1 Thursday, 11 April 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please be so kind to call
6 the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Mundis, we still owe you a decision, but I'd first like to
11 have -- but before doing so, we would like to turn into private session.
12 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE ORIE: I see on my screen we are in open session again.
3 Mr. Mundis, is the Prosecution ready to call the next witness?
4 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President. The Prosecution calls
5 Mr. Habib Trto.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness into
7 the courtroom.
8 Good morning, Mr. Trto, I assume. Do you hear me in a
9 language you understand?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trto, before I will ask you to make a solemn
12 declaration, I first of all inform you that the Chamber has just given a
13 decision that the protective measures you asked for, that is, facial
14 distortion, are granted. So your face cannot be seen from the outside
15 world. Mr. Trto, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make
16 a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and
17 nothing but the truth at the beginning of your testimony. The text of
18 this declaration will now be handed out to you by the usher and I invite
19 you to make that solemn declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Mr. Trto.
23 WITNESS: HABIB TRTO
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Examined by Mr. Mundis:
3 Q. For the record, witness, can you please state your full name and
4 your date of birth, please.
5 A. My name is Habib Trto and I was born on the 25th of April, 1966 in
7 Q. Mr. Trto, from the time of your birth to the present, have you
8 continued to live in the city of Sarajevo? I am not sure if that answer
9 was audible.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I don't hear any translation.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not working very well.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please assist in putting the
13 microphone a put further to the witness. I heard the witness say "da,"
14 which by now we all understand means "yes."
15 MR. MUNDIS:
16 Q. It is true that you have lived in Sarajevo your whole life; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes, thank God.
19 Q. And Mr. Trto, do you recall the approximate month and year or date
20 on which the war began in Sarajevo?
21 A. The war began in 1992, in early March, because that is when some
22 people started walking around with rifles and I think if you see somebody
23 walking around your house with a rifle, that his intentions are likely
24 not to be very good.
25 Q. When the war began, what was your employment status? Were you
1 working at the time and, if so, how were you employed?
2 A. Yes. I worked as a tram driver.
3 Q. Did you continue to work as a tram driver throughout the war?
4 A. No, not throughout the war. When the shelling of Sarajevo began,
5 I think that the first company that came under fire was the city public
6 transport so that the most of the trams were destroyed, were decimated,
7 and people were let off.
8 Q. At the time the war began, Mr. Trto, were you married?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What was your wife's name?
11 A. Edina Trto.
12 Q. And at the time the war began, how long had you been married?
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. We didn't hear the
15 JUDGE ORIE: We do understand it is not easy for you, Mr. Trto,
16 but could you please try to speak louder because the interpreters have to
17 hear you and translate it into a language we understand. So if it would
18 be possible to speak a bit louder, it would be highly appreciated.
19 Mr. Mundis.
20 MR. MUNDIS:
21 Q. Again, Mr. Trto, at the time the war began, how long had you been
23 A. Four or five years. Five years, let's say.
24 Q. Did you and your wife have any children?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I would like to turn your attention to September of 1993. During
2 that month, where were you living in the city of Sarajevo?
3 A. We lived in Klara Zetkin Street. I think the number was 11 or 13,
4 I think. I can't remember exactly, but that is in Alipasino Polje.
5 Q. During the summer and early fall of 1993, did your wife regularly
6 visit her mother in the city of Sarajevo?
7 A. Yes, she would visit her.
8 Q. And where was your mother-in-law living at that time, in what part
9 of the city?
10 A. Quite near to where we lived, maybe a few kilometres. The name is
11 Dolac Malta. And the name of the street, I think it was Ivana Krndelja
13 Q. And when your wife would go and visit her mother, how would she
14 get there?
15 A. In most cases, she went with me. I escorted her myself, my wife
16 and my child would go there. But on that day I was not there, so she went
17 there alone with the child.
18 Q. And when you say that you escorted her, she did she usually go on
19 foot, that is, she would walk to her mother's?
20 A. It was the safest way to get around the city of Sarajevo.
21 Q. At that time in the summer and early fall of 1993, were you aware
22 of incidents involving sniper shooting at civilians in the city of
24 A. Yes, there was shooting all over the city. You could not walk
25 around normally. You had to avoid the main intersections, and every
1 street that had a line of sight to the hills, it was not safe. You could
2 not go there.
3 Q. Did there come a time in 1993 when your wife was shot by a sniper?
4 A. Unfortunately, yes.
5 Q. Do you recall a date of that incident?
6 A. Yes, the 26th of September, between 11.00 and 12.00 a.m.
7 Q. I would like to draw your attention to that day, 26 September,
8 1993. Do you remember what you were doing that day from the time you
9 first woke up in the morning?
10 A. Since I was subject to military obligation, I was a conscript and
11 there was a state of war not only in Sarajevo but in the whole of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina and everybody was able to carry rifle -- I don't mean a
13 rifle per se, but able to bear arms were conscripts. And I was in the
14 army; I was a courier and I was carrying the mail to the command, and I
15 had an opportunity to visit my house.
16 I sat down with my wife and the phone rang at one point. It was
17 her mother. She spoke to her and they agreed that they would meet at the
18 Cengic Vila. They did meet there. I went back and she went to Cengic
19 Vila to meet with her mother. And then at around noon I was notified that
20 my wife had been injured. And I said, well, thank God, she is only
21 injured. So I went to my wife's mother. But at first she didn't know
22 herself what had happened. She just knew that shots had been fired and
23 that she was hit by a sniper. She didn't know whether she was alive or
24 just wounded perhaps. I went there. There was a first aid point, I don't
25 know what else to call it, maybe 50 metres away from that place, and I
1 asked what had happened. They told me that they had taken her to the
2 emergency room. And then I asked myself why to the emergency, why not the
3 hospital, because usually only the dead bodies are taken to the emergency.
4 Q. At the time your wife was shot, were any other people with her, to
5 your knowledge?
6 A. There was my child. When my wife was hit, she was holding my
7 daughter by her hand and her mother was there too. Unfortunately, she is
8 not -- she is not alive any more. She died in 1996. She just couldn't
9 take it any more. She couldn't go on living.
10 Q. When you say "she died in 1996," are you referring to your
11 mother-in-law or to your daughter?
12 A. My mother-in-law.
13 Q. Mr. Trto, after learning that your wife had been taken to the
14 emergency, as you have described it, did you in fact go to the emergency
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And what did you discover upon arriving at the emergency?
18 A. These were actually the basements of the emergency ward and that
19 probably used to be garages before the war. There were quite a few dead
20 bodies there. I was not really interested in them. I went from room to
21 room trying to find my wife. Unfortunately, I found her. She was lying
22 there in a corner on a metal gurney. It was a table of sorts. I don't
23 know what it was used before. She was lying there, she had two wounds.
24 Both of them were to her arm. One of the wound was such that the bullet
25 struck her arm and went straight through her heart, so that probably
1 caused her death. I am not a medical expert, but that would be a
2 reasonable explanation.
3 MR. MUNDIS: With the assistance of the usher, I would like the
4 witness to be shown the documents which have been marked P1675 and P1673.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please assist Mr. Mundis, Mr. Usher.
6 MR. MUNDIS:
7 Q. Mr. Trto, I would like you to turn first to the document that is
8 marked P1675 in the upper right-hand corner. I would ask you to take a
9 look through that document and tell us if there are pages in that document
10 that you have seen before.
11 A. Yes, I do recognise this document.
12 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document is and what the
13 various pages in this document consist of, please.
14 A. This page, the first page, I didn't see the description of the
15 events and so I never saw this page.
16 Q. When you say "this page," Mr. Trto, if you could specify what page
17 you are referring by the numbers that are stamped on the page, perhaps the
18 last two numbers of the document, which page you are referring to.
19 A. 04.
20 Q. Okay, let's turn to page null 5. Have you seen that page before,
21 that document?
22 A. I don't quite understand your question. Some of these documents I
23 see for the first time, with the exception of the document 08, 09 and
24 document 11. These documents, I saw for the first time during the
25 preparation for the testimony because, before that, I never saw these
1 documents. These are some police reports.
2 Q. Okay. Let me turn your attention then to pages 08 and 09. You
3 have seen these pages before; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what is the document that bears the number 08 and 09?
6 A. This document is a death certificate for my deceased wife, and I
7 asked for this document to be issued because I needed some papers for my
8 child, since she had to receive a sort of payment of 50 marks as
9 compensation. So this is the reason why I asked to be issued with this
10 certificate. I went to the emergency ward in order to get this.
11 Q. Do you recall the date, or perhaps on the form itself you will see
12 the date when you actually requested this death certificate?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask the witness to come closer to the
14 microphone or could we perhaps approach the microphones closer to the
15 witness. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher could you...
17 A. Yes, here we can read that it was issued on the 23rd of March
18 1993. See, in Sarajevo, and maybe everywhere else in the world, the way
19 we proceed is the following: You need to issue these certificates or you
20 have to report the death to the competent organ in due time. I didn't
21 know that there is a delay. So when I asked for this death certificate to
22 be issued at the municipality in the town house, I had to bring a
23 certificate that my wife was indeed dead. And then I gave that
24 certificate to the town house, and then I had to wait for a decision to be
25 rendered by the police station. So it's a sort of paper issued to me by
1 the police station which would enable me to get a death certificate, the
2 excerpt from the registry of the dead. So it is a very complicated
4 Q. And if you turn to page 09 and look in box 16 --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, before you continue, may I ask you one
6 question. Of course, as you understand, the Chamber tries to read the
7 translation as well. What I see on page with ERN number 08 in the
8 translation, that is not the last one, but the one before, the translation
9 ends at number 14. Then it says there's no page 0026-9009. It seems to
10 me that you are now turning to that very page which is not translated, as
11 far as I can see, unless I overlooked a translation. I am specifically
12 dealing with -- well, let's say on 09, it continues with number 15 where
13 08 ends with 14. And I think the witness is explaining what might be the
14 date of issue.
15 MR. MUNDIS: That is correct, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And that is on page 09, but I don't see a translation
17 for 09. Do you have a translation?
18 MR. MUNDIS: No, we don't, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is able to detect this in approximately
20 30 seconds. Wouldn't it have been proper for the Prosecution to check
21 after the experience of the last couple of weeks, at least to check every
22 single document you are presenting. There is a whole page missing. It is
23 not a detail.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, I understand that, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is a matter of translation so if you have
1 any questions in respect of page 09, would you please first ask the
2 witness to read what it is about, if you are questioning him about. I do
3 understand that all the members of the Defence team, the General Galic
4 included, can read page 09 so it might be solved by providing us with
5 a proper translation soon. So, please proceed. But you can't imagine
6 that this doesn't make us very happy.
7 MR. MUNDIS: I understand, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you are very
10 kind, but this is a technical document in the Serbian language and your
11 humble servant does not have a transparent access to it, this is an issue
12 I wanted to raise, but it was already raised, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
14 MR. MUNDIS:
15 Q. Mr. Trto, if you could turn the block number 16 on page 09.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you please read the first two words next to the number 16.
18 A. It is written "cause of death."
19 Q. Can you then look to the box below that where the date is
20 specified? Can you read what that says, please.
21 A. It is written "In Sarajevo -- underneath we have the date
22 23rd/03/1994 and there is a signature of a doctor. It is a medical doctor
23 called Popovic or Dizparevic. I don't really see the name clearly.
24 Q. Would that be the approximate date that you approached the
25 authorities for the issuance of this death certificate?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I ask you now if you can turn to page 11 of this document, and can
3 you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber what this page is.
4 A. This page contains a statement. I declared in the statement that
5 my wife was killed and that she was buried at the Alfakovac cemetery.
