1 Wednesday, 24 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Good morning to everyone. Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to

10 call its next witness?

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there are two issues that perhaps

12 could be dealt with first very quickly. The first is a concern in

13 relation to the timetable this week, and Mr. Stamp will say something in

14 relation to that. It is a matter of particular concern, I think, to the

15 Defence. So perhaps Mr. Piletta-Zanin...

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. In fact,

18 the Prosecution and the Defence met a minute ago and came to the

19 conclusion that it would be possible for the witnesses who remain for

20 this week, it would be possible for them to be heard, all of them could

21 be heard up until -- by Thursday. Unless we could have a free day perhaps

22 in order to get prepared. Unfortunately, on Friday, Ms. Pilipovic will

23 not be here and it will therefore not be possible to examine other

24 witnesses who weren't warned for this week for certain technical reasons.

25 So if we could organise things in order to finish by tomorrow, that would

1 allow everyone to use the time as best as possible rather than have the

2 hearing suddenly brought to an end.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I am emphasising that, in general, this kind of

4 arrangement would not bind the Chamber. Every day lost in court is lost

5 in court. But Under these specific circumstances and also knowing that a

6 witness had to arrive on Thursday or Friday, that if there was a risk that

7 we couldn't finish with that witness, he would be here and for the whole

8 next week we will not be sitting. Apart from that, I can't imagine that

9 we had Good Friday off, and I wish everyone a good Easter weekend but

10 there is another Easter weekend coming. But under these specific

11 circumstances, the Chamber is willing to accept these proposals of the

12 parties and only wishes that three days for three witnesses reduced to two

13 days for three witnesses would be an encouraging experience for the

14 parties.

15 So, we were informed already about this plan. So please

16 proceed, Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 The second issue concerns the application by the Defence for a

19 certificate pursuant to Rule 73(C) of the Rules. That was filed on the

20 18th of April, being the same date -- being the date also of the decision

21 in respect of which this certificate is sought. My question is simply

22 whether the -- whether you, Mr. President and Your Honours, require a

23 response from the Prosecution in relation to that application for a

24 certificate or whether that is not necessary.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we are in a -- we are in a bit of an odd

1 situation where we might have to deal with transitional law, that is, that

2 it would not surprise me if one of these days a change in the Rules of

3 Procedure and Evidence would be made public, which would require the

4 Trial Chamber itself to grant the certificate. So we are a bit in a

5 situation. It is, finally, it is a three members Bench of the Appeals

6 Chamber have to deal with it. So it would be difficult for me to say

7 what we would expect, because we will not hear that application unless the

8 Bench of the Appeals Chamber might not have dealt with it in due time and

9 then, of course, also depending on whether the transitional law would

10 require the Appeals Chamber to finish that application or that, meanwhile,

11 it would have to be dealt with by the Trial Chamber.

12 So I saw it was about the acts and the conduct of the accused,

13 that was the main issue. I would say that it is an issue that might have

14 come up already in the Milosevic case, but there was no appeal lodged in

15 that case as far as I am aware of.

16 So let me just confer with my colleagues and see whether we, at

17 this moment, this Chamber requires the Prosecution to respond or not.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there is another factor and that is

19 the Prosecution has made a further filing in relation to the decision of

20 the 18th of April.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I have seen that. There has been a misunderstanding

22 about a witness still to be called on an event which occurred on the same

23 day as another event. We will deal with that rather quickly.

24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will further guide you after the break,

2 Mr. Ierace. If there is nothing else --

3 MR. IERACE: Nothing else, Mr. President. Might I be excused

4 until after the break?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Your next witness, Mr. Aganovic, Mr. Stamp?

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Aganovic, I presume. Can you hear

8 me in a language you understand?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Aganovic, before giving testimony in this court,

11 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

12 declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing

13 but the truth, and the text of this declaration will be handed out to

14 you now by the usher. May I invite you to make that declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

17 WITNESS: REFIK AGANOVIC

18 JUDGE ORIE: Being called by a witness by the Prosecution, you

19 will first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.

20 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

21 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Aganovic.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. Could you start by telling us whether you live in the city of

1 Sarajevo?

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter can't hear the witness.

3 MR. STAMP: I would ask you to come forward closer to the

4 microphones.

5 Q. The question is, do you live in Sarajevo?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. And for how long have you lived there?

8 A. Since 1964. From 1964 up until now. For 30 years, over 30

9 years.

10 Q. Which area of Sarajevo did you live in in 1994?

11 A. Near Rajlovac. Brijesce, Rajlovac.

12 Q. And I am asking you about the year 1994, where did you live in

13 that year?

14 A. In Brijesce, next to Rajlovac. It is on the outskirts of the

15 town.

16 Q. I see. Now, do you remember the 22nd of January, 1994?

17 A. I remember that I was going into field. I lived in the field

18 from 1964. I was in the field for about 15 years in Yugoslavia.

19 Q. Very well.

20 Now I wish to take you to a particular day and that day is the

21 22nd of January, 1994.

22 A. Yes, I understand.

23 Q. Do you recall that day?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. That morning, did you go anywhere in particular, that is the

1 morning of the 24th of January, 1994?

2 JUDGE ORIE: The 22nd.

3 MR. STAMP:

4 Q. I beg your pardon, the 22nd of January, 1994. That is the day

5 that we are going to be speaking about. That morning, did you go

6 anywhere?

7 A. I went to the civilian protection.

8 Q. Where did you go there from? In other words, from where did you

9 leave to go to the civil protection?

10 A. From my street, Bosanska 4.

11 Q. Do you remember what Bosanska 4 was called in 1994?

12 A. The Klara Zetkin Street, that is what it used to be called.

13 Q. When you say "from my street," you mean you lived there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And Klara Zetkin Street, as it was called then, is in Alipasino

16 Polje district?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could I take it then in 1994, at least in January 1994, you lived

19 in Alipasino Polje?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you return home from the civil protection?

22 A. Yes. During lunch, before lunch.

23 Q. About what time did you return home?

24 A. That was in the afternoon, 1.00, half past 1.00, something like

25 that. I can't remember exactly what time it was, but it was about

1 midday.

2 Q. Could you describe the building in which you lived at Klara

3 Zetkin 4?

4 A. I can describe it. What do you mean exactly?

5 Q. Was it a single-storey building? We can start with that.

6 A. It has 16 floors.

7 Q. And in which floor did you live?

8 A. On the 14th.

9 Q. So when you said you went home, you went to your home on the 14th

10 floor; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Before you entered your building that afternoon, did you see

13 anyone in particular outside of the building?

14 A. Not in front of the building, but the children who were killed,

15 they were a little further away, a little further away from the building.

16 Q. Could you just tell us where they were and what they were doing?

17 A. They were sleighing. The weather was fine. It was silent.

18 Q. And exactly where were they sleighing?

19 A. Well, from my entrance, if you are looking towards my side -- if

20 you are looking to my side, it was sort of north of the entrance. That's

21 where the children would gather. It was in front of the school in

22 Alipasino.

23 Q. And while you were in your apartment, did you hear anything?

24 A. Not until the first shell landed.

25 Q. You heard a shell land. I am going to ask you to describe very

1 slowly what you heard and saw while you were in your apartment.

2 A. Well, I heard a hissing of the shell, as usual. That was usual.

3 If it went over my entrance, my building.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that in the

5 transcript part of what the witness said was not mentioned, but he is

6 just saying what he started saying a minute ago so we could let him

7 continue. It is just a matter of the identity of the two transcripts.

8 JUDGE ORIE: It is not in the French transcript, do I understand

9 you well?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think it is in the French

11 transcript, but as it is not in the English transcript, Mr. President, it

12 was in order to ensure that the two transcripts are identical. I think

13 that is important.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Since you mention it now, I take it that it will

15 properly be taken care of while working on the transcript.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

17 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. You said you heard the hissing sound of the shell passing over

19 your apartment?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did you hear anything after that?

22 A. I heard an explosion.

23 Q. Where did this explosion come from, the sound come from?

24 A. From the west.

25 Q. Could you say which particular place the shell exploded?

1 A. It exploded above the square, over my building and then above the

2 square, and it went down to the end of Klara Zetkin, right to the end. It

3 passed the square where the civilian protection is. It didn't fall on the

4 square but further beyond, towards the east. The west and east.

5 Q. Okay. Could you say where in relation to your apartment building

6 the first shell that you heard fell?

7 A. The first shell, I didn't see where the fell, it exploded, but it

8 was nearby. The explosion was very loud so it was possible to hear it.

9 Q. Was it behind, to the front, or to the side of the apartment

10 building that you lived in?

11 A. Behind. Beyond my building, towards the east, the west and the

12 east.

13 Q. After you heard the shell explode, what followed after that?

14 A. Nothing. I continued to have my lunch as I knew that it hadn't

15 hit the Solidarity Square where the civil protection was. Otherwise, I

16 would have had to go out immediately and run to save the wounded.

17 Q. Did you hear anything after that?

18 A. After that, a minute and-a-half or two minutes after that, a

19 second shell fell. I didn't hear it sound, but it fell in the direction

20 of the north, to the northern side of my entrance.

21 Q. Do you know the place where it fell?

22 A. I didn't see where exactly it fell, but I am sure that it fell on

23 my -- towards my -- to my right side, to what is the north. We are

24 situated on a slope, on a hill.

25 Q. When you say, "it fell on your right side," is that the right side

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1 facing away from the front of your apartment or facing the front of your

2 apartment?

3 A. Yes, facing the front of my apartment. Facing the front part of

4 my apartment, but looking from the entrance to my building, it would be

5 the north, that is, to the right. Looking from the west where it had

6 come from.

7 Q. After you heard this second shell explode, did you do anything?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. What did you do?

10 A. I went out. I opened the window. I wanted to see whether anyone

11 was wounded in the vicinity.

12 Q. Which window did you open?

13 A. I opened the window of the large room, of the living room facing

14 the west.

15 Q. Is that a window to the front or the side or the back of your

16 apartment?

17 A. It is at the front side facing the west.

18 Q. Did anything happen --

19 A. Where the shells were coming from. As soon as I opened the

20 window, a third one fell right in front of my entrance so I couldn't do

21 anything. I just heard the explosion and I was thrown back towards the

22 window. And I ran down the stairs and, as I said, I lived on the 14th

23 floor, and went down to the entrance of the building.

24 Q. When you went down to the entrance of the building, tell us what,

25 if anything, you saw there.

1 A. I saw Nermin Rizvanovic in the doorway of the entrance. He was

2 outside at the time the detonation happened. He was about 13 years of

3 age. I didn't see anything in particular on him, but he all of a sudden

4 fell down on the floor and died.

5 Q. Do you know where he lived?

6 A. One -- rather, two floors above me on the 16th floor. I live on

7 the 14th and he lived on the 16th floor.

8 Q. Did you notice anything at all about him? Was he injured?

9 A. Nothing.

10 Q. And did you see anyone else at the front of your apartment?

11 A. I saw a small boy by the name of Subasic who was even younger than

12 this one. There were no particular signs on him indicating that he was

13 wounded, but he also died.

14 Q. Were any of these children bleeding?

15 A. Not these two. Whereas other children whom I saw on the right

16 side, that was terrible. There was blood all over.

17 Q. Where exactly was this?

18 A. You could see their ribs. On the right side, immediately after

19 you leave the building, not more than 5 metres away from the entrance as

20 you get out of the building. 5 to 10 metres. They were closer to the

21 shell than to the entrance so they didn't manage to get to the entrance.

22 Q. And could you tell us what, if anything, you observed about these

23 children?

