1 Monday, 27 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Before I give the opportunity to the Defence to cross-examine

10 Mr. Cutler, I would like to make a few observations. First of all, it

11 might be that there will be some slight changes in the schedule for the

12 hearings. This is not definite yet, but I thought it better to inform

13 the parties right away so that at least they can prepare for it, that

14 could result in the Chamber sitting on the Monday, the 3rd of June, not

15 during the usual half day hours, but during the whole day, according to

16 the schedule we often used in the beginning, that is from 9.30 to 1.00 and

17 from 2.30 p.m. to 4.00. It is not sure yet, but we might change the

18 schedule. And another possible change in the schedule might be that we

19 would be sitting on Monday, the 17th of June, according to the same

20 schedule, that is 9.30 to 1.00 and then 2.30 to 4.00, but then we would

21 not sit on Tuesday.

22 But if there would be so, sitting during the Monday a bit longer

23 and not on Tuesday, if there is any definitive decision on that, the

24 Chamber will immediately inform you.

25 Then another issue we still have to decide upon is a request

1 made by Mr. Ierace on the 23rd of May. He asked whether in respect of the

2 report of Richard Philips, whether all the hard copies of the relevant

3 excerpts should be provided with the report of Mr. Philips. The documents

4 are referred in a rather long list of references, a 63-page document. The

5 question was whether all these, the hard copies of those documents should

6 be provided to the Chamber with the report. At this very moment, the

7 Chamber doesn't think that it is necessary to tender all these documents.

8 It would be an enormous pile of documents, but, of course, if the parties

9 would refer, specifically refer, to one of these documents or

10 rely on one of these documents, then they would have to be tendered

11 additionally. As far as the Chamber understands, both parties have all

12 these documents. So that is an answer to a request made by Mr. Ierace.

13 Mr. Mundis, I take it that you will communicate this to Mr.

14 Ierace. I think we are then at the point -- perhaps not.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Just one matter of clarification, if I may, Mr.

16 President. When you say that we would not sit on Tuesday, are you

17 referring only to Tuesday, the 18th of June?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Just that one Tuesday. So we will sit on Monday, the

19 17th, and not on Tuesday, the 18th.

20 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Your

22 Honour, the Defence only wants to inform the Trial Chamber - of course

23 with your permission - that we would both like to interrogate the witness

24 Cutler, in which would be more efficient, and we will only take the time

25 that the examination-in-chief took. Thank you.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic. It seems that you already

2 know what is on my mind now and then.

3 Then, please, Mr. Usher -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. You know

5 what I have on mine for sure. I have already managed to block my machine

6 and I need some assistance, some technical assistance. My machine has

7 already crashed.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Is it crashed or is it disconnected?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, that might be a

10 translation problem, I don't know. I can't use it any more.

11 JUDGE ORIE: While one of the -- one of those in the technical

12 booth can assist -- while he is assisting Mr. Piletta-Zanin, perhaps at

13 the same time, could Mr. Usher escort Mr. Cutler into the courtroom.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 WITNESS: JAMES PHILIPE CUTLER [Resumed]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Cutler. Please be seated. May I

17 remind you, Mr. Cutler, that you are still bound by the solemn declaration

18 you gave at the beginning of your testimony.

19 Before we continue, I wonder, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is your technical

20 problem such that we could not continue at this moment or --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Please continue,

22 Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cutler, you will be cross-examined by counsel for

24 the Defence and simultaneously some computer work will be done for the

25 Defence.

1 Ms. Pilipovic, is it you who will start?

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cutler, good day.

7 A. Good day.

8 Q. Mr. Cutler, in the course of examination-in-chief, you told us

9 that you held the post of Senior Military Observer in the former

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, in Sarajevo, on the 21st of December,

11 1992. You assumed this post on that date; is that correct?

12 A. I assumed the appointment -- I arrived in Sarajevo on the 21st of

13 December, assumed the post on the 26th of December, the day that

14 Lieutenant-Colonel Mole departed.

15 Q. Thank you. When you say that Mr. Mole left, could you tell us

16 whether Mr. Mole informed you about the situation in Sarajevo? And when I

17 say, "informed you about the situation in Sarajevo," I am referring to the

18 positions of the warring factions in Sarajevo and the positions of the

19 heavy artillery which was in the possession of the warring factions in

20 Sarajevo.

21 A. Yes, he did inform me in general terms, not the exact positions

22 because I went on my familiarisation tour to check that for myself, under

23 his arrangements, which I was very grateful for.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cutler. Could you confirm whether at the position

25 that you took over from Mr. Mole, was Mr. Grier at that position before

1 Mr. Mole, another person from New Zealand? Do you know anything about

2 this?

3 A. Not as it is spelled there, G-r-i-e-r. In fact, it is G-r-a-y.

4 It was a Lieutenant-Colonel Gray, if that is the person you are referring

5 to.

6 Q. Yes, Mr. Cutler, thank you. Mr. Cutler, in the course of the

7 examination-in-chief, you told us that one of your tasks as a United

8 Nations observer, one of your tasks, according to the mandate, was to

9 monitor and to report on the agreement that had to do with weapons

10 concentration areas; is that correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. Mr. Cutler, were you aware of the fact that Mr. Gray, while he had

13 his mandate up until September 1992, were you aware of the fact that he

14 signed the weapons concentration agreement, the heavy weapons

15 concentration agreement, in Sarajevo, of collecting the weapons, heavy

16 weapons in Sarajevo and its surroundings, and he signed this agreement

17 with representatives of the warring factions, to be more specific, he

18 signed this agreement with the Muslim and the Serbian side? Are you aware

19 of the fact that such an agreement was signed?

20 A. Yes, I was aware that there was an agreement for Sarajevo, heavy

21 weapons concentration on both sides.

22 Q. When you tell us that you were aware of this, could you tell us

23 whether you had the opportunity of having a look at this agreement, having

24 a look at the agreement in its written form?

25 A. Yes, I do recall seeing that agreement.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has a

2 sufficient number of copies of this agreement that Mr. Cutler has been

3 telling us about. We would like this agreement to be presented. It was

4 made on the 15th of June 1992, and it was signed by Stjepan Siber,

5 representing the Bosnia and Herzegovina side, and Mr. Radovan Karadzic

6 signed it on behalf of the Serbian side. Could Mr. Cutler confirm whether

7 this is the agreement in question, whether this is -- whether these are

8 the agreements that were implemented. I have marked with 109 the copy,

9 both the copy signed by Mr. Karadzic and the copy signed by Mr.

10 Stjepan Siber, and there are a sufficient number of copies.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Might the interpreters be given a copy as well.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, do you have copies for the

13 interpreters as well or are you not going to --

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't make any

15 copies for the interpreters, but I do think there are enough copies for

16 the interpreters, if necessary.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If you would like to be -- part of the document be

18 read, then of course we have two D109s.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is -- yes, Your

20 Honour. Since we are dealing with two agreements at the same time, I have

21 marked this with a number so that it is all under one number, since it is

22 an agreement which was signed on the same day. But it was signed with

23 Mr. Gray, Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Siber. If necessary, I will mark all those

24 documents -- I'll mark one document with the number 109 and the other one

25 with the number 110, but I think it is clear like this.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps 109 for the -- may I call it the Siber

2 copy and 109B for the Karadzic copy? That is Karadzic is 89 until 91 and

3 109 being 92 until 94.

4 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Cutler, you have two documents in front of you, or rather, two

7 agreements dated the 15th of June. On the other side of the document, if

8 you have a look at document 109, it's been signed by Mr. Radovan Karadzic

9 and by Mr. Gray.

10 A. Yes, I see that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I see no signatures, just indicated that where I

12 would expect a signature, but is that --

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I just wanted to

14 ask the witness.

15 Q. Mr. Cutler, are the names for the Serbian side, the name of Dr.

16 Radovan Karadzic, and on behalf of UNPROFOR, has it been signed by Mr.

17 Gray? Can you see these two names, the name of Mr. Karadzic and of

18 Mr. Gray in one of the documents?

19 A. Yes, I see the names but no signatures. I thought the document I

20 had seen included -- I thought General MacKenzie had actually signed the

21 heavy weapons agreement, but I may be confusing it with the airport

22 agreement. However, I accept the fact that those two names appear.

23 Q. Yes, Mr. Cutler. And at the same time, the agreement on the

24 airport was signed -- it was signed by Mr. MacKenzie.

25 Mr. Cutler, the second document that you have in front of you, it

1 says that the parties involved in this agreement, Mr. Stjepan Siber for

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on behalf of UNPROFOR, Lieutenant-Colonel Gray.

3 Mr. Cutler, could you tell us whether within the framework of

4 these agreements you, as a member of the United Nations who held the post

5 of Senior Military Observer, did you implement this agreement with respect

6 to the concentration of weapons?

7 A. I very much tried to implement the agreement, but because there

8 was a -- what I considered to be a war going on, this was not an easy

9 task.

10 Q. Mr. Cutler, when we speak about these two documents, if I tell you

11 that Mr. Gray in his statement which he gave to investigators for the

12 Prosecution on the 4th and 5th of May, 1995, this document is 0090318, and

13 I am going to paraphrase part of the statement given by Mr. Gray,

14 according to which these agreements did not enter into force because the

15 United Nations did not recognise Mr. Karadzic as a party who could

16 participate in negotiations and in the signing of this agreement.

17 This -- are you aware of this conclusion and can you accept that

18 it is correct?

19 A. I recall that there was a lot of criticism about both the airport

20 agreement and the heavy weapons concentration agreement. I wasn't aware

21 of what you have just said. On Friday, I regarded the weapon -- heavy

22 weapons concentration as being a loose agreement, and that is how I

23 regarded it.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cutler. Mr. Cutler, if we have a look at item two

25 in both agreements, both items start with the words: "All heavy weapons."

1 And that is for both sides; is that correct? Is that how item two begins?

2 A. Yes, it is. If we have a look at item number 4 in both

3 agreements, the text starts with the following words: "All artilleries,

4 mortars, tanks, armoured personnel carriers and rocket launchers, rocket

5 systems, surface-to-surface, they shall be collected and placed under the

6 control of UNPROFOR."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I am quite glad you gave us two copies

8 of the agreement. One of them mentions under four armoured personnel

9 carriers, the other one not, however. So I don't know to what -- which of

10 the two agreements you refer. I think 109A it might be a translation

11 problem, but not of our translators, of course. I don't know whether you

12 have any original version available which could clarify the issue.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you.

14 The document I have was signed by Mr. Stjepan Siber. It says,

15 "armoured personnel carriers" under item 4 for the document signed by

16 Radovan Karadzic, so this is an original translation of those documents.

17 It says: "rocket systems surface-to-surface and tanks." So it doesn't

18 mention armoured personnel carriers, and that is the difference in item 4

19 of this agreement.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the interpreters apologise, but

21 could we have a copy of the agreement, please?

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Cutler, is this correct?

24 A. No, I can't find the words "rocket systems" anywhere there, I'm

25 sorry. I've got ground to ground --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Copies will be provided to the booth.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Cutler, since we are speaking about item 4 of this agreement,

4 which we have in front of us, could you tell us, when you took up your

5 duties on the 26th of December within the framework of this agreement, was

6 the role of observers which was to observe these weapons,

7 was this role functioning?

8 A. Yes, this role was functioning and functioning quite well, but I

9 was not convinced that all weapons were being monitored.

10 Q. When you say that you weren't convinced that all the weapons were

11 under control, are you also -- do you have both sides in mind when you say

12 this?

13 A. Yes, I have both sides in mind when I say this.

14 Q. In item 6 of this agreement of the document signed by Mr. -- we

15 can see that within the framework of this agreement signed by Mr. Siber in

16 item 6, we can see that --

17 Can you hear me now?

18 A. Yes, thank you.

19 Q. In item 6 of this agreement signed by Mr. Siber, we can see that

20 the Bosnian agreement agrees to up to 35 UNPROFOR personnel, and for the

21 Serbian side, that the Serbian side agrees that up to 40 UNPROFOR

22 personnel. Was item 6 of this agreement implemented in this manner?

23 A. Paragraph 6, what I am reading, says 35 personnel, not 40. And it

24 says: "residing at a building located next to the Presidency."

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cutler, I think the question was about both the

1 copies of the agreement and it might be a bit misleading, but one is the

2 agreement between the President of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

3 and --

4 THE WITNESS: Correct.

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- Colonel Stjepan Siber, and the other party to the

6 agreement, Colonel Gray. The only one, however, is the agreement on

7 behalf of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, name of Dr.

8 Radovan Karadzic, and signed on behalf of UNPROFOR, at least if signed, by

9 Lieutenant-Colonel Gray. So we are talking about two different

10 agreements, one of them mentioning 35, the other one mentioning 40.