6 Q. Now, if you could, Mr. Trto, I would ask you to turn to page 6 of
7 this document, page 06. If you could now compare page 06 of P1675 with
8 the document, the other document that is before you, P1673. Do these
9 documents appear to be the same document with P1673 being more legible
10 than the page marked 06?
11 A. I think so that. It is the same thing.
12 MR. MUNDIS: The usher can retrieve the documents from the
14 MR. MUNDIS:
15 Q. Mr. Trto, at the time of her death, how old was your wife?
16 A. My wife was born on or in 1968, so she was 24 years old. At the
17 time, 25, if you will.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Trto.
19 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions, Mr.
21 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask if the Defence is ready to cross-examine
22 the witness. You will now be examined, Mr. Trto by counsel for the
24 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
1 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Trto, good morning?
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. Can you confirm that on the 18th of November, 1995, you gave a
5 statement to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor?
6 A. What date?
7 Q. On the 18th of November, 1995.
8 A. Believe me when I tell you that I really cannot remember the dates
10 Q. If I show you a document bearing your signature, would you then be
11 able to confirm the date?
12 A. Sure.
13 Q. Just a moment, please. I am looking for the statement in the
14 English language. Mr. Trto, the usher will show you a statement. Would
15 you be able to confirm to us if this statement bears your signature, and
16 if the date on which you gave the statement is the correct date? The
17 statement is in the English language.
18 A. Yes, this is my signature.
19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Trto, you told us today in answering a question
20 put to you by my learned friend that, according to you, the war in
21 Sarajevo began in the month of March of 1992.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The cause of this conflict, was it preceded by some events that in
24 some way punctuated the events that would follow?
25 A. I really don't know. To be very honest with you, I do not follow
1 the media. I only know that my neighbours and some other people were
2 carrying weapons. There were barricades erected all over town. There
3 were men with hats and they were saying that they were Serbs, whereas I
4 consider that this is not a Serb army. I don't even know how to tell
5 you. It is our own local Serbs. And if you want to call them Serbs, I
6 would make a mistake. I couldn't call them Serbs.
7 Q. So you are telling us that in the month of March, in the city, and
8 more precisely in the part of the city where you lived in 1992, that there
9 were barricades which, according to you, were erected by the Serbs?
10 A. Would you please be kind enough not to call them Serbs,
11 but "them." They were not Serbs. You cannot call them Serbs, these
12 people. Because in Sarajevo, there were Serbs who lived throughout the
13 whole war. Do you understand what I am telling you?
14 Q. Were there any barricades in Sarajevo erected by the Muslims?
15 A. I really didn't hear about that. It is quite possible that there
16 were some, but I didn't know about it. I was not really interested by
17 that fact. I was more taking care of my family and I was working.
18 Q. Do you know if on the 1st of March in Bascarsija, a Serbian guest
19 was at a wedding, was killed, and that was the cause, the initial cause of
20 the conflict that escalated later on in Sarajevo?
21 A. I really don't know how to answer this question.
22 Q. You told us that you were a conscript, so you were a member of the
23 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us when did you become a member of the army of BH?
1 A. Well, I was a tram driver and then I couldn't really tell you the
2 exact date but sometime around -- I don't know, maybe early -- at the very
3 beginning, it was -- actually, it was part of the Territorial Defence. It
4 wasn't even a Territorial Defence, if you wish, because they were looking
5 for people within the local communes and they were looking to create some
6 formations. I lived to Sokolovic Kolonija, and that was shelled in April.
7 But I can't really tell you the exact date of the event in question.
8 For me, it was something quite new or, rather, in life, I had no idea what
9 a shell was and then all of a sudden I was hearing it and the whole house
10 was shaking. We were -- we lived in Sokolovic Kolonija. We walked there
11 and there a big construction machine on that road, and I can't really
12 remember what day it was but it was the day of the shelling and there were
13 a great deal of soldiers there. There were members of the JNA, reserve
14 members, and nobody could say that they were not reserve soldiers because
15 there was a tank there. And then I was driving the tram and I couldn't
16 really go back. I wanted to go back, but I was not able to go back. They
17 called me --
18 Q. And this is when you moved?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In the part of town called Alipasino Polje?
21 A. First I went to live at my sister's. She lives in Dolac Malta.
22 And from there because the wife of my wife, my mother-in-law, was in 1992
23 chased away from Grbavica. First she was expelled and then, at the
24 beginning of 1993, her father was also expelled from Grbavica, and we all
25 lived in one apartment. We were six or seven living in one apartment.
1 You know how it was.
2 Q. When did you become a member of the Territorial Defence?
3 A. It wasn't really the Territorial Defence per se. I don't really
4 know how to call it. In June, probably, when really everybody had to
5 join. There was no other way to stay alive, to have food or anything
6 like that.
7 Q. So then up until the month of June of 1992, you were a driver; you
8 were employed as such?
9 A. In the month of May, I think, I can't really tell you the precise
10 date. But in May they started to shoot on tramways in Skenderija, and
11 after that moment, the tramways were no longer operational. They were
12 burning tramways.
13 Q. When you say that there was a tramway that was set on fire in
14 Skenderija, was that the consequence of a paramilitary formation attack?
15 Members of the units of Juka Prazina and the green berets, when they
16 attacked the caserne, or the barracks actually, when members of the JNA
17 were killed, is this when the setting on the tramway on fire occurred?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. I am just asking you if you know if that is linked to that event,
20 is that the same event, say yes or no?
21 A. I watched it on TV, I wasn't present. Do you understand me? I do
22 not know who was killed there. I can't tell you.
23 Q. Witness, I am only asking you if you know that that was that
24 incident. If you do not know, you don't have to answer.
25 A. I really don't understand the question.
1 Q. When you became a member of the Territorial Defence, where did you
2 report, to which headquarters of the Territorial Defence?
3 A. It was not the headquarters of the Territorial Defence, it was
4 just a local commune.
5 Q. Where was it?
6 A. On Malta.
7 Q. Can you tell us on what street, and was it inside the building
8 where people lived? Was it an apartment building or was it an office
10 A. I really cannot remember.
11 Q. You told us that you were a courier?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell us what military formation was that? To which
14 military unit did you belong and where did you work as a courier?
15 A. After I was wounded, I became a courier.
16 Q. Can you tell us when were you wounded?
17 A. When they attacked Otes on the 6th of December.
18 Q. So you are telling us that as member of the BH army, you took
19 part in the battle of Otes?
20 A. No, I did not take part in the battle, I was defending Otes.
21 Q. What military unit was operational at the time and when did you
22 take part in the combat regarding Otes in 1992?
23 A. It was the 3rd Motorised Brigade.
24 Q. Can you tell us where the headquarters of the 3rd Motorised
25 Brigade was locate, where was the command post of that brigade?
1 A. I didn't know at the time.
2 Q. You didn't know at the time. Later on, as a courier, did you find
4 A. In the industrial area, it was on Stup.
5 Q. Was it the electric distribution building?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us if in 1992, when you took part in the combat and
8 the fighting involving Otes, how were you dressed? Did you have any
9 weapons? Did you wear a uniform? What kind of weapons did you have?
10 A. Personally I did not carry any weapons because it was just a few
11 rifles available, and if they knew that we were so well armed, they
12 would have walked through Sarajevo. Maybe we had one rifle for 20
14 Q. When we talk about the battle for Otes, was there also the
15 police of the army of BH, were there any special MUP units exist, any
16 special commandment under Juka Prazina participating?
17 A. Do not go further from the subject that concerns us. I came to
18 testify about the death of my wife about not the military.
19 Q. Mr. Trto, you told us that you were a courier in the BH army after
20 you were wounded. So as of the month of December, 1992, can you tell us
21 as such, what were your part -- what were you doing, what were your
23 A. I don't know how you know that I was a courier. Probably from
24 this document. I was carrying mail. I did all the jobs linked to a job
25 of a courier. I was heavily wounded.
1 Q. As a courier, therefore, as a soldier belonging to the BH army,
2 did you distribute mail to military units?
3 A. No. I was sort of a local courier. I was the internal, for the
4 internal units. Could you please just ask me questions relating to the
5 death of my wife.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trto, perhaps I should explain to you, if you
7 have any difficulties in answering questions, would you please ask me to
8 intervene and not start a debate with Defence counsel. I have to explain
9 to you that you have been called by the Prosecution as we have heard
10 because the Prosecution did want to put questions to you in relation to
11 the death of your wife. On the other hand, being here as a witness, the
12 Defence is entitled to ask you also questions about other subjects of
13 course related to the situation, the war situation which existed at that
14 time in Sarajevo. If you have any difficulties, please tell me but be
15 aware that the Defence is also entitled to ask about what you know about
16 the general circumstances. The accused has been charged with more than
17 just the incident in which your wife died and you have been -- since you
18 are now in this courtroom, you might have knowledge, information, which
19 might be useful to the Defence as well. So I invite you to answer the
20 questions of the Defence, and if you have any difficulties in doing so,
21 please address me. Yes?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Trto, in the course of examination-in-chief, you told my
1 learned colleague from the Prosecution that you were a courier at the
2 command of the BH army. Can you tell us where was the command post
3 located? In other words, where is it that you went to work in the BH army
4 command and what military formation was there that this was the command
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... said that he was
7 working at the command.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague is
9 following the transcript in English, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Perhaps there is
10 a problem with the interpretation. On page 6, line 5, the witness said
11 that he carried mail to the command so he had to work there because it was
12 part of his job. So page 6, line 5.
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... misrepresenting
14 the evidence of the witness. Carrying mail to the headquarters is not the
15 same as working at the headquarters. But perhaps you could rephrase your
16 question, Ms. Pilipovic, and then please proceed.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
18 Q. Witness, as a courier, you carried mail to the command. Can you
19 please tell us what command it was and where it was located.
20 A. In 1993 - I don't know the exact month - it was transferred to the
21 Dalekovod, which is located in the industrial area, and there was also
22 a detached part of the command in another location, Valter Peric, and my
23 route was from Valter Peric to the Dalekovod building.
24 Q. Can you please tell us, the Valter Peric building, in what street
25 was it?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Well, I don't know because in peacetime I never went back to Stup,
2 and I was there only in wartime.
3 Q. So you tell us that the Valter Peric building where the command
4 was where you carried mail, that it was at Stup. That is as much as you
5 can tell us?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What military formation was located in the Valter Peric building?
8 A. I don't know the answer to that question.
9 Q. Were soldiers, ABiH soldiers, in the Valter Peric building, and
10 if yes, what unit they belonged to?
11 A. Probably the 3rd Motorised Brigade because it belonged to them.
12 Q. Can you please tell us -- I believe that I did ask this question
13 but I don't -- I am not sure whether I elicited the answer. How were
14 members of the 3rd Motorised Brigade dressed?
15 A. I can't really remember. Later on, when the military was
16 structured properly -- I am not really an expert in these military
17 matters, but everybody wore some kind of uniform, the camouflage uniforms
18 of sorts. Nobody was wearing civilian clothes or hardly anybody came to
19 work in civilian clothes.
20 Q. Mr. Trto, you confirmed that you gave a statement to the Office of
21 the Prosecutor on the 18th of November, 1995. I will now quote a line
22 from your statement on page 1. That would be page 2 of 0013544. When
23 asked the question by my learned colleague, you stated that the incident
24 happened on the 26th of September, 1993, that that is when your wife was
25 killed. In your statement you said, "On about the 24th of September,
1 1993, I came back from the front line and my wife Edina told me that she
2 wanted to visit her mother."
