1 Thursday, 14 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Madam Registrar, I think before resuming the cross-examination of
11 the witness Mr. Sabljica, I'd like to turn into private session in order
12 to give a decision on a request made orally yesterday.
13 [Private session]
12 Page 5343 – redacted – private session
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that "PS" disappeared from the screen.
1 1 That means that we now could escort Mr. Sabljica back into the courtroom.
2 But I'll first ask the technical booth not to have his face on the video
3 while he enters the Court, since facial distortion is one of the
4 protective measures in effect.
5 Mr. Usher, could you...
6 Ms. Pilipovic.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Thank
8 you. The Defence would just like to inform the Chamber concerning our
9 conversation about the document 2172. Our learned friends informed us
10 yesterday that it was on the 26th of November that they had provided us
11 with the document that we were given yesterday. After a thorough search
12 of all the documents in our possession, we just wish to notify the Chamber
13 of the fact that we have not received such document. The document that we
14 had under Number 2172 was an illegible document. In order not to waste
15 this Honourable Chamber's time, I should kindly ask my learned friends
16 from the Prosecution not to provide such false information to the Court.
17 As for any misunderstandings that may have happened between the parties, I
18 suggest that we try to clear up the issue amongst ourselves.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You're talking about 2172, the photo series, or...?
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. STAMP: If it please you, Mr. President, without spending too
23 much time on this, the Prosecution at no stage intends to proffer to the
24 Court false information.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And to make it quite short, I take it that if
1 such statements are made, that these will be mistakes, if not true. I do
2 not start with the thought that there would be any incorrect information
3 given on purpose. That's my starting point for both parties. Would it
4 ever turn out that it would be different, then of course we have a serious
5 problem. But I do understand that the Defence says it's not correct
6 information. I can't check it at this very moment.
7 MR. STAMP: I will check it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Of course you will check it. What I'd like to
9 prevent is that, finally, this Chamber is sitting, hearing that false
10 information is given, whether on purpose or not, that the other party says
11 it's not true, et cetera, et cetera. If there's any such problem, I'd
12 like you to ask the Prosecutor why he has given information which is not
13 true so that he can at that very moment respond and say, well, it is true
14 because of these and these reasons. And you check it again, and to solve
15 these problems, at least to try to solve these problems first out of this
16 courtroom, and only when both parties have tried to clarify where the
17 misunderstanding is, and if finally one of the parties is really convinced
18 that this Court is provided, on purpose, on important issues with false
19 information, then of course we'll give it full attention. But first
20 exchange your views, see where the miscommunication might be, and only if
21 finally you will not resolve the problem, then come to the Court. Because
22 then we can pay proper attention to it and not say, well, I hear you
23 saying it's false, I hear you saying you didn't do it on purpose. I mean,
24 it doesn't assist us very much in the conduct of the trial at this moment.
25 If there's a great problem, we'll pay proper attention to it.
1 MR. STAMP: I entirely agree, Mr. President.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm happy to see both parties agree with what I said.
4 Mr. Usher -- is there anything? Yes, please.
5 MR. STAMP: May I just say that the statement having been put on
6 the record just in respect to this issue, I will clarify it and provide
7 the Court with very accurate information in respect to what was served and
8 how many times these documents were served on the Defence. And I will do
9 so after the next break, just for the record. Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if the parties might have difficulties in
11 exchanging the views as I suggested to them, finally, I might -- or this
12 Chamber might come to a position where we say these kind of objections,
13 write them down, we'll see how they reach the Chamber, and not spend
14 valuable time on it in Court. We have to make a clear distinction between
15 those issues that are of importance to the trial and those issues that are
16 mainly reflecting dissatisfaction, irritation, whatever you call it,
17 because I want to make a clear distinction between these two.
18 Mr. Usher, could you please lead in the -- yes.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, excuse me, but
20 with your permission, I should like to follow up on what you have just
21 said regarding the following, and it is extremely important that we know
22 for the purposes of the right of the Defence what has been done by the
23 Prosecution in order to trace the evidence, physical evidence, that we
24 have spoken about, that is the fragments of the shell. We should like to
25 ask the Prosecution how far they have gone in that search, because a
1 number of questions that we wanted to ask of this witness will simply not
2 be -- it will simply not be possible to ask them because we have been
3 prevented. I mean, we practically have been prevented from using this
4 possibility. And I should like to hear Mr. Stamp to tell us how things
5 stand in respect of this issue so as to give us a general idea of that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, is there any new information, because we
7 discussed the matter a couple of times over the last few days?
8 MR. STAMP: Yes, we have discussed it quite a few times over the
9 last few days, and it was indicated that the Prosecution would give some
10 response in respect to that matter and the matter of the orders, or to
11 give whatever additional information that we have. Could we do so after
12 the next break? We are still trying to get whatever information we can
13 put together in a comprehensive package. And one of the sources of that
14 information would only be available this morning.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I think at this moment, especially the
16 shrapnel, the -- well, the search for the present location of the shrapnel
17 that is --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right. That
19 is in relation to Rule 96(ii)(A). The Defence is not in a position to
20 determine its stand because we do not dispose of these very important
21 elements, this very important evidence. If this issue continues, I think
22 it will be to the detriment of General Galic.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You're referring to 96(ii)(A) but --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. No. I
25 said 90(H)(ii).
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any additional information, just about
2 the shrapnel, Mr. Stamp?
3 MR. STAMP: We have not been able to locate the shrapnel.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. STAMP: We have done everything we can to obtain whatever
6 artifacts which remain or which were collected. The evidence before the
7 Court is that many of these things were lost or possibly thrown out over
8 the years when the building moved, or when changes were made. We have
9 made requests; we have repeated these requests. We have sent missions.
10 We have asked for searches, and we have obtained what we can. We continue
11 to make requests, and we continue to try to locate whatever artifacts we
13 JUDGE ORIE: Where there any new initiatives during the last few
15 MR. STAMP: Yes, but I would ask if --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Without results. So at this very moment --
17 MR. STAMP: Yes, without results.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as I indicated before, the
19 Defence, of course, also could try to locate the shrapnel. What
20 initiatives have been taken by the Defence in that respect?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, following the
22 suggestions made by the Chamber, I stated that I would personally write to
23 the authorities. However, it is not very simple. I'm trying to identify
24 the relevant authority that might help us. Maybe we will use diplomatic
25 channels because it is evident that if a humble lawyer should write
1 directly to the MUP, I don't think he can expect a prompt answer. So I'm
2 trying to explore the best possible ways to approach the issue, to
3 identify the relevant authorities. I will expect some answers next week,
4 but I have to tell you right away that I'm not harbouring too much hope.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, for your
7 Before I ask the usher to bring the witness into the courtroom,
8 may I urge both parties to use their time as efficiently as possible,
9 because we all know that since preparations have been made for the
10 videolink for next week, that those witnesses waiting here, of course it
11 would be a pity if we would have to send them back and recall them at a
12 later stage. So may I especially at this very moment ask for the utmost
13 efficiency by both parties.
14 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in Mr. Sabljica.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Sabljica. May I remind you that
17 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you made last Monday.
18 The cross-examination by Ms. Pilipovic will now continue. Please
19 proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 WITNESS: MIRZA SABLJICA [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sabljica.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. Yesterday, before we adjourned, we spoke about an incident which
2 you, as a member of a team of the Sarajevo CSB, attended and took part in
3 the conduct of investigating activities. You told us that the shrapnel
4 was collected by Mr. Sead Besic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you personally see the shrapnel in question in the archives of
7 your service, that is, the public Security Services Centre?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you see Mr. Besic take photographs of that shrapnel?
10 A. I saw him taking photographs, and I presume that he was also
11 taking photographs of the shrapnel.
12 Q. When and where was that?
13 A. During the on-site investigation. As we visited the scene, he
14 photographed the traces of the explosion, including the shrapnel that we
15 found on the site.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
17 like to show the witness Document D61. It is a set of photographs of
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
20 Mr. Usher, could you assist.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Witness, do you recognise the photograph?
23 A. Well, frankly speaking, it could be a photograph of any similar
24 case, so I cannot confirm with certainty that this is the shrapnel from
25 Markale market.
1 Q. Were you in a position to see them lined up in this way when your
2 colleague, Mr. Besic, took photographs of them?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
4 MR. STAMP: May I just inquire through the Court if the document
5 he is looking at could be put on the ELMO.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please put it on the ELMO.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Sabljica, I should like to ask you to put it on the ELMO so
9 that we can all see it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
11 A. No, I didn't see him arrange the shrapnel in this manner. I saw
12 him taking photographs of the shrapnel on the location while they were
13 still on the market at various locations around the explosion spot. He
14 did this probably later on, so I presume that this photograph was taken
15 somewhere in the offices of the crime laboratory.
16 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether the shrapnel, together with the
17 tail-fin, were ever sent for analysis?
18 A. I don't have any such knowledge, but I know that if the adequate
19 procedure was followed, they must have been sent for analysis.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sabljica.
21 Mr. Sabljica, you told us that as a team member of the on-site
22 investigation, you were present when the incident took place on the 4th of
23 February in Dobrinja. Can you tell us, in relation to this incident, in
24 what capacity were you there as a team member?
25 A. I was there in the capacity of a ballistics expert. I was one of
1 the ballistic experts team that was led by the investigative magistrate.
2 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you explained to us that you
3 proceeded to the analysis of site 1 and 2, and that you found some
4 stabilisers. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Your written report, the on-site report, states that on the 4th of
7 February in Dobrinja, two shells hit, and that the calibre of these mortar
8 shells were 120 millimetres. Is this correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you explain to us how is it that an official report contained
11 that -- or states that there were three shells if the analysis was not
12 carried out?
13 A. The investigating magistrate, Mr. Zdenko Eterovic, insisted upon
14 the fact that we should also mention a third shell that we had not
15 analysed and that had hit a religious building that was situated right
16 behind the square. He had gone with the operative to examine the site in
17 question. This is the reason why we stated that fact in the report.
18 Q. Do you consider that it is sufficient to inscribe information that
19 you obtained from a nonprofessional that a shell of 120 millimetres hit?
20 Do you think this information is sufficient to include it in an official
22 A. My personal decision is that an omission was made. The judge
23 really insisted.
24 Q. We were able to see on pictures that we examined in Court that
25 right next to the site where the shell fell, that there were some maps
1 placed. Could you tell us who placed those maps around those impact
3 A. The maps were placed by Mr. Zlatko Medjedovic and myself.
4 Q. Can you tell us how did you go about placing these maps? Did you
5 have to do something special? What are the measures that you take in
6 order to place these maps? How do you determine where to place these
8 A. The map has to be placed in the direction of the north, so we have
9 to first establish the north, and then we have to identify the magnetic
10 north with the help of a compass.
11 Q. Is it possible that you can make a mistake when you place the maps
12 in such a way?
13 A. Yes, it is always possible. There's always a difference of a
14 plus/minus 5 degrees.
15 Q. Can you tell us what is the difference in terms of degrees between
16 the north and northeast?
17 A. I did not understand your question.
18 Q. What is the difference in terms of degrees between the difference
19 -- in the difference between the north and northeast? What do you read
20 on the compass when you say that you determined the north?
21 A. On the compass, between the north and the east, the angle that is
22 shown is 90 degrees. So between north and northeast, the difference
23 should be 90 degrees.
24 Q. Can you explain to us, why did you and Mr. Medjedovic, when you
25 were on the site, why did you not determine the angle of descent of the
1 two shells at the spot where you found the stabilisers?
2 A. Because it was never part of our on-site investigation. That was
3 not part of our task to determine from where the shell fell, but only the
4 direction. So we never really had to evaluate the descent angle, the
5 angle of descent.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
7 like to show a set of pictures. It is the Prosecution's Document P2247,
8 and it's pictures that were taken or relate to the incident of the 24th of
9 February, 1994.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Ms. Pilipovic.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Sabljica, those are the two pictures, P11, pictures on which
13 you have placed arrows that show the direction from which the shell fell.
