1 Friday, 15 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom and in the
6 booths assisting us.
7 Before we give the opportunity to the Prosecution to call the next
8 witness, I think we still have to deal with the documents.
9 Madam Registrar, could you please, after having called the case,
10 assist us.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
12 Stanislav Galic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Could you guide us
14 through the...
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2309A, a report on criminal technical
16 examination of the site at the Markale market. P2309A.1, the English
17 translation. P2172 under seal.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp. Let me just ask you, there are a few
19 documents which you did not tender under seal, and it really takes quite
20 an effort to find in that document what you shouldn't find perhaps, but do
21 you think that it should be admitted under seal?
22 MR. STAMP: I would only ask that the name on the bottom of the
23 front in the middle be --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I'm afraid that's not possible. When you
25 show it on the ELMO, you can easily do that.
1 MR. STAMP: May I just consult one moment, if I may.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you then also pay attention to 2172 and
5 express the Prosecution's view also on D67.
6 MR. STAMP: May it please the Court, in respect to the
7 Exhibit 2172, we would have no objection if it's received by the Court
8 under seal.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. STAMP: D67, if my records are correct, is a drawing which the
11 Defence counsel asked the --
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's not as far as I can see. As far as I can
13 see, it's an on-site criminal forensic investigation related to --
14 MR. STAMP: I see. Subject to the Defence it being something
15 proffered by them, I would ask that be received on the seal as well.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 THE REGISTRAR: P2172.1, the English translation. P3665, a sketch
18 drawn by the witness. P2171, a report submitted by Borislav Stankov. And
19 P2171.1, the English translation. P22 --
20 MR. STAMP: If I may, Madam Registrar.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Stamp.
22 MR. STAMP: In respect to P2171, there had been a paragraph with
23 some illegible passages. And I had asked -- I realise that I'm not in a
24 position to instruct the language section because they are not under our
25 control. I asked them to revise the translation excluding the areas as
1 ordered by the Court. I received this morning the revised translation and
2 a letter attached to it in which it is expressed that they cannot, as a
3 matter of the governing rules, omit to translate anything which is legible
4 on a document. And they are asking or suggesting that the Court, if it
5 sees it fit, could ignore that part of the document which they think is
6 illegible and which would affect the context of the rest of the
8 I'm afraid I could not demand of them that they do as was
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. One moment, please.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, it would be acceptable for this Chamber,
13 since it is a specific part where only the first sentence remains for this
14 Chamber to consider, that if you take the original translation as it
15 existed and you blacken the remaining part of that paragraph so that we
16 cannot read apart from the first sentence of that paragraph what the
17 translation would be, that would be acceptable to be admitted. Since we
18 cannot read the original language, so we have a -- we would then have a
19 translation that is partly blackened, especially that part we would not
20 accept. I think that can be easily done. It doesn't have to be done on
21 this very moment. If you do it, let's say, somewhere over the next hour.
22 Then we would first have the original entered into evidence, and then you
23 offer the translation but part of it unreadable for us.
24 MR. STAMP: Very well.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could please prepare that.
1 Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: P2247A, report on forensic investigation of site
3 where mortar shells landed. P2247A.1, the English translation. P3644.MS,
4 map marked by witness. D67 under seal, a report on-site criminal forensic
5 investigation bearing ERN number 0070 -- I apologise. Bearing ERN number
6 0036-2616. The English translation, D671 under seal. D68, a diagram.
7 D69, a diagram drawn by the witness. D70, three pages of diagrams. D71,
8 annex 6 of the UNPROFOR report, page 768 and 769. D72, a videotape. D73,
9 a videotape.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Am I right that in the
11 diagram made by the witness has not been copied yet, so who is going to
12 take care of that? Perhaps you, if it's still in your hands, you will
13 provide both the Chamber and the parties with copies of that diagram.
14 Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 They are then all admitted into evidence. And I note that 2171
16 and translation, 2172 and translation, D67, are under seal.
17 Then, Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: If it pleases you, Mr. President, Your Honours, there
19 is another matter in respect to the exhibits, that is going back to the
20 testimony of Sead Besic.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. STAMP: The Court had indicated that perhaps if the
23 Exhibit D64, which was a tape which the Defence had produced in Court but
24 which we had just received, was identical or contained everything which
25 was in the tapes previously played in Court, then perhaps that
1 comprehensive tape could be put in evidence. I have to advise the Court
2 that it is not. The tape D64 has on it the entirety of the videorecording
3 of the investigations of the 4th of February, 1994, which was played
4 before the Court. Thereafter, it has only a part of the investigations of
5 the 5th of February, 1994, which was played before the Court. Before that
6 was presented, there were two other videos played in respect to the
7 investigations of the 5th and 6th January [sic]. That was P2279, which
8 was a cut version of an original document, original video, which is
10 The Court had asked that a video be prepared of only those parts
11 which were played in the Court. That has been done, and we have
12 designated that P2279B. And that would have been comprehensive for those
13 parts of the Markale investigation which was videotaped and which had been
14 played before the Court up to the testimony of Sead Besic. Other parts
15 have now been played subsequently of the same tape, and therefore, subject
16 to the Court, of course, I would recommend that the Court receives in
17 evidence the full uncut version which has everything that was played in
18 Court. And that would be P2279A, as well as the one tendered by the
19 Defence, D64.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll check that on the record. So it's your request
21 that apart from D64 tendered by the Defence, that 2279A, that's the
22 uncut -- the complete version, is also admitted into evidence.
23 MR. STAMP: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll give a decision on that after the break. It's
25 not an urgent matter at this very moment as far as I understand.
1 MR. STAMP: No.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Stamp, for your additional
3 information. 2279A has been available to the Defence in a prior stage.
4 So if there would be any objection, Ms. Pilipovic, but I'm not aware at
5 this very moment, then please let us know just at the end of the -- just
6 before the break, or if you say I can only do it during the break, please
7 let us know so we can give a decision on the admission in evidence of a
8 videotape 2279A.
9 Yes, if there's nothing else, Mr. Stamp, who would be the next
10 witness you would call?
11 MR. STAMP: Next witness is Witness AF.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Am I right if I expect it to be Witness AK?
13 MR. STAMP: AK, I beg your pardon. Thanks, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Witness AK is protected by a
15 pseudonym and by face distortion.
16 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would mean that when she enters the
18 courtroom, we have to take special caution that she'll not be...
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm informed that the booth is aware of the measures
21 to be taken when she enters the courtroom.
22 Mr. Usher, would you then, please, bring in Witness AK.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: As you may know, this Court has granted protective
4 measures in your respect, and that means that we are not addressing you by
5 your name but by a pseudonym. We will call you Mrs. AK. That's the
6 special name you got in this courtroom. Before testifying in this Court,
7 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
8 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
9 the truth. May I invite you to make the declaration, and the text of the
10 declaration will be handed out to you by the usher now.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
13 and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
15 Mrs. AK, you'll first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.
16 I checked that the protective measures are effective. That means that
17 your face cannot be seen on the video images, and that we'll not mention
18 your name.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
20 MR. STAMP: May it please you, Mr. President, Your Honours. If I
21 may proceed by handing to the witness a document which I ask be handed to
22 her in such a way that the camera may not pick up what is on it. It's
23 Document P3671.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 WITNESS: WITNESS AK
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Examined by Mr. Stamp:
3 Q. Now, Witness AK, I'm going to ask you to answer me "yes" or "no,"
4 and do not tell me what is written there. Just simply, do you see your
5 name written on that document; yes or no?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you see your date of birth written on that document?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then P3671, Madam Registrar, is admitted into
11 evidence. It's the name sheet.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Under seal?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Under seal, yes.
14 I apologise. Ms. Pilipovic, it had not been shown to you.
15 MR. STAMP: And my apology as well. Oversight on my part as
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP:
19 Q. Madam, do you live in Sarajevo?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. For about how long have you lived there?
22 A. 35 years.
23 Q. I'm afraid I see the answer on the transcript, but I didn't hear
24 it. Perhaps --
25 A. 35 years.
1 Q. It might have been a technical fault. I'll proceed.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. STAMP:
4 Q. Now, did you live in Sarajevo during the conflict between 1992 and
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, without telling us your exact address in terms of the street,
8 could you tell us which quarter or district of Sarajevo did you live at
9 during the conflict?
10 A. Sedrenik.
11 Q. And were you married with children?
12 A. Yes. I'm married, and I have two sons.
13 Q. Do you -- I withdraw that.
14 Do you recall speaking with an investigator of the OTP on the 18th
15 of November, 1995?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. And did you put on a map that he presented you an approximate
18 location of your house?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. And if you saw that map, you'd be able to identify it, would you?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, Your Honours, I ask
23 that the witness be shown P3666, with the -- with a part of it
25 Could you show that to the Defence as well before you show it to
2 Could you put the map on the screen there, please.
3 Q. Now, is that the map that you were shown by the investigator in
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the
6 microphone. We believe the answer was yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. AK, if you turn to the right, the interpreters
8 have difficulties in hearing you so. The usher will assist you to speak
9 into the microphone even if you're looking on the map. Yes.
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. I believe you said that this was a map you were shown in 1995.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The map
14 that the Defence has been given is marked. It has a mark at the bottom
15 where it says Stari Grad, so I just want to know if that is the case with
16 all the maps, to avoid any confusion later on.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's a marked map, Mr. Stamp. I see some
18 orange and red markings on it. Is that correct?
19 MR. STAMP: Yes. On this one.
20 JUDGE ORIE: On this one, yes.
21 MR. STAMP: There's an orange mark on this one.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. STAMP:
24 Q. I believe you said this was a map you were shown by an OTP
25 investigator in 1995. Was it the map you were shown by an OTP
1 investigator in 1995?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. And did you mark on it the approximate location of
4 your house?
5 A. I did.
6 Q. On the map which you have to your side, could you just point to
7 where you marked as the approximate location of your house.
8 A. Yes. Here.
9 Q. You are pointing to the red X on the map?
10 A. Yes, that's it.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I do understand that you're fully aware
13 that you're just asking the witness the approximate, not the -- especially
14 in view of the protective measures. The booth was asking whether
15 everything is okay. But as far as I understand your questioning, it's
16 just the approximate area, yes.
17 Please proceed, then.
18 MR. STAMP:
19 Q. Now, from where you lived approximately how far was the
20 confrontation line between the two parties of the conflict, that is the
21 confrontation line between the Bosnian Serb army and the army of the
22 Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 A. About 500 metres as the crow flies.
24 Q. And was that to the north, south, east, or west? In other words,
25 may I rephrase it, was that confrontation line to the north of your house,
1 to the south of your house, to the east of your house, or to the west of
2 your house?
3 A. I think north.
4 Q. Now, in the course of the conflict, what was the condition of life
5 in Sedrenik in respect to shelling and sniping?
6 A. The conditions were very hard. We dare not come out by day so
7 that we went at night to fetch water. We would go out at 11.00 and wait
8 until 5.00 in the morning. And after 5.00, even if we didn't get any
9 water, we had to go back without it and then come back the next night
10 because that was when the snipers would set off in action.
11 Q. Now, do you know any particular community which lay to the north
12 of where you lived beyond the confrontation line?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You told us of sniping. What was the condition of life in
15 Sedrenik during the conflict in respect to shelling?
16 A. Very difficult. There was frequent shelling.
17 Q. Were you or was your home ever affected by the shelling?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you tell us about that, please.
20 A. Once in the evening, at 7.00, we were having our supper, and the
21 shell hit 5 metres in front of our house. Now, there is a big boulder
22 there, and it hit the boulder. All the windows burst. All our things
23 were thrown out of the house. We were seven in that room. Myself, my
24 husband, my youngest son, my daughter-in-law, my two sisters.
25 Fortunately, there was shrapnel all around, but no one was hurt.
1 Q. Do you recall when this occurred? Do you recall the year?
2 A. Just a moment. I think it was 1994.
3 Q. Do you remember what part of that year?
4 A. September, I think. Maybe October.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, did you hear shells being fired during the
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was this a frequent or infrequent observation that you made of
9 hearing shells fired? Did you hear it frequently or infrequently?
10 A. Frequently.
11 Q. Can you say if you heard the sound of the firing coming from any
12 particular community?
13 A. Yes, yes. From when -- they were fired from Mrkovici, then one
14 could hear them better when they were fired from Mrkovici than from some
15 other parts of the city. When they came from this part, I could hear them
17 Q. Where was Mrkovici with respect to where you lived and with
18 respect to where the confrontation line was?
