Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5816

1 Thursday, 21 March 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

9 Good morning to everyone as well in this courtroom and for those

10 assisting us just outside the courtroom. I did understand that in order

11 to proceed, that there is a possibility that we would sit a bit longer

12 today. That would mean that we'll, if this is also okay as far as

13 Sarajevo is concerned, that we would have a bit longer second break, not

14 20 minutes, but half an hour, and then continue a bit longer. I

15 understood that all those assisting us have been consulted on these

16 plans.

17 Let me then just check on whether the link with Sarajevo is

18 running. I see on some screens, not on mine at this very moment -- yes, I

19 have it on my screen now as well -- that the representative of the

20 registry in Sarajevo is present.

21 I think, Mr. Ierace, we could continue the examination-in-chief of

22 the witness after the witness has been brought in but not until after

23 having heard what Mr. Piletta-Zanin wants to bring to my attention.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, Your

25 Honours, good morning. Thank you for giving me the floor. It is simply

Page 5817

1 this: Yesterday, we asked a question of the Prosecution which is of

2 fundamental importance for the Defence, and the question was, how is it

3 possible that a text which in Serbian, in its Serbian original, does not

4 include certain line of text, certain words, how can it be translated into

5 another language, into a text with some lines which we know do not exist

6 in the source document? That question will -- could arise whenever we

7 have a medical document which is submitted by the Prosecution, and I think

8 that the question of methodology is very important. I would like to

9 invite the Prosecution to tell us how is that possible, because apparently

10 other documents which were submitted to -- the other documents were

11 submitted to -- for translation which the Defence or anyone else has never

12 seen. And to our mind, this is really a fundamental issue.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: If the Prosecution would like to respond on it, we do

15 not oppose against it. But we'll not give an order to respond to the

16 question, at least not at this very moment. Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would prefer not to respond to it at

18 this stage, and continue with the evidence if that's acceptable to the

19 Trial Chamber.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's acceptable.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Mr. Ierace, if at some later stage

23 you would be able, whether in writing or just in a short oral statement,

24 to give us an explanation, if you can give it, that would, of course, be

25 of assistance for the Chamber in order to better understand how the

Page 5818

1 preparation of the Prosecution's case was organised.

2 MR. IERACE: I will do that, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.

4 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. One question, then: In

6 that case, and under those conditions, since we do not have now the

7 response of the Prosecution, the Defence clearly says that it will be,

8 therefore, handicapped in its cross-examination of this witness.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand your position,

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 Mr. Ierace, I'll now ask the Registry in Sarajevo to escort the

12 witness into the courtroom.

13 Ms. Philpott, could you please escort the witness into the

14 courtroom -- in the videoroom, I would say.

15 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, just a

17 moment. Sometimes we have problem with the transcript. I'm re-reading

18 the English transcript. What I said, that "these witnesses" and not "this

19 witness." Let us make it very precise. I mean, this will prejudice our

20 cross-examination for all -- prejudice our cross-examination of all the

21 witnesses with whom we may have this kind of problem. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your clarification, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Kapetanovic. Can you hear me --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Good morning. I can

Page 5819

1 1 hear you very well.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Mr. Kapetanovic, may I remind

3 you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the

4 beginning of your testimony. Now your examination by counsel for the --

5 by counsel for the Prosecution will continue.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 [Witness testified through videolink]

10 Examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kapetanovic.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. Yesterday afternoon, you said that, as we saw on the video, you

14 indicated precisely where you were at the time that you and the other two

15 men were shot. You also agreed that --

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. You also told us that the photograph in which you can look in all

18 directions was --

19 A. Quite correct.

20 Q. All right. You told us that that photograph showed the view from

21 where you were shot. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, yes, it is.

23 Q. With the assistance of Ms. Philpott, can you see on your computer

24 screen now the view from where you were shot of the tall white building

25 with the blue band?

Page 5820

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Looking at that photograph, do you agree that the white building

3 with the blue band is on the opposite corner to where you were shot?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. With the assistance of Ms. Philpott, would you look again this

6 morning at the photograph on which you placed your signature and some

7 black lines, that is, Exhibit P3265.

8 THE INTERPRETER: We are sorry. Could the witness please repeat

9 his answer. There is pretty bad interference.


11 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, we were unable to hear clearly your last answer.

12 Could you please repeat it.

13 A. I have the photograph in front of me.

14 Q. Yesterday, you said that the student hostel, which appears on the

15 right of that photograph, was damaged, and it was possible to see through

16 the building because of the damage. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. As you walked along Ante Babica Street on that day, was it

19 possible to see through the floors of that building?

20 A. I couldn't because it was too high up.

21 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, yesterday you told us that you believed that the

22 shot or shots were fired from the school for the blind, or I think you

23 might have called it the home for the blind. Is that correct?

24 A. It is. As far as I could see, that is correct.

25 Q. Have you ever been to the home for the blind?

Page 5821

1 A. No, I never entered the building, but I frequently pass by. I

2 know the area very well.

3 Q. How many buildings made up the home for the blind, approximately?

4 A. It has the ground floor and two floors above it.

5 Q. Do you mean it was one building or more than one building?

6 A. The blind people's home is one building, but next to it was an old

7 people's home, but it is a little bit further away from the blind people's

8 home, about 50 -- about a hundred metres away. So I cannot be quite sure,

9 but I think that the bullets which hit us came from the blind people's

10 home.

11 Q. Would you please look again at the photograph taken from above,

12 which for the transcript is P3279OA.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you ask this photograph to be put

14 on the ELMO in Sarajevo. I was informed that there might be some

15 confusion now and then which -- to what is exactly in front of the

16 witness.

17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. All right. Thank you for that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: In Sarajevo.


20 Q. In that photograph, can you see the school for the blind?

21 A. Yes, a bit further away, I can see it. But between this small

22 building and the students hostel, that is where you can see it.

23 Q. Could you please point to the school for the blind on the

24 photograph.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 5822

1 MR. IERACE: Witness points to the top left-hand corner of

2 photograph P3279OA, and in particular there is a road in the top left-hand

3 corner. The witness points to a building with a white roof on the right

4 side of the road.

5 Mr. President, I understand there may be a spare copy of P3279OA

6 in Sarajevo. Perhaps Ms. Philpott could confirm that.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] I have one colour photograph,

8 P3279OA, and I have a black and white photocopy of the same photograph.

9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I propose to ask the witness to circle

10 the building that he just indicated. I assume that the photograph, that

11 is, the colour photograph, before the witness is not the original of the

12 exhibit that was tendered before Mr. Dziho.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just confirm with the registry here in The

14 Hague whether the originally tendered colour copy is here in The Hague.

15 Yes, it is confirmed to me that the original photograph, coloured

16 photograph, is in The Hague. So even the coloured copy in Sarajevo must

17 be a spare copy.

18 Would you please put that on the ELMO, Ms. Philpott. It is on the

19 ELMO, I think. Yes, please proceed.


21 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, would you please take a blue pen, that is, a pen

22 with blue ink, and place a circle -- draw a circle around the building

23 which you think is the school for the blind on that photograph.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Mr. President, I think that would be P3279OB.

Page 5823



3 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, yesterday, you said a bullet hit your belt during

4 this incident. Is that correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What part of your clothing --

7 A. What I said was that it grazed my belt, just ever so slightly, and

8 it hit those other two: Vucic, the one who died, and Franjic, who was hit

9 in the stomach. So I wasn't really hit. It barely brushed against my

10 belt. I didn't even feel it.

11 Q. All right. Now, as the bullet grazed your belt, where was that

12 part of the belt on your body? In other words, was the part that was

13 grazed in the middle or to one side or behind you?

14 A. My left side, in the centre.

15 Q. Would you please stand up and point to the part of your waist

16 where the bullet grazed your belt.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates his left side.

19 Q. You may sit down again, Mr. Kapetanovic.

20 A. Thank you.

21 Q. Could you please explain to us why it is you think the bullet came

22 from your right side if it grazed your belt on your left side?

23 A. The assumption is that these two, that is Franjic was the first

24 one and was hit in the stomach. The other one was hit in the kidney and

25 he was severely injured. And the assumption is that perhaps there was yet

Page 5824

1 another bullet, but it is just an assumption. I don't know. The sniper

2 who hit him, perhaps when that happened, perhaps I was one step ahead or

3 behind and that is how I was caught in the waist. But that is merely an

4 assumption. I don't know. But that is how it happened anyway.

5 Q. Do you recollect exactly which direction you were facing at the

6 time of the shooting?

7 A. We were facing Dobrinja. We were moving towards Dobrinja, so we

8 were facing Dobrinja.

9 Q. I understand that. But I wonder whether you remember with

10 precision how your body was placed at the exact moment of the shooting.

11 A. It faces -- well, as we walked, it was to one side, that is, in

12 the direction of Dobrinja as we walked, because we were walking abreast.

13 Q. Yes. Thank you.

14 MR. IERACE: No further questions, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

16 So I must confess I missed the actual marking, and I'd like to ask

17 Ms. Philpott in Sarajevo perhaps if the coloured photograph, P3279OB, is

18 still on the ELMO, just to zoom in so that I can... It is, yes. It's on

19 your screen. And perhaps exactly show there where the witness marked the

20 home for the blind.

21 Could you please perhaps go a bit more to the left upper corner of

22 the photograph where I would ... Yes. I see the marking now. Thank you

23 very much.

24 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

25 Mr. Kapetanovic, you will now be examined by counsel for the

Page 5825

1 Defence.

2 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kapetanovic, good morning to you.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. You told us that in 1994, you lived in Sarajevo.

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. Can you tell us which part of town you lived in?

10 A. Alipasino Polje Trg Solidarnosti, or Solidarity Square.

11 Q. Can you tell us, please, since when have you lived in Alipasino

12 Polje?

13 A. 1992, May. We fled from the house we were in until that time.

14 Q. When you say you fled in May 1992 from the house, the facility,

15 can you tell us where you had lived up until that time before you fled?

16 A. Stupsko Brdo. Stup hill.

17 Q. Can you tell us, please, how far Stupsko Brdo is from Alipasino

18 Polje?

19 A. Perhaps 2 kilometres away, because Stupsko Brdo is a rather long

20 stretch.

21 Q. In May 1992, at Alipasino Polje, did you flee together with the

22 whole of your family? Did you all flee?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you tell us, please, which army, from 1992 when you fled, up

25 until the period in August 1994, which army controlled Stupsko Brdo? The

Page 5826

1 Defence is interested in that.

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. I'm asking you which army.

4 A. The army of Yugoslavia.

5 Q. So you're saying that Stupsko Brdo was controlled by the army of

6 Yugoslavia. Is that right?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Do you happen to know that Stupsko Brdo was also controlled by the

9 army of the Croatian defence council and the army of BH? Are you aware of

10 that?

11 A. No, not that part of Stupsko Brdo. They weren't in control of

12 that part of Stupsko Brdo because they couldn't reach that area because

13 the actual front was at Stupsko Brdo, towards the Oslobodenje building.

14 If you know the Oslobodenje building, it is 12 metres in depth, which is

15 where the army of Yugoslavia was.

16 Q. When you reached Alipasino Polje and took up residence in the

17 apartment on Solidarity Square, Trg Solidarnosti, can you tell us who was

18 in the flat when you went there?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kapetanovic, could you please repeat your answer.

21 The interpreters could not hear you.

22 A. I was living in the apartment belonging to my son-in-law and

23 daughter. And it was building number 13.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kapetanovic.

Page 5827

1 A. Thank you, too.

2 Q. You have said that in 1994, in the month of April, you were going

3 out for a walk with your neighbour, Ivan Franjic. Is that right?

4 A. Correct, correct. Not only Ivan Franjic, but Augustin Vucic,

5 too. There were three of us, and he was the third.

6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how often in the course of 1992, when

7 you moved house, up until the moment when the incident took place, how

8 often you would go out for a walk?

9 A. Well, from time to time, one, two, three days, depending, because

10 the front line was close by. So we didn't dare move around much, because

11 you could target this area with infantry weapons, but we went out for

12 walks nonetheless and that's why we got what we got.

13 Q. Can you tell us in that period of time, that is to say, during

14 your walks, when you went out for a walk, did you always walk around the

15 same area that you went out for a walk in on that critical day?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, when you went out for your walks during that period, can you

18 tell us whether there was any firing in that part of town, any shooting?

19 A. No, there wasn't, not when we went out for walks. But on that

20 particular day, there was, of course. It happened.

21 Q. Can you tell us, or rather can you confirm, that on that

22 particular day, as you said you went out for a walk at about 10.00. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. If I say to you that your friend, Ivan Franjic, gave a statement

Page 5828

1 to the investigators of the Prosecution on the 21st of November, 1995,

2 page 2 of the statement which your friend gave - it is Document 0090-6701

3 in the B/C/S version, that is - Part 6, I'm going to read out what your

4 friend says here, or paragraph 6. "I can't remember at the moment what

5 time it was exactly on that particular day when I was hit, but it was in

6 the afternoon."

7 Now, can you tell us what is correct? Is it true -- is the time

8 that you say you went out for a walk correct, or was it indeed the

9 afternoon as your friend says?

10 A. I claim that it was before noon at about 10.00. Perhaps the man

11 couldn't remember when it was because he was rather seriously wounded. So

12 maybe he was a little upset, too, because his wounds were very serious, so

13 maybe he didn't remember. But I claim it was before noon at about 10.00.

14 Now, whether it was a few minutes before or after 10.00, I can't say for

15 sure, but I'm certain that it was about 10.00.

16 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, can you tell us the following: The area you

17 lived in, that is to say Trg Solidarnosti, and part of Alipasino Polje,

18 which as you're moving towards Dobrinja there's a square there, do you

19 happen to know within that particular area there were any military

20 facilities belonging to the army of --

21 A. As far as I remember, we didn't see anything, they didn't exist

22 the way we walked. We didn't see any military facilities, nor were there

23 any soldiers around. The only thing that I can say is that towards the

24 Aleksa Santic School was where the army was, and the soldiers belonging to

25 it. They had control over that area there. They had the area in their

Page 5829

1 own hands.

2 Q. Can you tell us whether at Trg Solidarnosti, Solidarity Square,

3 and the Zavnobih Square, which is the other square on Alipasino Polje --

4 A. Yes, that's correct. I know it well.

5 Q. Can you tell us whether on these two squares, in these two

6 squares, there were police stations in the two squares?

7 A. On Solidarity Square, or 50 metres away from the square, there was

8 a police station. I don't know about any other police station, whether

9 there was another one or not. But I remember that particular one on Trg

10 Solidarnosti.

11 Q. If I tell you that your friend Ivan Franjic in his statement dated

12 the 21st of November, 1995, on page 2 of document 0090-6701, the B/C/S

13 version, in paragraph 3, line 2, says the following: "The area I live in

14 in Alipasino Polje is a residential settlement, and there was a kiosk

15 there and a bakery and a butcher's shop. That's where the HVO was. The

16 HVO was there and a police station."

17 Would that be correct?

18 A. Correct. But in continuation on Trg Solidarnosti, some 200 metres

19 away, there was a little small thing. But the police did exist, yes.

20 Q. And what about the HVO facility? What building was that located

21 in? What kind of building was it housed in?

22 A. It was a ground floor -- of the ground floor and an office space,

23 office premises. There was nothing else there.

24 Q. During 1992, 1993, and 1994, in that part of town, did you happen

25 to see soldiers belonging to the HVO, HVO soldiers?

Page 5830

1 A. Whenever we went by there, I didn't see any. I didn't see them.

2 It was a sort of warehouse, something like that there and I never saw any

3 soldiers there. I, myself, I personally. Maybe somebody did, but I

4 didn't personally.

