1 Friday, 5 April 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Mr. Ierace, you're on your feet, and we expected something from
10 the Prosecution by the end of this week. Please tell us what you've got
11 to tell us.
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, indeed I'm on my feet in relation to
13 the issue of ABiH orders. I anticipate that by the end of today, I will
14 be able to serve upon the Defence copies of documents which are the result
15 of the search which has been undertaken over the last two weeks. Those
16 documents are due to come into the possession of the trial team by 5.00
17 this afternoon. So it may be that if we do not get them until that point,
18 that they are not delivered to the Defence until Monday. Although we are
19 not obliged to deliver copies of the documents to the Defence, we are
20 content to do so. The Rules only require inspection.
21 Mr. President, in any event, I will be able today to provide the
22 Defence with the results of 30 per cent of that search. The search has
23 been undertaken of the 50.000 approximately documents which the Defence
24 has told us they are anxious to have. The search of 30 per cent of those
25 50.000 documents has yielded 226 documents that may be relevant.
1 Certainly, some of those 226 documents are relevant. The search was done
2 by way of a search for key words or letters, and the 226 documents which
3 are the product of 30 per cent of that body of documents is the end
5 There is an index of those 226 documents which comprises some
6 eight pages. The documents have not been translated. They are in the
7 original language, Bosnian language, but there is a brief summary of the
8 contents in the English language, often just a sentence or two, and that
9 is included in the index. It is apparent that some of those documents are
10 not material, for reasons such as they relate to a period of time outside
11 the indictment period, they are of an administrative nature, or they
12 relate to the 1st Corps but not to units that are deployed within the
13 geographic area of Sarajevo. Nevertheless, we think it appropriate, given
14 the stage of proceedings, that all of those documents should be provided
15 to the Defence.
16 Some of the documents are not provided in their entirety. For
17 instance, there may be simply some pages within a document which relate to
18 Sarajevo or the 1st Corps, in which case, those pages are provided. Some
19 other documents refer to logs which are some hundreds of pages in length.
20 However, should the Defence wish to have a full copy of those documents,
21 they will be provided. The Prosecution will, of course, continue to
22 search through material as it comes into our possession, through whatever
23 trial team, which falls within our obligations under Rule 66(B). Thank
24 you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there an
1 observation you'd like to make at this moment?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I would like to thank my
3 learned friend for the quality of his presentation and to add, because we
4 can bring a comment at this point, in a few days, Mr. President, it was
5 possible for the Prosecution to make a research on about 5.000 pages, or
6 it was about 17.000 documents that they went through, 17.000 pages,
7 approximately, they examined, and I must say that this was done very
8 quickly. I must also say that the Prosecution could have done it much
9 sooner, much earlier, and they would have been able to communicate to us
10 this information which would enable us to cross-examine the witnesses,
11 namely, in relation to some incidents that are more important. Therefore,
12 the objections that we had said at the time today are even more serious
13 since we needed a lot of time and we need lots of time to examine these
14 documents. And as I said yesterday, we can always find time but we can
15 never invent time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps I should add that indeed these
18 documents had been searched by the OTP, the Office of the Prosecution, in
19 relation to the Galic trial, some months ago. The reason that we now
20 produce further documentation is because we now possess a more
21 sophisticated software search programme than we then had. You will
22 appreciate, Mr. President, that to search for the 1st Corps amongst a
23 myriad of documents is difficult because whether one searches the Roman
24 numeral "I" or the normal "1," one has very severe restrictions in being
25 able to sensibly sift through documentation. The more recent software
1 enables us to do that, and we have only been in possession of that
2 software since shortly after the trial commenced. And that has enabled us
3 in this second sift-through this material to collect more documents, some
4 of which will be relevant and some of which beyond that may be relevant.
5 Thank you, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The
8 Defence deems that justice, with a capital "J," must not depend in any way
9 of electrons.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That would be the ideal situation. On the other
11 hand, you could also approach it from a different way and say that if the
12 software helps us to do something that we couldn't perform before, that it
13 assists the course of justice.
14 I assume that the Defence will now, at least, looks at what the
15 Prosecution has produced. I even can imagine that if there are any
16 suggestions from the Defence side as far as the keys are concerned that
17 have been used during the search, that this could assist the Prosecution
18 in its ongoing effort to trace whatever documents that might be material
19 to the Defence. I think it's not very wise to speculate on what that
20 could result in, but I expect both parties to take the most constructive
21 and positive approach in order to see whether the achievement until now
22 could even be improved.
23 Mr. Ierace, I think, then, we are now at the point where you can
24 call your next witness, and that would be Mr. Gavranovic.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, Mr. Stamp will take that witness.
1 Might I be excused?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please lead the witness into the
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Gavranovic, I assume.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I took it already from your answer that you could
10 understand me. Mr. Gavranovic, before giving testimony in this Court, the
11 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration
12 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 The text of this solemn declaration will be handed out to you now by the
14 usher. May I invite you to make that declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
18 WITNESS: NEDIM GAVRANOVIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter].
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gavranovic, the order in this Court is you'll
21 first be examined by the party who called you, that's counsel for the
22 Prosecution. You'll then be examined by counsel for the Defence, and if
23 there are any additional questions from the Bench, you'll hear from us.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
25 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 1 Examined by Mr. Stamp:
2 Q. Is your name Nedim Gavranovic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you live in Sarajevo?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In 1993, did you also live in Sarajevo?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, I wish to take you to the period of early 1993. Can you
9 remember in what part of Sarajevo you lived?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What part of Sarajevo is that?
12 A. In Dobrinja.
13 Q. Did you live in any particular part of Dobrinja?
14 A. Dobrinja III.
15 Q. Now, at that time, there was a conflict going on. Is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in respect to the -- before I put it that way, and there were
19 lines of separation between the two parties to the conflict, the army of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army of the Republika Srpska?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you describe for us where you lived in respect to that line of
24 A. I lived very close to the separation line. It was a neighbourhood
25 where, on the one hand side of the buildings, you had the members of the
1 Serbian army, whereas across the road, in the other apartment buildings,
2 there was the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
3 Q. And where did you live?
4 A. I lived in a building, in the next building, the building right
5 behind the separation line, not far from it.
6 Q. And I take it you lived on the side of the army of
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you recall the morning of the 1st of June, 1993?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What type of day was that in terms of the weather?
12 A. It was a beautiful, sunny day.
13 Q. And how old were you at that time?
14 A. Twelve years old.
15 Q. Sometime in the morning of that day, did you go anywhere?
16 A. I went to the football match that was being held not far from
18 Q. Can you say where this football match was being held?
19 A. The football match took place on the parking lot not far from my
21 Q. About how far was this parking lot from your building?
22 A. Some 100 to 150 metres.
23 Q. At that time, did you live with your parents?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And were they willing or unwilling to allow you to go out of the
1 house to the football game?
2 A. Well, they didn't let me go right away, but I insisted to go. And
3 then they let me go afterwards.
4 Q. Now, how did you come to know about this football game?
5 A. I had heard it from my friends who received this information.
6 They had heard about this game.
7 Q. Was it to be one game or a tournament comprising many games that
8 was expected to take place?
9 A. It was a tournament.
10 Q. And was the time and location of the tournament well known in the
11 community before?
12 A. Well, some men knew about it. It was not broadcasted but people
13 were talking about it. So people were able to hear about the game.
14 Q. About what time did you arrive at the parking lot?
15 A. It was morning, in the morning, maybe 9.30, 10.00, approximately.
16 Q. And when you arrived, had the games started?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where did you go to when you arrived? Did you go anywhere in
19 particular at that parking lot?
20 A. I first stood on the side closer to a building, and then I went
21 and I stood behind a goal.
22 Q. And while you were watching the game, did anything happen?
23 A. While I was watching the game, one shell landed, and then a second
24 one landed as well.
25 Q. Can you say where the first shell landed?
1 A. The first shell landed directly somewhere around the centre of the
2 parking lot where the game was held.
3 Q. May I just clarify that. Did this first shell land in the centre
4 of the parking lot or in the centre of the football pitch where the game
5 was being played?
6 A. It landed in the centre of the pitch where the football game was
8 Q. And about how long after the first shell landed did the second
9 shell land?
10 A. Maybe 5 to 10 seconds after. Not longer.
11 Q. When the first shell landed, did you see anything or hear
12 anything? Tell us what happened after it landed.
13 A. At first, I wasn't aware of what was going on. I heard a very
14 strong detonation; and afterwards, I felt the shock wave from the
15 detonation because it had almost moved me a little bit. I turned towards
16 the cars that were overturned behind my back. And afterwards, a second
17 shell landed, and I started to run away. While I was running away, I was
18 able to see people that were wounded. Some were unconscious, lying there.
19 Q. Where did you run to?
20 A. I ran towards the closest street. And while I was running, I felt
21 that there was something wrong with my leg. And when I arrived to that
22 street, I saw my brother, who brought me to the closest car, and this is
23 -- and they escorted me to the hospital.
24 Q. Were you the only injured person who was taken to the hospital in
25 that car?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were there other injured persons, I take it, injured by the
4 A. Yes, there were.
5 Q. Now, to which hospital were you taken?
6 A. I was taken to the hospital in Dobrinja.
7 Q. And what happened there? Were you treated there?
8 A. Yes. Since I was conscious, I was sitting down at first and I was
9 waiting for the people, the staff members, to give some assistance to the
10 people who were heavily wounded first, because the hospital was full of
12 Q. Can you tell us, describe to us, what was happening inside the
13 hospital when you were waiting?
14 A. They were bringing the wounded. Some of the wounded were
15 transferred immediately to the city hospital in Kosevo, and they gave some
16 assistance to some other people immediately right there. In the hospital,
17 I saw lots of people that I knew. Some of them were unconscious. Some
18 were lying down. Some were crying for help from the injuries. They were
19 in pain.
20 Q. And what happened to you? What type of injury did you suffer?
21 A. I had an entry and exit wound on my right lower leg.
22 Q. And that injury was caused by what, can you say?
23 A. By a shrapnel.
24 Q. Now, when you arrived at the car park to watch the football game,
25 about how many spectators were there?
1 A. There were about 150 to 200 people.
2 Q. And what was the character of the crowd? Were there males,
3 females, children, and men in the crowd?
4 A. Mostly there were children and men, a few women, but not many.
5 Q. Did you see any persons in uniform in the crowd?
6 A. There were some people in uniform, but they were fewer in number,
7 the people in uniform.
8 Q. About what proportion of the crowd would you say was comprised of
9 people in uniform?
10 A. Well, I don't know exactly, but maybe 20 to 30 per cent.
11 Q. Did you see anybody with any weapons there that morning?
12 A. No.
13 Q. In the vicinity of that parking lot and in those apartment
14 buildings of that parking lot, had you ever seen any military activity,
15 any mortars, any soldiers armed, operating from there?
16 A. No.
17 Q. At that time, before you were injured, did you go to school?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where did you go to school in Dobrinja?
20 A. In the basement premises that were turned into classrooms.
21 Q. And where was that in relation to where you lived?
22 A. They were buildings in the same block in which I lived.
23 Q. And if you wanted to leave your building to get supplies, for
24 example, water or food, how did you travel?
25 A. We had to pass along a lot of spots that were exposed to sniper
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 fire, and it was very risky.
2 Q. The sniper fire was coming from where?
3 A. It was coming from the area of Dobrinja IV, where the Serb army
5 Q. Can you say who these snipers fired at?
6 A. They would fire at whoever was passing by: women, children,
7 adults. It didn't matter.
8 Q. Now, you lived through those circumstances and you lived through
9 the war. Can you say -- tell us whether or not you have any long-term
10 psychological condition as a result of the sniping at civilians?
11 A. Well, I think I do feel some disorder. For instance, if I hear a
12 loud noise, I get terribly scared.
13 Q. You went to the parking lot on the morning of the 1st of June,
14 1993, and there was a crowd there. Can you recall if there had been any
15 other shelling that morning before the first two shells fell in the
16 vicinity of where the football game was being held?
17 A. That morning, there was no shooting to be heard.
18 Q. When you say "no shooting," you mean no shooting apart from those
19 two shells?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you say the first shell fell in the middle of the place where
22 the fellows were playing football?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On a general matter, living in Dobrinja in the course of this
25 conflict, had you ever been anywhere in any situation where shells fell
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And sometimes when shells fall, do you hear anything, sometimes?