19 A. The confrontation line was above my house, not in front of the
20 house but behind the house. And Mrkovici was in this direction, that is,
21 to one side.
22 Q. You said you could hear them better from Mrkovici than when they
23 were fired from other parts of the city. Could you say what other parts
24 of the city they were fired from?
25 A. From Trebevic, too, often.
1 Q. Now, Trebevic I take it is on the other side of the city, is it?
2 A. Yes. That's right. It would be in front of my house.
3 Q. If we could just get the geography clear. You live in an area of
4 Sedrenik, which is a hill overlooking urban Sarajevo. Is that correct?
5 A. It is, yes.
6 Q. And from where you lived, you could look above the city towards
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Now, in respect to the shelling which came from Trebevic, and I'm
10 asking you about the period from August 1992 -- from September 1992 to
11 August 1994, in particular, or I'm asking you to confine everything you
12 say to that period, September 1992 to August 1994, did you see or observe
13 anything in respect of the shelling as far as Trebevic is concerned?
14 A. I did. In daytime, I could see with the naked eye the barrels on
15 Trebevic, and I could see fire coming from Trebevic, fire that was aimed
16 in our direction.
17 Q. Could you hear anything when the fire came from Trebevic?
18 A. Yes. I could hear it when shots were fired.
19 Q. What did you hear when shots were fired from Trebevic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The question is: What did you hear when you say you could hear
23 A. It was the gunfire. I could see barrels, and I would hear these
24 shots. And then I could see the first shell hit somewhere in or around
25 Stari Grad, then we would get down to the cellar.
1 Q. You said you also heard shell fire coming from Mrkovici?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were there any military installations or soldiers in the vicinity
4 of your house?
5 A. No, none. It was just neighbourhood, an area with civilian
7 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you to cast your mind to the 5th of
8 February, 1994. Can you recall that day? Was there anything that was to
9 happen that day which was of any personal interest to you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was of personal interest to you?
12 A. That day, my father was to be buried. He had died on the 3rd of
13 February and on the 5th was the funeral. He lived in Zenica. It was very
14 difficult for us because we could not leave Sarajevo at the time. We were
15 under complete siege. So I came out to the terrace the balcony, because I
16 was having it very hard.
17 Q. That day, were you home alone or were you there with other
19 A. I was alone. My husband worked for the [redacted] and he was on
20 duty all the time. He was on reserve all the time. My younger son was at
21 school, so that I was all alone.
22 Q. Thank you very much. Now, at about what time did you go out on
23 the balcony?
24 A. It was around 12.00, around 12.00.
25 Q. Now, while you were out on the balcony, did you hear anything in
1 particular after 12.00?
2 A. Yes. I heard a shot being fired, but I didn't move. I just
3 stayed on the balcony.
4 Q. When you say "a shot," could you tell us what you heard? A shot
5 sounding like what? What did the shot that you speak of sound like?
6 A. Well, that sound, that sound was the regular sound that I heard
7 always both from Mrkovici and from Trebevic. It's like when a plastic
8 bottle bursts.
9 Q. Let me clarify one thing: It was 12.00 mid-day or 12.00
10 midnight? I want to get the time straight when you went on your balcony.
11 A. Noon. Perhaps it wasn't noon exactly, it could have been plus
12 minus. But sometime between 12.00 and half past 12.00.
13 Q. Now, that sound which you heard, which you said you had heard
14 before coming from Mrkovici, could you describe the sound as best as you
15 can, or could you tell us what it sounded like?
16 A. It's a sound as like when a plastic bottle explodes. There is a
17 burst, there is a bang, and then you hear a buzz.
18 Q. Well, let us -- you said it sounded -- you said "I heard a shot
19 being fired." It sounded like a shot from what? That is what I'm
20 interested in.
21 A. Like a plastic bottle.
22 Q. Did it -- from what type of weapon did it -- did this shot sound
23 like it was fired from? Heavy or light weapon?
24 A. That sound was always made by a shell.
25 Q. After you heard this sound which you describe as always being made
1 by a shell, did you observe anything in the vicinity of the city?
2 A. I didn't understand the question. What do you mean by this?
3 Q. Did anything happen in the city after you heard the sound of the
5 A. Oh, yes.
6 Q. Tell us what happened in the city, what you noticed in the city.
7 A. That day was exceptionally quiet. There was no shelling the whole
8 morning so that everybody went about their chores, going to the market to
9 buy something. So did my son, because we had -- my youngest son -- and we
10 needed a pot of milk or something on the market. So my son went to the
11 market. And then I heard the sound of that shell, and I immediately
12 thought -- rather, I saw -- I could see part of the cathedral, so I
13 assumed it was the market. I knew my son was at the market at the time,
14 my older son.
15 Q. What did you notice from the cathedral? What could you see?
16 A. I'm rather high up. My house is on a slope, and it was a clear
17 day where I lived, because we're on a hill. But in the city, it was
18 rather cloudy. It was rather overcast. And nevertheless, I could see
19 smoke coming out from that part of the market, lots of smoke.
20 Q. Which market is that?
21 A. Markale.
22 Q. About how long after you heard the shot of the shell from Mrkovici
23 did you see the smoke coming from Markale?
24 A. Well, it didn't take long. Could have been --
25 Q. Could you estimate the time? Just an estimate, please.
1 A. Well, a couple of seconds. Not long.
2 Q. What do you mean by "a couple"? Could you just give us an
3 estimate in numbers? We know it's an estimate. We know you can't be
5 A. I don't know. Could have been five seconds, say. Really, I can't
6 judge. I can't assess that.
7 Q. Very well. Thank you.
8 You said that that day was a clear day, and at least in Sedrenik,
9 and there had been no shelling otherwise that morning. But on other days,
10 was this the first time you had heard shells being shot from the area of
12 A. No.
13 Q. And was this the first time you had observed smoke or anything
14 happen in the city after shells were shot from Mrkovici?
15 A. That day?
16 Q. No, I'm speaking generally. Generally speaking.
17 A. Oh, no. All shells throughout the aggression, I could see every
18 single shell where it fell in the city from Trebevic, from Mrkovici, and
19 from other parts of the city.
20 Q. Now, you said you were concerned for one of your sons who had gone
21 to the market. Did you do anything after you saw the smoke coming from
22 the area of the market?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What did you do?
25 A. My sister lives next to the cathedral, so I called my sister that
1 very moment and asked my brother-in-law to go out and try to find out what
2 was happening there.
3 Q. How did you call your sister?
4 A. By telephone.
5 Q. And was your son hurt in the market?
6 A. No. At that moment, when the shell fell, there is a supermarket
7 across Markale, and he was trying to buy something there so that he was in
8 the supermarket at the moment when the shell fell so that he wasn't hurt.
9 Q. The area of Mrkovici, can you say which of the parties in the
10 conflict? Was it the Bosnian Serb army or the army of the Federation of
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina which controlled Mrkovici?
12 A. Our army had no access to Mrkovici at all.
13 Q. I take it by that answer you're saying the area of Mrkovici was
14 under the Bosnian Serb army control?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And the areas of Trebevic from which you saw shelling into the
17 city, can you say which party of the conflict controlled that area of
19 A. Serb troops.
20 Q. Did you?
21 MR. STAMP: May I have a moment to confer with my friend.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MR. STAMP:
24 Q. Was any of your family or relatives injured in the explosion in
25 the market?
1 A. None of my proper family.
2 Q. I see. Anybody -- I don't want to use the expression "improper"
3 family. Was anybody close to you, do you know, injured at the market?
4 A. Well, we had a number of friends, acquaintances, but none of my
5 family strictly speaking. Oh, excuse me, sorry. My brother-in-law was
7 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, Madam AK. My friend may have
8 questions for you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. AK, you'll now be questioned by counsel for the
11 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you.
13 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. AK, good morning.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. Can you tell us, and I believe that you've already confirmed the
17 fact, that on the 18th of November, 1995, you've given to members of the
18 OTP a statement?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. By signing the statement, did you confirm that the declaration,
21 that statement, contains what you said?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us if after the month of November 1995, you talked
24 once again with members of the OTP and when?
25 A. I believe that it was in 1998. I have had a conversation with
1 them again.
2 Q. Were you interviewed on the 24th of June, 2001?
3 A. I believe so.
4 Q. And on the 3rd of August, 2000, were you interviewed by them?
5 A. Believe me that I do not remember of the dates. I know that I was
6 interviewed. We had exchanges, but I cannot remember the dates.
7 Q. On the map that my learned colleagues showed you, you have
8 indicated the approximate place where you lived?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You lived there with your family?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You told us that you had a younger son. That also means that you
13 must have had an older son?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell us, then, where did your eldest work?
16 A. He was working in the water company, and it was a duty -- working
18 Q. Was your son a soldier?
19 A. Yes, later he became a soldier.
20 Q. When you say that he became a soldier, when?
21 A. Not right away. When the aggression began, there was a
22 mobilisation, and then he was drafted.
23 Q. When did the mobilisation take place?
24 A. Five months later, after the beginning of the conflict.
25 Q. Can you tell us what do you mean by "aggression"?
1 A. As of the 1st of March, 1992, I believe that he was already in the
2 army in June.
3 Q. What did you mean when you said "as of the 1st of March, 1992"?
4 A. No, during that period of time, he was still working at the water
5 company, was working duty. He was working actually at that water
6 company. He was an employee of the company.
7 Q. When did the mobilisation take place? When was he drafted?
8 A. Five months later.
9 Q. So as of the month of June 1992. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell us what military unit did he belong to?
12 A. The 105th.
13 Q. When you say "105th," can you explain a bit closer what it is, it
14 is the 105th Brigade?
15 A. Yes, brigade.
16 Q. Did your son live with you in the same house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell us where the positions were? Where did your son go
19 to the front?
20 A. My son was in the demarcation line of Sedrenik.
21 Q. Can you tell us to what brigade did your son belong?
22 A. The 105th.
23 Q. You said that the front line was in Sedrenik. What was the
24 distance of the 105th Brigade, the brigade in which your son was, from
25 your house?
1 A. About 600 metres. In fact, they were right under the Spicasta, so
2 I presume that must have been the right distance.
3 Q. Your son also bore weapons?
4 A. Later. Not right away.
5 Q. What were the weapons that he was issued?
6 A. A rifle. It was an automatic rifle.
7 Q. Did he also wear a uniform?
8 A. No. They only received uniforms in 1995.
9 Q. When he would go to the front line, how long would he stay there?
10 A. He would go in the evening, and then he would come back in the
12 Q. Would he come back home for lunch, or did he eat with the rest of
13 the army somewhere else?
14 A. No, he was only going in the evening. He would leave at 7.00 p.m.
15 and he would come back at 7.00 in the morning.
16 Q. And where was your husband? Was he on the front line as well?
17 A. He was a reserve employee. He worked at the company,
18 Poditrastovi. He was working for the water company.
19 Q. How far was the water company, the reservoir, from your house?
20 A. About 500 metres away.
21 Q. That water reservoir that your husband took care of, was that the
22 reservoir that supplied the inhabitants of Sedrenik with water?
23 A. When there was water. It was actually not for the civilians. It
24 was for the hospital.
25 Q. So you told us that that reservoir that your husband had to take
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 care of, and I presume other people as well, was supplying the citizens of
2 Sedrenik as well as the hospital. Which hospital?
3 A. The Kosevo Hospital under the Podhrastovi, in Podhrastovi.
4 Q. In 1993, how often was your son absent? How often would he go to
5 the front line? Was it every day?
6 A. Yes, it was every day.
7 Q. When your son would come back from the front line, would he tell
8 you that at that place where he was, that there were some fightings going
10 A. He would never tell us these things, but we were able to hear
11 nevertheless and we were also able to see what was going on. We knew when
12 we heard shots. They couldn't fire back. They didn't have any weapons
13 really, because one automatic rifle served for three soldiers.
14 Q. This is what your son had told you?
15 A. We knew this. Everybody knew this.
16 Q. Did your son tell you, would he tell you, how many weapons did
17 they have within their brigade?
18 A. No, he wouldn't tell us anything, but we would know because the
19 other members of the group from the neighbourhood were going there. And
20 we knew that they didn't have any weapons. We also knew that they had to
21 share a rifle. They had to share -- three people had to share the same
23 Q. Did your son ever tell you that he was holding the positions of
24 Grdonj and Sedam Suma?
25 A. No, he wasn't there. He was not at those positions. He was right
1 under the Spica. That was his position.