3 A. Well, there is something wrong with that because I came home on
4 the 26th of September, in the morning, and I sat down with my wife. We in
5 the military were issued cigarettes, and since cigarettes cost 15 or 20
6 marks, we were trying to make do like everybody else, and sometimes I
7 would give her half a pack of cigarettes and sometimes even more. Please,
8 let me finish.
9 Q. Mr. Trto, did you state that you came back from the line?
10 A. That is absurd because I was not on the line. After I was
11 wounded, after the events at Otes, I never went to the line. I simply
12 didn't want to risk my life to go somewhere like that. I didn't want to
13 go any further away from the Valter Peric building.
14 Q. Can you please explain to us how come that in your statement that
15 you gave to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor, it is
16 stated that on around -- on about the 24th of September, 1993, you came
17 back from the line? Did you in fact state that?
18 A. No, I did not state that. I said that on the 26th of September, I
19 had come home in the morning, gave my wife some cigarettes and spoke to
20 her for a while, and then the phone rang. Perhaps this is --
21 Q. Mr. Trto, when you gave a statement to the investigators of the
22 Office of the Prosecutor, in which language did you give your statement?
23 A. I gave it in my language, Bosnian language.
24 Q. Did you sign a -- your statement in Serbian or in English?
25 A. Not in Serbian, in Bosnian.
1 Q. Did you sign your statement in your mother tongue or in the
2 English language?
3 A. I can't remember. Your Honour, could I we provided with this
4 document so that I can see the documents we are talking about?
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's the document which been shown to you on
6 which your signature appears. But if you would like to see it again.
7 Mr. Usher, could you please assist.
8 Do you speak or read any English, Mr. Trto?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can have the translation, too?
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I will give the statement to the
11 witness, both in the English language and in his mother tongue as
12 specified by the witness. I have underlined this part so perhaps, Mr.
13 Usher, if you could show this to the witness.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot see anything that is
15 underlined here.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, can you please read what is written there because we want
18 to hear your words in the courtroom. We want to check whether what I have
19 read to you is indeed correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... the underlined
21 part, Ms. Pilipovic.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. Please, could you just read what has been underlined here. If you
24 can read it out loud, just this one line.
25 A. I read it, but I don't see my signature here.
1 Q. Sir, could you please read what is provided to you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Your signature is, as far as I understand, is on the
3 English translation. This Chamber has not the statement in front of it,
4 so if you please read just the line or the sentence which is underlined,
5 aloud, please.
6 A. It is written here, "On the 24th of September, 1993, I came back
7 from the line and my wife Edina." This is not correct. I never stated
8 this and I never signed this.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like Mr. Usher to give the
10 statement back to me, if possible.
11 Q. So, Mr. Trto, what you are saying is that the things that are
12 stated in the statement given to the Office of the Prosecutor are not
13 correct; is that right?
14 A. On the 24th of September, I was not there. I said quite clearly
15 that it was on the 26th. Maybe it was mistranslated, but I can tell you
16 one thing, you don't -- in such occasions, you don't really know what you
17 are saying and where you were. But I am telling you now, I was there
18 sitting down with my wife on the 26th of September, and I just want to
19 tell you, if I gave you a document in Chinese now --
20 Q. I just want to make -- to let you know that you signed a statement
21 in the English language where it says the 24th. So it's your signature
23 A. It is possible that it is some kind of mistake.
24 Q. So you claim that you never said that this happened on the 24th?
25 A. No, I did not.
1 Q. Mr. Trto, can you please tell us, on that day when you were
2 notified that your wife had been hit, had been shot, can you please tell
3 us do you have any knowledge whether -- do you know whether the police
4 attended the scene of the event?
5 A. I know that on on-site investigation was carried out.
6 Q. After the police carried out the on-site investigation, did they
7 also speak to you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you familiar with the contents of the official report drafted
10 by the officers from the Novi Sarajevo police station?
11 A. No. This is the first time that I see it.
12 Q. You said that you looked at your wife when you identified her in
13 the emergency ward premises. I think you said that she had two wounds.
14 A. As far as I can remember, I think there were. But believe me, at
15 that moment I was not really interested in how many wounds there were.
16 The important thing was that she was no longer alive.
17 Q. I understand that this is really difficult for you, but you said
18 that you looked at her and that you saw that there was a wound to her arm
19 and also, if I remember correctly, you said that there was another wound?
20 A. I saw two wounds or, in fact, there was blood in two places. I
21 saw also something on her side because she was lying there. I don't know
22 whether it was on the left or on the right side. I can't remember any
23 more. But you could see where the bullet had gone through her lungs. I
24 didn't really look very closely. I just wanted to get out because I felt
25 really bad.
1 Q. Do you know from what position fire was opened that day on the
2 date when your wife was killed?
3 A. Well, that day, in the morning, there wasn't much shooting, much
4 fighting going on. So when they went there, I spoke to my mother-in-law
5 and she said that it was a quiet day. They met at the Cengic Vila, across
6 a small bridge, and there was a small market there where people sold
7 cigarettes and stuff like that.
8 Q. Can you tell us, from the point where your wife was killed, how
9 far away from that point were the front lines? Do you have any knowledge
10 of that?
11 A. I don't really know because I never measured it as you would say.
12 But there is a part that is open between the two buildings. It is a
13 parking lot. And the only place that has a line of sight to that area is
14 Sanac. Now, this is what I heard, that their lines were at Sanac.
15 Q. When you say "Sanac," can you be more specific what part of the
16 city is that? Is that Hrasno Grbavica, Hrasno Brdo?
17 A. I don't know exactly because, as children, we called it Sanac and
18 that is what it is still called in Sarajevo. I don't know any other
19 name. I do know, however, that it is above Hrasno, further up from
20 Hrasno. If you look from Dolac Malta where the tramlines are going, it is
21 not to the right, but to the left. It is above the transit.
22 Q. Do you know or did you check at a later stage, you personally,
23 whether the positions of the BH army and of the Republika Srpska army were
24 there? Did you learn after the incident about that?
25 A. Well, no, I didn't learn that. But fire was opened all the time
1 on the intersection at the Dolac Malta. I believe that the BH army was
2 not there in that area where they would be able to operate because later
3 on I went there and I stood there, waiting for them to shoot me, but they
4 didn't open fire on me, because I just didn't care whether I would live or
6 Q. So you tell us that you went to that area, to that spot, which
7 you said was the place from which fire was opened. What street was that?
8 A. No, I did not go to the place from which fire was opened. I went
9 to the place where my wife was killed. If you don't believe me, I will
10 take you by the hand and lead you to that spot in Sarajevo
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I remind you that you took as much
12 time and --
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. I just
14 have a few more questions.
15 Q. Can you please tell us how far way from that spot where you stood
16 where your wife was killed to the other place?
17 A. Maybe 300, 400 metres.
18 Q. So how far away is it from that direction? You say it is 400 to
19 500 metres?
20 A. Yes, yes, thereabouts. It seems to be a mistake in translation.
21 It isn't 300, but 400 to 500.
22 Q. Were there any positions of the BH army or Republika Srpska army
24 A. I don't know. I am not a military expert.
25 Q. Mr. Trto, in the course of the examination-in-chief, you were
1 shown a document number 0026-9011.
2 Could I please ask Mr. Usher to show the witness the document
3 containing this page. There are two pages, 0026-9011 --
4 JUDGE ORIE: It is P1675.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] 73, 75, thank you. No, 75, thank
7 Q. Mr. Trto, now I would like you to go to the statement that you
8 signed. Do you see here this?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you confirm that the date is the 12th of December, 1994; can
11 you confirm that? The 12th of October, 1994.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you write this statement or did you just sign it?
14 A. I just signed it. I didn't write it myself.
15 Q. So you tell us that you merely signed this statement?
16 A. Yes, you can quite clearly see the difference in the handwriting.
17 Q. Can you tell us why did you go to the public security station or
18 the police station and sign this statement there? Whose initiative was
20 A. I don't really remember. I simply can't remember. I don't
21 remember any of it. After all, I am not a computer -- we had three years
22 of war.
23 Q. Can you please tell us, we are not talking about the dates of the
24 24th of September 1993. We spoke about the 26th of September, 1993. Do
25 you know whether in the period of the 24th, 25th and 26th that there
1 were any conflicts between the BH army units and that the commander Musan
2 Topalovic was killed, and that in those days and on those nights that the
3 citizens of Sarajevo were exposed to fire opened by those military
4 formations? Do you know anything about that?
5 A. No.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Your Honour. We have no
7 further questions.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any need to re-examine the witness.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Two questions.
10 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:
11 Q. At page 23, line 3, you made reference to, and I quote: "their
12 lines at Sanac." When you say "their lines," what military force or
13 forces were you referring to?
14 A. Well, I have repeated this so many times and I will repeat it once
15 again. This was not a religious war, nobody can tell me that. There were
16 Serbs in Sarajevo. I know about Sarajevo but not for other towns.
17 Sometimes you couldn't know what was happening in other buildings, but
18 these people lived side by side with us. They went with us to fetch
19 water. They were also being killed. I wanted to say "them." I didn't
20 want to say Serbs because what do you call the people who lived side by
21 side with us?
22 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand your feelings. I think Mr. Mundis
23 would like to know when you talk about lines whether you want to refer to
24 the lines of the armed forces of Republika Srpska or the armed forces of
25 the Bosnia-Herzegovina. So I think that is what he wants to know, not
1 what ethnicity these lines were held by. Yes.
2 A. Yes, I understand. Well, of the army of Republika Srpska, that is
3 what I meant.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mundis
5 MR. MUNDIS:
6 Q. Do you know if the Ozrenska Street is in the area of Sanac?
7 A. I think it is.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Trto, no further questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi would like to put a question to you as
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I have just a very brief question
14 for you, sir. You said that your wife had been expelled from the place
15 where she lived and that was in Grbavica, I believe, that your
16 mother-in-law had actually been expelled. Who lived there?
17 A. Well, it was a mixed composition, but the way she explained to me
18 these people went down from Vrace and they simply deported all the
19 non-Serbs, simply evicted them from their apartments and took away all
20 their things and make them cross the river Miljacka, cross the bridge to
21 Alija's state, they used to call it.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trto -- yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,
25 since a question was asked about the deportations of the Muslim population
1 from Grbavica, my question, with your permission, would be whether the
2 witness has any knowledge of any relocation -- not to use the term
3 deportation, of the Serbian population from the parts of the city
4 controlled by the BH army. I specifically mean the Sanac municipality.
5 Does me know whether the Serbs left some parts of the towns to go to the
6 areas controlled by the VRS?
7 JUDGE ORIE: First I make an observation that the expulsion has
8 been dealt with in examination-in-chief as well so you would have been
9 able to ask that in cross-examination, but nevertheless I allow you to put
10 this additional question to the witness.
11 Further cross-examination by Ms. Pilipovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, do you have any knowledge of the Serbian
13 population being expelled from the parts of the city controlled by the BH
14 army and having to move to areas controlled by the Republika Srpska army?
15 Do you have any knowledge of that?
16 A. As far as I know, nobody was expelled in Sarajevo.
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
19 Mr. Trto, this concludes your examination as a witness in this
20 courtroom. Everyone understands that it brings back into your memory and
21 testifying about the events such as you testified about is not easy.
22 Nevertheless, I also hope that you understand that it is important for
23 this Chamber to hear from those who were present at the relevant times at
24 the relevant places, to hear their answers to the questions put to them by
25 both Prosecution and by Defence and by the Judges. I thank you very much
1 for coming and I wish you have a safe trip home again.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness out
4 of the courtroom.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through
7 the documents.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1673, official report police station
9 Novo Sarajevo.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, you would like to make an observation at
11 this moment?