5 Q. In 1992 and 1993 and 1994, in that area, did you see soldiers

6 belonging to the BH army perhaps?

7 A. No, I didn't see anyone. There were some individuals going to and

8 fro, but not as a group.

9 Q. When you say you saw them individually coming back from their

10 shift, I think you said, can you tell us what they were wearing, those

11 people that you saw?

12 A. They were wearing normal clothes, the type that the army wore, the

13 type that soldiers wore, the yellow, olive-green, grey, striped type of

14 uniform clothing.

15 Q. Did you happen to see these people with arms, with weapons?

16 A. No. No, there was nobody with any weapons there.

17 Q. In that part of town, the part of town you lived in and where the

18 police station was, did you happen to see policemen, any policemen?

19 A. Yes, I did. But without any weapons, not armed.

20 Q. Can you tell us what they were wearing? What kind of uniforms did

21 they have?

22 A. Well, the ordinary type of uniform that they used to wear before

23 the war. You know the type of uniform that policemen wore, I'm sure.

24 Q. On that particular day when you went out for your walk, did all

25 three of you meet up at the same time, or did you and Mr. Franjic start

Page 5831

1 out on your walk earlier?

2 A. As the two of us lived in one facility, one building, we went on

3 to Ante Babica where we -- Street, where we met up with Augustin Vucic,

4 and he went with us, and we walked in the direction of Dobrinja.

5 Q. Can you tell us, please, in Branko Bujic Street when you went out

6 for your walk, the place you said that the incident took place, can you

7 tell us what number it was, what number of the building?

8 A. I really can't say. I don't know. I didn't look. I wasn't

9 interested. It didn't occur to me.

10 Q. When you told us and confirmed that you know where the HVO

11 headquarters was and the police station, could you -- do you also confirm

12 that that was on Trg Solidarnosti where you lived?

13 A. I lived on Trg Solidarnosti in building number 13. It was Trg

14 Solidarnosti. That's where we lived and moved around, because it was

15 dangerous to move around.

16 Q. You said yesterday that the front line, in relation to the place

17 or rather the street you were walking along, was about three to four

18 hundred metres away. Is that correct?

19 A. Not 300 and 400. I said 200 metres, not more than 200 metres.

20 We were walking around there, and the front line was -- or the trenches

21 and communicating trenches were 200 metres away from where we were

22 walking.

23 Q. You told us yesterday that the part of town which you say you

24 assume the shot came from when the three of you were walking was under the

25 control of the army of Republika Srpska. Is that correct?

Page 5832

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Did you also confirm that the part of town you were walking along

3 was under the control of the BH army? Is that also correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Can you confirm that in the part of town called Alipasino Polje

6 where you lived, yourself, that there was the BH army there, that it was

7 located there?

8 A. I could see them individually, but I couldn't see groups. I

9 didn't see groups of them. Just individually, I would see a soldier here

10 and there when they were coming and going. But that there was a

11 headquarters or a group, I didn't see that. I don't know.

12 Q. You told us that on that particular day, you set off towards

13 Dobrinja to go for a walk. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct. I went towards Dobrinja, but we didn't go

15 right there. But at the turning point going into town following the tram,

16 that's where we went to. We went as far as that. We didn't go further

17 on. But we were facing the direction of Dobrinja, that's right.

18 Q. While you were living in the apartment at that time, and when I

19 say that time and period, I'm talking about 1992, between 1992 and 1994

20 when you took up residence there, did you happen to learn that in

21 Dobrinja, the 5th Motorised Brigade had been set up there, had been

22 stationed there?

23 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know.

24 Q. During that period of time, did you happen to learn that at

25 Alipasino Polje, in the part you lived in, the headquarters of three

Page 5833

1 battalions were located belonging to the 5th Motorised Brigade?

2 A. I'm not aware of that, no.

3 Q. Can you confirm that in that part of town, and I'm speaking of

4 Alipasino Polje and the part of town called Nedzarici, whether during that

5 period of time in that part of town there was any fighting?

6 A. I do know that. I am aware of that because there was a lot of

7 shooting. So that is correct.

8 Q. Do you then confirm that there was fighting between the army of

9 Republika Srpska and the BH army? Is that right?

10 A. As far as I know, that was what it was, but I wasn't with them so

11 I can't say. But I do know that they were shooting at each other. Now

12 who actually did the shooting, I don't know.

13 Q. Can you tell us, please -- can you confirm that the part of the

14 street called Alija Branko Bujic which you took to go for your walk,

15 looking towards the students hostel that you identified and indicated on

16 the photograph, was that part of town protected with barricades of any

17 kind?

18 A. I don't know. I can't say.

19 Q. Did you ever, during 1992, 1993, and 1994, during that period of

20 time, in that particular street in relation to the students hostel, both

21 of them, did you ever see any barricades erected there?

22 A. No, I didn't see that.

23 Q. So what you're saying, what you're telling us, is that you did not

24 see, you never saw any barricades in the Alije Branko Bujic Street?

25 A. Never. Because we didn't dare walk around there, because there

Page 5834

1 was some army there and we always avoided walking in that direction. And

2 on that particular day, we got pretty close and we got what we got.

3 Q. Can you confirm that on the 6th of May, 2001, you gave a statement

4 to the investigators of the Prosecution? Can you confirm that?

5 A. Which year did you say?

6 Q. 2001.

7 A. I don't know what statement you mean. You would have to tell me

8 what you're referring to.

9 Q. It is the statement which you gave on the 6th of May while talking

10 to the investigators of the Prosecution. That's the one I mean. Do you

11 remember talking to some people who introduced themselves as such on the

12 6th of May, 2001?

13 A. Well, I think so. I can't remember the exact date, but that I

14 gave a statement, that is true.

15 Q. Can you confirm that everything you said in your statement is

16 correct and true? Everything you told the investigators of the

17 Prosecution.

18 A. Yes, it is correct.

19 Q. Now, if I read portions of your statement to you, would you be

20 able to confirm that they are true? And I'm going to quote a passage from

21 your statement dated the 6th of May. It is Document 0302-27638, and it is

22 paragraph 5 on page 2 of the B/C/S version. "We used to take walks in

23 this way before and we never thought that somebody was going to shoot us

24 there. It wasn't sheltered from the snipers, but we hadn't been shot at

25 before in this spot. The front line was about 200 metres away."

Page 5835

1 Is that correct what I've just read out?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. You're welcome.

5 Q. On that particular day, the day that you say you cannot actually

6 say what day it was exactly, but that you think it was April, can you give

7 us the year? What year do you think it was?

8 A. I can't remember exactly, whether it was 1993 perhaps or -- well,

9 I assume it was 1993, but I can't say for certain.

10 Q. You told us that the three of you were walking abreast, in a line

11 abreast. You were one next to the other?

12 A. Yes, that's right, abreast.

13 Q. Can you tell us, please, at the time the two of your friends were

14 hit, that is to say Mr. Franjic and Vucic, what position were they in at

15 that moment? Because you said that you had given assistance to both of

16 them, so what position were they in?

17 A. We were on the pavement abreast of each other, walking in a line.

18 Q. Yes. Can you tell us, at the time the two of your friends were

19 hit, Ivan Franjic, that is, and the late Vucic, what position were they in

20 when you were trying to help them? How far away from each other were they

21 when they were hit and you were helping them?

22 A. We were on the pavement, all of us, so we were all next to each

23 other, body up against body, right next to each other. I can't say

24 exactly, but I think we were touching each other, sort of next to each

25 other, one body next to another, and walking that way.

Page 5836

1 Q. Do you confirm, and I think that you said that during the

2 examination-in-chief, that you didn't hear the actual shots?

3 A. Correct, we didn't hear them. We didn't feel anything until we

4 were actually wounded, or they were wounded.

5 Q. You told us yesterday when my learned colleague was asking

6 questions, and it was at 11.39, the time was 11.39, you said that a woman

7 and a man helped you. Is that correct?

8 A. Correct, from the Ante Babica building, from that settlement, they

9 saw the two men fall down. And I tried to help Ivan. I couldn't help the

10 other one because he fell and asked for help, but I couldn't because I was

11 busy with Franjic. And when I sent him off to Dobrinja, I tried to help

12 Vucic, too. And I asked the people that were going by in a car to

13 transport Vucic to hospital, but he didn't live for long afterwards. And

14 he died. But the other man survived.

15 Q. So Mr. Kapetanovic, you are confirming here and now that you

16 personally helped both Mr. Franjic and the late Mr. Vucic, and that you

17 sent them off in cars to hospitals, that you stopped the cars and had them

18 transported?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Can you tell us, the man who helped you, the man who came out to

21 help you, did he bring you a bandage, too?

22 A. Yes, he did.

23 Q. Can you tell us, how was he dressed, if you remember?

24 A. As far as I can remember, he was just a simple civilian who came

25 to help us. Whether he was on the ground floor in that building and saw

Page 5837

1 the two men had fallen and that I was trying to help them - he must have

2 seen that - and he brought some bandages and pieces of cloth so that we

3 could bandage Franjic's stomach, as it had been shot through and his

4 intestines were about to fall out.

5 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, after you helped your friends, and if you did,

6 who did you report the incident to?

7 A. Truth to tell, I did not make any statements. But when I called

8 Franjic's family, his wife and his daughter, I told them that this had

9 happened, that he was in the hospital, and then perhaps on the basis of

10 that, they tried to report it. I didn't report it anywhere.

11 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, that day when the incident happened, did you have

12 any contact with the police of the BH army?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you that day at that time, as you walked, as you were having

15 your walk, did you see in your immediate vicinity - and when I say your

16 immediate vicinity, I mean yours and Mr. Franjic's and the late

17 Augustin's - did you see any police?

18 A. I did not see them. I did not see anyone in the vicinity. I

19 would have sought their help had I seen anyone. I would have sought help,

20 asked them to help my friends.

21 Q. Mr. Franjic [sic], if I tell you that on the 18th of February, a

22 policeman testified in this Court who claimed that he was the one who had

23 helped late Augustin and Ivan, can you tell us if that is correct?

24 A. I don't know that.

25 Q. Mr. Franjic -- Kapetanovic. My apologies. The policeman who was

Page 5838

1 -- who testified on the 18th of February, during the

2 examination-in-chief before this Chamber, when asked by my learned friend,

3 stated that he and a friend of his, who was also a policeman, had heard

4 two shots.

5 A. I did not hear them, and I therefore cannot say that I did.

6 Q. The gentleman policeman who testified said that with his friend,

7 who was another policeman, had hailed a car, the first, and put in that

8 car late Augustin first. Is that correct?

9 A. No, it is not correct.

10 Q. If I tell you that this policeman stated that he had extended

11 assistance to Ivan Franjic and hailed another car, taken his particulars

12 and put him in the car, would that be correct?

13 A. I do not remember. The first car we stopped, we put Ivan in that

14 car. And I believe it was a Golf, if I remember correctly. And we

15 dispatched him to Dobrinja. And it was only then that we tried to hail

16 another car so as to -- because Augustin had sustained more severe injury,

17 and we were looking for another car to send him to Kosevo, and that is

18 what we did.

19 Q. So you are telling us that at the moment when both Ivan and late

20 Vucic were injured, that no policeman was with you there?

21 A. I did not see any. Perhaps there was one on the other side, but I

22 did not see him. Perhaps. Perhaps there was somebody watching, but I

23 don't know.

24 Q. So you are telling us that the statement of a policeman who

25 testified before this Chamber, that it was he and his friend, another

Page 5839

1 policeman, who helped Ivan Franjic and late Augustincic [sic], that that

2 is not correct?

3 A. I did not notice that. Perhaps at that moment, I was beside

4 myself because I had suffered the stress and all this had happened. So I

5 did not see him by then. Perhaps I simply wasn't myself right at that

6 moment.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

9 MR. IERACE: I think I understood my learned colleague to put to

10 this witness that Mr. Dziho gave evidence to this Trial Chamber on the

11 18th of February to the effect that the first of the men that they

12 assisted was Augustin and the second was Ivan. I think that appears at

13 page 23, line 3, in the English transcript. That's in relation to the

14 proposition being put to the witness that the first person I assisted was

15 Augustin. My friend then said, "Is that correct?" And the witness

16 replied, "No, that is not correct. My friend then went on to say, in

17 effect, that the second person assisted was Ivan Franjic. He then

18 asked, "Is that correct?" And the witness replied, "I do not remember."

19 I refer my friend to the transcript of the evidence of Mr. Dziho.

20 The English transcript --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please refer to the page and the line, Mr.

22 Ierace, so that I can follow you.

23 MR. IERACE: Unfortunately, the only copy I have in hard copy

24 refers to it as page 6, which is not the Microsoft Word copy.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but page 6 would be the sixth page from the

Page 5840

1 beginning, so that helps me.

2 MR. IERACE: On that page, Mr. Dziho talks about the first person

3 they assisted, and then at line 7 he was asked: "Were you obtain from the

4 man any information, including his name?" Page 11, he replies -- line 11,

5 he replies, "Ivan Franjic." He goes on to explain that they stopped a car

6 and put him in it. And line 21, he says that when the car left with this

7 first injured person, he was then informed that there was another injured

8 person. Mr. Dziho then attended that person, and going over the page, put

9 him in a vehicle. And he was asked the name of that second person, and at

10 line 18 on page 7, he says, "I think Augustin Vucic."

11 So it seems that what my learned colleague has put to the witness

12 is not only inconsistent with the evidence, at least at that point, but

13 the opposite. And what she -- what appears in the transcript is, in fact,

14 consistent with the recollection of the witness. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will resolve

17 the problem by rephrasing the question to the witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, can you tell us, of your two friends, the two

21 friends who were injured that day, which one of them did you help first,

22 stop the car to take him to the hospital? Was it Mr. Ivan or late

23 Augustin?

24 A. It was Mr. Ivan Franjic, the first one. And only after that,

25 after we had sent Ivan on his way, then we set out helping Vucic, because

Page 5841

1 he was much more severely injured and he couldn't move.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kapetanovic.

3 A. Not at all.

4 Q. If I tell you that if Mr. Fuad Dziho, who testified on the 18th of

5 February, stated that it was in the afternoon when they were present at

6 the time of the incident, can you then tell us which of the two statements

7 is correct, that it was in the morning as you said, or in the afternoon?

8 A. As far as I remember, it was in the morning between 10.00 and

9 11.00. I cannot tell you the exact time, but it was thereabouts. That is

10 what I think.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kapetanovic, you told us that you extended

12 assistance to Mr. Ivan Franjic. You confirmed for us that at the moment

13 when you were extending this help, that you did not see the policeman. Is

14 that correct?

15 A. I did not see him. That man who came up, I did not see him in a

16 uniform, the one who helped. Whether he was a policeman or something, I

17 don't know, but he was wearing civilian clothes, the man who helped me.

18 Q. Are you confirming to us that you bandaged the wound with a

19 bandage that you were given, that you bandaged Ivan Franjic's wound?

20 A. No, I didn't do it all by myself, but together with the man who

21 helped me, the two of us.

22 Q. You are telling us that this man was in civilian clothes?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, I will now show you the statement of

25 Ivan Franjic, who was examined on the 21st of November, 1995, page 2 of

Page 5842

1 translation in Serbian. The document is 0090-6702.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE: My friend, according to the English transcript, has

4 put to the witness that Mr. Franjic was examined on that date. He was not

5 examined on that date, but he made a statement. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the way we understood it. Of course

7 there was no Court session.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think I said 21st of November,

9 1995, that he made his statement which I've already used, quoting from it.

