1 Wednesday, 3 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Madam Registrar, would you please call

6 the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Before the Prosecution will call its next witness, we first have

11 to decide on the admissibility of the documents tendered during the

12 testimony of Mr. Harding. But before doing so, I've one more question.

13 In February, the major objection of the Defence was that the three

14 documents, apart from the photographs, had been disclosed so late that

15 they could not accept this late disclosure and that they were handicapped

16 in the preparation of the cross-examination. At that time, there was also

17 a question about a translation. Has a translation been provided and when

18 has the translation been provided? Could you please, Mr. Waespi.

19 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MR. WAESPI: The translations were given, I think, two or three

22 days after the originals were given in English.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see Ms. Pilipovic nodding.

24 That means that as we indicated already in February, that the main

25 reason at that moment was not to admit these documents in evidence because

1 there had not been enough time to prepare for cross-examination on these

2 documents; and apart from that, they were not translated. As we already

3 indicated at that time, this might change to the extent that if at a later

4 stage there would have been enough time to prepare for cross-examination,

5 if necessary, if the witness would have been recalled to be

6 cross-examined, that the situation might then be different.

7 Well, we are now in this different situation, approximately five

8 weeks in between the first examination of the witness and the final

9 opportunity for the Defence to cross-examine the witness, and the Chamber

10 deems that this was enough. Therefore, the documents are admitted into

11 evidence.

12 Madam Registrar, we had three documents. Perhaps you could please

13 repeat the numbers.

14 THE REGISTRAR: P3661; P3660; P3659.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, they are admitted in evidence. The photographs

16 yesterday, there were no objections any more from the part of the Defence

17 already in February. I see that there are photocopies, coloured

18 photocopies, available for all the parties, so I suggest that the coloured

19 version of these photographs, that is P3662, is tendered and is admitted

20 in evidence.

21 Madam Registrar, then we had the map marked by the witness.

22 THE REGISTRAR: The map marked by the witness, P3644.CH.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted in evidence.

24 THE REGISTRAR: And Defence map, D53.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Also admitted in evidence.

1 Having dealt with the documents, I think, Mr. Waespi or it's you,

2 Mr. Mundis, who is going to examine the next witness?

3 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, it is, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, thank you

7 for giving us the floor. Before the next witness enters the courtroom,

8 the Defence would like to raise once again a problem regarding the

9 documents that were disclosed to us. The reasons for which we objected to

10 the three documents that have just been admitted was a reason of

11 principle. The Defence, like others, no doubt, believes that the Rules of

12 Procedure should be fully observed. We have -- we will hear a very

13 important witness who was in charge of the Fire Brigade and who could

14 testify about the relevant period during the war.

15 Mr. President, we received yesterday documents in the form of a

16 computer printout, the number of interventions carried out by that brigade

17 in Sarajevo. I'm showing this because it is one page, and we have dozens

18 of pages in this same format received a few days ago only or, rather, a

19 few hours ago from the Prosecution. When I look at these documents, I

20 note several things. First of all, on a single page, there is about a

21 hundred items of information, and we received something of this thickness

22 which means we will have several thousand items of information. On some

23 of these documents, 436 problems of translation arise. The Prosecution

24 has managed to transform a written document which is comparable to an

25 epigraph, the contrary of epigraph. So in addition to these problems of

1 translation, it was simply not possible for the Defence to examine all

2 these documents in the few free hours that we have had after the Easter

3 holidays.

4 What I'm trying to say, that what the Defence could have done was

5 to compare each of these pieces of information within the map of

6 legitimate military targets which we're about to establish, and to be able

7 to cross-examine this witness and say to him, "But in this school, wasn't

8 there in reality the barracks of such and such a brigade?" "And in that

9 warehouse, did it not contain trucks in the possession of the army,"

10 et cetera, et cetera? I don't know which Defence in the world could in a

11 few hours perform this work. I'm your humble servant, but I cannot do

12 it. I simply cannot. And if this international justice requires this of

13 the Defence, I can take off my headphones and sit down because I have

14 nothing more to add.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please respond, Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Excel format

17 spreadsheets to which Mr. Piletta-Zanin refers were disclosed to the

18 Defence on a CD-Rom on the 26th of November, 2001. On January 2nd of the

19 present year, we informed the Defence that -- via letter -- that these

20 spreadsheets that were contained on this CD-Rom would most likely be

21 introduced through the next witness. We then did take the additional step

22 of printing out the spreadsheets for the benefit of the Defence, and

23 that's the document to which Mr. Piletta-Zanin refers that was placed in

24 their locker yesterday. However, I should again like to stress that they

25 have had this information on a CD-Rom in electronic form since November

1 26th of last year. And my case manager informs me that they were actually

2 placed in the Defence locker, the printouts of the information contained

3 on the CD-Rom, on the 28th of March, which was immediately prior to the

4 Easter holiday.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you give us some additional information?

6 I'm just giving an example. If you'd use a telephone directory in

7 evidence, that would not mean that you would check the correctness of

8 every telephone number related to every person, not necessarily. It could

9 also be used in order to establish that someone was listed in a telephone

10 directory. Could you tell us a bit about how you intend to use these

11 materials, because this might give us a better understanding of the

12 problems the Defence might have.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Well, Your Honour raises another interesting point.

14 The Prosecution has determined during the final proofing of this witness

15 yesterday that we will not actually be tendering these documents into

16 evidence, but they have been provided to the Defence so the Defence could

17 use them as they see fit during cross-examination. But to briefly explain

18 what these documents are, they are simple compilations of the Fire Brigade

19 records with respect to what the witness will testify as to interventions,

20 which simply means that any time the Fire Brigade was called, documents

21 were made indicating where they went, what type of fire -- the address

22 where they went, what type of fire or other intervention it was. A

23 variety of statistics are then taken which are reflected on these

24 spreadsheets, and then in a final column it indicates, or towards the

25 right of the document, in a column it indicates an assessment based on the

1 senior firefighter at the scene on whether the fire was intentionally set,

2 whether it was due to negligence, whether it was due to an electrical

3 short circuit, et cetera. So they have a preliminary indication of the

4 cause of the fire. Then what happens, these, after each -- after each

5 intervention call, these statistics, if you will, are then assimilated and

6 produced on to these documents which are then the official records of the

7 fire department with respect to all the interventions during a set period,

8 for example, a year.

9 What we've provided to the Defence on this CD-Rom and then in the

10 hard copies were the entire records of the fire interventions during the

11 period of the indictment and then, of course, because they are broken down

12 by year, the entire year of 1992. But they do have the date so that it's

13 quite clear, looking down the columns of the spreadsheets, exactly what

14 date the various interventions occurred. But again, the Defence has had

15 this information in electronic format for several months now. They have

16 also been provided a hard copy of this, and at this point, Mr. President,

17 the Prosecution does not actually intend on tendering these documents into

18 evidence, but again copies have been provided to the Defence. We've also

19 provided them to Madam Registrar so in the event it becomes relevant or

20 the Trial Chamber itself wants these documents, we have multiple copies

21 available for all the parties.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your explanation, Mr. Mundis.

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, regarding the

25 question of CD-Roms, I personally wrote to the Prosecution to tell them

1 that the system is not reliable and that the Defence cannot rely on it.

2 So regarding that particular problem, this is one matter, the CD-Roms.

3 Another matter, Mr. President, is that this Defence team and

4 especially myself, your servant, worked very long hours in order to

5 examine all these documents which, Mr. President, of the first page carry

6 a characteristic stamp of documents that will be tendered by the

7 Prosecution to this Trial Chamber. We tried to extract from them as much

8 information as possible. We spent a lot of time on these documents and we

9 are told today that it is not important because we have decided not to

10 tender this as evidence. Mr. President, I don't know whether this can be

11 accepted. I don't know whether documents can be given to the Defence,

12 knowing that the Defence will probably work all night, which I did, on

13 these documents and then, in the morning, come and say it doesn't matter;

14 you exhausted yourself in preparation but we will not be tendering them.

15 Personally, as the Defence counsel of General Galic, I cannot tolerate

16 this, but it is not up to me.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: At this very moment, there's no decision to be made

19 on these documents. Perhaps I could make one general remark, that if one

20 party sees that it might not use in evidence a rather voluminous document

21 which is on the list and which has the appearance of a document being

22 tendered in evidence, that if it comes to a -- if the party changes its

23 mind and thinks that it's not necessary, that that party should indicate

24 this to the other party. And perhaps there's another issue: If I look --

25 of course, I've not -- this Chamber has not seen the document in any

1 detail. But I don't know whether there's any misunderstanding between the

2 parties, and let me just refer to the telephone directory, the example

3 which I gave before which, of course, is not a real example. If the

4 Prosecution would tender the telephone directory just to indicate that

5 someone was listed in this telephone directory, it should either be clear

6 from the statement previously disclosed that this is the way this

7 telephone directory is going to be used or otherwise perhaps the party

8 using the telephone directory might indicate to the other one that it is

9 not intending to establish the truthfulness of all the numbers listed in

10 this telephone directory, and that they are all correct, because this

11 requires a totally different approach of the other party when studying the

12 document.

13 We haven't seen it in detail, but this is what I urge the parties

14 to do, to make it possible for each other to prepare for the examination,

15 the cross-examination, without any waste of time. And especially with

16 these listings, these very long documents, of course, it could easily

17 happen that one of the parties is concentrating on a totally different

18 issue, different from what the other party intends to do with that

19 document, of course apart from the question on whether the cross-examining

20 party would like to search through these documents to see whether there's

21 anything in it which could assist in its own case presentation.

22 Having given this guidance from the Chamber to the parties,

23 Mr. Mundis, would you please call your next witness. And Mr. Usher, could

24 you assist.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Prosecution calls Mesud

1 Jusufovic.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I take advantage of the break,

4 of the pause, to say that the Defence feels, having exhausted itself, that

5 it did not have the necessary time to prepare for this witness and we wish

6 to make it quite clear for the record.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We've taken notice of your observation,

8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Can you hear me in a language you

11 understand?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jusufovic, I think you're Mr. Jusufovic. The

14 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration

15 before giving testimony in this Court. Mr. Usher will now hand out to you

16 the text of this solemn declaration, and may I invite you to make that

17 declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.

21 WITNESS: MESUD JUSUFOVIC

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jusufovic, having been called as a witness for

24 the Prosecution, you'll first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.

25 You'll then later be cross-examined by counsel for the Defence; and when

1 there are any additional questions the Judges would like to put to you,

2 you'll hear from them.

3 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

6 Q. Witness, for the record, can you please state your full name and

7 date of birth, please.

8 A. I was born in Sarajevo on the 17th of February, 1960. Mesud

9 Jusufovic.

10 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, did you continue living in the city of Sarajevo

11 from the time of your birth to the present?

12 A. Yes. I have been living in Sarajevo all my life.

13 Q. What is your profession?

14 A. I'm a graduate engineer of fire protection and protection at work,

15 but I work as a fire brigade man.

16 Q. And what is your current position within the fire brigade

17 A. I'm commander of the professional fire brigade in Sarajevo.

18 Q. How long have you been a professional firefighter?

19 A. I have been a professional firefighter since 1986.

20 Q. When did the war begin in Sarajevo?

21 A. Well, it really began, the shooting started, as far as I can

22 remember, it was the 5th of April when we were celebrating liberation day

23 of Vratnik, a part of Sarajevo, and we had just prepared for the event.

24 But then the shelling started.

25 Q. In what year was that, Mr. Jusufovic?

1 A. In 1992.

2 Q. And at that time when the war started in Sarajevo, what was your

3 position within the Sarajevo Fire brigade?

4 A. I was, when the war began, I was a chief. I was the third man in

5 the fire brigade.

6 Q. At the time when the war started, approximately how many men were

7 employed by the Sarajevo Fire Brigade?

8 A. Before the war and up until the beginning of the war, there were

9 approximately 150 firefighters. But shortly before the beginning of the

10 aggression, 67 firemen of Serbian origin had left Sarajevo and they no

11 longer worked there.

12 Q. Prior to the departure of these 67 firemen, what was the ethnic

13 composition of the Sarajevo Fire Brigade?

14 A. Half of them were Serbian origin, and half of them were of Muslim

15 origin.

16 Q. At the time when the war started in 1992, can you tell us how many

17 fire stations or substations existed in the city of Sarajevo?

18 A. We had many fire stations, so I'm going to enumerate them:

19 Bascarsija, Centar, Vogosca, Ilijas, Pale, and the airport. So there were

20 six stations before the beginning of the war.

21 Q. In addition to the approximately 150 firefighters, were there also

22 volunteer or reserve firefighters in the fire brigade at that time?

23 A. Yes. The volunteer organisations became specialised units of the

24 Territorial Defence, so they counted approximately -- the Civil Defence,

25 and they counted approximately --

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the number. Could

2 the witness repeat, please.

3 MR. MUNDIS:

4 Q. Can you repeat approximately how many volunteer firefighters there

5 were, please.

6 A. There was approximately 150 of them.

7 Q. And that's in addition to the 150 professional or full-time

8 firefighters?

9 A. Yes. Those 150 volunteers were placed in five different volunteer

10 associations.

11 Q. In order to clarify, can you tell us, these volunteer

12 firefighters, you said they became specialised units. Can you tell us of

13 what organisation they became specialised units?

14 A. Civil Defence, because according to the law then, and the law now,

15 in such situations, volunteer societies become units of the Civil Defence.

16 Q. And once the war began, did the Civil Defence have any military

17 role?

18 A. No. The Civil Defence did not exist for those purposes.

19 Q. Now, these 150 volunteer firefighters, were they assigned to the

20 fire stations that you mentioned a few moments ago or did they report to

21 volunteer fire stations, again, at the beginning of the war?

