Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5533

1 Monday, 18 March 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please be so kind to call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 I think, Mr. Stamp, the order of this week is that we first start

11 with one viva voce witness, and it's the last one that was still

12 waiting.

13 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President, and that is Witness P.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It's Witness P. And for Witness P, has, of course, a

15 pseudonym and facial distortion.

16 MR. STAMP: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours,

19 good morning. Just one simple point relating to the intervention of

20 Mr. Ierace on last Thursday. We had agreed that the Defence would be

21 given the opportunity to state its opinion at the end of this hearing

22 today, Monday, in order to save time. Mr. Ierace mentioned a certain

23 number of military references, and I don't know whether Mr. Stamp can tell

24 us as early as now what brigades, corps, and battalions precisely Mr.

25 Ierace was referring to last Thursday. Can Mr. Stamp tell us which units

Page 5534

1 we are talking about, or rather Mr. Ierace was talking about, so that we

2 can better prepare our response. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like him to do it now in open court or --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think

5 Mr. Stamp -- that is, I hope that Mr. Stamp can do it now. But -- well,

6 he can do it whenever he chooses to do so, but I hope he'll be able to

7 respond now.

8 MR. STAMP: With respect to my friend, Mr. Ierace will be here

9 today. He is prepared to respond -- to follow up on all submissions that

10 he made to the Court. But having regard to what is happening in Sarajevo

11 and the direction of the Court in respect of this witness, I respectfully

12 ask if we could complete this witness as quickly as possible, and hear the

13 witnesses on videolink, may it please you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then you'll get an answer Mr. Piletta-Zanin either

15 later this day, or if you -- if an exchange of information, not

16 necessarily in this courtroom, could help you out, that, of course, would

17 be good as well.

18 Then Mr. Usher, would you please, then, lead in Witness P.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome in this courtroom. I will call you "Mrs. P"

23 because there are protective measures in effect. That means that we'll

24 not mention your name, and that your face is distorted on our screens.

25 Before you testify in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence

Page 5535

1 require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the

2 whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text of the solemn

3 declaration is handed out to you now by the usher. And may I invite you

4 to make that declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.

8 You will first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution, then

9 you'll be examined by counsel for the Defence, and if there are any

10 questions of the Judges, they will put them to you as well.

11 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

12 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS P

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

16 Q. Witness, I'm going to hand to you a document. And I wish you to

17 remember to answer my questions precisely.

18 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, could the witness be

19 handed Document P3669.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. Please, Mr. Usher, would you give this

21 document to the witness.

22 MR. STAMP:

23 Q. For the time being, do not answer me; just have a quick look at

24 that document. And please now answers my questions yes or no. Do you see

25 your name on that document?

Page 5536

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And do you see your date of birth on that document?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 MR. STAMP: It could be now retrieved.

6 Q. Witness, could you tell us -- may I just ask, do you live in

7 Sarajevo, madam?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And for about how long have you lived there?

10 A. 53 years.

11 Q. And I take it that you lived there during the conflict in the

12 early 1990s?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. During this conflict, can you just tell us the part of Sarajevo

15 that you lived in? Don't tell us your address, just the district of

16 Sarajevo.

17 A. Logavina, Vrbanjusa, Stari Grad.

18 Q. Do you remember sometime around the 10th of November, 1995, being

19 interviewed by an investigator of the ICTY?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did you mark for him a map of Sarajevo with the approximate

22 location of where you live?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And if I showed you that map again, would you be able to identify

25 it again with your mark?

Page 5537

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, Your Honours, could

3 the witness be shown Document P3670.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Usher, would you assist in giving

5 the map to the witness.

6 Don't put it on the ELMO yet. Is it -- I see that the yellow

7 sticker is on it. I just wanted to be sure. So you may put it on the

8 ELMO again, Mr. Usher.

9 MR. STAMP:

10 Q. Have a look at the document. You could look at the document to

11 your right. Now, is that the map which you marked for our investigator?

12 Just answer this before we get to the map. Is that the map that you

13 marked for the investigator?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you have a look, please, and tell us if you see a red X on

16 it. Witness P, the map is to your right. You could look at the map

17 itself.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. You point to a red X on the map. Is that the approximate location

20 of the place you lived in in the early 1990s?

21 A. I have lived there since 1960.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 Now, the house in which you live, how many floors is it?

24 A. There's the ground floor and two more floors.

25 Q. Which floor do you live on?

Page 5538

1 A. On the ground floor.

2 Q. Now, do you have a front window at that house?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, in the course of the conflict in the early 1990s, did you

5 observe anything in respect of shelling and sniping in Sarajevo?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I would like you to focus on the period from September 1992 to

8 August 1994. What can you tell the Court in respect to shelling in

9 Sarajevo in that period?

10 A. During the war, I was in Sarajevo. I worked throughout the war.

11 I would have to pass through the town. Everything was shelled. And from

12 the window of my house, I was able to see the firing positions. When

13 you're looking straight ahead from my window, the view is not obstructed

14 in any way, so it was possible for me to see the positions from which the

15 shelling came.

16 Q. Which --

17 A. From --

18 Q. Which district could you see from which the shelling came?

19 A. Borije, straight ahead. Then to the right, Trebevic. And

20 Spicasta Stijena on the left-hand side, with Mrkovici just above it.

21 Q. Let's start with Borije. You said Borije in front. By that I

22 take it you mean that if you stood at your front window looking out,

23 Borije was straight ahead of you.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, when you said that you could see the positions from which the

Page 5539

1 shelling came, what do you mean by positions? I mean --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't think

4 that the witness stated that the Borije neighbourhood was straight ahead

5 of her, opposite from her window. Could Mr. Stamp tell us exactly where

6 in the testimony of the witness we can find that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what I see at this moment on my

8 screen, on page 6, line 18, the question was, "Which district could you

9 see from which the shelling came?" And the answer was: "Borije, straight

10 ahead."

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right,

12 Mr. President. My apologies.

13 JUDGE ORIE: They are accepted, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

15 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. When you said you can see the positions from which the shelling

17 came, what do you mean by "positions"?

18 A. I was able to see the area of Borije because I'm facing the area

19 of Borije from my window. So I was able to hear the sound and to see the

20 smoke which resulted from the firing when it comes to the shelling which

21 occurred during the day. Likewise, I could see the same from Trebevic.

22 Q. And Trebevic is which direction from your house, if you are at

23 your front window facing straight out? Is it to your right, left, or in

24 front of you?

25 A. On my -- there's Borije right ahead of me, and Trebevic on the

Page 5540

1 right-hand side, Spicasta Stijena on the left-hand side, with the area of

2 Mrkovici above Spicasta Stijena, but I could not see Mrkovici.

3 Q. Now, when you say that you could see the positions from where the

4 shelling came from Trebevic, what do you mean by "positions"? What did

5 you see?

6 A. I was able to see a tank, or rather tanks, which were dug in and

7 from where you first hear a sound, and then you see the smoke, and you

8 know what's going on. I could never see a shell being fired during the

9 day. I could see the actual shell only during the night because it is a

10 ball of fire, so you can see it only during the night.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 Now, the fire that you observed from Borije and Trebevic, can you

13 say which part of the city was shelled?

14 A. Yes. The old town, or Stari Grad.

15 Q. You said -- let me just ask you this: The areas of Borije and

16 Trebevic from which you saw the shelling were in control of what party to

17 the conflict? Do you know? Was it the Bosnian Serb army or the army of

18 the federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19 A. Of the Serbian Montenegrin army with Karadzic's volunteers and

20 supporters.

21 Q. Now, you said there was shelling from the area of Mrkovici but you

22 could not see Mrkovici. How did you know that there was shelling of the

23 city from Mrkovici?

24 A. Every shell that was fired passed over my house, above my house,

25 because my house is the tallest one in the neighbourhood.

Page 5541

1 Q. And how would you know that a shell passed over your house?

2 A. This time, it was flying very low, very low over the house. And

3 actually, it fell very close to my house.

4 Q. How would you know if it is flying low over your house? Did you

5 observe anything --

6 A. I could tell by the sound. No, no, but it was by the sound that I

7 could tell that.

8 Q. What sound was that?

9 A. It was a piercing sound. I was -- I happened to be at the window

10 when it happened.

11 Q. Can I turn you to the 5th of February, 1994. I'd like to direct

12 you to that date. That day, where were you?

13 A. At the window of my house.

14 Q. Were you alone at home?

15 A. No. I was with my son, who was 8.

16 Q. How many children do you have?

17 A. Two.

18 Q. Who -- without calling a name, what did your other child do during

19 the conflict?

20 A. My other son was in the army. But he had broken his arm because a

21 log had fallen on his arm and so, for about a year, he was not at the

22 front line, in the battlefield.

23 Q. Thanks. So he was in the army. Can you please remember to answer

24 my questions briefly. We are trying to move as quickly as possible.

25 At about 12.00 that day, where in particular were you in your

Page 5542

1 house?

2 A. I said -- sorry, I was at home, at the window, talking with a

3 neighbour living above me.

4 Q. While you were there talking with your neighbour, did anything

5 happen that you noticed?

6 A. It was incredibly quiet, a very calm day.

7 Q. And did you notice anything while you were there talking with your

8 neighbour?

9 A. No. No. Nothing.

10 Q. Very well. Can you say what the weather was like that day?

11 A. Quite nice.

12 Q. And while you were there at your window talking with your

13 neighbour, what happened?

14 A. We heard a bang -- I mean, that something was fired. And there

15 was this strident sound going over the building.

16 Q. The sound you heard, the bang you heard, from which direction did

17 it come?

18 A. From Mrkovici.

19 Q. About what time did you hear this bang?

20 A. It was 12.00, 20 past 12.00, thereabouts. I'm not quite sure. I

21 don't know the exact time.

22 Q. Now, after you heard that bang, did you hear or observe anything

23 in the town of Sarajevo?

24 A. And then we heard a harsh sound, and I knew that that shell had

25 fallen nearby.

Page 5543

1 Q. When you said you heard a "harsh sound," could you describe it

2 just a little bit more, please.

3 A. [Whistles]

4 MR. STAMP: May I describe that sound as something like a

5 whistle?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Whistles]

8 MR. STAMP: Now, she whistled and then she said "boom."

9 Q. Did you hear any sound like that in the town itself?

10 A. No, no. It was a single shell, the only shell that was fired that

11 day in the city of Sarajevo.

12 Q. Now, from your window to the place you call Spicasta Stijena, is

13 there any impediment to your line of sight? In other words, is there

14 anything between where you were at your window and Spicasta Stijena?

15 A. No.

16 Q. In other words, you can stay at your window and see --

17 A. Spicasta Stijena is a sheer drop. It is just a rock, and there's

18 a sheer drop.

19 Q. Thank you. For the time being, I'm just interested to know if you

20 can see Spicasta Stijena from your window.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know what happened in the town after you heard the sound of

23 the thing being fired?

24 A. People who were nearby were running towards the street, towards

25 buildings, and shouting, "Markale, Markale."

Page 5544

1 Q. Now, you said that you observed or knew of shellings in the city.

2 In your own particular neighbourhood, do you know of any shelling in

3 particular? Or may I just quickly, for the sake of -- direct your mind to

4 the 12th of June, 1993. Did anything in particular happen on that day?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What happened?

7 A. There was a funeral taking place at the cemetery, and a shell was

8 fired which killed ten of those present.

9 Q. Where was that?

10 A. Above my house.

11 Q. Was the cemetery in the territory of the federation of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And was this place above your house in Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you said ten people died. Do you know if they were civilian

17 or military people who died?

