Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5725

1 Wednesday, 20 March 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please be so kind to call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Before we resume the cross-examination of the witness, I'd like to

11 remind you that the Court still has to take a decision on Document P2171,

12 which is the redacted translation of the report that was tendered last

13 Friday, especially the English translation. Since you were not there,

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we waited with this decision since it concerns an

15 English text so that whenever there are any objections, that they could be

16 made. So may I remind you to that, if there are any objections to be

17 made, that it should be done by today.

18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, apart from that, I see that you're on your

19 feet.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, thank

21 you. I am going to examine the first point and to state the position of

22 the Defence. Thank you in advance.

23 I'd like to say, Mr. President, that we have had an agreement with

24 the Prosecution -- we reached it a moment ago -- with respect to a

25 question linked to the translation of the documents that are relevant to

Page 5726

1 this particular witness, Mr. Dzonko, and this translation, with respect to

2 the black box -- that we termed black box and white box. And I should

3 like to be authorised to give me three minutes to say something at the end

4 of the cross-examination. May I be accorded three minutes, because we did

5 reach an agreement, myself and Mr. Ierace, on one particular point. Thank

6 you in advance.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll be glad to grant you three minutes in order

8 to inform us about an agreement between the parties. Then,

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'll ask to the registrar in Sarajevo to bring in

10 Mr. Dzonko again.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Dzonko. Can you hear me in a

13 language you understand?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. Good morning.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Dzonko.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It's good to see that you are there, and also good to

18 see that you're wearing your glasses. Thank you very much for bringing

19 them. Mr. Dzonko, may I remind you that you're still bound by the solemn

20 declaration you gave yesterday. Now, the cross-examination by counsel for

21 the Defence will resume.

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 [Witness testified through videolink]

Page 5727

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dzonko. Can you hear me?

3 A. Yes, I can.

4 Q. Thank you for your answer. We stopped off yesterday when we were

5 talking about -- and could you confirm this -- that one of your daughters

6 was called Mrs. Golo. Is that right? Is your daughter's name Mrs. Golo?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness.

9 We were discussing the question of soldiers, actually, and you said that

10 you saw some soldiers belonging to the Bosnian army, that is to say, the

11 Sarajevo army, round about, in the environs. Could you confirm that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Witness, now, with respect to the passage -- and when I use the

14 word "passage," I am referring to what you yourself indicated as being the

15 passage or passageway between two blocks of houses, residential blocks.

16 Now, in respect of that passage, do you know where the army that you call

17 the Sarajevo army was located? Where were they?

18 A. There seems to be some noise.

19 Q. Witness, have you understood the question? Do you understand?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Could you give us an answer, please.

22 A. Well, I don't know where they were, where the army was. I just

23 saw them going to the kitchen. On their way to the kitchen, I would see

24 one or two of them passing by, without any weapons.

25 Q. Witness, you have just told me that at the front line, the

Page 5728

1 soldiers weren't carrying arms, weren't armed. Am I right in

2 understanding that?

3 A. Whether they had weapons or not at the front line, I don't know,

4 but when they were on their way to the kitchen, then they went walking in

5 a normal fashion, a normal way, ordinary.

6 Q. Witness, the front lines were 50 metres away from your apartment;

7 is that correct?

8 A. Well, thereabouts. Fifty or sixty perhaps, metres.

9 Q. All right. Witness, you said in one of your statements that you

10 gave to the interviewers that you could see the soldiers and that you

11 could know whether they were wearing uniforms or whether they were not in

12 uniform; is that correct? You could see that?

13 A. That's correct, yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, you also said in one of your statements, the

15 one that we were examining yesterday, that you were aware of the fact that

16 the army were in an apartment, had premises in an apartment block near

17 your own. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Witness, when you say "close by," close to your apartment block,

20 what do you mean by "close"? How close?

21 A. Well, I would see them passing by on their way to breakfast, to

22 have breakfast or lunch. When there was a ceasefire, when there was no

23 shooting, I would see some of them walking past.

24 Q. Witness, to go back to your statement, how far away were these

25 premises where the army was from your apartment? Could you give us an

Page 5729

1 idea in metres? What distance would you say it was?

2 A. I think it was about 100 to 150 metres. I heard them there,

3 because they were moving through the trenches, the connecting trenches, so

4 you couldn't really see them very well, but you could see them entering

5 and leaving the building.

6 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt? I hear that here in the

7 courtroom we have -- it seems to have a loudspeaker on in the original

8 language, which is not of great assistance to us.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right now.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I wasn't aware that the

12 loudspeaker was switched on, Mr. President. I do apologise, and thank you

13 for intervening.

14 Thank you, Mr. Usher, as well, for your assistance.

15 Q. Witness, you indicated to us the presence of military trenches.

16 Now, these trenches, could you see them from your apartment? Could you

17 see the trenches?

18 A. No.

19 Q. But did you know where they were?

20 A. Well, I didn't know that either, because I wasn't able to go into

21 that part of town.

22 Q. Witness, yesterday you saw a number of photographs. Do you

23 remember the photographs? Do you remember seeing them?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Witness, on the photographs that you were shown, could you see the

Page 5730

1 area and premises of the army that you mentioned?

2 A. No, you can't see it.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, may I have your

4 assistance again, please. I should like you to place on the ELMO a

5 photograph, and the number of the photograph is -- the last digits are 35,

6 from a series of photographs. I think that the registrar can provide you

7 with those photographs. It is a photograph which shows residential

8 blocks, with the headquarters. Would you please place it on the ELMO.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Can you see these apartment blocks now on the photograph which is

12 on your screen, Witness? Can you see that photograph and those --

13 A. No, I can't see anything. I don't see them.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] I need the assistance of the

15 technical booth.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Or perhaps should the --

17 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Your Honour, we do not have the image

18 on the screen.

19 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the assistance of the technical booth in

20 order to take care that the image we see on our screen now will also be

21 seen on the screen in Sarajevo.

22 Ms. Philpott, you still are not able to see on the screen in

23 Sarajevo, the picture?

24 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] That's correct, Your Honour. We do

25 not have the photograph.

Page 5731

1 JUDGE ORIE: Not even under another button or...

2 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] No.

3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

5 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Your Honour, now we have the

6 photograph.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I just received the confirmation that the picture is

8 on the screen in Sarajevo now. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Would

9 you please use your microphone.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Sorry for that, sir.

11 [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar, for your assistance.

12 Q. Witness, I think you can now see the photograph. It is

13 number 1212/36 -- 35, sorry. Can you see it properly?

14 A. Yes, I can.

15 Q. Witness, in one or other of the buildings that we see on the

16 photograph, the residential blocks, at the time that we are

17 discussing -- at the material time, that is to say, the summer of 1992 to

18 the summer of 1994, were there premises that were used by the Sarajevo

19 army in those houses, as you call them the Sarajevo army?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Very well. Witness, you said that you were living with your

22 son-in-law. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Witness, your son-in-law at that time, was he called to the

25 colours?

Page 5732

1 A. Yes. And he worked in Unioninvest. He was at Bembasa, but he was

2 called up, but he was working at Bembasa.

3 Q. Witness, was your son-in-law incorporated in the army? Was he

4 called up?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Witness, your son-in-law at that time, was he called to fight?

7 Was he called up to fight, to engage in combat?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Witness, was -- while he was incorporated in the army, where did

10 your son-in-law sleep?

11 A. Well, in the house.

12 Q. Witness, does that mean where you yourself lived? In that house,

13 is that what you mean?

14 A. Yes, but I was not there at that time. I only came to Trnovac,

15 and when I arrived, then they came to fetch him from Unioninvest to go and

16 work at the Bambesa. And he worked there for two or three years until the

17 liberation.

18 Q. Witness, what was his occupation?

19 A. He worked at the Unioninvest with water, for those -- for that

20 water which was there. And he worked there, and he was the boss there.

21 Q. Witness, does that mean to organise the distribution of water in

22 Sarajevo? Is that what he did?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. And your son-in-law was active during two or three years of the

25 war, is it?

Page 5733

1 A. Yes, when he was dealing with this water, engaged with water.

2 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.

3 Do you know if your daughter, who is now called Mrs. Golo, that

4 she also gave a statement to OTP investigators? Did she give a

5 statement? When we speak about Mrs. Golo, is that the person that you

6 live with? Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.

9 You are saying that you could not see the trenches. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, it is. I never dared go there.

12 Q. I'm referring, Witness, to those near your apartment.

13 A. No, no, no. One could not see them because it was to the left. I

14 don't know how many metres away.

15 Q. Very well, Witness. I will now read out to you the statement

16 which your daughter made. I will read it in Serbian, and I apologise in

17 advance, but I hope you will understand me.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I shall be very

19 happy to place a copy on the ELMO.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I assume that my learned colleague

22 proposes to contradict some aspect of this witness's evidence with

23 something from a statement. Perhaps he could indicate in advance which

24 part of Ms. Golo's statement he proposes to read in that regard. He could

25 refer, perhaps, to the relevant paragraph. Because if it is on the point

Page 5734

1 that the trenches can or cannot be seen from the apartment, I'm unsure as

2 to what part of Ms. Golo's statement it could be.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please inform Mr. Ierace,

4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, on which part you're about to read.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall be happy to do that,

6 but I do not know if the witness can hear us. But I can say that

7 because -- so that Mr. Ierace can find it. Mr. Ierace will find it like

8 this: It is Document Number ERN 0303-4033 [as interpreted], and it is the

9 Serbian text which I have before me. So will you please take it up,

10 Mr. Ierace, the second sentence in the passage beginning with the word

11 "night," or "the night," or "during the night."

12 Do you have this text before you, Mr. Ierace?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the text be placed on the ELMO, please, in

14 some language so that interpreters know what it is.

15 MR. IERACE: Again, I ask that Mr. Piletta-Zanin simply indicate

16 the paragraph as well as the sentence.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Third paragraph, second

18 sentence.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The first page?

20 MR. IERACE: I have no objection, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. Witness, before I was interrupted, I was about to read you a

24 sentence, and I will read it in Serbian. I apologise, but if necessary,

25 we can place it on the screen so that with your eyeglasses you can read it

Page 5735

1 as well as I will, and I will wait that this be done so that you can read

2 it. It is the second sentence of the third passage: "At night -- "

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: The appropriate procedure is simply for my friend to

5 read the sentence rather than place the whole paragraph on the ELMO.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness testified

7 yesterday that he could decipher letter by letter a text and then finally

8 he would be able to put together a few letters to words. So please, if

9 you did not provide the interpreters' booth, would you just read very

10 slowly the part you are putting to the witness, and I don't think it's of

11 any use to put it on the ELMO at this very moment.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is exactly

13 what I was about to do.

14 Usher, will you please put the text on the ELMO.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No. I said it would be of no use to put it on the

16 ELMO if you read the line slowly in the language.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. So I'm

18 quoting the second sentence in the third passage, which reads as follows,

19 Witness: "At night I would see bullets getting at us from Nedzarici and

20 which were returned from Bosnian trenches."

21 Thank you for the perfect interpretation into French.

22 Q. Witness, did you hear this sentence?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You heard it, but did you also understand it?

25 A. Why, yes, I did, but I was never on that side, because after I was

Page 5736

1 wounded, I kept keeping to this other side.