12 MR. MUNDIS: If I may. In light of the fact that there was a
13 missing page with respect to the translation and not withstanding the fact
14 that there was no prejudice to the Defence, in light of the fact that they
15 can read the document in its original language, the Prosecution will not
16 seek to tender these two documents at this time, but would rather wait
17 until a full translation is available for the benefit of the Trial
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, another way of -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank
21 you. I will reiterate the fact that we are hindered because your humble
22 servant --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis is saying that will not tender the
24 document at this moment.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Up until some future time or
1 future moment and that future moment, Mr. President, in order for you to
2 be able to decide, is important for us to know that the Defence was
3 hindered and handicapped and every day we have translations problems.
4 Last night we received some documents that had absolutely nothing to do
5 with the next witnesses. I am very tired of all of this.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate what difficulties you had
7 in cross-examining the witness on the second page which -- I am asking you
8 what type of difficulties you had on the second page which contains a few
9 entries handwritten and is apart from that a form? What difficulties did
10 you face, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, I do not
12 know since I do not have access to the translation of the document. In
13 fact, this team is such a team that works together. We discuss a lot. We
14 have ideas that come from our different backgrounds, and if I do not have
15 access to technical documents in a language that they understand more or
16 less, well, I must say I protest. If I cannot even protest when the
17 Prosecution doesn't hand us -- doesn't give us some documents I will not
18 do so. But it will not be the first time that I am asked to not say what
19 I wish to say.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber is aware of the fact
21 that apart from the entries appearing in it which appear at first sight
22 Latin, rather than B/C/S, in which clearly indicates, I would say, the
23 type of -- well, more or less the reasons of, that it has been translated
24 after the witness read the first line of 16, that is what is the cause of
25 death. And it -- these are medical terms that are there. Ms. Pilipovic
1 is a native B/C/S speaker. We noticed that you are quite well able to
2 read understand and speak B/C/S. So, therefore the Chamber wonders what
3 extra information you would have if you had an English the translation and
4 the Chamber also wonders in what way the absence of an English translation
5 would have hindered you in cross-examining the witness. I am asking for
6 specific problems you faced.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.
8 Gladly. First of all, I must say that this form may contain some words
9 that I do not know, linguistically. That is the first thing. And
10 secondly, we have seen it but we have not said it, but this document seems
11 to contain some handwriting and some typed areas. I don't know if some
12 things are hidden and once again, we always ask for the production of
13 original documents and I must say that there is some documents that I
14 cannot read once again.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will not speak.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That is a different issue. I ask you a specific
18 question about translation. I would like you to answer that question.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly. This is what I
20 read, Mr. President: [French phrase]. I cannot read what follows. Maybe
21 there is an important translation. I don't know if the Court is able to
22 read what follows. I cannot read what follows. It is a handwritten text.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with all due respect to my learned
25 colleagues, we have introduced numerous medical records here before and
1 the translation unit will not translate the Latin phrases, into English at
2 any rate. We can have this document translated for the courtesy of the
3 Trial Chamber and that is what we are proposing to do. However, as you
4 clearly indicated, the Defence team is quite capable of the reading this
5 document in its original language.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know if it is courtesy or an obligation to
7 provide the Chamber. The Chamber knows that the Latin terms are never
8 translated. I think Mr. Piletta-Zanin knows it. I think everyone knows
9 it in this courtroom. That is clear. I think that is clear. That is
10 enough argument on the admissibility of this document. We will give a
11 decision after the break. The other documents, Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: P1673.1 English translation; P1675, report of all
13 sniper activities against the civilians in B/C/S; Exhibit P1675.1, English
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the report on sniper activity is admitted -- I
16 am making a mistake. It is 1675, I will give a decision after the break
17 and the other document was 1673 which is -- that is admitted. We will
18 have a break until 10 minutes past 11.00.
19 May I, before we actually have this break, make two short
20 observations. It happens regularly that the Defence takes even a bit more
21 time for the cross-examination than the Prosecution has take for
22 examination-in-chief. I also noticed, and let's just take the example of
23 today, that a lot of subjects were covered by the Defence which were not
24 directly related to the examination-in-chief, and to some extent, they are
25 allowed to do it. If, on the other hand, if you take every witness to the
1 incident at the wedding party or whatever other subjects or to go through
2 the -- if you take every witness to the issue of uniforms on which we had
3 quite a lot of testimony and especially if there is no specific reason to
4 assume that the witness would have specific knowledge on these issue, if
5 you then at the end of the cross-examination might be faced with some time
6 problems, I think it is up to the Defence to use the time as it wants to,
7 but usually we, I think, if they do not want to take the risk, that they
8 finally cannot put the questions in relation to the issues dealt with in
9 examination-in-chief. It could be wise to start with those issues first.
10 I would like to make one other observation. We have discussed
11 before the matter of leading questions or not. I have explained to the
12 Defence that there was no problem during cross-examination to ask
13 questions in a leading way, even if these would be issues in dispute. At
14 the same time, I would like to inform the Defence that in the tradition,
15 where there is a difference between examination-in-chief and
16 cross-examination, the rules are applicable and we do not apply these
17 rules very strictly, but of course we orient ourselves to this rule,
18 whenever you touch new ground, material, for the case of the Defence,
19 issues that have not been dealt with in the examination-in-chief, that
20 usually the questioning should be similar to an examination in chief. For
21 example, I noticed today that on page 16, line 3 to 6, there were clear
22 leading questions on issues that might very well in dispute. Since there
23 was no objection, I didn't interfere but I would like to give this
24 guidance to the Defence.
25 My last request is to the technicians to do something about the
1 clocks of our laptops, because according to the laptop, we have been in
2 court already for three hours.
3 --- Recess taken at 1040 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, before the break, Mr. Mundis indicated
6 that he would not tender Exhibit 1675, for reasons well known, that is
7 that one page was not translated. So therefore we don't have to decide on
8 the admissibility. Nevertheless, the Chamber orders the Prosecution,
9 because we find it evidence that might well be relevant, we order the
10 Prosecution to provide the Chamber this documents with a full and proper
11 translation within one week from now on.
12 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. That will be done.
13 Mr. President, before we call the next witness, yesterday, I
14 asked for an indication as to the period of time for the cross-examination
15 of Mr. Donia. I received a letter faxed late last night from the Defence,
16 requesting copies of some further material in relation to Donia but I
17 haven't yet received any indication as to how long the cross-examination
18 is proposed to be as far as the Defence is concerned. I would be grateful
19 for that. The latest information I have in relation to Mr. Donia is that
20 he is required to give evidence in another case as well in the next two
21 weeks. It now looks as if that evidence will be the week after next, that
22 is, from the 22nd of April. I, therefore, have in mind to call him on the
23 morning of Thursday, the 17th, I think it is, of April. That would leave
24 a maximum of two days of cross-examination. I don't suggest that he would
25 require two days of cross-examination, but that is what is available at
1 this stage.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, can you inform the Chamber about the
3 time you should need.
4 MR. IERACE: It should be the 18th of April. Thank you.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, certainly.
6 The Defence, unfortunately, has no indication to give you with
7 regards to the time that we will need. We are terribly sorry and we
8 apologise ahead of time because we do not know how long it will take us.
9 It is a very important witness to our mind, and I believe that the time
10 will be longer than what the Prosecution indicated. If the Defence is not
11 able to say so, it is because we have asked the Prosecution to receive all
12 the documents that are -- that figure in this quasi-expert witness report
13 for the following reason: It is a 24-page document. There are 14 pages
14 of text and 10 pages sent us to various different documents. This is
15 why we wanted to obtain all this reference material and read what we can.
16 Therefore, we will only then be able to tell you how long we will need to
17 cross-examine this witness. But according to what we foresee, it is
18 probably much longer period of time than what the Prosecution has
19 proposed. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: How much documents are still missing? Mr. Ierace,
21 could you tell us, I mean, is there 95 per cent or 65 per cent or 25 per
22 cent of the attached documents disclosed to the Defence?
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, when we disclosed the report on the
24 14th of February, which I think is 14 pages long, we disclosed it with it
25 two large binders full of the material which Mr. Donia referred to his
1 report. So I would be surprised if there is any documentation mentioned
2 in his report which has not been provided to the Defence.
3 The only other matter is this: We have also provided tapes,
4 disclosed tapes to the Defence of evidence given by Mr. Donia in past
5 proceedings. I think that there have been five altogether. There is
6 still one tape to come, which we're told by the translation unit should be
7 available today. So at this stage I am not aware of any outstanding
8 material. Mr. Piletta-Zanin in his letter, sent to me in French, referred
9 to two documents in particular. I am having the material brought into the
10 Trial Chamber this morning, to check whether in fact those two documents
11 were in the two folders. I'm sorry, it is the Registry which is providing
12 the tapes, not the translation unit, and we are told by the Registry that
13 the remaining tape should be available today. Thank you.
14 Mr. President, those two documents have just arrived. So if you
15 could allow me just a minute, I'll check to see if the two documents
16 indicated by the Defence are, in fact, in those two volumes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you, Mr. Ierace, whether you feel
18 that the Prosecution was under an obligation to provide the tapes of the
19 testimony of Mr. Donia in other cases or was it, in your view at least, a
20 matter of assisting the Defence or were you under an obligation, in your
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, as I understand it, there is no
23 strict obligation on the Prosecution to do that. It is something that we
24 do as a matter of courtesy, if you like, as part of disclosure of all
25 material in our possession which touches upon that witness. More
1 specifically, of course, Mr. Donia's report concerns the recent history of
2 Sarajevo. It is, as far as the reports go, a very brief one. The
3 material within the tapes, of course, deals with other parts of the former
4 Yugoslavia and other periods of time, so I don't see that tape as in any
5 way hindering the Defence's cross-examination. It would save time perhaps
6 if the Defence could indicate the title of those two documents that they
7 are particularly concerned about.
8 I apologise for interrupting my friend. I only rise to my feet
9 in the interests of saving time. The relevant sentence from the letter as
10 translated into English is to the effect that the Defence needs access to
11 text referring to number 3233 and 3199. Perhaps my friend could indicate
12 whether that is a footnote from a report or numbers in the index to the
13 two volumes. Thank you.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. President. The
15 Defence thought that we were quite clear. We wish to obtain the
16 following. With regards to -- we have a report. Half of these -- the
17 indications in the report send us to various sources, so I believe that
18 there is more than 100 footnotes. The ERN documents as part of these
19 footnotes and some of them are not, but those ERN numbers are with the
20 Prosecution and we would like to obtain them. I am asking this because we
21 know that search engines that were handed us so courteously by the
22 Prosecution do not work well enough and we cannot find these documents.
23 We are wasting a great deal of time, whereas the Prosecution has today
24 within their possession a better search engine, and we would like them to
25 hand us a hard copy which seems to be actually an obligation, given the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 nature of this document.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it seems like this is going to take
4 some time. There are about 100 footnotes to the report. Those numbers
5 clearly could not relate to the footnotes. The indexes to the two volumes
6 refer to footnote numbers, so again it is not easy to understand what my
7 friend means when he refers to four-digit numbers because, of course, that
8 doesn't relate to the ERNs either.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We just only received copies of the correspondence
10 which deal with the -- we, of course, the Chamber, the report of Mr. Donia
11 has been filed and so the Chamber is also in a position to see whether we
12 are talking about one-tenth of a per cent which might be missing or
13 whether there is a serious handicap for the Defence. If necessary, I will
14 given an opportunity later on for further debate, but I will strictly
15 limit it in time.
