Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6607

1 Thursday, 4 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Mr. Stamp, you started to examine the witness Mr. Fazlic

10 yesterday. I think we could resume.

11 MR. STAMP: Proceed.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the

13 witness.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Fazlic.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17 JUDGE ORIE: From your answer, I do understand that you can hear

18 me in a language you understand. You were only here for a short time

19 yesterday in the courtroom. Counsel for the Prosecution will now continue

20 to examine you as a witness.

21 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

22 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examined by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

Page 6608

1 Q. You said last time, yesterday, that you started to referee a

2 football game from about 10.00 in the morning on the 1st of June, 1993?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, the game that you refereed, how many players were there on

5 the pitch, approximately, or exactly, if you know?

6 A. Yes, I can tell you accurately. There were 12 teams of five

7 players in each. Each team had five players, so five would be playing

8 against five. So one match would involve ten players.

9 Q. Thank you. I take it all the players were males?

10 A. Yes, young men, 18, 17, 16, up to 20 years of age.

11 Q. Can you say if these young men were in the army or not?

12 A. Well, let me be quite frank with you; it is normal for some of

13 them to have been in the army, but he was not on duty, he was on leave, so

14 that is quite normal, but many of them were not in the army.

15 Q. Now you said at about 10 to 20 minutes after the game started,

16 something happened.

17 A. Yes. On the left-hand side there was a corner, next to the goal.

18 And all the players went to the left side of the pitch to make the penalty

19 kick, so I moved a metre to the left of the pitch, enable to watch, and I

20 bent down. We carried out the penalty kick, and just as we were doing

21 that, a shell fell among three players; a young man called Dragan and

22 another young man. Then I too was hit by shrapnel, and I saw immediately

23 that there were 11 young men on the ground. Only the goalman, on the

24 right, was not injured. And behind the goal, to the right, another young

25 man was lying down. So eight players were on the ground and three others

Page 6609

1 who were not playing were on the ground. I was the only one who remained

2 standing among them. I was all covered in blood.

3 Q. Where did that shell fall in relation to that area of the pitch

4 where the corner kick was being taken?

5 A. The pitch, as I said yesterday, was about 15 to 20 metres wide and

6 about 40 metres long, so the middle would be about 20 metres, so half the

7 pitch would be a square. And the shell fell some 20 centimetres to the

8 left of the centre. Right in the centre of the pitch, right in the

9 centre, to the left, 20 centimetres to the left, and the spot has been

10 marked.

11 Q. How has that spot been marked?

12 A. The spot was marked with brown varnish. The spot is about 10

13 centimetres in diameter, and in fact, the whole pitch was marked with a

14 stripe 10 centimetres wide. It is brown varnish used for metal.

15 Q. Thank you. Let's take this very slowly now. You remained

16 standing after the shell fell. Did you notice anything in respect to the

17 spectators who were in the vicinity of the pitch where the corner kick was

18 being taken?

19 A. Yes, there were a lot of children on these overturned cars. These

20 cars had been turned over ever since the 4 or 5th of April 1992, and they

21 were standing there. There were about 40 cars that had been destroyed on

22 that parking lot, and we lined them up to prevent the ball from getting

23 away. And the children were on these cars, and they all fell on their

24 backs, all the children. I thought that a lot of children had got killed;

25 however, it so happened that 82 or 83 were wounded, some of them lightly,

Page 6610

1 some of them more seriously, and eight were killed.

2 Q. What happened to you after the shell fell? Did you feel

3 anything?

4 A. I took a step towards the passageway and the building, and I

5 couldn't move any further and I fell. There was blood gushing out from

6 five places; my upper leg, lower leg, all over my stomach, and my spine.

7 My whole left side was totally damaged. My skin was in a terrible state

8 and I couldn't move. I was lying in a pool of blood that was gushing out

9 from me.

10 Q. Now, before you fell, did you observe anything else? May I

11 rephrase that.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did you observe?

14 A. Yes. I saw three of my players totally dismembered, their legs

15 and arms. It was only their track suit that held them together, and I

16 saw, on the right, the citizens were planting onions there, and a lot of

17 people were on the ground there, people I knew who were behind the goal.

18 And I saw a young man under a car who was already dead.

19 Q. Now --

20 A. That was the first shell.

21 Q. Was there any other shelling at that time?

22 A. Yes. Three or four seconds later, after the first shell, a second

23 shell fell. But it missed the vehicles and fell some 10 metres behind the

24 vehicles that we had used for protection. And a young man was hit. His

25 leg was injured. The shell fell in front of him and broke off his leg.

Page 6611

1 Q. When this second shell which fell about three to four seconds

2 after the first shell fell, were you standing or had you yet fallen?

3 A. Well, I can't remember exactly, because there was panic, and I

4 thought another one would fall.

5 Q. Thank you. How far from the first shell did the second shell

6 land?

7 A. Well, about 12 to 14 metres away, roughly. I didn't measure it.

8 If the pitch was 15 metres wide, half is 7, so then behind the vehicles,

9 that would make it 15 or 16. I can't tell you exactly. But you have the

10 video that I myself made, and you can look at it, if you like.

11 Q. Thank you, we'll do that in a moment.

12 Now, were you taken to the hospital?

13 A. Yes. 16 were killed on the spot, and 82 were wounded, some

14 lightly, some more seriously. Some wounded children ran home, thinking

15 that they could -- their parents would treat their wounds, and they were

16 wrong. An infection set in. And as there was no fuel and no vehicles for

17 transportation -- you know what Dobrinja was like. If you don't, I can

18 explain it to you if you ask me. There were only three vehicles

19 available, and there were 82 of us. Some were on the boots of the cars;

20 some were on the roofs, on the engines, on the gear box, so that people

21 were running alongside, holding us so we didn't fall. And Jusuf Hajir,

22 who was in charge of the hospital, sent us to the state hospital that used

23 to be a military hospital, and then he divided us in half. Some went to

24 the Kosevo Hospital, and others to another hospital so that we were

25 distributed among three hospitals in Sarajevo.

Page 6612

1 Q. I see. Now which one did you go to?

2 A. I first arrived at the Dobrinja hospital, and they saw me, that I

3 had been badly hurt. Then they transferred me to the former military

4 hospital. They just gave me a drip and treatment for shock, and then I

5 was transferred to the university clinic at Kosevo where I was immediately

6 treated.

7 Q. How long did you remain at the Kosevo Hospital?

8 A. I stayed 56 days, or rather, about two months. I was wounded in

9 both legs. I couldn't move for 50 days. I couldn't get out of bed.

10 Q. Tell us, if you can - you should be able to - what was the

11 nature of your injuries and whether or not you have any lasting physical

12 effects as a result of the injuries.

13 A. Yes. The injuries were dangerous. One affected my right foot, my

14 right foot was cut off by part of the shell. Another one hit the bones of

15 the left foot. Then I was hit 25 centimetres, close to the anus [as

16 interpreted] of my upper leg. One hit me in the neck, and also in the

17 spine. One shrapnel hit my lungs, one in the eye, so that I see double.

18 And there was superficial injuries in the stomach. There were numerous,

19 numerous fragments. Maybe thousands, because I was only three and a half

20 metres away from where the shell landed.

21 Q. And have you any lasting consequences from the injuries?

22 A. Yes, I do suffer consequences. The shell must have been a

23 magnetic shell. I still have some shrapnel in my body, and I developed

24 serious infection twice. Then my pancreas has been affected. After that,

25 I developed asthma. Then my left eye, I see double; and I have a piece of

Page 6613

1 shrapnel in my tongue which makes breathing and talking difficult.

2 Q. What's the condition of your legs now?

3 A. One of my wounds is still open and is -- still open so that I'm

4 unable to do anything, though I'm 57 years old, and the injury in my leg

5 has still not healed fully.

6 Q. Which leg is that?

7 A. The foot of my right leg, my right foot is swollen.

8 Q. Now, did you recover from the hospital a medical certificate in

9 respect to your injuries and treatment?

10 A. Yes, yes. I immediately received a certificate. You have it with

11 you, the discharge document from the Kosevo clinic. And I didn't bring

12 the documents from the Dobrinja hospital, whereas I was bandaged for three

13 months after that under the most difficult conditions and under sniping.

14 I went during the winter when the land was covered with snow and ice, and

15 people would drive me there, as they could, though there was a sniper on

16 the church.

17 Q. Which church is this?

18 A. It's the Serbian orthodox church, a newly-built one, and the

19 facade had not yet been completed. And up the scaffolding, anyone could

20 climb, and it is only 400 or 500 metres away from this football pitch.

21 And the church steeple could easily be climbed upon because of the

22 scaffolding.

23 Q. The church from which the sniping came, was it under the control

24 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina or was it under the control of the

25 army of the Republika Srpska?

Page 6614

1 A. I told you yesterday that the separation line held by the Serbs

2 and the BH army was along Indira Gandhi Street, the Partizanskih

3 Olimpijada, across the bridge, next to the school, and this church was

4 about 100, 150 metres away from the separation line on the Serbian side.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, Your Honours, may I

7 have the witness look at the document marked P1197.


9 MR. STAMP: And English translation is P1197.1.

10 Q. Is that document you have in front of you a copy of the discharge

11 paper that you received from the Kosevo Hospital?

12 A. Yes. Just look at the date of birth. It says 1941 but it's

13 wrong; it should be 1945. The date of birth, 1945, not 1941. And on page

14 4, everything else is identical with the documents that I have, and other

15 documents that I have in my possession.

16 And the last document, Fazlic Ismet, again, instead of 1941, it

17 should say 1945. I was born in Vogosca. My parents lived in Sokolac, so

18 nobody came to Sokolac for four years. In 1940, 1941, and 1992, my family

19 has been forced to leave their estate. You can look and inquire the

20 condition in which those houses are, the houses of my parents which they

21 had to abandon.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just to

24 mention, this witness has a document made of four pages in the original

25 language, and we only have three pages in the original language. There is

Page 6615

1 a fourth page missing.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have only received three

4 pages.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I had some difficulties in following any reference to

6 page 4 as well.

7 MR. STAMP: Yes, I was just about to --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

9 MR. STAMP: Could I, Mr. Usher, have that document which he has.

10 Thank you. Mr. Usher, could you put the document on the ELMO,

11 please.

12 Q. Witness, could you put away any other document that you have and

13 photograph that you have. Please have a look at the document to your

14 right, and could you just point out for the Court what you referred to as

15 page 4.

16 What did you refer to as page 4? Could you let us know, please.

17 MR. STAMP: I think the error arose from the fact that he was

18 presented the document along with the translation, and he is pointing to

19 the first page of the translation as page 4, and which explains this same

20 error which he refers to on the first page of the B/C/S copy in respect to

21 the date of his birth being the similar mistake on the first page of the

22 translated copy.

23 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

24 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. Usher. Thank you.

25 Q. Now, the places where these two shells impacted, has anything been

Page 6616

1 done at those sites?

2 A. Yes. Two years ago.

3 Q. One moment. Could you put away your photograph, please. Put it

4 away.

5 A. Yes. Two years ago, from the municipality of Novi Grad, people

6 came to indicate the spot and the places where people were wounded. And I

7 personally showed these people where the two shells had landed, not only

8 myself but it was a few of us. There was 10 or 20 people of us who had

9 been injured, wounded. We came along to tell them where the shells had

10 landed. We call the area Sapa where it landed.

11 Q. The impact sites where the shells landed, were there any craters

12 or damage caused to the asphalt of the parking lot where the shells

13 landed?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Terribly sorry to interrupt.

16 I have not heard the place, the name of the place. We would like to

17 verify it on the map. Maybe this witness could tell us, if he remembers.

18 What is the last word he just said, so that we can follow on the map? The

19 last name of the site that he just mentioned, please.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the word? It's Sapa.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Is that clear enough for you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the

22 last answer?

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, personally I'm not too

24 certain. My colleague will probably be able to find it. I can see if

25 it's written here on the map. No, it is not clear. Unfortunately, we

Page 6617

1 cannot find it on the map. Could the witness please spell the name or

2 repeat it clearly so we can know what he is talking about.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat it slowly, the name you just

4 gave us.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can call that area Sapa, where

6 the shells landed, we call it Sapa. It's S-A-P-A. It's the impact site

7 where the shell hit the asphalt right in front of me.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for repeating your answer.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

10 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. That impact site where the shell hit the pavement in front of you,

12 and other impact site where the shell fell some 15 metres away caused

13 damage to the pavement, I take it. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, we can see very clearly the trace on the pavement of all the

15 shells and shrapnel that had hit the pavement. The pavement is a hard

16 area, it's a hard -- it's hard and the shrapnel was able to get through,

17 and they had damaged the asphalt. Four to five centimetres deep was the

18 damage, and as soon as the shrapnel hit the pavement, they would then

19 ricochet. So on the side where I was standing, the pavement was scratched

20 more whereas on the other side, the side opposite of where I was standing,

21 we can see that the pavement was scratched at only a few places because

22 the shrapnel had just ricocheted very quickly, and they fell off -- fell

23 away.

24 Q. Thank you. Now --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 6618

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm terribly sorry, Mr.

2 President, but this is very important for us to establish whether this

3 witness talked about the sidewalk. I'm not too sure if he talked about a

4 sidewalk. Maybe we can ask him the question.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course, if there's any

6 clarification needed, you can do that during cross-examination. It's not

7 the way we usually deal with these kind of -- of course, if there's

8 something which is totally unclear for everyone, you could interfere. But

9 otherwise, Mr. Stamp may examine the witness. If there's anything

10 unclear, you can clarify it during cross-examination. That's the usual

11 way. I'll allow you now -- well, you've asked it, so I'll ask Mr. Stamp

12 whether he could ask clarification from the witness. But usually, if

13 there's anything unclear, it's during cross-examination that you're able

14 to clarify with the witness what is --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr.