2 Q. Witness, I have to interrupt you.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please not speak over the

4 witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when the witness is talking, would

6 you please wait, unless there's a good reason to stop him, but just then

7 leave it to ask him to stop, and nothing else, otherwise the interpreters

8 cannot follow us.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I apologise.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, is it correct that your daughter could

11 see, at night, the gunfire, and that this gunfire was returned from

12 Bosnian trenches? Is that true?

13 A. It is true. She could see it, because she slept on the right

14 side, downstairs. And I was with the children, next to the street. I had

15 to look after the children so they don't get away, and I, therefore, could

16 not see it.

17 Q. Witness, you are telling us that throughout these events which

18 interest us, that is, during those two -- that is, three years -- 1992,

19 1993, 1994 -- you never went into the room where your daughter slept so as

20 to see the trenches?

21 A. I did not.

22 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

23 A. I could not see them, but --

24 MR. IERACE: The relevant passage refers to night-time --

25 A. I was not there.

Page 5737

1 MR. IERACE: -- and bullets being seen at night-time. It is not a

2 decisive passage to the effect that the trenches themselves could be seen,

3 especially at night. Therefore, the question put to the witness

4 misrepresents the passage from the statement.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please rephrase the question,

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, you were about to tell me, is that correct, that you

9 never had an opportunity during the three years that we are talking about

10 to go into the room in question or next to the room in question at any

11 time?

12 A. I could go there, and I did, but when there was gunfire, I didn't

13 know where it was coming from, from one side or the other, but I did not

14 see it.

15 Q. Witness, when you went to that side, to that wing of the

16 apartment, could you see the trenches that your daughter saw living there,

17 or not?

18 A. No, I did not. I did not.

19 Q. Witness, why couldn't you see the trenches if your daughter could

20 see them from that same place?

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I make the same objection. The

22 witness, the deponent to this statement, is clearly referring to tracer

23 fire because she refers to bullets being fired at night. She does not

24 state explicitly that she saw the trenches from which the fire came. That

25 may well have been a presumption on her part, and therefore again my

Page 5738

1 learned colleague is not entitled to -- presumption to the witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is sustained. Would you please

3 keep this in mind, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Serb text

5 of this witness says expressly -- and I have it before me and I will read

6 it. It reads explicitly that one could see the fire which was returned

7 from Serb trenches, and it is mentioned in the Serb text from Bosnian

8 trenches. And this witness, Golo, who is not still a witness but might

9 be, she is confirming the presence of trenches, and contrary to what

10 Mr. Ierace is saying, this -- in this statement, this was an explicit

11 reference to trenches which this witness said that she had seen, at least

12 in Serbian language. I do not know whether this will affect your

13 decision, or do you still sustain the objection?

14 JUDGE ORIE: As you quoted yourself, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the

15 statement of Ms. Golo you quoted was that one could see the fire which was

16 returned from Serb trenches. Your interpretation of this line is,

17 although the text doesn't say that, that she could see the trenches from

18 which fire was returned, which is a different thing, and I -- the line as

19 such does not clearly indicate how Ms. Golo knew that the source of the

20 fire was from the trenches. It does not explicitly say that she could see

21 the trenches when the fire was returned. So the decision will remain the

22 same. Please proceed.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. Witness, you said, and I think repeated several times, that in

25 that area fighting was a daily occurrence. Is that correct? Can you

Page 5739

1 confirm it for us?

2 A. That's right, yes.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness. Witness, still in relation to the fighting,

4 you said that the soldiers that you saw, that some of those soldiers that

5 you saw wore uniforms and others didn't. Can you please confirm this.

6 A. Yes, that is quite true.

7 Q. And what do you mean "some yes and some no"? What do you mean by

8 this?

9 A. They didn't have any uniforms. I guess that is. I wouldn't

10 know. I didn't ask them.

11 Q. The soldiers, if I understand you well, who were active-duty

12 soldiers, they did not have uniforms? Is that how I should understand

13 you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.

16 Witness, we shall now put on the ELMO with the help of the usher

17 here in The Hague a photograph which is 1211/34A.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we please have this

19 photograph on the ELMO. I could give you my own copy.

20 Q. Witness, you will see -- at least I hope so -- a photograph which

21 represents the view from your kitchen. Can you see it?

22 A. Yes, I can.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, you said that yesterday and you pointed that

24 you had been wounded on your left-hand side. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 5740

1 Q. You told us that the bullet had come from the passage that one can

2 see far away, slightly to the left of the centre in that photograph. Is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Is it also correct that the bullet went through the carpentry

6 element before it hit you? Is that correct?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The French interpretation was

8 perfect.

9 Q. After the bullet went through the carpentry element, the door

10 frame, it hit you. Is that correct?

11 A. No, it is not. It hit the wall and then ricochetted from the

12 wall, and that is how it hit me on the left.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness.

14 I now want to move on to a different series of questions.

15 Witness, are you aware of a school in the vicinity of your apartment?

16 A. No. No -- oh, yes. Children went to the cellar behind our

17 building to the left. That is where they went. But the school, no. The

18 school was far away in the Serb...

19 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.

20 You said, I believe at the time of your earlier statement, that

21 you were perfectly acquainted with the place from which the bullets -- the

22 bullet could have come, the bullet that hit you. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Witness, did you say that the bullet came from the Faculty of

25 Theology?

Page 5741

1 A. Because it couldn't have come from anywhere else. That was the

2 only possible place.

3 Q. Witness, did you lose anyone close to you during the war because

4 of the war?

5 A. Well, you know, I lost my brother, two sons-in-law, a grandchild,

6 and very many other relations.

7 Q. Witness, don't you feel resentful, bitter, now?

8 A. Well, of course one cannot forget what one's lost.

9 Q. Witness, how could you be so emphatic and affirm categorically

10 that the bullet came from the Faculty of Theology?

11 A. Well, you know what everybody says, and I always said, that it

12 couldn't have come from anywhere else except there at that height because

13 it must have been fired from the roof because that is how it travelled.

14 Otherwise, it wouldn't have hit that way, reached the target that way.

15 Q. Witness, isn't it true that you said in one of your statements

16 that in the beginning, you had been told by somebody that a bullet could

17 have come from the Faculty of Theology?

18 A. Well, it was in this direction, between the buildings. Of course,

19 we are assuming. I'm not affirming that.

20 Q. Yes, but my question was the following: Isn't it true that you

21 were told that a bullet could have come from the Faculty of Theology?

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'd be grateful if my friend could

23 refer me to the statement by its date and by its page and by its paragraph

24 before the witness answers that question.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate the source,

Page 5742

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will do it right away,

3 Mr. President. I'm trying to find my way between the English and the

4 Serbian text so as to give you the -- an exact answer. Just a moment.

5 Meanwhile, I will ask you a different series of questions.

6 Q. Witness, I'd like you to confirm to us a document which was shown

7 you yesterday and which was this "discharge from the hospital" document

8 which you saw about ten days ago for the first time, that is, at least

9 what you said. That is at least what you said yesterday during the

10 examination-in-chief.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the witness did not say that he saw

13 the document for the first time ten days ago.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please indicate where

15 the witness testified that it was ten days ago that he saw the document

16 for the first time.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I recall, Mr. President, that

18 that is what the witness said yesterday during the direct examination. Do

19 you want me to look for the exact line?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The line, Mr. President,

22 yesterday is page 5674, and I am reading the English but I was listening

23 to the Serbian, so my recollection might be slightly different. The

24 question was: [In English] "And when have you seen it before?"

25 [Interpretation] And to that question, the answer was as follows: [In

Page 5743

1 English] "Ten days ago."

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I assume that you

3 understood the objection of Mr. Ierace. Your question was that he saw it

4 for the first time ten days ago. That was what your question was about.

5 The witness said that he has seen it ten days before, but not that that

6 was the first time that he saw it. At least, not in the line you

7 indicate.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the very next question and answer I

9 think will clarify the situation.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The next question was: "All right. And before then,

11 had you seen it? In other words, apart from ten days ago, had you seen it

12 before?" "I don't remember. Maybe I forgot." That's what it says. So

13 that confirms again that at least it's not the testimony of the witness

14 that he saw it for the first time ten days ago.

15 So the objection is sustained.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 Q. Witness --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. It is

19 quite possible that the witness has indeed forgotten it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You are putting to the witness that he testified that

21 he saw it for the first time ten days ago. There's an objection against

22 that. There's no reason to comment on it any more. It's not what the

23 witness testified.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No comment whatsoever,

Page 5744

1 Mr. President. Thank you.

2 May I confer with my colleague, please, five seconds.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like

7 to go back to the statement and the portion quoted yesterday. It was a

8 statement, and the number of it was 0090-8226. And the date of it was the

9 13th of November, 1994 -- 9-5, I'm sorry. 1995.

10 Q. And in that statement, you said that they indicated to you that

11 the bullet came from that direction. Now, Witness, do you confirm the

12 statement you made on the 13th of November, 1995, and the statement was

13 given to Mr. Jan Van Hecke?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'll withdraw my objection at this

16 stage, given the last few words of the question.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I see

19 that after all this time that we've lost, the objection has been

20 retracted.

21 Q. But Witness, could you tell us, yes or no, do you confirm it or

22 not?

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, confirm what? The question asked

24 earlier started off with the proposition which is not an accurate

25 reflection of the statement. It then was refined to whether he confirms

Page 5745

1 that he made a statement on a particular date and that the statement was

2 given to a particular investigator. So perhaps he could clarify it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please clarify since the

4 question, as it reads from the transcript, is --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. My

6 question before the interruption made and retracted by Mr. Ierace was:

7 "You said that you were told that the bullet came from the area quoted,

8 that is to say, the Faculty of Theology."

9 Q. Is that right?

10 A. Well, yes, that's right.

11 Q. Very well. Took us a long time.

12 Witness, who told you that?

13 A. Well, everybody who was standing there. Actually, it couldn't

14 have come from any other direction than from the direction where the

15 theological faculty is.

16 Q. Witness, thank you for your answer, but am I right in saying that

17 this assertion on your part, this affirmation, is only what you heard

18 people say, what you heard other people say? Is that right? Am I right

19 in understanding that?

20 A. Correct.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I take a moment to confer,

22 Mr. President, please?

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that we've finished

25 with this witness. I would like three more minutes, but after the

Page 5746

1 witness, if I may. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, is there any need to re-examine the

3 witness?

4 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dzonko, I've got one question for you.

8 A. Yes, please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You repeatedly told us that the bullet could not have

10 come from any other source than from the Faculty of Theology.

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: You also testified that other people told you that it

13 should have been from the Faculty of Theology that the bullet came from.

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So we are talking about a conclusion as to where the

16 bullet came from. Was this just the conclusion of the other people who

17 told you where the bullet came from or would that also be your own

18 conclusion?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Dzonko.

21 A. Well, no. I couldn't say. That's what they assume. I don't

22 know.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And so I do understand you that that's not your

24 assumption but just the assumption of the other people?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5747

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you very much.

2 Mr. Ierace --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think Judge Nieto-Navia has a question for you in

5 relation to the testimony of the witness.

6 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: My question is the following: This document,

7 2771, the medical release, which is the one with the dark areas and signed

8 by the witness, this document, was it disclosed to the Defence? If your

9 answer is yes, please tell me when.

10 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, it was disclosed twice. It was first

11 disclosed on the 8th of June, 2000, and on the second occasion, on the 6th

12 of November, 2001. I'm sorry. The 26th of November, 2001 was the second

13 occasion.