24 A. All I was able to observe was blood and the bodies of these

25 children scattered all around. But I was in a hurry. I was carrying

1 these two young boys. We hoped that they would survive, but no. And that

2 is why I didn't stay there.

3 Q. Did they, Mr. Aganovic, did the two young boys survive?

4 A. No, no, they did not. They died on the spot.

5 Q. Among the other children that you saw there, did you recognise

6 any?

7 A. I recognised these two, but I couldn't recognise others because

8 they were covered in blood. Parts of their bodies were missing. I was

9 not able to think much in those moments. I was trying to save these two

10 boys.

11 Q. Did other residents of the building come down to help?

12 A. There were two of them. I think the father of one of the boys who

13 was killed and another person who had two daughters amongst this group of

14 children who came down and covered them with a blanket. It was such a

15 terrible sight. He didn't want it to be seen.

16 Q. And were there any wounded children there?

17 A. Yes, there were. But I didn't see them. Six of the children

18 were killed, six of them were dead, and there were some who were wounded,

19 who were a little further from the point of impact. This is at least

20 what I heard later on from other residents of the building.

21 Q. And from what you heard, were these children also taken away to

22 hospital?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You said you arrived home sometime after 1.00 that afternoon. In

25 the area in front of your building were the children were playing, did you

1 see any type of military activity going on that afternoon?

2 A. No, there was no activity at the time. It was quite sudden.

3 Q. When the second shell fell and you moved to the window to look

4 out, did you see any soldiers or any type of military activity in the area

5 outside of your apartment?

6 A. It happened in a second, in a fraction of a second. As soon as I

7 opened the window, this explosion occurred. So I couldn't see anything

8 through the smoke and the flesh, and at that moment I was thrown back by

9 the detonation. I didn't think much, I just ran down the stairs to see if

10 anyone could be saved, if there were any casualties.

11 Q. You said that you were returning from the civil protection. At

12 that time, did you work at the civil protection?

13 A. Yes, I did. And after that as well.

14 Q. Where exactly was that office?

15 A. Behind my building, to the east of my building.

16 Q. Can you say about how far from your building that civil protection

17 office was?

18 A. About 150 metres.

19 Q. Is it in a particular square? Could you tell us the name of the

20 square?

21 A. Solidarnosti Square, the Solidarity Square.

22 Q. Is that what it was called in 1994?

23 A. It used to be called Klara Zetkin. After that it was renamed and

24 it became Trg Nezanisnosti, Independence Square. I must admit I didn't

25 give it much thought. I am not able to provide you with any specific

1 details. I wasn't really interested in that until the war broke out. I

2 never spent much time there at that square, actually. So I may be

3 mistaken in respect of some of the details. It was only during the war

4 that I became familiar with the area. But again, I am really not

5 familiar with the details concerning this square.

6 Q. What type of work did you do before the war started?

7 A. In the construction business.

8 Q. And what type of work did you do during the war while you were in

9 the civil protection?

10 A. Helping unloading the humanitarian aid, helping with the wounded,

11 repairing damaged apartments damaged in shelling so that they could be

12 repaired and made fit for living. Because shells were hitting

13 apartments, streets. My apartment was also hit with a shell.

14 Q. That civil protection office, do you know of the personnel there

15 performing any task on behalf of the military?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Had you ever seen soldiers there?

18 A. I would see them in passing. Some of them would be wearing

19 camouflage uniforms, but no weapons. They had no weapons. I would see

20 them when they were going home, coming back from the front line, when they

21 were off-duty.

22 Q. Now, that afternoon, the afternoon of the 22nd of January, 1994,

23 did police officers arrive on the scene to investigate the shelling?

24 A. Yes, they did, afterwards.

25 Q. And did you show them the sites, the impact sites?

1 A. Yes, I did. But one could plainly see it. But I also showed

2 them the place where the shell hit.

3 Q. You told us that the area was shelled quite frequently. Could

4 you tell us a little bit more about that? Were there any casualties that

5 you know of in the area that you lived?

6 A. Yes there were casualties. In total, nine persons from my

7 entrance were killed. There was a young man, aged 22 or 23, who got

8 killed. The others were children, nine children. Actually, nine

9 persons in total were killed, including this young man, and the rest were

10 just children, under-age children.

11 Q. This young man, can you say when he was killed and what caused

12 his death?

13 A. Before the six children were killed, he had been hit by a shell

14 right in front of the entrance to the building. He was unloading

15 firewood from a truck and taking it to his apartment. He was there with

16 his relative or a cousin, and they were both killed. A shell hit a point

17 right in front of them, apparently right before his feet.

18 Q. Can you --

19 A. Having come from the west, also.

20 Q. Can you say about how long before the 22nd of January, 1994 this

21 young man was killed?

22 A. Before that.

23 Q. Can you just approximate the time, about how long before that?

24 A. Well, I know that there have been casualties at this very square

25 where the civilian protection is located. There was a mosque situated in

1 the vicinity. People went there to pray. But the shelling was constant

2 and there were many casualties. There were casualties in my street, both

3 on the left and the right side of the street. But the worst massacre

4 occurred when these six children were killed. And other incidents

5 involved casualties as well. Some people got killed, some were only

6 wounded. But I am not sure about the details.

7 Q. You said that the shelling came from the west. Can you tell us

8 why do you say that it came from the west?

9 A. Because where these children were killed, this is a spot where a

10 shell could not have come from any other place. And in view of the kind

11 of impact of the shell, it was easy to tell whether it had come from the

12 south, south-westerly direction, or from the west. So you could tell

13 according to the impact of the shell where it had come from.

14 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I have nothing

15 further in chief.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

17 Mr. Aganovic, you will now be examined by counsel for the Defence.

18 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Aganovic.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. You testified during the examination-in-chief that you had lived

25 in Brijesce at Rajlovac since 1965?

1 A. Up until 1984.

2 Q. Where did you live after 1984?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to speak into the

4 microphone, please.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Aganovic, the interpreters have difficulties in

6 hearing you if you are too far away from the microphone. Yes.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You are not used to it. I do understand that it is

9 not easy. Yes.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, I am not, that's true.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Aganovic, so you have lived in Bosanska since 1984; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Can you tell us when the conflict in Sarajevo started, according

16 to you?

17 A. In 1992.

18 Q. When in 1992 did this conflict in Sarajevo break out?

19 A. I believe it was in April or May. I don't know exactly, but it

20 must have been sometime between April and May, 1992.

21 Q. Did you respond to the call-up for mobilisation?

22 A. No, I did not. Actually, I did, but I was declared unfit for

23 military service so I was assigned to the civilian protection.

24 Q. Do you know the exact street or the exact location where the

25 premises of the civilian protection were housed?

1 A. No, I couldn't describe that in detail. I must admit, I was not

2 very interested in these things.

3 Q. Can you describe at least the building where the premises of the

4 civilian protection were locate?

5 A. The buildings in question were three or four-storey buildings, not

6 very high.

7 Q. In which part of the Alipasino Polje neighbourhood was the

8 civilian protection located?

9 A. Behind my building. Not more than 150 metres away from my

10 building, but behind it. To the east of the entrance to my building.

11 Q. Were these buildings also part of your street?

12 A. Yes. There are some high-rise buildings in my street but the

13 buildings surrounding the square were not that high, as I said, three or

14 four-storey buildings. There was a skyscraper in the vicinity but these

15 buildings were not very high.

16 Q. Are you telling us that the civilian protection building was

17 located at that square?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Behind your building?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. Can you tell us whether, according to your knowledge, the police

22 also had their premises at the square near these buildings?

23 A. The police is located a little further away from the building. It

24 is -- it is still there and they were there even before the war and during

25 the war and after the war.

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1 Q. Do you know that the premises of the Croatian Defence Council were

2 also there on the square?

3 A. No, they were not. The Croatian Defence Council, as far as I

4 know, never had any premises there.

5 Q. You have lived at Alipasino Polje since 1984. I would like to

6 know whether there was a restaurant called "Stela" near the civilian

7 protection building?

8 A. Stela? No. No. I don't know about that.

9 Q. You testified today about the incident which occurred on the 22nd

10 of January, as you stated?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The incident took place in Klara Zetkin Street at house number 4?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know what is the distance between the place where the

15 incident took place and the front lines?

16 A. Looking from my entrance towards the west, I think that they were

17 some 2000 metres away.

18 Q. You're telling us that it was 2000 metres away from your house

19 looking towards the westward part of Alipasino Polje?

20 A. Nedzarici, Stup and Ilidza.

21 Q. You say Nedzarici, Stup and Ilidza. I am interested in Stup. Do

22 you know which army had its positions there?

23 A. There are actually two locations there, the Stupsko Brdo and Stup,

24 and the separation line was there opposing two armies.

25 Q. Do you know which particular army was there?

1 A. Well, the BH army and the other army. I mean the soldiers of

2 Republika Srpska.

3 Q. You say the army or the soldiers of Republika Srpska?

4 A. Yes, that is what it was called.

5 Q. As far as the BH army is concerned, do you know whether during

6 that period of time during the conflict, how they were dressed?

7 A. Some had uniforms and some had civilian clothes. People managed

8 as best as they could.

9 Q. During the conflict in the town of Sarajevo, in the neighbourhood

10 where you lived and with respect to Nedzarici, where exactly the

11 positions of the BH army were?

12 A. I couldn't clearly see them. I could see the area of Nedzarici

13 and the houses there and that is where the positions were. But the troops

14 were even further away, some 5 kilometres from there, so I was not able to

15 see them. I mean, I didn't see the separation line. That was at quite a

16 distance, some 5 kilometres away, as I said.

17 Q. You said that you could see the area of the Nedzarici including

18 small family houses there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are you telling us that Serbs lived in Nedzarici?

21 A. Yes, only Serbs.

22 Q. Are you telling us that the army of Republika Srpska was deployed

23 there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us where the BH army soldiers were with respect to

1 Nedzarici?

2 A. To the right, towards the north.

3 Q. Can you tell us what specific location, what specific street or

4 part of the town that is?

5 A. I believe the area in question was called Stupsko Brdo, the Stup

6 hill. At least that is what I heard.

7 Q. When looking from your window facing Nedzarici, is it possible

8 for you to see the area called Vojnicko Polje?

9 A. No, you cannot see Vojnicko Polje. All I can see is Alipasino

10 Polje. But Vojnicko Polje is further away towards the west. It is

11 actually very close to Nedzarici. It is part of Nedzarici so I think it

12 is some 2 or 3 kilometres away from my building.

13 Q. Do you know which army held its positions in Vojnicko Polje?

14 A. I think it was the BH army, but the separation line with the Serb

15 army was -- was there as well.

16 Q. From your window, can you see the Mojmilo hill?

17 A. Yes, I can. It is situated towards the south, to the left side.

18 Q. As you leave your apartment and the entrance to your building, are

19 you facing the Mojmilo hill?

20 A. No. I mean, you can see the Mojmilo hill, but the entrance to the

21 building itself faces west.

22 Q. During the conflict in Sarajevo, 1992, 1993 and 1994, do you know

23 which army had their positions at the Mojmilo hill?

24 A. Well, the Serb army was at the edge of the Mojmilo hill area, but

25 the JNA was there before, that is the Yugoslav army, and then the Serb

1 army. But the BH army, that is the defence, the Bosnian defence, was also

2 there, and these people didn't wear uniforms. They wore civilian clothes.

3 Q. Could you tell us during the conflict in Sarajevo in 1992, 1993,

4 and 1994, was there any fighting in Alipasino Polje between the two

5 armies?

6 A. Yes, in Mojmilo and Nedzarici and, as I said, in Vojnicko Polje,

7 that is where there was fighting from the beginning, in 1992.