10 And I will quote again. Part of Mr. Ivan Franjic's statement which refers

11 to that incident at the time when he was injured, he said -- so it is the

12 fifth passage, line 4.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel read it slowly because the

14 interpreters do not have the text. Could the counsel either please put

15 the text on the ELMO or start again because the interpreters were not

16 given this text.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could you either read it very slowly,

18 since you did not provide the interpreters with a hard copy of what you're

19 quoting, or put it on the ELMO so that they can follow it? I think if

20 it's not too long, slow reading goes -- takes less time.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will read it

22 slowly. But Mr. Franjic, I gave Mr. Ivan Franjic's statement to

23 interpreters team for all the three booths.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If that is true, then of course I have to withdraw,

25 yes. I see that it's confirmed.

Page 5843

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. But I'll read it now

2 slowly: "And then some policemen ran up to me and noticed that I had been

3 wounded. They bandaged my wound. They took me to a car, and then to the

4 hospital at Dobrinja. I did not see either Augustin or Marko."

5 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, can you confirm for us what is true?

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

8 A. It's quite correct that he helped to bandage his wound and we put

9 him in a car and asked the driver to take him to Dobrinja. That is

10 correct. Did I see those policemen? I saw a man who helped me bandage

11 him, but that was it.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE: The witness has indeed already said that the man who

14 provided assistance wasn't in a uniform. There is nothing in the passage

15 that has been read to the witness from the statement of Ivan Franjic to

16 the effect explicitly that the policeman was in a uniform. When my friend

17 says to the witness, "which is correct," my friend should make clear to

18 the witness if she is saying to the witness that Mr. Dziho was in a

19 uniform, and if so, where does that evidence come from?

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, your question suggests that there was

22 a contradiction between the statement given by Mr. Franjic and what the

23 witness testified. As indicated by Mr. Ierace, that, as it stands now, is

24 not the case. So for the reasons he gave, would you first clarify that

25 before confronting the witness with a suggestion that there's a

Page 5844

1 contradiction. Of course, we have not seen the whole statement of

2 Mr. Franjic but what source makes him believe and what quality someone

3 assisted him does not become clear from the part you read. So to that

4 extent, the objection is sustained.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour -- Your Honour, when I

6 asked him, the witness said --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, perhaps we put off the earphones of

8 Mr. Kapetanovic when you would like to add something.

9 Ms. Philpott, could you please for a moment remove the headphones

10 from Mr. Kapetanovic.

11 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. During my

13 cross-examination, Mr. Kapetanovic told us that in that part of the city,

14 there were police and that the police had uniforms and that they

15 invariably wore them. He also explained to us that policemen were

16 uniformed persons.

17 The second problem which arises is whether at the time when Ivan

18 and Augustin were injured, there was somebody next to them. Yesterday, it

19 was at 11.42 to 11.40, and he was asked whether there was anybody else

20 besides there. The answer was no, nobody. Today, once again, when I

21 asked him, he confirmed that there were no policemen in his presence. So

22 the Defence takes it that the witness distinguishes between a person who

23 is in uniform and a person who may be a policeman but is not wearing a

24 uniform. Today, when asked, he confirmed once again that the person who

25 gave him the bandage was a civilian, bearing in mind Mr. Franjic's

Page 5845

1 statement given to OTP investigators, which I showed to Mr. Kapetanovic

2 and who was very clear about it, "and then some policemen ran up to me and

3 noticed that I had been wounded."

4 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt you, the contradiction seems to

5 be, in your view, that where Mr. Franjic identifies the person as a

6 policeman, that this witness does not. But the statement of Mr. Franjic

7 gives no information, as far as it has been read to us, as far as how he

8 knew that this was a policeman. It could have been told to him on the way

9 to hospital. It could have been told to him later. So that's the first

10 observation I make.

11 The second observation is that wasn't the testimony of Mr. Dziho

12 that he was a reserve policeman, who was not belonging to the police

13 forces before the war. I think he was then a social worker or something

14 like that. And that he then as a reserve policeman joined the police

15 force, which, of course, may be of relevance as far as the conclusions

16 you're drawing from the testimony of the witness, that policemen would

17 wear uniforms.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The reserve --

19 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore the contradiction, as you suggested to

20 the witness, does not follow from what you've read, neither does it follow

21 from the testimony the witness has been given until now. That's the

22 reason why I asked to you to clarify the issue first before putting any

23 suggestion that there's a contradiction between the statement of Mr.

24 Franjic and the testimony of the witness.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all I have to say is

Page 5846

1 that Mr. Dziho during the examination-in-chief and testimony before this

2 Tribunal said that the reserve police force had uniforms. Therefore,

3 Mr. Dziho confirmed for us that the reserve police force wore uniforms and

4 he also confirmed that he had been issued with a semi-automatic rifle

5 which he always had with him. I do not have the transcript before me, and

6 I therefore cannot quote you exactly the part of the statement.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see whether there's any talk about

8 uniforms in the statement of Mr. Dziho. One moment, please.

9 Would that be on the 18th of February?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: My search on the word "uniform" on the 18th of

12 February doesn't give any result. But of course it might be that the ...

13 Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I also had conducted a search with the

15 same negative result. I note the time, and my point is simply, as you

16 have expressed, that he was a reserve policeman. I don't recollect at

17 this point whether he said anything about the wearing of uniforms or not.

18 Perhaps in the interest of saving time, we could check during the break.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps that's a good suggestion. Let me just

20 see whether the evidence of Mr. Dziho continued on the 19th.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If I may take the liberty,

24 what I find here, are we talking about the page 3800 onward? Referring to

25 the statement of the 18th of February.

Page 5847

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check. The testimony of Mr. Dziho

2 starts -- let me just have a look. On the 18th of February, we first had

3 another witness and then --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Because we see the word

5 "uniform," but in English, it seems that it is in plural. Excuse me, let

6 me check my system here. I'll find it.

7 What I found, I found this word "uniform" in plural, line 14 on

8 page 3880, but we shall continue searching.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the testimony of Mr. Dziho commences on

10 page 3901, so if there was --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will check that.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- On the pages before, it must have been for other

13 witnesses. If you would please check that during the break, then I'll

14 first get in touch with Sarajevo again. At least with Mr. Kapetanovic.

15 Ms. Philpott, could you please put the headphones back again.

16 Mr. Kapetanovic, we had a small legal technical problem, and we'll

17 try to resolve that during the break, during the next half an hour. So

18 your cross-examination will be resumed by counsel for the Defence at

19 11.00, and we'll have a break until then.

20 If I may invite the parties -- Ms. Philpott, if you'd please

21 escort the witness out of the videoroom. Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The line is 3921 to 25 -- [In

23 English] line is 25.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat the page.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] 3921, the line is 25. And here it

Page 5848

1 seems we could find the word "uniforms" in English, with a plural, "S."

2 JUDGE ORIE: I see it in the plural. Usually my computer also

3 gives a result if I ask for the ...

4 I see the word "uniform" in relation ... "That was after 1992,

5 and what kind of weapons did you have?" "I had a long barrel, ammunition,

6 and uniforms." That's what I read on this line. I'd like to have a look

7 at it in the context of the whole testimony, and if we all use the break

8 for that, then --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] [No Interpretation]

10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then have a break until 11.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interests of saving time, I

15 withdraw the objection. Secondly, in relation to what my learned

16 colleague, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, said this morning, just briefly on that

17 topic, the other day the Prosecution handed up the two original documents

18 of the letter of discharge. Mr. President, if they are still with you,

19 might they be returned to the Prosecution so that we can arrange for the

20 retranslations to be done. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You mean to say the original copies of the documents.

22 MR. IERACE: Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They may be returned to you. We didn't have a

24 look at it, to be quite honest, until now. One is a -- it seems to be

25 approximately the same document as before.

Page 5849

1 Madam Registrar, would you please give it to the usher so

2 that -- yes.

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I fear

5 that I have been misunderstood once again by the Prosecution. That was

6 probably because I didn't express myself properly. Not to have the

7 documents retranslated, but to tell us why one document does not contain

8 what it contains in the other. So the translations plus the explanation,

9 that will be what I will be waiting for.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I didn't understand that this was

11 the response of the Prosecution. So let's just first wait until they give

12 some kind of an explanation, and let's then see whether there's any need

13 to continue any debate on that.

14 Well, since your objections have been withdrawn, Ms. Pilipovic, I

15 think we could resume the cross-examination. Let me just confer.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, to avoid whatever misunderstanding, the

18 Chamber expects an explanation rather soon, let me say it this way; I

19 would say one of the coming days.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, because the translation was done by

21 the translation, which as I understand it is not part of the OTP, it will

22 be necessary for us to, in turn, make an inquiry of the translation unit

23 as to how that translation could have come in the form that it did. Thank

24 you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was my understanding as well, that you need

Page 5850

1 some time to investigate what actually happened.

2 Ms. Pilipovic, I see you're ready to resume the cross-examination,

3 or do you want to bring anything else to the attention of the Chamber?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence is just

5 concerned, because of the time that is being taken from the

6 cross-examination with objections and comments from my learned colleague,

7 and I think time is valuable to us. We have wasted quite a bit of time

8 discussing the objection, but I am ready for the cross-examination to

9 continue. Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, of course we'll always consider the

11 actual way the examination or cross-examination was done. But I'm glad

12 that the Defence is well aware of how objections can damage the course of

13 an examination.

14 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic. We'll first check whether the

15 witness is in the videoroom in Sarajevo.

16 Ms. Philpott, could you please escort the witness into the

17 videoroom.

18 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kapetanovic, counsel for the Defence will

20 continue cross-examining you.

21 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, before the break, I was referring to the

24 statement by Mr. Ivan Franjic, and from it we were able to conclude that

25 Mr. Ivan Franjic in his statement states that he did not see you at the

Page 5851

1 point at which he was wounded. Is that correct?

2 A. It is not correct.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

4 A. When I assisted --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: In spite of my reluctance to object, I must object to

7 that question. That is not the evidence -- that is not the contents of

8 the passage of Mr. Franjic's statement that was read to the witness.

9 Mr. Franjic did not in that passage say that he did not see

10 Mr. Kapetanovic at the point at which he was wounded. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the lines you read -- I will try to

12 find them. Just trying to find the lines where you're quoting the

13 statement of Mr. Franjic. I found it. I have it.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You read to the witness: "And then some policemen

16 ran up to me and noticed that I had been wounded. They bandaged my

17 wound. They took me to a car, and then to the hospital in Dobrinja. I

18 did not see either Augustin or Marko."

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the witness might remove his

20 headphones.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Philpott, could you please remove the

22 headphones from Mr. Kapetanovic.

23 Yes, please.

24 MR. IERACE: My learned colleague well knows that in the preceding

25 paragraphs of Mr. Franjic's statement, the account is given that the three

Page 5852

1 men were walking together "when I was shot." And therefore to put this

2 proposition to the witness is not only contrary to the passage that was

3 read, but contrary to the contents of the statement. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we may start out from

6 the premise that the three people were walking and that Mr. Franjic said

7 that in his statement. Now, we come to the witness's credibility,

8 Mr. Kapetanovic's in fact, at the point in time when both these two men

9 were injured, wounded, whether he was present, especially in view of Dziho

10 Fuad's testimony who was heard before this Tribunal. He made no

11 mention during his testimony or in his statement that Mr. Marko was in

12 fact present. And during my cross-examination, I did ask Mr. Marko

13 whether he contacted on that day with any official and whether he reported

14 the incident to anybody. So the question arises as to whether Mr. Marko

15 was actually present at the actual time, at the material time, when

16 Mr. Ivan and Mr. Augustin were injured. So we have to ascertain who is

17 telling the truth.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

19 MR. IERACE: What my learned colleague has said fails completely

20 to respond to my objection, which is simply that she has misrepresented

21 the statement of Mr. Franjic to the witness.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, as far as we understand, without

23 having read the statement of Mr. Franjic, and since you did not deny a

24 part of the factual basis of the objection of Mr. Ierace, I do understand

25 that the statement of Mr. Franjic says that they were walking together,

Page 5853

1 the three men, but that at least at a later stage, after he said he was

2 taken to Dobrinja hospital, "I didn't see the other two." So we have

3 three stages. The first is the moment of walking before the incident;

4 then the incident and the assistance; and then the later stage where those

5 injured or killed were taken away from the spot of the incident.

6 Would you please make quite clear in your questioning to the

7 witness, and also if you're referring to other statements or other

8 testimony, what moment you're talking about.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And to that extent, the objection is sustained.

11 Ms. Philpott, could you please replace the headphones for

12 Mr. Kapetanovic.

13 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr Kapetanovic, at the moment when Ivan and Augustin were wounded,

16 at that particular moment, do you confirm that you, yourself, helped Ivan,

17 gave assistance to Ivan, and that you bandaged his wound? Do you confirm

18 that? Is that true?

19 A. It is true, correct.

20 Q. If I put it to you that Mr. Ivan said that some policeman ran up

21 to him and noticed that he was wounded and bandaged his wound, what would

22 you say was true? Is what you're telling us the truth, or is what we see

23 in the statement of the 21st of November, 1995, as stated by Mr. Franjic

24 true? Who dressed or bandaged his wound?

25 A. It is true that a man in civilian clothing came up who helped me

Page 5854

1 bandage Ivan Franjic's wound. That is the truth. I can't say something

2 that I don't know.

3 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, thank you.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

5 like to have the witness shown the 360-degree electronically-joined

6 photograph, 3280U. It is the Prosecution exhibit.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we need the assistance of the case

8 manager. I see that she is preparing.

9 Ms. Philpott, could you please confirm when the not-yet moving

10 part of the 360-degrees photograph appears on your screen in Sarajevo.

11 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] We do have the image now, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I couldn't hear you, Ms. Philpott.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] We have the image on the screen now,

15 Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, can you see part of the Alija Branko Bujic

19 Street, and looking at it from the right-hand side, you can see the

20 students hostel.

21 A. No, I don't. You would have to zoom in towards the right for the

22 Branko Bujic Street to be visible.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you pan it, please, to the

24 right. Thank you. Stop.

25 Q. Now, is that the beginning of the Alija Branko Bujic Street?

Page 5855

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kapetanovic, can you tell us, please, the

3 elevation that can be seen at the end of the street, looking at it from

4 our angle of vision? Could you tell us what part of town that is? Is

5 that Buljatov Potok?

6 A. It could be, but it's lower down. Buljakov Potok and the lower

7 part of Buljakov Potok, it is to my right as I look at the screen, a

8 little lower down.

9 Q. And What about the hilly part, the elevation, what's that called,

10 if you can say?

11 A. Well, that hill -- I've forgotten.

12 Q. Is it Brijesce Brdo or Brijesce hill?

13 A. Well, Brijesce Brdo is a higher hill joining this elevation, but I

14 can't remember the name of this particular elevation.

15 Q. Can you -- do you claim or can you tell us that this -- whether

16 this part, the one that we see on the photograph that you said the lower

17 part of which is Buljakov Potok, that that part of town was under the

18 control of the BH army. Is that right?

19 A. I can't claim that. I don't know.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] May we now pan further to the

21 right in the direction of Dobrinja.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The other way around, the reserve.

23 Pan backwards and then go to Branko Bujic Street. A little more. A bit

24 more. That's it. Stop.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] May we go right again to see the

Page 5856

1 direction of the street?

2 A. Well, yes, a little more to the right.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the Defence might

4 be permitted, may we ask the technicians to pan to the right so that we

5 have Alija Branko Bujic Street on our screens?

6 JUDGE ORIE: You can ask those who are technically assisting us to

7 the right or to the left, but not to specific streets --

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] A little more to the right then.