18 A. It was a funeral, mother of one of those killed was being buried.

19 Two of her sons were killed, and eight more persons.

20 Q. The question I asked, if you knew whether or not those persons

21 killed or injured were civilians or military?

22 A. Civilians.

23 Q. In your district, in the district that you live at, what time of

24 the day did funerals normally take place at?

25 A. At noon, and at times, even at night. Because my neighbourhood

Page 5545

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Page 5546

1 was under very intensive shellfire.

2 Q. Is that why funerals sometimes took place at night?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you very much, Witness P. I have nothing further in

5 examination-in-chief.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp. Is the Defence ready to

7 cross-examine the witness?

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, everybody. Thank

11 you, Your Honour.

12 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness P.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. Today you confirmed to us that on the 19th of November, 1995, you

16 gave a statement to the investigators of the OTP?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Can you confirm to us that with the investigators of the OTP, you

19 talked also on the 24th of June, 2001, and the 16th of September, 2000?

20 A. To be quite honest, I don't remember the days but I did talk with

21 them.

22 Q. So you talked with them on two more occasions?

23 A. They came to Sarajevo, and I went to talk with them, that is, make

24 my statements, yes.

25 Q. How many statements did you make?

Page 5547

1 A. I gave two statements, a statement which has to do with our

2 Ministry of the Interior of the federation of B and H. That was the first

3 statement that I gave.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. Not at all.

6 Q. You told us in what part of Sarajevo you lived.

7 A. That is where I still live.

8 Q. And on the map, you marked the location of the part of the city

9 where you lived and still live, as you put it.

10 A. That's right.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence should

12 like to show the witness the map, this map, because the Defence wishes to

13 ask the witness certain questions relative to the allegations made by the

14 witness during the examination-in-chief.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The map is being prepared, Ms. Pilipovic.

16 Mr. Usher, would you please put the map on the ELMO.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, you told us today that you had seen shelling and sniping

19 in the course of the conflict in Sarajevo?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Can you mark on this map the location of Borije.

22 A. [Indicates]

23 Q. Will you pick up the black marker and next to the place where you

24 put the red cross, mark the direction leading towards Borije.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 5548

1 Yes, Mr. Usher, we always use blue for markings on request of the

2 Prosecution, and black for markings on the request of the Defence.

3 Could you please, Mr. Usher, move the map in such a way or have it

4 zoomed out that we can see what the witness is doing.

5 A. [Marks]

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, from the location which you marked with a red cross, will

8 you draw a line to show the direction of Borije.

9 A. May I draw it across the map?

10 Q. Yes, you can do on the map. And will you make it an arrow.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. For the record, the witness has drawn a straight line and an arrow

13 facing westward marking the direction of Borije.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you mind making it the east

15 instead of the west.

16 Yes, please. Please proceed.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

18 The witness has drawn an eastward arrow.

19 Q. Will you please, above this arrow, will you put letter B to mark

20 the direction of Borije.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Witness, you told us today that from this direction, you watched

23 the city being shelled.

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Can you tell us, between April 1992 to August 1994, how often did

Page 5549

1 you see shelling coming -- shelling of the city coming from this

2 direction?

3 A. All I can say is that every building in the area where I live, and

4 you can see it on the map, was shelled. How many shells were fired, that

5 is something I do not know, if you mean how many pieces.

6 Q. Please, from April 1992 to end of 1992, how often was the part of

7 the city in which you say almost every house was shelled, how often were

8 they shelled from that direction?

9 A. The shelling never ceased.

10 Q. When you say "never ceased," what do you mean?

11 A. I mean very often by day and by night. That was the worst period

12 insofar as the shelling of Stari Grad was concerned.

13 Q. Which was that period?

14 A. 1992, beginning to the end of 1992.

15 Q. 1993?

16 A. 1992.

17 Q. 1993, what was shelled in 1993?

18 A. The whole area was shelled, but all that time, in 1992 until the

19 end of 1992.

20 Q. I'm asking you now about 1993.

21 A. No, you asked me about 1992.

22 Q. And you've answered it, and now I'm asking you about 1993.

23 A. I see. I'm sorry. There was less shelling then of my area, the

24 area where I live.

25 Q. And in 1994?

Page 5550

1 A. There was intermittent shelling, but not like in 1992.

2 Q. Since you have drawn an arrow in the direction of Borije, you told

3 us that the army of Republika Srpska was at Borije. Can you confirm for

4 us that in the area of Kovaci and Vratnik, towards Sedrenik, you know that

5 part of the city, that the 9th Mountain Brigade was quartered there? That

6 is, the 10th Mountain Brigade commanded by Topalovic was quartered there?

7 A. Let me tell you, I'm not a military expert, nor do I know that.

8 That is to begin with. Secondly, I cannot see all of Vratnik to know

9 where is who, because after all, at that time, I was working.

10 Q. You've just told us that you were working.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. So you spent almost -- you spent at work most of your days?

13 A. Well, at times 24 hours, but I had to cross all of Sarajevo to

14 reach my workplace.

15 Q. You confirmed to us that you could not see Vratnik particularly

16 well from your part of --

17 A. What you are saying, what that is, I cannot see the cemetery of

18 Kovaci. All I can see is a part line towards Borije, up there, because

19 Borije is the area that I can see best, and it's a slope with low growth,

20 with low vegetation.

21 Q. How far is Borije from your area?

22 A. How do you mean?

23 Q. How many kilometres is Borije far?

24 A. You mean as the crow flies or -- ?

25 Q. Both as the crow flies and --

Page 5551

1 A. Well, it is -- it is near enough for me to see shots being fired

2 by the naked eye.

3 Q. You told us that you worked 24 hours a day.

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. Tell us, when did you watch shots being fired from Borije?

6 A. I could always watch it when I was at home. When I was at home, I

7 could always see shots being fired from Trebevic and Borije because it is

8 directly in my line, in my field of vision.

9 Q. When you watched shots fired from Borije, tell us, what did you

10 see? What buildings were shelled at those times when you watched shots

11 being fired from Borije?

12 A. Let me tell you, I do not see where shells fall, because I told

13 you, in daytime I could not see those shells. I could see them being

14 fired, the moment of their being fired.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. P, may I ask you, once a question has been put

16 to you by counsel for the Defence, just to make a brief pause because

17 everything you say and what Ms. Pilipovic says has to be translated. Yes?

18 Thank you. Please proceed.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, yes.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Q. You told us that your son was in the -- had been in the army. Can

22 you tell us, when did he join the army of BH?

23 A. My son left in -- in October 1991, my son was released from the

24 military service of the former JNA. And in July 1992, he joined the army

25 of BH.

Page 5552

1 Q. Which military formation was your son attached to? Was it a

2 brigade, which brigade, or a smaller unit, and which brigade was it?

3 A. Believe me that I never discussed it with him, nor did he ever

4 give me any information.

5 Q. As a member of the BH army, was your son issued with a uniform and

6 a weapon?

7 A. No, he wasn't.

8 Q. On the basis of what did you know that he was a member of the BH

9 army?

10 A. Because he went, but he carried food for the mess.

11 Q. And where was the mess and which unit it belonged to?

12 A. I don't know, believe me.

13 Q. And where was the mess, in what part of the city? Where did he go

14 to the positions?

15 A. I don't know where he went to when he went to positions. But the

16 mess was in the old part of the city.

17 Q. Was it in the vicinity of the part of the city that you told us

18 was called Logavina, and there is an elementary school there, isn't there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you confirm for us that in elementary school was the

21 headquarters of the BH army?

22 A. All I can confirm is that I used to see uniformed soldiers.

23 Whether it was the headquarters of that, I cannot say -- I mean, I don't

24 know.

25 Q. But you are confirming for us that in that school you used to see

Page 5553

1 uniformed soldiers?

2 A. No, not in the school. Outside, in the street.

3 Q. Witness, when talking with the OTP investigators on the 6th of

4 September, 2000, you said that there was a local school in Logavina which

5 the Bosnian Army had taken over. Is that correct? Did you say that?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Can you tell us, on the basis of what information did you confirm

8 that the Bosnian Army had taken over the school at Logavina, on Logavina

9 Street?

10 A. Yes, I can, because I have to pass by that school when I go to

11 work, or shopping. Children did not attend that school, and I can say

12 because I saw soldiers walk in to that school.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 Witness, can you tell us how far is that school from the part of

15 the city that you had marked as your neighbourhood? How far from you?

16 A. 500 metres below my -- the building that I live in.

17 Q. You told us today about the shelling from Trebevic. Can you

18 indicate on the map which part of Trebevic can you see from the part of

19 the city in which you live?

20 A. Vidikovac.

21 Q. Can you indicate on the map the direction in which you see

22 Vidikovac?

23 A. [Marks]

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the record, the

25 witness has drawn an eastward arrow to point at the direction of Trebevic.

Page 5554

1 Q. Witness, I only want you to put letter T in that corner.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may it be southeast.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think I said that, but I'm not

4 sure.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I think I heard

6 "east," but we agree that it's southeast, yes, please.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

8 Q. Witness, in that direction that you marked, will you please put

9 T.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. For the record, letter T means direction Trebevic.

12 At this part of the examination, will you please mark where that

13 street is where the school was in which the BH army was quartered.

14 A. Well, move parallelly with my house, and you'll find it.

15 Q. Witness, I merely want you to place a small black cross on the

16 street where the school is, approximately.

17 A. This is my street, the length of it.

18 Q. No, just put a circle to show where the school is. Just a circle

19 in which you will put number 1.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Just a slightly larger circle in which you will write number 1.

22 A. [Marks]. I put it outside.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness -- the witness made

24 a large black dot with number 1 above it to mark the school on Logavina

25 Street where the BH army was.

Page 5555

1 Q. Witness, you marked for us the southeast, and you told us that you

2 could see Vidikovac. Could you now tell us which area of the town was

3 shelled from that direction?

4 A. The old part of the town.

5 Q. In 1992, how many times did you see the old part of the town being

6 shelled from that direction? How many times did you personally observe

7 that?

8 A. I don't remember exactly how many times, but I know that it was on

9 quite a few occasions, at least 50.

10 Q. You said that it was on at least 50 occasions. Out of these 50

11 occasions, could you single maybe two or three shelling incidents of the

12 old part of the town that you were able to observe, and can you tell us

13 what is it that you saw?

14 A. Usually, the target was the houses. One of the impact points was

15 the old brewery.

16 Q. Could you mark for us the location of the brewery in the area that

17 you said you saw being shelled.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Could you mark it with number 2, please.

20 A. [Marks]

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Witness has just made a

22 circle. Underneath, she wrote number "2," having thus indicated the

23 location of the brewery which the witness has told us was shelled from the

24 direction of Vidikovac.

25 Q. Witness, can you now tell us approximately on what date this

Page 5556

1 incident occurred? Tell us the year: 1992, 1993, or 1994.

2 A. It was on the 15th of January, 1993, that 15 people were killed

3 near the brewery.

4 Q. Did you see this personally, and do you know any of the people who

5 were killed on the 15th of January, 1993?

6 A. Yes, I do. I know the Lacovic [phoen] couple, for instance.

7 Q. By the surname of Lacovic?

8 A. Yes. Azra and Asim Lacovic were killed.

9 Q. Together?

10 A. Yes. Actually, two of their children sustained very serious

11 injuries also.

12 Q. Witness, do you have any knowledge as to the fact that there was

13 the Bistrik barracks in the area of the town which was shelled on the 15th

14 of January, 1993, and that that barracks was used by the BH army?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Is that the area that you said was shelled on that day?

17 A. Yes. But there's also a Catholic church in that part of the town.

18 Q. In this area where the BH army was, do you know that there was

19 constant fighting near the Colina Kapa and Mala Kapa areas?