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... or
15 Prosecution Exhibit P2247?
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is the Document P2247A.
17 Q. Mr. Sabljica, please look at picture number 5 first, and then I
18 would like you to examine picture number 11.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just pause one moment.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you refer to 2247. That is a set of
22 photographs. And when asked for a specification whether you'd like to
23 have 2247 or 2247A, you said you'd like to have 2247A, which is a report.
24 I take it that you want to show to the witness 2247, the set of
25 photographs. Yes. Yes, that's an existing exhibit number.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm terribly sorry.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please then proceed.
3 Would you please then put the photographs on the ELMO, Mr. Usher.
4 So the photographs that were on the ELMO.
5 And may I ask the booth --
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Sabljica, would you please look at picture number 5.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The French interpreters are
9 stating that they no longer have a transcript. So I don't know if they
10 are following the transcript and interpreting from the transcript, but I
11 would like to ask the technical booth to do something. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I see that the transcript channel on our screens
13 gives a "no signal" sign. On our laptops, however, we have a transcript.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could the parties at this very moment use their
16 laptop transcript, which is the -- the interpreters have no laptops.
17 Perhaps we first wait, because the interpreters also need to have their
18 facilities working.
19 I think we have to have some patience.
20 Yes, I see that on all the screens I can overlook from here, that
21 the transcript is again on our screens, and it shows us that high-tech is
22 beautiful as long as it functions.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Sabljica, please take a look at picture number 5, first.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you see the east indicated on this picture on the map, and were
3 you able to determine if in that direction you could place the building
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it written under there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would you please take a look at picture number 11. We can also
9 see that there is a map placed. There's also a compass and an arrow.
10 Underneath, we can see the following inscription: direction, east
11 northeast. We can also read that in that direction, the building
12 Energoinvest Lukavica is located. Is this correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you please tell us the following: If one says that a shell
15 that has 120 millimetre calibre and that it flew from the direction of the
16 north and that the second shell was -- or arrived from the east, we said
17 that there is a certain angle of difference in the angle, and we have
18 established that there's a difference between the east and northeast, so
19 there is a difference in angle between the two. And here, we see that
20 we're talking about the east, east-north, if you will. How were you able
21 to determine in both cases that the shells came from the direction of the
22 Energoinvest building, that the axis was from there?
23 A. The complex of this building Energoinvest was just an orientation
24 point. One shell flew from the east and the other one from the northeast,
25 so there was a certain difference in degrees. And we did not put that
1 down between the north and the east, so their points actually concurred
2 somewhere around the Energoinvest building, and this is what I drew,
3 actually. I made a sketch of this.
4 Q. Would you agree with me to say that the difference between north
5 and northeast, difference in angle, is 45 degrees?
6 A. Yes. It's somewhere between 0 and 45 degrees, so it's one of
7 these angles.
8 Q. Do you consider your conclusion that both shells came from the
9 direction of the Energoinvest building correct?
10 A. I repeat that the Energoinvest building was only considered to be
11 as an orientation point. We only mentioned that building as a
12 supposition. We were never able to determine that the shell was fired
13 from that building.
14 Q. Can you tell us if, based on these facts for which you stated they
15 are erroneous and that they are only orientational points, why is it hat
16 in your reports you wrote down that those shells came from the position of
17 the aggressor?
18 MR. STAMP: May I just ask for clarification of that question.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
20 MR. STAMP: Clarification of the question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it be possible to confront the witness
22 with the exact part of his report, or the report.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the report from the
24 forensic department, this is a report dated February 4th, 1994, bearing
25 number 234-94. For this report, it is possible for us to show it to the
1 witness, if you will.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you read the line with which you would like
3 to --
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In order to be
5 more efficacious, I will read line: "On the 4th of February, 1994, at
6 11.25, the aggressor fired from their positions in Lukavica and fired
7 three mortar shells of 120 millimetres calibre in the Dobrinja
8 neighbourhood on the street of Oslobodilaca Sarajeva."
9 Q. Mr. Sabljica, do you know if this is an official report, and do
10 you know if those three shells, in fact, flew in from the direction of the
11 aggressor? Was this, in fact, an official report? Do you know this?
12 A. It is the first time that I hear of this report. What I wrote in
13 my report is quite different. This is not what I'm stating in my own
14 report, and I can only confirm what I wrote. I do not know who wrote this
15 at all.
16 Q. Mr. Sabljica, thank you.
17 Can you tell us if concerning this incident that took place on the
18 4th of February, 1994, in Dobrinja, do you know if the UNPROFOR was
20 A. I really don't know.
21 Q. Do you know, and can you tell us, if the UNPROFOR members later,
22 after your on-site investigation with the team in question, do you know if
23 they proceeded to do some measurements and if they had received a report
24 regarding this incident?
25 A. I really do not know this, unfortunately.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 Mr. Sabljica, I would like to ask you a few questions relating to
3 an incident that took place on the 22nd of January in Alipasino Polje.
4 Would you be able to tell us when did you arrive on the scene?
5 A. Around 2.00 p.m.
6 Q. Did all the team members arrive at the same time, or did you come
7 there individually at different times?
8 A. I think that the investigating magistrate was about 10 minutes
9 late, so we waited for him.
10 Q. Can you tell us, what were the weather conditions that day? Do
11 you remember?
12 A. I know that there was snow on the ground, but it was not snowing,
13 and I do not know if it was a clear day or it was an overcast day. I
14 really don't remember.
15 Q. When you arrived on the scene, while you were waiting for the
16 investigating judge, did you find or did you see the stabiliser there?
17 A. No. For those two 82 millimetre shells, we did not, except for
18 one shell for which allegedly it was said that it fell on the roof and
19 that has 120 millimetre calibre.
20 Q. Can you tell us, regarding the 82 millimetre shell that you
21 recorded on Cetinjska Street, which has a different name today, it's
22 Goethe Street, do you know how many casualties there were caused by this
24 A. I believe that in the report, we can see that there were five
25 casualties, but that's relating to this second incident that occurred in
1 front of the number 4.
2 Q. So you don't really remember this incident clearly?
3 A. If you would allow me to consult my report, then I would be able
4 to tell you with certainty.
5 Q. Can you tell us and do you know if on Rade Koncara and in that
6 general area, which is known under the name of Alipasino Polje, do you
7 know if there were any military installations around that area or in that
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you find out perhaps later on that there were some police --
11 some reserve police stations there?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You just told us that on Goethe Street number 3, an 82 millimetre
14 shell hit at that spot. Can you tell us and confirm to us if on Klare
15 Zetkin Street number 4, there was also an 82 millimetre shell that fell?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
17 MR. STAMP: Perhaps I missed it, perhaps there's some problem with
18 the translation. I don't have it where he said anything about Goethe
19 Street number 3.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think recently -- since there has been a
21 change of names, that at least one of the things that has been said, but
22 I'm not quite sure whether it was Ms. Pilipovic or the witness.
23 MR. STAMP: She said it. That's not evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Ms. Pilipovic, would you first seek
25 confirmation whether your interpretation of the new name of the street is
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Sabljica, can you tell us if the street that used to be
4 Cetinjska number 3 is now called Goethe Street?
5 A. Believe me, I really don't know what the new name is.
6 Q. Do you know if the street that used to be called Klare Zetkin is
7 now called Bosanska?
8 A. I really don't know this either. I could not confirm this to
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I think you're perfectly right, it was not
11 the testimony of the witness. But, of course, there could be hardly any
12 confusion if Ms. Pilipovic says that a street with a different name is now
13 called Goethe Street. And if she asks about Goethe Street, then of course
14 I understand that she refers to the street of which the name was given
16 So I would say that although you're perfectly right, there would
17 be hardly any misunderstanding possible.
18 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I really
20 didn't want to waste any time, so I didn't really show the map of the city
21 of Sarajevo. But I checked on the map, and I realised that these streets
22 have changed names, and that Klare Zetkin now changed the name to
23 Bosanska, and that Cetinjska Street changed its name to Goethe Street, but
24 I will, for the purposes of this day today or trial today, use the old
1 JUDGE ORIE: I do expect that there's no intention whatsoever, and
2 there would be no confusion. But if you use the names of the streets used
3 in the reports as they were at that time, then I think -- but I can
4 imagine when you prepared your cross-examination that you used the other
5 street names. I'd prefer if you used the same names of the streets as the
6 witness did before.
7 MR. STAMP: Very well. I was just suggesting that we could agree
8 upon it. But she also could use the previous names.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think let's continue, because what
10 Ms. Pilipovic thinks is the Goethe Street is the street mentioned by the
11 original name as well.
12 MR. STAMP: I think she really means Gatiova, G-a-t-i-o-v-a, not
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it's Goethe, the German writer. That's
15 how I understood it.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely. Your Honour, I did
17 say that I was going to use the previous names of streets just to avoid
18 any confusion.
19 Q. Mr. Sabljica, on the 22nd of January, did you carry out an on-site
20 investigation regarding Cetinjska number 3 Street, and did you also go to
21 the site of the Klare Zetkin Street number 4?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you also carry out an on-site investigation for which it was
24 determined that a 120 millimetre shell landed on the Rade Koncara Square?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In your report that you read to us yesterday which is, by the way,
2 illegible and which was also signed by the late Borislav Stanko, did you
3 confirm therefore in this report that on that day two 82-millimetre shells
4 landed and that there was also another 120-millimetre shell that was --
5 that fell?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Sabljica, during your on-site investigation which took place
8 on those two sites, in order to determine the direction from which the
9 shell arrived, did you use the same means in order to establish this? And
10 we've talked about these means in length.
11 A. Yes, we always use the same method.
12 Q. Did you also place a town map on the spot which you marked with
13 arrows, and did you have a compass on that occasion as well?
14 A. Yes, we used the usual -- the same procedure.
15 Q. Can you tell us whether you cleared up the impact location during
16 this particular on-site investigation?
17 A. That job is normally done by crime technicians, but I don't
18 remember seeing them do it.
19 Q. When this incident happened, who was the crime technician, or who
20 were crime technicians? If you want to use the name of a protected
21 witness, you should perhaps want to use letter "Q."
22 MR. STAMP: [Previous translation continues] ... Very well.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the Witness Q, you're right.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a bit surprised that a witness would know about
25 exactly the pseudonyms given to other witnesses, but is there any
1 misunderstanding possible? If not, please proceed. But you'll understand
2 that the witness should not be aware of any protective measures taken in
3 respect of other witnesses. But finally, if this satisfies both parties,
4 then it's all right as far as I'm concerned.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the
6 witness normally should not know; however, I think that yesterday he was
7 in the courtroom when we referred to this particular witness, so he is
8 aware of the fact that he is a beneficiary of some protective measures.
9 That's why I think he reacted this way.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So we located the source of knowledge for this
11 witness, but I'd like to tell you, Mr,. Sabljica that by misfortune you
12 became aware of the identity of a witness which is called "Q" in this
13 courtroom. You're not allowed under whatever circumstances to give this
14 information to any person outside this courtroom. I just wanted you to
15 know that you're under an obligation to keep this a secret, as it is for
16 everyone in this courtroom. Yes?
17 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Witness, can you now tell us what particular forensic measures or
20 steps were taken by Witness Q, apart from the fact that he took
22 A. In accordance with the long-established procedure, the crime
23 technician was in charge of preparing the scene for the purposes of
24 carrying out further analysis which is then done by us, ballistics
25 experts. At that moment, I was not supervising him because, after all,
1 he's a well-experienced technician. But I know that he enabled us to
2 carry out our on-site investigation without major difficulties.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
4 like to show the witness at this point Prosecution Exhibit 2172, the set
5 of photographs.