2 Q. Do you know what was the distance between the VRS positions and
3 the lines where your son went?
4 A. About a hundred to 200 metres.
5 Q. Can you tell us the following: If we talk of Sedrenik, in
6 relation to Sedrenik, where is Mrkovici with regards to the cardinal
7 points? Would you be able to show us on the map?
8 A. Yes, but I do not have a map before me.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
10 like to submit to the witness the map P3666.
11 Q. In relation to Sedrenik, would you be able to show us where -- or
12 in relation to your house?
13 A. No, not the house. Sedrenik is here, and Mrkovici is situated
14 over here in this direction. Here.
15 Q. How far is Mrkovici from your house?
16 A. I don't know precisely, but I presume that it must be about 1
17 kilometre to 2 kilometres at the most.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, just for the sake of the record, the
19 witness was pointing in the direction of the right top corner of the map.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Later on, with
21 your leave, I will show the witness a map that shows Mrkovici so we can
22 all clearly see where it is.
23 Q. But since this map is more clear, I would like to ask a few
24 questions in relation to this map. I would like to ask the witness to
25 show us on this map the area of the Markale market and to show us -- in
1 respect to the house of the witness, I would like to ask the witness to
2 mark with a black marker the Markale market to show us where it is in
3 respect to her house.
4 A. [Indicates].
5 Q. Witness, would you be kind enough to take a black marker and to --
6 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. AK, may I just draw your attention. If you are
9 leaning over to the map as you do it now, so then the technicians have
10 difficulties with the face distortion because they have to show the map,
11 but at the same time not show your face. So if it would be possible for
12 you just even if you point at something, to sit a bit back so that your
13 facial distortion still functions and that your face is not to be seen
14 when you're leaning over to the map.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm terribly sorry, but my glasses
16 are not the right ones. When I left, my glasses were broken. So I had to
17 take these, but they don't really correspond to my -- they are not really
18 clear for me. They are not the right glasses.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Witness, could you please tell us where the Markale market is
21 situated on this map.
22 A. [Indicates]
23 Q. What street is it on?
24 A. Titova Street. May I place this map in front of me?
25 Q. Yes, you can. And please draw a little circle around the place
1 where the Markale market is. You may take a black marker, circle it, and
2 write number 1 in the middle of it or next to it.
3 Witness, were you able to find it? Did you circle the spot?
4 Please draw a small circle and indicate it with the number 1.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. Can you tell us now where your house is with respect to the
7 market? You can do this by drawing a straight line with the marker, if
8 you can show us the general direction of your house by doing this,
10 You may draw a line from the market towards your house.
11 A. [Marks].
12 Q. From your house, would you be able to show us where Mrkovici is.
13 So in relation to your house, draw a line with the same marker, please.
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. Please put an arrow to indicate -- on that line, you can put an
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness
18 indicated the location of the Markale market. She indicated it with the
19 number "1." And from the red cross that indicates the approximate
20 position of her house, she drew a line in the direction of northeast, and
21 with this line, she indicated the direction of Mrkovici.
22 Q. Witness, do you know what is the distance between your house and
23 the Markale market?
24 A. I believe approximately 700 kilometres [as interpreted] as the
25 crow flies.
1 Q. If you said that Mrkovici in relation to your house is 2
2 kilometres away --
3 A. No, no, no. About a kilometre and a half. I don't really know
4 with precision.
5 Q. But what is Mrkovici? Can you tell us?
6 A. Mrkovici is a neighbourhood. It's actually a village in itself.
7 Q. Did you ever go to Mrkovici?
8 A. No, but I went to Crepoljsko.
9 Q. What is the distance between your house yourself and Crepoljsko?
10 A. It's very close to Mrkovici.
11 Q. Do you know that there is an upper Mrkovici and lower Mrkovici, so
12 Gornji Mrkovici and Donja Mrkovici?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If you told us that Mrkovici is a distance of about a kilometre
15 and a half from your house, then in metres or kilometres, what is the
16 distance from your house to the Markale market? Is it 1 kilometres or a
17 thousand metres?
18 A. I said about 700 metres as the crow flies.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, in the transcript, it says it's 700
20 kilometres, which might be a mistake.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
22 Q. Witness, what is the distance between the Markale market and your
24 A. It's not that far. Approximately -- well, from my house, the
25 street goes right down to Bascarsija, and from Bascarsija to the market,
1 it's not very far. It's -- the distance is shorter than from my house to
2 that point.
3 Q. Thank you. You told us that in the part of the city called
4 Sedrenik where you live, you were able to hear and see a very -- shelling
5 at -- very frequently. Can you tell us how frequently were you able to
6 hear shelling?
7 A. It would occur every day, sometimes two shells would land,
8 sometimes three. In that more closer area, more narrow area, but very
9 often there were lots of shells.
10 Q. You told us that you saw each shell that landed on the city?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. From what vantage point were you able to observe these shells
14 A. From my house, from the window.
15 Q. So you were in your house and not in the cellar?
16 A. Well, if the city was shelled, I would then stay in the house.
17 But whenever I would hear a shell falling close by, I would then go down
18 to the cellar. But even from the cellar, I was able to see where the
19 shells were landing.
20 Q. When you would see shells land, could you tell us in what part of
21 the city were the shells directed to?
22 A. For the most part, in the Stari Grad area.
23 Q. Do you know what was the damage caused in those parts of the city
24 by the shells?
25 A. The damage was quite important. The old city, Stari Grad, was
1 quite damaged.
2 Q. Would you be able to show us on the map from which part of the
3 city of Sarajevo were you able to see the direction of which the shells
4 would land on the Stari Grad area?
5 A. From Mrkovici, let me find Trebevic. Just a moment, please.
6 Q. With a black marker, could you please show us the direction from
7 which the shells that you were able to see were coming from?
8 A. Here. Here, here. Trebevic it's over here. No, we don't see
9 Trebevic on this map. This is Vrace, this is that area.
10 Q. With a black marker, would you please indicate those areas for
11 which you say that.
12 A. It's this part here going all the way up.
13 Q. You are drawing what exactly right now?
14 A. From Vraca, the shells were directed. And here Trebevic is not
15 shown on the map. This is the Trebevic area. It was coming from the same
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness showed
18 Vrace --
19 Q. Witness, please tell us where Vrace is by indicating a V.
20 Witness, mark with a V the area for which you said it was Vrace.
21 A. [Marks].
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] So for the transcript, the witness
23 drew a line from Vrace indicated with a V, a straight line going all the
24 way to her house to show us where the shells were coming from.
25 A. Those shells would come from here, from Vrace, and they would land
1 in Bascarsija.
2 Q. Very well. Please then indicate Bascarsija with a letter B. You
3 can mark a big letter B -- capital B so we can see it well.
4 A. Trebevic they would also come from here.
5 Q. Witness, please indicate the line with a T. In the lower part,
6 mark a T so we know we are talking about Trebevic, and please show us the
7 parts of the city on which the shells landed, those shells that were
8 coming from Trebevic.
9 A. [Marks].
10 Q. Please draw a very large circle around that part of the town to
11 show us where the shells that came from Trebevic landed.
12 A. [Marks].
13 Q. Can you please tell us what is the name of that part of the city?
14 Is it Hrasnovo?
15 A. It's Sedrenik.
16 Q. So you're telling us that from --
17 A. No, it's Brdo here. It's this area here. For the transcript.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
19 MR. STAMP: It's not an objection. But I think the pace is such
20 that we perhaps will not get enough for the record to record what these
21 markings are.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic, I think it's a good suggestion to
23 take it part by part.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to explain
25 everything for the transcript.
1 Q. Witness, right, so you drew a line in the middle of the map, but
2 the lower part you indicated with a T the location of Trebevic. So from
3 that direction, the witness drew a line and also drew a large circle
4 around the general area for which she said to us that Sedrenik was
6 MR. STAMP: Just a minor point, but just for the record, the T
7 represents, according to the witness, the direction of Trebevic, not the
8 location of Trebevic. She said Trebevic is not on the map. But I think
9 she was showing the direction from which it came and not that the T shows
10 where Trebevic is.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, could you please clarify that with the
12 witness, Ms. Pilipovic.
13 Apart from that, Ms. Pilipovic, how much time would you still
14 need? I'm asking this specifically because for the next witness, we might
15 need some time to prepare the courtroom. So I wonder if it would just be
16 a matter of a couple of minutes, then we could ask the booth whether we
17 could continue or not. So that we can use the break for preparing the
18 courtroom for the next witness. If not, please indicate. So how much
19 time you still need. And I bring to your attention that the
20 examination-in-chief took approximately 35 minutes.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my cross-examination
22 will be no longer than 35 minutes, but I believe that I still have 15 more
23 minutes, and I will attempt to finish the cross-examination within that
24 period of time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid that you want to stay within 35 minutes,
1 you have no 15 minutes left any more. Let me just guide you. On my
2 laptop, the cross-examination started at 1 minute after 10.00, and on my
3 laptop time, because the time is not always the same, you are now at
4 10.31, so you used 30 minutes. If you think you could finish in five
5 minutes, I would see whether we could continue. If not, please indicate
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to finish
8 in ten minutes, with your leave.
9 JUDGE ORIE: May I then ask the booth, since for the protective
10 measures, the technicians will need some time. I assume it will take
11 approximately 20 minutes. If we now would have a break, then continue for
12 another 5 or 7 or 10 minutes, and then we would need another 20 minutes'
13 break immediately afterwards. So if it would be acceptable to you, I'd
14 rather now see whether we can finish. Of course, if not, then...
15 May I have an answer from the booth? I know that I'm now and then
16 asking a lot of you.
17 Yes, I don't hear anything as a matter of fact.
18 THE INTERPRETER: No problem, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. This is also valid for the
20 French booth? Yes, thank you.
21 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. For the
23 transcript, T indicates the direction that the witness indicated to us as
24 being the direction of Trebevic. She also drew a very large circle around
25 an area from which from Trebevic the shells landed. The circle indicates
1 or shows us Sedrenik, that general area, in which the witness also lived.
2 Q. Witness, on that map, did you also draw another line to the right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us what direction that indicates? What is the
5 direction from which you tell us that the shelling came?
6 A. It's Colina, Colina Kapa it's called.
7 Q. Would you be kind enough to write the letter C around it, so
8 letter C.
9 A. [Marks].
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness
11 just indicated the letter C. It's the direction of Colina Kapa, and it's
12 from that direction that the city was shelled.
13 Q. Can you tell us what part of the city was shelled by drawing a
14 circle around that part in question.
15 A. [marks].
16 Q. What is the name of that part of the city? And indicate the
17 letter of that part of the city, write a letter down. What is the name of
18 that part of the city?
19 A. Mihrivode.
20 Q. Then please write an M next to it.
21 A. [Marks].
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness
23 drew a line on the map and indicated the direction of Colina Kapa, and
24 from that direction, the part of the city was shelled, and it's the part
25 of the city for which the witness drew a circle, and that's the part of
1 the city called Mihrivode indicated with an M.
2 Q. Thank you, Witness. You told us that on the 5th of February, you
3 heard something being fired, a projectile being fired.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you please tell us from what direction and how far was the
6 distance from the place where you were standing that you heard that
8 A. About a kilometre to a kilometre and a half.
9 Q. What did you hear after that when you told us that you heard
10 firing of a projectile? What did you hear afterwards?
11 A. I heard something being fired. I heard a sound, and then I heard
12 also shooting above my house. I also heard that same sound, and then I
13 saw where the shell landed. And I also saw this huge smoke coming from
15 Q. You told us that this lasted 5 seconds?
16 A. A couple of seconds. You may determine it yourself. But it
17 really happened quickly.
18 Q. What is the sound that you heard over your house or above your
20 A. It was a sound that was quite familiar to me. I often heard that
21 sound at the same height going in the same direction, and it was always
22 the same sound.
23 Q. Can you compare that sound to a sound that's familiar to all of
25 A. Well, first, like a burst of a plastic bottle, and then a buzzing
1 sound. It was very fast. And then shots being shot above the house, or
2 some kind of an explosion happening above the house, as if something was
3 exploding, parts were being taken apart. And then I would see the shell
5 Q. But you told us that when you were on the balcony you saw what
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What did you see exactly?
9 A. I heard the sound, and I saw where the shell landed.
10 Q. Did you see the shell flying over your house?
11 A. No, I wasn't able to see it but only heard the sound.
12 Q. So witness you're telling us that you first heard something being
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then you heard over your house a sound?