8 Q. When you say, "from the beginning of 1992," could you tell us

9 whether there was any fighting in 1993 and 1994 between those two armies?

10 A. No, there wasn't because the army of Republika Srpska had

11 withdrawn from some positions and these others came up closer. So there

12 was no fighting. It was mostly in the surroundings of Sarajevo, in the

13 hills. There was more free territory then so that the BH army also had

14 its positions in the hills that they got in the course of the fighting.

15 Q. When you say that the BH army had positions which they obtained in

16 the course of the fighting in the hills, can you tell us which parts this

17 army was in?

18 A. Well, it was Mojmilo. It was in Mojmilo, Zuc, and Stupsko Brdo.

19 Mojmilo, Zuc, Stupsko Brdo. That is what I knew about.

20 Q. Mr. Aganovic, could you tell us what the day was like on the 21st

21 of -- 22nd of January?

22 A. It was a fine day. It was warm. People were out to get some air

23 because they had been spending time in the houses, in cellars.

24 Q. You told us that after you heard or rather saw the third shell,

25 that you went down?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How long did it take you to get to the entrance?

3 A. I ran down and maybe it took me a minute and-a-half or so because

4 I was running very quickly.

5 Q. When you say that you ran up into the lift, are you telling us

6 that the lift was working but you didn't take it?

7 A. Yes, when there was electricity, it would work, but naturally it

8 didn't work when there was no electricity. I didn't pay any attention to

9 the lift.

10 Q. When you say there was no electricity --

11 A. Well, sometimes there was and sometimes there wasn't. But I

12 didn't want to -- I think the -- I don't think I should have used the

13 lift.

14 Q. In 1992, 1993 and 1994, could you tell us how often the

15 electricity supply was cut off?

16 A. Well, there was a reduction in the electricity supply. This

17 happened very often in the course of the day. Sometimes someone would

18 have no electricity for a few days or for a day or for half a day. It

19 depended. And then there would be failures so you wouldn't have any

20 electricity again and you would wait for your turn again, because people

21 sort of took it in turns to have a supply of electricity. They tried to

22 save electricity. But when there was shelling, a fault would occur and it

23 was necessary to wait again. Sometimes there was electricity, sometimes

24 there wasn't any.

25 Q. Mr. Aganovic, when you say that -- when you talk about these

1 reductions in the electricity supply, can you tell us what the situation

2 was like in Alipasino Polje with regard to water?

3 A. Well, it was not very good. People went to sources to get water.

4 To the "A" phase, that is below, further down below, there was a water

5 supply there. But they would also take turns to do this. They would

6 always go occasionally. Water wasn't available all the time. It was

7 available occasionally. So as far as water is concerned, it was more

8 difficult -- it was quite difficult to obtain it.

9 Q. Mr. Aganovic, when you say sometimes there was water and

10 sometimes there wasn't, are you trying -- are you telling us that there

11 was a reduction in the water supply, too?

12 A. Yes, there was.

13 Q. When this incident occurred in which children were killed, could

14 you tell us how many children died on that day?

15 A. Six children died. I don't know how many wounded children there

16 were, but I know about these six children. There were six children in

17 front of the entrance itself. One of the children was from another

18 building, but I knew the other five. They were all refugees, apart from

19 one, that is Nerman Rizvanovic. He had been a resident for some time.

20 Q. Mr. Aganovic, you told us the police came to the site of the

21 incident.

22 A. They came later on, when the children had been taken away.

23 Q. Could you tell us how long afterwards they came?

24 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that. I don't know whether they

25 came immediately because I stayed in the civilian protection while the

1 children were being taken away. So I can't tell you whether the

2 commission came on that same day. I think that they came on that day

3 because we stayed on in the civilian protection, and this is why I am not

4 sure.

5 Q. When you say that you think that the police came on the same

6 day --

7 A. Not the police, but a commission of some kind, and the television,

8 they went there to film.

9 Q. On that occasion, did someone speak to you?

10 A. Yes. Someone asked me what had happened, how it had happened,

11 when it had happened, where I was at the time and whom I had saved. I

12 told them what I saw and what I was able to do.

13 Q. You tell us -- you are telling us that six children died. If I

14 tell you that there is a record which states, according to the commission

15 and people who were present, that five children were killed, what would

16 you say?

17 A. No, six. Five from my building, but from another building --

18 there was another child from another building, so that was the sixth

19 child. And in addition to them, there were wounded children to the left

20 and to the right. They had been wounded by the shell. I didn't see them,

21 but I heard that they had been wounded.

22 Q. So you are telling us that six children were killed?

23 A. Yes, it says so on the plaque which they put up there, which the

24 city put up there. It says six children.

25 Q. So on the basis of that information, as it says that there was six

1 children on the plaque, it was on that basis that you tell us there was

2 six?

3 A. Yes, well, it says so on the plaque and it is common knowledge

4 that there were six children.

5 Q. Mr. Aganovic, you told us that a school was in the vicinity.

6 A. Yes. Not exactly in the vicinity, but maybe 200 or 300 metres

7 away.

8 Q. Could you tell us whether that school worked during the conflict

9 from 1992 to 1994?

10 A. Yes. Not in the beginning but later, when people got used to the

11 war, it was open.

12 Q. Could you tell us the name of that school?

13 A. No, because I wasn't that interested in it. I didn't have any

14 children who went to school. I didn't have such small children so that I

15 didn't know what it was called, what its name was, and I wasn't interested

16 in this.

17 Q. When you say that a television crew came, could you tell us which

18 channel came to film this?

19 A. Our television, from the "A" phase, below the hills, so it is very

20 close to them. As soon as something happens, they come. They came to my

21 flat when a shell fell and filmed there. They hear about it and after a

22 certain time, they come to film this, when they hear that something has

23 happened.

24 Q. Mr. Aganovic, when my learned colleague put to you a question, you

25 told them about an incident in which, as you say, two people died while

1 they were carrying firewood.

2 A. Yes. Yes, yes, two.

3 Q. Could you tell us, given that you said that this was before the

4 22nd of January, 1994, could you tell us when this incident happened?

5 A. No, I can't tell you. I don't know the year or the month. I know

6 that it was in winter and they were carrying firewood. It was cold, but I

7 don't know what month it was. No one was interested in when it would fall

8 and what would happen.

9 Q. So you are telling us that you didn't see this incident?

10 A. Yes, I saw both of them. I saw the boy and his cousin. She was

11 13 years old and the boy was about 21, something like that.

12 Q. Could you tell us their names? What was the young man's name?

13 A. I didn't -- I don't know his name. He was a refugee. They were

14 refugees so I never spoke to them.

15 Q. You say that it was winter, but could you tell us what time of day

16 this happened?

17 A. It was just before the evening, late afternoon.

18 Q. Can you tell us whether you know whether there was any fighting in

19 that period?

20 A. No, there wasn't. A shell would fall unexpectedly. It was quite

21 sudden. The shells would always fall unexpectedly. No one would ever

22 expect such things to happen. It simply happens and that is it.

23 Q. Mr. Aganovic, could you tell us when this plaque was erected in

24 Sarajevo, the one in which it says that six children died?

25 A. In the same year, in the spring, I think. They brought the

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1 plaque, sort of monument, and inscribed on the plaque they said that six

2 children had died. It was a sort of commemorative plaque on the building

3 in front of the entrance.

4 Q. You say that you lived in this building where the incident took

5 place?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Mr. Aganovic, when you worked -- during the period you worked in

8 the civilian protection, you said that you distributed humanitarian aid.

9 Could you tell us how often you would distribute humanitarian aid?

10 A. Every 15 days. Sometimes 17 or 18 days, but usually every 15

11 days.

12 Q. With regard to your part of Alipasino Polje, could you tell us in

13 which part of Alipasino Polje you would distribute humanitarian aid?

14 A. Around my building, everyone had their own area. There were

15 people who were -- who had the duty for doing this. I was part of this

16 commission for distributing humanitarian aid. Everyone had his own

17 building. Everyone had a commission and assistant, so I wasn't assigned

18 to other buildings.

19 Q. In 1993 and 1994, could you tell us during which period of the day

20 humanitarian aid would be distributed?

21 A. Well, that depended. Sometimes around midday, sometimes in the

22 morning. It varied. It depended on the possibilities. Whenever it was

23 possible to load and unload aid because they would send this aid from

24 warehouses. No specific times had been sent.

25 Q. While you were working for the civilian protection, did you have

1 any contact with representatives of the UN and UNPROFOR?

2 A. No, I didn't. They were commanders in the civilian protection.

3 They were officials who would speak to them.

4 Q. After the incident of the 22nd of January, did you see or were

5 you informed of the arrival of the representatives of the UN?

6 A. Well, sometimes they would come. They would usually come to the

7 site, but I didn't really pay attention to this and I didn't speak to them

8 either. It was not necessary. There were certain officials who would

9 speak to them.

10 Q. Did you see members of the UN come to the site when this incident

11 occurred, and did you see them filming?

12 A. When I gave my statement, I know that there were members of the UN

13 who were there. Otherwise, whenever there was a large-scale massacre,

14 they would appear there.

15 Q. Could you tell us when you gave a statement for the first time and

16 whom you gave it to?

17 A. I don't know but it was during that same week, during those same

18 days, more or less.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I remind you that you spent as

20 much time in cross as the Prosecution took in examination-in-chief.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I shall try to

22 bring my cross-examination to a conclusion.

23 Q. Mr. Aganovic, do you know whether there were any paramilitary

24 units in the area in which you lived in Alipasino Polje?

25 A. There were paramilitary units only once the war had started.

1 Later, it was the real army.

2 Q. In the area in which you lived, which paramilitary units were in

3 that area?

4 A. I don't know. There weren't really paramilitary units. Well, I

5 mean, they were, but they appeared later on because whoever could save

6 someone or whoever had weapons would turn up.

7 Q. At that time that the conflict broke out as you said, could you

8 tell us which units were present in Alipasino Polje?

9 A. Well, some called Celo, Krusko. They were called something like

10 that. They were independent. They could defend themselves independently,

11 to the extent that this was possible because there were weapons.

12 Q. When you say Celo and Krusko, could you tell us where the

13 staffs were and were they units were located?

14 A. As far as I know, this was in Stupsko Brdo, these units were

15 there. But the army was there already, the BH army was there, and these

16 people, they lived in flats. Nothing had really been organised, no

17 accommodation had been organised. These people would stay in houses.

18 There were no barracks or anything like that that they could open up.

19 Q. So you are telling us that the soldiers from those units and later

20 on from the BH army, they stayed in private houses?

21 A. In private houses, yes. They were just trying to determine where

22 they would meet and what they would do, but this was not something I was

23 interested in. This is something that I heard about. From the beginning,

24 it was surrounded and you just ended up where you were.

25 Q. Mr. Aganovic, when you say that the BH army had been formed after

1 this, do you know whether the 102 Motorised Brigade was in the area

2 of Alipasino Polje?

3 A. No, the 101st was there, but when they were there in the barracks,

4 the Viktor Burban barracks, which is where the regular army of the former

5 Yugoslavia was located, and at the time the BH army was there in Viktor

6 Burban. It was the 101 Motorised but I don't know about any others.

7 Q. Mr. Aganovic, thank you.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think there

9 is a problem in the transcript to the extent that I think that I heard the

10 witness say that these soldiers communicated by telephone, and this is

11 quite important in the eyes of the Defence, and this does not appear in

12 the English transcript. I can't see it in the English transcript.