20 A. No, the brewery belongs to the centre of the town. It is not

21 situated on the slopes.

22 Q. When facing Vidikovac, and you said that you were able to see

23 Vidikovac, from your house, when facing Vidikovac, is it possible to

24 see the elevations which are called Mala Kapa and Colina Glava?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5557

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Page 5558

1 Q. Did you know that throughout the conflict, both Colina Glava and

2 Mala Velika Kapa were under the BH army control?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you spoke about the shelling of the cemetery on the 12th of

5 June, 1993, can you tell us whether this is something that you

6 eyewitnessed or just heard?

7 A. I was at home when this crowd of people started rushing down the

8 street from that location, those who were dispersed after the funeral.

9 Q. So you did not personally see that?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you at any point in time come to know from which part of the

12 town the funeral gathering was shelled?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So you don't know that the shelling came from the direction where

15 the VRS positions are?

16 A. Yes, it is possible, because you could see both Trebevic and

17 Borije from that area, but I personally didn't see it.

18 Q. So once again, you're telling us that you don't know the direction

19 from which the funeral column was shelled on that day?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You spoke about the 5th of February in your testimony today, and

22 you said that you happened to be at the window when you heard what

23 exactly?

24 A. When I heard the shell being fired, that is, the sound which I

25 could hear coming from above my house, and I could also feel the

Page 5559

1 detonation.

2 Q. So you told us that you heard the shell being fired. Can you

3 describe for us the sound. What is it exactly that you heard? You said

4 you heard the shell being fired, but what kind of sound is it?

5 A. Well, you usually hear a "boom" sound. I believe I've already

6 mentioned this.

7 Q. Is it your testimony that it was on the basis of this sound that

8 you knew that the shell was fired from the positions in Mrkovici?

9 A. If it had come from Borije or Trebevic, I would have seen the

10 smoke. But I'm sure that this was fired from Mrkovici because the shell

11 had flown over my house.

12 Q. Yes. Please finish.

13 A. And it didn't go very far, and the detonation was very loud.

14 Q. Witness, you told us that Mrkovici is behind your house, and that

15 you cannot see that area.

16 A. No. They are situated in a forest.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

18 MR. STAMP: It is just a matter of the translation I got. I can't

19 recall the witness saying that Mrkovici is or was behind her house, which

20 is what my friend just put to the witness. If I'm -- I think my friend

21 agrees that perhaps that was not entirely correct and will rephrase the

22 question, I imagine.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness, could you approximate for us with respect to your house

Page 5560

1 the direction of Mrkovici on the map, please.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Would you mark the area with a letter M and place an arrow also.

4 A. [Marks]

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness has

6 drawn an arrow pointing northeast and marked with letter M the location of

7 Mrkovici with respect to the area where she lives.

8 Q. Witness, how far is Mrkovici in relation to your neighbourhood?

9 A. Before the war, I sometimes used to walk to Mrkovici. It would

10 take me one hour to get there. I couldn't tell you exactly how many

11 kilometres that is, but it is more or less one hour's walk.

12 Q. On the way to Mrkovici, you must have passed through Sedrenik and

13 the seven wood area, Sedam Suma?

14 A. Yes, let me just add that I can see the area of seven woods from

15 my window.

16 Q. Can you confirm that during the conflict, that is, in 1992, 1993,

17 and 1994, in the area which you can see, the area of the seven woods, that

18 the positions of the 105th Motorised Brigade of the BH army were, that

19 that was where those positions were?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you confirm that in 1992, 1993, and 1994, there was fighting

22 going on in that part of the town?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. With respect to the direction where the area of the seven woods

25 lie, is that the area where Spicasta Stijena and Grdo Brdo are?

Page 5561

1 A. Yes, it is in the same direction more or less, but it's difficult

2 for me to say. It is in the direction of Grdonja. Grdonja and Spicasta

3 Stijena are to the left of the seven woods' area when I'm looking from my

4 window.

5 Q. Witness, on the map, would you please indicate for us the area of

6 Grdonja, Spicasta Stijena, and Sedam Suma, that is the seven woods' area,

7 and mark them for us on the map.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please take care that the

9 marking is done as much as possible on the ELMO so that we can see it.

10 A. [Marks]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You have drawn two lines. Could you mark one of them with number

14 1, please.

15 A. [Marks]

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness has

17 marked with a horizontal line the area of Sedam Suma, and marked it with

18 number 1.

19 Q. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you now mark with number 2 the area above the first line, and

22 can you confirm for us that you have thus marked the area of Grdonja.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you mark for us the location of Spicasta Stijena as well.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 5562

1 Q. Would you please mark with number 3 the area where you say can see

2 Spicasta Stijena, and would you please encircle this number 3.

3 A. [Marks]

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness has

5 made a circle in which she has written number 3. According to her

6 testimony, it indicates the area of the seven woods where Spicasta Stijena

7 is located.

8 Q. Witness, you told us that Spicasta Stijena rises above an abyss.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What exactly do you mean by that?

11 A. What I mean to say is that you cannot climb up the Spicasta

12 Stijena point from the ground below; that is, you cannot go up from the

13 bottom to the top of the Spicasta Stijena point. The only way you can

14 access the location is through Mrkovici and the villages above. That is

15 the only way to go to Spicasta Stijena.

16 Q. Did you yourself ever go to the bottom of Spicasta Stijena point?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know if there are any houses at the bottom of Spicasta

19 Stijena point?

20 A. Yes, there are.

21 Q. How far are they from the feature itself?

22 A. They are just below the feature, that is, right underneath

23 Spicasta Stijena point.

24 Q. When going towards Spicasta Stijena, what is the best position to

25 see these houses?

Page 5563

1 A. I don't understand your question.

2 Q. When you take the route going to Grdonja, when you walk towards

3 Spicasta Stijena point, can you see these houses?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are they also visible from the direction of the Spicasta Stijena

6 point itself?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Witness, you mentioned the incident which took place on the 5th of

9 February. You told us that the weather was quite fine. Can you be more

10 specific, what kind of weather was it?

11 A. It was so nice that it was -- that I was able to open the window.

12 It was not that cold. It was not raining or snowing. The weather was

13 mild.

14 Q. Was it sunny or overcast?

15 A. There were sunny spells.

16 Q. On that day, when you were at the window when you said you heard

17 the firing sound, how much time -- how much later did you hear the actual

18 explosion?

19 A. Well, I'm not an expert to be able to see that. I mean, I would

20 have to go to the shooting range and see how -- what happens when a shell

21 is fired.

22 Q. Did you actually see anything, apart from hearing the sound?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You told us that your son was a member of the army.

25 A. Yes.

Page 5564

1 Q. Was he supposed to go back to the front line on the 5th of

2 February?

3 A. As I told you, my son was on sick leave, which lasted for about a

4 year. He had had an arm fracture.

5 Q. But you told the investigator that your son was supposed to go

6 back to the front line on the 5th of February?

7 A. Yes, he was supposed to go back, but since he had had this

8 fracture, since he had broken his arm, he didn't go.

9 Q. When he was on the front line, how long was his shift?

10 A. 24 hours.

11 Q. Where did he take his meals?

12 A. At the canteen, but he would carry his own meals.

13 Q. So you're telling us that your son worked at the canteen which

14 prepared food for the troops. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us the part of the town with respect to your

17 neighbourhood where this military canteen was, and can you mark it for us

18 on the map?

19 A. No, I cannot do that.

20 Q. Do you know on which street it was located?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You told us that you worked throughout that period of time.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where was your work? Where did you go to work?

25 A. In Novo Sarajevo.

Page 5565

1 Q. In what particular street, please?

2 A. In Vojvode Putnika Street, as it was called then.

3 Q. When you say Novo Sarajevo, are you referring to the area of --

4 A. Cengic Vila.

5 Q. In the area, in the neighbourhood where you worked, were there any

6 troops, and where were they located? Do you know that?

7 A. No, I don't.

8 Q. Was the Vranica company located in that neighbourhood?

9 A. I don't know. The street I took was called Putim Zivota. It was

10 impossible for us to walk by the Marsal Tito barracks because of sniping.

11 For the first two or three months, it was impossible for me to go to work.

12 Q. You said that there was sniping coming from Marsal Tito barracks

13 during the first two months. What particular months do you have in mind?

14 A. May and June 1992.

15 Q. Do you have any knowledge about any fighting going on between

16 members of the JNA who were located in the Marsal Tito barracks and who

17 were being attacked by the green berets, and the members of the

18 Territorial Defence, that is, the BH army, in the months of May and June

19 1992 in the vicinity of Marsal Tito barracks? Do you know that that

20 barracks was attacked and shot at? Did you know that from the media?

21 A. Well, very often there were power cuts. I didn't see any such

22 programme on TV. But I know that it was impossible to walk in the

23 vicinity.

24 Q. What is it that you heard exactly?

25 A. Well, I heard from other people that there was sniping going on in

Page 5566

1 that area, and I couldn't go to work.

2 Q. Do you know that the fire was opened from the Energoinvest and

3 Unis buildings on this barracks, that the barracks were shot at from

4 the surrounding buildings?

5 A. No, I told you that for about two months I didn't go to that

6 neighbourhood. It was impossible because of the sniping.

7 Q. Are you telling us that you personally did not see that, that this

8 is just something that you heard from others?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you said you heard about that, are you referring to the media

11 or rumours?

12 A. Well, I am referring to what other people talked about. We didn't

13 have any electricity or water. Well, the electricity would come from time

14 to time but we didn't have water at all.

15 Q. So you're telling us that from time to time, there were power and

16 water cuts. In 1993 and 1992, how often were you without electricity and

17 water?

18 A. Well, it would be much easier for me to tell you how often we had

19 electricity and water, and not the other way around.

20 Q. Please do so.

21 A. I think that throughout the war, we had electricity for about 20

22 days maximum, and we didn't have water at all, at no time.

23 Q. What was the water tank that you went to, that is, what was the

24 water tank for your neighbourhood?

25 A. No, we did not have any water tank. We didn't have any water.

Page 5567

1 However, when there was water, we had to go to the Felacici tank, water

2 tank.

3 Q. Do you know under whose control that part of the town was where

4 the water supply was for your neighbourhood?

5 A. It was under the BH army, while there was water.

6 Q. Can you be more specific? You said while there was water, it was

7 under the BH army control. What exactly do you mean by that?

8 A. The water tank was under the BH army control. As for the other

9 side of the town where some of my family members lived and where some of

10 my friends lived, they had the Jahorina source, but it was closed during

11 the war because the area was, as I have already indicated, under the

12 control of --

13 Q. Under the control of the VRS?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what is the name of that neighbourhood?

16 A. Bistrik.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the Prosecution took 28 minutes for

18 examination-in-chief. You took 45 minutes by now for cross-examination.

19 I didn't want to stop you at an early stage, but would you please keep

20 that in mind. And also perhaps keep in mind that we usually have a break

21 at 11.00.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

23 Q. Witness, you confirmed to us that the area of the town in question

24 was Trebevic under the VRS control?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5568

1 Q. As for the area which was under the BH army control, they did have

2 some water supplies?

3 A. Yes. But the area which was under the VRS control, they did not

4 allow any water, and I am sure about that. I claim this with full

5 responsibility, because the brewery incident wouldn't have happened.

6 Q. You're telling us that you claim this with full responsibility.

7 Is this something that you knew personally?

8 A. I told you that my relatives and my friends lived there, so I knew

9 personally about that. I would take water from Logavina to Bistrik.

10 Q. Do you know that there were repairs being made in respect of

11 electricity and water in this part of the town?