16 President, for this observation. But by doing this, I am only abiding by

17 one of the instructions of your Chamber. You have asked me to intervene

18 as soon as there is an interpretation problem, and in French I heard

19 "trottoir." I did not wish to interrupt the witness in order not to break

20 the rhythm of my colleague. I asked for the end of the intervention. I

21 wanted to be honest by waiting, but next time I will intervene immediately

22 as Mr. Stamp is asking questions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: If it is a matter of interpretation, please indicate

24 so that it's quite clear to me that we have a language problem rather

25 than a problem of the content of the testimony.

Page 6619

1 So whenever you think there's a problem related to translation or

2 interpretation, please make that clear so that we know exactly what we're

3 talking about.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is the reason of my

5 intervention. I did not wish to bother anybody inside this courtroom.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, you noticed what the problem of Mr.

7 Piletta-Zanin was. Could you please try to find out whether there's any

8 misunderstanding or not.

9 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President. As it pleases you.

10 Q. You were speaking about the two shells that fell on the 1st of

11 June, 1993. Did any of them fall on a sidewalk?

12 A. Excuse me, please. If we're talking about asphalt on a parking

13 lot, if we call that a sidewalk, well, I don't know what this gentleman is

14 thinking of. Sidewalks are made out of concrete --

15 Q. Mr. Fazlic, could you just, for the sake of economy of time, just

16 let us know if any of the two shells that you are speaking of fell on a

17 sidewalk or did they fall on the playing -- on the car park surface?

18 A. Well, must I really explain to you how wide the parking lot is?

19 I've already explained where the shells fell. The parking lot is wide, 15

20 metres wide, and it is 14 metres long, and the shells landed right in the

21 middle. So it's seven and a half metres away from the sidewalk, so seven

22 and a half metres from the sidewalk fell the first shell, and 24 metres

23 away was the impact site of the second shell. It is very clear, you

24 cannot discuss it. A sidewalk is the end. It's 80 by 100. That parking

25 lot is made of the -- there are sidewalks all around it. If you want to

Page 6620

1 talk about pavement or asphalt, asphalt is the surface that covered the

2 parking lot. We can even see it today, it's very clear on the pictures.

3 You can have it here. There are no problems here. So both shells fell on

4 the asphalt of the parking lot. On the asphalt of the parking lot, not on

5 the sidewalk.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Fazlic. Now, you just waved a picture.

7 Is that your photograph?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. For the time being, we're not going to use it. Could you please

10 put it away.

11 A. Sure.

12 Q. Thanks very much.

13 Now, the two shells, you said, caused some damage to the impact

14 site where they landed. Have those areas where those two shells which

15 fell on the 1st of June, 1994 -- 1993, I beg your pardon, been preserved

16 in any way?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How?

19 A. There are some red substance that has poured into the -- that was

20 poured into the holes that were left by the shells. So this is how we

21 marked the spots.

22 Q. Now, in that parking lot, are there other marks from other

23 shelling?

24 A. Yes. It's not only one trace, but 1.100 spots that were left on

25 that parking lot. Different calibres of various shells, mortars. I'm not

Page 6621

1 a specialist, I cannot tell you what calibres there were exactly, but I

2 know that I would bring cars in that parking lot before -- I was actually

3 putting out fire on the cars that were in the parking lot, cars that were

4 set on fire, they smelled bad, and those were holes in the asphalt, and so

5 the asphalt was damaged.

6 Q. I take it from your answer that that parking lot had been

7 mortared, or shells from mortars had fallen there on other occasions.

8 Were these occasions before or after the 1st of June, 1993, or both before

9 and after the 1st of June, 1993?

10 A. Please. At the very beginning of the war -- I'm not talking about

11 aggression, the aggression or anything like that. I did not say those

12 words. I will never say these words. May the experts call it the way

13 they will. But from the very beginning, the shelling of Dobrinja - and

14 I'm only talking about the Dobrinja neighbourhood, please. I'm not

15 talking to you about Sarajevo because I did not go to Sarajevo. I was not

16 in Sarajevo. I was only in Dobrinja. There was not one single day where

17 one or two or three shells didn't land, either in the corner of the

18 parking lot -- but you can see our dressing rooms only 15 metres away from

19 the parking lot. There was a tank in from Lukavica, from the barracks, in

20 all the four -- the heating plant was damaged. And it happened that they

21 missed it and then the shell damaged four apartments and the corner of the

22 building -- the apartment building was not at the front line, it was not

23 where the battles took place. It was directly fired from Lukavica in a

24 straight line from a -- from a tank. And the parking was shelled with

25 mortars --

Page 6622

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, if I may interrupt you. I'm fully aware

2 that you'd like to tell the whole story of everything you experienced. I

3 hope, on the other hand, that you'll understand that in this courtroom, we

4 hear a lot of witnesses. One is telling us about a specific moment;

5 another one is telling us about other moments, or some are telling us

6 about the whole period of time. I think the Prosecution has called you

7 specifically in relation to what you experienced at this football match.

8 So since we have to use our time as efficiently as possible, I'd ask you

9 to respond to all the questions by Mr. Stamp, or later on by counsel for

10 the Defence, and leave it to counsel on what are the most relevant issues

11 to be discussed with you. Not because I do not understand that you would

12 tell us perhaps for hours all you know, but since in this courtroom we

13 have to find a way of getting in the information in such a way that this

14 trial will not take seven years.

15 Would you please answer specifically on the questions of

16 Mr. Stamp. And I think his last question was whether there had been any

17 mortars or shells landed before or after the day of the football match on

18 that same parking lot.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Before and after.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

21 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

22 Q. Now, in respect to those other marks caused by those other mortars

23 which landed, were they preserved by the same red thing which was poured

24 into those two which landed on the 1st of June, 1993?

25 A. No. Those shells that had fell left an impact mark, and they can

Page 6623

1 still be seen today. They did not injure anybody, just the cars. They

2 just hit the cars that were overturned, and there was a fire. The cars

3 were set on fire.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, do you recall in September -- I beg your pardon.

5 In the year September 2001, showing OTP investigator Barry Hogan and

6 Commandant Hamill the two impact sites from the 1st of June, 1993?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And those are the two impact sites in the parking lot which had

9 been marked with red, or with a red substance?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And did you point out for OTP investigator Barry Hogan certain

12 positions on that parking lot where the incident happened?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And this was done -- and this was recorded on a videotape?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, I'd ask that videotape

17 P3281B be played.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Leave is granted, Mr. Stamp.

19 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.

20 [Videotape played]

21 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Could you please show me, by standing

22 on the spot, where one of the posts -- goalposts was located on the 1st of

23 June, 1993.

24 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

25 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Would you now please show me, by

Page 6624

1 standing on the spot, where the second goalpost at this end of the parking

2 lot was located on the 1st of June, 1993, to the best of your

3 recollection.

4 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

5 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Could you now please show me, by

6 walking to the spot and standing where the goal was located at the other

7 end of the playing field, to the best of your recollection, on 1st of

8 June, 1993.

9 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

10 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: I will mark this spot with an X with

11 yellow paint with the number '1' beside it.

12 "Could you now please show me, by standing on the spot, where the

13 second goalpost for the goal at this end of the playing field was located,

14 to the best of your recollection, on the 1st of June, 1993.

15 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

16 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: I will mark this spot with yellow

17 paint in a figure X with the number '2' beside it.

18 "Could you now please show me, by standing on the spot where, to

19 the best of your recollection, you were standing on the 1st of June, 1993,

20 when the first shell exploded.

21 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

22 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: I will now mark this spot with a

23 yellow X in yellow paint, with the number '3' beside it.

24 "Could you now please show me, by standing on the spot where, to

25 the best of your recollection, the first shell exploded on the 1st of

Page 6625

1 June, 1993.

2 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

3 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Mr. Fazlic, could you now please show

4 me, by standing on the spot and indicating with your hand, the outer limit

5 of the playing field which was lined with wrecked cars, to the best of

6 your recollection, on the 1st of June, 1993.

7 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

8 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Once again, could you please stand on

9 the spot and indicate with your hand as you stand on the spot.

10 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

11 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: I will now draw a line along this

12 plane with yellow spray paint.

13 "Could you now please show me, by standing on the spot, where, to

14 the best of your recollection, the second shell exploded on the 1st of

15 June, 1993.

16 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

17 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Mr. Fazlic, one final instruction,

18 please: Could you please walk to the other end of the playing field and

19 indicate the corner where the line of old cars came together, to the best

20 of your recollection, on the 1st of June, 1993.

21 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

22 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: I will now mark this location with

23 yellow paint in a line along this plane. And along this plane. Thank

24 you very much."

25 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

Page 6626

1 Q. Mr. Fazlic, the places that you indicated on that videotape, were

2 those indications made to the best of your ability and recollection?

3 A. Yes. Yes. Because I measured the playing ground, and I painted

4 it with paint, with brown varnish, the day before.

5 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, may I also show the

6 witness a photograph?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's a 360-degree photograph.

8 MR. STAMP: Yes. And that is P3672A. I'm sorry, P3678A.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That's the number that appears on my list as well. I

10 just repeat that the Defence opposes against the use of this type of

11 360-degree photographs. The Chamber is aware of that.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

13 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Could it be moved a little bit to the right.

15 Thank you. Stop.

16 Q. There are some hills there to the background in that photograph.

17 What's the name of those hills?

18 A. That hill is called Mojmilo. It starts from the municipal water

19 supply system to the Lalovic houses. That hill is where the municipal

20 water supply is, and where the transporters for the water were.

21 Q. And in relation to the football pitch, in which direction is that

22 hill?

23 A. One could say it was to the north of the football pitch, and on

24 three sides are six-storey buildings. And I think that this hill is to

25 the north.

Page 6627

1 Q. Thank you. So this -- may I just phrase it as a question. Under

2 whose control was this hill in June 1993; which party to the conflict?

3 A. This hill was virtually no man's land. Up here, there's a forest,

4 and there was a sniper, a VBR, operating along this meadow so that nobody

5 could move around, but it was under the control of the army of BH.

6 MR. STAMP: Could you move the photograph to the right, please.

7 Stop there.

8 Q. And is this one of the blocks of the -- one of the blocks of

9 apartment buildings which was on one side of the car park?

10 A. Yes. You can see the nylon cover, that is my apartment. And this

11 was the passage for civilians going to Dobrinja. It's called 3B. The

12 steps were made subsequently, and the handrail. In front was a shell that

13 made this big damage at the beginning of the war.

14 MR. STAMP: Could you move that to the right slowly, please.

15 Stop there, please.

16 Q. In the background, there's another apartment block, and this would

17 have been on the -- another side of the car park. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes. This is the apartment building forming a 90-degree corner,

19 and this passage leads to the square where a tank and a sniper from

20 Dobrinja IV were active, so this was completely shut off with boards,

21 wooden boards.

22 Q. Now, in the foreground of this photograph, there is a semi-circle

23 with a chain linked around that semi-circle. Could you describe what that

24 is?

25 A. Yes. I was a welder, working for the central heating, so I made

Page 6628

1 these bars and tied a chain to them to mark an area that vehicles could

2 not park in. And we wanted this area to be marked and a monument to be

3 built, and this is a monument marking where this happened. Actually, it

4 happened in front, but as it's a parking area, we couldn't put it on the

5 exact spot. It still exists to the day, and fresh flowers are put there

6 regularly and I can show you a photograph of what it looks like.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. STAMP: Could you move the photograph to the right a bit more,

9 please. And stop there.

10 Q. And those are the apartments to the -- well, which direction is

11 that?

12 MR. STAMP: So that I don't lead him at his answer.

13 Q. Can you say which direction are we looking into now? Can you say?

14 A. You are looking from the position where I was wounded towards the

15 west. Where the white vehicle is parked, there is another passage. This

16 is the second passage that the people of Dobrinja used because they

17 wouldn't dare go to the right because there was a tank, and a sniper, and

18 along Kasindolska Street, no, not Kasindolska, Lukavica Street to

19 Nedzarici, there was protection there out of overturned vehicles, but

20 there was a passage that we could use.

21 MR. STAMP: Could you go a little bit to the right, please. Stop

22 there, please.

23 Q. You pointed out already Mojmilo hill. Now we're to the left of

24 that first place we stopped at. There is a tower in the centre of the

25 photograph, towards the background. What is that tower?

Page 6629

1 A. I'll explain for you. This is our central heating plant, for

2 central heating. And it was hit with several projectiles from a tank.

3 Everything was destroyed, and that white dot that you see in the white

4 area -- four times this tower was targeted but it couldn't be overturned

5 because it is made out of one piece.

6 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much.

7 Now, within this area bordered by these three apartment blocks,

8 are there any military facilities, to your knowledge, or were there any

9 military facilities in June 1993?

10 A. Not here. To the front and towards the east, towards Lukavica,

11 over here, towards Lukavica, yes. The front lines. There were military

12 facilities, and we had no access there. We needed to have passes from the

13 ABiH. Each one of us needed to have a pass. I've kept this pass, to be

14 able to move around. I could show it to you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm really sorry, but I think

17 that the witness said in his mother tongue, which is Serbian - Ms.

