1 Tuesday, 21 May 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, very much, Madam Registrar.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE ORIE: For the transcript, it is important to know that we
11 tried to start five minutes before. The case was then called and the
12 Prosecutor was asked whether the Prosecution was ready to resume the
13 examination-in-chief of the witness, Henneberry. But due to the failure
14 of the LiveNote, there was no transcript of this first effort, first try,
15 to start this morning.
16 So we restarted now, and may I remind you, Mr. Henneberry, that
17 you are still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave at the
18 beginning of your testimony.
19 THE WITNESS: I understand.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I
23 apologise. There is just one point, which is also a technical point. I
24 was informed at the end of last week that it would not be possible to
25 correct the transcript a posteriori, that is, that technically speaking,
1 what is going to be transcribed is what is going to be in the hearing and
2 not post factum. So, as I indicated, the technical modifications of the
3 transcript after the fact would not be possible. So, Mr. President, I do
4 not see any other possibility, Mr. President, except to intervene
5 immediately if there is a problem with the transcript. So this is a
6 purely technical matter, and I think that I had it explained clearly to me
7 on Thursday, the time of the last hearing. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I understand it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if
9 there are some mistakes in the transcript, they will be corrected
10 overnight. If, however, a part is failing, then, of course, we should
11 take care that the failing part is repeated one way or the other and
12 because they cannot correct something that is not in the transcript, but
13 if there is something in the transcript, it is a matter of names or just a
14 matter of one or two words which appear not in the correct way in the
15 transcript, that usually can be corrected.
16 So if we keep this in the back of our mind and, of course, serious
17 problems with the transcript could be reported immediately so that we
18 could take the appropriate measures to secure that the transcript is
19 finally correct.
20 Mr. Ierace.
21 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 WITNESS: PATRICK HENNEBERRY [Resumed]
23 Examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Henneberry.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. Last Thursday, I asked you whether you complained to senior
2 officers of the SRK about the indiscriminate fire that you witnessed and
3 other military observers witnessed and conveyed to you. You told us that
4 you complained indeed to a number of senior officers, a gentleman who
5 claimed to be your liaison officer, someone by the name of Misa, Major
6 Indjic, and you said, "At least on one occasion, I made the same complaint
7 to General Galic."
8 Could you tell us, firstly, how many times did you meet General
10 A. I can't say exactly, but it was at least three times and I
11 suspect, based on my notes, several more times than three.
12 Q. Do you remember the occasion or occasions on which you made those
13 complaints to him?
14 A. One for sure was on -- I shouldn't say "for sure," but to the best
15 of my recollection, was on the 16th of December, prior to the official
16 start of our meeting. The reason for our meeting was to discuss a
17 corridor to allow civilians to leave Sarajevo. And I am fairly certain -
18 I can't say for 100 per cent certainty but fairly certain - that prior to
19 that meeting, I again complained that the indiscriminate shelling
21 The other occasions when I met him, shelling was a frequent
22 discussion but I cannot say specifically what was discussed on all of
23 those occasions.
24 Q. Last Thursday, you also told us these words: "The ultimate goal
25 as explained by Indjic and indeed General Galic was to either destroy the
1 city or rid it of Muslims."
2 What was the occasion on which General Galic said that?
3 A. That would have been the 16th December meeting. That meeting in
4 fact is the first one I have clearly listed in my notes, although there
5 are references to other meetings I had with him, and I recall that being a
6 very significant meeting.
7 Q. Were you surprised -- what was your reaction when he said that to
9 A. As a soldier, I realised, having been there for several months,
10 that it was beyond the realm of the feasible for the Serbian forces to be
11 able to destroy the city. To damage it significantly, of course, but to
12 actually destroy the city, that was not feasible for them, given their
13 equipment and ammunition. As far as the comment about ridding the city of
14 Muslims, that was the first time I had personally heard a very senior
15 officer state that, and while I can't claim to be shocked, as I heard that
16 before, it was dismaying that that statement would be made in advance of
17 other negotiations and with the vehemence or certainty that it was given,
18 as I recall.
19 Q. I appreciate it was some time ago, but to the best of your
20 recollection, can you tell us what the words were approximately that you
21 used when you made your complaint to him about indiscriminate fire?
22 A. If I may --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry. I believe that I
25 have to intervene, albeit a little tardily. This is a possible mistake in
1 the French, and I am just looking. I just saw it in the text, we are
2 talking about a very senior official, in singular, and I believe that in
3 the French transcript it was translated as being a plural. There is a
4 huge difference, of course, because we are talking about one person, not
5 about a group of senior officers.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think this is a translation -- what I
7 suspect to be a translation problem and that could be --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Mr. President,
9 but the meaning is different. That's why I'm intervening. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you perhaps indicate the line where we actually
11 had the --
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] 4.10. I don't have it on my
13 -- on my screen any more. It is 4.10, Mr. President. I believe that it
14 was interpreted as plural in the French transcript. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I am just trying to find the spot. I can't detect it
16 on page 4, line 10.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Page 4.10, that is what I
18 believe. [In English] "I had personally heard a very senior official
19 state that," and so on.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see it. It is page 4 line 10. In English, it
21 is the -- it is not a plural, and as far as I understand, it was
22 translated into plural.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
24 MR. IERACE:
25 Q. I'll repeat the question, Mr. Henneberry. I appreciate it was
1 some time ago, but to the best of your recollection, can you tell us what
2 the words were approximately that you used when you made your complaint to
3 General Galic about indiscriminate fire?
4 A. The complaint became a standard complaint for many meetings with
5 senior officials or commanders and it would have been in the context of,
6 "The shelling continues and the targets in the city," or the "rounds,"
7 rather, "landing in the city are not always hitting military targets,"
8 words to that effect. I can't state specifically to General Galic, but
9 that was the standard that we used.
10 Q. In the same vein, can you tell us approximately, or at least to
11 the best of your recollection, what the words were that he used in
13 A. No, sir, I can't.
14 Q. Was it in response to that statement from you that he said the
15 ultimate goal was to either destroy the city or rid it of Muslims?
16 A. No, sir. That response was given during the initial stages of the
17 meeting at which the senior military observer for the entire Sarajevo was
18 also present -- or present rather, Lieutenant-Colonel Richard Mole, from
19 the British forces. And the issue was opening a corridor. General
20 Galic, when that desire was offered by Colonel Mole and myself, launched
21 into a rhetoric that had become fairly standard in that the Muslims were
22 the aggressors, et cetera, et cetera, as we heard in fact from both sides
23 for months, and then his response was: The ultimate goal is to destroy
24 the city and/or rid it of Muslims.
25 Q. What was his response to your statement that -- to the effect that
1 there were shells landing in the city, not on military targets or not on
2 military objects?
3 A. That statement, again given frequently, was given most often -
4 most often - met with indifference and/or comment that it is not possible
5 to identify all targets because the Muslim forces in the city moved, and
6 often again indifference as if it simply didn't matter.
7 Q. Did you form any view as to the quality of the command structure
8 in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. What was that view?
11 A. Generally, for the most part and for most of the time, there was a
12 recognisable and effective military hierarchy structure with the corps
13 commander at the top, his staff advising him, various levels of command
14 underneath that down to the section or squad level, section or squad being
15 a handful of men. And the hierarchy was recognisable and, in effect,
16 there were occasional lapses but, again, usually the command structure was
18 Q. Did you form any view of General Galic as to his professionalism
19 or otherwise?
20 A. Yes, sir. It was perhaps --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There will be a gap in the
23 French transcript. There was a problem with the French interpreter and I
24 would like to ask the witness, with your leave, to repeat what he said so
25 that the French interpreter can repeat the words.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the response on the question, "Did you form
2 any view as to the quality of the command structure of the Sarajevo
3 Romanija Corps?"
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I think so. What was
5 not interpreted started with "and in effect."
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please, Mr. Henneberry, repeat the last
7 portion of your response which started with -- I read from the
8 transcript: "... down to the squad level section or squad being a handful
9 of men. And the hierarchy was recognisable and in effect..."
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. There were occasional lapses in the
11 hierarchy but usually the command structure was working.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please, Mr. Ierace, proceed.
13 MR. IERACE:
14 Q. Did you form any view of General Galic as to his professionalism?
15 A. I did, sir. And after meeting with General Galic and talking
16 with his staff, it was difficult and perhaps disturbing to reconcile that
17 General Galic was well-respected and a very intelligent military man.
18 There was no doubt of that. He had a commanding presence. He was
19 respected for his military abilities and knowledge by his staff and by
20 the military observers.
21 The disturbing part of that was his focus on destroying the city
22 or ridding it of Muslims, which was not in accordance with recognisable
23 rules of conflict, rules of armed conflict. It, in fact, to be honest,
24 was disturbing and somewhat scary.
25 Q. What was that? Could you spell that out.
1 A. I would have to hearken back to the Nuremberg trials, where very
2 intelligent men made decisions that were illegal and against the law and
3 caused the death of civilians and military. And I couldn't help but
4 thinking that General Galic, again being an intelligent military man with
5 the respect of all, had the power within him to rid the city of the
6 Muslims mostly, and knowing what was inside the city, I recognised and
7 realised that that meant the death of a lot of innocents. Innocents,
8 which I categorise as the young, the elderly, and the noncombatants, and
9 he was determined to do that.
10 Q. What other meetings do you recollect that this stage that you had
11 with General Galic, apart from the 16th of December, 1992?
12 A. There was one in later December. I could find an exact date in
13 my notes, if you would like, but it was in late December. There was an
14 issue of the United Nations aircraft flying outside of the authorised or
15 recognised flight path leading into Sarajevo, especially on approach.
16 There was a very definite flight path. I received the flight path on -- a
17 diagram of the flight path on the map and saw personally that indeed the
18 aircraft weren't always following that flight path. They weren't out by
19 much, but they were out enough to cause some concern.
20 The Serbian forces had threatened - indeed, I am told the Muslim
21 forces as well - had threatened to shoot down any one aircraft that would
22 not remain within the flight path boundaries. When I saw the difference
23 on the map with what was generally known and generally agreed to and
24 indeed being flown by the pilots, I was concerned that there would be a
25 shoot-down, and that would be tragic for all. And I wanted to talk to
1 General Galic, or did talk to General Galic and his staff about the
2 differences. They were never reconciled formally in the sense that the
3 map was not changed, the aircraft continued to fly their normal path which
4 was outside of that which was drawn on the map, but there was no
5 shoot-down either, not while I was there. There was shooting, aircraft
6 were hit, but none were taken down.
7 Q. Could you please consult your notes so as to check the date?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the French
10 interpretation did not have the expression "and his staff." What the
11 witness said is exactly that and it does not appear in the French
12 transcript. Thank you.
13 Mr. President, the French booth is asking me to communicate the
14 message to you. The witness is asked to speak more slowly so that the
15 French booth can interpret everything efficiently in its entirety. Thank
16 you very much.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Henneberry, if the interpreters failed to
18 translate a few words, it is usually due to the speed of speech. So may I
19 ask you to slow down.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think the correction of Mr. Piletta-Zanin is about
22 page 9, line 21, where in the English text, it says, "or did talk to
23 General Galic and his staff about differences."
24 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I found that in my notes, if you'd like.
1 MR. IERACE:
2 Q. Yes. What was the date?
3 A. The 26th December, and if I may clarify, it doesn't state
4 specifically that I did meet with him. Please acknowledge that at this
5 point my notes were -- the situation was the same most days; they're
6 not detailed but specifically and verbatim: "Got..."
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak more slowly, please.
8 THE WITNESS: "Got air flight corridor agreement. Air operations
9 agreement is different. No one seems concerned. Need to brief Galic and
10 local commander at Lima 2." And given that on the 27th of December, the
11 following day, it was a quiet day, I can say with some certainty that I
12 probably met with him on the 26th or 27th or shortly thereafter.
13 MR. IERACE:
14 Q. Thank you for that.
15 Do you recollect at this stage any specific meetings with him
16 after that?
17 A. I do not recollect specific meetings, no, sir.
18 Q. How many times do you think you met with him altogether,
20 A. I would estimate 10 or 11.
21 Q. Mr. Henneberry, you have told us that you made observations from
22 various Lima positions, had conversations with local commanders and senior
23 subordinates of General Galic, where you raised concern about
24 indiscriminate fire. You have told us that you met with General Galic on
25 10 or 11 occasions and you have -- you come to this experience with a
1 military background.
2 What was your state of mind as to whether or not General Galic had
3 knowledge of the indiscriminate firing of shells into Sarajevo?
4 A. I have no doubt that he was aware of that.
5 Q. You have told us that Major Indjic intimated to you that indeed it
6 was part of a corps plan. Based on your observations as outlined by me in
7 my previous question, what view, if any, do you have as to whether the
8 indiscriminate fire was part of a corps plan?
9 A. I am personally certain of that and that it was for
10 well-calculated psychological reasons to have a psychological impact on
11 the local populous.
12 Q. Would you tell us a little more of what that psychological impact
13 objective was, in your opinion?
14 A. To terrorise the local civilians and Muslim forces, to make them
15 on edge all the time, causing distress, lack of sleep, lack of will
16 especially to carry on, lack of support for the Muslim cause, if I may use
17 that, a standard psychological response in the sense of psychological
19 Q. Did you have occasion from mid-September until the end of your
20 tenure there to travel around the city itself, in other words, on the
21 Bosnian government side of the confrontation lines?
22 A. Yes, sir, occasionally touring with the UNMOs at the PTT and
23 during utility repair missions.
