1 Wednesday 10 April 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar,
6 would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, did I understand you correctly that you wanted
11 to address the Chamber this morning?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With your leave, of
14 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, go ahead.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
16 Defence wanted to submit to the Registry this morning a motion based on
17 the decision you issued on the 8th of April 2002. The decision was that
18 every time there is a problem involving the quality of a document. We
19 have informed the Prosecution about this move but we have been unable to
20 submit this motion officially to the Registry with the appropriate stamps.
21 We will do so during the first break because the personnel in charge of
22 these tasks were still not at work.
23 Mr. President, we wanted to present the views of the
24 Defence before the Chamber for the following reasons: We know that this
25 week we are not sitting on Friday. The documents in question relate to
1 the witness who will be here tomorrow or on Monday at the latest and if
2 we fail to receive from the Prosecution a clear view, a clear position, I
3 hope that it will be clearer than some of the documents because sometimes
4 we can't see anything. We will be unable to proceed. We will pinpoint
5 the problem. We have been discussing this for some time now. But we
6 could like the Chamber to request from the Prosecution all of the
7 documents that we specified, for these documents to be submitted to us
8 as quickly as possible. These documents, I believe that we can show them
9 to you, Mr. President, but when we received such documents from the
10 Prosecution, I believe it is not necessary for me to make any lengthy
11 comments. I can show you other documents too, which, unlike these have
12 been copied so many times that they look as if three pages have been
13 copied onto the same page. You have the text from the left to the
14 right, from the right to the left, and we are absolutely unable to read
15 anything. It is a massacre. When I say that it is a massacre, I want to
16 say that this is in fact a result of a hunt for the documents on the part
17 of the Defence. And I want to know what we are talking about, what we
18 are dealing with because we cannot do anything with such documents, Mr.
19 President. That is why we would like the Prosecution to give us for all
20 the numbers -- documents under the numbers that were listed yesterday, we
21 informed them yesterday, last night for them documents to provide us with
22 the clear and legible copies which would enable both the Trial Chamber
23 and the Defence to work properly. So these are all the documents that
24 are at their disposal.
25 The last thing I wanted to say is that it is quite clear that
1 nothing can be done about it. There are some documents that are more
2 subtle, so to speak, where only one or two lines may be legible. We have
3 seen it yesterday. A line was not translated and that line is important.
4 That means that the person who actually wrote the document was, in fact, a
5 member of a military institution, a military institution that His
6 Excellency General Galic was fighting against. These documents were
7 drafted in 1995 at the time when the hostilities were ongoing. Without
8 this part, the text has a totally different impact, and for us, it is
9 important to get the full information.
10 For instance, Mr. President, the very fact that these
11 documents may be compared to -- so that we can see whether everything has
12 been translated, it takes quite a lot of time for us. It is a waste of
13 time and effort for us. We cannot do so for every witness and before
14 every hearing, we cannot spend three or four hours checking whether all
15 the documents have been translated properly, whether the two versions
16 correspond and so on and so forth.
17 It seems that the goal is to exhaust the Defence, but we believe
18 that our forces, our strengths would be much better -- put to much better
19 use if we can address the real issues instead of going through the
20 documents unnecessarily.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this is the daily occurrence of
22 the Defence, complaining about documents, holding them up, not giving ERN
23 numbers. It should be addressed in a way that the Trial Chamber has
24 required, that is, the first port of call should be the Prosecution.
25 Instead of taking up court time, my friend should first approach us with
1 the ERN numbers of the documents of which he complains, and we will do our
2 best to overcome the problem. If the documents are ones which the
3 Prosecution does not intend to tender but rather documents which have been
4 disclosed to the Defence under reciprocal disclosure, then if my friend
5 cannot achieve satisfaction with the Prosecution in terms of photocopies,
6 of course, he can inspect the document that the Prosecution possesses
7 pursuant to Rule 66(B).
8 Mr. President, I am reluctant to take any further time on
9 this issue for the part of the Prosecution until my friend has spoken to
10 us outside the sitting hours of the Trial Chamber and we see what we can
11 achieve quietly by sitting down, looking at the documents, and trying to
12 sort out whatever his problem is.
13 Mr. President, there is another matter I would seek to
14 raise briefly, when it is convenient to the Court. It is something which
15 should take no more than five minutes. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me first try to deal with the documents.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If I may give these documents
18 to the usher so that they can be distributed.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Before doing that, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when did
20 you communicate with the Prosecution the ERN numbers that are in your
21 determination de la defense a redaction a la problematique des pieces
22 illisibles? When did you give these ERN numbers to the Prosecution with
23 a request to provide you with better copies?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Certainly, yesterday. It was not
25 the first time. I will check.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it seems that
3 we have this letter from the month of July which was given to us sometime
4 ago, or shown to us. I am not quite sure whether some of the these
5 documents are listed there in the July letter because we did not
6 communicate the whole history background of the case to the Prosecution.
7 We have been checking the medical documents, however, all the time. That
8 is not the task of the Defence, however. I think -- I am not sure,
9 though, that in July, 2001, we pointed out that special attention should
10 be paid to the medical documents. Perhaps some of these documents are
11 listed therein. I did not have enough time to check that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...the
13 Defence has given these numbers to you yesterday.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the only ERN numbers I am
15 aware of that Defence gave to us yesterday were the numbers in relation
16 to the complaint made yesterday in court, in the Trial Chamber, yesterday
17 afternoon, and you indicated that you wished us to pursue that issue in
18 writing, which we would be happy to do and we are doing. I had assumed
19 that Mr. Piletta-Zanin this morning was raising a separate issue. But
20 again, perhaps the simple way to deal with this is for us to meet during
21 the morning during one of the breaks and we can look at one of the
22 documents and very quickly arrive at some sort of resolution or at least a
23 point of understanding about it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we received
1 from the Prosecution a fax on Tuesday at 2151 hours indicating that the
2 order of the witnesses for the week from the 10th of April onwards, and
3 the documents listed for each of these witnesses, we responded almost
4 immediately, that means, last night. I don't have a copy of the fax, but
5 I personally wrote a memo that I sent personally to Mr. Ierace and it was
6 faxed last night at around 2300 hours, which means after we received this
7 fax we reacted immediately, and an hour after sending his fax, Mr. Ierace
8 received all the numbers. Because as a professional courtesy, we sent him
9 copies of the documents before sharing this with you. So they had all
10 this last night since 2300 hours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... at 11 at night.
12 This illustrates how hardworking the Defence is. And I think we should
13 give at least a couple of hours to the Prosecution to see what they can do
14 about it.
15 Mr. Ierace, is there any of the numbers indicated in this
16 letter which you would like to present before the first break?
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you mean the letter that --
18 oh, I see, the letter that was sent on Tuesday. Do you mean whether we
19 intend to tender any of those documents in the Tuesday letter?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is not a letter. It reads in
21 French: "Determination de la defense a redaction a la problematique des
22 pieces illisibles." That is where we find specific ERN numbers. I think
23 it is mainly about Exhibits 3282 and 1517, and I think they are in
24 relation with the witnesses Teslaman, Grebic and Mehonjic.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the first witness this morning
1 is Ms. Menzilovic and none of those documents relate to her.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Just so I can hand a copy to
4 Mr. Ierace. It is my original so please do not write on it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: There is an invitation of Mr. Ierace to meet
6 during the first break and to discuss the matter. And if you would like
7 to give the copies already to Mr. Ierace, I think he will be glad to
8 receive them at this very moment. So please, Mr. --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can give you the
10 copies of the documents attached to this just to show you how difficult
11 it is to work.
12 Mr. Usher, please, these are the copies for the Chamber,
13 because you will see how difficult it is to work if you don't have the
14 appropriate data and information.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand how difficult it is. I think
16 the Chamber will be glad to look at them once the parties have met
17 and have not been able to solve the problem as a whole or in part.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Mr. Usher, would you please just
19 bring me back the documents.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You have another issue you would like to...
21 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. As I indicated
22 earlier, we proposed to call Robert Donia, an expert. We have in mind the
23 22nd of April. As I understand it, the following day, Tuesday the 23rd,
24 is a day that we are not sitting. The usual rule of the cross-examination
25 taking as long as the examination-in-chief would impact rather unfairly on
1 the Defence if, as I anticipate, his evidence in chief is something like
2 ten minutes, in other words, he walks into court. On the other hand, we
3 need to have some idea of the period of cross-examination that will be
4 allowed so that we can arrange sensibly for him to either give evidence on
5 the 22nd or the 24th and so on, since he is travelling a consider distance
6 to be here and the following day is not a sitting day. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could the Defence inform the
8 Chamber, say within one or two days, how much time you would need to
9 cross-examine Mr. Donia. An expert report will be presented and briefly
10 examined in chief, so far as I understand.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful if we can have
12 that information for some stage tomorrow because of the travel
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I
15 understand the desire of the Prosecution to be given an answer fairly
16 quickly because, after all, it is also the desire of the Defence to be
17 provided with information fairly quickly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we will hear from you before tomorrow, if
19 possible. Then, Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to call the next
21 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, and that is Ms. Menzilovic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I still have one question, and I'm dealing with it
23 this very moment in open court. There is a request for protective
24 measures we discussed yesterday, and we asked some additional information
25 to Mr. Mundis. I just remind you that we need to receive that information
1 because --- before we can give a decision. Yes. Please proceed.
2 Mr. Usher, would you please escort into the courtroom the next
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Ierace has
7 reminded us just how important it is to be given the information
8 promptly. I would like to ask Mr. Ierace to answer a question that is
9 very important for the Defence and that is how and why -- how and why the
10 documents tendered a day ago, how they were scratched out. I think that
11 we need this answer very quickly because all the other issues pertaining
12 to the medical documents hinge on this answer. I would like Mr. Ierace to
13 give us a clear answer as to why all the documents that were tendered to
14 the Chamber a few days ago, why they were, in our view, tampered with. If
15 the Prosecution doesn't know that, perhaps they can tell us so we don't
16 waste any more time
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think that it would be better until -- unless Mr.
18 Ierace says that he would like to respond immediately, that the Chamber
19 will have the opportunity during the break to see what additional
20 information we think should be given or should not be given, since the
21 documents have not been admitted in evidence yesterday and of course we do
22 not know what the Prosecution intends to do because we said that, without
23 authentication, we couldn't accept them, whether there will be a moment
24 from the Prosecution or the Defence to give any additional information in
25 relation to that. May I just, before the witness is standing, may I just
1 make one observation. The issue on the documents we dealt with this
2 morning, could have dealt with in approximately half of the time easily,
3 without losing any important aspect of the problem.
4 Yes, so I now go and ask my --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't -- we
6 wouldn't have wasted this time, had the documents been cleared.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We all know that and we also all know this last
8 remark took again time which was not necessary to deal with the issue. I
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Menzilovic, can you hear me in a language you
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes
13 JUDGE ORIE: First, I want to apologise. You were brought into
14 the courtroom and I didn't even say welcome, and we are still dealing
15 with a procedural issue. I hope you will understand this.
16 Ms. Menzilovic, before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of
17 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you
18 will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and the
19 text of this declaration is given now to you by the usher and I invite you
20 to make that declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
22 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Ms.
24 Menzilovic. The order in this court is that first questions will be put
25 to you by counsel for the Prosecution, that is Mr. Ierace, then by counsel
1 for the Defence, who is sitting on your left-hand side, and sometimes the
2 Judges have additional questions as well.
3 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
4 WITNESS: RASEMA MENZILOVIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Examined by Mr. Ierace:
7 Q. Is your name Rasema Menzilovic?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Have you lived in Sarajevo since 1978, approximately?
10 A. Yes, I have.
11 Q. Are you married and do you have two children?
12 A. Yes, I am married and I have two children.
13 Q. During the war between 1992 and 1995, was your husband living with
15 A. No.
16 Q. Were your two children born in 1974 and 1980?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. During the war, did you also look after another child who was born
19 in 1987?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you do that because the child's mother had died?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Whereabouts did you live in Sarajevo during the war?
24 A. In Brijesce Street and now --
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, the witness
1 didn't speak out very clearly the name of the street now.
2 MR. IERACE:
3 Q. Would you please repeat the name of the street, and perhaps you
4 could move closer to the microphones when you do so.
5 A. I lived in Brijesce in Cikma Brdo Street, number 10, and now it is
6 the Alisma Street. It's called Alisma Street.
7 Q. Did you always have electricity to your house during the war?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you sometimes have to collect wood to provide fire for --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- cooking. Where did you collect the wood?
12 A. Wherever I could find it. We would go -- we would go even
13 further. We would go all the way to Zuc and sometimes even closer. I was
14 also able to get something for my own house.
15 Q. Did you have running water to your house throughout the war?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Where did you obtain water during those years?
18 A. From the source. It wasn't very far from there, but it was
19 dangerous to cross the street and actually there was not -- no more water
20 in that well or that source.
21 Q. During the war in Sarajevo, on what side of the confrontation
22 lines did you live, in other words, on the side controlled by the Bosnian
23 government or on the other side?
24 A. I don't know if I understood your question correctly.
25 Q. I will repeat the question. I will make it a little simpler.
1 During the war, was your house on the side defended by the -- or
2 controlled by the Bosnian government or on the side controlled by the
4 A. My house was exposed in the area that was under the control of the
6 Q. How far was your house, approximately, from the front line?
7 A. Well I don't really know exactly, but maybe 500 metres as the crow
8 flies. Maybe less.
9 Q. And do you mean that the Serb army was on the other side of the
10 confrontation line from where you lived?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you ventured from your home to collect wood or water, were
13 you ever shot at?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was that when you were collecting wood?
