1 Friday, 22 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you
6 please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the Case Number
8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, I hope that everyone was duly informed
10 that we'll try to finish the videolink material today. That means that I
11 urge the parties to examine the witnesses as efficiently as possible, but
12 that might be a repetitious request.
13 But first of all, we still have to give decisions on the admission
14 into evidence of the documents tendered yesterday. Madam Registrar, could
15 you please assist us.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yesterday, for the Defence -- for the OTP, we have
17 two documents need to be admitted. One is P3279W, and 3266.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And P3279W is a --
19 THE REGISTRAR: Is a CD-ROM showing the home and -- Ms. Pita's
20 home and where her daughter was shot.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the CD-ROM.
22 THE REGISTRAR: And P3266 is the photo of a tree seen from the
23 porch of Ms. Pita's house.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They are both admitted in evidence. Then we
25 have Defence documents.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. IERACE: I think the CD-ROM is already in evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It was re-tendered, yes. I think it's the same one
5 as has been shown to Mr. Pita when he testified.
6 MR. IERACE: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that would be repetitious to -- no, I have
8 -- it's a different one. Is it slightly different? Yes, then my earlier
9 decision stands. But looking at your list, we have 3280W. It's newly
10 tendered. I see on the list 3280W, and 3266. I think the first one -- we
11 had a video with Mrs. Pita.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, yes, 3280W is the video.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the video -- so that's new. And that's,
14 then, admitted in evidence. And 3266 is the photograph.
15 THE REGISTRAR: For the Defence, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
17 THE REGISTRAR: D74 still remains to be admitted.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And D74, Madam Registrar, is?
19 THE REGISTRAR: It's a document concerning military activity.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the part of Annex 6 of the report of the
21 committee of experts. That's admitted into evidence as well.
22 Let me then check with Sarajevo whether we have a good image and
23 sound link with Sarajevo. Yes, I do not have it yet on my screen. Yes, I
24 have got it.
25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Good
2 morning, Your Honours. In an agreement procedure with which Mr. Ierace
3 spoke yesterday, I wish to inform you that I have to be in Geneva tonight
4 at 1900 so that I will have to leave earlier, and I will not be able to be
5 present here until the end of today's hearing. For that reason, we
6 believe that it would be better if the Defence raised now a problem which
7 has to do with exhibits which were -- will be presumably introduced with
8 the two witnesses, and we have a motion to make in this regard.
9 Does the Chamber allow us to do it right now? It will take five
10 minutes on my part, Your Honour. Not more than that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do it just as efficiently as possible,
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I will
14 now need the help of the usher. Usher [In English], with of course the
15 authorisation of the Chamber.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I've prepared three sets of
18 documents, Mr. President, which all have to do with the witness,
19 Ramiza Kundo. These documents are in the original language, that is the
20 Serbian language, plus English translation. You will see this is a very
21 important factor. These need to be distributed. And there is one more
22 copy, one free copy here.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's quite unusual to distribute them all, but
24 let's just see what you tell us about these sets of documents.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I shall
1 be happy to do that. May I do it now?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Mr.
4 President, the first set of documents has the number 0028-4046. This
5 document has to do once again with the medical documentation. I believe a
6 letter of discharge, the number of which is 47, and I took the liberty to
7 mark it in a coloured marker so we can see, and later on you see document
8 48, which is only the certificate.
9 Mr. President, if we look at two other sets of documents which
10 I've underlined in pink here and there and others in blue, you will see
11 something which is the translation of that same document, but once again
12 in two different versions of this translation. And you will see that what
13 is here underlined very clearly is what exists in one document but does
14 not exist in the other one. So this is the thick line. What is a dotted
15 line, these are the indications which were included in this form and one
16 can find them in one translation and not in another one. And we are not
17 able to see why. But the thing which is most upsetting, which is of
18 greatest concern, other documents were given to the Defence and we wonder
19 why. If you locate, Mr. President, Document Number -- ending in figures
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, what I assume is that you are
22 protesting against translations that are not correct or not reflecting
23 what is in the original language, and that there are two different -- or
24 it's not that?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, not only, Mr. President.
3 What I wish to simply say, and I will endeavour to be as brief as
4 possible, in the translation which I underlined in pink so that everyone
5 can see clearly, there is only one page which was translated, and that is
6 the page which I marked in pink and which bears the signature of
7 Dr. Ivanisevic. This is a page that does not exist in the original, I
8 mean these practically we do not have even two identical documents. And
9 Mr. President, if we take the original, then you will see that the
10 signature, one of the doctors, is that of Dr. F. There is no doubt about
11 that, a capital "F." And then I cannot read it, because it is not
12 properly reproduced, but it ends in "novic." In the translation that we
13 have, and that is the pink one, the pink translation, we see that this "F"
14 has become "Faruk." I do not know how one can arrive at that on the basis
15 of one initial because it could have been Farid, Franjo, Franko, whatever.
16 And you will also see --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, these are, I would say, at first
18 sight, wholly justified remarks on invented parts of the document.
19 That's, as a matter of fact, what I was talking about two minutes ago.
20 Let's do it the following way: The Prosecution is, I think, very well
21 aware that this Chamber is not very much inclined to accept any documents
22 where the translation gives far more information than the original
23 document and is therefore not a true and proper translation of the
24 original text. I'm quite certain that Mr. Ierace is fully aware of -- was
25 fully aware of this problem yesterday, so I do expect that he will today
1 either explain to us why such documents do exist or withdraw any
2 translations, or will not tender documents or will tender them with a
3 certain explanation. So I think we could at this moment proceed and wait
4 and see what Mr. Ierace does, and he's aware of the problem, I'm certain.
5 Is that true, Mr. Ierace?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What the Defence wishes is to
9 formally apply to the Chamber formally, in line with Rule 92 -- 98 of the
10 Rules of Procedure because, as I said, "Faruk" could be "Franjo," could be
11 whatever, so that the Prosecution then is issued an order by your Chamber
12 to produce only integral and original medical documentation because the
13 Defence wastes considerable time to check all these documents. And we are
14 requesting this for the medical documentation, but the same holds true of
15 the documents of military nature which we shall be having. As of today,
16 Defence wishes to be able to work normally. So with all due respect, we
17 are making this application. The Prosecution should be ordered to submit
18 the -- only the original of the documents and nothing else, and this goes
19 for the medical and military documents alike. Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, Rule 98 deals with the
21 production of additional evidence, and therefore I think the system should
22 be that we first wait and see what the evidence is which will be adduced
23 by the Prosecution, and then we'll see. And we took notice of your
24 request that if this was the evidentiary material produced by the
25 Prosecution, that you'd like us to order the Prosecution to produce
1 additional evidence, especially the original documents, medical
3 Mr. Ierace, you are aware of the problem, I think. Is that true?
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, certainly I'm aware that there are two
5 copies of each of the medical reports. I have some trouble in following
6 some of the concerns of Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Others, I understand. I will
7 lead evidence from the next witness as to the nature of medical treatment
8 that she received, and the places from which she received it. And I
9 propose that the concerns that Mr. Piletta-Zanin has, since they go to
10 admissibility and since that is the thrust of his request, be dealt with
11 at the conclusion of her evidence. I suspect that Mr. Piletta-Zanin has a
12 sufficiently legible copy of each of the medical documents which have been
13 disclosed to him to conduct his cross-examination. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first proceed and see where we are at the end
15 of the examination of the witness.
16 Ms. Philpott.
17 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Good morning, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. I take it that you can understand us
19 and that you can see us.
20 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the next witness you want to call is?
22 MR. IERACE: Ramiza Kundo.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ramiza Kundo. Could you please bring Ramiza Kundo
24 into the videoroom in Sarajevo, Ms. Philpott.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Kundo -- I now see two markers. Could we just
2 have on our video -- Ms. Philpott, we have two marker pens. No, I think
3 we now have again the image of Ms. Kundo and you, Ms. Philpott.
4 Ms. Kundo, good morning, welcome, although at a distance in what
5 you could consider to be the courtroom in Sarajevo. Before giving
6 testimony in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you
7 to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,
8 and nothing but the truth. The text of this declaration will be handed
9 out to you now by the representative of the Registry. May I invite you to
10 make that declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mrs. Kundo.
14 WITNESS: RAMIZA KUNDO
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 [Witness testified through videolink]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Kundo, from your reactions, I take it that you
18 can hear me in a language you understand?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You'll be examined by, first, counsel for the
21 Prosecution and you'll then be examined by counsel for the Defence. So
22 I'll first now give the opportunity to Mr. Ierace to start your
23 examination as a witness.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Examined by Mr. Ierace:
2 Q. Ms. Kundo, would you please give your full name for the record.
3 A. My name is -- my name is Ramiza Kundo.
4 Q. What is your date of birth?
5 A. 16th of April, 1955.
6 Q. Have you lived in Sarajevo since 1965?
7 A. Since when?
8 Q. Since --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could the technicians either in Sarajevo or in
10 The Hague take care that the sound is ... You now can hear us again,
11 Ms. Kundo?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE:
15 Q. Do you live in Sarajevo?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. Since when have you lived in Sarajevo?
18 A. Since 1965.
19 Q. Are you married with two children?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. Between 1992 and 1995, where in Sarajevo did you live?
22 A. In Brijesce, and that is where I still live.
23 Q. In what sort of building were you living in Brijesce in those
25 A. In my house, brick house. We built it before the war.
1 Q. During the war, did your house suffer any damage?
2 A. It did.
3 Q. What caused that damage?
4 A. Shells and those shrapnel.
5 Q. In what years during the war did your house suffer that damage?
6 A. In the beginning of the war, 1992, in 1993.
7 Q. How far from your house was the confrontation line or
8 confrontation lines?
9 A. Well, about a kilometre, I'd say.
10 Q. On what side of the confrontation lines was your house? In other
11 words, which forces controlled the area where you lived?
12 A. I don't understand. I don't know. Serb, Serb troops, Serb army,
13 Serb police, they were there, too.
14 Q. In terms of the armed forces during the conflict, which armed
15 forces controlled the area -- withdraw that question.
16 Which forces were on the other side of the confrontation -- which
17 forces were on the other side of the confrontation line from where you
19 A. Our side. Our army, but in the early days, there was no army.
20 There was nothing.
21 Q. What were the forces on the other side of the confrontation line?
22 A. The Serbs were, the Serb army. The Serbs.
23 Q. During the war, did your house have any running water?
24 A. No, we didn't. We were getting the water from the city.
25 Q. How did you receive the water from the city?
1 A. Well, before the war, there was the city water supply. And then
2 later on, we had to go to various springs when they cut off the -- when
3 they cut it off, when we had no more water.
4 Q. Was there a particular spring that you would go to, to get water
5 for your house?
6 A. There were several places.
7 Q. During the war, were you wounded?
8 A. Yes, I was.
9 Q. On what date did that happen?
10 A. It was the 2nd of November, 1993.
11 Q. What were you doing at the time that you were wounded?
12 A. I had gone to fetch water.
13 Q. Did anyone go with you?
14 A. Yes, a woman was with me, Rasema Menzilovic.
15 Q. What time was it when you went to get water?
16 A. I think - I'm not quite sure - but I think it was sometime in
17 early afternoon. It could have been around 4.00 or thereabouts.
18 Q. What was the weather like at that time?
19 A. Cloudy, overcast.
20 Q. You said that you went to get water. How far away from your home
21 was the place that you were going to get the water, approximately?
22 A. About 50 metres or so. Water from my house, about 20 metres,
23 because there was the main road which we had to cross.
24 Q. What was the source of the water? Was it a creek or a spring or
25 something else?
1 A. A spring.
2 Q. Did you, in fact, get some water from the spring?
3 A. Yes, and on my way back, when we were about to run across the
4 road, the sniper hit me.
5 Q. How were you carrying the water? What was it in?
6 A. In a canister, in 10-litre canisters.
7 Q. How many?
8 A. Two.
9 Q. How did you cross the road? Were you walking or running or what?
10 A. Well, I don't know how I was moving exactly at that particular
11 time but I'm sure that I was hurrying. I wasn't walking leisurely.
12 Q. What actually happened as you crossed road? What did you feel?
13 What did you hear? What did you see?
14 A. I heard the shot. When I was hit, I thought it was a stone, a
15 pebble, which had hit me and then I hurried even more. I just hastened to
16 cross the road. I felt the pain, and then I pulled up my trouser leg and
17 I saw some blood. And then I pulled it down again.
18 Q. Which of your legs was hit?
19 A. The left one.
20 Q. Whereabouts on your leg?
21 A. Below the knee.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 A. The calf, the bullet went through.
24 Q. All right. At the time that you were shot, do you know where
25 Rasema Menzilovic was?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. She was with me. I don't know if she was in front of me or behind
2 me. I don't know. I can't remember exactly.
3 Q. Did you hear any sound at about the time that you were shot?
4 A. Yes, I heard the shot.
5 Q. Where did you hear the sound of the shot come from? Was it from
6 straight ahead, from behind you, or from one of your sides?
7 A. It came from the right, as I was moving, from -- about from
8 Serbian lines.
9 Q. What happened after you were shot? What did you do?
10 A. Rasema went to fetch some men to take me over there, to fetch the
11 men who were for the civilian -- how do you call them -- to save me, to
12 take me to the hospital. She went to get a car to come and fetch me. I
13 went to the hospital. They cleaned the wound.
14 Q. What were you wearing at that time that you were shot?
15 A. I was wearing a long skirt and a shirt and a pullover. I always
16 wore such clothes.
17 Q. What colour was the skirt?
18 A. I think it was violet. It was colourful.
19 Q. You said that you were taken to the hospital. What hospital was
21 A. It was in Kosevo. I don't know which street it was in.
22 Q. How long did you stay there for?
23 A. For three days.
24 Q. At the time that you were shot, did you see anyone nearby?
25 A. I didn't.
1 Q. Did you see any military vehicles nearby or military equipment?
2 A. No, I didn't.
3 Q. What about military equipment?
4 A. No, I didn't see anything.
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that a video be shown. The
6 Exhibit Number of the video is 3280V.
7 Q. Mrs. Kundo, in a few minutes you will see a video on the screen in
8 front of you. Please look at it carefully. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, can you confirm that --
10 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, Your Honour. We have it on the
11 screen, but it's not as clear as it has been in the past this week.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If the quality is not sufficient, please inform us.
