Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7805

1 Thursday, 25 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, very much, Madam Registrar.

9 I did understand, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that Ms. Pilipovic will not

10 be attending the session of this morning.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. My

12 co-colleague is not here today. She asked me to tell you, to all of you,

13 since we will not see each other again before next week, to express her

14 sincere wishes for the upcoming holidays as far as she's concerned and all

15 the best to all of you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

17 Mr. Ierace, I think the first thing we have to do is listen to you

18 to whatever observations you might make to the request to grant a

19 certificate for an interlocutory appeal in respect of the decision we have

20 taken on the admissibility of the written statements of deceased

21 witnesses.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Mr. President, there is a tension between Rule 72(B) and (C).

25 Rule 73(B) states that the decisions are without interlocutory appeal.

Page 7806

1 (C) then allows for the issue of a certificate to appeal in certain

2 circumstances. Those circumstances are, quoting the words of the Rule,

3 where the decision "is appropriate for the continuation of the trial."

4 Mr. President, it seems to the Prosecution that one may draw from

5 those words and from Rule 73(B) that it is only in exceptional

6 circumstances that a certificate would issue. In my respectful

7 submission, those exceptional circumstances would apply where the Trial

8 Chamber itself is troubled by the decision, perhaps, for instance, because

9 of a conflict between the decision it is handing down and other decisions

10 handed down by other Trial Chambers, in other words, where the Trial

11 Chamber feels a need for an issue to be resolved at the appellate level.

12 Secondly, in particular having regard to the words of 73(C), it

13 seems to the Prosecution that there must be an issue which strikes

14 significantly at the continuation of the trial. In other words, the

15 ramifications of the decision must be fundamental to the trial. In my

16 respectful submission, neither of those two concerns are made out in this

17 case because the Trial Chamber has not found any conflict in the law in

18 its judgment and, indeed, the request by the Defence recites that the law

19 as found by Your Honours is consistent with that which emerged in a recent

20 decision in the Milosevic case. The issue in the mind of the Defence is

21 rather the manner in which the law has been applied to the particular

22 circumstances of the statements of the two deceased.

23 Thank you, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there any need to respond to

25 the observations of Mr. Ierace?

Page 7807

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but only

2 very briefly and only as regards to the form, if you will allow me. Thank

3 you.

4 I think that this Rule 73 is a problematical one indeed. It gives

5 to your Chamber the authority to, in a certain sense, pronounce judgments

6 on itself. It is something that we sometimes refer to as the competence

7 regarding the competence, that is, the authority to decide on its own

8 decisions. Subparagraph (C) functions in a way as a "lex specialis" with

9 respect to the overall rule. We are here concerned with the

10 administration of evidence and we have to examine the issue in light of

11 these provisions.

12 Let me tell you what our position is. What will happen tomorrow

13 if the Prosecution shows these documents and then submits them to other

14 witnesses or shows them in the context of a different procedure, a

15 different investigation, and later on we come to a conclusion that it

16 should not have been accepted within the framework of Rule 73? There is

17 a logical necessity when it comes to the application of justice. We have

18 to decide on this issue as soon as possible, or at the end of the trial,

19 but then we will be faced with certain risks because a posteriori we will

20 have to take the issue again. I don't believe that that was the intention

21 of the author of the Rules. I think we have to be as specific as it is

22 possible. We are trying to help you with these Rules, Rule 73(B) and (C),

23 and I think that it is up to another Chamber to issue such a certificate

24 so that the issue can be ruled upon.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 7808

1 The Chamber will decide either today or tomorrow whether a

2 certificate will be granted or not. May I remind the Defence that if a

3 certificate would be granted, that although we are not sitting next week,

4 there is still the time limit of seven days to file an appeal within the

5 seven days. So it is just -- I don't know what decision we will take, but

6 it would be a waste of time if we would grant a certificate and if then

7 the Defence would forget about seven days' time limit for filing an

8 appeal. Of course, if they want to file an appeal.

9 Having said this, you can expect our decision either today or

10 tomorrow. Yes.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I briefly raise one other

12 issue?


14 MR. IERACE: And that is the timetable. As I understand it at

15 the moment, formally, the Prosecution is required to complete its case by

16 early July. As I indicated to you on Monday morning, the Prosecution is

17 presently engaged in a thorough review of its case, that is, the part that

18 remains to be presented. And in two weeks' time from then, which

19 will be Monday week, if it is convenient to the Trial Chamber, I will

20 inform you of any ramifications of that. In the meantime, however, given

21 that we are required by you to finish the case in early July and having

22 regard to the requirements of Rule 94 bis, that is the Rule which sets

23 down the steps which must be taken in relation to expert witnesses, if

24 that deadline still applies, the Prosecution then comes under some

25 pressure to present the reports of its various expert witnesses.

Page 7809

1 I note that the last edition of the Chamber's -- Trial Chamber's

2 timetables indicates that Trial Chamber II will hear Galic, the trial of

3 Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic until the 2nd of August.

4 Mr. Prosecutor -- Mr. President, I give you every assurance that

5 we are doing everything we can to ensure that the remainder of the case

6 is only essential evidence, and whilst I do not wish to preempt what I

7 will say on Monday week, I would be very grateful if the Trial Chamber in

8 the meantime could confirm that we have available to us the month of

9 July, so as to enable us to secure the expert reports and their filing

10 without, if I could call it this, without undue pressure.

11 I note that under Rule 94 bis, the time that the Defence has to

12 indicate its position in relation to expert reports may be reduced from 30

13 days, but it seems to me that it is prudent to work on the expectation

14 that there will be allowed the full 30 days.

15 The space of a week and-a-half at this stage is, in fact, quite

16 critical in terms of obtaining the reports in final form and filing them.

17 I would therefore be very grateful if we did have that latitude to not be

18 called upon to file them in the next few week and also the latitude to

19 leave the final decisions in relation to timetable until Monday week, but

20 in the meantime, some indication that we have the benefit of that extra

21 latitude.

22 Thank you, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We will consider the matter, and unless

24 there is at this moment some observation to be made by the Defence...

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Since we

Page 7810

1 are discussing the issue of time limits, could we perhaps ask the

2 Prosecution to state finally when they will be able to provide us with the

3 response to the issue of, if I may call them document erosions, that is

4 the problems that we have had with the documents that are now part of

5 the case file. I am referring to the deleted or erased portions of the

6 text. It is very important, Mr. President, for the Defence to be able to

7 know with respect of their cross-examination, how these manipulations

8 happened, and why. Could the Prosecution perhaps be given some deadline

9 to provide this response so that we are able to prepare ourselves for the

10 witnesses to come.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That is not a response just to the observations made

12 by Mr. Ierace, but another issue raised by the Defence, but raised before

13 as well, and it also relates to the time for the preparation of case

14 presentation or cross-examination.

15 We will consider the matter, and I hope that we are able to do

16 it today since we are not sitting tomorrow, but otherwise there certainly

17 will be a way of communication between perhaps the senior legal officer

18 and the parties if we would not be able to give you an answer to your

19 question during a court session today.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just two matters very briefly. I

21 referred to Trial Chamber II. Of course, I should have said Trial Chamber

22 I. And secondly, by way of encouragement, I can indicate that we have so

23 far eliminated some 40 witnesses from the witness list. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Since you spoke about the

25 Galic case, I assumed that you were referring to this Chamber and not

Page 7811

1 another Chamber.

2 MR. IERACE: May I be excused, Mr. President?


4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the Defence ready to continue the

5 cross-examination of Mr. Hafizovic?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It will be my pleasure, Mr.

7 President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please guide the witness into the courtroom.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Hafizovic. Can you hear me?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.

13 Mr. Hafizovic, the Defence will resume its cross-examination. May

14 I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration that you

15 made yesterday.

16 Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.


19 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. I think that we left off yesterday with the issue of the location

23 of the headquarters of the local brigade. I am once again asking you this

24 question: Do you know where these facilities were located?

25 A. I don't think I am able to answer that question. I am not

Page 7812

1 familiar enough with the issue in order to be able to provide you with any

2 specific information.

3 Q. During the events which we are now discussing, did you at any

4 point in time see soldiers gathering at specific locations?

5 A. No, I don't think I did. I was wounded. I was interested in my

6 welfare, and as far as I remember, didn't notice any such thing.

7 Q. Do I understand you correctly that throughout that period of time

8 during the war in Sarajevo, where you lived during the relevant times, you

9 never at any point in time see any groups of soldiers in your

10 neighbourhood?

11 A. We didn't go out very much because of the shooting. I don't know

12 what exactly you mean when you say "groups of soldiers" or "gathering of

13 soldiers."

14 Q. You do not understand what I mean when I say "gathering," the

15 gathering of soldiers, a group of soldiers gathered together at a given

16 location?

17 A. I am not sure I can give you accurate information about that.

18 Q. Very well, then. Could you perhaps approximate?

19 A. I don't know. As far as I remember -- if you would give me a

20 moment, perhaps I could remember.

21 Q. Well, I will give you this moment. Do you want it now or later

22 on? Shall we later on come back to the issue?

23 A. Well, perhaps it would be better at this moment.

24 Q. Very well. Can we have your answer, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed that you had some hesitations in answering

Page 7813

1 because you are not quite sure that you could give full and proper

2 information. Just tell us what you know about it. If it is not complete,

3 if there is anything you say, "I am not quite sure," just tell us what you

4 know about it and then we will hear it.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I am able to provide

6 accurate information regarding these issue and I am -- I don't feel okay

7 giving this kind of information that I am not sure about.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Very well. Witness, on a photograph which was shown to you

10 yesterday, you saw a parking area. Do you remember that?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Is it not true, Witness, that during the relevant times during

13 these events, this parking area was used by the military?

14 A. As far as I know, it was not.

15 Q. You never saw any gathering of soldiers or equipment or material

16 on this parking area?

17 A. At the time I lived there, I didn't notice any such thing.

18 Q. I am now going to show you a map, Witness, and I should like to

19 ask you to indicate on this map in general terms the front lines. So you

20 can perhaps concentrate yourself on this issue.

21 At this point, I should like to discuss another issue, the third

22 incident, the third time when you were wounded, when you were together

23 with a group of young people, with a group of friends.

24 A. Well, I was with a couple of friends. I don't know exactly what

25 you have in mind.

Page 7814












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Page 7815

1 Q. Were you not with your girlfriend and other young people?

2 A. No, that was not the third time I was wounded.

3 Q. I was referring to the third incident. I don't know how my

4 question has been interpreted. I apologise.

5 So which of these incidents is this one, the first one, the second

6 one or the third one?

7 A. If you are referring to the incident when I was wounded in the

8 head, that is my second wounding.

9 Q. Very well. Let us discuss the second incident.

10 What was the distance between the place where you were and the

11 front lines?

12 A. I don't know exactly, but it must have been around 50 metres, more

13 or less.

14 Q. So you were shot from that spot, from the front line?

15 A. The building in which I was, that is the spot where I was wounded,

16 and then in the direction of the front lines. I don't know exactly where

17 they were because I never actually went there.

18 Q. Yes, but is it your testimony that you were shot at from the enemy

19 front line?