9 Right, please. A bit more, please. Right. [In English] Stop.

10 [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, is this Alija Branko Bujic Street and the

12 direction you were moving in towards Dobrinja?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you confirm that in the buildings that we

15 see to your left, on the left-hand side of the screen, that those are

16 buildings which belonged to Alipasino Polje. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Can you confirm that in the buildings that we see on the left-hand

19 side, the first buildings, on the ground floor where the office premises

20 were, that soldiers of the BH army were located there?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] May we now pan to the right again,

24 further to the right, please. Stop.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kapetanovic, looking at this photograph, can

Page 5857

1 you confirm the fact that this part of the street in which you would be

2 moving towards Dobrinja is at a higher elevation compared -- is higher

3 than the part of the building which is, in fact, the students centre? Is

4 the road or street slightly raised?

5 A. Yes, it is a little raised, a little higher.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, we're looking at the students hostel building.

7 Can you tell us, during the conflict in 1992, 1993, and 1994, who used the

8 building? Who was the building used by? Do you happen to know that?

9 A. I don't know. But all I know is that there were no students there

10 at that time.

11 Q. Do you happen to know that the army was in that building?

12 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know.

13 Q. Can you confirm that in the -- on the building where we see the

14 windows looking at us, facing us, that on the other side of the building

15 opposite these windows, there are also buildings and rooms facing the

16 other way?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you answer the following: In view of the fact that you have

19 confirmed the existence of damages on this building - you have said that -

20 how was the building damaged and how were the buildings damaged, looking

21 at the building from our angle of vision?

22 A. I couldn't say. I don't know.

23 Q. Can you confirm that the building, the opposite side of the

24 building, you said that there were windows on that opposite side, too, and

25 rooms as well, that that other opposite side of the building was damaged,

Page 5858

1 too. Did you see that?

2 A. Yes, it was damaged.

3 Q. Do you confirm that on this building, both the windows facing us

4 and the windows facing the other side were all damaged?

5 A. Yes, it was the same.

6 Q. Can you also confirm that the walls of this building facing the

7 other side where you say there were windows, that the walls were damaged,

8 too?

9 A. Yes, partially. Not very much, but yes, they were.

10 Q. When you say "partially," what part of the building were the walls

11 damaged, looking at the side of the building that we see on the

12 photograph?

13 A. No, the other side of the building, the opposite side. You could

14 see some damage on the opposite side of the building.

15 Q. And what about the side we're facing, facing us, was there any

16 damage there?

17 A. It was just the windows that were damaged. The windows were

18 shattered, the glass was broken of the windows.

19 Q. All right. So you're saying this side, this side that we're

20 facing, it's only the windows that were broken and not the walls?

21 A. Yes, that's right, not the walls. As we could see it, the walls

22 were not damaged. But on the opposite side, the wall was damaged, too.

23 Q. When you say you saw that later on, when was it that you saw it?

24 Was it in 1992, 1993, 1994, within that time frame or after that?

25 A. In 1993, late 1993.

Page 5859

1 Q. So you are confirming for us that in late 1993, you saw broken

2 windows on this building?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And you are confirming that the walls of this building were not

5 damaged, are you?

6 A. As far as I know, I do not think we saw any damage done to those

7 walls. But I wasn't particularly keen on establishing that.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We should like to show the witness

10 3279OA, please. Can we have that shown to the witness.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you like to be shown in Sarajevo or --

12 Ms. Pilipovic?

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, could you please assist us.

15 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] I believe that is Prosecution number

16 P3279OB.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, there is a marked copy available

18 in Sarajevo, in colour, at this moment. I don't know whether the marking

19 bothers you or not.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, then. Yes, Your

21 Honour. I just have one more question while we still have this photograph

22 on the screen. The witness can see it.

23 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, can you see these cars and vehicles there?

24 A. No, I don't have this photograph any more.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, there is one additional question by

Page 5860

1 Ms. Pilipovic concerning the 360-degrees photograph. Could you please

2 confirm that that is on the screen in front of Mr. Kapetanovic.

3 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] We now have it on the screen again,

4 Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, these vehicles and these cars and trucks that are

8 here, do they hide from view the street leading to military cemetery,

9 Vojnicko Polje and Nedzarici?

10 A. Yes, right here, right now, they do. But they are not always

11 there.

12 Q. So you are confirming that behind these trucks in the direction of

13 the students hostel, there is a street leading towards Vojnicko Polje and

14 Nedzarici. Is that it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us the name of that street?

17 A. Branko Bujic.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

20 like the photograph 3279 to be shown to the witness.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, could you please put on the ELMO in

22 Sarajevo P3279OB. That is the colour version.

23 Ms. Pilipovic, I see that it is on the ELMO in Sarajevo. Please

24 proceed.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 5861

1 Now, if the photograph can be zoomed off so that we have the whole

2 photograph. Can it be zoomed off so that we can see the whole

3 photograph? Thank you.

4 Q. Witness, can you indicate on this photograph the place where you

5 were at the moment when Mr. Ivan and Mr. Augustin and you, in your belt,

6 as you say, were hit?

7 A. [indicates]

8 Q. Will you please use the black marker to mark the spot where you

9 were standing.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Can you make a circle and write number 1.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Yesterday, during the direct examination, is that the place

14 where you tell us today that is the place where you were standing?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the transcript,

17 the witness has marked on the photograph a circle and put "1" in Alija

18 Branko Bujic Street at the bottom of this photograph, in the middle.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the sake of the record, Ms. Pilipovic, we

20 can see, and if the document will be admitted in evidence, everyone will

21 see where the circle and the "1" is. On what street it is, is of course

22 not -- is a different question. So I think as soon as there's a clear

23 marking on a photograph, for the sake of the transcript, it's not

24 necessary to indicate that. Describing where someone is pointing at is of

25 importance, since there are no traces remaining. But if it's not marked,

Page 5862

1 it's not necessary, and it's especially not necessary to add something

2 which is not visible, and that is the name of the street.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, at that spot which you have just marked and as the spot

5 where you were at that point in time, are you confirming for us that all

6 three of you were right there at that time?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Can you tell us, at the time when you were injured, how far were

9 you away from the pedestrian crossing?

10 A. It could have been about 10 metres perhaps.

11 Q. Thank you. Witness, from the direction, from the place that you

12 marked as a place where you were injured, that is, that Mr. Ivan and late

13 Augustin sustained the injuries, can you take a pencil, draw a line to

14 mark the direction from which, as you say, you assume that the shots were

15 fired?

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Can you take the marker to indicate the direction to, as you say,

18 blind people's home, because you said you assumed that the shots had been

19 fired from there.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And further on, Mr. Kapetanovic, right up to the place which you

22 said was the blind people's home.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic -- just a moment. Let me see.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the whole photograph

Page 5863

1 on the ELMO. Can it be zoomed off so that we have the whole photograph.

2 And a bit further off. Thank you.

3 Q. Witness, in the right corner of the photograph, we see a crossing,

4 a pedestrian crossing. Is that correct? Is that true?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. In the corner, in the right corner of the photograph at the

7 bottom, we also see a roof of a building which you, yesterday, when asked

8 by my learned friend, showed to us and identified as the roof belonging to

9 that small building on the corner. Can you point at this part of the roof

10 at the bottom of the photograph.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. I'm talking at the bottom of the photograph, to the right. Right

13 down at the bottom to the right, where the pedestrian crossing is. At the

14 bottom of the photograph, Mr. Kapetanovic.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. No. Right. Right where the corner of the photograph is. Far

17 right, where you have a car. Move right, and further on and down, right,

18 down, at the bottom. Mr. Kapetanovic, at the bottom of the photograph.

19 Can you hear me? Right down at the bottom of the photograph, there is a

20 pedestrian crossing. Right down there. There is a pedestrian crossing.

21 Mr. Kapetanovic, down there at the bottom.

22 A. You mean at the bottom?

23 Q. Yes, Mr. Kapetanovic.

24 A. Here, you mean?

25 Q. Yes. Is that the pedestrian crossing that you crossed to proceed

Page 5864

1 with your walk down Branko Bujic Street?

2 A. But we were not having our walk along Branko Bujic Street. We

3 were walking along Ante Babica Street.

4 Q. My apology. But is that the pedestrian crossing that you crossed?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. Thank you. At the bottom, to the left, when you move to the left,

7 can you see the roof of a building which is there on the corner? Can you

8 see that roof down there? You identified it yesterday.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. Right down there. Next to that pedestrian crossing that you

11 marked as the -- at the crossing that you had crossed. Right down there

12 at the bottom?

13 A. Yes, this.

14 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, you indicated yesterday that this was the spot

15 where you were at the moment when fire was opened on you. Is that true?

16 A. No, not there. But where I marked the place as number 1, that is

17 where we were, on the pavement.

18 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, yesterday, on the videotape that my colleague --

19 that my learned friend showed you during his examination, where you stood

20 and marked as a place which was marked in yellow as a place where you were

21 standing at the moment when you were hit, and that is the place as you

22 crossed the pedestrian crossing where this small building is, and it is in

23 the videotape. We can show that tape to you.

24 A. The photo, yes, that tape shows it best. The tape on which I

25 point at the place where we were.

Page 5865

1 Q. And if I tell you that the place which you now pointed at where

2 this small building is, will you agree -- will you confirm that it is the

3 house that you see on the videotape?

4 A. Right in front of that small building is where that happened.

5 Q. Can you then mark the place where you see the roof where that

6 small building is at the bottom of the photograph. Can you mark it.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Can you put number 2 there, please, just above that roof.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, can you, in relation to that place which you have

11 just marked with number 2 and which you indicated on the videotape as the

12 place where you were standing, can you indicate the direction from which

13 the shots were fired at the moment when your friends were injured? And

14 will you draw a line towards the blind people's home from this spot, from

15 number 2.

16 A. I cannot do this because I do not know if the bullets came

17 directly from there. We didn't -- since we didn't hear the shots or

18 anything, we only knew that we were hit. Secondly, I cannot claim from

19 where that bullet reached us. I cannot really affirm that with any

20 certainty.

21 Q. So you are telling us that you do not know from which direction

22 the shots were fired?

23 A. It is my assumption that they came from the blind people's home.

24 Q. But in relation to number 2 that you had just marked, can you draw

25 a line in the direction of the blind people's home if we assume that, in

Page 5866

1 relation to the place number 2, the shots were fired from the blind

2 people's home. Can you draw a line in the direction of the blind people's

3 home? From point number 2.

4 A. [Marks]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I'd just like to put to the parties

6 that I fully understand what your line of questioning is. I would have

7 expected a different line as well. We all had a line in our mind, I would

8 say, as an answer to that question. I think the Chamber has to establish

9 that this witness is not able to give consistent answers on questions in

10 relation to these -- to this photograph. If any of the parties would

11 disagree, I'd like to know now so that I would be in a position to give it

12 some reflection and to see what to do. But I think it's rather useless.

13 And since the examination of witnesses is under the guidance of the

14 Chamber, I'd just suggest that we not continue any more, not because your

15 questions are not important, but just because everyone may have noticed

16 now that answers to these questions are rather inconsistent.

17 I see Mr. Ierace is nodding as agreeing. This would be just as

18 well as this we were talking about yesterday, Mr. Ierace, as you might

19 notice.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In that vein,

21 the Defence will ask a question regarding Photograph 3 -- 3280, and we

22 have this one other question to the witness, and then a few more

23 questions, and that will be the end of our cross-examination.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please then proceed. The next --

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5867

1 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, Mr. Kapetanovic, do you see this photograph with

2 cars and a truck?

3 A. No, I don't.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You're talking about the 360 degrees? Yes.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now, I do.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, in the lower part of the photograph, the far

10 right corner of the photograph, do you see a building?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, so that there is not confusion at a

13 later point, perhaps I could just clarify the exhibit number of the

14 electronic photograph. My friend identified it as 3280. In fact, it's

15 327U. Thank you.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please then proceed.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, at the bottom of this photograph, at the far

20 right end, do you see a building in the distance?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. But if you can move -- pan to the right. If you can move the

23 photograph to the right, please. Stop.

24 Now, on this photograph, in the direction of the pedestrian

25 crossing straight ahead, can you see a building in the distance?

Page 5868

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. You do. Can you confirm whether this is the Oslobodjenje

3 building?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Can you confirm that the Oslobodjenje building during the

6 conflict, 1992, 1993, 1994, was controlled by the BH army?

7 A. I wouldn't know that.

8 Q. Are you -- do you have any knowledge about the police guarding

9 this building throughout the conflict in Sarajevo?

10 A. I wouldn't be able to say that.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kapetanovic, can you tell us what colour were the

12 jackets, the windjammers, that you were wearing that day, you and your

13 friends on that day?

14 A. No, I cannot say. It was just plain clothes. Whatever jackets

15 we had, we wore. I can't remember.

16 Q. Thank you. You said then that at that time -- at that time, a

17 cease-fire had been signed. Is that true?

18 A. I never claimed that, and I do not know that.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. The

20 Defence has concluded its cross-examination.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, does the Prosecution want to re-examine

22 the witness?

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, but very briefly.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

25 Mr. Kapetanovic, some more questions will be put to you now by

Page 5869

1 counsel for the Prosecution.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

4 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, during the questioning by my learned colleague,

5 she referred to Alija Branko Bujic Street. Is that the same street as

6 Ante Babica Street, or is that a different street?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you mean it is not the same street as Ante Babica Street?

9 A. No, it is not.

10 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, what street were you on when you and your two

11 friends were shot at and two of your friends were wounded?

12 A. I was in Ante Babica Street.

13 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown Photograph 3279OB, I think

14 it now is. That is the photograph in Sarajevo, from above.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I indicated to the Defence that

16 questioning on the basis of this photograph is a very difficult exercise.

17 I don't know what you're going to ask the witness about it, but could you

18 please save us from getting into the same trouble again while questioning

19 the witness.

20 Please proceed.


22 Q. Do you see on the photograph Ante Babica Street?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. Please point to it.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 5870

1 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates the street which runs parallel to

2 the bottom of the photograph. The street is positioned along the bottom

3 of the photograph.

4 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, do you see anywhere in the photograph Alija

5 Branko Bujic Street?

6 A. [Indicates]

7 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates street which intersects the street

8 identified as Ante Babica Street and runs parallel to the left side of the

9 photograph. Thank you.

10 No further questions, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

12 Mr. Kapetanovic, you gave your answers to all the questions of

13 both Prosecution and Defence. The Judges have no further questions to you

14 any more. I'd like to thank you very much for coming not only once but

15 even on a second day to come and testify and give information to the

16 parties and to the Chamber. Thank you very much.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, the witness may be escorted out of the

19 videoroom in Sarajevo.

20 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, did I well understand that your next

22 witness will be Fatima Pita? That's the change of order you indicated

23 before.

24 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, in Sarajevo, if you could hear me, you

Page 5871












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5872

1 could escort the next witness Fatima Pita into the videoroom. Meanwhile,

2 we'll tender the documents from the witness.

3 Madam Registrar, would you please guide us. Part of the documents

4 shown were already admitted in evidence. But the new exhibits are -- yes,

5 could you please name them and describe them so that we can take a

6 decision. I think the first one is P3202. Is that true?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It is P3202, and that is a map

8 showing a red cross.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a map marked with a red cross.


11 JUDGE ORIE: That's admitted in evidence. Yes, next one.

12 THE REGISTRAR: The next one is P3280U, which is the video.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's admitted in evidence as well.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The next exhibit is P3265. That is a photograph

15 depicting buildings.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Also admitted into evidence.

17 THE REGISTRAR: P3279U, which is the CD-Rom electronic 360-degree

18 photograph.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That's also admitted into evidence.

20 THE REGISTRAR: The last one I have is P3279B, which is the

21 annotated version of P3279OA.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's also -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, simply to

24 indicate the Defence always has the same objections, the objections put

25 forward with respect to the electronically-joined exhibits, especially as

Page 5873

1 in this case the witness gave at least three possible locations as the

2 material spot where the incident took place. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The standing objection against the 360-degrees

4 photographs is taken into consideration every time we take a decision on

5 this type of material.