6 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution Document Number P2172.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Sabljica, would you first of all look at the photograph number
9 1 on this document, please. Can you confirm for us that the arrow
10 indicates the explosion site in Cetinjska number 3 on this photograph?
11 A. Yes, it does.
12 Q. Can you tell us why on this occasion you did not photograph -- you
13 did not take any photograph at the moment you put the town map and the
14 compass on the site?
15 A. I don't remember the exact explanation, but I remember that the
16 technician took those photographs as well.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in a little bit so
18 that we can see the exact location where the shell landed, where the arrow
19 is, please. It's not a very clear picture.
20 Q. Witness, have another look at the photograph, please, and tell us
21 whether you can confirm whether the impact point and the area surrounding
22 it is especially visible, and that it is actually a cleared-up portion of
23 the area? I am referring to the area which surrounds the impact point.
24 A. Do I understand you correctly, do you want to ask me whether this
25 was properly cleaned up?
1 Q. First of all, I want to ask you whether anyone cleaned the site,
2 and is it the usual procedure prior to taking photographs of the impact
4 A. Yes, it is the usual procedure.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 Would you now have a look at photograph number 2, please. You
7 confirmed that this photograph also depicts the impact point in Cetinjska
8 number 3?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Please have a closer look at the photograph and the direction of
11 the arrow towards the very edge of the photograph and tell us what part of
12 the neighbourhood can be seen on this photograph, that is, the buildings
13 that we can see in the distance. And is it a mountainous, hilly area, and
14 if you know, tell us what area it is precisely?
15 A. I think it is the edge of the Mojmilo neighbourhood.
16 Q. Is it your testimony that the Mojmilo hill is in the same
18 A. That is the very edge, the first slopes of Mojmilo hill.
19 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether during that period of
20 time, in 1994, the hill was under the BH army control? Were BH army
21 troops there?
22 A. Yes, that was the front line at the time.
23 Q. How far was the front line? Actually, how far apart those lines
25 A. Do you mean between the BH army and VRS?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. No, I don't know that.
3 Q. Mr. Sabljica, you told us that your internship lasted until the
4 end of 1993 and that you didn't have to pass an examination -- that you
5 didn't take a test. Is that the reason why you didn't sign the report of
6 the incident which took place on the 22nd of January? Is that the reason
7 why it was Mr. Stanko who signed the report in question?
8 A. Yes, you're correct.
9 Q. Did you in that capacity at the time have authority to sign
10 records of investigation? When I say "record of investigation," I refer
11 to ballistics records of investigation, or was it the case that more
12 experienced colleagues signed such documents?
13 A. I had the authority to sign the record from the beginning of
14 December 1993. But in this case, this was done by the late Stanko.
15 Q. Who gave you the authority to sign such records? Did you have a
16 written permission, written authority, to sign such records?
17 A. It was the then head of the forensics department who gave me such
18 permission, Mr. Nedzad Zekic.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 Mr. Sabljica, can you tell us whether it is important for the
21 purposes of a ballistics analysis to measure the distance between the
22 impact point and the closest buildings?
23 A. Normally, this is always done, but it is for the purposes of doing
24 the reconstruction of the event pursuant to a request made by an
25 investigating magistrate or some other authority. The impact point is
1 always taken with respect to some fixtures, some buildings, or other
2 similar facilities.
3 Q. So are you telling us that it is important for the purposes of a
4 ballistics analysis to measure the distance between the impact point and
5 the closest facilities?
6 A. Well, it has nothing to do with the analysis of the incoming path
7 of the shell. It is in order to satisfy the usual requirements of an
8 investigation report that this is done.
9 Q. I'm referring specifically to the 22nd January incident. Did you
10 take any such measures on this occasion, that is, did you measure the
11 distance between the impact point? We saw that you did so in Cetinjska
12 number 3, but did you also take measurements of the distance between the
13 impact point and the nearest building?
14 A. If you'll allow me to have a look at my report, perhaps I will be
15 able to confirm your question.
16 Q. Yesterday, you read out the report for us. I don't want to have
17 it read once again. I'm referring to the same report.
18 A. Normally, it is the usual procedure that we sort of fix the impact
19 point with respect of a building, but I don't remember that we took any
20 specific measurements.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 In the course of your work in the MUP, that is, the public
23 security centre, did you know that there was a factory for mine production
24 at Alipasino Polje?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Since we were able to confirm from your report that on the 22nd of
2 January two shells landed, two 82-millimetre shells and one 120-millimetre
3 shell, do you know what the report was, the one that was made by the crime
4 technicians in respect of this particular site?
5 A. No, I don't. I haven't read this report.
6 Q. If I put to you the 22nd January report --
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence would
8 like to tender the report concerning the 22nd of January incident as an
9 exhibit, and we would like to show it at this point to the witness. I
10 will read the relevant portion of the report in respect of which I need an
11 answer. The relevant report has been translated into English.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you'd -- have you prenumbered the report,
13 Ms. Pilipovic?
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. D67.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And the English translation will then be D67.1. Yes.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think if you tender the document, it could be given
18 to the witness as well.
19 MR. STAMP: May I just comment that --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. STAMP: If perhaps the Court could ask the witness to be
22 careful not to put the document on the ELMO unless directed because
23 there's a name on it we perhaps don't want --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we perhaps -- I haven't read it yet. Let's
25 start to keep it from the ELMO until we have a ...
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Sabljica, do you recognise this document?
3 A. This is the first time I see it.
4 Q. These forms and the method of writing such forensic reports on
5 on-site investigations, are they the same as the ones that your service
6 uses? Is it the same kind of document that you have to fill out after an
7 on-site investigation?
8 A. Yes, and they are filled out by crime technicians or forensic
10 Q. You told us that there was a forensic expert at the scene together
11 with you on that day. After number 4, can we read on this document that
12 on the 22nd of January, and so on and so forth?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Around 13.50, from the direction of Nedzarici west, two mortar
15 shells fell, each of 120 millimetres, in Klare Zetkin number 4, and
16 another one in Cetinjska number 3.
17 A. Yes, that's what the report says.
18 Q. Having in mind the answers that you have so far provided
19 concerning the identification of mine calibres, shell calibres, can you
20 confirm that this report is consistent with what you were able to
21 establish? Let me just remind you that you testified that the shells in
22 question were 82 millimetre shells.
23 A. No, I do not agree. What has been written here by the crime
24 technician is not accurate.
25 Q. Mr. Sabljica, can you confirm for us whether it is acceptable for
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 an investigation team conducting a visit of a crime scene, especially in
2 cases of such serious incidents with grave consequences, to make such
3 arbitrary and unconfirmed reports? Is this an acceptable practice? In
4 particular I'm referring to the fact that there are two different reports
6 A. Yes, I can, that is, I can confirm that it is an unacceptable
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sabljica.
9 Will you please look at photograph number 5 at this point.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Are we still talking about 2172, Ms. Pilipovic?
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's the set of photographs, yes.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 2172, yes.
14 Q. You have in front of you, Mr. Sabljica, photograph number 5.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you recognise this photograph?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Can you tell us what the distance is between the spot which is
19 marked with an arrow where you established a shell had landed and the
20 nearest entrance of this building? What is the distance between the
21 impact point and the building?
22 A. Approximately 10 metres to this alley, this passage.
23 Q. What about the nearest steps?
24 A. 5 to 6 metres.
25 Q. Is it your testimony that the location at number 4 in Klare Zetkin
1 Street is a location where the shell landed?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell us about the effects of this 82 millimetre shell. What were
4 the consequences; that is, how many casualties were there in this
5 particular incident, if you know?
6 A. The report states that five persons were killed in this incident.
7 Q. When did you take photographs of this location? You did so after
8 the incident. You said that you arrived at the scene around 2.00, 2.00
9 p.m., and that the incident took place at around 11.00 a.m. So is it,
10 what, two hours after the incident?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
13 MR. STAMP: Again, I might have missed something. Did the witness
14 say that the incident took place at around 11.00?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please locate the source, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 It's not in my recollection. I'm not saying yes or no.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will check.
18 Q. Mr. Sabljica, do you know when, at what time, this incident
20 A. If you let me look at the report, I can tell you the exact time,
21 but I think it occurred at about 11.00. We can check.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have the relevant
23 record in front of me. I can show it to the witness. However, I cannot
24 see from the record of the on-site investigation that the time is
25 indicated. What we have here is at about 1.15.
1 Q. So is it then 1.15 or 11.00?
2 A. Well, then it must be at 1.00 p.m. and 15 minutes.
3 Q. When did you arrive at the scene?
4 A. An hour later, thereabouts.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague is
6 telling me that this would be the convenient time for a break.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
8 Mr. Stamp, you're on your feet. I thought you would --
9 MR. STAMP: Yes. I would have liked to address the Court on a
10 certain matter. I will do so. As I indicated earlier, I accept Your
11 Honours' order that certain matters should be dealt with between counsel,
12 and we will do so in future. However, something was stated on the record,
13 and I just wish to put on the record that in June 2000, the coloured
14 documents were delivered to Mr. Kostic for the Defence, and he signed for
15 it. Thereafter when counsel, Ms. Pilipovic, became involved, she
16 indicated that she had problems in the transfer of documents. And on the
17 3rd of March, 2001, the coloured copies were delivered to her and she
18 signed for it -- the 1st of March, and they were signed for.
19 Subsequently, the documents, not coloured copies, were again
20 disclosed to the Defence. So coloured copies have been disclosed more
21 than once to the Defence, and we will produce receipts if called upon to
22 do so. I say this just for the record in respect to this. In the future,
23 we hope to communicate with counsel and deal with these matters.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the Chamber hopes that will be done as
25 well. If there is any dispute as to whether documents have been given to
1 the Defence, of course you'll first show each other the receipts, the
2 dates, et cetera. And only if then finally it turns out that any
3 obligation has been neglected by one of the parties, and if this would be
4 of any substantial influence on the trial, then of course this Chamber
5 will be glad to hear about it.
6 Ms. Pilipovic.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] With the Court's indulgence, just
8 a second, Your Honour. The colour documents were received by me, however,
9 not in respect of this incident. I received the documents for the 5th of
10 February and the 22nd of February [sic]. I simply see no reason why I
11 would have stated anything different had I received the document. But I'm
12 sure that I have not received these specific documents.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So the first thing the parties now will do is to see
14 whether the information about the delivery of colour documents was
15 information concerning the same photographs or different photographs. If
16 a serious problem remains, I'll be glad - and I'm sure that my colleagues
17 are also glad - to hear so. If no serious problem remains, we would love
18 not to hear about it any more.
19 We'll have a break until 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. After I read at least part of the
23 correspondence and just very briefly -- I see, Mr. Ierace, you appear in
24 Court. Is there any specific reason? Not that you're not welcome in this
25 courtroom, but I expected that Ms. Pilipovic would resume the
1 cross-examination of the witness.
2 Is there anything you want to bring to the attention of the
4 MR. IERACE: On Tuesday morning, Mr. President, I said that this
5 morning, Thursday morning, I would report back briefly in response to the
6 two questions that you posed, namely, whether the Prosecution has
7 disclosed to the Defence all of the orders which we hold of the 1st Corps,
8 and secondly, whether we have disclosed all of the orders which we hold
9 from the main staff to all of the corps including the 1st Corps, that is,
10 orders which apply to all of the corps. The answers to those two
11 questions I can now provide, together with some brief information in
12 relation to the shrapnel.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, the shrapnel -- I'm a bit hesitating
14 to do this in the presence of the witness. So I don't know whether you
15 stay with us for the next one hour and a half. If so, I would rather do
16 it then at the end. How much time would it take you, so that perhaps we
17 first continue with the witness, and then do it at the end before the next
18 break. Would that be convenient to you?
19 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President, I could return, say, five
20 or ten minutes before the end of this session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would be approximately -- let's say if you
22 would return at 12.20, approximately. I would rather not interrupt, if
23 not necessary, and send out the witness again. Yes?