16 We also see whether the failing documents are such that the
17 Defence is handicapped to given an estimate of the time they would need
18 for cross-examination. There is a practical problem because the
19 Prosecution has to schedule the arrangements for Mr. Donia. So the
20 Chamber will have a serious look at whether the missing documents are such
21 that it would prevent the Defence to give an estimate of time they would
22 need and the Chamber asks to reconsider -- asks the Defence to reconsider
23 whether they could come up with an estimate, although some pages are
24 missing. I think for very practical reasons, the witness is waiting
25 outside and as far as I know there are some physical hindrances
1 as well, so that is the reason why I do not want to continue this debate
2 at this very moment. I think the witness had waited perhaps already a bit
3 too long.
4 Mr. Usher, could you please bring the witness into the courtroom.
5 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Before the usher leaves the
7 courtroom, I wanted to make sure, is the following witness Mr. Enver?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. I have a witness on my list
9 who is a protected witness. I am not dealing with any names, therefore.
10 I have Witness AJ on my list. Yes?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have a coordination
12 problem. We just have to look at our list. Excuse us one minute,
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please be seated, but don't yet put on the
16 Mr. Usher, could you please put on the earphones for
17 just one second so that...
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr.
19 President. We have now found this witness on our list.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you hear me in a language you understand?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. The Prosecution has sought protective
23 measures for you, and they are granted. That means that no one in the
24 outside world can see your face and that no one in this courtroom will
25 use your real name. Please keep that in mind as well while testifying,
1 because you might easily refer to a place or to a person which might make
2 it possible for other people to identify you.
3 Before you give testimony in this Court, the Rules of Procedure
4 and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak
5 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So Mrs. AJ, as we
6 will call you, would you please make that declaration and the text will
7 be handed out to you now by the usher.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
11 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
12 WITNESS: WITNESS AJ
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Examined by Mr. Ierace:
15 Q. I ask the witness be shown P3679. Madam, is your name correctly
16 stated on that piece of paper in front of you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is your date of birth also correctly stated on that piece of
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. IERACE: Might that be returned.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With your permission, I will
24 have to leave the courtroom for a few minutes just to make a quick phone
25 call, if I may.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Might I just clarify that the microphone be turned
4 off at the end of each question
5 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear you. I didn't hear. Could you please
7 MR. IERACE: I just wanted to clarify whether I have to turn the
8 microphone off after I ask each question.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No, we have no voice distortion so...
10 MR. IERACE: Thank you.
11 Q. Madam, have you lived in Sarajevo since 1979?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are you married and do you have two children?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are both children female?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. During the armed conflict in Sarajevo, were you wounded?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was the date on which you were wounded?
20 A. On the 7th of November, 1992.
21 Q. What day of the week was that?
22 A. It was a Saturday.
23 Q. The previous day Friday, the 6th of November, had you been
25 A. Yes. I was subject to the work obligation so I went to work.
1 After the office hours I went to the park, which is in the immediate
2 vicinity of the company of where I worked, to gather some twigs, because I
3 wanted to find an oven fueled by solid fuel because I wanted to bake
4 some bread and there was no power, no electricity, no gas and this was
5 the only way we could do it.
6 Q. I do not want to know where you worked or what you did at work
7 but request you answer this question: Did your work have anything to do
8 with the military?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In terms of where you lived, was it a house or an apartment?
11 A. It was an apartment building.
12 Q. How many floors did the apartment building have?
13 A. Eighteen. I lived on the sixth floor.
14 Q. So on the Friday, the 6th of November, you gathered some wood from
15 a park --
16 A. It was on the 7th of November -- no, I am sorry. You are
17 absolutely correct. It was on the 6th.
18 Q. You gathered some wood in a park in order to make a fire is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was that a fire to do some cooking or a fire to keep warm?
22 A. For cooking. That was our primary concern.
23 Q. The following day Saturday, the 7th of November, did you go
24 somewhere with the wood that you collected the day before?
25 A. Yes. I carried the wood and the bread to a neighbour of mine, to
1 bake it, because I did not have a wood oven, wood-powered oven.
2 Q. All right. Did you go with someone, and if you did, please do not
3 tell us the name of that person.
4 A. I went there with a neighbour of mine because she also wanted to
5 bake some bread. Because in our apartment building, none of us had a wood
6 oven so we had to go to a neighbour of ours.
7 Q. All right. What was the time approximately that you left your
8 apartment to go to the other place to bake some bread?
9 A. I can't say with any precision, but perhaps around half past 2.00
10 or around 3.00 p.m.
11 Q. What was the weather like at that stage?
12 A. The weather was quite unusual for that time of year because it
13 was sunny and quite warm. That November was quite warm.
14 Q. Do you remember what sort of clothes you were wearing that day?
15 A. I do remember. I was wearing the tracksuit pants and top and
16 also a blazer, a black blazer, and I also had yellow training shoes.
17 Q. What colour was your hair at that time?
18 A. The same as it is now. I had the same hairstyle and the same
19 hair colour. I always have the same hairstyle.
20 Q. How long was your hair on that day?
21 A. Perhaps a centimetre or two longer than it is right now.
22 Q. Would you agree that your hair is touching your shoulders at the
23 moment, you have blond straight hair touching your shoulders when you sit
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How far away from your apartment was the other place where you
2 baked the bread, where you went to bake the bread?
3 A. Perhaps 100 metres.
4 Q. And did you in fact go there?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. At some stage later, did your husband arrive?
7 A. Yes, my husband came. He had been listening to the radio. I
8 have to say that it was powered by a car battery. He somehow managed to
9 get it hooked to the car battery and he was listening to the news and he
10 told me, leave the bread behind, leave everything. There is a message
11 from Karadzic that Sarajevo would be shelled, as that day a convoy of
12 Serbs was supposed to leave Sarajevo and our authorities would not allow
13 it to go because the Serbs would not let the humanitarian aid go through
14 Ilidza. My husband came immediately and said: "Leave everything behind.
15 Let's go home because Sarajevo is about to be shelled." Of course, that
16 is exactly what I did. I came together with my neighbour. We didn't wait
17 for the bread to be finished. We just went back to our apartment.
18 Q. So your husband told you what he had heard on the radio; is that
20 A. Yes, yes, that is correct.
21 Q. You said that he heard that Mr. Karadzic said that Sarajevo would
22 be shelled because a convoy of Serbs had not been allowed to leave
23 Sarajevo --
24 A. Yes, that he would "raze Sarajevo to the ground." That is a
25 verbatim quote.
1 Q. You also said that the reason the authorities would not allow the
2 convoy to leave Sarajevo is because the Serbs, and I now quote your words
3 as translated into English, "because the Serbs would not let the
4 humanitarian aid go through Ilidza." Do you mean by that the Serbs would
5 not let some humanitarian aid come into the city through Ilidza?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So did you leave -- you said that you went back to your
8 apartment. Did your neighbour leave with you to return to the apartment?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What happened after that? Was there any shelling that you saw or
12 A. No. Quite the contrary. It was uncommonly quiet. There wasn't
13 a single shot to be heard and I decided to go back for the bread because
14 I had left the bread behind to bake. And the family where I baked the
15 bread, they didn't have any dishwashing liquid and I took some as a
16 present for them. I also took the bread. I was carrying it like this,
17 together with the metal pan in which it was. When I was about halfway
18 there, I suddenly heard the shots. At the same time, the bread fell out
19 of my hands and I felt the blood on my left side. Although the bullets
20 entered one centimetre away from my spine and passed right through my
21 body and exited the left side of my body creating a huge exit wound
22 and rupturing the artery. I managed to make a few more steps and seek
23 shelter behind one of the neighbouring skyscrapers. I fell down and, of
24 course, I wanted to ask for help but there was nobody in the street
25 because everybody had taken shelter in light of the information that was
1 received over the radio.
2 So I didn't know what to do, how to seek help. And the easiest
3 thing was to shout as loud as I could. Since this was a skyscraper full
4 of people, I was hoping that somebody would come down and pick me up. I
5 screamed once, waited for a very short period of time, and then I screamed
6 again. But when I wanted to scream for the third time, I didn't have the
7 strength to do it. Of course, I was already losing consciousness, but I
8 felt a shadow that grabbed me. Somebody had heard me. A person grabbed
9 me by the caller and was asking somebody else for help. It was a young
10 man, later I learned that after I left the hospital, whose name was Srdan.
11 He was the first person to come to my aid. He is a Serb.
12 They picked me up and took me to the first aid station which was
13 maybe 50 metres away from that area. Of course, I was immediately
14 transported from the first aid point to the hospital. I was naturally
15 unconscious, but I was taken to the hospital where I was immediately
16 transferred to the operation room, where I received 17 bottles of blood
17 because I arrived in the hospital clinically dead, without a pulse. So
18 they gave me 11 units of blood on the operating table and they tried to
19 by-pass the artery that had been ruptured. When they did all that and
20 when they wanted to get me off the table, it ruptured again. So I had to
21 be taken back to the operating theater. Of course, this is what I heard
23 They made another incision in my stomach and again they by-passed
24 this part of the artery that was ruptured. I spent 23 days in the
25 intensive care. But as you can see, I survived.
1 Q. I will now go back over the account that you have just given us
2 and ask you some further questions about it.
3 Earlier on you said that you were carrying the bread pan like
4 this, and when you said those words, you were holding the bread pan on
5 your right side, I think in the area of your hip; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, on the right side, that is correct.
7 Q. You said that the bullet left your body on the left side and you
8 felt blood on the left side?
9 A. Yes, that is right, on the left side.
10 Q. Was the --
11 A. It was actually gushing. The blood was gushing because the artery
12 had been ruptured.
13 Q. Was there any damage done to the bread pan? Was that hit?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. At about the time that you were shot, did you hear the sound of a
16 shot being fired?
17 A. Yes, I heard the sound. At the same time, I dropped pan at the
18 same time and I felt the blood. It was all -- it all happened in a single
20 Q. From what --
21 A. Virtually simultaneously. That is when I heard the shots and
22 felt the blood.
23 Q. From what direction did you hear the sound of the shot come?
24 A. From behind my back and that was from the direction of Grbavica.
25 That location is very close to Grbavica. In fact, there is only one road
1 and the river of Miljacka between that part of the city and Grbavica.
2 Q. When you say that the sound of the shot seemed to come from behind
3 your back, do you mean by that directly behind your back or slightly to
4 the left or slightly to the right?
5 A. Not directly from behind my back, but slightly to the right
6 because that is where the bullet entered my body. So slightly to the
7 right, not directly from behind my back.
8 Q. To your right, how far was the front line approximately?
9 A. I don't know. 50 to 100 metres. Not more than that. Well, the
10 width of the road, I don't know how wide it is, and then you also have the
11 river. They were on the other side of the river.
12 Q. I think you have said that the -- I will withdraw that.
13 What was the name of the area on the other side of the river
14 closest to where you were? What part of Sarajevo was that?
15 A. On the other side of the river?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Grbavica.
18 Q. In that part of Grbavica, were there any high-rise buildings?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What were those buildings?
21 A. There was the shopping, two yellow buildings that were called
22 "Shopping by Us," and there were four white skyscrapers. And from these
23 four white skyscrapers and the two shopping buildings, you can see the
24 spot where I was wounded quite clearly, practically with the naked eye.
25 In fact, not practically, but you really see it. If you look at that point
1 from the shopping buildings or the white skyscrapers, you can see the
2 people quite clearly because the distance is very small.
3 Q. Approximately how far were you from where you lived at the time
4 that you were shot?