18 Pilipovic will correct me - that he spoke of the first lines rather than

19 the front lines. I think that the distinction is important because

20 neither the English translation nor the French interpretation mentioned

21 this. So could the witness repeat what he said, and I think it is rather

22 important that we get it correctly.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, when asked whether there were any

24 military facilities within the area bordered by the three apartment

25 blocks, you said "Not here, but..." What did you then exactly say? Did

Page 6630

1 you say to the first lines, to the front lines, or...?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said in front, yes. And that

3 means as we're looking at this picture, so towards us, the separation line

4 was there between the BH army and the Serb army. The Indira Gandhi Street

5 and the Partizanskih Olimpijada are two parallel streets leading towards

6 the River Dobrinja. One street is used by a bus going to the school in

7 Dobrinja I. It is 8 metres wide and it has two green surfaces, and that

8 is where the separation line was. There were military facilities there,

9 and the military zone was there, and we were not allowed access to that

10 area.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So you're talking about separation or front lines and

12 not about first line or second line or third line. You referred to

13 separation lines -- line, yes.

14 Does that clarify?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness used, and we can

16 hear the tape if necessary -- just a moment, please.

17 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to have a

19 clarification, which I think is useful for the discovery of the truth,

20 could the witness simply say whether he used in his mother tongue the

21 expression "the first lines," because that is what we heard a moment ago,

22 and we can verify on the tape, whether a moment ago he used the word

23 "first lines," yes or no.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, it's not a normal way to do it, but since

25 I do not speak any B/C/S: Mr. Fazlic, the Defence would like to know

Page 6631

1 whether you used in your answer a certain word in your own language. That

2 word will now be spoken by Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Could you please then

3 confirm whether you used that expression or did not use that expression.

4 Would you please give the expression.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Ms. Pilipovic will tell us

6 what is the expression used by the witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic will give an expression. Could

8 you please confirm whether you used that expression in your answer or not.

9 Please, Ms. Pilipovic.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

11 Mr. Fazlic, in answer to a question from my learned friend, did you say

12 that you were unable to go to the "first front line" that you had no

13 access to the "first lines"?

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, without permission. Everything is clear now.

15 Yes, without permission.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

17 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Witness, I'm asking about the enclosure, that enclosure which is

19 surrounded on three sides by three blocks of apartments, do you know of

20 any military facilities being in that area in June 1993?

21 A. No. I can list all the military facilities and tell you exactly

22 where they were, if you wish.

23 Q. I'm quite sure we'll get to that. Thank you.

24 Now, can you say about how large this parking lot in total is,

25 approximately?

Page 6632

1 A. Well, you see the parking is marked on this picture. One parking

2 area is 220. So the whole area is 80 by 110 metres. And there's a guard

3 here next to the heating plant. Look at that. And then I know exactly,

4 it's 80 by 110, 112 metres. And there are four such parking areas in a

5 line.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. I take it your answer is that the size of the

7 parking lot is about 80 by 110, 112 metres. Is that so?

8 A. Yes, that's so. Judging by the vehicles.

9 Q. Thank you. And on the south side of the parking lot, there's a

10 grassy area, a lawn which goes towards the apartment block to the south.

11 Would you like to refer to the photograph again? Please turn to the

12 photograph.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must object.


15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have the impression that one

16 is asserting that this or that is to be found in this or that direction.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please rephrase.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The question is in the form of

21 a statement.

22 MR. STAMP: Very well.

23 Q. Witness, please have a look at the photograph again.

24 MR. STAMP: Please turn the photograph to the right again. It's

25 P3678A.

Page 6633

1 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any technical difficulties in moving it?

2 At least, your case manager --

3 MR. STAMP: Yes, please move it to the right.


5 MR. STAMP: Stop there.

6 Q. You said that was north? Earlier you said the hills in the

7 background, Mojmilo, was towards the north?

8 A. I don't have a compass to be able to tell you exactly, but judging

9 by the sun, where it rises, I think this is to the north, towards

10 Sarajevo.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. STAMP: Please turn to the right. Stop there.

13 Q. This set of apartments which borders the parking area would be to

14 which direction if the hills are to the north?

15 A. This is the east, if I'm standing here where I was wounded.

16 MR. STAMP: Okay. Please turn it approximately 90 degrees. Go

17 on, turn it to the right 90 degrees. Stop there.

18 Q. That area of apartment blocks --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'd like to find my way,

21 Mr. President. We are told that we would be turning roughly 90 degrees,

22 and personally I'm not sure that this corresponds to 90 degrees. But it

23 is merely an observation so that we can find our way in the transcript.


25 Q. Mr. Fazlic, that area of apartment blocks, can you say

Page 6634

1 approximately which direction it is from the car park?

2 A. That is south. You see, the grassy area with the children's

3 playground. Before the war, there was a slide and a playground for

4 children.

5 Q. Now, that is a grassy area I'm referring to. From the edge of the

6 car park, the apartment building, about how far it is from there to the

7 apartment block?

8 A. Well, you see --

9 Q. Approximately what is the distance from the edge of the --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 THE WITNESS: There's a fire brigade path here.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There are three blocks of

13 apartments on the photograph, so that we know exactly what we are talking

14 about.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it took us now one and a half

16 minute to get to a grassy area which, as far as I can imagine, even my

17 wildest imagination, could not be in dispute. You objected because the

18 question was leading. As you know, usually the parties are allowed to

19 lead the witness especially when there is a matter which is not in

20 dispute. On this picture, I think there can be no doubt as to whether

21 there's a grassy area at that part of the parking lot. We're looking now

22 to an apartment block. We went there slowly, going from one apartment

23 block to another apartment block. I'm afraid that this is clear to

24 everyone, perhaps not to you. But I think if it's so clear, that it's up

25 to you to make it clear for yourself.

Page 6635

1 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

3 JUDGE ORIE: I allowed Mr. Stamp to proceed at this very moment.

4 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Mr. Fazlic, could you just tell us approximately what is the

6 distance in metres, if you can, just tell us how many metres,

7 approximately, it is from the edge of the apartment -- from the edge of

8 the car park to the apartment block to the south of the car park.

9 A. Would you please listen to me.

10 Q. I will --

11 A. I can count the distance. There are 46 or 48 metres from the edge

12 of the monument to the fire brigade path, which is only 4 metres from

13 these buildings. From this corner where this vehicle is, right around the

14 buildings. So this is a new neighbourhood. A fire brigade path was

15 built, and no vehicle is allowed to pass. Children can play there, and

16 there are all kinds of games for them. It has now been repaired --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, may --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are my flowers here.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If you would be able to give a specific answer on a

20 very specific question. The question was about the distance. If you know

21 about the distance, tell us. If you have difficulties in assessing it,

22 tell us that it's difficult for you. But you give a lot of other

23 information which I'm certainly aware is very important in your view, but

24 we leave it usually to counsel to point at the issues that are most

25 relevant at that moment.

Page 6636

1 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


3 Q. I take it that the distance between the edge of the car park to

4 the apartment building to the south is about 52 metres?

5 A. Yes. 46 is the grassy area, two and a half metres is the fire

6 brigade path, and then 4 metres to the building. Is that that important?

7 Q. Thank you, very well.

8 A. Too many questions. I'm not an expert to measure. I should have

9 measured the whole of Dobrinja and give you the measurements. And I would

10 if I could walk.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, may I ask you at the same time how much

12 time you would still approximately need. If it's just a matter of a

13 couple of minutes --

14 MR. STAMP: It's a matter of maybe two or three questions.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You don't know how many minutes that is.

16 MR. STAMP: It would be probably two minutes, but I wonder, if it

17 is not inconvenient, if we take the break now.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if we could finish the examination-in-chief

19 in a couple of minutes, we'll do that and it's more natural to have the

20 break.


22 Q. The crowd was gathered in the small corner of the car park which

23 you showed us on the video.

24 A. Yes. Yes. People gathered.

25 Q. And the two shells fell within 15 to 20 metres from each other

Page 6637

1 where the crowd was gathered. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I take it you said that they were just a matter of 3 to 4

4 seconds apart.

5 A. Roughly.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 Can you say if, to your knowledge, or if you have any information

8 which could assist us, whether or not persons on the other side of the

9 confrontation line would have been aware that you were having a football

10 tournament that morning?

11 A. Yesterday, at the end, I told you that we were protected on four

12 sides, and it was not possible with binoculars to discover what was going

13 on. They couldn't know, as far as the first lines and the soldiers on

14 duty on the first lines are concerned. Now whether someone else knew

15 where this particular part of the parking area was where we were playing,

16 if a shell had fallen, it could have landed on the green surface, the

17 heating plant or anywhere else instead of amongst us. So it means that

18 someone after all must have known that there would be a match, because an

19 evening before that, a shell fell only 10 metres behind the playground, or

20 rather, to the north of that playground. And I showed the gentleman the

21 spot. It has been marked, too.

22 And then the next day in the morning, it was quiet, a beautiful

23 day. We came out. We made a mistake. That was our destiny. We knew.

24 There was an order from the army that not more than three men should

25 gather in one place because they would be hit. That is how they could hit

Page 6638












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6639

1 our children.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 You said a shell fell the night before, in the parking lot. Do

4 you know if it was a mortar shell or any other type of shell? Do you

5 know?

6 A. The same, the same calibre, the same holes, the same sounds. That

7 was a test.

8 Q. How -- I beg your pardon. You said the same holes. The mark left

9 by the shell which fell the night before, was it similar to the mark left

10 by the shells which fell on the 1st of June, 1993?

11 A. The same.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. STAMP: Nothing further, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Stamp.

15 Mr. Fazlic, we'll have a break now for half an hour. And upon

16 resuming, it's counsel for the Defence that will put questions to you. So

17 we'll adjourn until 5 minutes past 11.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine

21 the -- it will be Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I understand.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence is ready. I shall

25 be conducting the cross-examination. May I proceed?

Page 6640

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Witness.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. Thank you. Thank you for coming back in this courtroom. The

7 Defence is at your service. We know very well that it is incredibly

8 painful for you to be here after having been hit by these thousands of

9 shrapnels that you mentioned earlier.

10 I saw that you have pictures with you, or a picture. Would you be

11 able, please, to take it out to show it to us.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I ask you, is it your

13 intention to tender anything in evidence, or is this a photograph you know

14 what is on it?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I do not know at all what

16 this picture represents, but I know that this witness knows things. So

17 rather than clipping his wings and stopping him from saying what he wishes

18 to say, why do not we let him show us evidence, pictures, and I believe

19 that maybe the witness may explain to us --

20 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you do not know what is on the

23 photograph, at least you should ask the witness about what type of

24 photograph is in his hands, what is on this photograph, in order to find

25 out whether this could be relevant evidence or not. We'll not allow any

Page 6641

1 of the parties, nor the Defence nor the Prosecution, to just say, well,

2 tell me what you've got there, show it on the ELMO, and we'll see whether

3 it will be of any help.

4 On the other hand, if there is relevant material in the possession

5 of the witness, then of course we could ask whether the witness is willing

6 to give it to the Defence. I mean, you have got nothing at this very

7 moment in your hands which you could offer as evidence.

8 So first, try and see whether you will be in a position to offer

9 anything in evidence. Please proceed.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,

11 Mr. President. But I thought that the witness in his own language said

12 that he had his -- he had himself taken pictures of the parking lot and

13 the precise spot where the incident occurred. If I misunderstood, the

14 witness will tell me, but this is what I thought I heard. And therefore

15 the pictures in front of him represent - this is only, of course, a

16 logical inference of the Defence - but those pictures represent probably

17 the parking lot.

18 Q. Is that so, Witness? Yes or no, please.

19 A. This picture is the monument erected at the spot where the crime

20 happened. I brought it because I want you to see it, and I want my

21 children to see it. I hope that this will never happen to anybody; not in

22 New York, not in Sarajevo.

23 Q. Thank you very much, sir. We will put the picture on the screen

24 later on, if you will allow us. However, I will begin with asking you

25 some questions. I will first ask you some military questions.

Page 6642

1 Do you know Mr. Hadzic? Do you know Mr. Hadzic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Sir, do you know if Mr. Hadzic was a high-ranking military

4 representative?

5 A. Yes, he was not a military person before the war.

6 Q. Thank you for this answer. Thank you.

7 Witness, tell us, this high-ranking official, was he a commander

8 of a brigade in Dobrinja?

9 A. Excuse me, I said before the war he was not a military man. He

10 had another profession.

11 Q. But I'm talking about the period during the war.

12 A. He was a brigadier.

13 Q. Very well.

14 A. Of the 5th Motorised Brigade in Dobrinja.

15 Q. What was his rank, please? Could you give it to us, if you know?

16 Was he a general, a colonel, for instance?

17 A. I said he was a brigadier. It is a rank of a lieutenant colonel,

18 former lieutenant colonel.

19 Q. I will interrupt you right now. You said "brigadier. " If I

20 interrupted you, it's because I hear the interpretation in another

21 language, and I heard, in the French language, "sergeant." So he was not

22 a sergeant but a commander of this brigade. Is that so, Witness?

23 A. Yes. If a commander of a brigade is a brigadier, then he was a

24 brigadier. He was a commander of a brigade.

25 Q. You are perfectly right, and I thank you for this precision. Now,

Page 6643

1 Witness, would you be able to tell us, what was his designation? I'm

2 sorry, what was the designation of this brigade? Was it the 1st, 2nd,

3 3rd?

4 A. I just told you that it was the 5th Motorised Brigade.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness. I do not believe I heard you if you said how

6 many men are in a brigade.

7 A. I am not a military expert. If you would have asked me for the

8 former JNA, I would have been able to tell you.

9 Q. Would you please answer. If you know the situation for the former

10 system, you may give me the answer then, please.

11 A. Three to four battalions, if you know what a battalion is.

12 Q. Witness, thank you. I do understand, but unfortunately, not

13 everything, as I am told. Can you, therefore, since you know what the

14 situation is, can you tell us with precision how many men are in a

15 battalion?

