1 Wednesday, 27 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.26 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: This is Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor
7 versus Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I was informed that the
9 voice distortion is now functioning again, so we could resume the
10 examination of Witness AH.
11 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
12 courtroom. And Mr. Ierace, yes, please proceed. I made an observation
13 yesterday as far as dates are concerned. It's not that important. If
14 it's a mistake, fine. If it's really of some relevance, of course you are
15 perfectly free to pay more attention to it. But if not...
16 [The witness entered court]
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I won't pursue that. There are two
18 other questions I seek to ask before I formally complete
20 May I also inquire what channel the English translation is on? I
21 tried 4, and I heard French.
22 THE INTERPRETER: 1, 2, 3. 1, 2, 3. 1, 2, 3.
23 JUDGE ORIE: 4.
24 THE INTERPRETER: 1, 2, 3.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Ms. AH. May I remind you that you're
1 still bound by the solemn declaration you made yesterday. I indicated
2 yesterday to you that you would be examined by counsel for the Defence,
3 but there are still a few questions remaining.
4 So Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 WITNESS: WITNESS AH [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]
9 Q. Good morning, Madam. What time of day was it when your brother
10 was shot?
11 A. In the afternoon.
12 Q. What was the weather like at that time?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Microphone, please.
14 A. Well, it was clear.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that completes examination-in-chief.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
17 So now the moment has come that you'll be examined by counsel for
18 the Defence.
19 Ms. Pilipovic, it's you who is going to cross-examine the
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning.
24 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Witness AH, good morning.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. Witness, yesterday you said that between 1992 and 1994, you and
3 your family - your brother and your mother - I didn't quite get that -
4 that you were not living in Sarajevo. I don't know whether your father
5 was also away.
6 A. No, no, no. My mother was in Sarajevo. Only my brother and I
7 were absent.
8 Q. Can you tell us, you and your brother, therefore, lived outside
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. And when did you return to Sarajevo? Was it July 1994?
12 A. 1994.
13 Q. And whilst you were outside Sarajevo, did you come to Sarajevo now
14 and then?
15 A. No, of course not.
16 Q. Did you attend school during that time?
17 A. My brother did and I did not.
18 Q. You said that on the 22nd of July, 1994, with your mother and
19 brother you had gone to visit your aunt, and then you stopped by a shop
20 window on Miljenka Cvitkovica Street; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Can you tell us the number?
23 A. Let me see. No, I can't tell you. No, I can't tell you the
24 number. I'm not even sure whether that street is still called that. I
25 really do not know.
1 Q. Thank you. Witness, when you started for your walk, or rather,
2 when you were on your way to visit your aunt that day, can you tell us if
3 there was any fighting in the city?
4 A. No, or we wouldn't have left the house.
5 Q. And do you have any knowledge whether during that period of time
6 there was a ceasefire signed in Sarajevo?
7 A. That is another thing I can't say with certainty, but my brother
8 and I had returned to Sarajevo only about a month before that, and we
9 entered the city using blue roads. Those were the roads that one could
10 take to get into the city. And they were open even at the time when my
17 Q. -- and then your brother said that he was wounded. Is that
19 A. Yes. I'd also add that I saw a hole in the glass.
20 Q. You saw a hole in the glass.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the interpreter did not interpret at
22 least one word you said. That was the name of the brother. It will be
23 redacted, but would you keep in mind that you are not supposed to mention
24 that name. Yes. Please proceed.
25 Just for your explanation, if someone, even if it would be
1 yourself, mentions the name of your brother, because of the protective
2 measures, we'll -- we'll correct both the transcript of this hearing and
3 also the tapes. So don't worry about it. We'll take care that the
4 protective measures are effective.
5 Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Witness, you've just told us that you had seen a hole where the
8 glass had been hit. Did I understand you correctly?
9 A. Yes, you did.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. -- and where were -- was your brother?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, of course I didn't listen to the B/C/S
17 channel, but it happened again. Yes. Please proceed.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Can you tell us where you and your mother and your brother were
21 A. We were standing one next to the other. But I cannot exactly --
22 whether it was first my mother, then my brother, then I or how, I just
23 don't remember that, but we were all standing in front of that shop
25 Q. How far from the three of you were the children that you said were
1 present there?
2 A. Children?
3 Q. Yes. Were there any children nearby?
4 A. I really do not remember right now. I cannot remember how many
5 people were there.
6 Q. In relation to the shop window, can you tell us in what position
7 were you, in what position was your mother, and what was the position of
8 your brother? Do you remember that?
9 A. At that moment, as a matter of fact, as we -- when we set off, he
10 was riding a bicycle. But then when we halted in front of the shop, he
11 got off the bicycle. But I think he had his side to the shop, not facing
12 the shop. But again, I'm not quite sure.
13 Q. So you are telling us that yet your brother was not watching the
14 shop window?
15 A. Well, he was standing with us in front of it; but whether he was
16 really facing that or facing me or my mother, I really don't know.
17 Q. Can you tell us, if you can cast your memory back to that shop
18 window in front of which you were standing, where was the hole? Where was
19 the hole in that window? Was it there or somewhere else?
20 A. There, of course. It was to the left.
21 Q. Can you tell us how high was it?
22 A. No, I really don't know that.
23 Q. Are you telling us that that shot which you say you did not hear
24 and that all that you heard was the glass breaking down, can you tell us
25 where was the bullet?
1 A. What do you mean, "where was the bullet"? I don't understand.
2 Q. Where was the bullet?
3 A. Well, I suppose it ended up in the shop. I saw this hole in the
4 window, so presumably it landed in the shop. But I didn't see the bullet
5 as a bullet.
6 Q. You told us that you went back to the site.
7 A. That is right.
8 Q. Can you then tell us whether at the time when you went back to the
9 site, whether there were members of the police there? And do you have any
10 knowledge if that part of that site where you had been was taken
11 photographs of?
12 A. When we returned there to that shop in front of which my brother
13 was wounded, there is a coffee bar there. And two men came out of that
14 coffee bar, those who helped us. And the bicycle had stayed in that
15 coffee bar so that when we returned from the hospital, we went with those
16 men into the coffee bar to get the bicycle. But there were no military
17 there, no, inside that coffee bar. No, there weren't.
18 Q. Can you tell us how old were the men who helped you?
19 A. Well, they could have been 40ish, in their 40s.
20 Q. Can you tell us what they were wearing?
21 A. Civilian.
22 Q. Perhaps you didn't quite understand me. My question to you was
23 when you returned to get the bicycle, whether you found there or whether
24 you heard that there had been the police there, taking photographs of the
25 place of the site of the incident?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Witness, if I now show you photographs of the shop, would you be
3 able to point at the place where there was a hole in the glass?
4 A. Well, more or less, yes, approximately.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has
6 photographs, 2792. These are photographs that we used when -- in the
7 examination of the Witness Mirsad Kucanin.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm afraid, Ms. Pilipovic, we have to wait
9 until the registrar returns.
10 Madam Registrar, could you please find Exhibit P2792. No, that is
11 an exhibit that has been used before, during the testimony of
12 Mr. Kucanin.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. IERACE: Whilst that is being located, I note that there are
16 references to the name of Witness AG in the text accompanying those
17 photographs which have not been redacted. I presume that --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, let's take care that if the photos are
19 shown, that these names, if any text is visible, that it should be covered
20 by one of our yellow stickers.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has it,
22 and we've covered this so that the Registry doesn't have to bother. We
23 have covered this, and we can put it on the ELMO and the witness can look
24 at it. We've covered it so this can be put on the ELMO, and the witness
25 can then tell us that is the shop, of course, if my learned friend has no
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Assuming it is the same set, we could use it
3 meanwhile until the Registry has found it.
4 Mr. Usher, could you please assist Ms. Pilipovic. That saves us
5 time in covering the...
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness, do you see that photograph? Do you have a photograph in
8 front of you? And in the right -- bottom right-hand corner, just below
9 this grid, it says number 1?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you confirm for us that this is the shop -- the window of the
12 shop in front of which you were standing at the time; you, your mother,
13 and your brother?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in this part with
16 these bars, with this metal grate. Just can you bring the photograph down
17 a little bit. Yes, good. Thank you.
18 Q. Witness, on this photograph, can you identify the place where the
19 hole in the glass was? Can it be seen here?
20 A. On this photograph, I see -- I do not see any hole. But as I
21 said, it was on the left-hand side of the shop window. How high from the
22 ground, I really don't know, but I saw it.
23 Q. Is it this left-hand corner of the photograph? Higher up? Do you
24 think it is higher up?
25 A. That's right. Yes, on the left side, on the left side of this
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. So you are confirming to us that that hole cannot be seen on this
3 photograph and that it is not in this part of the photograph that you have
4 in front of you?
5 A. I do not see a hole here, but I repeat once again that I did see
7 Q. Can you tell us, at that moment, did you hear the shot?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. So you are confirming for us that you did not hear a single shot?
10 A. At that moment, no, only the burst and the hole in the glass.
11 Q. Witness, on this photograph, in this part which you have on the
12 screen now, you are confirming now that all three of you were in this part
13 that we see here in front of the shop window?
14 A. Yes, of course.
15 Q. Can you confirm that at that moment, as you were standing in front
16 of that shop window, that there were these -- this metal grate was over
17 the window?
18 A. I don't remember it being there. I really don't.
19 Q. So you cannot confirm for us that at the moment when the incident
20 happened, you cannot confirm that the site, that the scene looks exactly
21 as it is shown in this photograph?
22 A. Well, it is the exact site, but whether there was this metal grate
23 here or not, I really don't remember. It was in 1994.
24 Q. Witness, do you have any knowledge if your mother made a statement
25 related to this incident to the law enforcement authorities of the
1 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you confirm for us that it was on the 1st of March, 1995?