4 A. Sometimes you hear the whistle of the shell.
5 Q. Thank you very much.
6 MR. STAMP: That is the examination-in-chief, if it please you,
7 Mr. President, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
9 Ms. Pilipovic, I see that you're standing. Is the Defence ready
10 to cross-examine the witness? Then please proceed.
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gavranovic, good morning.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. This morning during the examination-in-chief, you told us about
16 the incident that occurred on the 1st of June, 1993. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you confirm that on the 30th of August, 2002 [Realtime
19 transcript read in error "13th"] you spoke to the investigators of the
20 Tribunal and made a statement?
21 MR. STAMP: 30th of August in which year? I think that's a
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the translation says that the
24 statement would have been given on the 13th of August, 2002. Living in
25 the future is still beyond human possibility. I don't know whether it's a
1 translation mistake.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the 30th of August, 2000.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The 30th. So there are two mistakes, yes.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Gavranovic, do you remember making that statement?
6 A. I remember making a statement. I don't know whether it was
7 exactly on that date. I think it was.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence can show
9 the witness the statement with his signature, for him to confirm whether
10 that is indeed his signature.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gavranovic.
14 Mr. Gavranovic, you told us today that you lived in the immediate
15 vicinity of the separation lines. Is that true?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You told us that there was one building in which the soldiers
18 were, that is, members of the army of Republika Srpska, and another
19 building across the road where soldiers of the ABiH were.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell us whether those soldiers lived in those buildings?
22 A. I think they did not. They lived in the neighbourhood, but they
23 defended the neighbourhood there.
24 Q. Can you tell us whether you would see those soldiers?
25 A. Yes, in passing.
1 Q. The buildings to which those soldiers went to their positions,
2 were other people living in those buildings?
3 A. Not in that one building that was right on the separation line.
4 No one was living there. People had moved out of that building.
5 Q. Can you tell us how those soldiers were dressed?
6 A. In camouflage uniform.
7 Q. When I ask you how they were dressed, I'm referring to the period
8 of 1992, 1993, and 1994. You were then young, but as far as you can
9 remember, would you say that in that period, too, you always saw them in
11 A. Yes, in uniform.
12 Q. Would you see them carrying weapons?
13 A. Yes, I would.
14 Q. You told us that your building was a hundred or 150 metres away
15 from the building which was on the front line. Can you tell us whether in
16 your own building there were any soldiers?
17 A. You mean whether they were living there?
18 Q. Yes, who were living in the building and who from positions in
19 your building defended the territory.
20 A. As far as I know, there were people living in my building, but as
21 far as -- I do not know of anyone shooting from that building.
22 Q. Do you know if there were any sniper positions on the lines held
23 by Bosnian forces?
24 A. I don't know that.
25 Q. If I were to show you a part of your statement that you made on
1 the 30th of August --
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I
3 should like to read out just two lines from that statement of this
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, for the Prosecution, just indicate the
8 page we are approximately on.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 2 of the statement,
10 fifth paragraph, last line.
11 Q. Did you state: "I assume that Bosnian soldiers close to our
12 building had several sniper positions, but I don't know where those were."
13 A. I may have said that, but that is not for sure. I said I wasn't
14 sure whether they had any or not.
15 Q. So you're telling us that you're not sure where their positions
16 were, if any?
17 A. If any? I never saw them.
18 Q. In the period of 1992, 1993, and 1994, were you in a position to
19 see and hear that there was shooting in the area of town that you lived
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. When I say that there was shooting, I mean cross-fire, shooting
23 from both sides.
24 A. I just heard the sound of shooting.
25 Q. Can you tell me how frequently you would hear that fire?
1 A. Well, almost every day.
2 Q. Can you tell us, in view of your age at the time, what weapons
3 were being fired from in your opinion in most cases?
4 A. Mostly from rifles; heavy weapons also.
5 Q. You told us that on the 1st of June, you were watching the match.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us whether before that incident, that is, before the
8 1st of June, 1993, were there any such similar group events on that
10 A. As far as I know, there were not.
11 Q. Do you know of any shells falling on that parking lot prior to the
12 1st of June, 1993?
13 A. I think they did.
14 Q. Can you tell us when?
15 A. Throughout the duration of the war, not every day but
16 occasionally. I can't tell you exactly.
17 Q. Can you tell us what the consequences were? Do you have any
18 knowledge of that?
19 A. As far as I know, I don't think anyone was wounded on that parking
20 lot before this.
21 Q. Do you know that after the shells fell on this part of the parking
22 lot, as you have told us, did any authorised officials appear on the scene
23 of the accident - I'm referring to the police - to make investigations?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. On that 1st of June, you told us that you were wounded and that
1 you were driven to the hospital in Dobrinja. Could you tell us the name
2 of the hospital in Dobrinja, if it had any name?
3 A. Everyone called it the hospital in Dobrinja. It's not really a
4 hospital but just some premises that some doctors turned into an
5 improvised hospital.
6 Q. Could you tell us how long you stayed there?
7 A. I was in hospital after that for 12 days.
8 Q. Did you lie in that hospital? Were you in bed?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you had your medical documents when you were admitted and when
11 you were discharged from hospital?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell us how many people were killed on that critical day?
14 A. I don't know the exact number of dead, but I think about 15.
15 Something like that.
16 Q. Do you know how many were wounded?
17 A. I don't know that exactly either, but I think between 50 and 70.
18 Something like that.
19 Q. Do you know that the hospital in Dobrinja was called the military
21 A. No.
22 Q. On that day when you were at the match, do you know whether in the
23 buildings that surrounded the parking lot -- and we know that those
24 buildings formed the Cyrillic letter "P." Do you know whether there were
25 any soldiers in those buildings?
1 A. Well, they lived there, but as far as I know, they just lived
3 Q. If I were to tell you that in your statement on page 2, said: "I
4 assume there were soldiers in the building because it was customary for
5 that area to be defended from apartment buildings."
6 A. Those were not those buildings. Those buildings were about one
7 block away from the first front lines, about 200 metres away. Maybe I
8 meant those buildings, that there were soldiers in them. Yes, on the
9 first lines.
10 Q. While you were living in that building at the time, did you ever
11 go to the front line?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know whether in the part of Dobrinja you lived in there
14 were atomic shelters?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know who used those shelters during the war?
17 A. During the war, I think that the soldiers slept in those atomic
19 Q. Could you tell us in relation to the parking lot where this
20 incident occurred, in your estimate, how far are the atomic shelters from
21 that parking lot, either one or several of them?
22 A. Well, maybe about a hundred metres away.
23 Q. You told us today during the examination-in-chief that you went to
24 school and that instruction took place in the basement of the buildings in
25 which you lived.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you tell us, and do you know, who was using the school?
3 A. The school was destroyed because it was on the separation line,
4 and no one could go there.
5 Q. When you say it was destroyed, could you tell us when it was
7 A. Well, it was destroyed repeatedly throughout the war because it
8 was on the separation line.
9 Q. Can you confirm that since the school was on the separation line,
10 that the BH army had positions in that school?
11 A. I don't know that.
12 Q. Can you tell us whether any member of your family was a member of
13 the BH army?
14 A. My immediate family?
15 Q. Any members of your family. Did you have soldiers who went to the
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know where the soldiers had their meals?
19 A. I don't know. Probably in canteens, military canteens.
20 Q. When you say "military canteens," did you have occasion to see
21 where those military canteens in Dobrinja were?
22 A. No.
23 Q. When you said today in answer to a question from my learned
24 friend, how many people there were in uniform, you said 20 to 30 per
25 cent. That's what you said. 20 to 30 per cent were not?
1 A. No, no. I meant 20 to 30 per cent were in uniform, in my opinion,
2 but that was a long time ago so I can't be more precise.
3 Q. Could you tell us, those people who were watching the match and
4 who were in uniform, did you know how old they were? Did you know them,
5 if you can remember?
6 A. I knew most of them the people at the match. I can't remember
7 exactly who was in uniform. But approximately the people in uniform were
8 between 20 and 40 years of age.
9 Q. When the first shell fell, did you see that very moment, and where
10 were you?
11 A. Yes, I saw it. I was just behind one of the goals, so that was
12 about -- I don't know how I can explain that. On this parking lot, a part
13 of it was being used as a football pitch, a smaller part. And I was next
14 to the overturned cars which were to stop the balls from going over and
15 from which -- so that they couldn't be seen from Serb territory.
16 Q. When you said there were cars, I think you said so that this part
17 could not be seen from Serb territory. From what part of Serb territory
18 was it possible to see that a match was being played?
19 A. No, you couldn't see that a match was being played. But if a ball
20 was to go to the other part of the parking lot from which it could be
21 seen. That's what I meant.
22 Q. So the area in between those three buildings - so please correct
23 me if I'm wrong - which part was open and from where could one see that a
24 game was being played?
25 A. Well, that open area, unprotected area, could be seen from the
1 Mojmilo hill.
2 Q. Do you know whether there were any troops at Mojmilo and which
3 troops were there?
4 A. I know that at the very beginning, it was the Yugoslav People's
5 Army, and later on, I don't know. I don't think there were any troops
6 there, as far as I know.
7 Q. Do you know, have you heard, that they were saying that on Mojmilo
8 there was the positions of the army of the ABiH?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Can you tell us how old were the players?
11 A. Well, approximately from 18 to maybe 20, 25, 26, 30. I don't
13 Q. In answer to a question put to you by my learned friend, you said
14 that you were an eyewitness or that you witnessed shellings often.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When you say "frequently," what do you mean exactly? How frequent
17 was it?
18 A. Well, every day.
19 Q. Personally, yourself, can you tell us what were the shellings that
20 you witnessed and what were the consequences of those shellings and when
21 did it happen?
22 A. I often saw shells fall. In most cases, there was nobody around
23 on the street. Nobody was injured in most cases. But there were also
24 cases where people would be injured and sometimes one or two people would
25 be killed.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Did you know if in that part of the city - and I'm talking about
2 Dobrinja - if there were fightings taking place, if fighting was taking
3 place between the two armies?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no
6 further questions for this witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
8 Mr. Stamp.
9 MR. STAMP: I have no re-examination, may it please you,
10 Mr. President, except that I would ask for your respectful permission to
11 ask one or two questions to the witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any specific reason why you kept them until now
13 or just -- ?
14 MR. STAMP: No specific reason, but having regard to something
15 which was asked in cross-examination, I thought that the information --
16 the witness might be able to provide some information to the Court.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
18 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:
19 Q. You said that there were approximately 200 spectators at the
20 football game. Was it a noisy crowd?
21 A. About 200 spectators, from what I was able to evaluate. I don't
22 know. That day, it all looked normal. I don't know what to tell you.
23 Q. Could the crowd have been heard from the Serb part of Dobrinja, do
24 you know?
25 A. I don't think so.
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 MR. STAMP: Thank you all, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 Does this question raise any additional questions from the
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gavranovic, since the Bench has no additional
8 questions to you, this ends your testimony in this Court. We are all
9 aware that it's quite a journey to testify for less than an hour in this
10 Court, but nevertheless be convinced that it is important for this Court
11 and it's important for the parties that all questions put to those who
12 were present at the relevant places and relevant times are important for
13 us because they give information which might assist us in preparing the
14 decisions we'll have to take. So thank you very much for coming to The
15 Hague, and I wish you a safe trip home again.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 MR. STAMP: The next witness is --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps before we continue, Mr. Stamp, has the exact
20 spot of the 360-degrees photograph of yesterday resulted in --
21 MR. STAMP: We have not located the person who took those
22 photographs to give us that precise information.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. STAMP: And we are asking if perhaps we could be allowed to
25 supply that information in the forthcoming week. I think we might be able
1 to give the GPS reading, as well as the exact spot as it is related to
2 other places that was described by the witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then wait for a while and see whether the
4 objection stands or not.
5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you. I
7 am surprised, I am astonished, that with so many technical devices and
8 this, I would really like to do -- General Galic is really astonished as
9 well, and I am absolutely astonished that we cannot find out where the
10 picture was taken from so that the Defence may act consequently. I think
11 that this is inadmissible.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'll just ask you a question. You
13 objected yesterday. Are you willing to wait until the information you
14 asked for is there, or do you want us to take a decision and not to wait
15 any more? That's my question to you.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We would ask you to take a
17 decision now on this matter of principle.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.