16 A. Excuse me, please. I was a tank driver of the T-55 tank, and I

17 served my military service in the JNA. I was a T-55 tank driver. I could

18 not tell you how many men are in a battalion. I can give you an

19 approximation. I can tell you a hundred, 200 to 300 but I'm not too sure.

20 Do not ask me these questions. Those are superfluous words for me. I am

21 not a historian, I am not a military expert.

22 Q. Terribly sorry, Witness. But please do understand that I do not

23 know everything that you know so that is why I must ask you some

24 questions.

25 Very well. Now, do you know if in Dobrinja there were some

Page 6644

1 barracks where people, men, belonging to this brigade were stationed?

2 A. In Dobrinja, there were no barracks, but atomic shelters. These

3 men -- no, they are four atomic shelters. In Dobrinja IIIA, IIIB in

4 Dobrinja, because it is a new construction. They have built atomic

5 shelters that can hide 3.000 people, approximately. And in those atomic

6 shelters were the headquarters of the armies and so on and so forth.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will

8 interrupt the witness here. I think we have some interpretation problems.

9 The witness just said, and my colleague knows -- my colleague Ms.

10 Pilipovic knows what the problem is. I do not see it in the transcript.

11 But it is a minor, perhaps, language problem.

12 Q. I'm asking you the following question because I did not go there,

13 I do not know. But in other words, were there barracks built outside and

14 not in basements? Were there facilities, buildings with walls where

15 soldiers were stationed, so therefore outside?

16 A. It is possible that those were dormitories for the soldiers,

17 whereas the command post was in Dobrinja II and the offices were there as

18 well. With regards to the atomic shelters, this is where all the other

19 types were stationed. It is possible that some may have slept in some

20 apartment --

21 Q. Very well. Thank you for your answer. When you tell us that the

22 soldiers were in those shelters, you are talking, referring to apartment

23 buildings. Is that right?

24 A. No, I told you that Dobrinja is a new construction built under the

25 new conception. And each Dobrinja has -- each part of Dobrinja has atomic

Page 6645

1 shelters, and there are three atomic shelters, and they did not allow us

2 to use, us civilians, those atomic shelters. We remained in basements, in

3 trenches, in the worst possible installations whereas they took the atomic

4 shelters.

5 Q. Very well. Thank you for your answer. Now, we're talking about

6 atomic shelters. We also have some in our country. Those are shelters

7 that are built under apartment buildings. Is that so?

8 A. No. These shelters are built on the square. There are four

9 buildings in the shape of a V. And right in the centre, there's a

10 shelter, so that you have one, two, and three shelters along the same

11 line, and the length of it is two kilometres. It's like an avenue.

12 Q. Well, when you're talking about a square, are you talking about a

13 square covered with asphalt?

14 A. No. The square was not -- did not have an asphalt surface. The

15 square is about a metre to a metre and a half above the asphalt and above

16 the street level, and I'm talking about the shelter. The shelter is

17 elevated. So there's a ground level, it's a metre and a half from the

18 ground level, and it's approximately, long, 40 to 45 metres in length.

19 And inside, in its inside, the ground, where today you have various shops.

20 Q. Very well. Witness, am I understanding you well, did you say that

21 the army was stationed between those apartment buildings but in these

22 basements, and those were fortified basements?

23 A. Yes. In that atomic shelter, or rather, on that square, because

24 the atomic shelter does not reach the apartment buildings. It's in a V.

25 It's in the shape of a V. There are four buildings, and right in the

Page 6646

1 centre there's the atomic shelter. 40 times 45, the length is 45 metres,

2 and then there's the entrance and you have a generator for the air, and

3 this is what it looked like.

4 Q. Very well. Civil Protection members know what it was. I

5 understand. But for now what I wanted to visualise is the following:

6 These shelters were situated between each group of apartment buildings, in

7 order to service those apartment buildings? Is that so?

8 A. I did say there were three atomic shelters, in Dobrinja IV under

9 Serb control, one in Dobrinja IIIB and one in Dobrinja IIIA, and they're

10 one after the other in the same line, and those are three squares.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

13 Q. You said that the 5th Motorised Brigade was there. Would you be

14 able to give us the name of the street where the command post of this

15 brigade was, therefore, of the 5th Motorised Brigade?

16 A. Just for Dobrinja II.

17 Q. Very well. Witness, do you have an idea of the street name where

18 the headquarters were?

19 A. Please do not ask me this question, because there are so many

20 streets in Dobrinja. Right now, I cannot remember, believe me. You are

21 tiring me.

22 Q. I'm terribly sorry to interrupt you. When you're telling me not

23 to ask you this question, are you telling me that you cannot remember, or

24 are you telling me that you do not wish to answer my question? I

25 understand both versions. I understand you, but please tell us which one

Page 6647

1 it is.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you would have listened to not

3 only the first part of the answer but also the second one, it becomes

4 clear to you that the witness said, "Don't ask me because I don't

5 remember."

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The streets names have changed, and

7 I cannot remember. In Sarajevo, all the street names changed, and I

8 cannot find myself any more, I cannot orient myself.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I allowed

10 myself to ask this question it's because we know that the street names

11 changed, and the witness just confirmed this. But I was thinking that

12 maybe he could remember the old name of the street. It might be an

13 important element before your Chamber. Witness said do not ask me this

14 question, but you may ask me this question later because I may remember

15 it, and this was the doctor that was responsible for the Dobrinja clinic,

16 and this is the reason why I'm asking this question.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... the witness

18 whether he would know the old or the new name, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Please

19 proceed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Q. Witness, I understand that you do not remember any more the old

22 names. You don't know the new names, you don't remember the old names,

23 but if I give you a map, if I showed you a map, would you be able to

24 visualise on the map where the headquarters were located?

25 A. Is this really very important for you?

Page 6648

1 Q. Yes, it is. It is. It has an exceptional importance for you, for

2 us, and for everybody in this courtroom. I believe that it is, and I

3 believe that we are all in search of the truth. Would you be able to tell

4 us where the headquarters were situated, were located, please?

5 A. For Dobrinja II, across the street from the pharmacy and the post

6 office. That's all I can tell you. Whereas for the street name and for

7 the number, I can't tell you. My street used to be called Vahide Maglaic,

8 and now it's called Trg Djece Dobrinje, so believe me, there's no point.

9 Q. Thank you, Witness. I really sincerely thank you for this answer

10 because I know that, after being wounded, I know personally that it is not

11 easy to be objective.

12 Now, if I showed you a map, would you be able to show us the PTT

13 building and the streets where you lived?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

15 MR. STAMP: I would not want to interfere in the style of

16 questioning of my friend. He makes comments during the course of asking

17 questions which may or may not be proper, and I don't interfere or

18 interrupt just because of the comments. I just interrupt because this

19 particular comment is a reference to the objectivity of the witness, and

20 it is not a proper comment to be made at this stage of the case, if at

21 all. May it please you, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think it's improper to

23 thank the witness for the answer, and then adding that you know that after

24 being wounded, you personally know that it's not easy to be objective,

25 because it's a comment on the objectivity of the answer. We hear the

Page 6649

1 answers. The quality of the answers will be assessed by the Chamber later

2 on and is not needed at this moment during the examination of the witness

3 of any comment. Of course, during final argument, you may give whatever

4 comment you'd like on the quality of the answers of the witnesses, on the

5 objectivity or not, but no commenting during the examination of the

6 witness, please.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President. I

8 must admit --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- I shouldn't have made any

11 comments. This came spontaneously.

12 Q. Witness, if I were to show you a map, could you point out in

13 Dobrinja where the post office was that you mentioned?

14 A. Please, the President of the Court told me not to talk about other

15 things except about the match. I have come to testify about the match,

16 and not to tell you where the command was, who was in command and what

17 they did. I was a civilian, and if you're interested, you have a

18 commander, Sefer Halilovic, and ask him.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, please, there is a misunderstanding. I

20 indicated that the Prosecution called you mainly because of what you know

21 about the match. Therefore, I asked you to answer the questions put to

22 you by the counsel for the Prosecution and not to give all kind of perhaps

23 even important information but not asked for by counsel. Now we are in a

24 situation that counsel for the Defence asks you specific questions, and if

25 you have any doubt on whether you should answer these questions, ask me.

Page 6650

1 But please not start any debate with counsel for the Defence. And would

2 you please answer the question whether you would be able to indicate on a

3 map where the post office in Dobrinja was. Would you be able to do so?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I won't.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You're not able or you're not willing?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not willing.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, the rules in this Court are such that if

8 you are able to indicate on a map where the post office in Dobrinja was,

9 that you should do so. May I remind you of this obligation.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Show me the map. If I can I will.

11 And if I can't --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Show me the map.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, present a map to the witness.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have the usual map that we

16 usually produce. I don't know whether we have a clean one, Madam

17 Registrar, or whether you wish us to give the witness this one. We have a

18 sufficient number of copies, but it is the same map.

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... marked a copy,

20 yes. Yes.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As it will probably be marked,

22 Mr. President, it is better to give him a clean copy.


24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, can you hear me?

Page 6651

1 A. Yes, I can.

2 Q. Thank you. You have in front of you a map, and with the

3 assistance of the usher, it is on your right. Don't write anything on it

4 for the time being, please.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, could you perhaps first put the map on

6 the ELMO. The usher will assist you. And please listen carefully to

7 Defence counsel.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Q. Witness, you have this map. Do you recognise it, which is in

10 front of you?

11 A. No, I can't see. Well, if I could have it in front of me, please.

12 Q. Witness, I'll give you another copy which I have here, with the

13 assistance of the usher, please. We know this map more or less by heart,

14 but I would be grateful, Witness, if you would be kind enough not to write

15 anything on this map.

16 Did you hear me? Don't write anything, please. Put the pen down.

17 I'll tell you in a moment why. Put the pen down. Thank you very much.

18 Witness, do you recognise the map in front of you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Is it a map on which you can see the area known as

21 Dobrinja?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, still without writing anything, tell me, is

24 that a map on which you could recognise the position of the parking lot

25 where the incident occurred? Let me remind you that it was close to the

Page 6652

1 Lukavica road, which I think is marked on the map.

2 A. Next to the Lukavica Road.

3 Q. Fine.

4 A. About -- next to 349. That is where the parking lot is. No, 333.

5 33, something like that.

6 Q. Witness, is this a map on which, like me, you can see a sign

7 roughly in the middle of the map, the middle of Dobrinja, which

8 corresponds to the emblem of a post office in the form of an envelope? Do

9 you see that sign in the middle of the map, next to the numbers 348, I

10 think it is?

11 Witness, for technical reasons, will you please speak out your

12 answer. If it's no, say no; if it's yes, say yes. Did you say yes?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, I saw that you are nodding.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't speak aloud, nodding will not appear in

16 the transcript of this Court. So therefore, if you're nodding --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

19 Q. This sign that you have seen is the post office that you mentioned

20 a moment ago, or is it another post office?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So it is indeed the post office opposite which was the command

23 post?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness. Witness, could you please tell us if, close

Page 6653

1 to this post office, is the Dobrinja hospital?

2 A. Across the street.

3 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, I'm now going to ask you to

4 do the following: As you have localised these points, could you, on this

5 same map, indicate the places where the anti-atomic shelters were that you

6 mentioned a moment ago.

7 A. Next to number 401, and 406 would be the second one. Those are

8 two atomic shelters in Dobrinja IIIB. An under number 33 is the parking

9 lot where I was injured.

10 Q. Witness, thank you for that. I'm now going to ask you to do the

11 following: The usher, who is on your right, is going to give you a pen, a

12 marker, a black marker.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Mr. Usher, would you try to find

14 a --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please assist me. I

16 have no difficulties in finding 406, but could you guide me to 401.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to

18 assist everyone, what I would like to do is the following, and that is to

19 ask the witness, who has found these places, to put the map on the ELMO.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, do you hear me?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Thank you. Would you please turn to your right, if you can -- if

25 you have any difficulty, the usher will assist you in doing so -- and will

Page 6654

1 you look now at the same map but which is placed under the ELMO. Do you

2 recognise the same map, that it is the same map as the one you looked at a

3 moment ago?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Witness, with the pen, a black pen that will be given

6 to you, will you mark a circle around the post office. A small circle,

7 please.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Fine. Could you put number 1 next to that circle, please.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Fine. Witness, you said that across the road was the command post

12 of the 5th Brigade. Could you mark that with a second circle, please.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you. So will you put a number 2 next to this dot so that we

15 are able to find it later on.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Very well. Fine. Thank you.

18 Witness, would you please, also on this map, mark the position of

19 the Dobrinja hospital, which you said was across the way.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Witness, you've drawn a line. Would you please put 3 under this

22 line so that we are able to find these places.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

25 Witness, still on this map, if you could, of course, could you

Page 6655

1 please indicate the group of buildings where the atomic shelters were.

2 And if you could, you could just mark those places with crosses.

3 A. I'll mark the atomic shelters with crosses.

4 Q. Yes, quite.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. You've marked two crosses, and you mentioned several shelters a

7 moment ago during your testimony, Witness. Was the other shelter on

8 another territory?

9 A. Yes, there was one in Dobrinja IV, and I don't know in Dobrinja V,

10 there were garages and shelters.

11 Q. Could you mark those garages with a cross.

12 A. Up here, I think it was.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness. Make a cross again, please, following the

14 same logic.

15 A. This shelter is under Serb control -- it was under Serb control,

16 you see.

17 Q. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, Witness. Just put a

18 cross.