5 A. From the place where I was shot? Maybe 50 metres.
6 Q. Given that you lived so close and that you lived there up
7 until that time, had you developed any awareness of whether there was
8 sniping fire coming from the shopping buildings or any of the four other
9 high-rise buildings that you mentioned?
10 A. We all knew it. I wasn't the only person to be wounded. Many
11 people were killed. In fact, from the shots fired from the shopping
12 buildings and the skyscrapers, the white skyscrapers, quite a few people
13 who lived in my street were killed or wounded.
14 Q. Now, you said that you went to this other place with your
15 neighbour to bake some bread. Your husband arrived and warned you to
16 leave, so you and your husband and the neighbour, I think, went back to
17 where you lived; is that correct? You returned?
18 A. Yes, yes, to our apartment.
19 Q. There was no shelling and so you decided to go back again; is that
21 A. Yes, to take -- to collect the bread.
22 Q. And to take some detergent?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you shot on the way the second time to this other place or
25 were you shot after you collected your bread and dropped off the
2 A. After I collected the bread.
3 Q. So you were returning to your apartment the second time when you
4 were shot?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, you told us it was very quiet, I think you said something
7 like unusually quiet, strangely quiet --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- and then you heard the sound of the shot. Did you hear any
10 other shooting before you lost consciousness?
11 A. No, no.
12 Q. You told us that the wound left a large or a significant injury on
13 your left-hand side. Did the doctor say anything to you about how big the
14 hole was created by the bullet?
15 A. Yes. My surgeon who performed surgery on me told me that -- he
16 said verbatim, "I put both of my hands," and these are a man's hands,
17 "into your exit wound." That is how large it was and he showed like
19 Q. Now, when you finally left the hospital, were you given some
20 documents by the hospital staff in relation to your admission and
22 A. Yes. Of course, I was given such documents.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown Exhibit
24 P3282. I don't ask that it be placed on the ELMO because it contains
25 features which would allow for the witness's identification. So perhaps
1 you could just look at it. It might assist -- I withdraw that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President I am waiting
4 to be able to check the number of the document which is not -- doesn't
5 seem to be complete. But that doesn't matter. What we wanted to say,
6 Your Honour, Mr. President, is the following and we will say that at
7 a later date because we don't want to interrupt the testimony of the
8 witness, and that is that these documents in their entirety have finally
9 been submitted to the Defence in the form which is more or less legible.
10 I don't know exactly when it was at what time, but we do know what day it
11 was, it was yesterday. I have to say that last night, to be more
12 specific, so yet again the Defence is handicapped to a quite large extent
13 in the preparation of our work because we cannot keep on cross-examining
14 the witnesses on the run and that is exactly what is required -- what we
15 are required to do. If you compare the quality of these documents with
16 the documents that we received before it cannot be compared, really.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has received this morning the complaint
18 about legibility you filed, I think, yesterday and I do see that there is
19 a difference. Let's see how far we can come and let's just establish that
20 it is not a good thing that you received the better readable copies only
21 recently, but at the other hand, be glad that we have them at least.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just two things very briefly.
23 Firstly, the reason the Defence received those copies yesterday is
24 that we received them for the first time yesterday. The witness kindly
25 brought those documents with her. Secondly --
1 JUDGE ORIE: The better legible ones, you mean?
2 MR. IERACE: Yes. Secondly, as I have said before, the
3 Prosecution does not particularly rely on these types of documents in
4 these types of situations. I intend to tender only the first two pages of
5 P3282. The purpose being it is some corroboration of what the witness has
6 already said. I do not intend to tender any of the other medical
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is clear at least. Please proceed,
9 Mr. Ierace.
10 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Madam, would you please look at the photocopies in front of you.
12 Do you recognise those pages?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Are they some of the documents that you have received from the
15 medical authorities in relation to your treatment?
16 A. Yes. Yes.
17 MR. IERACE: Thank you. Might that be returned.
18 Mr. President, at this stage, I propose to show the witness a
19 photograph and shortly after a video taken in the usual fashion for these
20 types of matters, and as well as that, a 360-degree photograph and a map.
21 The details in those four items would permit to a greater or lesser degree
22 some identification of either the witness or where she lived at the time.
23 Therefore, I would be grateful if we can go into closed session for the
24 next phase of examination-in-chief.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have been informed that the witness -- the
1 video could reveal information which is protected so therefore we turn
2 into private session or closed session? Which would you need?
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the photograph and the map will also
4 allow identification and probably answers to the questions asked.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We will then turn into closed session.
6 [Closed session]
12 Pages 7130-7143 – redacted – closed session
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes it is confirmed to my screen.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE:
19 Q. You told us that when you were shot, there was no one around and
20 you called out, hoping that someone in the high-rise buildings near you
21 would hear you and come to your assistance. Is that correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Were there any military weapons or equipment anywhere near you at
24 the time that you were shot?
25 A. No.
1 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Then we'll have a break. Who
3 is going to cross-examine the witness after the break? Will it be you,
4 Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence
6 does not know yet. We did not have time to go through these medical
7 documents that were given to us very late, but we will consult each -- I
8 will consult my colleague. Do you have a preference? It's either myself
9 or my colleague, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I don't have a preference. I was just trying to see
11 what situation we are in. It is now Thursday. We are not sitting on
12 Friday. The examination-in-chief took one hour. If we would have a break
13 until 10 minutes to 1.00, there would be 55 minutes left for
14 cross-examination until we have to finish. If it would be possible to
15 conclude the cross-examination at that time, that would mean the witness
16 could presumably travel back home and didn't have to wait.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am terribly sorry.
19 Independently of whether it is myself or my colleague, we shall attempt to
20 be brief, as long as we are not interrupted.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break until 10 minutes to 1.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, we urge the Defence to finish in time
2 so... Yes.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will raise
4 an issue at this point. It does not really matter if the witness is in
5 the courtroom or not. But the Defence wishes indicate that we are
6 opposing to -- we have an opposition. These documents were -- these
7 medical documents that I do not have right here under my eyes, it is
8 P3283, was tendered by the Prosecution. When we compare these documents
9 as being relatively legible documents but they are not all completely
10 legible. These documents have nothing to do with the document delivered
11 to the Prosecution, which were submitted in the month of December of 2001.
12 So when we are submitted something that is called a "black box," I must
13 say that one does not accomplish the communication duty or obligation. It
14 is only last night that we have received these documents and if the
15 legislator desired that some delay passed by between the moment that the
16 Defence for instance receives the documents and before they start
17 cross-examining, it is obvious that every time, if these delays are not
18 respected, and each time if these documents are submitted to us at the
19 very last moment, I must say that it is not tolerable, it is not
20 acceptable and it is not abiding by the Rule on behalf of the
22 This is why we would like to raise a fundamental objection. We
23 cannot use the documents because they were not disclosed pursuant to the
24 Article 65 ter of the Rules and regulation. This is what I wanted to say
25 very briefly. I wished to be brief and therefore this is why we are going
1 to do two things, if you allow us, Mr. President. Ms. Pilipovic will
2 begin the cross-examination of this witness and then I will only ask
3 some final questions regarding these documents. Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, first of all, I apologise for being
6 late. There were some trial team matters that I attended to and it took
7 me a little longer than I anticipated and I should have been watching the
8 time more carefully.
9 Do you wish to hear from me in relation to what Mr. Piletta-Zanin
10 has said or --
11 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact I would rather first start with
12 the cross-examine of the witness, for reasons known to all of us. But if
13 you would just grant me one second.
14 [Trial Chamber confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. Can you please confirm that on the 25th of June, 2001, you spoke
21 to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In the course of the examination-in-chief, you told us that the
24 incident in which you were hurt occurred on the 7th of November, 1992.
25 Can you please tell us from the time when the incident occurred as you
1 described to us and up until the time when you gave the statement to the
2 investigators, that would be the 25th of June, 2001, so in that
3 intervening period, did you speak to anyone about the incident in which
4 you were injured or did you report the incident to anyone? I am
5 referring to the incident which you were wounded on the 7th of November,
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In order to gain some time,
8 perhaps it would be good for the witness to reply into the microphone. It
9 would be good to have two microphones.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You are not aware, but could you just adjust the
11 microphones to such a way, Mr. Usher, so that we can clearly hear the
13 Yes, please proceed.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. So, Witness, you do confirm for the first time after November,
16 1992, you spoke to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor on
17 the 25th of June, 2001?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you spoke to the investigators of the Office of the
20 Prosecutor on that day, were you shown the medical documents?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When the medical documents were shown to you by the investigator
23 who interviewed you, did you say that you recognised the documents that
24 you considered to be yours?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you say to the investigators that you had the originals of the
2 documents and did you in fact have them?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you supply these documents to the investigators on that
6 A. No.
7 Q. The documents that the investigators of the Office of the
8 Prosecutor showed you, were these copies or the originals from the
10 A. I don't really remember.
11 Q. When you inspected the documents shown to you by my learned
12 colleague today, the documents that you inspected in June 2001, were they
13 the same as the documents that you inspected today?
14 A. I don't know. I don't remember. I didn't pay that much
15 attention. I saw that the documents shown to me today were photocopy.
16 And on that occasion, on the previous occasion, I didn't pay much
17 attention to that.
18 Q. Witness, I will now read a part of your statement given on the
19 25th of June, 2001 and I will read on page three where you said that you
20 inspected -- that you inspected documents 0098359, 00983361 -- and
21 00983361. You go on to say, "I recognise them as copies of the original
22 medical documents. I have been given in relation to my injury."
23 A. I don't know. I can't remember what it looked like. I probably
24 saw it at that time and that is why I stated it that way. I assumed that
25 it is correct.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the ERN numbers read out my by my
3 friend are different from those who appear in the statement. The numbers
4 which appear in the statement are 00983359, 00983360 and 00983361. I
5 don't require any changes be made to the questions that was put to the
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. So you do confirm that the investigators of the Office of the
10 Prosecutor showed you the documents that you recognised as copies of the
11 documents bearing your full name?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 Witness, in the course of your examination-in-chief, you told us
15 where you lived. You said that the front lines were 50 metres away from
16 where you were. When you say "50 metres away" --
17 A. I said between 50 and 100 metres. I am not quite sure about that.
18 Q. Can you please tell us what -- which army was located at the
19 distance of about 50 to 100 metres way from the buildings that you lived?
20 A. From the buildings where I lived?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. I don't know what army it was because I didn't see any troops.
23 Q. Let me ask you this question. In the area where you lived, did
24 you see any soldiers?
25 A. Well, from time to time I would encounter somebody as I went to
1 work, somebody wearing a uniform, but whether that person was a soldier or
2 whether he wore a uniform of some sort, I don't know.
3 Q. You had work obligation?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In your statement - I will not now say the name of the company to
6 protect you - the company where you worked under the work obligation, how
7 far was that company from the place where you lived?
8 A. Perhaps 2 to 3 kilometres.
9 Q. In 1992, do you have any knowledge whether the headquarters of the
10 BH army was also located in the company where you worked, in the building
11 where you worked?
12 A. No, I am absolutely sure that there wasn't anything such thing.
13 Q. In the building where you lived or parallel to it, is there the
14 Energoinvest building block?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know whether in 1992 and 1993 and 1994 that the
17 headquarters of the 102 Motorised Brigade of the BH army headquarters was
18 located there in the Energoinvest building?
19 A. I did not see any soldiers next to the building of Energoinvest
20 when I went to work, so I don't know.
21 Q. Can you confirm to us that street where you lived goes parallel
22 to the Zmaja od Bosne Street, used to be Marshal Tito Street?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that parallel to the Zmaja od Bosne Street and parallel to the
25 Miljacka river, there is a section of the part of the city and buildings
1 that are called Wilsonovo Setaliste, the promenade?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you please tell us, parallel to the street where you live,
4 and in relation to the Marshal Tito Street, which buildings are there in
5 the area of the Wilson promenade facing the Miljacka river?