19 MR. STAMP: If a decision is to be taken now, I would respectfully
20 submit to the Court that the whole essence of what the witness has said is
21 that this -- the photograph that was shown to the Court is an accurate and
22 fair depiction of the area surrounding where the incident occurred. He
23 could describe the apartments; he could describe the hills in the
24 distance, the water tower, the whole surroundings and environs of the car
25 park. So it does, from the evidence before the Court, gives the Court a
1 useful depiction of the area in issue, and it has been identified by the
2 witness as accurate. And if that is so, it is of some use in determining
3 certain of the issues which are before the Court. And therefore, it is
5 The issue as to whatever weight a photograph of that nature will
6 furnish to the Court or can be used by the Court is something else which
7 we could come to later on. But as far as whether or not it is admissible,
8 from what the witness has said, it does, it is respectfully submitted,
9 show the Court quite accurately the environs where the shelling incident
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. STAMP: And I submit that that is sufficient in the
13 circumstances, in the circumstances of a shelling incident where there
14 were two shells fired.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So it's the position of the Prosecution that even if
16 you would not have on the position of 10 or 15 or 20 or 30 metres the
17 exact location from where the photographs were taken, that they
18 nevertheless might have probative value.
19 MR. STAMP: Indeed. Indeed.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And therefore are admissible.
21 MR. STAMP: And if I could add one thing: We will be in a
22 position to provide the exact position in any case.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you,
25 Mr. President. There is a reason for which we maintain this position. The
1 reason is the following: The witness that we heard yesterday stated that
2 he was standing at approximately a metre fifty from the impact point of
3 this shell. It seems that technically and, unfortunately, it is almost
4 impossible to survive such a detonation, such an explosion, that would
5 have occurred at a metre fifty from somebody that would have taken on a
6 hard surface such as an asphalt surface. We shall try to prove this
7 later. But it is highly improbable that this witness could have been
8 situated at a metre fifty from such an explosion of an 80 millimeters
9 mortar. It is quite impossible. So I would like to know if the picture
10 was taken from one extremity of the pitch or the other. The witness
11 stated, I believe it was an expression, but he said that he had received
12 approximately 1.500 shrapnels in his body, and we are quite astonished by
13 this. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your explanation of the basis of your
15 objection, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 Mr. Stamp, your next witness will be?
17 MR. STAMP: Omer Hadziabzic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please...
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadziabdic, can you hear me in a language you
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadziabdic, before giving testimony in this
24 Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
25 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
1 the truth. The text of this declaration will be given to you now by the
2 usher, and I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
6 Witness: Omer Hadziabdic
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadziabdic, you'll first be examined by counsel
9 for the Prosecution. Later, you'll be examined by counsel for the
10 Defence. So that's the order in this Court. And if we have any
11 additional questions, we'll put them to you as well.
12 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.
13 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Examined by Mr. Stamp:
15 Q. Could you please tell us your name.
16 A. My name is Omer Hadziabdic.
17 Q. And do you live in Sarajevo?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. For about how long have you lived there?
20 A. Since my birth.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm terribly
23 sorry for Mr. Stamp, for interrupting him. I must interrupt for the
24 clarity of the debate. If I understand correctly from the French booth,
25 the questions asked by Mr. Stamp were inaudible. Mr. Stamp would maybe
1 like to repeat those questions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that the -- we have an English translation,
3 but if the interpreters were not able in the French booth to translate
4 them, I would rather suggest that we repeat what is on our transcript. So
5 I'll -- could we first have a confirmation of the French booth that they
6 are not able to hear Mr. Stamp, and not to hear the answers? I now have
7 to switch to five. Could you confirm?
8 Thank you. I will then slowly repeat what the questions and the
9 answers were so that the French booth will be able to translate it so that
10 we don't have to go through the questions, at least, we don't have to put
11 them to the witness again.
12 The first question was: "Could you please tell us your name."
13 Answer: "My name is Omer Hadziabdic." "And do you live in Sarajevo?"
14 "Yes." "For about how long have you lived there?" "Since my birth."
15 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. And did you live there in 1993?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in which area or community in Sarajevo did you live in 1993?
20 A. In 1993, I lived in Dobrinja.
21 Q. Can you say what part of Dobrinja you lived at?
22 A. Dobrinja III. Dobrinja IIIB.
23 Q. Now, can you recall the years 1993 and 1994? Did you experience
24 any sniping or shelling in the community where you lived?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you describe to us the nature of the sniping first.
2 A. Throughout 1993 and 1992, and a large portion of 1994, we were
3 submitted to sniping fire, shelling. The sniping fire with regards to the
4 building where I lived was accessible from all sides. So the sniper shot
5 from both sides, from one side and through the other side through the
6 street. So the sniping fire was dividing the street in two. Therefore,
7 it was impossible to go from one building to the other. And the same
8 thing happened between my heating plant and my building, we couldn't go
9 through because of the sniping shots. And we also had to go to the woods
10 to get wood. We did not have any wood. We did not have any heating
11 because the heating plant was shelled. It was not operational, and this
12 is why we had to go to the woods to get the wood, and we were always
13 submitted to sniping fire. So every time that we would try to go for
14 water, to gather wood to heat, any humanitarian movement, any humanitarian
15 reason that we had to move, everything we had to do to survive was
16 hindered and our lives were always at stake.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us who these snipers targeted or shot
18 while you lived in Dobrinja?
19 A. No, they did not choose their targets. They shot, they fired
20 independently of the age, independently also of the fact whether it's a
21 civilian or a soldier, an adult or a child. They did not look at the
22 ethnicity. They didn't choose their target. They shot at everything that
23 moved, even animals. They didn't even choose between an animal and a
24 man. They shot at everything that they could at.
25 Q. These snipers that you speak of who shot at both civilians and
1 soldiers, from where did they fire?
2 A. They fired from the positions held by the Serbs, positions held by
3 the Serbian army.
4 Q. And could you tell us about your experience in relation to
5 shelling in that period.
6 A. Shelling took place on a daily basis. They were shelling targets
7 according to their own choice. It was not important to them whether it
8 was a civilian target or a military target. They were just firing at
9 targets independently of whether they were civilians or military targets.
10 I, myself, was a victim of a shell. I was myself injured or wounded by
11 one of the -- by a shrapnel coming from a shell. I talked about the
12 heating plant earlier. It was shelled as well, although it is not a
13 military target. My building was also shelled, although it is not a
14 military target. The shell fell on our building. With regards to the
15 street, the same thing was happening on the street. The park, also, where
16 children played. This park was for children to play there, and for them,
17 that represented also a target. They shelled the park. They shelled
18 every place they wanted. They did not choose their target.
19 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that even when people were involved in
20 humanitarian activity such as collecting water, they were the victims of
21 sniper fire. Can you remember where you would go to collect water?
22 A. We would go for water, if you're talking about drinking water,
23 first we had to go to Dobrinja V to get it. And from my building, the
24 place where we would go to get water was approximately 500 metres away.
25 I'm not quite sure. Then we dug up a well, but the capacity of this well
1 was not sufficient to supply all of us with water, so we would have to
2 wait for a day or two for the water to come from the well, because the
3 quantities were quite limited.
4 Q. Could you go a little bit more slowly, please.
5 A. No problem.
6 Q. You said that you'd have to wait for a day or two for water to
7 come for the well -- from the well. Where was this well?
8 A. The well was behind the building across the street from my
9 building. This is where we had dug up a well, and there was a hand pump
10 that was placed there. It's a sort of a old-fashioned hand pump that you
11 can see in villages. And this is where we would get water, but the water
12 was only sufficient for drinking water. We didn't have more water than
13 that to use. We could only cook that water or drink that water, whereas
14 the water to wash ourselves, to wash the clothes, for that kind of water,
15 we would use the water from the stream. But in order to get to that
16 stream, we had to go on two occasions --
17 Q. What is that stream called?
18 A. It's called Dobrinja stream. This is how we call it.
19 Q. And in order to get there, how would you travel?
20 A. There were visual shelters from sniping activities. We had to go
21 first through a space between buildings. My street was cut off, if you
22 will, from the sniping activities. And as you go towards the stream, you
23 had to go across that sniping field. This is how we called it. We said
24 we had to go over that one sniper, where that one sniper was firing, and
25 then visually they had -- we had built a barrier so that the sniping --
1 sniper doesn't see us. But if the sniper just decided to shoot, it
2 couldn't really protect you from the fire. So after we passed that one
3 sniper, we would go towards the river.
4 Q. What type of barrier was that?
5 A. I don't understand the question.
6 Q. You said that you built a visual barrier. Can you say what it was
7 built of?
8 A. Those were -- on that part for which I'm talking now, those were
9 overturned cars, old cars, that were placed there so that the sniper
10 doesn't see if somebody runs across or that the sniper cannot see that
11 person clearly so that the target cannot be very clear and precise. So
12 the sniper was able maybe to see you, to see somebody run. But the sniper
13 could not really pinpoint the exact position where the person was so that
14 the sniper was not able to target the person running across. Then we
15 would go towards the river. Now, near the river, the river was also
16 covered by snipers. But under the bridge, we used -- see, the angle from
17 which he was firing, if you go under the bridge, he doesn't see us well.
18 Q. Slow down, please.
19 A. Sure. So then the bridge was covering us. The bridge was
20 covering us in a way, but it was difficult to get to that bridge. And so
21 when we get to the bridge, there was a trench that was dug out, not very
22 long trench, and then we go through the trench, and then we used that
23 bridge as a cover, because he was probably shooting from somewhere up
24 high. So he couldn't really see us very well.
25 Q. Do you know of any persons who were shot in any of these areas?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I know of one person, but I don't know his name. I know he was
2 shot at the stream when he went to fetch water.
3 Q. Now, can you say when that occurred?
4 A. I think -- I think this was in 1993, though really I don't
5 remember the dates very precisely, whether it was 1993 or 1994. All this
6 was a long time ago.
7 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, I am about to turn to a different area.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and since it is 10.30, that would be a suitable
9 moment to have a break.
10 Mr. Hadziabdic, we'll have a break for half an hour. That means
11 that Mr. Stamp will resume his examination of you as a witness after that.
12 We'll adjourn until 11.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, please.
16 MR. STAMP: If it please you, Mr. President, Your Honours, before
17 I proceed, may I just make one quick submission. I just would like to
18 submit respectfully that I don't think there would be any serious
19 prejudice to any party if the decision as to the admittance of the
20 360-degree photograph be postponed until we can get more information
21 before the Court, notwithstanding my earlier submission that in respect to
22 a shelling incident where there is no direct line of sight as where the
23 Prosecution say the thing is fired from, the precise spot is of no great
24 moment, but perhaps the Court, if it sees that there's no prejudice to the
25 proceedings, could postpone any decision until we could get that
1 information for the Chamber's benefit.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider that, Mr. Stamp.
3 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. STAMP:
6 Q. Mr. Hadziabdic, could I take you now to the day, the 1st of June,
7 1993. On the morning of that day, what was the weather like?
8 A. It was a typical summer day, no rain, no clouds. So it was the
9 normal summer weather.
10 Q. And did you leave from your home to go anywhere?
11 A. That morning, I didn't go out at all, though I was meant to go.
12 That was the first time I didn't go, because it was Bajram, and we observe
13 Bajram by going to the mosque first thing in the morning, about 7.00 or
14 8.00. You go to the mosque. That morning we didn't go to the mosque
15 because it was too risky because of sniping and other things.
16 The mosque was located in a building in Dobrinja II which used to
17 be an Alhos shop, a textile shop, before the war. That is where the
18 mosque was, because the old mosque was destroyed. It was on the front
19 line, so we didn't dare go to the mosque because of sniping. And that is
20 why that morning I didn't go to the mosque. We didn't go anywhere. I
21 stayed at home.
22 Later --
23 Q. Very well. Later, did you go anywhere?
24 A. Later, I went to the basement because I had nothing to keep me
25 occupied. I couldn't go anywhere else but to the basement, because, you
1 know, when there is Bajram, we have something sweet to eat, but we had
2 nothing to eat, in fact. We didn't have sugar even to make tea, so this
3 made me nervous, and I was upset, and I went downstairs to calm down, to
4 do some repair work on my bike, simply to keep me occupied.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 A. And since --
7 Q. Remember to take it a little bit slowly.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's also because of the translation. You speak
9 rather quickly, and the interpreters have to interpret everything you said
10 into English and to French, so I think that's the reason why Mr. Stamp
11 urges you to take it a bit more slowly. I hope you understand.