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... approximately

14 would that have been, Mr. Piletta-Zanin

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] About 30 seconds ago.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So that is when the questions were about the

17 Motorised Brigade, whether the 101st and 102nd.

18 Did you say anything about telephone communication between

19 different parts of military units or army units?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't. I wasn't in contact

21 with. No, no, nothing.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what the

23 witness has just said, he has said in his own language. I think that he

24 said he wasn't in contact with them. What the witness said a minute ago

25 was that the soldiers communicated via telephone -- no, I am sorry. I

1 apologise. What the witness just said was that the soldiers who were in

2 private accommodation, in a certain sense, he said that he communicated

3 over the telephone. I think that the witness said so, and I can see in

4 agreement.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, they didn't have any

6 premises of their own

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Aganovic, did you say anything about telephone

8 communication between military people before, using private telephone or

9 other telephone communications used by? Did you say anything about that?

10 We can't hear you in your own language, you see, so we are dependent on

11 the translation.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin says he heard you saying something

14 about it. It was not translated. Did you say anything about such a

15 subject?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat what you said, exactly.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that from the beginning, from

19 the very beginning, these soldiers who were mounting a resistance who were

20 in that war, they didn't have any barracks in which they could meet. They

21 would come to agreements from the houses in which they were. They would

22 agree on where they would meet. That's how -- that's what happened. There

23 was no other way. Some would be in one building, some were in other

24 buildings. So I assume that this is how they would try to agree where

25 they would meet. There was no other way.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Did you say that you take it that they communicated

2 by telephone in order to make the arrangements for meeting; is that

3 correct?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know that they used the telephone or do you

6 assume that they used the telephone?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that they used a telephone

8 because they were dispersed throughout the town because there was --

9 there weren't any barracks where they could meet.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, for your assistance

11 because it really seems to have fallen away specific part of the

12 testimony, and as you know, the Chamber is always -- is always happy to

13 hear about these things that might create confusion.

14 Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the witness?

15 MR. STAMP: Just a couple of questions, and it will be very brief.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, very brief. Please proceed.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

18 Q. Do you know where the Viktor Burban barracks were located?

19 A. Also behind my building, to the east. Some three kilometres away

20 from my building, 3.000 metres way.

21 Q. You said that soldiers stayed in private houses sometimes.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You did not?

24 A. They were no soldiers, properly speaking. Most of them were

25 wearing civilian clothes. They were not a real army.

1 Q. Yes.

2 What I want to find out, if the building that you lived in had any

3 groups of soldiers residing there.

4 A. There were no groups of soldiers anywhere. There could have been

5 a soldier or two living at one particular house number. The building had

6 several entrances, and they met as best as they could. They tried to call

7 each other by telephone and to arrange where they would meet, and so on

8 and so forth, but I wasn't much interested in that because I was a member

9 of the civilian protection.

10 Q. Do you know of any soldiers being at the barracks of any

11 building -- of there being any barracks for soldiers in the area that you

12 lived in?

13 A. No. There was no barracks at all.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. They lived in their private flats.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. STAMP: That is all, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

19 Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions to you, Mr. Aganovic.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Aganovic, you stated that at

22 the beginning there was no army, properly speaking, so there must have

23 been groups which organised themselves as best as they could in order to

24 mount a defence. What date did you have in mind when you said that this

25 change -- when do you think that the army was established? When were the

1 barracks, the headquarters, and everything else necessary for an army,

2 established? Was it in 1992? 1993? 1994?

3 A. Beginning of 1994, end of 1993, beginning of 1994. It was during

4 that period of time that the barracks were being taken over from the JNA.

5 There was no Serb army at the time, but only the JNA which was withdrawing

6 at the time pursuant to an agreement. So the Bosnian defenders could take

7 up quarters in their barracks. So they were no longer located in various

8 flats around the town, but in the barracks. And as far as I know, there

9 were three such barracks that had been handed over to this Bosnian army.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you are talking about 1994,

11 the time when this accident occurred?

12 A. Well, it had already happened, even before that this transfer of

13 the army. I don't know exactly when it happened. I know that the former

14 Yugoslav army, the JNA, left the barracks at one point in time and then

15 the barracks were taken up by this other army. There was no conflict. It

16 was all done with an accordance with an agreement, that is that the

17 barracks should be liberated, but I don't know exactly when.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] An agreement between whom?

19 A. Between the Yugoslav army and the command of our army, I mean, the

20 one that was in Sarajevo, including the Presidency.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And this had taken place before

22 January 1994?

23 A. Yes, yes, before.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Aganovic, since I have no questions to you, this

1 concludes your testimony in this Court. You will understand that it is

2 important for this Chamber to hear the answer of witnesses to questions

3 both of the Prosecution and the Defence and, of course, also the questions

4 of the Bench. I would like to thank you very much for having come to The

5 Hague. We all know it is a far distance, and I thank you for giving

6 answers to all these questions. I hope that you have a safe journey home

7 again. Thank you very much for coming.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until five minutes past 11.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

11 --- Upon resuming at 11.12 a.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Before the Prosecution calls its next witness, may

13 I just ask, Mr. Ierace - this morning my computer was not connected -

14 could you please clarify exactly what you meant by whether the Prosecution

15 in relation to the application for a certificate for an interlocutory

16 appeal, whether that was necessary or not. Was that in whatever way

17 related to the corrigendum you might expect or was it just in

18 general?

19 MR. IERACE: Separate from the corrigendum, Mr. President. The

20 Defence has sought a certificate pursuant to Rule 73(C). The Rule does

21 not mention whether the Prosecution has the opportunity to assist the

22 Trial Chamber by making a response to the application for a certificate.

23 JUDGE ORIE: But it is the Trial Chamber who does so?

24 MR. IERACE: Yes, it is.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me have a look. It is an interlocutory appeal

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1 and that is -- let me just have a look.

2 MR. IERACE: It is a preliminary step.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It is 73(D), says: "Decisions on all other motions

4 or the Trial Chamber may certify that -- " You are referring to 73(C).

5 Yes, I do agree with you. It is a decision involving evidence and

6 procedure. It is not a decision on a motion. It is a request, not a

7 motion. If you would have called it a motion, then even we would have to

8 discuss whether it was under 73(C) or (D). But I do understand what you

9 mean.

10 Well, I mean, filing, in my view, is not necessary, but if you

11 could give -- I mean, if there is any specific response you would like to

12 make. If you say, "We agree it should be the Trial Chamber that deals

13 with the question of what are the acts and the conducts of the accused,"

14 then I don't think it is necessary that you could express yourself orally

15 and we would know at least what the position of the Prosecution is.

16 If, on the other hand, the Prosecution would go in a lot of detail

17 on the matter itself already and say, well, this is now of some importance

18 for the case law of the Tribunal or whatever, if we have the whole story,

19 we would rather read it. If you say, "Well, our position is quite clear.

20 We do agree," or "We not agree," then it could be done early as well. It

21 makes it possible for us to give a quicker response to the request.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps tomorrow morning, if that is

23 convenient, I could indicate very briefly what our position is in order to

24 save time, if that would assist you, rather than do a lengthy written

25 response.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the issue is such, it will either be dealt with

2 by the Appeal Chamber or not.

3 MR. IERACE: But in relation to the issuing of the certificate.

4 JUDGE ORIE: It is just preliminary matter. Of course, it is in

5 relation with the problem raised by the Defence, the issue raised by the

6 Defence in its application for certificate. I leave it up to you. If we

7 get a long story -- one of the problems, of course, is the Chamber will

8 not be sitting and some members of the -- some Judges of this Chamber will

9 not be present during next week. So if we could deal with it on short

10 notice, that would be preferable.

11 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, just to be clear on that, would

12 it be acceptable if we indicated tomorrow morning early in relation to the

13 issuance of the certificate? If you think there is no need for

14 that --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think the Chamber would like to know the position

16 of the Prosecution, yes.

17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you. Might I be excused

18 again, Mr. President?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

22 think that you noted that the Defence was extremely concise in the paper

23 that it presented to you. We did not address the details in order to know

24 whether our Rule 92 bis was applicable or not. So we place the debate on

25 this terrain, and it is true that we still have to respond. Whether -- if

1 we are talking about whether the certificate has to be given or not, then

2 I think at this point the Defence will not have to make any response.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course we cannot give any other decision,

4 but as far as I understand, the Defence wants the issue of what is act

5 and conduct of the accused, and 92 bis (A) is to be decided by the Appeals

6 Chamber. I think that is the main issue, as far as I see it.

7 Yes, okay. That's clear.

8 Then, Mr. Ierace, you are excused. I think we had still one or

9 -- did you receive already the newly translated copy of Exhibit -- Madam

10 Registrar, could you please assist. Did you give it already to me? No.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: As we discussed last Monday Exhibit 1675, with its

13 new translation, which makes it .2, was provided to the Defence. Is there

14 any -- and since the Exhibit itself, 1675, was not tendered yet, we

15 finally concluded that the Prosecution was tendering 1675 and 1675.2. Is

16 there any additional observation to be made, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the record, I can see

18 "167," "165," "1675" -- no, it is okay now. The transcript has just

19 changed.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as soon as the right number appears, you better

21 say that the last numbers are the correct ones, because if you repeat the

22 numbers, there is always the risk that they will be distorted again.

23 Is there any other observation to be made in respect of this

24 translation? You have seen it by now.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know whether we have

1 received it -- yes, yes, we have undoubtedly received it. No, no other

2 remarks.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then 1675 and 1675.2 are admitted into evidence.

4 Mr. Stamp, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness,

5 which I do understand is Eldar Hafizovic?

6 MR. STAMP: We are, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into

8 the courtroom.

9 [The witness entered the court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand? May I

11 ask you to speak your answers loud so that the interpreters can also hear

12 you. Mr. Hafizovic, I presume, before giving testimony in this court, the

13 Rules require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And the text of

15 that declaration will be handed out to you now by the usher, and may I

16 invite you to make that solemn declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Hafizovic.

20 WITNESS: ELDAR HAFIZOVIC

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE ORIE: The order in this Court is you will first be

23 examined by the party who called you, that is the Prosecution, and then

24 you will be examined by the Defence, and if the Judges have any questions

25 to you, they will put them to you as well.

1 Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

2 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President

3 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

4 Q. Can you start by telling us your full name?

5 A. Eldar Hafizovic.

6 Q. And do you work, sir?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. What type of work do you do?

9 A. I am employed at the Videx audio company, and I am in charge of

10 adjusting the hearing devices that are used by the people with hearing

11 problems.

12 Q. Do you live in Sarajevo?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And how long have you lived there?

15 A. Since my birth.

16 Q. Can you recall the conflict in Sarajevo between 1992 and 1995?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When that conflict started, where were you living in Sarajevo?

19 A. I was living at Dobrinja.

20 Q. And why did you begin to live at Dobrinja? How did you come to

21 start living at Dobrinja?

22 A. My parents are divorced. I was living with my mother at Nerkiza

23 Smajlovica number 7 in the Alipasino neighbourhood. That was my address.

24 So I went to visit my father, who lived at Dobrinja, and that is where the

25 war found me. Dobrinja was cut off from the rest of the city and I was no

1 longer able to go back to the town of Sarajevo, and that is how I remained

2 in Dobrinja.

3 Q. About when was it that you started to live in Dobrinja?

4 A. Ever since the beginning of the war. I left for Dobrinja on the

5 1st of May, that was the Bajram, our religious holiday, and I stayed on.

6 Q. This would be the 1st of May, 1992, I take it?

7 A. No. Actually, I am not sure about the date. Maybe it is not the

8 1st May precisely. But, anyway, it was a holiday, and I went to see my

9 father for the holiday and I stayed in Dobrinja.

10 Q. Was it in 1992, though?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, did you go there to see your father alone or did you go with

13 any other relative?