22 A. They were in volunteer societies, and they had the same duties as

23 professional firefighters. That was their duty during the war.

24 Q. At the beginning of the war, can you briefly describe for the

25 Trial Chamber the type and numbers of firefighting equipment that the

1 Sarajevo Fire Brigade had, again, at the beginning of the war?

2 A. The fire brigade of Sarajevo, up until the beginning of the war,

3 was one of the stronger fire brigades on the territory of the former

4 Yugoslavia and even further. However, as of the beginning of 1992, our

5 commander, who was at the time Radomir Spaic, gradually started to

6 transfer our equipment to Pale, to begin with, vehicles and radio links,

7 fuel, and all the kitchens, kitchen equipment, so that on the 5th of

8 April, we were completely not ready because we didn't have -- we had 12

9 vehicles missing, and all the equipment, almost all the equipment that we

10 had up until that time, we had no longer those equipments. So at the

11 beginning of the aggression, we had 14 vehicles, we had almost no fuel.

12 We didn't have any spare parts, and the situation was very difficult, and

13 they have also abandoned us. Half of the firefighters had left us.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I'm

16 terribly sorry to intervene at this point, but I thought that we were

17 talking -- we were trying actually to avoid terms such as "aggression,"

18 "aggressors," and that was the only purpose of my intervention.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, could you please guide the witness. And

20 I will explain to you, Mr. Jusufovic, since this Court still has to

21 establish what happened at that time, we usually do not use words like

22 "aggressor," because whether there was aggression and who was an

23 aggressor still has to be established in this Court. So if you could find

24 more neutral terms, that would benefit the task of this Court. Yes.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's okay.

2 MR. MUNDIS:

3 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, when you use the term "aggressor," what force or

4 forces are you referring to?

5 A. I was thinking of the JNA and the others, our Serbs who had left,

6 who had went on to various mountains and started to shell us.

7 Q. And when you say "our Serbs," are you referring to Bosnian Serbs?

8 A. Yes, of course, I'm referring to Serbs from Bosnia. That's what I

9 said. Even our firefighters who had left, they have also shelled us and

10 they have also shelled our fire station.

11 Q. As a result of this breakup of the Sarajevo Fire Brigade, did it

12 become necessary to reorganise and restructure the fire brigade due to the

13 large number of firefighters who left?

14 A. Yes. For that reason, all the firefighters were called up from

15 various brigades who had not left Sarajevo, and this is why these

16 volunteer societies were formed, to replace the firefighters that had

17 left. And so this is why we had all spread within the volunteer societies

18 and our departments in order to be able to prepare, accomplish our task.

19 Q. Once the war began, approximately how many firefighters in total,

20 to include the professionals and the reserve, how many firefighters did

21 you have in the Sarajevo Fire Brigade?

22 A. I would not be able to tell you the exact figure because it

23 changed often. There were a lot of people who died. A lot of people were

24 wounded. But during the war in the professional fire brigade, I would say

25 that it was approximately 120 to 150 firefighters, and that counts also

1 for the volunteer, for the volunteers. So let's say, during the war, we

2 were approximately 300 altogether.

3 Q. Did these firefighters continue to man all of the fire stations in

4 the city of Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes. Before Kenan Slinic became commander, he proceeded to

6 reorganise everything, and he called people to start working, and this is

7 when we began work. And those who had not died and who actually were not

8 wounded ended up being firefighters.

9 Q. You mentioned shelling a few moments ago. Do you recall

10 approximately when the shelling started?

11 A. On the 5th of April. There was on Vratnik, in the part of

12 Sarajevo, there was a festivity going on. In 1945, on the 5th of April,

13 Vratnik was liberated then, and every year we would celebrate that date.

14 And we had started to prepare for this festivity, and this is when the

15 shelling began.

16 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, I would like to focus your attention now on the

17 period after 10 September, 1992. Did the shelling of the city of Sarajevo

18 continue after 10 September, 1992?

19 A. The shelling of Sarajevo lasted during the whole war, up until the

20 month of April.

21 Q. April of --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Up to Dayton. I'm sorry, the interpreter is

23 correcting itself.

24 A. I said that the shelling of Sarajevo started on the 5th of April,

25 1992, and it lasted up until 1996, up until Dayton, up until the 31st of

1 January, 1996. This is when the special units of the Civil Defence were

2 dismantled, and this is up until the Dayton agreement.

3 MR. MUNDIS:

4 Q. Based on your experience in the city of Sarajevo during the period

5 after 10 September, 1992, was there a particular modus operandi of the

6 shelling as it related to the fire brigade?

7 A. Those who were shelling from the surrounding hills, they were

8 targeting Sarajevo. And when they wanted to make sure that something was

9 burning, to set up something on fire, they did not proceed this in a

10 military way. And I believe personally that they wanted to burn Sarajevo

11 completely so that they make sure that we have no place to live any more

12 and that we had to leave. So first they would cut the water supply. They

13 had all the taps within their vicinity, so they would close the taps, and

14 this is when they started to also shell our units in Skenderija. And then

15 they would set some monument on fire, whether a historical monument or a

16 residential building, and then they would protect that installation.

17 In Sarajevo, we used to say, when something is burning, you better

18 leave, you better run away because those who had set that installation on

19 fire from the surrounding hills, they were making sure that we were not

20 able to come and put out the fire. And this is the reason why we were

21 scattered at few different places. So when they were targeting one of our

22 installations, we were able to go to the other side.

23 Q. When you indicate that they were shelling from the surrounding

24 hills, do you know which force or forces controlled the surrounding hills?

25 A. The Serbian army of the VRS.

1 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, as part of these attacks, did the fire stations,

2 were they shelled at any time?

3 A. Yes, all the fire stations were shelled. The firemen, the

4 vehicles, the fire vehicles and the stations, everything was being

5 targeted.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will intervene at this

8 point, if I may, with regards to the French transcript. It should be said

9 that in the French transcript, we should be talking about fire stations.

10 This is what we see in the English transcript, but this is the reason why

11 I'm intervening. This was a very important intervention.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what it says in the French transcript,

13 what the confusion is.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. In the

15 French transcript, from what I heard from the interpreters that I'm

16 following, they were talking about "casernes" or stations. "Caserne" in

17 French, "caserne" has a military connotation, so this is why I wanted to

18 make sure we're talking about a fire station, so it is a "caserne de

19 sapeurs-pompiers." So those are only stations that are destined, that are

20 fire stations. These are not military stations. The confusion was

21 perhaps existing in the French transcript, but now it's all cleared up.

22 Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, you were mentioning shelling attacks on fire

1 stations. Can you describe for us whether the stations were shelled

2 before other parts of the city, at the same time as other parts of the

3 city, or after other parts of the city were shelled on a particular day?

4 A. The most important shelling was, for instance, when they would set

5 something on fire, they would not allow us to come out. So when there was

6 a fire going on somewhere, they would shell us at that point so that we

7 cannot go out and put out the fire. That was the reason for the shelling.

8 Q. And during the period after September 10th, 1992, through the

9 middle of 1994, were any firefighters killed by shelling while they were

10 in the fire stations?

11 A. During this period, on the 28th of September, 1992, our station

12 was shelled, the station in Stup. And this is when a fireman was killed.

13 His name was Kalabusic, Sudzia, and he was actually trying to fix a

14 vehicle in the garage. The other firefighters were in the bathroom.

15 That's where they fled. And this is why they stayed alive. He was trying

16 to fix a vehicle, and he died.

17 Q. Now again, during the same period, from September 10th, 1992,

18 through the middle of 1994, were any firefighters wounded by shelling

19 attacks while they were in the fire stations?

20 A. During this period of time, no.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Jusufovic, can you briefly describe for the benefit of

22 the Trial Chamber the type of firefighting equipment, and specifically the

23 type of firefighting trucks that the fire brigade had available to it

24 during the same period, that is, 10 September 1992 through the middle of

25 1994, how many trucks and what type of trucks they were?

1 A. We had 14 fire brigade vehicles. I just wanted to say that today,

2 we have 56 of those vehicles, for instance, to give you an example. Those

3 were older vehicles. And at that time, they were shelled at least twice,

4 so each of these vehicles was hit. And sometimes we would dismantle a

5 vehicle and help create a new one. We were always having problems with

6 the hoses, and they were also hit. So we were not able to put out the

7 fire on higher up, on higher positions, because the hoses would break. We

8 didn't have any fuel. The firefighters had no food.

9 Q. Were these 14 vehicles that you had all of the same type, or were

10 they different types of fire trucks; and if they were different, can you

11 please tell us what type of fire truck they were?

12 A. They were different fire trucks. Some of them were Mercedes, some

13 of them were Magirus TAM.

14 Q. Did all of these fire trucks have water-carrying and water-pumping

15 capacity?

16 A. Yes. Those were vehicles equipped with water tanks and they also

17 had a hose and a pump.

18 Q. What was the water capacity of these trucks that the fire brigade

19 had during this period?

20 A. The fire vehicles were different. Some could comprise 1 ton of

21 water. Others, 8 tons of water. We had four vehicles that could take up

22 8 tons of water.

23 Q. Where did the fire brigade obtain its water supply for these

24 trucks during this time period?

25 A. The only place where we were able to obtain water was from a

1 factory called the brewery because there was a well situated there, and

2 this is the only place where we were able to get water. But the Serbian

3 army was always closing the water down so that Sarajevo, for the most

4 part, was left without water. And especially when there was a fire going

5 on somewhere, they would make sure that they put the water -- turn the

6 water taps off. And that was the only place where we could get our water

7 supply. And it was very dangerous to get to this brewery because it was

8 always under constant shelling. And our vehicles were also being shelled

9 during the trip.

10 Q. These four vehicles that could carry 8 tons of water, how long

11 would 8 tons of water last while you were putting out a fire?

12 A. It's very difficult to say because it was not always the same.

13 Sometimes we use one hose, sometimes ten hoses. But let's say if it was

14 working at full capacity, it would last five minutes. But we never worked

15 with full capacity hoses, from 10 to 12 hoses. We never did that. But

16 all these vehicles didn't mean anything, because at one point if you have

17 18 fires to put out, it was very difficult, and those were large fires.

18 These kinds of fires during peace times would happen maybe once every four

19 years.

20 Q. Did the fire brigade have a means of classifying fires? You talk

21 about "these kinds of fires during peace times." Was there a fire

22 classification system that was employed by the Sarajevo Fire Brigade?

23 A. Yes, there was a classification system. When we talk about these

24 large fires, they were classified in a special way. For the period for

25 which we're talking, as of the 11th of September, there was about a

1 hundred of those large fires, because during -- throughout the war, there

2 were 240 of them. But talking about this particular period of time, there

3 was about a hundred of them. I didn't count them, but I think so. So

4 during peacetime, during peace times actually, something like this would

5 happen over a period of 500 years. So each of these large fires

6 represented for us what for you the 11th of September would mean.

7 Q. Let me make sure that I understand what you've said. During the

8 period from 10 September 1992 through the middle of 1994, you're saying

9 there were approximately 100 of these large fires. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that during peacetime, you would expect a large fire such as

12 each of these 100 to only occur approximately once every five years?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what -- how would you characterise one of these large fires?

15 What do you mean by "a large fire"?

16 A. That means when we get there, it probably represents a fire

17 occurring with a skyscraper. So that means that a few apartments would be

18 set on fire. Usually when we would arrive, all the citizens would try to

19 escape, and we would try to reach the top floors. This is why I wanted to

20 compare it with the 11th of September. It was very difficult for us to

21 put out such a large fire. It is even difficult when there is no war

22 going on; but during the wartime, it was more difficult because there was

23 no electricity, no water. We had to crawl on the floor. During all the

24 time of our intervention, we were still being shelled. We were being

25 fired on. We had to crawl in order not to perish.

1 Q. Why did you have to crawl?

2 A. Because they were always shooting on us, either with shelling or,

3 if they were closer, with automatic weapons, with rifles. We were -- we

4 would even go to try to put out a fire, and we would be shot at with

5 pistols. They were close by.

6 Q. Do you know what type of artillery weapons or other type of larger

7 scale weapons were being used on the city?

8 A. Yes. They were using shells, but there were also phosphorus

9 grenades amongst those. And one of the targets -- one of their purposes

10 what they wanted to achieve is to set an installation on fire. And then

11 they would protect that site so that we cannot approach it. And they were

12 firing on us to try to stop us -- prevent us from actually going there to

13 put out the fire.

14 Q. What would happen when a phosphorus grenade would strike a

15 building?

16 A. The whole building is set on fire so it is very difficult to

17 extinguish it. These are shells that provoke fires.

18 Q. Do these phosphorus shells have certain types of chemicals in them

19 that would help them burn?

20 A. Yes. I don't know exactly what chemicals they are, but they are

21 always used in war. They were used in our case to burn our houses,

22 apartments, so that we would have no place to live.

23 Q. What type of buildings or structures were targeted during the

24 period of time that we have been discussing?

25 A. During this period of time, and also throughout the war,

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1 everything was a target in Sarajevo. Whatever the citizens of Sarajevo

2 used was shelled, from historical buildings on, especially places where

3 there were books because the Serbs didn't seem to like books. So they had

4 a special attitude towards these places. Also, apartment blocks,

5 high-rise buildings, because once a high-rise building burns out, then

6 some hundred families have nowhere to live and they have no other choice

7 but to leave Sarajevo. So everything was a target, from hospitals,

8 kindergartens, and especially this Pivara or brewery, where there was

9 water. And wherever they knew there were crowds, there were a lot of

10 people, like bread lines or water lines, a lot of people got killed. So

11 everything that was of any use to the citizens of Sarajevo was shelled so

12 that they would be deprived of it and they would have to leave.