11 Please continue your answer.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Yes, that is correct. The only difference is, it says, on the

14 Bosnian side, 35 personnel residing at the building located next to the

15 Presidency. On the Serbian agreement, it says up to 40 UNPROFOR personnel

16 residing at Lukavica barracks. Well, in fact, when this was

17 signed or drafted or interpreted, I am not too sure that was the intent

18 because, in fact, the 40 personnel being correct were spread over on the

19 Serbian side -- was spread over a number of observation posts and, of

20 course, inside Sarajevo on the Presidency side, they were spread over

21 a small headquarters and three observation posts within the city. So

22 there is a difference from what is in the documents and what was actually

23 on the ground when I took up my duties.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cutler.

1 When you answered this question and speaking about this agreement,

2 were you aware whether the sides that participated in negotiations, in

3 order to sign this agreement, did these sides have any knowledge about

4 whether the United Nations recognised this agreement or not?

5 A. I am not too sure I understand the question. As to the validity

6 as of the agreement, I regarded it as a use agreement. Unless you wish to

7 question me more on that because I am not too sure I understood the

8 question.

9 Q. Mr. Cutler, my question was -- had to do with the implementation

10 of the agreement and refer to the fact of whether if you were aware during

11 the negotiations and during contacts with both sides, both the Bosnian

12 side and the Serbian side, whether you were aware that the parties that

13 took part in the conclusion of this agreement, were they aware of the fact

14 that the UN had not recognised that agreement?

15 A. No, I am not aware of that during the negotiation phase at all.

16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Cutler, by -- in both agreements, in item 1, a

17 ceasefire has been noted.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Are you aware that the sides respected the agreement in terms of

20 the agreed ceasefire?

21 A. During my time in Sarajevo, from the day I arrived until I left, I

22 did not consider that there was a ceasefire in Sarajevo.

23 Q. Were you informed during your mandate until your arrival, whether

24 the Bosnian side had undertaken certain offensive action which whereby the

25 ceasefire agreement had been -- had been not respected?

1 A. Not specifically, but I am aware that both the Bosnian and the

2 Serb side had not respected the agreement.

3 Q. Mr. Cutler, if I tell you that the Bosnian side, following June

4 15th, in July and August, took up the Jug offensive and then the Koverat

5 offensive, were you aware that the Bosnian side had undertaken such

6 offensive action?

7 A. I was generally aware that there had been offensive actions within

8 Sarajevo, but I really can't comment because I was not there at that time.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cutler.

10 Mr. Cutler, when we discussed the concentration of heavy weapons,

11 during your mandate, can you tell us which locations were under the

12 control of the BH army and which had the greatest concentration of heavy

13 weapons?

14 A. During my initial days prior to Lieutenant-Colonel Mole leaving, I

15 outlined on Friday that I visited all sites within Sarajevo. Not too

16 distant from Papas 4, 5 and 6, there were weapons concentrations, mainly

17 82-millimetre mortars. I saw one tank and I saw, at the Olympic stadium,

18 in the tunnels that would have obviously gone underneath the stadium at

19 one stage before it was collapsed, several mortars. So to answer the

20 question, yes, I did see the concentration of weapons within Sarajevo, and

21 I admit to being very surprised that I did not see that many weapons.

22 Q. Mr. Cutler, you answered the question about concentration of

23 weapons which was at the Papa 4 observation points, Papa 4 and 2 -- 4, 5

24 and 6.

25 Mr. Cutler, can you tell us what the concentration of weapons at

1 Papa 1, Papa 2, and Papa 3 observation posts?

2 A. Papas 1, 2, and 3 did not exist when I took up my post. I have

3 got a vague idea where they were, but they were not manned observation

4 posts when I arrived in Sarajevo.

5 Q. So you cannot tell us about that part of the town which was in the

6 Papa 1, 2, and 3 observation posts and you cannot tell us about the

7 concentration weapons of the BH army because you say such observation

8 posts did not exist at the time?

9 A. I can only tell you what I saw on my visits. Papas 1, 2, and 3

10 were not manned and did not exist when I arrived in Sarajevo.

11 Q. Mr. Cutler, so you cannot exclude the possibility of the existence

12 of the BH army in that part of the town and that they had heavy weapons?

13 A. To which part of the town are you referring, please?

14 Q. I am referring to the eastern part of the town.

15 A. Well, Papa 6 was in the south-eastern part of the town and I did

16 see some weapons not too far from that location.

17 Q. As for the area of the town where the Egyptian battalion was

18 located, subsequently, I am talking about the western part of the town,

19 Bistrik and Velika part of the town where later on the Papa 1, 3, and 2

20 were stationed, can you tell us what the concentration of weapons was in

21 that part of town?

22 A. As I said before, I have no knowledge of Papas 1, 2, and 3, and as

23 for where the Egyptian battalion was in Tito barracks, there was not a

24 weapons concentration close to that site when I was in Sarajevo, to my

25 knowledge.

1 Q. So you are saying that there were no weapons nearby those sites,

2 but can you tell us what were the army formations of the B and H, how were

3 they deployed in that part of the town?

4 A. From recollection, the ABiH army in the whole of Sarajevo was

5 organised into about 10 brigades, and I think they may have been, when I

6 left, trying to raise another one. As to specifically in that part of the

7 town, are you talking about around Tito barracks or where are you talking

8 about, please?

9 Q. Mr. Cutler, the Egyptian Battalion had Papa 1 near the barracks

10 -- near the part of the town called Bistrik, where there was also barracks

11 where Papa 3 was located, the -- of the Egyptian Battalion. That was the

12 part of the town above Colina Kapa, Velika Colina Kapa. These were hills

13 under the control of the B and H army.

14 A. Yes, thank you, I am aware of the area, but again I have no

15 knowledge and cannot speak about Papas 1, 2 or 3. They did not exist when

16 I was in Sarajevo. I was in Sarajevo from December 1992 to the 15th of

17 March, 1993. So I do not know where Papas 1, 2 and 3 were. They did not

18 exist under my command.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please proceed to another

20 subject. We have heard five times now that the witness did not know

21 about Papa 1, 2 or 3. So perhaps could you ask him something that he

22 knows about?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has asked

24 this question quite consciously because we are trying to get an answer

25 from Mr. Cutler.

1 Q. In regard to that part of the town, Mr. Cutler, you did not

2 receive information as to what was going on in that part of town because

3 there were no observation posts there at the time?

4 A. Thank you for clarifying that. The only thing I can recall in

5 relation to the Egyptian Battalion Tito barracks was the fact that the

6 Bosnians, more than once, fired mobile mortars from the location of those

7 barracks. That is about the only information that I can give you in

8 relation to Bosnian army activities in that vicinity.

9 Q. Mr. Cutler, when you talked about weapons in the Papa 4, 5 and 2

10 areas, from Papa 4, that apparently there was a tank passing.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, just for the sake of the transcript

12 and the translation, the transcript says 4, 5 and 2. It is my

13 recollection that Mr. Cutler said that he saw 4, 5, and 6, as you also

14 repeated before. And then --

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

18 Q. Papa 4. The position of Papa 4, you said that there was a tank in

19 the vicinity?

20 A. Papa 4 would be -- it was on the north central side of Sarajevo,

21 about halfway up the hill, had good observation down into the city. Down

22 below Papa 4 some 400 or 500 metres, I was shown -- which was one of the

23 Bosnian army concentration areas, I saw a tank. In fact, I was invited to

24 go and see it. They were trying to get it going. It was not well

25 maintained and they didn't think they would be able to maintain it for

1 much longer because of spare part problems.

2 Q. Mr. Cutler, can you confirm whether in the area of Papa 4 where

3 the tank was located, in that part of the town, there was also the Kosevo

4 stadium and the Kosevo hospital as well as the Zetra hall?

5 A. Yes. We are talking some distances between those three things

6 but, essentially, they were in the northern part of Sarajevo. Kosevo

7 hospital, the Olympic stadium and Papa 4 were within the same geographic

8 area.

9 Q. Mr. Cutler, were you informed that at the Kosevo stadium, the B

10 and H army had its mortars positioned?

11 A. Yes. As I told you before, I actually saw some mortars at that

12 location.

13 Q. Mr. Cutler, when we spoke about Papa 5 observation post, can you

14 confirm that Papa 5 was near the PTT building, in that part of the town?

15 A. The Papa 5 was directly due north of the PTT building by about

16 2.500 metres perhaps -- between 2000 and 2.500 metres. Papa 5 was on the

17 southerly slopes of the feature known as Zuc.

18 Q. Mr. Cutler, when we spoke about heavy weapons of the BH army,

19 during your mandate, were you informed that, at Alipasino Polje, there

20 were two tanks used by the BH army?

21 A. That location Alipasino Polje, I am not familiar with, but I

22 understand there were a maximum of four or five tanks belonging to the

23 Bosnian army within inside Sarajevo.

24 Q. Mr. Cutler, if I tell you that Mr. Jackson, Brian Jackson, who as

25 observer of the UN spent time in Sarajevo on July 24th, 1992 until January

1 1993, and in his statement given to the OTP on June 26th, he said that the

2 BH army had two tanks in Alipasino Polje, would you agree with me that

3 that piece of information or statement by Mr. Brian Jackson is correct?

4 A. The fact that I knew or had been told that there were four or five

5 tanks within Sarajevo, I could not dispute what that United Nations

6 military observer said. I am not, however, familiar with the name of the

7 place you just mentioned.

8 Q. Mr. Cutler, if I tell you that Alipasino Polje is parallel with

9 the Lukavica road in the area of Nedzarici and Dobrinja, near the Mojmilo

10 hill, could this help you in orienting yourself?

11 A. Yes, thank you. I am familiar with Mojmilo hill. I was not aware

12 that there were any Bosnian army tanks on that hill or near that hill.

13 Q. If I tell you that Mr. Brian Jackson noted in his statement that

14 there were two tanks in that area, can you say that this information is

15 correct? Can you confirm that this piece of information is correct?

16 A. I can't confirm what Mr. Jackson said. All I know is that I was

17 not aware there were any tanks at that location.

18 Q. Mr. Cutler, when we spoke about heavy weapons of the BH army,

19 during the examination-in-chief and in your statement to the Prosecution,

20 you said that you had visited the Igman mountain. Is that true?

21 A. Yes, I visited there three times, I think.

22 Q. Mr. Cutler, can you tell us whether in that part of the Igman

23 mountain that you visited, you visited the units of the BH army?

24 A. During my first visit which I had clearance for, I was only

25 authorised to visit what was known as the "forward headquarters" of ABiH

1 brigade that was going to be located on Igman. During that visit, and in

2 discussions with a Lieutenant-Colonel Medo, M-e-d-o, I asked him if next

3 time I visited, I would be allowed to visit some units in that location,

4 and he said he would see.

5 In subsequent visits, I asked if I could visit units and it was

6 the preference that I did not.

7 Q. Mr. Cutler, can you confirm to us whether on February 2, 1993,

8 from Mr. Marcetic, who was commander of the headquarters of the Sarajevo

9 Romanija Corps, that you received information as to the concentration of

10 heavy weapons on Mount Igman?

11 A. Yes, Colonel Marcetic gave me that letter which was tabled on

12 Friday. I accepted that letter from him.

13 Q. Mr. Cutler, if the counsel of the Defence shows you that letter,

14 could you refresh your recollection and confirm that the weapons that were

15 located on Igman were weapons that you had seen when you visited the area

16 on the basis of the letter that we have?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We would like to give the letter

18 to Mr. Cutler, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please assist, Mr. Usher.

20 THE REGISTRAR: D110.

21 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, Ms. Pilipovic, before you

22 continue, you asked the witness to confirm that the weapons that were

23 located on Igman were weapons that you had seen when you visited the area,

24 on the basis of the letter that we have. This suggests that, on the basis

25 of the letter we have, we could conclude that the weapons had been seen by

1 the witness. Of course, I had no time to study the letter in great detail

2 but, at first sight, it indicates nothing of this kind.

3 So would you please -- perhaps it is a matter of the formulation

4 of the question, whether you would like to refresh the memory of the

5 witness and ask him whether, having looked at this letter, he had seen any

6 of the weaponry mentioned in this letter during his visits on Mount Igman,

7 which is a totally different question from the one you put.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that was exactly

9 what I had in mind when asking the question.