14 A. I went to visit him with my brother who is younger than me.

15 Q. And did you remain in Dobrinja for the duration of the war?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you recall -- well, before we get to that. Did you live at

18 one place in Dobrinja or at more than one place while you were there?

19 A. I lived at several places.

20 Q. And why did you move from place to place?

21 A. I was wounded several times. My apartment, that is where I was

22 living at the time, was hit on several occasions and quite a few

23 apartments were damaged and that is the reason why I had to move to

24 another flat.

25 Q. May I take you to the 4th of February, 1994 and speak about that

1 day. Where were you living on that day?

2 A. I was living at number 5 in Oslobodilaca Sarajeva in Dobrinja 1

3 neighbourhood.

4 Q. Oslobodilaca Sarajeva is the name of the street and the building

5 number is number 5; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, the house number.

7 Q. What type of house is it? Could you just briefly describe it to

8 us?

9 A. It is a residential building consisting of several entrances,

10 several house numbers, and I lived at number 5.

11 Q. Now, it is a one-storey building or does it have many different

12 storeys?

13 A. It has several storeys.

14 Q. Which storey did you live on?

15 A. I lived on the third floor.

16 Q. Now, the street Oslobodilaca Sarajeva was at the front of the

17 building; is that so?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And could you tell us what is to the back of the building?

20 A. There is a playground behind the building, on the back side of the

21 building.

22 Q. Now, what is the surface of this playground at the back of the

23 building made of?

24 A. I don't know exactly, but 15 to 20 metres at the most, maybe --

25 maybe 50 metres. The length may have been about 50 metres and the width

1 more or less the same, that is the entire area where the park is.

2 Q. And the playground in that park, does it have an asphalt surface?

3 A. Part of it, yes.

4 Q. Where was your brother, your younger brother, living on the 4th of

5 February, 1994?

6 A. At the same address with me, with my grandmother and with my

7 grandfather.

8 Q. And how old were you then, that is, on the 4th of February, 1994?

9 A. About 17.

10 Q. Well, could you tell us your date of birth, please.

11 A. The 7th of November, 1977.

12 Q. Now that morning, where were you? And we are speaking now for the

13 time being of the 4th of February.

14 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

15 Q. Where were you on the morning of the 4th of February, 1994?

16 A. I was in my flat.

17 Q. And while you were there, did something happen that morning or

18 that day?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you tell us slowly what happened.

21 A. I was sitting in a room, and at a certain point in time, I heard

22 an explosion. I could tell that it was near; the explosion was very loud.

23 I knew that my brother was outside and I was worried about him.

24 Q. Do you know where that explosion happened?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Where was it?

2 A. It was on the front side of the building, so opposite my

3 building. It hit another building.

4 Q. It hit another building opposite your building. Can I understand

5 that to mean across the road, Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street, from your

6 building?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

9 this question was a leading question because the location was pointed out

10 directly, and I object to that.

11 MR. STAMP: The witness had said it hit a building opposite his

12 building. I was just clarifying what exactly he meant by that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the objection is denied.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

15 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. You said you were worried about your brother. Was your brother

17 in your apartment at the time when you heard this explosion?

18 A. He wasn't. I was worried about him because I thought that he was

19 outside.

20 Q. So did you do anything?

21 A. Well, I had a look through the window and, down below, I could see

22 some things. First of all, there was a loud noise. I looked out of the

23 window. I saw people who were wounded and I couldn't see my brother. I

24 was worried about him.

25 Q. Where were these people who were wounded?

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1 A. In the street. Some were screaming, yelling for help. They were

2 wounded. They were panicking, quite simply panicking.

3 Q. Which street was this?

4 A. Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street.

5 Q. Now, was there any particular activity going on in that street

6 and in that area of that street that day?

7 A. I don't understand the question very well.

8 Q. Do you know why the people were gathered in that area where you

9 saw these injured people?

10 A. I don't know. Well, it was well known, everyone knew this because

11 humanitarian was distributed there. We didn't have any food at the time

12 and the only source of food was the humanitarian aid that the

13 international community distributed to us.

14 Q. And where was the humanitarian aid distributed?

15 A. In our street. They were supposed to distribute it in the park in

16 our street.

17 Q. Now, you said, "It was well known." Can you tell us a little more

18 about that? Well known in the community that humanitarian aid was

19 distributed there, is that what you mean?

20 A. Yes, this was well known, humanitarian aid would arrive and it had

21 to be distributed. We didn't all receive it directly from representatives

22 of the international community. It was distributed to certain communities

23 and then these communities would decide who should obtain this aid, to

24 whom it should be distributed.

25 Q. And is that what the people who were outside your apartment were

1 gathered for?

2 A. That was behind my building. Yes, the humanitarian aid was

3 distributed behind my building and that is where they gathered for it.

4 Q. You looked out your window. I think it is to the front of your

5 building; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you saw injured people. Did you see your brother there?

8 A. I saw wounded people, but I didn't see my brother.

9 Q. Did you do anything after that?

10 A. Well, as I didn't see him, I went to the other side of the

11 building because my flat has a view of both sides. So I went there to see

12 whether everything was all right with him.

13 Q. Now, the other side of the building is at the back of your

14 building?

15 A. Yes, it is. It is the other side of the building, so the side

16 that gives on the playground.

17 Q. Well, did you see him at that side where the playground is?

18 A. No, I didn't.

19 Q. What happened, if anything, while you were there looking?

20 A. Well, I went out to the balcony and the second shell fell on the

21 playground then. And I was wounded by this shell, too.

22 Q. Where were you wounded?

23 A. I was wounded in the right arm, above the elbow.

24 Q. Were there people in the vicinity of this playground and, if so,

25 did anything happen to them?

1 A. Yes, there were people there and something did happen to them.

2 Q. Could you tell us about that, please.

3 A. The shell fell. I went out to the balcony and tried to see my

4 brother. I saw quite a few people. The shell fell then. I was wounded

5 in the right arm. There were quite a lot of people who were lying down.

6 They were -- they had been wounded. They were dead. Quite a lot of

7 humanitarian aid had been scattered around. There were canisters there.

8 Q. Did you do anything after that?

9 A. Yes. I left the building. I left my flat. I went to see where

10 my brother was and I went to fetch help.

11 Q. Can you tell us where exactly you went to?

12 A. At the entrance I met my brother, I saw my brother. He was all

13 right. He had been with a friend of his in his flat so nothing had

14 happened to him. I then went to the clinic in order to be given first

15 aid. This clinic is near my building so it is a couple of entrances

16 lower down.

17 Q. When you -- as you came out of your building where you saw your

18 brother, did you hear anything?

19 A. I did, the people still panicking and screaming. Some were taken

20 away to hospital. Immediately, there were several cars which were at the

21 scene. And it is then that the third shell fell. I then went to the

22 clinic.

23 Q. When you say, "the third shell fell," can you be a little bit more

24 descriptive. What did you hear or see, if anything?

25 A. A loud explosion could be heard. These were explosions. From the

1 building, I could hear that it was very near, although I didn't see where

2 it fell exactly. But I heard a loud explosion and that's why I knew

3 that it was nearby.

4 Q. Could you say approximately which direction it came from, was it

5 behind or to the side of the building that you lived in, or to the back?

6 A. It didn't fall on the street. It fell on the playground at the

7 same spot -- well, not the same spot, but the same playground where I was

8 wounded.

9 Q. And I take it by that that this third explosion fell behind the

10 building that you lived in?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Before you left, did you notice any damage to any building or area

13 in front of your building?

14 A. Well, yes, I did.

15 Q. Could you describe what you saw.

16 A. On the ground floor of the building, across the road from the one

17 in which I lived, there was a large hole there. A lot of damage had been

18 caused, and I could see that this is where the first shell had fallen when

19 I was in the flat.

20 Q. In the vicinity of this damaged area of the building, do you know

21 what that area of the building was being used for?

22 A. Yes. It was not really a mosque. I didn't go into those

23 buildings, but I heard that they were used for the children. This is

24 where children would go for religious education and in order to get them

25 off the streets a bit because there was shelling all the time. There was

1 sniper shots all the time. So it was more secure and it was for the sake

2 of their education, too, because at the time the schools were not open.

3 Q. Can you say whether or not any of the children were in the mosque

4 that day -- I beg your pardon, were in that building that was used to

5 accommodate them that day?

6 A. I didn't go in there but I assume that there were some children

7 there.

8 Q. You said you went -- you left the scene and went somewhere. Where

9 did you go to?

10 A. I went to the clinic, where I was given first aid. And they then

11 sent me to the hospital in Dobrinja for further treatment.

12 Q. And when you were at the hospital in Dobrinja, did you see anybody

13 who was injured in this incident?

14 A. Yes. There were quite a few people there.

15 Q. Now, that day, and I am speaking just about that day, what -- did

16 any shell or any shells fall in the area where you lived before those

17 three shells fell?

18 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

19 Q. Yes, I will.

20 Were these shells, the three shells which you have just spoken

21 about, were the first shells to fall in your area on that day or was there

22 previous shelling before that on that day?

23 A. Shelling went on all the time, not just on that day, but all the

24 time. But on that day, I don't think that there was any shelling during

25 that period and at that location. There was no shelling at that location.

1 No shells fell there.

2 Q. Can I take it that you mean that no shells fell that day before

3 the three which you describe?

4 A. Yes, I don't think that this happened on that day at the same

5 location.

6 Q. Can you recall what the weather was like at the time when this

7 occurred?

8 A. Not very well, but I know that it wasn't raining.

9 Q. And do you know of any type of military activity that was being

10 conducted on the street in front of your apartment that day?

11 A. No.

12 Q. By no means -- well, was any military activity being conducted on

13 the street in front of your apartment?

14 A. I haven't understood the question very well.

15 Q. I asked you --

16 A. If you mean that -- if you want to know whether there was anyone

17 fighting, no, there was nothing like that on that day.

18 Q. Were there soldiers there?

19 A. I didn't notice any.

20 Q. How about the playground behind your apartment, was there any

21 military activity being conducted there that day or any soldiers there

22 that day when the shelling occurred?

23 A. No.

24 Q. In the district that you live at, in your neighbourhood, do you

25 know of any military facility in the area?

1 A. I knew that there was a small office that belonged to the army,

2 but --

3 Q. Where was this small office?

4 A. Well, in the building across the road from the one in which I

5 live.

6 Q. Tell us how small, or tell us what do you mean by "small office"?

7 About how many military personnel would you see there from time to time?

8 A. It was a small room. Before the war, it was something like a

9 kiosk, something like that. And there were a few soldiers there

10 occasionally. I don't know. I didn't really notice them and I wasn't

11 interested in them at all.

12 MR. STAMP: If I may have a moment, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please, take your time, Mr. Stamp.

14 MR. STAMP:

15 Q. You said you were treated at the hospital in Dobrinja. If you saw

16 a copy of your medical record, would you be able to identify it?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, with your leave, may I have tendered to

19 the witness Exhibit P3367?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist Mr. Stamp.

21 MR. STAMP:

22 Q. Do you see your name on that document?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And the date, do you see the date?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What is the date you see there?

2 A. The 4th of February, 1994.

3 Q. To the top right of the document, do you see something written in

4 hand that is not printed? Do you?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Can you make it out?

7 A. "Massacre in Dobrinja."

8 MR. STAMP: If it please you, Mr. President I just ask the

9 witness to read that into evidence because I think that is one part of

10 the document which does not appear on the translation.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We get used to these kind of situations,

12 Mr. Stamp.

13 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. And is that a copy of your medical record?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. STAMP: It could be taken back from him.