24 Q. Did you make any observations of the psychological state of the
25 civilians of Sarajevo when you did those things?
1 A. Yes. On the civilian side, the impact of the psychological
2 warfare application was working. They were indeed terrorised and on
4 Q. Did any civilians say anything to you in that regard which you
5 recollect at this stage?
6 A. I spoke to so many of them, I can't recall specifically.
7 Q. Did you make any observations as to their will to live? [Realtime
8 transcript read in error "leave"]
9 A. In the sense that their physical appearance, their emotional
10 state, by way of body language and tone of voice and tears, it was obvious
11 that they were distraught and wanted the situation to end. As far as will
12 to live, I can't comment.
13 Q. When civilians moved about the city in particular at times and in
14 places where there was not a ceasefire, typically, did they do so by
15 walking or by running?
16 A. By running.
17 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 MR. IERACE: Transcript correction, Mr. President, page 13, line 3
20 of the English transcript, should read "will to live," that is l-i-v-e,
21 rather than "will to leave."
22 Q. Mr. Henneberry, you told us Thursday that you also complained
23 about indiscriminate fire to approximately 8 or 9 other people on the
24 second floor of Lukavica barracks - or Lukavica headquarters, I should say
25 - 8 or 9 people on the second floor of senior rank. I don't recall their
1 names or positions. When you say the second floor, you have told us that
2 there was a flight of stairs going up from the ground level to General
3 Galic's office and the operations room and also some restricted areas.
4 Do you mean on that level or a different level?
5 A. I mean on that level, sir.
6 Q. Were any of these people uniformed, typically?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Approximately how many individuals, based on your observations,
9 had offices on that level?
10 A. I couldn't even --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry, but this is the
13 French transcript again. I am having interpreted "individuals by
14 officers" which is not, of course, the same thing with regards to the
15 question asked.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I see in the --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Page 4 -- 14, line 4.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Transcript reads "approximately how many individuals,
19 based on your observations, had offices on that level?"
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the French transcript
21 interpreted how many "officers," which is not at all the same meaning.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I now hear that a very precise translation is
23 given by the French booth.
24 So please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
25 THE WITNESS: With regard to your question, I couldn't estimate
1 what was behind the restricted door. As for the other officers, I could
2 safely say I saw between 8 to 15 individuals at varying times.
3 MR. IERACE:
4 Q. What were the range of responses, if any, from these 8 or 9
5 officers to your complaint about indiscriminate fire?
6 A. I recall they ranged from sincere concern to outright laughter.
7 Q. I come to that response of "sincere concern." Throughout your
8 time at Lukavica and at various Lima positions, did you come across any
9 individuals who struck you as being genuinely concerned about the
10 indiscriminate fire?
11 A. Yes, sir. Off the top of my head, I can think of two immediately
12 and, in fact, three or four as I think of it, that were concerned, but
13 they did continue with the shelling. They, in two cases, were direct --
14 directly in command of heavy weapons, mortars, anti-aircraft, artillery,
15 et cetera, and in one case was in direct command of most likely a brigade
16 and its assets, its personnel and equipment.
17 Q. In relation to those three individuals, did their concern become
18 apparent to you through conversation with them or by some other means?
19 A. Conversation, sir.
20 Q. Did any of the three expressly state to you that they were
21 troubled by the indiscriminate fire, or words to that effect?
22 A. Words to that effect, yes, and also their actions, their body
24 Q. Having regard to the command positions of the three of them and
25 given that they were expressing concern or at least conveying concern to
1 you, it would seem from your answers that their concern was in relation to
2 orders which they were receiving from above and passing on to
3 subordinates. Is that a correct assessment of your evidence?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I did
6 not want to interrupt my learned colleague but I have to do it because
7 this question is referring to the previous one, and the previous one
8 seemed to me a leading question. When we ask the question -- when the
9 question is asked directly to know -- to confirm that they would have
10 mentioned that they were troubled by the shooting, the random shooting,
11 something was done which should not be done within the framework of this
12 question. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Mr. Ierace, do you want to respond?
15 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The question is constructed so
16 as to clarify from the witness's previous few answers whether what appears
17 to be an obvious conclusion is, in fact, correct. In other words, it is a
18 question which, although in leading form, seeks to clarify.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied since it is already the
20 testimony of this witness in page 15, line 4 and 5 - at least the answer
21 to the question which we find on page 15, line 4 and 5 - where the witness
22 confirms the concern about indiscriminate fire. So it really is a request
23 for further clarification.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE:
1 Q. Mr. Henneberry, I can either repeat the question or you can read
2 it on the screen in front of you before it disappears, at page 15, line
4 A. Yes, sir, I can read it.
5 I believe their concern was in two parts. One was, in my opinion,
6 the orders that were receiving. Again, I have no doubt there was a
7 broader corps plan based on normal military application and hierarchy and
8 also their personal actions with regard to implementing -- correction,
9 developing and implementing the tactical plan that followed from the corps
10 operational plan.
11 Q. Do you recollect at this stage the positions of the commanders of
12 the heavy artillery and mortars?
13 A. The ones who were concerned, sir?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Yes, sir. Lima 3, Lima 10, while it was active, and what I
16 believe to be a brigade commander in Vogosca.
17 Q. In relation to Vogosca, on any occasion, did you actually observe
18 civilian houses being hit by artillery or mortars or anti-aircraft fire?
19 A. Dozens and dozens of times, sir.
20 Q. On those occasions, where was the source of fire?
21 A. The source was the weapons monitored from Lima 11 and Lima 12.
22 Q. How many of those occasions were after mid-September 1992?
23 A. Again, sir, dozens and dozens.
24 Q. In relation to Lima 3, did you ever observe any fire being
25 directed to what appeared to be civilian areas in Otes?
1 A. From Lima 3, sir?
2 Q. Yes. While you were at Lima 3.
3 A. No, sir, unless my recollection on the position is incorrect.
4 Lima 3 fired almost daily into Rajlovac.
5 Q. From any position, did you observe artillery fire from Serb
6 positions impacting on civilian areas in Otes?
7 A. Yes, sir. I witnessed that the Otes offensive in fact from the
8 Lima 3 position as it overlooked the valley, the plains, in which Otes
9 sat, the fire coming into Otes was some of the most intense I had seen.
10 As for observing the weapons firing into them, no, but it was a Serb
11 offensive to take Otes, which was successful.
12 Q. Indeed, was that in early December, 1992, that that offensive took
14 A. I believe so, sir, and I could again find the exact date, if you
15 would like.
16 Q. I don't think we require the exact date for that. Thank you
18 In relation to the brigade commander, do you recall the name of
19 the brigade?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. Were any of these observations made by you in relation to the
22 three officers before September, that is mid-September 1992, or were they
23 all after that date?
24 A. They were all after that date, sir.
25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be shown
1 some photographs. Perhaps -- I think there is a bundle which bears the
2 Exhibit number P3449.
3 Q. Mr. Henneberry, first of all, can you count the photographs of the
4 bundle and tell me what the number is, how many there are, in other words?
5 A. I have five, sir.
6 Q. Would you place the first of those photographs, with the
7 assistance of the court usher, on the machine to your right and perhaps --
8 yes, we are zooming back now. That photograph bears the last four numbers
10 Could you tell us, please, what it shows.
11 A. Yes, sir. This is one of the positions, a view from one of the
12 positions at Lima 7. What is not obvious and, indeed, is not obvious from
13 the original picture but is readable, is in this area here is the city of
14 Sarajevo. This happened to be a misty, foggy day, and this is one of the
15 weapons on the position during the occasion of a BBC film crew
17 Q. For the benefit of the transcript, Mr. Henneberry, I think you
18 pointed to an area in the centre of the photograph, immediately above the
19 dark hill line where there appears to be a white area with a little
20 detail; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, sir, and if I had a map I could tell you the direction and
22 whatnot, if you desire.
23 Q. That is fine. In amongst the remaining photographs, is there
24 another photograph showing Lima 7 position? Please place that on the
1 Thank you. This is a photograph which in the bottom right-hand
2 corner shows the numbers 92, then 1, then 25.
3 Do you appear in this photograph?
4 A. I do, sir. I am the individual with the Canadian flag on the
5 flack jacket.
6 Q. Are you also wearing a blue helmet?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. What did the blue helmet signify, if anything?
9 A. That was the recognisable colour for United Nations.
10 Q. What size artillery piece appears in the photograph, if you
11 recollect it?
12 A. One of two: It may be a 100 millimetre anti-tank gun or it may
13 be a light artillery piece, a light Howitzer. I can't recollect
15 Q. All right. Now, on the back of that photograph, I think there is
16 some handwriting which has blurred. Did you place that handwriting there?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Since it is blurred, are you able to read it to us?
19 A. Yes. And this confirms the weapon as a 100 milimetre anti-tank
20 gun, as we were told it was.
21 Q. All right. Reading slowly, could you please read it out?
22 A. "Me on a Serbian position in the" -- excuse me. It appears to be
23 "hills." I am sorry, I have to read from the original here.
24 Q. You have the original?
25 A. No, this one here. It's blurred on my screen. "On the eastern
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 edge of Sarajevo. In August and September, 1992, we observers lived in a
2 tent and bunkers on this position. "After September," correction: "After
3 several attacks, we moved to a house" something "5 kilometres away."
4 Q. Is that word something perhaps "about"?
5 A. Yes, sir, it is, "about five kilometres away." The next paragraph
6 or line is, "BBC film crew on position." Then the next line: "Weapon is
7 a 100 millimetre anti-tank gun, a" -- excuse me for a moment. "... common
8 weapon used against bunkers houses and..." I can't read the other words.
9 One moment, please. The third line from the bottom starts: "Sarajevo is
10 in the west in the middle of the picture. January 1993" something "date
11 in lower right-hand corner." And I can tell you now that date is
12 obviously incorrect. I simply didn't know how to set my camera at that
14 Q. All right.
15 Would you now please place on the machine, I think a photograph
16 which shows a soldier holding a cartridge and with his left elbow resting
17 on some military equipment. I think that bears the handwritten number,
18 last four numbers 9288.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, before we please proceed, you identified
20 the photograph as having in the bottom right-hand corner 92/1/25, but
21 perhaps due to the difficulties, the witness hadn't put the right date.
22 We have other photographs of similar positions, I presume, also bearing in
23 the lower right-hand corner 92/1/25, so perhaps we should perhaps refer to
24 the ERN number on the back of that photograph which is 01039092.
25 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Do you -- first of all, did you take this photograph?
2 A. It was taken with my camera, but I did not take it, sir.
3 Q. All right. And indeed, how can you tell that?
4 A. The local people did not have cameras and film, and this picture
5 was, amongst others, developed with film from my camera.
6 Q. Do you appear in this photograph?
7 A. Yes, sir. I am the soldier holding the cartridge.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Are we looking at the wrong picture on the ELMO, Mr.
10 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President. That is the correct photograph.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
12 MR. IERACE:
13 Q. What is the gun on which you are leaning?
14 A. It is a twin barreled 30 millimetre Praga mobile anti-aircraft
16 Q. What is the approximate calibre of the round you are holding?
17 A. I believe it is 30 millimetres.
18 Q. Whereabouts was the photograph taken?
19 A. Lima 2.
20 Q. Did you ever see that gun or a gun similar to it firing?
21 A. Yes, sir, though I can't tell you specifically where. I say "yes"
22 because I personally saw all weapons we have accounted for firing at one
23 time or another.
24 Q. Did you ever see that gun or one like it firing into the city?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I take it that that is the right picture
2 on the ELMO, since there is another picture of what seems to be this
3 witness having his hand on the --
4 MR. IERACE: Shell.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- shell, as well. Perhaps we should indicate it.
6 The testimony was about the picture with ERN number 0103 and then 9088.
7 Since it also bears the same date as the other picture with the shell on
9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I had thought I had stated
10 that number at the outset.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I apologise.
12 MR. IERACE: I may not, Mr. President. I thought I did.
13 Q. Would you please now place the photograph on the ELMO which shows
14 you with your right hand at the tip of the round, and for the record, this
15 is ERN number 01039087.
16 Is that you in the photograph?
17 A. Yes, sir, in the blue beret.
18 Q. What is the weapon on which you are seated?
19 A. That is a towed 32 barrel multiple rocket launcher.
20 Q. Whereabouts was the photograph taken?
21 A. Lima 2.
22 Q. When was it taken too, the best of your recollection?
23 A. This particular picture was likely taken in August.
24 Q. Of 1992?
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. Whilst you were on the Lima side of the confrontation lines, did
2 you ever observe the use of multiple rocket launchers?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. When was the first time that you did that?
5 A. Probably in September. I can't say specifically.
6 Q. What happened on that occasion?
7 A. On the occasion I am thinking of, I was on position Lima 7 and was
8 observing fire from the positions being monitored from that site - there
9 were five of them - firing into the city. I turned around 180 degrees
10 facing away from the city looking, I believe, to the east and observed
11 some kilometres away a rapid twinkling of lights on a hill. I realised
12 that it was rockets firing and, indeed, shortly thereafter, rockets went
13 over our position at low height relative to us and somewhat beside us and
14 landed in the city.