20 A. As I said, I was wounded.

21 Q. Witness, we all know by now that you were wounded, but you told us

22 that the fire was opened from the so-called Serb army, by the so-called

23 Serb army; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was that mortar fire?

Page 7816

1 A. Yes, as far as I know.

2 Q. Is it correct that you testified that you declared that the round

3 in question was an 82 calibre -- millimetre shell?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it also correct that you stated that you were shot at from the

6 enemy lines?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So is it the same line as the one that you just mentioned?

9 A. As I said, I was wounded by a mortar shell, and at the moment I

10 got out of the building and into the street, I heard shouts coming from

11 the other side.

12 Q. Thank you very much for this answer, but this is not the answer

13 to my question.

14 In accordance -- with respect to your statement, was that a mortar

15 shell which had been fired from the enemy lines; is that your testimony?

16 Is that what you stated?

17 A. I stated that I had been wounded by an 82 millimetre shell. A

18 part of it was found later on by some neighbours. I don't know exactly

19 who. But the shell in question was manufacture -- was of Yugoslav

20 manufacture.

21 Q. Do you know what the firing position was when you were wounded?

22 A. I cannot tell you exactly.

23 Q. So it was from Serbian lines?

24 A. I can't tell you exactly whether it was from Serbian lines.

25 Q. Very well, thank you for this answer.

Page 7817

1 Were there any other persons who were wounded in this incident,

2 Witness?

3 A. Well, there were other people with me, but they weren't wounded.

4 We were in the flat.

5 Q. Witness, when you were wounded, did you go to the hospital; is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Witness, did you receive a medical document after this incident?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Witness, could you please tell us where this medical document is?

11 A. I have enclosed it with all the other medical documents. It has

12 been attached to the other medical documents.

13 Q. Could you tell us when you received this medical document, what

14 the date of this medical document is?

15 A. The 13th of January, 1993.

16 Q. Thank you. Witness, you said that you had been wounded in the

17 head. Could you show us where, please.

18 A. I can, but you would have to approach in order to see it.

19 Q. Well, it is not for me, it is for everyone in this courtroom.

20 Could you just show us the area in which you were wounded?

21 A. Well, it was here.

22 Q. As beneath your hair, which you apparently still have, is that

23 correct? For the sake of the transcript.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, for the transcript, you may

25 indicate where the witness pointed at, but a comment was included.

Page 7818

1 The witness points at his forehead just after the -- after where

2 his hair begins, to a place covered by his hair. It was in the middle of

3 his head.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that is quite right, and

5 we could add that, from a distance, no scar is noticeable.

6 Q. Witness, in the other incident that you spoke to us about when

7 you were wounded, I think in the knee --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you were again commenting.

9 Mr. Hafizovic, is there a scar on that place? You don't have to

10 show it to us, but is there a scar on the place you indicated which

11 cannot be seen by us because it is covered by your hair?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a scar on my head which is

13 very visible. If anyone wants to approach me and to see it, that is not a

14 problem.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you very much.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Witness, I want to turn back to the other incident when you were

19 wounded in the knee. Do you remember that?

20 A. Very well.

21 Q. Could you tell us, remind us of the date of that incident?

22 A. Could you just repeat that, when I was wounded which time, what

23 did you say exactly?

24 Q. I was asking you whether you remembered the date of the incident

25 when you were wounded in the knee and in the finger.

Page 7819

1 A. I was wounded on the 24th of October, 1992. I was wounded in the

2 finger and the knee on that occasion.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Do you have any medical documents which

4 relate to this incident?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Have you provided the Prosecution with them?

7 A. Yes, I have.

8 Q. Since we are speaking about these medical documents, yesterday, we

9 saw a document which is a medical certificate and there is a handwritten

10 text on it, three or four words to the right and the right upper hand

11 corner of this document. Who wrote these words?

12 A. I think my mother wrote that. I am not sure, though.

13 Q. If you are not sure about that, is there anyone else you could

14 think of?

15 A. No. My mother is psychologically a little unstable, you know.

16 She has a bit of tension, you know. So I think that she wrote that. If

17 necessary, I can explain this to you a bit.

18 Q. I don't think it is necessary, Witness, but thank you.

19 Witness, you said that the street in which you lived at a certain

20 time was shot at by a sniper. Do you remember saying this?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Did you ever see that sniper, because you mentioned one sniper?

23 A. Well, I am talking about the place that they shot at, so there was

24 a sniper shooting down that street, not only on one occasion, but on

25 several occasions and over the course of several days.

Page 7820

1 Q. Witness, I will interrupt you there. Did you, yourself, see it

2 with your own eyes, the sniper?

3 A. I did not see him with my own eyes, but I could see which

4 direction it was coming from.

5 Q. Very well, We have understood that. But you didn't see him with

6 your own eyes; is that correct?

7 A. Well, naturally, I wasn't even able to look out in that direction.

8 Q. Thank you. So, Witness, as a result, it is not possible for you

9 to know whether this person was a civilian or a member of the military; is

10 that correct?

11 A. You are referring to the person who was shooting?

12 Q. We are speaking about the same thing.

13 A. Could you please clarify this?

14 Q. Well, I will be very precise: The sniper. That is to say, you

15 were not able to know whether this person was a civilian or a member of

16 the military; is that correct?

17 A. Well, usually when someone shoots at you, you don't look in that

18 direction. You try to pass through, if you have to, and to cross over as

19 soon as possible so as to avoid danger.

20 Q. Witness, I am going to interrupt you there. But do you personally

21 know whether this sniper was a member of the military or not, yes or no?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you. So as a result, it is not possible for you to exclude

24 the possibility that this person whom you have mentioned was a civilian?

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... the point is

Page 7821

1 perfectly clear. Please proceed.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] Thank you very much, sir.

3 Q. Very well. Witness, I would now like to move on to another series

4 of questions which concerns humanitarian aid. You lived in the area in

5 question. Do you know whether it is true that the humanitarian aid was

6 distributed every 15 days? Was that the usual rhythm? So was the aid,

7 the humanitarian aid, distributed every 15 days?

8 A. Whether it was exactly 15 days, well, I couldn't be very precise

9 about that, but it was distributed during certain periods which we all

10 knew.

11 Q. Very well. The rhythm that I have mentioned, did this appear to

12 correspond to the situation you were familiar with, was it more or less 15

13 days, every 15 days?

14 A. Well, it depended on how much humanitarian aid the international

15 community would send, and depending on this, that is when the aid would be

16 distributed. So if there was more food, it would be distributed every 7

17 days, but if not, then every 15 days. We could put it like that.

18 Q. Well, thank you for that answer, Witness.

19 Do you know since when this structure of distributing humanitarian

20 aid, sir, when this distribution started in Dobrinja, in the Sarajevo

21 area?

22 A. As soon as the international forces started sending humanitarian

23 aid. I don't know the exact date, though. So in certain areas because

24 they weren't able to provide food everywhere. Not immediately, at least.

25 It was more difficult to get food in Dobrinja for a certain time because

Page 7822

1 they wouldn't let convoys enter Dobrinja. As soon as the convoys started

2 entering Dobrinja, they started distributing the aid.

3 Q. Very well. Witness, apart from these problems concerning the

4 delivery, the punctual delivery of this aid, would you agree with me that

5 the humanitarian aid arrived during the same period during which the

6 UNPROFOR forces intervened in Bosnia and, in particular, in Sarajevo?

7 A. The humanitarian aid started, well, I wouldn't give you any

8 precise information about that, so I wouldn't want to go into it.

9 Q. Well, thank you for that answer.

10 Witness, you said that -- when you were speaking about the

11 incident in which you were wounded in the right arm, you said that this

12 occurred in the street where there was an army office. Do you remember

13 speaking about that?

14 A. I was wounded in the right arm on two occasions, if you weren't

15 aware of the fact.

16 Q. Was there an army office there on each occasion?

17 A. There was some kind of office, yes. Premises of some kind.

18 Q. Well, very well. Since you know that there was a military office

19 which was close to the site of the incident, could you tell us how far --

20 could you tell us what the distance was in terms of metres?

21 A. I can tell you that it was in the building which was opposite my

22 building and that it was a military facility, and that I was a civilian so

23 I never entered military facilities. That was forbidden, naturally.

24 Q. Witness, excuse me for interrupting you. I understand that you

25 want to give us a lot of information. But for the moment, my question

Page 7823

1 concerns the distance, the distance up until what you have called

2 a "military facility"; is that what you said?

3 A. I didn't say a military building.

4 Q. Between these military offices and the place we are talking about,

5 what was the distance separating these two places, if you can remember it,

6 at least approximately?

7 A. I didn't even say "military office," but I know that those

8 premises --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hafizovic, the question is, you referred to a

10 building opposite to the building where you were living at that time and

11 that there was a military facility in that building. What Mr.

12 Piletta-Zanin wants to know is what is the distance between those two

13 buildings. Could you give us an answer to that question?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was about 15 metres from

15 one building to the other, maybe 20.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for your help, Mr.

18 President.

19 Q. Witness, would you agree with me that this military place - it

20 doesn't matter what we call it - but it was very close to the site, too,

21 the place that we are talking about; is that correct?

22 A. We could say that it was very close.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, since it was close, perhaps even if you

24 didn't go there, it was possible for you to see what was going on there.

25 Is it true to say that this was possible?

Page 7824












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Page 7825

1 A. Well, I don't think that is true. I was a civilian and I wasn't

2 really interested in military things. I was trying to save my life. I

3 was wounded a lot and I just didn't want these things to happen. I would

4 just -- wasn't interested in the army.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hafizovic, Mr. Piletta-Zanin would like to know

6 what you know about the military facility, whether you had ever observed

7 what happened there or whether you know anything about what happened

8 there, that is the question. Because I hear that you are more

9 or less starting debate with Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and we are interested to

10 hear the facts. So whether it was possible or not, just tell us what you

11 know about it, about the military facility: Whether you saw it from a

12 distance, whether you heard it from someone else; what do you know about

13 it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that those premises were in

15 the building which was opposite my building and that these premises were

16 formally used as a sort of shop, a small shop, before the war. That is

17 what I heard from others. But I don't -- I really don't know what

18 happened inside. I never entered that place. I have been asked some

19 questions, but I don't know what is being referred to. If I am put a

20 complete question, I shall answer it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just, just saying for example, if you would

22 have seen people you consider to be military people going in there without

23 arms and coming out with arms, then of course you do not know whether they

24 are distributed there but that's at least what you then have observed.

25 What we want to know is what made you believe that it was a military

Page 7826

1 facility and what kind of facility was it? I mean, if it is a shop, you

2 can't park vehicles there. But in shops, you can make sandwiches for the

3 military, you can distribute arms, you can distribute uniforms, or

4 whatever. What do you know it? That is the question.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that they would occasionally

6 go in there, people wearing camouflage uniforms, and sometimes they would

7 come out. Whether they took weapons in there or took weapons out of

8 there, I really don't know. So I know that there was some movement, that

9 there were people who would go in there and come out of there, but I don't

10 remember anyone specifically going in with something or coming out with

11 something.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... going in or in

13 groups or, if in groups, were these groups of 2 or 3, or 10, 20, or

14 100?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in groups of 100, that is

16 certain. And as far as these other figures are concerned, I can't

17 remember. Perhaps two or three, but I really don't know.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Witness, I understand that it is difficult to remember, but can

21 you be certain that you never saw weapons with regard to this military

22 situation, with regard to this military facility?