10 Q. Mr. Cutler, you have before you a letter. In the left-hand

11 corner, it was actually addressed to Colonel Cutler; is that correct?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Mr. Cutler, does it carry the date February 2, 1993 in the

14 right-hand corner? Mr. Cutler, under number 10 [as interpreted] of that

15 letter, you have mentioned weapons that was located in Igman and

16 information was given to that effect by Mr. Marcetic; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that is correct, this letter was handed to me by

18 Colonel Marcetic.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you are referring -- at least the

20 translation says that under number 10. I see two series of numbers, the

21 one going up to 9, the second one up to 7, or is there any translation

22 problem?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said number 9. I

24 said from 1 to 9.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is in the transcript, yes.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is not number 10, it is

2 number 9. That is how it says in the document.

3 Q. Mr. Cutler, following your visit to Igman, were you able to see

4 those weapons?

5 A. When I got this letter from Colonel Marcetic, I marked the grid

6 references on my map. Fortunately, it covered the area of Mount Igman.

7 When I visited Mount Igman, I never saw one weapon, except individual

8 rifles that were carried by the few soldiers that I did see. I saw,

9 whilst driving up the winding hill up to Mount Igman, many positions that

10 had been cut in the trees that I thought could well be used for gun or

11 mortar positions, but I have not seen any of those guns or mortars.

12 Q. Mr. Cutler, after assuming your duty and during your mandate, in

13 addition to Mr. Marcetic who received -- who gave you this information,

14 did you receive information from other people, from your associates, as to

15 the effect that heavy weapons of the BH army were located on Mount Igman?

16 A. No. Really, the only information I had was what Colonel Marcetic

17 had given me. Although I must add that we suspected that there were

18 ABiH weapons on Mount Igman.

19 Q. Mr. Cutler, did you have any information about the units which

20 were located in Igman? Did you know whether the 4th Hrasnica Brigade was

21 positioned in Igman?

22 A. I was told that the position was a brigade position, and during my

23 first visit, that it had not properly moved into the area. The word "4th

24 brigade" comes to mind as possibly the brigade, but I cannot confirm that

25 without referring to my notes.

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1 Q. Mr. Cutler, could you tell us or, rather, could you confirm that

2 during the period of your mandate the so-called 7th Mujahedin [Realtime

3 transcript read in error "Motorised"] Brigade was also in the Igman area?

4 A. No, I cannot confirm that. That title of that unit, the 7th

5 Motorised Brigade, doesn't come to mind.

6 Q. Mr. Cutler, the Defence didn't say "Motorised Brigade," it said

7 the "7th Mujahedin Brigade." Did you have any information about this

8 brigade being in the Igman mountain?

9 A. Sorry, I was reading the screen and it said the "7th Motorised

10 Brigade." You now say the "7th Mujahedin Brigade." No, I have not heard

11 that, however, I had heard that the brigade possibly consisted or had in

12 it what we commonly call mercenaries. I have got no confirmation of that.

13 I was just told that and I can't recall by who.

14 Q. I apologise. I didn't hear the end of the response, "I was only

15 told that...."

16 Mr. Cutler, during the period of your mandate in Sarajevo, were

17 you aware of "Operation Container"?

18 A. The answer to that is vaguely. I am not too sure if you are

19 referring to the containers that were used to guard against sniping in the

20 centre part of town or the container that kept appearing on the bridge

21 going to the airport.

22 Q. Mr. Cutler, I am not talking about the containers which had been

23 positioned as a defence against snipers and which were used by the warring

24 factions. I will remind you of what I am talking about. I am talking

25 about Operation Container, the transport of weapons in lorries going to

1 the UNHCR and escorted by UNPROFOR, and this was done in lorries taking

2 humanitarian aid to Sarajevo. During the period of your mandate, were

3 there any such operations of which you are aware?

4 So under the escort of UNPROFOR members, weapons were being taken

5 for the needs of the BH army.

6 A. No. The only incident I am aware of is some -- and I was aware at

7 the time -- I think it was reported by my DSMO, Major Carswell. It was to

8 do with gas bottles that were full of explosives. I understand that was

9 investigated by the United Nations civilian police. I do not know too

10 much detail about that. I am sorry.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I am just -- I thought we were already

12 at the time for the break but we are not. I apologise for that.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Cutler, in the course of the examination-in-chief, you spoke

15 to us about -- you said that in January, the Vice-President of the BH

16 government was killed.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know whether an investigation was initiated by members of

19 the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, given that according to the initial

20 information this was done by a member of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

21 A. I recall just after that incident occurred, the assassination

22 occurred, I think it was the next morning at the 8.30 hours conference

23 that the force commander said it was being investigated by both the United

24 Nations Civilian Police and that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was also

25 conducting their investigation.

1 Q. Mr. Cutler, when you spoke to us in the course of the

2 examination-in-chief about the protests you had addressed to Mr. Marcetic,

3 and we are not speaking about the letters that you sent -- we are not

4 speaking about the letters that you sent Mr. Stanislav Galic with regard

5 to the shelling of the observation posts in regard to the shelling of

6 Papas. We are speaking about the shelling that you mentioned, the

7 shelling of civilian targets. Could you tell us whether these protests

8 were oral or written?

9 A. There was one written letter, from my recollection, in relation to

10 the firing on the Kosevo hospital. Others were verbal.

11 Q. So you are saying that the written document which was sent as a

12 protest to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, the document which has to do with

13 the shelling of the Kosevo hospital, you are saying that all the other

14 protests were verbal protests?

15 A. I sent many letters but the only ones I recall were to

16 General Galic in relation to the shelling of Papa 5, a letter in relation

17 to Kosevo hospital. There were possibly others, but my main protests in

18 relation to sniping, shelling, firing on utilities missions, that I raised

19 with Colonel Marcetic, were verbal, oral.

20 Q. You said that Mr. Marcetic, when you spoke to him, he said that

21 he told you that, "It was war."

22 In your opinion, are such answers by an officer who holds an

23 important position, are such answers acceptable answers?

24 A. No, I don't believe they are acceptable answers, not when it

25 involved the killing or shelling into Sarajevo.

1 Q. Mr. Cutler, on the basis of what you can remember, can you tell us

2 about one of the incidents with regard to which you sent a written report

3 to Mr. Marcetic and which related to the time when you were there as a

4 Senior Military Observer? So the time, the place and the consequence of

5 these results, did you mention this in written form?

6 A. It would have been after the 11th of January would have been the

7 letter on Kosevo hospital. No, I am sorry, it would have been after the

8 29th and 30th of January when the Kosevo hospital was shelled. And a 155

9 millimetre shell as I described on Friday went into the hospital. As I

10 understand it, the only place that shell could have come from was from

11 the Serbian side.

12 Q. Mr. Cutler, in the course of your examination, you said that you

13 did have information about the fact that the BH army had been using mobile

14 mortars which had been positioned next to the Kosevo hospital and that

15 they fired shells from these mortars?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. When we are speaking about such mortars which were positioned

18 next to the hospital, in your opinion, were such mortars legitimate

19 military targets? So were they legitimate military targets on the side

20 of the 1st Corps of the BH army?

21 A. The fact that there was a hospital in the area, no, I don't

22 believe they were legitimate targets because the shells, given the natural

23 tendency of shells to be off-line and bearing and in range, there was a

24 very high likelihood of hitting the hospital.

25 Q. Mr. Cutler, I don't think you have answered my question as to

1 whether the mortars were legitimate military targets.

2 A. I would consider mortars on the front line, not in civilian areas,

3 to be legitimate targets, but not those located near a hospital.

4 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one additional question at this very

5 moment, Mr. Cutler? Would you consider it to be legitimate to put a

6 mortar on hospital ground?

7 THE WITNESS: Under no circumstances, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: So Ms. Pilipovic, what you are actually doing is

9 dragging Mr. Cutler into a rather complex legal debate on whether

10 illegitimate acts would justify answers. I think that, with due respect

11 for Mr. Cutler, that this would be not a wise thing to do. That is the

12 reason why I asked this specific question.

13 Please proceed. Apart from that, Mr. Cutler did answer the

14 question. He said as a matter of fact: "I don't believe they were

15 legitimate targets." And then he gave the reason.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Cutler, when you spoke about the shelling of the airport in

18 February 1993, could you tell us whether you determined who shelled the

19 airport in February 1993 while you were holding your post or, rather,

20 could you first tell us whether you know that the airport was shelled?

21 A. Yes, I covered this in some detail on Friday. I am aware of

22 mortar rounds landing near a French observation post as you enter the

23 airport. If I understand correctly, there was one French soldier who was

24 killed and one was wounded in that incident. Expert crater analysis

25 people were brought in by the sector, sector commander, and the crater

1 analysis revealed that those rounds probably came from a Bosnian mortar.

2 Q. So, Mr. Cutler, you are telling us that the airport was shelled

3 by the BH army forces. Could you tell us from which locations the

4 members of the BH army shelled the airport?

5 A. I am saying only in that particular instance was it concluded that

6 the rounds probably came from an ABiH mortar position. I personally did

7 not see the report. It was done for the sector commander and I have no

8 knowledge where those mortars may have fired from.

9 Q. So, Mr. Cutler, you are telling us that in the airport area, you

10 weren't informed about where the BH army positions were?

11 A. No, I am not saying that at all.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you are misrepresenting the testimony

13 of the witness now several times. Would you please be more precise.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Cutler, with regard to the airport area, could you tell us --

16 could you tell us where the BH army positions were in the area of the

17 airport?

18 A. Well, for a start, the airport as such, the runway, the buildings

19 that were used by the French battalion and by the movement control people

20 of UNPROFOR, there was no ABiH within the confines of that.

21 The front lines were basically on the road to the airport which

22 went parallel to the suburbs of Butmir, Nedzarici; and on the other side

23 of the airport -- wrong. Run parallel to Nedzarici and Dobrinja. And

24 then on the north-western side of the airport, ABiH in Butmir, and that

25 would be where the ABiH front lines would have been located.

1 Q. Mr. Cutler, if I tell you that in the vicinity -- that Hrasnica

2 was also in the vicinity of Butmir but that it also under the control of

3 the BH army, would you agree with that?

4 A. Yes, I would, but it wasn't very close to the airport. It was

5 under the shadow of Mount Igman.

6 Q. Mr. Cutler, during the period of your mandate, were you told why

7 there was no observation posts in Nedzarici?

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, just one more question and then

9 I will have a break.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I was just wondering whether you were touching upon

11 a new subject, but please finish this question.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Cutler, could you tell us whether there was an observation

14 post in Nedzarici?

15 A. I understand that Colonel Gray established a -- an OP in

16 Nedzarici. It was not there when I got there because it was too unsafe

17 where between Nedzarici and Dobrinja, and Nedzarici and the suburb to the

18 north, the front lines were very close, almost straight apart. I

19 understand that Colonel Gray did establish one there early on, but there

20 was not one there when I was there.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cutler.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think this would

23 be a good time to have a break.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will adjourn until 20 minutes past 4.00 and

25 may I indicate, Ms. Pilipovic, there is a little bit less than 50 minutes

1 remaining time.

2 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Before we resume, I take the opportunity to correct

5 myself, and that is one of the advantages of the one-half hour delay in

6 broadcasting. Where I said that it was wise to drag Mr. Cutler in a legal

7 debate, of course, I did intend to say that it was not wise to do so.

8 Is the Defence ready to resume the cross-examination?

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin? Or is it Ms. Pilipovic?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. At your service.

11 Mr. President, thank you.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

13 Q. [Interpretation] As I will allow myself to question you in French,

14 I would like to greet you, first of all. Good day.

15 A. Good day.

16 Q. Very well, thank you. And how are you?

17 A. I am fine, thank you.

18 Q. Very well. Sir, in order to respect the time that we have

19 remaining, in order to respect the time which governs all of us, I am

20 going to ask you to reply to us as briefly as possible and, if possible,

21 to answer "yes" or "no" when answering my questions, when answer questions

22 which can be answered by "yes" or "no."

23 Sir, is it true that your training as a military person involved

24 academic training?

25 A. Yes, to a certain degree, academic training.

1 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, as a superior officer, you were

2 necessarily -- you followed training which -- in international

3 humanitarian law?

4 A. Not at a university level, but certainly, that was part of our

5 training.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, would it be correct to say that members

7 of the military are people who are precise, meticulous, and who in general

8 express themselves briefly?

9 A. Yes, generally speaking.

10 Q. Thank you. And as a result, would it be correct to say that in

11 your statement there is quite a lot of textual precision?

12 A. If you interpret that, yes.

13 Q. Sir, thank you. I want to return to a subject. I think that you

14 stated that in your written statement given to the Office of the

15 Prosecutor, in that statement, you said that in one of the missions of the

16 UN personnel in Sarajevo, it was also necessary to report on anything that

17 was not quite usual; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. Sir, could one depart from the principle -- could one base oneself

20 on the principle that there was a rule, the objective of which was to

21 ensure that any officer who discovered anything that was not normal should

22 report this event and declare that it had taken place?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you very much. I shall now turn to your -- the statement

25 you made on Friday, and I am referring to the willingness of the British

1 sergeant to report to you on a declaration which has to do with mortar

2 shells being fired. Can you remember speaking about this?