13 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes.
14 [Videotape played]
15 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Could you please show me, to the best
16 of your recollection, where the corner of the garage used to be at the
17 time you were shot.
18 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
19 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: I will now mark that location using
20 yellow spray paint.
21 "I have put a yellow line and a number 1.
22 "Mrs. Kundo, could you now show me, stand where you were located,
23 to the best of your recollection, at the time you were shot.
24 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
25 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: I will now mark that spot using yellow
1 spray paint.
2 "I've marked it with a yellow X with a number 1 beside it.
3 "Mrs. Kundo, could you please face in the direction that you were
4 facing and assume the position that you were as close as you can -- as you
5 can recall, at the time that you were shot.
6 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
7 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: And finally, can you please indicate
8 from which direction you heard the gunshot, as closely as you can recall,
9 at the time that you were shot.
10 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]"
11 MR. IERACE:
12 Q. Mrs. Kundo, did you recognise yourself in that video?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Did you comply with the requests of the investigator truthfully
15 and to the best of your recollection?
16 A. Sorry, I didn't understand your question.
17 Q. I'll rephrase it. On the video, we saw the investigator ask you
18 to do certain things, to point in certain directions according to your
19 recollection, and to stand in certain places according to your
20 recollection. Is that correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. When you did those things, were you truthful, according to your
24 A. I think that I was.
25 Q. All right. Now, you will now see a photograph on the screen. As
1 soon as the photograph appears, can you tell us that you can see it. The
2 photograph should show a street with a tree and some shrubs on the
3 right-hand side.
4 MR. IERACE: For the record, Mr. President, this is Exhibit Number
6 Q. Are you able to see a photograph on the screen, Mrs. Kundo?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you recognise what appears in the photograph?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. What is it? What do you see?
11 A. A street.
12 Q. What is the name of that street?
13 A. Brijesce Brdo Cikma.
14 Q. Does it have a new name now?
15 A. Yes, Bulbulistan.
16 Q. Now, please assume that the position that you told the
17 investigator as where you were shot is also the position from which this
18 photograph was taken. Do you understand what I'm saying?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. All right. We will now move the photograph slowly to the right.
21 Stop for a minute, please.
22 At the moment you were shot, were you crossing from the left-hand
23 side of the road as we look at the photograph to the right-hand side, or
24 were you crossing from the right-hand side to the left-hand side? Do you
25 understand the question?
1 A. Yes, I have. I was coming back with the water. I was returning
2 home. And that was around here.
3 Q. All right. So in what direction did you cross the road at the
4 time you were shot?
5 A. Towards the house. I was crossing the road.
6 Q. Do you mean by that, you were crossing from the left to the right?
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a leading
11 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is speaking over the witness so we
12 cannot hear him. We are sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: What you said has not been translated. You said it's
14 a leading question. In what respect, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think -- I want
16 to be brief for the sake of the witness. But I think that the fact of
17 saying that you were crossing from left to right or right to left and to
18 formulate it in this manner, I think that this is a leading question.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What other ways of crossing the road are there,
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? If the witness has testified that she crossed the
21 road, it must be from one side to the other or from the other side to the
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can say
24 that -- I could tell you how the question should be formed. For
25 example --
1 JUDGE ORIE: No. If you cross a road, you go from one side to the
2 other side. So it's from the left to the right or from the right to left
3 if the road is there. Is that true?
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if it assists you, in the interests of
5 time, I'm happy to withdraw the question and rephrase it. I'm mindful of
6 the time difficulties we have today.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would deny the objection. But if you want to
8 rephrase it, please do so.
9 MR. IERACE: Yes.
10 Q. Mrs. Kundo, you've just told us that -- excuse me.
11 Mrs. Kundo, you've just told us that at the time that you were
12 shot, you were crossing the road towards the house. Is that the house
13 that appears on the right-hand side of the screen?
14 A. Towards the house, that's right.
15 Q. Is it the one which appears on the right-hand side --
16 A. You can see it up above. My garage is there. But I had to pass
18 Q. All right. So if I can just ask you this question, to be clear:
19 When you say "towards the house," was the house on the right-hand side of
20 the photograph, somewhere in that area?
21 A. I don't know. I don't know, really, whether that was on the left
22 or the right side. I can't find my way around. I don't know.
23 Q. That's all right. We will continue to move the photograph to the
24 right, slowly.
25 A. How can I explain where I was passing through? I don't know.
1 Q. Mrs. Kundo, do you recognise the two buildings which appear in the
2 photograph at the moment?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 MR. IERACE: For the transcript, Mr. President, the screen shows
5 two buildings. The one on the right has a pitched roof; the one on the
6 left has a glass front, solid columns facing the street, and what appears
7 to be a box on the pavement near the doorway, a number of sections in it.
8 Q. Mrs. Kundo, did either of these buildings exist at the time that
9 you were shot?
10 A. No. Garages were there. There was a house but it was destroyed,
11 and another one has been built: The one that you can see on the screen
12 right now.
13 Q. Where was the garage in relation to your home at that time?
14 A. On the same side as my house. That's where the garage was. Maybe
15 20 metres further up.
16 Q. All right. Given those answers, it seems that as you crossed the
17 road, when you were shot, were you facing towards this direction, towards
18 the garage?
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. We will continue to move the photograph to the right.
21 Having regard to your earlier answer, what we see now was on your
22 right side as you crossed the road. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. From the photograph, it appears that the road drops steeply as you
25 move towards the hills. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Beyond the road, according to the photograph, we seem to be able
3 to see a flat green area and a valley with a lot of buildings in it. Is
4 that so?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What is that area immediately at the bottom of the hill?
7 A. We call it the Serbian field. The Serbian lines were down there.
8 Q. We will continue to move the photograph to the right.
9 Are you able to see in the photograph now the path from which you
10 were returning from the spring?
11 A. Sorry, I'm a bit confused.
12 Q. All right.
13 MR. IERACE: For the transcript, Mr. President, the photograph
14 shows --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we didn't hear the
17 witness identify the path that she took when she was bringing the water.
18 I think that my colleague is suggesting to the witness that she should
19 confirm that that is the path she took when she was bringing the water. I
20 think that the witness should first identify the route she took.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the line of questioning is -- I don't
22 know what line exactly you're referring to, whether a question put by the
23 Prosecutor has not been answered. If there's any additional information
24 you would need or if you think the questioning is unfair, for whatever
25 reason, you may object against that. Well, what information the
1 Prosecution seeks to obtain from the answers of the witness is entirely up
2 to the Prosecution, and in cross-examination of course you can seek
3 whatever additional information you need.
4 MR. IERACE: Shall I continue, Mr. President?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
7 I merely wish to record the image which appears on the screen at
8 the moment. There is a mound of a whitish material along the side of the
9 road, and that is slightly to the right of centre.
10 Q. We will now continue to move the photograph slowly to the right.
11 Stop there, please.
12 Do you recognise what appears in the photograph now, Mrs. Kundo?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Are you able to indicate to us where you began to cross the road
15 at the time that you were shot?
16 A. Can you see this little hill?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. That's where I was crossing, towards the garage. That's where I
19 was crossing the road. How shall I put it?
20 Q. By "little hill," do you mean the white pile which is not too far
21 from the bitumen?
22 A. Yes. I think it's sand.
23 Q. All right. Thank you.
24 Mrs. Kundo, you told us you were married. Where was your husband
25 that day?
1 A. He was in hospital.
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'd like the witness to see a
3 document. It is part of Exhibit P1800 and it bears ERN number 0028-4047.
4 Perhaps a copy could be shown to the witness in Sarajevo.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, could you please give the requested
7 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] If Mr. Ierace could please repeat the
8 ERN number. This document has three pages.
9 MR. IERACE: Yes, and whilst this is being done, Mr. President,
10 perhaps it could be distributed here as well. It is the second page, if
11 it helps, of P1800. The ERN number appears at the bottom of the page.
12 It's 0028-4047.
13 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have
16 objections with regard to this document, but I suggest that we make them
17 later so as not to lose time. And I will remain silent, but this is an
18 exception. It is not because I ought to keep quiet.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I never urge you to keep quiet. I always urge
20 you to work as efficient as possible, and you're doing it.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. Is there now a document before you, Mrs. Kundo?
23 A. Yes, there is.
24 Q. Do you recognise that document?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. What is it?
2 A. The discharge letter.
3 Q. When did you first see that letter?
4 A. When they discharged me from the hospital.
5 Q. Do you still have the original of that document?
6 A. Yes, but I don't have it with me.
7 Q. Did you give a copy of that document, or did you hand it for a
8 short time to an investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor of the
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. In what year was that? In what year did you do that?
12 A. I don't know. I can't remember exactly.
13 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
14 Q. Mrs. Kundo, did you sign some statements that were made to
15 investigators from the Prosecutor's office?
16 I'll repeat that question. I didn't have my microphone on.
17 Mrs. Kundo, did you sign some statements that you made to investigators of
18 the Prosecutor's office?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'd like a document to be placed on
21 the ELMO at this end. I don't have copies ready. It relates to an issue
22 which arose this morning. I have one copy.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would perhaps first show the copy of the
24 document to the Defence so that they know.
25 MR. IERACE: Yes, certainly.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give it to the Defence so that they can
2 identify it more.
3 MR. IERACE: I understand that the interpreters have copies of
4 this document, Mr. President. I have one other spare copy, if that would
5 assist you, Mr. President and Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the translators, the
9 interpreters' booth, have no copies. Mr. Ierace?
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my case manager gave them some copies
11 this morning, and I think, going on the nods I can see through the glass,
12 they have now located them.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, we seem to have the copies.
14 MR. IERACE: If it would assist, I don't wish to state the date at
15 this stage, but the witness will shortly --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's first see how we can proceed even under
17 these circumstances. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the document be placed on the
19 ELMO here so that the bottom part of the document is visible.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have received
22 this document. I would like to thank the Prosecution. I would like to
23 draw your attention to the fact -- to a document. I don't know if it is
24 this one but it resembles the document that was mentioned, P1800, but it's
25 not the same, because it contains certain other elements.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first see what happens, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With great interest,
3 Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you put it on the ELMO, Mr. Usher.
5 MR. IERACE: I'd like the document be placed on the ELMO so that
6 we can see the bottom part. All right.
7 Q. Mrs. Kundo, can you see on your screen at the moment a document
8 which has some signatures?
9 A. Yes, I can.
10 Q. Do you recognise any of the signatures?
11 A. I recognise mine.
12 Q. Do you remember why you placed your signature on this document?
13 A. Yes, I do. I was making a statement about my being wounded.
14 MR. IERACE: And I ask the document be turned to page 4. That's
15 ERN number, last four numbers, 0641, and that the top part of the document
16 be displayed bearing her signature and the date. Perhaps the top part
17 could be shown. A bit further. More of the top. Thank you.
18 Q. Mrs. Kundo, do you recognise your name on the screen on the
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Did you write your name there and did you write the date?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. In other words, did you sign this document on the 4th of May,
25 A. That's right.
1 MR. IERACE: I ask that the last page of the document, ERN number
2 0643, which appears to be a photocopy of another document, be placed on
3 the screen and that the bottom part of that document be displayed, the
4 last line in particular. Perhaps the document could be moved up.
5 Further, further. And then we could zoom in on the last line. Perhaps
6 the document could be moved up further. All right.
7 Q. Mrs. Kundo, again, do you recognise your name and the same date
8 handwritten on the bottom of the screen?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Did you write your name and the date on this document?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. Do you recognise the document? And we will zoom it back -- we
13 will show you more of the document on the screen.
14 MR. IERACE: Could the document be drawn down the screen so that
15 more is visible. A little further. Thank you.
16 Q. Do you recognise that document, Mrs. Kundo?
17 A. I do. It is my letter of discharge from the hospital.
18 Q. All right. Thank you.
19 MR. IERACE: I ask that a photograph be placed on the ELMO.
20 Exhibit P1811, and a copy of the photograph be shown to the witness in
21 Sarajevo. To assist you, Ms. Philpott, the photograph shows a two-storey
22 building, plus ground, with some black lines on it, in colour.
23 Q. Ms. Philpott [sic], do you recognise this photograph? Mrs. Kundo,
24 do you recognise this photograph?
25 A. I do, yes.
1 Q. What does it show?
2 A. Well, it shows a building and that car and the crossing, the
3 road. This is the main road, and that is the road that we had to cross
4 coming back with water.
5 Q. All right. I think you said earlier that there was a garage in
6 that area which is no longer there. Is that correct?
7 A. It is.
8 Q. Did you place some lines, some black marks, on this photograph in
9 October last year?
10 A. I didn't. That man who came, Robert, he did that. And he took
11 those shots, and he crossed -- drew those lines.
12 Q. So your evidence is that you did not place these black lines on
13 the photograph. Is that correct?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm sorry, but
15 since I was on the other channel, I heard saying not only "Robert," but
16 perhaps "Robert Barry." That is what I believe I heard from the booth.
17 Now I don't know. It doesn't appear in the English transcript, but that
18 is what I heard from the -- from another booth, namely, that is the French
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm certain proper care will be taken to make
21 sure that the transcript reflects what has been said. Please proceed,
22 Mr. Ierace.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that another document be placed
24 on the ELMO. Again, I haven't provided copies, haven't obtained copies
25 for you, Mr. President and Your Honours. But in any event, I'd seek to
1 have the document placed on the ELMO. Perhaps it could be shown to the
2 Defence first so they can identify it. It's a document that has ERN
3 number 0212-4042.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I do understand that these documents.
5 Also the documents of which -- the five-page document you earlier gave the
6 ERN numbers, what -- could you please renumber them as well? Because they
7 have not the usual pre-numbering. So even if you haven't done it yet,
8 then perhaps during the next break that you'll take care that we have the
9 numbers you'd like to attribute to them.