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dzonko --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: This concludes your examination as a witness in this

18 Court. I thank you very much for coming, especially also for returning

19 today after you spent already quite some time yesterday. You will

20 understand that it's important for this Court to hear the answers to

21 questions put by both parties to the witnesses while preparing for the

22 decisions that we'll have to take.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for coming. You are released now

25 as a witness.

Page 5748

1 Ms. Philpott, we'll need a couple of minutes in The Hague before

2 the examination of the next witness will start.

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the three minutes, would that be prior to our

4 decisions on the -- yes, please proceed.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I, Mr. President?


8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President,

9 with respect to the documents and the question raised by Judge Nieto-Navia

10 a moment ago, to draw your -- tell you the following: To copy two sets of

11 documents, because it is necessary for us to know exactly what the Chamber

12 is confronted with. So I suggest that I circulate these two sets of

13 documents. We have them for the Defence, for the Registry and the Trial

14 Chamber. It is always the same document, one in the black copy, dark

15 copy, and one in the light copy, with the translations attached. The

16 reason for my intervention, you will understand it, because a moment ago,

17 when you had these documents before you, I took the liberty of underlining

18 certain elements, just to draw the attention of the Chamber and to save

19 time. May I now be authorised to submit these two pieces and provide

20 copies for the Prosecution?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Mr. Usher, may I have your assistance, please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please assist

25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 5749

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, I have copies for

2 the Chamber as well. [In English] Bring the copies to the attention the

3 Chamber, of course. One is for the -- yes. One is for the Prosecution

4 and the attention of the Chamber. Yes.

5 [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know whether you have

6 these elements now.

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] I'm waiting for them.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So to the attention of the

9 Chamber and the Prosecution. We should have two sets of documents, in

10 fact, Mr. President. The first is the dark version, the black version,

11 with the translation behind it, following, which is the shortest, the

12 briefest of translations; and secondly, we have the better copy, followed

13 by the translation, which is the longer of the two translations. Now, if

14 we have all these documents, a copy of the original and a copy of the

15 translation, if we all have that, may I now continue? Do we have it? Do

16 all the parties have those documents now?

17 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that I got one set

18 stapled and the other one loose. Yes. I take it that --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, quite, but

20 we prepared the documents very properly for the usher and I see that the

21 usher has the documents in his hands. We did prepare it very correctly

22 and properly. Thank you. I see that Mr. Ierace is on his feet.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in fairness to the Defence, I should

24 withdraw something I said earlier. The question posed to me was when the

25 Prosecution first disclosed the dark copy which bore the signature of the

Page 5750

1 witness, and I then gave two dates. The first date was the 8th of June,

2 2000, and the second date was the 26th of November, 2001. The first date

3 I took -- both dates I took from the sheet which is in the possession of

4 the Trial Chamber and the Defence, that is, the sheet of potential

5 exhibits of witnesses, and in particular, the copy that was forwarded on

6 the 13th of March, 2002.

7 I note that the first date relates to a particular set of ERN

8 numbers which appears on both the versions of the dark copy, that is, the

9 version signed by the witness and the version unsigned by the witness.

10 The second ERN number, which relates to the date of the 26th of November,

11 2001, is the copy which has two ERN numbers on it and which contains a

12 signature. The version which has only one ERN number on it, which is the

13 first ERN number, does not have a signature. Therefore, on the basis of

14 that information, I can confidently say that the first date, the document

15 with the witness's signature, was disclosed was the 26th of November,

16 2001.

17 However, I add this: that the Defence has been served with a

18 statement by the witness which is dated the 13th of November, 1995. That

19 document is signed by the witness. The version signed by the witness

20 commences with ERN number 0036-1008. The statement ends with 0036-1010.

21 Your Honours will note that the second ERN number on the medical report

22 signed by the witness and dated the 13th of November is 0036-1011, in

23 other words, the next consecutive number. In other words, it was

24 processed by the evidence unit on the same occasion as the statement

25 signed on the 13th of November, 1995.

Page 5751

1 The relevance of all of that is it seems that the witness signed

2 this document at the same time that he signed his statement, and of course

3 that was the same day of the month and the same month, although the year

4 was not included alongside his signature on the photocopy of the letter of

5 discharge.

6 So while I withdraw that date of the 8th of June, 2000, I also

7 point out that the documentary evidence strongly, if not overwhelmingly,

8 suggests that he placed his signature on a letter of discharge on the 13th

9 of November, 1995. Given the witness's obvious poor state of

10 recollection, it is inappropriate to pursue that with the witness in

11 re-examination. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, after we heard the

13 explanation about the different versions of this document, please proceed

14 because you would like to draw our attention to other aspects --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I should

16 like to thank the Prosecution for all those technical and detailed pieces

17 of information but which have nothing to do with the problem in hand.

18 Having said that, I'm going to show you why now. Mr. President, you now

19 have two copies of the same document. We all agree on that score, never

20 mind the signature at the end of Witness Dzonko. We're not interested in

21 that for the moment.

22 But you have before you, Mr. President, two translations at the

23 back of the documents. One has an ERN number 0073-2936. Let me repeat.

24 73-2936, with other ERN numbers, but that was the most important ERN

25 number. We have three ERN numbers actually. And the other document is

Page 5752

1 the one that is Exhibit P2771.1.

2 Mr. President, I think we agree that this is one and the same

3 document in two versions, whether it be a black version and a white

4 version. But the square, the top square, that we can see, the top box

5 which is printed out, is the same in both versions. I think that is

6 clear. But when you compare the two translations, Mr. President, of one

7 and the same document, we come to one surprise after another. And that is

8 the reason why the Defence has asked for the production -- always asked

9 for the production of the original. Let me explain. The box that we have

10 in the document that is 73-2936 is the same as the one that appears in the

11 top part of the other document, P2771.1. Now, I underlined for your own

12 information, Mr. President, the differences that are unacceptable. I say

13 "unacceptable" for the following reasons: Because some things don't

14 exist quite simply. For example, the term "surgical" does not figure

15 anywhere in the other document. Maybe on the stamps but not on the

16 document proper. Then, there is additional information. But above all,

17 what I should like to draw the Chamber's attention to is the following:

18 If we take Document 73-2936 --

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Are you comparing these two documents?

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] At a distance, I think I am.

21 I'm speaking of the two translations actually, Judge. These two

22 translations, one translation and the other translation. I can't see that

23 far. I have to take up my glasses.

24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: [Interpretation] It says here 2936. I have a

25 document which is numbered 2936.

Page 5753

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, that's this

2 one here.

3 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: [Interpretation] And the other one is

4 P2771.1.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Judge. That is correct.

6 Now, as we have these two documents, let me draw your attention,

7 Mr. President, to the following: The bottom half of 2936, it has

8 indications which are not present either in the translation, 2771, or in

9 any of the two other documents -- copies of the document, whether it's the

10 black version or the white version.

11 Now, if we look at the last box, it says "result of treatment."

12 You have a box where it says "result of treatment" in the 2936 version.

13 You'll be able to see that there are eight points. Now, these eight

14 points correspond simply to the six points -- or rather six boxes or

15 squares which are at the bottom of the pre-printed form which begins

16 with -- which you'll be able to find, Mr. President, the last little box

17 on the left, and we see six, whereas in the translation there are eight

18 points. Points 5 and 7 apparently do not exist.

19 And even better than that, Mr. President, you will see that in the

20 translation that we received at the time, which was the 73-296 [sic] one,

21 there is a sentence at the bottom of that box, and I'm going to read it

22 out. It is as follows; this is what it says: [In English] "For medical

23 examinations, please report to the surgical department of this clinic,

24 Brasova Street, Sarajevo."

25 And you'll be able to see that that line, Mr. President, does not

Page 5754












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5755

1 appear in any of the two documents, whether they are the dark version or

2 the light version, which were given to us by the Prosecution, whether they

3 were given directly to the witness in Sarajevo or the clear copy that we

4 had.

5 Now, in other words, when we note that the translation that I have

6 furnished with these three ERN numbers incorporate elements of the

7 pre-printed text which do not exist in any of the other texts and copies of

8 the original given -- provided by the Prosecution, this can only signify

9 one thing, and that is that other documents were handed up for

10 translation, documents which incorporated elements and information which

11 was supplementary and cannot be found either in the dark version or the

12 light version, Mr. President. I think that that is the only conclusion

13 that one can arrive at reasonably and logically to which I draw your

14 attention. And it is absolutely imperative for the Prosecution to provide

15 the originals so that we can know which and what they are, and so that the

16 Chamber itself and the Defence, of course, does not have to work with

17 translations which are translations done on the basis of

18 other -- apparently other elements, other than the ones that were

19 disclosed to the Chamber in the course of the trial and the proceedings.

20 I apologise for having to bring up these elements and for having

21 to underline them in a coloured ink. But I did so because we're working

22 with the Serbian language and the English language, and I did so so that

23 the Chamber can see the realities that we are facing in terms of

24 translation but also because we do not have the production of original

25 documents. The last number is 936, those are the principal digits, and

Page 5756

1 that particular document includes elements which do not exist in any of

2 the versions, either the dark version or the light version, the poorer

3 version or the better version, of the letter of discharge which was

4 provided by the Prosecution.

5 So that is a problem. And I would like to hear on the spot from

6 Mr. Ierace. Perhaps he can give us a direct answer on the spot; or if

7 not, in due course. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you please respond.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it seems that there are two principal

10 aspects to the document that my friend has highlighted in support of his

11 theory that the translation -- the translator had documents other than the

12 originals produced by the Prosecution in order to come up with the

13 translations. The first of those, as I understand it, is an observation

14 by my friend that the one translation contains the word "surgical" in the

15 context of surgical department. And to quote his words: "The term

16 `surgical' does not figure anywhere in the other document." That's page

17 28, line 3.

18 I draw my learned colleague's attention to, firstly, the

19 appearance of the word "surgical" at the top right-hand corner of ERN

20 number, last numbers 8842; and on the other translation, which is last

21 four numbers ERN 2936, at the middle of the box on the second line. Both

22 documents, in fact, have the title "Surgical Department."

23 The second concern he refers to is this: That on the document

24 with the last ERN numbers 2936, we see under the heading "result of

25 treatment," eight possibilities. When one looks at the original that

Page 5757

1 accompanies it, one simply doesn't see at the relevant point the same

2 layout or, in relation to some boxes, that one can discern of the relevant

3 point. One can only see five discrete boxes, perhaps a sixth. The

4 translation which accompanies the clearer version, that is last four ERN

5 numbers 8842, indeed shows six boxes, as can be seen on the clearer

6 photocopy, that is, last ERN numbers 8842. It is crystal clear. And

7 therefore, there is no apparent discrepancy between the clearer original,

8 8842, and the rough translation of the same ERN number marked

9 Exhibit P2771.1.

10 Mr. President, there is, in my submission, firstly overwhelming

11 evidence available without the assistance of an expert that when one

12 compares the poorer and better copies of the medical discharge summary,

13 that they are one and the same document. And I have not heard my friend

14 at any stage suggest otherwise. That does not seem to be in dispute.

15 That being the case, we now have the benefit of the more legible copy,

16 that is, 8842. And it follows that we have a reliable translation for

17 that part of the original document which is legible. I do not understand

18 my friend to have at any stage suggested that the rough translation of

19 8842 in any way is inaccurate of the legible parts of the original. So

20 that is not in dispute. That being the case, it seems to me that the way

21 is clear for the document to be tendered, of course, on the understanding

22 that much of the original remains illegible. That which is illegible has

23 not been translated.