15 Q. What type of weapon is a multiple rocket system?
16 A. It is what is known as an area weapon, if I may differentiate,
17 whereas a large calibre gun such as a sniper rifle or the Praga vehicle we
18 saw earlier --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry, again I have to
21 interrupt, but I hear in the French interpretation that this is an air
22 weapon. I don't think that was the witness's answer. Any weapon is not
23 an air weapon, an aircraft weapon.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is my recollection that the witness said it
25 was an "area" weapon, which is not the same as an air weapon. So I take
1 it that it is now properly translated into French.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE:
4 Q. Mr. Henneberry, you will see the first part of your answer on the
5 screen at page 24, line 9, commencing with the words, "It is what is known
6 as an area weapon, if I may differentiate, whereas a large calibre gun
7 such as a sniper rifle or the Praga vehicle we saw earlier." First of
8 all, was that correct? Is that what you said?
9 A. I believe so, sir. I don't have it on my screen but that was my
11 Q. Did you mean a large calibre gun as a sniper rifle?
12 A. Yes, sir. Some sniper rifles can have a large caliber.
13 Q. All right. Please continue.
14 A. Or the Praga gun, when fired, will hit a pinpoint target, a small
15 target, literally a couple of inches around. This multiple barrel rocket
16 launcher is designed to have a spread pattern of tens of metres, if not
17 hundreds of metres, depending on the type, when the shells land on the
18 ground. It is not possible to fire the weapon and have the shells land in
19 a very small area. They spread out in flight and then land over literally
20 up to a kilometre square.
21 Q. Are they designed so that the rockets all land at the same instant
22 or at different times?
23 A. They can -- generally at different times, they can be fired. The
24 rockets can be fired individually in banks such as eight across or rapidly
25 one after another.
1 Q. If they are fired in banks, is the intention that they detonate
3 A. Close together, yes, sir.
4 Q. Did you see where in the city on that occasion the rockets landed?
5 A. I can't say specifically. They simply landed in the city.
6 Q. Did you -- first of all, you said that you thought that was
8 Perhaps with the leave of the Defence, with the agreement of the
9 Defence, Mr. President, since it is in the interests, I could say
10 this to the witness: In your statement you said in relation to that
11 occasion, these words, "On one occasion, on 23 August, 1992, which I
12 recorded in my diary."
13 Does it follow from those words that the incident was on the 23rd
14 of August 1992?
15 A. May I have a quick look at my diary?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Yes, sir, you are correct. The incident I just described happened
18 on 23 August.
19 Q. Did you observe multiple rocket launchers being used on other
20 occasions after that?
21 A. Yes, sir. On one of the gun sites, gun positions, monitored from
22 Lima 10 and Lima 11, the sighting of those positions were such that we
23 couldn't see into the centre of the town, so although the weapons were
24 fired and reports from town reported -- the city rather, reported shells
25 dropping, I did not see where the shells landed.
1 Q. Were you able to determine at what command level the multiple
2 rocket launchers were positioned?
3 A. The rocket -- the launcher in the picture was at a brigade
4 headquarters. It may or may not have been used by the brigade at the
5 brigade commander's discretion, however, these types of weapons are often
6 gathered, collected, in significant numbers and fired based on a larger
7 plan. Depending on the numbers and the plan, that could be at brigade
8 level or higher.
9 Q. How valuable a corps asset is a multiple rocket launcher compared
10 to, say, a field gun?
11 A. Very valuable. It has a much more devastating effect and a much
12 more -- can be fired much more easily to a target area than a number of
13 individual pieces, such as artillery.
14 Q. How appropriate would its use be in an urban setting in terms of
15 areas where there are civilians and military together?
16 A. Inappropriate. If for no other reason than, again, the spread
17 pattern can be a kilometre or more, if there are more weapons, as well as
18 the, if I may use the word topography, the height of the buildings would
19 cause some of the shells to strike buildings; others to go over them. It
20 would be impossible to have control of the area where the rockets would
21 land -- or to predict, rather, not have control, but predict, where the
22 rockets would land.
23 Q. Did you ever see any sniper rifles, and by that I mean rifles
24 which appeared to you to have a dedicated sniping purpose? Professional
25 sniping rifles, I should say.
1 A. Yes, sir. A Draganov sniper rifle that was based at position Lima
3 Q. What view, if any, was afforded from that position, that is the
4 particular position where you saw the rifle, of the city?
5 A. The -- that position, that sniper rifle position, was amongst
6 other weapons, all of which could see into houses on the outskirts, I
7 believe the eastern -- outskirts at the eastern edge of the city, homes
8 occupied by civilians.
9 Q. Did you form a view as to whether that particular rifle was
10 attached to a particular soldiers?
11 A. Yes, sir. When that rifle was discussed, it was with some
12 reverence that the soldiers on the position spoke of its lethality and the
13 skill of the user.
14 Q. Do you know whether or not the user was permanently at that
15 position or whether he was deployed elsewhere as well?
16 A. He was also deployed elsewhere.
17 Q. Do you know what the command structure was in relation to that
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Whilst at Lukavica barracks, did you ever hear outgoing rifle
22 A. Yes, sir. Dozens, perhaps hundreds of times.
23 Q. Are you aware as to whether there were sniper positions within
24 Lukavica barracks after mid-September 1992?
25 A. There were positions for a variety of weapons and certainty
1 positions that would be appropriate for sniper use.
2 Q. Did you see any heavy artillery weaponry at Lukavica barracks
3 after mid-September 1992?
4 A. Tanks, and I believe anti-aircraft weapons, but frankly, I am a
5 little fuzzy on the anti-aircraft part.
6 Q. Incidently, in relation to your observations of the sniper with
7 the Draganov, were those observations made before or after mid-September
8 1992 or both?
9 A. Both, sir.
10 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President. Mr. President, that
11 concludes the examination-in-chief.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
13 We could either start the cross-examination at this very moment
14 and interrupt it after 10 minutes or have an early break until 10 minutes
15 to 11.00. Is there any preference as far as the --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
17 Mr. President. I think it would be good to have a break now, also,
18 because, unfortunately, we have not yet received full translations of the
19 diary of the witness and the reason was -- is that this was the period
20 prior to the indictment period. But since we are talking about a
21 systematic plan and this could be problematic for the Defence because
22 Ms. Pilipovic and myself would like to cross-examine. Thank you very
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will adjourn until 10 minutes to 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m
1 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving you the opportunity to cross-examine
3 the witness, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I would like to address one little issue
4 with Mr. Ierace. We received a report of Dr. Kovac. Attached to the
5 pictures were some text and I almost hate to use the word "illegible" but,
6 to some extent, it is very badly legible.
7 MR. IERACE: I suspect, Mr. President, from the copy I have seen,
8 that it was probably a poor photocopy.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know by what it was caused by, whether it was
10 the type of printer used. If you could take care of that.
11 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. So
14 we mentioned some of these problems with translation, and Ms. Pilipovic
15 will also cross-examine after me.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. I will interrogate you in French, if you don't mind. First of
20 all, a general question: In your diary, I believe that's what you have
21 before you, the notebook where you wrote notes down during your stay in
22 Sarajevo. Is that what is before you?
23 A. There are two things, sir. One is a verbatim typed copy of a
24 written diary, and this brown notebook fills in some detail and/or was --
25 but was primarily my book.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone counsel, please. Microphone.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
3 Q. If I can be allowed to interrupt you, Witness, this is only in
4 order to gain time. So if I am interrupting you, this is not because I
5 am being rude, but just trying to gain time. Thank you.
6 Now, sir, I would like to start by asking you to tell us what you
7 were before, your background. Before you joined the army, what was your
9 A. I attended school in the United States and joined the military
10 right out of high school in 1979.
11 Q. What do you mean by "high school"? Could you be more precise,
13 A. Yes, sir. Grade 12. The primarily school's from kindergarten and
14 the grades 1 through 12. And I joined actually one year after high
15 school. I was waiting a year, working in the United States.
16 Q. What were your school results, if you can categorize them, in
17 terms of were you good, average, very good?
18 A. The last two years, I grew up and had well above average marks.
19 Prior to that, no, I was not a good student.
20 Q. So could you perhaps define what kind of student were you, if you
21 said you were not a good student? What kind of student were you?
22 A. I paid more attention to athletics than my studies, and in the
23 last two years, I found a better balance, athletics and studies in the
24 last two years.
25 Q. Sir, did you think of doing anything else apart from the army or
1 was that a door that was suddenly opened just like that?
2 A. I considered three careers: The army, the Royal Canadian Mounted
3 Police, or joining the national park service. But when I reviewed all of
4 them, I decided the army was best for me.
5 Q. Very well, thank you. Sir, I read with a great deal of interest
6 your diary that you wrote in every day, and I am referring to the diary
7 where you wrote that during this period you became a father. Do you see
8 what I am referring to?
9 A. Yes, sir, I did.
10 Q. Sir, am I mistaken in saying that this diary was a kind of
11 confidant for you, during this period, that you confided in this diary?
12 A. That is correct, sir.
13 Q. Sir, is it exact that we can understand it as such that in this
14 diary you wrote down all important events on a personal level, as well as
15 the professional level? And what I mean, you also wrote down events that
16 personally affected you?
17 A. For the first two to three months, yes, sir, but then the routine
18 was so common that I would go several days without writing in it. But,
19 yes, personal ideas and professional.
20 Q. So we can see effectively, sir, that there are moments where there
21 are no entries in this diary, that is correct. But as far as the rest of
22 the time is concerned, we can see that what you were particularly touched
23 by or what you were affected by, that was written down in this diary; is
24 that correct?
25 A. In the written diary and the video diary, that I did, yes, sir.
1 Q. Thank you for your answer. Sir, I would like to ask you to take a
2 document before you. This is Prosecution Exhibit 646.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order not
4 to have too many documents, the Defence has decided to just read some
5 passages, referring to the dates every time, and I would like to ask this
6 witness just to answer in a word whether this is exactly what is written
7 in the document that you edited yourself. Now I would like to make a
8 point that all three booths have these documents before them which would
9 facilitate matters.
10 Q. Now, sir, I would be very grateful if you could just take this
11 document that you have before you, please, and we are going directly, if
12 you don't mind, to page 4, 4 out of 29.
13 A. I am sorry, sir. I have a different document. I have my
14 original diary here that is not numbered. It starts earlier.
15 Q. [In English] How about if I give you the dates, is that okay?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Okay, I will do so. [Interpretation] 2nd of August, please, second
18 line, and I am reading: [In English] "And out continues," correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, to gain time, you can just say whether it is
21 correct or not in this manner we can proceed more quickly.
22 On date of 4th of August, I am reading the following:
23 [In English] "Muslim funeral shelled. News blame Serbs, I am not sure.
24 Both sides continue shelling each other." [Interpretation] Is this
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Date 6th of August. [In English] Last night for me 2000 Muslims
3 attack Hadzici." [Interpretation] Is this correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Thank you. Page 8th of August, sir. I am reading:
6 [In English] "Serbs hit own position with 40 millimetres anti-air.
7 Shelling was definitely a mistake as they were running a target."
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: For the second time in reading out the passages, my
12 friend has avoided reading some words or sentences inter-dispersed with
13 the pieces he is reading out. I have no objection of that, but I think it
14 appropriate that he indicates when he does that.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will do my best.
16 Q. Is this correct, Witness?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Thank you. I am continuing the reading, the same day, but it is
19 the following page: [In English] " So destroyed T-55 tank near airport
20 with blue sign on side. Muslim poor tactics." [Interpretation] Is this
22 A. For the 8th of August, sir?
23 Q. It should be the same day. Let me check. 9th.
24 JUDGE ORIE: One moment please.
25 Mr. Ierace.
1 MR. IERACE: Yes, I think my friend has just corrected himself.
2 It's not on the 8th. I'll look at the 9th.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is the following day.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
5 THE WITNESS: Correct.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN:
7 Q. Correct. [Interpretation] On the date of the 10th of August: [In
8 English] "Battle royal last night. Heavy artillery and machine-gun.
9 Likely ground attack about one kilometre, 5 kilometre away."
10 [Interpretation] Is this correct?
11 A. Yes, correct.
12 Q. [Interpretation] 11th of August, that was the day that you became
13 a father.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there are two errors in the
15 transcript. I think because of the pronunciation, "about one kilometre, 5
16 kilometre away," which appears at page 34, line 23, should be "about 1.5
17 kilometres away." And page 34, line 11, should be "Muslim," full stop,
18 "Poor tactics." Perhaps my friend could indicate full stops to minimise
19 the errors. And that quote as transcribed reads: "So destroyed T-55
20 tank. That should be "Saw destroyed T-55 tank." That is page 34, line
21 10. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Would you agree with the correction, Mr.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I always agree,
25 Mr. President. Thank you very much.
1 Q. I am proceeding. I am sorry, it seems there is a page missing for
2 the interpreters, but I cannot hand it over now.
3 13th of August, sir. I am very sorry. 13th of August, sir. [In
4 English] "Moved to [inaudible] approximately 12 hours therefore near
5 Dobrinja, six times 82 millimetres mortars on position L-4."
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. "Due to much sniper activity, small arms firing all day." Full
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Just the precision, you are talking here about
11 sniper from BH army firing at your positions, that is, at you?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Thank you, sir.
14 15th of August. We are still talking about BH snipers and I am
15 quoting: [In English] "Definitely shooting at us. Fortunately, trees
16 obscured his view. Two other locals in L-4 also got close calls." Full
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. [Interpretation] When you say "close calls," I understand that
20 these were shots that came very close to you.