16 A. When I was collecting wood, yes.
17 Q. And also when you were collecting water?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you have a preferred time to leave the house to do those
20 things, nighttime or daytime?
21 A. I didn't understand your question. What did you mean exactly?
22 Q. Did you tend to collect wood and water at nighttime or in daytime,
23 in daytime?
24 A. We would go at night and during the day as well to collect water.
25 For the water, mainly during the night actually, but for the wood, we
1 would also go mainly during the day.
2 Q. When you did those things, did you notice other people also
3 collecting wood and water?
4 A. Yes. I would always go accompanied by someone and never went
6 Q. Why was that?
7 A. Well, because I wanted to have somebody with me just in case
8 something happens.
9 Q. Something happened like what?
10 A. Let's say if I were to be wounded, so that somebody can let my
11 children know. I was alone. I was living alone with my children. I
12 didn't dare go alone.
13 Q. When you noticed other people also collecting wood and finding
14 water, were they mostly men or women or children or what?
15 A. We were mainly women. There were also men but they were older
16 men. But they were mainly women, actually.
17 Q. Did you ever see children accompanying the women?
18 A. Yes, to collect water because they were able then to help carry
19 the water. My children also went along.
20 Q. You said there was a well where you would collect water from. How
21 far was the well from your house approximately?
22 A. I don't know exactly, but maybe 50 metres from my house, maybe
23 more, maybe less. I am not so sure about the distance, but it was not
24 very far.
25 Q. In order for you to get to the well from your house, did you have
1 to cross a road?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was the name of that road?
4 A. I don't know. I think that it was Brijesce Brdo Cikma. That was
5 the former name and now it is called the Bulbulistan.
6 Q. How far was the road approximately from your house?
7 A. Well, maybe 20 metres from there. Not more than 25 metres. Maybe
8 30, but at the most. I never really measured the distance.
9 Q. I imagine that you were leaving your house and going to that well.
10 After you crossed the road, would you continue on level ground or would
11 you climb up or would you go down?
12 A. No, I don't know what you think -- the way you mean it exactly. I
13 didn't understand your question exactly.
14 Q. Once you crossed the road on the way to the well, would you then
15 go downhill or continue on level ground, or have to climb up a hill to get
16 to the well?
17 A. When we would go to collect water, we would go downhill and we
18 would have to either run or go very fast. But when we would bring the
19 water back, we would have to go uphill and we would have to go really
20 quickly. We would have to hurry and sometimes we even had to run.
21 Q. When you went to the well to collect water, what did you take with
22 you to put the water in?
23 A. I always carried canisters, 10-litre canisters, so two in each
24 hand, meaning that I had 20 litres with me.
25 Q. Incidently, what is your date of birth?
1 A. January 17th, 1953.
2 Q. So in 1993, you were age 40; is that correct?
3 A. Yes. I didn't really count the years, but I think so.
4 Q. You told us that you would carry the water in two 10-litre
5 canisters. You have also told us that on the way back to the house,
6 initially, you would carry it uphill. Along the route between your house
7 and the well, were there any spots which were exposed to shooting from the
8 other side of the front line?
9 A. From the side of the field, actually. That was the only way.
10 From the other side, nobody ever shot at us. Nobody could see us.
11 Q. Was there a particular area on the side of the front line
12 controlled by the Bosnian-Serb army that you could see as you made your
13 way along that route?
14 A. I was only able to see the field along that road. It was easy to
15 see it clearly, but I was not able to see on the other side.
16 Q. When you say "field," what is the -- does that field have a
17 particular name? I think I heard you say the word "polje." Is that
19 A. It is called "polje." It is a field. "Polje" means field in
20 B/C/S. But we call it also Bacici, but I know it is Polje.
21 Q. So when you mention field, you in fact mean an area known as
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What was the most dangerous part of that route between your house
25 and the well?
1 A. Further from my house, on the left-hand side, it was exposed. We
2 always had to go between the houses. But we had to cross the road and
3 this is where they could see us.
4 Q. On the way back to the house, when you crossed the road, of
5 course, you were carrying 20 litres of water; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So you could not move as fast, I suppose, when you were carrying
8 the water?
9 A. Not always fast, but as fast as I could at the time, of course. I
10 was faster than today.
11 Q. During those years when you crossed that road coming to or from
12 the well, were you ever with anyone who was shot?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How many times did that happen?
15 A. The first time it happened, I went to collect water, it was also
16 in 1991. And Haska Dudevic was also going to collect water. Her actually
17 full name is Hasiba. And she was hit directly.
18 Q. Let me stop you there. I think you said that was in 1991. Were
19 there any incidents in 1992?
20 A. No. I said that Haska was wounded in 1993. That's what I saw in
21 the month of July. That was the first event. That was the first time.
22 And maybe I made a mistake when I said 1991.
23 Q. All right. In that case, please continue in relation to what
24 happened to Haska.
25 A. She was hit in such a way that she fell down. We were also two
1 women accompanying her and we tried to help her. She had to lie there for
2 a long time. We couldn't bring her to the hospital right away because
3 there was shooting, and we stayed there for a long time. We were waiting
4 for the Civil Defence and they arrived. And she remained an invalid; she
5 was incapacitated at 100 per cent today and it was actually the first time
6 that I saw something like that.
7 Q. At the time she was shot, did you hear the sound of the shot?
8 A. Yes, I was able to hear the shot.
9 Q. From what direction did you hear that sound come?
10 A. As we went towards the water, polje was there and we could see the
11 place called depot. I think it is still called depot today.
12 Q. And from what direction did you hear the sound of the shot?
13 A. Also from the direction of Polje.
14 Q. Now, when you say "depot" --
15 A. From the other side of the road. How do you want me to say it to
17 Q. Please do.
18 A. I always heard a sound coming from the other side of the road,
19 from the direction of Polje.
20 Q. When you say "depot," do you mean a train depot?
21 A. I really don't know. I never asked around to find out the exact
22 name of that place. I know it is called the depot and also I know that
23 the railroad tracks crossed that section.
24 Q. At the time that Haska was shot, did you see any soldiers or
25 adults carrying arms near you or near her?
1 A. No, not in our vicinity. I never really saw that, believe me.
2 There weren't any.
3 Q. How old was she approximately when she was shot?
4 A. I don't really know. I think that she was born in 1948, but I am
5 not quite certain of this so I don't really know how old she was.
6 Q. What type of clothing was she wearing that day?
7 A. Us women, we mainly wore a skirt. Maybe some younger women would
8 wear trousers, but for us, we mainly wore skirts.
9 Q. Approximately what time of day was it that she was shot?
10 A. Well, I don't know exactly. Maybe around noon. It was very hot,
11 that I know. For the rest, I don't know.
12 Q. Was it raining or not raining?
13 A. No. The sun was very bright that day.
14 Q. All right. Now, that was in July, 1993. When was the next time
15 that you were with someone when they were shot when crossing that road?
16 A. The next incident occurred while I was with Kundo Ramiza, and she
17 was hit at that time.
18 Q. Can you tell us her name again, please. I think you said "Kundo."
19 What was her first name or what is her first name?
20 A. Ramiza Kundo.
21 Q. When was she shot?
22 A. She was shot at the beginning of November of 1993.
23 Q. Did she have containers of water with her at the time that she was
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you hear the sound of the shot?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where did that sound appear to come from, which direction?
4 A. It was always from the direction of Polje since from the other
5 side, as I have already said, nobody could ever see us. We were always
6 visible only from Polje.
7 Q. Approximately what time of day was it that she was shot?
8 A. Well, it was somewhere in the afternoon. It was the month of
9 November. It was cold. It was a cloudy day, but we could see that -- it
10 was also possible to see that we were women.
11 Q. Was there anyone at all near you and her at the time that she was
13 A. At the time, no, nobody else aside from the two of us.
14 Q. What was she wearing at that time?
15 A. A skirt, and she had jogging pants under the skirt. She also had
16 a sweater and a T-shirt underneath.
17 Q. How far away were you from her when she was shot?
18 A. I can't remember. But I know that we always walked together close
19 by, but I don't know at what distance I was walking from her.
20 Q. You have told us that you always went to the well with a friend in
21 case you were shot. When it came time to --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When it came time for you and your friend, whoever it was, to
24 cross the road carrying water, would you run across together or would you
25 take turns?
1 A. Well, it depends. Sometimes we waited. Whoever runs first was
2 on the other side. We just really wanted to get through as fast as
4 Q. Where was safety on the other side when you were returning home?
5 Was there a particular building that you could run to in order to get out
6 of sight of the people shooting from Polje?
7 A. Well, crossing the road, after crossing the road, we would
8 therefore run and there was a garage inside a house that was burnt down
9 and there was also a very tall cherry tree, and when we ran across, we
10 were very, very happy to get across the road and we were happy to see that
11 we were not shot. And that is it.
12 Q. At the time that Ramiza Kundo was shot, did you see any military
13 weaponry or vehicles nearby?
14 A. No. Because there were no vehicles on that road. Nobody ever
15 took that road.
16 Q. Whereabouts was she shot? What part of her body?
17 A. She was shot in the leg. It was her left leg. And I don't know
18 how to explain it to you. It is the muscle at the bottom of the leg. How
19 is it called?
20 Q. Is that the calf muscle? I will withdraw that question.
21 A. Yes, it is the muscle at the bottom of the leg, under.
22 Q. Did you give her some assistance after she was wounded?
23 A. Yes. I took a towel from her house. I brought it there because
24 she was bleeding profusely, and I was trying to stop the bleeding. So I
25 called for help. I called the Civil Defence for help and they brought her
1 to the hospital.
2 Q. When was the next time that someone with you crossing the road
3 with water was shot?
4 A. On the second time I went to collect water with the same
5 neighbour, Hata. She is a bit older than me. But as we got to that
6 garage, we saw that Fatima was coming back from the well. So we waited
7 for her to cross the road.
8 Q. What is Fatima's last name, or what was Fatima's last name?
9 A. Her last name is Osmanovic.
10 Q. How long after Ramiza Kundo was Fatima Osmanovic shot,
12 A. From what I can remember, it was maybe seven days, something like
14 Q. All right. Now, the time that Fatima Osmanovic was shot, was she
15 returning from the well carrying water?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you cross the road with her or in front of her or were you
18 behind her?
19 A. No. We wanted to go to the well, but we didn't get there. She
20 was coming from the well so on that day --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I am
22 sorry to interrupt. For the French transcript, one small comment. What
23 seems to be on line 17 or 16 on the page in the French transcript, the
24 name should not be written differently than what the witness said. I
25 heard that the question was, "What is the last name of the witness" and
1 this is not what appears in the French transcript. So this is a short
2 comment regarding this name.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Proper attention will be given to it.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
5 MR. IERACE:
6 Q. I think that you said that she and you wanted to go to the well
7 but did not get there; is that correct?
8 A. Hata and myself, yes, it is true. We wanted to go to the well,
9 but on that day we never really got to the well because Fatima was hit.
10 Q. Whereabouts on her body was she shot?
11 A. She was shot in the face. Her cheek was hit and the bullet stayed
12 near her nose, lodged in the cheek, and at the hospital they didn't dare
13 remove it, so it stayed on her face.
14 Q. Did you hear a sound of the shot about the time that she was shot?
15 A. At that very moment, I am not sure but I realised that something
16 had hit, some sort of a metallic surface, and at that very moment, she
17 said, "I am wounded, I am injured, I am hit." And she was bleeding a lot
18 from her nose, from her mouth, and I thought that she would die but, no,
19 she stayed alive.
20 Q. After the war, at some stage after the war, did she die?
21 A. Yes. She --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to
24 that question because if something happened after the war, everything that
25 happened after the war is outside of the scope covered by the indictment
1 and basically it does not correspond to the chronology of the events.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied because the mere fact that
3 facts are not within the period of the indictment does not always make
4 them irrelevant. It might for example explain why she is not called as a
5 witness, which might be of importance to know for the Chamber.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. What was she wearing at the time that she was shot?
9 A. She always wore a skirt, a T-shirt, a sweater. She always wore
10 the same type of clothing.
11 Q. What was the weather like at that time that she was shot?
12 A. It was cooler and cloudy, but it was not raining. The visibility
13 was good. One was able to see clearly.
14 Q. Approximately what time of day was it?
15 A. I don't know with certainty. I think it must have been around
16 noon, but I repeat I don't know exactly what time it was. At the time, I
17 wasn't really paying attention to time. I just hoped that I would stay
18 alive. If I knew, for instance, that I would stay alive and that I would
19 come here to testify before this Court, I would probably take down in
20 writing every detail. I would note down -- I would have noted down every
21 sound of every shell, but like this, I can't remember.
22 Q. We don't expect you to have a perfect memory, Ms. Menzilovic. At
23 the time that you were shot, did you notice whether there was anyone else
24 near you or near her?
25 A. No. If there was anyone, that would be the women, but nobody
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. Did you notice whether there was any military equipment nearby or
4 A. Sir, no. I am sure about that. We were mostly civilians there.
5 There were some elderly women but most of us were women and children.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask that the witness be shown P181TA, a
7 sheet of paper which has two colour photographs on it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, could I perhaps be
10 allowed to take off my jacket? Would I be allowed to take off my jacket,
11 as it is rather warm in here?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. It is warm in here, no open
13 windows here. Please make yourself as comfortable as possible. Yes.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President and Your Honours, by way of explanation, the
15 words which appear on the bottom of this sheet of paper are not part of
16 the exhibit. The photographs were inserted into a document in the form of
17 a report or internal document, and it is only the paragraphs which are
18 relied upon.