18 Q. Were you admitted to the hospital or were you discharged that day?

19 A. I was discharged on that day.

20 Q. Now, you told us earlier in your testimony that you had lived in

21 apartments which had been shelled and that you had been injured before by

22 shelling. Can you recall the first time you were injured by shelling?

23 A. Yes, I can; on the 24th of October, 1992.

24 Q. Where were you then?

25 A. I was in Dobrinja III at the time, in Trg Junaka Socijalistickog

1 number 5. That is where I was living at the time.

2 Q. At what time of the day or night were you injured?

3 A. In the daytime.

4 Q. Can you tell us what happened when you were injured?

5 A. On that day I was on the balcony with my grandmother who was

6 preparing breakfast. We didn't have any electricity. So it wasn't

7 possible to cook, really, to cook in the house. So we improvised a grill

8 which was on the balcony and we used wood for it, and this is where we

9 would cook. My grandmother was preparing some food and I was standing by

10 her. And we were there for a while and a shell then fell, a tank shell

11 fell a metre or a metre and-a-half away from me, and it wounded me.

12 Q. Well, did the shell explode?

13 A. Yes, it did.

14 Q. And where were you wounded on this occasion, what part of your

15 body was wounded?

16 A. It was my finger on my right hand and my right knee. Luckily,

17 this was an armour-piercing tank shell so there wasn't too much shrapnel,

18 and a fridge which was by my side also helped me. It obstructed some of

19 the shrapnel. The remainder of the shell, the one that exploded, entered,

20 it penetrated the building and destroyed the flat.

21 Q. Did anything happen to your grandmother at that time?

22 A. No. Fortunately, nothing happened to her. She was crouching down

23 behind a concrete wall. She was preparing some food, she was occupied

24 with the grill, so the concrete protected her.

25 Q. Where exactly, or may I put it this way, on which floor of the

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1 apartment were you at the time of this incident?

2 A. On the fifth floor.

3 Q. And does that balcony face any particular area or community?

4 A. Yes, it does. It faces Gavrica Brdo.

5 Q. Can you say which party to the conflict controlled this area,

6 Gavrica Brdo, at the time of your injury? That is, was it under the

7 control of the army of Republika Srpska or under the control of the army

8 of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. The area was under the control of Republika Srpska. It was their

10 land.

11 Q. From your balcony or from the balcony that you were at with your

12 grandmother, was there any obstruction between there and -- I am going to

13 get the pronunciation wrong, but Gavrica Brdo?

14 A. No, not the area towards Gavrica Brdo. That is, there were some

15 buildings located around the square. However, when looking from my

16 balcony, the view of Gavrica Brdo was unobstructed.

17 Q. And do you know of any tanks being at Gavrica Brdo?

18 A. Yes, I know. I know that there were tanks for quite a while

19 during the war and they were targeting Dobrinja most, but other parts of

20 the town as well. They were visible with the naked eye.

21 Q. Can you say where that shell which injured you in October 1992 was

22 fired from?

23 A. Yes, I can. I can say that it was fired from Gavrica Brdo. That

24 was the only possible direction it could have come from.

25 Q. Were you injured another time by a shelling before the 4th of

1 February, 1994?

2 A. Yes, I was.

3 Q. And can you remember the date of that incident?

4 A. The 13th of January, 1993.

5 Q. Thank you. Where were you when you were injured at that time?

6 A. I happened to be in an apartment with my girlfriend. We were just

7 sitting down in the apartment where some young people used to gather

8 because it was impossible to be outside in the street. So we had to stick

9 to the inside, to the apartments, because we were, to a certain extent,

10 sheltered there from shells.

11 Q. Where was this apartment?

12 A. In Dobrinja I.

13 Q. Do you remember the address?

14 A. I think the name of the street was Jovan Veselinova, but it has

15 been renamed into Zlatnih Ljiljana Square, I think.

16 Q. Very well.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could the witness please

19 repeat what he has just said? I think that the interpreters are not

20 quite sure.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as a general rule, if you would

22 like the witness to do something, would you either address me or Mr.

23 Stamp, so that he can -- but --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I was

25 addressing you.

1 JUDGE ORIE: I then perhaps not properly understand. You said,

2 "Could the witness please repeat what he has just said." The line is

3 such that it could be addressed both to the witness and to myself.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] I am so sorry.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please, Mr. Hafizovic, could you please

6 repeat the answer to the question whether you remember the address.

7 That was about that part, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, it was the last name

9 that the witness said. I don't think that everybody got it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The beginning of your answer was, "I think the name

11 of the street was Jovan Veselinova but it has been renamed into..." Could

12 you please repeat the new name of the street?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the new name of the

14 street is Zlatnih Ljiljana Square or Trg Zlatnih Ljiljana. I believe that

15 that is the new name of the street.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

17 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. This building that you were at when you were injured in January

19 1993, how do you enter that building?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How would you enter the building and leave the building, if you

22 wanted to?

23 A. I don't think the question has been properly interpreted, or I may

24 have misunderstood it. Would you be so kind and repeat it, please.

25 Q. Did you enter the building from the front or from the back of the

1 building? And that is the building that you were injured in on the 13th

2 of January, 1993.

3 A. The entrance was from the back, from some openings that had been

4 made, because it was not possible to enter the apartment from the front,

5 from the facade, because of the constant shooting. So we used this back

6 entrance.

7 Q. And when you were injured this time, on what storey of the

8 building were you at with your girlfriend and the other young people?

9 A. I was on the ground floor. So the apartment was located on the

10 ground floor of the building.

11 Q. What time of the day or night was it, can you recall, that you

12 were injured?

13 A. It was already dark, so it must have been sometime between 8.00

14 and 9.00, thereabouts.

15 Q. Did you have any --

16 A. 8.00 and 10.00. Sorry.

17 Q. Did you have any kind of lighting in the apartment?

18 A. Here the transcript reads between 8.00 and 10.00. That is, I am

19 not sure. I think that it was between 8.00 and 10.00 in the evening.

20 Q. That is fine. We understand it is an estimate of the time.

21 So, tell us, did you have any type of lighting inside the

22 apartment at the time?

23 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, the witness said, this last

24 sentence, "between 8.00 and 9.00."

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no electricity during

1 that period of time. Actually, for quite some time, we didn't have any

2 electricity so we had to find ways to light up the room, and we used a gas

3 lamp. We improvised some kind of gas light because there was gas pipeline

4 in the building. And this is what we used for lighting.

5 MR. STAMP:

6 Q. Now, tell us what happened at the time you were injured.

7 A. We were sitting in this apartment, me and my girlfriend, and

8 talking. At one point we heard a very loud explosion. She fell down on

9 the floor and I lay down on top of her. The lights were gone as a result

10 of the explosion, and after a while, we got up and I inquired whether

11 anyone was injured in the dark. Everybody said that they were not. But I

12 felt something warm on me and I realised that I was bleeding. I

13 touched my head and realised that I was covered in blood. I didn't

14 want to cause any panic. I didn't want to frighten my friends, so I ran

15 out into the street. And since the lines were very close, I could hear

16 them. Of course, at the same time, I was crying out for help but I also

17 heard them talk, using some abusive language. And a man passed by and he

18 took me to the hospital.

19 Q. You said you -- the place was not too far from the confrontation

20 line and you heard "them" talk. Who did you hear?

21 A. Soldiers of Republika Srpska, if I am allowed to use this

22 language.

23 Q. What was said?

24 A. They were laughing and they were saying something to the

25 effect, "Hey, you Balijas, how many of you did we kill this time?" And

1 something else but I don't remember anything else. I was frightened.

2 After all, I had this wound on my head and I was scared. I didn't know

3 what was going to happen to me.

4 Q. Was this said in a normal tone of voice or was it shouted across

5 the line?

6 A. They were shouting. They were shouting, and that was not the

7 first time. Whenever they did something of the sort and, see, the

8 neighbourhood of Dobrinja is so structured that sometimes the separation

9 line passed through a building or between two buildings. They were very

10 close and they were trying to frighten us, to intimidate us and to

11 humiliate us.

12 Q. You were taken to a hospital on this occasion when you suffered

13 that injury to your head. Were you admitted on that occasion or were you

14 discharged?

15 A. I was discharged because there were many wounded people in this

16 hospital. And the conditions were not much better than elsewhere. They

17 didn't have electricity either. So I was released home for treatment at

18 home. They treated my wound, put some stitches on it, and after that,

19 they discharged me. They cleared up the wound and removed everything that

20 was not part of my head.

21 Q. You said it was very dangerous to go in front of that building

22 because of the constant shooting. Can you recall any incident in which

23 anybody had been shot in that vicinity?

24 A. Snipers were active in those streets. It was not safe to walk

25 down the main street and we used to run from one building to another.

1 Quite a few people were wounded during the conflict. There were many such

2 cases. I once assisted a wounded person in one of these incidents, if

3 that is what you have in mind.

4 Q. Indeed, it is. The time when you assisted this wounded person,

5 can you recall when this was?

6 A. I cannot recall the exact date, however, after my first wounding;

7 I was still recovering from wounds. I mean I was still not able to walk

8 normally. I was still in pain and my arm hurt. So it was during that

9 period of time.

10 Q. Your first wounding --

11 A. On the 24th of October 1992.

12 Q. And this event in which you assisted this lady could have

13 occurred approximately how long after this first wounding?

14 A. Again, I am not sure about the exact date, but I know that I was

15 still recovering from the wound, so I can conclude that it occurred

16 sometime after the first time I was wounded. Maybe a month after that,

17 but I am not sure.

18 Q. Is it correct that it occurred before the second time you were

19 wounded?

20 A. Yes, I am sure about that. I am sure that it was before I was

21 wounded for the second time.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

24 think that the witness has just said that it was during his first

25 wounding, that is, one month after the first wounding, and I don't think

1 that the second wounding was -- took place one month after, after the

2 first one.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may have expressed myself --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in a not very clear manner. I am

6 sorry.

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... try to clarify

8 the issue and see whether there is an issue and see whether it can be

9 clarified.

10 MR. STAMP:

11 Q. You said, Witness, that it was approximately a month after your

12 first injury that you assisted this person. The second injury was on the

13 13th of January, 1993. So is it correct to say that the occasion when you

14 assisted this person was between the time when you suffered the first

15 injury and the time when you suffered the second injury?

16 A. Yes, this is correct, but I am not sure about the -- about the

17 day, as I indicated, if you understand. If necessary, I can explain

18 further.

19 Q. We don't expect you to be precise about every date. Thank you.

20 I am going to enquire briefly into the circumstances in which

21 you came to assist this girl. Tell us, this person, well, was it a girl,

22 a boy, a man or a woman that you assisted?

23 A. It was a girl whom I didn't know.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is correct now, but at

1 the beginning, Mr. Stamp -- Mr. Stamp has actually corrected his answer

2 so I withdraw my remark.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

4 MR. STAMP:

5 Q. Could you tell us what happened on that occasion?

6 A. So it was a young woman, a girl. I don't think she was over 15.

7 She was unknown to me. And she was crossing -- she was running across

8 the Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street. She was actually running across the

9 green part of the street, the lawn. And the area was somewhat lower than

10 the rest of the street, but it was frequently targeted by a sniper. I

11 don't know what happened. She must have bent or something and at that

12 time she was hit by a sniper.

13 But she was obviously still alive, although the sniper went on

14 shooting, but nobody dared approach her.

15 Q. The sniper was shooting from where, do you know?

16 A. Yes. From the direction of Dobrinja I, which was under the

17 control of Republika Srpska. This is the area from where fire was being

18 opened for a long period of time during the war.

19 Q. When she was hit, what happened? Did she fall or did she continue

20 running?