3 A. Yes, I remember it well.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Can we base ourselves on the principle that

5 such a reaction, this type of reaction, that is to say the need of

6 immediately informing one's superiors that something abnormal has

7 happened, was this principle something that was the rule?

8 A. Yes, it was.

9 Q. Thank you, Witness.

10 Witness, now I would like to follow a new line of questioning. If

11 I tell you that we have in our proceedings witnesses, at least one

12 witness, and now from the UN family and even from the military observer UN

13 family, stating the following: That it was common practice amongst the

14 military observers first that the Muslims shelled each other during

15 funeral processions. Second --

16 JUDGE ORIE: There may be some misunderstanding. I see in the

17 transcript that --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Themselves. Themselves. Sorry.

19 JUDGE ORIE: No, that it was common practice among the military

20 observers; it is not what you said in French. Could you please repeat

21 what you said in French so we can have it properly translated,

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

24 Q. It was notorious, a notorious fact, that the Muslims shelled each

25 other, if you like, in the following points: During funerals; two, during

1 when they would group together to collect water; when they would assemble

2 to buy bread; four, at marketplaces; and five, when the press was in the

3 area, and this was the case of Markale. What would you say to that

4 statement?

5 A. Sir, I would say the statement is not correct except for one

6 occasion.

7 Q. Would you tell --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it is my recollection that the

9 witness testified that it was about markets, but not Markale specifically

10 asked for it. So -- I don't remember the bread as well but I might be

11 mistaken. Would you be very precise --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was very precise in French.

13 I said it very clearly. I gave thought to the question. When the people

14 of the press were around, as was the case in the Markale situation. We

15 know that the press was present within the framework of Markale. I did

16 not say that the witness had said that the Muslims had fired in the

17 Markale case. My phrase was very clear.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but just before that, you referred to

19 marketplaces and that, of course, is almost asking for confusion,

20 specifically because the witness said that as far as marketplaces was

21 concerned, there was not Markale. So it is rather confusing the way you

22 are doing it. But please proceed. I think the question is clear at least

23 by now.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 Q. Witness, in other words, would you consider these words to have

1 been credible or not so credible?

2 A. If I have the choice between those two statements, it would have

3 to be not so credible.

4 Q. You are saying that the witness that had said that was not a

5 credible witness, is that so?

6 A. No, I am not saying that. I -- any Muslim-on-Muslim fire would

7 have to be proven. Whilst there were many rumours, as I said on Friday, I

8 know of only a few instances where it was almost proved to me that that

9 was the case.

10 Q. Could you quote the case, please?

11 A. Yes. Yes. The incidents that I quoted that I recall that it was

12 very strongly suspected that the Bosnian army fired outside the

13 Presidency, or 100 metres to the west of the Presidency, during the visits

14 of Vance and Owen and Boutros Boutros-Ghali.

15 Q. Witness, thank you for your answer. Do you know in your capacity

16 of officer whether the Muslim forces had mobile equipment capable of

17 transporting mortars?

18 A. Yes. I never saw any myself, but I understand there were several

19 vehicles that were termed to be "mobile mortars." They were on the back

20 of a trailer or the back of a car or some vehicle. I described on Friday

21 the firing of one of those mobile mortars from outside the PTT and I

22 described earlier today the firing of one of those from outside Tito

23 barracks, where the Egyptians were based.

24 Q. Witness, thank you for your answer.

25 Now, could you answer "yes" or "no" to the following question: Do

1 you know where the 102nd unit of Alipasino Polje was stationed? Let's be

2 very accurate. I said the observation post, not units. CC, common

3 control post. Can you answer "yes" or "no"? Do you know where the CC was

4 in Alipasino Polje, the 112th brigade?

5 A. By "CC," are you saying command post?

6 Q. [In English] Command control, yes, correct.

7 A. No.

8 Q. [Interpretation] I would hope that -- please be very precise. Do

9 you know where the command post of the MUP was, Colonel, yes or no?

10 A. No, I don't.

11 Q. Do you know where the Zitsa was?

12 A. Yes, if you are referring to the Olympic stadium.

13 Q. I didn't mention "Zetra," I mentioned "Zitsa."

14 JUDGE ORIE: That is what is in the transcript, Zitsa, as a matter

15 of fact. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I also noticed that in French you are

16 speaking very quickly. So if you ask the interpreters to translate very

17 precise, I think adjustment of your speed would certainly assist them.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 Q. Witness, Zitsa, to be very precise, do you know where Zitsa is?

21 A. I have to say no.

22 Q. Thank you very much. So you don't know what was located there

23 either?

24 A. If you were to tell me what was possibly there, I might recall

25 that, but I don't have any knowledge.

1 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. The same question with regard to

2 Magros?

3 A. The word has not come up on the screen.

4 Q. M-a-g-r-o-s, Magros.

5 A. I have heard the word but, no, I cannot tell you where it is.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Can you tell me the same with regard to

7 Valter Peric?

8 Can you answer yes or no, Witness, please?

9 A. I haven't seen a word like that that's in front of me on the

10 screen.

11 JUDGE ORIE: From the screen, you do not see the word as

12 pronounced by Mr. Piletta-Zanin. He said, "Peric" and he spelled it

13 P-e-r-i-c.

14 THE WITNESS: No.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN:

16 Q. Okay. Same question, please, for Stela. Same question, please,

17 for Stela.

18 A. Other than the fact that it is a brand of beer, no.

19 Q. All right. Okay. Same question for Petar Derik -- Dakic, sorry.

20 Dakic.

21 A. I have seen that -- I have seen that name, but I can't tell you

22 exactly where it is.

23 Q. Okay. Same question for Pale Goranin.

24 A. Yes, that name is familiar to me. The exact location, without a

25 map, I can't say.

1 Q. Same question for Kulin Ban. Kulin Ban?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Same question for Gras, G-r-a-s?

4 A. Yes, I have seen that on a map.

5 Q. So where is it?

6 A. I would suggest it is to the north-west of Sarajevo.

7 Q. [Interpretation] What was there? Please can you tell us what was

8 there?

9 A. I have a suspicion that one of the Lima positions was there, but

10 without a map, I couldn't tell you.

11 Q. Are you sure that it was Lima?

12 A. No, I am not sure.

13 Q. Thank you. Sir, technically, is it true that it is rather -- very

14 difficult to hear the fire of a mortar, rather than -- compared to a

15 gunshot -- artillery shot, sorry?

16 A. Not necessarily. It depends on the topography and the distance

17 from the gun line or the mortar, mortar line.

18 Q. Exactly. It is possible, Witness, that some mortar shells could

19 have passed imperceptibly starting from the interior of Sarajevo?

20 A. Do you mean that they were fired out without being perceived?

21 Q. Exactly.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It is a probability which is a certitude?

24 A. Not a certainty, but it is certainly highly possible.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

1 So consequently it is perfectly probable that shooting from

2 counter-batteries was triggered from Lima following firing from Sarajevo

3 that had not been detected; yes or no?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you for your answer, Colonel.

6 You indicated that you know that there were mobile -- military

7 objectives and that you said that you did not know what was in the list of

8 names that I have just given you. -- If I tell you that the list of names

9 corresponds in all probability to a small number of military objectives,

10 how can you assert or confirm the existence of random firing if you do not

11 even know where some military targets are or what is found there?

12 A. I understand the question. As the Senior Military Observer, I sat

13 in the PTT. The list of names you have given me ring bells to me, but I

14 will be not familiar with them as the UNMOs on the ground would be. In

15 the daily reporting, they would normally give a name and a grid square,

16 and they may have well been reported. I would have to check my sit-reps

17 which were written every day, and I assume some of those names would crop

18 up.

19 Q. Now, let us concentrate on mobile targets. Could you totally

20 exclude and in all honesty that when a shell was fired to the centre of

21 the town, it was not in response by a movement of a military target, that

22 is, a silent shot?

23 A. By "silent shot," are you saying that there may have been movement

24 and thus --

25 Q. Let us forget that. A shot that was not detected.

1 A. That could have well been the case.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Consequently, it is quite possible, sir,

3 that when you define something as being a random shot, it could be a

4 response to a provocation or to shelling; is that true?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you for your answer.

7 So I would like to go back to a question which is -- which I am

8 interested in. It has to do with Captain Henry [as interpreted]. You

9 introduced him as being a young captain; is that true?

10 A. He was younger than I, and anybody younger than I was young. He

11 was about 34 at the time.

12 Q. So younger than you which, in other words, means young. Thank

13 you. All right.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we need some time to reflect on

15 that answer.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I need time to think about the

17 translation as usual.

18 Q. Witness, it is not quite what I said, but it isn't very important.

19 Would it be true to say, Witness, that this young officer at the time was

20 courageous?

21 A. I think many of the UNMOs were courageous. I wouldn't put him any

22 higher or lower than others.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: I believe it is a translation error, on page 38, line

25 21, we're all, I think, of the same view that it should say "Captain

1 Henneberry" rather than "Captain Henry."

2 JUDGE ORIE: I think that would be correct and there is no

3 misunderstanding about it.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 As well, Mr. Mundis, a yellow paper would perfectly work.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Sir, now I will get back to the question of Captain Henneberry.

8 Could you answer "yes" or "no" to the question if this officer was an

9 idealist or he showed a certain amount of idealism?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Would it be your impression, sir, that the officer was necessarily

12 more impressionable given the fact that he lacked experience,

13 comparatively, than an officer with experience like you?

14 A. Possibly.

15 Q. Thank you. Sir, you spoke to us about just a while ago about, as

16 a general rule, that it was the obligation for military observers to

17 report about all sorts of unusual incidents and facts; is that true?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Thank you. Sir, you were in Sarajevo at the theatre of operations

20 in January, end of 1992, beginning of 1993; is that true?

21 A. December 1992 to March 1993.

22 Q. What day of December was the 26th?

23 A. I would be guessing. It would be a -- Christmas day fell on a

24 Sunday. A Monday or a Tuesday.

25 Q. Good. Perfect. Sir, is it true, as far as you know, that the end

1 of 1992 and then in the course of 1993, one talked in the military and

2 diplomatic circles about the creation of this Tribunal to intervene?

3 A. I never heard anything about the Tribunal being created. What I

4 did hear about is a list. Somebody had produced a list of war criminals

5 which had on it Serbs and Croatians, to my knowledge.

6 Q. When did you hear that, sir?

7 A. That would have been during my period in Sarajevo, and it was

8 really brought to my attention when I went for a visit to Igman and passed

9 through Hrasnica, where I kept being told it is about time that a

10 list was produced, and that somebody had produced one, and could I get a

11 copy of it. Which I couldn't, incidentally.

12 Q. All right. Sir, if I understand you correctly, one talked during

13 your stay about war criminals in Sarajevo, is that true, or around

14 Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes, that is generally true.

16 Q. Colonel, if you received any sort of information on a war criminal

17 at that time, what would you have done?

18 A. Well, it depends on what that information would be, sir.

19 Q. An information, the contents of which were certain, sir.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please come to your

21 point?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I am trying to do so, sir.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I think you understood what I meant.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

25 Q. If you had received information from your services with regard to

1 a war criminal, what would you have done in such a case?

2 A. Well, that very much depends on what the information would be.

3 Like, I mean, just because I may have received information -- I am not

4 understanding what you are talking about.

5 Q. Very well. I am going to put this question very directly. If,

6 sir, you had received a piece of information from one of your men,

7 according to which -- saying that, "I had been informed of the existence

8 of a plan in order to level with the ground the town of Sarajevo, to shell

9 the town," how would you have reacted to this?

10 A. I wouldn't have reacted much at all because, in fact, my

11 experience since I had been in Sarajevo was, there was nothing new in

12 that. Shelling was going on day and night.

13 Q. I will interrupt you, sir. You said that it wasn't new. I am

14 talking about a precise piece of information on a plan coming from an army

15 corps. And you said that that was not new, you had received other

16 statements?

17 A. No. I had concluded, as I said on Friday, very early on that the

18 pattern of shelling of Sarajevo on -- the two distinct patterns are front

19 line and shelling into the city was a fait accompli, that that's the way

20 it was.

21 Q. Sir, I am asking you a very precise question and I would like you

22 to answer it very directly.

23 Did you receive any sort of statement from anyone according to

24 which it was affirmed in a very clear and precise way that a plan existed

25 at the level of an army corps and this plan was to level with the ground

1 the town or to shell mercilessly the town? Did you receive any

2 information to this effect, yes or no?