19 A. But I'm not so familiar with Dobrinja IV.

20 Q. We have taken note of that. Witness, still on this same map, in

21 response to some questions from the Prosecution, you mentioned the

22 existence of first lines. Could you, on this map, indicate where those

23 first lines were, perhaps with a dotted line so that we can see it on the

24 screen. Have you understood my question, please, Witness?

25 A. I have, and I can.

Page 6656

1 And on from there.

2 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. We're now going to leave the map to

3 the side. We'll come back to it, so you can put down your pen, but we

4 leave the map on the screen as we will certainly need it a little later,

5 if the President and the Chamber allows more questions about the map.

6 Anyway, thank you for the information you have given.

7 Along this same line of questioning, Witness, we come to the

8 concept of military police. Witness, do you know who was in charge of the

9 military police during the war, at the time of the war?

10 A. There were several of them. They changed, so I don't know them,

11 believe me.

12 Q. If I give you the name of Mr. Karem Mucarevic [phoen], is that a

13 name you know?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This person, Witness, was he, at a certain point in time, in

16 charge of the military police, as far as you know?

17 A. Yes, but he was replaced.

18 Q. Yes, indeed. Thank you.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The name is Lucarevic, "L"

20 like "Leon," for the benefit of the transcript.

21 Q. Witness, with respect to this military police, did you know

22 whether this police at a certain point occupied the hill that you pointed

23 out as being the Mojmilo hill?

24 A. No.

25 Q. When you say, "No," Witness, does that mean that you don't know or

Page 6657

1 that you know that they did not occupy the hill?

2 A. I do know, and the answer is no.

3 Q. As you know that they did not, do you know then where the

4 headquarters of the military police were situated?

5 A. No, I don't know.

6 Q. Witness, is it because you no longer know the name of the street,

7 or could you please indicate in relation to certain facilities like the

8 hospital, the post office, or some other prominent buildings? Or do you

9 simply don't know anything about it?

10 A. I really don't know, really, about the military police. About the

11 civilian police, yes; but the military, no.

12 Q. Very well. Tell us, then, please where the civilian police was,

13 if you can, on this map. If you need to write anything, do so to your

14 right, on the map to your right.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Mr. Usher, would you give a black

16 pen to the witness so that he could write it down. Thanks.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, will you please make a little circle.

18 Have you done that?

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. And add the number 4, I think it is.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Thank you. So you've written the number 4 next to this dot.

23 Witness, as we're on the map now, and to avoid tiring you, could

24 you, with a triangle this time, mark the parking area where this incident

25 unfortunately occurred.

Page 6658

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. You have marked a V. You have written a V, I think. I can't see

3 it too well. Could you please close this V and make it into a triangle.

4 I don't see that you've done that. Make it a triangle.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Thank you very much. That's perfect. Thank you very much,

7 Witness, for these indications.

8 I should now like to ask you another series of questions. We will

9 leave the map aside, and I thank the usher for his assistance. So we

10 leave it there. We may be coming back to it.

11 Witness, I'm referring to your professional training. We know

12 that you were a specialist for central heating. Is that correct?

13 A. I'm a highly-skilled worker for central heating, and I have 30

14 years of experience behind me.

15 Q. Thank you for your answer. Was it in this capacity that you

16 worked in the service known as the Civil Defence?

17 A. Yes. I apologise. May I say something?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. I was offered a weapon, but no, I said, I will never kill. I have

20 never killed. I refuse to pick up arms, and I reported to the Civil

21 Defence simply to do good work, peacetime work, of which I am proud. But

22 I would never carry a weapon and kill people. I had a chance to carry a

23 weapon, and I went for interrogation twice on that score.

24 Q. Thank you for your clear position. I can't comment on it, but I

25 wish you to know that I heard the message.

Page 6659

1 When we're talking about Civil Defence, would you please tell us,

2 what were the first and the second lines? A moment ago, you spoke about

3 the first defence line, and I will later come to another question about

4 the second defence line. Could you tell us, as far as you know, what was

5 the first front line?

6 A. I'm sorry, but I marked it for you with a dotted line on the map.

7 Look at the map.

8 Q. Very well.

9 A. That is the first defence line.

10 Q. Fine. So the first line is the line where elements of the army

11 were stationed in the strict sense of the word. Is that right?

12 A. Yes, on both sides. Dobrinja IV was the Serb side, and Dobrinja

13 IIIB on the Bosnian side. They were separated by a street eight metres

14 wide and two grassy areas six metres wide each.

15 Q. Thank you very much for that clarification.

16 Witness, if the first defence line is the line that is strictly

17 military, what was the second defence line?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness testified about the

19 first defence line. It is my recollection that he was talking about the

20 first line, but whether this was the first defence line or not -- or would

21 you please clarify this, but otherwise, please indicate where he talked

22 about the first defence line.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Certainly.

24 Q. Witness, a moment ago, you talked of first lines. Were you

25 talking about first defence lines?

Page 6660

1 A. Please, let us understand each other clearly. What I marked on

2 this map, on the one side and on the other side of the street is a row of

3 buildings, Indira Gandhi Street, and that's on the Serbian side. And

4 Partizanskih Olimpijada is on the other side, under numbers 1, 5, 7, 9 and

5 11 on the Bosnian side. In those buildings, there were no civilians at

6 all. Those buildings were only and solely under the army of the Bosnian

7 BH. Those buildings were completely pierced through. They were turned

8 towards Dobrinja IV, and the walls were completely filled with holes

9 whereas at the other side, on the Indira Gandhi side, those buildings were

10 turned towards Dobrinja III. This is where the nests --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, may I just ask you for a clarification.

12 If you're talking about the first line, do you refer to the line held by

13 the army of the BiH, and would then the second line be the line held by

14 the Serbian forces? Or would there be a second line after the first, also

15 held by the Bosnian -- the BiH forces? Would there be one line for each

16 party or would there be more lines on the BiH side?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe we didn't understand each

18 other perfectly well here. Regarding the BiH army, there was one first

19 line. With regards to the Serbian line, there was a first line, only one

20 line, and the only thing that separated the two was one street. So the

21 BiH army and the Serbian army, they each had only first lines and it's

22 along one road, one street. There were no second, third, 14th, 15th line.

23 Do you understand me?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I fully understand you. Thank you for your

25 clarification. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 6661

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

2 Thank you very much for your intervention, and I will just try to make

3 some precisions, if you allow me.

4 Q. Witness, when my learned friend from the Prosecution was putting

5 questions to you, you used the expression "first lines." Do you recall

6 this?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. When you talk of "first lines," Witness, do you mean

9 by this that there was a subdivision in the organisation of the defence in

10 general, according to which there would have been first lines, for

11 instance, of the BiH army, and then, behind, would there be a second

12 system within the defence lines? Do you know if anything like this

13 existed?

14 A. Yes, I am aware. And no, there was only one line, Partizanskih

15 Brigada, I am aware and know, and for the rest, it was the Civil Defence

16 that took care of all the fires and everything else.

17 Q. Very well. But when you talk about the Civil Defence, the same

18 Civil Defence, did they also organise a defence line in the larger sense

19 of the word?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you for your answer.

22 Witness, the Civil Defence, did they undergo in any way possible

23 -- were they under the control of an army?

24 A. Partly, yes, in some cases.

25 Q. Then can you please elaborate, since you know better than anybody

Page 6662

1 else, what the case was.

2 A. In case of injured people and in case of when the injured people

3 had to be carried away, whether it's civilians, women, children, and also

4 soldiers, of course, in case of fires, floods -- but we didn't have any

5 floods thank God -- because for four years we had no electricity and no

6 water. We had to dig wells. But the order would get to us from the

7 command post, and we would have to wake up either in the middle of the

8 night or during the day to evacuate the population. We had to give

9 assistance to everybody independently of whom it was. It was not

10 important who the person was, whether Serbian, Croatian, or a Muslim or

11 whatever the case may be. I cannot remember any more. I was not a

12 nationalist. I never was. I never will be. But if Hadzic gave me the

13 order to go from Buzdevic Ismet and if they told me to go at midnight to

14 go help somebody, either to carry the wounded or anything like that, I had

15 to go.

16 And frankly, I don't want to hide anything from you, you know,

17 that was the war, and it was the army that directed everything, that they

18 take control, and the general knows that very well. We had to obey. The

19 sanctions were like that; the rules, the laws had not changed. It was the

20 laws of Bosnia and Herzegovina, if you do not answer the mobilisation

21 call, you know what awaits you. So you know what happens to you. If you

22 don't want to go, you know you'll have to go to prison.

23 Q. Witness --

24 A. You could even get a bullet.

25 Q. Witness, are you telling me that civilians, such as yourself, had

Page 6663

1 to obey instructions and orders coming from the army, and you could even

2 get punished, and you could even get capital punishment, if I understand

3 correctly? Is that what you're telling us?

4 A. They were coming -- the commander of the Civil Defence and the

5 commander of the Civil Defence of Dobrinja, of Novi Grad, actually, he

6 knew -- he had his own orders. He had to carry out the orders, and I do

7 not have the order, I didn't bring it. I didn't bring all the orders, but

8 we had received, for instance, the orders to dig a well for the

9 civilians because the inhabitants were thirsty for two months. I dug a

10 tunnel of ten and a half metres. We had to put pumps in order to supply

11 water to the inhabitants, to the women and children. And there were three

12 pumps. Once we were digging and seven men died. Twenty and some men were

13 wounded during the digging of this well. Maybe you don't know this but

14 they were wounded because a shell fell.

15 Q. Witness, thank you for these very useful precisions and details,

16 but I would like to know something: When the army needed to get help in

17 terms of supply, would you bring your supplies to the army, material?

18 A. No. I will tell you very honestly to you and to all of you here,

19 Dobrinja was closed off from all sides. And in Butmir, UNPROFOR was in

20 Butmir. And the UNPROFOR did not allow us to go on the other side of the

21 pista with transporters. So this is why we received the order to dig a

22 10-metre deep -- 10-metre long tunnel, and the order from the Civil

23 Defence arrived, and that was from the Supreme Command.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

25 MR. STAMP: Just a clarification. I have it here in the

Page 6664

1 translation that the UNPROFOR did not allow us to go on the other side of

2 the pista, P-I-S-T-A.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understood. If I'm wrong, I understood the

4 pista to be the runway from the airport.

5 THE INTERPRETER: It's the airport runway, note of the

6 interpreter.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Yes, it was clear, in fact. Thank you for this answer, Witness.

11 I will now submit to you a document --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Allow me a few minutes to

13 consult my colleague, please.

14 [Defence counsel confer]

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, I see that you have your glasses on. Do you hear me?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Are you able, Witness, to read with these glasses? Are those

19 reading glasses? It is not an irrelevant question, but we've seen that

20 some witnesses were not able to read certain documents so this is why I'm

21 asking you. Witness, are you able to read with those glasses? Are those

22 reading glasses?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you for your answer. I would like to submit to

25 you a document, with the help of the usher.

Page 6665

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: And if the Chamber allows me, Mr. President,

2 with your leave, I would submit these documents to the witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Leave is granted.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And of course, we have already

5 distributed these documents to the booths, the interpretation booths,

6 therefore, they will help us in interpreting; and we've also given these

7 documents to the Prosecution.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

9 MR. STAMP: Yes, we received copies of these documents which are

10 in B/C/S.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have them.

12 MR. STAMP: And they are marked Exhibit D85. We have not received

13 translations of these documents in any of the languages of the Tribunal.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I was talking about a

16 document coming -- stemming from the Prosecution, 0205-6659. I thought

17 that they knew what this was about. Because if they didn't know what the

18 contents of these documents were, why did they communicate these documents

19 to us? I thought they already had the translation of these documents.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think that the Prosecution is

21 under an obligation to provide -- to give you access to certain documents.

22 Even if they're not translated, the obligation goes further than only

23 translated documents, but apart from that, whatever you tell us about what

24 you expect from the Prosecution, the Chamber has not produced these

25 documents and cannot read it without translation. So it's not just the

Page 6666

1 Prosecution but also the Chamber who would like to have access to the

2 contents of the document.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is the

4 reason why I asked the witness if he was able to read with his glasses,

5 because what we wish to do is to communicate, to show the copies of this

6 text to everybody, and then I wanted to ask the witness to read out loud

7 the passages that I was going to indicate to him and then I was going to

8 ask the interpreters to interpret these lines for the transcript.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, the context of the document, of

10 course, might get lost in this way. But I'd suggest that we first hear

11 what part you'll ask the witness to read.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Of course, Mr. President.

13 Thank you.

14 Q. Witness, do you have before you a document? Witness, I'm talking

15 to you. Witness, do you hear me?

16 A. Yes, yes, I do.

17 Q. Do you see --

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Do you have before you a document?

20 A. Yes, yes, I do, I do.

21 Q. In Serbian.

22 A. Yes, and in Bosnian, and in Montenegrin also. Yes, I do have the

23 document before me. Yes.

24 Q. Yes, thank you, Witness. I would like to ask you the following.

25 If you could tell us if on the left upper hand corner, do we see the

Page 6667

1 reference to the command of the 5th Motorised Brigade in Dobrinja? What

2 do you see?

3 A. Left, yes.

4 Q. Very well, thank you. Witness, under "Subject" or in Serbian,

5 "Predmet," do you see -- what do you read next to the "Subject,"

6 "Predmet," so that we know what the document is about?

7 A. Yes, I will. It is the regulation of the positions in the second

8 defence line.

9 Q. Very well. We see the word "Subject," and you have a full column.

10 And can you read us -- read to us what you see.

11 A. "Regulation of the positions in the second defence line."

12 Q. Very good. We are, therefore, talking about a second defence

13 line, line of defence. I would like you to -- ask you to read out loud

14 Item 1, and it is the number 1 that's under the word "Naredjujem" that's

15 right in the middle of the document. So could you please read us Item 1,

16 please.