24 What, then, is the probative value of the document? It is this:

25 I refer now to the clearly legible portions. It is evidence that on the

Page 5758

1 17th of July, 1994, Rasid Dzonko, who was born in 1926, was admitted to

2 the University Medical Centre of Sarajevo -- there has been other evidence

3 that that is Kosevo Hospital -- where he received treatment and was

4 discharged 12 days later on the 29th of July, 1994. In other words, it is

5 evidence which is consistent, and therefore, corroborative, of the

6 evidence of Rasid Dzonko from whom we have just heard.

7 Beyond that, there is some decipherable reference to the nature of

8 the injuries for which he received treatment. My friend makes much of the

9 fact that the treating doctor, or at least the doctor who completed the

10 report and signed it, is a gynecologist. In any context other than a city

11 in a three-year siege, that would seem surprising. But it is not in the

12 context of Sarajevo in 1994.

13 Mr. President, as I indicated yesterday, should the Trial Chamber

14 rule that the diagnosis part of the letter of discharge is insufficiently

15 legible for it to be tendered, then I am content for the material which

16 appears in the box, that is, the top half of the document, be tendered and

17 the bottom half to be not tendered. In any event, even if the whole

18 document was rejected, the Trial Chamber still has the direct evidence of

19 the surviving victim himself as to his name, his age, when he was admitted

20 to hospital, when he was discharged, and the reason, especially, why he

21 received treatment. I would not want those last few comments to be

22 interpreted as any lack of confidence on my part as to the appropriateness

23 of the tender, especially of the top half of the document. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you'd like to add something and

25 you could do it briefly, then you could proceed, otherwise we would have a

Page 5759

1 break.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I shall be happy, then,

3 to do that after the break, with your leave.

4 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you think you would need?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can tell you immediately it

6 will take 15 seconds, 15 seconds, not more than that, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. May

9 I note only this, Mr. President, Your Honours, that we should know why

10 this last line and these last two figures, 5 and 7, were translated when

11 they do not exist in the exhibit, and this question has remained

12 unanswered. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you one question, Mr. Ierace: Do you

14 intend to offer any evidence in respect of the authenticity of the

15 document, as we discussed before, under 92 bis? We've seen a lot of

16 documents available, and of course we do not know what finally you'll

17 tender. Would this be one of the documents which was included or would

18 you have to check that during the break?

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if you mean by that: Is the more

20 legible version coming in through one of the 92 bis witnesses as well --


22 MR. IERACE: -- I will check that during the break.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, badly legible or well legible, black box

24 or -- well, whatever copy, but I'd like to know whether this is your

25 intention.

Page 5760

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can tell you that I have here at the

2 bar table, should you wish to see it, the originals of both documents, and

3 I'm happy for them to be handed up. When I use the word "original," I

4 mean simply the most original copy which the OTP has ever possessed, that

5 is, the letter of discharge which has a black patch and which has been

6 signed by the witness. So this is the original signing by the witness.


8 MR. IERACE: I also have the more legible version, that is, the

9 one which was received by the Office of the Prosecutor. Of course,

10 one -- the copy signed -- it seems that the witness signed a photocopy,

11 although of course his signature is original, and the more legible version

12 is clearly not the original document and it appears to be an old

13 photocopy. I hand both of those up. Perhaps they can be shown to my

14 friend.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. Then it's time for a break, which gives

16 us the opportunity as well to consider the matter of this document. So

17 we'll not deal with any document at this very moment. We'll do that after

18 the break. Apart from that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are talking about an

19 agreement --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. We agreed

21 to discuss this matter before the Chamber at a given time, and that is

22 now, during these proceedings. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we'll then adjourn until 10 minutes past

24 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

Page 5761

1 --- On resuming at 11.14 a.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Before resuming the examination of witnesses, I'd

3 like to inform the parties about the admission into evidence of the

4 documents. Let's perhaps first take the easy part, the photographs.

5 That's document P3279T, as far as I can see, a set of six photographs.

6 Since I didn't hear any objections, they're admitted in evidence.

7 Then we come to the medical report, discharge form of a patient in

8 the clinical university centre of Sarajevo. I gave a provisional decision

9 earlier. The document as it is now, whether it's the badly legible copy

10 or the copy tendered P2771, cannot be admitted at this moment in

11 evidence.

12 If the Prosecution would assist in seeking admission of this

13 document in evidence, it would be minimally required that there is a

14 translation to that document, at least of the legible parts of the

15 document, that can create no confusion in whatever way; that means the

16 type of boxes or the entries in the boxes. So therefore the translations,

17 the two different translations of what seems to be one document, are not

18 acceptable.

19 A further requirement would be that this document, as the Chamber

20 is allowed to ask for and which has been asked for by the Defence as well,

21 that an authentication of this document will be presented to the Chamber.

22 Although there has been no objection to the effect that the Defence has

23 argued that the two copies of the document would not be copies of the same

24 document under the present circumstances and with the confusion the

25 translations have created, the Chamber thinks that it would be necessary

Page 5762

1 to at least have evidence that these copies are in conformity with the

2 originals in Sarajevo or that the originals be produced.

3 Finally, if these requirements would be met, that could only

4 result in an admission into evidence of the upper part of the document,

5 and then only those boxes in which the entries are well legible. The

6 format as it is, the pre-printed parts, all seem to be sufficiently

7 legible. And just to give you an indication, the name of the patient, the

8 year of birth, the number on the form, the date of admission, the date of

9 discharge, and the surgery performed, these entries seem to be fairly

10 legible. And it would only be to that extent that the Chamber, if the

11 other requirements would be met, is willing to admit this document in

12 evidence.

13 Then I think, if no one's on his feet, we could resume the

14 examination of the next witness, Mr. Ierace.

15 It was not an invitation, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, but if you're on your

16 feet.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I simply wanted

18 to stand up to thank the Chamber for the decision it took.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Ierace, would you please call the

20 next witness. That would be, as far as I can see on my list,

21 Mr. Kapetanovic. Is that correct?

22 MR. IERACE: That is the correct name, Mr. President. But before

23 we leave the matter of the previous witness, Rasid Dzonko, I seek to

24 tender the video that was played to the witness. That is P3279TT. And

25 might the documents which were obtained from the evidence vault now be

Page 5763

1 returned so that they can be conveyed back to the evidence vault. Thank

2 you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we'll -- wouldn't it be the wisest that

4 we return all the documents we have just reviewed for preparing our

5 decision with marks, even my marks, on it? That will be then returned.

6 Yes, Madam Registrar, I forgotten about the video. And that shows

7 again that I'd rather leave it in your hands than to do it myself. The

8 video was Number P3279TT, and is admitted into evidence.

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I'd like

11 to seize this opportunity, because you know the position of the Defence

12 with reference to exhibits. I'm talking about 2171, which is a page like

13 this. There is a part of it which is masked mechanically which we

14 received on Friday, and we're very happy to receive it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And there are no objections in having --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I believe that that is

17 what I said. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The translation partly blackened is also admitted

19 into evidence, and that is 2171.

20 Yes, then, Mr. Ierace, you may call the next witness. Perhaps we

21 could ask the representatives of the Registry in Sarajevo to lead the

22 witness into the videoroom.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kapetanovic, can you hear me in a language you

25 understand?

Page 5764

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I hear you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome. I cannot say "in the courtroom," but at

3 least in the videoroom linked to this courtroom. Before giving your

4 testimony, Mr. Kapetanovic, the Rules require you to make a solemn

5 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

6 the truth. The text of this declaration is handed out to you now by the

7 representative of the Registry. May I invite you to make that

8 declaration.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Kapetanovic. Please be

12 seated.

13 Mr. Kapetanovic, you'll first be examined by counsel for the

14 Prosecution; subsequently, you'll be examined by counsel for the Defence;

15 and if there are any additional questions from the Judges, they will be

16 put to you as well.

17 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 [Witness testified through videolink]

21 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

22 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, would you please spell your surname.

23 A. K-A-P-E-T-A-N-O-V-I-C.

24 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, what is your birthdate?

25 A. 19th February, 1931.

Page 5765

1 Q. In 1994, were you living in Sarajevo?

2 A. Yes, yes, I was.

3 Q. Were you living -- withdraw that. Whereabouts were you living in

4 Sarajevo in 1994?

5 A. Alipasino Polje.

6 Q. Were you living with, amongst other people -- withdraw that. In

7 the same apartment block, was there a man by the name of Ivan Franjic?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. At that time, did you also know a person by the name of Augustin

10 Vucic?

11 A. I did.

12 Q. Was there an occasion where you witnessed both those men being

13 injured?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 Q. What was the date when that happened?

16 A. I wouldn't be able to do it exactly.

17 Q. First of all, do you remember the year when that happened?

18 A. 1993. I think -- I think that was it.

19 Q. Do you remember the month?

20 A. I'm not sure, but I believe it was April.

21 Q. What were you doing when those two men were injured?

22 A. We were walking along Ante Babica Street.

23 Q. Was it daytime or night-time?

24 A. Daytime.

25 Q. Approximately what time of day was it when they were injured?

Page 5766

1 A. About 10.00.

2 Q. You said you were walking in Ante Babica Street. In which

3 direction were you walking in that street?

4 A. We were walking in the direction of Dobrinja.

5 Q. Were you -- were the three of you walking in a line or not? In

6 other words, were you walking side by side or not?

7 A. In a line, one next to the other.

8 Q. At the time that they were injured, who was in the middle of the

9 three of you?

10 A. Augustin Vucic was in the middle.

11 Q. Who was on his left?

12 A. I was on his left.

13 Q. I take it, therefore, that Ivan Franjic was on his right. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Was there any particular reason as to why the three of you were

17 walking at that place at about 10.00 in the morning on that day?

18 A. No particular reason.

19 Q. Had you walked along that part of that street before that day

20 during the war?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What happened on this occasion as the three of you walked along

23 that street?

24 A. While we were moving along the street, what happened was that a

25 sniper bullet came and hit two people, Ivan and Vucic, and I wasn't

Page 5767

1 wounded myself.

2 Q. Did you hear the sound of any shots being fired at about the time

3 that Ivan and Augustin were wounded?

4 A. No, we didn't hear the sound.

5 Q. Did the bullet touch any part of you or your clothing?

6 A. Yes, it did.

7 Q. Which part?

8 A. What did you say?

9 Q. Which part did it touch?

10 A. From the left-hand side.

11 Q. I think you said that the bullet touched part of either you or

12 your clothing. Which part of you or your clothing did the bullet make

13 contact with?

14 A. The belt on my trousers.

15 Q. Whereabouts was Ivan Franjic injured?

16 A. Through the stomach.

17 Q. Whereabouts was Augustin Vucic wounded?

18 A. He was wounded in the kidney, I think. The kidney, yes. His

19 kidney was destroyed.

20 Q. Approximately how old was Ivan Franjic?

21 A. Sixty-five or sixty-seven, thereabouts.

22 Q. Approximately how old was Augustin Vucic?

23 A. About 60 years old.

24 Q. You said that Augustin Vucic was wounded in the kidney. Did you

25 see which side of his body was wounded?

Page 5768

1 A. The left-hand side.

2 Q. You said that Ivan Franjic was wounded through the stomach. Was

3 that towards the middle of the stomach or to one side?

4 A. The middle, above his belly button.

5 Q. Are you able to say how many shots were fired, given that you did

6 not hear the sound of the shots or shot?

7 A. Assuming -- I assume that there was just one bullet, assuming that

8 it was a sniper.