13 Q. You mentioned water lines. Did there come a time when the fire

14 brigade assisted with dispensing water to the residents of Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes, the fire brigade did assist the citizen in every possible

16 way, including distribution of water, because the only source, as I said,

17 was in this factory called Pivara, the brewery, and the citizens had to

18 cover 10 or 12 kilometres, some even more, to get a jerry can of water or

19 as much as they could carry. It was for that reason that we would

20 distribute water to the citizens, depending on the amount of fuel we had.

21 Usually, when a high-ranking international official was coming to

22 Sarajevo, then the shelling would pause, and that would give us a chance

23 to distribute water to the citizens.

24 Q. Did any of the fire trucks that were distributing water come under

25 shelling or sniping attack while distributing water to the civilians?

1 A. Yes, this would happen regularly. At Vratnik, for instance, in

2 front of the Fire Brigade station in 1993, when we were distributing

3 water, a shell fell and five or six people were injured. A young woman

4 was killed because she was a voluntary firefighter. Her name was Rubina.

5 Q. Do you know if the Holiday Inn hotel came under artillery fire

6 during the period from 10 September, 1992, through the middle of 1994?

7 A. The Holiday Inn was a very popular target. They were constantly

8 targeting the Holiday Inn. I think the reason was that there were a lot

9 of reporters in the Holiday Inn, even some ambassadors. And all our

10 hotels were set on fire, and the Holiday Inn was the only one that

11 remained so that the reporters and officials -- if the reporters and

12 officials had gone to Ilidza, they probably thought that their reports

13 would have been different.

14 Q. Do you know approximately how many times the Holiday Inn was

15 struck during this period?

16 A. The Holiday Inn, as it is in an open area, so when there's a fire

17 there, it's very difficult to reach it. We went there I don't know how

18 many times, and then we had to flee and go back. For that reason, we set

19 up a fire brigade team there which throughout this period was there all

20 the time. Firefighters were in the Holiday Inn, and there was a fire

21 brigade engine in the basement. And throughout the hotel, we distributed

22 hoses so that when it caught fire from an incendiary shell, the

23 firefighters would put it out immediately, and they intervened about 500

24 times. So it means that the hotel was set on fire some 500 times, but

25 there were many more shells, in fact, because not every shell starts a

1 fire. Not every shell is an incendiary shell.

2 Q. Were there other locations in the city of Sarajevo that were

3 shelled so frequently that you set up small fire stations inside the

4 building?

5 A. Apart from the Holiday Inn, there was also the Presidency building

6 and the radio-television building. These were also frequent targets, and

7 it was very difficult for us to have access to them, to reach them, so

8 that we had three or four men in the TV. And in the Presidency, there was

9 one firefighter with a fire extinguisher who would act with that

10 extinguisher. And if it was a larger scale fire, then the fire brigade

11 would come.

12 Q. During this period, did the fire brigade have adequate

13 communication equipment to enable you to communicate with each other?

14 A. The communications, as I said at the beginning, were all taken to

15 Pale before the war so that we didn't have in our possession much. We had

16 some old communications in the vehicles themselves, installations that

17 were 40 years old. And our repeater station or relay station through

18 which we were able to communicate was on Trebevic, and it was silenced

19 immediately and we couldn't use it any more. Because this hill was under

20 the control of the Serbs.

21 Q. You mentioned a few moments ago fighting fires in skyscrapers.

22 Approximately how many skyscrapers were there in the city of Sarajevo in

23 1992?

24 A. I don't know the number. I really can't tell you how many there

25 were. There were many, and many were burnt out.

1 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, how do you define a skyscraper?

2 A. Sarajevo skyscrapers have about 20 storeys.

3 Q. Can you give us an approximation as to the number of buildings in

4 Sarajevo that had 20 or more storeys? Were there five, ten, twenty,

5 fifty, a hundred such buildings? Just a rough estimation of how many

6 skyscrapers in Sarajevo.

7 A. I think between fifty and a hundred.

8 Q. And approximately how many of those buildings were set on fire due

9 to shelling during this period?

10 A. I cannot guarantee the figure, but I think there isn't one

11 high-rise building that wasn't set on fire.

12 Q. Did the fire brigade have adequate equipment to fight fires in

13 buildings that were 20 storeys high during this time period?

14 A. Towards the end of 1992, German firefighters came to Sarajevo and

15 brought with them fire hoses, and from that moment on, we were able to

16 extinguish fires in such buildings as well. We also had fire steps to

17 extinguish fires from the outside. We attempted to use them a couple of

18 times but we were sniped at immediately, so that in this period of time,

19 we didn't dare use those steps because we would have all been killed.

20 Q. By steps, do you mean ladders?

21 A. Yes, mechanical ladders attached to vehicles. They can reach up

22 to 44 metres.

23 Q. Approximately how many floors would that be, 44 metres?

24 A. About 13 floors.

25 Q. So a fire, say, on the 15th or 18th or 20th floor would be

1 unaccessible with these mechanical ladders. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes. But we couldn't use the ladders at all because if anyone was

3 to climb on a ladder, he would be dead.

4 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how you fought

5 fires under these conditions, that is, during shelling and sniping? How

6 would you respond to a fire, what would you do when you got to the scene

7 of a fire, et cetera?

8 A. Well, it was very difficult to reach the scene. So first of all,

9 we had to leave our station, which was under fire, and then in the

10 streets, along the whole route, we would be targeted with shells and

11 snipers. When we finally managed to reach the scene, we didn't dare go in

12 through the door because that is what we did at the beginning. So many of

13 us were killed and wounded. So we had to see from which side we were

14 protected from artillery fire. So we would break through a wall and enter

15 the building, the high-rise building. Everyone would flee from the

16 high-rise as well as from the surrounding buildings. And as I said, it

17 was most dangerous to be close to a fire because we knew that the shelling

18 would start then. Because while they were extinguishing the fire, 200 or

19 300 shells would fall on that building. So the vehicle which was outside

20 the building, and if the fire was on the 20th floor, we had to tie up the

21 hoses and climb up to the 20th floor. This was very difficult, especially

22 at nighttime and when there was no electricity, and this was often.

23 And also, you had to be careful as you moved. Wherever there was

24 a window, a bullet could come in. So whenever you reached a window, you

25 had to crawl by it. And once we reached the fire and started

1 extinguishing it, then these people on the hills would set fire to the

2 floors below, maybe the 10th floor or the 5th floor. And the fire would

3 burst into flames, and then we firefighters would be exposed to choking so

4 that we had to run for our lives. Very often the firefighters themselves

5 had to flee to safety. For some reason, we were shelled most. And the

6 citizens were aware of this, and they fled from us during the war because

7 wherever we were, there was shelling. And they wouldn't let us put the

8 fire out because, for them, it was a success when a high-rise building

9 burned out because a hundred families had nowhere to live and that would

10 mean a hundred families less in Sarajevo, and they would be closer to

11 their aim.

12 And that is why they didn't like us, because we wouldn't let them

13 set our town on fire.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness now be

15 shown a video which is marked P3609.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [No microphone]

17 MR. MUNDIS:

18 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, we are going to show you a video at the moment and

19 I would like you to watch that video. Then, at the completion of that

20 video, I will ask you a few questions about what you see on the screen in

21 front of you.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. MUNDIS:

24 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, having seen that video, did you recognise the

25 building that was in that videotape?

1 A. Yes, I did. I recognise it.

2 Q. Where is that building?

3 A. It's across the road from the electricity distribution building,

4 and I was in charge of the extinguishing of the distribution building.

5 And I saw this building being set on fire, and I called up for new forces

6 to come to this building which was called "sibica" or "match box," and

7 then I switched to that building as well because they needed more

8 firefighters.

9 Q. So you actually participated in extinguishing the fire in the

10 building that we just saw on the videotape?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you briefly describe for us what exactly you saw in the

13 videotape.

14 A. I can't remember now which floor it was, but it was quite high up.

15 It was higher than 15. And the firefighters -- so I actually saw it

16 starting to burn. The firefighters came and started extinguishing it, and

17 then they set fire with incendiary shells, as you could see on this

18 video. They were shooting, and you could see a water seeping out. The

19 firefighter was lying down and that is why he didn't get killed. So they

20 set fire to a lower floor so that we had to save the citizens below as

21 well as the firefighters. We tried to use this vehicle for rescuing from

22 high up; however, we were immediately shot at, even though this side had

23 some protection. So we couldn't use this method. And then the

24 firefighters as well as the citizens started running down the rails, the

25 hand rails of the steps, which was very dangerous, of course. But these

1 were citizens of Sarajevo. They probably were not meant to live.

2 Q. The videotape clearly showed people climbing down balconies on the

3 outside wall of the building. Was that a practice that you saw on more

4 than one occasion in putting out fires in Sarajevo?

5 A. What you saw, a well-trained firefighter, an athlete, could do

6 this but that is what the citizens of Sarajevo had to be in order to

7 survive everything that these from the hills served upon us. So this

8 happened quite often.

9 Q. You mentioned a few moments ago that as you were putting out

10 fires, "they didn't like you." Can you tell us who you meant by "they"?

11 A. I meant this army of the Bosnian Serbs.

12 Q. What was the relationship like between the people of Sarajevo and

13 the fire brigade during the war?

14 A. The citizens liked the firefighters, because the firefighters were

15 the only people who could help them and who did help them in situations

16 like these. So what worse can happen to a man than when his apartment or

17 house is burnt down? And the firefighters would come and put out the fire

18 and save what could be saved. When a house is destroyed by shelling, we

19 would pull out the men and the children from the rubble. One such case

20 was when an intervention occurred prior to this period, 11 people were

21 wounded. About 1.000 people came to the hospital to give their blood for

22 their firefighters.

23 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, during the period from 10 September 1992 to the

24 middle of 1994, where did you and your family live?

25 A. I lived first at Vratnik in my mother's house. And that is where

1 a shell fell through the ceiling and hit the floor, but it didn't explode,

2 so that both I, my wife, and children survived. After that, I moved to an

3 apartment, again, in Vratnik, and there also a shell came through the

4 ceiling and left holes in the mattresses we slept on. However, 5 minutes

5 prior to that, I had taken my wife and children to the basement. After

6 that, I lived in my sister's apartment in Alipasin Most. Here again,

7 several bullets came in. I was mostly with the fire brigade because the

8 state of emergency was continuous. It was difficult to reach work.

9 People got killed as they went to work or went home after work.

10 Q. Did there come a time when your family moved into the fire brigade

11 building with you?

12 A. My family did not, but many families did come to the fire brigade.

13 Those firefighters whose house was destroyed or burnt had nowhere to live,

14 would come to the fire brigade station. I had somewhere to live. There

15 were some 15 families living in our offices, but mostly in the basement

16 because we have a basement in the fire brigade station. And there were

17 some 15 families living there. And as the commander, this was an

18 advantage because the firefighters were there. They didn't have to come

19 and go to work because some would get killed on the way home.

20 Q. Approximately how long did these 15 families reside in the

21 basement of the fire brigade station?

22 A. Throughout the period.

23 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber the effect of the

24 shelling and sniping campaign on your own family?

25 A. It had an adverse effect. My wife and two children did not leave

1 the basement for 18 months. There was no window, no daylight. And

2 there's never any electricity. It was very hard. I had a large number of

3 casualties. My brother-in-law was killed. My nephew of 11 lost his leg.

4 I had to protect him in hospital because he didn't believe that there were

5 no Chetniks in the hospital, and he was an 11-year-old child. The traumas

6 have affected all of us, including the firefighters. It was a traumatic

7 experience. The first time that ten of us firefighters went to Austria,

8 in Split, we walked around -- and this was in 1998. We were walking along

9 the seaside and a ship anchored, and we heard a whistle. And we all threw

10 ourselves to the ground. People thought that we had gone mad. We thought

11 it was a shell. So you see, the memory stuck in our minds.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. I have approximately

13 10 to 15 more minutes with this witness, and I'm about to go into an area

14 that I think would go past the 10.30 normal period where we take a recess.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then I prefer to have a break. We'll adjourn

16 until 11.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, you may proceed to examine the witness.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, I'd like to focus your attention now again on the

22 period from 10 September 1992 through the middle of 1994. Can you

23 describe what relationship there was between the fire brigade and the army

24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. There was no relationship at all. The fire brigade was a civilian

1 association. We had nothing to do with the army, and we had nothing to do

2 with the police either. We were part of the civilian defence, and we were

3 there to save the civilian population.

4 Q. Did the fire brigade have any kind of radios or other

5 communication devices that would allow them to communicate with the army

6 of BH?

7 A. The fire brigade had a radio station, but it was on the fire

8 frequency, fire brigade frequencies. Every state has a special frequency

9 for the fire brigade and those frequencies were quite different from any

10 other frequencies.

11 Q. During the period of the war in Sarajevo, did you personally serve

12 in the ABiH at any time?

13 A. No, I was never within the army of the ABiH, but during the first

14 month, so when the shelling began on the 5th of April, and for a whole

15 month, the neighbours and myself, we had organised ourselves in that

16 portion of Vratnik because we saw on television what was going on in

17 Croatia. They were killing people, and we also heard from our ancestors

18 what the Chetniks did in the Second World War. So during that one-month

19 period, myself and my neighbours, we made some makeshift weapons from

20 various tubes, and we wanted to protect our families.

21 Q. But your involvement with this voluntary defence of your

22 neighbourhood was over by the summer of 1992. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, absolutely. At the end of the month of May, I went back to

24 the fire brigade because that was my job, to work there. I was also a

25 volunteer fireman, and that's the only thing that I know how to do and

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1 that's the thing I do best.