12 A. No, no, because when there's shelling, no repairs are possible

13 irrespective of the side involved.

14 Q. Do you know that the UN observers were there in that part of the

15 town?

16 A. No.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this concludes our

18 examination of the witness. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Pilipovic.

20 Mr. Stamp.

21 MR. STAMP: No re-examination.

22 JUDGE ORIE: No re-examination.

23 Mrs. P, you've answered all the questions put to you by the

24 Prosecution and the Defence. The Judges have no further questions. This

25 means that this concludes your examination. I know that you had to wait

Page 5569

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 5570

1 for quite some time before you could come to this courtroom. We feel

2 sorry for that. We also know that it's quite something to come from a far

3 distance and to testify in this Court. We do hope that you understand

4 that it's important for this Court to hear from those who have been

5 present during the relevant times and the relevant places of what

6 happened, so we are very glad that you came to answer the questions of the

7 parties. And after having thanked you for coming, I wish you a safe trip

8 home again.

9 Mr. Usher, would you be lead Mrs. P out of the courtroom.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honour.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, I think two documents were

13 tendered in evidence: The first one the name sheet, P3669, the second

14 one, a marked map, P3670. I think that's all. Yes, P3670 was premarked

15 in red, but has been marked during the examination of the witness with

16 black markings on it. Since both documents contain the name of the

17 witness, they are both admitted under seal.

18 It's 11.00 now. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I see you're on your feet.

19 You'd like to repeat the question to Mr. Ierace now or -- ?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, just to

21 indicate that there will be no objections to the exhibits, but we would

22 appreciate if the following maps could also have the elevations indicated

23 so that we know at what altitude the dwellings are located, which is

24 something that we don't know on these maps. But it is very useful, and we

25 will be able to read this, hopefully.

Page 5571

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, these maps that are premarked

2 by the witness during the statements, of course, we can't put in any

3 elevation lines on from that moment. But as we -- as I asked before, that

4 this Court would be quite happy if the parties could provide the Court

5 with a map. I don't know. You told us that you're discussing the matter

6 with the Prosecution. I don't know whether there are any elevation lines

7 in it. But if you think it's important, perhaps your choice might be that

8 it's one which also shows the elevation.

9 May I just draw the attention of Mr. Ierace to the fact that Mr.

10 Piletta-Zanin did put a question to the Prosecution this morning in the

11 beginning. I don't know whether you'd like to give an answer right away

12 or do it later.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I heard the comments by Mr.

14 Piletta-Zanin. The answer is a short one. The documents to which I

15 referred last Thursday were indexed and that index was provided to the

16 Defence in mid last year. And as I understand it, the index indicated the

17 source of each document. Those sources were variously brigades,

18 battalions of the 1st Corps, the command of the 1st Corps, and I think

19 there were -- there was at least one document which issued from the main

20 staff of the ABiH. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 It's three minutes past 11.00. After the break, Mr. Ierace, Mr.

23 Stamp, I think we'll proceed with the videolink testimony of the next

24 witnesses. So we'll -- everything is prepared for that, I assume. Yes, I

25 see Madam Registrar nodding that everything is prepared. So we'll then

Page 5572

1 have a break until 11.35.

2 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.54 a.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that all the problems with the

5 videolink have been solved. I was also told that the problem was caused

6 because the Prosecution did not inform the technicians what kind of

7 technical facilities they would need. It's a pity for this half an hour,

8 but let's just proceed.

9 At this very moment, I see a picture on my screen of Sarajevo, and

10 I see a representative of the Registry. Could we just check, Ms.

11 Philpott, whether the connection is working well. Could you please speak

12 a few more words so that we can see. I just heard part of one word.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it is.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The sound quality is still rather poor. Could you

15 perhaps, Madam Registrar, just speak two or three lines.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Count one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I counted with you until seven. Let's just see

18 whether it's -- the quality is good enough to start. If not, we'll have

19 to interrupt. And I'm not aware of whether this is the usual quality or

20 whether we usually have a better quality.

21 Then, Mr. Ierace, I have a list in front of me of the 13th of

22 March indicating what the order of appearance will be for the videolink

23 witnesses. Is that still the valid one?

24 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then, please, Mr. Ierace, could you call your first

Page 5573

1 witness.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the first witness I've called via

3 videolink is Nura Bajraktarevic.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there are orders for facial distortion

6 and voice distortion for this witness that were made last Friday, I think,

7 by the Trial Chamber.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because they are not on the list of the 13th of

9 March, but they are effective.

10 MR. IERACE: I note that the face distortion is not working on the

11 screen. Perhaps we should go into closed session until we have sorted

12 this out.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps -- could we just check with the

14 technicians whether ...

15 Ms. Philpott, we have a technical problem as far as the face

16 distortion is concerned. We would rather first sort this out.

17 MR. IERACE: There is not an order for voice distortion. I

18 correct myself on that point. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It just has been confirmed to me that the facial

20 distortion is effective for all those images that are broadcasted out of

21 our own system, but we can see the witness with normal images on our

22 screens.

23 Mrs. Bajraktarevic, can you hear me in a language you understand?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No Interpretation]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give testimony for this Court, the Rules

Page 5574

1 of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

2 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The

3 text of this declaration will be handed out to you now. May I invite you

4 to make that declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth ...

7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid that the sound quality is not good enough

8 for the interpreters to make any translation. We have -- Ms. Philpott, we

9 have a bad sound quality so that the interpreters are not able to

10 translate what the witness says. Perhaps you'd invite her to sit down for

11 a while so that she doesn't have to stand while we are solving our

12 technical problems.

13 May I ask the technicians whether the sound quality will improve.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, could we try one more time ...

15 [Indistinguishable]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, could you please ask the witness to sit

17 down and come closer to the microphone and see whether this will be of any

18 help.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I just check now with the interpreters

22 whether the quality of the sound is sufficient to translate whatever is

23 said.

24 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid, Your Honour, we haven't heard enough

25 in order to be able to tell you whether it's going to be feasible or not.

Page 5575

1 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we perhaps first start. Whenever you feel that

2 you're not able to do the translation, then you immediately --

3 THE INTERPRETER: We will let you know, yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

5 Thank you, Mrs. Bajraktarevic. Before your testimony will start,

6 I first have to see what Mr. Piletta-Zanin, Defence counsel, will tell

7 us. Please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

9 don't know what kind of sound the interpreters are able to hear. The

10 Defence likes to hear the floor, hear everything that is being said. But

11 my colleague is telling me that she cannot hear enough in order to

12 understand, and I'm in more or less the same situation. If the quality

13 doesn't improve, I think that we will have to give up. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see what to do if the quality will not improve.

15 Let's just first start, and let's give it a try for a couple of

16 minutes, and then I'll hear from both the interpreters and from the

17 Defence whether we could proceed or not.

18 Ms. Bajraktarevic, you'll first be examined by counsel for the

19 Prosecution.

20 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

21 WITNESS: NURA BAJRAKTAREVIC

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 [Witness testified via videolink]

24 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

25 Q. Is your name Nura Bajraktarevic?

Page 5576

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Are you 71 years of age?

3 A. On the 28th of February, 1931.

4 Q. Have you lived in the Soukbunar area of Sarajevo all your life?

5 A. Yes, I have. That's where I was born also.

6 Q. Is Soukbunar south of the city of Sarajevo, of Skenderija?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. During the war between 1992 and 1995, did you have to collect wood

9 for cooking?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you sometimes collect wood from an area called Brajkovac?

12 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question. I couldn't hear you

13 very well. Yes, I have now.

14 Q. I will repeat my question. Did you sometimes collect wood from an

15 area called Brajkovac?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Is Brajkovac a few kilometres further away from the city from

18 where you live?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you collected wood during the war, did you sometimes see

21 people you knew also collecting wood?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you collected wood in Brajkovac, did you ever hear shooting?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On one occasion, when you were collecting wood, was someone near

Page 5577

1 you shot?

2 A. No.

3 Q. On one occasion when you were in the Brajkovac area, was there

4 someone you knew who was in the same area and who was shot?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object to this question.

8 The witness has just answered "no" in response to a question which was

9 practically the same.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps, Mr. Ierace, I think the objection is

11 justified. You asked a question which had been answered. At the same

12 time, I can imagine that sometimes, for whatever reason, that you're so

13 surprised by an answer on the basis of the investigations that you would

14 seek the assistance of the Chamber in order to verify whether there's any

15 misunderstanding. But just repeating the question in order to get another

16 answer might not be the way of doing it.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there was a difference in the

18 questions asked. There was a critical difference, and I think that

19 accounts for the different answers.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just then check again.

21 You mean to say that it might have happened when she was not

22 collecting wood. That's the difference I see in the --

23 MR. IERACE: At the precise moment.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I didn't notice that difference. Perhaps I

25 should have seen it. But whenever -- the question was almost the same but

Page 5578

1 not entirely the same. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I should have perhaps read

2 first again the questions and see what the difference was. There was a

3 difference, so when I said that the objection was justified, I'm afraid I

4 made a mistake. I apologise for that. And Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

6 MR. IERACE:

7 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, who was the person you knew who was shot?

8 A. Sacir. The surname escapes me at the moment. I forgot his

9 surname.

10 Q. When did that happen?

11 A. During the war.

12 Q. Do you remember what year?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you remember what season it was when he was shot?

15 A. It was summertime.

16 Q. Did you see him when he was shot?

17 A. No. I didn't see him. I couldn't see him because he was higher

18 up the hill, and I didn't dare get up. I was trying to hide myself. I

19 was squatting, and this other friend who was with us, he saw when he was

20 shot. And he said, "Oh, dear." And I said "what happened?" And he

21 said, "Sacir just got killed."

22 Q. What is the name of the other friend?

23 A. Bajrami.

24 Q. You told us that you were crouching at the time. How many shots

25 did you hear?

Page 5579

1 A. That time, I heard only one shot.

2 Q. How long was it before you heard that shot that you had last seen

3 Sacir?

4 A. Immediately. And this friend of mine told me to get him some

5 water.

6 Q. What did you do when Bajrami told you to get him some water?

7 A. I went to a neighbouring house and asked for water, and the woman

8 there gave me some water. And Bajrami told me to bring it up there. But

9 I said I couldn't. I'm afraid I would also be hit by a bullet.

10 Q. What did you do with the water that the woman gave you?

11 A. I put it on a wall and left.

12 Q. Approximately what time of day was it when Sacir was shot?

13 A. It was around mid-day.

14 Q. Approximately what time did you arrive in that area that morning?

15 A. Well, I would usually get there by 9.00 or 10.00.

16 Q. Approximately what time that morning did you first see Sacir?

17 A. That morning, I didn't see him when he came. I only saw him when

18 he was already chopping wood.

19 Q. Had you gone there that day to collect wood?

20 A. That day, I was gathering wood, yes. And when he was shot, I left

21 home. I just didn't dare continue.

22 Q. Do you mean you left to go home?

23 A. Yes, home.

24 Q. Approximately --

25 A. And I went to see Sacir's wife.

Page 5580

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to object

3 at this point. A moment ago, you overruled my objection because

4 apparently there was a difference between the first question asked by

5 Mr. Ierace, that is, "Did you sometimes chop wood in this area?" That is

6 the question contained this element, and the second question, "when you

7 were at Brajkovac." So we are now going back to this indirect question

8 which can lead us to the same situation in which we were before I raised

9 my objection. This way, we are now, it seems to me, going back to square

10 one.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'll have a look at the

12 questions. I would say that your objection was that a question was put

13 again which had been answered before. The first question was, "When you

14 collected wood in Brajkovac, did you ever hear shooting?" And then, "On

15 one occasion when you were collecting wood, was someone near you shot?"