16 A. Yes. I heard first a firing sound, and then above my house sort
17 of an explosion, and then buzzing again up until the time the shell
19 Q. When you're talking about the explosion or the firing that would
20 take place while it was still over your house, was it the same sound as
21 when you heard the shot being fired?
22 A. No, the sound was louder.
23 Q. Was it a sound that resembled something being fired, I mean the
24 sound that you heard when the projectile was fired, was that the same
25 sound that you heard while it was over your house?
1 A. No, it was a much louder sounds. It was a more strident sound.
2 Q. You mean over your house?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When you heard this --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I am aware that you're trying to
6 finish within the time indicated, but I think it goes a bit too quick at
7 this very moment.
8 Mrs. AK, the interpreters cannot follow you if you -- since you
9 are speaking the same language if you are just answering the question
10 immediately. So would you please take a tiny little pause before
11 answering the question.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. So you're telling us, Witness, that you heard a sound above your
14 house, and it was louder than the sound that you heard when this
15 projectile was fired?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you then tell us what was the weapon from which you heard this
18 projectile being fired?
19 A. I am not a military expert. I do not know from which weapon the
20 projectile was fired. But I know that during the aggression there were
21 those sounds. I am not an expert in weapons. I cannot give you a precise
23 Q. You talked to us about the aggression. Can you explain to us,
24 what do you mean by this word?
25 A. I shall try to do so. According to me, an aggression is what
1 happens when innocent civilians can feel and hear shots being fired. We
2 didn't know the reason for this. We didn't know why.
3 Q. Can you tell us who was shooting?
4 A. I believed that it was the JNA at the beginning of the war. Then
5 the VRS, and then the followers of Radovan Karadzic.
6 Q. Can you confirm to us if on the area of the city of Sarajevo the
7 BiH army was present?
8 A. I never met with the army. I was just a simple civilian.
9 Q. And what about your son? Was he a member of the army of the BiH?
10 A. Yes. But later he was drafted. The whole city was mobilised.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. President. That
12 would be all.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
14 Mr. Stamp, any need to re-examine the witness?
15 MR. STAMP: Just one or two.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
17 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:
18 Q. You indicated that the market was on Titova Street?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that the same as Marsal Tito Street?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you say where the market is in respect to -- may I phrase the
23 question this way: Do you know of Vuka Karadzica Street?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you say where the market is in respect to Vuka Karadzica
1 Street and Marsal Tito Street?
2 A. Right next to the market --
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter begins over.
4 A. From the market to the Karadzica Street, it's not very far.
5 MR. STAMP:
6 Q. How far from the market to Vuka Karadzica Street?
7 A. Approximately 400 to 500 metres.
8 Q. Now, where is the market in respect to both Vuka Karadzica Street
9 and Marsal Tito Street?
10 A. The market is on Marsal Tito Street and Karadzica -- Vuka
11 Karadzica Street is to the left.
12 Q. To the left facing where?
13 A. From the market left -- away from the market.
14 Q. Could you find Vuka Karadzica Street on that map and point to it.
15 I know you have problems with your glasses, but do your best.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid, Mr. Stamp, that the glasses might cause
17 some problems or whatever other circumstance. The Chamber would find it
18 acceptable if you ask for confirmation whether the street you just
19 mentioned is where it is indicated as such on the map. I don't know how
20 to do it. But I think we could...
21 MR. STAMP: Maybe I could try it this way:
22 Q. Have you found it, firstly? Have you?
23 A. No, I didn't find the street. But it is this area here, somewhere
24 here between Mejtas and -- it's somewhere here, but I just can't see it.
25 Q. Could you put the map on the ELMO, please. Could you find Marsal
1 Tito Street on that map and point to it, please.
2 A. [Indicates].
3 Q. Could you point -- have you found Marsal Tito Street?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I have to establish that the witness has
5 great difficulties in looking at this map. I do not exactly know for what
6 evidentiary purposes both parties have asked about the location of Markale
7 market. If it is to establish objectively where the Markale market was,
8 then perhaps we could find another solution. If it was in order to find
9 out whether the witness knew where the Markale market is, we have to face
10 the problem that she seems to have difficulties in finding her way on this
11 map. She might know, but quite apart from this map, where Markale market
12 is. So may I invite the parties to let me know what they actually wanted
13 to establish by putting these questions to the witness. Was it where the
14 Markale market is, or was it anything else?
15 MR. STAMP: That precisely is what I wanted to clarify, where the
16 Markale market is on the map. However, having regard to the observations
17 made by the Court, I think I could leave it at that. Because the witness
18 is really having difficulties, I perceive, reading that map.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it might even be possible that the parties
20 compromise on where the Markale market is.
21 MR. STAMP: Indeed. I hope that by some time next week we will
22 have agreed upon a map where certain landmarks or certain positions are
23 noted, for example, the tunnel which you, Mr. President --
24 JUDGE ORIE: For example, yes.
25 Ms. Pilipovic, any observation in this respect?
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my questions to the
2 witness regarding the marking of the location of the Markale market were
3 asked merely to check the credibility of the witness, to clarify the facts
4 related to the incident she claims she had seen, and seeing the smoke
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Okay. Mr. Stamp, may I understand that this concluded your
9 MR. STAMP: Re-examination.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. AK, since the Judges have no additional
13 questions to you, and since you've answered the questions both by the
14 Prosecution and the Defence, this concludes your testimony in this
15 courtroom. You'll understand that it's very important for this Court -- I
16 apologise. It's very important for this Court to hear the testimony of
17 those who were present at the relevant times and places to hear their
18 answers to the questions of the Prosecution and of the Defence.
19 So we thank you very much for coming here and making it possible
20 for us to take those decisions that we'll finally have to take. I know
21 it's quite something to come the whole way from Sarajevo to The Hague to
22 testify in this Court. We therefore thank you very much for having come
23 to us. And I wish you a safe journey home again. Thank you very much.
24 Yes. We'll then have a break until 25 minutes past 11.00.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 --- Recess taken at 10.54 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.27 a.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll first give a decision in respect of tape
4 2279A. Is there any observation to be made, Ms. Pilipovic?
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence
6 does not object to the tendering of this tape, but we wish to point out
7 that this is not an authentic tape either. It is also just a working
8 document. That is one thing that we wish to point out, that this is not
9 the authentic tape. But we do not object to its admission.
10 JUDGE ORIE: All right, then tape 2279A will be admitted into
11 evidence, but the Chamber notes that it has been played to the Chamber
12 only up to the scene of the morgue. So with this annotation, the tape is
13 then admitted into evidence.
14 Mr. Stamp, are you ready to call your next witness? That would
15 be -- yes, we still have to deal with the documents of the Witness AK.
16 Madam Registrar, could you please guide us.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3671 under seal, pseudonym sheet.
18 Exhibit P3666 under seal, map marked by witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. These two documents have now become
20 exhibits and are admitted into evidence.
21 Then Mr. Stamp, are you ready to call the next witness?
22 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That will be Witness AF, protective measures,
24 pseudonym, face, and voice distortion, if I'm well informed.
25 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Usher, could you please lead the
2 witness into the courtroom.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand? Yes,
5 can you hear me -- Mr. Usher, would you please put on the microphone.
6 Yes, seek the right channel. Yes. Can you hear me in a language you
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. AF, I will call you AF since this Chamber has
10 granted you protective measures in your respect. Mr. AF, before giving
11 testimony in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you
12 to make a solemn declaration. May I invite you to make that declaration
13 of which the text has been handed out to you by the usher.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
17 Mr. Usher, could you please point the microphones in such a way
18 that -- no, no, no. I'm mistaken. It's because of the voice alteration.
19 I apologise.
20 Mr. AF, you'll first be examined by the Prosecution, then by
21 counsel for the Defence; and if there are any additional questions by the
22 Judges, they will be put to you as well.
23 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.
24 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. May I proceed
25 with your leave, Mr. President and Your Honours, by asking the witness to
1 be shown Document P3667, and shown in such a manner that it is not
2 depicted or picked up on the camera.
3 WITNESS: WITNESS AF
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examined by Mr. Stamp:
6 Q. Now, witness --
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies.
8 Perhaps I wasn't following closely enough. Did the witness take the --
9 make the solemn declaration?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic, he did.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MR. STAMP:
13 Q. Now, Witness, without telling me what is actually written on the
14 document, could you just answer two questions for me, and just answer
15 "yes" or "no." On the document do you see your name written there?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. And do you see your date of birth written there as well?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind both counsel to put the microphone off
21 when the witness answers the question. Yes, to put it on when you put the
22 question; put it off when the witness answers it.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.
25 Q. Now, Witness AF, do you live in Sarajevo?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. And for how long have you lived there?
3 A. I was born there.
4 Q. And you have lived there since you were born there?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Now, there was a conflict which took place in Sarajevo between
7 1992 and 1995. Do you recall that?
8 A. Of course. Yes.
9 Q. And in the earlier part of the conflict, in 1992, did you join any
10 particular group?
11 A. Yes, the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 Q. And for how long did you serve in the army of the Republic of
14 A. Well, some seven or eight months. As a matter of fact, until my
15 wife got killed. And then, because I was a single father of a child
16 underage, I was relieved of all duties.
17 Q. Now, can you remember when your wife was killed?
18 A. On the 14th of October, 1993.
19 Q. Now, can you remember where you lived with your wife? The
20 district, not the precise address, just the area.
21 A. Yes. It was in the Stari Grad municipality, and that particular
22 neighbourhood was and is called Vratnik.
23 Q. In the vicinity of where you lived with your wife, and I take it
24 your child -- maybe I should ask the question, did your child also live
25 with you and your wife?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In this community of Vratnik where you lived with your wife and
3 child, were there any military positions in the immediate vicinity of
4 where you lived?
5 A. No.
6 Q. I would like you to tell the Court the circumstances in which your
7 wife got killed. Firstly by telling us about what time of the day did the
8 events occur.
9 A. It happened in daytime. I don't remember the exact hour. I don't
10 remember the hour, but it could have been between 12.00 and 2.00.
11 Q. Where were you at that time? Were you at the family home or were
12 you elsewhere?
13 A. At that time, I was at my wife's uncle, which are two houses below
14 the house in which my wife was killed.
15 Q. Now, your wife's uncle's house, which you said is two houses
16 below, how far in terms of distance is your wife's uncle's house from the
17 house in which your wife was killed?
18 A. About 15, 20 metres on the outside.
19 Q. What happened at the house in which your wife was killed?
20 A. Well, it was like this: The shell hit a house below the house in
21 which my wife was at the time. It hit the roof of that house, and
22 shrapnel got in through the window. And one of the pieces hit her here,
23 as they said, in the main artery. And as soon as that happened, I dashed
24 out of that house, that is, I had to run some 15, 20 metres. I was
25 barefoot, and I had to run over broken glass and shards. And as I entered
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that house, she was already losing consciousness. So I picked her up and
2 carried her out of the house, and a car happened to be around. So we
3 tried to take her to the hospital, to the main hospital at Kosevo.
4 Q. Could you stop there. The house in which she was at at the time,
5 whose house was it?
6 A. It was my father-in-law's house.
7 Q. Do you know if she was there alone?
8 A. No, she wasn't alone. Her mother was there. And my daughter was
9 there, too. Her mother was also hit, hit up here, but she did not suffer
10 any ill effects.
11 Q. Where was her mother hit?
12 A. The forehead.
13 Q. You said you tried to take her to the main hospital at Kosevo.
14 Did you manage to take her to the main hospital at Kosevo?
15 A. I managed to put her in that car, and we started down the street.
16 I reached a flat part, which is called Kovaci, but nobody could get
17 through there, because it was either a sniper or a pot, that is, an
18 anti-aircraft gun which was firing at it from Trebevic. So this crossroad
19 was closed. Nobody could pass through it.
20 Q. The sniper or anti-aircraft gun was firing at that street called
21 Kovaci, or firing into that street called Kovaci?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. You couldn't pass. So as a result, did you go anywhere instead
24 with your wife?
25 A. I couldn't get through, so I turned back to Vratnik where we had a
1 local infirmary. I mean it had been there for 15 or 20 years already.
2 Q. When you reached to that local infirmary, in what condition was
3 your wife?
4 A. Unfortunately, she had expired.
5 Q. At the time when you arrived there, had she yet expired
6 immediately at the time when you arrived there?