3 A. I cannot answer "yes" or "no" to that. I now know what you're

4 referring to. But to level Sarajevo to the ground, as I have not heard of

5 any information of that nature, Captain Henneberry told me that the

6 UNPROFOR LO at the Lukavica headquarters told him that it was intentional

7 to shell into Sarajevo. If that is the one you are referring to, that is

8 what he said.

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 Sir, I would like to continue with this subject. I read your

11 statement very carefully, the statement you made on Friday, and the terms

12 you used. You used the term "interpreted," I "interpreted" this or that.

13 Is it correct that this idea of a plan, you interpreted this, but it

14 wasn't formulated as such?

15 A. No, I couldn't say that.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 As a result, if I understand you correctly, is it exact to say

18 that when the young Captain Henneberry came to see you, he never directly

19 formulated a plan?

20 A. No, sorry, I don't understand the question.

21 Q. This is the logical follow-up to your question. Is it correct,

22 Witness, that the young Captain Henneberry, when he spoke to you, he never

23 formally mentioned in these words, "the existence of a plan at the level

24 of an army corps." Yes or no?

25 A. Not at the level of an Army Corps.

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1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 Witness, I would like to return to Mr. Henneberry, to the Witness

3 Henneberry. Do you know whether there are documents in which Captain

4 Henneberry himself is asking himself whether he has been hallucinating,

5 whether he has been a victim of hallucinations?

6 A. No, I am not aware of that.

7 Q. Do you know whether Captain Henneberry complained to you about the

8 fact that he could hallucinate?

9 A. During the time in Sarajevo, are you talking about?

10 Q. During that time or afterwards, if you met him afterwards.

11 A. I understand he may have had a few troubles, as did quite a few

12 others.

13 Q. What do you mean by "a few troubles"?

14 A. Quite a few of the UNMOs that I am aware of were offered, and

15 sought, and were given, psychological treatment after they came out of

16 Sarajevo and I am aware that Colonel Gray, for example, sought help in

17 that direction. I think there were others.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you think that this was also the case with Captain

19 Henneberry?

20 A. During his time in Sarajevo, I considered him to be a very

21 professional, hard-working officer. He was obviously under a lot of

22 stress, but I did not regard that he was anything other than fully in

23 charge of his faculties.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the

25 document mentioning the fact that this person was asking himself about his

1 hallucinations, it is P646, document P646, page 17 to 29.

2 Q. Witness, I would like to continue with what you stated. You

3 stated that --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just read it,

5 that few lines, so that we are better able to follow.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I will do

7 that willingly, but we are short of time --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Quite a lot of time on other issues. We would like

9 to hear from you these 12 lines, and I will keep an eye on the clock.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I will

11 read the last part on page 17. [In English] "I think something strange

12 happened to me during the time at the hospital. Sometime after I returned

13 from Yugoslavia, I started having night dreams and flashes during the day.

14 The image was always the same. I was standing beside -- beside the bed of

15 one of the wounded soldiers and I looked over into the corner of the

16 operating room. There was a sack, that is the only way to describe it, a

17 stack of about five -- a stack of about five dead children, aged around

18 6 or 7."

19 [Interpretation] The rest had been read out last time,

20 Mr. President. May I continue?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I am just wondering about hallucinations. You

22 mean flashes during the day? That is what you refer to as hallucinations?

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

1 Q. Witness, I would like to return to your reaction immediately

2 following this meeting that you allegedly had with Mr. -- with

3 Captain Henneberry.

4 Did you inform anyone of this?

5 A. No, I did not. As I said on Friday, I accepted that that is what

6 had been going on all the time. It was, in my words, not earth shattering

7 at all. But I am not too sure, are you connecting this with the dream he

8 supposedly had?

9 Q. No, Witness, I am not connecting anything with anything. I just

10 want to know whether you -- whether you made some sort of official

11 information. Your response to that is no, is that correct?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 Witness, I read your first statement very carefully which was

15 given to the Office of the Prosecutor. Is it true if I say that, in that

16 statement, you never mentioned that meeting with Captain Henneberry or the

17 contents of that meeting?

18 A. Yes, that is true.

19 Q. Sir, is it true that you didn't mention, for the first time, the

20 existence of this meeting with Captain Henneberry and the contents of

21 that meeting, you didn't mention this until the 23rd of May, 2002, that

22 is to say, until just a few hours ago?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. Captain -- I apologise, Colonel. How is it that for a period of

25 about 11 years, perhaps, you never remembered these facts and then all of

1 a sudden, a few minutes before the first hearing, a few minutes before you

2 were first questioned, you remembered this?

3 A. Sir, I have tried to explain that when I arrived in Sarajevo and

4 after watching the shelling that was going on, I concluded in my mind that

5 there was a deliberate plan of shelling.

6 Q. Witness, I am going to interrupt you. I am going to interrupt

7 you. I apologise. This conclusion that you have come to, wasn't it

8 something that you could have thought of in 1997 or 1998 when you

9 first -- when you gave your first statement?

10 A. I did, sir, but what Captain Henneberry was told me, it was not

11 earth shattering. It was old news as far as I was concerned.

12 Q. Could you answer the question as to why did you never mention this

13 meeting and the contents of this meeting with Captain Henneberry before

14 the 23rd of May, 2002?

15 A. Sir, it was not important. I had many, many important meetings.

16 The information he told me --

17 JUDGE ORIE: May I just --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Witness, I am going to

19 interrupt. I would like to continue, Mr. President, if I can.

20 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one question?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

22 JUDGE ORIE: A lot of questions have been put to you regarding

23 what you stated before and what you stated on the 23rd of May. Might it

24 have been the case, or is it the case, that it came into your mind or came

25 again in your mind on the basis of the information you received at that

1 very moment from someone else?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, that could well have been the case because --

3 JUDGE ORIE: May I then specifically ask you: Has the testimony

4 of Mr. Henneberry come to your knowledge in whole or in part during what

5 was said last week?

6 THE WITNESS: I would say in part, Your Honour, if I may explain.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please explain.

8 THE WITNESS: He reminded me of a time that he was very upset.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Who reminded you?

10 THE WITNESS: Captain Henneberry.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You spoke to him recently?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, but he would not say what that was. I related

13 this meeting, thinking that that is what it may have been. It is part of

14 a jigsaw puzzle that I have often wondered about.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Did you speak to Mr. Henneberry after he gave his

16 testimony in this court?

17 THE WITNESS: I was told not to speak to him. We lived at the

18 same hotel, sir, but we did not speak about any testimony. I made sure

19 that he didn't and he had the same view.

20 JUDGE ORIE: But as far as I understand, you have spoken about

21 subjects which might have been part of his testimony. When you spoke

22 about events that happened at that time in Sarajevo, you could never

23 exclude that this would have been part of his testimony.

24 THE WITNESS: I don't know what his testimony was, sir.

25 JUDGE ORIE: But it couldn't exclude that.

1 THE WITNESS: No, sir. Our discussions were on things like how

2 did the experience really affect us, as opposed to anything else.

3 JUDGE ORIE: But your instructions were not to speak to him?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I was told by my counsel not to discuss

5 anything with him.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So by drawing the lines by yourself what

7 would be relevant or not relevant, you more or less broke the instructions

8 given to you?

9 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I am talking about -- we spoke before he

10 gave his evidence. We were then told, when we was giving evidence, that

11 there was to be no discussions, and there was not after that, sir.

12 JUDGE ORIE: You have not been speaking to Mr. Henneberry after

13 he gave his testimony, is that --

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, spoke to him, sir, but nothing about Sarajevo.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Just about the weather and --

16 THE WITNESS: Yes. He was living in the same hotel, sir.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, these are the questions I was going to ask you but in a

20 different manner, and I will go back to this subject. You just said a

21 minute ago that you knew about Mr. Henneberry's testimony; is that

22 correct?

23 A. No, I said that I did not know about his testimony, sir.

24 Q. That is what I heard you say, that you were partially acquainted

25 with its contents?

1 A. No, sir.

2 Q. I will verify that in the transcript.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, tell you that --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The response was to a very

5 specific question which was as follows, a question by the President, [In

6 English] "... come to your knowledge in whole or in part during what was

7 said last week," and your answer was: "I would say in part, Your Honour."

8 In part means "partially" in French. I shall reformulate my question

9 once more.

10 Q. Sir, you were aware of this testimony. You had partial knowledge

11 of this testimony; yes or no?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. Why did you say that you had partial knowledge of this testimony?

14 A. I was referring to the fact that we were both here, as were

15 others, giving testimony but I did not have anything from him --

16 Q. Sir, answer my question precisely. How is it that your memory was

17 suddenly jolted about 11 years after the events and after you had

18 stayed in the same hotel as the Witness Henneberry? And good day,

19 Mr. Ierace.

20 A. Yes, sir, I understand what you are saying.

21 Q. I hope so.

22 A. I was not told anything by Captain Henneberry in relation to this.

23 All we discussed were how we generally felt after the event after 10

24 years. And I recall that he was very upset on a few occasions, and I

25 often wondered why. I asked him why. He did not tell me because he said

1 he was not allowed to speak about it. I shouldn't have perhaps asked him,

2 but we didn't discuss anything about that.

3 Q. But you spoke about a meeting at which he said that he was very

4 upset; is that correct?

5 A. No. I observed that he was very upset at one occasion when I

6 visited Sarajevo -- Lukavica.

7 Q. I am speaking about the recent events when you saw the witness

8 Henneberry. And on how many occasions did you see him, Witness, in the

9 last few days?

10 A. I think we crossed over as about three days, but we were not with

11 each other, only at meals.

12 Q. Sir, you are under oath right now. And can you state under oath

13 in front of this Trial Chamber that you never spoke and never mentioned

14 this famous meeting which you mention in the statement of the 23rd of May,

15 2002? Can you solemnly claim that this is the case?

16 A. Yes, I can, sir.

17 Q. You never spoke about it and you never even mentioned it, you

18 never evoked it?

19 A. Sir, I have already said that I recall when I visited Lukavica

20 that he was upset on one occasion. And he said, "Yes, I was," but he

21 didn't go on and say why.

22 Q. So would you agree with me in saying that you referred to

23 it "partially"?

24 A. Yes. I would have to say yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.

1 Witness, I would now like to return to these events. Who took

2 the initiative to forward this statement of the 23rd of May, 2002?

3 A. The statement of the 23rd of May this year? The forwarded -- what

4 statement is that one, sir?

5 Q. Took the initiative to establish this statement.

6 A. It would be my counsel, sir.

7 Q. You say "my counsel." Who is "my counsel"?

8 A. Mr. Mundis.

9 Q. You are saying that Mr. Mundis is your lawyer; is that correct?

10 A. No, he --

11 JUDGE ORIE: There might be some misunderstanding, Mr.

12 Piletta-Zanin. In a common law oriented system, a witness is more linked

13 to one party, for example, because he is called by that party, than to

14 another party. I don't think there is any use in continuing that line of

15 questioning. We heard --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Exactly. That is right,

17 Mr. President.

18 Q. So the initiative was taken by Mr. Mundis?

19 A. After I had mentioned the incidents of which I think was recorded.

20 For example, the statement by General Mladic at Christmas dinner. Are you

21 referring to those statements?

22 Q. No, no. You know very well to what I am referring. Colonel, I am

23 still speaking about the contact you had with Mr. Henneberry. You said

24 in your statement of the 23rd of May, that this statement had been in a

25 certain sense requested by Mr. Mundis. Is that correct?

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, for the record, I think the witness

3 may have become confused simply because of the fact that Mr. Piletta-Zanin

4 refers to the supplemental information sheet as a statement. Again, this

5 is not a document that the witness has signed or affirmed as being a

6 statement but simply is information that we have provided for the benefit

7 of the Defence based on information that the witness provided to us during

8 a final phase of proofing. There is no evidence that the witness has

9 signed this document, Mr. President, or has even seen this document, and I

10 believe that's where partial -- the confusion may be partially coming

11 from, in that my learned colleague keeps referring to this document as a

12 statement when in fact the witness has not signed or read this statement,

13 and it would be the Prosecution view that it is not a statement.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In order to clarify this, Colonel Cutler, your

15 interview, if it has been an interview, on the 23rd of May, the content of

16 it, not in the form of a statement of yours, has been communicated to

17 the Defence. So the Defence is aware of what has been the subject and

18 probably the content of your discussions with the Prosecutor's office.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. So we are speaking about this supplementary information about the

22 23rd of May of this year. Is it true that this information had been

23 requested by Mr. Mundis?

24 A. I made the statements and he recorded them.

25 Q. Could you tell me when Mr. Mundis contacted you in order to do

1 this?

2 A. It would have been last Thursday or Wednesday afternoon, sir.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So probably on Wednesday, sir, it was after you had already spent

6 a few days in the company of Mr. Henneberry; isn't that correct?