4 A. I wouldn't know the exact date. I really wouldn't.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence intends
6 to show the witness the statement which her mother signed, but before
7 that, we'd like the witness to look at a statement which is in B/C/S, but
8 we also have the English translation. We want the witness to confirm
9 whether it is her mother's signature on the statement. And then the
10 Defence will show, will draw attention to a part of the mother's statement
11 in relation to the event, to the incident which happened in front of this
13 This is the Prosecution document which is registered, and we have
14 two ERN numbers, 00360886, and that is the statement made on the 1st of
15 March, 1995, by the mother. And I also have some copies for my learned
16 friends. Perhaps they could look at them, and if there are no objections,
17 I'd like to show it to the witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I hear no objection, so you're --
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if my friend does have a copy, I'd be
20 grateful for the copy.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it was offered to you. Would you
22 please take care. I don't know whether you've checked whether there are
23 any names mentioned in the document, so perhaps you should be careful
24 before putting anything on the ELMO. But the question about the
25 signature, of course, can be --
1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is no need to
2 put this document on the ELMO, because we have a sufficient number of
3 copies, and we only wanted the witness to confirm to us that this is her
4 mother's signature on this statement.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please give the copies to --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Ms. Pilipovic,
8 is there any need that the document will remain with the witness or --
9 well, please proceed. We always can take it back to you later.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think there's any need for
12 Q. Witness, on this document that is in front of you, do you
13 recognise your mother's signature?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Are you confirming that the statement signed by your mother, that
16 there is the date the 1st of March, 1995, in the corner?
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. And next to the signature which your mother signed, do you also
19 see the 11th of November, 1995?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Witness, you said today -- you told us today that you, your
22 brother and your mother were standing next to one another at the moment
23 when you heard the glass going burst. In the first statement that your
24 mother gave in 1995, can you confirm that her memory in relation to this
25 incident was better then than -- than your testimony in relation to this
1 incident today?
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to that question.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The -- Ms. Pilipovic, the witness cannot answer
4 the question whether the recollection of her mother was better at a
5 certain moment or not. So the objection is sustained.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness, if I show you a part of your mother's statement which she
8 made on the 1st of March, 1995, and confirmed it on the 11th of November,
9 1995 -- I will read the third line from the statement, that is, the fourth
10 line, in the middle:
11 "And whilst I and my daughter were looking at the window shop at
12 a distance of three or four metres, there was my son standing, too, with
13 his bicycle. We suddenly heard just the burst of the glass, and after
14 that, he wailed," meaning your brother, "and children who were there
15 started to run towards a nearby building."
16 Witness, can you confirm for us whether your brother was three to
17 four metres away from you and your mother or are -- or will you confirm
18 what you told us today?
19 A. I cannot confirm it. All I can say is that all three of us were
20 standing in front of the shop window. How far, how far, half a metre, a
21 metre, two metres, I really don't know, but we were all in front of that
22 shop window.
23 Q. Does that mean that you do not remember exactly how far you were
24 standing one from another in relation to the shop window?
25 A. Yes, but the distances were not big.
1 Q. Do you allow it that you were standing at some distance one from
2 another but you don't know how much?
3 A. I don't know how much. I really don't.
4 Q. Can you confirm for us, how were you standing in relation to one
5 another, the line, the order in which you were standing there?
6 A. I really don't remember.
7 Q. Can you answer whether, after you returned to get the bicycle, did
8 you see whether the glass panes on the coffee bar were also shattered, and
9 did any one of those present tell you that a bullet had hit the coffee
11 A. When we returned to the scene, I did not come back to the shop.
12 We entered the coffee bar through the rear door, and we came out of it
13 also. But when we got there, a man - and I do not know whether he was a
14 patron or whether he worked there - pointed to us a hole in the wall.
15 That is it. And we also left through the rear door.
16 Q. He pointed to a hole in the wall where, in the coffee bar?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did he tell you, then, when was it that this coffee bar was fired
19 at? And since when did this hole date?
20 A. It was after my brother's wounding. Whether it was ten minutes,
21 half an hour or how much later, I really don't know because we had left
22 for the hospital.
23 Q. Can you describe the car which took you to the hospital? Do you
24 know the make?
25 A. No, I really don't. I mean, we first went to the emergency unit,
1 which was nearby, and then we went on to the hospital in an ambulance
2 car. And what the make of the car was, I really don't know.
3 Q. Can you -- do you have any knowledge if your mother reported the
4 incident to the police? Did she -- was she interviewed that day by the
5 police in relation to the incident?
6 A. I really don't know.
7 Q. Did you personally, apart from the statement to the investigator,
8 did you make any statements to anyone else?
9 A. No, I didn't.
10 Q. What about your brother?
11 A. He did. But when was that, I don't know.
12 Q. The car in which you rode to the hospital, can you tell us whether
13 it had any markings or was it just a plain passenger car?
14 A. A plain passenger car.
15 Q. Did you -- as you stood there in front of the shop window when you
16 heard the glass breaking, did you personally make an assessment as to the
17 direction from which the bullet had come?
18 A. Well, you know, I really know nothing about weaponry, so I do not
19 think myself competent to answer such a question.
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no
21 further questions.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Pilipovic.
23 Mr. Ierace, any need to re-examine the witness?
24 MR. IERACE: No questions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. AH, I'll first ask whether any of my colleagues
1 have any questions.
2 I have one small question to you.
3 Questioned by the Court:
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic asked you whether the car in which you
5 rode to the hospital, whether this was just a plain passenger car, and you
6 said it was a plain passenger car. Earlier, you testified that you were
7 brought to an emergency first in a car, and then in an ambulance to the
8 hospital. When you said that it was a plain passenger car, did you mean
9 the car which brought you to the emergency or, later on, the ambulance
10 that took you to the hospital?
11 A. The one that took us to the emergency department. But these two
12 men who came to our aid stayed with us in the hospital, and then we
13 returned with them to the coffee bar to pick up the bicycle.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you were transported from the emergency to
15 the hospital in an ambulance?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
18 Ms. AH, this concludes your testimony in this Court. It has been
19 a long voyage for you to come here, but you'll understand that it's very
20 important that this Court hears the answers given to the questions put to
21 you by both parties and by the Bench itself. So therefore, I thank you
22 very much for having come to The Hague, and I wish you a safe journey home
24 Mr. Usher --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- could you please lead the witness out of the
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through
5 the documents.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3676, name sheet, under seal.
7 Exhibit P3269, set of four photographs, under seal. Exhibit D80, the
8 witness statement, under seal.
9 JUDGE ORIE: These documents are admitted in evidence.
10 Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before I call the next witness --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. IERACE: -- which is AG, being the brother of the last
14 witness, I observed that there are a number of exhibits on the list of
15 potential exhibits in respect of this witness. I propose to tender none
16 of them and, indeed, only to rely upon one which is already in evidence
17 and not even show that to the witness. That particular document is P2794,
18 which was tendered through Dr. Nakas from the State Hospital.
19 I inform the Chamber of my intentions at this stage so as to
20 assist the Trial Chamber and the Defence in understanding what will
21 transpire. The reason I don't seek to tender the documents is that, when
22 one looks at them, they are fairly technical. The only one that gives any
23 overview in relation to these injuries is the document which is already in
24 evidence before Dr. Nakas. Basically, I don't think that the other
25 documents will be of any practical assistance to the Trial Chamber. But
1 because my friends have them, of course they can cross-examine on them.
2 Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your explanation, Mr. Ierace.
4 Since one of the protective measures granted in respect of the
5 witness is voice distortion, I wonder whether we should have a break
6 first. I think it's -- we need to prepare the voice distortion, which is
7 adapted to the voice of the witness.
8 We could do two things, either to have the long break now and then
9 split up the remaining time in two and have the shorter break afterwards;
10 we also could have a very short break and perhaps continue in -- five
11 minutes would be enough?
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it may assist you in making that
13 decision to know that we are moving this week much faster than we
14 anticipated, and it may be that we run out of witnesses before tomorrow
15 afternoon. I think we only have two remaining witnesses, including this
17 JUDGE ORIE: So you're asking us to slow down a bit.
18 MR. IERACE: I'm saying that we can take a longer break than we
19 otherwise would, but I don't propose to slow down, no.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, experience has learned me that what time
21 is available is best assessed at the end of the examination of witnesses
22 and not at the beginning. I suggest that we have a break for ten
24 --- Break taken at 10.06 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.23 a.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the voice distortion is now prepared
2 and functioning.
3 Mr. Ierace, would you please call your next witness.
4 MR. IERACE: I call Witness AG.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please lead the witness into the
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Can you hear me in a language you
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not quite loud enough.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you speak a bit louder perhaps.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear too well, I'm afraid.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You cannot hear me well?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's better.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. AG, because that's how I will call you, I will
16 not use your own name, Mr. AG, before giving testimony in this court, the
17 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration
18 that you'll speak the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The text of
19 this declaration will be handed out to you now by the usher, and may I
20 invite you to make that declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Would you please be seated.
24 WITNESS: WITNESS AG
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. AG, you'll first be examined by counsel for the
2 Prosecution, then by counsel for the Defence, and if the Judges have any
3 additional questions, they will put them to you as well.
4 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I can't hear the
6 interpretation properly.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps just test whether you can hear it
8 better now?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's better now, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
12 Examined by Mr. Ierace:
13 Q. Good morning, Witness.
14 A. Good morning.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be shown
16 Exhibit P3677.
17 Q. Would you confirm that the details on the piece of paper in front
18 of you are correct as to your name and date of birth.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Sir, in 1992, were you living in Sarajevo?
21 A. Until April.
22 Q. At some stage after that, did you leave Bosnia for a period of
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. At some stage in 1994, did you return to Sarajevo?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. At some stage after your return, were you wounded?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When were you wounded?