21 A. No, she fell down. She fell down and the sniper continued

22 shooting. But, you know, whenever a person got wounded, others always

23 tried to come to that person to help, but this was not possible because

24 the shooting went on. And then I --

25 Q. Can you describe that a little bit further. You said the shooting

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1 went on. Where was it being fired at, can you say?

2 A. The bullets were coming from the direction of Dobrinja I, that is,

3 Republika Srpska, from where the view to the buildings in Oslobodilaca

4 Sarajeva Street was unobstructed and that is where she was hit. There

5 were several tracer bullets striking around her so we were able to see the

6 direction from which they were coming.

7 Q. I see. So the shots were being fired by this sniper around her

8 where she lay?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. For how long did this continue?

11 A. Again, I couldn't tell you exactly how long it went on but I am

12 sure it was at least for a couple of minutes. But nobody, as I said,

13 dared approach her. The bullets were hitting the area around her and

14 there was some dust coming from the ground where the bullets were

15 impacting. So we realised that the shooting was going on, and nobody

16 dared come to that girl and I -- since I had already been wounded, I

17 remembered how I felt myself in the same situation. So after a brief

18 period of time, I ran up to her and, of course, I was not able to pull her

19 out alone but there was a man in the vicinity who finally also came to her

20 and then the two of us pulled her out from this location. And as far as I

21 know, she survived.

22 Q. Did you ever see this young -- this girl again?

23 A. No, I did not. I moved frequently in those days. But I heard

24 that she was trying to find me, to thank me. I don't know. But I was not

25 able to find her, nor was she.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am checking, Mr. President.

3 And I am addressing you. I think that there has been a mistake in the

4 record. I am reading the English transcript which says, "There was a man

5 in the vicinity," and I thought I heard the witness say that there was a

6 Bosnian soldier in the vicinity.

7 MR. STAMP: I did not hear what my friend has commented, but I

8 think I know where that came from

9 JUDGE ORIE: If you could please clarify that, Mr. Stamp.

10 MR. STAMP:

11 Q. Can you say whether or not the person who helped you to pull this

12 girl away was a Bosnian soldier?

13 A. I can say that it was a Bosnian soldier because I don't think that

14 I would have been helped by a soldier from Republika Srpska there.

15 MR. STAMP: If I may just clarify, I don't think that he said

16 earlier that a soldier assisted him, I think he said "a man." I think my

17 friend has been referring to the statement.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I wondered, as a matter of fact, why you were able to

19 detect a possible source, and I would at least like to prevent, that would

20 be to prevent that, on the basis of the witness statement, elements are

21 introduced in the examination-in-chief by the Defence, just as I would not

22 think it to be acceptable that the Prosecution would introduce elements in

23 the examination-in-chief by the Defence later on, on the basis of written

24 statements.

25 So, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please tell me exactly where you

1 thought you heard a Bosnian soldier to be pronounced, so that we can

2 check in the original...

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, are you asking

4 me when I heard this or where in the transcript it can be found?

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... at what time --

6 yes.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, to

8 interrupt. Is it possible for me to add something because I see that you

9 are having some problems. May I be allowed to provide the explanation?

10 Mr. President, I am trying to locate the exact spot and I will

11 tell you it is line 16, page 64, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Since my computer was not connected in the beginning,

13 I am a bit confused as far as pages are concerned. Could you please

14 indicate the time.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] The time I read is -- I have no

16 time, unfortunately.

17 JUDGE ORIE: On your laptop -- well, Judge Nieto-Navia has a

18 perfect --

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I am sorry. Page 64, line 14, it says, "So

20 after a brief period of time I run up to her and of course I was not able

21 to pull her out alone, but there was a man in the vicinity who finally

22 also came." It is 12.25.13.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your assistance.

24 Did you, during your testimony just a while ago, did you tell us

25 that it was a man in the vicinity or there was a Bosnian soldier in the

1 vicinity? When for the first time asked, because later on you, upon

2 another question by Mr. Stamp, you said it was a Bosnian soldier. But

3 when you first mentioned the presence of a person who helped you, did you

4 then say it was a man or did you say it was a Bosnian soldier?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a man who was dressed in a

6 uniform, a camouflage uniform. He may have been a soldier, or not. I

7 don't know that. I don't know how much you know about it, but uniforms

8 were sometimes donned by ordinary people, ordinary civilians, because

9 there weren't no clothes that could be bought normally. So I don't know.

10 But it was a man.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but my question was whether at first you

12 testified that it was a man or that you testified that it was a Bosnian

13 soldier. But at first, when you mentioned the presence of a person, did

14 you say there was a man or did you say there was a Bosnian soldier? Or

15 don't you remember? If you don't remember, it is no problem.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, if the interpreters can help, my

18 colleague is telling me that it is possible that the witness said a

19 Bosnian soldier. But since I didn't hear him clearly and could not ask

20 him to clarify, I interpreted it as "a man."

21 JUDGE ORIE: We have heard an explanation now from the

22 interpreter's booth. I thank you very much for assisting us. I do

23 understand that the English interpreters were not able to hear it

24 perfectly well and therefore they translated "a man," where other

25 colleagues have indicated that the witness would have said that it was a

1 Bosnian soldier. So it seems that the issue has been clarified.

2 Ms. Pilipovic.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That is

4 exactly what I wanted to say, that the witness said that it was a Bosnian

5 soldier. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I see that it must have been a problem of

7 translation, rather, and so there is -- as far as I can see, there is no

8 question about relying upon a written testimony during the examination,

9 but it is just that the interpretation caused Mr. Piletta-Zanin to ask for

10 a clarification because he heard "Bosnian soldier."

11 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

12 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, since we -- since it was interrupting

14 anyhow, I even look at the clock very well, it is already past 12.30. How

15 much time would you still need for your examination-in-chief, do you

16 think?

17 MR. STAMP: I would imagine probably 20 minutes to half an hour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So then we will now have a break.

19 Mr. Hafizovic, we have to take a pause now and then, so we will

20 have a break, that is for everyone, until five minutes to 1.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

22 --- Upon resuming at 1.00 p.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, please proceed.

24 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. You said this young girl was pulled by this man and yourself to

1 safety. Was that after the firing stopped?

2 A. They didn't shoot at us while we were trying to pull her out.

3 Whether he -- he didn't shoot while we were pulling her out.

4 Q. About how old was this young girl?

5 A. I don't know how old she was exactly, but she was young. I think

6 she was about 17 or so. I am not sure.

7 Q. How was she dressed?

8 A. She was wearing jeans and a T-shirt of some kind.

9 Q. To what part of her body was she injured?

10 A. She was wounded in the face. So she had -- she was wounded in

11 the head.

12 Q. What was the weather like at that time? And I am asking

13 particularly about the visibility at that time.

14 A. Visibility was good, I think. It was good. There was no rain.

15 You could see well.

16 Q. And what time of day was this, did you say?

17 A. I am not sure.

18 Q. Well, was it in the day or in the night when it was dark?

19 A. It was during the day, for sure.

20 Q. And as this young girl lay there injured, for about how long did

21 the sniper or snipers fire shots around her before they stopped?

22 A. For a certain period of time. I don't know for how long exactly.

23 I didn't have a look at my watch. But for a few minutes, I think. Long

24 enough to notice that they had fired several shots.

25 Q. In June 2001, that is June last year, were you interviewed by an

1 investigator of the -- of this Tribunal?

2 A. You are referring to the conversation with the gentleman who

3 questioned me, the gentleman with whom I spoke?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Yes, I spoke to someone.

6 Q. Did you mark a map for that person?

7 A. I marked a map, but it wasn't a map of the town. It was a map of

8 Dobrinja, I think.

9 Q. Thank you. And you signed the map that you marked is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your leave, may I

13 proffer to the witness the Exhibit P3232.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so, Mr. Stamp.

15 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

16 Q. Do you see your signature on that document?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. And that is a map of Dobrinja which you marked, is it?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 MR. STAMP: Could that map be placed on the ELMO, please.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I still have no ELMO on our screen under the video

22 evidence button, as far as I can see. Now I have nothing on my screen

23 any more. None of the buttons...

24 MR. STAMP: It is slowly resuming.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It says -- on the video evidence, it says "no signal"

1 so there must be something.

2 THE REGISTRAR: It can be viewed on the video channel now.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

5 MR. STAMP:

6 Q. On the map, you have video mark circled in certain places and put

7 numbers inside those circle?

8 A. I have marked certain locations and numbers in the circles. There

9 are numbers in the circle and I have marked these places with these

10 numbers.

11 Q. Can we start from the last number and go backwards. At number 5,

12 where you have marked "5" beside a dot, what does the dot indicate?

13 A. That is the place from which they opened sniper fire. It is by

14 that street. So there was a stronghold there and we all knew that they

15 would shoot from there. So it was in that direction.

16 Q. And can you say what the dot beside the circled number 4

17 indicates?

18 A. It indicates the place where this girl had been wounded, the girl

19 that we have already spoken about. So it was more or less at that site.

20 Q. And you have marked a spot number 3 or you have put a number 3

21 beside a dot on the map. What does this dot indicate?

22 A. This indicates the location of my flat and the place where I was

23 wounded.

24 Q. And you have marked on your map -- on this map, a number 2 beside

25 a dot. Could you say what that indicates?

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not sure

3 this time, but I think that just a minute ago the witness said that it

4 was the flat in which he was earlier on when he spoke about his flat, and

5 I think I heard the word "ranije," which means earlier on. So I don't

6 know if we could ask this question once more to clarify the situation.

7 Mr. President, I think that we should do this. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp, could you -- you heard that there

9 were some questions as to the interpretation of the answer. Could you

10 please try to clarify it from the witness.

11 MR. STAMP:

12 Q. Could you go back to the dot beside the number 3 which you marked.

13 What does that dot signify?

14 A. That indicates the place where I was wounded, and that is the

15 place where I lived, too. So I was wounded on the balcony on the third

16 floor on the 4th of February, 1992. That is the date when that happened

17 -- 1994, I apologise. That is when I was wounded in this massacre, when

18 this massacre took place.

19 Q. And could you tell us now what the dot beside the number 2

20 signifies?

21 A. That is the place where I was also wounded, where I was wounded in

22 my head. That was the second time I was wounded.

23 Q. In January of 1993?

24 A. The 13th, yes, that's right.

25 Q. And is this the building you said that you would have to enter

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1 from the back, from holes created in the back of the building?

2 A. Yes. You would enter from the back and the dot indicates the

3 place where I was wounded. So that flat was facing the street from which

4 it was impossible to enter. That is where there was sniper shooting and

5 it is also from the direction where the girl was wounded. So, yes, we

6 would enter the building from the rear.

7 Q. And there is a dot that you have marked here with a circled number

8 1 beside it. What does that dot signify?

9 A. Dot number 1 indicates the place where I was wounded the first

10 time. So on the 24th of October, 1992.

11 Q. Thank you. Have a look at the dot beside the circled number 3.

12 That dot is the area towards the back of the building in which you lived;

13 is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. The street to the front of that building would be Oslobodilaca

16 Sarajeva Street?

17 A. Yes, from the front side, and I lived in Oslobodilaca Sarajeva

18 number 5. That is -- that's the entrance, if I have understood you

19 correctly.

20 MR. STAMP: You may remove the document. With your leave,

21 Mr. President, Your Honours, I respectfully request that the witness be

22 shown a photograph marked P3678B. Actually, it is a Quicktime movie,

23 360-degree Quicktime movie. Thank you very much.

24 Q. Can you see anything on your screen?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, I see that there is no broadcast. We have

1 a nice picture of this courtroom without anyone in it.