7 A. That is correct, sir.

8 Q. Thank you. Where did this meeting take place?

9 A. Which meeting are you referring to, sir?

10 Q. I am still referring to the one of the 22nd of May -- sorry, the

11 23rd of May, 2002.

12 A. In this building, sir.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 Have you been questioned about the subject -- when you were

15 questioned about this subject, did the Prosecution use the term "plan"?

16 A. Not that I recall, sir.

17 Q. Very well. Colonel, could you confirm if this is the case: That

18 you only had very -- that you only had a very superficial knowledge of the

19 Serbian language?

20 A. Definitely.

21 Q. Thank you very much.

22 As a result, could you confirm that like in the case of Mr.

23 Henneberry, you could only communicate through an interpreter?

24 A. That is correct, sir.

25 Q. Thank you. Sir, you said that you had met General Mladic on one

1 occasion. Can you confirm this?

2 A. On two occasions, sir.

3 Q. Even better. Thank you. Sir, on each occasion, you had an

4 interpreter; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. What was the name of the interpreter?

7 A. Jadranka Milanovic.

8 Q. Was she the interpreter of the Bosnian Serbs or of the military

9 observers?

10 A. She was hired by UNPROFOR to be interpreter for the military

11 observers.

12 Q. Very well. Can you be certain of a translation, sir?

13 A. Jadranka Milanovic was very highly regarded as an interpreter and

14 had very good scoring, as I understood it, in her testing. She was highly

15 regarded by General Morillon, and I think she was basically in demand for

16 any meetings that General Morillon had with General Mladic, General Gvero.

17 I can only say, I think she was a loyal and faithful interpreter.

18 Q. I am interrupting you. You, yourself, in your capacity, how could

19 you yourself personally judge about the quality of the work performed

20 by Mrs. Milanovic?

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...because you don't

22 understand their language. It doesn't need much explanation that you are

23 not in a position to assess whether the interpretation is right or wrong.

24 Of course, a line of two words cannot be translated into 100. There are a

25 few exceptions. This really needs no explanation, unless you would like

1 to know whether she was considered to be a good interpreter and that is

2 what the witness answered. So please come up with --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

4 Mr. President. I don't share your opinion, but that is another matter.

5 Q. Witness, have you ever, in the three months you spent in Sarajevo,

6 knew of other occasions where you would be spoken to formally about a plan

7 at the level of an army corps designed to produce what we have discussed

8 earlier on; yes or no?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I would like to go back to

11 Sarajevo. Does the name "Zetra" mean anything to you?

12 A. Is that what they called the Olympic stadium?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

14 Please proceed with your answer.

15 THE WITNESS: I think that was the name of the Olympic stadium.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Do you know -- that is right. That is right. Do you know whether

18 or a part of the Zetra hall had been transformed into a warehouse of the

19 BH army?

20 A. I am personally not aware of that, but I would not be at all

21 surprised.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness, for your answer.

23 In your statement of 1997 and 1998, you declared that the Bosnian

24 forces possessed five tanks; do you remember?

25 A. Yes. As said today --

1 Q. Thank you for your answer, Colonel.

2 You also stated that each of these tanks could be used for firing;

3 do you remember that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. I am sorry to be so quick, but we are short of time.

6 Okay. So that they fired and that your answer was "yes." Is that

7 correct?

8 A. No. You would have to explain the question, please.

9 Q. Have you not stated, Witness, that the five tanks, although they

10 were in bad condition, could nevertheless fire?

11 A. Yes, they could.

12 Q. Do you know whether they actually did that?

13 A. Would you re-interpret, please? I missed the entire end of that.

14 Q. Do you know whether they actually fired, that the tanks actually

15 fired?

16 A. Yes. Daily sit-reps would have recorded that. I cannot give you

17 dates, times, and places, et cetera.

18 Q. Thank you, Colonel.

19 Now, I would like to give you an exhibit which will be number

20 110. With the assistance of the usher, if Your Honour will allow me.

21 THE REGISTRAR: We already have D110.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: So it will be D111.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I wonder, but that is perhaps a question to

24 Ms. Pilipovic before you change it. You introduced number D110 to refresh

25 the memory of Mr. Cutler. It finally did not serve to refresh his memory.

1 Would you still tender that, because there is nothing in the testimony of

2 Mr. Cutler that finally could confirm, apart from that the letter exists,

3 but whether the content is of any value.

4 Mr. Mundis.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would anticipate asking the witness

6 a few questions in re-direct with respect to that document

7 JUDGE ORIE: On D110. Okay, then perhaps D111 would be a better

8 idea.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I just want to ask you for about 30 seconds for -- while we are

11 dealing with these material considerations, I would like to ask you about

12 a document which we will submit to you in a while, to please read point

13 5B.

14 So you have a two-page document. Do you have it?

15 A. Yes, thank you.

16 Q. Witness, do you know about this document? Can you identify it?

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have this document.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, does the name De Vere Hayes mean anything to you?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. Does the form of this document remind you of anything?

22 A. Yes. The form of the document looks very much like what we would

23 have used on our daily sit-reps, but I have not seen this one. I don't

24 know where this one was from.

25 Q. That is all right. Let us presume, Witness, please, that the

1 document, this document, which seems to be the number 00452672 -- 00452673

2 corresponds to one of these documents.

3 Witness, please, could you read, please -- could you please read

4 to us what you see on page 2 of the document next to the word "image,"

5 starting from the letter "B" which starts with the words "more probable."

6 A. Yes, I will read that out.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution objects. The

8 witness says he has never seen this document and he does not know where

9 this document came from.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- to respond to Mr. Mundis,

13 I see that the document was accepted a few days ago because it was

14 recognised by a witness. The witness has now said that he cannot

15 recognise this specific document but that it resembles one which has --

16 similar to the ones that he used for the sit-reps. And the number is ERN,

17 so I think this is just a formal objection.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The mere fact that a document has an ERN number

19 doesn't say that it could be introduced by any witness. So that is a

20 different matter, whether finally the Prosecution would oppose against the

21 use of the document. But, Mr. Mundis, would you please --

22 MR. MUNDIS: I certainly would adopt what Your Honours have said

23 but I would be curious as to which witness that Mr. Piletta-Zanin is

24 referring to that has recognised this document.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No, not this document. He was talking about the

1 admission of a document on the basis of recognition by a witness.

2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please refer to us exactly what,

3 since that is the question of Mr. Mundis, what type of document you are

4 -- was this a medical record or what type of document are you referring

5 to? What witness were you referring to?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I think

7 that very recently in my absence, Ms. Pilipovic made an objection to a

8 document that seemed unclear to her and I think that your Chamber said,

9 that since the witness had in principle recognised it, there was no room

10 for doubt and consequently you would admit it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: A recognition in general terms, like "similar to."

12 I think the witness also -- if at least you are very vague in what

13 you say, but I don't remember anything else that the witness recognised

14 the document also in relation to the content and not just in relation to

15 the format. I don't think that the mere fact that a document has an

16 appearance similar to documents known to a witness would be sufficient to

17 ask any further questions.

18 But apart from that -- but that might not be your mistake, that

19 the document seems not to be complete, a few words missing. So, if you

20 want to see whether any part of the content of the document or if you

21 would like to ask any questions, you don't have to ask the witness to read

22 if you say -- if the Defence would put that and then you can ask whatever

23 question, but perhaps not in relation to this document.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] All right.

25 Q. Can you, Witness, read --

1 JUDGE ORIE: If we say not in relation to the document, you cannot

2 ask him to read the document because that is the finest way of relating

3 the question to the document. But you could perhaps read or paraphrase

4 parts of the contents.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So I shall read, Witness, what is in front of you under "B," but

7 before that --

8 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you not to relate the question to the

9 document, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, so I said you could paraphrase but not in

10 relation to the document because the witness doesn't know the document,

11 and the only thing the witness has said is that it has a similar format.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, do you remember having had a meeting on February 15th,

14 1993, a meeting during which you referred to some strategic considerations

15 and this custom with other military officers?

16 A. The only meeting I think I had on the 15th of February was at

17 Lukavica with -- besides the 8.30 conference that day, my UNMO meeting

18 that evening, I visited Sarajevo -- Lukavica on that day to make sure that

19 Colonel Marcetic had a letter that I had written in relation to the

20 shelling of Papa 5.

21 Q. At that time or in the whereabouts of that time, is it not correct

22 that those in charge of the UNPROFOR, that the strategy that the Serbs

23 wanted was to guarantee an opening to the roads in Sarajevo and to ease

24 tension and pressure in the city, with the aim of giving a map to

25 Mr. Izetbegovic to avoid him using the media in the -- for the purposes he

1 intended to?

2 Would that -- does that remind you of anything? Does that mean

3 anything to you?

4 A. Yes, it does.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Cutler.

7 THE WITNESS: It was in relation to a meeting that -- I do not

8 recall if it was the 15th of February but it was fairly close to that

9 date. There was a meeting at the airport called by General Morillon, of

10 which he wanted to declare a two-week ceasefire. That meeting was

11 attended by General Mladic, General Gvero, the sector commander, General

12 Morillon, of course, myself, and several other staff officers. That

13 meeting was at the airport. It was supposed to have been attended by a

14 Bosnian Presidency representative. I understand that General Siber was

15 going to attend but a container had been put across the road going out to

16 Sarajevo, and he refused to attend.

17 The purpose of the -- the purpose of the -- the purpose of that

18 meeting, I recall General Morillon trying to convince General Mladic that

19 we needed a two-week ceasefire, during which time the utilities repair

20 missions could get out and restore electricity to Sarajevo and to Pale and

21 to Lukavica. It was during that meeting that I think General Mladic --

22 wrong -- General Morillon proposed a plan that President Izetbegovic

23 wanted what was known as the "blue routes" out of Sarajevo.

24 I was rather skeptical of that meeting, the reason being is there

25 was not a Bosnian army representative there. And in any case, when we got

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1 back that night, the shelling started again. General Morillon seemed to

2 leave the meeting feeling as though we might have had a ceasefire.

3 Unfortunately, that was not the case. If that is the meeting that you are

4 referring to, then, yes, I recall that meeting quite well, sir.

5 Q. Yes, thank you for remembering that.

6 Is it true, according to your knowledge, that the situation

7 regarding the Serb position at the time was to try to ease pressure over

8 Sarajevo, perhaps for political ends, but not to increase tension? Is

9 that true?

10 A. I would say that was true at that time, yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Thank you, sir.

12 Now I would like to speak about the situation of February 15,

13 1993. In respect of that meeting, you instructed your services to

14 elaborate a chart of the opposing troops, of the opposing armies?

15 A. I am sorry, I do not know what you are talking about.

16 Q. Have you not, during that meeting of February 15th, 1993, gave

17 instructions to your structures to work out a chart and a list of

18 different commanders?

19 A. That was part of what we were required to do. Whether I did it on

20 the 15th or not, I do not know.

21 Q. Did you do that, sir?

22 A. Did I make an organisation chart? No. No, sir.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall consult a moment.

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...of the

25 instructions that you gave that such a chart was made?

1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. You are saying, did I give

2 instructions that, as well as possible, UNMOs were to make up charts --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of the --

4 THE WITNESS: Organisations, yes.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just to clarify matters, I

6 would like to give, and this is my very last question --

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...quite clear to

8 you. When you started your cross-examination, you had 50 minutes. You

9 have taken now one hour and 20 minutes. Even if I deduct one and-a-half

10 minutes for reading five lines and even if I would deduct all the

11 questions I put in between and even if I would deduct such an important

12 issue as what caused the witness to bring back into his memory certain

13 events, even then, it took more than 50 minutes.

14 So I will give you three more minutes.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 Q. Witness, with the assistance of the usher, I would like to give

17 you, if I have the permission, of page 11 of your statement that you will

18 recognise. Could you tell me whether the signature is your signature?

19 A. On which page, sir?

20 Q. The page that you have in front of you.

21 A. What I see is page 14.

22 Q. No. The number is at the bottom. Keep the page that you have in

23 front of you there. Is that your signature, Witness?

24 A. It does not look like mine, but I am familiar with this document.

25 Q. Witness, you said --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute between the parties about the

2 document? If you perhaps, Mr. Usher, show it to Mr. Mundis, and please

3 ask whatever question you would like to ask about it.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to

5 read the part that has been highlighted in yellow.

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. "For this reason, my office compiled

7 organisations and lists of commanders of the warring factions."

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 We will have a break until 5 minutes past 6.00.

12 I assume, Mr. Mundis, that the Prosecution needs to re-examine the

13 witness?

14 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an estimate on how much time you

16 would take?