6 So 3279OB is also admitted into evidence.

7 Ms. Philpott, may I just address you. Would you bring to The

8 Hague the Exhibit P3279OB which is marked in Sarajevo. I take it that

9 you'll keep it in your custody until returning to The Hague. Thank you

10 very much for that.

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but before

13 we hear the next witness --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness is standing and waiting. So --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just briefly, with respect to

16 the testimony of this witness, we would have liked to have received the

17 military documents that we discussed a little while ago. We don't have

18 them. The Defence is once again handicapped by those -- that particular

19 fact.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We take notice of your remark, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 Ms. Philpott, I see the headphones are placed on the head of the

22 next witness.

23 Mrs. Pita, welcome, I cannot say in this courtroom, but welcome at

24 least in the videoroom where we can see you. I expect that you can see us

25 on your screen as well and that you can hear me in a language --

Page 5874

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you, Your Honours,

2 and hello from sunny Sarajevo.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for the sunshine you bring to The Hague,

4 Ms. Pita. Before testifying in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and

5 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the

6 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And the text of this

7 declaration is being handed to you now by the representative of the

8 Registry. May I invite you to make that declaration.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Pita. Please be seated.

12 Ms. Pita, the order is that you'll first be examined by counsel

13 for the Prosecution, then by counsel for the Defence, and if there are any

14 additional questions the Judges would like to put to you, you'll hear from

15 them.

16 Mr. Ierace, you may start.

17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 [Witness testified through videolink]

21 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

22 Q. Is your name Fatima Pita?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In 1992, were you living in Sarajevo?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5875

1 Q. Did you live there throughout the armed conflict between 1992 and

2 1995?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Were you living there by the end of -- withdraw that. Were you

5 living there in December 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. At that stage, were you married, in December 1992?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you have any children in December 1992?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. How many children did you have?

12 A. Two.

13 Q. What are the names of those two children, and what sex?

14 A. Two girls. The eldest one's name is Selma, and the younger one is

15 Anisa. Anisa, sorry.

16 Q. How old were they in December 1992?

17 A. Selma was born on the 27th of March, 1975. And let me just

18 emphasise, Your Honour, that my older daughter is from a previous

19 marriage. Anisa was born on the 16th of June, 1989, and it was from my

20 second marriage.

21 Q. Whereabouts in Sarajevo were you living in December 1992?

22 A. I was living in Stari Grad Zadrici Street number 38.

23 Q. At that address, during the armed conflict, up until December

24 1995, had there been any shells landing near your place?

25 A. Yes. Every day, like drops of rain.

Page 5876

1 Q. During the armed conflict, was your daughter Anisa wounded?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When did that happen?

4 A. On the 13th of December, 1992, between 10.00 and 11.00 in the

5 forenoon.

6 Q. Had there been any shelling near your place either that morning or

7 the night before or a few days before?

8 A. The previous night.

9 Q. Where were you during the shelling?

10 A. We were, my family and I, were a little -- and some of the

11 neighbours, were in my basement.

12 Q. So your husband, yourself, and your two children, and some

13 neighbours, were in your basement during the shelling the night before.

14 Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How many shells did you hear falling in the area the night before

17 from your basement?

18 A. The previous night, that is to say on the 12th of December, that

19 night from the first evening hours until 5.00 in the morning, I counted a

20 full 70 shells.

21 Q. What condition was your residence in on the morning of the 13th of

22 December, 1992?

23 A. The house, as a house, is an old building, it's an old house. But

24 the house is slightly on an incline, on a hill, so that the basement or

25 cellar was in concrete, although the entrance door to the cellar were not

Page 5877

1 as protected. They, too, were exposed like the door up above.

2 Q. What condition was your house in on the morning of the 13th of

3 December, 1992, in terms of cleanliness?

4 A. It was in a poor state. It had been hit with five shells. Two

5 dropped on the roof. Luckily, those two didn't explode. But all the

6 others fell around the house, around the gate, and that morning, when

7 things became quieter, I went outside. Because in our cellar or basement,

8 there wasn't a toilet or anything else, so we would have to go upstairs

9 two at a time or three at a time. And I found the door leading into the

10 living room all broken down. There was -- there were bricks and bits of

11 steel and everything else, earth and so on. Now, I have a flower bed

12 right in front of my door. Everything had been -- there was a

13 detonation, an explosion, and it was all scattered about inside the house

14 and you couldn't recognise it at all.

15 Q. Were there any military positions near your house at that time?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you live in an area that was on the Bosnian government side of

18 the confrontation lines or on the other side of the confrontation lines at

19 that time?

20 A. I don't know what sides there were, left or right. I think it

21 should have right, below Trebevic.

22 Q. My question is whether -- withdraw that. My question is on what

23 side of the confrontation lines was your house? Was it on the side of the

24 Bosnian government forces or on the other side?

25 A. On the Serb side, there were forces of the Serb army.

Page 5878

1 Q. Do you mean by that that you and your family lived on the Serb

2 side of the confrontation line?

3 A. We lived -- it was our territory, but behind us were the Serb

4 positions.

5 Q. All right.

6 Mrs. Pita, did you understand during the war that the forces that

7 controlled the city, the main part of the city, were the armed forces of

8 the Bosnian government? Was that your understanding?

9 A. I didn't understand your question.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I have an

12 objection to make. I do apologise. Despite my reluctance to object, I

13 have to make an objection here because when we're talking about the city,

14 we have seen that there are different parts of the city that were divided

15 into different factions and could, therefore, Mr. Ierace specify what

16 faction and what quarter he is referring to, what district. Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I can't hear very well.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, since Mr. Piletta-Zanin does not

19 understand or at least is of the opinion that it might not be clear to the

20 witness, would you please rephrase the question. But it's not necessary

21 to indicate all the specific parts of the city.

22 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I had in fact been careful to

23 refer to the main part of the city, but I'll rephrase the question.

24 Q. Mrs. Pita --

25 A. Yes.

Page 5879

1 Q. -- you referred a few moments ago to the Serb side of the

2 confrontation line. Was that your side or the other side?

3 A. [No Interpretation]

4 Q. I think you answered "yes," so I'll rephrase the question again.

5 How far was your house from the confrontation lines in December 1992,

6 approximately? Approximately how far?

7 A. This is how I can clarify matters: On that hill, there's a rock

8 that we call "Baba," and that's where my daughter was hit from. Before

9 the war, I was there several times on this hill for a picnic. There's a

10 lovely view of Sarajevo, and we would gather there from time to time. I

11 think, but I can't specify, I'm not an expert, but between 200 and 300

12 metres.

13 Q. Which forces controlled Baba on the day that your daughter was

14 wounded?

15 A. Yes, that was the Baba rock, and between that Baba rock, there was

16 a road controlled by Serb forces. In between the two rocks, this road

17 went between the two rocks. One rock was higher up and one rock was a

18 little lower down.

19 Q. If you could listen to my question carefully, please. Which

20 forces actually controlled Baba on the day that your daughter was

21 wounded? Was it the Serb forces --

22 A. Serb forces.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, coming back to the morning of the 13th of

24 December, you've told us about the condition of your house. Did you have

25 running water at that time, water coming through the taps?

Page 5880

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to

3 intervene because the question, the question to which -- in which the term

4 was used "Serb forces," this question is a leading question in which Serb

5 forces are referred to and, therefore, it is unacceptable as being a

6 leading question.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in fact, the question I asked was not

8 leading. And whilst the witness was answering the questions, I started to

9 ask a further question which would have posed alternative forces. I got

10 as far as saying "Serb forces" when the witness interrupted me. So on the

11 transcript, it may appear that there was a leading question, whereas in

12 fact there was not.

13 JUDGE ORIE: It is indicated on the transcript, there are two, not

14 dots, but two -- and it is also my recollection that you were interrupted

15 by the witness, who did not wait to give an answer. So please proceed.


17 Q. Mrs. Pita, did you have water in your taps, coming out of your

18 taps, on the 13th of December, 1992?

19 A. No, we didn't. From 1992 onwards, I personally, and I think the

20 whole city, but I'm talking about my house and my household, we had no

21 water, no electricity, no telephone. All that was cut off. I think it

22 was cut off on one and the same day.

23 Q. Did someone obtain water that morning?

24 A. Yes. On the 12th of December, that morning, I was the first to

25 get up. Everybody else got up, too, because believe me, Your Honours, if

Page 5881

1 you haven't got any electricity and you have no water and no food and no

2 contact with anything, then you can't sleep for long. So we would go to

3 bed early and get up very early, too.

4 Q. I'm asking you about the 13th of December, which I think you said

5 was the date that your daughter was wounded. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. All right.

8 A. My husband and my little girl went to fetch water, that night, on

9 the 12th, in the evening. There was a little rain, and we were happy

10 because that was a source of water, and the streams would rise. It wasn't

11 drinking water, but for hygiene purposes and in the home for cleaning.

12 Mountain streams would rise when it rained.

13 Q. What time was it when your husband and your little girl went to

14 fetch water?

15 A. They went -- I can't specify the time. Perhaps it was about 8.00,

16 or between 8.00 and 9.00. My husband took the canisters, and my little

17 girl had a small can of her own. It might have been a 5 litre can. She

18 was with her father. She liked her father. So that the two of them went

19 off to fetch water to the stream, to the creek. It wasn't -- there wasn't

20 a lot of water there, just dribbles of water, and there were quite a few

21 people there so you had to wait in line, in a queue. And came back ten

22 minutes later; her father stayed on.

23 Q. When you refer to your little girl, do you mean Anisa?

24 A. Yes, I was referring to my daughter Anisa. Anisa came back at

25 that -- where the water was, she found a girl that was four or five years

Page 5882

1 older than her, and they came back to play. They came back to play,

2 because that night there was a lot of shelling, and in the morning it was

3 a little quieter. Now, the weather, it was foggy, a dull day, and we used

4 that when visibility wasn't very good during the night, we went out

5 looking for food, for firewood and so on. Now, when she came back, her

6 friend had slippers on her feet. And at that point, at that moment, my

7 little girl stepped in --

8 Q. Mrs. Pita, could you please --

9 THE INTERPRETER: There was interference, the interpreters note.

10 A. She began doing up -- undoing her shoes, her laces, and you could

11 hear shots. I was half a metre away from my girl when she hit. What you

12 could see first was dust, and she screamed, and as she was taking off her

13 shoes, her head fell on the threshold of the door, and she was huddled

14 up. She didn't lie flat. She was huddled up and kneeling down, and she

15 opened her mouth wide when she was hit, and I thought she had been

16 mortally wounded. I didn't see any blood around her. I didn't see that

17 she was hit in her head, but I felt ill myself, and I was screaming so

18 loudly that all the neighbours came rushing to see what was going on. I

19 wasn't conscious, Your Honours. And even to this day, Your Honours, I

20 don't remember whether I brought her into the sitting room in my

21 unconscious state or semiconscious state, or somebody else did that. But

22 it was all a split second. It all happened in a split second, and I came

23 to when they threw water over me and they said, "She's all right, she's

24 all right, she wasn't hit in the head; she's been hit in the leg."

25 And then I fainted again. When I saw that she had lived,

Page 5883

1 survived, that it wasn't that bad, I fainted again. And I came to, I

2 regained consciousness, and realised that I had to carry her myself and

3 look for help to prevent her from bleeding to death. At that point,

4 somebody told my husband up at the watering place that his daughter had

5 been injured. He rushed back, brought back the water he managed to

6 capture, 5 or 6 liters, and we used that -- they used that water to throw

7 the water over us. And then after that, I turned round, looking for

8 something to bandage her wound with. When we cut off her trousers, we saw

9 that she had in fact been hit in her leg. There wasn't much blood. I saw

10 the wound personally. And I looked at the trace the bullet had made from

11 the threshold to her leg. It was an entrance/exit wound. We took off a

12 pillow case. We had nothing else clean in the house because everything

13 was dirty, and we used the white pillow case to bandage the wound. And my

14 husband and my brother-in-law carried our little girl to the clinic.

15 I don't know which route we took, but we reached the clinic, the

16 health clinic, and they didn't have that many bandages either, but they

17 bandaged her wound with the bandages they had, put a plaster on, and told

18 her that it had to be operated because it was a entrance/exit wound, and

19 that we should take her to Kosevo hospital, to the orthopaedic

20 department. But we had no means of transportation so we carried her

21 there.

22 Shooting started in this place between the two buildings which was

23 called Mejtas, and you could see it. It was a visible place, an exposed

24 place. And we took her to the clinic, to the hospital. They admitted us,

25 and at the hospital, there were a lot of people. There was a crowd. We

Page 5884

1 went through the door. But I remember at that particular moment there was

2 a doctor there. She was a foreigner, and she was a Bulgarian lady

3 doctor. And she admitted us. They took our daughter in the operating

4 theatre, examined her, told us to leave the room. We went out and I felt

5 faint again but they said everything would be fine, that they had to treat

6 the wound, to operate it, and then they came out and said, "There's no

7 room here. You'll have to bring in your girl seven to ten days to have

8 her wound dressed."

9 So they didn't have any anaesthesia or any injections. They

10 tended to her wound. They put a drainage system on her wound to ensure

11 drainage to the wound, and my husband and I had to take her in every

12 morning. I can't tell you how many kilometres it was but it was from one

13 hill to the other. We took her every morning for her wound to be

14 dressed. All I can tell you is that my little girl was not a very heavy

15 little girl, she was just 9 kilos, but it's very difficult when you have

16 to take shelter behind buildings to see whether you would be able to reach

17 the hospital to have her wound dressed and whether you would be able to

18 get back home alive, the three of us going there and back.

19 Q. Mrs. Pita, you said that when you took her to the health clinic --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I didn't wish to interrupt the

22 witness, and I didn't take the floor earlier, but in respect of what

23 happened on page 66, line 6 of the transcript, as far as I can see it in

24 English, there was a substantial difference in the French transcript and

25 the English transcript. I thought I heard "she was one or one and a half

Page 5885

1 metres from us," whereas in the English transcript I see "I was." It says

2 "I." I think this is important to see whether the witness was speaking

3 about herself or her friend. Because there is a difference between the

4 French and English transcript. Thank you. I was listening to the French

5 booth.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as a matter of fact we see that at that same

7 spot, page 66, line 5, Mr. Ierace, there was interference. We also could

8 see it on the screen since the image was not moving any more.

9 I didn't want to interrupt either. Could you perhaps take the

10 witness back to that very moment so in order to clarify what the answer

11 was when the transmission seemed to be interfered by whatever technical.


13 Q. Mrs. Pita, whilst you gave that long account, there was an

14 interruption in the --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. There was an interruption in what we could hear.

17 A. I'll repeat. Let me repeat.

18 Q. Please don't repeat. We heard everything you said except for

19 approximately 8 seconds. I will tell you where that period of time was.

20 You told us that the weather was a foggy -- in relation to the weather, it

21 was a foggy, dull day, and you said these words: "And we used that when

22 visibility wasn't very good. During the night, we went out looking for

23 food, for firewood, and so on. When she came back, her friend had

24 slippers on her feet. And at that point, at that moment, my little girl

25 stepped in." And the next thing we heard you say, Mrs. Pita, was

Page 5886

1 this: "She began doing up her laces and you could hear shots. I was half

2 a metre away from my girl when she hit. What you could see first was

3 dust, and she screamed."