24 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Ierace.
1 Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, who is going to resume the
2 cross-examination of Mr. Sabljica?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is going to be my
4 colleague, Ms. Pilipovic, but I just wanted to reply that yes, we are very
5 agreeable to your suggestion, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Witness, we talked about picture number 5 before the break. Is
9 this picture near you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you please take a look at photo number 5. You told us
12 already what the distance was between the place where the shell hit and
13 the entrance or the passage. Could you explain to us the area that
14 surrounds the building that doesn't seem to be damaged from the shell, how
15 do you explain this fact that a shell landed at that site and that it did
16 not damage this particular building that we see on this photograph?
17 A. The building is in the opposite direction of the direction from
18 which the shell arrived, and the shrapnel effect on that side was less
19 important. So I think that from the angle from which the picture is
20 taken, we cannot really see very clearly that there was some damage done
21 to the building that was situated in the direction of this arrow, that is,
22 the opposite side of this one. I believe that the crime scene technician
23 made an omission because he did not take a picture of the facade and the
24 surrounding area surrounding this particular staircase.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sabljica.
1 Regarding the question I just asked in relation to the damage,
2 could you please take a look at picture number 1. Can you tell us the
3 effect caused of the shell that fell around this? Can you tell us why is
4 it that there was no damage caused to those cars?
5 A. The picture does not depict very clearly the crater. I cannot
6 really orient myself with respect to the crater. But those cars were
7 damaged previously already.
8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sabljica, would you be able to tell us if the CSB
9 was under the control of the MUP?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. While you were working at the CSB, did you know if there were some
12 special units within the MUP?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Which are those special units for which you know that they
15 existed? Did they have any particular names?
16 A. I know of the special unit of the MUP, the commander of this unit
17 was Mr. Vikic. And I also know that there was a special unit of the CSB
18 called Lasta.
19 Q. Do you know if there were some special units called Seva within
20 the MUP, and those units would be sniping units and special -- there was
21 also a special unit called a Delta within the MUP. Are you aware of the
22 existence of these two units?
23 A. I heard of these two units through the media, but only after the
24 conflict had ended already.
25 Q. Can you tell us, what did you know about the Seva unit? What role
1 did this unit have from what you found out later on?
2 A. It was a special unit, nothing else. I did not read anything more
3 in the Nasi Dani paper. It was a special purposes unit.
4 Q. While you were working at the MUP, were you aware of the fact that
5 on the area of Sarajevo, in the city of Sarajevo that was under the
6 control of BiH, that there were some special prisons, and by this I mean
7 special prisons destined for Serbs?
8 A. I knew that there was a prison in the old Viktor Bubanj barracks,
9 and there were some other -- everybody was actually at that prison.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this ends my
11 cross-examination with regards to this witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I did understand that you divided your
13 cross-examination, so ...
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is correct,
15 Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon or good
20 morning, Witness. I have a few questions for you. I will try to be as
21 brief as possible to save time, of course.
22 You have stated yesterday, Witness, that for a certain period of
23 time, you were an active soldier in the Sarajevo army, the government
24 army, as it was called. Do you confirm this fact?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Witness, could you tell us, when were you an active member of the
3 A. From the 28th of April, 1992. Up until mid-June 1993.
4 Q. Thank you very much for this answer. So therefore, you were
5 probably -- you had a weapon, and if so, what kind of weapon were you
7 A. It depended on the means that were available on the line.
8 Sometimes it was a hunting rifle. Other times it was a semi-automatic
10 Q. Thank you, Witness. Please tell us, did you use this weapon or
11 those weapons during the period of time during which you were an active
12 soldier or you were under the banner of this army?
13 A. Yes. Yes. While on the defence line, if we were attacked, we had
14 to respond to the fire.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer. You have also stated that
16 there were some exchanges of fire almost every day. May I deduce --
17 deduct from this answer of yours that you frequently had to use your
19 A. Not that often because it also often happened that while I was on
20 duty, while I was doing my shift, that there were no shootings.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness. And against whom were you using those weapons
22 exactly, or this weapon?
23 A. Against the enemy at that time.
24 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you confirm that each time you shot, you
25 were able to target the target? You were able to hit the target?
1 A. No, I could not confirm this. It is quite impossible.
2 Q. Thank you for this answer. Witness, as a ballistics expert, can
3 you tell us if that is the case that the ricochet phenomenon could occur,
5 A. Yes, of course.
6 Q. Thank you very much for this answer. Witness, it is, therefore,
7 absolutely possible that some lost bullets, stray bullets, could have been
8 shot by you?
9 A. It is absolutely possible.
10 Q. Thank you very much for this answer, Witness. And tell me if I'm
11 mistaken, it is also possible that such a stray bullet could have hit
12 people or persons that you were not particularly targeting?
13 A. That possibility always existed, but we were always on the lines
14 that were confronting the army and not anybody else.
15 Q. Thank you for this answer. I do thank you for this answer.
16 Witness, are you familiar with the factory called Zrak?
17 A. Yes, I know where that is.
18 Q. Witness, could you please tell us if you know, first of all, where
19 was this factory situated, and what it was producing?
20 A. Well, it is still there where it was at that time. It's Buca
21 Potok, and it was for the military purposes, used for military purposes in
22 the former Yugoslavia.
23 Q. Thank you. To be more precise, this factory produced products for
24 the military industry. Could you tell us what type, what was the
25 specialisation? This factory specialised in what precisely, if you can
1 tell us, please?
2 A. I believe it was optical devices that was serving the purposes of
3 the JNA, the former JNA, optical sights.
4 Q. Witness, you say that those products, that it was used for the JNA
5 army, whatever they were producing. Was it only used for the JNA? Were
6 they producing only for the JNA?
7 A. I really do not know what their policy was, but in the former
8 Yugoslavia, they were only making products for the former JNA.
9 Q. Thank you. I see, former Yugoslavia, yes. Mr. Witness, as of the
10 month of April 1992, who had the control of that factory, what party, what
11 belligerent party?
12 A. It was the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness. In the month of April 1992,
14 the factory, was it still operational?
15 A. I believe that it was.
16 Q. Thank you, Witness. What happened in the following month?
17 A. I really don't know.
18 Q. Thank you. Witness, this factory, was it not making targeting
19 implements destined to be placed on barrel of -- rifle barrels?
20 A. I believe that they had that programme. They were producing --
21 they were making those implements, so these optical devices that you would
22 place on a sniping rifle.
23 Q. Thank you. I now heard exactly what I had not understood clearly
24 earlier. So we are talking about rifles with sights, and that could
25 always be used, of course, by snipers?
1 A. Yes. This was part of their production programme for the former
3 Q. Mr. Witness, you just told us that in April of 1992, the factory
4 was still operational. Do you know what happened with the stocks produced
5 by this factory?
6 A. I really don't know. You would have to ask somebody who was
7 actually working at the factory.
8 Q. Well, we will try to find somebody who worked at the factory.
9 Thank you very much, Witness, for this suggestion.
10 Now, do you know if units, sniping units that existed in Sarajevo
11 on the side of the so-called government army, had those devices, those
12 optical targeting devices?
13 A. I really do not know.
14 Q. I believe you, Witness. I really do.
15 However, do you know, Witness, if those isolated units, sniping
16 units, were they within a military structure? And I am talking about the
17 so-called government army.
18 A. I really don't know this either.
19 Q. Witness, thank you very much for this answer.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Is there a problem, Mr.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I heard you thanking the witness for the question,
23 and I saw on the screen that it was translated as --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I really do thank. I have a
25 two-fold thanks to say to all the interpreters. I did not commit a lapsus
1 calami but a lapsus linguae. I just made a simple mistake in
2 pronunciation. Thank you very much for correcting me to all.
3 Q. Thank you for this answer, Witness. Later I will ask you more
4 questions with respect to the time while you were a soldier. But I would
5 now like to go on to -- pass on to another element of this
6 cross-examination. I would like to talk about the document that you
7 deciphered yesterday with a great deal of difficulty. It was the document
8 that comprised two pages, and you will remember that this Chamber did not
9 retain one portion of a paragraph because it was not legible. I believe
10 that you remember this document. Is that the case?
11 A. Yes, absolutely.
12 Q. If this answer -- thank you for this answer, Witness. Now, first
13 question: Do you speak or do you read the English language?
14 A. Yes, very well.
15 Q. Thank you very much for this answer. Witness, did you ever get
16 the chance before reading this document in Serbian to see or to hear from
17 whatever source the English translation of this report that was made by
18 the OTP?
19 A. No, I did not see the translation for that report.
20 Q. Witness, before hearing -- before actually reading the second page
21 of this report, have you had a meeting with the representatives of the
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. And during that meeting, is it possible that they have
25 in some way refreshed your memory as to the contents of this document?
1 A. Yes, they did hand me a copy of this document to read.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm just checking something on
4 the transcript, Mr. President, because my question was, was it possible
5 that the document had refreshed your memory? And your response was "yes."
6 Q. Therefore, am I correct in saying, Witness, that when you
7 deciphered -- when you managed to make out this document with certain
8 difficulty, the Defence had already refreshed your memory?
9 A. The translation that I just received is that the Defence had
10 refreshed my memory. Is that the question that you asked?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I may have misspoken, in which
12 case I apologise. But I was, of course, referring to the Prosecution.
13 A. Yes, it refreshed my memory.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this seems to
16 be my second slip, but I was saying this for the benefit of the Chamber
17 because I wanted to make sure that the reading of the document took place
18 only after witness's memory had been refreshed. I think he's having
19 problems with his screen.
20 If I may consult with my colleague for a second, please.
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'd like to put a question to the
1 witness in view of the last observation you made.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, of course.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sabljica, you have testified that the Prosecution
4 refreshed your memory, and you have testified that you received, as far as
5 I understand, in the original Serbian version the document. When you said
6 that your memory was refreshed, did you mean to say that it was refreshed
7 by receiving and rereading the document or by anything more, such as
8 discussing the document with members of the investigation or Prosecution
9 team? Could you explain to us what you understand by your memory
10 being "refreshed"?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said in order to refresh my
12 memory, I meant in order to remember the details concerning the impact
13 site, members of the team, and similar information. Because after all,
14 this took place six years ago.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But what I'd like to know is whether the
16 refreshment of your memory was limited by receiving and reading the
17 document, or that there was any further discussion on the content of the
18 document with any person.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was simply given the text in
20 the Bosnian language to read.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I apologise for saying "Serbian language." You
22 correct me and say it's the Bosnian language. We usually says "B/C/S,"
23 which is Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Concerning this issue, Mr.
1 President - this is just a digression - personally, I do not appreciate
2 the usage of the term B/C/S. It doesn't mean much. I know it is simple
3 and convenient, but it doesn't really reflect the reality. It's a
5 Q. Speaking of the refreshing of your memory, Witness, can you tell
6 us where exactly it took place? Where was it, in which office, that your
7 memory was refreshed in this manner?
8 A. It happened during my last preparations here in The Hague.
9 Q. Witness, are we talking about the day of yesterday, that is, prior
10 to your being asked questions about this particular exhibit?
11 A. No. I meant last week, when I arrived here upon invitation.
12 Q. Yes, but Witness, which language did you speak with the
13 representatives of the OTP?
14 A. English.
15 Q. You spoke in English directly, without the assistance of an
17 A. The interpreter was present, but I didn't need his or her
19 Q. Thank you very much. After you had refreshed your memory
20 concerning this incident with the representatives of the OTP, did they
21 speak about the contents of the report with you in English?
22 A. No. I simply read the document, and that was it. There was no
23 further discussion about the document.