19 Q. Would you please look at the two photographs in front of you.
20 Firstly, in particular, the photograph at the top.
21 Perhaps that would be moved down the ELMO. Perhaps we can move --
22 thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am very
25 sorry, but we cannot accept this. Even if the text has nothing to do with
1 the photographs, we are talking about the death or the disappearance of
2 somebody's sister. If we accept and admit this document in this form,
3 then we need to have some sort of guidances as to whose sister it is. We
4 don't know what this is all about. This is one way in which the
5 information is disclosed to us, and this is not the proper way to do it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This could have been done in a
8 different way, without any additions to the text.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the three lines, the text, are
10 not part of the exhibit. Is the Prosecution willing to take a marker pen
11 in black and strike them out? So before the document will be tendered
12 with the last three lines stricken out. Yes.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have a copy of that exhibit which has the
16 words removed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's make that the original. And I think then
18 the parties -- it is no necessity. I think parties and the Chamber could
19 easily get rid of the text. But the original exhibit is now without the
20 three last lines.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. IERACE:
23 Q. Ms. Menzilovic, do you recognise what appears in the top
25 A. Yes, I do recognise. What I am seeing is Polje. This is the
1 area from which they targeted us mostly with sniper fire.
2 Q. Towards the bottom of the photograph we can see part of a sealed
3 road which appears to drop shortly downwards towards Polje; is that
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am very sorry, Mr.
7 President, but I am looking at this photograph and I believe that under
8 the photograph it says "view from the points," plural, and "impacts,"
9 plural, so we talk about a multitude of locations and points. It would be
10 good for the Prosecution to tell us how come they have a photograph
11 showing several points of impact except if we have a situation where a
12 single bullet hit several places, which would be rather strange. We would
13 like to have a clarification on that.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think my friend well knows
15 the Prosecution case in relation to these incidents. Again, certainly,
16 Ms. Pilipovic does, having attended the scene. In any event, the matter
17 which goes to tender these documents which perhaps could be dealt with at
18 a later stage. Put quite simply, my friend well knows that two of the
19 scheduled incidents involve the last two incidents related to this
20 witness, that is in relation to Ms. Kundo and Ms. Osmanovic, and that they
21 were shot within a metre of each other. So perhaps I can continue.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, on the other hand, I must say that this
23 was not in this detail the testimony of this witness. If you are asking
24 the witness to find the evidence of what is your case, then it might
25 become more clear.
1 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.
2 Q. You told us -- perhaps that last question -- I will repeat my last
3 question to you: Towards the bottom of the photograph, we can see part of
4 a sealed road which appears to drop sharply downwards towards Polje; is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What is the name of that road?
8 A. I don't know what is its name right now. I really don't know.
9 Q. What was its name then?
10 A. Well, I don't really know what its name was at the time. Could
11 have been Moja [phoen] Street, the street of the 1st of May. This wasn't
12 something I was really interested in at all, the name of this road. But I
13 can see clearly that this is indeed Polje from which we were targeted from
14 which they opened fire on us. There were snipers there. They had a
15 snipers' nest there. They wouldn't let us leave our houses. And I have
16 had many sniper hits, impacts on my house, I couldn't even count them,
17 there were so many of them.
18 Q. Can you see in the photograph, the road where Ms. Kundo and
19 Osmanovic were shot?
20 A. Yes, I can see the road here, but I can't really tell you exactly
21 but this is the road leading up to that area that populated area to that
22 settlement. I don't know if it is Vogosca or what.
23 Q. Please point to the road on the photograph using the pointer that
24 the usher will hand to you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Will you please point at the photograph, not at the
1 screen. You will see if you point at the photograph on the right-hand
2 side, the pointer will appear on the scene as well.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to apologise really.
4 I didn't pay attention so I didn't even see the photographs to my right.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Indicates]
7 MR. IERACE: For the record, the witness indicates the road on the
8 bottom of the photograph. Thank you for that.
9 Q. Now, you have told us that fire, that is shooting, came from
10 Polje. How do you know that?
11 A. Well, I do know that because I was able to see that personally
12 since further down from my house, there was a meadow that we tilled during
13 the night. We would see where the fire came from. You could see the
14 shots being fired. There is a house with a four-sided roof. We saw it
15 then. We would lie down on that field when we heard them open fire and
16 then we would get up when the shooting stopped. Sometimes they would
17 even shout things at us in a provocative manner, but we would be there in
18 that field for quite a long time. So we were able to see all that.
19 Q. You have told us that you could see the shots being fired at
20 night. What is it exactly that you could see? What is it exactly that
21 you could see at night?
22 A. We were able to see the light. When the shots were fired, we
23 could see the lights. We could see that clearly because we were lying
24 there in that field looking at it.
25 Q. You said that there was a house with a four-sided roof from which
1 shots -- you could see shots being fired. You also said that you could
2 not see that and I noticed that when you said those words, you were
3 looking at your screen.
4 Would you now turn to your right and look at the actual
5 photograph. Are you able to see that house with the four-sided roof in
6 the photograph on your right?
7 A. No, I don't see it. I see the location, but I do not see the
9 Q. The usher will give you a blue pen. Would you please draw a
10 small circle to indicate the location on the photograph.
11 A. The location on the photograph? Can I make a circle? Yes?
12 Q. Yes, a circle indicating where the house where the four-sided roof
13 of the house was, yes.
14 A. As far as I can see on this photograph, it seems to me that this
15 would be the location.
16 Q. Could you now look at the photograph at the bottom of the page
17 and I think we can see a road on the left-hand side of the road are two
18 large garbage bins. On the right-hand side of the photograph, we can see
19 a building. Do you recognise what appears in that photograph?
20 A. Yes, I do. You can see the point where we crossed. There was a
21 garage here and a house, but now you can see -- there is only the house
22 since they tore down everything and they built only the house.
23 Q. When you travelled to the well from your house, did you cross this
24 road from the right to the left, or from the left to the right, that is,
25 when you were going from your house to the well?
1 A. As I went from my house to the well -- I don't know how to explain
2 this to you. I would cross here to the left and then I would approach
3 the water.
4 Q. I think that makes it clear which direction. Thank you for that.
5 A. You can see quite clearly here there was a heap of garbage here
6 where the dumpsters are, and then the Civil Defence cleared this away and
7 UNPROFOR also did that. On that occasion Muharem Mesanovic was wounded in
8 the stomach also by a sniper and he was killed. They couldn't save him.
9 I was not there at the spot but I came there later when he had already
10 been taken away.
11 Q. In what year did that happen?
12 A. Well I don't really know what year it was. It may have been 1994,
13 but I don't know for sure.
14 Q. All right.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown
16 Exhibit P1812.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
18 MR. IERACE:
19 Q. Are you all right, Mrs. Menzilovic?
20 A. Well, when I look at the photographs, because I don't see very
21 well, I have this feeling that I am -- that there is darkness. So when I
22 look at things for a long time, I see those flashes in front of my eyes.
23 But I will be fine.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Mr. President.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just to make everything clear,
1 Mr. President, looking at document 405 to the left, there is a signature.
2 There is something that looks like a mechanical stamp that has been
3 reproduced, copied badly. Perhaps it would be a good idea for Mr. Ierace
4 to tell us, since he has the original, whether this is a badly copied
5 stamp or is this just a trick of some sort, an optical effect, so to
6 speak. I don't know if we have the same copies but just let us see what
7 we with dealing with.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, am I right in understanding that,
9 first of all, that the second page of the document is the back side which
10 bears the name and signature, and there seems to be a kind of a
11 rectangular shape on it. Is it just --
12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think that is the ink that came
13 through from the front of the photograph on the original. In any event --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it very much seems to coincide with the markings
15 made at the front of the --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If this is just the effect,
17 the result of the transparency, it would be good to know whether this is a
18 stamp or not.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think the explanation given by Mr. Ierace is
20 satisfactory for the moment, and if there is any other issue, we could
21 look at the original or you inspect the original.
22 MR. IERACE: Again I note, Mr. President, that if my friend had
23 approached me before outside of court, I would have been happy to assist
24 and save time in court.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. IERACE:
2 Q. Would you please look, Mrs.. Menzilovic, at the photograph in
3 front of you and also at the sheet underneath it. If you turn to your
4 right and look at the sheet underneath the photograph, please. Mrs..
5 Menzilovic, could you please turn to your right?
6 Do you recognise on the sheet underneath, your signature and the
7 date of the 1st of November, 2001?
8 A. Yes, I do recognise it. I recognise my own handwriting and the
10 Q. On that date, did you place your signature and that date on the
11 rear, that is, on the back of this photograph?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. This photograph shows a building, being a ground floor and two
14 floors above it. Is that the same building which appears in the
15 photograph that you looked at earlier which had -- which showed the dumper
16 trucks or the dumpers opposite? For the record, that is --
17 A. No. It is the house where we crossed, but it is the new house.
18 The house was not there at the time because that house that was there at
19 the time had burned down. There was a garage, too, and now there is no
20 garage here.
21 Q. Yes, I appreciate that. Perhaps the witness could be shown P1812A
22 very briefly so that she could compare the two buildings. That might
23 remove any misunderstanding in the questions.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Usher, could you assist.
25 MR. IERACE:
1 Q. Is that the same building, Mrs. Menzilovic? Can you please look
2 at the photograph at the bottom of the page.
3 A. Yes. Yes, it is the same house on both photographs.
4 Q. All right. Now, indeed you have told us that there was a garage
5 and there were some building work after -- some time after these
6 events that you've told us about. Do the black lines --
7 A. Yes, that is the new house and they had taken everything else
8 away. They had to do it, but the old building was not like this one.
9 Q. All right. You told us that when you were returning from the well
10 and running across the road to safety, you knew that you had reached
11 safety when you reached the garage. Whereabouts was the garage --
12 A. Behind the garage. When we got behind the garage, then we would
13 be safe.
14 Q. Whereabouts was that garage in relation to this photograph of the
16 A. The garage would be here, and this is where we crossed. There was
17 a large cherry tree here, and above the garage, there was the house. So
18 that was the house that had burned down. The garage was left, but at one
19 point it was also torn down and they repaired the whole thing. And it was
20 quite soon after these events.
21 Q. For the benefit of the transcript, the witness indicates the
22 position of the garage to have been in the section of the house at ground
23 level and first floor level which is not marked with black lines. The
24 place to which they would run is the darkened area between the left-hand
25 wall of the building and the light pole. The position of the cherry tree
1 was slightly to the right of the light pole.
2 Whereabouts did Mrs. Kundo live?
3 A. Mrs. Kundo lived right there in the house further up. Perhaps
4 this is the house, but I think that this house here may be her house, at
5 least, that is what I think. So she lived there. She stayed there for
6 the entire duration of the war
7 MR. IERACE: Again, for the transcript, the witness points to the
8 red roof which appears immediately behind the light pole and extending
9 behind the tree which is to the left of the light pole. Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would, at this stage, normally would
12 ask the witness be shown the CD, but given the time, perhaps I can hold
13 that into reserve until after the morning break and go to a different
14 topic in the meantime, to use up the next five minutes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: How much time as a whole would you still need
17 MR. IERACE: About 10, 15 minutes at the most.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, you first cover the other issue and then you
20 may continue after the break.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. Where was your house in relation to this photograph?
23 A. On this photograph, when you pass through here and go behind these
24 houses, not very far. I don't know the exact distance, but it is not far,
25 maybe some 20 metres. I am not quite sure. But at any rate, if you go
1 down that way and pass by these houses, you can't see it from here
2 MR. IERACE: Again for the transcript, the witness indicates the
3 dark area immediately to the left of the house and then to the left of the
4 house behind the buildings which are visible.
5 Q. Did your house receive any shell fire during the war?
6 A. Yes. My house was hit by several shells and also some sniper
7 shots, shots fired from sniper rifles, and also shots fired from
8 anti-aircraft machine-guns. That is what I heard.
9 Q. Did the anti-aircraft fire happen in 1993? Did any of that happen
10 in 1993?
11 A. Sorry, no. Well, fire was opened also in 1992, but at first there
12 was a lot of shellfire in 1991 and 1992. We would spend long periods of
13 time in our basements. We would sleep there together with the children,
14 and also later on.
15 Q. Did you receive any shellfire, as you call it, in 1993?
16 A. Yes. Yes. We came under shellfire in 1993, 1994. But I don't
17 know when it was exactly that the shells hit my house, but they did shell
18 us quite a lot. Also in 1992. There was a lot of intense shellfire then.
19 Q. At any stage during the war, was there anyone -- I withdraw that.
20 You've told us that your older child was born in 1974. Is that child a
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. At some stage during the war, did she work for the army?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When was that and for how long?
1 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I can't tell you exactly. I know
2 that it wasn't in 1992 because that is when she graduated from the high
3 school for electrical engineering and then she enrolled in the college,
4 the faculty. It may have been sometime in 1993 or the beginning of 1994.
5 But I think it was in 1993 because everybody was saying that now we can
6 now survivor since I was in dire straits, really, at the time, really.
7 Q. How long did she work for the army?
8 A. In 1995, she was demobilised and that is when she started working
9 in her own branch. But then she studied journalism. But then --
10 Q. I am going to stop you there. What were her duties when she was
11 in the army? What was her job?
12 A. She was in the kitchen. She would clean up a bit and she would
13 bake bread. Help out with the food, mainly, that was her job.
14 Q. Did she ever do any fighting?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am very sorry that I
17 have to interrupt. The witness said something that was not translated.