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Thank you, sir.
23 I am continuing the same date. [In English] "Rounds landed 200
24 millimetres away at 19.15 hours." [Interpretation] Is this correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. 16th of August, [In English] "Full arms and
2 sniper fire," is this correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. [Interpretation] So I continue.
5 [In English] I am surprised there were not more than two guys
6 killed at L-HQ from snipers in past four days." [Interpretation] Is this
8 A. Incorrect, sir.
9 Q. Why is it incorrect?
10 A. My actually diary that I have here, I am surprised there were not
11 more than..." The next word is illegible, "killed at Lima headquarters
12 from snipers in past four days.
13 Q. [In English] Okay. What I have is "two guys."
14 A. May I consult with my handwritten --
15 Q. Please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: May I in the meantime, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, see what
17 was the exact entry on the 16th of August, because it might not be
18 correctly in the transcript.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We are on the 15th of August,
20 now, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...this moment, but
22 just going back to line -- page 36, line 14.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. This is probably a
24 lapsus linguae, I believe. We were talking about -- yes. No, that is
25 correct. I am sorry. It is 16th of August. I thought you were looking
1 at the date. No, not at all. This is a lot of small arms and sniper
3 JUDGE ORIE: So that is at page 36, line 14, should be "lots of
4 small arms and sniper fire."
5 Then, meanwhile, Mr. Henneberry, you might have found what you
6 were looking for.
7 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately, sir, that is missing from my written
8 diary. Two sounds correct, but I don't have it in my written diary.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Very well. For the transcript, this is ERN 01062842, which has
11 this number, but let us go a bit further, please.
12 Sir, talking about the Serbs and the positions, you said the
13 following: "A plane with U.S. markings dropped weapons on Igman and that
14 an UN convoy smuggled weapons to Muslims in Gorazde."
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For what reason, Mr. Ierace?
17 MR. IERACE: My friend left out two words which are the beginning
18 of that sentence and which alter its meaning significantly. Perhaps he
19 could repeat and read the whole sentence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry, but
22 I did not forget two words that would correspond to the beginning of the
23 sentence. I said "full stop" after "four days" and I am quoting another
24 sentence which begins, "They claim a plane with U.S." and so on.
25 JUDGE ORIE: At least, in the transcript, the words "they claim"
1 and I heard you pronounce it, but it does not appear in the transcript.
2 So it is not a mistake on your side.
3 MR. IERACE: My apologise to my friend, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So at page 37, line 24 on from the second word
5 should read: "They claim a plane with U.S. markings." That is what you
6 read, I remember.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Thank you, sir.
11 Q. Sir, 18th of August, I am reading: [In English] "Still plenty of
12 small arms, sniper and two direct weapons 200 millimetres north."
13 [Interpretation] Is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Sir, on 20th of August, the end of the text that I have, I am
16 reading the following: [In English] "Electricity in house." Correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Could you tell us, sir, what was the reason that
19 there was no electricity?
20 JUDGE ORIE:
21 MR. IERACE: Again, a similar error, page 39, line 2, should be:
22 "No electricity in house."
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That becomes clear from the next question.
24 So the question was why there was no electricity, Mr. Henneberry.
25 THE WITNESS: Electricity was unreliable on both sides. I
1 believe, at this particular house, the electricity had not yet been
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you for your answer, sir. I am continuing on the 21st of
5 August and I am reading from line 2, end of line 2: [In English] "At Lima
6 headquarters HQ sniper close. He killed two Serbs yesterday at L,"
7 meaning Lukavica. Correct?
8 A. That is how it was --
9 MR. IERACE: That should be "While at Lima headquarters." Perhaps
10 in the interest of avoiding these errors, Mr. President, I could
11 respectfully suggest to my friend that he pauses before he then changes to
12 English to read the quotes. It might give the translators a better chance
13 of capturing all the words.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps it's now another surprise, Mr.
15 Piletta-Zanin, when you change languages.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
18 Q. I am continuing, sir, still the 21st of August. That is item 15:
19 [In English] "Later 2 rounds of 105 millimetres landed 50 metres [Realtime
20 transcript read in error "millimetre"] away." Is this correct?
21 A. It is incomplete, sir.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is that 50 millimetre or 50 metre away? The
23 transcript reads "millimetre" but --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: No, it is 50 metres away.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Mr. Ierace.
2 MR. IERACE: Again, Mr. President, the same problem. The
3 transcript reads the quote beginning with the word "later." In fact, I
4 think my friend read out, "It was 30 seconds later."
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is what is in my recollection as well.
6 Perhaps the suggestion of Mr. Ierace, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, was not too bad,
7 if you just make a pause between changing into English.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Okay.
9 Q. 22nd of August. At the end of the paragraph of the 22nd of
10 August, I am going to now quote in English. [In English] "Two times
11 British engineers directly targeted at L-8."
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. "Flight injury by mortar attack British injury."
14 A. Incorrect, sir. It is "British engineer."
15 Q. British engineer?
16 A. That is correct, sir.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Was it "flight injury" or "light injury"?
18 THE WITNESS: Slight injury, sir.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I read "slight."
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
22 Q. 25th of August, third line, I am quoting in English. [In English]
23 "Found out L-8 had been hit by artillery, five UNMOs hurt."
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Going on to 2 lines below: [In English] "Direct
1 120 millimetre hit destroyed two rooms."
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, same problem, again.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when you change quickly from
6 one language to another, we miss every time the first words pronounced by
7 you in English.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I will indicate
9 that I will be speaking in English. We will try to make it a ritual.
10 JUDGE ORIE: From the 25th of August on the 5th line, could you
11 please repeat it? It is my recollection that it started with "house
13 MR. IERACE: I think it is "house."
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN:
15 Q. "House took direct 120 millimetre hit."
16 A. It destroyed two rooms, correct, sir.
17 Q. [Interpretation] I am going on. The last sentence, [In English]
18 "(UN) are being directly targeted"?
19 A. Correct.
20 MR. IERACE: Again, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you indicated that you would
22 announce when you would change to English.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I am so sorry.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will repeat it while
1 looking at the transcript. The last sentence was: [In English] "(UN) are
2 being directly targeted."
3 THE WITNESS: Correct.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Now, it still does not appear properly.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but I cannot do any
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...was "us."
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: "(UN) are being targeted,"
9 and that is correct.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Now, another topic. Since this is correct, sir,
11 who were you targeted by?
12 A. The Muslim forces from Mount Igman, sir.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, is there a --
14 thank you very much.
15 Q. I am interested, sir, in the 26th of August, and I am reading the
16 following: [In English] "More heavy shelling." Is correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Still quoting: [In English] "Adjusted to UN
19 position." "Fire adjusted to UN position."
20 A. The sentence is incomplete, sir.
21 Q. Only --
22 A. Correct, sir.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE ORIE: For the transcript, I take it that the quote was,
25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just the last five words of what appears on page 43,
1 lines 7 and 8. So the first four words, "Adjusted to UN position is --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: "Fire."
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it should be deleted. And it is: "Fire
4 adjusted to UN positions..."
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] "Only."
6 JUDGE ORIE: And in the plural, "positions" not "position."
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Position, singular. Right, it is singular.
8 [Interpretation] I am going to continue with the reading.
9 Q. The same day, sir. [In English] "We are the only targets." Is
11 A. Correct, sir.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. I am reading your comment on the
13 following page. On my page, it is the fourth paragraph. It is the most
14 important paragraph for you, and it is about in the middle, and I am going
15 to be quoting in English. [In English] "I believe that the Muslim gunners
16 were trying to put one through the door." Is correct?
17 A. I am just trying to find that, sir.
18 Q. [Interpretation] It is the fourth paragraph on my page. Begins
19 with the, "I volunteered to go, as L-8," et cetera.
20 A. Okay. Correct, sir.
21 Q. Thank you, sir.
22 I am continuing at -- we are now on the 27th -- that is, 28th of
23 August, and I am reading the last three lines. [In English] "They blame
24 Serbs. Bullshit. Bullshit. They make Muslims and Croats to be innocent
25 of any wrongdoing. News say heavy fighting when there isn't. News say
1 light fighting when it is heavy."
2 A. Correct.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
5 MR. IERACE: Two matters. Firstly, "bullshit" is repeated. In
6 fact, it appears only once.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it was read twice by Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. IERACE: And secondly, I think it appropriate, in order that
9 the context be clearer, that the previous sentence be read as well. I
10 don't suggest that there is anything at all unfair about the selection
11 that my learned colleague has made in relation to this quote. It is
12 simply a matter of making it more obvious what the comment refers to.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was just going to ask the
14 question of the witness because it is not clear, Mr. President, just to
15 find out very briefly to what he was referring to by saying these things.
16 Q. Could you please, answer, sir?
17 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, I object because that question
18 does not necessarily bring out the previous sentence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as you know, the Chamber
20 keeps a close eye on the context of parts of text quoted, and at the same
21 time, tries to avoid any contamination by irrelevant parts. Since
22 Mr. Ierace asked you to read one line in view of a better understanding of
23 the context, would you please do so.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN:
25 Q. "L-1 and L-8 still unmannered due to danger. Still not safe to
1 drive soft centred vehicles around. Got pictures of L-8 today. Read
2 Canadian newspaper report of situation in Sarajevo." And, after that, we
3 have the sentence: "They blame Serbs" and so on.
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that where the transcript says that L-1
5 and L-8, were still "unmannered," that you intended to read "unmanned."
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely, sir.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No other objections from
9 Mr. Ierace?
10 MR. IERACE: Just one quick one, Mr. President. It could help if
11 my learned friend indicated full stop or periods because, without them,
12 the sentence is not apparent. The first period should be after the word
13 "danger" and the second one after the word "around," again, after the
14 word "today." Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If you agree, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
17 Q. 30th of August. First sentence, sir. [In English] "Of major
18 attack to close airport tonight by Muslim forces." Full stop.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Again, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you didn't pause, so
20 the first part of your English text is not in the transcript.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please. Microphone.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Told, t-o-l-d.
23 Q. Correct?
24 A. I am sorry, sir, now I'm lost.
25 Q. 30th of August, please, first sentence: [In English] "Told of
1 major attack to close airport tonight (by Muslim forces)."
2 A. Correct, sir. Sir, are you aware of the difference between the
3 text in italics and the text not in italics, what that means, sir?
4 Q. [Interpretation] Absolutely.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Was there any text in italics, and what would be the
6 difference, and apart from full stops, periods? Could you also, please --
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Gladly. I believe, for
8 the Chamber, if I can interpret what the witness means, it is in general
9 the parts of the text which are in italics, or some of them in italics and
10 in brackets, are parts of the text that were added at a later date by this
11 witness in order to clarify the text which otherwise would have been read
12 with great difficulty.
13 Q. Is that so, sir?
14 A. Yes, sir. The italics does not appear in my diary.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and could you then please indicate which part of
16 the last line you read was in italics.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It was, "by Muslim forces."
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Sir, I am referring now to the 28th of September. As far as I am
21 concerned, that is page 14 out of 29. And this is the first paragraph I
22 am talking about after the title. You are talking about an L-12 position,
23 and I am reading what follows, quoting in English. [In English] "This was
24 a very isolated position about 300 metres from the front line." Full
25 stop. "The Muslims in the surrounding hills were able to fire down into
1 some parts of the compound." Full stop. [Interpretation] Is this
3 A. Correct, sir.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps Mr. Piletta-Zanin should
6 clarify with the witness whether this indeed is an excerpt from his diary
7 in the normal sense or whether it is a quote from another document. The
8 document that I think Mr. Piletta-Zanin has, and I have a copy, has a
9 heading above this section, and indeed all of it is in italics. So
10 perhaps that should be explained.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please --
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Gladly.
13 Q. Sir, did you write what I just read?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe this
16 clarifies the matters.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, it does not. Please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would
18 you please clarify the issue. It was not a matter of whether the witness
19 has written, but it was a matter of whether, as far as I understand, there
20 was some other source from which it was taken, this part of his writing.
21 If I understand you well, Mr. Ierace.
22 MR. IERACE: That is so, Mr. President. It might expedite matters
23 if the witness was given a copy of this document because, as I understand
24 it, he prepared it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please clarify, and you
1 certainly have noted the offer made by the Prosecution.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. The problem is that I
3 don't have a copy of this document because I was going from the principal
4 that this was the document that the witness already had before him. But
5 as far as the italics are concerned, this is perhaps something that the
6 witness obtained from another source. But it is him who wrote it, Mr.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please tell me, Mr. Henneberry, whether the
9 lines just quoted by Mr. Ierace [sic] are taken from any other document?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, those lines do not appear in my diary.
11 They are from another document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: What is that document?
13 THE WITNESS: It is a recommendation for a force commander's
14 commendation and citation that I received.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Does that clarify the matter, Mr. Ierace?
16 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 Q. I am continuing sir, and I am now going on directly to the 10th of
19 October. You mentioned on this date an evacuation from the Blazuj
20 hospital. Do you confirm that?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Could you tell us sir, where was the Blazuj hospital?
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President again, this is not a diary entry in the
24 normal sense and perhaps that should be explained. There is a heading for
25 this section in the document that my friend has. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please clarify with the witness the
2 context, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase the question.
4 Q. Is it true, sir, that some Ukrainian soldiers, two or three of
5 them, Ukrainian soldiers were injured when they were targeted by Muslim
6 soldiers or when they stepped on a -- when they were shelled or stepped on
7 a mine?