6 A. I don't know how to explain to you which buildings there are. I
7 know that there are some buildings but I don't know how you want me to
8 explain this.
9 Q. So parallel to the street where you live, is there the Bristol
10 Hotel quite near?
11 A. Yes, quite near, but it is not on the Wilson promenade.
12 Q. In this area that is parallel to your street, is there the
13 building of the school for electrical engineering, the faculty of
14 electrical engineering?
15 A. No, it is not on that street. It is further towards the -- the
16 Wilson promenade, but it is not the electrical engineering, but the
17 mechanical engineering faculty.
18 Q. From the building or from the floor where you lived and from the
19 area where your street is, were you able to see those buildings?
20 A. No. Because in front of my building there was a building that
21 closed off the line of sight. It is possible perhaps to see from the
22 upper floors, but I was unable to see those buildings from my floor
23 because the building that is located in front of my skyscraper high-rise
24 building is, I think, eight floors high so I was unable to see.
25 Q. The buildings that were parallel to your street in the part of
1 the Wilson promenade, were they parallel to the skyscrapers in Grbavica?
2 A. There were some skyscrapers in Grbavica which were parallel but
3 not the ones that I mentioned.
4 Q. How many skyscrapers there are on Grbavica, as far as you
6 A. I don't know, really. I never counted them.
7 Q. Were you able to see from your street the four skyscrapers in
9 A. The four skyscrapers below the bridge, the Brotherhood and Unity
10 Bridge, I couldn't see them from my skyscraper, but I could see them from
11 my street.
12 Q. In the period in the years of 1992, 1993, and 1994, did you go to
13 the area parallel to your street that is called the Wilson promenade?
14 A. In the course of the war, never.
15 Q. Did you know that in that area there were the positions of the
16 102nd Motorised Brigade and that the BH army was there?
17 A. No. Believe me, I really don't know. I wasn't really interested
18 in that.
19 Q. In the street where you lived, was there the Vase Miskina company?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How far away is that company from the building where you lived or
22 the buildings where you were at the time?
23 A. It was very close. Perhaps some 50 metres, 20, 30, something like
24 that. Not more than 50.
25 Q. Did you have any knowledge that, from June onwards, that the staff
1 of the Territorial Defence, and later on the headquarters of the 102nd
2 Motorised Brigade, the command post of that brigade was located in that
4 A. No. Well, I am not a soldier and I was not really preoccupied
5 with that. I just ran from home to work, from work to home, and that was
7 Q. If I were to tell you that the witness was -- testified in front
8 of this Tribunal and that he testified that the staff of the Territorial
9 Defence and that the headquarters of the 102nd brigade was located there,
10 would you agree with me that it is possible?
11 A. I swore that I would speak the truth and I am speaking the truth.
12 I really don't know.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. The question has no
15 probative value given the previous answer of the witness. If she doesn't
16 know, she can't comment
17 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained.
18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Witness, on that day when you said the incident happened, in
20 the area where you were as you showed us on the video, were there any
21 other persons there?
22 A. No. There was nobody there.
23 Q. In your statement that you gave to the investigators of the Office
24 of the Prosecutor, you said that you noticed a person in sight?
25 A. No, that is not what I said. I said I saw a silhouette, a shadow
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 of a person. That was the young man that picked me up. I didn't see
2 anybody there at all.
3 Q. In 1992, 1993, and 1994, in the part of the city where you lived,
4 were there any combat operations going on?
5 A. You mean direct combat operations there? I don't know about that.
6 There were -- there was shelling. People were being wounded, but I did
7 not see that.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, madam, and thank you for coming
15 here. I will ask you questions in French. I will be brief so that you
16 can go back home for the weekend.
17 Witness, you said that during the course of the summer 2001, you
18 were interviewed by the members of the OTP. Is that correct? You
19 confirmed this fact.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 You also said that you have shown some -- you were shown some
23 medical documents which you recognise as being documents relating to your
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Witness, thank you.
2 I would like to show you now a document bearing the ERN number,
3 but first of all, I would like to ask you the following question: Do you
4 speak and do you understand the French language?
5 A. No.
6 Q. I am asking you this because of one precise issue.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like
8 the witness to be able to, although if she doesn't understand English --
9 Q. Witness, do you speak English?
10 A. No.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would nevertheless ask the
12 witness to remove her headphones for just one second because there is
13 something that I would like to say.
14 Thank you, Mr. President. The problem is the following, and I
15 will say it very openly. I would like to show the witness now a
16 document. It is document bearing mark 5958 in its version such as we have
17 received it the day before yesterday. I would like to ask her a series of
18 questions regarding this document.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Prior to clarifying one thing: Mr. Ierace, it was my
20 understanding that you tender P3282, but only the first two pages. Or do
21 you tender the whole document and you are only examining the witness on
22 the first two page?
23 MR. IERACE: The former, Mr. President. The first two pages and
24 the relevant transcript for the first two pages.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Translation?
1 MR. IERACE: Translation. I am sorry.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore, when we finally deal with the
3 documents, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you should be aware that only the first two
4 pages are tendered. It might perhaps have been wiser only to give the
5 first two pages if you intended not to tender the other two pages. But
6 getting rid of paper is easy.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the questions
8 that I will ask stem out of the interview that occurred in June of 2001,
9 and this is why it is important that we know how and under which
10 circumstances it all occurred. This is why I will ask questions only
11 regarding the first two pages. May I proceed? These documents are an
12 annex of the motion that you've received this morning and that we have
13 also received.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I was responding. Since you referred to 5958, which
15 is not the first two pages. That is the reason why I responded. Because
16 the first two pages is 5556. But please proceed because you always could
17 tender them yourself if the Prosecution doesn't do it. Yes, please
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was talking about 5958. We
21 can ask the witness maybe to put back her headphones.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Madam, would you please put on your headphones? Thank you very
25 much. The witness [sic] will show you, Witness, with his kind assistance,
1 a document.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, would you kindly
3 show this to the witness. No, it's the one I have in my hand.
4 For the transcript, we are talking about the document 0211-5958,
5 which was annexed to the motion filed before you, Mr. President. Filed to
6 your Chamber, in fact.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you give me one moment. You
8 might have noticed some activity from the usher. That was because I would
9 like to have in front of me your submission of yesterday. I hope we found
10 it. Yes.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like
15 to try to not waste time, so may I proceed?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Your question to the witness was whether she can read
17 her name on that document?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If she was able to make out a
19 name that is on the document handed to her.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Could we also see the copy that has been
22 presented to the witness at this very moment so that we could compare it.
24 [Trial Chamber confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: I compared it with the filed submission
1 "determination de la defense a redaction a la problematique des pieces
2 illisibles." Do you have that as well, Mr. Ierace?
3 MR. IERACE: I don't have it in front of me, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please show it briefly to
5 Mr. Ierace and return it back to the witness.
6 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I now have that and I
7 take it that was attached to the submission.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I checked that. Yes, if it would then please
9 be --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask Mr. Ierace
11 not to write anything on the document, and to give it back to the witness.
12 Q. Witness, you have stated a few moments ago that you were not able
13 to make out your name.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. IERACE: Perhaps I can short-circuit this. Mr. President, I
16 hand up to you the copies from the evidence folder these documents. It
17 makes clear that why these ERN numbers ending in 957 and 958 are in the
18 condition in which they appear in the photocopies.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That is the originals you are producing now?
20 MR. IERACE: Yes. I have a stamp and a signature.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that is not
22 the most important thing right now. I believe that it would be better to
23 cross-examine this witness at this very moment. And if they are talking
24 about documents that were not handed out to us, later on the Defence will
25 make another objection and maybe the witness will then have to come back
1 on Monday.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar. Mr. Usher, would you show it
3 briefly to Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 Please proceed with your cross-examination, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Witness, you stated earlier that you were not able to read a
9 name, any name on this document; do you confirm this fact?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Witness, isn't it true to say that this document seems to be
12 mainly legible?
13 A. Yes, quite illegible [as interpreted].
14 Q. Thank you, Witness.
15 Is this a type of document that the Prosecution showed you and
16 that you would have supposedly recognised as being your own documents in
17 June of 2001 during your interview?
18 A. I said that I do not recall what the documents looked like. I
19 remember the first part which is on the paper. I said those are these
20 documents. I can see approximately from what we can read that it is the
21 same document that I was issued.
22 Q. Madam, were you shown at the time a document that was so
23 illegible, because we cannot even see your name and we don't even know
24 what the object of this document is?
25 A. I said that I do not remember what these documents look like.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I have a question to you. As far
2 as your understanding goes, is 5958 the back side of 5957? I specifically
3 asked you to look at the right-hand bottom corner of 5958 and to the
4 left-hand bottom corner of 5957.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not have
6 the document before me any longer. I would have to be able to see it
7 again, Mr. Usher.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You refer to the documents attached to your
9 submission and these are both attached to your submission.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, most likely
11 there is a transparency problem with regards to this document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. But if there is a fair possibility
13 that this is the back side and --
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that was the very reason that I handed
15 up the document.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. IERACE: When one has a look at this document which is from
18 where the photocopies are made, it is quite clear that 5958 is not only
19 the reverse of 5957, but it is obvious that one is seeing through either
20 side the printing on the reverse. In other words, the questioning has no
21 probative value. For this reason the name clearly wouldn't be --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's just see whether we can complete this.
23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, after you have the document number 5957 in
24 front of you, because what I want is to avoid confusion and to promote
25 clarity. Would you please present to the witness number 5957 and you may
1 do it in the old, bad, legible copy. If you haven't got one, I have one
2 for you here, and ask the witness whether she can read any name on that
3 document which...
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am looking for this
5 document ending with 57. I do not know if I have it here. I see 56.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the time being, I could give you the copies
7 you attached originally to your submission file.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly, Mr. President. Thank
9 you. Oh, yes, I was just handed this document this very instant. I may
10 show this document, if this is necessary. I may ask some more questions
11 then relating to this
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...to ask this
13 question, could you please put it in front of the witness.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly.
15 Q. Witness, can you see your name appearing on this document?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 On this document, Witness, do you see some typing, some words
19 that can be read from right to left and left to right, basically at the
20 bottom of this page?
21 Witness, do you see that the words written on this document where
22 written from left to right and from right to left?
23 A. Do you mean at the very bottom of the page?
24 Q. Yes, that is precisely it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: A matter in dispute. I expect --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. It is
2 not. But --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know, I have to ask Mr. Ierace. I see the
4 text going from right to left and from left to right
5 MR. IERACE: That is not in dispute, Mr. President. It is simply
6 what someone is seeing from the reverse.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Where it comes from is a different matter.
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
10 Mr. Usher, would you be kind enough to hand me this document.
11 Please give it back to me.
12 Q. Witness, you have compared the two squares that appear in this
13 document and they seem to be printed in reverse, one is the reverse of
14 the other. I would like to draw your attention to one particular point.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what I am
16 trying to do right now is I am trying to compare. I withdraw this
17 question. Since one portion of this copy is not produced in the
18 original, I cannot ask the question that I wished to ask.
19 Thank you.
20 Q. Witness, I would like to ask that we place actually on the ELMO
21 the picture that we have seen earlier bearing mark 2363. This is a
22 document that I am handing to the usher right now, document P2363.