23 A. I can't be certain.

24 Q. Thank you for that answer. I am going to show you a map now that

25 you will recognise. I have it in colour for the witness.

Page 7827

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Madam

2 Registrar, I just want to be sure of the number. Can you help me with

3 that. I think it is 103, but I am not certain.


5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that everyone has

7 received a copy. We will put it on the ELMO now, if the usher would help

8 us. Perhaps the other way around. I think that it would perhaps be

9 necessary to put it a bit lower down. Could you show us this part which

10 includes the airport? A little more. That is fine. Thank you.

11 Q. Witness, can you recognise the part of Sarajevo which is Dobrinja?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 Q. Thank you. We are going to give you a black felt tip in a minute.

14 I hope that will be fine enough to enable you to write down certain

15 things, if possible.

16 Witness, first of all, if possible, I would like you to indicate

17 to us, to the best of your recollection, the location of the front line to

18 the south of Dobrinja, in the southern part of Dobrinja. Could you do

19 this for us?

20 A. Could you please just tell me where the south part of Dobrinja is?

21 Q. Very well. I am talking about the south of Dobrinja, the

22 south-east of Dobrinja, to be more precise -- the south-west, sorry, the

23 south-west of Dobrinja, that is to say the part which is directly adjacent

24 to the airport.

25 A. To the airport?

Page 7828

1 Q. Yes, that is correct.

2 A. Should I mark this?

3 Q. Use the pointer to indicate it first of all, please. Indicate it

4 with the pointer, please.

5 A. So at the beginning there were at the airport.

6 Q. Now, Witness, show us where at the time of these events the front

7 lines were located.

8 A. You mean the event in which I was wounded?

9 Q. If you want to take these as a points which could help you to

10 locate things, very well.

11 Witness, let's do this differently. They said that your

12 grandmother's apartment was shot at by a tank; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Well, let's take this as a point of reference. At that time -- at

15 that time, do you know where the front line was?

16 A. At that time, the Serbian forces controlled the airport and this

17 road here by the airport, the castle.

18 Q. Very well. Would you like to take a pen, please, and mark this

19 demarcation line, the front line? Take a felt tip, a black felt tip.

20 A. Well, at that time they shot at my grandmother's flat and when we

21 had to leave it?

22 Q. Precisely, yes.

23 A. Not all of the buildings are marked so I am not able to indicate

24 to you which buildings these are. But I know that the road here is the

25 one linking up Lukavica and Kula with Ilidza.

Page 7829

1 Q. Witness, if this pen is not working, take another one. I don't

2 know whether it is the pen or not.

3 Witness, would you please trace once again the line which you

4 were indicating and which is not visible on the screen? Will you please

5 trace it once again?

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 And now, Witness, I should like to ask you to mark with a cross

9 the spot where your grandmother's apartment was located, that is the

10 apartment in which you were wounded in your knee and your finger.

11 A. The names of the streets are not marked, so I cannot pinpoint the

12 exact spot, but it should be here, approximately, in this area.

13 Approximately here. Maybe if you have a map with exact locations, I will

14 be able to show you exactly where it is.

15 Q. Would you please just mark the area with the cross, the area where

16 you think it happened. I don't have any other maps.

17 A. Either here or here, but I think it is here at this spot.

18 Q. Would you please mark the area with a cross.

19 A. Yes, sorry.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 Witness, I am now talking about the incident where -- in which

22 fire was opened from a tank, as you indicated.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You told us, Witness, that it was possible for you to see, from

25 your apartment, the tanks which opened fire. Can you, therefore, tell us

Page 7830

1 from which direction the shots had come? Without marking the map, just

2 with the pointer, please.

3 A. Kula is situated above the airport so I think the area in

4 question should be here. This is the hill. From this direction here,

5 because I don't see any markings such as Gavrica Brdo.

6 Q. Very well. Would you please put the circle in the area where you

7 think the shots had come from. Just encircle the area in question.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. I cannot follow you for technical reasons, but I think that Mr.

10 Usher could place the map on the ELMO so that we can see it.

11 Could you please mark with the letter "T" the area in question so

12 that we know that we are talking about a tank here?

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.

15 Would you now show us once again on this map the location of the

16 incident in which you were wounded in the head, that is, in this

17 first-floor apartment. Do you remember that?

18 A. It was not on the first floor. You have to be more precise. I

19 don't know which wounding you have in mind.

20 Q. I was -- I did perhaps say the first floor. My apologies. But I

21 was thinking of the ground floor, actually. The incident in which you

22 were wounded in the head. I think it is the only one in which you were

23 wounded in the head.

24 A. Yes, yes, you are quite right, your question was not accurate

25 enough.

Page 7831

1 Q. I thank you very much for correcting my question. As far as I can

2 tell, your memory serves you well.

3 A. I know that many of the streets here are marked and their names

4 indicated, however, quite a few names are missing. I think it was here.

5 Q. Would you mark the area with a triangle, please. Would you please

6 put a triangle on this spot.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Thank you very much. So this is the location in respect of which

9 you stated that the front line was some 15 metres away?

10 A. Yes, I think that that is the location in question.

11 Q. Did you tell us with respect of this location, that the front line

12 actually went through the buildings?

13 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

14 Q. I will repeat the question. I think that you indicated that the

15 front line consisted of residential buildings?

16 A. Yes. You asked me to indicate the area, and I think I indicated

17 the direction of the fire. There were many such directions. If you are

18 interested in the one which resulted in my wounding, I will be happy to

19 indicate it on the map.

20 Q. We will come to that, Witness. I just want you to tell me whether

21 "yes" or "no," the front line consisted of residential buildings?

22 A. It went between buildings, as far as I know, along one of the

23 streets between the buildings.

24 Q. Thank you very much. And, Witness, can you now indicate on this

25 map the place of the incident in which you were wounded once again in the

Page 7832

1 right arm.

2 A. I was wounded in my right arm on two occasions.

3 Q. I am referring to the incident involving the distribution of

4 humanitarian aid.

5 A. I believe this was the spot. Once again, we cannot see the name

6 of the street on this map but I believe that this is the relevant area.

7 Q. Would you be so kind and mark it with a circle, please.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Very good, thank you.

10 Where was the military facility located, the one that you

11 mentioned a moment ago? Is that the building that we can see right across

12 the street from the indicated spot?

13 A. Yes, I think it was here.

14 Q. Would you please indicate the area with a dot? With a solid

15 circle so that we can see the difference.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Very well, thank you. When talking about the incident involving a

18 tank, you told us that it was your opinion that you were deliberately

19 targeted?

20 Q. Yes. The reason you said that was because you were able to see

21 the tanks?

22 A. The tanks appeared several times at this location and they were

23 quite visible. It was possible to see them.

24 Q. Witness, is it correct that in front of your apartment in the

25 direction from which the fire was opened by this tank, that there was a

Page 7833

1 block of flats?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were they there during the war?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 Let me now move on to another line of questioning.

7 Witness, did you ever hear mortar fire coming from the Dobrinja

8 neighbourhood?

9 A. Dobrinja was divided in two. I don't know which part you have in

10 mind, the BH side or the Republika Srpska side.

11 Q. The BH side.

12 A. No, I didn't see that.

13 Q. Well, I didn't ask you whether you saw it, I asked you whether you

14 heard such fire.

15 A. I cannot remember.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.

17 Witness, when you went to hospital following the incident

18 involving distribution of humanitarian aid, you were driven there. You

19 were driven to the hospital; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Once at the hospital, did you see any patients, any

22 wounded persons, who could have been members of the military?

23 A. I am not sure.

24 Q. If you are not sure, am I right in understanding that it is

25 possible that the wounded soldiers were there as well?

Page 7834












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7835

1 A. I really don't have any such knowledge. I don't know whether

2 there were any wounded soldiers in the hospital. So I cannot give you a

3 precise answer. But anything is possible.

4 Q. Indeed. Can you confirm, Witness, that at the location where the

5 humanitarian aid was distributed, that as far as the distribution of

6 humanitarian aid is concerned, that that was the only shelling incident?

7 A. I am sorry, I don't understand your question. Are you referring

8 to any specific day?

9 Q. No. I am speaking in general terms. I am afraid the question is

10 not quite clear. Could you try and provide us with an answer in spite of

11 that?

12 A. Would you please be so kind and repeat the question once again?

13 JUDGE ORIE: The question is whether you know of any shelling

14 when the humanitarian aid was distributed, other weeks, perhaps even

15 other years. That is what the question is about.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not sure. I don't have any

17 precise information about that. There were such cases, but I didn't hear

18 about them. I know that there was an incident involving a water pump and

19 when some people were wounded. I know also that there was an incident at

20 the Markale market involving the humanitarian aid. I don't know.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The question is whether at this very place where

22 you observed the shelling while humanitarian aid was distributed, whether

23 at that same spot you know of any other shelling on other days, other

24 months, other years while the humanitarian aid was distributed there.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.

Page 7836

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you once again for your

3 assistance, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, let me now move on with another set of questions

5 concerning the Territorial Defence. Have you heard about that? Are you

6 familiar with Territorial Defence?

7 A. Yes, I am.

8 Q. Is it true that the members of the Territorial Defence, in

9 particular at the beginning of the conflict, did not have a regular

10 uniform?

11 A. From what I heard, I don't think they did. But they may have. At

12 any rate, I am not sure. All I know is that they were not well organised

13 at the beginning.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 Witness, do you know if any civilians established any militia and

16 obtained weapons? I am referring to individual residential areas,

17 residential blocks. Did they organise themselves locally?

18 A. I have not heard of any such organisations, I am not sure.

19 Q. Did you, yourself, see any -- any civilian or any such person

20 using these buildings for their protection?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you see any trenches?

23 A. There were no trenches at the beginning of the war, as far as I

24 know.

25 Q. I am sorry, I did not -- I did not follow the B/C/S translation.

Page 7837

1 I didn't use the word "tranchees" but "retranches," but maybe it is not of

2 any great importance.

3 Did you see any military vehicles, any tanks in front of these

4 buildings?

5 A. Could you explain to me what you meant?

6 Q. I was referring to a platoon, actually, to a small group of

7 people, two, three, four.

8 A. I don't remember this. I cannot confirm that.

9 Q. Witness, when you left, when you went into town, you never saw any

10 people who were some kind of guards in front of the buildings?

11 MR. STAMP: One moment.


13 MR. STAMP: If I may just ask through the Court if the question

14 could be a little bit more precise. I have tried not to intervene but I

15 am having difficulty following some of these questions: Which buildings,

16 where, what part of town, the whole town. What are the questions asking

17 precisely?

18 JUDGE ORIE: I must say, Mr. Stamp, that the questioning started

19 more precise. It was about whether people organised in residential

20 blocks, and I think it is an interaction between the answers and the

21 questions. So perhaps I should perhaps ask Mr. Piletta-Zanin to be a bit

22 more precise and to ask the witness to tell us what he knows, even if the

23 question does not indicate what residential block it was. But if you know

24 anything about people standing guard, for example, in residential blocks

25 in the neighbourhood where you lived, to tell us about it.

Page 7838

1 So I am asking you to try to understand the question to the best

2 of your possibilities, and at the same time, I would like to ask Mr.