8 A. Excuse me, sir. That happened when their vehicle rolled over a
10 Q. Thank you. Is it true that these Ukrainian soldiers were treated
11 in the hospital that I just read the name of, the Blazuj hospital?
12 A. Yes, sir. The Blazuj hospital being my name for it.
13 Q. Thank you, sir.
14 Now, sir, since you are referring to this hospital, could you
15 please tell us under whose control was the Blazuj hospital?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I ask you again to slow down
17 because the transcript in French cannot follow you. So perhaps between
18 question and answer and then again between answer and question, a small
19 pause. Yes.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The problem is the French
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...that is what I was
23 informed, yes.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 Q. Sir, under whose control, which army, was this hospital that we
1 were talking about?
2 A. Serbian control, sir.
3 Q. Sir, I am going to read a quote, and just to be precise, it is in
4 italics, but I am going to read it anyway since this was handed over by
5 the Prosecution and it is --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, to be clear on this, the document
8 that my friend has, on this particular page, states as follows: "6
9 October through 26 November no written diary entries." My friend's
10 questions relate to the 10th of October. There is a heading that reads
11 "10 October taken from my statement included with James De Rosenrol's
12 [phoen] post-action report regarding casualty evacuation from Blazuj
13 hospital dated 11 October." It is appropriate, in my submission, that
14 when is passage is put to a witness, the document from which it comes is
15 identified. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, was this a correct depiction of
17 the -- of what is in the document?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but in the transcript
19 there are some mistakes. But it is not very important. However, what is
20 important, Mr. President, is that it is this document that was given by
21 the Prosecution and it is referring to this witness. So we have got a --
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...to confront the
23 witness with this part of the text of the document, but Mr. Ierace is
24 right in asking that the -- that the -- that it is clear to the witness
25 what is the source as written in the document.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Sir, do you have this text before you because, as I am reading it,
3 you say that I am correct. So do you have this document before you? The
4 text that I just quoted, did you have it before you?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Therefore, sir, you know the source of this document; is that
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...for us to know.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 Q. Now, sir, could you give us the name of the doctor, of the
13 physician who treated these three soldiers, these three UN soldiers at the
14 Blazuj hospital?
15 A. Unless it is written down here, sir, I can't recall. And I don't
16 believe I did write it down.
17 Q. It is not written. Was it a Serb doctor?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Sir, do you remember, since this hospital had given you its means
20 at your disposal, did you make sure that the UN -- that the UN replaced
21 this materiel that was used?
22 A. I tried, sir, but, no, I don't believe it was replaced.
23 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that it was -- you were told that the Serbs
24 were not worthy of this materiel?
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. Thank you for your answer, sir.
2 Sir, when you were on mission in this hospital, and I am talking
3 about the same event, I will read to you what is still in italics, but it
4 seems useful to have it read and I am now quoting in English: [In
5 English] "There was a stack, that's the only way to describe it, a stack
6 of about five dead children, aged around 6 or 7. I immediately turned my
7 head away and asked the doctor what happened. He told me that they had
8 been shelled while waiting at a bus stop." Is correct?
9 A. Correct, sir.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, sir, for this answer.
11 Just a moment, please. According to your recollection, sir, who
12 was it that shelled these people who were waiting for a bus?
13 A. The Muslim forces, sir.
14 Q. Thank you for your answer, sir.
15 We are now going on to the date of the 27th of November, and I am
16 quoting in English now. [In English] "Reports of 15.000 (Muslim troops)
17 from Igman led by German including Leopard tanks." Full stop.
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
20 I am now quoting the italics which follows this passage in
21 English: [In English] "The hill overlooks most of the downtown area and
22 whoever held it could bring fire to bear on the downtown." Is correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. I am now going on to the date of the
25 3rd of December that you have in your notebook, sir.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Without identifying the hill which is identified in
4 the previous sentence, that quote has no relevance, and I think it
5 appropriate --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely. Absolutely. I
7 was just trying to gain time.
8 Q. Witness, are we talking about the Zuc Orlic hill?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Thank you. Just a moment, please.
11 Sir, under whose control was this hill?
12 A. It varied, sir. It was heavily contested.
13 Q. In the period of time of your entry in your diary.
14 A. In fact, both sides were on top of the hill, sir. I visited both
15 sides that day.
16 Q. And later, sir?
17 A. I can't recall sir. If fluctuated.
18 Q. Isn't it true to say that later on these hills were under the
19 control of the BH army?
20 A. I would have to respond by saying I don't believe completely under
21 their control, sir.
22 Q. Thank you for your answer, sir. Is it true, sir, that there
23 were violent combats, fighting for the control of this hill in the month
24 of December? Is that true?
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. Thank you for your answer, sir.
2 I am now going on to the 3rd of December, and I am quoting from
3 the end of the first line in English now: [In English] "BBC News said
4 Serbs shelled airport. We watched and reported Muslims shell airport
5 from Mount Igman, Ilidza. (Again the news reports were wrong and the
6 wrong side took the blame internationally for actions they didn't start)."
7 Full stop. Correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps my friend should indicate -
10 and I will do for him - that the last sentence was entirely in brackets
11 and italics. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If you agree, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was about to say it, but I
14 appreciate the swiftness of Mr. Ierace.
15 Q. Now, from which position, sir, were you able to observe this?
16 A. I don't recall, sir.
17 Q. Thank you for your answer.
18 We are now going on to another date, 5th of December, and I am
19 going to be quoting from the line three. I am going in English now. [In
20 English] "Front line destruction, tanks, vehicles, buildings, animals,
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, when you are talking about tanks, what kind
24 of tanks or which tanks are you talking about?
25 A. I believe the one I remember best was a T-55. I don't know which
2 Q. I am going to interrupt you. I am not asking the type or the
3 category of the tanks. I am talking about which army. Whose tanks were
5 A. I don't know, sir. They were burned.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 Sir, could they have been, technically speaking, BH army tanks?
8 A. They could have, yes, sir.
9 Q. Thank you, sir.
10 Now, sir, we are going on to the 7th of December of your diary and
11 I am going to be reading the first part of this entry, and I am now
12 reading in English: [In English] "Heavy shelling in barracks."
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, in order to avoid other problems, we are
15 talking about Lukavic barracks?
16 A. Correct, sir.
17 Q. I am continuing, and this is the same line of questioning. You
18 said, "heavy shelling." Which type of weapons was this heavy shelling
19 fired with?
20 A. Multi-barreled rocket launcher, sir.
21 Q. This is the sentence that I was going to read that followed, when
22 you indicated below that there were -- were impacts originated from what
23 is known as Katusca. This is the weapon used by the BH forces; is that
25 A. Sir, Katusca is relevant to a specific country.
1 Q. I am going to interrupt you. I am sorry, this is my fault. Let's
2 forget the Katusca. I am talking about the multi-barreled rocket
3 launcher. Is this correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Thank you, sir.
6 Do you know, sir, the Muslim forces, how many of such weapons
7 did they have?
8 A. I don't know, sir.
9 Q. Thank you for your answer, sir.
10 Did you see more than one? Several?
11 A. I did not see any, sir.
12 Q. Thank you for your answer.
13 I am now quoting the fourth line of the same date of the 7th of
14 December, and I am reading as it is written, in English now. [In English]
15 "Muslims new weapons in area." Full stop. "Called abbey" -- no, that is
16 something else. Abbey is -- [Interpretation] I am withdrawing this last
18 When you say "new weapons," what type of weapons are you referring
20 A. The multiple rocket launchers, maybe one. Small arms weapons.
21 New equipment as well. Possibly new artillery, but I can't confirm that.
22 Q. Sir, if you say that on this date, the beginning of December,
23 there were new weapons which were put at the disposal of the Muslim
24 forces, do you know where they came from?
25 A. Yes, sir. From the intelligence reports, they came from the
1 Croatian army.
2 Q. Sir, if we are told that Sarajevo was a closed city, could you
3 perhaps tell us, since you had intelligence reports, how did they weapons
4 come into the city or to the surrounding area of the city? For the
5 English transcript, that would be "where exactly" they came into the city.
6 A. Where exactly, I can't confirm, sir. However, there was
7 reportedly a tunnel under the airport, and I believe that was so. And any
8 good soldiers can penetrate enemy lines in small numbers, and I believe
9 that is how some got in.
10 Q. Thank you for your answer.
11 I am going to go back to the hospital that we spoke of earlier
12 and where these three Ukrainian soldiers were evacuated from.
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Sir, did you know about the operation that was sometimes referred
15 to as "Operation Oxygen" and that would have included transporting
16 gunpowder hidden in oxygen bottles and delivered to some hospitals?
17 A. Yes, sir, I heard of that.
18 Q. When did you -- when did you hear about this?
19 A. I don't recall, sir. I haven't thought of that until you just
20 mentioned it.
21 Q. Did you hear about it from the official circles or in the official
23 A. Official, sir.
24 Q. Could you briefly tell us what you heard, what it was about?
25 A. Sir, there was an accusation by the Serbian forces that under or
1 in UN convoys, some of the items, such as oxygen bottles in this case,
2 contained supplies destined for Muslim forces in the city.
3 Q. And it is in this context that two bottles of oxygen containing
4 gunpowder were delivered by mistake to this Serb hospital of Blazuj?
5 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. IERACE: That question does not follow the answer given by the
8 witness. The witness spoke of an accusation from Serb sources. This
9 question asked by my learned colleague is of no assistance because it is
10 merely an assertion by my learned colleague to the witness, an assertion
11 made without any proper basis to this witness, given his state of
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please adapt your question --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I am going to rephrase
15 the question, Mr. President.
16 Q. Did you hear, sir, at the time that the Serbs claimed that this
17 system was used in a general way to bring supplies to the Muslim forces;
18 yes or no?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you hear, sir, that the Serbs would have complained at the
21 time that these two bottles would have arrived to them by mistake at the
22 time to the hospital of Blazuj?
23 A. I don't recall that specific, sir.
24 Q. Very well. Thank you for your answer.
25 Now, as far as the convoys concerned that you spoke of earlier, is
1 it true that the Serbs were complaining that some of these convoys could
2 have been used in order to bring weapons, to smuggle weapons in?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Thank you, sir.
5 Is it true, sir that the name of the Operation Container was also
6 circulating in the official circles in order to denote this smuggling of
8 A. I don't understand your question, sir. Sorry.
9 Q. Did you hear sir, talk of "Operation Container" in relation to the
10 operations of weapon smuggling?
11 A. No, sir, I did not hear an operation name.
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 I am going to go back to the day of the 8th of December, and I am
14 reading the first line in English now. [In English] "Heavy shelling all
15 around." Full stop. "50 plus in barracks." Is that correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. [Interpretation] When you say "50 plus," you mean more than 50
18 impacts on the barracks?
19 A. Correct, sir.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 I am now reading more or less from the middle of the paragraph,
22 starting with "L-4," and I am quoting in English:
23 [In English] "Had" -- "L-4 had impacts nearby. Intelligence (Serb) that
24 use of part of a Muslim factional leader will start shelling the city."
25 [Interpretation] Sir, could you first tell us who is this "Jusuf
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Pa"? We do not have his entire last name written here.
2 A. I do, sir but, frankly, I cannot read the writing. If I may be
3 permitted to have a look.
4 Q. Sir, is it perhaps the name of Prazina?
5 A. In fact, sir, I have "Jusuf Pa" as an incomplete word in my
6 written diary. I did not spell the name out.
7 Q. Thank you, sir. Did you hear talk of Jusuf Prazina? And could it
8 have -- and could it have been this person?
9 A. Possibly, sir.
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps my friend could spell that
11 name. And whilst I am on my feet, he has not identified the barracks and
12 that might be useful as well, that is the barracks that received the 50
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think I did identify the
15 barracks, that it was Lukavica, didn't I?
16 Q. Sir, is that correct?
17 A. It is Lukavica barracks, yes, sir.
18 Q. Thank you very much. And as far as the name is concerned, I
19 believe that P-r-a-z-i-n-a or perhaps m-a, I am not sure. I am
20 continuing with my quote, sir, and I am reading the following sentence:
21 [In English] "Papa side confirms firing to PTT came from P-4."
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Could you tell us, where exactly was P-4?
24 A. I couldn't tell you exactly. It was inside Sarajevo.
25 Q. In other words, sir, you are writing on this day and you are
1 telling us today that the Muslim forces shelled the PTT building; is that
3 A. Correct, sir.
4 Q. Sir, as far as you know, did this happen on several occasions?
5 A. Shelling inside the city, yes, sir. Specific to the PTT, perhaps
6 more than once.
7 Q. Very well.
8 Sir, I am now going on to the 12th of December, second line. We
9 have here: "L-12 meeting, (artillery) impacts and snipers." Is this
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. We are still talking of BH army snipers, naturally, is that
14 A. I believe so, yes, sir.
15 Q. Thank you, sir.
16 I am now going on to the 16th of December and I am reading the
17 following second line in English. [In English] "Meeting with Galic,
18 interesting." Full stop. "To open corridor by fire." Full stop.
19 A. Correct, sir.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 Sir, in these three lines that are not in italics - in fact, two
22 and a half lines - do you see anything else which is referring to General
23 Galic, apart from these nine words that I have just read to you?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. Thank you, sir.
1 I am going to come back to this date a little later on. Now,
2 18th of December, I am reading starting from the fourth line.