2 Q. Did other members of the fire brigade -- or did any members of the

3 fire brigade serve at the same time in the ABiH?

4 A. No, because that was impossible. There wasn't enough of us. For

5 the most part, we were always working. Sometimes during the period of

6 after working seven days, we were able to go home. After working for 12

7 hours, for instance. Because there were fire everywhere, and when we

8 would go to put out a fire, it would happen that for two to three days we

9 would not come back home. Because, for instance, after a shelling

10 incident, we had to protect -- we had to protect and we wanted to put out

11 the fire. But what would happen is that the neighbouring facilities would

12 also start burning, so we had to put out the fire for two to three days

13 sometimes.

14 Q. Would it be fair to say, Mr. Jusufovic, that members of the fire

15 brigade were exempt from serving in the army of the BH?

16 A. During the war, all the men had to be somewhere. But I do agree

17 with the fact that we were exempt because people who were in the fire

18 brigade, other people who were within the civilian defence, everybody who

19 had a working duty. Because during the war, some people also went to

20 work. They had to go sometimes for 10 kilometres under a rain of shells

21 to go to work. So somebody had -- everybody had to do something, so it

22 was either a working obligation; if you had a working obligation, you

23 didn't have to be a member of the army.

24 Q. Would it be fair to say, Mr. Jusufovic, that during the war, you

25 were in several hundred buildings in Sarajevo extinguishing fires?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In how many of those buildings did you encounter ABiH command

3 posts or headquarter facilities?

4 A. Never. They were all civilian buildings.

5 Q. In any of those buildings did you see any kind of military

6 infrastructure or offices or rooms that were used by the military or

7 barracks that were used by the military?

8 A. No. The only military infrastructure that we intervened for was

9 the Marsal Tita barracks, and when they shelled those barracks, this is

10 when we had to intervene and try to put out the fire, and we were helped

11 by the UNPROFOR.

12 Q. During any of the fires that you helped to extinguish, did you

13 encounter any military weapons, any rifles, machine-guns, or any type of

14 munitions in any of those buildings?

15 A. No. Not at all, except when we had to put out the fire during the

16 shelling of the UNPROFOR barracks and the convoy.

17 Q. In entering any of the civilian buildings, did anyone ever warn

18 you that there were explosives or any kind of military hardware or

19 equipment that might pose a danger for the members of the fire brigade?

20 A. No, it never happened.

21 Q. In which areas of the city of Sarajevo did the fire brigade

22 operate?

23 A. The fire brigade operated in the city centre of Sarajevo, aside

24 from those areas that were occupied. I'm talking about Grbavica, Ilidza,

25 Ilijas, Vogosca. It was always part of Sarajevo. Those parts were still

1 part of Sarajevo but at the time we could not intervene on those areas

2 because those areas were occupied. And during one portion of the war, we

3 were also not able to go to Dobrinja because we couldn't get through. And

4 this is why -- there was a volunteer association there, and they would be

5 in charge to put out the fires in that area. We could also not go to

6 Hrasnica because it was impossible for us to get through, but it was also

7 a volunteer association there, and they were in charge to put out the

8 fires.

9 Q. You mentioned areas that were occupied, to use your term. What

10 force or forces were occupying those areas?

11 A. Those were forces; at the very beginning of the war, it was the

12 JNA forces, together with the Bosnian Serbs. And then they changed signs.

13 Instead of the five-star -- instead of the star, they would change the

14 sign, and the link that existed between the JNA and the military, the

15 Serbian military men, we could see when on Grbavica, there was a fire set

16 to the building of Union Invest, and this is today where we have the

17 building of the high representative. When our firemen were captured at

18 the airport, together with their vehicles, the SDS from Grbavica, the

19 headquarters, called us to go and to put out the fire there. That was at

20 the beginning of the war. And when we said that our vehicles were at the

21 airport, they ordered a JNA colonel to actually let us through, and they

22 did.

23 It was not linked, this period of time, but this was the link that

24 existed, if you will.

25 Q. Is it fair then, Mr. Jusufovic, to say that the fire brigade was

1 limited to those areas that were controlled by the ABiH?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Jusufovic.

4 The Prosecution has no further questions at this time,

5 Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is it you who is going to

7 cross-examine the witness?

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, we, however,

9 expect that the Chamber would allow us -- that my colleague does ask a few

10 questions, if it is necessary.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll allow that. As you know, not

12 simultaneously but one after another. And if you'd please stay within the

13 time used by the examination-in-chief. I'm just saying, because

14 yesterday, a bit more time was taken. I didn't interfere, but therefore

15 sometimes I ask at the beginning to keep it mind. Sometimes I do it

16 halfway, sometimes at the end. But please proceed.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusufovic, good morning.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. Would you be able to confirm to us that on the 21st of June, 1999,

22 and the 24th of June, 1999, you made a statement to the

23 Prosecution's office?

24 A. I probably did.

25 Q. Did you sign and did you confirm in that way that the statement

1 that was given was the truth and everything you said was put down in

2 writing?

3 A. Yes, I signed, and it's everything I said.

4 Q. Thank you. I would like to show you a document. It is a

5 conversation that you had with the investigators of the Prosecution's

6 office on the year 2000 and 2001, in October and in September. Do you

7 remember this? Do you remember that you had an interview?

8 A. Yes, I do remember that there were some interviews, but I could

9 not tell you the exact date.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since the witness

11 confirmed this, I consider that it is not necessary to submit him this

12 statement. Maybe he could just confirm to us that his statement -- that

13 his signature is on the statement, but that is the reason why I didn't

14 show the statement to the witness. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think usually there's no -- until now, we always

16 have had confirmations of the signatures. So if there's no specific

17 reason, I think -- and if the witness has testified that he signed a

18 statement and he has declared, according to the truth, it might be not

19 necessary always to show the signature.

20 Mr. Mundis.

21 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would concur with that. However,

22 Mr. President, it might be just an error in the translation or the record,

23 Ms. Pilipovic also refers to documents concerning interviews in 2000,

24 2001. On those occasions, signed statements were not taken from the

25 witness. Simply, information reports were prepared which were then

1 disclosed to the Defence. The witness indeed signed a witness statement

2 in 1999, however, the documents in the year 2001 were not signed witness

3 statements. And those, to my knowledge, Mr. President, have never been

4 shown to the witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, this is the first time you told me about

6 the signature. It seems to be different from other moments.

7 Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I wish to

9 reply. I did not say that this was a statement. I just merely wanted to

10 confirm whether the witness had an interview, and I know what can be

11 written on an information report that is given to the Defence. I am fully

12 aware of this.

13 Q. Witness, you told us that you lived in Alipasino Polje?

14 A. I said that for a certain period of time, I lived in Alipasino

15 Polje, but that was for about one month.

16 Q. When?

17 A. During the relevant period, that is to say, after the 10th of

18 September.

19 Q. When you say after the 10th of September, of what year are you

20 talking about?

21 A. 1993.

22 Q. Could you be more precise and tell us during which period of time

23 and when did you live in Sarajevo for the longer period?

24 A. In Vratnik. I had an apartment in Vratnik, and this is where I

25 lived for the longer period of time, and in Alipasino Polje, when my

1 brother-in-law died and when my niece -- when my nephew remained without

2 the leg, they were evacuated to the United States. So the apartment was

3 empty and this is where we lived for about one month, because we had about

4 15 bullets that entered my apartment and it was dangerous for the

5 children.

6 Q. When you were living in Vratnik, you told us that you were drafted

7 and you actually participated to the defence of your neighbourhood. Could

8 you tell us, could you confirm to us that it was from the month of April

9 up until the 15th of June, 1992?

10 A. I couldn't tell you the exact date when I went back to the fire

11 brigade because I first went to the fire association in Vratnik, but that

12 was at the beginning of June or perhaps at the end of May.

13 Q. Then when you organised yourself in this manner, were you a local

14 commander? Did you assume that role?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us that after you left your post as a local

17 commander, did the army come to that part of Vratnik?

18 A. Those were citizens at the time. When I was there, those were

19 citizens, and we had made some trenches around Vratnik because it was the

20 first area near Pale. We had about 20 hunting rifles and some makeshift

21 rifles made from some tubes, and when I left, it became bigger.

22 Q. Sir, could you tell me and the Chamber --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just interfere. I feel that the speed is

24 going up. Mr. Jusufovic, you are talking the same language as Ms.

25 Pilipovic does. That means that you can quickly answer, but the

1 translators, the interpreters, need some time to translate. If you would

2 look at your screen, and perhaps give an answer when you see that the text

3 is not moving any more. You see, as long as the translation is going on,

4 the text is moving. When it stops, then perhaps you give the answer.

5 May I remind you as well, Ms. Pilipovic. Yes, please proceed.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, you just told us that you and the citizens of

8 Vratnik had dug up trenches, and you said that you had organised

9 yourselves so that you can defend yourself, and you said that Pale was not

10 far from there. Can you tell us what is the distance between Vratnik and

11 Pale?

12 A. About 5 to 6 kilometres, but I couldn't tell you with precision.

13 Q. When you say "us," "we," during your testimony, you always talk in

14 the plural. You say "we." Could you tell us who is it that you think of

15 when you say "we"?

16 A. I think of myself, of Mesud Jusufovic, Ibro, Himzo, Ejub. I'm

17 talking about us, neighbours, citizens of Vratnik, inhabitants of Vratnik.

18 Q. Did I understand you correctly when you said that your neighbours

19 that you just mentioned, are those Muslim people?

20 A. Names do not mean a thing. I just wanted to tell you that those

21 were neighbours of mine. Those were inhabitants of Vratnik. They were

22 not all Muslim. There were some who were actually Serbs.

23 Q. In your part of town where you lived, you say that not everybody

24 was Muslim. Some of them were Goran. Were there also Muslims and Croats?

25 A. The inhabitants of Vratnik comprise 99 per cent of Muslims, but

1 there were also some Serbs, and there was one Goran and one Dragan in one

2 of our units.

3 Q. Today, you talked to us about headquarters and stations, your fire

4 stations. You told us that they had headquarters. Can you tell us how

5 many municipalities exist in Sarajevo?

6 A. Are you asking me for the period before the war, after the war, or

7 during the war?

8 Q. Before the war and during the war.

9 A. Before the war, Sarajevo had ten municipalities. And during the

10 war, the old city, Stari Grad, Centar, and Novo Sarajevo, Novi Grad as

11 well, Ilidza were part of it. Today, Sarajevo comprises all of those with

12 the exception of Pale.

13 Q. When you enumerated the municipalities in Sarajevo, you talked to

14 us about Stari Grad, Novo Sarajevo, Novi Grad, Centar. Are those

15 municipalities that had, for the most part, Muslim inhabitants?

16 A. You didn't mention the municipality of Ilidza. I never counted

17 them. I didn't know what was the composition of Serbs, of Muslims. I

18 didn't even know how to distinguish them by name.

19 Q. But can you confirm to us whether the municipalities of Pale, for

20 instance, or the municipality of Pale, is it part of the municipality of

21 Novo Sarajevo, Grbavica, Lapisnica? Is that part of Dobrinja? Is it part

22 of Ilidza, Trnovo, Ilijas, Vogosca? Were those municipalities in which

23 during the war mainly Serbian population lived and were those

24 municipalities under the control of the VRS?

25 A. Those municipalities and parts of municipalities who were under

1 the Serb control.

2 Q. Would you agree with me that the municipalities of Stari Grad,

3 Centar, one part of the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, one part of the

4 municipality of Ilidza, and I believe that part of town is called

5 Hrasnica, that those municipalities were under the control of the ABiH

6 army?

7 A. I'm terribly sorry. I didn't understand your question very well.

8 Q. I will repeat my question. The municipality of Centar, Novo

9 Sarajevo, one portion of the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, the

10 municipality of Stari Grad, Centar, and part of the municipality of

11 Ilidza, was that part of the municipality under the control of the ABiH?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you be able to confirm to us whether during the conflict,

14 and we're talking about the period from the month of April 1992, or

15 actually September 1992 up until the month of August 1994, could you

16 confirm to us if in those municipalities front lines were established and

17 that there were conflicts on a daily basis between the two armies?

18 A. The front line was there. With regards to the conflicts, we

19 didn't have so much ammunition in order to have fightings every day.

20 Q. Could you tell us regarding the ABiH what equipment it had

21 regarding clothing and weapons?

22 A. While I was at Vratnik, we had rifles made out of water pipes, and

23 hunting rifles. Later, the army had some automatic rifles, perhaps -- I

24 don't know how it developed during the war. But I do know that when we

25 were shelled from Lapisnica, this is a distance of some 800 metres. They

1 were sunning and shooting at us, and we had nothing to respond with.

2 Q. Witness, during your examination-in-chief, you kept saying, "and

3 they shelled us from the hills." Would you agree with me in saying that

4 the hills and mountains surrounding the city of Sarajevo, and I will first

5 mention Igman, Zuc, Hum, Mojmilo, Brijesce, Sokolje, the hill of Grdonja,

6 Colina Kapa, the big and small one below Trebevic, Hrasno, that these were

7 locations, hills and Mount Igman, that throughout the conflict from April

8 1992 until September 1994 were under the control of the army of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. I don't know that with precision, but some of the places that you

11 listed I know were under the control of the BH army.

12 Q. If I tell you that Brijesce and Stup were under the control of the

13 102nd Motorised Brigade, is that correct?

14 A. I'm afraid that motorised brigade doesn't mean anything to me.

15 Probably -- maybe all of that may be correct but I don't know all these

16 things because I wasn't familiar with them. I didn't have time. We were

17 extinguishing fires.