10 MR. IERACE: Yes, certainly.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the
12 documentation of the Prosecution, I don't know if they are aware of this,
13 but what I see here are certain markings which were not indicated, which
14 were done in pencil, and we do not know whether this was done by the
15 witness or --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the documents are shown to you so
17 that you know what documents are presented by the Prosecutor. The
18 Prosecutor will then ask questions about it. And as we have seen with the
19 differences on the -- what seems to be discharge form, let's just have the
20 Prosecutor proceed. And it's not up to you at this moment to initiate any
21 debate on the content of the document. It's shown to you so that you can
22 identify the document. And of course, then later if you -- during
23 cross-examination or when objecting against the admission in evidence, we
24 can then see.
25 Yes, please proceed.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might that document be returned to me
2 before it's placed on the ELMO.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in view of Mr. Piletta-Zanin's concern
5 about pencil marks, I've obliterated part of the text, if he wishes to
6 view it again to make sure before it's placed on the ELMO. Otherwise, we
7 can simply place it straight on the ELMO.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You'd like to inspect it again, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. We shall see it during
10 the cross-examination, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE: I ask that the document be placed on the ELMO at the
13 page which it is presently opened at. Thank you.
14 Q. Mrs. Kundo, again, do you recognise your signature on a document
15 on the ELMO, the document before you?
16 A. Could you zoom it in, please, closer. Kundo. No, this is not
17 me -- oh, no, it is. It is. It is my signature.
18 Q. All right. When you signed it, did you also place the date that
19 you signed it on the document?
20 A. I did, yes.
21 Q. Was that the 30th of October, 2001?
22 A. Yes, that's right. That's what I see. I can't remember all that,
23 but yes, that's what I see, the 30th of October. Right, yes.
24 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the -- I might have access again to the
25 document briefly. For the record, the page just placed on the ELMO had
1 ERN number 0212-4043. I now ask that the following page be placed on the
2 ELMO so the witness can see the top half. And could we zoom in so that
3 the top part, that is, the part just above the signature, is legible.
4 Please stop.
5 Q. Are you able to read the words on the screen now, Mrs. Kundo?
6 A. Well, I can read this where it says -- where it shows my name.
7 And you mean the 30th of October? Is that it?
8 Q. Yes. Did you place your name on that document on that date?
9 A. I did. Yes, I recognise my handwriting.
10 MR. IERACE: I'd be grateful if we could move the document very
11 slightly to the left, just a centimetre or so. If we could move the
12 document to the left. A bit too far. Back a bit. And could we zoom in
13 so as to maximize -- yes, back a bit. Please stop there.
14 Q. Mrs. Kundo, could you please read out the words above your
15 signature, and please read them slowly.
16 A. I can't see a thing. "Witness's acknowledgment." I don't have
17 glasses. I can't see.
18 Q. All right. Mrs. Kundo, before you signed your statements, were
19 they read to you by an interpreter so that they were interpreted into
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you check that the statement was correct by listening to the
23 interpreter before you signed it?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. IERACE: Might the document be returned to me, please.
1 Q. When you signed that document on the 30th of October, 2001, do you
2 remember these words being read to you by an interpreter: "I previously
3 provided a statement to the ICTY about the incident in which I was wounded
4 by a sniper bullet. Today, I have examined a photograph showing the
5 location where I was at the time, and I am marking on the photograph in
6 black marker the position of the garage which was there at the time but
7 has since been moved. I am also marking in black marker the new
8 structures which were not present at the time I was wounded. I am signing
9 the photograph, and it is to be attached to this statement."
10 Does that, to the best of your recollection -- is that, to the
11 best of your recollection, the contents of a statement that you signed on
12 that date?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What is your recollection now as to who made the black marks on
15 that photograph?
16 A. I remember, yes, Robert Barry.
17 Q. All right.
18 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President. No further questions.
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Is the Defence ready to
21 cross-examine the witness?
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this --
23 Mrs. Pilipovic will take on the first stage, but as I have already said in
24 the beginning, I believe that towards the end of Mrs. Pilipovic's
25 cross-examination, I will also rise in order to address questions of
1 translations of documents and all the rest of it, as I have indicated, of
2 course with your permission, with your leave.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I will give leave to split up the
5 Mrs. Kundo, you'll now be examined by counsel for the Defence.
6 Please, Ms. Pilipovic, proceed.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. Kundo.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Can you confirm for us that in relation to the incident which you
12 tell us happened on the 2nd of November, 1993, that you gave two
13 statements to OTP investigators, on the 4th of May, 2001 and on the 30th
14 of October, 2001?
15 A. I know that I gave statements when they came to my home and asked
16 me questions. But when was it, I really don't know because all those
17 dates and things.
18 Q. Can you confirm for us that what you said to OTP investigators was
19 included in the statement that you signed?
20 A. I believe so.
21 Q. Mrs. Kundo, you told us that on the 2nd of November, 1993, the
22 incident happened around 4.00 in the afternoon. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. Did you -- that incident which happened on the 2nd of November,
25 1993, did you go and report that incident to some authority? When I
1 say "authority," I mean the police.
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. Can you tell us if any of your family, with reference to the
4 incident that happened to you, gave a statement to any relevant authority
5 in relation to the incident which happened to you?
6 A. Yes, my husband did.
7 Q. Can you tell us when did your husband make a statement and before
9 A. I don't know. He was summoned to the Court. But who that was, I
10 don't know. I even didn't know why they were summoning him.
11 Q. Are you confirming to us that that day, when the incident
12 happened, your husband was not at home?
13 A. Yes, I can. He was in the hospital.
14 Q. Isn't it true that your husband was a member of the 2nd Motorised
16 A. He was with the army.
17 Q. Can you tell us, where were the positions of the army that your
18 husband belonged to?
19 A. Well, they were across the road. Now, I don't know -- I don't
20 know exactly, but they were out of the locality, out of the neighbourhood,
21 beyond it. Beyond the road, down there. Our lines mainly went along the
23 Q. Can you tell us how far were what you call your lines away from
24 your house?
25 A. Well, it could have been 500 metres. I'm not quite sure.
1 Q. In relation to your lines where your husband was, too, and you
2 tell us that they were 500 metres away in relation to your house, how far
3 were the positions of the army of Republika Srpska in relation to your
4 house or, as you put it, the Serb positions?
5 A. Well, I would say a thousand metres, kilometre something. I don't
6 know exactly.
7 Q. Can we agree that in relation to your house, first came the
8 positions of the BH army, and then behind the positions of the BH army,
9 that there were the positions of the army of Republika Srpska?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell us what kind of a uniform did your husband have?
12 A. Well, in the early days, they had their own uniforms. I mean,
13 they wore their own civilian clothes. But, later on, they were issued
14 with their uniforms, but I would say it was rather towards the end.
15 Q. Was your husband issued with a weapon, and what kind of a weapon
16 did he have?
17 A. No, he didn't. He had nothing.
18 Q. Can you answer how many -- how much time did your husband spend at
19 the position during a week or a day?
20 A. I don't really know exactly what kind of shifts they had. Perhaps
21 two or three days he would be away. He distributed food. He never went
22 to the front line.
23 Q. Can you confirm for us that in 1992, 1993, 1994, in the area in
24 which you lived, if there were armed conflicts between the BH army and the
25 army of Republika Srpska, or to make matters simpler, whether there was
1 any fighting and gunfire in the area?
2 A. Yes, there was.
3 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to who opened fire in that fighting?
4 Did both sides open fire?
5 A. I know the Serbs opened fire.
6 Q. Can you tell us how often did that happen, with what frequency?
7 A. I don't know exactly. I don't. I know snipers never stopped
8 firing at us, and they shelled, and our men were only on the line or by
9 the line.
10 Q. Do you have any knowledge when you say "yours," you mean the army
11 -- the troops of the army of BH?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Did yours -- did yours return the fire?
14 A. No, they did not.
15 Q. Can you tell us, on the basis of what knowledge are you telling us
17 A. Because I know that ours did not -- that our folk did not open
18 fire. We know that, but we knew when the Serbs fired at us, because ours
19 did not have any weapons or anything like that.
20 Q. In the neighbourhood, in the vicinity of where you live, where
21 your house is, is there a church there?
22 A. A church? Yes. Above me, could be some 500 metres uphill.
23 Q. Can you confirm for us, in that area, the neighbourhood of the
24 church, were there the positions of the BH army?
25 A. No. They had placed a tanker there at some point, but then they
1 had to pull it out.
2 Q. Can you tell us, when was that when that tanker was there? What
3 year was it?
4 A. No, I don't recall. I don't know. I think it could have been in
5 1993 or maybe 1994. I wouldn't know exactly.
6 Q. How long was that tank on the positions of the BH army?
7 A. Well, perhaps about seven days. Not more than that.
8 Q. And during those seven days, did it open fire? Was it -- was
9 there any fire opened from the tank?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. You told us today that the well was 50 or 60 metres away from your
12 house. Is that correct?
13 A. Well, I would say I'm not sure how many exactly.
14 Q. In relation to the well to which you went to fetch water, how far
15 from it were the positions and where was the BH army?
16 A. Well, if that's what you mean, they were about 500 metres from our
17 houses, I mean from our neighbourhood. And they were nearer the Serb
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague just
20 reminds me that it is time for the break. Or shall we proceed?
21 JUDGE ORIE: No. Thank you for assisting me, because I didn't
22 look at the clock.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 thing. I believe we've all noticed it. But for the transcript, when this
2 witness was speaking about the tanker, but the Serb text was "tank." And
3 that is not quite the same thing, is it? So can it be corrected.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I noticed that, and in the next
5 line it says "tank" again. So I assume that there will hardly be any
6 confusion. And as you know, overnight still work is done on the
8 Mrs. Kundo, we'll have a break now for half an hour. And then the
9 cross-examination by Defence will be resumed. So we hope to see you back
10 in half an hour. We'll have a break until 11.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, could you please escort the witness
14 into the Court videoroom.
15 Mrs. Kundo, the cross-examination by counsel for the Defence will
16 now be continued. I see you making some gestures. You can hear me well?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mrs. Kundo, can you tell us where the army of the BH army slept,
22 the army whose positions were 500 metres from your house?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Can you tell us where the canteen was?
25 A. For food?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Yes, I know where it is, Orahovacka. It's down there on the
3 road. It's the main road.
4 Q. How far is that from your house?
5 A. Well, it's quite far. That's the second street.
6 Q. Could you tell us where the headquarters were, or the command
7 post, to which your husband reported for his missions?
8 A. I don't know. I don't know.
9 Q. Could you tell us the name of the local commune to which you
10 belonged and under which the Brijesce Brdo Street comes?
11 A. It was called Marinka Bradovica. Or it used to be called Marinka
12 Bradovica, but I don't know what it's called now.
13 Q. Which municipality did your local commune belong to?
14 A. It belong to Novi Grad.
15 Q. How far is the police station from your house, or the public
16 security station of the Novi Grad municipality?
17 A. It's quite far. I don't know exactly in metres or kilometres.
18 All I know is that it's quite far.
19 Q. Could you confirm that on the 2nd of November, on the occasion of
20 the incident that broke out, no one from the Novi Grad Police Station came
21 to see you?
22 A. No one came.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence counsel
24 would like to produce an official note, to present an official note. It's
25 a document that the Defence received from the Prosecution. The number is
1 0028-4045. The Defence has this document in both the B/C/S and in the
2 English version. Bearing in mind the witness's statement that on the 2nd
3 of November no members of the police station came to speak to her, and
4 bearing in mind the fact that she didn't report this incident, this is
5 just for her to confirm that the allegations in the official report are
6 correct. With your permission, I would like to read this out. I have a
7 sufficient number of copies to provide my colleagues with, copies of them.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you want to tender that document, or just
9 you use it for reading out parts of it?
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I suggest that it be
11 tendered as an exhibit, D75.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a copy in Sarajevo?
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. With your
14 permission, I will read this out to the witness for that reason.
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We can also put it on the ELMO.
17 But given that the witness is not ...
18 Q. Witness, can you see a document on the screen on which in the
19 left-hand side it says, "the Ministry of the Interior, Security Services
20 Centre, Sarajevo."
21 A. Yes, I can see it.
22 Q. Can you see the date, the 2nd of November, 1993?
23 A. Yes, I can.
24 Q. Can you see that it says "official note"?
25 A. Yes, I can.
1 Q. Does it say: "Written on the 2nd of November, 1993, in the
2 premises of the criminal police, for the following reasons"?
3 A. Yes, I can see that.
4 Q. "On the 2nd of November, 1993, at about 15.30 hours, sniper shots
5 from the direction of Depo Zeljeznica, she was wounded in the right leg.
6 It was an entry and entrance wound. Kundo Ramiza was wounded, who was
7 born in 1995 and lives in Sarajevo, Brijesce Street, Cikma, number 8"?
8 A. Yes, I can see that but it's not correct. It wasn't my right leg,
9 it was the left leg, but I didn't make this statement.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. The
11 Defence has no further questions with regard to this document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just for the
14 French booth, the French booth translated this text as being the left leg,
15 whereas the English booth translated it as right -- as the right leg. And
16 in this text it says the right leg.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, Ms. Pilipovic, I do not oppose
18 against tendering the document in evidence because you have presented it
19 to the witness. But the only -- you have read it, and the witness
20 corrected part of it. Is that the relevance for the case, that there's a
21 wrong report? Because when you indicated that you'd present it to the
22 witness, you said that the relevance was that the witness testified that
23 she had not reported anything. Well, of course this letter shows --
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It's still unclear to me because this letter doesn't
1 say anything about reporting anything. It just -- so I don't know. I'm
2 trying to understand what exactly you view the relevance of this document
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence considers
5 that this document is relevant for the Defence, bearing in mind that the
6 witness's statement and she confirmed that she hadn't given a statement to
7 anyone with regard to this incident, and that she had not spoken to
8 members of the police. But that the official note was made on the 2nd of
9 November, 1993, and the witness told us that she wasn't wounded in the
10 right leg but in the left leg. So the Defence considers that this
11 document is relevant for the Defence's case because we believe that this
12 note was not made on that date, and that it wasn't made in accordance with
13 what the witness stated.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say the imprecision of the document as
15 such is the relevance for your case.
16 Yes, Mr. Ierace, that's a different thing as you indicated prior
17 to reading the document. You didn't say anything about imprecision or ...
18 But we'll see then whether this report will later on turn out to be not a
19 correct one.