3 Piletta-Zanin to ask the questions as precise as to his possibilities.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will do my best,

6 Mr. President.

7 Q. Would the Witness please be so kind and respond to the question.

8 A. Well, speaking of the military and what we were able to see, there

9 were soldiers, but that they were wearing civilian clothes or military

10 clothes, I don't remember.

11 Q. I have to interrupt you, Witness. My question was very precise:

12 Did you personally see groups of civilians organised with the purpose of

13 defending certain block of flats in Dobrinja; yes or no?

14 JUDGE ORIE: The question is perhaps not that precise,

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 What Mr. Piletta-Zanin wants to know, whether you ever saw people

17 that you would, for example, on the basis of their clothing, people that

18 you would consider to be civilians - so not wearing specific military

19 uniform or military equipment - standing guard and thus giving the

20 impression that they were defending residential buildings?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may have seen some civilians

22 carrying some weapons. Of course, I saw soldiers.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the question mainly was about

24 civilians, those not recognisable as military people, whether they would

25 be in the neighbourhood of residential blocks, giving you the impression

Page 7839

1 that they are standing guard or defending these residential blocks. I am

2 talking about civilians, people with a civilian appearance, whether armed

3 or unarmed.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe at the very beginning of the

5 war, during those couple of days, maybe. I probably saw, at the beginning

6 of the war, someone in civilian clothes, according to that description.

7 What exactly they were wearing and what they were doing, I don't know,

8 but, yes, I saw some people in civilian clothes. I don't know whether

9 you can understand how it was. Nobody was prepared for the war and it is

10 quite possible that a civilian should have come out of their house

11 carrying a weapon. If the counsel has any specific dates in mind and if I

12 can remember them, I will tell him, but I don't know why he keeps

13 insisting on these things, and I am not sure and I don't know.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hafizovic, if you would just tell us, could you

15 tell us in the later stages of the conflict because you said, "I might

16 have seen civilians in the beginning of the conflict."

17 At the later stages, what would you then have seen?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So you mean at the later stage in

19 the war? Of course, people walked around in uniforms, the military.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Were they specifically defending or standing guard

21 at residential buildings or would you see them going to, for example, the

22 demarcation line, the front line?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the area where I lived, I never

24 noticed anyone guarding any building. It was not necessary to guard

25 buildings. But it is possible that people passed by carrying weapons. It

Page 7840

1 would have only been natural.


3 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Once again, thank you very

5 much, Mr. President.

6 Q. Let me move on to another subject, Witness.

7 Yesterday, you testified about a young woman who was wounded in

8 the head. Do you remember that testimony?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. You also mentioned a soldier who was there; do you remember

11 that?

12 A. A man wearing a uniform.

13 Q. Very well, let us call him the man in the uniform. How was this

14 person evacuated?

15 A. I was wounded. I went up to her --

16 Q. I am sorry, Witness. I am not asking about your wound. I am

17 interested in the evacuation of this person. How was she pulled out? Did

18 someone carry her? Was she taken by a car?

19 A. The two of us pulled her out of that spot by holding her by her

20 feet and her hands, and we put her in a vehicle.

21 Q. What kind of vehicle was it?

22 A. I couldn't tell you exactly what kind of vehicle it was.

23 Q. Was it a military or a civilian vehicle?

24 A. It seems to me that it was a civilian vehicle but, frankly

25 speaking, I was not paying much attention to the vehicle. I was

Page 7841

1 interested in the person.

2 Q. Yes, but it could have been a well-known make of a car. Was it a

3 Golf, maybe, do you know?

4 A. I am not sure.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

6 we have to have a break at this point. I only have a few questions left.

7 We may have take up more time, but I don't think so. I think that we

8 are still within the framework.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are still within the framework and unless

10 your questions would not take more than a couple of minutes, we would

11 first have the break.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] A little more, I am afraid.

13 JUDGE ORIE: To give you an indication, if we would have a break

14 until 11.00. Any question later than 11.30 would go beyond.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I will be within

16 that limit of time.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will have a break until 11.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

19 --- Upon resuming at 11.05 a.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With pleasure, Mr. President.

22 Q. Witness, I would like to continue with your examination, with your

23 cross-examination, at the point where we left off just a minute ago. You

24 were speaking about this young girl. Do you remember this incident?

25 A. More or less, yes.

Page 7842

1 Q. Thank you. Since you do remember it, here are the following

2 precise questions: What is her name?

3 A. I already so in my statement, I don't know her name. I didn't

4 know her before that event and I didn't know her afterwards.

5 Q. What is her first name?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Thank you. What is the exact date of this incident? When did it

8 happen?

9 A. I really can't remember that date. There were many such incidents

10 so that it just became normal.

11 Q. Time is precious, Witness, so I will move on to another question.

12 You don't know when this happened?

13 A. No, I don't know the exact date.

14 Q. To which hospital was this person taken?

15 A. I don't know. I didn't go there. Probably in Dobrinja.

16 Q. Thanks a lot. Witness, as far as you know, was there a report

17 which was written following this incident?

18 A. I am not aware of that.

19 Q. Witness, shortly after these events, were you questioned about

20 what had happened?

21 A. At that time such cases weren't investigated. This was something

22 that happened all the time, so I was not questioned.

23 Q. Witness, you are telling me that as a rule, as a general rule, no

24 investigations would be carried out after such incidents; is that what I

25 have heard?

Page 7843

1 A. Well, not even after the first time I was wounded or after the

2 second time, there was no investigation that was carried out. Many things

3 were happening at the time and that was not a priority. The priority was

4 to protect people.

5 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Witness, I would like to know if you are

6 aware of an agreement which was concluded on the 23rd of March, 1992, and

7 which regarded the evacuation of Dobrinja, the evacuation of civilians for

8 whom this was necessary. Are you aware of the existence of such an

9 agreement?

10 A. Well, I can talk about myself. I tried to leave Dobrinja, the

11 town, and the state itself, if it was possible.

12 Q. No, Witness, if you know anything about this agreement, could you

13 please tell me that you do, and if you don't, just say "no."

14 A. Well, if I take myself as an example, I tried to leave the

15 country, but I did not succeed in doing so.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hafizovic, the question is whether you know

17 anything about an agreement, that means a formal agreement. May I take

18 it that it was an agreement between parties. Do you know anything about

19 an agreement made on the evacuation of people living in Dobrinja? Not

20 your own experience, but whether you are aware of the existence of such an

21 agreement?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I am not aware of such an

23 agreement.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was going to

Page 7844












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7845

1 correct that myself. Thank you a lot.

2 Q. Witness, you are not aware of this so let's move on to something

3 else. If we are speaking about your personal experience, are you aware of

4 a place that is called Sunce? I think that this is a restaurant.

5 A. Could you repeat that, please. What is it about?

6 Q. I will repeat the question but I think that it was clear: Do you

7 know a place that is called Sunce; yes or no?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know a restaurant that is called Sunce?

10 A. At that time I don't think there were any restaurants.

11 Q. Witness, I am not asking you whether there were restaurants which

12 were open or not, I am asking you whether you know of a restaurant that

13 was called Sunce?

14 A. I don't know of any kind of restaurant that was called Sunce.

15 Q. Very well. Do you know a restaurant which was called Stela?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know a place or a restaurant called Borsalino?

18 A. Barsolino is in Alipasino Polje. That was its real address before

19 the war. It is in that area.

20 Q. Could you pinpoint this place on the map, please.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that we need the

22 usher's assistance.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please provide assistance.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, could you point to this on the map. Have a look at the

Page 7846

1 map on your right. Could you show us where the location of a Borsalino

2 is?

3 A. There are two such places. One is in the town and the other one

4 is in the place where I lived. Do you want me to indicate both places or

5 just the one in my area?

6 Q. Show us both areas -- show us both places, please.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Very well. The next one, please.

9 A. I don't think that you have a map for this. I can't find it on

10 this map.

11 Q. Could you indicate the area for the other one, the area for the

12 second place?

13 A. This zone is not on the map.

14 Q. All right. Could you please take a pen - the usher will provide

15 you with one - and in Alipasino Polje mark with a capital "B" the place

16 where the restaurant Borsalino was located.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Could you please mark it with a "B."

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, does the name "Kazani" mean

21 anything to you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thanks a lot. I am going to move on to another series of

24 questions.

25 If you could have another look at the map. You said that when you

Page 7847

1 were wounded on several occasions, you were taken to the Dobrinja

2 hospital. Could you show us where the Dobrinja hospital is located?

3 Could you do this, please? First of all with the pointer.

4 A. It was in this area more or less, but it is not marked.

5 Q. Witness, could you take the same pen, please, and mark with a

6 capital "H," mark this place with a capital "H."

7 A. Could you just wait a minute to enable me to find my bearings?

8 Q. Take your time. Take your time.

9 I could guide you, Witness. Isn't it towards the area where you

10 can see a sign for the post office? Isn't it close to that area? Can you

11 see an envelope, which stands for the post office? Wasn't it quite close

12 to this place?

13 A. The post office which is still there today? I don't know if there

14 was a post office there before the war.

15 Q. I don't know. I am just trying to guide you Witness. If you know

16 where it is, mark it with an "H."

17 A. I think it is in this part, somewhere here.

18 Q. Very well. Mark it with an "H" then so that we can see it quite

19 clearly.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you, Witness.

22 Witness, when you went to the hospital in Dobrinja on several

23 occasions, did you never see military emplacements very close by, places

24 of a military character?

25 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I was in a state of shock, and I was

Page 7848

1 in the car; I was wounded, and I think that this is something that you

2 should understand. I wasn't looking around me.

3 Q. No, I understand you quite very well. But when you left the

4 hospital, you were not in such a state of shock, for otherwise they would

5 have kept you there. So when you left the hospital, did you never see

6 military facilities close to the hospital?

7 A. I couldn't give you a precise answer to that.

8 Q. You don't remember very clearly. You are not certain. Very well

9 then. I am going to move on to another line of questioning.

10 Witness, you spoke to us a minute ago about the fact that your

11 flat was deliberately shelled. It was a shot fired from a tank. When

12 this happened, are you aware of any fighting being conducted in the area?

13 A. Well, not in that area because if there had been any fighting, we

14 wouldn't have taken the risk to go out on to the balcony to prepare food,

15 so it was not a problem.

16 Q. Witness, did this tank only fire one shell and that was directed

17 at your flat; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the only reason was to destroy your apartment?

20 A. What do you think about that?

21 Q. I don't know. Unfortunately, I wasn't there -- or, fortunately, I

22 wasn't there, but I just want to know whether this took place on one

23 occasion.

24 A. Yes. They didn't fire again. There was only one shell. It

25 didn't fire at that flat or in the surroundings of that flat after that

Page 7849

1 first shell.

2 Q. Very well. Witness, can I ask you what your father did during the

3 war?

4 A. Probably like many other adults, he was in the army.

5 Q. You say "probably." Does that mean you are not sure?

6 A. I know that he was in the army.

7 Q. Do you know whether he had a weapon on him?

8 A. My parents are divorced. I am not very close to my father so that

9 -- although the situation was such as it was, the relations between my

10 parents were not very good. My experience was not very positive.