5 A. On the 22nd of July, 1994.
6 Q. How old were you then?
7 A. Thirteen.
8 Q. Where were you when you were wounded?
9 A. With my mother and sister. I was going to visit relatives.
10 Q. Whereabouts were you at the time that you were actually wounded?
11 A. This was halfway there, I think, as we were going to see those
13 Q. Were you inside a building or somewhere in the open?
14 A. In the open.
15 Q. Were you standing still or walking or what?
16 A. I was riding a bicycle. During the actual wounding, I was holding
17 the bicycle. I wasn't on the bicycle. I had got off the bicycle.
18 Q. Please try to avoid referring to your family by their names, but
19 what were your mother and sister doing at the moment that you were
21 A. They stopped next to a shop window to look at the shoes.
22 Q. Can you tell us what happened next?
23 A. Briefly, for a while I was riding the bike, and then I stopped
24 next to them and got off the bike.
25 Q. Please go on.
1 A. After I don't know how much time, when I stopped next to this
2 window, I was wounded.
3 Q. What part of your body was wounded?
4 A. My stomach.
5 Q. Was that towards the middle of your body or to one side or to both
7 A. The lower part of my stomach. I had an entry and an exit wound.
8 Q. At the time that you were wounded --
9 A. I don't know for sure, but I know it was in the afternoon.
10 Q. What was the weather like at that time that you were wounded?
11 A. I'm not sure, but I know that it wasn't raining. The skies were
13 Q. Are you able to say what it was that wounded you?
14 A. I didn't get the interpretation.
15 Q. What was it that caused the wound to your body?
16 A. Somebody shot at me.
17 Q. Did you hear the sound of the shot apparently being fired?
18 A. This happened in a very short space of time so that I don't
19 remember whether I heard it. I'm not sure.
20 Q. Did you hear any sound at about the time that you were shot?
21 A. I'm not sure.
22 Q. Did you say anything at the time you were shot, as best you
24 A. No, no. I'm not sure.
25 Q. What happened after you were shot?
1 A. I entered the passageway that was next to that shop, and a man
2 came out of a restaurant that was nearby. He took me to his car, and then
3 we went to the emergency service.
4 Q. Did you hear the sound of any shooting before you were shot, say
5 within about ten minutes before you were shot?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you hear the sound of any shooting after you were shot, that
8 is, between the time you were shot and when you left the area for
10 A. I'm not sure, because I was in a state of shock. So I'm not
12 Q. You told us that your mother and your sister were nearby at the
13 time that you were shot. Were there any other people in that area at that
15 A. There were some children nearby.
16 Q. How far away were they from you at that time?
17 A. Very close to me.
18 Q. How many children?
19 A. I'm not sure. Maybe five or six, but I can't be certain. I
20 didn't pay attention to that.
21 Q. Did you notice what they did, if anything, after you were shot?
22 A. No, but they probably ran away.
23 Q. Did you notice any adults in the vicinity, apart from members of
24 your family?
25 A. I'm not sure about that. I didn't pay attention.
1 Q. You will now see a video on the screen in front of you. Please
2 watch it carefully.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the video be played which
4 is, for the transcript, Exhibit P3280WW.
5 Mr. President, before that's played, might that be in closed
6 session, and that will ensure that the names that are on the screen at the
7 moment are not displayed.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we please turn into closed session.
9 [Closed session]
14 [Open session]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are in open session.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE:
18 Q. Sir, did you recognise yourself in that video?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was that filmed in approximately September of last year?
21 A. Yes, but I'm not sure about that.
22 Q. We saw in the video that you were asked to point to a number of
23 things. Did you do so truthfully and to the best of your recollection?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What were you wearing that day?
1 A. I was wearing shorts and a short-sleeved T-shirt.
2 Q. Did you notice any military equipment nearby at the time that you
3 were shot, such as, for instance, military vehicles?
4 A. I'm not sure because I didn't pay attention.
5 Q. Where were you taken for medical treatment?
6 A. The man from the restaurant first took me to his car and then we
7 went to the emergency service, and from the emergency service, we went to
8 the state hospital.
9 Q. For how long did you stay in the state hospital?
10 A. I think it was three or four days.
11 MR. IERACE: I ask that the witness be shown Exhibit P3279WW.
12 Might that be placed on the ELMO.
13 Q. In front of you is a photograph, or at least it's to your right.
14 Do you recognise what appears in that photograph?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In particular, can you see where you were at the time that you
17 were shot?
18 A. Approximately, yes.
19 Q. Please point with the metal pointer to that spot.
20 A. [Indicates]
21 Q. Please take a blue pen and place a cross on that spot.
22 A. [Marks]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if you ask the witness again to mark a
24 document, could you please invite the witness to do it in front of him and
25 then replace the photograph on the ELMO, because facial distortion is,
1 especially when the witness moves, not as effective as it should be.
2 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President. Mr. President, I'm having
3 some difficulty in seeing the cross, but -- yes, thank you, for zooming
4 in, to the technical section. I'm still having some difficulty seeing
5 it. Perhaps I might have access to the photograph.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher. Mr. Usher, could you please give the
7 photograph to counsel.
8 MR. IERACE:
9 Q. Earlier, you said that after you were shot --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If Mr. Ierace has problems
12 seeing the cross, we have too, in order for the witness to indicate where
13 exactly he was standing at the time.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please show it to Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
15 Mr. Usher.
16 The Chamber was perfectly able to see it on the screen. Perhaps I
17 should ask the parties as well to bring their glasses, not only the
18 witnesses. No. I see that you both are wearing your glasses. So that's
19 not meant very seriously.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. After you were shot, whereabouts did you go?
23 A. To the emergency service, as it was the closest to the spot.
24 Q. Where exactly did you go once you left the front of the shoe
25 shop? Did you go along the street or somewhere else?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Into the passageway that can be seen on the photograph.
2 Q. Is the passageway immediately to the left of where you placed the
3 blue cross?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. IERACE: I didn't hear the translation, but I think the
6 witness said yes.
7 THE INTERPRETER: "Yes."
8 MR. IERACE:
9 Q. To the left of the passageway one sees an awning. You referred
10 earlier to a man coming out of a restaurant. Can you see where that
11 restaurant was in the photograph?
12 A. To the left of the passageway.
13 Q. Is that in fact the area where we can see on this photograph a
14 white awning with some red writing?
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage I wish the witness and
17 the Trial Chamber to see the electronic photograph, which is P3279. The
18 case manager will operate that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, Mr. Ierace, before doing that, our order
20 is a bit disturbed this morning, as you might have noticed. Could you
21 give us an indication on how much time you would need for your examination
22 in chief? Keeping in mind that you took one-third of the time for the
23 witness that was cross-examined this morning. And apart from that, you
24 indicated that you would not use a lot of exhibits. So I have some
25 difficulties in guessing how much time you'd still need, and if you'd give
1 me an indication, then I would be better able to schedule the breaks.
2 MR. IERACE: Five minutes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Five minutes. I then suggest that we first finish
4 the examination-in-chief and then have a break. So please proceed, and
5 may the electronic photo be shown to the witness.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I correct what I said earlier as to
7 the exhibit number. It's P3279W.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I assume, Mr. Ierace, there's nothing that would
9 cause us to go into private or closed session on this photograph?
10 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 Q. Do you see on the screen in front of you some shoes behind some
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. We will now move the photograph slowly to the right. Please stop
16 the photograph.
17 Do you recognise the scene which now appears on the screen in
18 front of you which shows the same shoes in the shop --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- to the left, and then a very wide road occupying the right half
21 of the photograph? I think you said you do. Is that correct?
22 A. [No audible response]
23 Q. Do you recognise the street on the screen?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is that the view from the area where you were shot?
1 A. Approximately, yes.
2 Q. Having regard to your earlier evidence, do we see in this same
3 view the direction in which you were headed at the time that you were
5 A. Precisely. This is the direction in which I was facing.
6 MR. IERACE: We will continue to move the photograph slowly to the
7 right. Please pause.
8 Q. Do we now see a view of what one could see opposite the shop?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. IERACE: We will now attempt to zoom the photograph in on the
11 skyline. All right.
12 Q. Now, the image at the moment shows two cars in a car park, one red
13 and, to the left, one silver coloured. Behind each of those two cars, in
14 the distance, two high-rise buildings and, between them, a ridge. Is that
15 correct? Is that what appears on the screen in front of you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know the name of the area of the ridge between the two
18 high-rise buildings?
19 A. I don't know for sure, but I think it's called the Hrasno hill.
20 Q. On the video, you showed us the position you were standing in at
21 the instant that you were shot. That position had you side-on to the shoe
22 shop. You've told us that the bullet wounded you in your stomach. Were
23 you able to work out what the entry point of the bullet was? In other
24 words, which part of your body did the bullet first enter?
25 A. On the right-hand side.
1 Q. It follows from the evidence you have given that the bullet came
2 from the approximate area which was opposite the shop; in other words,
3 what appears on the screen. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. IERACE: We will now continue to move the photograph slowly to
6 the right. Please pause there for a moment. We will zoom the photograph
7 back so that we have a wider view.
8 Q. I think in the image which is on the screen at the moment we see
9 four high-rise buildings side by side in an area on the other side of the
10 car park. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know what part of town those four buildings -- withdraw
13 that. Were those four buildings there in July of 1994?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know the part of town where they are, in other words, the
16 name of that part of town?
17 A. Cengic Vila.
18 Q. We'll continue to move the photograph slowly to the right. Please
20 Having regard to your earlier evidence, is that the restaurant
21 from which the man came who gave you assistance?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. IERACE: For the transcript, we see on the left side of the
24 photograph a road; and from the middle to the right, what appears to be an
25 outdoor cafe area with a large Coca-Cola sign.