18 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, you said that in your opinion, the real war in

19 Sarajevo actually started, as you put it, on the day of the liberation of

20 Sarajevo. When you said it really started, did you mean that there was a

21 conflict in Sarajevo before the 5th or 6th of April, the liberation day of

22 Sarajevo?

23 A. It was on that day that the shells started falling. And before

24 that, there were barricades. The Serbs put up barricades. I don't know

25 whether that was February or March.

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1 Q. Will you agree with me that the first barricades in Sarajevo were

2 erected after the Serbian wedding in Bascarsija?

3 A. I don't know that.

4 Q. Do you know that members, Muslims -- that Muslims also erected

5 barricades?

6 A. I don't know about that.

7 Q. If I tell you that in that period, the 1st of March, both Muslim

8 and Serb barricades were erected, as confirmed by many witnesses, and that

9 mixed patrols were formed after that, would you agree with me then, mixed

10 patrols consisting of Serbs, Croats, and Muslims who, in that period, that

11 is in March, controlled and protected the city of Sarajevo?

12 A. I am not aware of any Muslim barricades. As far as I can

13 remember, there were mixed patrols between the army and the police.

14 Q. So you are confirming that the police was part of these mixed

15 brigades that controlled law and order in Sarajevo?

16 A. No, I'm not confirming that.

17 Q. Can you explain what was the role, then, of these mixed patrols,

18 as you see them, police formations, of these police formations?

19 A. I never saw those mixed units, but I heard on television that

20 there were some discussions with Kukanjac that such mixed units would be

21 formed. I know that very soon after that, the JNA revealed its real aim

22 and none of it took place.

23 Q. When you say that the army soon revealed its true face, can you

24 tell us which ethnic groups in those days were members of the Yugoslav

25 People's Army?

1 A. Until then, I mean during the former Yugoslavia, all ethnic groups

2 were represented. I, too, was a soldier of the Yugoslav People's Army but

3 in 1980. But in those days, there were very few Muslims because our

4 recruits did not join the army. They were arrested because they wouldn't

5 go to the army. Many were killed in their sleep.

6 Q. When you tell us that Muslim recruits would not go to the army,

7 can you confirm that already in 1990, in the territory of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, a patriotic league had been formed which was, in fact,

9 an army of the SDA which later grew into the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. If there had been such an army, I would not have been defending

11 with a rifle made of water pipes.

12 Q. So you're telling us that you were defending the part of town in

13 which you lived with a rifle made of water pipes, that this was in April

14 and May 1992. Can you confirm that in that period of time, in the city of

15 Sarajevo, there were paramilitary formations which controlled the city?

16 One of them was under the leadership of Caco, who is from Vratnik, and you

17 know he has his brigade there and that he was buried there; then there was

18 Juka Prazina's brigade; then Cela's brigade; that these were paramilitary

19 formations which, in the period of March, April, and May, ran the city of

20 Sarajevo and engaged in battle and attacked members of the Yugoslav

21 People's Army. Can you agree with me that that is true?

22 A. I cannot agree with that. First of all, Caco is not from Vratnik,

23 and he was never in Vratnik, or his unit was never there. And until the

24 5th of April, there was no army. Who would they attack? From the 6th of

25 April, there were such groups of neighbours and citizens who were

1 protecting their part of town, their wives and children.

2 Q. If you tell us that as a citizen, you were protecting your parts

3 of town and your homes, can I take it that in the part of town inhabited

4 by Serbs, they, too, had the right to organise themselves and protect

5 their homes?

6 A. I don't know about that because we started the defence after the

7 first shells, so I don't know who shelled Pale, and was Pale ever shelled.

8 Q. You told us today that your brigade numbered 150 employed and that

9 there was a division along ethnic lines, as far as I was able to

10 understand, in your brigade. Could you tell us when this division along

11 ethnic lines occurred?

12 A. When the first barricades were organised. There were fire

13 brigades used for that purpose, to erect barricades. It was then that we

14 non-Serbs saw that things were not going in the best direction, and we saw

15 where things were heading. And then the Serbs had a meeting - that's what

16 they said - with Karadzic, and they abandoned the brigade, most of them,

17 67 of them, to be precise, before the 5th of April. Ten of them stayed

18 on.

19 Q. Were there any Croats within your fire brigade?

20 A. There were Croats as well.

21 Q. Did they leave the fire brigade?

22 A. Most of them stayed behind, but there weren't many Croats, to be

23 quite frank. All of them stayed. Later on, one of them left.

24 Q. When you were telling us today about voluntary societies which

25 became specialised units of the Civil Defence, could you tell us when

1 those voluntary societies were formed? Could you explain? Did they

2 function before the war as well or were they formed after the division

3 that occurred within your fire brigade?

4 A. We didn't call it a fire brigade society, a fire brigade.

5 Voluntary societies existed. For example, the Vratnik Fire Brigade

6 Society exists since 1934. The fire brigade society in Novo Sarajevo also

7 was founded that same year. Bjelave, too, I don't know when. Alipasin

8 Most, Ilidza, was operating in Hrasnica. So all these societies had been

9 in existence some 50 years.

10 Q. Can you tell us whether you, as a fire brigade, during the

11 conflict in Sarajevo were operating also in the settlement of Nedzarici?

12 A. We couldn't operate there.

13 Q. Do you know that in the period of 1992, the month of June, that

14 this neighbourhood was set on fire and that it was burning and a special

15 machine known as Voma had been used?

16 A. I don't know about that, nor do I know what that machine is.

17 Q. It's a tank called Voma, filled with explosives, and in June 1992,

18 Nedzarici was set on fire. So I'm asking you whether you, with your fire

19 brigade, extinguished the fire in that neighbourhood?

20 A. If there was a fire and if it was in June, we couldn't reach there

21 because whenever we passed by Nedzarici, we were shot at.

22 Q. When you intervened, could you tell us whether you kept any

23 records; and if so, during the day or during a week, how would you make a

24 record of those interventions?

25 A. That is our standard procedure. Every leader, the person in

1 charge of an intervention, once it is completed, needs to fill in a

2 special intervention form. And in most cases, we filled them in when we

3 had the paper and when the firefighters returned to the station. But all

4 the interventions were not recorded because, for Dobrinja and Hrasnica, we

5 have no records as we couldn't get there. And also, when you intervene in

6 one place, then from that place, you go to another 15. So we would have a

7 record of only that first intervention.

8 Q. So you are telling us that your records were not quite precise

9 regarding all the interventions that you had during that period? I'm

10 talking about the period of 1992, 1993, and 1994.

11 A. Whenever records we kept were in order. There were interventions

12 that were left out because, for the reasons I have given, they could not

13 be recorded.

14 Q. Did you personally, as the brigade commander, compile reports,

15 annual reports, shall we say, about interventions in certain parts of the

16 city and in certain buildings which, in your opinion, were most affected

17 or were more important buildings? Did you keep such records?

18 A. Every year, we have a report on our work, and every year we would

19 hand in that report to the municipal assembly. That was our obligation.

20 Q. When you kept records of your interventions, when filling in these

21 statistical forms about those interventions, did you take note of the time

22 and place? Or rather, could you tell us what is the information you

23 entered into those forms? What is it you considered important?

24 A. I don't know whether you mean I, personally, or we, the

25 firefighters.

1 Q. I'm referring to your services. You are the brigade commander.

2 A. So this is filled in by the person in charge of that particular

3 intervention, and on this intervention form you enter the date, the hour,

4 the minute, who called up to ask for help, from which number, how long it

5 took to reach the scene, how long it took to localise the fire, to

6 extinguish it, and all those who participated in the operation are listed.

7 Q. In this form, did you also enter the cause of the fire?

8 A. Yes, we did. I omitted to mention that.

9 Q. In your opinion, what was the most frequent cause of fires in the

10 city of Sarajevo?

11 A. In my opinion, the most frequent cause of fires was shelling,

12 intentional setting on fire. And there were other causes, too, which

13 occur in peacetime as well.

14 Q. So you're telling us that the intentional targeting was targeting

15 with shells?

16 A. Yes, with shells and bullets.

17 Q. And can you tell us how many interventions you had with fires

18 caused through negligence, unknown reasons, and for technical reasons?

19 A. I think that you can find all that in the document I signed. I

20 can't tell you by heart.

21 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, in answer to a question by my learned friend, you

22 said that the command positions and headquarters of the BH army were not

23 familiar to you, that you did not know where they were.

24 A. I don't quite understand what you mean. I had nothing to do with

25 the army.

1 Q. My understanding was, and correct me if I am wrong, that when you

2 were asked when you intervened, did you know whether it was a military

3 target or not and whether there was any soldiers or ammunition there, you

4 said that you didn't know.

5 A. Maybe you misunderstood. My answer was that we never extinguished

6 fires in barracks or headquarters. There weren't any such cases. There

7 may have been some on the front lines.

8 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, on the basis of your recollection, can you tell us

9 whether you extinguished fires in schools?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you, perhaps, remember extinguishing a fire in the elementary

12 school Pavle Goranin?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Can you confirm that in Sarajevo, there is an elementary called

15 Pavle Goranin?

16 A. I've heard of the name of that school, but I don't know where it

17 is situated.

18 Q. If I tell you that from the statistical forms that you have

19 provided the Prosecution with and the Prosecution disclosed it to the

20 Defence, there is a frequent mention of a building that you intervened in

21 to extinguish a fire was the elementary school Pavle Goranin. So will you

22 confirm that it was in your report as your interventions?

23 A. Whatever is in the report, I agree with, although I personally may

24 not have been involved.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

1 like to read a line from a document that we received from my learned

2 friends, and I have given a copy to my learned friends and also to the

3 interpreters.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence would just like to

6 read from this document. It is a document of the 102nd Motorised

7 Brigade. The commander is Esad Paldum. The document is 0205-6502. It's

8 on the 23rd of May, 1993. It is in the form of an order, and under 1, it

9 says: "Carry out an examination and control of all warehouses and other

10 premises in the barracks at the elementary school Pavle Goranin."

11 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, when you intervened in the fire that broke out in

12 the Pavle Goranin elementary school, did you know there was a barracks

13 there stationing the soldiers of the 102nd Motorised Brigade?

14 A. I don't remember that particular intervention. You're telling us

15 that it exists, so we probably did intervene. But it should be known that

16 schools were mostly not functioning in this period of time. Who would

17 send their child to school when he would get killed 15 times before

18 getting there? So teachers would go to basements and teach children.

19 Q. By saying that schools were not working, are you confirming that

20 the ABiH was using schools as places to station troops?

21 A. No, I'm not confirming that. For instance, the Vratnik elementary

22 school was a popular canteen where humanitarian aid was distributed and

23 food provided for people who had nothing to eat. There was no army there.

24 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, I will tell you that one of the witnesses heard,

25 and who lived at Vratnik, said that the elementary school at Vratnik was

1 used as a canteen for the army.

2 A. Later on, I don't know. But while I was at Vratnik, Mrkva Ejub

3 ran the canteen for citizens who had nothing to eat.

4 Q. From your reports in which you listed the interventions by your

5 brigades, it can be seen that you frequently intervened in the factory

6 Vaso Miskin Crni?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, if I tell you that on the 13th of March, 2002, a

9 witness was heard in this Court who, on page 5304, line 19, said that the

10 headquarters of the Territorial Defence and later the headquarters of the

11 2nd Motorised Brigade was accommodated in the building Vaso Miskin Crni,

12 would you agree with me that in that factory the army was stationed?

13 A. I don't know that.

14 Q. If I tell you that this witness on the 13th of March, 2002, said

15 that the positions of the 2nd Motorised Brigade were in the area of the

16 promenade?

17 A. You're asking me things about the army. I'm a firefighter, and

18 wherever there's a fire, we extinguish it. We now even go to Lukavica,

19 even to Turkey. We don't care what is burning. Wherever there's a

20 fire, we go to extinguish it.

21 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, in your examination-in-chief, you told us about

22 buildings and the shelling of buildings inhabited by civilians. If I tell

23 you that the Loris building is an apartment building and that there is a

24 commercial enterprise in the ground floor where troops were stationed,

25 would you agree with me that troops were also stationed in apartment

1 buildings inhabited by the citizens of Sarajevo?

2 A. Probably not in apartment buildings. As for Loris, there may have

3 probably been soldiers because that was at the very front line. If there

4 hadn't been any soldiers there, then it probably wouldn't be ours.

5 Q. If you say that in the Loris building, which was also an apartment

6 building, and the business premises were used for the needs of the army,

7 and that that was the front line, would you agree with me then that on

8 that front line there were battles being fought between the two armies?

9 A. I know that when we came to extinguish fires at the Loris

10 building, people were living there. And Loris has ten entrances, and

11 maybe in one of those entrances or in some of those flats, there may have

12 been soldiers. But people were living there.

13 Q. Would you agree with me that during the armed operations, and I'm

14 talking specifically about the front line at the Pere Kosoric Square where

15 the Loris building is situated, a fire could have occurred due to the

16 impact of weapons? Could a fire have occurred accidentally?

17 A. Fires were always started by weapons.

18 Q. From the records that you have provided my learned friends with,

19 it can be seen that you very frequently intervened in the area of the

20 Bristol Hotel where there were fires. Is that correct?

21 A. I don't know which area you mean. Bristol was burnt down -- burnt

22 out.