7 A. She died in my arms.
8 Q. You told us that shortly after that incident, you left the army.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you take up any particular occupation after you left the army?
11 A. Before the war, I worked as a taxi driver so that after that, I
12 resumed that job.
13 Q. Now, where did your parents live during the conflict?
14 A. They also lived in Stari Grad, in Sedrenik neighbourhood
15 community. Beneath -- at the foot of Spicasta Stijena. The locality is
16 known for that Spicasta Stijena.
17 Q. Now, your wider family, I mean outside of your immediate parents,
18 brothers, and sisters, were they in any way affected by the war in the
19 Sedrenik area?
20 A. Why, yes. Many of them. I cannot give you the number. But quite
21 a number of them were wounded and killed. It is an area where many
22 families have the same last name, over 20 households all sharing the same
23 surname. So they are all part of one extended family.
24 Q. Now, during the conflict in the period I would like to ask you to
25 direct your comments to, that is from September 1992 to August 1994, were
1 any civilian members of your wider family killed or injured in the
2 Sedrenik area?
3 A. Yes. My father was one of them. He was killed. My mother was
4 wounded. And she is an invalid for life.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, may I remind you that it's really
6 necessary to put your microphone off whenever the witness answers the
7 questions. It's of major importance for the effectiveness of the measures
8 you've sought.
9 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll bear that in mind.
10 Q. Apart from your mother and father, were there other civilian
11 members of your family that were killed or injured in the region in the
12 area of Sedrenik during that period?
13 A. Yes. For instance, my uncle's child, 9 and a half, 10 years old,
14 I'm not quite sure, was killed. And several elderly relatives of my
15 father's were also killed. And I don't think I should list all the
16 wounded because there's quite a number of them.
17 Q. What caused them to be killed or wounded?
18 A. My father was killed by a sniper. My mother was wounded by a
19 sniper. This little boy was killed by a shell. He was killed by a
21 Q. Where did the sniping into Sedrenik come from? Can you say from
22 which area?
23 A. From Spicasta Stijena.
24 Q. And the shelling, can you say approximately where the shelling
25 came from?
1 A. From behind Spicasta Stijena. It's called Mrkovici.
2 Q. The area of Spicasta Stijena where the sniping came from was under
3 the control of which party to the conflict? Do you know? Was it the
4 Bosnian Serb army or the army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
5 A. The army of Bosnian Serbs.
6 Q. And the area of Mrkovici, do you know which army controlled that
8 A. Serb troops were in Mrkovici.
9 Q. The area in Vratnik where you lived with your wife and child, do
10 you know where the shelling frequently or normally came from?
11 A. From the direction of Borije. It is a clearing, a clearing called
13 Q. Now, you told us that your father was killed by a sniper and your
14 mother was shot so that she is now an invalid for life. Were you there
15 when that happened?
16 A. No, I arrived later.
17 Q. Was that later the same day or another day?
18 A. Perhaps an hour after it happened, an hour and a half. Perhaps as
19 soon as I heard that it had happened, I went there.
20 Q. Do you have a sister?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Now, when you went to the area where your father was killed, were
23 you told about what happened?
24 A. My sister told me the whole story.
25 Q. Could you tell us what she told you happened.
1 A. Well, it was like this: Since there was no water in the house,
2 because a shell had hit the manhole with the water meter and everything
3 and destroyed it all, my father had to go every morning from our house to
4 our neighbour's house to bring water.
5 Q. Now, how old was your father at the time?
6 A. 57.
7 Q. Was he a member of any army?
8 A. No, he wasn't a member of any army. He was a pensioner.
9 Q. Now, you were interviewed by investigators of the office of the
10 Prosecutor in February 1996. Do you recall that?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. And do you recall drawing for them a small diagram indicating the
13 circumstances in which your father was shot?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your leave, I'd like
16 to hand to the witness Document P2424. And I respectfully ask that a
17 certain part of that document be covered. Just the part with the name.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed. Yes, that should be covered.
20 MR. STAMP:
21 Q. Is that document a copy of the map which you drew for the OTP
22 investigator in 1996 -- of the diagram, I beg your pardon, of which you
24 A. It is.
25 MR. STAMP: Could the diagram be placed on the ELMO, with your
1 leave, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so, Mr. Usher.
3 MR. STAMP:
4 Q. Witness, there's a pointer there in front of you. I'd like you to
5 point to the structure on the drawing which is marked by number 1 on the
7 A. [Indicates].
8 Q. What does that indicate? Could you tell us, please.
9 A. That is the house where my parents lived.
10 Q. Now, on the map, on the diagram, there is a structure marked by a
11 number 2. Could you point to that, please.
12 A. [indicates].
13 Q. And what does the number 2 structure indicate?
14 A. That is my neighbour's house.
15 Q. On the top of the map -- of the diagram, you have a number 3
16 marked there. What does that indicate?
17 A. These are the positions of the Serb army.
18 Q. Which area is that indicating?
19 A. It's part of Spicasta Stijena.
20 Q. Approximately how far was that area from your house?
21 A. Well, about a hundred, 150, maybe as much as 200 metres more or
22 less. I can't tell you exactly.
23 Q. On the diagram you have, you had drawn a number 4. What does that
24 number 4 indicate?
25 A. It indicates where the water fountain was.
1 Q. And between that water fountain marked 4 and the house of your
2 neighbour marked 2, you wrote 3M. What does that indicate?
3 A. That is the distance from the house to the water fountain, and the
4 distance is in metres. So it's about 3 metres.
5 Q. You said that your father would go to fetch water. Would he go to
6 fetch water at the water fountain that you have depicted marked number 4?
7 A. He would go there every morning. He will go to get water every
8 morning, and he would take this same route that's indicated on the
9 sketch. There's a road actually from -- a little path from my house to
10 the water fountain.
11 Q. Now, on the day that your father was killed, what happened?
12 A. He had left the house to go towards the water fountain,
13 the path that is drawn on the sketch. When he arrived to the water
14 fountain, the sniper from Spicasta Stijena hit him. He was able to call
15 my mother. My mother and my sister ran along that same pathway to help
16 him. Unfortunately, -- or rather, however, my sister ran first. She was
17 able to get to this house that's indicated with the number 2. But
18 unfortunately my mother was hit by the sniper bullet at the spot that's
19 indicated with the number 5.
20 Q. Where was your mother hit? What part of her body was she hit at?
21 A. She was hit in the leg above the knee, the upper portion of the
23 Q. And where was your father hit? In what part of his body, that
25 A. He was hit in the stomach.
1 Q. After your mother was shot, what happened?
2 A. She was able to make it to the house that's indicated with the
3 number 2. Then the sister started to call the neighbour, and those
4 cousins that were there, the relatives that were there that were able to
5 hear, they really came right away. One of them managed to run across,
6 because there was firing in a nonstop fashion from Spicasta Stijena.
7 Q. This firing in a nonstop fashion was fired towards where?
8 A. Towards the spot where my father was and towards, let's say, the
9 structure indicated with a number 2. It was really directed towards that
11 Q. What happened after your neighbours came out?
12 A. One of my relatives was able to run across that area that's
13 indicated from house number 1 going to house number 2. So it's about 15
14 metres. The distance is about 15 metres from one house to the other. He
15 saw that my father didn't give any signs of life, didn't show any signs of
16 life. And he probably just assumed that he had died on the spot. He
17 started, therefore, to help my mother. I don't know how, but they were
18 able to stop the haemorrhage. They were able to press on her leg. And
19 then two more relatives came over. They ran over.
20 They put my mother on a blanket, and at the very moment when they
21 were crossing, or while they were carrying my wounded mother on that
22 blanket, while they were trying to bring her to a car that was ready to
23 bring her to the hospital, I draw on this sketch the area. So it's right
24 here. There's sort of a small hill. I don't know how to explain it to
25 you really. There's a sort of a boundary. And right there, the sniper
1 fire was being heard again. The sniper started shooting again at that
2 very moment while they were carrying my mother on that blanket. Everybody
3 fell down.
4 Q. Just for the record, he pointed to a spot on the map -- on the
5 diagram, which is a line ending with two arrows, one of them pointing to
6 the number 5.
7 After the shooting continued to this area where they were trying
8 to carry your mother to, what happened?
9 A. When the fire was opened, they all fell down to the ground.
10 Fortunately, they were able to carry away my mother and nobody was
11 wounded. They actually brought her to the hospital. And once again,
12 somebody had to run towards my father to pull him out of there. One of my
13 relatives ran away -- ran across, and he found in that house a sort of a
14 plastic cover. From the house number 1, somebody threw to him a very long
15 rope. He placed my father on that plastic, and he tied him. He tied the
16 rope to the plastic, and he was able to pull my father to the other side.
17 My father had already died.
18 Q. During this time, did the fire from Spicasta Stijena stop, or did
19 it continue?
20 A. During all that time, they were firing from Spicasta Stijena.
21 Q. Now, I'd like you to --
22 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, hand to the witness
23 Exhibit P3131.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please assist Mr. Stamp, Mr. Usher.
25 MR. STAMP: Now, before it is handed to him, there is a photograph
1 marked 2 at the bottom right of that photograph. I'd ask if the side view
2 of a face be covered.
3 Q. Do you recall being in the area of your parents' house with
4 investigators from the OTP in March of 1996?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did these investigators take photographs of the area?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I would like you briefly to tell us what each of these photographs
9 depict. First, have a look at the photograph numbered 1. If you could
10 put it on the ELMO, please.
11 A. This is Spicasta Stijena.
12 Q. Where on this photograph is Spicasta Stijena?
13 A. This is what we call Spicasta Stijena.
14 MR. STAMP: For the record, Mr. President, Your Honours, the
15 witness pointed to a line of trees going across the middle of the
17 Q. Towards the bottom of the photograph, there is a wooden
18 structure. And that is in the foreground towards the bottom of the
19 photograph. What is that?
20 A. It's the fence of the house in which my neighbour lived.
21 Q. Is this a house marked 2 on the diagram?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Have a look at photograph number 2. Again, what does this
24 photograph depict?
25 A. This is also the house of my neighbour, and we also see Spicasta
1 Stijena again.
2 Q. And could you point to where Spicasta Stijena is?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. STAMP: Again, for the record, the witness points to a line of
5 trees going across the middle of the map [sic] from the right to
6 approximately the centre of the map [sic]. And if I should correct
7 myself, it's a photograph clearly, not a map.
8 Q. Could you have a look at photograph number 3. What does that
9 depict, please?
10 A. This is where my neighbour's houses are, and we can see a path
11 going -- road actually going to Mrkovici. It's the road that, before the
12 war, one would take to go to Mrkovici.
13 Q. Could you point to that road, please.
14 A. Yes. This is it.
15 Q. Could you do so again, a little bit more slowly, please.
16 A. [Indicates].
17 MR. STAMP: The witness indicates to be the road what appears on
18 photograph number 3 to be a white line goes across the middle of the map
19 [sic] from about the centre of the map [sic] to the right. I keep saying
20 "map;" photograph.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, could you perhaps please clarify. I
22 saw the witness making movement from right to approximately the centre of
23 the photograph, and then back to the right again uphill. It's not clear
24 from your description whether you mentioned just one part or the two
25 parts. Could you please clarify this with the witness.
1 MR. STAMP:
2 Q. Could you point again to the road and slowly move the pointer
3 along that road as it is on photograph number 3.
4 A. [Indicates].
5 MR. STAMP: I think the witness has indicated a line running from
6 a wooded area to the middle of the extreme right of the map [sic], across
7 the right of the map [sic] to the bottom of a slope.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I still have some doubt on whether this is a clear
9 description for the transcript. Would it assist you if I would try to
10 describe what was indicated by the witness, as starting at the very
11 right-hand side of the picture, approximately one-third from below a thin
12 white line, going from there to the left, ending approximately in the
13 middle of the picture. Then turning sharply to the right going uphill, up
14 to where a few trees can be seen approximately in the middle of the
15 photograph at the very right-hand side of that photograph.
16 MR. STAMP: I am very grateful, Mr. President.
17 Q. And could you have a look now at photograph number 4. What does
18 this photograph show on it?
19 A. Those are the houses of my neighbours, and over the treetops, we
20 can see Spicasta Stijena.
21 MR. STAMP: I don't know, Mr. President, if I need to make any
22 description for the record. I think that should be pretty clear.
23 Q. Could you please look at photograph number 5. Is this a -- could
24 you just tell us what this photograph depicts.