12 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. And the basement you went to is the basement of your apartment
15 A. Yes. In my own, to my own cellar, in fact.
16 Q. And you worked on your bike there?
17 A. Yes. Yes, I was repairing my bike.
18 Q. Did you repair it?
19 A. Yes, as far as I was able to in those days. Since the window of
20 my cellar faces Dobrinja IV and Lukavica, that is, the direction I later
21 learned when the tournament was organised, I heard some noise. In those
22 days, when ten people were talking, that was a noise, because there were
23 no cars driving around. There was no electricity, so you couldn't hear
24 any noise at all.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you, thank you very much. Now remember to take it
1 slowly and to listen to what I'm asking.
2 Having done some work on your bicycle, did you go anywhere after
4 A. Yes. I heard that there were people, and there were some noise,
5 and then I went out to try and test my bicycle.
6 Q. Where did you go to?
7 A. I went behind the building. Before the war, there was a kind of
8 children's playground and a parking, lot, an area that was not covered by
9 snipers. So at least as far as sniping was concerned, one could move
10 around safely. And it was an exceptionally quiet day.
11 Q. Is this -- you spoke of a tournament. Did you go to that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That was a football tournament?
15 A. Yes. As this is close to --
16 Q. And -- well, I was about to ask where in relation to your
17 apartment building was this football tournament taking place.
18 A. It was taking place behind my building, at the parking lot. So I
19 tested my bike over a distance of some 100 metres, and then I went up to
20 see what was going on. I still didn't know that there was a tournament,
21 in fact. And as I approached, I saw -- I recognised many of my friends.
22 But as I was on my bike, I couldn't get right up to my close friends
23 because I couldn't reach them by bike.
24 Q. Very well.
25 A. So I found a spot for myself --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadziabdic, may I ask you the following: You're
2 giving us a lot of information. Some information is more relevant than
3 other information, and as you might have noticed, or perhaps you know -
4 and if not, I'll inform you - that these trials take a very, very long
5 time. And therefore, I would ask you to listen very carefully to
6 Mr. Stamp and to answer specifically to what he asks you. If, for
7 example, he were to ask you have you come to the Tribunal by car? Then
8 you could answer, yes, I came by car, or I did not come by car. Whether
9 the car you came in was red or blue or whether there are five or six or
10 seven passengers, if Mr. Stamp would like to know that, he'll ask that in
11 his next question. So he'll then ask you, was the car red or blue? But
12 you're giving us a lot of information while we're trying to use our time
13 very efficiently, and we want to get specific answers to specific
14 questions. So could you please try to help us. Listen well, answer the
15 question, and if there's any additional information we need, I'm certain
16 that Mr. Stamp will ask you for that. This is no criticism; this is just
17 explaining how we work in this courtroom and how we are trying to use our
18 time as efficient as possible.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
22 MR. STAMP: I'm obliged, Mr. President.
23 Q. When you arrived at the parking lot, was the football game in
25 A. I'm not sure what time it was, about 10.00, 10.30. I'm not sure.
1 Q. And was a game being played at that time?
2 A. Yes. It was in progress.
3 Q. And where exactly in relation to where this game was being played
4 did you go to?
5 A. We were to stand in the middle of the pitch and facing the goal.
6 I'm talking about the goal closer to where the shell fell. So it would
7 mean the right-hand corner.
8 Q. Can I take it from your answer you stood near to the right-hand
9 corner of the football playing area, if you are facing the direction where
10 the shell came from, or the shell fell, I beg your pardon. And your
11 answer is yes?
12 A. Yes. If you're standing in the middle of the pitch. I'm talking
13 about the first shell.
14 Q. Well, tell us: A shell landed on the pitch. Is that correct?
15 A. Correct. The pitch itself.
16 Q. And could you tell us what happened when that shell landed?
17 A. The match was ongoing. I was standing where I said when the shell
18 impacted. We heard a terrible explosion. There was black smoke in front
19 of our eyes. I felt a very strong blow in my chest, and the explosion
20 threw me over a car, and I fell. And instinctively, I covered my head,
21 expecting a second one, expecting a second shell, because I knew that one
22 was never enough.
23 Q. Now, as you lay there, did anything happen after that?
24 A. Yes. Some people started running away in panic, those who could
25 run, without thinking of the possibility of another one falling. Then
1 shortly after that, a couple of seconds later, a second shell fell a few
2 metres away from the first. And this second shell again affected quite a
3 number of people and wounded them, those who were running away. So it was
4 the same kind of explosion that was heard a couple of seconds later. And
5 of course, the cries, the screams and panic. After that --
6 Q. One moment. You said twice that the second shell fell a couple of
7 seconds later. Can you just tell us what you mean about how long after
8 the first shell fell did the second one fall?
9 A. Maybe 10 or so seconds later. I don't know exactly.
10 Q. After the second shell fell, did you do anything?
11 A. Yes. I got up. I felt my chest where I had felt the blow, and I
12 thought the shrapnel had hit me there. Later, I did notice maybe a pebble
13 or something had hit me. But anyway, nothing dangerous. I saw that
14 nothing was wrong. There was no blood. And I started running. As I saw
15 other people running away, I, too, ran to the closest entrance to the
16 building, the closest building and one of the entrances that had been made
17 there. It wasn't a normal entry place but an improvised entrance to that
19 Q. And did you reach to that entrance?
20 A. Yes, I entered. I went inside.
21 Q. And what followed after that?
22 A. When I got inside, I found a young man there. I later learned his
23 name was Ferid Muzaci. He was wounded in the palm of his hand. He was
24 bleeding profusely. Without knowing that I, too, had been wounded and
25 seeing that he was bleeding heavily, I tried to help him. There was
1 panic. People already knew where the shell had fallen, that there were a
2 lot of wounded people. Some women came running down the steps, looking
3 for pieces of cloth or anything to stop the bleeding. As there was no
4 sanitary medical equipment available or bandages, ordinary cloths were
5 used. And then I, myself, realised that something warm was flowing down
6 my leg, down my left leg, was running down my leg. I saw a hole in my
7 trousers, and my trousers were bloodied. I realised I, too, had been
8 wounded, and the first thing that occurred to me was my mother, what she
9 was thinking, because already people knew that a shell had landed. I left
10 that guy to the women and I went looking for aid myself, and I wanted to
11 get home, to let them know I was alive. And then I saw my mother running
12 towards me in panic, looking for me, and I kept saying "I'm okay, I'm
13 okay," and she saw me holding on to my leg.
14 Q. Stop there. Were you taken to the hospital?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Which hospital was that?
17 A. I was taken to the Dobrinja hospital, which is maybe 5 minutes on
18 foot, 5 to 10 minutes on foot from the spot where the shell had fallen.
19 Q. Were you treated there?
20 A. Yes, they gave me first aid, that is, they just stopped the
21 bleeding because there were many people with far more serious injuries and
22 the hospital was too small to deal with them. So I was given first aid
23 and left to wait until they hospitalised those who were in a worse
24 condition. So I was there waiting for my turn to come to be treated.
25 Q. Were you admitted that day or were you discharged home?
1 A. I was discharged for treatment at home.
2 Q. And did you return to the hospital from time to time for
4 A. Yes. Yes. For dressing of my wounds and for regular checkups.
5 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, with your leave, I'd like to show the
6 witness document marked P2506B.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. Mr. Usher, could you assist Mr. Stamp.
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Once
10 again, a problem of translation. I see here that the translation is
11 incomplete. What I suggest we do is that we wait for Mr. Stamp's
12 questions, and then we will come back and we will have a request to make
13 that we be shown the original.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I follow your suggestion that we first wait what
15 questions Mr. Stamp will put to the witness.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
17 MR. STAMP:
18 Q. Could you have a look at that document which was given to you by
19 the usher.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that a copy of your medical report in respect to your treatment
22 for the injuries you received from that shelling incident?
23 A. Yes, it's a copy of the report I received that same day in
24 hospital, after which I was sent home, for treatment at home.
25 Q. Firstly, do you see your name on the document?
1 A. Yes. My surname and name, Hadziabdic Omer, and my year of birth.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, you said that you got it the same day. We will
3 get to that document that you have shortly. Do you see written in hand on
4 it various dates going down to the 16th of June, 1993?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If you got it on the 1st of June, 1993, can you explain how it is
7 that these writings were made on it?
8 A. I received the report on the 1st of June, 1993, when I was
9 admitted to hospital and when I was treated. Then, you see, I was sent
10 for home treatment, and it says, "Check-up in two days' time in the
11 bandaging department." And then, by hand, there is an indication when I
12 reported for check-ups, when I was bandaged and given medical treatment.
13 All this went on until the 16th of June, 1993. So what is written here is
14 when I was bandaged and when I should come again for a check-up.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. On the 16th of June -- on the 16th of June, 1993, I was bandaged,
17 and I was told to come back in four days' time. So it didn't end on the
18 16th. I reported once again four days later.
19 Q. You took from your pocket a document. What document did you take
20 from your pocket? Could you just tell us in two words what document that
22 A. It is the original of this document. This is the original of this
24 Q. Thank you. When you were at the football pitch immediately after
25 the two shells fell, did you recognise any of the persons who were injured
2 A. Yes, many of the people.
3 Q. Were -- could you tell us the composition of the people who were
4 killed and injured? Were they males, females, children, adults, older
6 A. Mainly, those were men. Most of them were civilians and children.
7 So there were a lot of my friends of my age, and I, myself, was 15 years
9 Q. You have spoken to the Court or you have told the Court about your
10 experiences of sniping and shelling in that civilians in the Dobrinja
11 area. Having lived through that, have you any long-term psychological
12 effect or trauma as a result of the sniping and shelling of civilians in
14 A. Of course. What happens to a person at an early age can never be
15 forgotten, especially if one loses one's dear friends, friends who were
16 only guilty of being born or having been born, perhaps, in the wrong
17 country at the wrong time; Young men born and killed because they were
18 called Adil or they had some other name; young men who were not guilty of
19 anything, who were perhaps of another ethnicity, and in the end, children
20 who wanted to go outside and see something nice. They were killed for no
21 reason, and you know very well that I, myself, was a victim of many
22 sniping shots. It happened to me that I had to lie down in the snow for
23 many hours because of the sniping activity. You know, these things cannot
24 be forgotten so easily.
25 Q. And during the conflict, were you able to identify any sound
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 coming from an arriving mortar?
2 A. Yes. When you hear the sound, it means that it's already gone. It
3 has already passed by. You cannot hear the noise, and then you see it.
4 When you hear the noise, it's already gone. And that same thing would
5 happen when you would deal with small calibre weapons, and even airplane
6 bombs that had such fearful sounds that our blood would freeze in our
7 veins. But we became so used to it and we became such experts in these
8 sounds that we could recognise what kind of projectile was passing by when
9 you hear that noise.
10 Q. What type of sound would a mortar make if it passed by and you
11 heard it?
12 A. "Bzzzt," something like that.
13 Q. I'm afraid I'm not in a position to help the Court with a
14 description. I think we all heard it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think if there would be any need --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think you would have to hear it to
17 understand it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If there would be any need at a later stage to know
19 exactly --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the man who is laughing
21 right now, if he had heard it, he would really not find it so funny,
22 especially if he would have lost a dear friend after hearing that sound.
23 I don't know what's so funny.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think the story you're telling is not funny. The
25 sound you made, we have some difficulties --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman was laughing, very
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that being taken back to these
4 moments might hurt you. Nevertheless, I have to ask you to refrain from
5 comments because we're in a court of law here and we'll listen to
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm terribly sorry.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's fully accepted.
9 Mr. Stamp, I would say that it's very difficult to describe this
10 sound. If there would be any need for anyone, we're in the lucky
11 circumstances that we have an audiotape, so everyone could listen exactly
12 to what it was.
13 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.
14 Q. How far did you live from the place where this football game was
15 taking place?
16 A. Between 30 and 50 metres. I'm not quite sure.
17 Q. And in that location, were there any military positions in the
18 location of your apartment building and the park itself, parking lot?
19 A. No, there were no military positions, not before, not during, and
20 not after the match. So those were just apartment buildings.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. STAMP: That, Mr. President, is the examination-in-chief of
23 this witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
25 Mr. Hadziabdic, it's now up to counsel for the Defence to examine
2 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. Very well. You were treated, if I understood correctly, at the
8 Dobrinja hospital. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Why were you treated in a military hospital?
11 A. Because I couldn't go to the city. Only the heavily wounded
12 people were able to get there over the barricades, and those barricades
13 were hit, were targeted, by the gentlemen who were under the command of
14 your client.