17 MR. MUNDIS: I would say 5 to 10 minutes

18 JUDGE ORIE: Five to ten minutes. Thank you very much.

19 We will adjourn until five minutes past 6.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin -- oh, you're -- then Mr. Mundis.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I would just like to

24 inform the Trial Chamber that shortly before the break I indicated that I

25 would be asking the witness some questions regarding Defence Exhibit 110.

1 Upon reflection, the Prosecution has decided not to ask those questions.

2 I am just informing you now.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

4 Q. Colonel Cutler, in response to some questions from counsel for the

5 Defence, you described that you had had a partial awareness of

6 Captain Henneberry's testimony. Can you describe -- just to be absolutely

7 clear, can you describe once again the sequence of any discussion that you

8 may have had with Captain Henneberry?

9 A. Yes, sir. It was something like this: I remember visiting

10 Lukavica barracks one day on or after the 15th of February. I had already

11 described in my main evidence that I regarded Captain Henneberry as a fine

12 young officer. This particular day, he seemed very upset, and this is

13 from my recall. I had never really been able to fathom out why he was so

14 upset. And it was my recollection, by sitting down and thinking about the

15 meetings that I had in Lukavica, that I had a recall of what he told me.

16 As I said before, I asked Captain Henneberry not long after

17 arriving here what his problem was, and he said he could not discuss it.

18 Q. Let me just interrupt you there, Colonel. Do you recall

19 approximately what day or date it was that you spoke here in The Hague

20 with Captain Henneberry?

21 A. I arrived here on the 15th. It would have been the evening of the

22 16th, I think.

23 Q. Can you continue with the discussion that you had with Captain

24 Henneberry at that time?

25 A. That was basically it. I had been told we weren't to discuss

1 anything. He said the same thing, he said we can't discuss it, and that

2 is all there was to it.

3 Q. Thank you, Colonel Cutler.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Prosecution has no further questions for the

5 witness, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cutler, Judge Nieto-Navia has a question for

7 you.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 Talking about the shelling of the Kosevo hospital --

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You said -- this afternoon, you said: "As I

13 understand it, the only place that shell could have come from was from the

14 Serbian side."

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: But reading your report of the 1st of

17 February, 1993, and it is signed by you - it is Exhibit P745 - you

18 said: "We are unable to determine exactly which battery was responsible

19 for this shelling."

20 Could you try to explain that?

21 A. Yes, sir. We are talking about two separate incidents. We are

22 talking about the outgoing fire, the 9 rounds that were witnessed by the

23 British colour sergeant, that was on the 11th of January. The incoming

24 fire as a result of the rounds that were fired out, we could not establish

25 where it came from, but in my mind, I knew where it came from, but I

1 cannot prove that.

2 Then there was the other incident of the 29th and 30th of January

3 of which I had reports from Major Vassilev and Captain Baker. That is the

4 one I was referring to, because there were 155 artillery mortar shells

5 that landed in the hospital. The tail piece was kept as evidence, and to

6 my knowledge, the Bosnian did not have 155 artillery pieces. That is why

7 I made that statement, sir.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi as one or more questions to you.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 You mentioned incidents that took place when Mr. Vance and Mr.

12 Owen visited, as well as when Mr. Boutros Boutros-Ghali visited Sarajevo.

13 You said that, on this occasion, you had doubts as to whether the BH army

14 positions -- you had doubts as to whether they had fired from the

15 Presidency or by the Presidency. Is this just an assumption? Did you

16 carry out an investigation? I would like to know how you came to this

17 conclusion.

18 A. Sir, I did not state categorically where the fire come from. I

19 was talking about the target was near the Presidency on those two

20 occasions. It was strongly rumoured at the time that it may have been the

21 Bosnians firing. I am aware that those two incidents were investigated,

22 but I do not know what the conclusions or outcomes were, sir. It was

23 strongly rumoured that the Bosnians fired themselves to draw attention to

24 the fact that they were being shelled.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Sir, if I had understood you

1 correctly, these were rumours, and they were rumours in the United Nations

2 forces or were these rumours which its origin had not been determined?

3 A. They were generally accepted, fairly strongly held rumours that

4 that is what was going on within headquarter Sector Sarajevo and General

5 Morillon's headquarters.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 I would like you to tell me about the meeting which took place on

8 the 15th of February, 1993. If I have understood this correctly, you said

9 that this was in order to try and ease the siege of Sarajevo and that it

10 was part of the BH army, it was the BH army side that was absent and that

11 none was able or wanted to attend this meeting. And this idea of "easing"

12 the siege, did this come from the Serbian side or did it come from the

13 United Nations?

14 A. The meeting, sir, was called or initiated by General Morillon.

15 He wanted the Serbian leadership, that is, General Mladic, and I think he

16 wanted the senior supreme commander of the ABiH side to attend, so it was

17 arranged that they would meet at the airport. The Serbian side was

18 represented by General Mladic, General Gvero, and I think there were some

19 other Serb officers there. Unfortunately, Colonel Siber who was going to

20 represent the ABiH side was all prepared to come to the airport meeting,

21 but there was a barrier had been placed across the road, I assume by the

22 Serbian forces, and he refused to go any further.

23 General Morillon started the meeting without the presence of

24 Colonel Siber. He said to the Serb side, "either remove the barrier or

25 come into the Sarajevo to the PTT and have the meeting," but

1 General Mladic would not go into Sarajevo.

2 As I understand it, the reason for the meeting was for General

3 Morillon to convince both sides to have a two-week ceasefire in which time

4 they could establish electricity into the city of Sarajevo and do other

5 utilities repair missions. General Mladic did not think it was a right

6 time to have a ceasefire but was prepared to assist in establishing what

7 was known as "blue routes" out from the centre of Sarajevo through the

8 area of Dobrinja to the airport and across, to allow women and children to

9 go out of Sarajevo if they so desired.

10 Because Colonel Siber did not turn up at the meeting, it was

11 really one-sided. And the meeting broke up with General Morillon saying:

12 "We have an agreement that there will be a ceasefire." I, as I said

13 before, was not optimistic that that would be the case. That night, there

14 was shelling on both sides.

15 Have I answered the question, sir?

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, sir, perfectly well. And

17 just one clarification please, one last clarification. In your opinion,

18 the "blue routes" which you mentioned which allowed women and children to

19 leave the town, what did you think of the General Mladic's acceptance of

20 this within the framework of the allegations made, let's say that he --

21 that in strategic he wanted to destroy the town or empty it of its Muslim

22 inhabitants, and does that agree with these allegations?

23 A. The short answer, sir, is no, it doesn't. I was very skeptical of

24 any such plan, although we all hoped and prayed that something like that

25 would eventually occur. But it never came to anything.

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1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Sir, in your opinion, it

2 was not serious or it had been put forward, it had been proposed, but not

3 in order to be undertaken as an engagement, in your opinion?

4 A. My opinion was that it was a very good idea, but it would not

5 work.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Colonel Cutler, I have one question for you as well.

8 As I indicated before to you, an information sheet has been made of the

9 last discussions you had with representatives of the Office of the

10 Prosecutor and it refers to a meeting you had with Captain Henneberry when

11 he was extremely upset. And the information sheet reads that he would

12 have said that it was towards the end of your tenure.

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you be more specific?

15 A. Yes, sir, I can. I was very upset about the period of the

16 shelling of Papa 5, and that occurred on the 13th and 14th of February. I

17 went on CTO, that is leave, away from Sarajevo during the period 21 - 26

18 of February. Captain Henneberry took over the Lima headquarters post

19 about the 29th of January. He would have only been in Sarajevo for a few

20 days after I got back from CTO. So I can only conclude that the meeting

21 would have been connected with the meeting I had with Colonel Marcetic,

22 which I think was on the 15th. So it would be between the 15th and the

23 21st. I can't tie it down any tighter than that, sir.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So you said between the 15th and the 21st. And you

25 told us that afterwards -- well, do you remember what Mr. Henneberry then

1 did? I just have to look in the transcript. One moment, please.

2 Yes, I understand your answer.

3 Thank you very much. That was the one question I still had for

4 you.

5 Mr. Mundis.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would respectfully ask leave to ask

7 a couple of follow-up questions with respect to questions put to the

8 witness by Judge El Mahdi.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If it is in relation to questions of the Bench, you

10 know that usually this -- yes.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We are in total agreement

12 because we are requesting the same thing, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Prosecution is the first to ask any additional

14 questions.

15 Further re-examination by Mr. Mundis:

16 Q. Judge El Mahdi asked you a question. I am going to repeat the

17 question and your answer, and the first part of your answer, and ask you

18 if you are in a position to elaborate upon the answer you gave. Do you

19 understand that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Judge El Mahdi asked you: "And just one clarification, please,

22 one last clarification. In your opinion, the "blue routes" which you

23 mentioned which allowed women and children to leave the town, what did you

24 think of General Mladic's acceptance of this within the framework of the

25 allegations made, let's say that he -- that in strategic he wanted to

1 destroy the town or empty it of its Muslim inhabitants, and does that

2 agree with these allegations?"

3 Your answer: "The short answer, sir, is no, it doesn't."

4 Are you in a position, Colonel, to elaborate upon your response:

5 "No, it doesn't"? In other words, why doesn't that -- if you say:

6 "No, it doesn't," why not?

7 A. Because I could not see the plan working at that time.

8 Q. Which plan are you referring to, Colonel?

9 A. The establishment of blue routes out of Sarajevo.

10 Q. This discussion that you had with respect to the blue routes,

11 this meeting about the blue routes, came after the Orthodox Christmas

12 dinner; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, it did.

14 Q. Were you able in your own mind in any way to reconcile the

15 statements of General Mladic at the Christmas dinner with his position,

16 vis-a-vis the blue routes?

17 A. To a certain extent, I can, in that there seemed to be a shift on

18 the Serb side away from not trying to do anything, to claiming that they

19 would only fire into Sarajevo if fired upon first. And as I think I said

20 on Friday, that certainly seemed to be the case at about that time.

21 During that meeting at the airport which I discussed earlier,

22 General Mladic's opening statement was in fact to that effect, that they

23 would only fire if fired upon, and I well recall that. In fact, he made

24 that point several times. And at that particular time, that certainly

25 seemed to be the case.

1 Q. Thank you, Colonel Cutler.

2 MR. MUNDIS: No further questions, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Two very simple questions, sir. With regard to

7 Papa 5, did you know whether near to this location at the time of these

8 attacks, there were military positions, more or less mobile, of the BH

9 army?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution objects. This

12 question does not seem to arise from questions posed by the Bench.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is quite right,

14 Mr. President. In reply to one of the questions that you asked, the

15 witness said - I remember this clearly because I was very

16 shocked - "during the attack on Papa 5." And he spoke about this. And on

17 the basis of this reply, I am asking this question. Thank you very much.

18 Q. Witness, would you please reply to this question?

19 A. Colonel Marcetic had told me the reason they were firing on the

20 area is that there was either a mortar position or a mortar OP in the

21 area. I asked my UNMOs, was there, and they said not to their knowledge.

22 But I certainly raised this matter with the ABiH side.

23 Q. Thank you, sir.

24 My second question: We spoke about the possible immigration of

25 the weakest inhabitants of Sarajevo, women and children and the elderly,

1 without a doubt. Do you know whether it is true that at the time in

2 Sarajevo there were about 40.000 [Realtime transcript read in error

3 "4.000"] Serbs in the interior of the city?

4 A. Nothing surprises me.

5 JUDGE ORIE: For the sake of the transcript, I heard "quarante

6 mille" instead of 4.000.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. And to be even more

8 precise, it seems that the numbers that we have been given, it is not

9 40.000 but a far greater number.

10 Q. Do you know whether they were up to 100.000 Serbs?

11 A. I would very, very much doubt that, sir.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions, Mr.

13 President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I then take the opportunity to ask one clarification,

15 so it is not a new question to the witness in respect of one of the

16 answers he gave, I must admit not during these last questions, but earlier

17 today on questions of Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE ORIE: Colonel Cutler, let me just read literally to you a

20 part of the transcript and then ask for a clarification: At a certain

21 question of Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you tried to get the question clearer and

22 you said, about the sound of shells being fired: "Do you mean that there

23 were fired out without being perceived?" Mr. Piletta-Zanin said,

24 "exactly." Your answer was then "yes." You were asked about the

25 possibility that the shells were fired without being perceived. So your

1 answer was clearly "yes."

2 The next question was: "Is it a probability or is it certitude?"

3 It reads, "which is a certitude" but I think it was probability or a

4 certitude. Your answer was: "Not a certainty, but it is certainly highly

5 possible."

6 The next question was: "So, consequently, it is perfectly

7 probably -- or probable, that shooting from counter-batteries was

8 triggered from Lima following firing from Sarajevo that had not been

9 detected, yes or no?" Your answer was: "Yes."