20 Mr. Ierace.
21 MR. IERACE: Excuse me for a moment, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. IERACE: My apologies, Mr. President. The transcript in
24 English for the reading of the document shows that the birth date or the
25 birth year was 1995. The document comes with an English transcript which
1 refers to the birth date as being 1955. When one looks at the original,
2 which is I think still on the ELMO, it appears that there was firstly
3 written 1995 but perhaps there has been a pen mark change to the second
4 "9" to change it to "1955." I simply --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I take it that this is, apart from a
6 translation, also an interpretation, and I can imagine that someone who
7 draws a report in 1993 will not easily accept that the date of birth of
8 the person injured would be 1995.
9 MR. IERACE: It's merely for the transcript, Mr. President. Thank
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Witness, on the day that you were going to fetch water, were you
14 returning with buckets full of water?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. With regard to the time that you said you were hit, in relation to
17 you at that time, where was your friend who was with you?
18 A. Well, we were together. I don't know whether she was in front of
19 me or behind me. I'm not sure. I can't remember that exactly.
20 Q. During the examination-in-chief today, on page 13, you said that,
21 in response to the question, "Where did you hear the shot coming from,"
22 you said that you heard it coming from your right side. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes. Yeah, I think that was on my right. That must have been on
24 my right. I don't know exactly. I know it was from below, where the
25 Serbian lines were. That's where the snipers shot from.
1 Q. Could you tell us how far -- on that right side, how far were the
2 Serbian lines from that right side with relation to the place that you
3 were standing?
4 A. I don't know exactly. Maybe about 1 kilometre or 800 metres. I
5 can't say what the exact distance was.
6 Q. In the direction that you say came to your right side when you
7 were hit, how far away were the lines of the BH army away from there?
8 A. Maybe 500 metres. They were nearer to the Serbian lines over
9 there. I don't know exactly. There were two settlements there.
10 Q. Witness, can you tell us the name of that part of the settlement
11 of which you said that it was to the right of you, and that to the right
12 of you were the positions of the Serbian lines and they were the lines of
13 the BH army?
14 A. It was the Serbian field. I don't know exactly what it was
15 called. Bacici or something like that. Serbian field, Srpska pole.
16 There was a railway station somewhere there.
17 Q. You said that your husband was in hospital that day?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Which hospital was your husband in?
20 A. He was in Kosevo.
21 Q. Did you tell him what had happened to you?
22 A. I didn't tell him what had happened to me because I was in
23 hospital, and a relative of mine went there to tell him that I was there.
24 Q. When did your husband find out what had happened to you?
25 A. When they took me up to the hospital and I was left there, then my
1 relative and driver went to see him and told him that I had been wounded
2 and that he had to go home because the children were at home and they were
3 on their own.
4 Q. Did you tell your husband what had happened to you?
5 A. Yes, when I got out of the hospital.
6 Q. Did you tell him that you went to the well in the afternoon to get
7 some water and that you had been hit from your right side and in your left
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Witness, you said that your husband, with regard to the
11 incident -- with regard to what happened to you, made a statement.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you tell us who he gave a statement to?
14 A. I don't know to some policemen I think. I don't know who summoned
15 him, but he was summoned and he gave a statement to the MUP, Ministry of
16 the Interior.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has a
18 statement from Mrs. Kundo's husband. It's a document 0028-4049, and it's
19 dated the 13th of September, 1994. The statement was signed by
20 Mr. Hilmo Kundo.
21 Q. Mrs. Kundo, is that your husband?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation Your Honour, the Defence would like
24 to show part of the statement of the witness's husband.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You want to show it or do you want to read it to the
1 witness, Ms. Pilipovic?
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document can be
3 shown to the witness for her to confirm whether the statement -- whether
4 the signature on the statement is that of her husband. I have a
5 sufficient number of copies.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please assist
7 Ms. Pilipovic.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the statement which was
9 written in the Latin script and has a signature in the left corner - it's
10 signed Kundo Hilmo - be put on the ELMO so that the witness can confirm
11 whether this signature is that of her husband.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, you confirm that in the left margin of this document,
15 your husband has placed his signature?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you confirm that at the beginning of this statement, it says
18 the 30th of September, 1994?
19 A. I don't know what ...
20 Q. In the upper part of the statement, it says, "On the 30th of
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you zoom in on to this part
23 so that the witness can see it.
24 Q. It's at the top of the statement.
25 A. My husband went to give a statement.
1 Q. Can you see it says, "the 30th of September, 1994" at the top?
2 A. Yes, I can.
3 Q. Witness, in the second part of the statement, can you see that it
4 says "statement"?
5 A. Yes, I can.
6 Q. I'm going to read part of your husband's statement which concerned
7 the incident that you have spoken to us about and told us how it happened
8 and of which you said that you spoke to your husband about.
9 Your husband stated: "On the 2nd of November, 1994, at about
10 9.00, my wife, Ramiza, took -- went to the well, which is about 50 metres
11 from our house. When she left -- when she got out of the door of the
12 house -- "
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't know whether it's a
15 translation problem, but the English translation was to the effect that it
16 happened, the witness left at around 9.00. The English translation which
17 came with the document indicates at around 10.00. And when I look at the
18 original, it seems to be quite clearly 10.00.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me just see.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't think that this is
23 important, given that I said that in the statement it says 10.00. But in
24 any event, it is in the morning.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think both the text as we have in front of us
1 and the translation seems to relate 10.00. Please proceed.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Witness, I'm going to continue and read another two lines. "When
4 she got out of the door, the house's door, she had a look in the direction
5 of the aggressor's positions in Rajlovac, and she then heard a shot from
6 the direction of the depot, and Ramiza was hit in the area of the left --
7 below the left knee."
8 Witness, have you understood what I have just read out?
9 A. Yes, I have. But I didn't go outside of the house. I had to go
10 further away from the house in order to cross the road to go and get the
11 water. When I was returning, that's when I was hit.
12 Q. Did this incident take place in the morning, or was it in the
14 A. It was in the afternoon.
15 Q. Did you go outside of the house and were you in front of the
16 entrance to your house?
17 A. Yes, I just had to -- yes, I went outside of the house and crossed
18 the road and went to get the water. And I was returning with the water
19 when I was hit.
20 Q. So this part of the statement given by your husband is not
22 A. No, it's not correct.
23 Q. Witness, can you tell us where your neighbour Rasema lives?
24 A. In the neighbourhood, maybe -- I don't know. What should I say? A
25 bit further away from my house. We went to get water together. We always
1 wanted to go together, to prevent someone from being alone in case
2 something happened to someone. In such an event, they could be helped.
3 Q. Before, as you said, you were hit, so before being hit, did you
4 always take that route to go to the well?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How often did you go there?
7 A. To fetch water?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Well, whenever necessary. Sometimes you couldn't -- you'd have to
10 wait for 24 hours because there were queues and you wouldn't be able to
11 fill your bucket up.
12 Q. And before you were allegedly wounded by this shot on that day,
13 was there any shooting in that area and could you tell us whether someone
14 else was wounded in this manner?
15 A. Yes, but not on that day. Muharem Musanovic was wounded when he
16 was going to UNPROFOR, when rubbish was being claimed because this is
17 where rubbish was thrown away. UNPROFOR was there, and the Civilian
18 Protection. They were cleaning away the rubbish, and Musanovic Muharem
19 was hit by a sniper maybe about 50 metres further down from where I was
20 hit. He was taken to a hospital. The UN took him to the hospital, but he
21 died. And afterwards, Osmanovic Fatima, she was wounded in the head, and
22 the bullet remained in her face. And then further down below where I was
23 wounded when fetching the water, Mustafa Poljo was wounded.
24 Q. Witness, do you have any information on when these incidents
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. What do you mean, information? I saw that with my own eyes. I
2 could see that.
3 Q. When did you see that? When did this take place? Can you tell us
4 what the year was and on what day?
5 A. Muharem was wounded before me. He was hit before me. He was hit,
6 and he died. And Fatima was hit seven days after me. Poljo Mustafa, he
7 was hit after me. I don't know when exactly. It was the war, and I
8 couldn't remember everything.
9 Q. Can you tell us whether during that period in which these people
10 were wounded, was there any fighting? Was there shooting in that area?
11 A. No, no, there was no fighting. They were just snipers who would
13 Q. Do you know whether these incidents were reported to the competent
14 organ or to the police?
15 A. I don't know. I know about Fatima and Muharem. But it must have
16 been reported. She was treated in the hospital. It must have been
17 reported. I don't know.
18 Q. With regard to the incident that happened to you, did members of
19 the UNPROFOR come to visit you at the scene of the crime?
20 A. No, they didn't.
21 Q. Did they come to carry out an on-site investigation? Did the
22 members of UNPROFOR come when, as you said, Fatima was wounded, too?
23 A. No, they didn't.
24 Q. Can you tell us which hospital was Fatima admitted to? What kind
25 of injuries does she sustain?
1 A. I think it was in the face, in her nose, and the bullet was lodged
2 in her face. I just don't know what hospital she went to.
3 Q. Does she live near you?
4 A. She does. But she died.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
6 like to show the witness the photograph 1812. It is the photograph which
7 has pencil markings.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is that 1811 or 1812? I see a photograph tendered by
9 the Prosecution --
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 1812.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please indicate? This morning, there was a
12 document tendered by the Prosecution which bears 1811. But if you have
13 another photograph in mind.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, it is a photograph,
15 Mr. President, which ends with 1-2.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Would you then please provide this
17 photograph --
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It is that same photograph, Your
19 Honour. It is the same photograph, 1811 and 1812. 1811.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We only received this morning 1811. If there is a
21 1812, I'd like to have a copy.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have two numbers, 1812 and
23 1811, but they seem to be the same exhibit. There's a likely -- perhaps
24 they are slightly different in these shaded, in these marked parts. I
25 don't know.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we just have a look at the bottom. Are these
2 numbers, that is 0212-4046, 0212-4046, is that the same number? Let
3 me -- could you please, yes, thank you.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I could assist.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The numbers on the bottom are not the same as I
6 see. Yes, please, Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the witness could remove her headphones in
8 Sarajevo, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Philpott, could you please assist the
10 witness in taking off her headphones.
11 Yes, please, Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the witness a few moments ago referred
13 to another incident where someone was shot in the same place, that is
14 Fatima Osmanovic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. IERACE: Indeed, that incident is number 17 of the scheduled
17 incidents, and evidence will be called about that. One of the witnesses
18 to that incident who will be called is Rasema Menzilovic, who was also
19 mentioned this morning in this witness's evidence. She has made a
20 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, and there is a copy of the same
21 photograph attached to her statement. And that copy of the photograph is
22 1812. So I suspect that my friends have inadvertently picked up the
23 photograph which was attached to Rasema Menzilovic's statement and
24 confused it with the photograph which was given to them by us in relation
25 to today's witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. IERACE: And there are differences I think in the markings on
3 the photograph. So 1811 is indeed the photograph which was attached to
4 Ramiza Kundo's statement and which the Prosecution has sought to tender.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, first I'll return 1812 to you
7 and also 1811, which was just provided to us. So if you want to -- the
8 Prosecution has not presented as evidence photograph P1812. So if you
9 want to do it after you heard the explanation of the differences between
10 the two photographs, of course it's up to you.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The photograph
12 1811, that is the photograph I want shown to the witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps, Ms. Philpott, could you please
14 replace the headphones so that Mrs. Kundo is able to hear us.
15 I have no picture on my screen -- yes, now I have the image of
16 Sarajevo again.
17 Ms. Kundo, we'll continue. Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed. Could,
18 Ms. Philpott -- no, the photograph is just here, not in Sarajevo. Could,
19 perhaps, Exhibit P --
20 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] I have a copy of P1811.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps if you put it on the ELMO in Sarajevo,
22 that would be the most convenient, I think, Ms. Philpott.
23 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mrs. Kundo, do you have before you the photograph which you
1 identified as the photograph depicting your house?
2 A. No, it's not my house. It's my neighbour's house.
3 Q. Witness, did you sign this photograph?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. To the best of your recollection, can you tell us where did you
6 put your signature on this photograph?
7 A. I don't know. I don't know. Where I sign it, I have no idea.
8 Q. When you signed this photograph, did it already have these black
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All he did was show it to me. I
14 don't know if I signed them.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
16 MR. IERACE: Perhaps again the witness might remove her headphones
17 very briefly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Philpott, could you please take off the
19 headphones of the witness.
20 MR. IERACE: The reverse of the photograph that was shown --
21 excuse me, Mr. President.
22 Mr. President, the original photograph that was attached to the
23 statement indeed bears the signature of the witness and the date and that
24 of the investigator and that of the interpreter. It's placed on the
25 reverse of the photograph. I'm happy for my learned colleagues to see
1 that. The reverse was not given to the Defence. That is because of some
2 budgetary constraints that we are under in terms of making the reverse of
3 the photographs available. But I should make that clear at this stage
4 where inadvertently my learned colleagues misrepresent the situation. So
5 I'm happy for my friends to have access to the original.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps you'll first, Mr. Usher, show the
7 original to the Defence so that they can see what is on the back. On the
8 other hand, Mr. Ierace, since the back of the photograph seems to have
9 some relevance as well, since part of the statement of the witness was
10 about signing a photograph, I think it would be proper - well, whether
11 there are any budgetary restraints or not - to provide both sides of a
12 document if both sides are relevant. Of course, I'm not asking you to
13 copy every back page of any document, but here it seems to be relevant.
14 MR. IERACE: I entirely agree, Mr. President. And in future we
15 will at least make available some black and white copies of those details,
16 if not colour. I have some black and white copies here now should you,
17 Mr. President, or Your Honours, or the Defence wish to have those copies.
18 Thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic. Did I understand, Mr. Ierace,
21 that you have copies of the back part available so that --
22 MR. IERACE: Black and white copies, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that at least the Chamber can also have a
24 look at the other side.
25 Mr. Ierace, wouldn't it be proper to tender the double-sided black
1 and white copy as perhaps a similar number?