1 Please continue to move the image to the right. Please pause.
2 Q. Do we now see the entrance to the alleyway or passageway by which
3 you left the scene after you were shot?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When you were taken for medical treatment, what sort of vehicle
6 was that?
7 A. I know it was the car of this man who was in the restaurant. I
8 don't know exactly what kind of car it was.
9 Q. When you got into the car, was it on the other side of that
10 passageway, that is, through that passageway somewhere behind those
12 A. No. It was at the spot that we saw a moment ago, next to the
13 silver car and the red car in front of the restaurant. That was where the
14 car was parked.
15 Q. I take it, therefore, that although you went through this
16 passageway, at some point you made your way back out to the front area in
17 front of the shoe shop and restaurant. Is that correct?
18 A. After being wounded, I entered with my mother and sister into the
19 passageway. Then the man came out of the restaurant. His car was parked
20 in front. So we came out of the passageway and reached the car.
21 Q. At the time you were shot, did you notice anyone nearby wearing
22 any military uniforms?
23 A. I'm not sure about that. I didn't pay any attention.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that completes examination-in-chief.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
2 As I indicated before, we'll now have a break for half an hour.
3 Mr. AG, after the break, you'll be examined by counsel for the Defence.
4 But we'll first have a break for half an hour. So we'll resume at 25
5 minutes past 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.56 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.28 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine
9 the witness? Or Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again I can't hear the
13 interpretation. Oh, yes. Now it's all right. Now it's all right.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever there is any technical problem, please
15 inform us, as you just did.
16 Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Can you hear me? I'm just checking. Can you hear me and can you
21 hear it clearly?
22 THE INTERPRETER: But could the counsel please bring the
23 microphone closer to him.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I will do my best not to ever mention your name or the name of any
1 members of your family.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel please bring the microphone
3 closer? We can barely hear him.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
5 Q. My first question, please. You've told us about your mother,
6 about your sister, but you did not mention your father. Where was your
7 father at the time of the incident, that is, in July 1994?
8 A. I am not quite sure where exactly at that time, whether he was at
9 home or at work.
10 Q. You are telling us, Witness, that you're not quite sure whether he
11 was at home or at work. What do you mean? What do you mean when you say
12 "at work"?
13 A. At that time, he went to work.
14 Q. Very well. And who was his employer?
15 A. He worked in a school.
16 Q. And did that school work at the time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Witness, was your father, at sometime between 1992 and 1994, a
19 member of the army?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How old was your father at the time of your wounding?
22 A. Forty something. I'm not quite sure.
23 Q. Then why, Witness, wasn't your father called up if he was
24 obviously of a military age?
25 A. In the early days of the war, like all the men, he was assigned to
1 posts where neighbourhoods were guarded. I don't know how to put it
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I just ask you one thing for
4 my own clarification? You asked about whether the school was functioning
5 or whether schools were functioning. I was listening to the French
6 transcript. Was your question about schools generally spoken or that
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, you are
9 quite right, because when one says whether the school worked, it means the
10 institution, not necessarily one specific school. It means schools, but I
11 mean just did the school -- did the schooling function. How, I would say,
12 was the army, on march and so on and so forth. So whether the schooling
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... in translation it
15 says, "And did that school work at the time?" And it was my understanding
16 from your question that you were asking more generally. Could you please
17 clarify this for the witness so that we are sure about his answer?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence
19 appreciates highly that you -- whenever you raise the problem of
21 Q. Witness, when I ask you a question, I ask the question in
22 general. That is, to your knowledge, at the time of the incident, did the
23 school, that is, the schooling system as such, was it -- did it work?
24 A. All schools tried to provide instruction. Perhaps not full time.
25 There were classes of ten minutes each, but they, nevertheless, did what
1 they could to keep up the instruction.
2 Q. Witness, I go back to your previous answer. The question was
3 whether you knew whether he was in the army sometime. You said no. And
4 then you said that in the early days of the war, he stood guard. And when
5 you tell us that he had to stand watch, does that mean with the
6 Territorial Defence?
7 A. In the beginning of the war, those would be groups of men in a
8 particular neighbourhood who took care of the neighbourhood, of the
9 houses. At that time, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not exist yet,
10 so those were just men, just neighbours who guarded their houses.
11 Q. Witness, would they be armed guards?
12 A. At that time, there weren't very many weapons around, but they
13 tried somehow to mend and make do. Some people had -- would have some odd
14 weapon in the house, and they tried to manage somehow.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] General Galic, I'm afraid,
17 Mr. President, cannot hear. His headphones are not functioning. I
18 believe that General Galic cannot hear the witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could we just...
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. It seems that General
21 Galic cannot hear well what the witness is saying.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please see whether the channel
23 is the right one. Which channel gives the original spoken and the
24 translation into B/C/S?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, as always, there is very bad
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 interference whenever we have distorted sound, distorted witness. All the
2 interpreters have trouble hearing, both the witnesses and the counsel.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No interpretation]
4 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, your microphone, please.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Witness, will you please count to ten loudly.
7 A. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If I understood well, it seems
9 that it is better, but still the situation is not perfect.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Voice distortion gives some interference which, as
11 far as I understand, cannot be avoided. But when it reaches a point where
12 it cannot be understood any more, although it might cause difficulties now
13 and then, then of course I'd like to be informed so that we can see what
14 we can do about it.
15 General Galic, is it, although not perfect, at this moment
16 sufficient to hear the witness and to understand what he says?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone of the accused be switched
18 on, please.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear enough. I believe
20 it will be all right now.
21 JUDGE ORIE: As I said, when you can't hear it any more, please
22 inform us immediately. Yes, thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. And
1 I will then ask the witness to speak up, because when he does it, then
2 General Galic will be able to hear him directly in his own language.
3 Q. Witness, I'm resuming my questions. How long did your father
4 remain part of what we call the embryos of the government forces?
5 A. I don't understand your question. Could you please repeat it.
6 Q. I will do that. For how long was your father still a member of
7 what was the embryonic stage of the army of Sarajevo or of the government
9 A. Since in April 1992, I left Sarajevo, I cannot be sure about
10 that. I mean, I was not there. And I'm not able to answer this
12 Q. And therefore, Witness, you cannot be certain either that your
13 father did not subsequently become a member of the army?
14 A. Yes, because I was not in Sarajevo, so that I didn't really know
15 what was the situation in Sarajevo like.
16 Q. So on your part, it was just a deduction. Would that be correct?
17 A. Well, telephone connections were cut off. I was receiving no
18 information from Sarajevo so that I cannot answer your question.
19 Q. And therefore, you cannot tell me either that he was not in the
20 army because you do not know that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you for that answer.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE: I object on the basis of relevance. That is, this
1 line of questioning as to whether or not his father was in the army at the
2 time that this witness was out of Sarajevo. Indeed, I object on the basis
3 of relevance per se as to whether or not his father was in the army.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, simply it
6 is a matter of credibility, because this witness told us that his father
7 was not a member, whereas he evidently does not know it. And this --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just go back. Exactly I'm trying to find the
9 exact lines where his testimony about his father not being in the army is
11 MR. IERACE: In the English transcript, I think it starts at
12 page 37, line 12.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Where exactly, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, did the witness
14 testify that his father was not a member of the army? I'm just trying to
15 find the exact place. Could you please assist me.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I was
17 listening to the answer in Serbian, and my impression was that the witness
18 answered in the negative. I'll try to find it. Thank you.
19 MR. IERACE: In English, Mr. President, it's page 33, line 19,
20 that he was first asked the question as to whether his father was in the
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. The answer is
23 "no" at 21. And the period was correct for once, from 1992 to 1994, and
24 the answer was no. And now the witness says that he had no way of knowing
25 whether yes or no.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think he then testified that in the
2 beginning, that his father was part of what you called the embryonic stage
3 of the army, and that he didn't know whether he stayed there. And so he
4 gave further nuance about the activities of his father. So to that
5 extent, I would say that the initial answer has been rectified to some
6 extent. And what happened later when he wasn't there, the witness
7 testified that he wouldn't know that. But I think it's not fair to take
8 the witness back to his initial answer when he rectified, or at least
9 amended, the answer at a later stage, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 So therefore -- and as far as the relevance is concerned, I also
11 was wondering, apart from the issue you just raised, what the relevance
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The
14 witness, to begin with, did not say that he was -- his father was a member
15 of the Territorial Defence. He did it only later on when he said that he
16 was not in the army when I continued asking him of that. That is the
17 first thing.
18 Secondly, what is there that the Defence suspects that the father
19 of this person was in the army, had a role there and had a weapon that we
20 can ask a number of such questions to bring us to the wounding of the
21 witness on the date in question.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's a totally different thing. If you
23 stress the point that the witness couldn't know since he was not there -
24 that's what you asked the witness finally - is that the way to -- that
25 part of the case of the Defence?
1 So I still -- but I now better understand what the -- actually
2 what the case of the Defence is in this respect, and therefore, that is
3 not part of the testimony in examination-in-chief, and if that would be
4 material to the Defence, you should put to the witness what the case of
5 the Defence is, as you know.
6 So therefore, if you do so, you may continue questioning on this,
7 but then you should say what the case of the Defence in this respect is.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.
9 Then I will ask a question which might clear this up.
10 Q. Witness, at the time of the incident - and I'm going to be
11 relatively precise - in July 1994, where was, physically, your father?
12 A. He was working in a school.
13 Q. Witness, what was -- where was he physically at the time of the
14 incident in July 1994?
15 A. I am not sure.
16 Q. Witness, since you tell us that you are not sure, is it that you
17 didn't know where your father worked?
18 A. I know that he worked in a school, but at that time when I was
19 wounded on that particular day, I don't know. I'm simply not sure where
20 he was then.