25 A. This photograph depicts houses, and we can also see once again the
1 road going on to Mrkovici.
2 Q. To the left of that photograph is a wooded area. Where is that
3 area? What is that area called?
4 A. It depicts the area of Sedam Suma, seven forests, seven woods.
5 Q. Just for the right of the photograph, from top to bottom of the
6 photograph, there is another wooded area. What does that depict, can you
8 A. It also depicts this larger area that we used to the seven woods
9 or the seven forests; in the original language, Sedam Suma.
10 Q. And photograph number 6, have a quick look at that one. The
11 structure in the foreground to the right, that is what, can you say?
12 A. This is a fence surrounding my neighbour's house.
13 Q. And in the middle of the photograph, there is a wooded area.
14 Where is that, can you say?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What is that wooded area called?
17 A. Sedam Suma, seven woods.
18 Q. Could you have a look at photograph number 7. Whose house is
20 A. This is the shed right next to my parents' house.
21 Q. And beyond that, there's a line of trees in the background going
22 across the middle of the photograph. Where is that?
23 A. It's behind my house, and we see once again Spicasta Stijena at
24 the very top of the picture.
25 Q. Could you point on the map [sic] to where you see Spicasta
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. STAMP: For the record, the witness points to an area in the
4 background running in the middle of the map [sic] to the right, a wooded
5 area in the background of the map [sic] running from about the middle of
6 the map [sic] to the right middle of the map [sic].
7 Q. And photograph number 8, could you have a look at that, please.
8 What does this photograph indicate?
9 A. Once again, this is the house of my parents, my neighbours, and
10 relatives, and we also see Spicasta Stijena.
11 Q. On this photograph could you point if you can the house of your
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, before asking the witness to do so,
14 wouldn't you think that this could or might affect the protective
15 measures? If you want his identity to be kept secret, I can imagine that
16 pointing to it on a picture instead of describing it might make the
17 protective measures less effective.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if you could do it not on the ELMO, and ask
20 the witness perhaps to describe the house in such a way that we can follow
21 it, if you see the picture. But that it could not be --
22 MR. STAMP: Broadcast.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well I think the text will be broadcasted,
24 but if you say three houses with a red roof and one with a black roof,
25 which not true, it might be understandable for anyone with a pictures in
1 his hands and not understandable by anyone without a picture. Could you
2 please try guide to the witness in whatever way, let's say by counting
3 houses or whatever manner you used.
4 Mr. AF, I suggested to Mr. Stamp that you not point at the house
5 of your parents on a screen on a picture because this might make your
6 protection less effective. And perhaps guide you in another way how to
7 indicate the house of your parents. Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
8 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
9 Q. You heard His Honour, Mr. President. Could you describe as best
10 you can the position where your parents' house is on this map -- on this
12 A. We cannot see it on this picture.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That solved the problem, Mr. Stamp.
14 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
15 Q. Could you describe the position of -- well, may I ask this first:
16 Is your neighbour's house, the house which you marked on the diagram
17 number 2, on this map -- on this photograph?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Now, the area on these maps -- on these photographs which
20 you describe as Spicasta Stijena, was this the area from which the firing
21 came when your father was killed and your mother was incapacitated?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, may I just ask you, because we changed the
24 sequence of breaks a bit, how much time would you still need approximately
25 so that I would know whether to have a break now or perhaps after you
1 concluded your examination-in-chief.
2 MR. STAMP: 10 to 15 minutes would be.
3 JUDGE ORIE: 10 to 15 minutes. I then suggest that we continue
4 for another 10 minutes, have then a break of 20 minutes, and then
6 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President. As it pleases you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. If this is, of course, acceptable
8 for all three booths, the second part which usually takes one hour and a
9 half would then take approximately five quarters of an hour.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
11 MR. STAMP:
12 Q. Now, the date that your father was shot and killed, can you
13 remember that date?
14 A. 31st of March, 1993.
15 Q. Now, in the immediate vicinity of your parents' home, are there
16 any military positions there?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I wish to take you now to the 5th of February, 1994. At around
19 mid-day on that day, did you go anywhere in particular?
20 A. What am I to say now? Coming from Vratnik. Well, I came from
21 Vratnik every day, because there I used to live with my wife, and I would
22 go to my parents' house.
23 Q. Did you go to your parents' house on the 5th of February, 1994?
24 A. Yes, that day, I was in the garden washing the car.
25 Q. At about what time were you in the garden washing the car?
1 A. It was around noon, that is, around 12.00.
2 Q. While you were in the garden washing the car, did you hear
4 A. Could you clarify your question, please.
5 Q. While you were in the garden washing the car, did anything happen
6 that you recall?
7 A. Why, yes. One could hear -- one could hear a shot being fired
8 from -- I suppose from some heavy weapon.
9 Q. Where did the sound of a shot of a heavy weapon come from in
10 respect -- well, just tell us where did that sound come from?
11 A. From behind Spicasta Stijena.
12 Q. Do you know which community is behind Spicasta Stijena?
13 A. Mrkovici.
14 Q. Can you say at approximately what time you heard this shot from a
15 heavy weapon coming from behind Spicasta Stijena?
16 A. Well, it was around there. Could have been between 12.00 and half
17 past approximately.
18 Q. Now, you said you had been in the army. Had you heard heavy
19 weapons being fired before?
20 A. Of course. Yes.
21 Q. Did you hear while you were in the army these heavy weapons being
22 fired frequently or infrequently?
23 A. Well, excuse me, which army? Which troops do you have in mind?
24 Q. Any troop. Any army, any troop, did you hear heavy weapons being
25 fired while you were in the army?
1 A. While I was a member of the Yugoslav People's Army in 1984, then I
2 heard it.
3 Q. From your experience in the Yugoslav army and early in the army of
4 the conflict of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, can you say what
5 was the sound that you heard coming from behind Spicasta Stijena sound
7 A. Well, it sounded like some -- like some blow from a barrel. I
8 don't really know how to explain it. One could hear it being fired.
9 Q. Did the sound sound like any particular weapon to you, from your
11 A. Well, I would say a mortar.
12 Q. Now, there are heavy mortars, medium-sized mortars, and light
13 mortars. Did it sound like any one of these types of mortars? Could you
15 A. No, I don't think I can answer that.
16 Q. Now, shortly after you heard the sound being fired from behind
17 Spicasta Stijena, did you hear anything else?
18 A. Well, from the moment when it was fired, and within some 10 to 15
19 seconds -- I'm not sure -- one could hear a detonation in the town.
20 Q. Now, did you hear any other shells fired in that area at around
21 that time that day?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you eventually go into the town?
24 A. Well, after -- after perhaps half an hour, an hour, after I put my
25 car in order, I went to my taxi stop, to my taxi stand.
1 Q. And is your taxi stand in the urban part of Sarajevo, the built-up
2 part of Sarajevo?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And when you went to the taxi stand, did you hear what had
5 happened at the Markale market that day?
6 A. Well, because this taxi stand is right next to Markale, then of
7 course I heard from fellow taxi drivers what had happened.
8 Q. When you went to your parents' house, your mother's house in
9 Sedrenik that day, for what purpose did you go there for?
10 A. Why, to see my parents, of course. Simply I don't know of any
11 more important reason.
12 Q. Was your father alive at that time?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So I take it you went to see your mother. About how often would
15 you visit your mother during that period of early 1994, late 1993?
16 A. Since she had been severely wounded, I went to see her every day.
17 She was bedridden for a year.
18 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
19 MR. STAMP: That, Mr. President, Your Honours, is the
20 examination-in-chief of this witness. May it please you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
22 Mr. AF, we'll first have a break of 20 minutes, and then you'll be
23 examined by counsel for the Defence.
24 Ms. Pilipovic, may I ask you -- I know that you're always trying
25 hard to be as efficient and effective as possible. We all know it's
1 Friday. We also know that next week, it will be the time for the
2 videolink. May I just ask you to see whether it would be possible to
3 conclude the examination of this witness today. I'm just asking, you
4 understand. But you're fully entitled to perform your task as good as you
5 can. But --
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I expect,
7 though, that I shall be met with understanding if it takes 5 or 10 minutes
8 longer than our working hours, that is, quarter to 2.00.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your assistance. We'll then
10 have a break until five minutes past 1.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, you would like to address the Court.
14 MR. STAMP: Yes. Just briefly, may I beg your permission and your
15 special indulgence, notwithstanding I said the examination-in-chief had
16 ended, just to ask a couple of questions and put a document to the
17 witness. It would just take two minutes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you know that I urged Ms. Pilipovic to...
19 Please go ahead.
20 MR. STAMP:
21 Q. Witness, at the same time the photographs you were shown were
22 taken, that is, on the 27th of February, 1996, did you also mark a map for
23 the investigators of the OTP?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Did you mark on that map the approximate location of your mother's
2 A. I did.
3 Q. Did you also mark on that map the approximate location of Spicasta
5 A. I did.
6 Q. If you saw that map again, would you be able to identify it?
7 A. I would.
8 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, Your Honours, could
9 the witness be shown P3668 with a part of the name covered.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. STAMP: Could the map be placed on the ELMO, please.
12 Q. Could you point out for us the approximate location -- or may I
13 put it this way: Could you point out for us a place on the map which you
14 marked as the approximate location of your mother's house.
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. STAMP: For the record, the witness points to a small X in the
17 upper right corner of the map just above where it says "Sedrenik" on the
19 Q. Could you also point out where you marked for the OTP
20 investigators the positions of the VRS, the Bosnian Serbian army at
21 Spicasta Stijena.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Go ahead.
24 A. [Indicates].
25 Q. Is that the area where there's a line drawn laterally across the
1 map with four circles above it?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
5 Then now, Mr. AF, you'll be cross-examined by counsel for the
7 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Can you tell us in which part of Sarajevo did you live in prior to
13 the conflict in 1992?
14 A. In Stari Grad, municipality of Stari Grad.
15 Q. Was Vratnik part of the municipality of Stari Grad?
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. So did you live in Vratnik?
18 A. After the war broke out, I moved over to my father-in-law's
19 because at Sedrenik, I lived in a small house where I was not safe. And I
20 didn't think that my child and my wife would be safe there. And that is
21 why I moved over to Vratnik.
22 Q. Can you tell us, after the conflict broke out in 1992, when did
23 you join the BH army?
24 A. Well, perhaps a month before the mobilisation.
25 Q. And when was the mobilisation?
1 A. I'm not sure.
2 Q. And when did you join the BH army, which month of 1992?
3 A. I think it was May.
4 Q. And that May 1992 when you joined the BH army, which military
5 formation did you join?
6 A. I think it was 15th Mountain or something. I can't exactly
8 Q. When you say "15th Mountain," do you mean a brigade?
9 A. More or less I'm saying -- I'm telling you I'm not sure. I know
10 it was something mountain. Whether it was 15 or something, I've no idea.
11 Q. Where did you report, to which part of the city and where was the
12 command post of this 15 mountain brigade when you reported there?
13 A. Could you repeat the question, please.
14 Q. Where was the command post of the 15th of Mountain Brigade where
15 you reported and asked to join? When you joined the BH army, where was
17 A. Well, there was headquarters in some garage or something at
18 Vratnik, something sort of headquarters. It was just a plain garage.
19 Q. Can you tell us whether this garage was in the building where
20 people lived, that is, was it a residential building or an office
21 building? In what building was the garage?
22 A. It was in a yard next to a house, next to a building.
23 Q. And who was the commander of that 15th Mountain Brigade?
24 A. I'm not sure.
25 Q. Since you say that was at Vratnik, where were the positions at
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Vratnik of that brigade which you belonged to? If it is easier for you,
2 I'll give you a map.
3 A. Just a moment. As a soldier, I never went to any of the
4 positions, to any of the front lines, as a soldier.
5 Q. What was your role as a soldier?
6 A. Why, we guarded -- we stood night watch around some streets.
7 Q. Can you tell us which are the streets where you stood watch?
8 A. You mean the names?
9 Q. Yes. In which part of the locality?
10 A. Well, in Vratnik, on all streets. There would be two men
11 responsible for doing rounds of these streets to see that nobody gets in
12 there after the curfew.
13 Q. What kind of weapons did you have when you used to guard?
14 A. At that time, I had a make-shift pistol made of a water pipe in to
15 which only one hunting bullet could fit.
16 Q. And other members who -- other soldiers who stood watch, what kind
17 of weapons did they have?