17 A. You want me to read it. "According to the order given by the

18 Chief of Staff of the 1st Corps, under number 12642, up until today,

19 according to what we have established in order to carry out the work the

20 best possible way."

21 Q. Just a little further down.

22 A. This relates to the second and the third motorised brigade but it

23 has nothing to do with the 5th Motorised Brigade. You can read underneath

24 these commanders and all the other ones are not even in Dobrinja.

25 Q. Yes, I agree with you. I fully agree with you.

Page 6668

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic.

2 A. It has nothing to do with this.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, would you please, if you're able to read

4 the lines Defence counsel is asking you to read, would you please do so.

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you indicate precisely, do you want the

6 witness to read the whole first paragraph or just a few lines?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will tell him.

8 Q. Witness, if you hear me correctly, I would like to ask you to read

9 another passage under the one you just read. It starts with "one." The

10 first word of this passage is "izvrsiti." Do you see this paragraph?

11 A. Under 1, yes.

12 Q. Can you read this passage up until the word "battalion."

13 A. Yes. "To regulate the additional regulation of the positions with

14 the construction of installations with concrete profiles with a very light

15 cover; to carry out --" The second: "To carry out works in the second

16 line for the unit that is engaged, and this in order to carry out the

17 works only in order to employ the men from the battalion."

18 Q. All right. Now, I would like to ask you to read the point 2 (a),

19 (b), and the sentence that follows (b), or that is to say "za izvodenje"

20 and so on and so forth.

21 A. "Works on fortification to be carried out as follows: (a)

22 continue fortification of positions on the first line of defence. For the

23 regulation of the second line of defence, engage labour force according to

24 the following timetable: For the execution of works in the area of

25 responsibility of the 1st Motorised Brigade --" please note it's the 1st

Page 6669

1 not the 5th -- "engage 20 men with four pickaxes and six shovels divided

2 into two groups."

3 The 1st Motorised Brigade is quite a different brigade to the one

4 in Dobrinja. Please take note of that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, we should make a clear distinction from

6 what you read and your comment. If you are asked to read a few lines,

7 please do so, then pause, and if there's any reason to comment on what

8 you've read, then you might do it as part of your answer to a question.

9 But you'll understand that we would like to know exactly what is your

10 reading and what is your opinion given in relation to what you've read.

11 Yes. Please.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Witness, I'm not quite sure of the comments you made regarding the

15 brigade, so will you just continue the reading. Will you please now read

16 the sentence beginning with, "The second group..." "Druga grupa..." which

17 is to be found in the middle of the page.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you read that sentence, please, up to the third dash, third

20 paragraph. I will stop you when necessary.

21 A. "The second group, consisting of ten men with two pickaxes and

22 three shovels should report to Dzenanovic Midhat, Dzani, in the

23 headquarters of the third company in Jawaharlal Nehru Street on the 21st

24 of March, 1993, at 8.30 hours."

25 Q. Please continue.

Page 6670












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6671

1 A. "For the execution of works in the area of responsibility of the

2 2nd Motorised Brigade, 20 men should be engaged with six pickaxes and

3 eight shovels. The unit with the tools should report on the 21st of

4 March, 1993, at 8.45 hours to commander Handzic Muhamed in B. Mitrova

5 Street, number 1."

6 Q. I'm interrupting you. When you see the words, "MTB," just read

7 out "MTB." It could be a battalion and not necessarily a brigade. Every

8 time you see "MTB," just read it as it stands.

9 Please continue.

10 A. "For the execution of works in the area of responsibility of the

11 3rd MTB, 20 men should be engaged five pickaxes and eight shovels. The

12 unit with its tools should report on the 21st of March, 1993, at 8.30

13 hours to Simunovic Mirko in Marx and Engels, number 13, square C5."

14 Q. A little more, please.

15 A. "For the execution of works in the area of responsibility of the

16 4th MTB, 30 men should be engaged with eight pickaxes and ten shovels.

17 The unit, together with its tools, should report to Commander Softic Salko

18 on the 21st of March, 1993, at 8.30 hours in the battalion headquarters.

19 The labour force, together with tools, will be placed at the disposal of

20 Commander Salko Softic."

21 Q. Thank you, Witness. We see that these are instructions given by

22 the command of the 5th Motorised Brigade to people in charge of Civil

23 Defence to report at a certain time and at a certain place, to the

24 headquarters of the battalions. Do you know, Witness, where these

25 headquarters were of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th battalion of the 5th

Page 6672

1 Motorised Brigade?

2 A. I don't know. I just know of the 1st, of the 1st battalion. It

3 was in the shelter, in the atomic shelter on the square called the

4 "Children of Dobrinja." I know that. I don't know about the others. It

5 was a military secret, so I'm not familiar.

6 Q. Thank you for your answers, Witness. Would you agree with me in

7 saying that the Civil Defence lent a helping hand to the army for the

8 construction of military structures on what is known as the first line?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Very well. I take note of your answer. Witness, is it correct to

11 say that the document that you have just read refers to the second line of

12 defence?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, now that we see that there was a system of

15 double defence lines, the first and the second, and that for the second it

16 was the Civil Defence that took charge of it, can you remember now what

17 were those second defence lines?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

19 MR. STAMP: These questions are being prefaced with comments by my

20 friend. There was a comment earlier about us seeing that these are

21 instructions given to people in charge of the Civil Defence. Perhaps it

22 is because I don't have a translation where I don't know if that is

23 something which is established, but these are comments which are not part

24 of cross-examination.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when Mr. Stamp got up, I was

Page 6673

1 trying to find exactly in my transcript where - and I was just at the

2 point of asking you to assist me - where part of the translated text says

3 that this is -- these are instructions to those in charge of the civilian

4 defence. I might have missed it. But could you please guide me. You can

5 read it. That's one of the problems, that we have no translation at this

6 very moment. But from those parts read out loudly, could you please

7 indicate where in the translation it clearly indicates? I might have

8 missed it.

9 Perhaps you first indicate in the original -- yes.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that you have an

11 abbreviation, "CZ." Let me ask the witness --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you would please first indicate

13 now, I see a letter "CZ" in the first paragraph, third line, approximately

14 in the middle. Let me just see now what the witness has read is what

15 exactly was the translation. One moment, please.

16 Perhaps you could assist me, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, where exactly this

17 part is translated, where we find it in the transcript in the English

18 language.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will find it in a moment,

20 Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Is it at 60/11, where it starts "To regulate the

22 additional regulation..." I think it's at page 60, line 11, and in the

23 translation it doesn't say anything at all about Civil Defence. So

24 therefore, could you please indicate to the -- to me which words, since

25 you understand the language and since I assume that the witness has read

Page 6674

1 this first paragraph, where the Civil Defence is mentioned? Is that the

2 abbreviation "CZ"?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

4 abbreviation "CZ" stands for --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ask the interpreters. Could the

6 interpreters give a translation of what they would understand "CZ" means.

7 THE INTERPRETER: If the interpreters may be of assistance, the

8 witness was confused, and he read the paragraph above first, and that's

9 what caused some confusion for the interpreter. But CZ stands for Civil

10 Defence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Do the interpreters have the document in front of

12 them?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be able that you translate the second

15 sentence of paragraph 1, which starts with the characters "ZA," --


17 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a translation of that specific

18 sentence.

19 THE INTERPRETER: "For the execution of works along the second

20 line of defence, engage exclusively units of the Civil Defence, and for

21 works on the first line, engage exclusively personnel from the units of

22 the battalion."

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

24 I think now -- just assuming that the witness intended to read the

25 first paragraph, that at least we now know what the text in it is in

Page 6675

1 English.

2 MR. STAMP: Indeed.

3 JUDGE ORIE: So Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed. But I think we

4 are approximately at the point where we -- yes. Perhaps we first have a

5 break.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know whether Mr.

7 Stamp's objection is upheld. Does he still have an objection?

8 MR. STAMP: It was for clarification, and thanks to the Bench, it

9 has been clarified. The --


11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is a perfect moment for

12 the break, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... time, would you

14 need, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't dare make an estimate

16 because -- but Ms. Pilipovic tells me 15 minutes, and I will do my best to

17 respect that time limit.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think we would have gained a lot of time if we

19 would have had a translation. It is far more efficient. But let's have a

20 break until 1.00 and save three more minutes.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

25 will wait for the witness to put his headphones on.

Page 6676

1 Q. Witness, can you hear me?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you for being here again.

4 I would like to clarify one point. You have answered, and nobody

5 contradicted you in this courtroom, in answer to a question put to you by

6 the Prosecution, you said that there was an incident which involved eight

7 dead people, and at one point 16 people died. For the first quote, it was

8 3/19, and the second one was 5/07, line and pages. Would you please

9 clarify, because clarity is our goal, how many people died, according to

10 you, in this incident?

11 Maybe you didn't understand me quite clearly. You have a

12 transcript before you. This transcript took down your words. Once you

13 talked about eight people dead, and the other time you talked about 16

14 people who were killed. I would like to know how many people died,

15 according to you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, wouldn't it be better to ask first

17 whether the witness did speak about one or two different occasions.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe that he talked about

19 one same incident.

20 Q. But how many incidents did you talk to?

21 A. I do understand. And I did understand.

22 Q. So you do understand?

23 A. Yes. I was talking about one incident, and it was the incident

24 that took place during the football match when the first shell landed.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 6677

1 A. It was at the football match.

2 Q. Well, I understood you clearly, then. We are talking about one

3 incident, but the transcript at one point mentions that eight people were

4 killed and on another occasion that 16 people had been killed or died.

5 Since this is not the same figure, I would like to ask you, according to

6 you, how many people died in this incident?

7 A. Yes. I said when the shell landed, and after I opened my eyes,

8 because I closed my eyes at first, then I opened my eyes, and I saw eight

9 men on the asphalt. They were no longer moving. They had died on the

10 spot, whereas for the others, there were young men, running towards their

11 homes. They went to the hospital so their wounds could be dressed. Some

12 people fell. Alija Gojak was hit here. He just fell two or three seconds

13 after. He left the parking lot but then he fell down to the ground and he

14 died right there. So eight people were in front of me and they were

15 already dead. With regards to the number of people who died pursuant to

16 this incident, was 16 people altogether. Some people died at the

17 hospital, some people died on the spot, so do you understand me now?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 A. So on the spot, at the very same moment people were dismembered.

20 There were eight men dismembered, Dragan, Damir Trebo, Marko, and the

21 others. Whereas for the others, they tried to run across the lawn to go

22 home, or to go to the hospital. And they would just run and fall down,

23 and some were losing blood, and I thought also that I would die right

24 there and then --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, you perfectly clarified the issue. You

Page 6678

1 explained what the numbers were.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Witness, I will come back to this question later; however, I would

5 like to move on to something else. Earlier we talk about the military

6 police and the army. Do you know if at the time of the event or the

7 events, I'm talking about the summer of 1993, were there oppositions

8 between -- important oppositions between the various factions within the

9 area that we sometimes call the "Muslim area" within Sarajevo, inside

10 Sarajevo? Were there dissenting factions, for instance, between the

11 military police, between the army, and between eventually some

12 paramilitary formations?

13 A. I do not understand your question.

14 Q. My question was probably too long. I will reiterate my question.

15 Sir, to your knowledge, were there any opposing opinions that could have

16 happened during the summer of 1993 from, on the one hand, the army in

17 Dobrinja, the 5th Brigade, and on the other hand, the military police for

18 which you said that you knew their commander?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. So you don't know. Very well, thank you, Witness.

21 I will now go back to the second line.

22 A. I really don't know.

23 Q. Thank you, thank you. Now let us talk about this second line. We

24 saw before the break that there was also a second defence line on which or

25 for which the Civil Defence cooperated. What do you know, as a specialist

Page 6679

1 in the Civil Defence matters, what can you tell us about the second

2 defence line?

3 A. I do know matters related to Civil Defence, but everything that is

4 written here coming from the 5th Motorised Brigade, and it is directed

5 towards the commanders to the Civil Defence, all these orders were also

6 probably directed towards the commanders of various battalions and I don't

7 know who else. I don't know this precisely. I was completely on the

8 other side. I had nothing to do with what you're asking me. This is

9 Vojnicko Polje, Dobrinja V, Nedzarici, C4 as well, whereas I was in

10 another -- I was in IIIB, that side of Dobrinja, in that quadrant, and I

11 was within the civilian defence of Dobrinja IIIB.

12 Q. Thank you for this answer. Thank you. Witness, I believe that

13 you were told to take a weapon since you told us that on two occasions you

14 refused to be drafted, to carry a weapon. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you for your answer.

17 A. May I just add something, please? May I, Mr. President?

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. Piletta-Zanin will put some additional

19 questions to it, so just wait what Mr. Piletta-Zanin would like to ask you

20 about it. Yes.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Yes, Witness. You said that you refused to carry weapons on two

23 occasions, or to participate in military activities. How old were you

24 when you were asked to carry a weapon, to be drafted?

25 A. I was approximately 46 years old, because I was born on the 7th of

Page 6680

1 March.

2 Q. What was the sanction that you could get if you did not -- if you

3 refused to carry a weapon?

4 A. The law that was at the time, the JNA laws that existed in the

5 former Yugoslavia, those laws were also in Bosnia and Herzegovina, because

6 new laws were not promulgated and Bosnia and Herzegovina abided by those

7 rules and by the laws of the army. So if you were mobilised, if you were

8 drafted --

9 Q. Yes, but what were the sanctions?

10 A. I do not know the law. Maybe you go to jail for a month or two.

11 I don't know.

12 Q. Thank you, Witness. Let us now go back to more technical

13 questions. If you know, say yes; if you don't know, say no, and we will

14 thank you for this if you can be brief.