4 So Mrs. Pita, there was a period of a few seconds that we

5 missed. Do you remember what it was you said in those few seconds? I

6 remind you that we have you saying, "At that point, at that moment, my

7 little girl stepped in -- "

8 A. Yes, let me explain this a bit. It wasn't my friend. That girl,

9 the girl with whom my daughter came was her friend. It was my daughter's

10 friend. That little girl was five years old, and my daughter Anisa was

11 three and a half years old. So it's her little girl, her friend, and they

12 were coming back from the water to play in our house, or rather in our

13 basement. So it wasn't my colleague or my friend. I apologise to the

14 Court. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Made the mistake.

15 Q. All right. Now please wait one moment.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, should I continue questioning now or

17 later, given the time?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't want to

19 obscure the debate, but may I be of assistance and help my learned

20 colleague. Who was there? That's the question. Who was a metre and a

21 half or half a metre from the child? That's the point, Mr. Ierace.

22 Because we had this difference in transcripts. We know that it was the

23 friend of the daughter. We understood that, all of us. But who was at a

24 metre and a half or one and a half metres from the daughter when the

25 accident took place? That's where the Gordian knot lies.

Page 5887

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I had proposed to ask those questions

2 of the witness, but the first step was simply to, in a neutral way, invite

3 the witness to fill in the gap.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that the gap has been -- at least a few

5 seconds might not have lost, of course. We do not know exactly what has

6 been said. But I get the impression that we could proceed even without

7 pointing very specifically on these six seconds.

8 So perhaps keeping in mind the issue raised by Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

9 you could proceed, Mr. Ierace. Apart from that, I look at the clock.

10 Perhaps we might take a break now. As I indicated before, it will be a

11 longer break than usual.

12 Mrs. Pita, we'll have a break for approximately half an hour.

13 That means that after this half an hour, the counsel for the Prosecution

14 will resume examining you as a witness, and then of course the Defence

15 counsel will come later. So we'll resume in half an hour and have a break

16 until then.

17 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, are you...?

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I want to bring to your attention that

21 I spoke to the interpreters, or one of the interpreters, in particular,

22 this morning, who indicated that the degree of interference with the voice

23 line to Sarajevo makes it extremely difficult to translate. And she

24 inquired whether it was possible for the interference to be in some way

25 filtered more than it is, to relieve their burden. So I bring that to

Page 5888

1 your attention. Perhaps the technical booth could look at it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Did you bring it already to the attention of the

3 technical booth? Not yet. I would have not have opposed if you would

4 have done so, so that during the break we could have.

5 Yes, I can only ask the technicians to see whether they can do

6 anything about it. If it would be useful to have an interval, to have it

7 fixed, then of course we do so. If we can continue and if you could just

8 try to experience whether you can make it any better, that would be even

9 preferable. When I do not hear any explicit request from the technical

10 booth to have a break, we'll just continue and perhaps the speed of our

11 speech might be of some importance as well.

12 Ms. Philpott, you have heard about the technical problems. If

13 there's anything that could be done in Sarajevo, of course, I expect the

14 technicians to be in touch with each other. And let's slowly proceed,

15 then, and see what happens. And may I invite everyone who is facing

16 difficulties they cannot overcome to inform me immediately.

17 Could you then please bring Ms. Pita into the videoroom again.

18 Welcome back, Mrs. Pita. Counsel for the Prosecution will now

19 resume the examination. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Mrs. Pita, you told us earlier that your daughter was wounded

22 between 10.00 and 11.00 on the -- that is, before noon, on the 13th of

23 December. What was the weather like that morning before your daughter and

24 your husband went off to fetch water?

25 A. The weather was, that night, or rather on the 12th of December,

Page 5889

1 first there was some rain. It was pretty cold. It was late autumn. In

2 the morning, it was dull and overcast and foggy. But it was basically

3 foggy. The visibility was poor after we went for water, and that is when

4 the day broke. It was also dull and overcast.

5 Q. Did you have any concerns for your daughter's safety when she went

6 off to collect water with your husband?

7 A. Why, yes, always. But that morning, after all that shelling, it

8 was quite quiet and calm.

9 Q. Was the fact that it was foggy important to you in any way in the

10 decision to let her go with your husband?

11 A. But, of course. But, of course. It was important. It is my

12 child. And believe me, all the time, in the cellar, in the cellar she

13 could barely wait to see some daylight. And all children, many children

14 in that city, fell victim, and they wanted to come out, to come out of the

15 cellar, to come out to see some daylight, some open sky, for all the

16 children, even if it was not easy.

17 Q. Mrs. Pita, please listen carefully to the questions that I ask

18 you. Could you explain, please, to us the relevance of it being foggy to

19 the decision to let your daughter go with your husband to collect water.

20 A. I have already said that. There was major shelling that night.

21 But the morning seemed that a truce had been -- the fire had stopped at

22 around perhaps 5.00 in the morning. We had no water, but we needed water

23 badly. And since there was some rain, we thought that that stream had

24 swollen perhaps a little bit. And because there were so many people who

25 needed water. And she cried and she wanted to go with her father. And I

Page 5890

1 stayed behind to clear the house from what had happened that night.

2 Q. All right. Please, listen to me. Generally before that day, in

3 the weeks and months before that day, in the area where you lived, were

4 people concerned that they could be seen from Serb positions when they

5 moved about outside their houses?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right, now please --

8 A. Your Honours, yes. My house, where I live, and where I used to

9 live, you can still see it as if the palm of your hand. The entrance into

10 my house faces those lines.

11 Q. Mrs. Pita, if you could please just answer the question that I ask

12 you, I would be very grateful. Now, when people moved about, given that

13 they were concerned, did they move about more freely at night and when the

14 weather made it more difficult for them to be seen from positions held by

15 Serb forces?

16 A. Yes, at night, of course.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, once again,

19 this was a leading question, because it's not only whether people

20 separated by night, but also with the intention that can be read into it,

21 and I do not think that this question should be admitted. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the question has been answered already. I can't

23 imagine that this is a point that may be more in dispute than the last

24 objection raised against a question which would be leading or not

25 leading. Would you please keep that in mind, Mr. Ierace.

Page 5891

1 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.

2 Q. You have told us that the fact that it was foggy that morning was

3 relevant to your decision to let your daughter go with your husband to

4 collect water. Could you please explain to us why the fact that it was

5 foggy was relevant to that decision?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has

8 already answered that question. My learned friend has already asked that

9 question and she answered it.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the witness has not in fact responded

11 to that part of the question.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness responded to the weather

13 conditions, and it's my recollection that she explained exactly why the

14 rain influenced her decision, but it's not my recollection there was a

15 specific answer to this part of the weather conditions. But if I'm

16 mistaken, then we'll just check it.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe, Mr. President, I

18 believe that she was -- that she did speak about that. But I'm speaking

19 from memory. I believe she mentioned visibility. We can check it in the

20 transcript. I was listening to the Serbian, but we can -- I believe that

21 is also somewhere in the English transcript. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the answer was on -- the question was on 72,

23 line 24: "Was the fact that it was foggy important to you in any way in

24 the decision to let her go with your husband?" The answer was, "But of

25 course, but of course, it was important. It's my child, and believe me

Page 5892

1 all the time in the cellar, in the cellar."

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. The question was put to the

4 witness, but the answer the witness gave did not really respond to that

5 specific aspect of the question. So the objection is denied.


7 Q. Mrs. Pita, I will ask you that question again. Could you please

8 explain to us what exactly was the relevance of the fact that it was foggy

9 to your decision to let your daughter go with your husband to collect the

10 water?

11 A. May I say this: I have already said that. I do not know whether

12 that is the specific question. It was foggy. It was dull. It was

13 overcast, as I've said already. But when my daughter went with my

14 husband, and I repeated it several times, and in my statement, the girl

15 was very much attached to her father, and I suppose that she just spent

16 too much time in darkness in the cellar. And like any child, she simply

17 wanted to get out. It was interesting for her to see that water, to see

18 how it's poured, how it's collected, how it's carried and so on. And let

19 me explain it. Whilst they were at that stream, the fog -- the fog had

20 already lifted. The fog was gone.

21 Q. So I take it that by the time your daughter returned to the house,

22 it was no longer foggy, having regard to your last answer. Is that the

23 case?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, whereabouts exactly was your daughter at the moment that she

Page 5893

1 was shot?

2 A. Yes, Your Honours, let me explain it to you. As far as I could

3 understand --

4 Q. Mrs. Pita, before you explain, could you please listen to me. If

5 you are able to answer my question by simply stating the place, that will

6 be enough. Can you tell us where exactly she was at the moment that she

7 was -- I withdraw that question. I'll ask you another question.

8 Were you actually watching your daughter at the moment she was

9 shot or not? If you can answer that question simply, please do so.

10 A. I'll explain it to you. The -- my little girl was taking her

11 shoes off in front of the front door, and I was away from the threshold,

12 about less than half a metre to the left. That is, to the right from the

13 entrance. And I had one foot in the bathroom and the other one in the

14 passage, in the hall. That is how I was standing. And then I heard that

15 shot, as I have already said. I just moved my left foot towards her,

16 towards the front door.

17 Q. All right. Thank you for that. Now, you have told us that you

18 took her to a clinic for some treatment, and then from the clinic, you

19 took her to Kosevo Hospital. Approximately how far was the clinic from

20 your house?

21 A. No, perhaps we didn't understand each other. It was like this:

22 First, we took her to the health centre. That was the health centre

23 before the war, and still is. And we first took her there, but those

24 doctors saw that the bullet had gone through her body, that it was not a

25 minor incident, and then they sent us to the hospital at Kosevo.

Page 5894

1 Q. Mrs. Pita, all right. How far away was the health centre,

2 approximately, from your home?

3 A. I always go back to that thing. I will not make it -- I will not

4 specify it, but it could be four, five hundred metres perhaps to the

5 health centre.

6 Q. All right. In a moment you will see a video on the screen in

7 front of you. Please watch the video carefully.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage, I would be grateful for

9 Exhibit P3280W to be shown on the screen. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, could the technicians assist us. I see

11 it's on the screen. Ms. Philpott, could you confirm that it's on the

12 screen as well.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] We now have it on the screen, Your

14 Honour.


16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 [Videotape played]

18 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Could you please show me, to the best

19 of your recollection, you were located at the time your daughter Anisa was

20 shot.

21 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

22 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Thank you. Can you now please show me

23 by standing on the spot where, to the best of your recollection, Anisa was

24 standing at the time that she was shot.

25 "THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She was in this position.

Page 5895

1 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Can you now please point to the spot

2 where, to the best of your recollection, the bullet hole was before the

3 wall was repaired.

4 "THE WITNESS: Here, in the corner. At the corner. While Anisa

5 was on the ground.

6 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Could you now please point in the

7 direction where, to the best of your recollection, the sound of gunfire

8 came at the time or shortly before the time that Anisa was shot.

9 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

10 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Thank you. If you could just hold

11 that position.

12 "Thank you."


14 Q. Mrs. Pita, did you recognise yourself in that video?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to make

17 an observation, and it is the following: It seems to me to be of

18 importance. General, please.

19 The video was necessarily taken before this videolink testimony on

20 the part of the witness. I see that the person interviewing her,

21 Mr. Hogan, used, at least at one point, the expression "when they shot at

22 you." Now, I think that this type of question could be a leading one,

23 because who knows whether this child might have been the victim of a

24 ricocheting bullet. So if she was the victim of ricocheting, then they

25 didn't shoot at her. She was the victim of an accident. And I think that

Page 5896

1 this is an important distinction to be made, and the Defence cannot but

2 object when we come to a cassette like that, a tape like that, because I

3 see the witness with this type of question is being prepared. So the

4 Defence feels that this is not completely honest on the part of the

5 Prosecutor to proceed in that way.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the investigator, Mr. Hogan, spoke in

9 English. I have the benefit of a transcript in English, thanks to the

10 transcript writers in Court. My learned colleague speaks English, and he

11 has put to the Trial Chamber that the investigator used the words "when

12 they shot -- " Excuse me. "When they shot at you." Those words do not

13 appear in the transcript, and I don't recollect having heard them spoken

14 by the investigator, and they are the basis of my friend's complaint.

15 Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I think

18 that Mr. Ierace could switch on to the French channel to see what -- hear

19 what I heard. What I just did was to mention the expression, and let me

20 take it up again, in the transcript. Je pense que ce qui... "shot at."

21 C'est cette expression. I think that expression could be contentious,

22 leading, in the sense that if there was a ricochet, there wasn't a shot

23 which would have been targeting the child. So this is a nuance, a shade

24 of meaning, and I found this in page 78, line 13 of the English

25 transcript. And this could lead to some very serious problems, Mr.

Page 5897

1 President, because let me repeat, the tape was filmed before the testimony

2 of this witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: So you make an objection against the use of the video

4 since the video would be leading the witness into answering questions.

5 The video has been played by now. We'll consider it and we'll give you a

6 decision. I expect the video to be tendered into evidence.

7 Yes, Mr. Ierace. I don't know whether you understood the

8 objection. The objection was "shooting at." That's the same words you

9 used, and the objection of Mr. Piletta-Zanin was that if it would have

10 been a ricochet, that there would be no situation where someone had been

11 shooting at a person.

12 MR. IERACE: The difficulty, Mr. President, is that the words

13 alleged by Mr. Piletta-Zanin are "when they shot at you." The words were

14 not said.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have to... Just look at the transcript at how

16 it has been -- Let me just see.

17 Could you guide me, Mr. Ierace, where it is in the --


19 JUDGE ORIE: "Could you please point in the direction to the best

20 of your recollection..."

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I quoted the lines. It was

22 78:13, and the expression was "she was shot." That's what I said, "she

23 was shot." And that seemed to me to be leading. I don't know what it was

24 translated in in Serbian, because I wasn't able to hear what was said.

25 But I fear it referred to a direct shot, which it might not have been.

Page 5898

1 JUDGE ORIE: It doesn't say direct shot. It doesn't say "shot

2 at." It was "shot." Nothing more, nothing less. We'll give a decision on

3 that. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

4 MR. IERACE: I'll ask Your Honours to look also at page 79, line

5 10, as to what Mr. Piletta-Zanin alleged, but I accept of course that the

6 decision will come later. Thank you.

7 Q. Mrs. Pita, did you recognise yourself in that video?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When you carried out the directions of the investigator, did you

10 do so truthfully and to the best of your recollection?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown in

13 Sarajevo a copy of Photograph Exhibit Number 3266.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, could you confirm when.

15 MR. IERACE: Whilst that's being done, perhaps copies of that

16 exhibit could be distributed in the courtroom.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We see on our screen that it is on the ELMO in

18 Sarajevo now.


20 Q. Mrs. Pita, can you see that photograph from where you are sitting?

21 A. Yes, I can see it.

22 Q. Did you sign that photograph and put on it the date that you

23 signed it?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Was that on the 25th of September, 2001?

Page 5899

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. Did you place a black pen mark on the photograph outlining a tree,

3 a small tree?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was that tree there -- I withdraw that. First of all, does the

6 photograph show the view --

7 A. No, this tree was not there.

8 Q. All right. Can you tell us what can be seen in the photograph.

9 A. On the photograph, we can see the place. I can't specify. The

10 rock, but it is my opinion that it was the place from which she was hit,

11 and no other place. So on my side, where I am, is the terrace. Between

12 the two houses, across that roof over there. I can't see from this

13 distance very well, but that's where the rock is.

14 Q. All right. You told us --

15 A. Only 5, 6 metres of terrace can be hit.

16 Q. You've told us that the photograph shows the terrace between the

17 two houses. Do you mean by that the area from -- please listen to the

18 question -- the area that can be seen from the porch of your house?

19 A. Yes. As if it was on the palm of your hand.

20 Q. And I think you've already told us that the tree that you outlined

21 in black ink was not there on the date that your daughter was shot. Is

22 that correct?