15 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, I am a bit late in rising and I will
16 try not to rise every time something like this happens but I didn't hear
17 any evidence from this witness that he was treated at a military hospital.
18 Maybe I'm mistaken. My friend is putting it to the witness that that
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please respond.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Stamp, this stems
22 from your own documents that you have submitted. This is a delirium. You
23 must read them.
24 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter made a mistake.
25 MR. STAMP: All I'm saying, is that it is improper to put to this
1 witness that he stayed at a military hospital unless there's an
2 evidentiary foundation for it. He may ask the witness, "Did you stay at a
3 military hospital?" But the witness has not put that in evidence. But he
4 ought not --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is very
8 simple. This is a document that stems from the Prosecution, and they are
9 pretending not to know what it means.
10 Q. Witness, would you kindly read what is written on that stamp
11 that's at the middle of the page?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let's try to make everything as
13 clear as possible. The mere fact that documents of the Prosecution
14 indicate that it was a military hospital does not mean that it is the
15 Prosecution's view that the hospital was a military one. On the other
16 hand, we usually accept, especially of course in cross-examination,
17 questions to be leading. Mr. Stamp, when I look at the question put by
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, at least in the English translation, it doesn't say
19 that it was the witness who said that it was a military hospital. He said
20 something like, if I understood well, understood from where is not
21 specifically mentioned.
22 If it would be in dispute, then of course we could ask
23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin to rephrase his question. If it's not in dispute that
24 it was a military hospital - I don't know whether it is or not - but then
25 of course the witness could be led to the hospital as being a military
1 one, and then asked why he went to such a hospital. Yes?
2 MR. STAMP: It is my submission that is precisely the way the
3 question was put to the witness, "Why were you treated in a military
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. STAMP: To put a question like that, it would have first -- it
7 would be proper to establish first that the witness understood himself to
8 be treated in a military hospital.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with you that if there has been no
10 discussion between the parties on whether Dobrinja hospital was a military
11 hospital, it would have been proper for Mr. Piletta-Zanin not just to
12 assume on the basis of documents provided by the Prosecution that it was a
13 military hospital. If, for example, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have presented
14 in evidence several times annexes to the report of the committee of
15 experts, if the Prosecution could take it from that that the committee of
16 experts, the whole content of it, would be admitted as being true by the
17 Defence, you might have a problem.
18 So let's not assume just on the basis of facts contained in
19 documents provided by the other party that these facts are not in
20 dispute. So let's try to be a bit precise on that. Yes, please proceed.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 Q. Witness --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will be very clear,
24 Mr. President, as I try to be always.
25 Q. Witness, could you please read what is written on the stamp in the
1 middle of the page. No, Witness, please do not take that document.
2 Please take the other document, because I haven't seen this particular
3 document that you're holding.
4 Would you kindly take the other document, whether you like it or
5 not. Yes, that one --
6 A. This is the original. I can see it better.
7 Q. It is not my problem. I am asking you to take the document that I
8 have seen, and not the document that I have not seen.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadziabdic, there's one document I understand
10 that you brought yourself, and the other one has been given to you.
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin now invites you to look at the document given to you in
12 this courtroom. And you explained to us that it's the same, but would you
13 please look at the copy given to you in this courtroom, which has a
14 sticker on it on the top.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Witness, would you kindly read only what is written on the sticker
18 or the stamp right in the middle of that document.
19 A. I am terribly sorry, but would you like me to read what I see or
20 what I know what is written?
21 Q. I do not want to know what you know but what you can see.
22 A. We can read "V J N A B O D," it looks like an "O B," and the rest
23 is illegible.
24 Q. Very well. You only read half of the word. I did not hear you
25 read "Sarajevo," which is perfectly legible. So you either cooperate --
1 you do not see Sarajevo?
2 A. Yes, I do see Sarajevo. I'm terribly sorry. I was only reading
3 the upper portion.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, will you use your voice in a
5 different way. Will you please proceed.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. Witness, the words that you have read, the letters that you have
8 read, as we have seen it, for the first word, should we not consider it to
9 be the word "Vojna"?
10 A. It can also be JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.
11 Q. Witness, were you treated by the JNA, by the Yugoslav People's
13 A. No.
14 Q. Witness, if it is not the Yugoslav People's Army, would you then
15 say that that first word would stand for "Vojna," "military" in
17 A. I do not know.
18 Q. You do not know or you wish not -- you choose not to say?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadziabdic, the hospital in Dobrinja you were
20 treated in, was that a military hospital?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can see on the stamp "military
22 hospital, Dobrinja," and on the upper hand corner, we can see "hospital of
23 Dobrinja." I really don't know if this is a military hospital or a
24 civilian hospital but I do know that all the wounded would go to that
25 hospital to be treated.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Did you notice any military personnel, doctors,
2 nurses, whatever, in that hospital?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the doctors were wearing outfits
4 like all other doctors in the world. And like all the other doctors in
5 every other hospital, they were all wearing white clothes. I didn't see
6 anybody wearing a military outfit. All the doctors were wearing white
7 clothes, which is a typical medical way of dressing.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have any other indication, apart from perhaps
9 the documents you received, that it was a military hospital??
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot conclude from anything else
11 whether it was a military hospital or a civilian hospital. I really do
12 not know. I only know what I saw myself and what I see now.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, but what
16 I wanted to note as well, that in the English translation that we received
17 bearing number B1, we do not see the mention of this military word, of
18 this stamp.
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... the witness, of
20 course, we noticed that there's no translation of the stamp, and I
21 expected of course you to come back to that. But perhaps we first not
22 discuss the documents but first examine the witness and, at the end, we'll
23 see what other observations are there to be made.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
25 Q. Witness, you stated on page 11, line 12, that you had not seen any
1 military activities inside the buildings that were around the parking
2 lot. Do you confirm this, yes or no?
3 A. On that day, I did not see any military activities going on, not
4 in my building and not in the two other buildings that surround the
5 parking lot. I have not noticed anything.
6 Q. Very well. Witness, the days that preceded the incident, were
7 there any military activities going on in your building, the building you
9 A. In my building, there were no [Realtime transcript read in error
10 "in"] military activities.
11 Q. Witness, not far from the football pitch, was there a front line
12 with trenches?
13 A. Yes, but on the other side and inside the hill, so on the other
14 side of the road and on the hill.
15 Q. Witness, at how many metres, please?
16 A. I couldn't tell you precisely. Maybe a hundred metres, 200
18 Q. Witness, is this what we call the first defence line?
19 A. The first defence line was located 300 metres away in the building
20 of Partizanska Olimpijada. It was the first building of the community
21 Dobrinja IV.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Before continuing, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, in the English
23 transcript it reads on page 53, line 7: "In my building, there were in
24 military activities." It was our understanding that the witness testified
25 that there were no military activities. Just for sake of clarity.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I thank Judge Nieto-Navia
3 for his observation.
4 Q. Witness, you're talking about the first front line situated at 300
5 metres away. Where was the second defence line?
6 A. I do not know. I was 15 years old at the time, and I'm not a
7 military expert. I was not going in, going there, going on the defence
8 line. I was not going to the first defence line. I did not go into the
9 trench that you're talking about. I did not go to that line that was
10 right in the hills. Children were not allowed there.
11 Q. You're talking about Mojmilo hill, Mojmilo Brdo?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Witness, thank you for your answer. You have stated that you are
14 not a military expert. However, earlier in your statement on page 31,
15 line 6, you have indicated to us that "they," and we do not who you're
16 talking about exactly, but they were targeting all targets independently
17 of civilian targets or military targets. Since you were not an expert,
18 Witness, what makes you say -- how can you know that there is a difference
19 between a civilian target or a military target?
20 A. You can decide for yourself. Is a child who is 13 or 15 years old
21 a military target or not?
22 Q. You have stated they were shooting at anything independently of
23 what it was, whether it was a military target or a civilian target, but
24 could you tell us, Mr. Witness, where were the military targets? Those
25 are your own words. So where were those military targets in Dobrinja?
1 A. A military target is a line, a mortar, a bunker, a military
2 bunker. But a football pitch is not a military target where most
3 spectators are children. That is not a military target. So when I told
4 you, for instance, where the first line of defence was, that's a military
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
8 Q. And I asked you if you knew where the military targets were
9 located, since you make a difference. For instance, do you know where the
10 general headquarters were of the 5th Brigade?
11 A. I don't know exactly.
12 Q. If you know in an approximate way, could you tell us, in a general
14 A. Dobrinja II.
15 Q. Thank you. Do you know the street name?
16 A. I don't know exactly.
17 Q. Was it right next to the Dobrinja hospital?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Was it not at a distance of some 100 to 150 metres from the
21 A. I don't know exactly.
22 Q. You're saying that you don't know exactly, but could that have
23 been the case?
24 A. Maybe yes, maybe no.
25 Q. I agree with you that everything is possible in life, but do you
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 know, Witness, where the atomic shelters are located, those that belonged
2 to the Dobrinja buildings?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Do you know if near the football pitch was there an atomic
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What distance was it from there?
8 A. Approximately 100 metres away. But the building was in between,
9 and the building is still there, actually. It's right there in between
10 the football pitch and the atomic shelter.
11 Q. Who was using this atomic shelter, to your knowledge?
12 A. I'm not quite certain if the mosque was there during the war. I
13 can't tell you about it now because I'm not sure if it was there at the
14 time. I'm not quite sure. I know that there is a mosque, but whether it
15 was erected right after the war or during the war, I don't know. But that
16 mosque is still there.
17 Q. Very well. Do you know if inside these atomic shelters the
18 military was stationed? Were there any soldiers there?
19 A. What do you mean "soldiers"? What do you mean, in what capacity
20 are you talking about soldiers?
21 Q. In the military sense of the word. A military man is a man who is
22 not necessarily armed, an armed man, because we know that not enough
23 weapons were able for everybody. But military men are soldiers
24 independently of the fact whether they carry a weapon or not. Soldiers.
25 A. Are you talking about soldiers on duty or soldiers while they are
1 not on duty to take shelter inside the shelter, maybe to go to the
2 mosque --
3 Q. I see, Witness, that you are testifying almost as an expert
4 witness. That's very good. So do you know if --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Refrain from comments, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and ask
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. And certainly.
8 Q. Witness, could you please tell us, if you know, and answer with a
9 yes or a no, do you know if soldiers were stationed in those atomic
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Witness, you do not know or you choose not to say?
13 A. I don't know for what period of time you're asking me this
14 question. I don't know what kind of soldiers. Is it a soldier that went
15 to the mosque not carrying a weapon or a soldier that is -- I don't know
16 what you're talking about.
17 Q. Witness, I will help you. I will help you. What can you tell us,
18 regardless of the period of time, but during the war, what can you tell us
19 about soldiers who would have been stationed or who would have gone to
20 atomic shelters?
21 A. It is possible that there were some soldiers, but not on duty, not
22 carrying out any kind of order. It was not a barracks. Maybe they were
23 there to take shelter from something. That is quite possible.
24 Q. Very well. Witness, you said that there were no barracks there,
25 but where were the barracks in Dobrinja located?
1 A. As far as I know, there were no barracks.
2 Q. Thank you for your answer. If there were no barracks, where did
3 the soldiers sleep?
4 A. They were on the front lines. I don't know how they were
5 structured but, anyway, those who were on the front line, they were on the
6 front line. And those who were not on the front line were at home.
7 Q. But the soldiers, where were they quartered? Where did they
9 A. Probably on the front lines, those who were on assignment. So
10 some would be on duty; others would be sleeping, and then they would take
11 turns. And those who were not on the front line, they went home. They
12 stayed with their family, wives, children.
13 Q. Witness, what were their weapons? Do you know?
14 A. Who?
15 Q. Of the soldiers.
16 A. You mean our whole army or the weapons at the disposal of our army
17 or of the soldiers on the front line?
18 Q. I'm asking but what you saw. Did you see soldiers coming back
19 from the lines, armed with mortars? If you did, tell us. If you saw
20 something else, tell us that, please.
21 A. I did not see soldiers armed with mortars. As for weapons like
22 rifles and such like, that could rarely be seen because most of the
23 weaponry was at the front. So the people changed but the weapons
25 Q. Witness, do you know whether civilians manufactured their own
1 weapons with, for instance, water pipes, any makeshift weapons?
2 A. Civilians, I don't know. I don't know about civilians making
3 weapons out of water pipes. I never saw anything like that. And what I
4 didn't see, I can't tell you about.