15 Do you know if the 5th Brigade had a mortar battalion within

16 itself which was actually called the 2nd battalion?

17 A. Perhaps towards the end of 1994, in 1994, 1995.

18 Q. At the time of the events, was there a battalion, a mortar

19 battalion formed within the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20 A. In Dobrinja, no.

21 Q. So in Dobrinja --

22 A. In Dobrinja, no.

23 Q. Very well.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

25 submit to the witness Document D25. It is also -- it had been submitted

Page 6681

1 at the time. I have a copy. I don't know if I should give you our copy.

2 I don't know if you wish to use --

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to say that this

5 document has two pages of a translation, sort of a free translation, draft

6 translation, but we would like to show the witness this document.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have an additional copy for the Bench

8 to... Of course we can --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not believe that I have

10 one, but I will hand you my copy. I do know this document very well. I

11 shall ask the question from memory, and I would like to get the document

12 back. Thank you very much.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters also get a copy of the

14 document.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, take the document in the Serbian language that you have

17 before you, please. Are you holding this document, Witness, in the

18 Serbian language?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Would you please go to page number 2.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

22 MR. STAMP: May I just be furnished with a copy of that document.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters also have one.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just said that I only have

25 one copy. I may leave and get photocopies, if you will.

Page 6682

1 JUDGE ORIE: Just as the Prosecution indicates, prior to the

2 examination of a witness, what documents they will use, couldn't perhaps

3 at least not later than at the beginning of the cross-examination, the

4 Defence indicate to the Prosecution what they should be prepared for as

5 far as documents are concerned, because it's a bit inefficient this way.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly. I agree with

7 you, Mr. President. We have discovered this question, this question arose

8 not long ago, while I was consulting Ms. Pilipovic, and you know that,

9 unfortunately, it is very difficult to go and get documents in this

10 building --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Of course I do understand that you did your utmost

12 best. If it has been before the break, if you said I only intended that

13 this would be a useful document after the break, even during the break,

14 you could say, please be prepared for D25, so that in one or two minutes

15 the Prosecution can retrieve D25. I think that would be better than to

16 give long explanations on how difficult it is.

17 Please proceed, Mr. -- Of course, Mr. Stamp, what are we going to

18 do now?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If you allow me, I will go

20 outside and make photocopies. It will not take very long. It will last

21 three minutes, and I will distribute this document or be introduit [as

22 interpreted].

23 JUDGE ORIE: Of course I would have preferred this to be done

24 during the break and not to interrupt the examination of the witness for

25 this reason.

Page 6683

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But Ms. Pilipovic can go and

3 make the photocopies. But she will need your document, Mr. President.


5 If you have any other questions to the witness, perhaps put them

6 first and then we'll come back to D25. Yes, please.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I shall do so.

8 Q. Witness, I would like us now to go back to the football match,

9 this event you're talking to us about. Could you please set the document

10 aside, please.

11 Can you hear me? Very well. Thank you.

12 Regarding this football match, Witness, we understood that there

13 were some military targets on one side of the parking lot, but I'm not

14 sure if I understand correctly the distance that existed between the

15 military lines and the end of the football pitch. Could you tell us what

16 the distance was?

17 MR. STAMP: I have it here that my friend is saying that "We

18 understood that there were some military targets on one side of the

19 parking lot." This is a comment, and again I'm not sure my friend should

20 be allowed to make comments at this stage of the case. However, I'm not

21 sure also that this comment is warranted by the evidence. I cannot say

22 "We understand or understood" that there were some military targets on

23 one side of the parking lot.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would say that is an interpretation of the

25 words of the witness. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please indicate what

Page 6684

1 exactly you're referring to. It's not my recollection, but I might be

2 mistaken that the witness --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly. 30/23, Mr.

4 President. I'm referring to 30/23 on my computer, but my computer is

5 letting me down. But anyway, it is line 30/23 when the witness was

6 talking about the first lines. In my handwritten notes, I see 30/23.

7 JUDGE ORIE: On 30/23, I read that the witness said: "As far as

8 the first lines and the soldiers on duty in the first lines are

9 concerned..." I'm just trying to find where we exactly have the part of

10 your question.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're talking about my

12 question, Mr. President?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What you said is that --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was talking about military

15 targets, because the witness himself spoke about the first lines and the

16 soldiers who were on duty on those first lines. He said nothing more than

17 that, but he did mention that. For the Defence, the first lines are a

18 military target, and soldiers on duty are equally military targets. And

19 that is why I wanted to shorten things --

20 MR. STAMP: Just for clarification, the objection is to the

21 comment made prefacing the question where my friend said, "We --" and I

22 don't know who he is referring to when he says, "we," but he said, "We

23 understood that there are military targets on one side of the parking

24 lot." Not line, he was speaking about parking lot, and he was speaking

25 about something that "we," whoever that is, understood.

Page 6685

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you'd like to refer to an

2 earlier answer of the witness, would you please do it by referring to his

3 words. So if you say, "You told that the first lines were..." and then I

4 wonder what would then come, were they at one side of the parking lot or

5 were they outside the parking lot at one side and at what distance? But

6 if you refer to an earlier answer, you should do it as precise as

7 possible. So rephrase your question.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when I say

9 "we," it is out of politeness. In France, I think we all understand

10 that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not mainly referring to -- we understand that --

12 I do understand what you mean by that, perhaps that's part of the

13 French eloquency, but my major point was that you're referring -- the

14 witness spoke about first lines, and you're talking about military

15 targets. That is not the same, although you might interpret first lines

16 to be military targets. But that's not what the witness said. If you

17 refer to what the witness said, you do it in the words he used. Please

18 proceed.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Quite. So I use the term

20 "military targets" implying first line and soldiers on duty. For the

21 Defence, these are military targets. But let me put my question to the

22 witness.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... is to explain why

24 your conclusions were right. I want you to refrain from any further

25 comment. If I say, "Please rephrase your question," you may rephrase the

Page 6686

1 question. You may not explain to us why you were perfectly right to put

2 the question in the way you did it. So would you please, I repeat it,

3 rephrase your question.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, did you speak about the first lines, please? Yes or no.

6 A. For heaven's sake, I told you. I marked them on the map, and

7 there were no other lines behind them.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, it's perfectly clear you confirmed three

9 times that you used the word "first lines." So the question has already

10 been answered. Would you please put your next question to the witness.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, these defence lines, Witness, at what distance were they

13 from the far end of this parking lot, roughly, approximately?

14 A. Please, can you add up. You add up, and then you can work it out

15 what the distance is from the parking lot to the army that held the lines.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, Mr. Fazlic, Mr. Fazlic, the question was

17 whether you could tell us how far the first lines you spoke about were

18 away from the end of the parking lot, what was the distance,

19 approximately. If you say --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be given a little time,

21 please?


23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 210, 215 metres.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Thank you for your answer, sir. I should now like you to look at

Page 6687

1 the document that you have in front of you. Will you please take the

2 Serbian version, the one written in the Serbian language. I think that

3 everyone has copies of the draft translation and the original text.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Unfortunately, the interpreters do not have the

5 translation.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, could you please look at the second page of that

8 document. Will you please look at the second page.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you do it slowly because the interpreters have

10 not yet received the translation, so we have some difficulty. But please

11 proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, will you look at the second page. That's it. You have

14 it. That's fine.

15 Witness, will you please read -- please read -- sorry -- point F

16 of page 2 of this document.

17 A. F, you said. Under 1, paragraph F: "Casualties in personnel

18 and materiel are unknown to us."

19 Q. Which document are you looking at, sir?

20 A. The first document. The first page.

21 Q. Do you have a second page, Witness, please? Beginning with the

22 paragraph F. F. Do you have it, the second page?

23 JUDGE ORIE: It's the first line of the second page.

24 A. "The wounded." Is that what you mean?

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

Page 6688

1 Q. Read it, please. Read this paragraph, please.

2 A. "The combatants of two MTB mortar company of 120/82 millimeters,

3 Jamakovic Rasid and Jasar Jasminko are wounded. Six combatants are killed

4 and 55 are wounded as a result of two mortar shells of 82 millimetres

5 which fell on a parking lot where a football match was held and where

6 there was a number of spectators. At this event, five civilians were

7 killed and 32 persons wounded. These data --"

8 Q. You can stop there, please. Witness, would you agree with me --

9 A. No, this is a mistake.

10 Q. Just wait a minute, please. Wait a minute. Just a moment,

11 please. Please. Wait for me to phrase my question, and then answer it.

12 Witness, would you agree with me in saying that, according to this

13 document, there were soldiers who were wounded and who belonged to a

14 mortar company of 120 82-millimetre?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Why, Witness, do you not agree with that?

17 A. Because those men were not playing the match. They were passing

18 by. They were spectators, and they were wounded outside the pitch, on the

19 parking lot. No, on the road or somewhere else, anywhere else, those two

20 men, you see. 16 people were killed and 82 were wounded. So this report

21 is not correct, and I don't agree with it. You can check out the names.

22 They can be found in the Centar, or rather, Novi Grad municipality, and

23 you will see who was wounded.

24 Q. Witness, I'm interrupting you. This document, will you read who

25 signed it, please. Can you read it.

Page 6689

1 A. Anyone could have signed it. I don't care.

2 Q. Since you're saying that anyone could sign it, will you please

3 read out the name that it says here.

4 A. Yes, I can. Ismet Hadzic. All I know is --

5 Q. What is the word that you read above the name Ismet Hadzic?

6 A. "Commander."

7 Q. What is the stamp that you see under the signature of Ismet

8 Hadzic?

9 A. "Motorised Brigade."

10 Q. And the number before the word "Motorised Brigade"?

11 A. I suppose it's number 5, 5th.

12 Q. Yes, indeed, it is the stamp of the 5th Motorised Brigade. So

13 Witness, do you know whether 55 soldiers were wounded in this attack?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a moment. May I confer

15 with my colleague for a moment.

16 [Defence counsel confer]

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, do you know as when Territorial Defence was set up in

19 Dobrinja and the area known as the airport?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. If I tell you the 6th of May, 1992, does that appear to be

22 acceptable?

23 A. I have no idea.

24 Q. Do you know, Witness, when the 1st battalion of Dobrinja was

25 formed, in May 1992?

Page 6690

1 A. I don't know. These were secrets that we didn't know.

2 Q. Very well. Do you know whether on the 6th of July, 1992, that the

3 1st Dobrinja Brigade was formed, which later became the 5th Motorised

4 Brigade?

5 A. Whether those dates are correct, I don't know. I have no idea. I

6 don't know when which brigade was formed. All I know is that on the 23rd

7 of June, I was called to the shelter to be mobilised. On the 23rd of

8 June, 1992, I was called to the shelter for mobilisation. And when what

9 was established, founded, drafted, I don't know. I'm an ordinary citizen

10 who had no access to such information so don't ask me about them.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,

12 Mr. President. Thank you, Witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the witness?

15 MR. STAMP: There is no need to re-examine the witness, Mr.

16 President. But if I may ask your permission to ask the interpreters'

17 booth to have a look at the document which the witness was just presented

18 with and to interpret it for us, for the record. Because I think when he

19 spoke, he was going very quickly with the reading of a particular passage.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a particular passage in mind?

21 MR. STAMP: On the B/C/S version, it would be the sentence at

22 2(e), and the sentence at 2(f).

23 JUDGE ORIE: 2(e) and 2(f). First of all, what document are you

24 talking about?

25 MR. STAMP: That is the document D25, which was last --

Page 6691

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I was confused. I thought you were talking

2 about D85. D25, we have an English translation of D25.

3 MR. STAMP: I beg your pardon, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: D25, we were provided with a translation in English.

5 MR. STAMP: Yes. And in respect to what I heard when 2(f) was

6 read and translated, there is a small area which seems to be missing from

7 the translation which was read onto the record.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You'd say that it's not on the record now; it's on

9 paper but not on the record. Could you please indicate, then, which part

10 it was. Would the parties agree that the translation of this document is

11 to start with a reliable translation? And could you please tell us which

12 part is missing? Because...

13 MR. STAMP: The translation of what the witness was asked to read

14 at 2(f) seems to have --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you indicate on what line, what page.

16 MR. STAMP: In the B/C/S version --

17 JUDGE ORIE: I mean in the transcript. 78. Yes. Yes, I see that

18 on 78 line 23, the witness starts reading. The last part seems not to

19 have been --

20 MR. STAMP: "These data..." and there are some lines --

21 JUDGE ORIE: You mean if the witness has read 2(f), then it reads,

22 at least in the translation, "These data are unofficial," and I think as a

23 matter of fact Mr. Piletta-Zanin then interrupted the witness and said

24 that he didn't have to read any further, where it reads on paper, "These

25 data are unofficial. All detailed information regarding these events will

Page 6692

1 be submitted by a security officer." Is that the part you --

2 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Can we just -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that is I indeed did stop

5 the witness there, but we could have lost a lot of time. But there's no

6 problem. We can have the witness read the whole --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Would the parties agree that the last line of 2(f)

8 read by the witness was -- are the words I just pronounced? If so,

9 then --

10 MR. STAMP: It is agreed, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You agree as well, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that is absolutely

13 correct, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Does that solve the problem, Mr. Stamp?

15 MR. STAMP: Indeed.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions?

17 MR. STAMP: No further questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are there any further questions from my

19 colleagues?

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes, I have a question for Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Is it prior to additional questions?