2 MR. IERACE: I agree.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So that's what the Chamber expects the Prosecution to
4 do. And Ms. Pilipovic, when questioning the witness about her signature,
5 would you please take care that the witness is not going to be confused
6 about the absence of a signature when the signature is on the back. So if
7 you're asking her to tell us where her signature is, that you show her
8 both sides, perhaps through the ELMO, of the picture.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst I'm on my feet, in case it
10 becomes relevant during the remainder of the cross-examination, may I
11 inform you that the exhibit number for the statement dated the 4th of May,
12 2001 by this witness is P3673.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Just a moment. P3673. Yes. And the 30th of
15 MR. IERACE: P3674.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
17 Ms. Pilipovic, do you think that the headphones could be replaced,
18 or is there anything else you'd like to bring to our attention?
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, she can have the headset
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Philpott, could you please have the headphones
23 Ms. Kundo, I take it that you can hear us again.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
2 Q. Witness, as a matter of fact, I'd like that the photograph be
3 shown, 181A, because I have some questions I want to ask with regard to
4 this photograph. 1812A?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's not yet. You have to provide the
6 copies, and because it has not been -- we haven't seen it until now. So
7 if you want to tender that, either you prepare copies or --
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. In that case, we
9 can use the 360-degrees photograph, because these photographs can also be
10 seen on the circular photograph.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then could please 3279V be played.
12 Ms. Philpott, can you confirm that the 360-degrees photograph is
13 on the screen in Sarajevo.
14 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, Your Honour. We have the image.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, can you tell us on this photograph, the hill that one
18 sees in the background, what is the name of that neighbourhood, of that
20 A. It's Brijesce Brdo Cikma. That is how it was. Now it's
22 Q. In 1992, 1993, 1994, who had this hill under control? Was it the
23 BH army or the army of Republika Srpska?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no
1 further questions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The interpreters, however, asked the last
3 answer to be repeated by the witness. Ms. Kundo, the last question put to
4 you was: "In 1992, 1993, 1994, who had this hill under control? Was it
5 the BH army or the army of the Republika Srpska?" And we could not hear
6 your answer. Could you please repeat your answer.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our army controlled our
8 neighbourhood, and those other hills, those other hills were held by the
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Mr. Ierace, is there any need for re-examining the witness?
12 MR. IERACE: Very briefly, Mr. President. And I would seek your
13 leave to ask one further question in chief. But perhaps I could first ask
14 the questions arising from cross-examination.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
16 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:
17 Q. Mrs. Kundo, you mentioned three other incidents which took place
18 in the same area where people were shot. One of those was Muharem
19 Mesanovic, and you said that he was --
20 A. Mesanovic. No, Mesanovic, I think. "M-E."
21 Q. You said that he died -- rather, he was shot before you were
22 shot. Approximately how long before you was he shot?
23 A. I would say perhaps -- I don't know. No, I can't say really. I
24 don't know. I don't want to be wrong, but it could have been - I don't
25 know - five, six months. I don't know.
1 Q. You've told us that you were shot in November of 1993. Are you
2 able to say whether he was shot in 1993 or earlier?
3 A. I think it was earlier. Was it that same year or not? I don't
4 know. All I know is that it was before me.
5 Q. You also mentioned another -- the name of another person who was
6 shot, Mustafa Poljo. You said that he was shot after you. Can you tell
7 us approximately how long after you he was shot?
8 A. I think it was in 1994, so was it a year or less after me? I'm
9 not sure.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
11 A. Haska Dudevic was another woman who was hit. She was hit in June
12 1992. She had gone with me to the spring.
13 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kundo.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that completes the questions arising
15 out of cross-examination. I now seek leave to ask some further questions
16 in chief which relate to the occupation of the witness and the
17 identification of her occupation in the medical letter of discharge.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please put the questions to the witness, and
19 I'll ask her not to answer immediately so that the Defence would have an
20 opportunity, although they do know by now what type of question it will
21 be. If there's any objection now, could you please inform the Chamber
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. President. We
24 are talking about the medical documentation -- medical document and a
25 photograph, and I'm looking at the transcript. I do not know if -- I need
1 to confer with my colleague. Excuse me.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MR. IERACE: If it assists, Mr. President, I will confine it to
4 one question as to her occupation at the relevant time.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. May I ask
7 some questions of the witness relative to the medical documents that we
8 saw a moment ago?
9 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with you that you indicated that you would
10 split up your cross-examination. So I was a bit, when Ms. Pilipovic said
11 that -- what did she exactly say? That this would conclude the -- let me
12 just have a look. I asked her to repeat her last answer, and just before
13 -- yes, Ms. Pilipovic, you said that the Defence had no further. I now
14 understand that the situation was that you had no further questions, and
15 since it was indicated that Mr. Piletta-Zanin would also ask some
16 questions, I suggest that we then perhaps first resume the
17 cross-examination. And if you would meanwhile think about the request of
18 Mr. Ierace to put one additional question to the witness concerning her
20 Yes, please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, proceed.
21 Mrs. Kundo, now some additional questions will be put to you by
22 co-counsel for the Defence, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. There was some confusion
23 as to whether all questions of the Defence had already been put to you or
24 not. Mr. Piletta-Zanin will now put questions to you.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
2 Mr. President.
3 Usher, could we have this on the ELMO, please. This is Exhibit
4 P1800. It is the letter of discharge.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, on P1800, we have two different
6 versions, or the same versions, but could you please indicate whether
7 you'd like to have the first page of that exhibit where there is an ERN
8 number at the top or the second page which bears an ERN number at the
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We shall start with the first
11 page. The first page.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put it on the ELMO.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
14 Q. [Interpretation] I do not know if we can all see it. Witness, can
15 you see it? Can you see this document, Witness?
16 A. Yes, I can.
17 Q. Thank you for your answer.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to be sure that we've got the right
19 copy on the ELMO, could you please move it a tiny little bit downwards,
20 Mr. Usher. Yes, that's all right.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, usher.
22 Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Witness, you can see this document, and for the transcript, I'm
24 saying that this is the first document of 1800. Will you please look
25 and read very precisely, please, the name of the head of the hospital
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 which is in the right hand corner, in the last box after the text which is
2 printed. And I want you to read to us very precisely what you see.
3 A. Let me just read this. The doctor's signature.
4 Q. Witness, will you please read the name, the typewritten name, of
5 the doctor? Witness, will you please read out what you see there?
6 A. "Head of the second ward, Lahovic." That is what I see.
7 Q. No, Witness, only the name of the doctor whose name appears in
8 this box. And can we zoom in this box so as to make it clearer.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. IERACE: I object. I object on the basis of relevance. The
12 question seems to be a test of the witness's ability to read the
13 document. If this goes to Mr. Piletta-Zanin's ongoing objection and
14 complaint about the legibility of documentation, then this is not the way
15 to do it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please respond and tell
17 us what the relevance is.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Mr. President,
19 because we think that other documents were given for this witness which
20 were translated, and the translations on which -- the translations can in
21 no way correspond to the text which was disclosed. But could the witness
22 please take off her headphones? If I have to answer in detail, then I
23 would like the witness -- I'd rather that the witness could not hear what
24 we are saying.
25 JUDGE ORIE: There are a lot of Ps in both names.
1 Ms. Philpott, would you please take the witness's headphones off.
2 Yes. Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, having regard to what
4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin has just said, surely the only relevant question he
5 could ask of this witness is which documents, if any, did you provide to
6 the investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first see whether his question was relevant or
8 not. And I see that both parties assist each other in formulating the
9 right questions to the witness, which is, I think, not the way to do it.
10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you asked the witness to read what she sees.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I'd like
12 the witness to read what she sees very clearly because what we have here
13 under Rule 65, we see something else. We wanted the witness to read what
14 she sees --
15 JUDGE ORIE: But you're referring to translations,
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. We don't need the witness to read what is in here
17 whether or not to find out. I mean, I expect that - dependent, of course,
18 on the quality of her sight - that she could not read anything else which
19 this Chamber would read. So I do not see what's the relevance of this
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll have -- I have another
22 line of questioning. May I continue?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the objection is sustained as far as
24 reading the text of the document it is concerned since you did not give
25 any relevance to that.
1 Then please proceed with your next question.
2 Ms. Philpott, could you please replace the headphones of the
3 witness. I have no image of Sarajevo at this very -- yes. We see that
4 the headphones are replaced.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I see that we once
7 again see this document on the screen.
8 Q. Witness, this document, did you also sign this document? Did you
9 put your signature on this document at a later stage?
10 A. I don't know. I guess I did. I don't know. Is it there?
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: How can my learned colleague ask this witness, is
14 your signature there, when it is obvious to him that she cannot see half
15 the document because it is on an ELMO in The Hague, not in Sarajevo.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think you're fully aware of the
18 problem raised by Mr. Ierace. Would you please keep that in mind when you
19 continue your questions.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. This is
21 the reason for which we were opposed to videolinks. Please, could you
22 ensure that the totality of the document is legible by looking at the
23 screen. Thank you. A bit further up, please. There we are, thank you.
24 Just a bit further up, please, for the Prosecution. [In English] Okay, so
25 that we can see everything. Thanks.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I was informed that the P1800
2 document is available in Sarajevo. So I'd prefer it to be placed on the
3 ELMO there because it's clearer for the witness.
4 Ms. Philpott, could you please put the first page of -- yes,
5 that's the one, I think. Could you just move it so that we can see the
6 top and see whether there's an ERN number at the top.
7 Yes, we can see it is.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I think that
10 everything is clear for everyone now.
11 Q. Madam, this document, do you remember having signed a copy of it?
12 A. I don't know. Maybe I did. I don't know. When they discharged
13 me from the hospital perhaps.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness, for this answer. Does this document contain a
15 second or a third or perhaps other pages, too?
16 A. I think that there was only the one page, the page that they gave
17 me when they discharged me.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness.
19 Given that you have this document in front of you now, which is
20 from the Prosecution, at the bottom of this document, and I am being very
21 specific, I said at the bottom where we can read -- where we could read
22 something if it was zoomed in on, at the bottom of this document, can you
23 see, can you read the signature of a doctor whose name would be Kule
24 something Ovic. "K-u-l-e," and then there's a blank, and then "O-v-i-c."
25 A. Yes, yes, I can see that.
1 Q. Madam, could you -- I would be grateful if the technician could
2 make the entire document legible.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Could you zoom on -- okay.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Madam Witness, you can see this document. Can
5 you show us, at the bottom of this document, where this doctor's signature
7 A. [Indicates]
8 Q. Madam Witness, I would like to ask you to read what you have just
9 pointed to with your finger. Could you read out the name of this doctor,
11 A. It says Kupulovic, I think, but I don't know. It has been printed
12 "Abdica," and then "Kulevic."
13 Q. Thank you for having read "Abdic." So Madam Witness, it is not
14 the name of Dr. Kupulovic, I think. Where did you see at the bottom of
15 this document --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we fully understand the kind of
17 objections you have against especially the way this document is
18 translated. This is not the way. I mean, we could ask -- if we wait for
19 another second, you'll ask her to check whether the English translation is
20 correct or not. I mean, would you please stop putting questions to the
21 witness concerning problems that everyone in this courtroom might
22 understand, but the only one who has not a slight idea of what it is all
23 about, almost for certain, will be the witness. So unless you indicate
24 that the witness is aware of these kind of problems and why you assume
25 that she is, I'll prevent you from continuing this line of questioning.
1 So if you want to explain this to us why you think the witness would have
2 any knowledge of it, please go ahead. We'll then ask the witness to have
3 the headphones taken off. If not, take whatever other issue you'd like to
4 touch upon during cross-examination.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I have one last
6 question with regard to the doctor, and I would be grateful if the witness
7 could reply.
8 Was she treated in the hospital by a certain doctor? And I'm just
9 going to check the name in order to make everything clear. Ivanisevic.
10 Mr. President, I don't know if the witness heard me.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, we had forgotten to ask her to put
12 her headphones on again.
13 Ms. Philpott, could you please replace the headphones for the
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they are on.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].
18 Q. Madam Witness, do you hear me?
19 A. Yes, I can hear you.
20 Q. Thank you. Witness, were you seen by a doctor named Ivanisevic in
21 the hospital?
22 A. I don't know. I don't know the name of the doctor who examined me
23 and who cleaned my wound on the following day. I didn't know him at all
24 and I don't know what his name was or anything like that.
25 Q. Madam Witness, what is your occupation?
1 A. I'm a housewife.
2 Q. Madam Witness, what is your exact address?
3 A. My address: Bulbulistan 52. Before, it was Brijesce Brdo Cikma
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just
6 speak to my co-counsel for 30 seconds.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This line of questioning has
9 been completed, and I think that the Defence has now finished with its
10 examination with regard to this document. It will return to it at a later
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Could I now ask that one question, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
15 Further examined by Mr. Ierace:
16 Q. What was your occupation on the day you were shot?
17 A. I was a housewife. A housewife.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President. Thanks.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Kundo, I have a question for you in relation to
21 a photograph that has been shown to you before. Could please the Document
22 P1811 be placed on the ELMO. Yes.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Kundo, you gave testimony that the markings on
25 this photograph were not made by you, but by a Robert or Barry.
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Did you give instructions to him in relation to these
4 A. Yes, I did. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It was you who indicated to him which parts of the
6 building were newly constructed?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And it was you who indicated where the garage used to
10 A. Yes, more or less.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by "more or less"?
12 A. I meant more or less, something like that. That where the garage
13 was, we can't designate the place exactly.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would say that it is an indication which
15 might not be an indication with extreme precision.
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your answers.
18 Mrs. Kundo, this concludes your examination as a witness, I would
19 say in this Court, but of course you're at a long distance from the
20 Court. But nevertheless you are with us. We can see you; you can see
21 us. Thank you very much for coming and giving your testimony because it's
22 important for the Judges to hear the answers to the questions put by the
23 parties and by the Judges in order to prepare the decisions we'll have to
24 take. Thank you very much for coming.
25 And Ms. Philpott, could you please then escort the witness out of
1 the --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before asking Ms. Philpott to bring in the next
5 witness, which is a protected witness, Mr. Ierace, Ms. AF, or E. Let me
6 just have a look.
7 MR. IERACE: AE, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's AE. I'd like to indicate that perhaps
9 we'll take the decisions on the documents after the break. I cannot
10 exclude that we need an exchange of views within the Chamber before we
11 give final decisions on that. So perhaps we could now resume the -- that
12 you now call the next witness, and that the witness will be examined.
