usher.

14 Can I get a confirmation from the technical booth that the witness

15 will not be on the video while leaving the courtroom.

16 Yes, Mr. Usher, you may lead the witness out of the courtroom.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is not mine,

18 but I believe there are people in the public gallery, and I believe that

19 they should be noted.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well first of all the Prosecution has told us

21 that the protective measures do not relate to those who are in the public

22 gallery. And it's mainly before -- for the outgoing video picture and I

23 secured that he will not appear on that.

24 So Mr. Usher, would you please lead Mr. Sabljica out of the

25 courtroom. And tomorrow morning, we'll resume at 9.00 but in a different

Page 5168

1 courtroom, Mr. Sabljica. Yes.

2 [Witness stands down]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, thank you,

5 Your Honour, for giving me the floor. I shall be very brief. The reason

6 we have to stand up is because we now need more than ever help and

7 consideration of your Chamber. We are now examining one of the most

8 important elements of this indictment, and that is some of the shellings

9 which happened in the Markale market. And we are now for the up to the

10 time asking for certain exhibits so that we could prepare our

11 cross-examination. We believe that there are two series of documents.

12 However, since so far we have not received any information at all from the

13 Prosecution, I think we shall have to keep asking where that is all the

14 time, now, and again. But we would much rather that your Chamber invite

15 us specifically, concretely, the Prosecution to let us know as soon as

16 possible when it comes to our examination of this expert witness, one,

17 what we know and do not know the set of some 72 pieces of this shrapnel of

18 the fragments which were photographed, where are they? Where are these

19 pieces? Have they been located? When will they be brought to The Hague?

20 This is the first time matter.

21 And secondly, we would directly like to know the orders and maps

22 of the main staff which are related to it and which is also important when

23 we talk about the staff operation the I have repeated asked for it, and we

24 have not yet received any answer except not legible and there is another

25 matter. And I shall be very brief, Mr. President, and which is after all

Page 5169

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Page 5170

1 my custom, and that is the production of exhibits. You see that we have

2 all difficulties here because we are receiving some copies which are

3 simply not legible. With we see the originals, we see that they are quite

4 legible. So I do not know why we cannot be given clearer copies because

5 everybody would save time. And on the same -- in the same vein, last

6 week, time was lost by many people because some tapes were produced

7 bearing certain numbers. What I needed to say here is that since we were

8 talking about two tapes which were tendered by the Prosecution and which

9 have 2279 and 2279A, at that time we did not receive under the normal

10 procedure these tapes with their correct numbers, and that is why we had

11 to go back to our place to go through all this material, and we simply

12 could not check the correctness of the first tape without the one which

13 was tendered under a different number to your Chamber. Therefore, could

14 you come up with a ruling, please, under which the Prosecution, whenever

15 it places a number on its exhibit, gives us this exhibit, a copy of it

16 under the correct number. That would facilitate matters greatly.

17 And then we shall be saving time in the future. Thank you very

18 much, Mr. President, in advance.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, you've heard what Mr. Piletta-Zanin said.

20 I think the Chamber will consider before tomorrow whether we'll go back

21 into the tape history again. I see that Mr. Piletta-Zanin does not insist

22 on going back into the tape history. But there was a commitment of the

23 Prosecution of last week about the photographs, pieces of shrapnel, and

24 orders and maps, to find out and inform the Chamber by the end of the week

25 what could be found and what their position was. I do not remember that

Page 5171

1 we have an answer yet. Are you able to give it right away, or would this

2 be the first thing you'd like to do tomorrow morning.

3 MR. STAMP: We would do it the first thing tomorrow morning

4 because we have quite a few ancillary issues to do tomorrow morning. And

5 I could be a very precise if we deal were it then.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll wait until tomorrow morning. Perhaps I

7 may have made a small mistake to the extent that I might have made a small

8 mistake to the extent that I indicated to the witness that we will resume

9 tomorrow at 9.00. On the other hand, we also indicated to the parties

10 before to the parties that we'll deal with the 92 bis issue to start with

11 tomorrow morning. So perhaps a message could be sent to the Victims and

12 Witness Unit that the presence of the witness is not necessary right away

13 at 9.00, it will take us certainly at least half an hour -- I hope

14 less -- but it will certainly take us approximately half an hour to deal

15 with some of the issues.

16 Is there anything else at this moment? Then we'll adjourn until

17 9.00 tomorrow morning in Courtroom II.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 4.05 p.m., to be reconvened on

20 Tuesday, the 12th day of March, 2000,

21 at 9.00 a.m.

22

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