18 I heard her say in her language that her daughter is not working as a
19 journalist, and that was not in the transcript. I believe that it has to
20 be in the transcript.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that there are a few dots in the
22 transcript. Ms. Menzilovic, you told us that your daughter studied
23 journalism and then you added something. Was that --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Did she work or did she not work as a
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right now she is working in
3 the electrical engineering branch, she is not working as a journalist.
4 That is what I said.
5 MR. IERACE: I think, in fact, Mr. President it is clear from the
6 transcript that the pursuit of journalism happened well after the war
7 which is why it wasn't pursued -- .
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but there was a part, apparently, which
9 was not translated because -- perhaps we will stop there. It is clear
10 now. Please proceed. If you find a suitable moment.
11 MR. IERACE: Yes, I will.
12 Q. You told us she worked in the kitchen in the army?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was she the only person who lived in your household throughout
15 the war who worked for the defence forces?
16 A. I don't know what you mean. I didn't quite understand your
18 Q. Were you and your two children and the third child born in 1987,
19 the only people who lived in your house, in your home, during the war?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. Did you at any stage work for the army or did you work for the
22 defence of Sarajevo?
23 A. No. I didn't work for the military ever. I don't know what you
24 mean by "the defence of Sarajevo." I only fought to survive. I wanted
25 myself and my children to survive, to find some food because we didn't
1 want to be forced to go begging.
2 MR. IERACE: That would be a convenient time, Mr.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Menzilovic, we will have a break for
5 approximately half an hour and then, for a short time, you will be
6 examined again by counsel for the Prosecution and then you will be
7 examined by counsel for the Defence. We will have a break until 11.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We returned a bit late. Apologies for that.
11 You will hear from us about the reasons.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will update you on the meeting with
14 the Defence after this witness is finished, if that is convenient.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. IERACE:
17 Q. You told us before the break, Ms. Menzilovic that you lived in the
18 -- in your home with the three children and no one else throughout the
19 war. Were there any military positions near your home during the war?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You told us that your house received throughout the war shells and
22 anti-aircraft fire. Did you also receive any small arms fire, that is,
23 sniper-type fire?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you take any steps to provide your children and yourself with
1 more safety from sniper fire when they left the house?
2 A. My children were leaving through the window because my entrance
3 door was clearly seen from outside so that was our way to deal with it.
4 And we also had a shelter in the basement at my neighbour's and during the
5 whole war I was placing covers over the windows so that they protect me.
6 Q. What part of the area held by the Bosnian Serb army, if any, could
7 you see from your house?
8 A. I didn't understand your question.
9 Q. First we will ask you this question: You told us earlier that
10 your house was about 500 metres from the front line; is that correct?
11 A. As the crow flies.
12 Q. Could you see the front line from your house?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What part of the front line was that? Was that Polje or a
15 different part?
16 A. I was unable to see Polje held by the Serbs during the war.
17 Q. You told us that shells would land on your house. Did they damage
18 the roof of your house?
19 A. Yes, they did.
20 Q. Did you ever see any parts of those shells?
21 A. Yes. When the first shell hit my house, that is when I saw for
22 the first time what a shell looked like.
23 Q. At any stage during the war, did you see a part of a shell which
24 included fins or blades of metal?
25 A. Yes. It was something round and there were fins around it and the
1 inscription on the device was 82, but I don't know where they were firing
2 from, which direction, but I did find three of those devices on my house.
3 When the smoke would dissipate and when they would stop shooting, this is
4 when I would go to check it out.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I ask you on line 24 of page 40, the
6 transcript reads: "I was unable to see Polje help the Serbs during the
7 war." It was not the recollection of the Chamber that that was the
8 answer. Can you please clarify whether the transcript was correct or
9 perhaps by repeating the question.
10 MR. IERACE:
11 Q. You told us that you could see the front line from your house.
12 What part of the front line could you see, was that Polje or a different
14 A. I said, and I will repeat, we were only able to see Polje. I was
15 not able to see any other part.
16 Q. Thank you. You have told us that you took shelter in your
17 neighbour's basement when your house was fired upon. Following your house
18 being fired upon, given that shells would land on the roof. Did you
19 discover that your roof was damaged?
20 A. What do you mean exactly, if I discovered that it was damaged? I
21 don't understand your question.
22 Q. Did the shells that landed on your roof damage your roof?
23 A. Of course. The roof was completely damaged.
24 Q. Did you try to fix your roof?
25 A. Yes. We tried to fix the roof and we tried to place some plastic
1 covers on top. We could only work at night, however, not during the day.
2 Q. Why?
3 A. Because if they would see us, they would start shooting right
4 away. And on two occasions when I went out to call somebody to help us
5 fix the roof and it was very dangerous, so the neighbours would ask us,
6 Do you need any nails? Do you need some tools? So we had to hide right
7 away. But very often I would have to go up on the roof to put the
8 plastic covers around 11.00 or around midnight as well. I wanted to
9 protect the roof with the plastic covers so that when it rained, the water
10 wouldn't drip down.
11 Q. While you were doing that at night, on any occasions, did you hear
12 any voices from Polje, the direction of Polje?
13 A. Well, at night, no. No. Sometimes maybe, but very rarely. The
14 reason why I was actually allowing myself to go on top of the house was
15 because there weren't firing, but as soon as I would hear them fire, I
16 would not go out.
17 Q. Was there any occasion when from your home you could hear voices
18 coming from the other side of the front line, people calling out and
19 saying things?
20 A. No. I was not able. The line was closest to us, the shelling
21 was coming from the hills. I don't know from where exactly. But with
22 regards to snipers, they were only firing from Polje.
23 Q. Perhaps you misunderstand my question. I am asking about times
24 not when you were being sniped at, but when you were doing other things,
25 such as fixing your roof; did you hear any calling out during those
1 activities from the other side of the front line?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that
4 the question was very clearly asked, and we can read it in line 11 or
5 12 so I don't think that it is necessary to repeat the same question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You are referring to line 11 and 12. I am
7 trying to -- page 43, line 11 and 12 was your observation, Mr.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I am
10 talking of page 42, page 42 and I am going to try to find the line.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think it would be --
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] The question was at line 20.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just read it.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. The question has in
16 different forms been asked twice. The first occasion it could relate to
17 the one moment when the roof was fixed; the second time the question was
18 asked, the answer does not seem to be in a direct relationship with the
19 question. So, therefore, Mr. Ierace you may ask the question. Perhaps
20 you will repeat it to the witness.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. Mrs. Menzilovic, we did not hear your answer so I will ask you
23 the question again.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am really very sorry, Mr.
1 President, but when I tried to search for that line, my computer broke
2 down again so I would like to ask the assistance of a technician, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could someone assist Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 Yes, I see Madam Registrar is taking the necessary measures.
5 Mr. Ierace, perhaps it would be wise to repeat the question to the
7 MR. IERACE:
8 Q. Ms. Menzilovic, when you were fixing your roof, did you hear any
9 calling out, apparently to you, from the other side of the front line?
10 A. I heard that they were calling out from Polje, but on the other
11 side nobody could have seen me.
12 Q. I appreciate that they couldn't have seen you. What did they
13 say? What did the voice or voices say?
14 A. We needed to nail down a piece of wood to nail down the plastic
15 cover. I would hear them say, "Do you need any nails?" And on two
16 occasions, as I said, during the war when I would go up on the roof I
17 would hear them say that. So quite probably they were mocking us,
18 probably. We were not even able to show our faces. We would only stick
19 our head out. I don't know.
20 Q. On other occasions, did you hear voices coming from the other
21 side of the front line saying other things to you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Given that you were fixing the roof at night, how do you think
24 that they were able to know what you were doing, that is, fixing your
1 A. Most probably they saw us. How else would they have known?
2 Q. Now, I will take you back briefly to the time that
3 Fatima Osmanovic was shot. Were there any other neighbours or other
4 people, other women that you knew, present at the time that she was shot
5 that you now remember?
6 A. She was with me at the time. It was only Fatima Pedisa -- Hata
7 Pedisa, and she was with me so we waited for Fatima to cross the street
8 to go to the other side, but there was nobody else. During the war,
9 people would not move too much because they were shooting. Only perhaps
10 the people who were perhaps a bit more daring would go to fetch water.
11 Q. Was Hata Pedisa related to Ramiza Kundo?
12 A. The mother of Ramiza Kundo.
13 Q. Approximately how old is Hata Pedisa?
14 A. Well, according to my evaluation, I think she would say she was
15 born in 1933, I think.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at this stage I ask the
17 witness be shown, and indeed that we all see, Exhibit P3279X.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. IERACE:
20 Q. Would you please look at your screen, Ms. Menzilovic, and in a
21 moment you should see a photograph of a street. Do you see that?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Do you recognise that street?
24 A. I do recognise the street. This is our street, the street that
25 we took to go to the city. So, yes, this is the upper part, the part
1 that was over my house and I think this was the street that we were
2 crossing, if I see it well. I think this is the road we had to cross to
3 go to the well and come back from the well
4 MR. IERACE: We will move the photograph slowly to the
5 right. Please continue to watch it. Please stop.
6 Q. Having regard to your answers in relation to one of the
7 photographs you saw earlier, P1812, do you see in the photograph the
8 house of Ramiza Kundo?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. I think we can see two dwellings with roofs, one to the left of
11 the pole and the other to the right of the pole. Which of the two is it
12 or is it both?
13 A. On the left side, just behind the tree, this is the house of
14 Ramiza Kundo.
15 MR. IERACE: We will continue to move the photograph to
16 the right. Please stop there.
17 Q. Do we now see, having regard to your earlier answers, the area
18 where you and the other woman, the other women, rather, would take shelter
19 alongside the garage which no longer exists?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. IERACE: Please continue to move the image to the
22 right. Please stop.
23 Q. Now, when that garage was there, did it -- did the front of the
24 garage coincide with the front wall of the building that we now see with
25 the glass or did it extent further out or was it further back?
1 A. That garage was right next to this road. I can't tell you what
2 length it was. The house was behind it, because the garage was right next
3 to the road.
4 Q. Would you please look again to the photograph to your right, that
5 is, the photograph on the machine to your right. Do you see that
6 immediately in front of the silver car which is parked in front of the
7 house, there is a black line drawn on the photograph. Do you see that?
8 Very close to the shadow of the car.
9 A. To the right? Do you mean to the right with respect to me?
10 Q. Perhaps it is difficult to pick up on the photocopy. If we can
11 show you the original. Immediately beneath the wheels of the car, do you
12 see now the black thick pen mark, especially beneath the front wheel of
13 the silver car?
14 A. Are you talking about this? I do see it.
15 Q. Would you please point to it again?
16 A. [Indicates].
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Is this the one? That line?
19 Q. Yes. Does that line have any significance in terms of the front
20 of the garage?
21 A. I think so. The garage must have been somewhere here. I don't
22 know. I think so.
23 Q. All right. Please look again at the screen and we will continue
24 to move the photograph to the right. And perhaps that photograph can be
1 MR. IERACE: Perhaps while that is being done, Mr. President and
2 Your Honours, my learned colleagues and yourselves could look at the
3 original photograph.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is not necessary,
5 Mr. President. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It was not only useful to see the front of the
7 photograph, Mr. Ierace, but also useful to look at the back of the
8 photograph which clearly indicates that it is not a stamp, but it is the
9 ink of the marking on the front.
10 MR. IERACE: I showed it to my friend during the break and he now
11 has no issue with that, as far as I understand
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please continue.
13 MR. IERACE: We will continue to move the photograph to the
14 right. Stop there.
15 Q. Do you see on the photograph at the moment the area of Polje,
16 having regard to your earlier answers?
17 A. Yes, I can see it, but it is at a distance.
18 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, there is what
19 appears to be a power transmission pillar on the right and the house on
20 the left. We will now continue to move the photograph to the right.
21 Stop there.
22 Q. The pillar or tower is now to the left of the photograph and some
23 vehicles appear in the photograph, blue and red. Mrs. Menzilovic, I would
24 like you to tell us, when you cross the road, where you would then go in
25 order to get to the well. Do you understand the question?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Once again, terribly sorry to interrupt but it is because of the
4 interpretation that I am intervening. I think I heard in the French
5 interpretation when the witness gave an answer with regards to Polje, I
6 believe that I heard "field" or -- and I do not think that the witness
7 said that in her own language. I do not see it in the English transcript
8 either, so I just want to be sure that we are talking of the same place,
9 and this is the reason why wanted to make sure that everything is clear
10 with regards to the word "Polje."
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think perhaps those of us who speak
12 Bosnian our Serbian would have some understanding of this, given the
13 witness's earlier answers. Perhaps I could clarify it, if is convenient
14 to you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That the witness testified that "polje" means
17 MR. IERACE: Yes, precisely.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but since we talked about
19 a field, which is what I thought I understood in French, and while we were
20 talking about the field, we were seeing a field that the backdrop on this
21 36-degree picture, that as a general term is -- there is an objection to
22 it. A permanent objection stands. Yes, it is true that "polje" means
23 "field," what I heard in French is the word "crete," which means
24 something to that effect.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I am certainly aware that proper
1 attention will be given to the final production of the transcript in
2 respect of this issue.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. IERACE:
6 Q. Mrs. Menzilovic, we will continue to move the photograph slowly
7 to the right. As we do that, as soon as you see the place where you would
8 make your way to the well after crossing the road, can you tell us?
9 A. It is just behind this -- in fact, the area -- the thing that is
10 between the blue and red cars, we would cross past through here and we
11 would go down to the place where we got water. As to how far the well was
12 from this location, I don't know exactly, but it wasn't very far.
13 MR. IERACE: We will continue to move the photograph to the right
14 in order to move us back to the starting position. Thank you.
15 All right, you can stop there. No further questions at this
16 stage, Mr. President. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much Mr. Ierace.