2 Yes, it is on our screen now, Mr. Stamp.

3 MR. STAMP: We are going to look right around at the totality of

4 this photograph and then I will ask you a couple of questions. Can we

5 just go around slowly ending back to where we begin. To the right. Thank

6 you.

7 Q. Is this a fair reproduction of the area behind your apartment

8 building with the asphalted playground?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. In the background of the picture, or just immediately beyond the

11 asphalted playground, do you see a structure there going across that area

12 just beyond the asphalted playground?

13 A. Could you repeat the question, please. I don't think I have

14 understood it well.

15 Q. Just beyond the asphalted playground, going across the middle of

16 the screen, do you see a structure there? Can you say what it is?

17 A. Yes, I can see a building. I don't really understand. I don't

18 know what it is exactly.

19 Q. I will have the picture focused a little bit more.

20 MR. STAMP: Could you turn slightly to the right please.

21 Q. Now, there is a structure going right across the middle of the

22 screen from left to right. Can you identify that structure?

23 A. Yes, it is Dobrinja II.

24 Q. Do you see the asphalted surface in the foreground of this

25 picture?

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this question

3 has been asked three times now and I think that it is not necessary.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. I think that the --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think we will hear it for a

6 fourth time.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- witness did not specifically answer to the

8 question as far as I understand the question.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

10 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Do you see the asphalted playground in the foreground of the

12 picture?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And beyond that towards the middle of the picture and to the

15 left, do you see a motor car?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. And immediately above that motor car, do you see a structure that

18 goes from the left of the picture right across the middle to the right of

19 the picture?

20 A. The structure is a car park, in fact.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. STAMP: Would you turn the picture a little bit to the left,

23 please. Stop there.

24 Q. Can you identify this building that you see on the screen?

25 A. Yes, I can. It is the building I lived in.

1 Q. Can you locate the balcony that you were at when you were injured?

2 A. Yes, I can. But could you move this photograph a bit to the right

3 for me to be certain. It will be clearer. It will be more visible then.

4 Q. We will do so and can you tell us when to stop?

5 A. That is fine there. You don't have to go on.

6 Q. Do you see your apartment or the balcony that you were on, there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you describe where it is?

9 A. Well, I don't know whether you can see what I am pointing to. If

10 you can, I will point to it. Otherwise, I will explain it to you.

11 Q. Please explain it.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, is it technically possible that your case

13 manager moves the tiny little circle over the screen without changing the

14 picture so that the witness could guide you and say, "a bit more to the

15 left," "a bit more upwards"?

16 MR. STAMP: I think that is not only technically possible, it is

17 an excellent way of getting to what I am trying to accomplish.

18 Q. Do you see a moving cursor on the screen?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Could you just direct us whether to the left or to the right or

21 upwards or downwards to your apartment.

22 A. Could you move the cursor to the right. It is on the same floor,

23 but move it to the right. It is the next balcony. Could you put it down

24 just a bit. That is the flat in which I lived and that is the balcony

25 which I have spoken about.

1 JUDGE ORIE: But now I am afraid that you have to describe where

2 this is, Mr. Stamp, so the problem is now yours. But if I could assist

3 you, I can easily --

4 MR. STAMP: I am grateful for the assistance. I was going to make

5 an effort myself.

6 JUDGE ORIE: On the screen, there are five rows of balconies. The

7 one most at the right has one parabolic antenna second from below. Next

8 one has two parabolic antennas, one below, one, two storeys higher, and

9 then the next row which is hidden half, that means that only two balconies

10 are visible beyond the tree, it is the lower one of these two balconies.

11 MR. STAMP: I am very grateful, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I just wanted to assist you all by concluding by

13 tomorrow or Thursday.

14 MR. STAMP: And we are indeed making more progress than I

15 expected. Thank you very much, Mr. President.

16 Thank you. The photograph may be removed from the screen.

17 Finally, there is an exhibit, I think it is D64, which I would like to

18 recall and have just a small portion of that shown to the witness.

19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 MR. STAMP: I am sorry, could you rewind to the start of that

21 video, please.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a quick rewind button on this machine?

23 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, I am wondering, if my friends do not

24 object, if I can conclude provisionally the examination-in-chief now and

25 locate what is just two minutes, if that much, of video and perhaps just

1 have him identify a particular area and answer two questions. I don't

2 know if that would be objected to.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you mind, Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

4 if Mr. Stamp would just do this part of the examination-in-chief after he

5 has selected a very short portion of the video because otherwise it might

6 take quite some time to locate.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may

8 answer, we could perhaps leave two or three minutes to the Prosecution

9 team in order to find this part and then perhaps in five minutes' time,

10 they could continue with this series of question because I think that

11 would be a lot more reasonable.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that it is just one or two -- just a

13 couple of questions or -- ?

14 MR. STAMP: Just approximately three or four questions.

15 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you think it would take you to

16 locate the specific part of the --

17 MR. STAMP: It would probably take a couple of minutes but I

18 don't want to have the courtroom remaining idle.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I know, Mr. Stamp, but as you may have noticed,

20 discussing these issues takes approximately just as long as the time we

21 would have to wait for you. Perhaps if you could assist the technicians,

22 I would easily leave you to go out of the courtroom to detect it very

23 quickly with the technicians or do it on the screen.

24 MR. STAMP: Could we proceed with the video from the start?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. STAMP: I think I lost my signal, but I believe it is on the

3 video.

4 JUDGE ORIE: It is again -- yes.

5 MR. STAMP: Could you stop there, please, and go back to the

6 start.

7 Q. Is that video which you just saw a fair and accurate reproduction

8 of the scene behind your apartment, at a place behind your apartment on

9 the 4th of February, 1994?

10 A. Yes. This is what we were able to see just before the end of the

11 tape, that is the location where the third shell impacted.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, did you see on that tape someone coming from a

13 window of that building?

14 A. Would you be so kind and play the tape once again.

15 MR. STAMP: Could you rewind it to the beginning and play that

16 portion again, please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So what was your question, please?

18 What is it that you are interested in while we are waiting for the tape?

19 MR. STAMP:

20 Q. I want you to see exactly where somebody comes from the building

21 and then I will ask you a couple of questions about that.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is this the beginning of the portion or the --

23 MR. STAMP: It is the beginning. It is about to be played back, I

24 take it. Please proceed with the tape.

25 [Videotape played]

1 MR. STAMP: Stop there, please.

2 Q. Can you say why persons would exit the building from that place?

3 A. Yes, I can. We exited through this side of the building because

4 the other side was exposed to sniper fire, that exactly the direction that

5 I mentioned, that I indicated on the map. You could also see the stairs

6 which were partly damaged with the shell. So this would be one of the

7 exits that I talked about. This is what we used to get out into the

8 building, depending on where you live. People left the building through

9 those small openings, small windows, because on the other side of the

10 building, there was sniper fire. It was not possible to get out on that

11 side of the building because you would soon be hit.

12 Q. And that sniper fire that you speak of from the other side of the

13 building is the sniper fire that came down the street from the area on the

14 map which you marked number 5; is that correct?

15 A. Yes. Yes, that's the area.

16 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours, Mr. President, that

17 concludes the examination-in-chief.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Stamp.

19 Mr. Hafizovic, you will now be examined by Defence counsel. Is

20 it you, Ms. Pilipovic, or you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, who will cross-examine

21 the witness?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Me, Your Honour. Thank you

23 very much.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

1 I should like to ask you several question which we will take up

2 in order. Very well.

3 Witness, would you tell the Chamber what was the situation like

4 with the lines of conflict between the two parties during the war? Would

5 you precisely indicate to the Chamber where they were.

6 A. I am afraid I don't quite understand your question. But I think I

7 can answer your question.

8 Q. If you haven't understood it, I will rephrase it.

9 Can you tell us, Witness, what you knew about the position of the

10 separation lines between the two belligerent parties?

11 A. I cannot tell you about the position of these lines, but all of us

12 who lived there knew very well where it was possible for us to move and

13 where it was not, if that is what you had in mind.

14 Q. Very well. So I presume you also knew where you shouldn't be

15 venturing?

16 A. Yes, because we didn't dare because of the shooting. The same

17 goes for the street that I talked about. As soon as you venture into that

18 street, you risked being killed.

19 Q. You are referring -- you could hear the people who were close to

20 the front line?

21 A. I am sorry, I don't understand your question.

22 Q. Are you talking about the areas which were close to the front

23 line, that is, in the vicinity of the separation line which opposed the

24 two parties to the conflict?

25 A. No, I was referring to the area where the lines were, that is, the

1 area where we dare move, where we would walk. So there were such areas

2 where it was not possible to move freely, although they were actually free

3 because of the shooting.

4 Q. Let me interrupt you.

5 If there were free areas, that is areas where you could move,

6 could you indicate on the map for us where was the area where you didn't

7 dare go?

8 A. I could indicate some such areas.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you. I know that during the relevant times you

10 were 17, relatively young. Therefore, what do you know about the

11 locations of the command post of the brigade which was located in

12 Dobrinja?

13 A. I was a civilian. I was not a member of the army.

14 Q. I know, sir, that you were a civilian, but that was not my

15 question. I wanted to know whether you knew where the command post of the

16 brigade which was located in Dobrinja was? Just tell us yes or no.

17 A. I am sorry. Would it be possible for you to rephrase the

18 question? I am not quite clear as to what you mean.

19 Q. Well, the question seems quite clear to me.

20 Did you know where the command posts of the brigade located in

21 Dobrinja were?

22 A. No. Well, actually, I know where it was located, but I don't

23 understand your question.

24 Q. Well, if you know where they were located, can you indicate those

25 locations for us? Can you tell us where they were?

1 A. Dobrinja II.

2 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, we didn't hear the counsel.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the English booth tells me that

4 they couldn't hear you. I think that was when you asked whether the

5 witness knows where they were located, whether he could indicate those

6 locations and whether he could tell us where they were, I think that is

7 the part the English booth might have missed.

8 The answer was "Dobrinja II," so please proceed.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, my apologies to the

10 English chamber.

11 Q. My question was: Where was the command post of the brigade

12 located in Dobrinja? That was my question.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honour,

14 whether you intend to finish at a quarter to 2.00 or 2.00. Just a

15 practical question.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... because this

17 courtroom will be used this afternoon as well.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I will find the

19 suitable moment to break.

20 Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Witness, do you know where other command posts were located? I

22 am referring to the battalions, not the brigade, but the battalions that

23 were located in Dobrinja.

24 A. I don't think I am able to tell you such locations. I don't know

25 those streets.

1 Q. You told me just now that you didn't know the street where they

2 were, but would you be able to indicate approximately where they were on a

3 map?

4 A. I don't think I have anything to do with that.

5 Q. I am not asking you whether you have anything to do with that or

6 not, I am just trying to find out whether you are able to indicate such

7 locations or not.

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Hafizovic,

9 the relevance of the questions put to you and whether you think that you

10 have got something to do with those subjects touched upon by the

11 questions, you can leave it to us. If you have any specific problem with

12 it, please tell me, and if not, you just answer the question. Sometimes

13 you might not perfectly perceive why it is relevant for the Defence, but

14 we will keep a close eye on that. Yes.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we

16 should perhaps let the witness think about the question. We can stop here

17 and I will continue with the same line of questioning tomorrow when we

18 resume.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hafizovic, we cannot continue this afternoon

20 since this courtroom is used for another case this afternoon. That means

21 that we resume tomorrow morning in the same courtroom at 9.00. And that

22 is a message for everyone. We adjourn until tomorrow, 9.00, same

23 courtroom.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25 1.45, p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

1 the 25th, day of April, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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