23 Q. If I tell you that a witness who testified in this courtroom said

24 that the positions and the troops of the 2nd Motorised Brigade were

25 stationed in the Bristol Hotel, in the economic school, and the electrical

1 engineering faculty, and that that was the front line along the Miljacka

2 River, and that in this part of the city battles were very frequent, would

3 you agree with me that, due to armed operations by the ABiH and the VRS,

4 fires did break out and that that was the reason for the fire in the

5 Bristol Hotel, in the school, and the reason for your interventions there?

6 A. I cannot agree with that. I don't know about Bristol. Bristol

7 was burnt earlier on. I don't remember any particular interventions

8 around there.

9 Q. During your interventions, during the year of 1992, 1993 and

10 1994, did you ever intervene for the kindergarten on Cengic Vila and the

11 kindergarten in Otes?

12 A. If there was a report of this event, then we did intervene. I do

13 not remember it personally.

14 Q. If I tell you from the Document 0205-6493, it's a document that

15 comes from the 102nd Motorised Brigade, and if I show you this document,

16 the document is destined to the 1st Corps command, and the following, it

17 says: "Due to the changing of zone of responsibility of the 102nd

18 Motorised Brigade, there is a necessity for distribution of electricity on

19 our localities. We're talking about the factory Gisa, the long-distance

20 power lines, Magros, Valter Peric, Klinerja [phoen] and the elementary

21 school Slobodan Vukovic, the Metabin [phoen] gas works, then the primary

22 school Petar Dokic, and the nursery school, the basis of Stela, the

23 nursery school of Otoka, the Marsal Tita barracks, the Energoinvest

24 building, the kindergarten 8th March on Cengic Vila, the school called

25 Pavle Goranin, and Hotel Zagreb."

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1 From your evidentiary leaflets, records that you actually showed

2 showed the Prosecution and that the Prosecution showed us, all these

3 installations are listed. And the 102nd Motorised Brigade is listed in

4 there, and those were the reasons for the fires, and you recorded that

5 very often you had to intervene on those buildings that I just enumerated

6 to you. Would you agree with me?

7 A. We intervened wherever there was a fire and whenever we were able

8 to get to the fire. And every time we would try to do our job, we were

9 always shelled on and shot at.

10 Q. Would you agree with me to say that the reason for these fires,

11 and especially the reason for the fires on the buildings that I just

12 mentioned to you, were always linked to the armed operations and the

13 battles that took place in Sarajevo between two armies?

14 A. I wouldn't agree with you, and I do not know.

15 Q. When you say that you do not know, does it mean that you also

16 don't know who is responsible for the shelling and what the reason for the

17 fires on those buildings are?

18 A. I do know who was the author of the shelling, but when the shell

19 falls on a building, I don't know what is that person's real reason aside

20 from, of course, killing.

21 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, during the time when you were a commander of the

22 brigade or, rather, before you became the brigade commander, did you work

23 somewhere else?

24 A. I started working at the brigade in 1986. On the 11th of

25 September, 1992, I became the commander -- deputy commander.

1 Q. Would you agree with me that up until 1986, you worked in the

2 factory called Pretis Vogosca?

3 A. In the factory Pretis Vogosca, I worked in 1980 for the period of

4 three months and 20 days. After this period of time I worked as a taxi

5 driver, and then I started my employment within the fire brigade.

6 Q. Did you become the commander of the brigade after the death of

7 your colleague Kenan Slinic?

8 A. I was his deputy, and when he died, I became the commander.

9 Q. While you were carrying out your duties as the commander of the

10 brigade and while you were also working as a deputy commander of the same

11 brigade in 1992, 1993, and 1994, did you have any meetings or a meetings

12 with Mr. Stjepan Siber? Did you get together?

13 A. With Stjepan Siber, I never got together with him. I never had a

14 meeting with him.

15 Q. Do you know if your collaborators ever went to have a meeting with

16 Mr. Stjepan Siber?

17 A. No fireman had the necessity to go to have a meeting with Stjepan

18 Siber, but I know that Kenan Slinic was in good terms with everybody, and

19 we knew that.

20 Q. Do you know if Mr. Stjepan Siber published his diary about the

21 events in Sarajevo in 1992, 1993, and 1994?

22 A. Yes, I do. I do know that he published something.

23 Q. Do you know that in that diary that he wrote, he also mentions the

24 fire brigade and he talks about some people from your fire brigade?

25 A. I had heard about something. I think that he mentions Kenan

1 Slinic. There was something with him. But I did not read that diary.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence, with

3 your permission, would like to show the witness an excerpt from the book

4 win by Mr. Stjepan Siber. It's four lines. I have given to my learned

5 friends a copy of this document, as well as to the interpreters. We're

6 talking about the 178th page of the book written by Mr. Stjepan Siber. We

7 are talking about the 19th of August, 1993. Number 3, item 3. "Around

8 noon, the firefighters from Sarajevo came to visit me and -- "

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could you please --

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, you'd like to --

12 MR. MUNDIS: For the record, Mr. President, Ms. Pilipovic did, in

13 fact, provide a copy of this to us during the last break. Unfortunately,

14 there's no English version of this available so I'm not aware of exactly

15 what the document says.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I know that the book has played a role before. Is

17 this true, Ms. Pilipovic, that you provided the --

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see at least that Mr. Mundis is not taking

20 his headphones off.

21 What's your position? I didn't hear any firm objection against

22 reading four lines out of the book. Am I right in my understanding?

23 Although I do understand that you don't like to be confronted with a --

24 MR. MUNDIS: Exactly, and perhaps we'll raise an objection once

25 we've heard the interpreter render the English version. But simply to

1 indicate --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, if you'd please first read the

3 four lines, and if there would then be an objection by the Prosecution,

4 would you please wait to put the question to the witness in relation to

5 the four lines. Please proceed.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. "Around noon, I was

7 visited by firefighters from Sarajevo. They were complaining to me about

8 the commander of the brigade, Mesud Jusufovic, who had taken on the fire

9 brigade after the death of Kenan Slinic. They say that he is proceeding

10 to ethnic division and purges, and he is underestimating the Croats and

11 the Serbs. Firefighters were complaining to this because -- while they

12 were sitting in my office and what is interesting is that they were all

13 Muslims. They say that Jusufovic is pretending to be very much of a

14 religious man, and they say that they have proof that he drinks a lot,

15 gets drink, and he mistreats the other firefighters."

16 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask a question in this respect. "Around noon,"

17 that may be 365 days a year. Could you indicate what time period this

18 part of the book deals with so that we have an impression on...

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was the month of

21 August 1993.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So on the 19th of August, 1993, around noon. I have but one

25 question, Mr. Jusufovic. You did hear what Mr. Siber wrote. In view of

1 your -- the answers given by you during the examination-in-chief and the

2 fact that you very often used the word "us" and "them," is it true that

3 you were proceeding to an ethnic division and that you were mistreating

4 people?

5 A. I did not know that this was written. It was only two months

6 after I became commander. I never heard a bigger stupidity in my life

7 because in the fire brigade, in our fire brigade, there wasn't one Serb or

8 one Croat that didn't have an important position. And since I became

9 commander, not one of them left the brigade.

10 Q. When you say that there is no Serb or Croat occupying an important

11 post, for what period of time are you actually talking?

12 A. I'm talking about the period of time from the moment I became

13 commander. There was one Croat who was creating problems. He would get

14 drunk, and Kenan Slinic replaced him, not myself.

15 Q. Are you telling us that today there are Serbs and Croats that

16 occupy important position within your fire brigade?

17 A. Yes. Yes, that is what I am saying. They have always been

18 there. They have always done this, and they will always be there in this

19 capacity.

20 Q. Can you tell us who was your --

21 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interfere. I see that there's some

22 problem. The witness, at least in the English text, testified, "there

23 wasn't one Serb or one Croat that did not have an important position."

24 Your next question, at least in the English version, Ms. Pilipovic, was:

25 "When you say that there was no Serb or Croat occupying an important

1 post." That seems to be the opposite. I don't know whether it's a

2 translation problem, but at least in the English version it might

3 demonstrate confusion. But if you say you're not confused, I'm only

4 happy.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was not

6 interpreted correctly. And with your leave, I will repeat -- reiterate my

7 question to the witness. I believe that the witness did understand,

8 however.

9 Q. Sir, when you say that during all the period in question while you

10 were the commander of the brigade, within the fire brigade, Serbs and

11 Croats occupied important positions. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell us who is your deputy today within the brigade?

14 A. Presently, we do not have a deputy because according to the new

15 system, job description, that post does not exist.

16 Q. Who was there before?

17 A. It was Cesko Huso.

18 Q. There is a fire brigade unit almost in every municipality today?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us how many fire brigade units are there?

21 A. Eight.

22 Q. Out of these eight fire brigade units, can you tell us how many

23 commanders are of Serbian ethnicity, how many Croat, how many Muslim? I'm

24 talking about units.

25 A. The commander, the deputy, and all the chiefs of the brigade, and

1 there's also a ninth centre, the dispatching centre, so for those units

2 there's one Croat, one Serb, and all the other ones are Muslim.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this puts an end to

4 my portion of this cross-examination. I will consult my colleague to see

5 if he has some questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I have perhaps one additional question to you,

7 Ms. Pilipovic. You confronted the witness with a question about -- you

8 started with, "If I tell you that a witness who testified in this

9 courtroom said that the positions and the troops of the 2nd Motorised

10 Brigade were stationed in the Bristol Hotel, in the economic school, and

11 the electrical engineering faculty, and that it was the front line along

12 the river," could you please give me the source where this testimony was

13 given in this Court because I have something different in my

14 recollection?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have written down,

16 page 5313, lines from 4 to 10. And it's from the transcript on the 13th

17 of March. I could tell you the name of the witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sabljica.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what transcript you are using, the

21 English transcript or...? And perhaps you'd please repeat the lines.

22 5313, because -- let me just have a look.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Lines 4, 10, and 9.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what version you're using, but that's

25 not at least in my transcript on page 5313. What I found, as a matter of

1 fact, is on page 5308, and if it would assist you, I'd just tell you what

2 the testimony of the witness was.

3 Mr. Sabljica testified that: "The positions were in front of the

4 building of the economic school, in the vicinity of the Bristol Hotel,

5 somewhere in front of the engineering school, and the headquarters was at

6 the same location where the Territorial Defence headquarters used to be,

7 that is, within the compound of Vaso Miskin Crni factory."

8 You did put to the witness that there was testimony that the

9 troops were in the Bristol Hotel, which is not, at least, what the witness

10 testified on the page I found. What you did later on, you asked him to

11 mark the Bristol Hotel. You didn't ask him to mark where the troops were,

12 but you asked him to mark the Bristol Hotel. That's what he did on the

13 map.

14 Perhaps during the next break, you could inform me whether there's

15 any better source, because, well, the examining of a witness is finally

16 under my control, and I will not allow, as you may have noticed before - I

17 don't know whether it's true or not in this case - but I will not allow

18 any misrepresentation of earlier testimony to another witness. But if you

19 find a better source, I'd be glad to accept that I was wrong.

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in order to avoid

22 this confusion, I will ask the question.

23 Q. Witness, do you know -- or I will ask the question if he knows if

24 those buildings were on the front line.

25 A. I believe that the front line was Miljacka.

1 Q. I'll then withdraw my question with regards to whether he knows if

2 the military or the army was stationed in those buildings. My question

3 was in fact the following, if he knew, according to Witness Sabljica, if

4 he knew that those buildings were on the front line?

5 A. I already answered that the front line was along the Miljacka

6 River, so Miljacka didn't belong to anybody.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do you have any

8 additional questions? Because that's the last thing you indicated that

9 would happen.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you. I

11 would just like to clarify one point. I would like to ask the Chamber,

12 however, when does the Chamber wish to take the next break?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Normally, we would have a break after seven minutes

14 from now. So if you would -- if it's just one point you want to clarify,

15 that if you could do it in seven minutes, would be fine.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm afraid, Mr. President, it

17 might take just a bit more, and I also had a technical problem.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's start and see where we come.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I had a technical problem in

20 the meantime. My computer that I closed is not operational any more,

21 unfortunately. So I would like to ask you, then, to be kind enough to

22 allow me to perhaps call a technician right now if we have a break. Right

23 now, I will then ask the technician to come and to see what happened to my

24 screen, or if you want me, I can ask questions by memory.

25 JUDGE ORIE: That's the Livenote computer?

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm under the impression

2 that it's not only the Livenote but also the transcript itself.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, usually I connect it by, of course, choosing

4 Livenote, then open the file which is the case, that's the Galic file,

5 then open the transcript. But if a technician could assist you.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, however, I believe

7 Mr. President, I tried so much today. I have a real problem right now.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I'll ask the technician to assist you and perhaps

9 meanwhile we could continue -- or do you need the computer for your

10 questioning?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We never know what the future

12 reserves to us. This is why I would prefer to have this tool.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break for 20 minutes until a quarter to

14 1.00.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I hope that the technical problems

19 have been solved.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

21 Mr. President. Regarding the laptop, it couldn't be fixed, but I will be

22 working on the other screen, on another laptop, hoping that that will not

23 affect anyone.

24 May I continue, Mr. President?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I remind you that -- well, if you would

1 stick very strictly to the time used by the Prosecution, that you have

2 five minutes left. Would you please keep that in mind.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for reminding me,

4 Mr. President. But I'm asked to speak more slowly.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon. Would you please give

7 me the name, first name, and the date of birth of the first person killed,

8 if you could, and loudly, then of the second. Witness, we only have five

9 minutes --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution objects. The question

12 is not quite clear. The first person killed?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you asked for the first person

14 killed. You mean in The Hague this year or in the fire brigade or --

15 perhaps it would be wise to very precise in questioning instead of

16 reminding the witness that you've only got five minutes. Please proceed.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. This witness

18 stated here before you that there were people assassinated in their sleep,

19 murdered in their sleep. So I want to know who it was and I want the name

20 of the first person killed in his sleep, his first and last name, age, and

21 place of birth. It is very important. Because if that is the truth that

22 he has said, it is your duty, perhaps, to start an investigation on the

23 basis of what the witness has said.