18 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then, please proceed.
21 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. Today, you started answering questions by my colleague by telling
25 us that at the location where you went to fetch water in 1993, Haska
1 Dudevic was shot?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell us what month was it?
4 A. I think it was in July 1993. It was sunny. It was -- indeed, the
5 sun was very hot.
6 Q. Can you tell us where you were at the time when Haska Dudevic was
8 A. I was at the well and Haska was heading towards well.
9 Q. Can you please tell us what time of day it was?
10 A. I think it may have been around noon, maybe sometime past noon,
11 but that would be it.
12 Q. When the incident in which as you say Haska Dudevic was hurt, were
13 there any other people there at that location where you were?
14 A. There were two other women with me who had come down together with
15 me and she was going down, too, and that was it. Nobody else.
16 Q. How often did you go to the well to fetch water?
17 A. It would depend on when my turn would come. Sometimes I would go
18 there once every 24 hours; sometimes I would go twice in the 24 hours. It
19 would all depend on how crowded it was. But in daytime, it was less
20 crowded and I would use this opportunity.
21 Q. So you say that people came to that well every day to get water
22 and that it was crowded and people had to wait in lines?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That part of the city, the street and this whole area where you
25 lived, can you please tell us what is it called?
1 A. It is called Brijesce. The name of my street when I arrived there
2 was called Brijesce Cikma number 6, and now it is called Bulbulistan
3 number 10.
4 Q. On that day when Haska Dudevic was shot, in that area where you
5 lived, was there any shooting there, and how often would there be
7 A. It would depend. If they saw somebody, they would fire more
8 frequently from sniper rifles. But there was quite a lot of shooting.
9 That was the biggest problem we had in that part of the town, the snipers.
10 Q. In that period, so we are talking about 1992, 1993, 1994, did you
11 see Serb soldiers?
12 A. No, I didn't see any.
13 Q. On that day when Haska Dudevic was hurt, did you notify the
14 competent police authorities or anyone from the BH army that the injury
15 took place?
16 A. No. Somebody went to the well from up there and we shouted at
17 that person, "go back, go back, she has been hurt." And that person went
18 back. I don't know who that was. I went to Haska to bathe her with
19 water, to be with her, and then somebody reported to the Civil Defence in
20 Brijesce. But it took a long time, maybe an hour or two, because there
21 was a lot of shooting for somebody to get there. When the shooting
22 stopped, they just took her down to the stream bed, down to the gardens,
23 as we called them, and they had to run because they had to avoid being
24 seen. There were some palm trees there.
25 Q. So you tell us that on that day the shooting lasted for a long
1 time in that area where you went to get water?
2 A. Yes. When Haska was wounded, there was a lot of shooting,
3 probably to prevent people from approaching her. At any rate, there was a
4 lot of fire from sniper rifles.
5 Q. Were you able to determine the area, the part of the city from
6 which the shooting came from?
7 A. It could only have come from Polje and from no other part.
8 Q. Did you hear on that day the direction from which the shooting
10 A. Yes, you could hear that.
11 Q. How far is the area that you called Polje from that area where you
12 went to fetch water?
13 A. I already said that I am not quite sure. I never measured it, but
14 it may be about 500 metres as the crow flies. Maybe it is even less but I
15 really don't know. I am just giving you an approximation. This would be
16 my assessment.
17 Q. In relation to the direction which you specify as Polje and the
18 area that you say was controlled by the Republika Srpska army, can you
19 tell us where were the positions of the BH army, if any? So in relation
20 to that area that you had described for us.
21 A. I don't know where the BH army was. I never saw them because I
22 didn't have the opportunity to go there. But I did hear that it was
23 somewhere near the road, maybe below the road, the Brijesce road. But as
24 I said, I didn't see it myself.
25 Q. If we show you the photograph 1812, P1812. If I may ask the usher
1 to show this photograph, the Prosecution Exhibit 1812 to the witness.
2 So it is 1812PA. Witness, to your right, there is the photograph
3 that you have already looked at.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you please tell us and show us on this photograph the area
6 that you claim is called Donje Polje, lower Polje?
7 A. You go down this road and all this, this entire area down towards
8 Rajlovacic, was called Polje.
9 Q. In relation to this line that you are indicating now on the
10 photograph that claim is called Donje Polje , where is the Bozina Pumpa
11 and the BH army positions that you claim were down from the road?
12 A. The Bozina Pumpa is located there towards Rajlovac - I don't know
13 what the distance is here - and then this road leads up to our place. I
14 don't know the distance, how far the Serbian army and the BH army were
15 from each other. I don't know because I never went there until -- during
16 the war, until the area was liberated. I never went there.
17 Q. So you tell us that you have knowledge that the positions of the
18 BH army were down from the road?
19 A. Yes, and they protected us, at least, the Serbian army should
20 enter the area because our part of the town was a Muslim part and it was
21 inhabited by civilians, by women and children, civilians. That is what I
23 Q. So you confirm that the positions of the BH army were in the
24 vicinity of the road facing the positions of the Republika Srpska army?
25 A. Yes, that is what I heard. But I never saw it because I never
1 went down there. But they were there to prevent them from getting in.
2 That is what I heard, so I don't have direct knowledge.
3 Q. You told us that your daughter worked for the army, for the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You told us that she worked in the kitchen, in the canteen?
7 A. Well, a canteen. If you call the kitchen the canteen, then yes.
8 Q. I apologise, in the kitchen.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell us where the kitchen where the soldiers took their
11 meals was?
12 A. Where they took their meals?
13 Q. Yes. Where did your daughter work?
14 A. It was in a part of the town near Buljakovo, and the kitchen was
15 there, but as to where exactly it was, I don't know because I wasn't
16 there. But it was there in the vicinity of the Orahovacka Street.
17 Q. How often did your daughter go to work?
18 A. Well, sometimes she would go there once in 24 hours; sometimes
19 once in two days. Whenever she was working there.
20 Q. Did your daughter ever tell you what military unit of the BH army
21 took their meals in the kitchen where she worked?
22 A. I don't know that. I know that they did not actually take their
23 meals there. The food was prepared there and it was taken elsewhere, so
24 they did not -- the soldiers did not go there to actually eat.
25 Q. So when you say that they did not eat there and that the food was
1 taken elsewhere, do you mean to say that the food was distributed to the
2 positions where the troops were?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. Did your daughter ever tell you to which positions the food was
5 taken to the soldiers?
6 A. No, I never asked that question because I didn't have time. And
7 it simply -- I was simply not interested in that. The only thing I
8 wanted to do, that I strove for, was to find water, to find wood for fuel
9 and to feed my children.
10 Q. Witness, I would like to go back to your answers to the questions
11 posed by my learned colleague from the Prosecution regarding the incident
12 when Haska Dudevic was hit. Can you tell us whether after this period,
13 and up to the time when you gave a statement to the investigators of the
14 Office of the Prosecutor, did anyone take any statements from you
15 regarding the injury of Haska Dudevic?
16 A. No. No, this is actually now the first time, because I will be
17 testifying on her behalf because she wants to claim a pension so... But
18 that hasn't taken place yet and I never testified on any other occasion.
19 Q. Can you confirm to us that in the year 2001 you spoke to the
20 investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor?
21 A. In 2001? Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. Was that on the 5th of May, 2001 and on the 1st of November, 2001?
23 A. Well, I can't remember exactly, but if it says that these were the
24 dates, then it is correct.
25 Q. Before you gave statements to the investigators of the Office of
1 the Prosecutor, did you give any statements to any official authorities,
2 by that I mean the police or any official organ of the Court, regarding
3 the incidents that you just told us about, the incidents that occurred in
4 1993? You spoke about the incidents in 1993, so did you give any
5 statements regarding these incidents?
6 A. No. No, not until the investigators came, no.
7 Q. Do you have any knowledge of Mrs. Kundo, of whom you spoke, and
8 Mrs. Fatima, do you have any knowledge of them ever giving any statements?
9 A. I don't know that. I never discussed that with them, so I don't
10 know whether they gave any statements or not.
11 Q. Can you tell us how it happened that the investigators of the
12 Office of the Prosecutor came to you and spoke to you and interviewed you
13 about it because they never -- you said that you never spoke to anyone?
14 A. I don't know. I really don't know. It is possible that they
15 proposed me -- the two of them proposed me for -- as a witness. I
16 wouldn't be surprised if that happened. But anyway I really don't know.
17 Q. On the 1st of November, 2001 when you spoke to the investigators
18 of the OTP, you were shown a photograph, Prosecution Exhibit P1811. It is
19 the house that you just spoke to us about. Do you have that photograph
20 in front of you?
21 A. Which house? I don't know the house that you mean.
22 Q. It is photograph P1811. It is the house with the garage.
23 A. Yes, yes, I see it, but not very clearly.
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours, I
1 have 1811 -- 1811 that was used when Ms. Ramiza Kundo was questioned.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that photograph here
3 with me.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. It is actually
6 JUDGE ORIE: 1812 has been used today, yes.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Thank you.
8 Q. Witness, you see this photograph? It is now to your right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell us, can you confirm the lines that are drawn on the
11 photograph? You see the black lines?
12 A. Yes. I do see them, but I don't know what you mean. That is
13 probably where the garage was, but I don't know what the black lines are
14 for. But I do see them.
15 Q. Did you draw the black lines on this photograph?
16 A. I don't know. I may have, but I don't really remember.
17 Q. If you drew those lines, if you marked the photograph in this way
18 with the black line, what did you want to do?
19 A. I repeat, I don't know. I don't know who drew the lines but
20 probably this means that the building did not look like that, that the
21 garage was there closer to the road. But that is the only thing I can
22 think of. This building was not there and that is probably why it was
23 crossed out. I can't see any other reason.
24 Q. Do you now confirm that you did not draw the lines on this
1 A. I say again, I don't know. I don't remember. I really don't.
2 Q. Can you confirm to us that you signed this photograph on that day?
3 A. Yes, I did sign this photograph.
4 Q. Yet you cannot confirm whether you drew the lines or not?
5 A. No, I don't remember. I really don't.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, that is the third time you asked it.
7 The question has been consistently been answered.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. But the
9 witness answered to a different effect. The witness answered in such a
10 way that I felt that she would be able to provide me with a specific
11 answer, but as she repeated for the third time that she cannot remember,
12 that concludes my questioning regarding this photograph. I have no other
13 questions regarding it.
14 Q. Witness, in the course of the examination-in-chief, you told us
15 that it was mostly women and elderly men who went to the well to fetch
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell us where were the young men and men who were able to
19 work and who may have been younger people, let's say people aged between
20 20 and 40?
21 A. I don't know. That didn't interest me at all. My husband was not
22 at home so I did not ask any questions about any other people, younger
24 Q. If I were to tell you that Fatima Osmanovic had a son and that he
25 was a soldier in the BH army, would you agree with me?
1 A. If that is what you know. If you know that better than I do. I
2 don't know. He was somewhere, I don't know where. He was young and I
3 know that he was killed. As to where, on what line, I really don't know.
4 As I said, it didn't interest me. I had my own duties. Sometimes I
5 didn't know where I was at all. I had a death in the family. My husband
6 was in captivity for four years in Visegrad. So the only thing that
7 interested me were my children. Nobody in the neighbourhood interested me
8 at all.
9 Q. Is it true that when your husband came from Visegrad where you say
10 he was in captivity, that he joined the BH army?
11 A. I do know that when he recuperated, when he got treatment for this
12 wounds, he went to the -- he joined the army. But when Sarajevo was
13 liberated -- well, I'm a bit confused, I can't really say that. I know
14 that when Sarajevo was liberated, he came home. I know that he was alive
15 and well, and that is the only thing that matters.
16 Q. When he joined the BH army, can you tell us what military
17 formation he joined and where the positions were where he went?
18 A. I can't tell you that because I don't know that. Because when he
19 came home, I never asked him where he had been. I was only happy to see
20 him alive and well. As to where he was, where he went, I don't know.
21 Q. You said that your husband joined the BH army. Can you tell us
22 how often he went to the position?
23 A. Ma'am, I don't know. He was out there. Sometimes I would hear
24 from him only once in a year, in every year, through ham radio operators.
25 You ask me for too much. It seems that you want me to know something that
1 you cannot know at the time when you are surrounded, you are besieged, you
2 can't find information.
3 Q. You gave a statement, Mrs. Menzilovic, to the investigators of
4 the OTP on the 5th of May 2001, and on page 2 of your statement, in B/C/S,
5 pages 03031342, you stated, and I will quote from line 3 of your
6 statement: "Witness please go ahead. He had gone to see his father during
7 in Visegrad in 1992 and was taken prisoner. He wasn't a soldier at the
8 time, but he did join the army after he escaped.
9 A. Yes, but as to where he went and what he did I don't know that.
10 Because he was in Vogosca, I don't know where he went. I would hear from
11 him once every year through ham radio operators and he had to join
12 somewhere to survive. He couldn't just wander around. I think, but I
13 don't know, but I think --
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise, but didn't
15 hear the term that the witness used.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the last part of the answer was
17 not audible. Could you please invite the witness to perhaps repeat when
18 she said "I would hear from him once every year through the radio
19 operators and he had to join somewhere to survive. He couldn't just
20 wander around," I think and what comes is not being translated. You might
21 have heard me as well. The last part of what you said could not be heard
22 by the interpreters. So would you please repeat it, on from where you
23 said "He couldn't just wander around, I think but" --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he just had to join
25 but I think he was also in the kitchen. I don't know for sure, but that
1 is what I think. He was in Gorazde. That is all I know. Any more
2 specific than that.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. So you tell us that your husband was a member of the BH army and
5 that he worked in the kitchen as far as you know?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Witness, when your husband returned to Sarajevo and
8 came home, can you tell us when it was, what year?