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Not just
15 with regard to what we have just seen, but Defence also has objections
16 with regard to the addition of these documents, both the medical documents
17 and the photographs, because they hadn't been disclosed to them in their
18 entirety according -- in accordance with Article 65. And also to the
19 videocassette, the videocassette that we have just seen, and the reason is
20 the one that I mentioned earlier on. It has to do with the chronology and
21 the fact that the investigator, what he said, Mr. Robert Barry, because
22 when what he said -- when he said what he said was before the hearing and
23 before this hearing, one presupposed the existence of a shot wound. But
24 the Defence was not present in order to outweigh this, to present an
25 objection to this. And I mention this because I don't think it was
1 clearly stated before. We have a chronological problem here since the
2 contents of the cassette was entirely referred to in the entirety of the
3 debate. And that is the problem that I want to mention with regard to all
4 the cassettes which have to do with this presentation.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, as it happens, the Defence was present
7 during the filming of this incident. I was with Mara Pilipovic around the
8 corner whilst the camera was running. And that was one of a few incidents
9 that we attended. I explained to her the procedure which was adopted
10 during the filming, which was that neither I nor any other lawyer would be
11 present during the filming. So she and I therefore absented ourselves
12 from earshot and sight of the witness and the other -- the investigator
13 and the camera operators at the critical time.
14 Following the filming, she and I were then summoned to the scene,
15 and Ms. Pilipovic was provided with earphones and she was given a screen,
16 and she then viewed the video which had just been shot. So she viewed it
17 within something like ten minutes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is the recollection of the -- no, no,
19 no, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Ms. Pilipovic, is the --
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my respected
21 colleague just mentioned a working day of ours in Sarajevo, and the two of
22 us were not present when the witness was spoken to, the witness who gave
23 testimony today. We were not present when this video was recorded.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Both of you or neither of you?
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] When I say "both of us," I'm
1 referring to my colleague and myself. Other members of the team were
2 present, and the investigator with the witness who has been heard today.
3 My colleague Ierace and myself did not observe that part. We did not
4 observe the filming.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that there's a contradiction. I don't
6 know whether it's wise to continue this because it might not be that
7 relevant. But perhaps you try to find common memories on visits abroad
8 for you and for you.
9 MR. IERACE: I won't pursue it, Mr. President. But coming back to
10 the tender of the material, at a time which is convenient to you, I will
11 provide an explanation of the various medical reports. There is now
12 material before the Trial Chamber through this witness which should make
13 that quite clear to the Trial Chamber. That explanation will take about
14 three minutes. I'm happy to do that whenever the material is tendered.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me then just ask you another question in
17 respect of the video, because I think it's now the second time that you
18 are objecting on the basis of the chronology. Am I right in understanding
19 that the picture was taken in October 2001?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't
21 remember the exact date of the recording. But are you referring to -- I
22 don't know the exact date for the video, but I could find it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: What I know is that there have been tendered two
24 documents, statements of the witness. One is from May 2001; the other one
25 is from October 2001. Was the video taken in October? It was on the
1 beginning of the video.
2 MR. IERACE: I think it was September, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, after May.
4 MR. IERACE: Yes, September 2001.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm just trying to find out,
6 is it the case of the Defence, before we give a decision, is it the case
7 of the Defence that this witness was not hit by a bullet?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence
9 contests these facts because, quite simply, no evidence was provided to it
10 on this. So it contests the idea that there was a wound inflicted by a
11 bullet, to use your terms.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I heard in evidence today as the
13 testimony of this witness that she was hit by a bullet. So I do not
14 clearly -- and I didn't hear any question during cross-examination as to
15 contest that she was hit by a bullet. So it surprises me, at least, that
16 the Defence now says that there's no evidence whatsoever and that it's
17 contesting --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Wouldn't I expect then questions put to the witness
20 whether she was telling the truth when she said she was hit by a bullet?
21 I mean, if you contest it, if there are no questions about it, then of
22 course the Chamber might assume that the witness was telling the truth
23 during examination-in-chief.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps we
25 weren't quite clear. But I may have remarked that we tried to ask
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 questions about the area where her wound was inflicted on her. We raised
2 the matter of a document which said that I was wounded, on the one hand,
3 in the left leg, and on the other hand, a document saying that it was the
4 right leg. I think that we asked this witness enough questions in order
5 to put the witness's credibility into question. If the witness was
6 wounded, that's one thing. But we say there were documents which said
7 "wounded in the left leg," others which say "wounded in the right leg."
8 So the Defence simply has no other choice but to say that we contest
9 this. And I think that I tried to interrogate, examine the witness, with
10 regard to the location of the wound, and this is what we did.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So you're contesting what was the location of the
12 wound. Okay, we'll keep this all in mind when we'll consider the
14 Mr. Ierace, I think we perhaps have the break first, but we have
15 still three minutes. So if you would use the three minutes you indicated
16 you would need to explain to us.
17 MR. IERACE: I could, Mr. President. The alternative would be to
18 leave the tendering of this material until Monday so that we could make
19 the most of our videolink time to finish Witness -- to do Witness AE and
20 finish Witness AE today. I'm in your hands on that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think, as a matter of fact, since the witness
22 is not available any more anyhow, Ms. Kundo, that we perhaps now proceed
23 with Witness AE, but perhaps nevertheless have a break first. Let's then
24 resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: I hope that both parties were informed that we would
2 be able to continue today. I saw the indication on your list, Mr. Ierace,
3 that the next witness would take approximately one hour. So that we can
4 continue until rather late in the after -- I'm aware of your being not
5 present, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. But I expect, apart from your absence, that
6 both parties will be able to continue this afternoon until we've finished
7 Witness AE.
8 MR. IERACE: That is true for the Prosecution, Mr. President.
9 Mr. Stamp will be taking the next witness, and he is feeling confident
10 that the examination-in-chief will be less than an hour. If we are to go
11 to straight to Witness AE after the break, then assuming that this
12 material will be tendered on Monday, might I be excused from the rest of
13 today's proceedings?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and we'll take our time next Monday to see if
15 there is any ...
16 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Since I expect that it would continue for more than
20 an hour after the break, I think it would be better for everyone to have a
21 break of half an hour now so that we resume at 1.00, and that hopefully
22 we'll end by 2.30 or anything between 2.30 and 3.00. Yes.
23 Then we'll adjourn until 1.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, the next witness you'll call is a
2 protected witness, AE.
3 MR. STAMP: AE.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. STAMP: I think the protection measures ordered were a
6 pseudonym and face distortion.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Face distortion. Let's just see whether it's
8 effective at this very moment.
9 Ms. Philpott in Sarajevo, are you there?
10 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please guide the witness into the
12 Court videoroom in Sarajevo. And we'll check whether the face distortion
13 is effective at this very moment.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Can you hear me in a language you
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I will not call you by your own name, since
19 protective measures have been granted in respect of you. I'll just verify
20 that the facial distortion is effective, and I'll call you by the name
21 "Mrs. AE." Mrs. AE, before giving testimony in this Court, the Rules of
22 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that
23 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. May I
24 invite you to make that declaration. The text will be handed out to you
25 by the representative of the Registry.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mrs. AE. Please be seated.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS AE
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 [Witness testified through videolink]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. AE, you'll first be examined by counsel for the
9 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.
10 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. The first questions I'd
11 like to ask are related to a document which identifies her for our
12 records. And as the document has her name and date of birth on it, I
13 respectfully ask if we could go into closed session just for that document
14 to be given to her. It is marked P3672.
15 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Philpott.
17 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] I was not provided with that
19 JUDGE ORIE: I did not ... Does this mean that you have not
20 Document P3672 in Sarajevo?
21 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] That's correct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then may I ask the technicians whether if we put
23 something on the ELMO here so that it is readable in Sarajevo, whether
24 this could be done without ...
25 MR. STAMP: Are we in closed session?
1 JUDGE ORIE: We are not in private session now.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand, could it be confirmed by the
4 technical booth that this picture does not go to the outside world?
5 THE REGISTRAR: This is confirmed, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It's confirmed. Yes.
7 So please proceed, Mr. Stamp. This was arranged with the
8 technicians before, that whatever document would be on the ELMO of a
9 personal nature would just be for us and not for the outside world.
10 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
11 Examined by Mr. Stamp:
12 Q. Witness AE, I'm going to ask you to have a look at that document,
13 and without telling us what is written, just answer two questions for me
14 yes or no. Do you hear me and do you understand?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. On the document which you see there, do you see your name written
17 on it?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. And do you see your date of birth written on it?
20 A. I do.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then it can be taken from the ELMO and returned
22 to the Registry.
23 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.
24 Q. Witness AE, do you live in Sarajevo?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. For how long have you lived there?
2 A. Since 1962.
3 Q. And I take it you lived there during the conflict between 1992 and
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. And during this conflict, could you say in what district or
7 community in Sarajevo you lived at, without telling us your address?
8 A. I lived at Dobrinja.
9 Q. And what was your occupation during this period that I just
10 referred to?
11 A. I am a pensioner.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm really very sorry, but I
14 see that the question covers 1995, 9-5, and this goes beyond the time
15 frame of the indictment. And therefore, is it relevant to these
16 proceedings? I do not think so.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: I just merely asked her where she lived between 1992
19 and 1995, just to narrow down a period of time. I will get narrower as
20 time goes by in terms of time.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
22 MR. STAMP:
23 Q. Now, during the period of this conflict, did you always have
24 drinking water running in the pipes and taps at your home?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And in those circumstances, how did you get drinking water?
2 A. We went -- at times it would take us half an hour on foot, and
3 under gunfire, we had to go to people who had their water pumps, until the
4 neighbourhood community organised a supply of water or until they found
5 some water and set up some water pumps.
6 Q. Now, briefly, during the period from September 1992 to August
7 1994, what were the circumstances in respect of the conflict in Dobrinja?
8 Was there shelling and sniping in Dobrinja?
9 A. Yes. Day in, day out.
10 Q. And did this -- and could you tell us what type of people this
11 shelling and sniping affected?
12 A. Civilians.
13 Q. Now, I wish to take you to the 12th of July, 1993. In the morning
14 of that day, can you recall where you were?
15 A. I do remember it. I was at a water pump, a private one, waiting
16 for water.
17 Q. Can you tell us where this water pump was at?
18 A. It is -- well, at that time it was called C5 locality.
19 Q. And this C5 locality was in Dobrinja?
20 A. No, it's outside Dobrinja, some 20 minutes away from my flat.
21 Q. Now, is this C5 locality in a district sometimes referred to as
22 the "airport settlement"?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. You were there in the morning of the 12th of July, 1993. Could
25 you tell us from what time did you arrive there?
1 A. On Sunday morning, I went to get some water and stood in the
2 queue. That was the 11th of July. And I wait -- June. And I waited for
3 48 hours. I was wounded, and yet my turn to get water never came.
4 Q. Can I take it from your answer that you went there the day before
5 the 12th, you went there from the 11th of July to wait for water?
6 A. That is right, yes.
7 Q. Did you carry anything with you in respect to collecting this
9 A. Yes, I had those canisters. That's what we call them.
10 Q. Can you recall where you were at about 14.45, or 2.45 p.m., on the
11 12th of July, 1993?
12 A. I was sitting next to a garage door, in the rear seat of a car.
13 It had been taken out from a car, and it was there. And that is where I
14 was sitting, waiting for my turn to pump water.
15 Q. Can you say where you were sitting in relation to where the water
16 pump was?
17 A. The water pump was in front of me. And I sat -- I was sitting
18 opposite the water pump. The water pump was in front of me.
19 Q. What do you mean when you say "opposite the water pump"?
20 A. Well, I'm saying as I was sitting, the queue was in front of me,
21 and I was sitting there on the right-hand side. And on the left-hand side
22 was the water pump across the street.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 MR. STAMP:
1 Q. Can you say where exactly the water pump was across the street
2 from you? Was it on the street or in a yard or in a house? Could you
3 just say where?
4 A. In the yard.
5 Q. And was the water pump at the front of the yard, the back of the
6 yard, or the side of the yard? Where was the water pump in respect of the
7 front gate of the yard?
8 A. There were three steps down which you had to go from the street --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not know, we have two
10 screens here on which we can see at times the witness with her face shown,
11 and the other one distorted. I'm just drawing your attention to it.
12 Otherwise, we have no problem with it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: This has been explained before, that in this
14 courtroom, everyone can see the face of the witness. But outside the
15 courtroom, that's what is shown on the video channel. Yes, please.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
17 MR. STAMP:
18 Q. I was asking you where in the yard was this water pump. You could
19 start by telling us was it to the front, to the back, or to the side of
20 the yard?
21 A. In the front.
22 Q. Did that yard have a gate to enter into the yard?
23 A. Yes, it did.
24 Q. And can you say approximately - you don't need to be exact - just
25 approximately how far the pump was from the gate entering into the yard?
1 A. Well, could have been 3, maybe 4 metres. Not more than that.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, you said you were waiting for your turn to pump
3 water. Were there other people there waiting for water?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in respect to the gate to the yard and the position where the
6 pump was, were there other people there?
7 A. Yes. A queue.
8 Q. Were these people civilians or military personnel?
9 A. They were all civilians. There were no military there.
10 Q. While you sat across the street, did anything in particular happen
11 that afternoon? Did you see anything happen?
12 A. I saw when a shell fell and hit a man at the back, the nape of his
14 Q. You said you saw when a shell fell. Can you tell us exactly what
15 you saw. Did you see a shell, or could you describe simply what you
17 A. I was sitting, me and my neighbours, and we did not hear the
18 shot. I just felt some heat hit me in the face. And when I looked up,
19 all I could see was blood, flesh, pieces of body flying all over,
20 screams. I never even felt then that I had been wounded, too. It was
21 sheer horror, I mean. Four or five families were, I mean, destroyed or
22 killed. Terrible.
23 Q. You said you saw the shell hit a man. Could you describe to us
24 exactly what you mean. Tell us exactly what you saw.
25 A. I saw exactly when something hot, white-hot rod, hit him in the
1 neck. When I looked up, he was blown to pieces. There was no way of
2 knowing who it was and how he was.
3 Q. Can you say about where this person was standing?
4 A. The man was leaning against a gate, the gate of that yard. He was
5 just leaning against it at the moment when the shell fell.