3 [In English] "Out of vehicle fluid all over. Several more rockets (German
4 107-millimetre surface-to-surface) very close 1 to 10 metres, Christmas
5 tree." Full stop.
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Now, when you mentioned these
8 weapons, these rockets, and in fact perhaps it is a missile, land-to-land
9 107-millimetre of German manufacture, could you perhaps tell us very
10 briefly what it is?
11 A. I was told it was a 107-millimetre rocket, and in the context of
12 what happened, it would be an anti-armoured weapon, primarily used for
13 tanks against tanks or armoured vehicles or bunkers.
14 Q. Sir, you personally found this missile; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. And you could testify here that this is a very modern, very
17 sophisticated weapon?
18 A. It is modern, yes, sir. Not sophisticated, but modern.
19 Q. Thank you for your answer, sir.
20 Who fired on you?
21 A. The Muslim forces, sir.
22 Q. With an anti-armoured weapon?
23 A. Correct, sir.
24 Q. Did you have the impression that you were deliberately targeted?
25 A. I have no doubt of that, sir.
1 Q. Sir, is it true to say that on several occasions you had the
2 impression or even a certainty that you were deliberately targeted by the
3 Muslim forces?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Sir, why do you think that?
6 A. The Muslim forces were also angry with the United Nations. On one
7 occasion of deliberate firing, I believe that they didn't like the reports
8 that the UNMOs were making. And on the occasion in December, frankly, I
9 think they just wanted to kill us.
10 Q. Sir, what was the reason that you would -- they would want to
11 kill you?
12 A. They didn't like the UN as well, sir.
13 Q. Do you think that this is a sufficient reason?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Thank you for your answer.
16 I am going to go back to the 20th of December and I am going into
17 English now quoting: [In English] "New weapons." Full stop. "Muslims
18 well-equipped, especially mosques." Full stop. [Interpretation] Is this
20 A. Correct, sir.
21 Q. Just a moment, please. I will continue with the reading. The
22 following sentence: [In English] "The following mission stopped 1515
23 hours as firing (small arms). One worker hit." Full stop.
24 A. Correct, sir.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you sir.
1 I will finish very shortly with this topic. 25th of December,
2 sir. Is it true, sir, that for the 25th December entry, there are three
3 and a half lines that are not in italics?
4 A. Correct, sir.
5 Q. Thank you, sir.
6 I am quoting the last sentence: [In English] "Meeting
7 Galic/Mole/I." Full stop. "Boring. Airport road open." Full stop.
8 A. Correct, sir.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.
10 Going on from these five words that I quoted, is there anything
11 else in relation to General Galic?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 The 4th of January, 1993, I am going to quote the last sentence.
15 Did you find the entry?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Last sentence in English: [In English] "Vehicle directly targeted
18 from Mojmilo hill landed within 50 metres."
19 A. Correct, sir.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
21 Now, sir, this date, 4th of January 1993, the Mojmilo hill was
22 under the control of which army at that time?
23 A. Muslim forces, sir.
24 Q. Thank you for your answer, sir.
25 Now, I am going to go to a completely another line of questioning
1 before I give the floor to my co-counsel. You have confirmed that the
2 Commander Indjic who became Colonel Indjic was the head of the secret
3 services or the intelligent services, is that correct?
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I may be mistaken but I don't
5 recollect that that was the evidence as to the --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase my question.
7 Q. Did you say, sir, that Commander Indjic told you that he was
8 working in the intelligence?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Did you testify that he was a high official or a senior officer
11 in the area of intelligence service?
12 A. A major, yes, sir. Major is senior officer.
13 Q. Very well. Thank you, sir.
14 Sir, you also said that you were friendly with Major Indjic; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Sir, is it true that the main task of an officer, of an
18 intelligence officer, is to look for information, rather than give it?
19 A. No, sir. If I may clarify?
20 Q. Yes, please, do.
21 A. The main task is to receive information, collate it, analyse it,
22 and then give it in a fashion that is collated. If you mean was Major
23 Indjic looking for information from me, then, yes, sir, that is correct.
24 Q. Thank you for this clarification. Otherwise --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please, if you finish your sentence, I would like
1 to --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. His function, his position, if he was in the intelligence, his
4 main task was to look for information, have it analyzed and then have it
5 transmitted to his superiors but not to give it to you; is that true?
6 A. Correct, sir.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as far as I could follow you, you
9 used the word "amici in relation to Major Indjic. It appears in the
10 transcript as being "friendly with." I do not know, but just for the sake
11 of clarification, I would like to know for sure that the word "amici" of
12 course which comes from "amigos" for "friend," is the same as being
13 friendly with. I always had the feeling that you could be friendly with
14 someone although not being friends. Could perhaps the interpreters --
15 perhaps could you repeat that question in the original wording and then
16 find out that we have no misunderstanding.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly.
18 Q. Sir, did you have -- did you have a relationship of friendship
19 with Major Indjic or only friendly contacts which, it is true, is not the
20 same thing?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. "Yes" to what?
23 A. Friendly contacts, a camaraderie.
24 Q. Thank you. Major Indjic was for you a comrade?
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. Thank you, Witness.
2 Sir, would you agree with me to consider that if a person who
3 pretends having an important position, like Major Indjic, gave you very
4 important information on a corps plan, supposedly that would be a very
5 important fact, would it not?
6 A. Important for a number of reasons, yes, sir.
7 Q. Important for the reasons that would be in relation to your
8 position as an observer, right?
9 A. Yes, sir, for varying reasons in that capacity.
10 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, if I say that it is not just
11 important, but very important?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Even fundamental, vital?
14 A. Depending on the context, yes, sir.
15 Q. In this specific context of Sarajevo?
16 A. My apologies, sir. I am not trying to be vague. If the
17 information he gave was true, then it is vital. If it was to test me --
18 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you.
19 Sir, would you agree with me to consider that this information
20 was given to you on a specific date?
21 A. Information was given to me on several specific dates, sir. I
22 don't recall which ones.
23 Q. So, let us say several dates, several specific dates. Sir, could
24 you explain to me, since you said that the diary that we spoke of earlier
25 was your confidant, what was the reason for that? Why was that?
1 A. Why did I write the diary, sir, or why was it my confidant?
2 Q. I am just going to finish my question. I am going to finish my
3 question. What was the reason, since your diary was your confidant, you
4 never mentioned that Major Indjic told you such things?
5 A. I don't know, sir.
6 Q. Sir, if these pieces of information were of a vital importance
7 like you just said, wouldn't it be logical that at least one entry in your
8 diary would appear in relation to this or to this effect?
9 A. That would be logical, yes, sir.
10 Q. Could you then explain why there is nothing of that on that topic
11 in your diary?
12 A. I can explain why I believe that to be so, yes, sir. If that is
13 what you would like.
14 Q. Briefly, please.
15 A. I was tired of writing in the diary. There are plenty of vital
16 or important points throughout the tour that I didn't put in there. I was
17 in a sense affected by the war in that it was so commonplace and routine
18 that I didn't want to keep putting it in.
19 Q. So, this is due to your personal tiredness that you didn't input
20 that vital point in your diary; is that correct?
21 A. Tiredness and the fact that it all seemed the same, yes, sir.
22 Q. Very well.
23 So I am going to go a bit further. In spite of that, you
24 indicated, and it is obvious from your diary, that you are an able and
25 conscientious military officer?
1 A. I believe so, sir.
2 Q. Very well. When you gained such information that you would have
3 received from Major Indjic, did you immediately, as this would be your
4 duty, make a report for your superiors?
5 A. I did, sir. Perhaps not immediately, but in the daily report.
6 Q. Could you tell us when would that report have been written?
7 A. The daily reports were written during the evening, sir, and
8 transmitted at the same time.
9 Q. Did you find any trace of that report?
10 A. There was a report every day, sir.
11 Q. I will take note of that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If you could find a suitable moment for a break.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have another five minutes
14 and then my colleague will continue. And the moment is good.
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...perhaps over the
16 one hour and a half. If we could continue for five minutes so Mr.
17 Piletta-Zanin could conclude his cross-examination.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Certainly, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 Q. Sir, I would like to show you a document, perhaps with the
22 assistance of the usher.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President. Thank you
24 very much.
25 THE REGISTRAR: D108.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.
2 Q. Sir, before we examine this document, you told us earlier,
3 answering a Prosecution question, that General Galic told you himself that
4 his mission or, rather, his desire was to destroy the city or to see the
5 Muslims leave, all of them, the city. Is that what you recall to be the
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Were you alone with General Galic?
9 A. At that time, sir? Probably with Colonel Mole as well, sir.
10 Q. Very well. Colonel Mole was with you so we can go --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE: I object. My friend has not accurately reflected
13 the evidence, the last answer of the witness, in formulating his question.
14 My friend has said, "Very well. Colonel Mole was with you so we can
15 go -- " In fact, the answer as to whether Colonel Mole was with the
16 witness was: "Probably with Colonel Mole as well, sir." Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see.
19 Q. Witness, could you confirm, please, that for the reasons of
20 protocol, you were not able as a major to speak to a commander who was a
21 general or a corps general, is that true? You needed a superior rank
22 officer with you?
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. Are you telling me that the sergeant could have been addressing a
25 general who is a corps commander?
1 A. No, sir, I am telling you that in my position as the senior UNMO
2 on the Serb side, I could address him.
3 Q. Very well.
4 Now, at the time of this meeting, you said that "probably" Colonel
5 Mole was with you. Does this probably mean any kind of certainty?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you, sir.
8 I would like to take page --
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I didn't say anything, Mr.
12 President. I don't know why there should be an objection to nothing.
13 MR. IERACE: My learned colleague cut off the witness before he
14 could complete his answer, and in any event, the question that my learned
15 colleague asked the witness was whether "At the time of this meeting."
16 End quote. Colonel Mole was with him. In fact, the issue is, and the
17 earlier question from my learned colleague relates to whether Colonel
18 Mole was with him at the time that General Galic spoke of his desire to
19 destroy the city, et cetera.
20 So again we have a subtle confusion, no doubt not intended, but
21 which confuses a very important issue. Thank you, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. My answer
24 is the following: Considering the extraordinary length of the objection
25 of Mr. Ierace, I think we should have the break now and I will continue
1 after the break for another five minutes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that you think that he has taken the whole
5 five minutes you intended to use, but I will grant you a couple of minutes
6 after the break. We will have a -- we will adjourn until 10 minutes to
8 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
9 --- Upon resuming at 12.51 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I see you are on your feet.
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as you promised, you will finish within five
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the only point I wish to make is that
14 I think it's important the witness be given the opportunity to finish that
15 answer which appears at page 71, line 16. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look.
17 You told us, and I just read the first part of your answer on the
18 page specified by Mr. Ierace -- the question was: "Now at the time of
19 this meeting, you said that probably Colonel Mole was with you. Does this
20 'probably' mean any kind of certainty?" And then your answer started, at
21 least, with "yes." Was there anything you would like to add to that?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I believe the question was in reference
23 to when General Galic told me that he would open a city, is that correct,
24 open a corridor? Lines previous to that.
25 MR. IERACE: If I could assist, Mr. President. It was in relation
1 to the point in time when General Galic, according to the witness, said
2 that his intention was to destroy the city or rid it of Muslims.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 And it was the occasion, the question was about.
5 THE WITNESS: What I would like to add, sir, is I am fairly
6 certain that Colonel Mole was with me because that similar statement took
7 us both by surprise and I am almost positive that that particular meeting
8 with that statement, Colonel Mole was present. That is all. Thank you,
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. This is just the same,
13 Mr. President. The Defence's position was not asked for after the
14 objection of the Prosecution, but since things have been clarified now, am
15 I authorised to continue? Thank you very much, Mr. President.
16 Q. Sir, could you please take the Exhibit number D108, please. You
17 have it before you. I would ask you to read items one, two, three, four,
18 of this communication, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Is that necessary? We can all read it. If you
20 intend to tender it as evidence --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. We would like to
22 tender it.
23 Q. Sir, in this document that we have before us and it was signed by
24 then General Mole, do you see one single sentence where this senior
25 officer or lieutenant-colonel was complaining in any way of the facts that
1 have just taken place just before.
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...make as an
3 observation that there is no signature of anyone under it. But I don't
4 know whether it's that what you --
5 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President. That is not an issue that does
6 concern me. What does concern me is that there are clearly some
7 preliminary questions which must be asked before Mr. Piletta-Zanin could
8 put that question. The most obvious one is a view to establishing that
9 this refers to the same meeting. I note that it recites the date of the
10 19th of December, 1992, and I think the witness's evidence is that the
11 conversation took place at a meeting on the 16th at the same time, 1992.
12 Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please first clarify this?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, is it true that the 19th of December, this date comes
18 after the date of the 16th of December, 1992 --
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...in need of any
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps this has no meaning
22 but okay, very well.
23 Q. Now, three days after the 16th, is there in this communication a
24 complaint of any kind by Lieutenant-Colonel Mole?
25 A. No, sir.
1 Q. Sir, isn't it true that three days later these alleged facts,
2 Colonel Mole, that you just confirmed was with you, confirmed the
3 following, and I am now going to quote in English: [In English] "This
4 matter cements the already excellent relationships we enjoy. So from all
5 UNMOs, may I express my appreciation and wish for continued mutual support
6 in these difficult times." [Interpretation] End of quote.