9 Q. Again, given that you did not hear the sound, are you able to say

10 from which direction the shot or shots were fired?

11 A. From the right-hand side --

12 Q. Why do you say --

13 A. -- in the direction in which we were moving.

14 Q. On what basis did you form your opinion?

15 A. On the basis of our movement towards Dobrinja, and that's why I

16 considered that the bullet had come from our right, from the right-hand

17 side.

18 Q. What happened after the shooting? What did you do?

19 A. After the shooting I tried to save Franjic. I tried to get a car,

20 to stop a car that came along first to transport him to the first aid

21 station. He was taken to Dobrinja, actually.

22 Q. Did anyone offer any assistance apart from --

23 A. A woman came up to us, and a man who gave us some bandages which I

24 tied round his stomach to stop his intestines from coming out. So I was

25 able to tighten this bandage around his stomach.

Page 5769

1 Q. You told us that Ivan was taken off to Dobrinja in a car. What

2 happened to Augustin?

3 A. When I sent off Ivan to Dobrinja, I tried to help Augustin. And

4 the first car that turned up I stopped to take him to Kosevo Hospital.

5 Q. Did Augustin survive the wound?

6 A. No, he didn't.

7 Q. Did Ivan survive the wound, his wound?

8 A. Yes, he did.

9 Q. What clothes were you wearing that day, at the time that the

10 shooting occurred?

11 A. An ordinary jacket. We were all wearing ordinary jackets.

12 Windjammers [as interpreted].

13 Q. What type of pants were the three of you wearing?

14 A. Ordinary trousers, the kind we had. Ordinary ones.

15 Q. What was your occupation at that time?

16 A. I was a pensioner, and so was Ivan. He was retired, too.

17 Augustin was just about to become a pensioner as well.

18 Q. When you say that Augustin was just about to become a pensioner,

19 do you know what his occupation was at that time?

20 A. I think -- unofficially, but I think he was a metal worker, as far

21 as I know.

22 Q. At the time that Ivan and Augustin were shot, was there anyone

23 nearby you?

24 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

25 Q. At the time of the shooting, was there anyone nearby the group of

Page 5770

1 you?

2 A. No, nobody. Just the three of us.

3 Q. Did you see any military people in the vicinity at all at that

4 time?

5 A. No.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown -- first I

7 ask a map be placed on the ELMO here. That is P3202. And perhaps whilst

8 that is being done, Ms. Philpott could show the same exhibit to the

9 witness in Sarajevo.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, could you please confirm that you have

11 P3202, and that you put it on the ELMO in Sarajevo.

12 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, Your Honour. I have that

13 exhibit, and it is now on the ELMO.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My eyesight isn't very good, and I

16 can't find my way around this.


18 Q. I understand that, Mr. Kapetanovic. Do you have --

19 A. May I have a photograph?

20 Q. In a moment I think you will be handed a map which has a red mark

21 on it.

22 A. I see that, yes.

23 Q. Do you see your signature anywhere on that document? I direct

24 your attention to the bottom of the document.

25 A. Yes, I see it.

Page 5771

1 Q. Do you also see a date on the document, that is, 6 May 2001?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you sign that document on that date?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. On the same date, did you indicate where you, Mr. Franjic, and

6 Mr. Vucic were when the shooting occurred?

7 A. Could you repeat that question, please.

8 Q. Did you place a cross on the map with a red pen to indicate your

9 approximate position at the time of the shooting?

10 A. Correct. Yes, I did, but it should be moved a little to the left,

11 because Sinjevo is marked on the road, and the pavement is where we were

12 actually walking down, not in the middle of the road. We were walking

13 down the pavement, so it should be moved a little to the left if you look

14 towards Dobrinja, in the direction of Dobrinja. A little to the left.

15 Q. Do you have a pointer that you can use to point to the map?

16 Thank you.

17 A. Do you want me to show you? What I mean is, you should move this

18 to the left-hand side, to the pavement. It should be moved about 2 metres

19 to the left. That would be the exact point.

20 Q. First of all, I think you said that at the time of the shooting,

21 you and the other two gentlemen were walking on Ante Babica Street. Is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Please point to Ante Babica Street.

25 A. Here it is here.

Page 5772

1 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the map could be adjusted on the ELMO.

2 Q. Could you please point again to Ante Babica Street.

3 A. Here it is.

4 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates the area of the cross.

5 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, could you please point to the area of Dobrinja.

6 MR. IERACE: And could the ELMO please be zoomed back so that we

7 can see more of the map.

8 A. Perhaps it would be a better -- perhaps it would be better if

9 there was a photograph. Then I would be able to make my way round it

10 better, because this is a large area. It's difficult for me to find my

11 way on this map.

12 MR. IERACE: All right. In that case, Mr. Kapetanovic, I will not

13 ask you any more questions about the map.

14 Mr. President, I ask that we now see a video, being Prosecution

15 Exhibit 3280U.

16 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, please --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps before

19 doing that, could we indicate for the transcript what I think I saw. That

20 is to say that when the witness was asked where Ante Babica Street was, he

21 made a gesture with his hand going to the right of the cross marked in

22 red, and he showed this direction; he indicated this direction with this

23 gesture of his hand.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: I would agree with that, Mr. President.

Page 5773

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's then in the transcript.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps Ms. Philpott could confirm,

3 when the video starts playing, that it is visible to the witness in

4 Sarajevo.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do so, Ms. Philpott.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] I'll do that, Your Honour.


8 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, please look at the computer screen in front of

9 you, and shortly you should see a video. Please watch the video and

10 listen carefully.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The video is beginning.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Unfortunately, we --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

14 [Videotape played]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask the technical booth not only to

16 provide Sarajevo with the image but also The Hague.

17 Mr. Kapetanovic, you were able to see a video, we were not, so

18 we'll try restart the video that we all can see it.

19 May I ask the technical booth whether this is a serious problem or

20 that we could expect to have the image on our screens soon?

21 Mr. Kapetanovic, you still have -- you need some patience, as we

22 have to have some patience as well.

23 Could I be informed about what the problem is?

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm informed that it might take another minute to

Page 5774

1 solve the problem. What would you prefer to do, Mr. Ierace?

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I can ask a few more

3 questions.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the technical booth would just inform the

5 registrar as soon as the problem seems to be solved.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


8 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, what ethnic community did you belong to or do you

9 belong to?

10 A. A Catholic, a Croat.

11 Q. What about Mr. Franjic? What was his ethnic grouping, if I could

12 put it that way?

13 A. The same as me.

14 Q. What about Mr. --

15 A. And Vucic too.

16 Q. Thank you. You've told us that you believe that the shooting came

17 from your right. Whereabouts was the confrontation line on that day in

18 relation to where you were shot? How far away was it?

19 A. Two hundred metres.

20 Q. From where you were shot, was it possible to see any buildings on

21 the other side of the confrontation line?

22 A. There was the students' hostel and two private houses which were

23 destroyed.

24 Q. Which side of the confrontation line was the student hostel on, or

25 was it in the middle?

Page 5775

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I would

3 like to make the following observation: The question posed by Mr. Ierace

4 began as follows: [In English] "From where you were shot ..."

5 [Interpretation] It doesn't seem to me to be possible to determine what

6 Mr. Ierace -- what precise point Mr. Ierace was making starting out with

7 that phrase, that is to say, the point where he was shot or the point from

8 which he was targeted, he was shot at. This would make a difference with

9 respect to the side of the line, and I don't think it is precise enough.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are objecting and

11 commenting to the question at the same time. Would you please limit

12 yourself next time in making the objection, saying that the point

13 Mr. Ierace points at is not clear. That would be enough, without further

14 explanation, until we ask for that.

15 Mr. Ierace, could you please rephrase your question in such a way

16 that whatever confusion would be there is avoided.

17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

18 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, you've told us that the bullet hit the three of

19 you, bullet or bullets hit the three of you, although in your case it hit

20 your clothing, not your body. Is that correct?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. Which forces controlled the area where you and your friends were

23 when you were shot?

24 A. That was the area which was not under occupation. It was not

25 occupied.

Page 5776

1 Q. Do you mean by that the forces of the Bosnian government?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Which force or forces, as you understood it, controlled the other

4 side of the confrontation line closest to where you were shot?

5 A. The Serb forces held it, the front. That's where the front was.

6 Q. You said that you formed the opinion that the shot came from your

7 right, and you were walking towards Dobrinja at the time that the three of

8 you were shot. What area was on your right that you could see from that

9 position?

10 A. It was the home for the blind that is, we assume, the bullet or

11 bullets came from, and we didn't hear the sound.

12 Q. Which force or forces controlled the area where the home for the

13 blind was on that date?

14 A. Serb forces.

15 Q. Why do you assume that the bullet or bullets were fired from the

16 home for the blind?

17 A. On the basis of the shot, the way that the two of them were shot,

18 Ivan and Vucic, because they were on the right-hand side. We thought that

19 the bullet or bullets came from our right, from the direction of the blind

20 children's home.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I was informed that the technical problem

22 has been solved.

23 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. So I understand you to be saying that the position of the entry

25 wounds on Ivan and Augustin led you to the conclusion that the bullet came

Page 5777

1 from your right as you faced Dobrinja. Is that correct?

2 A. Precisely.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps at this stage we could see the

4 video.

5 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, we will try again to show the video so we can see

6 it here and in Sarajevo as well. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, could you confirm that it --

8 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] We are able to see the video.


10 [Videotape played]

11 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Could you please point, to the best of

12 your recollection, in the direction from which you and your friends were

13 walking on the day that the shooting took place.

14 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates].

15 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Could you please point in the

16 direction that you were walking, to the best of your recollection, on that

17 day.

18 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates].

19 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Can you please stand in the spot

20 where, to the best of your recollection, you were located when the

21 shooting occurred.

22 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates].

23 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: I will now mark that spot with yellow

24 spray paint in the figure X on the sidewalk.

25 "Can you please indicate with your hand where your friends Ivan

Page 5778

1 and Augustin were located in relation to you when the shooting occurred,

2 to the best of your recollection.

3 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]."


5 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, did you recognise yourself in the video that you

6 just saw?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. Did you carry out the directions of the investigator truthfully to

9 the best of your recollection on the video?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, in a moment you will see a photograph on your

12 screen. Would you please tell us when you can see the photograph.

13 Can you see it now?

14 A. [No Interpretation]

15 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the witness's answer could be translated.

16 THE INTERPRETER: We did not hear any answer.


18 Q. Could you please repeat that response, Mr. Kapetanovic.

19 A. What I see before me, the President of the Court or of the

20 Chamber. That is what I see.

21 MR. IERACE: Perhaps Ms. Philpott could assist.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Philpott, could you please assist in--

23 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- putting a photograph.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] We cannot see anything other than

Page 5779

1 Mr. Ierace, and now yourself.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. What photo are we supposed to see?

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it is P3279U, and the image is an

4 intersection with traffic lights.


6 MR. IERACE: Perhaps we need the assistance of the technical booth

7 to send the signal through from my case manager's computer.

8 JUDGE ORIE: It's on your computer. It's your case manager's

9 computer.

10 MR. IERACE: Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I would expect it, then, on the computer evidence,

12 but that gives a totally different picture.

13 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you. I

15 merely wanted to seize the opportunity of this technical glitch to say

16 that the investigator is asking the witness in the video "Where were your

17 friends?" Could Mr. Ierace tell us where in the testimony the witness

18 said that these two people were his friends.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I don't think it's necessary to

20 have this clarified.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


23 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, can you now see a photograph of an intersection

24 on the screen in front of you.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Mr. Ierace, are you playing the

Page 5780

1 Quicktime movie?

2 MR. IERACE: Yes, it should be on the "Computer Evidence" button,

3 if you have such a button.