11 Q. Witness, you said that you went to Dobrinja to visit your father.

12 Is that correct?

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... your question,

14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My father, my grandmother and my

16 grandmother.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether your father had a weapon.

18 Do you know it?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I lived with my grandmother and my

20 grandfather. But whether he had a weapon, yes, probably he had a

21 weapon. Not on him.

22 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, Mr. Hafizovic, to listen carefully to

23 the questions and then to give answers. If there is any additional

24 information, we would like to have, for example, how you would know that

25 or where you were living at that time, I am certain that either Mr.

Page 7850

1 Piletta-Zanin or the Bench or Mr. Stamp later on will ask you.

2 So you say your father had a weapon.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My father was in the army and every

4 soldier in the army had a weapon, I think.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Did he take it home or did he just use it when he was

8 on service?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see my father very often.

10 I lived with my grandparents during the war. When I did see him,

11 sometimes he had his weapon on him. When he left, he probably left with

12 the weapon, but I don't know. In the flat, I didn't see it. I didn't

13 have any contact with the weapon.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. What kind of weapon was it? Was it an AK; yes or no?

17 A. I am not very good at weapons.

18 Q. Was it a hand arm, was it an automatic rifle, a Kalasnikov?

19 A. I think that I saw it on several occasions, that I saw a pistol on

20 several occasions, if that is what you are interested in. I wasn't

21 familiar with the type of rifles at the time.

22 Q. Could you tell us where his barracks was located, since your

23 father should have been in a barracks?

24 A. I don't know. I never visited him in such places. I know that

25 during the war he came under Dobrinja and later on, when everything had

Page 7851

1 been organised, I noticed that he was in the annex of Vranic [phoen]. I

2 think that he belonged to that area, too.

3 Q. Could you tell me where this annex, and the name that you

4 pronounced which I haven't remembered, could you indicate where it was on

5 the map?

6 A. There was a barracks here in this area. I am not sure where

7 exactly, but that is the area.

8 Q. Very well. Is it near the two squares that we can see in

9 Alipasino Polje?

10 A. Yes. From Alipasino Polje, it is about an hour on foot, let's

11 say.

12 Q. Could you be a little bit precise with regard to the location of

13 these barracks? And did you go there yourself?

14 A. Civilians were not allowed to enter military facilities.

15 Q. No, but after the war, you could have gone there to see where your

16 father had done his military service. Did you go there after the war?

17 A. I didn't enter the barracks but I know where it is located

18 exactly, but it is difficult for me to pinpoint it on the map, but I know

19 where it is.

20 Q. But could you locate it on the map, please, and tell us which

21 street it was in?

22 A. I don't know the street but there was a barracks there and it was

23 surrounded by a fence. You couldn't pass through the fence. And the

24 location of the barracks...

25 Q. Witness, could you indicate it as precisely as possible on the

Page 7852

1 map?

2 A. I think it was in this part here.

3 Q. Could you encircle it, please.

4 A. This street isn't on the map. The map is not very clear.

5 Q. Please encircle it, sir.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And could you mark it with the capital letter "K" for barracks.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Thanks a lot.

10 Since we are dealing with the map, do you know where the -- where

11 the atomic shelters in Dobrinja were located?

12 A. Only the entrances to the cellars were used, or if there were no

13 cellars, then entrances would be used, and the safest places were between

14 several walls.

15 Q. I will interrupt you. But do you know whether there were any

16 specific atomic shelters in Dobrinja; yes or no?

17 A. No, I have never been to such places.

18 Q. Thank you. So you don't know?

19 A. No. I have heard other people talking about these places, but I

20 have never been to such shelters.

21 Q. Very well. If you have never been there, it is not necessary to

22 talk about this.

23 During the war, did you go to school; yes or no?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Which school did you go to?

Page 7853

1 A. These schools were improvised ones. There were several places

2 which we went to.

3 Q. Very well. These schools, the buildings where these schools were

4 located, were they used for classes?

5 A. I didn't go to such a school during the period I spent in

6 Dobrinja, and I know that there is a school there now which didn't exist

7 before.

8 Q. Very well. Witness, I have another two questions to ask you and

9 then we will have finished. Do you know whether the school buildings were

10 used by the army for certain purposes?

11 A. I can't answer that question.

12 Q. Witness, do you know whether there were any sniper units in the

13 ranks of the BH army?

14 A. I don't know.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

16 Mr. President. Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the witness?

19 MR. STAMP: Just a couple of questions.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

22 Q. You said that you delivered to OTP investigators copies of your

23 medical certificate for the injuries which you suffered in October of 1992

24 and January of 1993; is that correct? You said that, didn't you?

25 A. In respect of the three occasions, yes, I have provided with all

Page 7854












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7855

1 of these documents, three documents.

2 MR. STAMP: With your leave, Mr. President, I would like to

3 tender to the witness a document marked P3367B.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp. Do you have any copies

5 for the -- yes, you are preparing them as I see.


7 Q. Could you look at the first page of the document that you have and

8 tell me if you see your signature at the bottom of the page or a copy of

9 your signature at the bottom of the page?

10 A. Yes, this is my signature.

11 Q. And do you see your signature at the bottom of the second page in

12 your own language?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. And do you see your signature at the bottom of the third page?

15 And this page is in your own language.

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Could you look at the top of the first page and tell me do you

18 see a date there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What date is that?

21 A. The 24th of October, 1992.

22 Q. And could you look at the top of the third page and tell me if you

23 see a date there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And those were the dates of the injuries that you testified about?

Page 7856

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And are these the documents which you handed to the OTP

3 investigator, or may I put it this way: Are these copies of the document

4 which you handed to the OTP investigator?

5 A. Yes, they are, I think. I think that one document is missing that

6 I also supplied. But these are the ones.

7 Q. The document missing is a document in relation to your injury on

8 the 4th of February, 1994; is that so?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. And that was the document you were shown yesterday; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I have nothing

14 further.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Stamp, are you going to tender these

16 documents in evidence? It is just a question. Or do you want to have

17 them --

18 MR. STAMP: Entered into evidence, indeed, Mr. President. Well,

19 perhaps the Defence would indicate whether or not there is a challenge

20 as to the existence of these documents or what exactly their case is

21 about in respect to these documents. Questions were asked about them so

22 we have produced them.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first ask a different question: Is there any

24 dispute about the fact that the witness provided documents to the

25 Prosecution? I mean, that, as far as I understood, was the question

Page 7857

1 put to the witness by Mr. Piletta-Zanin. He wanted to know whether the

2 witness provided these documents to the Prosecution. May I take it that

3 these documents have been part of the disclosure. So what is there in

4 dispute at this very moment?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at this point

6 in time, there is no issue. I am very happy to be in the possession of

7 these documents, but if you will allow me very briefly to continue along

8 the same line as Mr. Stamp.

9 JUDGE ORIE: But if there is nothing in dispute, I mean, no one

10 asked any question apart from whether these were medical documents related

11 to certain moments. And is that in dispute?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. No, not at all, Mr.

13 President. But these documents allow us to establish something very

14 important concerning the credibility of the witness, if it is necessary.

15 MR. STAMP: The reason why --

16 JUDGE ORIE: You could have presented them to the witness and you

17 could have asked him whatever questions --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but, Mr. President,

19 perhaps, but I don't know what the response of the witness will be. You

20 have seen for yourself that he has been quite difficult in answering

21 questions which seem to be quite clear to me.

22 Now Mr. Stamp is submitting these documents, which is fine with

23 me, but will you please allow me to pose three questions to the witness?

24 JUDGE ORIE: If there was any difficulty as far as the answers you

25 obtained from the witness, you have noticed my approach. So you can't

Page 7858

1 hide behind that. I will give you two minutes.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That will be more than

3 enough. Thank you very much.

4 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, a moment ago I asked you whether you

6 observed any military facilities in the vicinity of Dobrinja, and you said

7 you did not because you were in a state of shock. Do you understand this,

8 yes or no?

9 A. Would you please repeat the question once again. I think I was

10 not well concentrated. I am afraid I misunderstood it.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. President, I

12 will go on with your permission.

13 Q. You said that you were in a state of shock and you said that you

14 did not see any military facility. I am repeating your words. Were you

15 in a state of shock on the 24th of October, 1992?

16 A. On the 28 --

17 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry the question was on the 28th of

18 October, 1992 and witness said: "On the 28th?" Question: "Yes, on the

19 28th of October."

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether the witness was at another

21 moment in a state of shock is not directly related to the production of

22 these documents. It is not a question which comes up. We have heard

23 testimony and you have had all possibilities to question the witness about

24 whether he was treated, when yes, when no, so that is not related to this

25 document. You may ask questions about the documents but nothing else.

Page 7859

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have in front

2 of me a document whose translation reads as follows: That the witness --

3 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter is not able to follow

4 the counsel at this speed.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Slow down, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [In English] I will try to slow down

7 immediately. [Interpretation] This document, Mr. President, shows that

8 the witness went to have his wounds dressed on the 28th of October, 31st

9 of October, 3rd of November, and the 11th of November, 1992, and also on

10 the 6th of November. So he went, according to this document, on five

11 various occasions to the hospital after this incident. When I asked him

12 whether he was able to see or not military facilities in the vicinity, he

13 said that he was in a state of shock.

14 Q. Now I want to know whether he was in a state of shock on the 28th

15 of October, 31st of October, the 6th of November and the 11th of

16 November.

17 A. No, I don't think I was.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions, Mr.

19 President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hafizovic, you have answered all the questions by

21 the parties, and since the Judges have no additional questions to you,

22 this concludes your testimony in this Court. It is quite a distance; it

23 must have been a quite new experience for you perhaps to appear in Court.

24 We thank you very much for coming to The Hague and to answer all the

25 questions because it is important for this Chamber to hear the answer of

Page 7860

1 witnesses to questions of the parties. So thank you very much for coming,

2 and you are excused for now.

3 Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Hafizovic out of the

4 courtroom.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through

7 the documents, and I would like to get a clear indication from the

8 parties. One of the problems in respect of the last documents is that

9 there are now full translations there. If it is just about dates, well, I

10 don't think -- we have seen so many medical documents by now, that we see

11 if there is a sequence of dates, this usually means that the patient has

12 been on these dates and whatever way of treatment or control.

13 I don't know whether it is really necessary because the question

14 about the dates and whether he was in a state of shock could be put and

15 answered also without using the document as such in evidence. If the

16 parties would agree on that. But, if not, we will have to see how we will

17 deal with that.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think it is

19 clear that we already saw that this witness went to the hospital on

20 several occasions, which is only logical. He obviously needed check-ups.

21 He said that he didn't know about certain things because he was in a

22 state of shock, and later on he said that he was not in a state of shock

23 subsequently. As far as we are concerned, we can stop here.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let's not confuse things. In my

25 recollection, the testimony about the state of shock was not at a moment

Page 7861

1 where his knee and his finger was wounded. He has testified about

2 several occasions where he was wounded. He has been testifying about the

3 other medical document, and that was a different treatment from the one on

4 P3367B. So I want to know now from the parties whether it is in dispute

5 that the witness has been in hospital in late October and early November,

6 1992, being treated on a wound on his knee and on his third finger of his

7 right hand, and whether-- and that he was not in shock at this moment. Is

8 that in dispute between the parties?