7 Now, do you see in this any negative remarks, sir?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. Thank you, sir.
10 Now, sir, do you know of a number of Serbs who were in Sarajevo at
11 the time that we are talking about?
12 A. Civilians, you mean, sir?
13 Q. There were only civilians, in fact, who had remained in Sarajevo
14 as Serbs.
15 A. Yes, sir, I am.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. An assertion by my learned
17 colleague from the bar table as a matter of fact is, in my respectful
18 submission, entirely out of place and it is not necessarily consistent
19 with the evidence as I recollect it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you please refrain next time from making
21 these kind of statements while questioning the witness. When he asked for
22 a clarification, it is not up to counsel to tell the witness what is the
24 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President.
1 But the witness did understand the question. Could he answer it?
2 THE WITNESS: I am aware of both civilians and military Serbians
3 in the city of Sarajevo, yes, sir.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
5 Q. My question was about the number, how many people were there.
6 JUDGE ORIE: In your question, you wanted to exclude the
7 military, as far as I understand, or do you include?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will include everyone, Mr.
9 President: Women, men, military, elderly, everyone.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I don't recollect how many there were.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Sir, if I give you the number of 40.000, more or less, do you
13 think that that is approximately the truth?
14 A. I am just trying to remember where they were in the city. That
15 seems to me high, but there were certainly thousands, yes, sir.
16 Q. Sir, do you see a reason why a military chief would decide to
17 destroy a city where there are 40.000 of his own citizens?
18 A. His shelling didn't land in their area, sir. The Serbian shelling
19 did not land in the area that I know the Serbs to have been in.
20 Q. I thought that you indicated that the shelling was random.
21 A. Yes, sir, towards the centre of the city, and it fell outside that
23 Q. Now, you said, sir, that the shelling was indiscriminate. Could
24 you tell us precisely where were the HQs of the brigades, the HQs of
25 battalions and the HQs of companies?
1 A. On which side, sir?
2 Q. In Sarajevo.
3 A. No, sir, I can't.
4 Q. Therefore, sir, how can you say that shelling was indiscriminate
5 if you did not know where -- when there was a shell landing, how could you
6 tell if you didn't know whether there was an HQ in that area?
7 A. Because, sir, I was involved on several occasions trying to
8 negotiate a ceasefire because shells were specifically hitting the UNMOs
9 and civilian only areas, those comments from my counterparts, the UNMOs in
10 the city, and I also witnessed in the area of Rajlovac and the PTT, shells
11 falling in civilian areas.
12 Q. Sir, how could you be certain that there were no military targets,
13 mobile military targets, in a place where a shell was landing or was fired
15 A. There was no way to be sure, sir, but mobile military targets
16 aren't hit by artillery. It is an inappropriate weapon.
17 Q. So that is perhaps an inappropriate weapon, but did you know that
18 in Sarajevo there were possibilities of mechanised transport with mortars
19 which allowed them to be moved around the city?
20 A. Wheeled transports, and I only make that this distinction because
21 mechanised for me is armoured track vehicles, but, yes, sir, on
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you indicated that you would
24 finish in five minutes. I don't mind if you continue, but it is time from
25 the Defence.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I know.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So Ms. Pilipovic will have less time, and you could
3 not have possibly thought that from the questions I heard until now that
4 you would have finished that in five minutes.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, but the matters evolve
7 sometimes very rapidly.
8 Q. The very last question from me. Sir, when you had these meetings
9 with Major Indjic -- I withdraw that. When you had meetings with General
10 Galic, is it true to say that you were not able to speak directly to him
11 because you do not speak Serbian?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Thank you for your answer.
14 Sir, therefore, you had to use an interpreter?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Sir, did you always have the same interpreter?
17 A. Primarily, yes, sir, in the headquarters.
18 Q. Sir, who was the interpreter during these meetings or this meeting
19 with General Galic?
20 A. Most likely Jadranka, a UN employee. Specifically, I don't know,
21 but most likely Jadranka.
22 Q. This employee, do you know, sir, what was her religion?
23 A. Her ethnicity was Serbian, sir. Religion, I am sorry, I don't
24 know, but, ethnicity, she was from Belgrade, if I answered your question.
25 Q. Sir, is it true that you gave a written statement on the 22nd of
1 July, 2000, to Mr. Barry Hogan?
2 A. May I check my notes?
3 Q. Yes, please do.
4 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.
5 Q. Is it true that in this statement, this written statement, you
6 referred to this meeting of the 16th of December, 1992?
7 A. I would have to review the document, sir. Yes, I see on page 4, a
8 passage there, that refers to the 16th of December, yes, sir.
9 Q. Could you please read this paragraph?
10 A. Yes, sir. On page 4, it starts: "The first time was on 16
11 December, 1992, with Lieutenant-Colonel Mole. We discussed a corridor for
12 civilians to get out of Sarajevo. He was very hard-nosed in his demand
13 that a corridor be ensured for Serb civilians. He stated that he would
14 open a corridor by fire, if necessary. I knew that he was the commander
15 of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps. His staff had told me who he was. I
16 didn't have ready access to him since he was at a rank above which I would
17 usually deal. This meeting lasted about half an hour but no agreement
18 was reached." End of paragraph.
19 Q. Thank you for this quote, sir.
20 Now, this document that you just read from and that you signed -
21 and we agree that this was on the date that I told you a moment ago, that
22 2nd of July, 2000 - is it true in this document dated the 2nd of July,
23 2000, and in relation to this event of the 16th of December, 1992, you
24 never mentioned -- you never mentioned what you told us today in relation
25 to what General Galic allegedly told you with regard to the destruction of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the city and the people inside? Is that correct?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Sir, it is less than two years when you gave a detailed
4 description to the investigators about what went on, and it did not
5 include what you told us this morning or the day before. What happened
6 in the meantime so that we have such a radical change of your position
7 and, I could also say, unexpected change?
8 A. Several things, sir. When I was notified that I might come to
9 testify and after this written statement was given, I reviewed every
10 document I had. I had not done that prior to giving the statement on 2
11 July --
12 Q. I am going to interrupt you, sir.
13 At the end of this statement of the 2nd of July, 1992, there is a
14 text which is prepared by the Prosecution which is called "Witness
15 Acknowledgment," and it says that you can be called to testify before --
16 in public, before the Tribunal. Didn't you see this addendum, this
18 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. Mr. President, my learned
19 colleague has gone to the trouble to ask the witness a question in careful
20 language. The witness has started to answer that question, and he has
21 then been cut off. In my respectful submission, it is not appropriate for
22 counsel to cut off a witness when patently the witness is, indeed,
23 answering the question asked. And once the question is asked, the counsel
24 is obliged to let the witness finish the answer.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the objection is sustained.
1 You started answering several things: "When I was notified I
2 might come to testify and after this written statement was given, I
3 reviewed every document I had. I had not done that prior to giving the
4 statement on the 2nd of July." Could you please complete your answer to
5 this question?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. The documents that I spoke primarily from
7 on the 2nd of July were my specific diary entries from here. I also, as
8 you see, have a brown book, several reports, and perhaps most importantly
9 approximately 20 hours of video diary. I reviewed all of that in
10 significant detail several times shortly after this document and, in fact,
11 prepared an edited version of the video in perhaps three hours. I
12 developed the map we have used earlier and provided additional written
13 information following the statement here.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Sir, thank you for this clarification.
16 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 You talked about preparing a summary of the video, and you went in
18 full detail through your notes. Was it your own initiative that you did
19 so? Were you assisted by anyone while doing so?
20 THE WITNESS: I was assisted by a Canadian Forces video technician
21 because I -- as we saw with my camera, I am not very good with
22 electronics, but reviewing the notes was on my own initiative. The
23 development of the map and the editing of the video was something I had
24 offered to Mr. Hogan and offered to do it after his visit in July of 2000.
25 He accepted that, and so I did that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Was the office in the OTP in every way assisting you
2 in performing what you intended to do already, or did you just do it on
3 your own with the technical assistance of the person you just spoke
5 THE WITNESS: Just by myself, sir.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Very well, sir. If I understand correctly, it was following the
9 fact that you got hold of your documents and suddenly you remembered --
10 you recalled what General Galic told you and what Commander Indjic told
12 A. Yes, sir, I recalled more details.
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 Could you tell us, please, what are the written documents that you
15 based yourself on in order to claim what you just said?
16 A. This book, sir, is what I call an "O-group book." It is all of
17 the professional notes of meetings with my own staff and colleagues, some
18 observations. Likewise, I had copies of reports from Sarajevo called the
19 "End Month Senior UNMO Reports," dozen of pages which I also reviewed, and
20 other documents that we've referred to here, like the report on Blazuj
21 Hospital, force commanders, commendation, et cetera.
22 Q. Sir, am I to conclude from what you just said that this book that
23 you have before you, you used this in order to compile a text which is in
24 italics and in brackets that we saw in the previous document this morning?
25 A. Partially, yes, sir. I also used the video and others.
1 Q. Were there any other written documents that you were helped by?
2 A. Yes, sir. The --
3 Q. All of the documents that you were able to get a hold of?
4 A. All of the documents I had, yes, sir.
5 Q. How come that in the document that I quoted earlier, which is your
6 diary including the addenda that you included, it was never mentioned the
7 words of General Galic that he allegedly said and that you testified about
8 or words of Major Indjic?
9 A. Don't know, sir.
10 Q. Are you the author of this document?
11 A. Mr. Hogan's document or the July 2000 document?
12 Q. No. The document that was written in July that I quoted this
14 A. I am sorry, sir. I am not sure which document you mean.
15 Q. We quoted many passages this morning, sir, and it seems that this
16 was your own compilation of your diary.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
19 MR. IERACE: Yes. I don't know whether it is a translation
20 confusion or not, but my learned colleague has described -- has referred
21 to a document that was written in July that I quoted this morning. I
22 assume that my friend refers to --
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry. 2nd of October.
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... We are talking
25 about at this very moment. And the question was whether you were the
1 author of that document.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I am the author of the diary transcripts.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
4 Q. And you confirm, then, that this date, 2nd of October, 2000, in
5 this document that I partially quoted this morning, anywhere in this
6 document there is no mention whatsoever either to what Major Indjic had
7 allegedly said or what General Galic had allegedly said?
8 A. I don't believe that to be correct, sir. There are indications;
9 but verbatim, no, sir.
10 Q. Could you perhaps indicate for me in this document what are these
11 places where you had written what General Galic had said or Major Indjic?
12 A. Yes, sir. They are not written, as I meant to say. They are
14 Q. So then they are not mentioned in this document dated 2nd of
15 October, 2000; is that correct?
16 A. Their text, their words are not mentioned. But 2nd October, 2000,
17 I am sorry, I don't know which one you mean. This document, my diary, is
18 not dated 2nd October, 2000.
19 Q. No, sir. But the covering letter that you addressed at the time
20 to Mr. Barry Hogan, investigator, is dated 2nd of October, 2000. And on
21 the back, we have these pages before you that are reproduced in your
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have an unmarked copy of that
24 exhibit which is P646, if you think it appropriate for the witness to look
25 at it. That is the diary with the covering letter in the format for the
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would this assist you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to
3 have this shown to the --
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With great pleasure,
5 Mr. President.
6 Q. Sir, on the basis of this document -- is this your document? Did
7 you write it?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Could you please tell us where is it that you wrote the words that
10 were allegedly spoken by General Galic or Major Indjic?
11 A. I doubt that they appear in this letter, sir. I haven't read it
12 recently, but I doubt that they appear.
13 Q. Following this letter, do you have 29 pages that are reproduced in
14 your diary?
15 A. Yes, sir, it appears so.
16 Q. Sir, could you indicate for us in these 29 pages where is it that
17 you may have mentioned clearly what General Galic said or what Major
18 Indjic said?
19 A. I don't believe it is mentioned clearly, sir.
20 Q. Could you tell us why not, if that was vital?
21 A. Yes, sir. This document, I believe -- this document was written
22 directly from my written journal only. The start of this document does
23 say that eventually I will incorporate the video document and other
24 documents that I have completely into this document. That was not done
25 at the time of writing the diary or transcribing the diary.
1 Q. Sir, you often spoke about this video. Could you tell us that
2 each time there would be a videotape where General Galic is saying --
3 talking about his desire that he would raze the city to the ground and
4 rid it of Muslims?
5 A. Not of General Galic, sir, I don't have any videotape of him.
6 Q. I am talking about General Galic.
7 A. No, sir. It is only me on the video, sir.
8 Q. Very well. Thank you, sir.
9 Now, sir, do you know about a book that was written by one of
10 your compatriots called, I believe, "The Lion, the Fox and the Eagle."
11 A. Yes, sir, I am aware. I have it at home. I haven't read it.
12 Q. You haven't read it, but you have it?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Do you know more or less its contents?
15 A. I know the essence of what -- I believe I know the essence of what
16 was said, based on a book review, yes, sir.
17 Q. Who is the author of this book, could you tell us?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. Sir, do you know if in July 1992 the parties had reached an
20 agreement on the control and withdrawal of heavy weapons?
21 A. I believe so, yes, sir.
22 Q. Sir, is it true to say that General Galic, at the time he was a
23 colonel, had directly been involved in this agreement?
24 A. I don't know, sir. I arrived at the end of July. I don't know.
25 Q. Is it true, however, that this agreement had been carried out and
1 respected by the Serb party?
2 A. No, sir, just the opposite.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will just confer with my
4 colleague, please.