23 A. No, it wasn't. The tree was planted actually on the 24th of

24 March, 1994. Because of treatment of my daughter, we all went for

25 treatment. So from the shells and the impact of the shells, this area

Page 5900

1 where the tree is located was a flower bed in fact. As it was a flower

2 bed, there were roses which were damaged by the shelling. After we left

3 to go abroad, in this space, somebody -- one of our relatives planted a

4 cherry tree. It's a young tree. It's a small tree, but you know how long

5 it takes yourself for a tree to grow.

6 Q. Mrs. Pita, if you are able to answer questions with a simply yes

7 or no, that would be preferred. On the photograph, is it possible to see

8 the place that you called Baba?

9 A. I think you can, yes.

10 Q. Did you place a mark on the photograph indicating the position of

11 Baba?

12 A. Yes, I did. I placed an arrow.

13 Q. The position of the arrow seems to be in a white part of the

14 photograph. Do you agree?

15 A. No, on the line itself.

16 Q. All right. What clothes was your daughter wearing on the morning

17 that she was shot, at that time?

18 A. My little girl was wearing -- and I dressed her myself that

19 morning because it was rather a chilly morning, and she had on the

20 following: She had white tennis shoes with laces, laced up; she had blue

21 dungarees; and she had a dark red jacket, a windjammer.

22 Q. Which leg was shot? Which of your daughter's legs was shot, her

23 left leg or her right leg?

24 A. My little girl was wounded in her right leg.

25 Q. Now, coming back to the time that she was shot, you told us that

Page 5901

1 there was another little girl who arrived back at the house with her. And

2 I think you said that her name was Elma. What was Elma --

3 A. Elma Smajkan.

4 Q. Where was Elma at the time that Anisa was shot?

5 A. Elma had stepped into the hallway and had reached the sitting

6 room, right up to the sitting room.

7 Q. I think you said that she was wearing slippers. Is that correct,

8 that she was wearing slippers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And I take it that -- withdraw that. Did she take the slippers

11 off before she came inside?

12 A. Yes, she did.

13 Q. Did you see her take the slippers off?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. And you said that your daughter had some shoes with laces. Did

16 she have shoes with laces?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You've also indicated on the video the position that your daughter

19 was in at the time she was shot, and the position you indicated is that

20 she was crouched over. Is that as you recollect her position at the

21 moment she was shot?

22 A. Yes. Actually, she was standing up. She went in, crossed the

23 threshold, stepped across the threshold, and I told her to come back to

24 untie her tennis shoes, the laces of her tennis shoes. And as she bent

25 down to untie the laces, that's when she was hit, in that position. Her

Page 5902

1 left leg was in front, and her right leg was a little to the side, so it

2 hit her right in her right leg.

3 Q. At the time that she was taking off the shoes -- withdraw that.

4 You've told us that you turned around to see her immediately after

5 she was shot. When you last saw her immediately before she was shot --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- was she facing into the house or away from the house or to the

8 side, or what?

9 A. No, it was like this. Elma, her friend, had already stepped

10 inside. And the first noise when I was in the bathroom, I heard that she

11 was calling, "Mummy" outside. And she said, "I brought my friend along.

12 Can we play?" And I said -- I told them to take some toys and play around

13 the house where the cellar was, but I saw --

14 Q. Mrs. Pita, you told us a few moments ago, "I told her to come back

15 to untie her tennis shoes, the laces of her tennis shoes. As she bent

16 down to untie her laces, that's when she was hit, in that position. Her

17 left leg was to the front and her right leg was to the side so it hit her

18 right in her right leg."

19 My question is simply, at that moment when she was shot, which way

20 was she facing?

21 A. She was facing the door, towards the entrance.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. IERACE: No further questions, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

25 Perhaps before I give the opportunity to the Defence to

Page 5903

1 cross-examine the witness, let me just first give you the decision in

2 relation to the video and the -- whether the question was leading or not.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. With

4 regard to that issue, what I wanted to point out, and specifically to say,

5 was that the objection includes and essentially includes the fact that

6 this interview was before the telephone transmission [as interpreted], and

7 we are proceeding with the fact, whether it was correct or not, that it

8 was a shot, and it was a wound created by a bullet. As a consequence of

9 that, I think that to proceed in that way represents something which goes

10 along the lines of a leading question. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We do not have the statement of the witness. Could

12 you please verify for me whether the statement was of an earlier date, and

13 perhaps could we see the exact date of the video. Because that's the very

14 basis of your objection. The statement was given, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, by

15 Ms. Pita on what date?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think the date is the 25th

17 of June, 2001, but I see a telephone mentioned in the transcript. I never

18 said "telephone" --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let's just do one thing after

20 another.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, the 25th of June, 2001.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we just see the beginning of the video to see

23 what date the video is, when the video was taken.

24 [Videotape played]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, I've seen enough. Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

Page 5904

1 the basis of your objection is that the video was taken prior to the -- or

2 at least that there was no statement of the witness yet. Does the

3 statement of the witness indicate that her daughter was hit by a bullet?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there is a

5 second statement, and that is dated the 25th, which is posterior to the

6 tape, which is after the tape. But I'm going to check both statements.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Is it the case of the Defence that --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The statement says, in fact,

9 that she was hit by a bullet.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what we see now is that

11 you made an objection based on a line which was not spoken. "Shot at" was

12 not the words spoken as far as I understand. Then you said it was leading

13 the witness. Is it the case of the Defence that the daughter of this

14 witness was not hit by a bullet? I'm not talking about intentionally shot

15 at, but is that the case of the Defence?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the problem is

17 that we don't know --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first ask you whether it is the case of

19 the Defence that this girl was not hit by a bullet.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I confer with my lead

21 counsel, please.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as we can't

25 know, we cannot say that she was hit by a bullet. Therefore, we're

Page 5905

1 challenging the fact.

2 JUDGE ORIE: So it's the case of the Defence that she was not hit

3 by a bullet. So we'll see and wait what this results in as far as the

4 cross-examination of the witness is concerned and as far as the evidence

5 to be presented by the Defence is concerned.

6 Let me then give you the decision. The Chamber understands that

7 the word "shot" means "hit by a bullet." The Chamber has been informed by

8 now that in a previous statement, previous to this video-taking, that the

9 witness has given a statement including that her daughter was hit by a

10 bullet. Therefore, it's not an acceptable leading, the question put by

11 the investigator to the witness where the daughter was at the time she was

12 shot. So the objection is denied. That's our decision.

13 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Fatima, good day to you.

17 A. Good day.

18 Q. Can you confirm that you gave a statement to the investigators of

19 the Prosecution on the 25th of September, 2001?

20 A. Yes, I can, and I do confirm it. I confirm my statement.

21 Q. And on 25th of June, 2001?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mrs. Fatima, you told us that in 1992, you lived in Sarajevo, and

24 the street was Zadrici Street. Can you tell us what local community in

25 the Stari Grad municipality that belongs to?

Page 5906

1 A. It is the Sirokaca local community.

2 Q. Can you confirm that in 1992, April, May, and June, so during that

3 period, that a state of war was proclaimed in Sarajevo and mobilisation

4 was proclaimed as well?

5 A. All I know is that shooting started. Now, what was proclaimed, I

6 don't know. I didn't hear.

7 Q. Within your local community of Sirokaca, is there a primary school

8 there?

9 A. Yes, there is.

10 Q. Is it not true that in that particular school, during the conflict

11 in Sarajevo in 1992, 1993, and 1994, that the army, the soldiers of the BH

12 army, were put up in the primary school building?

13 A. No, I don't know that. Not in the school, no.

14 Q. In this period, in 1992, 1993, and 1994, in the part of town you

15 lived in, did you happen to see soldiers of the BH army?

16 A. No. And I said up until when I lived there, the 24th of April,

17 1994, the whole of my family went for treatment abroad.

18 Q. Mrs. Fatima, I know that, and that's why I'm asking you about

19 1992, 1993, and 1994, up until April. That is to say, the period you were

20 there. During that time, did you happen to see BH army soldiers in the

21 part of town you lived in?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Your husband, did he have a work obligation to go to his

24 workplace?

25 A. No.

Page 5907

1 Q. Was your husband a member of the BH army?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You told us here today that you had no water. Can you tell us,

4 please, on the territory of the Sirokaca local community, was there a

5 water reservoir anywhere?

6 A. No, nowhere. In my area, nowhere in my neighbourhood.

7 Q. Is it true that the barracks called Bistrik, or the barracks at

8 Bistrik, rather, which is 1 kilometre away from where you lived, that that

9 was where the BH army was located? Can you confirm that?

10 A. I can only remember that before the war, it was the Yugoslav

11 army. As to the BH, I can't say because I don't know and didn't see it.

12 Q. Can you tell us how far from your house is the rock which is

13 called Baba, as you say?

14 A. Baba is -- I repeat it, I never measured it, and I'm no expert.

15 But with the naked eye, I would say two to three hundred metres.

16 Q. From what place in relation to your house can you see the Baba

17 rock when you say 200 metres?

18 A. I can see it whenever I go into my house or come out of my house.

19 That is what I see.

20 Q. When you speak about the Baba rock, are you speaking about a hill

21 which rises above your house where that rock outcrop is, or are you

22 referring to the rock alone?

23 A. Both the hill and the rock.

24 Q. Can you answer what hill, which is the hill that you can see from

25 your house?

Page 5908

1 A. Of course I can. It is the hill Trebevic.

2 Q. Is Trebevic a hill or a mountain?

3 A. I'd call it a hill.

4 Q. How long does it take you to reach the hill that you see from your

5 house on foot? I mean in terms of time, how long does it take you to get

6 there?

7 A. Well, once upon a time, when I used to go there for outings, it

8 would take me 20 minutes. Now that I am sick, perhaps it would take me an

9 hour or maybe even more.

10 Q. And that hill that you can see from your house, and that you tell

11 us is called Trebevic, in relation to your street, is it in the area of

12 Cicin Han or Brajkovac?

13 A. In between. Cicin Han is to the right, and Brajkovac is to the

14 left.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would now

16 like, since the witness has identified the location of the hill which has

17 the Baba rock in relation to the place where she lived, and we would like

18 the witness to see the map of the city of Sarajevo. The Defence has

19 submitted the plan to the officers who were in Sarajevo, and I'd now like

20 to ask that the plan of the city of Sarajevo showing Stari Grad be placed

21 on the ELMO. And in the lower right-hand corner where it says "Stari

22 Grad," will the witness place on the ELMO and mark the place where she

23 lived, in the area of Cicin Han-Brajkovac, and to show us where that hill

24 was in location to the house where she lived.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We now see that the map of Sarajevo is on the ELMO in

Page 5909

1 Sarajevo.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we focus it, please. Zoom

3 that part where it says "Stari Grad," Sirokaca," and "Cicin Han."

4 JUDGE ORIE: Am I right in understanding it's more to the right?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I think we're in the

6 right spot now.


8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mrs. Fatima --

10 A. I can't see.

11 Q. Can you mark the area of Sirokaca, Brajkovac.

12 A. I'm sorry, but I just can't see. And I'm afraid I won't be

13 precise enough. I'm afraid I'll go wrong. It's neither Cicin Han nor

14 Brajkovac. My street is in between. I'm sorry.

15 Q. Will you then just mark the location of your street, of Zagrici,

16 on the map?

17 A. Well, it's that I can't really see.

18 Q. Can you just bring the map down so that we can see.

19 A. I can't see. The lettering is just too small. I can't see it on

20 the screen.

21 Q. Can you bring the map down, please. Can you just... Can now it

22 be moved upward, please. Can the map be moved upward so that we have on

23 the screen the part of the city that you lived in.

24 A. Stari Grad.

25 Q. Witness, will you stop the map there and can we now zoom in, this

Page 5910

1 part of the map.

2 A. I can see Cicin Han, but Sirokaca...

3 Q. Will you then circle Cicin Han and Brajkovac.

4 A. I can't do it. That's not my street.

5 Q. Above Cicin Han and Brajkovac is where you see Sirokaca. Can you

6 see it?

7 A. No. No, excuse me. Sirokaca is my neighbourhood community, and

8 Zagrici is between Brajkovac. Zagrici is between these two

9 neighbourhoods. Here it is. Sirokaca. Sorry, I can see it here, but I

10 can't see it there.

11 Q. Will you circle where you see Sirokaca?

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it should be made clear whether the

13 witness is being invited simply to circle the name "Sirokaca," which

14 appears on the map, or Sirokaca as she knows it. I pose that because of

15 the last few answers by the witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, I have another problem. On the

17 screen, we can zoom in. The witness indicated several times that she

18 couldn't see it. If you can see it on the screen, this does not

19 automatically mean that you can see it on the map you have to mark as

20 well. Because there, of course, the size of the letters is the original

21 one. So would you please be very precise in --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's just too small, the lettering.

23 I can see it on the screen. I see them, but not on the map itself.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So Mrs. Fatima, you can see Sirokaca on the screen.

Page 5911

1 A. Yes, because it's large letters.

2 Q. Can you see to the left of it where it says Zagrici above

3 Sirokaca?

4 A. No, I don't think so. I think that Zagrici is somewhere here. I

5 don't know. I really can't find my way around this.

6 Q. But in relation to this map, and the place where it says Sirokaca,

7 can you determine the direction of the area which you called Trebevic hill

8 and where the Baba rock is in relation to the neighbourhood of Sirokaca?

9 A. I really can see it on the screen, but not on the map.

10 Q. Will you underline Sirokaca on the map so that we can see on the

11 screen that you have marked the place called Sirokaca.

12 A. I can see Sirokaca on the screen, but on the map the letters are

13 just too small and I can't see it.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the witness has now said four or five

15 times that the size of the letters on the map are too small for her to

16 see, and that the only thing -- the only place where she can read any text

17 is when it's enlarged on the screen. So you can't ask her to mark

18 anything on a map which she cannot read.

19 Please proceed.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, on the screen you can see -- will you please take a

22 pencil and point at the place where it says Sirokaca.

23 A. I can't see here.

24 Q. You can see it on the screen.

25 A. Could this be it? No, no, no, it isn't.

Page 5912

1 Q. Can you see on the screen where it says Sirokaca?

2 A. Yes, I do, on the screen.

3 Q. Well, keep the map that way. Can you, then, place the pencil and

4 show where that is?

5 A. Believe me, I cannot circle it because I don't see it.

6 Q. There's no need for you to circle it. Just place a pencil there.

7 Please, in relation to that place where it says Sirokaca, can you mark --

8 can you indicate the place which you say is called Brdo Trebevic, in which

9 direction? Just draw a line on the screen to indicate the direction. You

10 don't have to draw anything. Just have to use the pencil to show where is

11 the Trebevic hill.

12 A. It goes from the left to Brajkovac here.

13 Q. But your pencil there, and show us where Trebevic is.

14 A. I think that the hill is like this.

15 Q. In relation to Brajkovac where?

16 A. Brajkovac, I think is to the left. I don't know. I really can't

17 focus here. I can't see on the map because I don't see it. I see the

18 letters on the screen very well. But I cannot point on the screen and

19 look at the map, and the map is just -- the lettering is too small, and I

20 can't see anything and I therefore cannot point there. On the screen,

21 perhaps, yes. Would you please move to your next question.

22 Q. Witness, how far is the Trebevic hill from your street, from the

23 place where you live?

24 A. Well, once again, I don't know where to. The rock? I told you

25 how long it takes you. And where Trebevic is, you know where Trebevic is,

Page 5913

1 above the road towards Jahorina. Perhaps you don't know it but --

2 Q. Is Baba rock within -- is it a part of Trebevic hill?

3 A. I wouldn't know. That is one and the same.

4 Q. Is it at the foot of that hill or somewhere above it?

5 A. I can't be precise.

6 Q. When you look from your terrace, you said that you can see it as

7 if in the palm of your hand. Can you see both the hill and the rock, or

8 the rock only?