24 Q. Thank you. Let me now move on to a different subject of a more
25 technical nature which concerns specifically the shelling of the Markale
2 Witness, you testified yesterday at one point that the crater
3 which was caused by the fall of the stabiliser, that is, the tunnel caused
4 by the tail-fin, was some 9 centimetres long. Do you remember that
6 A. It was not 9 centimetres in diameter, but the length of the tunnel
7 was 9 centimetres, together with the part of the tail-fin which was
8 embedded in the surface and the one that was sticking out that could be
10 Q. I have to look at the transcript also, but what do you mean when
11 you say damaged surface? What do you have in mind?
12 A. I am referring to the asphalt surface of the portion of the ground
13 hit by the shell.
14 Q. If I understand you correctly, Witness, you're telling us that
15 from the asphalt to the bottom of the crater, the distance is
16 approximately 9 centimetres, that is, that the depth was approximately 9
18 A. Yes, the depth was about 9 centimetres approximately, but the
19 tail-fin was still inside the crater when we did our measurements.
20 Q. So what was in total the depth of the crater?
21 A. I didn't take any measurements after the tail-fin had been
23 Q. Are you telling me that you did not take any measurements of the
24 lower portion of the crater? Am I correct?
25 A. When the UNPROFOR members took it out, took the tail-fin out, we
1 did not take any measurements of the depth of the crater.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for clarity
3 sake, we could perhaps give the witness a blank piece of paper so that he
4 can explain to us the situation more easily, with your permission, of
5 course. Thank you. And with the kind assistance of the usher.
6 Q. Witness, you have a piece of blank paper in front of you. Could
7 you draw the diagram on the ELMO so that we can all see what you're
8 doing. We can switch to the appropriate channel in order to be able to
9 follow you.
10 Witness, let me allow you to give you some instructions. I think
11 that you drew a horizontal line that represents the surface of the
12 location. Are you going to give us a cross-section of the spot?
13 Very well, thank you. So we are talking about a cross-section of
14 the location. Will you please now draw for us the crater which was 9
15 centimetres deep. Can we have a cross-section of such a crater?
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Very well. Let me now ask you to do the following: I will look
18 at the other screen so as to be able to follow you. On the horizontal
19 line that you have just drawn, to the right of the horizontal line, would
20 you please write letters "TN," which in French stands for "terrain
21 naturel," which is a term used in architecture, that is, the natural
23 Since you are a technician by profession, will you please use the
24 usual symbols, that is, the beginning of the measurement and the end of
25 the -- just a second, please. Just a second, please. Thank you.
1 On the left side of the diagram, that is, to the left of the
2 centre of your diagram, will you please use the usual technical indication
3 marks to indicate the measurements.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. We are talking about centimetres, right?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Will you please indicate that next to the number.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you very much.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My thanks to the
12 Mr. President, I don't know whether this document is going to be
13 tendered, whether we will tender it, or if you prefer that I describe it
14 for the record. We can always tender it later on.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you will tender it, of
16 course it gets a number, D number, and otherwise, how would you like me --
17 is there any necessity of describing it? Otherwise, if it's not
18 tendered, perhaps it could be marked identification. But I don't exactly
19 understand what you asked me, I'm afraid.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if there's an
21 objection from the Prosecution concerning the tendering of this document,
22 then I will describe it for the record. If as early as now we can agree
23 that the document will be admitted into evidence, then there's no need for
24 me to describe it for the record.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's clear enough for the record that the
1 witness is making, upon your instructions, sketches on a clean piece of
2 paper. But that's already in the transcript. So please proceed. I
3 didn't hear any objections until now.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
5 Q. Witness, will you please try to do the same once again, that is,
6 to indicate the same technical symbols underneath the artifact? To the
7 left, yes.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you. Very well. Thank you.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the record, having drawn a
11 cross-section of an artifact embedded in the ground, the witness has
12 indicated, to the left of the line, the distance of 9 centimetres, which
13 would indicate the superior portion of the crater, and the second one
14 which also goes to the left but bears no specific markings. The second
15 portion of the crater was never measured.
16 Q. Was that the case, Witness?
17 A. No, we didn't measure that portion. I think that it was Mr. Berko
18 Zecevic who took such measurements later on.
19 Q. Are you sure that Mr. Zecevic proceeded to that exercise, to your
21 A. No, I'm not a hundred per cent sure.
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 Still along the same lines with respect to the Markale market
24 incident --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we can perhaps
1 move the diagram from the ELMO, but we can indicate with an interrogation
2 mark the other side of the sketch because we are not aware of the
3 measurements. So I will ask the witness to mark the lower part of the
4 drawing with an interrogation mark.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. To go back to the Markale market
7 incident, another incident as well, but in particular to the Markale
8 market incident, how did you establish technical measurements with respect
9 to the topography, that is, what did you do in order to determine a point
10 of impact with respect of some fixture like a wall or a building in the
11 immediate vicinity?
12 A. With the measurement tape which is part of the normal
13 investigation kit.
14 Q. Witness, was that the only technique which was used by all
15 investigation teams, to your knowledge?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Including UNPROFOR personnel?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Witness, what is the error of margin - we have seen that there was
20 a 5 degree margin of error in one such case - in cases of this method?
21 A. Plus or minus 5 centimetres.
22 Q. Thank you very much for your answer.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at this point,
24 I should like to show this witness a document. It is D68. We will
25 check ...
1 MR. STAMP: I was just wondering about the record or the
2 transcript I have here, the answer to the last question, plus or minus 5
3 centimetres. I'm wondering if perhaps we could check the translation.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's useful to check it, because the answer
5 in the French version was a bit different. It was something, but it's
6 just my recollection, plus or minus 5 degrees, but then in centimetres.
7 So I heard the word "centimetres" in French, but also "degree." So
8 perhaps we'll have to check that, or perhaps ask for a clarification to
9 the witness right away. If you could please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. It may have been a slip
11 not made by the Defence.
12 Q. Witness, I have to ask you to rephrase your answer, or rather to
13 repeat your answer. Didn't you say plus or minus 5 centimetres?
14 A. That is correct, because we're talking about the distance between
15 the crater and the familiar objects in the vicinity which is measured with
16 a measuring tape, and it is expressed in centimetres.
17 Q. So we are talking about the same figure, Witness. Thank you very
18 much for this clarification.
19 Do you remember, Mr. Sabljica, in your report, what the distance
20 was between the impact point and the wall which was closest to it, to the
21 impact point?
22 A. The closest object was the nearby shop which was located at a
23 distance of 4 metres and 16 centimetres.
24 Q. You really have a technician's memory. These are indeed the
25 numbers that we heard yesterday. And now I'm going to show you a document
1 who, according to our new stamp, is D68.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can this document please be
3 submitted to the witness.
4 Let us perhaps wait a moment before we show the document to the
5 witness. Mr. President, there seems to be a problem or ... ?
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... to avoid
7 whatever misunderstanding that perhaps the witness already awaiting,
8 whether you'll tender the document or not, already put his initials on the
9 document. Otherwise someone might think that it was drawn by Mr. TN.
10 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's my omission,
12 Mr. President. Mr. Terra Naturale is, of course, not present. My
14 Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please ask the witness to -- it's already on
16 the -- I see that the initials are on the bottom right-hand corner.
17 Yes, please proceed.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
19 Mr. President.
20 Q. Witness, if, however, an error in the positioning of the point of
21 impact was committed, would that logically speaking have consequences on
22 any relevant conclusion contained in the ballistics report?
23 A. Since the margin of error is very low, plus or minus 5
24 centimetres, I don't think that it would have seriously affected the
1 Q. Witness, if, however, this margin of error was significantly
2 higher, is it possible that the results of the investigation would have
3 been significantly different?
4 A. If we are talking about metres, then yes, such a mistake would
5 have significantly affected the conclusions.
6 Q. Witness, to your knowledge and to the best of your recollection,
7 what was the distance which was measured by your team or yourself between
8 a point of impact and the building which is referred to as the 22nd
9 December building?
10 A. I believe the distance was 11.6 metres, that is 11 metres and 60
12 Q. Yes, indeed. These figures are on the exhibits that have been
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I should now like to have the
15 witness shown D68.
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... D69.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you would like to show a document to the witness
20 which would be D68. And I think for that reason, Madam Registrar gave the
21 sketch already D69. So that's what I understood.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, I'm sorry,
24 but there seems to be a confusion. The exhibit which we intend to produce
25 now, it's a new exhibit. It's a diagram but not a diagram made by the
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as indicated before, that would be D68. And for
3 that reason, the registrar gave the sketch just drawn by the witness D69
4 in order to avoid whatever confusion.
5 So Mr. Usher, would you then --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're quite right,
7 Mr. President. We will renumber our document now.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any reason? Did it have anything --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Actually,
10 we have pre-marked other exhibits with D68, so we will continue the same
11 numbers, or maybe the registrar could assign D69 to this diagram so that
12 the documents that we have pre-marked are not altered.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you just now would hand over the document that you
14 would like to show the witness to the usher, then we will see how it is
15 pre-marked and we will find a solution.
16 Mr. Usher.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much in
18 advance. For the record, Mr. President, let me indicate that this diagram
19 bears an ERN number, 0026-409, and that it has been disclosed by the
20 Prosecution. It is actually an investigation record compiled by I don't
21 know whom. But it is a work product by UNPROFOR, D68.
22 Q. Witness, do you have in front of you the document which we see on
23 the ELMO?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Witness, do you see somewhere to the right side of the place which
1 is represented by a very large square?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Will you please read the numbers concerning the large shop which
4 are expressed in metres on this document. The first one which indicates
5 the big shop on the left-hand side.
6 A. 6 metres.
7 Q. Will you please remind us what your measurements were regarding
8 this impact site?
9 A. 4.16 metres.
10 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. As for the other side, that is, the
11 facade of the 22nd December building, that is the large building, for the
12 record, which we can see on the right-hand side of the picture and which
13 is higher than the one in front of it, what is the distance that you can
14 see on this diagram?
15 A. 8 metres.
16 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. What was the distance that you
17 indicated in your report?
18 A. 11.60.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, what is the height of the building
20 that you can see here on the diagram, that is, the 22nd December building?
21 A. According to this diagram, 20 metres.
22 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. A moment ago, you told us that if
23 the margin of error was expressed in metres, that that would affect the
24 findings of your investigation. Can you confirm that once again?
25 A. Yes, I can. I do confirm that.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no further question
2 with respect to this document. This document can be removed. The witness
3 is not the author of this diagram. Unless you have any questions, Mr.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have one question. Perhaps we could put this
6 diagram again, that's D68, on the ELMO.
7 You asked, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, "Will you please read the numbers
8 concerning the large shop which are expressed in metres on this document,
9 the first one which indicates the high shop on the left-hand side." And
10 then the witness's answer was "6 metres." Then your next question
11 was: "Will you please remind us what your measurements were regarding this
12 impact site?" Which is not a very precise question. And you, Mr.
13 Sabljica, you answered, "4 metres, 16 centimetres."
14 It is my recollection that the distance of 4 metres, 16
15 centimetres, was the distance from the impact up to the shop building.
16 Were you referring to that distance when you answered the question of
17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: When you were reading the indication on this
20 indicating 6 metres, was that the distance between the impact and the
21 building or is it the height of the building?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the distance between the
23 impact point and the building, as we can see here on this diagram.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that is not the left part of the shop
25 building but the right part of the shop building. Is that true? Because
1 the question referred to the left part of the building, which also
2 indicates -- yes, we have now ...
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm terribly
4 sorry. I do apologise. I believe what I said in French is the following:
5 The left side of the buildings that are shown. With respect to the right
6 side, which is the 22nd December building, this is what I meant. That's
7 what I meant when I said "the left side of the buildings." In the
8 diagram, in fact, that we're talking about, it's on the right-hand side of
9 the building situated to the left.