24 Q. So Witness, I'm listening.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please answer the question. You referred

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13 English transcripts.

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1 to people that would be killed in their sleep. I think it had something

2 to do with military -- young. I could try to find the place, but you

3 testified about people that would be killed during their sleep. Do you

4 know their names? Please answer the question, then.

5 A. I don't know the names, but I attended their funerals at Vogosca.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, you went to the funerals of people whose name you don't

8 even know. Is that what you're telling us?

9 A. Yes. They were recruits, Muslims, who were killed in the JNA in

10 their sleep, and this happened throughout the war.

11 Q. So you went to attend a funeral, an important event, and you can't

12 tell me a single name, a single first name now in this courtroom before

13 this Chamber? Not a single name, Witness? Not a single little name?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Nothing.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- would you please use your five minutes as you

17 should do it. Small name, big name. The witness has testified clearly

18 that he attended a funeral of one or more persons - I do not know - of who

19 he doesn't know the name. It's of no use to question the way you

20 continued. Yes?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Quite,

22 Mr. President.

23 Q. Witness, give me the name, please, of the firefighters who shelled

24 the city, and you used the plural.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. I'm not aware of the

2 witness testifying about any firefighters who shelled the city.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please indicate the place where the

4 witness said the firefighters -- or is it a translation problem,

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? I didn't follow the French text.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I refer to the

7 English transcript, page 13 --

8 JUDGE ORIE: You are referring to what line?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Line 13, 13, and 13.14. I

10 think there's no possible confusion. [In English] "Who had left, they had

11 also shelled us, and they have also shelled our fire station."

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the question -- the question is whether you

13 could give the name of firefighters that left your department of which you

14 stated -- you testified that they shelled you and shelled your fire

15 station.

16 A. When I said that 67 firefighters, Serbs, left the fire brigade and

17 went, therefore, to join the Serb forces that shelled us, then I confirm,

18 for instance, Mico Cicovic, who was later killed at Zepa. He lives at

19 Pale. Then --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I'll stop you there, Witness. What evidence can you give us to

22 prove that this particular man was behind a gun and that he launched

23 projectiles on Sarajevo?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first ask you, Mr. Jusufovic. When you said

25 that the people who left you were those who shelled you later on, did you

1 mean to say that those individuals were individually participating in the

2 shelling of the city, or did you mean to say that those who left your

3 department later on belonged to the other side of the conflict and the

4 other party in the conflict shelled Sarajevo?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was thinking of this latter

6 case, that they joined the other side, the side that shelled Sarajevo.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

9 Thank you for your assistance.

10 Q. So, Witness, you cannot assert in this Chamber that former Serb

11 firefighters actually operated any weapon to shell you. Is that so?

12 A. I didn't see them shelling, but --

13 Q. Very well. Thank you. When I'm cross-examining you, l should

14 like you to limit yourself to what you saw and knew. I come back to those

15 people who were allegedly killed in their sleep. In which barracks was

16 that and when?

17 A. I don't know whether you understood me correctly. This was in

18 1991 when there was the war in Croatia. We weren't talking at all about

19 this period covered by the indictment.

20 Q. But you yourself spoke about it, not me. Why did you speak about

21 it, then, if you knew the period covered by the indictment? Why did you

22 mention it?

23 A. Because the question was of what -- what ethnicity was represented

24 in the former JNA. And then I answered that there were very few Muslims

25 for this reason. That's the period of 1991.

1 Q. Witness, you were speaking about the period covered by the

2 indictment. How do you know that period? How do you know what period the

3 indictment covers?

4 A. I know that it is from the 7th of September, 1992, until August

5 1994.

6 Q. I didn't ask you what you know; I asked you how did you know that

7 and what is the source of your knowledge.

8 A. I know that before, that all the commanders in command of the

9 siege of Sarajevo.

10 Q. Witness, you spoke about the period covered by the indictment.

11 How did you know which was the period covered by the indictment, which

12 implies that you have a knowledge of the indictment? How do you know

13 that, that you're familiar with the indictment?

14 A. I lived in Sarajevo, and I know all the commanders who were around

15 Sarajevo. I know that General Galic in that period was the commander of

16 the encirclement of Sarajevo.

17 Q. Witness, how do you know the period covered by the indictment?

18 I'm not talking about the period when General Galic may have been in

19 Sarajevo. You used this term yourself, "the period covered by the

20 indictment." Who informed you about that?

21 A. I knew it, and probably I was informed. I asked the Prosecution,

22 the people I talked to, probably. When I was collecting information about

23 interventions, I asked which period they were interested in.

24 Q. You mean, Witness, that when you were collecting your statistical

25 data, you provided them upon request, upon request, I'm saying that, as

1 required?

2 A. Throughout the war, there need not be a request. We collect

3 information. We have these intervention forms. And when they came to

4 talk to me in connection with fire extinguishing and how things were, I

5 presented all the information for the whole period of the war. And then

6 they told me it was for General Galic's trial, for such and such a period.

7 Q. Thank you. So you're confirming now that you did not provide

8 documents upon the request of anyone at all and tailored to a request.

9 A. I don't understand what you're asking me, but let me clarify: The

10 fire brigade has information for the whole war.

11 Q. Let me make my question much clearer. I'm asking you whether you

12 produced documents to cover a certain period at the request, for example,

13 of the Prosecution. Yes or no?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Which documents did you produce?

16 A. The intervention forms, collective data.

17 Q. Would you agree with me, then, that these documents were compiled

18 proforma and, therefore, at the request of the Prosecution.

19 A. The documents were certainly anyway collected. Even if I had

20 never come to this Court, they exist, the data that exists, and I spoke to

21 several officials of the Tribunal.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to

23 show the witness a document, with your permission and with the assistance

24 of the usher.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. May I remind

1 you that I said I would strictly keep you to the time. You would have

2 five minutes. Would you please use your time efficiently.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall try and be as

4 efficient as possible, and I think I'll succeed.

5 Q. Witness, I'm going to show you a document. While the usher is

6 distributing it to all the parties, I would like to know whether you

7 recognise this document as coming from your service. It is Document

8 0020-5173, the ERN number.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps you --

10 THE REGISTRAR: D83.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- could have prenumbered it.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters have a copy, please.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any copies for the interpreters?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't think they will need

16 it, but we do have copies for the booths.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll wait a few moments for

19 the distribution to the booths. I'm sure it will be done very quickly.

20 Thank you very much, usher.

21 Q. Do you recognise this document as emanating from your service?

22 A. Yes. I see my signature on it, too.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you indicate the date of this document,

24 please.

25 A. I don't know. There's no date on it. But obviously I see it

1 covers the period up to 1994 only.

2 Q. Very well. I'm simply going to read, and I thank the booth for

3 following me. I'm just going to read the first sentence of the text to be

4 found on page 3, and I will have a question after that about it. And I'm

5 reading, I'm quoting: "In the period from the 5th of April, 1992 until

6 the 10th of August, 1994, the brigade had a total of 1.065 interventions."

7 Witness, when you look at this date, the 10th of August, 1994, why

8 did you indicate that date on this document?

9 A. I don't know the reasons why this document was compiled, but there

10 were also bulletins that were issued. And in those bulletins there are

11 the names of the killed and wounded firefighters. We were collecting that

12 kind of information.

13 Q. Very well, Witness. What is the number of interventions that I

14 read at the bottom of this list? Is it correct to say 120? Do you see,

15 like me, that the number indicated is 120, Witness?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Will you please turn to page 1 of that document. So

18 it is a list of interventions that your brigade did, and you signed it,

19 though there is no date. Will you read what it says under "3," ordinal

20 number 3. Would you read it out, please, number 3.

21 A. MUP motel.

22 Q. What does MUP mean, Witness?

23 A. The Ministry of the Interior.

24 Q. Exactly. You said under oath in this Chamber that you never saw

25 any military activities, any soldiers, when you went to extinguish fires.

1 And when you went to this MUP building, you didn't see any soldiers?

2 A. I didn't go there. You know that until the end of May, I was not

3 a firefighter.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please refrain from

5 reminding the witness that he's under oath. If it's necessary, you can

6 address me. I told you this before. I'd like you to keep this in mind.

7 Especially I waited until the answer was given. And the explanation of

8 the witness clearly indicates that it was not the moment to remind him

9 that he was under oath. This is not a debating club, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I'm

12 trying to understand things that are escaping me apparently, so I'll have

13 another question under point 4.

14 Q. You have another indication. Will you read it out loud, please.

15 A. "MU building Vratza."

16 Q. Very well. Where is Vratza?

17 A. Above Grbavica.

18 Q. When you have this MUP, is that again the Ministry of the

19 Interior, the same ministry?

20 A. Yes, it is a school, the police school, police academy.

21 Q. Witness, were these targets of a civilian nature, in your opinion?

22 A. There were children of 15 in that facility going to school, and

23 again, that is the same date, the 10th of April, 1992.

24 Q. Witness, I have taken note of your answer. But the establishment

25 itself, you were telling us that children were not going to school any

1 more. But the establishment itself, was it a civilian target?

2 A. On the 10th of April, that had still not been conquered. Children

3 were going to school. People who complete elementary school enroll at the

4 secondary level police academy. And it was attacked - I don't know why -

5 and it burnt down. There was a fire there.

6 Q. Witness --

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry for taking up time,

8 Mr. President.

9 Q. But I'm asking you whether MUP is, according to you, a civilian

10 target. Could you please answer that question for me?

11 A. You have to understand that children were not policemen. This was

12 a secondary school that they are training to become policemen in.

13 Q. Witness, the MUP headquarters, the motel, MUP motel, is that a

14 civilian object or not, in your opinion?

15 A. It perhaps was not a civilian target. I don't know.

16 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, in this list you mention a

17 certain number of other places where, during the 120 interventions took

18 place, because of fires. We have the Loris building. What could you tell

19 us regarding the Centrotrans garage?

20 A. I don't know what you're interested in. I didn't take part in

21 those interventions. But I know that my Stup commander, Mehmedalija, was

22 wounded there.

23 Q. What I'm interested in is what you know about this garage. What

24 was there in that garage? What was in that garage?

25 A. If you are referring to the intervention that I have in mind,

1 there were several interventions. But there were Centrotrans buses there.

2 Q. Those buses, were they used by the army?

3 A. Could you tell me the date of that intervention, and then I'll be

4 able to answer your question.

5 Q. 31st July, 1992.

6 A. I think those buses by then no longer existed. They had already

7 been shelled.

8 Q. But those buses before, were they used by the army?

9 A. That was the beginning of the war. I don't even know that there

10 was an army. We were not an armed force. We didn't have an army.

11 Q. Very well. Until when did you remain a militia force?

12 A. Until the beginning of June, maybe the end of May. I'm not sure.

13 Q. June of which year?

14 A. 1992.

15 Q. I just talked to you about the end of July 1992.

16 A. Yes, but I'm telling you that I don't know. I don't know during

17 that intervention who used the buses. I don't even know if everything was

18 shelled at that point.

19 Q. Very well. Witness, in that list comprised of 120 names, are

20 there any locations that could have been in Nedzarici during the fire that

21 you mentioned earlier, and if so, where?

22 A. I don't know what fire you're talking about.

23 Q. In answer to a question of my learned friend earlier, you talked

24 about a voluntary fire that was put out because there was a -- explosives

25 in that list of 120 interventions.

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the question.

2 The interpreter didn't get it.

3 A. I know that we did not put out the fire in Nedzarici, and I heard

4 that for the first time from your colleague, the mention of this city.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I see that the interpretation asked for the question

6 to be repeated.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I will ask this

8 question again.

9 Q. Witness, on the list that you have before you, is there one

10 installation that would refer to this fire that occurred on Nedzarici?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

12 your intervention. I was not following the transcript that is behind me.

13 A. Yes, I will answer again. Regarding this intervention, I don't

14 know anything of it. I heard for the first time now.

15 Q. Thank you very much for your answer, Witness.

16 I would like to go back to some of your statements --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you indicated to us that you would

18 need approximately, I think you were talking about some 10 minutes, and

19 you had a technical problem as well. You've taken now 35 minutes. You

20 did not use all these 35 minutes in a way which could be qualified as

21 efficient. You get another 5 minutes.

22 If you say -- you are putting your next question, yes. Please

23 proceed.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, are you an expert witness with regards to ballistics, yes

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1 or no?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Witness, did you follow courses when it comes to strategic

4 matters, yes or no?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How were you able to confirm, therefore, that you know what the

7 target was which civilians shelled [sic] because you said that you were

8 not a strategic expert? Did you know what was the objective of the Serbs?

9 A. I knew -- I told you that this was my opinion, because we had a

10 school. Now, I don't know what happened to the other cities that could

11 not defend themselves.

12 Q. It does not say in the transcript that you said that it is your

13 own opinion. I will now take note of the fact that it is your own opinion

14 and not the reflection of truth. How can you know with certainty that it

15 was Serbs who were shelling you? And I am talking in absolutely general

16 terms. If you're not the ballistic expert and you cannot know where the

17 shots came from, how would you know then?

18 A. I am not a ballistics' expert but we knew who was on the hills and

19 we also knew who would call us on the radio to tell us we are going to

20 send you five shells right now, which actually arrived and landed.

21 Q. According to you, Witness, who shelled Markale?

22 A. The Serbian army.

23 Q. How can you confirm this? How can you claim this?

24 A. Because they were shelling all the time.

25 Q. And you claim this as a witness today?

1 A. Yes, I do claim this as a witness.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

3 Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 Mr. Mundis, any need to re-examine the witness?