9 A. All I can see is the rock, and above the rock is a pylon, is a

10 high-voltage pylon that is there on that rock.

11 Q. Can you tell us how high is that rock?

12 A. Believe me, I didn't measure it. I know it's high, but how, I

13 don't know.

14 Q. In the direction in which you are looking from your house towards

15 the Baba rock, is there a wooded part of that hill?

16 A. Excuse me, could you repeat the question? Do you mean the rock

17 itself, or between my terrace and the rock?

18 Q. Between your terrace to the rock.

19 A. Why, yes, there are some fruit trees, and there is nothing.

20 Q. But is there any forest, any woods?

21 A. Yes. And above the rock --

22 Q. And above the rock, any woods there?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us in relation to the rock and the hill that you see

25 from your house, how far are the front lines, in relation to your house,

Page 5914

1 looking in that direction?

2 A. I already said that the distance was about 200 to 300 metres.

3 Q. And of that distance of two to three hundred metres, which army

4 was there?

5 A. Of the Republika Srpska.

6 Q. Can you tell us, where were the front lines of the BH army,

7 looking in that direction, and how far were they from your house?

8 A. No, I did not see that, and I don't know. And what I didn't see,

9 I cannot tell you about.

10 Q. Witness, I will now show you a part of your statement that you

11 gave to the investigators of the OTP on the 25th of June, 2001, page 3,

12 paragraph 3 in your statement on page 3. In English, that would be that

13 Document Number 0208-1039. In the English version, that is paragraph 3.

14 And I will read to you only one line from your statement: "The front

15 lines were toward the top of the hill. That was where the defenders

16 were."

17 When you said that -- did you say this?

18 A. The defenders. I don't remember saying that. No.

19 Q. Witness, you are telling us, aren't you, that a part of the

20 statement in your statement, which is on the page which I showed to you,

21 where you say the front lines were toward the top of the hill, that is

22 where the defenders were, are you saying that you did not state that?

23 A. Well, it could be an error, a mistake. But believe me when I say

24 that it was the troops of Republika Srpska who were there.

25 Q. Can you tell us, in that direction, when you said that the

Page 5915

1 defenders were in that direction, did you mean the army of the Republika

2 Srpska?

3 A. Sorry, I said the army of Republika Srpska, but I just don't

4 remember saying "defenders." And please, don't repeat the same question

5 over and over again. I've already answered that.

6 Q. Mrs. Fatima, can you tell us if from your house when you come out

7 into the street, whether from that direction you can also see the Baba

8 rock?

9 A. No. Only from the terrace, from in front of the door. The

10 terrace is about 4 or 5 metres long, and it could be hit only from there.

11 And once again, sorry, there is this child, the child, and the wound, and

12 my door, and the Baba rock, and there you are.

13 Q. Witness, you took your daughter first to the health centre, is

14 it? Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. After that, you took her to the Kosevo Hospital?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. Is it correct that for ten days, you had to take her there to have

19 her wound dressed?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. And do the hospital records -- does the hospital record show that

22 your daughter was admitted into the hospital and were you given some

23 medical documentation?

24 A. Yes, the letter of discharge says clearly "wounded by a sniper

25 bullet." I stated that I had lost all this hospital documentation when I

Page 5916

1 was abroad, and you can go and look at their records. It is there when we

2 took the child and all that.

3 Q. Can you answer on the basis of what do you claim that your

4 daughter had been hit by a bullet?

5 A. I can confirm first because I was on the spot; secondly, because

6 that bullet was so hot; thirdly, the paper, the documents, when we carried

7 her to the hospital, that is what the doctors put down. That is what they

8 wrote down, what she had been wounded by.

9 Q. You tell us that the bullet was hot. So you tell us that you had

10 seen that bullet?

11 A. Yes. I saw it, and I kept it until recently. And I'm really

12 sorry that I could not show it today to this Honourable Court. I lost

13 it. And even if I found it -- and that is also possible. If I find it, I

14 will show it.

15 Q. Witness, when you gave your statement to the OTP investigators,

16 did you give your statement in the Serbian language or in the English

17 language?

18 A. I gave my statement in my mother tongue, which is Bosnian.

19 Q. So you are saying that you gave the statement in your mother

20 tongue, and it was then translated into English?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. And after that, was it read to you? Was the statement read out to

23 you, the statement which was translated into English and which you signed

24 in English?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5917

1 Q. And did you, with your signature, confirm that what had been read

2 to you from the statement was what you had said to the OTP investigators?

3 A. I stand by my statement, and it's all as it is, 100 per cent.

4 Q. So you are confirming that you stated that the front lines were to

5 the top of the hill, and that the defenders were there?

6 A. No. The army of Republika Srpska, not on the hill but on the

7 rock, up the hill.

8 Q. Witness, I merely read to you what you claim you stated.

9 A. Yes, madam. Please ask me whatever you like. I'm here.

10 Q. Is it true that you stated - and I'll quote it to you once again -

11 I'll quote to you a part of your statement that you confirmed today that

12 you stand by it and all that the statement says is true and reflected

13 faithfully what you had said. I'll read it once again. Is it true when

14 you say in your statement, "The front lines were towards the top of the

15 hill. That was where the defenders were."

16 Did you say that?

17 A. No, no, I confirm my statement. But I do not recall that, and it

18 could be a misunderstanding. That is not what I said, and I do not think

19 that that was how it was. I will always stand by it, that those were the

20 lines of the army of Republika Srpska. And you can check it with them.

21 Q. Can you tell us where were the front lines where the members of

22 the army of BH were and which they held?

23 A. Please, I cannot confirm it for you because I do not know.

24 Q. Whilst the conflict went on and you lived in your house, did you

25 ever go in the direction of Baba rock?

Page 5918

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you see the soldiers of the army of Republika Srpska there?

3 A. No. And I never looked.

4 Q. So on the basis of what do you claim that it was the positions of

5 the army of Republika Srpska on the Baba rock?

6 A. Well, I'll explain it to you. I have already said, and repeatedly

7 so, that in my cellar, there was no toilet so that we had to go upstairs.

8 And as we went there -- and in my cellar, there were at times 20, 30

9 people from all over the neighbourhood, children and adults. So don't you

10 think that we need toilets?

11 Q. So --

12 A. And will you please wait until I finish. So as we went upstairs,

13 we could see fire because it was all dark. And we could see some -- the

14 fire, and whenever I went upstairs, I could see the fire coming from that

15 direction, from Baba rock --

16 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt you. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are

17 discussing in a loud voice, perhaps not aware that you're having

18 headphones. If there's any need to have any discussion with lead counsel,

19 please ask to be permitted to do so.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] My apologies to this,

21 Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, may I ask you another question

23 first. Ms. Pilipovic, we are approximately at the time at which we

24 intended to finish for today. Could you tell us how much time you'd still

25 need so that we can see whether we can conclude the examination of this

Page 5919

1 witness or not?

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think I'll need

3 another 10 to 15 minutes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: If you make it 10 minutes, Ms. Pilipovic, then I

5 think we could conclude. Some of the Judges have other obligations this

6 afternoon.

7 Please proceed, and try to make it as effective and efficient as

8 possible.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence is

10 always faced with that problem in the course of its cross-examination,

11 that it has to be efficacious.

12 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you Ms. Pilipovic that I noticed several

13 times the Prosecution, when the witness was giving very long answers,

14 tried to interfere and make it effective. So I think you're facing

15 similar problems. In the second half of the trial, you'll be the one who

16 will be examining in chief your witnesses and it will be the Prosecution

17 who has to cross-examine the witness. Please proceed.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, that is certain.

19 Q. Witness, can you tell us whether you saw soldiers belonging to the

20 army of Republika Srpska at Mount Baba -- sorry, Rock Baba?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Witness, you said that on the night between the 12th and 13th,

23 that there was shelling.

24 A. Yes. And the whole night at that.

25 Q. Can you tell us, in the area your house is located in, whether any

Page 5920

1 shells fell in that area?

2 A. Around my house, and around all the houses, and today, too, when a

3 lot has been reconstructed and built up --

4 Q. Witness, I asked you whether any shells fell around your house,

5 and if so, how many. Yes or no?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How many shells fell during that night on your house or by your

8 house?

9 A. Six fell on my house.

10 Q. Witness, if I tell you that your husband, on page 4011, was

11 interviewed on the 19th of February, 2002, said that in June, five or six

12 mines fell around your house, can you tell us which of the two is correct?

13 A. Please, the war began on the 6th of April, 1992. From that time

14 on, the shelling was not in April, one April and another April. Shelling

15 was throughout the war.

16 Q. Witness, can you tell us who waged the war in Sarajevo and in your

17 part of town? Who were the warring sides? Who went to war?

18 A. I think the war was led by the former Yugoslav People's Army and

19 the Serb army.

20 Q. Did anybody wage a war against those two armies?

21 A. I don't know that. I don't know.

22 Q. Mrs. Fatima, can you answer the following: Do you know whether on

23 the 13th and on the 12th of February -- December, I mean December, in the

24 Sarajevo city area, were there battles for the hill of Zuc and also was

25 there fighting for the Otes area? Was there fighting between the two

Page 5921

1 armies over those few days?

2 A. I don't know. I saw to my children. I was busy thinking what we

3 would eat, how we could get some water. I live in Stari Grad. I don't

4 know where Zuc is. I don't know where all those other places are. I

5 apologise, but I just don't know.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

7 the Defence would like to proffer a document which is in English. And my

8 colleague would quote a passage or, rather, two lines from document

9 entitled "Annex 6 for the 13th of December, 1992." It is a situation

10 report on the front on that particular day.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you,

13 Mr. President.

14 MR. IERACE: I think the usual procedure is that we are provided

15 with a copy of that.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I expected Mr. Piletta-Zanin

17 will give to the usher.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may the document be

19 given a number straight away.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it's D73, is it not?

22 JUDGE ORIE: I'll ask the registry. What was the number of the

23 map which was shown to the witness which was not prenumbered by you, and

24 do you want to tender that into evidence since there were no markings made

25 on the map finally? I think it's not of great use, but I leave it up to

Page 5922

1 you.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] There's no need.

3 JUDGE ORIE: So then the map will not be tendered into evidence.

4 And the next number, Madam Registrar, would then be?


6 JUDGE ORIE: D74. So no number for the map. Is that --


8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Having settled the matter,

9 Mr. President, may I continue with the reading of the passage?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's first see that it's distributed.

11 Yes, please read it slowly.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. After a

13 date, which is the 13th of December, 1992, and in brackets, it says,

14 [In English] "Sunday, activity combat and shelling activity, after BiH

15 forces reportedly gained control of Zuc hill, Serb artillery began

16 pounding the area. Source is Reuters. Targets hit Zuc hill. Source is

17 Reuters." End of quotation. Thank you.


19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, can you confirm that in the part of town and relative to

21 where you live, that Zuc hill is to be located?

22 A. Not where I live, no.

23 Q. Can you tell us with respect to your area where Zuc hill is?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you happen to know that in the period between the 12th and 13th

Page 5923

1 of December, that fighting took place to gain control of Zuc hill?

2 A. I don't know. No.

3 Q. Witness, on the photograph, you indicated to us the direction -- a

4 direction. Can you tell us whether the direction, where it says "Baba,"

5 whether you actually indicated the place where the rock is located?

6 Where it says "Baba" and your arrow, is that where the rock is?

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

8 could the witness just be shown the photograph for a brief moment because

9 I have a question to ask her. May it be placed on the ELMO, please. It

10 is Document 3266.

11 All right.

12 Q. Witness, can you now show us on the photograph the arrow and the

13 word "Baba." Can you show us the direction that the hill or rock called

14 Baba is located? Can you elongate the arrow to show us the direction of

15 Baba rock.

16 A. It's here somewhere.

17 Q. Could you draw a circle around the spot, please. A circle,

18 please, and put in the number 1. Put 1 in the circle.

19 A. [Marks]

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And for the transcript, this

21 circle denotes the area in which Baba rock or Baba hill is located.

22 Your Honour, the Defence has no further questions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic. Let me first clarify that

24 we have one exhibit tendered here in The Hague, which is number P3266. We

25 have a similar -- I should talk about a document and not about an exhibit

Page 5924

1 yet. We also have a document which is in Sarajevo and which is marked as

2 well. So we have two marked documents, but markings...

3 Although usually we use one exhibit number, I would suggest that

4 under these circumstances, the photograph in Sarajevo gets a D number,

5 because it's marked in Sarajevo. Or would we do it differently?

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, could I suggest, there are one or two

7 questions I'd seek to ask the witness.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps we should do that first, and only then

9 talk about the documents.

10 MR. IERACE: And if time is precious, perhaps we could do it

11 tomorrow morning. Mr. President, one of the questions, I confess, may go

12 beyond re-examination. It's one question. I'd seek your leave to ask

13 that on the presumption it goes go beyond re-examination. Perhaps I'll

14 ask the question, and my friend could object if she wishes. If it does go

15 beyond re-examination, of course, I'll be happy to ask further questions.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Pita, a question will be put to you now by Mr.

17 Ierace, but would you wait for a second to answer that question because

18 there might be an objection against it. We'll see.

19 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

21 Q. Mrs. Pita, you said that you saw the bullet that wounded your

22 daughter and that it was hot. Do you know the calibre of the bullet?

23 A. Yes, that's right. No, I don't. I don't understand those

24 things.

25 Q. All right.

Page 5925

1 JUDGE ORIE: The answer was given immediately. Given the

2 answer --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No Interpretation]

4 MR. IERACE: One further question which is squarely within

5 re-examination.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


8 Q. You told us that as you made your way to the toilet from the

9 basement at nighttime, you would see sometimes fire coming from Baba rock.

10 Could you tell us more about the fire that you saw. Was it single shots,

11 repeated shots as in a machine-gun, tracer bullets, or what?

12 A. Mostly they were shells.

13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Nothing further.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Ierace.

15 Mrs. Pita, you've answered all the questions of the parties. There

16 were so many questions that the Judges don't have any additional questions

17 to put to you. Thank you very much for coming and for giving your

18 testimony. This concludes --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

21 Ms. Philpott, tomorrow morning, the first thing we'll do in the

22 morning is to deal with the documents. Especially would you keep in your

23 custody the marked photograph P3266. We'll give a decision on that

24 tomorrow.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 5926












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5927

1 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your assistance.

3 May I also thank the parties for their flexibility to stay until a

4 quarter to 3.00. May I also thank the interpreters for continuing their

5 job beyond the usual times, and the same, of course, as well for the

6 technical assistants.

7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'd like to discuss whatever it is tomorrow

8 unless it is about our Court schedule or time schedule.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Quite. Just to say that we

10 will also produce two exhibits with respect to this witness's statement,

11 if we may be permitted to do so tomorrow, of course.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think I referred already to one, that would be the

13 photograph marked, and the other one would be the --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is why I wanted to broach

15 this matter now. The witness said that she had not said this or that when

16 faced with her statement. That is why we would like to produce her

17 statements. But we haven't copied them. We haven't got copies of her

18 statement.

19 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I understood, you read literally what the

20 witness said. So as such, there's no need for the Chamber -- since there

21 has been no objection from the Prosecution, I take it that you literally

22 quoted her and that she denied having said that during her testimony.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Then everything is clear.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, then. And we'll adjourn until

Page 5928

1 tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom -- same courtroom is not quite

2 sure. Would you please find out -- it will be the same courtroom, Madam

3 Registrar?


5 JUDGE ORIE: It will be the same courtroom.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

7 2.45 p.m., to be reconvened on

8 Friday, the 22nd day of March, 2002,

9 at 9.00 a.m.