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there is approximately 18 minutes
7 left for the cross-examination, so I am not going to protect
8 Ms. Pilipovic. You just conferred, but please bear in mind.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you so much. But
10 Ms. Pilipovic can defend herself very well, Mr. President, and I think I
11 will continue by myself.
12 Q. Sir, could you tell us when it is that you learned that General
13 Galic became the corps commander?
14 A. I would guess September, sir, during the official change or
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise.
18 Q. Sir, I am going to go to a question that you were asked by the
19 Chamber. In the period that I am going to call the interim, you said that
20 you were not assisted in the editing of the documents after your first
21 statement was taken. Is that correct? Sir, at the time of the time, what
22 was the frequency of your contacts with the Prosecution following your
23 statement in July 2000?
24 A. I believe the next contact I had would have been just prior to
25 sending the videos and whatnot, by way of a phone call, I believe. There
1 was no, to the best of my recollection, no contact between us in that
2 intervening period.
3 Q. Sir, who was it that took the initiative for the editing of this
4 2nd of October 2000, this document that you have before you, that you just
5 received earlier?
6 A. I did, sir.
7 Q. It says at the end of the letter addressed to Mr. Barry Hogan by
8 you, that if anything is unclear, or that if they should have any further
9 questions, they should not hesitate to contact you. Were you contacted?
10 A. I believe I contacted him in the spring of 2001, sir, possibly,
11 the fall of 2000, in that the initial indication was that I may be
12 required to testify, fall 2000, spring/summer 2001. I called and asked
13 what was going on. There is a possibility that I was contacted by Mr.
14 Hogan. I simply don't recall.
15 Q. Did you hand over any other documents to the Prosecution, sir,
16 that is documents that would show or demonstrate in an official manner,
17 and uncontested, the fact that complaints were made by you to the
18 organisation following what General Galic had allegedly said?
19 A. I don't know, sir. I suspect that in all of the official
20 documents that specific statement is not there.
21 Q. Sir, you said earlier that you had access to all of the
22 documents; is that correct?
23 A. All of the documents that I sent, yes, sir.
24 Q. Very well.
25 So in all the documents that you sent, sir, there wasn't a single
1 document that incorporated such a complaint; is that correct?
2 A. I don't recall completely. Document-wise probably not. Video, I
3 don't recall. Perhaps, sir.
4 Q. Sir, would you agree with me to consider that memory is --
5 deteriorates with time?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And, therefore, what we said or declared before is generally
8 fresher than what we may have said at a later date?
9 A. I don't understand, sir.
10 Q. Perhaps it is an interpretation matter. But the fact is, what we
11 said at an early date is fresher in memory compared to what we consider at
12 a later date?
13 A. Yes, I guess. I am still not sure I understand your question.
14 But from my understanding --
15 JUDGE ORIE: If I may try to explain the question to you as I
16 understand it. Would you agree that the less time has passed since the
17 events, the memory would be more reliable compared to the memory at a
18 later moment when more time has lapsed since the events; the memory tries
19 to reproduce?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, pure memory, I agree.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I tried to rephrase the
22 question in a way that I understood it. Perhaps you will read it.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I believe
24 that we mean the same thing. That is what I meant.
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... It was that he
1 agreed that it wasn't pure memory.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Witness, if you don't manage to get hold of written documents,
4 official documents, that would show and demonstrate the reality of
5 alleged words spoken by General Galic at a certain period of time, would
6 you not consider with me that your memory was then less fresher than what
7 comes from July 2000?
8 A. In most cases, yes, sir.
9 Q. Thank you for your answer.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just need a little time to
11 confer, Mr. President.
12 Q. And therefore, sir, this obviously is valid not only for what
13 General Galic said, but -- allegedly said, but also for what Major Indjic
14 may have said?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Therefore, sir, logically, this is only a logical matter. This is
17 also valid for the question of the existence of an alleged plan on the
18 level of the corps?
19 A. May I read your question, sir. I am not sure I understand.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you are just asking about
21 logics, this would assume that you want the witness to explain to the
22 Chamber what is logical. I think the Chamber is perfectly able to decide
23 what is logical and what is not logical. You said it's purely logic so
24 that is of no use asking a witness.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am perhaps putting logic in
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... intent and what
3 the line of your questioning is and at what point you are -- please
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I am sorry.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
7 will again confer. I will just continue very rapidly, Mr. President.
8 Q. Sir, in relation to the question of snipers, you said in your
9 notebook -- you wrote in your diary on several occasions that there was
10 sniping activity and that these were BH army snipers. Do you know whether
11 they also had in their possession Dragonov-type sniper rifles?
12 A. I do not know, sir.
13 Q. Do you know whether they had precision weapons?
14 A. Yes, sir, they did.
15 Q. Do you know whether there would be -- they were able to work with
16 a factory that was manufacturing optical equipment, the factory was called
18 A. That sounds familiar, but I couldn't say for sure.
19 Q. Thank you, sir.
20 Now, do you know whether sniper units were, and I mean BH army
21 snipers, whether they were active in the city of Sarajevo itself?
22 A. Yes, sir, they were.
23 Q. Sir, do you know whether when there were incidents, sniping
24 incidents, it was sometimes very difficult to find out the origin of the
25 shot, bearing in mind the positions and the combat, as well as the sniping
2 A. Yes, sir, that is common.
3 Q. Therefore, when people were injured, for instance, in the city of
4 Sarajevo, it is not always obvious to say that such and such an incident
5 was caused by a shot which came from such and such a zone, when we bear in
6 mind these difficulties that I just mentioned earlier?
7 A. Yes, sir, unless it's specifically investigated, yes, sir.
8 Q. Thank you for your answer, sir.
9 Sir, do you know whether women were members of the BH army?
10 A. Yes, sir, they were.
11 Q. Sir, did you personally have knowledge of very young children,
12 under the age of mobilisation, who would have been members of units that
13 were parallel to army units?
14 A. Only on the Serb side, sir.
15 Q. Never on the Muslim side?
16 A. I had no personal knowledge of it. I had heard of it, but no
17 personal knowledge of it, yes, sir.
18 Q. Did you, yourself, with your own eyes see such children?
19 A. Not on the Muslim side, no, sir.
20 Q. Sir, is it true that in some locations the area of the trenches
21 was evacuated of civilian citizens?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Sir, was this in most cases or was this an exception?
24 A. I would say that was in most cases.
25 Q. Sir, do you know of a technique used by the Sarajevo forces, that
1 is the Muslim forces, which consisted of provocations by placing mobile
2 military targets near UN bases in order to provoke shooting from the other
4 A. That is correct, yes.
5 Q. Sir, was this a frequent occurrence?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Could you tell us of one or two cases that you know of?
8 A. The position Papa 5, "Papa," being the UNMOs on the Presidency
9 side, was hit frequently, directly, and I know of reports by my colleagues
10 that showed Muslim forces had parked weaponry, especially mortars, beside
11 their position, beside the UNMO positions, and fired from nearby.
12 Q. Sir, thank you for your answer.
13 Does the name Zetra suggest anything to you?
14 A. The only thing -- it rings a vague bell, is a stadium. I'm sorry.
15 Q. Yes, that is it. Did you know whether Zetra was converted to a
16 warehouse by Muslim forces and that they put explosives in there?
17 A. I don't know that personally, sir. I had heard that, though.
18 Q. Sir, who did you hear this from, please?
19 A. I suspect I heard it in the UNMO headquarters in the PTT. From
20 whom, I couldn't say.
21 Q. Sir, did it occur relatively frequently that there were combats in
22 the city? And when I say "the city," I don't mean the centre of the city,
23 but perhaps the peripheral areas.
24 A. Frequently, yes, sir.
25 Q. Sir, as a military expert, these combats or fighting, could they
1 provoke loss of life by particularly -- specifically speaking, stray
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Is this something more than theoretical, something that actually
5 happens in practice?
6 A. It actually happens. It's called collateral damage, sir.
7 Q. Thank you very much. And this could happen relatively
9 A. It does happen relatively frequently, if there are civilians in
10 the area.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you conclude your
12 cross-examination in a couple of minutes now.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It will happen immediately,
14 Mr. President.
15 Q. Sir, to finish, you said earlier when I read out a passage from
16 your diary, you indicated - and this is quoting from memory - that "Muslim
17 funeral was shelled" and there was a full stop. "News blame Serbs for
18 that." Full stop. Not sure.
19 I believe more or less what you indicated in your diary, could you
20 confirm this?
21 A. My intention with that was there were strong indications that that
22 particular shelling had come from the Muslim side on to their own people.
23 Q. Sir, you were just telling me that the Muslim party fired on their
24 own soldiers or citizens while there was a funeral going on of their own
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that is not what the witness said.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I do not see -- what the witness said is there was
4 strong indications that a particular shelling had come from the Muslim
5 side on to their own people.
6 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, it is different from saying that
7 it was an absolute fact.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Q. Now, sir, are you trying to tell me that according to what you
11 personally knew, there was a strong probability that the Muslim forces had
12 fired on their fellow citizens during a funeral; is that what we are
13 supposed to understand?
14 A. That is correct, sir.
15 Q. Was that in a cemetery that was also known as the Lion Cemetery?
16 A. I don't know the name of the cemetery, sir.
17 Q. Was that a cemetery that was located near the stadium that we
18 mentioned earlier, near the Zetra stadium?
19 A. I would say towards that end of the city, as I recall. Close to
20 the stadium, I don't know, sir.
21 Q. That is -- very well.
22 Were you, sir, the only one, as far as you know, to believe, or to
23 suppose, that the Muslim forces may have opened fire on their own fellow
24 citizens who were in the process of having a funeral?
25 A. No, sir. That was a common thought by the UNMOs, most UNMOs.
1 Q. When you say most of the UNMOs believed that, you mean
2 high-ranking specialists like yourself?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions, Mr.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I take it that the Prosecution would have
7 some questions, yes.
8 MR. IERACE: That is so, Mr. President. There is an issue I would
9 wish to raise too, before I commence re-examination, in the absence of the
10 witness. It would take a matter of seconds.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you want to re-examine the witness and if
12 there would be any remaining questions from the Bench, we have to adjourn
13 until tomorrow.
14 Perhaps -- would it be something you could deal with tomorrow
15 morning, Mr. Ierace, before, or would you prefer to deal with the issues
16 in the absence of the witness right away?
17 MR. IERACE: The latter, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So you would like to raise the issue at this very
20 Mr. Henneberry, may I then ask you to come back in the same
21 courtroom tomorrow morning at 9.00? And the usher will now escort you out
22 of the courtroom.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you not to -- to refrain from any contact
25 with the officials of the Office of the Prosecutor?
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, do we have to turn into closed session?
5 MR. IERACE: No. Mr. President, I simply wish to draw to your
6 attention and the attention of the Defence that now the cross-examination
7 of Mr. Henneberry has concluded, I note that it has not been put to him
8 that the substance of the words attributed by him to the accused were
9 false. In other words, it has not been put to him that those words in
10 fact were not said. I am mindful of the interim ruling in relation to
11 Rule 90. I draw it to the attention of the Trial Chamber at this stage
12 because if it should transpire that the Defence denies at some later stage
13 of the trial that those words were said, then it should be put to the
14 witness at this stage. In other words, the witness should be given an
15 opportunity to respond to that pursuant to Rule 90. Thank you, Mr.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I believe
19 that there is an important cultural shock here in the Australian culture
20 which is obviously not the French culture. I believe that I was very
21 clear, very clear, when I cross-examined this witness at length in order
22 to ask a number of questions and testing the credibility of the witness.
23 It is obvious that every time I used the word "allegedly," "supposedly,"
24 and it is obvious that the Defence is contesting that these words were
1 Now, if every time we have to say we are contesting such and such
2 words that have been allegedly spoken, when we -- when we ask questions,
3 it is going to take even more time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...much time. As a
5 matter of fact, what I understand from Mr. Ierace is that it just points
6 at the possible consequences for the Defence if not -- let's just say
7 simply if not this one explanation would be given. "If it is the case of
8 the Defence that General Galic never said so and so, so, therefore, would
9 you still stay with your testimony in respect of what he said?" I think
10 that is -- doesn't take much time. One can pronounce it in 30 seconds.
11 So I think the Prosecution quite fairly has drawn the attention of the
12 Chamber and, of course, at the same time, also of the Defence, that this
13 was not done.
14 I do understand that this is caused by your understanding and your
15 tradition, where in the civil law tradition, this is not usually done in a
16 similar way, and the Chamber will consider how to deal with this very
18 Mr. Ierace, if the Chamber would allow, but then perhaps just as
19 briefly as I did it, the Prosecution -- the Defence to respect in this way
20 Rule 90(H), would that be opposed by the Prosecution?
21 MR. IERACE: Not at all, Mr. President. That would be quite
22 acceptable to the Prosecution and, also, if it is the case in relation to
23 the substance of what the witness had to say about Major Indjic, but that
24 would suffice. It simply makes clear what is in issue and what is not.
25 I raise it in relation to General Galic because it is in a class of its
1 own compared to the evidence which has gone before. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps knowing that the Prosecution would not
3 oppose it can be done in such a way that it would not take much time,
4 perhaps the Defence could consider overnight whether they want to ask
5 permission to do so tomorrow.
6 We will adjourn until 9.00 tomorrow morning.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
8 1.55.p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
9 the 22nd day of May, at 9.00 a.m.