10 Do we agree on this?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it has become quite clear to me now. You have
12 seen, perhaps, that the left part of the building, there is also an
13 indication of 6 metres, but that's different. So you are talking about
14 the left building, but the right-hand side, the distance. It's clear to
15 me. Thank you for assisting me in better comprehension of the testimony
16 of the witness.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with pleasure
19 will I proceed, but I need the authorisation of interpreters, because I'm
20 in some way between their kind hands. We do not have any transcript --
21 but I can see it did come back. I have just been told that the transcript
22 came back. May I know if the transcript is back in all the booths?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, for the English transcript.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So I will then go on.
25 Q. Witness, thank you for answering these questions. You have told
1 us a moment ago that your memory was refreshed in sorts. I will now
2 submit to you a document, and I would like you to tell us if the two first
3 pages of the said document were either written by yourself or, according
4 to the instructions that you had given to someone, by someone else. I
5 believe this is document D70. And Mr. Witness, I would like you to look
6 at the first two pages only of this document.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since we have
8 placed these pages in the right order - we hope that we have stapled them
9 in the right order - it will not be possible to have the whole document on
10 the screen. So we will have to proceed step by step.
11 Mr. Usher, would you be kind enough to place the first page of
12 this document on the screen, the first page bearing the marking D70. Thank
14 Q. And at the same time, as we are looking at this document,
15 Mr. Witness, would you please take the second page, place it on the ELMO
16 for just a few seconds, and then we will go back to the first page.
17 Very well. We now see that it is the second page following the
18 first page. It's a complementary page, and I would like you to go back to
19 the first page. [In English] And put it on the ELMO, thanks.
20 [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 Witness, would you please tell us if you recognise this document,
22 or do you know of the existence of this document?
23 A. No, I see this document for the first time.
24 Q. This document was never shown to you at any point in time during
25 no expertise?
1 A. [No audible response]
2 Q. I see. So Witness, do you see before you on this first page a
3 sketch representing on the right-hand side the building bearing the name
4 22nd of December, but we can only read the last word, "December," and that
5 to the left, do you see the second building closing off that square? In
6 other words, is this a sketch, or is this a diagram of the Markale square?
7 A. This seems to resemble the diagram of the Markale market.
8 Q. Thank you for this answer. Would you please focus on the very
9 small squares that we see at the centre of the picture. That is, on the
10 space of the square itself, do you see those square boxes -- those
11 rectangular boxes?
12 A. Yes, I do see them.
13 Q. Witness, tell us if you can, according to your knowledge of the
14 scene, what would those small rectangles represent, aligned in such a
16 A. The stalls of the market.
17 Q. Witness, according to your memory, the way the stalls are
18 represented here, does this correspond to reality, the reality such as it
19 was then on that market?
20 A. Yes, it seems to be represented in a very faithful fashion.
21 Q. Thank you very much for this answer.
22 Witness, can you tell us if every time we see a line or a row, do
23 you mean that this is the row of stalls, the way they were at the time?
24 They were all close together, in twos?
25 A. I believe that this was the case, yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Witness, thank you very much. Would you be kind enough as to
2 count for us the number of rows that we can see on this square? Would you
3 please do it on the screen so that I can follow you as well.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is counting.
5 A. There are 18 rows.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the
9 transcript, I must say that we are talking about the second and the first
10 page, so now I would like -- this document is comprised of two pages. So
11 I would like the usher to put page number 2 on the ELMO. Please go back
12 to page number 2 so that we can see the extension of this first page.
13 We can see the ERN number, 0026-8362 on this page. This is
14 therefore the second page following the first page. The first page bears
15 an illegible ERN number, but this is a document which goes together.
16 Q. So Witness, could you please tell us what does this word mean?
17 There is a word at the centre of this picture, to the right.
18 A. Shop. Samo Posluga.
19 Q. Witness, we are talking about the supermarket that we have seen
20 earlier on the previous diagram. Is that so?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Could you please confirm to us so that we are totally
23 clear, that the arrow that is showing "S" means the north, or does "S"
24 stand for "sjever," north?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very
2 much. I did this because with this document we have annexed a third page.
3 It is a page that we have also received from the Prosecution. It may be
4 seen the other way around. It's not really very important, but this is
5 the document bearing the number 0026-8326. And I would like to ask the
6 witness at this point to be so kind enough as to count the rows, the
7 stalls, the stall rows that he sees on the square.
8 Q. Witness, could you tell us how many stall rows were you able to
9 count on this square?
10 A. Seven horizontal and one vertical, if we look at this picture from
11 the position which I am in.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 Witness, could you just please tell us if this is a diagram
14 depicting the Markale square and where is, therefore, the Marsal Tito
15 Street with respect to this square? Would you please show it to us?
16 To your right?
17 A. This is a diagram, yes. And this is Marsal Tito Street.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the
20 witness showed with the pointer the horizontal lines that were located
21 above the number ERN, and these lines close off the square.
22 Thank you very much, Witness. I will not need this document any
23 more. But for the transcript, Mr. President, I would just like to
24 indicate that this was a document that was already submitted to your
25 Chamber. While we heard the previous witness -- I will not mention the
1 previous witness's name. It's for discretionary reasons, of course, but
2 you will know who this witness was, I'm sure.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness. Please, now we are going to show you a
4 videoclip. I have two cassettes in my possession. And I would like you,
5 Witness, now more than ever to ask the kind assistance of the
6 interpreters. Why, because the cassette that we are going to see, the
7 videoclip, is in the Serbian language. I think it is quite difficult to
8 hear the conversations. But I do thank the interpreters in advance. I
9 know that their ear is very sharp, and I would kindly ask them to
10 concentrate and focus on each word, and this is why I'm going to ask them
11 to do the interpretation.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will hand now these
13 videocassettes to the usher.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the interpreters wish to point out
15 that we do not do any interpretation of videotape without transcript as a
16 matter of principle.
17 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No Interpretation]
20 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I don't know whether you want to respond
23 to the request of Mr. Piletta-Zanin or whether there's anything else.
24 MR. STAMP: Two things: As a matter of practice, what we heard
25 from the interpreters' booth, to my understanding, is correct. A
1 transcript ought to be provided if we're going to refer to words on a
2 tape. Second matter of practice, if a video and audiotape is going to be
3 shown, it is normally given to the other side to examine before it is
4 brought to Court.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the
6 videotape that you're going to play one that comes from the Prosecution?
7 So it is a replay of what we have seen before, or is it a ... ?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, last time we
9 had this confusion, but unless I'm mistaken, this videocassette was
10 provided to us by the Prosecution. I asked the case manager to give me a
11 clearer copy. She was not able to do so unfortunately, so we've only
12 copied some clips. We didn't want to waste any time by showing the whole
13 videoclip that we have seen already. But these are excerpts from the
14 V000-3274, copy number 4, video.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me be very practical at this very moment,
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. First of all, the interpreters are not able to
17 translate any text spoken on a videotape if not -- if there's no
18 transcript made available to them of what has been said. That would go
19 beyond what they are supposed to do as interpreters, and that's what they
20 object to.
21 So if you would like to have parts of what has been said on a
22 videotape be translated, you first have to provide the booth with a
23 transcript. That's number 1.
24 Number 2, I do understand that you made a new, as one would say in
25 French, perhaps collage of parts that we have seen before. I think it
1 will be fair -- you are nodding no. Please explain, if it's not a new
2 compilation of videopictures we saw before, what exactly what it is.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no. Well, we
4 have a problem -- two problems. The first one is resolved. Now, with
5 your permission, we will see this videocassette and we will ask the
6 witness to tell us what is it that he heard. He will then be able to say
7 it out loud if he heard in his own language. And then if we have heard
8 it, I suppose that the witness can hear it, and then the interpreters may
9 interpret what the witness had said. I think that this clarifies this
11 Now, the second thing, the excerpt in question was not seen -- the
12 Chamber has not seen this excerpt. We have received many cassettes,
13 videocassettes. This one is one of them. This is not a collage. This is
14 not an edited version, it's an excerpt, but it has not been seen by the
15 Chamber yet.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps since we'll have a break anyhow, and since I
17 expect Mr. Ierace to be in the Court, I thought at 20 minutes past 12.00,
18 so that before the next break we would have 10 minutes to explain to the
19 Court what he had -- what he wished to explain to the Court, then I would
20 suggest that during the break the Prosecution first views, if possible,
21 this tape so that they can see whether they recognise it, whether they
22 know what it is, and then see whether there's any objection against
23 playing it.
24 But is there any information as far as Mr. Ierace is concerned?
25 Because I would have expected him to be here five minutes ago.
1 MR. STAMP: Yes, I would imagine that he's on his way, but I have
2 no new information to advise the Court on.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Mr. Ierace wanted to give his information.
4 I would say let's just save the tape for after the break, and let's see
5 what communication in 20 minutes could do. I know it's not a use of the
6 break which everyone would prefer, but nevertheless let's see whether we
7 can solve the problem during the break.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one short
9 comment. Very well, but I would not like to be placed in a situation
10 where, since I said yesterday that unfortunately I will not be able to be
11 here tomorrow, and this is the reason why Mr. Ierace wanted to make his
12 comment today, I didn't want the Defence to be handicapped in the
13 presentation of its case. I mean, unfortunately, Mr. Ierace is late, and
14 I did not want the Defence to suffer from this, because we are not
15 responsible for the occurrence of this.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I'll take care the Defence will not suffer.
17 Mr. Ierace, we have all been waiting for you. Seeing you enter
18 the courtroom is a great pleasure for all of us.
19 Mr. Sabljica, your cross-examination will be resumed after the
20 break, but we'll first hear, for five or ten minutes, other things. So
21 could the booth please take care that Mr. Sabljica is not on the picture
22 when he's escorted out of the courtroom. Yes, please.
23 Mr. Ierace, could you be as brief as possible. As you know, we
24 usually have the break at half past 12.00, and we only have three minutes
1 MR. IERACE: I apologise for that, Mr. President. In relation to
2 the orders, in particular the specific questions that you posed on
3 Tuesday, we may have documents in our possession which fall under those
4 two categories, in part because various parts of the OTP are constantly
5 receiving material. The search that will take place on the 25th of March
6 will cover most of that material, and by early April we will be able to
7 inform the Defence of any further relevant material that we have by way of
8 orders that come under those two descriptions that you gave on Tuesday.
9 Last night, at 20 to 11.00, the Defence faxed to the Prosecution a
10 further request for orders and documentation of the army of Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina. This request included documentation that refers to the
12 formation of that army, and the acting and planning of military actions of
13 the general staff of the army. Mr. President, I do not intend to disclose
14 material that we have, if any, in relation to the formation of the army
15 because it is not within Rule 66 of the Tribunal. In other words, it's
16 not, as far as I can see, material to the Defence. But I wish to make
17 this more fundamental point: I informed the Trial Chamber that there was
18 a mission to the -- which gave us access to the archives of the army early
19 last year. And that yielded many hundreds of documents, all of which have
20 been disclosed to the Defence in the form of an index, and the Defence
21 were invited to nominate which documents they wanted, and they were
23 Mr. President, that archive consisted of hundreds of thousands of
24 documents which related to the 1st Corps. The mission confined itself to
25 documents which related to the particular brigades in the areas of the
1 scheduled incidents. That alone took six staff members of the OTP ten
2 days. Any exculpatory material which was found during that search was
3 included in the index provided to the Defence. So it is physically
4 impossible for the Prosecution to go back and search through hundreds of
5 thousands of documents and to make those indeed available to the Defence,
6 which is the terms of its present request. That is not the job of the
7 Prosecution. The Defence can make its own approach if it thinks it
8 appropriate to the relevant authorities and seek access to those
9 archives. So Mr. President, in short, in order to -- for the OTP to be
10 satisfied that no further documents have come into its possession which
11 are material to the Defence, we are undertaking a further search, and
12 we'll have the results of that by early April.