21 Q. Witness, since you are not sure about his exact location, could it
22 be possible that he was also in the street in which you were wounded?
23 A. I am not sure.
24 Q. Witness, if you are not sure, you do not -- you do not discard
25 this hypothesis altogether? You do not say that it is completely
2 A. I cannot say whether he was in the street or in the house. I'm
3 simply not sure. I cannot answer you accurately because -- exactly
4 because I do not know.
5 Q. Very well. If he worked in a school, what was he there? Was
6 he -- in what capacity was he? Was he a janitor? Was he a teacher?
7 A. He was a teacher.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I maintain my objection on the basis
10 of relevance. Whether the witness's father was a teacher or a janitor or
11 whatever, he's, in my respectful submission, patently lacking in
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you tell us --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I shall be happy to do
15 so, Mr. President, because depending on the freedom of access, we know
16 that some people did not have free access to certain buildings, but a
17 teacher presumably has access to a number of places in a school,
18 obviously, otherwise he wouldn't be going there. So that my next question
19 was related to places which could have been used by other institutions,
20 not only by the school. But every time when I try to do that, I mean,
21 the -- the Prosecution then tells the witness what he should say.
22 And we have already heard very many testimonies, and we know that
23 schools --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said the quality of the father was relevant
25 for other aspects which have not been touched upon during
1 examination-in-chief, so would you please then -- and if necessary, we'll
2 take off the headphone of the witness for a while so that you indicate
3 what the case of the Defence is in respect of special places to which
4 teachers would have another type of entrance.
5 Mr. Usher, would you please perhaps take off the headphones, for
6 one second, of the witness.
7 Mr. Ierace.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before Mr. Piletta-Zanin responds to
9 that question, I should add this to the basis of my objection.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. IERACE: The Prosecution has already called evidence of
12 teachers, and no such proposition has been put to those witnesses. Having
13 regard to Rule 90 and the obligations on the Defence as a result of
14 Rule 90, it follows that at that stage of the case, there was no issue
15 with their evidence, and the opportunity to ask them such questions was
16 not taken. Instead, it's taken through this witness, who at that time was
17 13, in relation to his father. In other words, it is hearsay evidence
18 that he now seeks to bring out in spite of the fact that he had an
19 opportunity earlier to ask witnesses who were directly employed in the
20 education system. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before giving a decision, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
22 could you please indicate to us what the quality of a teacher or whatever
23 other function?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I shall
25 be very happy to do that. If we take the sum of teachers - and once again
1 I hope that the witness does not understand French and English, but it
2 doesn't matter because it will become obvious - this teacher could be a
3 teacher of physical culture and then no doubt he will have access to the
4 gyms which existed. And we know in other cases that the army used those
5 schools either as canteens or dormitories for their soldiers. And it is
6 therefore very important that whenever a witness can tell us something
7 about a school, that he does so.
8 And the father of this witness, as a teacher, perhaps if he taught
9 physical education, perhaps he had access to large gyms and, therefore,
10 could know where they were, the canteens or the barracks of those
11 soldiers. So to me, it seems a very legitimate question from the point of
12 Defence that he knew where all these facilities where, and also if there
13 were other classrooms which of -- were used for military purposes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You seek this evidence by way of hearsay of
15 someone who was, at the time when that happened, 13 years old.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not necessarily. Not
17 necessarily, because it is quite probable that if the schools functioned,
18 if the schools were in working order, then at that time, this witness, who
19 was a student at the time, did go to the school, and it is also quite
20 possible that he accompanied his father to -- to the school and therefore
21 could see himself things that are of interest to the Defence. So it is
22 not necessarily hearsay.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied, but could you please come to
2 the point that you just indicated to us. If you say it might be that his
3 father was such-and-such a teacher, why don't you ask the witness?
4 Could we -- no. If you'd just wait until the witness has his
5 earphones on again.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Witness, can you tell us, what were the subjects that your father
10 A. Before the war, he taught practical training. I'm not quite
11 sure. I was 13 at the time, and I didn't understand very many things.
12 But as a matter of fact, he trained them in practical exercises.
13 Q. Right. Did you sometimes go with him to his place of work?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know if in that school at the time of the war, that is,
16 between 1992 and 1994, whilst you were still in Sarajevo and at the time
17 when you had already returned, were there any military facilities in the
18 school? Did the school house any military institution or something?
19 A. I'm not sure.
20 Q. Witness, when you say, "I'm not sure," what does that mean? Does
21 that mean could you imagine? Could you assume such a possibility?
22 A. Once again, I repeat: I was a 13-year-old boy. I didn't really
23 have a grasp of very many things. And I don't know. I just can't answer.
24 Q. Very well. But now you are not a 13-year-old boy. Did you hear
25 your father talk about the school, say something about that school,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 which would have to do directly or indirectly with some kind of military
3 A. No.
4 Q. Are you sure, Witness?
5 A. Well, during the war, I didn't attend that school, so I do not
7 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. Let me move on to another
8 series of questions.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And can we have back on the
10 screen the photograph which we had before and which needs to have hidden
11 its lower part. And that was the photograph which was shown and which
12 shows the shop window. Once again, we have to cover. If you'd just let
13 me do that. Thank you.
14 It is the same document, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is Exhibit P2792. And which photograph
16 would you like to be shown to the witness? Page 2? The pages are on the
17 top of the --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] I know that, Mr. President. Thank
19 you very much. I'm trying to obliterate everything.
20 It is page 2. ERN 28...
21 JUDGE ORIE: We have located the document tendered -- the admitted
23 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Witness, we will see on the photograph -- do you recognise this
2 A. I do. That is where I was wounded.
3 Q. Witness -- my image is very poor. I don't know whether
4 the -- whether it can be improved. No. Well, never mind.
5 Witness, you were wounded, and you said a moment ago that you were
6 to the left-hand side of the shop window. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, I believe that you said that
9 the bullet which hit this glass pane, the window, which was to the left?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: Perhaps my learned colleague could take us to the
12 page and line where the witness said that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do so.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will take the necessary time
15 to find it again. But let me rephrase the question. I will rephrase the
16 question so as not to waste time.
17 Q. Witness, you say you were wounded. Did the bullet, having passed
18 through your body, did it then hit this glass pane?
19 A. Yes, it did.
20 Q. Thank you for your answer. Very well.
21 Witness, this shop window as we see it in this photograph, to the
22 best of your recollection, does it correspond to what there was at the
23 time of the incident?
24 A. As far as I can remember, because that was --
25 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, you were to the left
1 part -- you were to the left of this shop window, in front of its
2 left-hand side?
3 A. I was standing in front of the shop window. Now exactly, I
4 wouldn't know the exact spot. Well, where it is marked number 1. That is
5 where I stood.
6 Q. Very well. Thank you, Witness.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in on the
8 left part of the shop window. More precisely, slightly to the right.
10 Q. Witness, will you please look at this shop window closely. You
11 have the photograph on the screen as well, I think. Could you tell us, in
12 what part of the window did the bullet hit it?
13 A. I'm not sure. This happened in a very short period of time. I
14 went into shock, so I don't know exactly where it hit. Logically, it hit
15 the window because I was standing next to the shop window and the bullet
16 went through my stomach. It didn't stick there. And I didn't go back to
17 this location, so I'm unable to say where exactly it hit the glass.
18 Q. But, Witness, you have just said, and this is on page 46, that the
19 bullet hit the window. Are you confirming that now?
20 A. One could hear the glass breaking.
21 Q. Very well. Could you closely examine the photograph, please. And
22 after examining it, will you tell me that the glass behind the grid, is
23 the glass in any way broken?
24 A. No, I can't see that it is broken.
25 Q. Witness --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in on the
2 ground just in front... The part of the street.
3 Q. Witness, could you identify here pieces of glass, broken glass?
4 A. I don't see any. And it's not a clear photograph anyway, so you
5 can't see very clearly.
6 Q. Witness --
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the
8 usher, could you please remove from the ELMO the photograph and show it to
9 the witness in the original, please.
10 A. No, I don't see any pieces of glass here.
11 Q. Thank you, Witness.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the photo
13 was shown to the witness close up and that -- the left part of the shop
14 window was zoomed in on, and no bullet impact could be seen on the glass
15 of the shop window.
16 Q. Witness, is it possible that when you heard glass breaking, that
17 this breaking of glass was not the glass of the shop window?
18 A. I'm not sure about that. I'm telling you this happened in a
19 second, in a very short span of time. And we took shelter in the
20 passageway. There was a big hullabaloo around us, so I can't tell you
21 with any certainty.
22 Q. Witness, you affirm that you were shot at. Is this something that
23 you stand by?
24 A. Yes, yes. I didn't shoot at myself.
25 Q. Witness, if you were shot at and if the bullet, after passing
1 through your body, ended up in the window, how can you explain that the
2 glass is not broken?
3 A. Maybe a hole was left in the glass. I don't know.
4 Q. Did you, yourself, see this hole?
5 A. No. I'm saying this happened in a matter of seconds.
6 Q. Witness, did you see a hole on the photograph that was shown to
7 you a moment ago?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Thank you for your answer.
10 Witness, I should like to go back to the street and what happened
11 during this incident. We know that, next to this shop, there was a
12 restaurant. Could you tell us the name of that restaurant? Do you
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. If I mentioned the word "Arijana," does that remind you of
17 A. Today it is called Arijana. I don't know whether that was what it
18 was then. I just didn't pay any attention at the time. I just looked at
19 the shop window.
20 Q. Fine. So the name of the restaurant was Arijana. I think we can
21 consider that to have been established. When you arrived in front of this
22 shop window, did you pass by the Arijana restaurant?