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No, no, no, it's just a clarification on the

23 translation. My question is, Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Interpretation] You

24 used, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you used the word "free translation." What is

25 that?

Page 6693

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Excuse me. The expression

3 "free translation" usually means a translation that was not done by a

4 sworn translator, not by someone like those here who have taken an oath.

5 Therefore, this free translation doesn't have the same sacred quality as

6 would have a translation by a sworn translator.

7 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: [Previous translation continues]...

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions

9 for you.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Questioned by the Court:

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I would like you to tell me,

13 please, you said during your testimony that before and after the date of

14 the incident on the 1st of June, there was shelling. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And each time that there was

17 shelling, was there just one or several shells that were fired in a line,

18 one after another, consecutively?

19 A. There were three or four one after another, and then they would

20 switch to another side, and after, there would be an infantry attack by

21 the infantry, the troops, the soldiers. So first there would be shelling,

22 exclusively with mortars from Dobrinja IV, the Trappara [phoen] houses,

23 the barracks, this would last about half an hour, and after a half hour of

24 shelling --

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. But if you

Page 6694

1 remember, how much time would go by between the impact of one shell and

2 the next one?

3 A. It would be 10 to 15 metres [as interpreted] between shells that

4 would fall in a series of three, four, or five. And these would fall in

5 the parking lot. Yes, in the parking lot, others on the grassy surface,

6 but those that fell on the parking lot were more dangerous than those on

7 the grass.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, I see, but the condition of

9 the parking, was it suitable to be used as a football pitch in view of all

10 the impacts of mortar shells on it?

11 A. No. As we were closed on all sides, we turned that parking lot

12 into a rubbish dump. We would bring rubbish there and burn it during the

13 night.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but the holes provoked by

15 the shelling, didn't this bother the players? Could you still play

16 football on such a pitch?

17 A. No, no. No, never. Never again.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Fazlic. I've also a question for you. You

20 told us that you refused to carry any arms when you were asked to do so.

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Would you tell me, who asked you to carry arms?

23 A. Let me tell you: The command and the Presidency proclaimed a

24 mobilisation, a state of war. And according to the law enforced at the

25 time, all able-bodied men fit for the army had to report to their military

Page 6695

1 assignment, to their units to which they were assigned. I did not have an

2 assignment because I had been in the reserve in the police force as a

3 reserve traffic policeman for many years. I had performed my duties. I

4 took off my uniform. However, up to the age of 65, you were obliged to

5 report to the command, and I reported to the command exactly on the 23rd

6 of June, 1992.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And then you told them that you would not carry any

8 arms?

9 A. Yes. I told them to their face. I never killed anyone; I won't

10 kill anyone now, and I refuse to take up a weapon. I'll do anything, I'll

11 do whatever is necessary; I'll dig trenches. But for me to shoot at

12 a child carried by his mother, a child of 5 or 6, I would never do that.

13 And I'm telling you all, quite frankly, I'm that kind of a person.

14 JUDGE ORIE: This was your answer to a general order to come and

15 join the Defence Forces, at least, the armed forces, yes. Thank you very

16 much for your answer.

17 Mr. Fazlic, you've answered all our questions by now. That means

18 that this concludes your testimony in this Court. I have been aware that

19 you would have told us for many more hours on all your experiences, but in

20 this Court, the rules are that you have to answer the questions put to you

21 by the parties and by the Judges. And I thank you very much for having

22 answered these questions. I know it's quite a journey to come to The

23 Hague --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something, Your Honour,

25 please?

Page 6696

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may say something but it depends on what

2 whether I'll allow you to --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I won't insult anyone.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Of course not. I don't expect you to do so.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, I'm a man who worked for 30

6 years honestly. I had everything. I was wounded, and I'm 70 per cent

7 disabled. My wife was wounded 100 per cent, and my son 100 per cent.

8 Three, three of us. And I'm in a wheelchair. Up to you to judge.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, we noticed that you and your family are

10 bearing consequences of the events at that time, and I think this Bench is

11 fully aware.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to blame. I'm not guilty. I

13 didn't ask for the war. I didn't ask for the war. I didn't conduct the

14 war. I didn't want it, nor did my family. I did an honest man's work,

15 and I reached a point when I can't move around. Now why? Why? I'm not

16 insulting anyone, because on the other side, there were similar incidents.

17 I do apologise for saying this.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlic, you expressed to us that as an honest

19 man, you nevertheless became a victim of a war.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have all the documents, if you

21 need them.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We don't need your documents, but don't think that

23 this Court is not aware of what wars can create --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you all, and I had a lot of

25 trouble to come here. Sarajevo, The Hague, you can imagine the

Page 6697

1 transportation and everything, how hard it was for me, being an invalid.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Especially in your circumstances, I thank you once

3 again very much for coming, and I wish you a safe trip home again. Thank

4 you very much.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. Thank you for

6 working so well to punish those who are to blame. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Fazlic out of

8 the courtroom.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then deal with the documents tendered in

11 evidence. Madam Registrar, could you please guide us.

12 Madam Registrar asked me what to do when we came to D85. I said

13 to stop for a moment and we'll see what we're going to do

14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3678A, 360-degree Quicktime movie.

15 Exhibit P3281B, video. Exhibit P1197, letter of discharge in B/C/S.

16 P1197.1, English translation. D84, map marked by witness. And then we

17 have D85.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me first give a decision -- yes,

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, just to

21 help matters, if somebody asked us here, we would gladly furnish once

22 again a rough translation of this document, if it may help the

23 Prosecution. This is, of course, in view of the search of truth, and we

24 would do it gladly.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

Page 6698

1 MR. STAMP: The problem is that if various parts of this document

2 are to be used by the Defence and if it is to be taken in context, we need

3 a proper translation. We understand the difficulty with the huge amounts

4 of documents in B/C/S, but the official languages of the Court are French

5 and English.


7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, I would

8 gladly do so. I must say that one of the reasons for which it was not

9 possible to do so, it is because, as I already said, we studied, up until

10 late last night, documents that were supposed to be given to us by the

11 Prosecution, or submitted by the Prosecution but which were, in extremis,

12 withdrawn from our sight and from you. And unfortunately, the time cannot

13 be invented. We can always find time but it is not invented. So we shall

14 do these translations.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The document which is tendered as D85 has been

16 disclosed by the Prosecution to the Defence, and no one can require,

17 especially not if a reciprocal disclosure obligation exists, no one can

18 require the Prosecution to give an English translation of documents

19 disclosed under this obligation. So that's the first step. It has been

20 provided to the Defence in the original language. If the Defence wants to

21 tender a document in B/C/S in evidence, they should provide a translation.

22 They have objected, and we have taken these objections very seriously,

23 that the Prosecution sometimes has used translations which were not beyond

24 any doubt as far as their position was concerned, and we ordered that a

25 proper translation should be made.

Page 6699

1 Similarly, the Defence will have to provide a translation of the

2 document before we will admit the document in evidence. And if on the

3 basis of the context of this document, the Prosecution would see a

4 necessity to recall the witness, of course then opportunity will be given

5 to the Prosecution to do so. So therefore, D85 will not at this moment be

6 admitted into evidence, but as we have had at earlier occasions a

7 procedure where we would postpone a final decision on the admission in

8 evidence until a translation had been provided, a similar thing will be

9 done in relation to this document.

10 Mr. Stamp.

11 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. Just to make it clear, we

12 have no objection to the document being received in evidence.


14 MR. STAMP: I think all that is required is to get an official

15 translation of the document. It is not a difficult thing, and we would

16 not object.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We took a similar decision that we would not

18 admit into evidence documents where there was no proper translation, so

19 we'll do exactly the same for the Defence. So even if you would not

20 object, this Court, if we would admit it in evidence and if there's no

21 translation ever given to us, then it is admitted into evidence and we

22 would have to reverse our decision upon the translation not being provided

23 in due time. So I would do exactly the same as we did to the Prosecution.

24 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I just

Page 6700

1 wanted to let you know that tomorrow this Chamber will receive the draft

2 translation. This is the first point.

3 Second point, we still do not know --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let me say, we want a translation;

5 we do not want a draft and then a final version. We want a translation

6 and we will then finally decide on the admission into evidence.

7 I don't know how far the Defence can rely on any translation

8 services provided by the Registry. I'm not fully aware if at all within

9 your budget that you could provide us with a proper translation, but we'll

10 have one translation. If it's there, it can be checked by the

11 Prosecution.

12 MR. STAMP: My understanding is insofar as documents intended to

13 be put before the Court, they are equally entitled to engage the services

14 of the Registry.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That was what my impression was as well. So I see

16 Ms. Pilipovic nodding no. Let's give it a test. Let's see whether this

17 document can be translated. The Chamber insists on having a proper

18 translation. So let's give it a try and see what happens and report to

19 the Chamber if your request will be refused.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We shall see, gladly,

21 Mr. President. And thank you for this.

22 Next point before we do not raise an objection on a document, I

23 would like to ask Mr. Stamp if he could tell us from where was the

24 360-degree photo was taken. I don't know if Mr. Stamp was following, I

25 don't think so. There are many crosses on the ground. I would like to

Page 6701

1 know, Mr. Stamp, where was this picture taken from, because we will study

2 the testimony of this witness at a later stage, and it was very important

3 for us to know.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think the testimony has been given by the witness,

5 and I can imagine that in order to avoid unnecessary calling other

6 witnesses, especially the investigators, that perhaps the parties could

7 communicate on this issue. And if there is a problem remaining, then of

8 course we would like to be informed. It might necessitate the -- because

9 usually we have the yellow paint cross, spray paint --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but Mr. President,

11 precisely, that's the point. This could be one of the objections

12 regarding this document. We did not really follow from where was this

13 picture taken, and this is why maybe I was lost. Maybe Mr. Stamp can

14 clarify the point. I will accept his explanation if he may do so.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so I do understand that apart from your general

16 objection against 360-degree photographs, you have a specific objection in

17 regard of this photograph because it is not clear from I would say the

18 video or from whatever document, from what position exactly the 360-degree

19 photograph has been taken. And you are willing to reconsider this

20 objection if you are informed by Mr. Stamp about this question.

21 I don't know whether Mr. Stamp could answer immediately or that he

22 would need some time to find out.

23 MR. STAMP: If the question is from where the 360-degree

24 photograph was taken, it is from the football pitch -- the parking lot.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think that's -- usually we have it precise, on

Page 6702












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6703

1 the centimetre more or less, that it has been explained to us that if a

2 witness indicates a place where he was, that a yellow cross will be spray

3 painted and from exactly that spot the 360-degrees photograph. As you may

4 understand, a football pitch is -- well, we know exactly how wide it is or

5 long it is by now, at least what the witness told us. So that gives a

6 variety of places where the centre of the 360-degrees photograph could be,

7 and I think that's the problem of Mr. Piletta-Zanin. You could do it at

8 every corner of the football pitch.

9 MR. STAMP: Indeed. For the purposes of the -- of that bit of

10 evidence for this shelling incident, I would submit respectfully that it

11 is sufficient in depicting the area of the -- the area within which this

12 incident occurred. If my friend requires to know to precision where

13 exactly on the football pitch this 360-degree photo was taken, I could

14 answer later but my information is that we have called a witness, and we

15 will recall that witness, to explain how these photographs were taken and

16 exactly where they were taken from. I think for the purposes of

17 admissibility, which is the question here, the fact that the witness could

18 identify the photograph and identify what was in the photograph would be

19 sufficient for it to be received into evidence.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are in a situation where there is an

21 objection. We could either decide on the objection right away - we'll not

22 do it then now, but do it by tomorrow morning - but there is an offer of

23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin that he would reconsider his objection if he would

24 receive the information he seeks. If the objection would be withdrawn, we

25 don't have to take a decision. That's our situation.

Page 6704

1 MR. STAMP: Very well.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see what we do tomorrow morning first. If you

3 have been communicating with the Defence, and if they indicate to us

4 tomorrow morning that the objection doesn't stand any more --

5 MR. STAMP: Maybe I am misunderstanding what is the precise issue

6 here. Does Mr. Piletta-Zanin want to know precisely from where the

7 360-degree photograph was taken?

8 JUDGE ORIE: I think that he would like to know if it was from the

9 centre of the pitch or from one of the goals, or from one of the corner

10 flags. That's at least, how I understand it.

11 MR. STAMP: That information will be transmitted to him in due

12 course for tomorrow morning.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then we'll hear tomorrow morning whether the

14 objection still stands or not, and then, finally, we'll give a decision on

15 the 360-degrees photograph. All the other evidence tendered is admitted,

16 apart, then, from D85.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: And I do understand that the document used today,

19 D25, was already admitted into evidence at an earlier stage of this

20 trial.

21 So D85, we wait until we have the translation. D25, we wait until

22 tomorrow morning and hear from the parties.

23 I apologise for all those assisting us that it took us until after

24 2.00, and I see that Mr. Stamp would even continue.

25 MR. STAMP: I just rise to indicate to the Court that insofar as

Page 6705

1 D25 was admitted in evidence along with a draft translation, I shall

2 attempt to assist the Court by providing, as soon as possible, an official

3 translation in respect to D25, if it please the Court.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that all the parties are trying to get

5 the best possible translations.

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, half a minute.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We were talking about D85, I

8 believe. But not D25 already admitted. It's just for the clarification

9 of things.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. Stamp offered that, apart from the

11 unsworn translation, that he would seek to provide a sworn translation as

12 soon as possible as well. Is my understanding right, Mr. Stamp?

13 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll really adjourn until tomorrow morning,

15 9.00, same courtroom.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

17 2.08 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

18 the 5th day of April, 2002,

19 at 9.00 a.m.