23 Madam, do you see this picture and can we also place it on the
25 JUDGE ORIE: No. We are not in closed session at this moment.
1 Because of the protective measures.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Can become closed session or --
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. That will
5 not be necessary.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please put the photo in front
7 of the witness. It is for your protection, Mrs. AJ, that we don't want at
8 this moment where to have any photographs on that machine so that anyone
9 outside this courtroom could also see it. It is just a very short moment,
10 Madam Registrar. It didn't. So we not need to give a decision for
11 redaction. Just leave it in front of you. Yes.
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Terribly sorry, Mr. President.
14 This technical detail completely escaped me.
15 Q. Witness, we all remember that on this picture -- we will not place
16 the picture on the ELMO for the above mentioned reasons -- but you have
17 indicated with a cross a place which you have also indicated with the
18 number one; do you see this mark that you yourself placed?
19 A. Yes. This is what we call the shopping of Grbavica.
20 Q. Witness --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am terribly sorry. Can you speak
22 louder. I can't really hear well.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, would you please
24 turn the volume up.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you assist the witness.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you hear me, ma'am?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Yes, it is better. Thank you.
5 Madam, I thought it under the cross with which you have indicated
6 a number one, you meant to indicate a tall building; a high-rise, could
7 you please answer?
8 A. Yes, it is a very tall building that we call the shopping in
10 Q. Very well.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Would you please take back
12 this picture, Mr. Usher. Thank you very much. And give it back to the
13 clerk. Thank you.
14 I would have two more questions, Mr. President.
15 Q. Witness, you have stated earlier -- can you hear me?
16 A. No, not very well.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you perhaps -- I will give you
18 another headphone, Mrs. AJ. I hope that this is better. Yes?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Madam, you have stated not long ago that you had a work
23 obligation, do you remember?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Madam, if I ask you the following question: Is it true to say
1 that you were working for the army at the time; would you be able to
3 A. No, no.
4 Q. You cannot answer or you were not working for the army?
5 A. No, I was not. No, not a chance.
6 Q. Madam, one last question: When did you hand out the original
7 documents to the OTP?
8 A. Yesterday.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. Yesterday afternoon.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 But you had it during the interview of June of 2001, you were in
13 possession of those documents in June of 2001?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But you had these documents with you during the interview?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You very much.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that concludes
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Mr. Ierace
21 MR. IERACE: Just one matter. It relates to questions asked by Mr.
22 Piletta-Zanin -- Ms. Pilipovic on page 79 of the transcript. Two
23 questions and the answers commencing at line 17.
24 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:
25 Q. Madam, you were asked whether you saw anyone else at the time that
1 you were shot, and in particular, you were told that in your
2 statement to the investigators you had said that you noticed a person
3 in sight. You then replied, "No, that is not what I said.
4 Did you in fact say in your statement dated the 25th of June,
5 2001, these words, "I noticed that I was the only person in sight
6 [Realtime transcript read in error "inside"] and things seemed very
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
11 Mrs. AJ, since the Judges have no further questions to you, this
12 concludes your examination as a witness in this court. We want you to
13 know that it is important for this Court to hear the testimony of the
14 people who have been, at relevant times and at relevant places, that have
15 been present and to hear the answer these witnesses give to the questions
16 put by both the Prosecution and the Defence to these witnesses.
17 So I thank you very much that you have come to The Hague because I
18 am quite aware that it is a journey. And I wish you a safe journey home
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of
22 the courtroom.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before you do the exhibits, may
25 I make a correction to the transcript? In relation to the questions that
1 I have just asked in re-examination, instead of the words "in sight," I
2 think they appear instead as one word "inside," i-n-s-i-d-e. That is page
3 91, line 22, and page 92, line 2. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I will just try to find it. Page 91, line 22,
5 reads: "Re-examined by Mr. Ierace." I am looking off my laptop and that
6 is -- yes, I think proper care will be taken of your remark.
7 Then I think we have to deal with the documents.
8 Madam Registrar, could you please assist us.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3679 under seal, pseudonym sheet; Exhibit
10 P3263, photograph and signature sheet under seal.
11 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that the signature sheet is the back of
12 the photograph, Mr. Ierace?
13 MR. IERACE: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3279Y under seal, 360-degree Quicktime
16 movie; Exhibit P3280Y under seal, video; Exhibit P3282, medical
17 documentation in B/C/S; Exhibit P3282.1, English translation, both under
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I only rely on the first two pages on
21 the original and the first two pages of the --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I just wanted those. So that would mean that
23 from P3282, the Prosecution only tenders page 0211-5955, and same number
24 but last digit "6" and the translation related to that. That is as far as
25 the Prosecution is concerned.
1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a remark
3 that I have indeed just made. The Defence cannot accept to be supplied
4 would a great number of exhibit for a single witness, exhibits which are
5 practically all illegible. And we cannot accept not receiving legible
6 copies before the actual testimony of the witness. And since we know that
7 in June, year 2001, as we could see from the testimony of the witness, it
8 has been almost a year since then, so the Prosecution was in a position to
9 produce perfectly or sufficiently legible copies since the witness
10 supplied such documents, such copies. We cannot accept being supplied
11 with these documents just a few hours before the hearing, and the
12 Prosecution has to comply with its basic obligation to disclose such
13 documents to us. As far as these facts are concerned, the Defence
14 considers that its rights were infringed, both in the case of this witness
15 and the previous witness. The Defence is then required to prepare without
16 having access to such important documents. Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE ORIE: May I first ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the
18 Prosecution has tendered only the first two pages of P3282. Are these new
19 documents -- I know that you were only provided with them yesterday. So
20 would they have been legible enough as such?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for this
22 question. Questioning a witness does not amount to questioning the
23 witness only about only these two pages, these two documents.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I am perfectly aware of that. I myself was -- this
25 is a different issue than I am at this moment dealing with. It means, is
1 last two digits 55 and 56 as they have been presented today by the
2 Prosecutor, would they have been, well, acceptably legible?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would have to
4 see them again, to go through them again, but to our mind -- yes, thank
5 you. To our mind, it doesn't really change anything to the fact that --
6 JUDGE ORIE: First I am putting a question to you, and whether it
7 would change anything is a different matter. But I would like to know and
8 the Chamber would like to know.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can make out some of the
10 lines. I can read something.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell us what you cannot read, Mr.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I must notice with great deal
14 of interest, Mr. President, and once again I must say that this is a
15 typical example of what goes on. I must notice with a great deal of
16 surprise that the entry date for this witness would have been the 27th of
17 November, 1992 --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin --
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President --
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- I was talking about legibility.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I read so well --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- must be in this document is fine, but I am just
23 asking you now about legibility and which words or which parts you cannot
24 read so that we can pay attention to that.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will answer immediately. I
1 have some difficulties reading the second line and the third line of this
2 text regarding the document ending with 55. But the date, the entry, the
3 27th of November, 1992 is perfectly clear and it completely contradicts
4 all the other statements made by the witness. I read relatively well the
5 line two, line two of the document 56, second line of document 56.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now you are commenting. Of course you are entirely
7 free to make whatever -- to put whatever questions to witnesses or to
8 experts and whether it contradicts other evidence. What I am
9 concentrating about now is that you raise the issue of illegibility. I
10 want to find what is illegible. You say the first two lines of the text
11 and you are referring to, well, let's say to the bigger block of text
12 which is in the bottom part, the lower half; is that correct?
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If we are talking about the
14 page ending with number 55, I said in fact, Mr. President, that the second
15 and third line is, to my mind, not very legible. If we go to the
16 second page of this document ending with numbers 56, I can say that I
17 cannot read very clearly what is written in the first line, but I believe
18 that for somebody who knows this, was a bigger expert in these matters,
19 maybe they can read it better than I can
20 JUDGE ORIE: That is clear. Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I do
21 understand that your objection goes further to the extent that other
22 documents not tendered by the Prosecution were not legible either. I
23 think they are attached to your "determination de la defense a redaction a
24 la problematique des pieces illisible." So we can take notice of that.
25 We also can now compare the quality of the documents that you have
1 submitted to be provided to you, and the Prosecution could respond to
2 that, if possible. We will give a decision on that in a later stage. I
3 think we should first should consider the matter.
4 Is there any other document? Since you want to question the
5 witness about -- as a matter of fact, you questioned witness about the
6 document with the numbers last two digits 57 and 58. Do you want to
7 tender them or?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me please consult my
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me apologise to the interpreters' booth.
11 Although I intended to stop at a quarter to 2.00, and we took five minutes
12 more. I think it will be a matter of one, two, or three minutes. Would
13 it be possible for you to proceed for these couple of minutes?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Absolutely, Mr. President.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we do not wish
16 to add anything more. The answer is no. I think they are already an
17 annex of our submission.
18 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid whatever misunderstanding, Mr.
19 Piletta-Zanin, if you attach something to a submission to the Court, that
20 does not mean that it is admitted into evidence and I perfectly, coming
21 from a similar background, I perfectly understand that type of reason,
22 that is, if it is in the file, it is something that the Chamber can take
23 into consideration. But of course admitting into evidence is a different
24 matter in the tradition from which most of the rules of this Court stem.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, then, Mr.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President if my friend does not wish to tender
4 those two pages, I propose to tender them. I would be grateful however
5 if the pages attached to P3282 be tendered, rather than the ones that were
6 shown to the witness because the ones which are part of P3282 are far
7 more legible.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think part of the evidence was just about whether
9 it was legible or not. So therefore only the badly legible copies have
10 been presented to the witness.
11 MR. IERACE: In that case, Mr. President, perhaps I should
12 formally tender additionally to my earlier tender as part of P3282, those
13 pages 5957 and 5958, regardless of whether Mr. Piletta-Zanin tenders the
14 two pages which he showed to the witness
15 JUDGE ORIE: So we have then now in front of us the Prosecution
16 tendering 55, 56, 57 and 58 and it being part of P3282 and the
17 Prosecution -- and the Defence, if you want to tender it, then we have
18 the same ERN numbers, but it would have a D number in front of it.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, then the
20 difficulty would be the following: The difficulty we will tender will
21 formally, or will not be the same document as the one stemming from the
22 Prosecution. It is not the same document tendered by the Prosecution
23 because we have it in a legible version so that things are clear. This is
24 why I am saying this. Then we will photocopy them and hand them with your
25 leave, Mr. President, either on Monday or at the end of the meeting
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: What I suggest to do is by way of exception, the
2 numbers 57 and 58 will be taken from the attachment so that we
3 are quite sure that that is the legibility and that as a matter of
4 exception we will see whether we can have copies made, and then there
5 would be a D number and it would be D --
6 THE REGISTRAR: D92.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that tender for the Prosecution
8 includes the translation for those two pages as well, thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It is one translation for 57 and 58 because there is
10 no legibility problem and I don't see any difference in the translation.
11 So tendering the translation, I think the Prosecution -- I am sorry.
12 That is what happens if you go on too long.
13 So the translation is just tendered by the Prosecution, not by
14 the Defence?
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is correct, Mr.
16 President. Thank you very much for this solution. We really appreciate
17 this very much.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn not until tomorrow, but until next
19 Monday at a quarter past 2.00, if I am correct, Madam Registrar, in this
20 same courtroom. So we have the long afternoon session.
21 Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: Just one final matter. Given the requirement of seven
23 days notice, I will confirm in writing this afternoon that we will call
24 Robert Donia next Thursday. I think that allows seven clear days. In the
25 meantime, if the Defence indicates to me in more detail the pages they are
1 missing, then I would be happy to provide them.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then I wish everyone a good weekend. I wouldn't say
5 a long weekend, but since some of us might see it fit to continue
6 working also when we are not sitting. Until next Monday.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
8 2.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
9 the 15th day of April, 2002, at 2:15 p.m.