23 A. Yes, because we were moving from that direction. My mother and
24 sister stopped in front of the shop window, and for a while I continued
25 riding my bicycle on the platform in front, and then I too stopped in
1 front of the window when the wounding occurred.
2 Q. Very well. Witness, opposite the restaurant, there's a parking
3 place. We saw that a moment ago on the photograph. In relation to that
4 parking, were there any military vehicles at the time parked in that
5 parking lot?
6 A. As far as I know, no, but I'm saying again I just didn't pay any
7 attention. We were walking by. We were going to see a relative. I
8 didn't look to see whether there were any military vehicles.
9 Q. Have you ever seen civilian vehicles used by the military?
10 A. Yes, because that was normal. There was a war.
11 Q. Very well. Witness, were there civilian vehicles on this parking
13 A. I'm not sure. I don't remember.
14 Q. Witness, you said that you were immediately taken by somebody to a
15 civilian vehicle after being wounded. Is that what you said?
16 A. Yes. This man came from the restaurant.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness. How, Witness, did you know that that vehicle
18 was not a vehicle used for military purposes?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. So when you say that it was a civilian vehicle, in fact you can't
21 know whether it was used for civilian or for military purposes.
22 A. I saw that man for the first time in my life, so I don't know
23 whether he was a military man or a civilian, whether his car was a
24 military vehicle or not. I saw him for the first time then.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're creating confusion to the
1 witness at this very moment. One of your questions was: "Have you ever
2 seen civilian vehicles used by the military?" That clearly indicates that
3 the use of a vehicle by the military does not change it to be a civilian
4 vehicle. Otherwise, your question is without any sense.
5 It is unfair later to put to the witness that when he talks about
6 civilian vehicles, to give the words "civilian vehicle" a different
7 meaning from the meaning you used yourself.
8 If you're aiming at establishing that during this period of time,
9 in that situation, vehicles that looked -- were not -- could not be
10 distinguished from other civilian vehicles would be used by military, then
11 the question is whether this would be the most suitable witness to put
12 that to, apart from whether there has not already been evidence in this
13 court that -- at least some testimony whether that was done. And I do not
14 know whether this is in dispute. I do not know whether it is in dispute
15 that in this situation civilian vehicles would be used sometimes for -- by
16 the military and perhaps for military purposes. I do not know. I'm just
17 looking to Mr. Ierace.
18 But if this is in dispute, of course you could continue your line
19 of questioning, but it should be fair to the witness. You cannot use
20 words, when you speak to him yourself, in a different meaning and then
21 confront the witness with the problem that they might have another meaning
22 as well. He used his words in exactly the same way you did it yourself.
23 I see no response from Mr. Ierace. That means that it is in
24 dispute that --
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm trying to recall whether we've had
1 any evidence to that effect. I don't recollect any to the effect that
2 civilian vehicles were used for military purposes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, military -- I didn't say "military purposes," I
4 think. I think I said that were used by military men.
5 MR. IERACE: I don't recall any evidence to that effect.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. But stay away from that.
7 Please then proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I apologise,
9 Mr. President. It is true that sometimes that the polemics is semantic.
10 Q. To make myself quite clear, this vehicle that you took, in a
11 sense, to go to the hospital, were there any weapons?
12 A. You must understand, I was wounded. I was in a state of shock. I
13 wasn't up to looking around whether there were any weapons. All I cared
14 about was saving my life. I didn't care whether there were any weapons
15 there or not.
16 Q. Witness, I'm fully aware of what this must have meant for you, but
17 it is up to all of us to try and understand the totality of all these
18 problems. So if you saw any weapons in that vehicle, small or big ones,
19 you should say so. So did you see any weapons in that vehicle? Yes or
21 A. No.
22 Q. You have nothing to fear from your answer.
23 A. No.
24 Q. So you didn't see any weapons?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Thank you for your answer. I come back to the question of the
2 restaurant now. When you passed in front of the Arijana, the restaurant
3 in question, were you able to see whether there were several people
5 A. I didn't pay any attention. I don't know.
6 Q. When you were wounded, immediately after that, did many people
7 come out of that restaurant?
8 A. I know that while I was standing next to the shop window, that
9 there were children there. I don't know exactly how many. And
10 immediately after I was wounded, with my mother and sister, entered the
11 passageway and that is when that man came up. That's all I'm able to tell
13 Q. You didn't see any other people coming out of the restaurant?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were there any police in the street at the time?
16 A. As far as I know, no, but I must say again, I didn't pay
18 Q. Do you know whether, as you went along, you came across a police
20 A. I don't remember. This was eight years ago, so I can't tell you
21 with any certainty.
22 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. A question was put to you by
23 the Prosecution regarding the presence of any military objects, and you
24 said that you were not certain and that you didn't pay any attention to
25 that. You told us that several times.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Is it possible then to deduce from your answer that there may have
2 been a military presence but that you don't know about it?
3 A. I didn't notice. But a war was on, so it would be quite normal,
4 though I didn't pay any attention, and I don't know.
5 Q. Witness, when you say that that would have been quite normal, are
6 you telling us that it was often that you would see soldiers in the
8 A. I can't tell you with certainty. No, I don't know.
9 Q. Why did you say that this would be normal?
10 A. I don't mean -- but there was a war. There was civilians, of
11 course, and there were people who were protecting their entrances and so
12 on. So in a sense, it was normal.
13 Q. Very well. You said a moment ago that at the beginning of these
14 events, people organised themselves as defence squads for their buildings,
15 to guard them, and you told us that these persons owned and even
16 manufactured their weapons. Is that correct?
17 A. I didn't see that with my own eyes because I was mostly in the
18 cellar, inside. I didn't go out. So that is what people were saying
19 after the war, that they made their own weapons and so on. But this is
20 not something that I saw, and I can't tell you with certainty. I was
21 mostly in the basement because I was still a child. I didn't dare go
23 Q. Witness, why did you spend your days in the cellar?
24 A. Because it wasn't safe to walk around. They were shelling. They
25 were shooting. That is why we were in the cellar.
1 Q. But, Witness, you didn't go to school?
2 A. Until April 1992, while I was in Sarajevo, I didn't. But after
3 1994, I did because the school was nearby.
4 Q. Why didn't you go to school?
5 A. Because there was shooting. It wasn't safe to leave the house at
6 all. This was the beginning of the war. At the beginning of the war, all
7 schools stopped working. And later on, they resumed working at some
8 locations and in some houses. But at the beginning of the war, the
9 schools stopped working.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. Again, there has been
12 evidence called on this issue by the Prosecution which has not been the
13 subject of any challenge by the Defence. I take it it's not in dispute
14 from -- I take that from the behaviour of the Defence in the past.
15 Therefore, this line of questioning would appear to be at this stage no
16 longer in issue. That is, that children often didn't go to school, often
17 had to stay in basements for their own protection. And therefore, the
18 questioning is irrelevant. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. This
21 witness has told us that schools were functioning, that his father was
22 working. And now we find that while the schools were working, he didn't
23 go because, in practice, the schools were closed. It's a question of
24 credibility of the witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
1 MR. IERACE: My friend misrepresents the evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree with you.
3 MR. IERACE: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You're misrepresenting the evidence. The witness
5 testified that the schools did their best. Sometimes they had even
6 classes of not more than ten minutes. Could you please indicate
7 what -- so to that extent, if you're testing the credibility on this
8 issue, you can only test what was the testimony of the witness and not
9 something else. Could you please explain what the relevance is of this
10 specific issue.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the relevance
12 is the following: This witness says that he doesn't know where the school
13 is when I asked him where his father was working. Even if it worked for a
14 few minutes, we simply note that he didn't go. So I'm just stating that
15 he didn't tell us the whole truth.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. AG, was the school that you were visiting the
17 same school as the school where your father was working?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Witness, I should like to continue with questions linked more
23 specifically to the statement that you made about being shot at. How can
24 you be certain, Witness, that it was not an accidental shot?
25 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. The wording of the question
1 is such that it requires the witness to enter into the mind of the
2 shooter, which clearly cannot be done. The witness's evidence is
3 first-hand evidence of being shot and, to the best of his recollection,
4 the circumstances as he observed them. The question, therefore, is
5 inadmissible. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could the witness take off his
8 headphones, please, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at this stage,
12 we have several testimonies telling us that a bullet went through the body
13 of this person, an adolescent, and it destroyed a shop window, and we are
14 told of the sound this made when the bullet hit the glass. We also have
15 indications that the glass was broken, but he has just told us that he
16 didn't see the hole, any broken glass on the ground. We also know that
17 there was a restaurant next to this window, and we saw bullet impacts on
18 that restaurant. So the next question is, was it possible that this
19 person was not targeted but that the bullet ricocheted? And so I think
20 that the question is quite relevant.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the problem raised by Mr. Ierace is whether
22 the witness can know it. Of course, it's a very relevant question. But
23 it's not a matter of whether the question is relevant but whether the
24 witness is in a position to answer that question.
25 But let me just see whether I can solve your problem.
1 Mr. AG -- yes.
2 Mr. AG, you have been hit by a bullet.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know from where it was fired?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I can't say with any
7 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know whether you were specifically targeted by
8 the person who fired the shot?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not be able to answer that
10 question. You would have to ask the person who was shooting. I can't
11 answer that question. I don't know.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'm sorry. You said that
16 the witness said that he didn't see the hole, but I would like to know
17 where the witness said that. Because as far as I remember, he said that
18 he didn't see any broken glass on the ground. On page 48/7, that's what
19 he said. He didn't mention the hole.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was listening to another
21 channel, Your Honour, and I remember asking whether this witness saw a
22 hole on the photograph, and that he said no. But I will verify that
24 MR. IERACE: If I could assist, I agree with my learned colleague
25 that the witness did say that he didn't see the hole. And that is page 48
1 at line 22. Thank you.