9 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in 1990 --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE: For ten minutes we heard questions about such
13 as where was your husband positioned, how often did he go to that
14 position. Now the witness is asked questions as to what happened on his
15 return not only after the incidents but after the war. I object to the
16 question and the questioning on the basis of relevance, given the
17 response my learned friend on such occasions in the pest that goes to
18 testing the credibility of the witness. I anticipate that in my
19 respectful submission, this questioning can have no relevance to the
20 credibility of the witness. And in any event the issue of credibility only
21 arises if something is in dispute. While the accused was not present
22 while these people were shot, we don't say that. In my respectful
23 submission, it is not at all clear from this line of questioning or such
24 questioning in the past about similar witnesses what is in issue. Thank
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could you explain the
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the relevance
4 is the following: The reason for these questions are to verify the
5 credibility of the witness. When I stated to the witness a portion of
6 her statement that she gave to the OTP when he was captured he was in
7 the war but he joined the army after he ran away. The witness never told
8 us that her husband was captured, was and in prison, but that he went to
9 the army in Gorazde so my last question was the following: When is it
10 that her husband arrived in Sarajevo. Because during the
11 examination-in-chief she told us she was alone with her children. From
12 her statement given to the OTP members, we can see that he joined the army
13 after he escaped. I only wanted to ask the witness if her husband came to
14 Sarajevo when he joined the army, BH.
15 A. My husband had been captured before but when he escaped, he was
16 in the army as I did say that. But then he came back home in 1996, in
17 the month of May. So after four years later --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your answer. Ms.
19 Pilipovic, if you would have asked this question to start with you
20 continued questioning about the military duties of the husband of the
21 witness for quite some time. I was a bit surprised and I didn't want to
22 interrupt you, but already at the beginning, she clearly indicated that
23 her husband was not in Sarajevo. So I was wondering what the relevance
24 is of the knowledge of the witness of what her husband does at quite a
25 distance where she indicated again and again that she only knew she would
1 be in contact with him only once a year approximately, what the relevance
2 of this question was. Of course, I didn't know whether there were any, so
3 I think it could have been done more efficiently but please proceed.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I must say
5 that the witness spoke all the time of a husband who worked in the
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No I said right away that my
8 husband had not been there for four years. When you ask me now if he
9 joined the army it is obvious that I said yes, but before, no.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you could have asked a kitchen
11 in Sarajevo or a kitchen elsewhere. The witness testified she was alone
12 with her children. So the first question that would have been
13 appropriate is to ask about the whereabouts of her husband and if she
14 then would have given the answer that she gave later on, it would have
15 been clear from the beginning.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you,
18 but my question put to the witness were to examine the credibility of the
20 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And we can say that the
22 witness was not honest during cross-examination.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything I went through I
24 lived personally, I felt it personally. I only know when I --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, this is comment on the answers
1 of the witness and I allowed you to proceed to cross-examine the witness.
2 Would you please proceed.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Witness you told us earlier that an incident occurred during
5 which Ramiza Kundo was wounded?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us when did this happen on what day and what was the
8 date of the incident?
9 A. I do not know the date. I know that it was the beginning of the
10 month of November, but I couldn't really tell you the exact date because I
11 didn't take note of it.
12 Q. How often would you go to fetch water with Ramiza Kundo?
13 A. I said that sometimes we wept once every 24 hours; sometimes
14 twice. Other times once, but I couldn't really tell you how often,
15 exactly. I know that I went to fetch water not only with Ramiza but as
16 soon as somebody was going to fetch water, I would go with that person so
17 that I don't go alone.
18 Q. But on that day when Mrs. Ramiza Kundo was injured, did you go to
19 fetch water or were you coming back?
20 A. We were coming back from the well.
21 Q. Witness, could we please show the witness the piture 1812A.
22 Witness, you see a photograph on the ELMO. You already had seen this
23 picture. Can you confirm to us if on this picture you see two
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell us concerning these two containers, where were the
2 two of you when Mrs. Ramiza Kundo was injured, how close to these
3 containers were you?
4 A. We were almost crossing already. We were to cross and this is
5 approximately where we were when we hid. And we were just about to
7 Q. Can you tell us, was Mrs. Kundo to your right or to your left?
8 A. I couldn't really tell you. I don't remember because we were
9 running and I don't remember any more. I do repeat that if I knew that I
10 was going to testify here, that I was going to survive, I would have taken
11 everything down in writing and you unnerved me so much because you told
12 me I didn't tell the truth. Everything was the truth. I do not invent
13 anything. I do not lie. These are the events I went through. I lived
15 Q. Thank you, Witness. With regards to these two containers, we can
16 see a settlement just behind the containers. Do you see it?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Can you tell us if this part of the settlement also belonged to
19 Brijesce Brdo?
20 A. Yes, it does, but the streets are different. But I cannot tell
21 you. Some people call it Brezanska. But yes, it does belong to that
23 Q. To Brijesce Brdo?
24 A. I think so, yes. I don't know, but mainly yes.
25 Q. In the backdrop of this picture, in the area where we see a line
1 between the blue sky and the settlement, do you see a mosque?
2 A. I don't know. Where do you mean?
3 Q. On the lower picture just above the containers.
4 A. I really don't see it.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 Can you tell us, if you know if during the year of 1993 in this
7 part of the settlement, was there a tank?
8 A. No. I never heard of that, and I don't really know. I have never
9 seen it.
10 Q. Do you know if in or around this settlement during the conflict
11 that lasted during the year of 1993 and 1994, if they were -- if there
12 were any positions of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
13 A. I didn't understand you.
14 Q. We talked about a settlement, an area that we can see on the
15 lower picture right behind the containers. Could you confirm to us
16 whether if in 1992, 1993, and 1994, positions of the army of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina were there?
18 A. If you are talking about this picture in which we can see the
19 containers, I can say no, the positions were not there. It was a
20 settlement inhabited by civilians. There were no positions there.
21 Q. Can you tell us, if you know, with respect to this part of the
22 settlement that we see here, where were the positions of the army of
24 A. I really don't know where they were. This is a civilian
25 settlement under the road, and I can't see it here.
1 Q. So, Witness, you are telling us once again that you do allow the
2 possibility that the position of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina could
3 have been under this road?
4 A. Yes, this is something that I had heard only, but I had never
5 seen them. I had never gone there during the war.
6 Q. If we talk about 1992 and 1993, as well as 1994, while you were
7 going to fetch water and while you were waiting in line to get water
8 during the day and during the night, would you sometimes see soldiers
9 belonging to the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the settlement where you
11 A. No, I did not see them there personally; and where I lived, I
12 didn't see any. Maybe they were somewhere else, but not where I lived.
13 Q. Did you ever during that period of time at any time see any
14 soldiers? And could you also tell us how were they dressed, any soldiers
15 of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army?
16 A. I can't really tell you. I know they were wearing camouflage
17 uniforms but only when I would go to visit my sister in Pofalici. She was
18 sick, and I would go and see her to help her. This is the only time when
19 I would see them, when I would see them on the road to Pofalici because I
20 would go on foot. But in my settlement where I lived, no, I have not seen
22 Q. Mrs. Menzilovic, did you ever go to Mrs. Ramiza's house? Aside
23 from going to fetch water with her, do you know who were the members of
24 her family?
25 A. With regards to Mrs. Ramiza Kundo, I have to tell you that I was
1 her best friend. She had two daughters. One of her daughters was
2 retarded; the other one is normal. And she also had a husband. And that
3 is all. That was her family.
4 Q. Can you tell us, the husband of Ramiza Kundo in 1992, 1993, and
5 1994, do you know if he was a member of the ABiH?
6 A. Yes, I do know that, and I also do know that he was also working
7 in the kitchen.
8 Q. During the year of 1992, 1993, and 1994, had you ever seen the
9 husband of Mrs. Kundo?
10 A. Yes, I have, but not when he was wearing a uniform, and I don't
11 know where he was going. My house was very exposed, and he was going
12 somewhere behind. My house was the first one, as I said, the first one
13 from Polje. You could see my house. My house was the first one to be
14 seen. So nobody was able to come and go freely from my house and to my
15 house, and this is why I can't really tell you. But I don't really know
16 where he was going.
17 Q. Mrs. Menzilovic, on that day, you say that it was the month of
18 November when yourself and Mrs. Ramiza were coming back from the well.
19 Can you tell us if the husband of Mrs. Ramiza was at home that day?
20 A. No. Hilmo Kundo was in the hospital because he suffered from
21 kidneys, and the children were left alone. So when she went to the
22 hospital, her mother stayed with the retarded kid because the retarded kid
23 doesn't speak and she was crying a lot. That is why the third day, she
24 had to come back from the hospital, because of her retarded kid.
25 Q. Do you know if when Mrs. Ramiza Kundo was wounded that day in
1 November, that the police from the CSB of your locality, did they come to
2 take any statements?
3 A. I did not see them. Only when she was wounded, I called the Civil
4 Defence. I don't even know how they were called actually any more. But
5 no, the police wasn't coming there then.
6 Q. Mrs. Menzilovic, you see a picture on the ELMO. On the upper
7 picture, you have indicated a house with a circle. Is this the case?
8 A. Yes, I did indicate a house. This is Polje. This is where the
9 shots were coming from.
10 Q. Today during the examination-in-chief, in answer to a question by
11 my learned friend, you said that you were taking care of the fields and
12 you would hide when you would hear the shots?
13 A. Yes. Right under my house, Malbasic Savo, Janko, had a field, and
14 it was a large field. And we would sow and dig, and we would work in the
15 field but only during the night, never during the day. Sometimes also
16 when it was foggy, I would go to look, and then I would hide back into the
18 Q. Mrs. Menzilovic, on this picture, can we see this field that you
19 were working on?
20 A. No, we cannot see it. There is a photograph as showing a house;
21 it is a newly-constructed house. It is the first house that we see right
22 off the road, but we cannot see it on this photograph.
23 Q. You told us that you worked on the fields belonging to Malbasic
24 Savo and Janko?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Are those your neighbours?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did they also have that house or a house?
4 A. Yes. And the son of Savo went to school with my eldest daughter
5 for eight years.
6 Q. During the conflict, were you friends with them, with the
7 neighbours, and were you working on the field together?
8 A. What do you mean?
9 Q. You say that you worked on their fields. Did you work with them?
10 A. No, they were not there during the war. They left right away, so
11 they were no longer there.
12 Q. Did they own a house there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did somebody live in that house, or was it destroyed?
15 A. No, nobody lived there. But yes, it is true that from their
16 shells, maybe they thought it was our houses, the army of ABiH. But the
17 house of Sava was incredibly exposed, and this is why nobody lived in that
18 house. And now he sold that house.
19 Q. Do you know if during 1992 and 1993, as well as 1994, on the
20 positions of the army of BH, which under -- which according to your
21 knowledge was under that road, do you know that they had weapons and did
22 they shoot?
23 A. I do not know this. As I said, I was not particularly preoccupied
24 by this. I would like to say it one more time. I was not involved in
25 military matters. I am a woman. I was taking care of my children.
1 Q. Witness, you told us that you were present when the incident
2 involving the wounding of Fatima Osmanovic occurred?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I believe you told us that she succumbed later?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell us, when did she die?
7 A. I think she died 18 months ago.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
10 MR. IERACE: -- the way in which that question was translated was
11 by use of the word "succumbed". I would not like the Defence to think
12 that it is the Prosecution's case that Mrs. Osmanovic died directly as a
13 result of physical injuries suffered during this incident. I want to make
14 that clear. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 It might be the translation which suggested she finally died as a
17 result of, I would say that could be the intrinsic meaning of the word
18 used in the translation. But since whatever misunderstanding has been
19 clarified, please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which line, Mr. Ierace, are we
21 talking about?
22 JUDGE ORIE: We are talking about page 72, line 5,
23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. But since your colleague is cross-examining, if there
24 is any specific question, I would rather avoid that it's two counsel at
25 the same time. But that is the line where at least the translation of the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 question is. I don't know what it was in the original language, but since
2 everything has been cleared up, if there would have been a
4 Please proceed.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Witness, can you tell us on that day when Mrs. Fatima Osmanovic
7 was wounded, were there any other people present at the well?
8 A. No. I was waiting to cross the street with Hata, and then Fatima
9 showed up. We didn't see anybody else. We waited for her to cross the
10 road, and I saw her all of a sudden all covered with blood. I didn't see
11 anybody else.
12 Q. Can you tell us if from the place where you were standing together
13 with Mrs. Hata, at that moment when you saw Mrs. Fatima, can you see the
14 source or the well from which the water comes from that spot?
15 A. No, because it is under the hill. It is under the road.
16 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us on that day when Fatima Osmanovic was
17 wounded, was she transferred to a hospital, and which hospital was that,
18 if so?
19 A. Yes, she was transferred to a hospital and I believe it was the,
20 Kosevo Hospital. I am not quite certain, though, that that was the case,
21 that it was that hospital.
22 Q. On the picture placed on the ELMO, and I am talking of the lower
23 picture, are you telling us that the well was under the road?
24 A. It is across the street from the road, on the other side of the
25 road, not completely under the road. But as we cross the road, we have to
1 go down, and maybe 20 metres further down was that well.
2 Q. So if I understand correctly, you had to go down 20 metres
3 downhill to that well?
4 A. Well, I never measured it. I am just giving you a general figure.
5 Maybe it a 15 metres. I don't know. But I am just giving you a sort of
6 rough estimate.