9 MR. STAMP: That is the evidence that the Prosecution tendered,

10 then it is really a matter for the Defence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin are you contesting? Are you

12 contesting --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, not at all.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then I think we can do without the document as

15 such.

16 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Unless anyone gives another good reason to have it

18 admitted into evidence.

19 Then, Madam Registrar, could you please further guide us.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3367, specialist's report of 4 February,

21 1994 in B/C/S; P3367.1, English translation; P3232, map pre-marked by the

22 witness; Exhibit P3678B, 360-degree Quicktime movie; Exhibit D102, map

23 marked by witness.

24 JUDGE ORIE: All these documents are admitted into evidence and

25 the Chamber is aware of the objections against the photograph.

Page 7862

1 Mr. Stamp, is the Prosecution ready to call the next witness,

2 which is presumably Sabahudin Ljusa.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Microphones are on in the

5 interpretation booth.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Ljusa, I assume you are Mr.

8 Ljusa. Before giving testimony in this Court, the Rules of

9 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

10 will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The text

11 of this declaration will be handed out to you now by the usher, and may I

12 invite you to make that declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Mr. Ljusa,

16 you will first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

22 Q. Could you please begin by stating your name for the record?

23 A. Sabahudin Ljusa.

24 Q. And what is your date of birth?

25 A. The 17th of November, 1983.

Page 7863

1 Q. Can you tell us whether you work now or not?

2 A. Yes, I am employed by a company in Sarajevo, and I am a car

3 mechanic by profession.

4 Q. Do you remember where you lived in February of 1994?

5 A. Yes, I do. It was in Sarajevo in one of its neighbourhoods called

6 Dobrinja. And the name of the street was Oslobodilaca Sarajeva, house

7 number 3.

8 Q. Now, on the 5th of February -- I beg your pardon, on the 4th of

9 February, 1994, were you injured in an incident?

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. Now, I am going to ask you to tell us slowly how you came to be

12 injured, starting with a time, the approximate time when it happened.

13 Can you remember the time it happened, approximately?

14 A. It happened on the 4th of February, 1994. That day, humanitarian

15 aid arrived which had been brought by a truck, which was then unloaded in

16 a warehouse situated in a building in Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street,

17 Dobrinja number X. I happened to be in the warehouse together with two

18 friends of mine. Mr. Atif was there with us. I believe he was the

19 president of the local community at the time. Flour was brought in some

20 sacks but it was leaking and there was a lot of it on the floor.

21 I think that Mr. Atif had gone to the location where this

22 humanitarian aid is initially distributed prior to that. I believe that

23 this location was in one of the apartments, at house number 9. I stayed

24 there in the warehouse, together with these two friends of mine, and we

25 needed a broom to sweep the flour off the floor and to clean the room. So

Page 7864












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7865

1 I went to a building across the street, house number 9, to an apartment --

2 to the apartment where the humanitarian aid was distributed. This

3 apartment was situated on the ground floor of that building and it

4 consisted of two bedrooms. In one of the rooms, elementary school classes

5 were organised, and the humanitarian aid was issued, distributed in the

6 other room.

7 I found a broom there. I took it and went back to house number

8 10, that is to a room adjacent to the entrance number 10. As I came out

9 of the building number 9 and was getting near the building number 10, that

10 is the warehouse, as I was crossing the street actually, some 5 metres

11 before the actual road, I felt a very loud explosion and I realised that

12 something had hit me in the chest.

13 At that moment I wasn't aware of what was happening. All I could

14 feel was a very sharp pain in my chest. I was thrown down onto the ground

15 by the detonation, but I managed to get up. I looked under my jacket and

16 I saw that I was bleeding from the chest, from the lungs, that is. So I

17 realised that I had been wounded and I went to the out-patient clinic

18 which was located in the vicinity on the same street. This clinic was

19 located in a room next to the entrance number 10. There was another small

20 room which was part of the clinic which was next house entrance number 7.

21 On the way to the clinic, I remember that Mr. Atif was behind me.

22 I think that he was also severely wounded. I went down the street walking

23 towards the clinic, and as I was getting into the clinic, I saw a lady

24 whose husband I think was holding in his -- holding her in his arms.

25 Actually, he was helping her to the clinic. I also think that I saw a red

Page 7866

1 dot on her forehead, which must have been blood.

2 Q. Do you remember her name?

3 A. She lived in the neighbourhood. I think that her name is

4 Jadranka. So I went inside the clinic. There was a lot of panic there.

5 There was an armchair which was not occupied and I sat down, and as far as

6 I remember, I was not given help right away because the clinic was crowded

7 with wounded people who were panicking. But after a while, I was given

8 medical assistance.

9 Q. Were you take anywhere from there? Did you remain in the clinic

10 or were you taken to another medical facility?

11 A. This was just an out-patient clinic or an infirmary where first

12 aid was administered. They treated my wound only initially there. They

13 covered it. I was breathing with some difficulty, and after a short

14 period of time, a vehicle arrived. I believe it was a private car. But I

15 think that it had come from the Dobrinja hospital, because there was a

16 hospital in Dobrinja neighbourhood, a wartime make-shift hospital, to

17 which I was eventually taken in this car.

18 Q. Were you treated there?

19 A. Yes, I was. I was given medical help there. It lasted a little

20 longer than it did in the clinic. But again, I was admitted to that

21 hospital only on a temporary basis, and since I was amongst the severely

22 wounded, I was with a group of people who were waiting for a vehicle that

23 would finally transport them to the Kosevo hospital.

24 Q. And were you eventually transported to the Kosevo hospital?

25 A. Yes, I was. I got into a van which drove me to the Kosevo

Page 7867

1 hospital where I was treated and where a surgery was performed.

2 Q. Can you remember how long you stayed in that hospital?

3 A. I think for about 18 or 20 days, but I am not sure.

4 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to take you back to the event on

5 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street. That is the name of the street; do I have

6 it right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. At that time when this explosion occurred, did you see any

9 soldiers or military personnel on the street?

10 A. No, I didn't.

11 Q. Were there any soldiers or military personnel there while the

12 humanitarian aid was being unloaded?

13 A. No, there weren't.

14 Q. That day humanitarian aid had arrived, were there people gathered

15 or gathering around on this street?

16 A. Yes, as far as I can remember, there were quite a lot of people

17 who were there at the time.

18 Q. And you said you were with two friends. How old were your two

19 friends? Were they about your age, younger or older, or just approximate?

20 A. They were of my age. I think that they both went to primary

21 school with me. We were in the same class.

22 Q. After you felt that explosion, do you recall hearing any other

23 explosion?

24 A. I think I heard an explosion while I was in the out-patient

25 clinic.

Page 7868

1 Q. Can you recall where the sound of that explosion came from?

2 A. I don't know where it came from exactly. There was a lot of panic

3 in the clinic, but I just heard this explosion. I couldn't say where it

4 came from exactly, but there was an explosion.

5 Q. And do you know of any other casualties, or may I put it this way:

6 When you said while you were in the clinic other casualties were arriving

7 and there was panic, do you know where these other persons were coming

8 from?

9 A. Well, not exactly, because I entered a room from which it is not

10 possible to see which direction they were brought in from. But I think

11 that it was all nearby because they all arrived at the clinic very

12 quickly. Whoever could come on foot walked to the clinic. That was the

13 easiest way to do it.

14 Q. Thank you. Do you recall participating in a video production with

15 an investigator of the OTP sometime last year, in September last year?

16 Please answer verbally. Speak your answer.

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ljusa, the interpreters should hear your voice in

19 order to interpret what you say. They can't interpret if you are just

20 nodding. That is the reason why.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.


23 Q. And in that video presentation, did you point out certain

24 positions on Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7869

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, with your leave, may I be permitted to

3 show to the witness a video numbered P -- P3281D. That is P3281D.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, leave is granted, Mr. Stamp.

5 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President. Could the video

6 be played.

7 [Videotape played]

8 "THE INVESTIGATOR: Could you please stand at the spot where, to

9 the best of your recollection, you were located at the time the first

10 shell exploded on the 4th of February, 1994?

11 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]"

12 MR. STAMP: Could you stop there, please. Could you move it for

13 an instant and then stop. Please stop.

14 Q. Behind you is the apartment from which you had taken the broom; is

15 that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that would be apartment number 9?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the position you are in now on this video where you were

20 injured is the position you came out with the broom to cross the street to

21 the room where the flour was kept; is that correct?

22 A. I haven't understood the question very well.

23 Q. The position you were in now is the position you were in when the

24 shell exploded, as you said on the video?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7870

1 Q. And at that time, you were about to cross the road to go to the

2 room where the flour was kept, to sweep it up?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. STAMP: Could you proceed with the video.

6 [Videotape played]

7 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: I will now mark this spot with yellow

8 spray paint with the letter "X" and the number "1" on it.

9 Could you please point to the location where humanitarian aid was

10 being distributed on the day of 4th of February 1994.

11 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

12 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Would you please walk to the location

13 where to the best of your recollection the school, the mosque school, was

14 located on the 4th of February 1994."

15 MR. STAMP: Could you stop there, please.

16 Q. Before we proceed, could you tell us about this mosque school?

17 Was there a mosque school being run in the community?

18 A. I don't know who ran it, but it was a religious facility. I

19 think it was a religious, an Islamic facility, and children would go there

20 to learn.

21 Q. Do you know if there were any children there when the explosion

22 occurred on the 4th of February 1994?

23 A. I think that after I left the hospital, I found out that lessons

24 had been given at that time and that there were children in that flat.

25 That was a flat, too. But I think that they were on the other side, that

Page 7871

1 is to say, in the other room which was facing in another direction.

2 Q. And did you -- do you know if any of these children were injured

3 at that time?

4 A. I think that they were wounded there, too, but not very seriously

5 wounded. These are things that I found out after I had returned from the

6 hospital.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. STAMP: Could you please continue with the playing of the

9 video.

10 [Videotape played]

11 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

12 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Will you please place your hand on

13 the window of the apartment in which the mosque school was located.

14 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

15 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: And now can you please indicate where,

16 to the best of your recollection, the first shell exploded on the 4th of

17 February 1994.

18 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

19 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Will you please show me by walking to

20 the location where, to the best of your recollection, the humanitarian aid

21 was being stored when the first shell fell on the 4th of February 1994.

22 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

23 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: And finally, finally, could you

24 please walk to the spot on the street where the passageway begins."

25 MR. STAMP: Could you stop there, please.

Page 7872

1 Q. Before we go into that part of the video, just tell us briefly

2 about this passageway. Is it -- without leading, is there a way to get

3 from the front or from Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street in the vicinity of

4 where this explosion occurred and the park behind the apartments with

5 numbers on that street? Do you understand what I am asking?

6 A. You are referring to a passageway next to the park.

7 Q. Indeed. Will you tell us about that passageway.

8 A. Yes. There was a passageway in the building opposite the one we

9 can see on the screen. On the other side of the road, there was a

10 passageway. It was between house number 3 and 4. And it was possible to

11 use this passageway to get to the park.

12 MR. STAMP: Could I just ask the technical crew to rewind

13 slightly and we will proceed again. Thank you, we can start from here.

14 [Videotape played]

15 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Finally, could you please walk on the

16 spot to the street where the passageway begins.