18 A. In the early days, that was all. There could have been one or two
19 pistols in that group that I was with. And that was personal weapons, but
20 I didn't have any.
21 Q. What kind of uniform did you have?
22 A. Civilian.
23 Q. You say those were civilian uniforms. Did you have any patches,
24 anything to show that you were a member of the army?
25 A. No, not at that time. I had nothing.
1 Q. And where were you issued with those, that is, with the uniform
2 and some insignia to be identified by as members of the BH army?
3 A. After that, since I had my car, and there was a shortage of diesel
4 fuel, so I was reattached to the staff which was next to the department
5 store in Sarajevo. It was then that I was issued with a uniform, and we
6 then guarded -- or rather, we guarded the entrance. We took shifts to
7 check who goes into the building, who comes out of the building, something
8 like a janitor.
9 Q. And you could tell us, this headquarters where you reported, where
10 you were issued with the uniform and placed your vehicle at the disposal
11 of the army, whose headquarters was it?
12 A. Of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 Q. Was it the chief headquarters of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Was it the headquarters of the 1st Corps?
16 A. I'm not sure. No, it wasn't.
17 Q. Can you tell us what military formation had this headquarters
19 A. I've no idea.
20 Q. Witness, you made the declaration that you would be speaking the
21 truth. Can you tell us what kind of identification card did you have on
22 the basis of which you went -- you reported to that? What did this card
23 say? What formation was it?
24 A. I really can't remember. The cards said the army of
1 Q. Since you said that you had placed your car at the disposal of the
2 BH army, what did you do with that vehicle? Did you use it and for what
3 purposes did you use it in the service of the BH army?
4 A. I was meant to use the car, but as of the moment when I was
5 mobilised to that unit, the vehicle never left the compound. I only
6 worked there as a night watch, at the door.
7 Q. And that was what street and which building?
8 A. Next to the department store. It was Vranica, across the street
9 from the prison.
10 Q. And which part of the city of Sarajevo is it where the Vranica
11 enterprise was?
12 A. Centar.
13 Q. When you say Centar, what street?
14 A. Titova on one side.
15 Q. And on the other?
16 A. I don't know what it was called, whether it was the JNA, whether
17 it was the JNA Street or the street of the JNA.
18 Q. Was it in the part of -- was in the locality called Cengic Vila?
19 A. No.
20 Q. How long did you -- how much time did you spend at the positions
21 where the headquarters was?
22 A. I would be on a 12-hour duty, and then I would have I think three
23 days off. Because we were I think eight to ten men, so we took shifts of
24 12 hours.
25 Q. That building, was it a residential or an office building or a
1 commercial building?
2 A. It was a commercial building, I think.
3 Q. In addition to the eight of you who guarded this building, how
4 many other troops were there?
5 A. I wouldn't know exactly.
6 Q. Which commanders came to that headquarters?
7 A. I don't know their names.
8 Q. How long -- you said it was until October 1993 when your wife fell
9 victim. Did you go there every day during the time, or depending on your
10 assignment schedule?
11 A. Well, depending on the schedule.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the
13 Defence would like to show the witness the map 3668, which is the
14 Prosecution's exhibit.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness AF, you have in front of the map -- the map where you
18 identified the Sedrenik, the house of your parents, and the place of the
19 position called Spicasta Stijena. Can you --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
21 MR. STAMP: May I, with your leave, just check something on that
22 map. Could it be removed from the ELMO immediately.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I mentioned that you think that the yellow sticker
24 should be a bit further down as well. Is that --
25 MR. STAMP: Yes, there is an area that I think should be covered
1 as well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we please enlarge the area covered by a
3 yellow sticker a bit down.
4 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Witness, will you please mark the place where the headquarters of
8 the military formation was. You say you don't know what it was called,
9 where you stood guard. Will you please take the black marker and circle
10 it. And will you put number 1.
11 Witness AF, can you read maps at all?
12 A. Well, I'm not much of a strategic expert, but I'll try.
13 Q. Well, being a taxi driver, you must know the streets in Sarajevo.
14 A. Yes, madam, but it was six or seven years ago and many streets
15 have changed.
16 Q. I only want to ask you to circle place where the headquarters
18 A. Well, it is roughly somewhere here.
19 Q. Will you please place 1 there and tell us what is that area
20 called, the one that you've circled.
21 A. Well, you can see some buildings between the former Misirbina and
22 Titova Streets.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, Your Honour,
24 the witness has circled as the location of the headquarters of the
25 military formation he belonged to, where he worked, according to the
1 witness on the corner of Marsal Tito Street, and the other street.
2 Q. Witness, what was the name of the other street, for the record?
3 A. Misirbina and Titova.
4 Q. And he has put number 1 in the circle.
5 A. It is only approximately.
6 Q. Witness, you say you would have two or three days off. Do you
7 have any knowledge if in the area of Vratnik or Kovaci localities, that
8 1993, the 2nd Mountain Brigade of the army of the BH had its positions?
9 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
10 Q. Do you know where the positions were in relation to the locality
11 of Vratnik where you lived of the army of BH and the army of Republika
13 A. They were in the part of the city which is behind the Vratnik,
14 which is called Ophodza.
15 Q. Will you draw it on the map. Will you mark the positions of the
16 BH army and the army of Republika Srpska.
17 A. [Marks].
18 Q. If it's possible, please circle that area which is part of the
19 Vratnik neighbourhood.
20 A. [Marks].
21 Q. If you could please mark a number 2 right inside that circle.
22 A. [Marks].
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness
24 indicated with a number 2 --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, it's important for the transcript that
1 we describe whatever a witness did if it leaves no traces on the
2 photograph or on the map. But if you invite the witness to mark a circle
3 with a 2, everyone will later see the circle and the 2. So if you just
4 confirm that the witness marked a circle with a 2, it's not necessary any
5 more to describe the area because everyone can see where it is later on on
6 the map. So it's only if what the witness did leaves no traces that it is
7 necessary to describe precisely what he did for the transcript.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President...
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could you please move your microphone
10 a bit upwards and --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Place it on the plastic thing.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's even suggested that you place it on the --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The protective measures, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It's caused by the protective measures that they have
15 difficulties in hearing you. Please proceed.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. AF, could you within that circle indicated with a number 2
19 tell us where the positions of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were and
20 where the VRS positions were?
21 A. They were inside -- they were not inside the circle.
22 Q. Well, if they were outside the circle, could you tell us if they
23 were, in fact, outside the circle?
24 A. Ophodza are not on this map.
25 Q. How far are or were the positions of the BH army from the circle
1 that you've indicated?
2 A. They are in Ophodza, in that neighbourhood, so that's what the
3 difference is. In metres, I couldn't really tell you.
4 Q. Approximately?
5 A. Well, approximately -- I don't know. I wouldn't really want to
6 give an approximate evaluation. I will show it to you on the map if you
7 have a map that shows Ophodza.
8 Q. Do you know if in the area of Borije and of this place for which
9 you say is called Ophodza were there any fights between those two armies?
10 A. I really don't know.
11 Q. Can you tell us, in regards to this circle, how far is Borije from
12 this circle?
13 A. I don't want to cause any confusion whatsoever in giving you the
14 wrong measurements. If you do have a map with Borije and Ophodza, I will
15 show it to you on that map. I do not wish to give you too much or too
16 less --
17 Q. Can you give us an estimate in terms of kilometres?
18 A. Really, I couldn't.
19 Q. On the day when your wife perished, can you tell us if in that
20 part of the city some fightings were going on?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Could you tell us at what time this took place?
23 A. About noon.
24 Q. In 1993, did you ever hear that some fightings were going on in
25 that part of the city?
1 A. We would hear shots, shelling took place from Borije. We could
2 hear it and we could also see it with the naked eye.
3 Q. When you said that this was easy to see, from which vantage point
4 were you able to see this?
5 A. Well, approximately let's say -- actually who was brave enough to
6 go behind Vratnik? There is an old tower, and from this tower it was very
7 easy with the naked eye to see Borije.
8 Q. Since you're telling us that you were able to see Borije, you also
9 said that Borije was under the control of the VRS, can you then tell us if
10 Ophodza was closer to Vratnik or was it closer to Borije?
11 A. Ophodza is located between Borije and Vratnik.
12 Q. So therefore you're telling us that the ABiH positions were closer
13 to Vratnik than to Borije where the VRS positions were?
14 A. Could you please repeat your question.
15 Q. So you're telling us that Ophodza was held by the BH army; you're
16 telling us it was closer to Vratnik, that area was closer to Vratnik than
17 to Borije?
18 A. Ophodza is closer to Vratnik than it is to Borije.
19 Q. Can you tell us, therefore, how far were they distanced from one
20 another, those two armies? What was the distance between the two?
21 A. I really wouldn't be able to tell you.
22 Q. How often did the shelling occur from Borije in the direction of
23 the area of Vratnik?
24 A. On a daily basis.
25 Q. When you say "on a daily basis," are you talking about shells that
1 were fired and also were there any other projectiles being fired? Did you
2 hear any other shots?
3 A. What do you mean? I don't know how to answer to this question.
4 Q. When you would hear these projectiles being fired from the Borije
5 areas you said, would you be able to hear some other weapons fire as you
6 said that you could hear firing but were there any other weapons involved?
7 A. No, only that. I don't know what weapons are you talking about
8 exactly? Are you talking about rifles and that kind of weapons?
9 Q. First of all, tell us, you said that you heard that some
10 projectiles were fired. From what kind of weaponry?
11 A. From heavy weaponry.
12 Q. Were you able to hear if some shots were also fired from a
13 lighter -- from some lighter weaponry?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Coming from that direction, did you ever hear some light weaponry
17 A. No, I don't remember. No.
18 Q. You don't remember or you never heard such a thing?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. If we're talking about the time when your wife died, you said that
21 during that period you were a member of the army of BiH. How often would
22 you go to the area where your parents lived?
23 A. On a daily basis.
24 Q. You've marked an area with a cross, it's the area where your
25 parents lived. Do you know if the 105th Motorised Brigade of the BH
1 army was located there?
2 A. I know that the army was located in that area.
3 Q. Can you confirm to us whether the positions of the 105th
4 Motorised Brigade were in the area of Grdonj and Sedam Suma?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you show us on this map that position, the positions therefore
7 of Grdonj, Sedam Suma, the seven woods, and Streziste?
8 A. You want me to write it down, mark it down.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, would you please tell
10 Ms. Pilipovic to put her microphone on the plastic because we can't hear
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please put your microphone
13 on the plastic -- or if the usher would help Ms. Pilipovic to put the
14 microphone closer to her face. It's all caused by the protective
15 measures. It's not your fault.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we're facing these difficulties. If you would
18 perhaps for the remaining minutes bend over to the microphone very
19 precise. I know that I'm asking you perhaps too much, and that it will
20 disturb your concentration on what you're doing. But unfortunately the --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. AF, can you please indicate on the map the positions of the
24 105th Motorised Brigade located in the area of Sedam Suma, seven woods,
25 Grdonj, and Streziste?
1 A. I can tell you where mark down where Grdonj, Streziste is.
2 Q. Yes, you can do that.
3 A. On the left-hand side, these four circles are Grdonj and to the
4 right you have Streziste.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, there is a
6 line drawn above Sedam Suma, and to the right there's a right line, and
7 that indicates the area of Streziste. The line to the left where Sedam
8 Suma is also where Grdonj is. Did I understand you correctly?
9 A. Yes, it's written here. Grdonj.
10 Q. You've marked this down with respect to Spicasta Stijena now. Can
11 you tell us that it is between Spicasta Stijena -- no Grdonj, Streziste
12 and Sedam Suma?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell us if in 1993 and 1994 in that area, if fightings
15 took place between the 105th Motorised Brigade and the members of the VRS?
16 A. In 1992 and 1993?
17 Q. 1992, 1993, up until the month of August 1994. Could you tell us
18 for that period of time if that was the case?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How often were those fightings going on, what frequency?
21 A. I really don't know.
22 Q. Can you tell us how far were the front lines, one from the other?
23 A. To tell you the truth, I've never been there. I've never gone to
24 the field at that spot, so I can't really tell you where it is and how far
25 they were.
1 Q. You told us that members of your family died during the conflict.
2 Can you tell us if those members who died were also members of the 105th
4 A. From the members of the family, from my family who died, no.
5 Q. Were there any able-bodied men in your family?
6 A. Only myself.
7 Q. Can you tell us if in 1992, 1993, 1994, the front lines ever
8 changed in that part of Sedrenik where the 105th Motorised Brigade was?