6 Q. Witness, I understand it is difficult for you. But I'm going to
7 ask you to recount briefly what you saw and who you saw after this man was
8 blown to pieces. If you need time, you could just take a couple minutes
9 to compose yourself.
10 A. No, I don't need a break. I saw -- we were sitting there when the
11 shell fell and blew that man to pieces. I hid under the steps. A mother
12 with two daughters whom I knew, whom I knew well, and their father and
13 husband, he was pumping water. He was wounded, too. I hid -- I went to
14 the left and hid under the steps which were leading into the building.
15 And when this man --
16 Q. One moment. You said the man was wounded. Do you know what
17 happened to his wife and two daughters?
18 A. His wife and one of the daughters were killed on the spot. They
19 were -- their bodies were completely charred. The other daughter lost a
20 leg and an arm, and she died on the way to hospital. And another young
21 woman who was studying, doing her last year of medicine, and her mother,
22 they also died in front of me. A woman who was in front of me, youngish,
23 I think she was all -- the fragments of the shell had pierced, it had
24 punched her body through all over. She was horrible to see. There were
25 18 dead, 29 wounded. Blood was streaming. It was a horror.
1 Q. You said you hid on some stairs.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did you remain there or did you do anything after that?
4 A. When the father of those two girls came out, when he came from the
5 pump and when he saw his wife and his daughter, he started screaming.
6 When he saw the other one, he cried out, "Oh, Nagiba [phoen], my child,
7 not you, too." And then I got out from under the stairs. But when I saw
8 all that, I fled to the other yard where everybody else had fled after the
9 shell had fallen. I didn't even realise I had been wounded until a
10 neighbour told me that I was -- that my head was bleeding, that my arm was
11 bleeding. And that neighbour's son put a piece of cloth on my head to
12 stop bleeding, and also bandaged my arm. And then he took me to the
13 asphalt road, and the ambulance car had arrived meanwhile. And I know
14 they put me in that car, and then I fainted. And I knew nothing else. I
15 came to again in the hospital.
16 Q. Which hospital were you taken to?
17 A. Dobrinja Hospital.
18 Q. And were you treated there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you admitted or were you discharged that day?
21 A. No, I was immediately admitted into the hospital.
22 Q. For how long did you remain there?
23 A. For five days.
24 Q. You said you were injured. To what part of your body?
25 A. My right arm, above the elbow; my head; and my ribs on the right
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. When you arrived at Dobrinja Hospital on the 12th of July, at the
3 time of your arrival, were you conscious or unconscious?
4 A. When I arrived in hospital, I came to. I had been unconscious in
5 the ambulance. But when I entered the ambulance, I fainted. But it's
6 very near if you go there by car. It's not very far.
7 Q. When you came to in the hospital, what did you see there? What
8 was the circumstances in the hospital at that time?
9 A. It was terrible. There was no electricity on that day. They were
10 repairing the generator. There were 29 wounded people. They were
11 seriously wounded, people who were more seriously wounded than I was.
12 But we had good doctors there, good specialists, thank goodness. And they
13 treated us. They turned the generator on, and then they started taking
14 care of the wounded.
15 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your leave, may I
16 show the witness Document P3365?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
18 MR. STAMP: I think that document should be on the other side in
19 Sarajevo, but the document has the name of the witness on it, so I would
20 ask if that part be obscured, the name and the address of the witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand, Mr. Stamp, that none of the pictures
22 of confidential documents will be broadcasted to the outside world.
23 MR. STAMP: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It has been confirmed to me before this Court session
25 and in the beginning again. So if it's put on the ELMO, it will not be
1 broadcasted out of this courtroom.
2 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Witness AE, do you see that document?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And the date on it is the 12th of July, 1993?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. Does the document bear your name and address?
8 A. Yes, it does.
9 Q. And also the year of your birth? Do you see that there?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. To the top left hand corner, it says, "General Hospital, Dobrinja,
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This document is a medical record in respect to your injury on the
15 12th of July, 1993, is it?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 MR. STAMP: It could be removed now.
19 Q. Can you, Witness, recall the name of the man whose wife and two
20 daughters died?
21 A. Yes, I can.
22 Q. What is his name?
23 A. Rasim. Rasim.
24 Q. And do you recall the name of the young lady who had a year to
25 complete her studies, and her mother? Do you recall those names?
1 A. The girl, yes, the girl was Stela. But the mother's name, no, I
2 can't remember that.
3 Q. And finally -- not yet, but that day, in the immediate vicinity of
4 where the shell landed, was there any shooting or shelling that day before
5 that shell landed?
6 A. No, there wasn't.
7 Q. You said that there was regular shooting and shelling in Dobrinja.
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. However, you went to this water pump and remained there from the
10 Thursday until -- I beg your pardon. From the 11th until the time it was
11 shelled on the 12th. Can you say why you waited there?
12 A. We had to get water from somewhere. We didn't have any water. We
13 had to cook and wash things. It's impossible to live without water.
14 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Witness AE.
15 Thank you, Mr. President. That will be the examination-in-chief.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
17 Is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But
19 before I have to ask whether I could be authorised to ask the witness to
20 take her earphones off. This will take a little time. I apologise for
22 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that it's something that should be
23 raised before the cross-examination. Okay.
24 Please, Ms. Philpott in Sarajevo, could you take the headphones
25 from the Witness AE.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Let me just ... Yes, I see.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.
3 Mr. President, this is the question that I have: The Prosecution has just
4 provided us with a document, 3365, P3365. You have it before you. This
5 document is written in the Serbian language. The Prosecution has added to
6 this a document P3365.1, and this is the translation. Mr. President, if
7 you compare these two documents, and I don't think it's necessary to be a
8 linguist in order to notice this, you will see that the lower part of the
9 diagnosis which finishes with the expression in Serbian "check-up twice a
10 day," this part has not been translated, but it is legible. And you said
11 I was not a doctor, and quite rightly, sir - I can't understand this
12 either in Serbian or in English - but I would appreciate to have a
13 complete translation in English. Would it be possible to provide an
14 entire translation in English so that I can cross-examine the witness in a
15 useful way? Otherwise, I think that yet again we will not be in a
16 position to do so.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, could you explain why there's no full
18 translation of this document?
19 MR. STAMP: The -- this document is the official translation that
20 we got from the unit responsible. As to why there is no further
21 translation, it does not on its face tell us that. And I don't know if it
22 has anything to do with whether or not there were certain words there
23 which could not be translated.
24 Beyond that, I can't explain further. However, as far as the
25 English version is concerned, I could make inquiries of the CLSS if one
1 could provide it and, if not, why. Looking on the document myself, it
2 seems to indicate -- well, I will not read what it says. But I think the
3 contents of it are pretty clear. And I would need time to give the Court
4 a full translation of these four lines.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think among those most
6 bothered by not having a translation, perhaps you're not one of them.
7 Since whatever is in the B/C/S language, as we call it, I think you could
8 read it. And so therefore, fortunately Defence is the party who could
9 effectively cross-examine the witness on whatever is there in B/C/S.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you
11 for this remark. But it is up to you to judge and not up to the Defence,
12 and the documents that you will have before you are translations which are
13 not complete. And I ask myself why, what is legible, is not being
14 translated and what is illegible is being translated. So there is a
15 complete confusion here. And the Defence cannot accept this. I will
16 cross-examine this witness, but with the reservation that I will be
17 unaware of certain facts partially or completely. That depends.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have two different issues here, I think,
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. The first is whether the Defence is able to
20 cross-examine the witness; the second is whether the Chamber would finally
21 accept the document without a proper translation. So I think the first
22 question could be answered in a positive way. I think if there's anyone
23 in this courtroom who can read the content of the document, it would be
24 the Defence. So I think the Defence may proceed in cross-examining the
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: On the other hand, I can imagine that part of the
3 not-translated part is, for example, medication. I could imagine that
4 that is to some extent perhaps the reason why it's not translated. But
5 that's no justification not to translate it. But just in order to assist
6 you, that if you read I think it's general knowledge that, for example,
7 the word penicillin refers to medicaments. If you look at numbers, that
8 is the usual way of writing down what medication a patient should receive.
9 So if it would assist you perhaps for those parts that are not written in
10 B/C/S, I have been glad to do it.
11 So I would now give the opportunity to the Defence to
12 cross-examine the witness. And of course, we have noted your objections
13 against the use of this untranslated document by the Prosecution.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we first ask --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, the microphone.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ms. Philpott to put the headphone on again.
19 Mrs. AE, you'll now be examined by counsel for the Defence.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Madam Witness, can you hear me?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Good day to you. Madam Witness --
24 A. Good day.
25 Q. Thank you. Madam Witness, you said that, just a minute ago,
1 during the examination-in-chief, that you had seen an object which was
2 warm and which hit a man in the neck. Can you confirm this?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you for this answer. Madam Witness, at the time of the
5 events, did you know the name of this man?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Witness, however, you were very categorical, it is a man who is in
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How old was he, more or less, in your opinion?
11 A. About 60 years old.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 Witness, about how many people were waiting - I would like you to
14 remind me of this - in the street?
15 A. Maybe about 50 or 60 people. I don't know exactly.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 I would like us to be able to visualise this. These people, were
18 they aligned? Were they standing one behind the other?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. On the same side of the road, Madam Witness?
21 A. No. I was sitting on the right side and the line was on the left
23 Q. No, but, Madam Witness, I mean there was only one line of people,
24 or were there several lines?
25 A. I don't know exactly how many lines. More or less. There were 50
1 or 60 people there.
2 Q. Witness, could you be more precise and tell us exactly where the
3 pump was located exactly? Could you tell us at what spot in very precise
5 A. The street is not very wide, perhaps a metre -- perhaps between a
6 metre and a half and two metres. There were three steps there. You go
7 down to the yard. And then it was perhaps 3 or 4 metres from the gate.
8 That's where the pump was.
9 Q. Madam Witness, so the pump was located in the yard or was it in
10 the street?
11 A. Yes. In the yard.
12 Q. Very well. In the yard.
13 And you said that the road leading there was a very narrow road.
14 Is that correct?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Madam Witness, as we have a transcript in another language which I
17 am reading now, could you remind me of the width of this street? You said
18 that perhaps a metre and a half or two metres. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you, Madam Witness. I have another question concerning this
21 incident. What did this pump look like? How could one recognise it?
22 A. It was in the earth. There was a pipe which was dug into the
23 earth. There was a pump, a handle, and you would just pump the water
25 Q. How high was this pump, if you can remember?
1 A. Maybe a metre and a half, something like that.
2 Q. Thank you, Witness. I would now like to, without trying to name
3 the street where this happened, madam, could you confirm how far in metres
4 it was from that street which you have just mentioned and the first
5 areas -- the first airport areas, the beginning of the grounds of the
6 airport? Have you understood my question?
7 A. Yes, I have. But I don't know.
8 Q. Witness, and I'm talking about the initial -- the beginning of the
9 grounds of the airport. Were they far away or were they near the site of
10 the incident?
11 A. Well, it wasn't very far, but it wasn't very near, you know.
12 Q. Madam Witness, if you know how many streets there were between the
13 street where the incident happened and the beginning of the grounds of the
14 airport -- do you know this?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Thank you for this answer.
17 Witness, as far as you know, how far -- what was the distance
18 separating the place that we're talking about from the closest front
20 A. Perhaps about 50 metres.
21 Q. Thank you for this answer.
22 Madam Witness, as you stated that you stayed for about 48 hours in
23 the line, more or less, I'm going to ask you a question concerning this
24 period of time. Do you know if during this period of time, these 48 hours
25 that we are interested in, a police officer or someone representing the
1 police in Sarajevo came to indicate -- to tell the people that it was
2 dangerous to queue up because it was too close to the confrontation
3 lines? Are you aware of such a fact?
4 A. Well, we were warned by the police -- by our police, but we had to
5 go and get water. I don't know how else one could get by. You had to
6 have water in the house.
7 Q. Madam Witness, have I understood you well if I consider that the
8 authorities of Sarajevo had warned you of a real risk relating -- which
9 was the result of the proximity of the confrontation lines?
10 A. I don't understand your question.
11 Q. I will repeat it, Madam Witness. You said that the authorities,
12 that is to say, your police, had warned you. Is that correct? Have I
13 understood you correctly?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I see that you agree with that. Thank you.
16 Madam Witness, were you warned of the existence of such a risk?
17 Is that true?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Madam Witness, was this risk really connected to the proximity of
20 the confrontation line?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Madam Witness, what was this risk related to?
23 A. Well, the risk concerned you leaving your house every day. You
24 could be killed.
25 Q. But, Madam Witness, would you agree with me in saying that you
1 risked being wounded and there was a greater probability of this happening
2 if you were near the line of confrontation or at the line of
3 confrontation, and the risk was greater than if you had been at a distance
4 from this line?
5 A. I don't agree with you.
6 Q. I respect that, Witness. I respect that.
7 Witness, I go back to that neighbourhood. Are you aware of some
8 military targets or facilities near the place of the incident?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Witness, you said that you had lived in Sarajevo throughout the
11 war. Is it that you never heard of a tunnel under the airport, under
13 A. Yes, but there was no tunnel at the time.
14 Q. Witness, you say that the time of that shot, the tunnel was not in
15 existence. Is that it?
16 A. It was not there. No, it wasn't.
17 Q. So as to make your answer quite clear, when you say "no," are you
18 telling us that a tunnel did not exist at the time? Is that how I should
19 understand you?
20 A. That is correct, yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I need to confer for a minute,
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, since you tell us that a tunnel was not there at the
1 time, can you tell us when is it that the tunnel in question appeared
3 A. I wouldn't know.
4 Q. Witness, how can you then be certain whether the tunnel was there
5 or was not there if you do not know since when it was there or when it
6 came to be there?
7 A. Sir, I know that it had not been built in 1993. When -- I know
8 that it was built eventually, but I do not know when.
9 Q. Witness, did you see in Dobrinja, because that is where you lived,
10 did you see any soldiers of the so-called Bosnian Army?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you for that answer.
13 Witness, do you know which brigade had its headquarters or was
14 quartered in Dobrinja?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you know, Witness, where was the headquarters of that brigade?