16 The answer was "No." And the next question was: "On one occasion when

17 you were in Brajkovac area, was there someone you knew who was in the same

18 area and who was shot?" The answer was "Yes." The difference between the

19 two questions is that in the first question, there was specifically asked

20 for a situation where the witness was collecting wood when noticing that

21 someone was shot, while this specification was not in the second question.

22 Now, the last question was whether the witness had gone there to

23 collect wood. And the answer was a bit besides the question that she was

24 gathering wood. So the questioning as such, I would say, is not the same.

25 And at the same time, it might turn out a possibility which I had in mind

Page 5581

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Page 5582

1 as a matter of fact as a possible explanation for what happened, that

2 there might have been some misunderstanding. I do not see any reason at

3 this moment to stop Mr. Ierace from his line of questioning.

4 Please, Mr. Ierace, proceed.

5 MR. IERACE:

6 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, approximately how old was Sacir?

7 A. I said I couldn't tell you exactly. He may have been 60 or so.

8 Q. What sort of clothes was he wearing that day that he was shot?

9 A. Civilian.

10 Q. Did you see him that day carrying any firearms?

11 A. No. No, he wasn't carrying.

12 Q. Did you see that morning in that area any soldiers?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Before that day, when you were in that area, had you been shot at?

15 A. I don't understand. Sorry.

16 Q. On other occasions before that day when you went to that area to

17 collect wood, had anyone fired a gun at you or in your direction?

18 A. There was constant shooting there.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage, I would like the

20 witness to view a video. Although the witness appears in the video and

21 throughout it has her back to the camera, it may be prudent that it be

22 shown in closed session because it has not -- the head area has not been

23 pixilated, given the late stage of the application.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any observation from the Defence to be made

25 on the request to go in closed session?

Page 5583

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I merely wish to

2 inform the Chamber that we have just received the tape, the video, that my

3 learned friends want us to view.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't want to do anything other than

5 -- I don't want to do anything other than continue with this witness's

6 testimony, but I note the tape was disclosed on the 26th of October last

7 year.

8 JUDGE ORIE: What number is it, has it, Mr. Ierace?

9 MR. IERACE: The number is V000-3484. It is Exhibit Number 3280S.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Exhibit Number 3280S is on the list. I didn't

11 hear prior to this hearing any complaint of the Defence that it would not

12 have -- that this exhibit would not have been disclosed.

13 Mrs. -- Madam Registrar, could we please go in closed session.

14 [Closed session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

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21 [redacted]

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Page 5584

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Page 5587

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE ORIE: We are now in open session again.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE:

8 Q. I apologise, Mrs. Bajraktarevic. At the time -- at the time that

9 Sacir was shot, were you on the embankment above the road in the direction

10 that you pointed?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. All right.

13 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 MR. IERACE:

16 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, shortly, on the screen in front of you, you

17 will see a photograph. Would you please tell us when you can see the

18 photograph.

19 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the Trial Chamber, I refer to the

20 electronic 360-degree photograph which is P3279S.

21 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, do you have the photograph on the screen in

22 front of you now?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recognise what appears in that photograph?

25 A. It's not quite clear.

Page 5588

1 THE INTERPRETER: We believe the witness said.

2 MR. IERACE:

3 Q. I will move the photograph. Do you recognise the town or city

4 which appears in the photograph?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What is that place?

7 A. Well, I can see from where the place fired from, that is Osmice,

8 and that thing down there is the city of Sarajevo.

9 Q. All right. I will move the photograph again.

10 Mrs. Bajraktarevic, do you recognise the area where the camera is

11 positioned? What part of Sarajevo is that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you recognise -- could you please repeat those last few words.

14 A. Yes, I recognise the place.

15 THE INTERPRETER: No, we cannot get the witness. There are too

16 many interruptions. We are sorry. It was impossible to understand the

17 witness's -- what the witness was saying.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the quality of

20 the sound is so bad, the Defence cannot hear, and I see that the

21 interpreters again cannot get it all. And I believe we have to know what

22 the consequences will be. We have to draw them, and I say unfortunately,

23 and three times unfortunately.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber experienced until now

Page 5589

1 that the interpreters seemed to be able to translate usually what was said

2 by the witness and indicate immediately if they are not able to translate.

3 When it will not be significantly more, I invite those examining the

4 witness to ask for a repetition of the answer when the interpreters have

5 indicated that they could not hear the witness.

6 So Mr. Ierace, if you would please do that. And the Chamber is

7 paying a lot of attention on the question of whether at a certain moment

8 the general level of understanding would fall below an acceptable

9 standard.

10 Could you please, Mr. Ierace, perhaps repeat the question, or at

11 least invite the witness to repeat the answer.

12 MR. IERACE:

13 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, I asked you if you recognised the area where

14 the camera was positioned and what part of Sarajevo it was. At first you

15 said, "No"; then you said, "Yes, I recognised the place." And then you

16 said something after that which we did not hear. Could you please repeat

17 what you said after the words: "Yes, I recognise the place."

18 A. I recognise the place, but this is -- this is Mahala Brajkovac.

19 That is what I think, because I don't often go up there.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Bajraktarevic, may I ask you to pause once the

21 question has been put to you, that you take just a brief pause before

22 answering the question. That's for technical reasons.

23 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. IERACE:

25 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, I have moved the photograph again, and now you

Page 5590

1 should be able to see a tree on the right which extends from the bottom of

2 the screen to the top of the screen. And in the bottom right hand half of

3 the picture, there is a flat green area which has a silver car in front of

4 it. Do you recognise that flat green area? Do you know what it is?

5 A. I think that it could be the reservoir, or I said I didn't often

6 go up there. Perhaps somebody is building something here. I mean, I

7 don't know.

8 Q. Were you anywhere near the reservoir when you heard the shot that

9 you understand killed Sacir?

10 A. Yes.

11 THE INTERPRETER: We think the witness said.

12 A. That's right, to the left.

13 MR. IERACE:

14 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, could you please repeat that last answer. We

15 did not hear all of the words perhaps.

16 A. I said Sacir was killed on the left-hand side, and what you see

17 down there, I think it is the reservoir, or perhaps somebody's building

18 something. I don't know.

19 Q. On the video, we saw you standing on a road. Whereabouts was the

20 reservoir in relation to that part of that road?

21 A. Below the road.

22 Q. Do you recognise the hills which are behind the construction that

23 you said may be the reservoir?

24 A. Yes, I recognise it. Please --

25 THE INTERPRETER: We are losing the witness again.

Page 5591

1 A. I didn't go there of late, you know, and I couldn't tell you --

2 THE INTERPRETER: And we could not hear again the end of the

3 sentence.

4 MR. IERACE:

5 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, I'm sorry, but we did not hear everything you

6 just said. Could you repeat your answer, speaking slowly, please.

7 A. I said the reservoir was beneath the road which is slightly up

8 there where I was, below the road.

9 Q. All right. Now, do you recognise the hills which are dark on the

10 photograph and are behind the construction that you said might be the

11 reservoir?

12 A. We called it Osmice and Baba -- one was called Baba something. I

13 don't exactly those names.

14 Q. At the time that Sacir was shot, which forces controlled Osmice

15 and Baba? Were they the Serb forces or the Bosnian government forces, or

16 some other forces?

17 A. Serb forces. Yes, that area up there, it was the Serb forces who

18 was there. And down where we were, there were no troops at all.

19 Q. Which forces control --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm really very sorry, but two

22 things: I do not know where Baba something, I do not know what that

23 refers to, but this is something that I see in this text. Now I'm trying

24 to follow on the Serb channel to see how we can hear the witness, and

25 please believe me that this is an exercise which is not only difficult,

Page 5592

1 which at times becomes impossible. And I think that General Galic behind

2 me thinks the same thing. It is simply impossible to understand.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as a matter of fact, I changed -

4 although I do not understand the language - a couple of times to the B/C/S

5 channel as well in order to get an impression. And I imagine that perhaps

6 my colleagues did as well, so let me just confer with them.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course we noticed that, at

9 occasions, it was difficult to understand the witness. This Chamber at

10 this moment relies on the interpreters. They indicated a few times that

11 they could not understand what was said and therefore were not able to

12 interpret. This Chamber takes it that if the interpreters are able to

13 translate, and it's not just one interpreter but several of them who have

14 to interpret, if they can understand it, even if it's difficult, and since

15 this Chamber trusts that whenever they feel that they could not or were

16 hesitant to do so, they will indicate this, the Chamber thinks that we

17 could proceed.

18 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

19 MR. IERACE:

20 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, what was Baba?

21 A. It was in front of so-called Osmice, where those Serb forces were,

22 so-called Osmice.

23 Q. What does Baba look like?

24 A. Well, it's a boulder.

25 Q. Can you see it in the photograph which is in front of you now?

Page 5593

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Page 5594

1 A. I think that it's to the right above those buildings, as far as I

2 can see. I don't know.

3 Q. When you say "above those buildings," what colour are the

4 buildings in the photograph?

5 A. White.

6 Q. I will move the photograph slowly to the right. If it is the

7 wrong direction, please tell me. Is that the direction that you mean?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think this is

10 just too leading for the Defence.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: The answer given by the witness was not very clear.

13 So, Mr. Ierace, you should be in a position to ask for a clarification of

14 the answer. Whether the way he did it was so clear for the witness that

15 we could expect a more precise answer, that's a different matter. I had

16 some difficulties in understanding the question, Mr. Ierace. So perhaps

17 if you could rephrase your question.

18 MR. IERACE:

19 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, you said that you think that Baba was to the

20 right above the white buildings. Can you see Baba in the photograph now?

21 A. Yes, I can see it. I saw it before. But if you took me there,

22 I'd give you all the places. But like this -- and I cannot quite follow.

23 Q. All right.

24 Now, on the video you were asked to point in the direction that

25 you heard the shot. What was in that direction? What places?

Page 5595

1 A. Osmice, so-called Osmice. I pointed at it, and there was another

2 direction called Kula. Now where the bullet exactly came from, I don't

3 know.

4 Q. Which forces controlled Kula at that time?

5 A. Serb again.

6 Q. In what area was Kula?

7 A. I didn't get you.

8 Q. I'll withdraw that question. How far away was Kula from where you

9 were when you heard the shot?

10 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you how many kilometres, but it's

11 not all that far.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would that be a convenient time?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, perhaps we first explain to

14 Sarajevo that we'll have a break.

15 Mrs. Bajraktarevic, we will have a break now for one hour and a

16 half. This means that your examination has not been concluded yet, but

17 we'll continue after the lunch break, one hour and a half from now.

18 Did you understand that?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. We'll adjourn until local time

21 2.30.

22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

23

24

25

Page 5596

1 --- On resuming at 2.42 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The technicians have tried to work hard to improve

3 the quality of the sound. I hope it is better, and may I ask the Defence

4 whenever there is a line or a word you cannot hear, of course you're

5 always allowed to ask these lines or words to be repeated because bad

6 sound quality shouldn't mean that you finally have no access to the

7 testimony itself.

8 Mr. Ierace, are you ready to resume your examination-in-chief?

9 MR. IERACE: I am. Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, you will now see another photograph on the

11 screen in front of you. Can you see the photograph?

12 A. Yes, of course.

13 Q. You will notice that this photograph is taken from a road. In the

14 background, having regard to your earlier evidence, do you recognise

15 Sarajevo?

16 A. It's not very visible.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, Your Honours, we do not have that

18 picture on the screen here.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's exactly the issue that

21 I wanted to raise, that is the question that I wanted to ask. But I just

22 heard Ms. Kelly saying that there's no photograph on the screen. Do we

23 have it then, or not?