9 A. I don't know.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the
11 Defence would like to submit to the witness some photographs. P3131 is
12 the document in question.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. Ms. Pilipovic. May I assume
14 that somewhere in the next 10 or 12 minutes, you'd be able to conclude the
15 cross-examination? You said a few minutes extra.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, I will
17 try to do my best.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because you'll understand that it's not because
19 I'm becoming impatient, but I have to take care of those who assist us in
20 the booth as well. And I think all those in the booth are aware that they
21 are on a Friday, and the consequences of not being able to finish this
22 cross-examination. But when I do not hear any loud objections at this
23 very moment, I assume -- I hope at least that we can continue.
24 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
1 Q. Witness, please look at picture number 2. Can you confirm to us
2 if we see here Spicasta Stijena, if that's the general area?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us, where were the positions of the VRS and what
5 military formation was here?
6 A. It was all over Spicasta Stijena on it. Now, as regards for the
7 formation, I really couldn't tell you.
8 Q. Would you be able to tell us, if you look at picture number 3, in
9 what direction is it towards the north, south, east, or west, that
10 Spicasta Stijena lies?
11 A. It is to the left side of the photograph.
12 Q. Therefore, that would be in the westerly direction?
13 A. [No audible response].
14 Q. You said that the Sedam Suma, the seven woods, is also there on
15 this hill?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: Could I just ask that the question be re-asked --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 MR. STAMP: Could I ask that we get oral answers from the witness
21 in respect to the question that he's asked.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps Mr. AF, if you nod, it cannot be
23 translated. It will not be in the transcript. So would you please answer
24 the questions. And Ms. Pilipovic, if you ask whether Spicasta Stijena is
25 on the north, west, east, or the south, could you please indicate to the
1 north, the south, or the west or east of what exactly? Because I mean
2 every place in the world is always to the east, to the north, to the
3 south, and to the west of another place.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Witness, would you be able to tell us what is the hill that we
6 see on this photograph?
7 A. Are you talking about this hill without any trees? It does not
8 represent anything. It used to be a wooded hill. But people needed to
9 cut wood.
10 Q. We do see a bare hill here behind Sedam Suma, seven woods.
11 A. Yes, I suppose that this is where it begins. It begins from
12 there. It's a very large region. The seven woods' area is quite large.
13 Q. When you talk to us about the left part of the wooded area for
14 which you say that seven woods lies, Sedam Suma, you said that your house
15 was there. But is Spicasta Stijena also on that part, on that side?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If I understood you correctly, you told us that Sedam Suma was
18 under the control of the ABiH, and as to Spicasta Stijena, that you've
19 identified to us was under the control of the VRS. Can you, therefore,
20 confirm if in that area there were fightings going on between those two
22 A. I couldn't really confirm this to you because I do not know. I
23 did not live there. Do you understand me? I used to live in Vratnik.
24 Q. Can you, therefore, tell us in terms of kilometres what is the
25 distance between Mrkovici and Spicasta Stijena?
1 A. Right behind Spicasta Stijena, we can get to Mrkovici. But in
2 terms of metres or kilometres, I wouldn't be able to give you the right
4 Q. Can you confirm to us if Sedam Suma where a part of Streziste is
5 was also the site where the 105th Motorised Brigade was, and the VRS
6 army? Is that right under Mrkovici, or can you tell us if the positions
7 of the VRS were right behind the BH army, or that is to say right behind
8 Vranica, Sedam Suma, and Streziste?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you told us that you heard some projectiles being fired, can
11 you tell us what did the sound sound like?
12 A. What do you mean, simultaneously or how do you want me to explain
13 it to you?
14 Q. Can you compare to us that sound, can you explain to us what the
15 firing sound was like?
16 A. It was like a sound coming from the depth of -- I don't know how
17 to explain to you.
18 Q. You said that you heard a blunt sound coming from afar. Would you
19 be able to tell us from which firing positions was this projectile fired?
20 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you this, but I was able to hear very
21 clearly that it came from behind Spicasta Stijena.
22 Q. What was the distance between that point and the point where you
24 A. From where I was, up until Spicasta Stijena, there could have been
25 approximately 150 to 200 metres as the crow flies. So from the place
1 where I was up until Spicasta Stijena. Now, what was going on there, I
2 don't know.
3 Q. When you would go to visit your parents, would they tell you that
4 right under Spicasta Stijena the BH army positions were and that those
5 positions were held by the members of the 105th Motorised Brigade; in
6 other words, able-bodied men from Sedrenik, civilians?
7 A. No.
8 Q. If I tell you that a witness who just testified before you who
9 lives in Sedrenik, she told us that the BH army positions were deployed
10 right under Spicasta Stijena, would you agree with me?
11 A. No, I would not agree with you.
12 Q. Since you were a member of the JNA, that you did your military
13 service, in terms of time, how much does it take for a projectile fly?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Can you tell us in terms of minutes when is it that you heard the
16 projectile? What was the lapse of time that elapsed between the firing
17 and the explosion?
18 A. Maybe 10 seconds. Do you understand me? About from 10 to 20
19 seconds. I can't really tell you exactly.
20 Q. And if I tell you that a projectile's flight is 24 seconds, how
21 can you then explain that you heard when the projectile was fired and when
22 it exploded?
23 A. I didn't say that it was precisely 15 seconds. I said between 10
24 to 15, maybe 20 seconds, the time elapsed between the firing and the
25 explosion. I didn't really measure this.
1 Q. You told us earlier that on 31st March, 1993, your father died
2 from a sniping bullet and your mother was injured. Would you know, could
3 you tell us if on that day where your parents lived there was some
5 A. It was a very quiet day. There was no fightings going on.
6 Q. Do you know this or did they tell you?
7 A. I know this, and I'm sure of it at a hundred per cent.
8 Q. Did somebody confirm this to you or did you just infer this?
9 A. I know that it was a very quiet day. There was no fighting going
10 on aside from the sniper activity from the Stijena.
11 Q. Do you know what a sniper is?
12 A. Sniper? Well, a sniper is a rifle on which is mounted -- how do
13 you call it, an optical device which can enable you to see the target from
15 Q. You followed the training as a soldier. Did you ever see a
17 A. No.
18 Q. During the conflict that took place in 1992, 1993, and 1994, up
19 until the month of August, with regards to the territory of Sarajevo, did
20 you ever see somebody who was shooting from a sniper gun?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you ever see a sniper?
23 A. No.
24 Q. On the basis of what, therefore, can you tell us that from
25 Spicasta Stijena there was sniping activity?
1 A. On the basis of what?
2 Q. Did you only hear that? Was it hearsay, because you told me that
3 you never saw anything like that?
4 A. Well, I think that without a sniper being hidden there, you can't
5 really target anything at that distance.
6 Q. Are you confirming to us that the front line in relation to the
7 house where your parents lived was 100, 150 metres away?
8 A. Thereabouts, roughly. Roughly.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, am I mistaken? I think this is the
10 third or the fourth time that the same question is put to the witness and
11 that is answered similarly. I mean, it's so repetitious on many aspects,
12 the last 30 seconds you asked twice whether he had ever seen a sniper.
13 That is within 30 seconds you asked it twice. Please proceed.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has
15 concluded its cross-examination.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
17 Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the witness?
18 MR. STAMP: No, Mr. President. I have no...
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Judge Nieto-Navia will now put one or more
20 questions to you.
21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Witness -- Mr. Usher, could you please show
24 the witness the map, 3668.
25 You drew a circle with the number 2 to the right part of the map.
1 What exactly were you indicating with that?
2 A. I marked the neighbourhood where I lived, Vratnik.
3 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Chamber has no further questions for you,
5 Mr. AF, I'd like to tell you that this Chamber is aware of how difficult
6 it might have been for you to testify on not just one but several very
7 painful events in your life. On the other hand, I hope that you
8 understand how important it is for this Court to hear from those who have
9 been at these locations and at these times, what their answers are to the
10 questions put by both the Prosecution and the Defence to those persons
11 because your answers to the questions of the parties and the questions of
12 the Judges will assist us in preparing the decisions we'll have to take in
13 this case. We also are aware that apart from being taken back to these
14 painful events, that you do it far from home.
15 You had to travel a long distance to come to The Hague. You
16 certainly will have had to wait for quite some time before you could come
17 into this courtroom. We are aware of how difficult that is, and we would
18 like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and assisting everyone
19 in this courtroom in performing our tasks. Thank you very much, and I
20 wish you a safe trip home again.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, could you please assist us in
23 dealing with the documents which will not take much time, I think.
24 MR. STAMP: I don't know, Mr. President, if perhaps the witness
25 could be escorted out.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it could be done, yes. This is no problem with
3 Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness out of the
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2424 under seal, diagram drawn by
8 witness. Exhibit P3131, a set of photographs under seal. P3668, a map
9 marked by witness under seal.
10 JUDGE ORIE: 3667 was already -- so the name sheet 3667 was
11 admitted in evidence already before. Then all these documents have been
12 admitted in evidence.
13 Then finally, I first of all would like to thank especially all
14 those who assist us, not always very good visible behind their smoked
15 glasses. But that you enabled the Chamber to conclude the examination of
16 the witness this week so that he could return home. Thank you very much
17 for that.
18 Mr. Stamp, as far as I understand, the order will be that the
19 witness which is still -- which is in The Hague could be examined Monday
20 morning first, and as soon as we concluded the examination of that
21 witness, that we'll then go into the videolink and hear the other
22 witnesses from a distance.
23 MR. STAMP: As it pleases you, Mr. President, Your Honours. May I
24 also point out to the Court that the witnesses for whom protective
25 measures were granted, there were another couple of witnesses if I may
1 refer to them by the pseudonyms they have been given --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Am I right in understanding that -- have you seen the
3 decision given by the --
4 MR. STAMP: Yes, a copy was made available to me by the Registrar
5 this morning. The orders were made in respect to Witness AG and Witness
6 AH. They are here. And I would hope that the Court could leave it to our
7 discretion as to whether they could be sent back and brought back, because
8 the decision to some extent depends on advice which we have to receive
9 from the Victim Witnesses Unit.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes as far as I understand but if I'm mistaken please
11 inform me, if there are witness that could be heard within let's say a
12 reasonable period of time, we would then first examine those witnesses so
13 that we are able to send them home afterwards. But I don't know how many
14 witnesses are waiting. I was informed that it was just one. But am I
15 well informed now that there are more?
16 MR. STAMP: My information, and perhaps I might need some time to
17 confirm this, is that there would be three left. It had been indicated
18 that of those three, the two I just mentioned, perhaps might need to be
19 sent back, to return, because they might take some time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that then I think my information and your
21 information coincides to the point that they will be one remaining after
22 you have sent back two of them. Yes. I think that would be acceptable,
23 and of course we leave it to some extent also to you and to the Victims
24 and Witness Unit how to deal with witnesses present. This Chamber, of
25 course, is very much trying to make sure that witnesses are not
1 unnecessarily sent back before they have been examined.
2 So for the time being, I would say we expect one witness to be
3 examined next Monday morning. We do not expect at this very moment two
4 other witnesses. If you change your mind, would you then please be in
5 touch with the senior legal officer, and at least members of this Chamber
6 are here this afternoon. So for the time being, I would say the one
7 witness you had in mind that would stay during the weekend will be
8 examined next Monday morning, and no others. But if for any practical
9 reasons you think it should be done otherwise, please -- but then inform
10 us as soon as possible. Yes? No. Yes.
11 MR. STAMP: Lastly, Mr. President, Your Honours, in respect to
12 Exhibit P2171, the report which you had ordered be redacted, at least that
13 the translation be redacted. We have here the redacted version as ordered
14 by the Court, and we hope, we trust that it will done in a manner which
15 pleases the Court.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that we don't have to take a decision
17 on that right away. And since Ms. Pilipovic is not reading and speaking
18 English, I would suggest to you that you give a copy already now to
19 Ms. Pilipovic so that she can confer with her colleague and consult him,
20 and that we take a decision then in the beginning of next week.
21 MR. STAMP: As it pleases you, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If there's nothing else, I once again thanks our
23 assistants for enabling us to conclude the examination of the witness
24 today. I wish you all a good weekend, and we'll adjourn until next
25 Monday, 9.30, in this same courtroom.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
2 2.14 p.m., to be reconvened on
3 Monday, the 18th day of March, 2002,
4 at 9.30 a.m.