13 In relation to the shrapnel, I understand my friend raised that
14 issue again this morning. On Tuesday, I said I would report back next
15 week, but I can do so now. A written request was made by the OTP on the
16 28th of August of last year for the shrapnel in relation to the Markale
17 incident on the 5th of February, 1994. We were advised by the relevant
18 authorities that they no longer had the shrapnel. There is nothing more
19 that we can do to locate the shrapnel. We have approached the relevant
20 authorities; they no longer have it. And as far as the OTP is concerned,
21 that is the end of the matter in terms of searching for those pieces.
22 The reason the approach was made then was this: It followed on
23 some earlier approaches made mid-last year, and that was in pursuance of a
24 general policy that artifacts remain within the possession of the Bosnian
25 government authorities until such time as they are required for the
1 trial. Given the trial timetable, we thought it appropriate in mid-2001
2 to secure the relevant artifacts.
3 Mr. President, the only other issue that I would seek to raise
4 very briefly is Robert Donia. I notice that the Defence has filed some
5 material this morning in relation to experts saying that they speak 20
6 days' notice before the calling of experts. The Defence -- the
7 Prosecution, rather, proposes to call Robert Donia at some point on or
8 after the 22nd of April, and of course that is well in excess of 20 days'
9 notice. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace, for your information.
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when we come
13 back after the break, I would like to address the Court with two issues.
14 There are some things that cannot be left up in the air, but of course
15 everybody has the right to a break. So I will, with your leave, address
16 the Court after the break with two issues.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether it will be done right after the break
18 or just at the end of the morning session, we'll decide that. You see,
19 one of the advantages is that if there's limited time, it's our experience
20 that things usually are dealt with in a more efficient way.
21 We'll now have a break until 5 minutes to 1.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for giving me the
1 floor, Mr. President. I think we have reasons for optimism because the
2 parties have just reached an agreement. We will try to finish the
3 examination of the witness, and Mr. Ierace and myself have reached the
4 conclusion that, with the Court's permission, we can respond to this
5 intervention on Monday later, after the morning session, once we have
6 viewed the hearings.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we'll hear, then, from you on Monday. That
8 also means that we could now continue the cross-examination of the
10 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the meantime, two tapes
12 have been provided to the Prosecution. They have not made any protest so
13 far. I don't know whether Mr. Ierace is raising in order to object -- no.
14 It seems that he is leaving. I knew it.
15 May we please now give these tapes to the booth.
16 Mr. Stamp is on his feet.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I noticed that. Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: We received two tapes from the Defence, and we did
19 what we could in the time allowed to have a look at them. The tape which
20 I believe my friend proposes to hand to the booth to be played has
21 material on it which I cannot conceive of it bearing any relevance to this
22 case and is not in either of the tapes which have been played before or
23 produced in Court.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So you say you object at least partially to the
25 relevance. Let's -- could you indicate when we come to those points and
1 when we have perhaps entered in those areas, because if you say, "now
2 comes the part of the tape which is irrelevant," of course we have got no
3 idea what will then come. And if there's any general remark, Mr.
4 Piletta-Zanin is aware of the points which you think the tape is
6 MR. STAMP: I haven't had an opportunity.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that 20 minutes is not much time.
8 Let's just proceed, I would say, and if you indicate whenever we come to a
9 point. And sometimes, even if a small part of the tape would not be that
10 relevant but would not harm the case of the Prosecution -- I know that 45
11 seconds irrelevant material, although it should not be there, under
12 circumstances might to be preferred above 5 minutes of discussion on
13 relevance of the 45 seconds.
14 MR. STAMP: Indeed. In the interests of time, we could proceed,
15 though the second thing I wish to add is we did not have time to compare
16 what we got with our originals. But we could proceed in the interests of
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Could we have a number for the tape, please.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The tape is with Mr. Usher.
22 It has not been marked with a number yet, but I think that the number
23 would be 72. We already have 71. 7-2. Thank you.
24 Let me indicate, Mr. President, that I have not had the
25 opportunity of viewing the tape which has been handed over to me by the
1 relevant authorities, but I know that it is an excerpt of a tape which was
2 provided to us by the Prosecution and that the tape is familiar to the
3 Prosecution because that's where it originates from.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, unless you come up with another
5 D71, the last one we have is D70, which is the three-page well-stapled
6 sketch, two different sketches, of what the witness testified is the
7 Markale market. So if it's D71 -- you're nodding. That means that the
8 tape will be D71?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The document -- the one that
10 we are tendering is D71. But they have been premarked, these documents.
11 That is why the tape is going to be 72. We have an image on the screen
12 now, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But before we view the tape,
15 and I will give the instructions in English, I should like to ask the
16 witness that he listens carefully to the words spoken on the tape.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we now view the tape,
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Do we have any problem with the
22 tape recorder?
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we stop here, please.
25 Thank you.
1 Q. Witness, you have just heard a passage on this tape. I think it
2 was perfectly audible. I hope you have heard the words yourself, or maybe
3 do you wish to have the tape replayed?
4 A. No, thank you, I have heard the text.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what you have just heard, the words
6 that you have just heard spoken by an individual on this tape?
7 A. "Please have a look at the roof, the tail-fin may be there."
8 Q. That is precisely what was said on the tape. Thank you very much
9 for the quality of that quote, Witness. So at the time they were
10 initially inspecting the scene, the investigators were wondering whether
11 the stabiliser or the tail-fin could be found on the roof. Is that
12 correct? Is that the meaning of the passage that we have just heard?
13 A. Yes, and I know whose voice it is.
14 Q. Can you tell us who the owner of the voice is?
15 A. The voice comes from Sead Besic, the crime technician.
16 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, when we hear this reference to the
17 roof, is it the roof of the 22nd December building? Is that the roof in
19 A. I don't know that.
20 Q. Witness, why would a tail-fin end up on a roof? Why would it be
21 found on a nearby roof?
22 A. I don't know why Mr. Besic said that, since we later found the
23 stabiliser in the centre of the crater.
24 Q. It is a crucial element, and words were spoken to the effect that
25 it can be found on the roof. Don't you find it strange that such an
1 important item can be found on the roof?
2 A. I was not standing near the camera when he was speaking. It's
3 just that I recognised his voice only now from the tape.
4 Q. Thank you. No further questions regarding this tape.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have another tape that I
6 would like to have the witness view, just a very brief passage. Can we
7 see the same passage again for a few seconds, please.
8 For the transcript, the tape that we have just seen concerns the
9 Markale market incident, the time being the time of the inspection of the
10 surrounding area of the crater.
11 Q. Can you confirm that, Witness?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The next tape will, of course,
15 be 73, number 73. I indicate this to Madam Registrar.
16 I don't know if we have the image on the screen yet, whether the
17 technicians are ready. We will proceed pursuant to their orders.
18 I don't have an image on my screen.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just wait, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 If there are any technical problems from the booth, I'd like to
21 know. Otherwise, we'll just wait.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: I am informed that it takes some time to change the
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No problem, Mr. President.
1 Meanwhile, let us take the opportunity of the availability of Mr. Usher,
2 who will please help us distribute this document, D71, to the witness. We
3 will save time by proceeding in this manner.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, while we wait
6 for the technical problems to be resolved --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Wait for one second to provide it to the witness. If
8 the --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I can perfectly see the
12 image on the screen now. We can move on.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the counsel because
15 of the tape.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No Interpretation]
17 THE INTERPRETER: We don't hear the counsel at all.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do not think that the interpreters are able to -- can
20 translate you and at the same time there's a lot of noise for us also to
21 understand --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to give any instructions to the witness,
24 please do it prior to playing the tape.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies, Mr. President. I
1 thought it was possible. I just wanted to save time.
2 Q. Witness, simply the following: Would you please pay attention to
3 two things regarding the next tape, and that is the position of the arrows
4 on the surface with respect to the surrounding buildings and also the
5 location of the 22nd December building with respect to the road which is
6 on the opposite side of Marsal Tito Street.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we continue with the
8 viewing, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Have the cassette replayed.
10 [Videotape played]
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we stop here, please.
12 Q. Witness, as regards this image, can you confirm that the central
13 crater is covered with debris?
14 A. You mean this yellow material, yellow traces that we see?
15 Q. I mean specifically what is in the centre of the image at the
16 bottom of the image, slightly above the white pole which is positioned
17 diagonally in this image. Can you confirm that in the centre, bottom
18 centre, of this image, we can see the crater?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Can you also confirm that the crater is completely
21 covered with debris and soil?
22 A. No, I cannot. It doesn't seem to be covered to me.
23 Q. Witness, do you see here a hole or not?
24 A. Yes, I can see a hole at the very bottom of the image next to the
25 white tape.
1 Q. Very well. Witness, as regards this surrounding area, the one
2 which is bordered with white chalk, was this area cleared, was it cleaned
4 A. There are certain traces left. There is still some soil or sand
5 on it.
6 Q. Can you indicate for us the tail-fin on this image? Can you give
7 us an objective assessment of this?
8 A. Objectively speaking, I don't see it at all.
9 Q. Very well. Can you read the date indicated on this image? It
10 should be found in the bottom left corner of the picture.
11 A. Yes, I can. February the 6th --
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we have difficulties in following
14 your questions on the centre of the image where there's supposed to be a
15 hole because it's just beyond our screen where one would expect the centre
16 of what might be a crater is. Could you, please, either by moving forward
17 or backwards, give us a better image --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We can
19 perhaps ask the technicians to go back a little bit. But -- to zoom back
20 a little bit, but I think that the orifice or the hole that I was talking
21 about is perfectly visible.
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a little more to the
24 back, please.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think this will do, thank
3 Mr. President, I think that the hole we mentioned now is now more
4 visible. I don't know whether it is visible for you. It depends, of
5 course, on the quality of this image.
6 Q. Witness, one last question for the sake of clarity: The orifice
7 at the bottom part of the crater was not measured, that is, the area which
8 is underneath the black area which is in the bottom of the image that we
9 can now see on the screen. Was that the case?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me ask the technicians to
13 speed up a little bit so that we can proceed with further questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Moving forwards?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Yes, of course. Will you please
16 do that?
17 [Interpretation] Can we fast forward, please. [In English] Could
18 you please accelerate the speed? [Interpretation] Because I'm not sure
19 that everything was reproduced on the tape. Can we stop here. Thank
21 Can we now have the normal speed, please.
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. It goes on.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. This is the end of
1 the tape.
2 Q. Witness, we were able to distinguish the arrows which were drawn
3 on the surface, on the ground, that is. Is it true -- just a second,
5 These arrows slightly point towards the 22nd December building.
6 Was that the case, according to your recollection?
7 A. According to my recollection and in view of what I have just seen,
9 Q. Thank you. Witness, we have just viewed this tape. It is going
10 to be tendered into evidence. Can you now tell us whether the 22nd
11 December building extends all the way to the street which is situated
12 opposite Marshal Tito Street, that is, on the other edge of the market
13 where we were able to see an alley, to your knowledge?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no
16 further questions regarding these tapes, but I do have a few questions
17 regarding this witness's military activity, or actually military
19 Q. Witness, could you tell us if there is a technique difference in
20 what we call in military art unfortunately a shell and a mine? Do you
21 know what the difference between the two is?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Very briefly, Witness, would you be able to point out the
24 difference to us?
25 A. According to what I know, mines are devices that can destroy the
1 enemy lines. It's these explosives. Whereas shells are projectiles that
2 are fired, and it's artillery projectiles.
3 Q. Excuse me, Witness, you lived through the war. What was going on
4 during the fighting in respect to fuel? How was the army able to obtain
5 fuel supplies?
6 A. Believe me, I really do not know what the case was for the army,
7 but I do know what was going on in the police when we had to move and go
8 to on-site investigations.
9 Q. So therefore, could you tell us how is it that the police was able
10 to get fuel?
11 A. There was a logistics service of the MUP, and they were in charge
12 of this. So we would receive one litre per investigation for a car.