17 "THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

18 "THE INVESTIGATOR ON TAPE: Thank you very much for your

19 assistance. I will now walk through the passageway."

20 MR. STAMP: Thanks, we will stop there.

21 Q. You suffered injuries to your chest. Do you have any lingering

22 conditions, medical conditions, as a result of that injury?

23 A. It is not that serious. Everything is fine now.

24 Q. And did you obtain medical papers from the Kosevo hospital after

25 your release?

Page 7873

1 A. Yes, I received a letter of discharge from the hospital in

2 Kosevo.

3 Q. And you gave copies of that letter of discharge to an OTP

4 investigator last year?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President,

8 But I would like to go back to line 15 on the present page. I think that

9 I heard the witness reply in the past when asked a question by Mr. Stamp,

10 I think that he said -- I don't think that he said it is not that

11 serious, but that it wasn't that serious, and I think this is important

12 because the witness was referring to his wound, and I think that this idea

13 of the past is important. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are still waiting for the medical report so

15 that might elucidate the issue anyhow.

16 If that is true, Mr. Stamp, please proceed. If that is not true,

17 would you please then clarify the issue.


19 Q. I take it when I asked you about the present situation with your

20 medical condition, your answer is "It is not that serious. "It is not

21 that serious, everything is fine now."

22 A. Yes. I meant that it wasn't that serious now, but at that time

23 when that happened, well, I wouldn't want this to happen to anyone. Not

24 just that, but --

25 Q. You told us that you spent about 18 to 20 days in hospital?

Page 7874












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7875

1 A. Yes. I don't know how long exactly.

2 Q. So you really weren't saying that it wasn't that serious at the

3 time, were you?

4 A. No. At that time, it was serious.

5 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, with your leave, may I proffer to the

6 witness document P2252.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Leave is granted, Mr. Stamp.

8 MR. STAMP: Thank you. And to the Court a copy of that document

9 P2252.1, which is a translation thereof.

10 Q. Could you have a look at that document? And I mean to have a look

11 at the four pages of the document that you have.

12 Is that a copy of the document which you gave to our

13 investigators last year?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. STAMP: May I proceed, Mr. President?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, you may.

17 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. You said when you returned to your community after your stay in

19 the hospital you discovered that some of the children in the school were

20 injured. Did you learn anything else about any other persons who

21 suffered as a result of this, who you knew at the time?

22 A. I think that there were quite a few such people, but I wouldn't

23 mention their names. I am not sure who they were, what they were, but

24 this was all in the surroundings. They were neighbours who lived in that

25 area.

Page 7876

1 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ljusa.

2 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President, I have nothing further in

3 chief for this witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Stamp. We are close to the

5 moment where we usually have a break. So, therefore, I would rather

6 first have the break before you will be cross-examined by counsel for the

7 Defence, Mr. Ljusa. We will adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

9 --- Upon resuming at 12.59 p.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin you may proceed.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Good afternoon, Witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It will be my pleasure,

15 Mr. President. Thank you.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. You told us your date

18 of birth. However, I should like to be sure and ask you to tell us once

19 again the year of your birth.

20 A. Just the year?

21 Q. Well, you can give me the month and the date as well.

22 A. I was born on the 17th of November, 1983.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you remember having given a written statement

24 considering -- concerning the events that you have testified about?

25 A. I think I gave that statement to Bosnian authorities.

Page 7877

1 Q. Do you know when that was?

2 A. It may have been in 1995, but I am not sure.

3 Q. Thank you for your answer. Witness, let us focus, if you please,

4 on the incident which occurred and during which -- and in which you were

5 wounded. How often was humanitarian aid distributed in your

6 neighbourhood, at what intervals?

7 A. At the time the humanitarian aid was not yet distributed. It

8 started sometime after the arrival of the truck which brought the

9 humanitarian aid.

10 Q. No, I am sorry I have to interrupt you. I am not talking about

11 the day when the incident happened. I am speaking in general terms. Do

12 you know at what intervals, once a month, twice a month, twice a week,

13 this humanitarian aid was distributed?

14 A. Yes. As far as this apartment is concerned in house number 9,

15 bread was distributed, for example, every day. As for the humanitarian

16 aid, I believe it was distributed every 7 or every 15 days.

17 Q. Thank you. Witness, at the time you were taken to hospital for

18 treatment, were you conscious?

19 A. What hospital do you have in mind?

20 Q. The one that you described as being a military hospital, the one

21 at Dobrinja?

22 A. Yes, yes, I was conscious.

23 Q. Thank you. You have testified about this military hospital. Was

24 it in any way different from any other hospitals such as a civilian

25 hospital at Dobrinja?

Page 7878

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, yes

2 MR. STAMP: Perhaps it is my memory, but I don't know if my friend

3 could point to the area of the transcript to where the witness testified

4 about a military hospital.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I can try to locate it, if

6 it's necessary, but the witness has spoken about a military hospital.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Just have a look on page 68 -- no, that is already

8 in the --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] 55, 6.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Page 55, line 6, reads that I am telling the witness

11 that he will first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution, as far as I

12 can see.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will try to see what it is.

14 Maybe 58, 56 or 58. Let me check.

15 MR. STAMP: In English --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 58, 6, the testimony reads that: "I believe it

17 was a private car, but I think that it had come from the Dobrinja hospital

18 because there was a hospital in Dobrinja neighbourhood, a wartime

19 make-shift hospital, to which I was eventually taken in this car."

20 I do not see any "military hospital."

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is possible

22 that my recollection does not correspond to the transcript, but I am

23 almost sure that this witness declared that it was a military hospital. I

24 see him nodding his head. I can perhaps ask the question once again, with

25 your permission.

Page 7879

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... check what the

2 witness said before. But could you tell us when you were talking about a

3 hospital, as it is in the transcript, a make-shift hospital, did you use

4 the word "military" hospital?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible that I have used this

6 word because both soldiers and civilians were treated in such hospitals.

7 Dobrinja was isolated from the rest of the town. As far as I remember,

8 when I was admitted to this hospital, there were lots of civilians inside

9 who were panicking. The situation was just terrible. And it was in this

10 hospital that lightly wounded patients were treated there. Those

11 seriously wounded were taken to Kosevo.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have called it a military hospital, is

13 that because there were military patients or military staff, military

14 doctors?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. It was simply a hospital

16 for everyone. Both soldiers and civilians were admitted to this hospital.

17 And the doctors were, of course, civilians who worked in this hospital.

18 But it was mostly civilians who were admitted to this hospital.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

21 Mr. President.

22 Q. Witness, were there several hospitals in Dobrinja, to the best of

23 your knowledge?

24 A. No. Only one, as far as I know.

25 Q. Very well. So we are talking about one and the same hospital.

Page 7880

1 Was this hospital close to the headquarters of a brigade which was

2 located in Dobrinja?

3 A. I don't know that there was a headquarters in the vicinity of this

4 hospital.

5 Q. Witness, did you see, in the vicinity of this hospital, any

6 soldiers with weapons or groups of men in uniform?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you. Witness, to your knowledge, with respect of this

9 incident, how many people were killed? How many people died as a result

10 of this incident?

11 A. Are you referring to the massacre in which I took part?

12 Q. I wouldn't use the word "massacre," I am using the word

13 "incident," but I am referring to that particular event.

14 A. Are you referring to what I personally experienced, to the event

15 the way I went through it?

16 Q. You are quite right, Witness. How many people perished in this

17 incident?

18 A. I told you about the lady whom I saw who had a bloodstain, I

19 believe on her forehead, and the lady by the name of Jadranka. I remember

20 that she got killed on that day.

21 Q. So you personally know two individuals who were killed in this

22 incident, and no one else?

23 A. I knew Miss Jadranka, who was killed. You are maybe referring to

24 Mr. Atif. He was only seriously wounded. And I knew two more individuals

25 who got killed in this incident, as I learned after the incident. That

Page 7881

1 is, at the time when I went to the Kosevo hospital, I saw one of these two

2 persons there.

3 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you personally knew three

4 persons who perished in this incident?

5 A. No, only one in this specific incident, that is at the exact

6 location where I was. But I knew two more individuals, two more persons

7 who were killed on the same day.

8 Q. So, in total, you knew three persons who lost their lives on that

9 day?

10 A. Yes, I believe that there were three of them.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It is quite confusing if you are asking about people

12 you know who died or people you know of who died. You can know that

13 someone died; you may even have seen it. And sometimes you do not know

14 who this person is. I think that is part of the confusion that is both in

15 questioning and answers not very clear.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. I

18 think I always emphasized "personally," that is, I was trying to find out

19 whether the witness knew personally the individuals in question. But we

20 will stick with the number of three.

21 Q. Do you have a nickname, Witness?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I do not wish to create any

23 confusion with my question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry. I didn't clearly hear

25 your question.

Page 7882

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

2 Q. My question is, sir, whether you have a nickname?

3 A. Yes, I do have a nickname.

4 Q. A namesake. I am not referring to a nickname.

5 A. A homonym. I don't know what you mean.

6 Q. Do you know of anyone from your surroundings who has the same name

7 and surname as you do?

8 A. Oh, now I understand you. No, no. There is no one by the same

9 name and surname in my area.

10 Q. Very well. And as we have seen and as you have indicated, you are

11 now in a good state of health, so I take note of that.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, could you help us

13 distribute an exhibit, D103, which is a map.

14 It is still the same map, Mr. President, of course.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We have another witness, you would say.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, we do not have

17 a colour map for everyone.

18 Q. Do you recognise part of Sarajevo on this map, in particular, the

19 area of Dobrinja and Alipasino Polje?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, with the assistance of the usher, who will

22 give you a pointer --

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. -- can you indicate on the document which will appear on the

25 screen --

Page 7883

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the map should be placed

2 on the ELMO, please. Thank you.

3 Q. Witness, can you please indicate to your right-hand side, the map

4 that is on your right-hand side, and indicate something for me.

5 Do you recognise this map as being a partial map of the town of

6 Sarajevo, including the neighbourhoods of Alipasino Polje and Dobrinja?

7 A. Yes, more or less.

8 Q. Thank you. Do you think you can identify the location of the

9 incident that we have been discussing?

10 A. You mean the spot where I was wounded?

11 Q. Yes. Exactly.

12 A. The map is not very clear but I can perhaps indicate the general

13 area approximately.

14 Q. Would you please use the pointer to indicate this spot? No, no,

15 on the map which is on your right side. I don't know whether the map can

16 be zoomed in so that we can clearly see the portion in question.

17 Witness, do you recognise the area?

18 A. The map, I am afraid, is not very clear. I tried to locate the

19 spot approximately.

20 Q. Yes. Could you just indicate the general area approximately where

21 it was?

22 A. Well, I can try.

23 Q. Please do.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Very well. You are now going to be given a pen, and would you

Page 7884












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7885

1 please mark the spot with a cross.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. It is actually a circle and not a cross, but it is all the same,

4 after all.

5 In this circle that you have just marked on the map, do you know

6 whether there were any military facilities inside this circle? Just tell

7 us "yes" or "no."

8 A. I don't think I can respond to your question with just "yes" or

9 "no."