5 Q. Yes, it's better that way.
6 Witness, to come back to what you saw, please, with regard to the
7 apartment buildings, the buildings that were close to the front line, were
8 they used by forces of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
9 A. Yes, when they went home to sleep with their families, wives and
11 Q. But were certain buildings used as positions for defence, as
12 firing positions from which fire could come?
13 A. The first line, that building was abandoned by the civilians. On
14 the first line were the military positions. That is the first line, the
15 first building next to Dobrinja IV, that is where the military was.
16 Q. So in an apartment building, a building that was an apartment
17 building; is that right?
18 A. It used to be, but it was abandoned by the civilians. It was used
19 by the army, so that was the first line. That line could have been
20 destroyed and trenches built, but the building was used such as it was.
21 Q. Very well. Where was the second line, as far as you know?
22 A. I don't know much about that.
23 Q. Could you localise it very approximately?
24 A. Probably at the trenches, up there at Mojmilo. I don't know for
25 sure. But since this was an apartment building, it wasn't open space.
1 There was no need to mark the second line. Then the second line would be
2 where you would have to withdraw and take up positions when you're forced
4 Q. Very well. Witness, do you know where the various headquarters of
5 various battalions were?
6 A. Imagine, if children knew such things, what would be the purpose
7 of military secrets?
8 Q. Yes, but we know that children are intelligent and they know a lot
9 of things and they hear things --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is my last warning as far as
11 comments are concerned. You have to refrain from it, and I'll insist on
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first take the question.
16 Mr. Hadziabdic, the question to you was whether you knew about
17 various headquarters. Your answer was not a direct one. You said "if
18 children would know about it..." Do you have any knowledge on where the
19 headquarters of the various battalions were?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just speculate about that. It
21 would be guesswork. I don't know exactly.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 Q. Witness, thank you for your answer. If you might know, even
1 approximately, the locations of the battalions, could you tell that to
2 this Chamber to assist us? Could you do that?
3 A. I assume in Dobrinja II.
4 Q. Witness, let me try and be a little more precise. We know that a
5 brigade is divided up into battalions. Are you telling us that all the
6 battalions had their various headquarters in Dobrinja II, or were there
7 battalions that had headquarters in other locations or other parts of
8 Dobrinja, as far as you know?
9 A. I don't know where the areas of responsibilities of various
10 battalions were and, therefore, where their commands were. I've already
11 told you that I can only guess about it, so my guess is that it was in
12 Dobrinja II. That is my guess.
13 Q. Very well. Thank you for your answer.
14 Witness, are you aware of the existence of a tunnel which was dug
15 under the airstrip of Dobrinja, under the runway?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you please, if you know, tell us, where
18 was the entrance to this tunnel on the Dobrinja side?
19 A. The entrance was in C5.
20 Q. Witness, when you say "C5," what exactly do you mean?
21 A. A part of the neighbourhood. Now, whether it is the airport
22 settlement or Dobrinja, but anyway, it was a neighbourhood known among the
23 population as C5.
24 Q. Witness, did you yourself see the entrance to this tunnel?
25 A. I never entered that tunnel.
1 Q. Do you know whether this tunnel was guarded by military forces?
2 A. Probably it was. Either the military police or the civilian
3 police; I don't know. I'm not quite clear about that. But anyway it had
4 to be guarded to make sure that people didn't enter it randomly.
5 Q. You mentioned the military police, Witness. Do you know where the
6 military police was located in Dobrinja?
7 A. Probably in Dobrinja II.
8 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, do you know the name of a
9 person called Lucavic, I think, who was responsible for the military
11 A. I do know a director of Energopetrol, whose name is Edin
12 Loncarevic. But he was director or Energopetrol and I know him as such.
13 Q. Thank you for this clarification, Witness. This person,
14 Loncarevic, therefore, was he in charge of the military police at the time
15 in Dobrinja?
16 A. In what period of time?
17 Q. I think 1992, 1993, up to 1993, even the beginning of 1994.
18 A. Possibly. I don't know. I don't know anything officially.
19 Q. Do you know, Witness, whether there was any rivalry between the
20 army on the one hand and the military police on the other?
21 A. I don't know anything about that.
22 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.
23 Do you know, Witness, if the Territorial Defence was constituted
24 in Dobrinja at the beginning of the war, that is, in the months of April
25 and May, maybe June 1992? Do you know that?
1 A. Well, it was only normal for something to be organised because if
2 there hadn't been some sort of defence, I wouldn't be here to testify now.
3 Q. Very well. Witness, this defence, Territorial Defence, was it
4 supplied with uniforms?
5 A. At first. It depended on how each individual managed. But what
6 is quite certain, they had insignia. They did have insignia. People knew
7 whether they were soldiers or civilians.
8 Q. You're telling me that members of the Territorial Defence were
9 recognisable as soldiers. Is that right?
10 A. One could put it that way, that they were recognisable as soldiers
11 because they had insignia, and it was known that they were soldiers.
12 Q. Did they also carry weapons?
13 A. Who had weapons carried them.
14 Q. Thank you for your answer. So you're talking about insignia.
15 Could you tell us what kind of insignia they were that -- by which they
16 were recognised?
17 A. TO. TO, and the Bosnian coat of arms with berets, and on the
18 berets, they carried the coat of arms and the TO sign.
19 Q. Witness, were you familiar with a sniper unit which operated on
20 the side of the ABiH?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Witness, the berets that you mentioned a moment ago, were they
23 green berets? Was the colour green?
24 A. There were various colours. There were few of us with weapons.
25 So one day they would wear red ones, the next day yellow ones, so as to
1 give the impression that we were no -- more numerous so that they wouldn't
2 attack us. That was the tactics applied.
3 Q. Witness, regarding this football match, we understand that the
4 people playing were between 18 and 26 years of age. From what age did the
5 mobilisation order make it incumbent upon men to respond to the call-up?
6 A. Let me correct you first. Not necessarily between 18 and 26.
7 Whoever knew how to play, played. When you choose a team, you just chose
8 those who could play. As for people who had to respond to mobilization,
9 it applied from 18 to 19. You had to go for training. I don't know
10 exactly what the situation was that year. At first, it was only those who
11 had served in the JNA that went while there were weapons. And as the need
12 for more men arose, people were mobilised. So I don't know whether just
13 then they mobilised people of 18, young men of 18. So I'm talking of the
14 period of the month of June 1993.
15 Q. Witness, did you, yourself -- are you hearing me?
16 A. I can hear you now, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Witness, did you, yourself, ever carry weapons in
18 Sarajevo, in Dobrinja?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Witness, did you, yourself, ever take part, offer any kind of
21 assistance to the defenders, who were sometimes called "defenders of
23 A. Could you repeat your question? I didn't understand it quite.
24 Q. Very well. Did you in any way whatsoever, during the period we're
25 interested in, provide any kind of assistance to those who were known as
1 the defenders of Sarajevo, in this case, Dobrinja?
2 A. No military assistance or anything else. No assistance, except
3 for the normal assistance every human being would give another. But
4 anyway, I wasn't asked to do that.
5 Q. Are you telling me that everyone in such a situation assisted the
6 defenders of the city?
7 A. It depends what you mean by assistance. If my neighbour who is
8 not on the front line, he is there, and I have salt and he needs some salt
9 to make bread, of course I'll give him salt. Is that the kind of
10 assistance you're referring to? If he's thirsty and I have water and I
11 give him water, is that assistance? There was plenty of such assistance.
12 But if you mean assistance in the sense of me charging his clips and
13 helping him clean his rifle, I didn't provide any such assistance.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like
15 to show the witness a document which we received from the Prosecution,
16 which has not been translated, but I think there's no need for it to be
17 translated. It is 0038-015. If I may do so with your leave.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you can tell us -- you say there's no need for
19 translation. I'd rather see whether the Chamber agrees with you. Could
20 you tell us in the presence of the witness what the document is
21 approximately about.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. It's a list which I can
23 show you, Mr. President, of a certain number of patients who were admitted
24 to Dobrinja, and we see the dates, the date 1st June, 1993, which needs no
25 translation, names which don't need to be translated. Then initials "D"
1 which I assume doesn't require translation. It stands for "Dobrinja."
2 Then some numbers. Again -- and my question will relate to the numbers,
3 which again need no translation.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, please proceed.
5 THE REGISTRAR: D86.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] D86, sure.
7 [Interpretation] Has the witness got the document?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 Q. Witness, do you have the document in front of you?
10 A. Yes, I see it. Thank you.
11 Q. Witness, could you find your name on that list? And for the
12 assistance of the others, it is in the last third of the page, beginning
13 of the last third.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Have you found it, Mr. Hadziabdic?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness. Witness, next to your name, to the left,
19 there's a date, and that is the 1st of June, 1993, is it not? Is that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Witness, let us go to the right of this document. Let us forgot
23 the letter D, which is not of any use now, and let's go to the next
24 column, the last column to the right. In the line where your name is,
25 what do you find there, please?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. 1.655-O.
2 Q. Thank you. Witness, will you please look at the document that we
3 read a moment ago given to you by the Prosecution; that is, P2506B, and
4 the Serbian version of that document, please.
5 Do you have this document in front of you?
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're now
7 asking the witness questions about a document on which you indicated that
8 you would submit to us objections. Of course, this confuses --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- because if you would object into the admission of
11 evidence, then of course it might be difficult to ask him to use it during
12 his testimony. Could you please clarify your position in this respect.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be glad to. The problem
14 is the following, Mr. President: The numbers we have to the right are, in
15 fact, numbers --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's a practical explanation why you're
17 putting these questions to the witness --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm coming to it,
19 Mr. President. We have, on the right, protocol numbers, and we see that
20 the document shown by the Prosecution, there is no protocol number,
21 apparently. So what I wanted to ask the witness was whether he, himself,
22 can find this protocol number on this document. Because we find it quite
23 astonishing that we are given documents with protocol numbers and without
24 protocol numbers. So we would like this witness to confirm this.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine. But if you ask the witness to
1 testify on the other document and at the same time you'd object against
2 the document being admitted, what's, in your view, the way we should deal
3 with the document?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The following way: I would
5 like this witness to look at the document, and since he tells us that he
6 has an original - he told us that following by a question from Mr. Stamp -
7 let this witness tell us simply whether on that original we find the
8 presence of this protocol number. I think it would be useful for everyone
9 that we know --
10 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that you would like to have the
11 original presented to this Chamber as well? Otherwise, we cannot check.
12 And that, finally, that both the copy and the original will be part of the
13 proceedings? Do I understand you correctly? I mean, I'm just wondering,
14 if it would ever come to an appeals hearing and we have discussed at large
15 and there's a lot of testimony about documents which are not there finally
16 in the proceedings which will be presented to the Appeals Chamber, how
17 would you then expect an Appeals Chamber to understand what happened in
18 this courtroom?
19 So it's a matter of procedural law rather than whether there's a
20 good reason to ask questions. I do not object against that. But I'd
21 rather like to know what finally will be admitted, what will finally be
22 exhibits in this case, or not, specifically in view of these medical
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I wanted
25 to do was the following: I can say this in front of the witness. As he
1 has the original before him, and without tendering it necessarily, that
2 the witness look at the original and read for us the protocol number that
3 may be on it. And if he doesn't see that protocol number, he will simply
4 tell us that he doesn't find that protocol number. And I think that is
5 the clearest way of doing it. And we will see then how to proceed. If I
6 may be allowed to ask this witness to read on his original the protocol
7 number, if he can find it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I'll first ask Mr. Stamp what's the position of the
9 Prosecution in this respect. Because until now, when a document was not
10 tendered in evidence, that was because both parties agreed on the content.
11 And this was usually text. Text can be read out, and if everyone agrees
12 that the text on the document is read out, it's irrelevant whether -- what
13 kind of characters these were. It's about the text. And here it seems to
14 be about the content of a document as a whole.
15 Could you please, Mr. Stamp, give the position of the Prosecution
16 in this respect.
17 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. I would submit that the
18 document which is not intended to be received in evidence should not be
19 used in this way in terms of the entirety of the document.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. STAMP: I'm sorry. Perhaps what my friend could inquire of
22 the witness is whether or not the copy which we intend to tender to the
23 Court is identical to the original which he has brought. And then the
24 witness could refer to the copy which we propose to tender to the Court.