24 JUDGE ORIE: We have it on our screen under the bottom, "computer

25 evidence."

Page 5597

1 THE REGISTRAR: We have it now, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I hear that Ms. Philpott confirms that they have

3 it on the screen as well. If everyone has it on the screen, then please

4 proceed, Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the record, the screen is now

6 displaying Exhibit P3279SS.

7 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, do you recognise Sarajevo in the background of

8 the photograph?

9 A. I can see it, yes.

10 Q. I will now move the photograph around to the right.

11 Please accept from me that this photograph was taken on the spot

12 where you were standing during the video that you saw this morning. I

13 will continue to move the photograph to the right.

14 On the video, you were seen to indicate the house which now

15 appears on the screen as the place where you obtained some water or went

16 for help. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. You said this morning that the reservoir was below this road, that

19 is, I take it, the road which appears in the photograph. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, but above the fence, towards the car.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. And then below the road.

23 Q. All right. I will continue to move the photograph to the right.

24 We have now completed a complete circuit of the photograph. Mrs.

25 Bajraktarevic, during the war, did you see anyone else who had apparently

Page 5598

1 been shot in that area?

2 A. Yes. I stated that there was another woman who was gathering wood

3 in more or less the same way, so she hadn't finished yet. The fog

4 dispersed in the meantime, and then she continued. And then a bullet hit

5 her in the stomach. I had already left by that time, but I could see her

6 being taken away in a wheelbarrow or in a cart. She was later taken to

7 hospital where she died.

8 Q. Do you know her name?

9 A. Yes. Fadila Peljto, Dila. That's what people called her, Dila.

10 Q. Coming back to the photograph on the screen, do you happen to know

11 the name of the road which appears in the photograph?

12 A. We called it Prasine. The road leading to Brajkovac.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that completes examination-in-chief.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

16 Ms. Pilipovic, you're going to cross-examine the witness?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Bajraktarevic, you'll now be examined by counsel

19 for the Defence.

20 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Bajraktarevic, good afternoon.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. Can you confirm that on the 6th of May, 2001, you gave a statement

Page 5599

1 to the investigators of the Prosecution?

2 A. I did give a statement, but I don't remember the date.

3 Q. Prior to that interview which you gave to the investigators, did

4 you have any other conversations of the kind, or was it the only one?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. Can you tell us how it came about that you gave a statement to the

7 OTP investigators?

8 A. Yes, I can tell you that.

9 Q. Please do so.

10 A. You know, there was this man who had probably been there to see

11 them before, this friend of mine who saw the other man being hit. He was

12 the one who gave the statement first. Since it was his friend who got

13 killed, I think that it must have been his wife who told them my name, and

14 that is how they came to know about me.

15 Q. Very well, thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I specifically ask your attention

17 for a short pause between the next question. And, Mrs. Bajraktarevic, I

18 see that you're answering the question already when you heard the first

19 part of it. Would you please wait until the whole question has been put

20 to you, and then perhaps wait for another second before answering the

21 question because everything has to be translated, and if you speak the

22 same language, it goes too quick for the interpreters.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5600

1 Q. Ms. Bajraktarevic, the person who gave the statement you said was

2 the wife of the man, that is, that was the wife who referred the

3 investigators to you, was that Sopi Bajrami?

4 A. Well, who else could it have been?

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. According to the

6 translation of the witness's answer, she quite clearly said it was the man

7 who gave the statement, not the man's wife.

8 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I can see, that is -- Ms. Pilipovic, is

9 there --?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't say that it

11 was the wife of the late Sopi Bajrami who gave the statement. My

12 colleague must have misunderstood me or maybe my words have been

13 misinterpreted.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think there might be some misunderstanding at

15 this very moment. Please proceed. Could you perhaps rephrase the

16 question in such a way --

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- that whatever misunderstandings there are, they

19 will be taken away.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Ms. Bajraktarevic, are you telling us that the gentleman whom you

22 said is the late Bajram Sopi, was he the person who gave the statement to

23 the investigators of the OTP and that it was the wife?

24 A. That is what they told me.

25 Q. Thank you. Ms. Bajraktarevic, if I tell you that Mr. Sopi Bajram,

Page 5601

1 in the statement that he gave to the investigators on the 27th of

2 February, 1996, on page 2, case number 0090-6747, never at any point in

3 time mentioned the fact that you were with him, can you tell us why it was

4 that the late Sopi Bajram failed to mention you?

5 A. I can explain that: He didn't know me. As for Sacir, who was

6 killed, it was his wife who knew me. She was the one who knew me. So I

7 guess it must have been Sacir's wife who told them about me.

8 Q. Did you know the late Sopi Bajram? Did you ever see him?

9 A. Yes, I used to see him very often.

10 Q. Can you tell us where it was that you saw him?

11 A. He would pass by my house where I live. But I didn't have any

12 contact with him.

13 Q. Can you tell us where the late Sacir Bosnic lived?

14 A. The name of the street is, I think, Debelo Brdo.

15 Q. Before Sacir Bosnic was killed, did you associate with the Sacir

16 -- that is, Bosnic family, I'm sorry?

17 A. No, no. We would just greet each other when we saw each other.

18 Q. How frequently did you go to that area of the town to gather wood?

19 A. Sometimes every day, and sometimes every few days.

20 Q. Can you confirm that on that occasion when you went there to

21 gather wood and when Sacir Bosnic was killed, had you already done so?

22 Had you already been to that area to gather wood, or was that the first

23 time?

24 A. I had already done so on several occasions.

25 Q. Before that, when you came to the area to gather wood, did you

Page 5602

1 ever hear about any shooting incidents in that neighbourhood?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you know that there was a front line in that area of the town

4 and that it was some 300 or 40 metres [as interpreted]?

5 A. I guess that was the case, yes.

6 Q. Do you know which army was deployed in that part of the town; the

7 BH army or the VRS?

8 A. Yes, I know. It was the army of Republika Srpska that was

9 deployed there, that is, up there in the higher ground, whereas there were

10 no troops whatsoever in the area where we went to gather wood.

11 Q. Can you tell us, with respect to the part of the town where you

12 gathered wood, where the BH army positions were?

13 A. Below, below their positions.

14 Q. In relation to the part of the city which you tell us is called

15 Brajkovac, in relation to that part, because you say that the troops of

16 the army of BH was below, can you tell us approximately where was the --

17 where were the troops of the army of BH, or Bosnian Army?

18 A. I don't know. I couldn't say. I never went up there.

19 Q. From that part of the city where you collected firewood, does one

20 see hills called Colina Kapa, Mala, and Velika?

21 A. Yes, but it's further on.

22 Q. Can you tell us if in that part of the city that you lived in, if

23 there was a school there?

24 A. Yes, there was.

25 Q. Can you tell us how far was the school from the place where you

Page 5603

1 lived?

2 A. Well, it was quite near.

3 Q. If I tell you that Bosnian soldiers gathered in the school when

4 going to the front line, would that be correct?

5 A. Yes. That is where they had their kitchen, their mess.

6 Q. Can you tell us, where did the soldiers sleep, those who had their

7 meals there?

8 A. At home.

9 Q. You lived in your house alone, or did you have your family with

10 you?

11 A. My husband.

12 Q. And your sons?

13 A. They were not there.

14 Q. Was one of your sons wounded during the conflict?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was he a member of the BH army?

17 A. Yes, he was.

18 Q. Was any other of your sons a member of the BH army?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us where your sons who are members of the BH army,

21 where did they go to the positions? Where was their front line?

22 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that, but in Sarajevo, basically.

23 Q. During the conflict, did they come to your place?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did your sons who are members of the BH army in 1992, 1993, and

Page 5604

1 1994 come to your place, to your house?

2 A. Yes, they did.

3 Q. Can you tell us, what army unit did they belong to?

4 A. I can't, no.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President. I object on the basis of relevance.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please respond to the objection,

7 Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these questions are

9 relevant. Through these questions, the Defence wishes to check the

10 credibility of the witness, especially bearing in mind the statement which

11 the witness gave to the OTP investigators on the 6th of May, 2001.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I fail to see how the identification

14 of the army units to which this witness's sons belonged is in any way

15 relevant to the credibility of this witness as to what she saw happen a

16 couple of kilometres from where she lived.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please respond, Ms. Pilipovic.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when appreciating the

19 statement of the witness during the examination-in-chief, the statement

20 that she gave to the OTP investigators, bearing in mind that the witness

21 does not remember either the time or the place or the time when the

22 incident happened which she allegedly eyewitnessed, assessing her

23 statement during the examination-in-chief, we believe it is relevant so as

24 to check as credibility, to question the witness as regards where she

25 lived, with whom she lived, and whether in the part of the city that she

Page 5605

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 5606

1 lived in, there were any troops.

2 During the examination-in-chief, the witness said that she never

3 saw any soldiers or any military target; and yet today, when asked by the

4 Defence, she said that near the place she lived, there was a school where

5 soldiers gathered. The Defence only wishes to check whether in the school

6 where the soldiers gathered there was any member of Witness

7 Bajraktarevic's family.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if that is what you seek to establish,

10 whether any of the family members were there, you're entitled to do so.

11 Please ask, then, that question to the witness.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mrs. -- Witness, did some member of your family, specifically your

14 sons who were members of the BH army, did they come to the school?

15 A. No, they did not.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 Witness, you told us that that day, apart from that one shot, you

18 did not hear anything else. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, it is, but let me tell you, I heard that shot. But there was

20 fire which never stopped, but when Sacir was killed, I got frightened, and

21 I went home because nobody dare go that way.

22 Q. Witness, can you answer truthfully how many shots did you hear at

23 the moment when you were collecting wood with the late Bosnic?

24 A. No. Because I wasn't thinking about it. I wasn't giving it a

25 thought.

Page 5607

1 Q. If I tell you that the late Bajrami Sopi who gave the statement to

2 OTP investigators had said that there was gunfire before that, will you

3 confirm that that was true?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At that place, could you determine from which direction did this

6 gunfire come?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us, from which direction did the gunfire come?

9 A. Yes, but I know that it came from two places. From which one of

10 the two it came, I don't know.

11 Q. Are you telling us that the first place that you identified as

12 allegedly the source of fire, the Osmice motel?

13 A. Yes, yes. Or perhaps Kula. I didn't really look at them. I

14 didn't really look from where a bullet might come.

15 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to what was in that area which you

16 call Osmice? Were there any structures?

17 A. Earlier, there was a hotel; and below that, there was a locality.

18 Q. When you say that there was a hotel, are you telling us that there

19 is no more -- there are no hotels any more there?

20 A. I do not know. I did not go up there.

21 Q. Can you confirm for us that this motel was destroyed and that in

22 that motel, there was fighting between the two armies?

23 A. I do not know.

24 Q. Can you tell us how far is that area that you call Osmice, where

25 the motel was, from the place where you collected firewood?

Page 5608

1 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

2 Q. If you headed for that motel, how long would it take you to get to

3 that place, walking?

4 A. Well, I don't think I would take much, but I never checked.

5 Q. Do you have any knowledge if, in the area of the hotel that you

6 say was called Osmice, there were any positions of the Bosnian Army?

7 A. I wouldn't know.

8 Q. Do you have any knowledge if in that area, in that direction,

9 towards Osmice hotel, there were any positions of the army of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 A. I do not know.

12 Q. When you tell us that the second place which you identify as a

13 place from which gunfire could be opened was Kula --

14 A. Yes, that is so.

15 Q. -- can you then tell us, in relation to the place where you were

16 collecting firewood, where was the place called Kula?