4 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] We do not.

5 MR. IERACE: It is the same type of material which was shown to

6 the first videolink witness, if that assists in locating the appropriate

7 button.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] We do now see an image, however it's

9 not clear.

10 MR. IERACE: All right.

11 Mr. President, perhaps I could ask some more questions whilst the

12 technical booth can try and improve the problem. A shrug of the shoulders

13 through the glass suggests that nothing more can be done.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know what is the reason for the

15 unclarity reported to us by Sarajevo, but if the technicians could please

16 see what's the best way of doing it. I see that there's a -- there's a

17 new CD-rom here, so it could be played perhaps from the technical booth.

18 No, it's usually played from the Prosecution computer.

19 Could the technical booth please try to find out what causes the

20 unclarity. And may I ask again to Ms. Philpott, is it still unclear?

21 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, Your Honour.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, could I suggest that we give the

23 technical operator our copy of the CD, and he could experiment within the

24 technical booth perhaps whilst I ask some more questions and show some

25 photographs through the ELMO.

Page 5781

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's proceed in that way. I don't know how it

2 was done last time when we had the 360-degrees photograph.

3 MR. IERACE: That was done from the bar table operated by the case

4 manager, and it apparently worked with the first videolink witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed, and let's see whether the

6 technicians could solve the problem.


8 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, before you saw the video, I was asking you some

9 questions about your opinion that the bullet or bullets came from your

10 right, and you explained that your reasoning was based partly on the

11 places that you and your friends were shot. Earlier, you said that

12 Augustin Vucic was wounded on his left-hand side. Which way was he facing

13 at the time that he was shot?

14 A. In the direction in which we were moving, towards Dobrinja.

15 Q. Were you able to -- perhaps you could tell us in more detail which

16 part of his body bore a wound.

17 A. Vucic, you mean?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. The left side of his body, where his heart and his kidneys are.

20 Q. If the bullet came from the right, how was it that the left-hand

21 side of his body was injured or wounded?

22 A. In relation to -- he was slightly shorter than Franjic, and

23 therefore it got him in the stomach, above the belly button, and he was

24 hit in his left side. Now, of course, I do not know whether it was one or

25 two bullets. I can't really say that. But that is the gist of what I am

Page 5782

1 trying to say.

2 Q. I take it from that last answer that the entry point appeared to

3 you to be in the stomach, above the belly button. Is that what you say?

4 A. Precisely. Quite so.

5 Q. Do you also mean that the wound extended from that point to the

6 left side?

7 A. Well, that's what I think, at least.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that Exhibit P3279OA be placed

10 on the ELMO and a copy of that photograph be shown to the witness in

11 Sarajevo. This is a photograph that was tendered into evidence through

12 Fuad Dziho.

13 Mr. President, I'm not able to see the photograph on the video

14 evidence button at the moment. I wonder if that's because the technical

15 booth is experimenting with that channel.

16 JUDGE ORIE: It might be. I see the photograph on video, and

17 that's, I would say, the Sarajevo copy.

18 MR. IERACE: That will do.


20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you,

22 Mr. President. I heard from the French booth that they did not hear the

23 last name, so could it be please repeated so that we could also hear it.

24 JUDGE ORIE: What last name are you referring to,

25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? The witness with whom the photograph was tendered?

Page 5783

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. The name of the witness

2 for whom this photograph -- to whom this photograph was shown.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness Dziho, which is written D-Z-I-H-O.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


6 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, I think you have in front of you a photograph

7 which shows a view from above of some buildings and some streets. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. It is.

10 Q. Do you recognise what appears in the photograph?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. Could you please tell us what it is?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It seems that we are not

15 getting the photograph on our screen. We are trying, but -- oh, yes. Oh,

16 yes, now we have it. Yes, we do.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


19 Q. Could you please tell us what it is that appears in the photograph

20 that you recognise. Mr. Kapetanovic, I'll ask you that question again.

21 Would you please tell us what you recognise in the photograph.

22 A. I see two buildings near the students' hostel from which we

23 believe the bullet came which hit us.

24 Q. First of all, would you please point with your pen to the student

25 hostel.

Page 5784












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5785

1 A. The student hostel is here.

2 MR. IERACE: For the transcript, the witness points to the

3 high-rise building at the top centre of the photograph.

4 Q. Would you please point to the buildings that you described as "the

5 two buildings near the students' hostel from which we believe the bullet

6 came which hit us."

7 A. [Indicates]

8 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates two buildings in the centre of

9 the photograph, that is, in front of the high-rise building, the first

10 being a white building with some red writing on it.

11 Q. Would you please point to the second building again,

12 Mr. Kapetanovic.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 MR. IERACE: And the second building being behind and to the left

15 of the white building with the red writing.

16 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you see that in front of the white building

17 with the red writing there is a building of light-brown brick with a white

18 band and a red roof? If so, could you please point to that building.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. IERACE: The witness points to a building so described in the

22 dead centre of the photograph.

23 Now, I ask that Ms. Philpott place on the ELMO in Sarajevo

24 photograph Exhibit P3265.

25 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, we're now going to change the photographs, but

Page 5786

1 the photograph that you're presently pointing to, could you leave that on

2 the desk in front of you so that you can compare two photographs.

3 Mr. Kapetanovic, do you recognise the photograph that's in front of you

4 now?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. Did you place the black marks on that photograph?

7 A. I'm pointing at it now.

8 Q. Did you put those black marks on that photograph?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Indeed, does your signature appear on the photograph in the area

11 of the sky?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did you mean to indicate by the black marks on the buildings

14 to which you are now pointing?

15 MR. IERACE: For the transcript, that is the light-red roof area.

16 A. I marked it because we thought that it was between the student

17 hostel and this building, and these buildings is where the bullet was

18 fired from, the direction from which we believe we were hit.

19 Q. All right. Now, you've marked the roof area of those two

20 buildings, that is, the white building with the red writing and

21 the -- withdraw that.

22 You've marked a light red roof area in the photograph. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. Please compare that photograph to the one that you looked at

Page 5787

1 previously, which, for the transcript, is P3279OA. I want you in

2 particular to compare firstly a building painted white with the red

3 lettering. Do you see that on both photographs?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. Do you also see on both photographs a building which is

6 constructed of light brown bricks with a whitish band towards the top of

7 the wall, and above it a red roof? Do you see that building on both

8 photographs?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I now direct your attention to the photograph on which you placed

11 some black lines on the roofs. Are you looking at that photograph?

12 A. I can't really see it.

13 Q. All right. Do you see the photograph on which you placed your

14 signature with a black pen?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. At the time that you placed your signature on that photograph, did

17 you also put some lines on the roofs of the two buildings with a black

18 pen?

19 A. I didn't draw it unless -- I mean, I was pointing at it, what was

20 destroyed, which houses were destroyed.

21 Q. All right. At the time that you and the other two men were shot,

22 did those two buildings exist?

23 A. One was standing. The other one was already destroyed.

24 Q. Which one was standing, the white one or the light brown one?

25 A. The white one, and this light brown was destroyed. I mean its

Page 5788

1 roof was gone.

2 Q. Did the white one have its roof on the day that you and the other

3 two men were shot?

4 A. No, it didn't. It didn't, no.

5 Q. Now, did you sign this photograph in September of last year?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. President. For

8 the transcript, I do not know if that is the same thing. But personally,

9 I see two buildings which are white and which have red lettering on them,

10 and which both have roofs. One is in the centre of the photograph, and

11 the other one I would say is right behind it. So for the sake of clarity,

12 could we make it more precise for the transcript. The witness said two

13 buildings, but I see here two buildings which are both white.

14 MR. IERACE: Both white, Mr. President, but not both with red

15 roofs. I'm happy to clarify it if my friend is unclear.

16 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic --

17 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear to the Chamber, Mr. Ierace.

18 MR. IERACE: All right. Thank you.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Kapetanovic, did you sign this photograph at around the

20 same time that you participated in the video that we saw a short time ago?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. And was that in approximately September of last year?

23 A. Well, I cannot say that officially, but that is my guess. I

24 cannot really officially confirm it, whether it was September, the end of

25 it or early September. I don't really know. But I signed it,

Page 5789

1 because -- and I did the statement which I gave about the incident. And

2 on the basis of that, I signed it.

3 Q. All right. So we now understand that the significance of the

4 lines on the red roofs is that those red roofs were not there on the day

5 that you and your the other two men were shot. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, indeed.

7 Q. So therefore --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the French transcript, it

10 is not red lines; it is the red roof.


12 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, therefore, on that day, if one were standing in

13 the position of the camera that took this photograph, it was possible to

14 see beyond those red roofs. Is that correct?

15 A. Behind the red roofs was the students' hostel.

16 Q. And to the left of the students' hostel, one could see whatever

17 was behind there. Is that correct?

18 A. Assuming that you could see, because the students' hostel was on

19 the right-hand side as you moved towards the blind people's home, and on

20 the left-hand side were the residential blocks, several storeys high. And

21 here you could see to the blind people's home.

22 Q. All right. Now, I want to ask you some questions about --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, before you touch a new area, I think it

24 would be time to have a break, if this would be a suitable moment. Yes.

25 Mr. Kapetanovic, we are going to have a break for 20 minutes. So

Page 5790

1 we hope to see you on the screen again after 20 minutes.

2 We'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 1.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, could you please escort the witness

6 back in the videoroom.

7 And as far as I understand, Mr. Ierace, all the technical problems

8 have been resolved. Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I perhaps first ask Ms. Philpott to confirm the

11 quality of the computer evidence picture. Ms. Philpott, could you confirm

12 that it's well visible?

13 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, much better.


15 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


17 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, shortly -- first of all, do you have in front of

18 you a photograph?

19 A. Do I have what? Yes, I do.

20 Q. Please assume from me that this photograph is taken from the

21 position that you indicated on the video as the position you were in --

22 A. Yes, that's right. Yes.

23 Q. -- when the three of you were shot. All right. We will now move

24 the photograph to the left. Do you recognise now towards the middle of

25 the image the building you identified earlier as the student hostel?

Page 5791

1 A. I recognise it.

2 Q. Now, having regard to your earlier evidence, were the two

3 buildings which you have identified as being in front of the student

4 hostel behind the traffic which appears in the photograph?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are we now looking up Ante Babica Street in the direction of

7 Dobrinja, having regard to your earlier evidence?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In other words, we now see the direction in which you and the

10 other two men were walking at the time that the three of you were shot?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. We can still see on this image part of the student hostel, that

13 is, on the right-hand side of the screen, above the yellow truck; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. On the day you were shot, was the student hostel in the same

17 condition in which it appears in this photograph?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Perhaps I should explain. By "condition," I mean was it in any

20 way damaged in 1994, at the time you were shot?

21 A. Well, it was damaged on the inside; that is to say, it was all

22 destroyed inside. But as far as the building is concerned, it remained

23 standing, the same, status quo.

24 Q. Was it possible to see through any part of the building in 1994?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5792

1 Q. Through what parts of the building could you see in 1994?

2 A. You could see through the windows, towards the front. You could

3 see through the building.

4 Q. Did the building have any glass in its windows in 1994?

5 A. No, it didn't. No, it wasn't repaired. It was only later on that

6 the repairs began, after 1994, 1995, 1996.