25 It would achieve what I think my friend is trying to achieve.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just confer for one moment.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber would first like to know at this very
4 moment, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, exactly your objection against the document
5 tendered by the Prosecution, since that's 2506B. You said you would make
6 a submission later. We would invite you to make it now and to tell us
7 whether it's still the wish of the Defence to have the original available
8 as well because that was indicated before the witness showed us that he
9 had a document brought with him.
10 Could you please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I could not do
12 this before the witness. I believe that we could maybe do it later, for
13 purely practical reasons.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No. Then I'll suggest that we would have to have a
15 break anyhow. That the witness perhaps starts already with his break.
16 Mr. Hadziabdic, we have a legal technical issue to be discussed.
17 So we'll perhaps do it when you're not there because it might influence
18 you one way or the other. So I'll ask you to leave the courtroom, guided
19 out by the usher. But I've one additional question to you. I noticed, at
20 least you said that you had the original document with you. Would you be
21 willing to give the original to the Court? Of course -- well, not at this
22 very moment. But would you be willing to, if it would assist the Court
23 for the proceedings to have the original in our possession?
24 Thank you very much for your willingness. You'll hear after the
25 break whether we'll need it or not.
1 Mr. Usher, could you please lead Mr. Hadziabdic out of the
2 courtroom. And we'll resume at, presumably, approximately 1.00. Might be
3 5 minutes later.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. In
7 fact, what I wanted to do in order to submit to you these difficulties
8 would have been to submit certain documents to the witness, but since I
9 will show these documents to the witness later, however, you wanted me to
10 talk to you now, I will then submit these documents now. So I propose to
11 show you these documents so that you, the Chamber, may know what it is all
12 about. These are excerpts and they refer to the hospital Dobrinja and to
13 see if -- the authenticity of these documents. So with your leave, I
14 would like to show you these documents now so that you may see what we are
15 talking about. May I have your permission?
16 Even if these documents are not admitted at a later stage.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are these documents known to the Prosecution?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] These are documents that we
19 wished to distribute. We have a sufficient number of documents for
20 everybody, but they stem from the Prosecution.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Did you indicate, as I requested you yesterday, to
22 the Prosecution that you would use them?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not yet, Mr. President. Not
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I asked the Defence yesterday to do --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, you're right.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- what kind of documents they are using. So we'll
3 not have a look at them at this very moment. Perhaps you could do it
4 after the break. But you first should show it to the Prosecution and to
5 make clear to them what kind of documents you're going to use.
6 But my question was about a different matter. My question was
7 about to give the objections against the document used -- to be tendered
8 -- at least we expect to be tendered by the Prosecution. That's Exhibit
9 2506B. What we noticed by now is that the stamp has not been translated.
10 I saw some other small parts. For example, under the address, there are a
11 few words missed which are not translated. I see that the date is 16.93,
12 which is translated as 1 June, 1993. I see a few differences. But apart
13 from the translation, or perhaps aspects of the translation we have not
14 noticed yet, are there other objections against the admission in evidence
15 of this document?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The
17 objections are not about the date, because even if it's a typo, because we
18 see 1.6.1993, I think everything understood that it's the 1st of June, and
19 of course the Defence is not going to object on that. But the problem is
20 the following: There is a stamp that was not translated, the stamp you
21 have seen myself. It may be I may have lost my temper a bit, but this
22 stamp clearly says that it's the military hospital of Dobrinja. On other
23 documents that I wanted to show, we also have the documents that come from
24 the same hospital which relate to similar problems. We also see stamps.
25 On those stamps, there is no mention of a military hospital. So we
1 suspect that it is not maybe necessarily the same hospital, or it is not
2 maybe necessarily the same hospital we think we are talking about.
3 And there is also another point which is very important. We were
4 always told that there were numbers, protocol numbers, given. You will
5 see, Mr. President, that in a document that I will show you like this from
6 afar, because this is a document that we will submit to the Prosecution
7 later on, we can see protocol numbers. They appear on these documents and
8 they are all in chronological order. I read 5, 6, 7, and so on. However,
9 in the lists that the Prosecution gave us, lists of names of wounded
10 people during this event, the protocols do not follow in a chronological
11 order, and the Defence does not understand how can it be that some
12 documents that can be pertinent to this incident are presented in a
13 chronological order in terms of the protocol numbers, whereas in other
14 cases there is no chronological order, and then in the medical documents,
15 that are the only documents that are given to us by the Prosecution, they
16 completely disappear. We do not use terms such as "manipulations," but we
17 must. We are forced to notice that there is not -- it's -- this
18 information is not always concurrent.
19 Some elements appear to be originals. Some documents seem to be
20 originals because they were written by hand, and we gladly believe that
21 this is the result of what had happened at the moment where these patients
22 were examined, were treated. And later on, patients who were treated
23 later on. But in the list that we have, we have also the ages of
24 patients. And all of a sudden, in some of the lists that we obtained, the
25 ages disappeared, whereas we see that most of these people were people who
1 were either mobilised, or if they were not mobilised, they were
2 mobilisable. They were in age to be drafted. So this is the reason for
3 which - and I will finish here - this is the reason why the Defence
4 requests once again that the Prosecution gives all the documents, the
5 originals, all the originals of these medical documents, so that everybody
6 in this Chamber and around this Chamber may be certain of the origin of
7 the documents and the authenticity of the protocols.
8 This is the request that we are formulating. I would have wanted
9 to hand the documents right now. They will be handed to you later on.
10 They might not have an immediate impact on the witness. You will know
11 why, because this is a global, general issue. And you know why now the
12 Defence is asking of your Chamber to render a decision which will help
13 that the Prosecution bring all the originals of these documents, the
14 protocols, the originals of these medical protocols that we are talking
15 about. And we thank you in advance.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that apart from giving grounds
17 for your objection, you also put a request to the Prosecution.
18 Mr. Stamp, since it's already a quarter to 1.00, I'd rather have a
19 break now, but of course I'll give you an opportunity to respond to --
20 unless you say I can do it in one minute or one minute and a half. But
21 you'd rather not do it.
22 MR. STAMP: I would prefer to take advantage of the break.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then have a break until 5 minutes past
25 May I remind you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that the time used in
1 cross-examination is already approximately the time used in
2 examination-in-chief. This is not to stop you immediately, but the
3 experience of the past taught me that I cannot leave it entirely in your
4 hands. So please be aware that at a certain moment, I'll say that the
5 time is over, after, of course, having consulted the other members of the
7 One other question for both parties: The Chamber is considering
8 whether it would be good to ask the witness to provide the original of
9 this document. I mean, if there is a better copy available, why not use
10 it? So this is not a general rule on whether we would always have to
11 obtain the originals. But if it's in this courtroom, this Chamber sees
12 hardly any reason why not, since especially the witness consented to it,
13 why not get the original. If the parties would have any observation in
14 that respect, we would like to hear from them after the break.
15 We'll have a break until 5 minutes past 1.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I'll first give you the opportunity to
20 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. I took the
21 opportunity at the break to have a look at the question raised by the
22 Court and the submission by my learned friend, and I confess that I'm
23 afraid that I cannot -- I do not understand the relevance of it to the
24 issue of the admissibility of this document which, to my understanding, is
25 what the Court asked about.
1 In respect to the admissibility of this document, it is conceded
2 that there are at least two areas which are not translated. That which
3 the Defence thought was important, they, as they are entitled to, did
4 cross-examine upon it and did have the witness read on to the record the
5 words which were not translated. And notwithstanding that a stamp ought
6 to have been translated, it is my submission that this does not
7 sufficiently detract from the usefulness of the document for the
8 Court to determine if the document is tendered, to establish, and again, I
9 repeat, the cross-examination is not over. If there is any area of the
10 document which the Defence feels ought to be translated to assist the
11 Court in its determination, they could inquire of it and have it read into
12 the record.
13 I cannot address the Court on what my learned friend has said
14 about other documents insofar as it might be relevant to the issue which
15 the Court raised and asked about in respect of this document marked
16 P2506B. Those documents are documents that are handed to the Defence by
17 the Prosecution and which we propose at a later time to call witnesses
18 about, and these witnesses are absolutely able to speak to the concerns of
19 the Defence in respect of these documents. I certainly do not think that
20 this witness, with regard to what his testimony has been so far, would be
21 able to speak about any of the matters raised by learned friend, and
22 certainly those matters raised were not responsive to the question asked
23 by the Court. If it please you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, does this cause any additional observation from
1 your side?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, I do not
3 understand how it is so that my colleague didn't understand what I said.
4 It is not only a problem with regards to translation, and we all
5 understood this, but it was more of a general problem that I wished to
6 raise. And at the end of this hearing, when the end of the
7 cross-examination of this witness, I will try to establish this.
8 Now I will ask some questions on some documents that are handed to
9 the Prosecution and we will submit these documents to the witness shortly.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll give our final decision on the admission into
14 evidence of this document at the end of the examination of the witness
15 but, at this moment, the Chamber sees no need to give a negative decision
16 in respect of this document.
17 Before resuming with the witness, I would have one or two --
18 perhaps first, a request for the parties. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I've seen
19 that sometimes you ask the witness to read a certain part, or I do
20 understand that you're going to ask the witness whether there's any number
21 on a document. Couldn't the parties agree upon that? I mean, if both
22 parties say that there's no number such as the number appearing at the end
23 of the list on the document, we don't have to ask the witness to check and
24 look at the back side as well. I mean, that's not something that is --
25 that's not an exercise that's better done by a witness than either by the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 parties or by the Court itself. So it would save us time, I think, if we
2 would not ask witnesses to do, to establish, what is obvious to everyone
3 what could be established by the parties easily themselves.
4 Then before resuming, I still -- we have taken into consideration,
5 Mr. Stamp, that you said that a decision on the 360-degrees photograph
6 could be delayed. We understood it that you are still willing to assist
7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin since the precise position of the 360-degrees photograph
8 seems to bother him, to assist him and to help him in order to find out.
9 At the same time, this Chamber thinks that a decision could be taken as
10 far as the admissibility of the 360-degrees photograph is concerned.
11 The reasons given by Mr. Piletta-Zanin not -- the additional
12 reasons, apart from I would say the standard reasons, are that the -- that
13 they have problems in accepting the answers of the witness where he
14 testified that he would have been hit by 1500 shrapnels. That was the
15 first one. And the second one was that -- let me just have a look. And
16 that he was one and-a-half metres away from the point of impact of the
17 explosive. We try to locate exactly where these answers were given. As
18 far as the shrapnel is concerned, the witness has testified that there
19 were thousands -- there might have been thousands of fragments of
20 shrapnels. He did not testify that he was hit by these thousands, neither
21 that he was hit by 1500. But it was Mr. Piletta-Zanin who, in
22 misrepresenting the testimony of the witness, said this at the beginning
23 of his cross-examination.
24 But apart from that, and also apart from whether the witness
25 testified one and a half metres - at least in the transcript it appears as
1 his testimony that it was 3 and a half metres - but I'm not sure about
2 whether you could deduce from the video a different thing, but we'll have
3 to check that. But this is all not relevant because the 360-degree
4 photograph has not its probative value primarily in order to give answers
5 to these doubts of the Prosecution as far as the truthfulness or the
6 correctness of the answers are concerned. It gives a static view. And to
7 that extent, it differs from the video, it gives a static view on the
8 surroundings. It gives a general impression on where buildings
9 approximately were located in relation to the football pitch and,
10 therefore, one couldn't say that the 360-degrees photograph is not
11 relevant, neither could it be said that it has no probative value. And
12 therefore under Rule 89(C), it can be admitted into evidence.
13 The Chamber further noted that, as far as our recollection goes,
14 that the matter of one and-a-half metres or would it have been 3
15 and-a-half metres have not been raised as such during cross-examination.
16 The Chamber notes this because it's the -- if you are not satisfied by an
17 answer of the witness, the first thing the party should do in order to
18 create no misunderstandings is to cross-examine the witness on those
20 So therefore, the 360-degree photograph as shown to Mr. Fazlic is
21 admitted into evidence.
22 Then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think we could resume the
23 cross-examination of the witness. May I remind you that for a witness who
24 was 12 years old at the time when it happened, I'll not allow any cynical
25 or aggressive approach.
1 Could the usher please bring in the witness.
2 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you know that
4 your remarks are always welcome.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadziabdic, you had to wait for a few minutes
6 longer. We apologise for that, but Mr. Piletta-Zanin will now resume his
7 cross-examination. Please be seated.