7 Q. Would you agree with me that the source was under, situated under
8 the road?
9 A. All right. If you wish to call it "under." I call it across the
10 road. You call it under. Maybe we have a different way of saying things.
11 Q. If you tell us and if we agreed on the fact that the well was
12 under the road, and you told us that the positions of the ABiH army were
13 under the road, would you be able to tell us at what distance were the
14 positions from the ABiH army from the well?
15 A. I really couldn't tell you. I really don't know. It is in the
16 direction of Polje towards the Serb side, but how far is it, I couldn't
17 tell you.
18 Q. Would you agree with me if I tell you that when we talk about the
19 well where you went to fetch water and if we talk about Polje, the area of
20 the settlement for which you say that was occupied by the Serb army, so
21 that if you look from the well, you would first see the positions of the
22 ABiH army and then afterwards, towards Polje, you would see the position
23 of the VRS?
24 A. Well, yes, something like that.
25 Q. Do you know if in that area that we have identified the positions
1 occupied by the ABiH army and the VRS, would you be able to confirm to us
2 that there were battles fought between those two armies?
3 A. I never heard about this. I never heard them fight so I don't
4 think so.
5 Q. You told us today during the examination-in-chief that shots were
6 fired from the direction of the depot; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. If we look at photo number 1 and photo number 2, would you be able
9 to indicate to us where is this depot?
10 A. No, because we cannot see it on this -- on these two pictures. It
11 was not -- it is not present there. It is towards the gas station near
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic. Look at the clock. If you could find
14 suitable moment to interrupt cross-examination. How much time would you
15 still need, approximately?
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 15 to 20 minutes at
17 the most. This might perhaps be the right moment for a break. Thank
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will have a break --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a headache and I would like
21 to ask you for a break, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will have a break for 20 minutes, and I hope
23 that you feel better upon returning. If not, please tell us. Since I
24 stole a few minutes from all of you during the first break, also from the
25 interpreters, we will have a break until five minutes to 1.00.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before you adjourn, feedback from Mr.
2 Mundis, the proposal is acceptable to the person involved.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Facial distortion?
4 MR. IERACE: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break until five minutes to 1.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Menzilovic, I hope that during the break you had
9 a moment to recover and that you feel a bit better now. Whenever there is
10 any problem, please tell me, yes?
11 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would just like to
14 say that we are proceeding --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first deal with the examination of the
16 witness. Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
18 would now like the witness to be shown the circular photograph the
19 Defence would like to ask some questions.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we please have the assistance of the case
21 manager of the Prosecution. I usually receive it on the computer evidence
22 channel, which now shows an empty courtroom to me. So we will wait for a
23 second. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there any reason why -- I asked the
24 technicians to teach you how to fix it again. Yes. I do understand, Mr.
25 Piletta-Zanin, just so that as soon as you close your computer that the
1 problem arises. So perhaps if you leave it open. Yes.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We had some problems
3 before. The computer was open when I addressed you, but I did not have
4 time. But this is a habit.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll ask one of the technicians to assist Mr.
6 Piletta-Zanin now. Was that what you wanted to bring to my attention, Mr.
7 Piletta-Zanin, earlier?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I wanted to turn your
9 attention to two things: First of all, something happened during the
10 break and my laptop no longer works, and secondly I wanted to say, but
11 that is not important at all.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the laptop issue would have merited my
13 attention. If then perhaps you start your first line my laptop is down
14 again, then I know immediately that it is something serious which needs my
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, we usually rise and ask
17 to be given the floor for some important matters.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
20 would now like the photograph to be moved left in the direction
21 left-wards. Stop.
22 Q. Mrs. Menzilovic, in the left-hand corner of this photograph we see
23 a house which has an upper storey. Can you please tell us whether this
24 house was there in the course of the conflict?
25 A. This one next to the one there?
1 Q. Yes, the first house that we see in the left-hand corner facing
2 the pole.
3 A. No. No, it wasn't there. There was a fence there where the
4 meadow begin, that belonged to Janko.
5 MR. IERACE: I think that description, for the benefit of the
6 transcript, is ambiguous. Perhaps my friend could clarify which of the
7 two houses which appear on the screen at the moment. Perhaps it might
8 help that one of them is described as having a silver car in front of it,
9 whereas the other car does not have any vehicles in front of it
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the first house as it was translated
11 could be from this side or the other side. So...
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, but I said
13 quite clearly that it is the house facing the hole which is quite visible
14 here in the middle of the photograph.
15 A. No, no, it wasn't there.
16 Q. Was there any house there at all?
17 A. No. The meadow began there. It was a large meadow and it
18 belonged to Savo and Janko Malbasic.
19 Q. So you tell us there was a meadow down there where you tilled the
20 land, where you farmed the land?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. It belonged to the Malbasic family?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us if this in photograph, in the bottom of the
25 photograph, the little elevation, the hill that is seen here, can you tell
1 us what that is?
2 A. Across the house, near the pole?
3 Q. Yes, near the bottom of the photograph.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise but we didn't hear
5 the answer of the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know what
8 that hill is.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think interpreters couldn't hear the answer but
10 since the witness repeated it, I take it there is no unclarity any more.
11 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 Q. So you told us that the hill in the bottom of the photograph,
14 which hill is it?
15 A. I didn't say anything. I don't know which hill you mean. What I
16 see in front of the house towards the pole -- I can just see the flower
17 beds belonging to the person that owns the house.
18 Q. In the bottom of the photograph behind the pole, do you see an
19 inhabited area, a built-up area?
20 A. Yes, I do, further down deeper into the photograph. But I don't
21 see a house or anything or a hill.
22 Q. Can you tell us what is this area that you can see in the depth of
23 the photograph behind the pole? What is it called?
24 A. I see Polje. The whole area that I can see is Polje.
25 Q. When you say "Polje," does that mean the settlement of Polje?
1 A. Yes, it used to be a Serbian settlement before the war.
2 Q. And after the war?
3 A. Before the war it was a Serbian area, and Serbs were there during
4 the course of the war.
5 Q. Are you saying that in the course of the conflict in Sarajevo that
6 the area in the depth of this photograph was inhabited by Serbs?
7 A. Yes, Serbs lived there. It was theirs.
8 Q. Can you tell us in the bottom -- on the bottom of the photograph,
9 this part that you referred to as a built-up area, the elevation that can
10 be seen, can you tell us if this is a hill or a mountain, do you know what
11 that is?
12 A. You mean the big mountain in the back?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. I think it is Igman. It is the Igman mountain, if that is what
15 you mean.
16 Q. Do you know whether in the course of the conflict in 1992, 1993,
17 and 1994, whether there were any troops on the Igman mountain?
18 A. No, I don't know that and it didn't interest me. I said that
19 right at the beginning.
20 Q. Thank you, Witness.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, I would like the photograph
22 to be turned right. Stop.
23 Q. Witness, can you tell us as you look in the direction of this
24 transformer behind this elevation where the road is, can you tell us in
25 the bottom of this photograph, what part of the settlement is there? We
1 cannot see it on the photograph, but can you tell us what is behind all
2 this? What is in the bottom?
3 A. When I look in this direction, and if we could see behind the blue
4 van or whatever that is, you could still see the Polje settlement. But
5 that is in the direction of Rajlovac.
6 Q. You told us about the depot. Is the depot also located in this
8 A. I think it is in this general direction, but I can't see it.
9 Q. Can you tell us -- you told us in the course of the
10 examination-in-chief you mentioned Bacici, that this was also the
11 direction from which the fire came from?
12 A. Yes, I never knew that this area, that this settlement was called
13 Bacici. I knew it as "Polje". I had a little radio that I listened to
14 from time to time. And I heard them shout they would open fire from
15 Bacici. When I asked what Bacici was, I was told that it was, in fact,
16 Polje, and that is where the fire came from.
17 Q. When you tell us that you listened to the radio, can you tell us,
18 did you hear anything about the Bacici settlement and the settlement that
19 you refer to as "depot," that there was any fighting going on there?
20 A. No, I never heard it. I don't know whether there was any
21 fighting going on. From what I heard on the radio, I only wanted to
22 hear -- I wanted to hear news about anyone trying to liberate us, the
23 foreigners coming in to protect us. Things like that.
24 Q. When you say that -- if we look at this photograph, that in the
25 bottom, that we cannot see that Polje is located there, is the Bozina
1 Pumpa also located there?
2 A. Yes. Perhaps a little further down towards Rajlovac, but that
3 would in general be it, yes.
4 Q. Can you confirm, then, that in the bottom -- at the bottom of this
5 hill, behind this hill towards Bozina Pumpa, that the BH army positions
6 were located there at the time?
7 A. I cannot confirm it. As I have already said, I didn't go there,
8 and I wasn't preoccupied with the military things. The only thing that
9 interested me was how to feed my children and my children in general.
10 Nothing else.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you please confirm that in relation to the place
12 where you went to fetch water at the well, can you please confirm whether
13 there were any trenches near that well?
14 A. No. No, there were not any trenches there. I didn't see any
15 trenches, and I am absolutely sure that there were no trenches in the
16 vicinity of that place.
17 Q. If you say that you are sure that they were not in the vicinity,
18 can you then tell us whether they were further away from the well? There
19 were any trenches there, and how far were they?
20 A. I don't know whether there were any, how far or what. I really
21 don't know. I can't tell you things I don't know.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to have
23 the photograph moved further to the right.
24 Q. Witness, if you look in the direction of this car on this
25 photograph at the top of the hill, do you see a mosque or a church?
1 A. No, I really can't see. I don't have my glasses on, and I can't
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there are two cars on the screen.
4 Perhaps my friend might indicate whether she means the red car or the grey
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. I meant the grey
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I can't really see because I
9 didn't take my glasses so I can't see.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. Witness, do you have any knowledge whether if you look at the
12 direction of the grey car, looking at the part of the settlement where in
13 1993 we have -- do you have any information that a BH army tank was there?
14 A. No, I don't know. I never went there, so I really don't know.
15 Q. If I were to tell you that witness Ramiza, Kundo who testified on
16 the 22nd of March, on page 5966, when asked by the Defence about this part
17 of the photograph, said that there was a BH army tank stationed there,
18 would you agree with me that this is correct?
19 A. I don't agree. First of all, I didn't see it.
20 MR. IERACE: I object. The question has no probative value and
21 the witness has already said she doesn't know. The fact that someone else
22 has said there was can be of no assistance.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the objection is sustained.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, when you told us that in the part of the settlement where
1 you yourself lived, you told us that Muslims lived there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you saying that there were no other members of other ethnic
4 groups there in that part in the course of the conflict? I mean Croats
5 and Serbs.
6 A. There were some Croats, but there weren't too many of them even
7 before the war. They lived closer to their own church. But -- and
8 perhaps 100 and 150 metres away from where I live, there was a Serb. He
9 still lives there, in fact. But these were all the local inhabitants.
10 Q. When my learned colleague asked you this question, you explained
11 to him that they would shout things at you - you said these were probably
12 Serbian soldiers - as you repaired the roof to your house; is that
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the photograph to
16 be moved to the right, as far to the right as possible. To the right, to
17 the right, not to the left. Stop.
18 Q. Now, in relation to the house of Ramiza Kundo which you identified
19 for us, where and in what direction in relation to this house would your
20 house be, and how far away from Ramiza Kundo's house it was?
21 A. My house was straight down 20 metres. If you climb up the stairs
22 and then look down 20 metres or so. I never measured it, but that would
23 be it. It was the first house next to the meadow owned by Malbasic
24 family, so the first house you can see here, and then there is another
25 house and then my house. There was no house on the meadow. My house was
1 the first house next to the meadow.
2 Q. In relation to your house, can you tell us how far away from it
3 were the positions of the Republika Srpska army?
4 A. Ma'am, as I have already said, I never measured it, but as the
5 crow flies, perhaps 500 metres. As I said, I never measured it. I never
6 checked it but I have said this for quite a few times. I cannot tell you
7 this with any certainty.
8 Q. So you tell us that the positions of the Republika Srpska army
9 were about 500 metres away from your house as the crow flies?
10 A. Yes, approximately a bit more, perhaps a bit less, but that would
11 more or less be it.
12 Q. Are you telling us that from that direction, from 500 metres away
13 as the crow flies, that Serb soldiers shouted at you whether you needed
14 any -- do you need any nails?
15 A. Yes, precisely. They first destroyed the roof and then they asked
16 us if we needed any nails.
17 Q. From the location of your house, were you able to see the
18 positions and the location where the Republika Srpska army soldiers
20 A. I didn't see the positions, I don't know where the positions were,
21 but you could clearly see the area inhabited by Serbs from the terrace,
22 Polje, the houses, I didn't see the soldiers, however, because during the
23 day, I didn't even dare to look. But I know what the view is of Polje
24 from my house.
25 Q. When you say that you can see the Serb houses from your house, can
1 you tell us, the Serb houses, how far away from your house were they?
2 A. I already told you. Because these houses were in Polje.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence
4 doesn't have any further questions.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
6 Mr. Ierace, is there any need to re-examine the witness?
7 MR. IERACE: Very briefly, Mr. President. First of all, the
8 picture on the screen shows the light pole slightly to the left of centre
9 and the passageway between the light pole and the house to the
10 right. Mr. President, I was going to ask that a particular photograph be
11 shown to the witness, but I notice it is already to her
12 right on the ELMO.
13 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:
14 Q. Ms. Menzilovic, would you look at the photograph on the bottom of
15 the page just to your right. You were asked to indicate where you and Ms.