10 Then I read this part of the transcript. You first answered to

11 the question given -- to the question is that you say, "It is highly

12 possible, it is certainly highly possible that mortar shells could be

13 fired without anyone hearing it."

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The next question was: "Whether it would be

16 perfectly probable or probably that shooting from counter-batteries was

17 triggered from Lima following firing from Sarajevo?"

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That is not any more about the audibility, but it is

20 about the probability that Lima was counterfiring mortar shells being

21 fired from the city. So your answer, if I take it, your answer was

22 "yes." That would mean that you say it is probable that the Lima firing

23 was --

24 A. In response to --

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- in response to not-detected fire from the city.

1 Is that what you meant to say?

2 A. What I meant to say, sir, was rounds being fired out of Sarajevo

3 may not have been heard --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 A. -- and they may have landed in, for example, Ilidza, and as a

6 result, Serbs would respond into Sarajevo with fire.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You would consider this very possible?

8 A. That was possible, sir, yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: But would you consider it probable that firing from

10 the Lima side would -- well, let's say, usually be a response to

11 undetected firing from the city, which is a different thing?

12 A. Yes. I think I understand the difference there, sir.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first explain to you the difference.

14 If there is a possibility that your response -- that there is

15 undetected, unheard, firing from the city, that doesn't mean that most of

16 the firing from the city would be unheard?

17 A. No, sir. No. Most of it would be detected.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Would it therefore be correct, to understand your

19 answer, that although there was a fair possibility that response fire to

20 fire from the city would be a response to unheard-fire from the city, that

21 you would not regard that as probable in most cases?

22 A. No, sir. Most of the firing into the city was either on its own

23 initiative or in response to "heard" shots going out of Sarajevo.

24 JUDGE ORIE: But possibly also against unheard shots?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your clarification to this answer.

2 Mr. Cutler, this concludes your examination, your testimony in

3 this court. Unfortunately, we could not finish your examination as a

4 witness last Friday, but at least now it is Monday and we have finished.

5 I thank you very much for having come to The Hague, having answered all

6 questions from Prosecution, Defence, and the Bench, and I wish you a safe

7 trip home again.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, sir.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. Cutler out of

10 the courtroom.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through

13 the documents.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P797, UNPROFOR report 14 February, 1993;

15 Exhibit P797.1, English translation; Exhibit P809, under seal, UNPROFOR

16 document; Exhibit P798, UNPROFOR report 13 February 1993; Exhibit P745,

17 under seal, UNPROFOR report 01 February 1993; Exhibit D109A, agreement by

18 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina with regard to the concentration of all

19 heavy weapons in and around Sarajevo; Exhibit D109B, agreement by the

20 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina with regard to the concentration of

21 all heavy weapons in and around Sarajevo; Exhibit D110, letter from

22 Dragan Marcetic dated February 2, 1993, in English; Exhibit D110.1, B/C/S

23 translation; Exhibit D111, report.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are there any objections?

25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution would object to

1 Defence Exhibit 110 on the grounds that the witness was unable to refresh

2 his recollection having looked at that document.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. If we were

5 to disqualify all witnesses with a bad memory, there would be very many.

6 This was a document addressed to Colonel Cutler. It is not a

7 controversial document, and sometimes the witness's memory is excellent;

8 sometimes it is at fault.

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask for my information: The witness has

10 testified that he received such a letter. I don't see that that is in

11 dispute. What would be the additional probative value? I would just like

12 to be informed about it.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. One of

14 the important questions is, and you have mentioned it, whether there was

15 firing coming -- and here we have a very long list of heavy weapons and it

16 would be useful to prove on the basis of documents of the time that one of

17 the parties had certain weapons, to the extent that this can be contested.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, on page 21, line 14, this witness

20 stated: "When I visited Mount Igman, I never saw one weapon except

21 individual rifles." I believe, if I am not mistaken - and I very well

22 might be - that that was in the context of this document being shown to

23 him.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, but the very

1 precise testimony of the witness was, if he hadn't seen weapons, knowing

2 that they may have been mobile, there have been levelled spaces, grazed

3 spaces, cut trees, that could be used as places for storing weapons. I

4 think that this is important.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I prefer the Chamber to give a decision on the

6 admissibility of this very document by the beginning of the court session

7 of tomorrow.

8 Is there any other document? No other objections? That means

9 that the other documents under seal as far as mentioned by the registrar

10 are admitted into evidence, and that on D110, a decision will be given by

11 tomorrow. Mr. Mundis. Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will take the next witness,

13 Mr. Niaz, but before that happens, might I take this opportunity to

14 indicate that there may be some difficulty later in the week with the

15 proposed order of witnesses to be called by the Prosecution. In

16 particular, Mr. Bergeron is due to be called after O'Keefe and before

17 Thomas. I cannot confirm at this stage that Mr. Bergeron will in fact be

18 here as anticipated. I will update the Trial Chamber and the Defence

19 tomorrow morning.

20 Mr. President, if he cannot attend later this week, I shall also

21 make a proposal as to what witness or witnesses could be called instead so

22 as to not lose time. Thank you, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as far as I can see, if cross-examination would

24 just take as much time as examination-in-chief, that we still have 10 to

25 12 hours to go until Mr. Bergeron would appear. Is that correct or am I

1 mistaken?

2 MR. IERACE: We have reduced the anticipated time.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I do agree. I should not look in your

4 letter of last Friday but in your letter of today. Yes.

5 We will just wait first until tomorrow and see what will happen.

6 If this would cause great difficulties to the Defence, we will hear from

7 them.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the next witness is Lieutenant-Colonel

9 Afzaal Niaz.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness

11 into the courtroom.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with your leave, I seek to withdraw.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 WITNESS: AFZAAL NIAZ

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Niaz, can you hear me in a language you

17 understand?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I can hear you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of

20 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

21 will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. May I

22 invite you to make that declaration. The text will be handed out to you

23 now by the usher.

24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

25 whole truth and nothing but the truth.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Mr. Niaz. I

2 have to inform you that your testimony will just take perhaps 10 minutes

3 and then we have already to adjourn. But for reasons of efficiency, we

4 try to use all the time. So for certainty, you will have to come back

5 tomorrow.

6 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

9 Q. Sir, is your date of birth the 30th of March, 1957?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Have you been in the Pakistani army since 1977?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Is your rank that of Lieutenant-Colonel?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Did you serve in the former Yugoslavia as a United Nations

16 military observer from the 2nd of October, 1993, until the 2nd of October,

17 1994?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Of that period, were you in Sarajevo as a United Nations military

20 observer, or UNMO, from the 2nd of October, 1993 until March of 1994?

21 A. Yes, you are correct.

22 Q. Before leaving for the mission --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am sorry. Well, it is not

25 for me to stand up to have the booth correct itself.

1 MR. IERACE:

2 Q. Before leaving for the mission, did you receive some training in

3 Pakistan?

4 A. Training as regard to what? Could you specify, please?

5 Q. Did you receive any training in Pakistan before you left for the

6 mission, that is, training for the mission itself?

7 A. Basically, it was a little orientation about the area and nothing

8 specific. But I am trained as an infantry soldier for --

9 Q. Yes, I appreciate that. When you arrived in Zagreb, did you

10 receive any training?

11 A. Yes. We had about four days or five days of training.

12 Q. In what aspects?

13 A. Well, the -- first of all, we had to go to the driving procedures

14 and orientation about the crater analysis.

15 Q. How much training did you have in crater analysis?

16 A. Exact period, I would not be knowing but I think maybe about two

17 to three hours. I am not sure about it.

18 Q. All right. When you arrived in Sarajevo and commenced your duties

19 as an UNMO, was that on the Lima side or the Papa side?

20 A. I was on the Papa side.

21 Q. Were you on various teams, various Papa teams, or one team?

22 A. I was rotated on various Papa teams.

23 Q. Which teams?

24 A. My initial team was Papa 2. Then I served in Papa 4 -- not Papa

25 4, sorry. Papa 5, Papa 3, and also as an operation officer in Papa

1 headquarter.

2 Q. All right. Now, indeed, at some stage did you become the team

3 leader for the Papa 2 team?

4 A. Yes. I was, at the beginning of 1994, I was designated as Papa 2

5 team leader.

6 Q. Which area did Papa 2 cover?

7 A. Papa 2, in fact, was located at Mala Hum. From there, if I

8 correctly remember, Pofalici, some part of Sarajevo city, Dobrinja, area

9 of Kosevo hospital. Yeah.

10 Q. When you were a team leader, how many members did P-2 or Papa 2

11 have?

12 A. The Papa 2 team varied from 8, and the maximum UNMOs I had in my

13 team were 24. This was a special time when the weapons were being

14 withdrawn from both sides.

15 Q. What tasks did you have as an UNMO? In particular, I am

16 interested in any tasks which had anything to do with sniping or

17 shelling.

18 A. Well, our basic task was reporting, investigating any shelling or

19 sniping activity inside the city or in, I would say, in my area of

20 responsibility.

21 Q. When you say "investigating any shelling or sniping activity," do

22 you mean by that shelling or sniping of UN people or Bosnian army

23 people or civilians, or some combination?

24 A. As far as sniping of UN people were concerned, it was -- I

25 remember it was only probably me who was sniped twice. About sniping of

1 the Bosnian army was concerned, well, no. Yes, about the sniping of the

2 civilian population, yes.

3 Q. What did you do by way of investigating the sniping of civilians?

4 A. Now, one of my duty was also to go to the hospital, Kosevo

5 hospital and Dobrinja hospital, and the morgue in the Kosevo hospital at

6 the end of the day, where I used to check the latest casualties in terms

7 of injured and dead. Now --

8 Q. Did you ever go to the state hospital in that regard? I think it

9 is sometimes called the French hospital.

10 A. Yes. The hospital which was in the city, yes. But most of the

11 time had gone to -- I was going to the Kosevo hospital.

12 Q. And when you did that, did you carry out some sort of basic

13 inspection of patients?

14 A. Yes. Because once I had to report that it was a sniping casualty

15 or a mortar or shrapnel activity, I had to be certain.

16 Q. Did you ever carry out any investigations at the site of the

17 alleged sniping of the civilians?

18 A. No. Most of the time, once we were reported upon the sniping

19 activity, the casualties were taken away, and once we used to go to the

20 particular site, I have either pointed out by the local police of that

21 area that this is the general direction.

22 Q. So you relied on what the local police said in relation to the

23 general direction of the source of fire; is that what you mean?

24 A. That is one. And the second is that we knew the general direction

25 from where the fire was. Generally, the sniping activity was being

1 carried out inside Sarajevo. So activity because small arm fire because

2 sniping is very easy to pick up.

3 Q. Again, in an effort to understand your answer, do you mean by that

4 that there were notorious sources of sniping fire or do you mean something

5 else?

6 A. You are absolutely right because this activity used to be almost

7 most of the time in the city.

8 Q. In relation to incidents where civilians were allegedly shelled,

9 did you carry out any investigations at the site of the alleged shelling?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Were those investigations carried out by yourself or by team

12 members, or by both yourself and team members?

13 A. No. It had to be combination because a minimum UNMO which was

14 supposed to go out were two. So at least it was two, me and somebody

15 else from my team.

16 Q. Over those months that you were in Sarajevo as an UNMO, how many

17 shelling investigations did you carry out where the victims or victim

18 were alleged to be civilians?

19 A. It is very difficult to recall the exact number of these

20 investigations. Maybe hundreds.

21 Q. Could you give us an idea in terms of an average per week or per

22 day or per month, whatever is easiest for you?

23 A. As average day would be, on the safe side, would be three, four.

24 Q. In relation to those investigations, on any occasion, did you

25 establish a source of fire as being in an area controlled by the Bosnian

1 government armed forces?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. This seems a very

4 general question covering a very long period of time, and it would seem

5 difficult to discover a source in giving the large number of cases.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I do press the question. In my

8 respectful submission, there is nothing about that question which makes

9 it inadmissible or lacking, in particular, lacking in probative value.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, apart from it, may I understand the question

11 that it is limited to the time where the witness was present in Sarajevo?

12 That is more or less implicit, but since you gave no further time limit,

13 the objection is denied.

14 Perhaps you will repeat the question to the witness.

15 MR. IERACE: Yes, I will repeat the question.

16 Q. Sir, in relation to those investigations, that is, those carried

17 out by you and team members, or you or team members, on any occasion, was

18 a source of fire established as being in an area controlled by the

19 Bosnian government armed forces?

20 A. No.

21 MR. IERACE: Would that be a convenient time, Mr. President?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

23 As I told you, Mr. Niaz, it would be only short for today, but we

24 will adjourn until a quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom.

25 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

2 7.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

3 the 28th day of May, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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