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Witness, can you hear me now?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would you please tell us, to the best of your recollection, how
13 many soldiers there were during this football match?
14 A. Soldiers in what capacity?
15 Q. Just soldiers.
16 A. You mean people registered as members of the army or soldiers on
18 Q. Just soldiers.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you tell us whether at this football
20 match you saw any people wearing military uniforms, and how many?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some of them were in uniform,
22 conditionally speaking, in uniform, whereas others - I'm talking about
23 soldiers - the others were without uniform. But I know from personal
24 knowledge that they were members of the army.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an indication on how many people
1 with either whole or partly uniforms were there, and how many people were
2 there who you knew were soldiers but were not recognisable as such at that
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe about a third to one-half, but
5 less than half. Between one third to less than one-half. I don't know
6 exactly. I can't remember the exact number of people who were in uniform
7 of one kind or another and those without uniform. I can't remember
8 exactly, but I'm talking about the number of soldiers.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And this includes both categories, those who
10 were either wearing --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, with and without.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. And if the witness doesn't
14 understand the question properly and if he asks for clarification, would
15 you please give it to him next time.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll do so gladly,
17 Mr. President.
18 Q. Witness, at the time of the incident, how many players were there
19 on the pitch who were soldiers?
20 A. I don't know exactly how many there were players in all.
21 Q. Very well. Thank you for your answer.
22 Witness, are you aware of the existence of a restaurant called
23 Sunca at Dobrinja, Sunca or "Sun"?
24 A. I know of the mini market, like grocery store, that before the war
25 was called Sunca. I'm not aware of any restaurant by that name.
1 Q. Do you know, Witness, whether at the time of the war there was a
2 prison there or a special camp?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, I'm going to show you some
5 documents now. I'll begin with a document with the number D87. I think
6 that's the right number.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, please. Let me
8 explain that the Prosecution has already received this document.
9 Mr. President, I'm distributing it in the condition in which we
10 have received it, so I'll make no comment as to the clarity or the
12 Q. Witness, do you have this document before you?
13 A. I see it, but not clear.
14 Q. Yes. Do you recognise among the names to the left people that you
15 may know?
16 A. Yes, Aganspahic Rusmir, I know him.
17 Q. Would you tell me in what line that person appears, so that we can
18 all find him.
19 A. From the number to the far right, 0026-7853, the first name after
20 that. Can you see it?
21 Q. Yes, quite. But I don't know -- yes, quite. But I don't know if
22 everyone has seen it.
23 Witness, opposite that number, would you read what is found next
24 to the number 17.
25 A. Sex: Male.
1 Q. Very well. What I wanted was before the three letters, G-O-D.
2 What does that mean?
3 A. It means years, age. Age: 17.
4 Q. Fine. So that means that this person was 17 when he was wounded.
5 Is that right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 Another list will come soon but let us continue with this same
9 name. Further up, we have another number on the far right. Could you
10 read it out for us, please.
11 If I read it, 1633, is that what you are seeing? Or maybe 1638?
12 A. You mean the name above this one, 16 --
13 Q. No, sorry. 1639 is the number I'm reading. Is that right?
14 A. You mean this number?
15 Q. Yes. That's right.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What is the number? Let us try it differently. Witness, the
18 initials BR --
19 A. It is very unclear.
20 Q. Yes, I know that. The initials BR, does that mean "number"?
21 A. Yes, number. Fine.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness.
23 A. Probably it means number.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 Let us now, please, go on to Document D88, which the usher will be
1 kind enough to give you.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I wish to outline again that
3 the Prosecution has been handed these documents, and they come from the
4 Prosecution anyway.
5 Q. Witness, do you know the person whose name appears on this
6 document? Or rather, the name has been struck, to the left, on top.
7 A. I find it very difficult to read this. I think I can only read
8 the name, and the name of the parent. First name.
9 Q. Very well, Witness. Could you read the date, the two dates that
10 we see, and confirm whether it is the 12th of July, 1993, and the 17th of
11 July, 1993? Are those two dates correct as I am reading them?
12 A. The 17th of July, 1993 is quite clear to me. And this is probably
13 the 12th of July, 1993.
14 Q. Very well. Thank you.
15 Would you now read what we see very clearly on the stamp, which is
16 on the left-hand side of the signature of the doctor, and that is
17 Dr. Dajir, I think. Could you read what you see on that stamp?
18 A. "General Hospital, Sarajevo." "General Hospital, Sarajevo," and
19 in the middle, it says "Dobrinja" with "P.O." That's what I see.
20 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
21 I shall now show you another document. We will soon come to the
22 end of this exercise. It is number 89. And after that, we will also need
23 number 90, so if it could be given to the usher as well.
24 Witness, you have in front of you a piece of paper which is mostly
25 in handwriting, and we can read "mortus ad latus" on it. Do you have the
1 document in front of you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Could you please read the fifth line in the centre of
4 the left part of the document, the name of Mr. Damir Trebo.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Witness, do you see on this document a number on the left-hand
7 side, number 1739, next to the name of Mr. Trebo Damir?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Do you know this gentleman, Mr. Damir Trebo?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. Thank you. One more document, please, for the witness.
12 A. Not by name. But I know the one under him. He was my friend.
13 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.
14 THE REGISTRAR: D90.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] D90. Sorry.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, do you have the document in front of
18 A. I see it.
19 Q. Do you see the fourth name from the bottom of that document? Does
20 it have the same references?
21 A. From the bottom. Trebo Damir.
22 Q. Yes, quite. Quite. From the bottom of the page. You find the
23 particulars of this gentleman, Mr. Damir Trebo?
24 A. Just a moment, please.
25 Q. Yes, please, take your time.
1 A. Yes. I see both the documents very clearly now.
2 Q. I'm talking only about this second document that you have just
3 received. Will you please read what you find next to the abbreviation for
4 number that is "Br" in Serb.
5 A. 1699-1.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Allow me to confer with my
7 colleague, Mr. President.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence has no further
10 questions. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the witness?
13 MR. STAMP: I have no re-examination, if it pleases you. Maybe
14 one question.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
16 MR. STAMP: Having thought about it, no questions. I was going to
17 ask him if he was the author of these documents, but I don't think it is
18 necessary. No questions.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Hadziabdic, we saw that you brought a document, and I think
21 you said in between that this was the original of the document that has
22 been shown to you and which has number P2506B on it. Did you compare the
23 two documents, the one you brought and the one presented to you?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did superficially.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see any differences?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please, Madam Registrar, if the P2506B
4 would be available, would it please be given to the witness again.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing, except for this number
6 here, 0067-887, and where the stamp is, it's unclear. You can't see the
7 surgeon --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is the original more clear?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed. Much clearer. Much
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you, I asked you before, but the
14 Court would perhaps, especially because you said the stamp is much clearer
15 on the original you've brought, the Court would very much like to keep the
16 copy you brought with you for the record of the Court. I don't know
17 whether you need any receipt for that or whether you would like to have
18 another copy made which indicates that the copy we provided you then with
19 is a true copy of the original you gave us. If you are in need of that,
20 please let us know or let those of the Victims and Witness Unit know so
21 that we could prepare a copy for you if you would like to keep one.
22 Mr. Usher -- but, let me just first ask you whether you need a
23 copy to take home.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I might perhaps need it in my life,
25 so I'm willing to give the Court the original, but you provide me with a
1 certified copy, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll provide you with a certified copy. Would
3 you then please give the -- both the original and the copy provided to
4 you, P2506B, to the usher.
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could we please have a look at the
7 document brought by the witness.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Do any of the parties wish to inspect the document
10 just given by the witness? Mr. Usher --
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, we would like that very
12 much, Mr. President, and thank you in advance.
13 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
15 Mr. President.
16 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We have not, of course not, pre-numbered the
18 evidence, and the Chamber is not sure whether what kind of character
19 should be attached to it. So the copy of the -- the copy the witness
20 brought, which seems to be exactly the same as P Exhibit 2506B is on the
21 order of the Court admitted into evidence. And the number will be
22 communicated to the parties at a later stage.
23 Before, and not after, I've asked the booth whether we could deal
24 with the documents for perhaps a couple minutes after the witness left the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your cooperation. I would
3 like to ask the usher to guide the witness out of the courtroom, but I
4 first would like to thank you very much for coming, Mr. Hadziabdic. It's
5 a long way for you, I'm aware of that. We are also aware that the events
6 you testified about happened when you were still a very young boy, and I
7 also can imagine that the circumstances under which you have grown up
8 might have influenced your life. We are aware of that, and I hope that
9 you understand that the answers you've given to the questions of the
10 parties and the questions of the Bench are important for us because we
11 have to take decisions, and the information given by those who were
12 present during these days and at that places are very much assisting us.
13 So I would like to thank you very much and wish you a safe trip home
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And I'll take care that you'll receive a certified
17 copy as soon -- may I ask, Madam Registrar, to take care, because I expect
18 that the witness will leave the Netherlands soon, that a certified copy
19 will be made immediately so that he can perhaps through the Victims and
20 Witness Unit be provided with a certified copy of the document. Yes. If
21 possible, even a coloured copy, because there are different colours on
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll then deal with the other documents. Could
25 you please guide us, Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2506B, specialist's report, diagnosis,
2 from Dobrinja Hospital. P2506B.1, English translation.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we first stop here.
4 Mr. Stamp, the document is not fully translated, especially the
5 stamp is not translated, and it seems that might be a relevant part of the
6 document. I think the Chamber would, as usual, require the Prosecution to
7 give a full translation, especially here where the stamp is considered as
8 of importance by the Defence. So perhaps we could do it that we admitted
9 the document in evidence provisionally under the condition that, on short
10 notice, a full translation will be provided. And if the translation is
11 provided and if there are any questions to it, of course the Defence will
12 have an opportunity to make whatever observations in that respect before
13 we finally admit it into evidence. Yes?
14 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, we have some other documents.
16 THE REGISTRAR: D86, document bearing ERN number 0038-0015, list
17 of names. D87, document bearing two ERN numbers, the first being
18 0038-0026; the second, 0026-7853. D88, document bearing ERN number
19 0215-6335. Exhibit D89, document bearing ERN number 0215-5961. Exhibit
20 D90, document bearing ERN number 0215-6203.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are no objections. We have had a short
22 explanation of what the relevance of these documents would be. I noticed
23 that the only testimony about these documents is that the witness read
24 parts of the documents, which, of course, is not necessary, I would say.
25 You could call any witness and ask him whether he could read what is on a
1 document. I would rather prefer that if these documents are considered to
2 be relevant for the case of one of the parties, I assume that it's
3 relevant for the case of the Defence, that then the parties agree upon
4 whether line 7 contains certain words or not. It's really a waste of time
5 to ask -- you could have asked any journalist or military expert to do the
6 same. And I even may reveal to you that this Chamber is to some extent
7 able of reading it, so I would like to invite the parties to solve these
8 problems out of Court. Of course, there should be a way of introducing
9 relevant documents to the Court but it's not necessary to read specific
10 lines and then say thank you for reading it to us.
11 Then this ends the Court session of today. Are there any
12 additional observations to be made at this moment? Perhaps, in view of
13 next week? If so -- if there's any observation to be made at this very
15 MR. STAMP: Just one.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
17 MR. STAMP: If I may through the Court indicate that the witness
18 Edin Suljic, who is the next witness to be called -- there were, I think,
19 four documents listed to be adduced through him.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see five on the list. But I don't know
21 whether it's the last list or not. I get sometimes a bit -- I have 2286,
22 2365, 2366, 3061, and 2264. And that's the list of 2nd of April. But
23 perhaps I disregarded the... I've got the 4th of April.
24 The next list, there are only three. The list of the 4th of April
25 indicates three numbers.
1 MR. STAMP: Is it the position of the Court that it refers to
2 three documents?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the former one, the list of the 2nd of April,
4 showed five, and the list of the 4th of April shows three, yes.
5 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much. I wasn't aware that the Court
6 assistant had been -- I was not aware of the level of efficiency. Of
7 course, I was aware that she had been efficient. I have nothing to add.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have absolutely nothing to
10 add to that, Mr. President. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then, I wish everyone a good weekend. I
12 especially thank the interpreters and those who are technically assisting
13 us for enabling us to finalise for this week, which took some extra time.
14 We'll adjourn, and we'll adjourn until next Monday at 9.00 in this
15 same courtroom.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
17 1.56 p.m., to be reconvened on
18 Monday, the 8th day of April, 2002,
19 at 9.00 a.m.