2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Okay. You are right.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry about the
4 interruption, Your Honour, but that was as I remembered it.
5 Do I have your permission to continue?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. And I
8 also thank my learned friend for finding the right reference point more
9 quickly than I did.
10 Q. Right, Witness. You answered the question -- questions which you
11 were asked by the President. And I will now rephrase my question in
12 relation to this restaurant.
13 Do you know if this restaurant Arijana was also hit by -- was also
14 hit, whether directly or indirectly?
15 A. I believe that my sister told me later on that fire was opened on
16 that restaurant, too. But at that time, I wasn't there. I was in the
17 hospital so that I can't know. And it was a long time ago so that I don't
18 really remember all that well.
19 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'd like to go back to the
21 shot which --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I ask you. It's half past 12.00
23 now. You used, I think, more than twice the time compared to the
24 examination-in-chief. Could you tell us how much time you'd still need?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very little, very little. I
1 just wanted to show the 360 degrees. Or we can do it right now, or
2 perhaps after the break.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I would say it's fair if you get a few more minutes.
4 And if you would need that, we can do it now right away and then perhaps
5 have a break.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Very good. I do not
7 know how long will the technology request, but I'd like to see the
8 360-degree photograph.
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... yes, it's on the
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I'd like us to start from
13 here. I don't know who is helping me. Are you helping me?
14 [In English] So we are going to the right, please. A little bit
15 to the right. Move to the right. Could we stop here, please.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, once again, we see the same parking as a
17 short while ago. Can we have --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Could you please zoom in. And a
19 little bit more to the right. May we -- stop. Stop. May we zoom in
20 again. A little bit again. More. That's it. Thanks a lot.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, we once again see this area here, and
22 you yourself called it its name. Will you please repeat its name.
23 A. I think this is Hrasno, a hill called Hrasno. That is my
25 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness. Do you know if at the time,
1 that is, July 1994, 9-4, do you know if that particular area was split
2 between the two opposed sides?
3 A. I don't know. I'm not sure. I didn't go there.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Okay. Can we move again to the
5 right a little bit. Would you stop here, please.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you once again see three or four
7 skyscrapers, high-rise buildings.
8 A. Four.
9 Q. And you also said that this area was called Cengic Vila; is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. This area, Witness, is in front of the restaurant, and
13 we can see one of its flower pots here on this side. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my friend has put a proposition to the
17 witness which, allowing for the fact that it's a two-dimensional view and
18 some photographic distortion, I don't think is correct, that is that those
19 are opposite the coffee-shop, but the witness has answered the question.
20 Perhaps it's a matter for the Trial Chamber in due course. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I did not quite
23 understand the gist of this objection, which is not my custom.
24 Q. But Witness, isn't this in Cengic Vila? Is that the area of
25 Cengic Vila?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Thank you. Witness, is this next to the entrance into the
3 restaurant called Arijana and next to the window shop [as interpreted] of
4 the shoe shop?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness. Witness, at the time of the incident, even
7 though you were only 13 or 14 years, who had the control over these
8 high-rise buildings that we see here?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, you cannot tell me yes or no. Or was it perhaps
11 interpreted? My question was: Who controlled these buildings, to your
12 knowledge? Do you know who had the control over them?
13 A. The control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina would be my answer.
14 Q. Very well. Witness, you stated a moment ago when you were
15 asked -- that is, excuse me. The Prosecution asked a question. You said
16 that you did not hear any kind of sound or shot. Do you remember that you
17 said that about -- some time ago?
18 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. That misrepresents the
19 evidence. The witness did give evidence of hearing a sound but didn't
20 recollect whether he heard a shot.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not the sound of a shot, as far as my
22 recollection goes. The sound of breaking glass, for example.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we
24 have to look at the page 22/14.
25 JUDGE ORIE: "Did you hear the sound of any shooting before you
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 were shot, say within about ten minutes before you were shot?" The answer
2 was, "No."
3 That's the sound of shooting. You're now talking about, "Did you
4 hear any shot or sound?" That's not the same. So would you --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it was exactly
6 my question in French, "Did you hear the sound of a shot, of something
7 that was fired?" And what I said in French, I mentioned the "ten minutes"
8 in the question.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but your new question was that the witness
10 didn't hear any shot or sound, and I think the objection was that the
11 witness testified that he did not hear the sound of a shot but that
12 doesn't exclude that he heard other sound. So would you please rephrase
13 your question.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, you were asked by the Prosecution awhile ago whether
16 within ten minutes of your accident you heard any sound of a shot, and
17 your answer was no. Are you confirming this?
18 A. Yes, I am.
19 Q. Very well. Witness, can you likewise confirm that within ten
20 minutes preceding your accident, you were not in the street concerned?
21 A. We were walking, so that I don't know. Perhaps for about five
22 minutes I was riding around on my bicycle. We were just walking by and
23 then we stopped or, rather, my mother and sister stopped in front of the
24 building, and I still rode for about four or five minutes on my bicycle,
25 and then I also fetched to a stop in front of the shop.
1 Q. Right. But for about five minutes before this, you were
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And my very last question, Mr. President: Do you know, Witness,
5 please, if a police investigation was started in relation to the accident
6 of the shooting at the Arijana restaurant?
7 A. I don't know. I was in the hospital so that I wouldn't know.
8 Q. Thank you, Witness.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No more questions,
10 Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is there any reason to re-examine the
13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Could that be conveniently done
14 after the break?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you think you need more than one or two
16 minutes, we will do it after the break. We'll have a break until 1.00.
17 Mr. AG, we will break for 20 minutes.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.42 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please re-examine the witness.
21 MR. IERACE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. The questions I
22 have to ask may be construed as going beyond re-examination for more --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President. I'm sorry that
24 I have to interrupt, but it seems that the witness is indicating that he
25 cannot hear it.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right. I can't hear all that
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can you hear now?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have problems hearing the
5 interpretation. Now it's fine. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
7 Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, for drawing my attention to it.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, for more abundant caution, I intend to
9 seek leave to ask further questions as examination-in-chief, subject to
10 the usual opportunity afforded to the Defence to further cross-examine on
11 the specific issue if they wish.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Further examined by Mr. Ierace:
15 Q. Sir, did you make a number of statements to the investigators from
16 the Tribunal?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was one of those statements made on the 11th of November, 1995?
19 A. I do not remember the date. I wouldn't know the exact date.
20 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown a document. I ask the
21 document not be placed on the ELMO because it has identifying features.
22 Q. Do you recognise, on the document, your signature?
23 A. I do.
24 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the document can be shown to the Defence.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the
3 document - I'm sorry I have to interrupt Mr. Ierace - but the document in
4 question is a document which I'm showing you which has several pages.
5 Some of these are pages in Serbian which have not been translated. Once
6 again, we do not have a translation here, so I do not know whether
7 Mr. Ierace can provide us with an immediate translation of the -- there
8 are several numbers. 4276 or 0890, and the other document. And thank you
9 in advance.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, those pages are not relevant to the
11 questions I'm about to ask.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we just have a look at them.
13 May I take it, Mr. Ierace, that it's just page 2 of the document
14 that you're particularly interested in?
15 MR. IERACE: Yes, that's correct, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. And the document may be returned to
17 Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: Yes.
19 Q. Sir, you were asked this question by my learned colleague during
20 cross-examination. Question: "Do you know if this restaurant Arijana was
21 also hit, whether directly or indirectly?" And you replied that your
22 sister told you something later on. Is that correct? Do you remember
23 being asked that question and giving such an answer?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. Now, do you remember whether at any stage you spoke to
1 the man from the coffee shop who took you in his car to receive medical
2 treatment about shots being fired either into the cafe or in relation to
3 where he was?
4 A. Before I was wounded or after?
5 Q. After you were wounded.
6 A. No. All I remember is that that man drove me to the hospital,
7 that is, first to the emergency clinic and then to the hospital.
8 Q. Did you see him after he drove you to the emergency clinic and
9 later to the hospital or was that the last time that you saw him?
10 A. As far as I remember, I didn't see him again.
11 Q. I will now read to you a sentence from a statement that you signed
12 on the 11th of November, 1995, being 16 months after this incident. "The
13 man from the coffee shop who took me to the hospital told me the bullet
14 went above his head."
15 Does that remind you that the man from the coffee shop who took
16 you to the hospital told you those things?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. At the time that you signed your statement, did you also sign an
19 acknowledgement -- I withdraw that.
20 At the time that you signed your statement, was it read to you in
21 the Bosnian language?
22 A. I don't remember, believe me. It was such a long time ago.
23 Q. All right. Do you remember placing your signature on a part of
24 the statement which -- I'll withdraw that.
25 Do you remember whether at the time that you signed your statement
1 there was an interpreter present, that is, someone who was interpreting
2 both the document and words that were spoken to you and by you?
3 A. I don't remember. I really don't.
4 Q. If you had placed that sentence in your statement, in other words,
5 if you had told the investigator those things, would it have been the
6 truth at that stage? In other words, your recollection in November 1995?
7 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I'm not really getting the
8 -- the interpretation.
9 Q. All right. I have read to you a sentence from your statement of
10 November 1995, and you have told us that you no longer remember what that
11 sentence says. You no longer remember the events which that sentence
12 describes. Nevertheless, since it is a sentence from your statement, does
13 it reflect --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I must object, because we've
16 understood where Mr. Ierace is driving at. The witness said that he does
17 not remember doing -- having -- saying this, and the witness has just
18 answered no, but he has three or four times been asked the same question.
19 Three times, I believe.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I believe that Mr. Ierace was not putting the same
21 question to the witness. So the objection is denied.