17 A. From Osmice, and then further on, down.

18 Q. When you say "down," "further on," in which direction further on

19 and down?

20 A. To the right of Osmice. That's what I think.

21 Q. Is that the area which leads to the road towards Lukavica?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. From your place where you say that you were at, collecting

24 firewood, can you see that area that you say is called Kula? Can it be

25 seen from there?

Page 5609

1 A. No, no.

2 Q. On the basis of what do you claim that gunfire was opened from

3 that position?

4 A. Why, one sensed that there was gunfire.

5 Q. Earlier on when you went there to collect firewood, did you also

6 hear gunfire from that area that you say is called "Kula"?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How often?

9 A. I never thought about it. It was frequent.

10 Q. When you told us that that school which is near the place, that

11 is, the house where you lived and soldiers went to that school, can you

12 tell us, did you used to see those soldiers?

13 A. Yes, passing by.

14 Q. Can you tell us what they wore?

15 A. Well, one knows how the army was dressed.

16 Q. Can you describe -- can you describe it for us? Were they

17 uniforms and what colour were they?

18 A. Camouflage, many-coloured.

19 Q. Was that the olive-green colour?

20 A. Why, yes, and yellow, too.

21 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, can you tell us if those soldiers carried

22 weapons?

23 A. No, I did not see that.

24 Q. Can you tell us where were the positions of those soldiers who

25 came for their meals to that school?

Page 5610

1 A. No, I don't know. As a woman, it was not my business to inquire

2 about them and look for their whereabouts.

3 Q. Witness, can you tell us the street on which that school was?

4 A. It was called Kasindolska, and adjacent to Cicin Han.

5 Q. Are you telling us that you, too, [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted] I object.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: Having regard to the reasons for the protective

10 measures, I respectfully submit it is inappropriate for the witness to

11 identify the place of her residence. And in my submission, the question,

12 in any event, lacks relevance. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, keeping in mind the protective

14 measures, would you please respond.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour -- Your Honour, the

16 witness did not say the number of the house or flat that he or she lived

17 in, she only mentioned the street, and we think that revealing the

18 identity of the street on which the witness lived will not cause

19 unforeseen problems for the witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE: Hopefully my friend hasn't gone beyond the

22 transcript. So I re-emphasise the need for my friend to respect the

23 protective measures.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll bear it in mind. I

25 apologise. Perhaps it was a slight faux pas on the part of the Defence,

Page 5611

1 but it wasn't deliberate in any way. Thank you.

2 Q. Witness, you said that when the late Bajrami, who was at the same

3 place where you were collecting wood, and that when -- that he asked you

4 to bring water, is that true?

5 A. Yes, yes, it is.

6 Q. Can you tell us, who was in that house where you went to get the

7 water?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So who was there?

10 A. There was a woman who lived all by herself there. But I'd rather

11 not mention her last name. And she has died meanwhile. She's dead.

12 Q. On that occasion, did you ask some other people to come and extend

13 help to the late Sacir?

14 A. Yes, yes, I did.

15 Q. Can you tell us, who were those people?

16 A. I do not know who they were, but they were there nearby, and I

17 begged them to help him. And they came, but I did not see them when they

18 came because I had left straight away. I had gone home, and I went to see

19 Sacir's wife to let her know that Sacir had been wounded so that she would

20 go to the hospital if he would need blood or something so that he could be

21 helped. But it was too late for that.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you just give me one second.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I seek that the transcript be redacted

Page 5612

1 so as to preserve the effect of the protective measures. In particular,

2 lines -- page 72, lines 1 and 2, and then the words spoken by my learned

3 colleague at lines 11 through to 15 would overcome that problem.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I just ask you, if at page 71, line

5 25, last part would be redacted, and then, just for sake of certainty,

6 page 72 line 1 because we do not know exactly what was said in the

7 original language, and therefore I suggested that we would have not only

8 line 1, but also line 2 up until "President." So if "Mr." is out, then I

9 expect what the witness has said is also out, and perhaps the word

10 "President" as well. Would that not solve the problem as far as lines 11

11 until 15 is concerned? Because reference is made to streets, but there is

12 no street any more visible in the transcript before.

13 MR. IERACE: I have no objection to that, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Let me just confer with the registrar for

15 one more second.

16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Witness, you told us that you had talked with people who were near

20 the place where you had been collecting firewood, and that you asked them

21 to extend help to the late Bosnic. Is that true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you please repeat your answer. Is that true?

24 THE INTERPRETER: We've lost the sound completely, Your Honours.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have lost the sound. I cannot

Page 5613

1 hear the witness.

2 A. Yes, I saw them.

3 Q. Yes, now we can hear you, Mrs. -- Witness. Can you please repeat

4 your answer.

5 A. I did not know those people.

6 Q. Can you tell us if they lived there or if they were doing

7 something there?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. If I tell you that in your statement that you gave to the OTP

10 investigators on the 6th of May, 2001, on page 2 - number of the document

11 is 0302-7350 - that you said, and I will quote the penultimate line:

12 "Further on, in a house, there were several men from the civilian defence,

13 so I went there to see if somebody could extend first aid to him."

14 Mrs. Bajraktarevic, did you state this?

15 A. Yes, I did state that. But I did it through that neighbour. She

16 was the one who told me that.

17 Q. What did this neighbour tell you?

18 A. She said that there was that Civil Defence.

19 Q. Can you tell me, what is the Civil Defence?

20 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, it is 3.30 now. How much time do you

22 think you'd still need? If it's more than just a couple of minutes, I'd

23 suggest that we adjourn until tomorrow. But of course, I'm not aware of

24 how much is still in your programme.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has

Page 5614

1 envisaged quite a number of questions. We would like this witness to be

2 shown some video material, and the circular photograph, number --

3 Prosecution Exhibit --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I have to apologise. It seems to be

5 Monday for me as well. We started at half past 2.00, so we usually

6 continue until 4.00. I'm -- I don't know what bothers me, but please

7 proceed. And, yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at any rate, I

9 think I understood that we would have the possibility to state our

10 position regarding the issue raised by Mr. Ierace at the end of the

11 afternoon, so the Defence would like to be given between 5 and 10 minutes

12 maximum in order to clarify its position regarding this matter.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that's fair. So Ms. Pilipovic, you've

14 until that very moment, a little bit over a quarter of an hour, to go, so

15 please proceed. And I apologise again.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, can you tell us, please, what were those

18 people wearing, the people that you went to see?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you at any point in time see any member of the Civil Defence

21 in your neighbourhood?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You are, therefore, telling us that it was from a neighbour that

24 you learned that the people in question were members of the Civil Defence?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5615

1 Q. Can you tell us how many people there were?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You told us that you had gone to see the wife of the late Bosnic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How long did you stay at her place, can you tell us that?

6 A. Yes, I can. I stayed enough to tell her that her husband had been

7 wounded and that she should go to the hospital, if possible, to help him.

8 That's all I said.

9 Q. Can you tell us the name of the street where the Bosnic family

10 lived?

11 A. I'm sorry, but a moment ago, His Honour said that we should not be

12 mentioning names and now you're asking me -- you have asked me even about

13 my street.

14 Q. I'm now asking you about the street where the late Bosnic lived.

15 A. Well, it was Debelo Brdo, if it's not protected; I don't know.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 Do you know if the police came, on that day or later, to see the

18 Bosnic family?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you see the wife of the late Bosnic after that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You told us that you used to see the wife of the late Sopi. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. You mean when I saw her? When I went over to inform them, but I

25 didn't have any specific contact with her. I didn't meet with her.

Page 5616

1 Q. Did you used to see the wife of the late Bajram Sophie?

2 A. No. I didn't have any contact with Bajram either.

3 Q. Is it your testimony that, after this incident - and you don't

4 when this incident happened - you never saw the late Sopi Bajram?

5 A. No. I didn't.

6 Q. Is it true that you didn't see his wife either after that?

7 A. No, I didn't.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this point, the

9 Defence would like to show to the witness the photograph number 3279S,

10 please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic. On the other hand, I

12 have to rectify what I said before, or at least to change. We said the

13 Defence would have 10 minutes at the end of the afternoon session. I have

14 looked at the time spent. I expect you -- that you'd be able to conclude

15 your cross-examination by 4.00, since you then used the same time as the

16 Prosecution did. So for very practical reasons, we would rather prefer to

17 continue and see whether you can conclude the cross-examination of the

18 witness, and then start tomorrow morning first at 9.00 with the other

19 issue raised by Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we

21 are, here in this courtroom, already familiar with the considerable

22 flexibility of the Defence.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it is shown again.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, can you see this photograph? Is it in front

Page 5617

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Page 5618

1 of you?

2 A. No -- oh, yes, I see it now.

3 Q. The hills that we can see on the photograph above this -- above

4 the car --

5 A. Over there, well it's on the opposite side.

6 Q. Could you tell us what area that is?

7 A. I don't know.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for the transcript, perhaps it could

10 be said that the image shown is a section of road with a white van parked

11 alongside it. And having regard to the earlier evidence, the city of

12 Sarajevo is behind the van. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, so you don't know the name of the hills that we can see

17 above the road which you identified and the car which can be seen on the

18 road?

19 A. Excuse me, I said that the road leads up to the area of Kula and

20 Brajkovac. The road that we called Prasine.

21 Q. So you have just confirmed that this is the road leading up to

22 Kula and Brajkovac?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. Are you telling us that the area of Kula was situated within the

25 overall locality of Brajkovac?

Page 5619

1 A. Yes, it is at the end of the road.

2 Q. Can you confirm for us that the portion of the road leading to

3 Brajkovac and the area called Kula was under the control of the BH army?

4 A. Well, yes. When you get to Kula, you turn left, leading towards

5 Osmice. Like you said, there is the street, this road, which leads to

6 Lukavica, yes. This is the same road.

7 Q. Can you confirm that the BH army had its positions in Brajkovac?

8 A. No. I just told you, I never went there when there were troops

9 there and when there was gunfire. The only occasions I went there was

10 when I had to gather wood, firewood. We never dared go there. As for the

11 village of Brajkovac, it was partly destroyed. The houses were torn down,

12 even to this date, many people have not yet returned.

13 Q. Since you're telling us that there were some destroyed houses

14 there, am I to understand that there was fighting in this area of the

15 town?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Why do you say that there was some destroyed houses there?

18 A. It was later on that I went there. I have a friend who lives

19 there.

20 Q. When you say "later," what exactly do you mean? In what year did

21 you go there?

22 A. After the end of the war.

23 Q. Did your friends tell you that there had been fighting in the area

24 and that the Bosnian troops were there?

25 A. No. I didn't care to ask any such questions. These are not

Page 5620

1 affairs of the women.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we move towards

3 the right side of the photograph so that we can see the reservoir.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that does not appear in this

5 photograph. That's in the other photograph.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you like to have the other one, Ms.

7 Pilipovic?

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I apologise. I

9 thought that it could be seen on this photograph.

10 JUDGE ORIE: It's 3279S.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 9S, yes.

12 Q. Witness, can you see on this photograph the location of the

13 reservoir, where it used to be?

14 A. As I said, it could have been a reservoir or just a construction

15 site. I didn't go there. I don't know how it was exactly. But I know

16 that there is a reservoir there.

17 Q. Can you confirm that the reservoir in question was under the

18 Bosnian Army control during the conflict in Sarajevo, and that it was the

19 BH army soldiers who supervised it?

20 A. Well, yes, but I told you that there were no troops in the area.

21 It is a civilian area.

22 Q. Are you telling us that the reservoir was guarded by the BH army

23 during the conflict?