17 A. I don't.
18 Q. Witness, you said that you were aware of the presence of the army
19 in Dobrinja. Did you see those soldiers frequently?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Witness, these soldiers, did they carry weapons?
22 A. Not when they would be walking in the streets.
23 Q. Witness, did those soldiers wear uniforms?
24 A. Yes, they did.
25 Q. Can you, then, into words describe those uniforms?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Camouflage uniforms.
2 Q. Witness, do you know where the barracks was or where those
3 soldiers slept?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Witness, did you ever see any barracks in Dobrinja, military
7 A. There were no barracks in Dobrinja.
8 Q. Witness, were there any trenches in the proximity of the site of
9 the incident?
10 A. Perhaps some 50 metres away.
11 Q. Did you see those trenches?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Witness, who was in those trenches?
14 A. You mean at the time when I was wounded? There wasn't. I
15 couldn't see. I didn't see trenches from there. I simply was aware of
16 trenches around there.
17 Q. Now, I'm asking you generally. In the trenches that you mentioned
18 that were some 50 metres away, who generally was in them during the war,
19 which side?
20 A. Soldiers.
21 Q. Yes, I understand that there were soldiers, madam. But which --
22 what soldiers? Were they soldiers of the Sarajevo army, the Bosniak army,
23 or somebody else?
24 A. The soldiers of the Bosnian Army who were defending us.
25 Q. Thank you, Witness. You said a moment ago that the soldiers whom
1 you saw in the streets were -- did not have any weapons. Are you
2 confirming -- will you confirm that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Witness, is it because they had left their weapons in the
6 A. Well, believe me when I say I do not know that.
7 Q. Madam, if there was fighting, would it be the principle that the
8 defenders, as you called them, in the trenches, would they be armed?
9 A. Well, they had to be armed, of course.
10 Q. Witness, those trenches, did they exist at the time of the
11 incident between -- no -- between the 11th and the 12th of July, 1993?
12 A. I wouldn't know.
13 Q. Witness, the soldiers that you saw in the street, where would they
14 be? Where were they going?
15 A. Well, to the front lines. I don't know. That is my guess. How
16 can I know where they were headed?
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I need two minutes to confer,
18 Your Honour.
19 [Defence counsel confer]
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like
21 to suggest to Mrs. Philpott, we have yet another map in reserve, and that
22 is a Sarajevo map, and we would like to show it to the witness so that the
23 witness points out certain things on this map, if that is possible, with
24 your help.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Philpott, would you please put the map on
1 the ELMO.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Your Honour, I have two different
3 maps by the Defence. If they would just indicate which map they would
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you guide Ms. Philpott?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Oh, yes. I'm sorry,
7 Mr. President. I was confirming. It is a map on which to the right we
8 see a large letter, capital letter, and then words "Novi Grad," new town.
9 And then we see the airport area --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, what is the number?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- at the bottom. We did not
12 mark it. It will be D, but we still do not have a number. We were
13 awaiting to be given a number. I believe that Ms. Philpott has found it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Ms. Philpott, if you can hear
16 me, with the Chamber's leave, may I guide you? Mr. President, may I
17 guide the registrar?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may do so.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Yes,
20 Ms. Philpott.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
22 MR. STAMP: May I just inquire if there's a copy of that map
23 available for us to see on this side?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it is a map that has been used before
25 several times but nevertheless I can imagine that the Prosecution is not
1 prepared. Have you copies, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, we shall be very happy to
3 give some copies to the Prosecution. But that is indeed the map that has
4 been used very often. I do not know if we can have a clearer image
5 because I'm afraid it is rather vague.
6 No, my screen is quite dark, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's a matter of fact it's the light in
8 Sarajevo put on the -- I think it's becoming clear now, but now too
9 clear. Somewhere -- yes, this is, I think, the best we had until now.
10 Would you have copies for the Chamber as well, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't think
12 that we can get it any clearer than this. But I am going to ask
13 Ms. Philpott that she puts -- that she moves up this map slightly so that
14 we can see the airport area. Yes. Can you put it up? Very good. I
15 think this is it.
16 Just a moment, Mr. President. Right. I believe now that we have
17 this area.
18 Thank you very much, Ms. Philpott.
19 I believe we have Novi Grad here in the upper part -- upper right
20 part of the screen. And then down diagonally the runway of the airport.
21 Q. Can you hear me, Witness?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Can you see this map in front of you over there in
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you make out what it says? Can you read it?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Why, Witness, can't you read this map?
4 A. Because these are not my reading glasses. I have to look for
5 another pair of glasses in my handbag. If I may just get another pair of
6 glasses. Then I'll be able to read it.
7 Q. We shall ask to blow it up -- to blow up this image in Sarajevo.
8 I do not know if you can do it, and tell us if you can read it then or
9 not. And then we shall ask the technical booth to zoom it as much as
10 possible. There. Stop. Stop. Stop. Thank you. Stop.
11 Witness, can you read it now?
12 A. Yeah, I can.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can the technical booth now
15 move it to the right. [In English] Move it slowly to the right. Stop.
16 Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.
17 [Interpretation] Slightly to the -- [In English] Right again,
18 please. No. A little bit more to the right, please. This way, this way,
19 this way. That's the left. Move it to the right.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have to be clear on whether
21 the map has to be moved or the camera has to be moved to the right,
22 because that gives a different effect.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] I was talking about the image, of
25 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] The only way that this is possible is
1 if the map is moved.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Would you please move,
3 [Interpretation] Ms. Philpott, so that we can see the lower right part of
4 the Sarajevo airport, please. There. And slightly to the left, now.
5 This whole exercise seems to be very difficult.
6 Ms. Philpott, can you please move it to the left so that we can
7 see both the top of the airport and the bottom of the locality of
8 Dobrinja? Can you manage to do that? I will ask the technical booth to
9 once again that they reduce the image on the screen because I believe it
10 will then be easier and then we should be able to zoom in on the
11 particular spot.
12 Now, will you move the map to the right, please, Ms. Philpott?
13 There. There you are. Just a little bit more, please. Thank you. Thank
14 you. That will be fine.
15 Technical booth, can you now zoom in the area -- stop, stop.
17 Q. Witness, can you point -- perfect.
18 Witness, can you please point now at the area where the incident
19 happened. Can you do that?
20 A. I can't. I can't read this. I can't find my way about it. I
21 know nothing about it.
22 Q. Madam, is it that you do not understand my question, or is it that
23 you can't get your bearings on the map?
24 A. I can't get my bearings here.
25 Q. Witness, do you see, and I'm not asking you any names but can you
1 see a bulevar which I believe is called Mimar Sinana?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you see it? And in relation to that, do you know it?
4 A. I don't.
5 Q. Very well. Witness, then do you see this bulevar which you don't
6 know, a street which I think is -- I think it says Louis Posteur.
7 A. No, it's Louis Pasteur.
8 Q. Oh, yes indeed. So sorry. Yes, Louis Pasteur Street. Do you see
10 A. I do.
11 Q. Thank you. Witness, in relation to that street, can you identify
12 the street where the incident or incidents happened?
13 A. I don't know.
14 MR. STAMP: I'm not objecting.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP: May I suggest in the interests of economy of time that
17 we could agree to the location where the incident took place.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If the parties could agree upon that, we don't have
19 to ask --
20 MR. STAMP: -- which is marked using the latest technology, and
21 the tunnel marked with various places -- if we could agree on that map,
22 then perhaps we could move very quickly in respect to the location.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it was in relation to these kind of
24 exercises that the Chamber invited both parties to present a map. We
25 haven't received it yet, but would there be a possibility,
1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to compromise on the location of the incident?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I think
3 so. But what we can do, I will guide the witness so that we can see if
4 that is it. But the problem is not so much the problem of the tunnel now
5 that we are concerned with. About that, we can agree. But it's those
6 trenches which the witness said were 50 metres away, and I thought that
7 the witness could then point to them on the map.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may continue questioning. But
9 I do remind you, just in order to have an idea on what problems we might
10 encounter in assessing the probative value, that the witness has three
11 times said already -- well, more or less that she can't read maps. At
12 least, she can't find her way on this map. So but please proceed, but
13 please keep that in mind.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 Q. Madam, on this map that you have before you, as it is now
16 positioned on the screen, do you see in the lower part of the image which
17 represents the built-in part, do you read a number 153? Can you see those
18 three figures?
19 A. No. Oh, yes, I do.
20 Q. Thank you for that answer, Witness.
21 Witness, since you see that, this street that is below the street
22 called Louis Pasteur, was it more or less the site of this incident?
23 A. Believe me when I say that I don't know because I simply don't
24 understand. I cannot read this.
25 Q. Very well, Witness.
1 Can you then, on this map, and this will be my last question to do
2 with the map, can you point at two things: one, the existence of
3 trenches? Can you do that? Can you tell us their position?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you for that answer. And this tunnel that you know was not
6 there, allegedly, in July 1993, do you know where it was?
7 A. No.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No more questions,
9 Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 Mr. Stamp.
12 MR. STAMP: No re-examination.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No re-examination from the Prosecution.
14 Mrs. AE, you've by now answered all the questions of the parties,
15 and the Judges have no additional questions for you. That means that this
16 concludes your examination as a witness. I'd like to thank you very much
17 for having come to the courtroom, although it's at a distance in Sarajevo,
18 the video courtroom, and I hope you understand that it's important for
19 this Chamber to hear the testimony of those who were present at these
20 times, your testimony answering questions of Prosecution and answering
21 questions of the Defence. So I once again would like to thank you very
23 And Ms. Philpott, the witness may be led out of the courtroom.
24 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
25 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we will deal with the documents
1 tendered in relation to this last witness perhaps also on Monday morning,
2 and perhaps I've got two questions in relation to it.
3 The first one is whether the map is going to be tendered in
4 evidence or not. I leave it up to the Defence, but I don't know whether
5 you --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I don't think so. Like
7 the last time, the witnesses cannot read. So it wouldn't serve any
8 purpose. There will be no sense in tendering a text which was -- a
9 document which has not been addressed by the witness or marked by a
11 JUDGE ORIE: This brings me to an observation. Could -- and for
12 the future, it's also addressed to the Defence but also at this moment
13 particularly to the Prosecution, that they invite witnesses to bring all
14 glasses that they possess so that we have the best chance of getting the
15 information that we are seeking.
16 Then, to the Prosecution, it's a relatively short document that
17 you intended to tender. That's P3365.
18 MR. STAMP: Yes. If I may briefly address the Court on it, I have
19 been informed that specific provisions have been made and are available
20 for the Defence to request retranslations or further translations, and I
21 think the reason I'm being informed of it is, as I remember now, that we
22 had been specifically guided, if I may put it that way, or perhaps
23 directed, by the previous Trial Chamber seized of this case, that because
24 of the expected amount of cases which would start in this Tribunal in this
25 year, that the official translation unit should not be asked to translate
1 the entirety of any document presented to them, only those parts
2 considered to be relevant.
3 Any party would be free, if they thought that sufficient
4 quantities were not translated, or there was a mistranslation, to require
5 a full translation or a retranslation. And I say so because it may well
6 be that having regard to the huge amount of medical documentation that
7 they would have had to translate, they might well have been instructed to
8 stick to the diagnosis, unless they were requested by any party to go into
9 other parties. But I do recall that the previous Trial Chamber had
10 directed that only matters considered to be relevant to the issues should
11 be translated, and the parties should refrain from translating every
12 single item on a document unless an issue was raised.
13 That is the observation I make. However, regarding the fact that
14 the issue has been raised now as to the further writing, I will do what my
15 friend could have done, I will ask the translation unit to translate those
16 further three lines.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first ask whether the Defence, having looked
18 at this document now, insist on having translated the parts that were not
19 translated yet, and then perhaps indicate exactly what should be
20 translated. Because I didn't hear -- in the cross-examination, I have not
21 noticed specific attention for this document and for those parts.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are
23 resisting, especially from what we heard from my learned friend, and this
24 is for the following reasons: Every time, and you have seen it, every
25 time when a medical document is produced, there are problems which had to
1 do with the translation. And we are simply wondering if this is not a
2 strategy aimed at exhausting the Defence which all the time runs behind
3 the translations so as to be able to do its very basic work. So that we
4 say this is as a matter of principle.
5 If I did not raise this question during the cross-examination, Mr.
6 President, it is simply that I have no medical knowledge, and that even if
7 we can see what penicillin is, the rest we just do not know what and so
8 forth. We are not medical experts, and unlike the Prosecution, and
9 therefore I do not know what questions to ask, and we do not want to waste
10 time. But we cannot accept this. Either the documents are translated or
11 they are simply not translated, and therefore not produced.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I ask you what exactly what
13 part, because you can read them more or less. I see that "amnecia,
14 diagnocici" [phoen] something, well, that's preprinted. That seems to be
15 translated. Then in the translation, we find the word "shrapnel wounds,
16 visible wounds as stated above." Is that the translation of just the first
17 handwritten line or the first and the second handwritten line as far as
18 you can identify at this moment?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As far as I can see,
20 Mr. President, it seems that the entire part that starts more or less with
21 "MA" which in the margins of the document, all of this where they mention
22 the toilets and of cleaning the wound, et cetera, as far as I can
23 understand, this part has not been translated, apparently because it is
24 illegible. But it's not illegible. For once, it's perfectly legible.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll consider this. So we see that up until
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 "MA," everything is translated in your view. Yes? Okay. Perhaps we'll
2 deal with it after the weekend, so we can consider it.
3 Apart from that, I think we have dealt with all the issues we have
4 to deal with. But Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have it.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, if I said that -- what I
6 said was not translated. I see that you said everything would be
7 translated. What I said is that this was not translated. I don't think
8 that that was clear.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I said everything up to where it reads "MA" has
10 been translated, and the rest has not been translated. Yes. No
11 misunderstanding about that.
12 We'll then -- we have finished, I think, all videolink witnesses
13 in Sarajevo. So next week, apart from the documents we have to decide
14 upon whether they will be admitted in evidence or not, there's nothing
15 else to be discussed at this very moment. So we'll adjourn until next
16 Monday morning, 9.30.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
18 2.33 p.m., to be reconvened on
19 Monday, the 25th day of March, 2002,
20 at 9.30 a.m.