10 Q. Because you don't know? If you don't know, just say so, please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: If you think you could answer the question in a

12 different way, not by just saying "yes" or "no," please give the answer

13 you have in mind.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that in this street,

15 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street, there was a not very large room which was

16 used for the Territorial Defence, I believe, just for the purposes of the

17 protection of the local residents of this street during the war events.

18 So to call it a military facility, no, I don't think that it was a

19 military facility of any importance.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

21 Q. What was the distance between this spot and the spot where the

22 accident occurred?

23 A. As I said, it took place in a small room which was a kind of

24 warehouse. This warehouse was located near the entrance at number 6.

25 Q. Very well. So what was the distance between the spot where the

Page 7886

1 accident occurred and this other location?

2 A. I don't know. Maybe 100 metres or so.

3 Q. Thank you very much for this answer.

4 To your knowledge, Witness, how far was this spot where the

5 incident occurred from the front line?

6 A. You mean from the separation line?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. I don't know exactly, but that was further away. In the street

9 where I lived at the time, there were only civilians who lived there.

10 Q. I am sorry to interrupt you, Witness, but this was not my

11 question. I have certain time limits.

12 What was the distance, do you know, from this location and the

13 separation line or the front line, if you know? If you don't know, just

14 say so.

15 A. No, I don't know.

16 Q. Thank you. Do you know if there was a tunnel in the vicinity of

17 this area?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You don't know or there was no such tunnel?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know if there was a restaurant called

22 "Sunce" in Dobrinja?

23 A. No.

24 Q. The same goes for the restaurant called "Stela"?

25 A. No.

Page 7887

1 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, we couldn't hear counsel. Could the

2 counsel repeat the question, please.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Does the name of Kazani ring a bell?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you. Witness, let us go back to Dobrinja proper. Do you

7 know where atomic shelters were located in Dobrinja?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether the atomic shelters were used by

10 the army?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You don't know?

13 A. The shelter was not used by anyone.

14 Q. How can you be so sure?

15 A. Because I know that it was not adequate. It was simply not

16 possible to use it as a shelter. The place was wet. There was a lot of

17 water inside and it was completely neglected.

18 Q. Where exactly was this atomic shelter located? Can you indicate

19 this on the map, please.

20 A. I will try. I think that most of these shelters were located at

21 various squares. As for my area, it was right above the street.

22 Q. Thank you very much, but can you please indicate on the map what

23 you know about the locations of these shelters.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Thank you. Were there several such shelters?

Page 7888

1 A. You mean where the shelters were?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. No, there was only this one which was not used.

4 Q. Very well. Would you mark the area with the letter "A," the

5 location which you just indicated.

6 A. I don't think I am able to give you the exact spot. I could

7 perhaps encircle the area.

8 Q. I am asking you this, Witness, because of the time limits. If you

9 can indicate it, please do so. If you cannot, just say so.

10 A. I am afraid the map is not clear enough for me to be able to

11 indicate the exact spot.

12 Q. Thank you very much, Witness, but that is the only map that we

13 have.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Just make a circle in the area where it was and then

15 put an "A" in it so that we know approximately where it was.

16 A. [Marks]

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Thank you, Witness. Since you are familiar with the relevant

19 events, can you indicate on this map the location of the separation line

20 on -- towards to the south of Dobrinja, south-west of Dobrinja, actually?

21 A. No. No, I cannot.

22 Q. If I tell you, sir, that the road that we see on the map and which

23 separates the area of Dobrinja from the airport, can we agree that

24 that was more or less the front line?

25 A. Are you referring to the road separating the airport from --

Page 7889

1 Q. I am thinking of the road which runs alongside this neighbourhood

2 and which separates the area of the airport from the Dobrinja

3 neighbourhood. It is the road which goes around the area of Bijelo Polje?

4 A. Oh, I see. I don't think that the line was there

5 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interfere, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I indicated

6 to you before that during cross-examination, if you touch new ground, so

7 if you are not examining the witness on issues that have been part of the

8 examination-in-chief, that usually leading questions would not be

9 permitted, similarly as to an examination-in-chief. Usually, I do not

10 mind that much if a leading question concerns something which is not in

11 dispute at all. But you know and I know why a leading question on this

12 very issue would not be the best way of getting the best information.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

14 will take that into consideration.

15 Q. I would like to move on to another series of questions.

16 Witness, was it possible for you to think that information that

17 was provided after the incident in which you were wounded -- was it

18 possible for you to think that this information concerning the number of

19 persons who died was false? What do you think about this?

20 A. You are referring to the incident that I mentioned in which one

21 person --

22 Q. Yes, that is right. That is right. The one in which you were

23 wounded.

24 A. When I said that I saw one person?

25 Q. The incident in which you yourself were wounded.

Page 7890

1 JUDGE ORIE: Your question is about information, information

2 provided by whom, to whom. What was the content of the information

3 because there is nothing known --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will get to that. I am

5 speaking about the information provided by the authorities about those who

6 disappeared, who were killed.

7 Mr. President, I am going to show a document to the witness. It

8 will be a lot clearer. Mr. President, I am going to distribute a document

9 which doesn't need to be translated, I don't think. The number is D104.

10 And it is not necessary to translate it because it is a list of names and

11 the witness will be able to read the heading of this document.

12 Q. Witness, could you read the heading of this list? Could you read

13 it to us, please?

14 A. "List of people who died in Dobrinja on the 4th of February

15 1994."

16 Q. Witness, does this relate -- regard your incident?

17 A. Yes, it does.

18 Q. Witness, could you please read what we can see under number

19 eight?

20 A. Here it appears that I died in the incident. I don't know what I

21 could say about this. This is so provocative, I simply don't know what to

22 say. This document just is not clear. And I think that two of the names

23 here are familiar. I know that these people died on that day.

24 Q. Witness, I can understand the fact that you are surprised because

25 one doesn't discover that one is reportedly dead when one is in very good

Page 7891

1 health.

2 Could you read what you can see under number nine. Could you

3 read what you see under number nine?

4 A. "A child whose identity is not known."

5 Q. Witness, were you ever familiar with the identity of this child

6 who is unknown?

7 A. I don't know who the person -- who the unidentified person is, but

8 I know that one of the girls who had died on that day, I know who she was,

9 but I can't see her name there. Perhaps they were thinking of her under

10 number nine here.

11 Q. Thank you for this answer.

12 Witness, you told us that you had spent this part of the war in

13 Dobrinja. Did you go to school?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Where did you go to school, please?

16 A. Well, in Dobrinja, we usually went to school in flats because in

17 our schools, the conditions for giving education were not existent.

18 Q. Witness, do you know whether the school buildings were used for

19 other purposes?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. Could you tell us -- could you tell us what the name of the school

22 was to which you went before the war?

23 A. The name of the school was Dusan Pajic Dasic.

24 Q. Witness, I know that you were young at the time of these events,

25 but do you know whether there were units or, rather, companies, whether

Page 7892

1 there were mortar units or mortar companies in Dobrinja?

2 A. I don't know anything about that. I wasn't a soldier. I was

3 just a child and I was only 11 years old at the time.

4 Q. I know that, Witness. Can I ask you another question: Was your

5 father in the army?

6 A. No, he wasn't.

7 Q. Were any members of your family in the army?

8 A. No one from my family was in the army. My father was ill, so that

9 no one was in the army.

10 Q. Do you know whether the BH army had any snipers?

11 A. I don't know anything about that.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have no other questions,

13 Mr. President. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the

15 witness?

16 MR. STAMP: One question.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

18 Q. That document that you were just handed by counsel, do you know

19 the origin of that document, where it came from?

20 A. I am not familiar with this document. I really don't know. It is

21 very unclear. There is no stamp on it or anything. My first and last

22 name is here. This is where they surprised me.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. STAMP: Nothing further, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.

Page 7893

1 I have a question not to the witness, but you asked the witness

2 where the document came from.

3 MR. STAMP: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I see that there is an ERN number. Is there any

5 explanation by the parties on what this document --

6 MR. STAMP: This is a document which we have in our possession

7 which was disclosed to the Defence and which we expect to call evidence to

8 explain.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So it is just to hear about the source of the

10 document?

11 MR. STAMP: Indeed. It is just to demonstrate that perhaps with

12 documents of this nature, there is no need to ask the witness questions

13 about it. Because there is not much he could say about it. I think the

14 Defence would know our --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It just tells us that there is a document on

16 which is written that this witness died in the incident.

17 MR. STAMP: Indeed.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is what it says at this very moment. But

19 we will hear more about the source of this document, that is what I

20 understand from the Prosecution. So then I have no further questions. So

21 you don't have to elaborate on that at this very moment.

22 Mr. Ljusa, you have answered all the questions by both Prosecution

23 and Defence. It is important for this Chamber to hear the answers to all

24 those question given by those who have been present during the times and

25 at the places which are part of this trial, so therefore, thank you very

Page 7894

1 much for coming to The Hague. I know it is a long distance and you still

2 have to travel back, but I wish you a good journey home again.

3 Thank you very much.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please lead the witness out of

6 the courtroom. Yes.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you guide us through the

9 documents.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3281B, videotape; Exhibit P2252, medical

11 documents in B/C/S; Exhibit P2252.1, English translation; Exhibit D103,

12 map marked by witness; Exhibit D104, list of people who died in Dobrinja

13 4 February, 1994, in B/C/S.

14 JUDGE ORIE: All these documents are admitted into evidence.

15 As I said yesterday, I hope that the way we proceeded during the

16 last few days was an encouraging experience for both parties.

17 Mr. Stamp, before adjourning, is there anything else you would

18 like to bring to the attention of the Chamber?

19 MR. STAMP: May I just quickly indicate to the Court that --


21 MR. STAMP: Exhibit P3678B is an exhibit composed of more than

22 what was shown in court, in that it was stopped -- before the entire video

23 was played it was stopped at the part where -- I think I have the wrong

24 exhibit number. Thanks very much. The exhibit number is P2381D. It was

25 stopped at the part where the witness Ljusa completed what he had to show.

Page 7895

1 On the next occasion when this Court sits, we expect to call the

2 witnesses Hava Spahic and Faha Spahic that we propose to take the Court

3 through the rest of the video.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We will see that at the occasion of one of the

5 next witnesses.

6 MR. STAMP: Indeed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, just to

8 clarify something. I can see that they speak about -- its mentions the

9 document P28. I am not sure that this is the document in question. This

10 should perhaps be verified for the sake of the transcript. P28 appears

11 on page 85, line 5.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I see -- I take it that whatever confusion there

13 might be at this very moment will be corrected. We know that it is

14 about a videotape played today and on which the witness Ljusa testified,

15 and there was only one video today.

16 Is there anything else the parties would like to raise at this

17 very moment?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, perhaps just to repeat

19 on behalf of Ms. Pilipovic, I would like to give -- she would like to

20 give you her kind regards and tell you that she regrets being absent.

21 JUDGE ORIE: That means that we will adjourn until the 6th of

22 May. Madam Registrar, we are sitting in the morning hours, if I am well

23 informed. That would mean that we will adjourn until the 6th of May at

24 9.00 in the morning, this same courtroom. And just as I wished everyone

25 a good Easter weekend some weeks ago, I wish for those for whom Easter is

Page 7896

1 still coming, a good Easter weekend as well.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

3 1.45, p.m., to be reconvened

4 on Monday, the 6th, day of May, 2002,

5 at 9.00 a.m.