7 Q. We'll now continue to move the photograph to the left. We now see

8 a building in reddish-brown brick on the left of the photograph. Was that

9 building there on the day that you were shot?

10 A. Yes, it was.

11 Q. We continue to move the photograph to the left and we stop where

12 we started. Thank you for looking at that, Mr. Kapetanovic. I'd now like

13 to take you back to the two photographs that I showed you earlier.

14 MR. IERACE: Perhaps Ms. Philpott could place the two photographs

15 in front of the witness. They are Exhibits P3279OA and P3265. I draw

16 your attention in particular to P3265. Perhaps Ms. Philpott could place

17 in photograph on the ELMO in Sarajevo.

18 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, it appears that you also placed some black lines

19 on the student hostel in September of 2001. Is that correct?

20 A. I don't remember, but probably when it was taken, these lines were

21 placed there. And it is assumed that that's where the shooting -- that

22 the shooting took place there.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I do

25 apologise. But yes, we were speaking about the other buildings later on.

Page 5793

1 I think I heard the witness say that he himself did not make those black

2 lines on any of the buildings. At least, as far as the two front

3 buildings are concerned, he said that he didn't place the black lines

4 there. So Mr. Ierace's question seems to me to be inexact in respect of

5 what the witness himself said.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you please respond. My

7 recollection -- well, let's not talk about my recollection.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, so as to avoid any doubt as to the

9 issue, I will clarify.

10 Excuse me, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you perhaps assist us, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. You

12 say that the witness said that he didn't place the black lines there.

13 Could you indicate where he said that.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. That was

15 my recollection, but I will check it out willingly. If the Prosecution

16 hasn't found it, I'll do it myself. Quite willing to. I was following

17 the Serbian. That's why the English transcript, I don't know if it says

18 the same thing, but I'll check it out.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could, whatever is in the transcript at

20 this very moment, perhaps clarify the issue, Mr. Ierace, or --

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Page 59, line 12. Line 11 says: "Did you put

22 those black marks on that photograph?" The answer is: "Yes, I did."

23 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please then proceed.


Page 5794

1 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a

4 technical problem. My colleague and General Galic said that he didn't say

5 that in Serbian. Now, I will check what the transcript says, and perhaps

6 we can come back to that point of what was said.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you think, on the basis of your research of the

8 original tape, that the transcript should be changed, of course we'll be

9 glad to pay proper attention to that. On the other hand, you'll

10 understand that we cannot find it out right away, so please come back to

11 it.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you,

13 Mr. President.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'll approach the issue from a

15 different direction. I ask that a document be placed on the ELMO,

16 identified as "Statement" at this stage.

17 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, please look on your computer screen and tell me

18 if you see a typed document.

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 MR. IERACE: I ask that the document be moved up the screen so

21 that we can see the bottom of it.

22 Q. Do you recognise on the screen your signature?

23 A. I recognise it, yes.

24 Q. Do you also see on the screen a date?

25 A. I see it, the 25th of the 9th, 2001. 25th of September.

Page 5795

1 Q. Did you write that date? Is the date in your handwriting?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. Did you place your signature and the date on this document as a

4 means of confirming the contents of a document as read --

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. -- as read and translated to you on that date as being correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. That's right.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the statement is only six lines long.

11 My learned colleagues have a copy. I propose to read the statement to the

12 witness; the relevance of it is to refresh his memory as to the reason he

13 made the marks on the photograph which I anticipate were made on the same

14 date.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace. And perhaps you read

16 slowly since I must assume that the interpreters' booths have no

17 translation at this -- no copy of it at this moment.

18 Please proceed.


20 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, I'm going to read to you the contents of that

21 statement made by you on the 25th of September, 2001, to an investigator

22 of the Prosecutor's office. Do you understand?

23 A. I understand.

24 Q. All right. I will now read the statement.

25 "Further to my previous statements, today investigator Jonathan

Page 5796

1 Tait-Harris has shown me a photograph that shows the area of the scene of

2 the incident about which I have made a witness statement. I have marked

3 upon the photograph the parts of buildings that were destroyed or damaged

4 to such an extent that they allowed a far greater field of view. I

5 confirm that the photograph is an accurate representation of the scene.

6 As such, I have endorsed the photograph with my signature and today's

7 date."

8 That completes your statement. Mr. Kapetanovic, does that remind

9 you of --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise for

12 intervening, but what I see of the statement is that the witness is

13 declaring that he covered the photograph with his signature, and I am

14 going to quote, and it is today's date. On the document that we're

15 talking about, I do not see any date whatsoever, Mr. President, which once

16 again poses the problem of document authenticity. All I see is the

17 possible signature of the witness and nothing else. I don't know if

18 Mr. Ierace can show me the date on his own document, where it is. Because

19 on my document, Mr. Ierace, I don't see any date.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I agree that the photograph does not

22 bear a date, but the witness has not disputed and, as I understood it,

23 until that moment, the Defence has not disputed that this was the

24 photograph indeed signed by the witness. The witness has given evidence

25 already that he signed this photograph at about the same time as he

Page 5797

1 cooperated in the making of the video in approximately September of last

2 year. Therefore, although the photograph does not bear a date, in my

3 submission, that does not preclude the Prosecution from proceeding on the

4 basis consistent with the witness's evidence that this is indeed the

5 photograph referred to in the statement.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I ask you what specific

7 interest you have in knowing the date of the picture? I mean, the

8 testimony seems to be quite clear that this is not a picture which

9 reflects the situation at the time of the incident. Is it that you -- so

10 I think -- I don't know whether you could agree on that together with the

11 Prosecution. So if you could agree on that, I'd like then to know what is

12 the specific reason why you'd like to know what date, if not the date of

13 the incident, the photograph is.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Let me

15 say that I'm completely indifferent to the date. It doesn't matter to

16 me. What I'm not indifferent to is the fact that this witness, in a

17 statement that has just been quoted by the mouth of Mr. Ierace, he said

18 that on the document he recognises the reality of the scene, the exact

19 scene, and to confirm it. He placed two things on the document: One was

20 his signature and the second point was the date on that day. So

21 necessarily we seem to be speaking about a different document, and this

22 document, or at least one of the two -- does not have one of the two

23 observations of the witness; that is to say, it does not include both the

24 signature and the date. So I would like to know where is the document

25 that the Prosecution refers to? Because there must be another document,

Page 5798

1 according to the witness, which should have, written in his own

2 handwriting, both his signature and the date on that day.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I now better understand your objection.

4 Mr. Ierace, could you --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- respond.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, clearly it is an oversight that the

8 date is not on the photograph. In saying that, I also rely on the ERN

9 numbers of the statement and the photograph. The statement commences with

10 ERN 0211-4232. The last page of the statement, that is, the written part

11 of the statement, is 0211-4235. The ERN of the photograph is 0211-4236.

12 In other words, this photograph formed part of that statement at the time

13 that it was processed by the Evidence Unit. Mr. President, I also seek to

14 ask a further question or two of the witness, since this has become an

15 issue.



18 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


21 Q. -- do you still have in front of you the photograph that bears

22 your signature in the area of the sky?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first give the opportunity to

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I'm not

Page 5799

1 quite sure that I fully grasped what the Prosecution said with these

2 figures. It is, however, very important that we know whether this first

3 statement which was given by the statement [as interpreted] conforms with

4 this so that we can see quite clearly so as to know this type of

5 photograph. Otherwise the conclusion is obvious.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just see whether Mr. Ierace, in putting

7 questions to the witness, could clarify the issue witness or otherwise

8 could clarify the issue raised by you.


10 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you still have in front of you the photograph

11 which has your signature on it, that is, the photograph that you signed?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Do you remember the contents of your statement?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. In your statement, you referred to a photograph where you marked

16 parts of buildings that were destroyed or damaged.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry. I'm not

19 getting the interpretation. I cannot hear the witness answering, and this

20 is already the third question that my learned friend is asking. And

21 General Galic also tells me that he cannot hear.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's just first check on whether the B/C/S

23 audio channel gives a signal. Could you please speak a few words,

24 Mr. Kapetanovic, since we have difficulties in receiving your voice in the

25 original language. Just count to ten. That will do.

Page 5800

1 Ms. Philpott, could you please assist us in asking the witness to

2 speak a few words in his own language so that we can see whether the audio

3 is functioning well.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you well. I don't

5 know whether there is some other problem, but I can hear very well.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. We confirm that there is

7 an improvement. We now hear what the witness is saying in Serbian.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kapetanovic, since some of us could not hear your

9 answers to a couple of questions, I expect Mr. Ierace to take you back a

10 few questions, and would you then please answer perhaps the same questions

11 again so that we all can hear your answers.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


14 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you still have in front of you the photograph

15 that you signed?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. Do you remember the contents of your statement dated the 25th of

18 September, 2001?

19 A. Well, I do remember certain things. I don't remember others. It

20 was read to me at that time, and I know what I stated, what I will state

21 now again.

22 Q. In the statement, you referred to a photograph on which you marked

23 parts of buildings that were destroyed or damaged. Is that correct?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. Which photograph was that?

Page 5801

1 A. This photograph with my full name on it.

2 Q. When you say "full name," do you mean your signature on it?

3 A. And signature, yes.

4 MR. IERACE: Perhaps Ms. Philpott could place that photograph that

5 the witness is referring to on the ELMO so that we can see it in

6 The Hague.

7 Thank you.

8 For the record, that is Photograph Exhibit Number P3265.

9 Q. Therefore, Mr. Kapetanovic, the marks that you placed on the

10 student hostel were to indicate that it was destroyed or damaged so that

11 there was a far greater field of view. Is that correct?

12 A. It is.

13 Q. Would you please now look at Photograph P3279OA.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can the witness

16 be asked to tell us what the date was, because he seems to remember the

17 date -- the time of the statement, and perhaps he will remember the time

18 of the day.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course you may ask these

20 questions when cross-examining the witness. I don't think that there's

21 any necessity at this moment.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.


24 Q. Do you now have in front of you photograph -- I'll withdraw that.

25 MR. IERACE: Perhaps Ms. Philpott can place that photograph on the

Page 5802

1 ELMO in Sarajevo.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It is, as far as I can see, Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Kapetanovic, we saw you indicate a position on the

5 footpath of Ante Babica Street where you and the other two men were when

6 the three of you were shot. Do you see in this photograph that part of

7 the footpath where you were standing at that time?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. Would you please point to it with your pen.

10 A. [Indicates].

11 Q. Perhaps the ELMO could zoom back.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right.

14 MR. IERACE: Now, for the benefit of the transcript, the witness

15 indicates a position to the left of the photograph where two pedestrian

16 crossings would meet up if extended. It is approximately in the position

17 of what appears to be a box on the footpath with two footpaths radiating

18 from the box.

19 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you remember that when we saw the photograph

20 on the screen taken from the position where you were shot, there was a

21 building very close by with dark brick?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm sorry. I'm

24 trying to be as precise as possible. The description by Mr. Ierace in

25 English describes the zone where two pedestrians were crossing, and I must

Page 5803

1 confess that I do not see anyone crossing, but there are several

2 pedestrians. So could Mr. Ierace be more accurate in his description.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think Mr. Ierace was referring

4 to pedestrian crossings, which is where pedestrians cross the road.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interest of saving time, I'll

6 ask the witness to mark the position. That should overcome my friend's

7 objection.

8 JUDGE ORIE: To mark it. Isn't it an exhibit that has already

9 been entered into evidence, Mr. Ierace?