16 Kundo was at the time that she was shot. Would you please take a blue pen
17 and with a cross on that photograph, mark, where to the best of your
18 recollection, Ms. Kundo was at the precise moment that she was shot? Just
19 before that happens, Mr. President, on the video evidence button, I am not
20 getting the ELMO. I don't know whether anyone else is. Before it is
21 marked, perhaps we should clarify that, rectify that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Can we please have under the video evidence button
23 the ELMO because at this moment I see Defence counsel.
24 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
25 Q. Please mark that position with a cross.
1 A. Here on this photograph?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Right here on this photograph, I can tell you only the place on
4 the other side of the pole. So I can only indicate to you that place. So
5 on the other side of the pole a little further down or up, if you wish, I
6 cannot give you this indication from this picture.
7 Q. All right. Do you see on the photograph where Mrs. Osmanovic was
8 at the time that she was shot?
9 A. Yes, I do. I do see the spot. Right next to this tree, and
10 Ramiza was a little further up, maybe just across the street from this
12 Q. Could you please mark with a cross where Mrs. Osmanovic was,
14 A. Would you like me to make a circle or a cross?
15 Q. Just a cross.
16 A. Where Fatima Osmanovic was?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Now can you see in the photograph where Mrs. Kundo was or not?
20 A. If I look at the photograph before me, yes, I can see it. It is a
21 bit further up, above the pole.
22 Q. Could you place a small circle where Mrs. Kundo was when she was
24 A. It could be somewhere here above this place because she was
25 standing further down. Right here.
1 Q. Given where you have placed the circle, perhaps I should ask this
2 question: Approximately how far apart were the two positions?
3 A. Approximately a metre or two. Not more, because it was a fence
4 through which there was a door and Ms. Ramiza would go through actually.
5 The fence was demolished in one certain part so she didn't really have to
6 go through the place where we would enter, but she could go through that
7 part, so about a metre.
8 Q. Please look at the photograph at the top of the page and perhaps
9 it could be slid down on the ELMO. You were asked questions during
10 cross-examination about a place called, I think, Donje Polje. Is that
12 A. I know it as Polje.
13 Q. I think you were indicating during the questioning by
14 Ms. Pilipovic, an area to the right of the black circle and towards the
15 houses, and I think you indicated that area when you were asked to point
16 to the area of Donje Polje or Donja Polje; is that correct?
17 A. No -- yes. Yes.
18 Q. Could you take the same pen, that is the blue pen, and mark that
19 area on the photograph.
20 A. I don't know how to indicate this.
21 Q. All right. Can you actually see that area on the photograph?
22 A. Yes, I do. I do see the area that I circled, so if I look at the
23 picture on the right, you can see trees. I don't know what it is. So this
24 is where the Polje is.
25 Q. Just so I can understand better, is there a particular area called
1 Donje Polje?
2 A. I don't know. I only know that every -- that area beginning from
3 Rajlovac is called Polje. Maybe there is an area called Donje Polje, but
4 I don't know.
5 Q. I won't take that any further. You were asked why you had not
6 previously mentioned in your statement the incident involving Haska
7 Dudevic, and you explained that you understand that she is seeking a
8 pension; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. Are there any other people that you know of and who
11 you haven't told us about who were shot in that area?
12 A. I told you. Maybe you didn't understand me correctly. Muharem
13 Mesanovic was also hit not far from here. The UNPROFOR was here and they
14 were cleaning, trying to get rid of some garbage, and he was working for
15 the Civil Defence and he was shot in the stomach and the UNPROFOR members
16 brought him to --
17 Q. I remember you told us about him. I simply wanted to know, yes
18 or no, were there any other people that were shot there that you know
19 about, and perhaps I should also add that you saw shot; yes or no?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr.President, I won't take that any further, given
22 that this is re-examination. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
24 Ms. Pilipovic.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
1 since the question was asked with regards to whether this witness knows
2 about other incidents and since my learned friend asked her to answer with
3 a "yes" or "no," she answered "yes," I would just like to know if she
4 could give us the names of these people and when these incidents occurred
5 since this did not stem from the examination-in-chief.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Menzilovic, first, Ms. Pilipovic is asking
7 whether she is allowed to put any additional questions. So if you would
8 just like to wait. Yes.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't speak against that at
10 all. If that is what the Defence wants to do, then naturally I am happy
11 for the witness to give evidence.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then please proceed.
13 Further cross-examination by Ms. Pilipovic:
14 Q. In answer to a question of my learned friend with regards to the
15 fact whether you know if more people were wounded in that area and you
16 said yes, could you tell us when incidents of this sort would have
17 occurred, in what period of time, and do you know the names?
18 A. I mentioned Muharem. There was also an older man, Moljo Mustafa.
19 He is a neighbour. His house is next to my neighbour -- his house is next
20 to my house, and he was also hit by a sniper. And he told me that he was
21 wounded, however, he was very lucky not to be wounded in bone. And that
22 is with regards to my neighbours. Now, for the others, I don't know if
23 other people were wounded. I know that lots of people were wounded and
24 died, but I don't know who they were exactly.
25 Q. Do you know when did this occur, in what year, in what month?
1 A. What do you mean?
2 Q. Was it in 1992, 1993, and 1994?
3 A. With regards to Poljo Mustafa?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. It was somewhere in 1994, but I wouldn't really tell you the exact
6 date. I wasn't really concerned by that. I just know that when he passed
7 by, he told me.
8 Q. Was it in the beginning of 1994, was it at the end of 1994?
9 A. Please believe me that I really don't know.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
12 Ms. Menzilovic, you have answered the questions of the parties, so
13 many questions that the judges have no further questions to put to you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That means that this concludes your testimony in this
16 Court. It has been quite a journey for you to come here to The Hague, and
17 it is important for this Court to hear the answers of those who have been
18 present during those days at those places, to hear their answers from
19 questions both put by the Prosecution and by the Defence to the witnesses.
20 So I therefore thank you very much for having come to The Hague, and I'll
21 wish, first of all, that your headache is over, and apart from that, a
22 safe trip home again.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I was well
24 treated here and I wish you all the best.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Mr. Usher, could you please
1 escort Ms. Menzilovic out of the courtroom.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through
4 the documents tendered into evidence.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3279X, 360-degree Quicktime movie;
6 Exhibit P1812, photograph; Exhibit P1812A, two photographs marked by
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. They are all
9 admitted into evidence.
10 I saw on your list, Mr. Ierace, that 1A to 11 mentioned before by
11 Ms. Pilipovic was also mentioned -- it might have also created the
12 confusion, but it has not been tendered. I am aware that your next
13 witness will not take much time, at least so as it is indicated, that it
14 was an quarter of an hour. Nevertheless, I am a bit hesitant to start
15 because we have only ten minutes left and I asked already so many times
16 the patience and the cooperation of the booth. I would rather not do it
17 again. Are there any other issues? I think Mr. Piletta-Zanin started
18 telling the Chamber that there was some progress and then I stopped him.
19 If you want to tell us about the progress, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, then please
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. It
22 is not necessary that I inform the Chamber of these progresses. Thank
24 JUDGE ORIE: Is there anything else to -- well, then, I might
25 have -- Madam Registrar, could you please assist me. Ask Mr. Usher, give
1 one copy to both parties. I have got two copies. This is a form which
2 should be used when there is any problem in respect of legibility of
3 documents. It should be filled in the following way. The document number
4 concerned. If it is not the whole document, those ERN pages it deals
5 with. Then the third row needs some explanation. It says, "communicated
6 to the counsel of the other party when." That means when has the
7 complaint about illegibility recently, so I am not talking about a year
8 ago, but when that has been recently brought to the attention of the other
9 party, then when the answer was received, then why the answer is
10 unsatisfactory, because that would cause the Chamber to deal with it.
11 Whatever additional observations are to be made.
12 The form also gives the opportunity to the other party if, for
13 example, the Defence would complain about illegibility, that the
14 Prosecution could write its comments on this form and then the form may be
15 submitted to the Chamber. And the copies of the documents concerned or
16 the pages, the ERN pages, should be attached to it. This is the way we
17 are dealing with illegible or badly legible documents. The Chamber is not
18 happy that it has to deal with it and for certain it is that better care
19 could have been taken of providing legible documents. But nevertheless,
20 whether we like it or not, the problem is often there and we would like to
21 deal with it in an efficient way. So this is the form to be used,
22 documents to be attached, give all the information, state what the answer
23 of the other party is, why it is an unsatisfactory, give the other party
24 to add what they want to add and it can be given to the other party. Mr.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence thanks the Chamber
2 for your efforts by drafting and preparing this document, but the Defence
3 nevertheless wishes to underline the following: Is the fact that we have
4 to look through these documents to examine these documents, to sift
5 through is a huge endeavour. It is an almost an impossible task that you
6 are asking us to do. There are dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands, and for
7 each of these documents we have to fill out a form, we will spend an
8 incredible amount of time.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It is good that you make the comment, Mr.
10 Piletta-Zanin, because I might not have been clear enough.
11 JUDGE ORIE: This form is not meant in order to go through the
12 thousands of documents, but is in order to deal with specifically those
13 documents indicated on the list which is presented by the Prosecution, the
14 list of documents that are going to be presented on short notice. So I
15 would understand. I wouldn't ask from the Defence to go through 5.000
16 documents and to sift out whenever is illegible. But this is just in
17 order to prevent that we are confronted with a problem of a specific
18 document at the -- I have now got something quite new on my screen, I must
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Technical difficulties sometimes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have some technicians on my screen. But that
22 is the way -- that is how we intend that the parties will use this form.
23 As you might have noticed, this is the second form the Chamber has given
24 to you. We always have taken it that if the Defence fills in no date and
25 no crosses on the other form, that there are no problems as far as the
1 disclosure of exhibits or whether in a good language has taken place
2 similar to them from previous statements that are also mentioned on the
3 other form. This new form, however, needs to be presented to the other
4 party as well. So it is not just by filling in one party, it should be
5 filled in by the other party as well. If there are no comments by the
6 other party, just fill in none. Fine. Initials. We want to be sure
7 about communication that has taken place before we are confronted with
8 these type of problems in this courtroom.
9 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
11 will reiterate, I do thank the Chamber for its kind assistance. This will
12 resolve in portion the problem that we have in terms of communicating with
13 the Prosecution. But there are tens of thousands of documents that exist
14 and there is some information in those documents that are useful for the
15 Defence and if those documents are in the same illegible state that you
16 have seen, well then we are hindered once again. We cannot trace back the
17 elements that could be of any assistance to us because the documents are
18 illegible. So I would like to reiterate our position. It is clear that
19 all the documents such as medical documents, those documents are extremely
20 important and they are either badly photocopied or they are completely
21 illegible. We would ask for the production of the originals and this is
22 when we will be able to see clearly what is going on. Thank you.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my friend has just referred to there
24 being tens of thousands of documents. That makes clear that he is
25 referring to reciprocal disclosure. The obligation of the Prosecution is
1 to make available for inspection those documents, not to copy them. We
2 have copied them. We have been criticised by the Defence for the quality
3 of the copies. If my friend has any further complaints about documents
4 which are given to him under a reciprocal disclosure obligation, not the
5 documents we propose to tender, then the remedy is to inform us of the ERN
6 number and he can inspect them. We will not provide further copies given
7 the problems which under helpful cause under talk has not been acceded.
8 Mr. President, might I raise one other related issue. Yesterday
9 when I asked for the Defence to indicate how many copies of the documents
10 that they complained about they had received, the Defence replied that
11 they had received the documents in question yesterday on three occasions
12 and they could not comment on the legibility of the copies given to them
13 before December because they had destroyed them.
14 There is an order still operating from the Pre-Trial Chamber from
15 the year 2000 that all material which is provided to the Defence and which
16 is not tendered, must be returned to the Prosecution. That is an order
17 which operates in conjunction with another order, that the Defence is not
18 to inform anyone, other than the accused, of the contents of the material
19 which they receive, quite clearly without the leave of the Trial Chamber
20 and there is a specific provision I think in relation to access by
22 Therefore, if that material has been destroyed, it should not have
23 been destroyed because it is in contravention of an order, at least in
24 terms of the future. It could seem from the order that it follows quite
25 simply that if my friends don't have enough space to store this material
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 and they want to get rid of it, because that is what they said yesterday,
2 then they should return it. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
5 terribly sorry, but I did not say yesterday that we have destroyed those
6 documents. I only said that it is possible that and quite likely that
7 they may have been destroyed. But I did not affirm before this Chamber
8 that I had described the documents never --
9 JUDGE ORIE: First, my first observation is that the Defence has
10 repeatedly asked for originals to be provided to them. Under the
11 disclosure obligations, the Prosecution is not under an obligation to
12 provide originals of documents of which they only have copies. If there
13 would be a very specific issue on which the Defence has a specific
14 interest on having originals, apart from that, they can inspect the
15 documents as they are in the hands of the Prosecution, they could always
16 ask whether the Prosecution could assist in getting the originals. But
17 then of course it should be a very specific reason because it goes beyond
18 the obligations of the Prosecution. That is number one.
19 The second observation I would like to make is that I always
20 understood that if material has to be returned to the Prosecution, that
21 is, in order to prevent that it will remain in the hands of the other
22 party, I don't know whether the rule and whether the order says something
23 specific on repeatedly provided documents. So I would not say it is as
24 clear as what to do with other documents which are the same ones that
25 provided before. But perhaps if these are large quantities of documents
1 and not just one or two pieces of paper which you could put in a shredder,
2 then perhaps the Defence then gets in touch with the Prosecution and see
3 whether the other ones can be returned. I again took three minutes from
4 the booth. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, same time.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
6 1:48 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
7 the 11th day of April, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.