6 MR. MUNDIS: Just a few questions.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

10 Q. Mr. Jusufovic, you still have before you Defence Exhibit 83; is

11 that correct?

12 A. 82.

13 Q. 82. Can you read for the benefit of the Trial Chamber the heading

14 at the top of page 1 of that document.

15 A. "Fires on buildings of special importance that occurred from the

16 aggressors' shelling and other weapons."

17 Q. Now again, turn if you would, please, to page 3 of this document.

18 There's a reference there to "1.065 interventions" during the dates

19 indicated on that document. Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it's your testimony that the 120 incidents listed on this

22 document are simply a subset of that 1.065 interventions?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I'd like to turn your attention now to the diary of Stjepan Siber

25 that Ms. Pilipovic read a portion to you of. Have you ever met Mr. Siber?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever provide him with any information that he then

3 incorporated in his diary?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did any of your colleagues, friends, co-workers, neighbours, family

6 members, et cetera, ever tell you that they had spoken to this author?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you have any opinion or any information as to the source of the

9 material that was read to you from that book this morning?

10 A. No, I do not. It's very strange because on that date, I had been

11 working there for two months. I was a commander for only two months at

12 that point, and I am very surprised that somebody could say something like

13 this for me.

14 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of Stjepan Siber?

15 A. Yes. I know that he is Croatian.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jusufovic.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Prosecution has no further questions, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jusufovic, I have only a few questions for you.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE ORIE: The first one is, you testified that while you tried

21 to use the, as you called them, firing steps mounted on vehicles, that you

22 were sniped at and that for that reason you couldn't use them any more.

23 When you tried to do this, do you remember what kind of building you're

24 trying -- on what kind of building you're trying to extinguish a fire, or

25 perhaps even if you would remember the building, what building it was?

1 A. It was the building of the PTT and the building that we saw on the

2 videoclip earlier called the matchbox.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Did you try to use it only once or did you try it

4 several times?

5 A. Twice on that occasion, because on both times, they were shooting

6 at us, so we couldn't dare any more.

7 JUDGE ORIE: What I'm interested to know is whether the other

8 building was an apartment block or an office building or what kind of

9 building it was.

10 A. It was the tallest high-rise apartment building in Sarajevo.

11 JUDGE ORIE: With apartments where people lived or offices or...

12 A. It was an apartment building. We call it the matchbox because

13 there are a lot of apartments, workers' apartments in that building.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for that answer.

15 Then you answered a question about the Markale market. Do you

16 have any personal knowledge that you ever had to do with the Markale

17 market shelling incident on an official level?

18 A. I believe that the only thing we had to do was to wash out the

19 blood after the event. That is all. We couldn't do anything else there.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you said the source of your knowledge was

21 that you were always shelled by the Serbian army. Does this indicate that

22 your opinion that it was the Serb army that shelled you was based just on

23 your general experience?

24 A. Yes. From my personal experience.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you very much.

1 Mr. Jusufovic, this ends your examination as a witness, unless --

2 I see that Ms. Pilipovic has still perhaps an additional question in

3 relation to one of the questions --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. I was a bit too quick.

6 Further cross-examination by Ms. Pilipovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] The questions that you just asked, so I have one

8 question stemming from those questions. In what part of the town was the

9 building called the matchbox?

10 A. The social.

11 Q. Where is it, in what part of the town?

12 A. Dolatz Malta.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you then.

14 JUDGE ORIE: After having answered this last question,

15 Mr. Jusufovic, I know it's a very long way to come to The Hague and to

16 testify. And we thank you very much for coming to The Hague, for

17 answering all the questions, of course, the questions and your answers

18 being important for all of us in this courtroom to perform our tasks, and

19 especially for the Court to prepare decisions we'll have to take.

20 So thank you very much for coming, and I wish you a safe journey

21 home again.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please lead Mr. Jusufovic out of

24 the courtroom.

25 [The witness withdrew]

1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please assist us. We saw

2 a video, but that has been played before and it's already known. New

3 documents, Madam Registrar.

4 Yes.

5 MR. MUNDIS: The registrar can correct me if I am wrong,

6 Mr. President, but I believe the video previously was simply marked for

7 identification which is why we had given it the number P3609.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes.

9 MR. MUNDIS: I believe it was marked for identification number 8

10 previously.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The document marked for identification number 8 is

12 a DVD containing various clips, so perhaps that clip was included.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So you now tender the video in evidence.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from that, Madam Registrar?

16 THE REGISTRAR: P3609, the video. D83, the three-page document

17 signed by the witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So the reference to 82 in the transcript was not

19 correct, it's finally 83. Both are admitted in evidence.

20 Mr. Mundis, I see --

21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. Stamp will take the next witness.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp. Yes, we have still almost a quarter of an

23 hour, so I'd like to start, Mr. Stamp. I just hope that the usher will

24 bring the next witness.

25 [The witness entered court]

1 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic - I assume that you're Mr. Fazlic - before

4 giving testimony in this Court, the Rules require you to make a solemn

5 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

6 the truth. I invite you to make that declaration, and the text has just

7 been handed out to you by the usher.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

11 WITNESS: ISMET FAZLIC

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, I'll have to tell you that it will not be

14 very long today that you'll be examined, but we'll then continue tomorrow

15 because we only have a session in the morning hours. But you'll first be

16 examined by counsel for the Prosecution. Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

17 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.

18 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

19 Q. Could you start by stating your name, please.

20 A. My name is Ismet Fazlic.

21 Q. And do you live in Sarajevo?

22 A. I live in Sarajevo.

23 Q. Are you presently employed?

24 A. No. I'm an invalid.

25 Q. To what extent are you an invalid?

1 A. I am 70 per cent disabled.

2 Q. Now, how long have you lived in Sarajevo?

3 A. I was born in Sarajevo, and I have been living there for 46 years.

4 Q. And did you live there in the period between 1992 and 1995?

5 A. Yes. On Dobrinja, in that area.

6 Q. Now, before that period, and that is a period of the conflict of

7 the early 1990s, did you work?

8 A. Yes, I was working.

9 Q. What type of employment were you involved in?

10 A. I was a highly skilled worker for central heating, and I was

11 working in a company called Upi in Jusovici.

12 Q. And during the period of the conflict up until approximately June

13 1993, were you in any way employed?

14 A. No. Since Dobrinja was under blockade, we could not leave

15 Dobrinja for six months.

16 Q. Well, in that period, up until June 1993, were you engaged in any

17 type of activity?

18 A. Yes. I was working as a civilian in the civilian defence of

19 Dobrinja.

20 Q. Now, can you recall the 1st of June, 1993? Were you in Dobrinja

21 that day?

22 A. On the 1st of June, 1993, I was injured, wounded.

23 Q. And in which area, in which district were you injured? Was it in

24 Dobrinja?

25 A. I was wounded in Dobrinja during a football match. It took place

1 on the 1st of June, 1992. I was the referee for a football match.

2 Q. Was this football match the 1st of June 1993 or the 1st of June,

3 1992?

4 A. It was on the 1st of June, 1993.

5 Q. Now, how was this football match organised? Can you tell us,

6 please?

7 A. Yes, I can. As of the beginning of the siege of Sarajevo and of

8 Dobrinja, we lived in the ground, in basements. And then in order to

9 leave the grounds to come outside, we thought that it would do us good.

10 So we organised a football match because youth, as any youth in the world,

11 wished to relax a little bit, to have a taste of freedom. And because it

12 was a beautiful day, the weather was nice, there was no shooting on that

13 day, it was a calm day, we had organised a football match comprised of 12

14 teams with five players each, and each of these players was to give a box

15 of cigarettes. And then the winner would go to Skenderija to play a

16 football tournament.

17 Q. I see. Now, what time was this football tournament arranged to

18 begin that day?

19 A. The tournament began at 9.00. The first football match for which

20 Enver Sabanhadzovic was a referee finished. However, when the second

21 match started, I was the referee for that particular match --

22 Q. Thank you. Was the organisation of this football tournament

23 coincident with any particular holiday period?

24 A. Yes. It corresponded with the Muslim Korban Bajram, but it was

25 not a religious event because everybody participated in that match,

1 everybody who lived in the territory of Dobrinja, Anto, Salko, Ismet,

2 Marko, everybody who wanted could have participated. We all took part in

3 this game. And Marko and Dragan and Damir and lots of them were killed.

4 Q. When you say "lots of them" and "everybody participated," who are

5 you referring to? Are you saying that all the ethnicities that lived in

6 Dobrinja at the time participated in the tournament?

7 A. Yes. And today also. It's a multi-ethnic neighbourhood, and

8 people as people live in Dobrinja. They all live side by side without any

9 problems. People, Serbian, Croats, Muslims, gypsies, everybody who had an

10 apartment in Dobrinja, they all lived there, and nobody was touched during

11 the war.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, you took us to the second game in the tournament

13 when you were the referee. At about what time did that second game begin?

14 A. The second game started around 10.00 in the morning and lasted

15 until 10 -- after 10.00, about 20 minutes maybe, more or less. And

16 around 10 after 10.00, the first shell fell, landed between us and did

17 what it did. And the second shell landed only 10 metres behind, behind

18 some cars, and it just injured one man.

19 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Fazlic. We'll get to that part of it in

20 due course.

21 MR. STAMP: I don't know, Mr. President, if it's a convenient

22 time.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we could have gone for five minutes,

24 but if you say it's better to -- also because the witness is only a few

25 minutes in this courtroom, and it might give him a more comfortable

1 feeling that it was not just for a split second that he was here.

2 MR. STAMP: I'm guided, Mr. President. Thanks.

3 Q. You said two shells landed. But before we get to that, could you

4 just briefly describe the place where you had the football game. Where

5 exactly was this?

6 A. We knew what the situation was in Dobrinja. We were looking for

7 the safest possible place and a place where we could secure. We knew

8 where the commandment was of our General Hadzic, and he told us not to

9 gather, not to have these meetings. But however, we did go outside. We

10 took a corner of a parking lot. We hoped that nothing would happen there

11 because it was 15 metres long by 40 metres wide. And there were cars, old

12 cars, that were damaged and they were placed there. So that area was

13 delineated by these cars, old cars.

14 Q. This area that you selected, was it surrounded by any structures

15 or buildings?

16 A. Yes. That area, it was a corner, the very corner of a parking

17 lot, and it was surrounded on three sides by buildings that were -- that

18 were six-storey buildings. And on the fourth side, there was Mojmilo, the

19 Mount Mojmilo, and that was an open area. So it was not possible to see

20 it at all and not to observe it from any point whatsoever. We would not

21 be discovered if we were having fun, if we were relaxing, if we were

22 playing a football game.

23 Q. Now, about how far from the nearest confrontation line between the

24 two armies in the conflict was that football field or football pitch?

25 A. The confrontation line was at about 130 metres from us away. So

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1 the length of a parking lot, the length of two streets or a green area. So

2 the street is Partizanskih Olimpijada, and then the last buildings that

3 had unpaired numbers -- in pair numbers, odd numbers. And on the Serbian

4 side, it was the Indira Gandhi Street. So only 30 metres away. The

5 soldiers could even shout at each other and talk by speaking out loud.

6 Q. Now, were there spectators for this football game?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where were they located?

9 A. Let me just explain: When we talk about these cars, these

10 old cars that were overturned, the APCs that would arrive along the

11 Lukavica Road, they would shell all the cars that were parked. And those

12 cars were then -- would become used cars, old cars. And this is how we

13 delineated the football pitch, because we put these cars there, and we had

14 turned the wheels towards the football pitch. That's how we placed these

15 cars so that the children -- maybe there was about a hundred young people

16 on these vehicles, from 10 to 15 years of age. I don't know for sure. I

17 couldn't tell you their exact age. And on the other side, there were the

18 spectators, a few women, from 50 to a hundred people also were present.

19 Q. And the apartment buildings which surrounded the pitch on three

20 sides, as you explained to us, were there people there?

21 A. Yes. On the balconies of these apartment buildings, there were

22 people. There were women, children, men, and they were observing the

23 football match. They were watching us play.

24 Q. Now, the people on the ground in the vicinity of the football

25 pitch, those spectators who were on the cars or around the football pitch

1 itself, were they in uniform or not, or did you see anyone among them in

2 uniform or did you not see anyone in uniform?

3 A. No. Let me explain. This was a sports activity. We wanted to

4 relax a little bit. No one amongst the present people did not wear any

5 sign indicating a uniform, not even a uniform indicating that they were

6 members of any police force. Now, it was possible that some of them may

7 have been either police officer or a military man, but these people were

8 wearing civilian clothes. Now, as for the players who were playing ball

9 and myself, we were wearing either jogging outfits or sports outfits.

10 That's how we were dressed.

11 Q. Thank you. And the -- did you notice anybody there that morning

12 with any arms or weapons?

13 A. No. There were passages. Because there was sniping activity

14 coming from all sides of Dobrinja, for the village of Zepa, from the

15 church bell tower, from all the sides, there were some passages. And

16 these passages and the trenches and some basements that had holes through

17 the street, APG, through the odd numbers and even numbers, the army was

18 going on the front lines through Partizanskih Brigada Street through those

19 passages.

20 Q. Now, let's get back to the football game, if we may.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, we continued for another seven minutes.

22 If you're changing subjects, I'd rather have the break now.

23 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, I know that you have been in this Court

25 for only a very short time and your examination will continue tomorrow.

1 So we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

4 1.52 p.m., to be reconvened on

5 Thursday, the 4th day of April, 2002,

6 at 9.00 a.m.

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