10 MR. IERACE: I correct myself, Mr. President. You're quite right.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, I think it was quite clear. I'm

12 very grateful for Mr. Piletta-Zanin if he assists us in explaining to us

13 what is unclear in the English text. But I think that this was not

14 necessary and would suggest a better understanding of the English language

15 before doing so.

16 Please proceed.


18 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, marking could be done if there is an

20 extra copy available in Sarajevo, of course. I wouldn't prevent you from

21 marking, but not on the -- I think the original might be here, and then

22 Ms. Philpott would have to take the marked copy from Sarajevo to

23 The Hague. And it should be given then another number. That would be

24 possible, I assume.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I can describe the position in

Page 5804

1 a different way that would remove my friend's doubt. The position

2 indicated by the witness was to the left of the photograph in the vicinity

3 of the intersection of the four-lane road which appears across the bottom

4 of the photograph and a road that extends parallel to the side of the

5 photograph, to the left of a red vehicle on the intersection. Thank you.

6 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you remember that a short while ago, I showed

7 you a photograph on the computer screen taken from where you indicated you

8 and the other two men were shot. Do you remember that?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. Do you also remember that we moved the photograph around in a

11 circle, and you pointed out certain things as we moved around the

12 photograph?

13 A. Yes, I do remember it.

14 Q. Do you remember that there was a small building with dark-coloured

15 bricks very close to that position, and you said that building was there

16 at the time that the three of you were shot?

17 A. That's right, but there was a building further away which was

18 shown. This building was built later on, that I mentioned earlier.

19 That's it.

20 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

21 A. There was a store there.

22 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, I will show you again the electronic photograph.

23 Please watch your screen and tell us when you can see it.

24 Can you see it now?

25 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Your Honour, we do not have the

Page 5805

1 photograph on the screen.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you, Ms. Philpott, confirm to us as soon as you

3 have the 360-degrees photograph on your screen in Sarajevo.

4 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] We now have the image on the screen.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


7 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you see on the screen in front of you a

8 high-rise white building to the left?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Was that building there on the day that you were shot?

11 A. Yes, it was.

12 Q. Do you see that the first two floors, approximately, appear to be

13 a light-blue colour?

14 A. I see it.

15 Q. I will move the photograph slightly to the left. Do you see that

16 in front of the building, that is, between the camera and the white

17 building, there is a building with a red roof which consists of just a

18 ground level?

19 A. I see it.

20 Q. Please look again at the photograph taken from above and place

21 that -- I think -- and place that on the ELMO.

22 MR. IERACE: Perhaps Ms. Philpott could do that. For the record,

23 that's P3279OA.

24 Q. All right. Now, would you please look to the right of that

25 photograph. Move your pen to the right edge of the photograph.

Page 5806

1 Mr. Kapetanovic, could you please move your pen to the right edge of the

2 photograph. Mr. Kapetanovic, can you hear me?

3 A. I can, yes.

4 Q. Please move your pen to the right of the photograph. Please move

5 it to the right edge of the photograph.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Not to the right edge of the building but to the

7 right edge of the photograph itself, Mr. Kapetanovic, please.


9 Q. All right. Mr. Kapetanovic --

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Yes, thank you. Thank you.

12 A. Here, you mean?

13 Q. Yes. Now, on the right edge of the photograph, do you see a

14 high-rise building which is white and the first two floors or so are blue,

15 that is, the top right-hand corner of the photograph?

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. All right. I think you are now pointing at that building; is that

18 correct?

19 A. It is.

20 Q. Now, do you remember on the electronic photograph I pointed out

21 another building in between the camera and the high-rise building which

22 has a red roof and it is just the ground floor? Do you see that

23 photograph -- I'm sorry. Do you see that building in the photograph?

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Are you now pointing at that building?

Page 5807

1 A. I am.

2 MR. IERACE: For the record, the witness -- perhaps we could have

3 the ELMO back again. The witness is pointing --

4 Q. Could you please put your pointer back on that building,

5 Mr. Kapetanovic.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 MR. IERACE: For the record, the witness is pointing at a building

8 with a red roof which appears on the extreme right-hand side of the

9 photograph, slightly below centre.

10 Q. Now, do you remember that on the electronic photograph, that

11 building that you're now pointing at was in the same line of sight, as

12 seen from where you were shot, as the white high-rise building behind it?

13 Do you see that?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. All right. Now go -- look again at the photograph to which you

16 were pointing. That's Exhibit P3279OA. And can you see on the photograph

17 in front of you the corner --

18 A. I do.

19 Q. Can you now see in that photograph the part of the footpath where

20 you were standing when you and the other two men were shot?

21 A. I can see part of the pavement, but I do not see the exact spot.

22 Q. All right. Now look again at the electronic photograph, which we

23 will move to the right. Let me know when you can see the electronic

24 photograph on the screen. Can you see it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5808

1 Q. All right. What --

2 A. Now I see it.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... as we move the photograph

4 slowly to the right. Do you see that a short distance in front of the

5 camera there is a side street? Do you see that?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. All right. We will now continue to move the photograph to the

8 right. Do you see that there is a building almost on that intersection,

9 that is, it would seem, a matter of a few --

10 A. Yes, I can see it.

11 Q. -- a matter of a few metres from where you were shot? Is that

12 correct?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. Please wait for a moment.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, meanwhile, my

17 apologies to the Chamber and the Prosecution for my last intervention. I

18 wasn't -- I really misheard. I didn't quite get what Mr. Ierace was

19 saying. But I accept the ruling of the Chamber. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


22 Q. All right. Now, we will continue moving the photograph slightly

23 to the right, and please look at the roof of that small building as we do

24 so. All right. Now, please look again at the photograph, that is,

25 photograph --

Page 5809

1 A. I can't see it very well.

2 MR. IERACE: Perhaps we could have on the screen the photograph on

3 the ELMO in Sarajevo.

4 Q. Now, do you see, on the bottom right-hand corner of the

5 photograph, in the very bottom of the right-hand corner of the photograph,

6 there is a pedestrian crossing? Do you see that?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. Please point to it. Please point to the pedestrian crossing in

9 the bottom right-hand corner, further to the bottom.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. And to the right. Further to the right and to the bottom.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Thank you. You are now pointing -- please place your pointer back

14 on the photograph.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. And please leave your pointer there for a moment. You are now

17 pointing at the pedestrian crossing which appears in the bottom right-hand

18 corner of the photograph; is that correct?

19 A. It is.

20 Q. All right. Do you see that immediately to the left of that

21 pedestrian crossing, one can see part of a roof, a flat brown roof? Do

22 you see that?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. And one can see a person standing on the footpath alongside that

25 roof. Do you see that person?

Page 5810

1 A. Well, not all that well really. But...

2 Q. Would you please point to the roof.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. No. Would you bring your pointer back down to the bottom

5 right-hand corner of the photograph. Please take your pointer back to

6 where it was before in the bottom right-hand corner of the photograph.

7 A. The red house or --

8 Q. No, no. Please take it to where you had it just a moment ago at

9 the bottom of the photograph.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Thank you. Now, do you see that perhaps a centimetre to the left

12 of your pen tip, there is a person standing on the footpath?

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. Yes. Underneath your pen tip, do you see a person standing on the

15 footpath?

16 A. Yes, I see that.

17 Q. Do you see that there appears to be a brown flat roof alongside

18 the person? Underneath your pen.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. Yes.

21 MR. IERACE: Witness now points --

22 A. Yes, yes, I see it.

23 Q. All right. Now, having regard to the electronic photograph, in

24 particular, the position of the high-rise white building, the red roofed

25 one-floor building, and the dark-brown small building immediately

Page 5811

1 alongside where you were when you were shot, does it follow that you were

2 standing on the footpath --

3 A. In the direction on the crossing towards the end of the road where

4 there is the pedestrian crossing, and we were on the road facing the

5 structures that were photographed, those three buildings. That is the

6 direction that we were moving to, being 10, 15 metres, perhaps even less

7 than that, away.

8 Q. All right. If I can put it to you another way, do you see the

9 person standing alongside the roof? Please point to that person again.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Is that approximately where you were -- no. Can you bring the

12 pointer back down to the flat brown roof.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. Thank you. Is that approximately where you were standing when you

15 and the other two men were shot?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you accurately point out the position where you were standing

18 when you and the other two men were shot to the investigator --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but only for the

21 transcript, it is quite possible that the clear -- the answer of the

22 witness is no, but it is rendered at the moment we could not hear because

23 the counsel was not speaking into the microphone indicating then two

24 pedestrian crossings in front of this small structure which the

25 Prosecution described as a brownish colour. And the answer of the witness

Page 5812

1 was "no." And it is where the two pedestrian crossing meet and where

2 there is a white car and in front of a brownish building which was

3 described by the Prosecution as having the roof of that colour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Ierace, I think I'd better interfere.

5 Mr. Kapetanovic, you have seen a video before. You also have seen

6 a picture that was moving in all directions. You then indicated where you

7 were standing when two men accompanying were shot, were shot at. At this

8 video, did you indicate precisely where you were standing?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did, precisely.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Did the other photograph which you could look in all

11 directions indicate also the position where you were at that time, and was

12 that the position from which you could look around?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, it's ten minutes -- it's five minutes to

15 2.00 now. I don't know whether this would be a suitable moment to

16 interrupt your examination-in-chief. Could you indicate how much time

17 you'd still need? Because I am aware of the problems you're having as far

18 as the speed is concerned.

19 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Although I only have about five

20 minutes to go, I think that in terms of reliability, the witness would

21 benefit from a break. I'd be grateful if I could do those five minutes

22 tomorrow morning.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps that's wiser to do.

24 Mr. Kapetanovic, the counsel for the Prosecution still has a few

25 questions for you, but since we have to take a break here, this courtroom

Page 5813

1 is needed this afternoon, we'll continue tomorrow morning. Are you --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Are you able to come back tomorrow morning?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I have to be able to so that

5 we can finish it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I'm glad that you're willing to come back tomorrow

7 morning. So we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, but not yet.

8 As far as I see, Mr. Kapetanovic, we expect you to be back

9 tomorrow morning. And we'll resume at 9.00 in the time of the Hague, and

10 Ms. Philpott will be able to tell you exactly what time it is tomorrow

11 morning. Thank you very much for coming, and we'll see you again tomorrow

12 morning.

13 Ms. Philpott, the witness may be escorted out of the courtroom.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: It's clear, Mr. President, that we will not finish

17 the evidence tomorrow. Is it possible for the videolink evidence to

18 continue on Friday?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, we have to check with the Registry whether

20 it could be done. I assume that it will be possible.

21 Madam Registrar, could you give us any information on that?

22 Madam Registrar is trying to get the information.

23 Yes, please, Defence counsel.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I wanted

25 to say something else. The Defence has absolutely nothing against it,

Page 5814












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13 English transcripts.













Page 5815

1 obviously. But I must repeat my apologies for a moment ago, because

2 obviously it was my mistake a moment ago, the misapprehension on my part,

3 and therefore my fault, mea culpa.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the Chamber accepted already, in deep

5 silence, your earlier apologies, so that's -- now we also explicitly

6 accept it. But please be aware that if we remain silent on my apologies,

7 that we can be considered to have accepted them.

8 Madam Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, I received a confirmation that there

10 is no problem to continue with the videolink on Friday. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning,

12 9.00, same courtroom.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of March,

15 2002, at 9.00 a.m.