22 MR. IERACE: I'll rephrase the question, Mr. President.
23 Q. At the time that you made your statement, did you do your best to
24 describe the events as you remembered them then?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Have you any reason to doubt that the contents of your statement
2 in November 1995 were true and to the best of your recollection in 1995?
3 A. I have no reason not to tell the truth, and all that I said was
5 MR. IERACE: That completes the further questioning,
6 Mr. President. I have no further questions by way of re-examination.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the questions put to the
8 witness by Mr. Ierace are related to an earlier statement. Is there any
9 reason to cross-examine the witness on that?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not -- no. I'm afraid --
11 I'm afraid, Mr. President, I'm afraid so. I'm afraid so.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please then -- please then proceed.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
14 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you have just said that you had no
16 reason not to tell the truth with regard to your statement.
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. When you said in 1995, it would appear, that you had spoken with
19 the driver and today you said, and under oath, under oath before this
20 Chamber that you do not remember having spoken with that driver, what is
21 it that we are supposed to believe? What is the truth, the true
23 A. The best explanation is that it was eight years ago, and I do not
24 recall all the details. That is all that I can tell you. After all, a
25 lot of time has elapsed.
1 Q. I will ask you yet another series of question -- or questions in
2 relation to this bullet. Do you know if your mother has ever made a
3 statement in relation to this incident?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know what it is that your mother said?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 Q. Do you know if your mother -- do you know if your mother spoke to
8 you after the incident about the circumstances under which it happened?
9 A. I don't understand the question.
10 Q. Yes. It wasn't worded in the best way. Let me rephrase it.
11 Did you speak with your mother about the circumstances under which
12 it happened?
13 A. Why, yes.
14 Q. And did your mother confirm to you that she had also heard the
15 bullet hit the window of the shoe shop?
16 A. I don't remember talking about that. I simply do not remember.
17 Q. Did you talk about it with your sister?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know whether -- that your sister also said that she, too,
20 had heard the bullet hit that window of the shoe shop?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. You do not know whether your sister said that or not? Is that how
23 we are to understand your answer?
24 A. I don't remember.
25 Q. My last question: Do you know if somebody recovered that bullet,
1 found that bullet, that hit you or not?
2 A. I do not know.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No other questions,
4 Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. The Chamber noticed
6 that you went beyond the questioning in re-examination. We accepted
8 The Judges might have some questions to you as well, Mr. AG. So
9 first, it's Judge Nieto-Navia who will put one or more questions to you.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The Defence asked you whether your father was
12 in the street in which you were wounded. Your answer was: "I am not
13 sure." And then you said: "I cannot say whether he was in the street or
14 in the house."
15 My question is exactly the same. Was your father in the street in
16 which you were wounded? But I would like to be clear: In that street,
17 not in the street in general.
18 A. No.
19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Your answer is no. Thank you.
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions to
22 you, Mr. AG.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 [Interpretation] Witness, if I understand correctly, you and your
25 sister left Sarajevo in 1992.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Do you remember in which month?
3 A. In the month of April.
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And at that point in time, before
5 your departure, did you go to school?
6 A. No. Because at the beginning of the war, the schools stopped
7 working. It was only later that some schools were formed in homes or in
8 certain areas. I don't know exactly because I wasn't in Sarajevo at the
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No. But I'm talking about April
11 until you left, did you go to school or not?
12 A. No.
13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You never went to school?
14 A. At the beginning of the war. The war started in 1992. When the
15 first barricades were erected in Sarajevo, the schools stopped working.
16 Until April, until I left Sarajevo, I didn't go to school.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So I understand now. Until the
18 beginning of the conflict, you went to school; but as of April, you
19 stopped going to school.
20 Do you remember the circumstances under which you left the town?
21 Was it because of the conflict? How did you leave the city? If I
22 understand, it was only with your sister, and your mother stayed behind
23 with your father.
24 A. Yes. Our parents wanted us to go because there was shooting in
25 Sarajevo. We all thought that this would last a month or two. So as to
1 avoid us experiencing the fighting, they wanted us to leave for a month or
2 two, because that is what we all thought, that the war would only last
3 that long. And once it calmed down, that we should come back. That was
4 the only reason why we left.
5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand that. But was
6 it easy to leave the city without any problems?
7 A. Yes, in those days. But later on, it wasn't so easy to leave. At
8 the time we left, it was quite -- it wasn't easy, but it wasn't as
9 difficult as it was later on when the war really gained momentum.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm referring now to
11 the incident. You spoke of a young man who took you in his car. I
12 understand that you were in shock, and it's not easy to remember, but in
13 your opinion, was he passing by, or was his car parked in the area where
14 the accident took place? Do you remember a little bit the circumstances
15 surrounding this young man and his car; whether he was passing by, driving
16 by, or whether his car was parked?
17 A. Before I was wounded, when we arrived at the place of the
18 accident, I didn't pay attention to the cars parked in front. But when I
19 was wounded, after the wounding, we entered the passageway. The man came
20 out of this restaurant, and he carried me to his car. And it was only
21 then that I saw that his car was parked in front of the restaurant.
22 However, before the incident, I didn't pay attention. It was only after I
23 was wounded when he took me to his car that I saw that it was parked
24 there. I didn't know whether it was his or...
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And my last
1 question: You returned in June, if I understand correctly, June 1994.
2 And this was during a period of cease-fire when the situation was
3 calmed -- calm in the city, and your parents decided that it was time for
4 you and your sister to return. Or something else? What were the
5 circumstances of your return to the city?
6 A. Yes. The so-called "blue routes" were opened, so it was possible
7 to leave the city and to enter the city. So our parents decided that we
8 should come back. Before that, it was not possible to leave the city.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. AG, this concludes your testimony before the
12 Tribunal. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and
13 giving your testimony because you'll understand that it's important for
14 the Judges to hear the answers to the questions put by both parties and by
15 the Judges themselves to the witnesses and get the information from those
16 who were present at these times and at these places. So therefore, I'd
17 like to thank you again, and I wish you a safe trip home. Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness out of
20 the courtroom. I take it that facial distortion will not be affected
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through
24 the documents.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before that happens, might I
1 remind you that the only medical documentation that I rely upon in
2 relation to this witness is, as I understand it, already an exhibit, that
3 is, P2794. So there is no need to go through the medical documentation.
4 Thank you.
5 I should add, Mr. President, that in relation to the statement, I
6 don't seek to tender that, provided the Defence concedes that the sentence
7 I read is from a statement of the witness dated the 11th of November,
9 JUDGE ORIE: I heard no objection, and usually when there's little
10 reading of a part of a previous statement, this is accepted. Well, since
11 the Defence itself referred to that statement --
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was just checking the text I
13 have in front of me. And you know that very often the Defence and the
14 Prosecution agree, and this is one such case.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3677 under seal, pseudonym sheet.
16 Exhibit P3279WW, photograph marked by witness. Exhibit P3279W, 360-degree
17 Quicktime movie. And Exhibit P3280WW, under seal, videotape.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Concerning the 360-degree
20 photograph, we still have the same objection and there is no reason for me
21 to repeat it each time.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The standing object against the 360-degree
23 photograph. And all documents are admitted in evidence, including the
25 Before you call your next witness -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, regarding
2 exhibits, the medical documents, I have to say that one of those documents
3 that we received relating to this witness is -- appears to be one of those
4 that were in extremis. And again we go from white to grey-white. And by
5 showing you this text, I want to show that it is not legible, at least,
6 this part. It is only because the Defence once again wishes to stress
7 that it was handicapped in the preparation of its cross-examination as a
8 result of this.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have taken notice of that,
10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 Before we continue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'd like to address you on
12 one issue. You reminded this witness, while questioning, two times that
13 he gave his statement under oath. I'd invite you, if there's any need to
14 remind a witness that he's under oath, that you ask for my intervention.
15 Not because I find that it would under no circumstances be acceptable that
16 a short reminder to the oath taken by the witness should be improper, but
17 you used it while putting a question to the witness which we should
18 believe, his statement given in 1995, that he speak -- that he spoke to
19 the driver or that he testified under oath in this court that he did not
20 remember having done so.
21 Your suggestion was that we should believe either his statement at
22 that time or his statement at this time. It's perfectly possible that
23 what he remembered in 1995, he might not have remembered any more in
24 2002. Therefore, I think it was not proper to stress that he was under
25 oath, because the suggestion that he might have lied under oath was of --
1 at least, that he -- we should choose to believe either one or the other
2 is not correct.
3 So therefore, I invite you to ask for my intervention whenever
4 necessary under Rule 91.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for
6 telling me that. Under no circumstances did I wish even to suggest that
7 this witness was lying under oath, because if that had been my opinion,
8 you would have known it very directly, and so would have he. I simply --
9 est enim usulandum affirmatum religiosa. What I mean is simply the
10 following, Mr. President: This statement is made under oath and not the
11 written statement. Therefore, I thought that, in law, there are two
12 different weights to be given to these statements, and that is the only
13 reason why I mentioned this. But I shall pay attention, and in the
14 future, as always, I will ask for your assistance, your kind assistance.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You suggested that a choice had to be made between
17 what he said then and what he said today, and that suggestion was not
19 Mr. Ierace, would you please call your next witness. Or would you
20 say -- I don't know how much time you need to -- we lost already some of
21 the time we gained. If you say we could easily deal with the witness
22 tomorrow, we perhaps better could stop now, but if there's even the
23 slightest doubt, tomorrow is the last day before the Easter weekend, so --
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, Mr. Stamp will be taking that witness,
25 and we are of the opinion that this witness will be comfortably finished
2 Whilst I'm on my feet, I indicate that I won't be present
3 tomorrow, and I simply indicate that in case there is anything planned for
4 tomorrow that might require my presence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think that we have anything special in mind
6 for tomorrow.
7 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, the
9 same courtroom.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.35 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day
12 of March, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.