24 A. No. Civilians were there, people who used to work there.

25 Q. Did you have water during the conflict, in your neighbourhood?

Page 5621

1 A. Sometimes we did; sometimes we didn't.

2 Q. Did this reservoir supply your neighbourhood? Was it used to

3 supply your neighbourhood with water?

4 A. No, not my neighbourhood. The so-called Bistrica, that is the

5 name of the location where the water came that we had. It was the water

6 from Bistrica that we got from time to time.

7 Q. Can you tell us which part of the town was supplied with water

8 from this reservoir?

9 A. Of course not. How would I know that? I wasn't interested in

10 that.

11 Q. Witness, during the examination-in-chief, you told us that you

12 knew that in your neighbourhood and in the area of the town where you went

13 to gather wood, firewood, that a woman by the name of Fadila was killed in

14 that area. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us what Fadila was doing at the time she was killed,

17 as you said, and when that was, if you can tell us that, please?

18 A. She was chopping wood on a log, and it was a foggy day. There was

19 fog all around her. She didn't finish her work before the fog lifted.

20 She continued with her work, despite that fact, and that's how a bullet

21 found her, and it hit her in the stomach. I don't know how they managed

22 to take off her clothes. She was simply dragged down to the area that we

23 called Civare [phoen], from where she was taken to hospital where she

24 eventually died.

25 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, during the conflict, that is, during the war

Page 5622

1 in Sarajevo in 1992, 1993, 1994, where exactly that incident took place,

2 can you tell us that?

3 A. No, I don't know. Well, you know, if I had known that I would be

4 here one day as a witness, I would have noted everything down. But I, of

5 course, didn't know that. And I cannot -- yes.

6 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, I would like to put to you that, in the

7 statement that you gave on the 6th of May to the OTP investigators, on the

8 page which ends with 351, that you described the event in question. I can

9 read that out to you. "There was another woman, a neighbour, who was

10 killed by a sniper. She went to the water to wash some clothes."

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. "I think her name was Fadila." Can you tell us, please, what

13 information here is correct; what you stated in your statement or what you

14 testified here before the Court?

15 A. Well, it's all the same. I didn't state anything different.

16 Q. In response to a question by the Prosecution today, you said that

17 she was chopping some firewood, whereas to the investigators you declared

18 that she had gone to the water to wash some clothes.

19 A. First of all, Fadila, or Dila as they called her, she was chopping

20 wood, firewood at the time. And this other woman, she had gone to the

21 water to wash the clothes. She wanted to take some rest, and she got

22 killed.

23 Q. Can you tell us the name of this other woman, the one who went to

24 the water to wash the clothes?

25 A. No, I don't know her name.

Page 5623

1 Q. Why did you tell the OTP investigators that her name was Fadila,

2 then?

3 A. Well, there are two Fadilas; one of them was chopping the

4 firewood, and the other one was washing the clothes. They are both called

5 Fadila, or Dila.

6 Q. When you gave the statement to the OTP investigators, why didn't

7 you tell them that there were two women by the name of Fadila?

8 A. Well, I don't know why.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE: If one looks at the statement, one will see in that

11 same statement, the witness did refer to both women by name.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then of course I have a problem since we do not have

13 the statement. If, Ms. Pilipovic, you're still of the opinion that it's

14 mentioned only once -- yes, I think under these special circumstances, the

15 Chamber...

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I hand up my copy. I've mark the two

18 passages with a black cross.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your

22 permission, what we read in the statement - I don't know whether you have

23 the same one - is that there was a Fadila, the one we talked about -- I'm

24 sorry.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 5624

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

3 whether we have the same statement, but I think it's the one that ends

4 with 652. What we read in the statement is that there was a woman whose

5 name was Fadila, apparently she was hit with a bullet, and she had gone to

6 the water to wash the clothes. This is the woman that we speak about, and

7 not about the one that she went to chop wood.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, first of all, I think that you

9 have not asked permission to deal with the cross-examination together.

10 But apart from that, Mr. Ierace is pointing at the sixth paragraph of page

11 651 as one of the incidents, and the other one, the passage you just

12 indicated. The question was why the witness didn't talk about two women

13 being killed. Mr. Ierace says that he should object against this question

14 because she did refer to two different.

15 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic. Is there anything you'd like to tell us in

16 response? I mean, we just checked on whether there were two incidents.

17 Yes, please.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. Let me try

19 to clarify this with a question to the witness --

20 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no, Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- whether the names Fadila and --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the objection is against the question

23 you put to the witness. That is, why she didn't tell about the second.

24 That objection is sustained. So you can't ask that question.

25 Yes.

Page 5625

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, can you please answer the following question:

3 Is it true that Dila Peljto was killed in the shooting which was done by

4 Serb soldiers, as you testified?

5 A. Yes, she was the one who was gathering firewood.

6 Q. Now, these two events, these two incidents, when did they take

7 place?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. These two persons, were they acquaintances of yours? Did you know

10 them?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How old were they, if you know?

13 A. They were young. But I didn't meet with them on a regular basis.

14 I didn't have any regular contact with them. They had moved to the area

15 from some other place. I mean, they are not from Sarajevo. And that is

16 the reason why I'm not very familiar with --

17 Q. So your testimony is that you had only heard about this incident,

18 that you did not actually eyewitness this incident -- or rather, these

19 incidents when these women were killed?

20 A. No, I didn't see them.

21 Q. So you only heard about these two incidents?

22 A. See, it was impossible for me to see the location where they were

23 killed. Had I been able to see the location, it means that I would have

24 been killed, too. I was in the vicinity, and I could see this Peljto

25 woman being dragged to hospital. That is something that I was able to

Page 5626

1 see.

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, your son who was a member of the army and who

5 was wounded, where was he wounded? In which part of the town?

6 A. On the opposite side from where we lived, in the area of Sarajevo.

7 Q. Can you confirm that your son was taking part in fighting when he

8 was wounded?

9 A. I don't know. I don't know really.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] This concludes our

11 cross-examination of the witness, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Pilipovic.

13 It is 4.00, but I wonder whether there's any need to re-examine

14 the witness, Mr. Ierace? And how much time that would take,

15 approximately.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there is only one issue which may be

17 dealt with perhaps in one question.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Looking at the interpreters' booth, I wanted to

19 stop a half an hour too early. Five minutes extra, would that be

20 acceptable?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we'll do it, Your Honour. But the

22 interference is very bad indeed.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's see whether we can finish.

24 Please, Mr. Ierace.

25 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

Page 5627

1 Q. Mrs. Bajraktarevic, you were asked a question about the road to

2 Brajkovac and Kula. In particular, you were asked who controlled that

3 road. Which of the armed forces controlled that road?

4 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you.

5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Bajraktarevic, you've answered all the questions

9 of both parties, of the Prosecution and the Defence. The Judges have no

10 additional questions to you. That means that this concludes your

11 testimony for this Court. We thank you very much --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We thank you very much for having --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You know how

15 it is. My husband is sick, and I left him. He has been all alone all day

16 today. I don't know how he's doing really. I didn't expect to stay so

17 long.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And at least I'm glad that we could conclude

19 your testimony today. I thank you very much for coming and giving your

20 testimony. And a good and, I hope, a quick trip home again to your

21 husband. Thank you very much.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, let's just see whether we can finish

25 with the exhibits, the documents, which are not documents but videos and

Page 5628

1 electronic photos. Am I right that we have seen today video P3280S; we

2 have seen 360-degrees photograph, 3279S; and another 360-degrees

3 photograph from a different position, 3279SS.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I know that the Defence is objecting against the

6 360-degrees photographs. I take it the objection is also valid here. And

7 you also know how this Chamber decides on these kind of objections. So

8 then they are admitted into evidence.

9 We have another document which has been shown to the Chamber in

10 response to an objection made to one of the questions. It is a witness

11 statement which I think should be marked for identification. It bears the

12 ERN numbers 0203-0650, next page ending with 51, third page ending with

13 52, then another page, 53, and finally, page 54.

14 Mr. Ierace, I noticed that you, apart from the markings you made,

15 especially in support of your objections, these are the black Xs, there

16 are also some red linings or stripes in it. I don't know whether you

17 would prefer to take a new copy or that you would leave it just as it is.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have a clean copy that I could mark

19 in the same fashion with black crosses. So perhaps I could change the one

20 you have for another.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. IERACE: I'll mark it --

23 JUDGE ORIE: I see that there's any objection. Ms. Pilipovic?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We do not have

25 a statement marked that way in English.

Page 5629

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8

9

10

11

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13 English transcripts.

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15

16

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18

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22

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24

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Page 5630

1 JUDGE ORIE: There's no marking. Just in order to indicate the

2 two spots where the witness talks about the first incident, that is, the

3 incident with Dila Peljto, that's the witness statement, the sixth

4 paragraph on page 652, it's just a cross.

5 Mr. Ierace, if you've marked one, I'll perhaps return this one to

6 you. Have a look at it, and then show it to the Defence so that I have

7 not -- it's not necessary to explain everything.

8 MR. IERACE: I'm happy for the Defence to see both,

9 Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course you could give them. We would like to

11 see the second one first. If you perhaps first give the other one already

12 to the Defence, and then the copy replacing.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not know

16 whether I can interfere, but this is a document in English. The Defence

17 will accept the admission of this document, but without any marks or

18 regardless of the colour by anybody at all.

19 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, it's not a question of admitting this

20 document in evidence. It's a matter of marking for identification. This

21 document has been given to the Chamber with the -- I would say the black

22 marking is relevant in it, that it's two Xs, indicating those areas in the

23 statement where the two incidents described and, I would say, ignored in

24 questioning the witness are indicated. That's the document as it is shown

25 to the Chamber and I think, as such, it should be marked for

Page 5631

1 identification because that's the -- but I would rather leave out the red

2 stripes.

3 Madam Registrar, then, this document --

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: I will gladly first give it to you so that you see it

6 is exactly the same, apart from the red stripes.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have full confidence in the

8 Chamber, and you know that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

10 Then, Madam Registrar, this document should be marked for

11 identification. I don't know exactly at what number we are.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I was provided by the Prosecution

13 with identification number MFI-12. Or shall I say identification number

14 12. Sorry. Thank you.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think then we have had everything dealt with

17 which we should deal with. That means that -- yes, Mr. Ierace.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, earlier today you pointed out -- you

19 said, rather, that the Prosecution had not notified the technical section

20 of our intention to show a video. I do apologise for that. We had handed

21 a letter to the registrar last Wednesday, the 13th of March, indicating

22 both the witnesses to be called this week and also the exhibits, including

23 the video. I had not realised there was any further requirement upon us

24 to indicate to the technical people --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As far as I understand, especially also if both

Page 5632

1 a video should be shown and a computer 360-degrees photograph, that they

2 need to prepare this. Of course, I accept your apologies. And perhaps

3 for both parties, if there are high-tech facilities needed, please make

4 sure - I'm not saying that they are not on the list of your exhibits - but

5 please make sure that everyone is well aware of what we need in order to

6 prepare it. Because we had a lot of technical facilities, both face

7 distortion and computer evidence and video, and that takes a lot of lines.

8 MR. IERACE: There will be another video to be shown, not by the

9 next witness, but the witness after. Perhaps I could indicate that at

10 this stage. Thank you, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I assume that the technical booth took

12 notice of that. I see you're nodding.

13 Then I thank everyone for giving the opportunity to

14 Mrs. Bajraktarevic to finish her testimony today, although it took us 12

15 minutes extra. We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, The Hague

16 time.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

18 4.11 p.m., to be reconvened on

19 Tuesday, the 19th day of March, 2002,

20 at 9.00 a.m.

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