13 Q. Witness, the reason being that fuel was not regularly available on
14 the open market. Is that the right reason?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 Witness, with respect to that period in which the war took place,
18 is it possible that some vehicles, to your knowledge, civilian vehicles,
19 would also be used by the army?
20 A. Yes, but in that case, they had particular stickers that would
21 identify them as being members of the army. They were not painted in a
22 camouflage manner, but they bore certain distinction signs, emblems.
23 Q. Thank you. What were those stickers, briefly?
24 A. The former emblem of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was four -- it
25 was the coat of arms, the fleur-de-lys.
1 Q. And since the Chamber may ask you about the size of these emblems,
2 can you tell us what was the size of these emblems, of these stickers, to
3 your recollection, according to your recollection, to the best of your
5 A. Well, I would say 30 by 40 centimetres on the hood and also on the
6 doors of the vehicle.
7 Q. Thank you. Witness, have you heard of the existence of a mobile
8 unit that was -- that had small mortars that were attached to civilian
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you for this answer. And lastly, Witness, to the best of
12 your recollection, what would be, if you can tell us, the definition of
13 what we call a sniper?
14 A. I really don't know.
15 Q. Thank you. Witness, and I would have one last question for you,
16 and I will ask you this question because you do read English. I would
17 like to submit to the witness D71. You will receive this document from
18 the usher in a few moments, and on this document, which is a two-page
19 document, you will see under (a), under Item (a) for the date of the 22nd
20 of January, 1994.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is the Annex
22 number 6 of the final report of the UNPROFOR, and I would like the witness
23 to read, if he is able to do so, the first paragraph that the witness has
24 before him. And would you please place this on the ELMO, please. On the
25 ELMO, so that everybody can follow.
1 Thank you, Mr. Usher.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do I understand you well that you
3 are referring to Annex 6 to the report of the committee of experts?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that is the
5 case. It is the same series of document, Annex 6, that is so, page seven
6 hundred and -- my copy is quite illegible. 768 and 769.
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Q. Sir, would you please read what appears under Item 22 for the 21st
10 of January, 1994, under item (a), the first paragraph? Could you please
11 read this.
12 A. Yes, under military activity?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. [In English] Combat and shelling activity: UNPROFOR reported that
15 during the day, 40 SL were fired by Bosnian Serb forces, while 3 were
16 fired by BH forces. 42 source, Agence France Presse.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness. One word is illegible, and that is not your
18 fault, of course, and you can't do anything about it. Maybe we can read
19 s-h-o-t. I'm just extrapolating here, but I believe that the meaning is
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. There are no
22 further questions. Mr. President, this puts an end to the
23 cross-examination of this witness, and we thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 May I just indicate - I have not checked it - but "shells" also
1 start with SH. So I don't know whether we can immediately follow you that
2 it should be read "shot."
3 Is there any need to re-examine the witness, Mr. Stamp?
4 MR. STAMP: Just a couple in clarification.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
6 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:
7 Q. Could you have a look at some of these documents that were shown
8 to you by my learned friend. First, the one marked Defence Exhibit 68.
9 Have you ever seen that document before today?
10 A. No. I saw this document for the first time today.
11 Q. Thank you. Could you have a look at the one marked D70. The
12 diagrams in that -- on the pages of that document, did you prepare those
14 A. No.
15 Q. You gave some distances from your memory in respect to the
16 measurements at the Markale incident in answer to my learned friend.
17 Would you be able to say that the measurements which you took and which
18 are a part of the document which you created yourself, are they accurate
19 measurements in respect to that place?
20 A. Yes, and I can confirm it with certainty.
21 MR. STAMP: Could the witness have a look at P2307. I beg your
22 pardon, P2309. I'm so sorry. Thanks, madam.
23 While the registrar is finding it, may I just indicate that in the
24 course -- remind the Court, in the course of the testimony, there had been
25 some problems with legibility of a part of a document, and we had brought
1 the original which turned out to be legible. I would like to distribute
2 to the Court and to my learned friends copies of the original which are
3 more legible.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Good copies of the original.
5 MR. STAMP: Good copies of the original.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just finished
7 the cross-examination. May I ask Mr. Stamp if he found these documents in
8 the last 10 seconds or if he was in possession of these documents while I
9 was cross-examining? I believe that there is a loyalty question, one has
10 to be loyal with regards to debates and fair, and I believe this is at
11 least the least we can do.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the document that has been
13 distributed now by Mr. Stamp was not legible solely, I would say, on the
14 agenda under number 3, which in the original we all have seen was about
15 market stalls. I think there is nothing else more legible on this
16 document than on the earlier copy of it.
17 So please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
18 THE REGISTRAR: This is Document P2309A?
19 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm really terribly sorry, but
23 could we also get a copy to make sure? We would like to see that sentence
25 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. I expect you to get a copy as well.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But we do not have it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. I'll give you my copy just for a
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Terribly sorry, sincerely.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
6 MR. STAMP: For the record, in front of the witness is Exhibit
7 P2309, which I believe my friends have in their possession. And that is
8 what I'm asking the witness about. 9A, 2309A.
9 Q. Could you look at the penultimate page of this -- sorry, could you
10 look at the page with the number 0026-8360 where you have drawn a
11 diagram. The building numbered 5 on your diagram is the 22nd of December
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, you were shown a video during cross-examination in which --
15 and you were asked about the arrow which was pointing towards the 27th of
16 December building -- 22nd of December building, yes. Now, is the arrow
17 that you saw in that video consistent with what you have in your diagram?
18 A. That is that arrow.
19 Q. Were you present at the investigation of the 6th of February?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You said in answer to my learned friend that Sead Besic had
22 indicated that perhaps you could -- one could look at the roof to find the
24 A. Yes. That's what he said. That's what we heard on the tape.
25 Q. Yes. When you came to the scene, the impact scene, at Markale,
1 was it immediately apparent to you that the stabiliser was embedded in the
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know what was the situation in respect to Mr. Besic? Do
5 you know if Mr. Besic immediately was able to determine whether or not the
6 stabiliser was buried in the ground?
7 A. According to him and his knowledge, no.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 Now, you said the crater was 9 centimetres deep, that is 9
10 centimetres from the top of the asphalt.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, is there a distinction between a crater and a tunnel that
13 might be created by a stabiliser fin if it embeds itself in the ground?
14 A. Are you talking about a softer surface?
15 Q. A surface such as the one at Markale.
16 A. The stabiliser was found at the centre of the crater at a depth of
17 9 centimetres from the asphalt surface.
18 Q. Now, that 9 centimetres which you speak of, does that 9
19 centimetres include the depth to which the stabiliser had embedded itself
20 in the ground?
21 A. No. That is the depth from the top of the asphalt up until the
22 last part of the stabiliser.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I have nothing
25 further of this witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
2 May I just ask the interpreters booth, if there would be one or
3 more, two questions of the Judges, whether we could continue for a couple
4 of minutes.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your cooperation.
7 Judge El Mahdi has a question or several questions for you.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Questioned by the Court:
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, please tell me the
11 following: Can you tell me what went on during the on-site investigation
12 that you carried out regarding the Markale market incident. My first
13 question relates to what you have said regarding Mr. Besic. You said that
14 he, himself, had cleaned up the site. Did he carry out this cleaning up
15 before or after you were able to determine the direction from which the
16 shell was fired? Because if I understood you correctly, it was very
17 important, in order to determine the trajectory, to be able to examine the
18 debris to see where -- how scattered they are and at what distance they
19 are from the point of impact. So if I understood correctly, he proceeded
20 to the cleaning up of the site, but was this before or after attempting to
21 try to determine the origin of fire and the direction from which the
22 projectile landed?
23 A. Mr. Besic proceeded to clean up the site of the artillery shell
24 fall after only we established the parameters because the traces were very
25 clear, very clean. And after we've established that the tail-fin was
1 embedded in the crater and was at the centre of the explosion, Mr. Besic
2 then proceeded to clean up more in detail the site in order to wait for
3 the UNPROFOR team, who then delodged or extracted the tail-fin. This is
4 why I mentioned that Mr. Besic proceeded to the cleaning up of the site.
5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And one short
6 question: I'm just wondering here, you stated - and I will actually quote
7 you in English - "... with the stabiliser which was lodged while awaiting
8 the arrival of the UNPROFOR members." [Interpretation] How can you
9 explain this? Do you usually proceed in this manner, in this fashion? Do
10 you not usually extract the stabiliser? What
11 do you usually do?
12 A. In cases such as the one at the Markale market where there were
13 lots of casualties, lots of deaths, we did not wish to continue the work
14 because the magistrate, the investigating magistrate, told us to stop and
15 wait because the UNPROFOR members might come. We weren't really sure that
16 they will or that they would come. So this was part of our usual
17 procedure during the war. Whenever there was a greater number of civilian
18 casualties, this is the way we were proceeding because usually the
19 UNPROFOR was going on site as well in those cases.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sabljica, am I right in understanding that your
22 method with the compass and the map requires the centre of the needle to
23 be put precisely on the spot where the impact took place?
24 A. If the circumstances permit so, yes, in order to be as precise as
1 JUDGE ORIE: How did you manage to get the centre of the needle of
2 the compass on a rather large-scale map, as I can see, to be precise on
3 the spot of the impact? I'm just trying to imagine for myself how to do
4 it, look under it. How did you manage to get it exactly on the spot?
5 A. That was not exactly the spot, but we try to do our best in view
6 of the kind of map that we have. In the case of Markale, the compass was
7 located on the spot that I indicated in my testimony.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever make an analysis of what would be
9 the deviation if, for example, you'd put the centre of the needle, well,
10 let's say 5 millimetres off the spot? I mean, what would that mean for
11 the final result of your investigation?
12 A. That kind of analysis was never done; however, the late Mr. Zlatko
13 Medjedovic carried out similar analysis by using metal objects and testing
14 them against this compass needle. We made sure that in the vicinity of
15 the compass and the map that there were no metal objects which might have
16 a more significant impact on the movements of the compass needle.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand that, that you removed whatever
18 metal objects there were. But especially analysis of what would be the
19 effect on the outcome of your investigation if, for example, the centre of
20 the needle would be 5 millimetres away from the exact spot of the impact
21 on the map, because it's so difficult to look under the compass.
22 A. No, we never carried out such analysis. Personally, I don't think
23 that 5 millimetres would be a significant deviation.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Sabljica.
25 This concludes an examination of you as a witness, which lasted
1 for a few days even, with some interruptions. You will be aware that it's
2 of great importance for this Court, for this Chamber, to hear the answers
3 of those who were present at the relevant times and places, the answers to
4 the questions put by both parties and by the Judges themselves. It's
5 important for us for the decisions we'll finally have to make. We are
6 also aware that it's quite an effort for you to come from far away, travel
7 to The Hague, stay here for I would say a few days, but perhaps even many
8 days by now. So we would like to thank you very much that you have come
9 to The Hague, that you have testified in this Court. And we'll wish you a
10 safe journey home again.
11 Mr. Usher, could you please lead the witness out of the
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think Madam Registrar we should start tomorrow
15 morning with the documents, since we asked already so much time from the
16 interpreters. So I prefer to do that tomorrow morning first thing. And I
17 think some of the documents, if they are admitted, will have to be
18 admitted under seal because of the name of the protected witness on it.
19 Then I would like to urge the parties, especially for tomorrow, to be
20 again as efficient as possible. We know that those witnesses we are not
21 able to examine tomorrow, if we are not able to conclude their
22 examination, that they will have to wait for more than a week and either
23 travel back or forth. So may I urge the parties to be as efficient as
25 And then finally, just for the sake of the transcript, it was my
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 recollection that the name "Goethe" was of Johan Wolfgang Von Goethe, a
2 German poet, which is written "Goethe."
3 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
5 1.54 p.m., to be reconvened on
6 Friday, the 15th day of March, 2002,
7 at 9.00 a.m.