1 Wednesday, 29 May 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
9 Good afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom.
10 If I am looking -- you are standing on both sides.
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Good day to you, Mr. President. The Defence wishes to raise some issues
14 with regard to what is called WY, or is it vice versa? It is a request
15 by the Prosecution of May 24th, 1992 -- 2002. The Defence would like to
16 respond. The Defence would like to remind the Chamber that, as far as it
17 knows, the Prosecution has never asked for the possibility to add the two
18 witnesses to its list. So now we are in a situation where the Prosecution
19 -- I don't think I have seen this, but the Prosecution is asking for
20 protective measures for two new witnesses, and as far as I know, we
21 haven't known -- we don't know about these two names. I may be wrong.
22 We would like to respond in written form.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...written response
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we could do it
1 quite quickly. During this week, we can respond.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I would highly appreciate it if you would do it this
3 week. Since you are mentioning this week yourself, we only too gladly
4 accept that position.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I could do it later, but we
6 could do it this week also.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, yes, first of all, I will respond to
9 my friend's concern. Indeed, both of those witnesses were on the original
10 witness list filed by the Prosecution pursuant to Rule 65 ter of the Rules
11 of Procedure and Evidence. They were referred to by their pseudonyms, so
12 they are not new witnesses. Witness W is being called next Tuesday so,
13 naturally, it is essential that a decision be made as soon as possible.
14 Mr. President, there are a few other matters that I would like to
15 raise from the Prosecution side. Firstly, in relation to the course of
16 today's proceedings and the proceedings for tomorrow and Friday. Mr.
17 President, I am not aware of any notice problem that the Defence might
18 have in relation to their preparedness to cross-examine Mr. O'Keefe. I
19 think that we have complied with all of the timetables. I would therefore
20 respectfully submit that it would be appropriate for that witness to be
21 dealt with today. I anticipate that he could be finished today entirely.
22 I am aware that my friend has sought an adjournment in order to
23 prepare himself, the Defence to prepare itself, for cross-examination of
24 Mr. Thomas. The Prosecution would also benefit from a short adjournment
25 before he is taken in chief. Might I, therefore, respectfully submit that
1 once O'Keeffe is finished today, if that is the course that the Trial
2 Chamber takes, we then adjourn until tomorrow afternoon, at which time the
3 Prosecution would deal with Thomas in chief.
4 If, by the end of his evidence in chief, the Defence reasonably
5 requires further time, then that could be dealt with at that point. I
6 think there are some documents or portions of documents which have not
7 been served by the Prosecution on the Defence pursuant to the timetable.
8 So the Prosecution accepts that there may be a problem with Thomas.
9 Mr. President, as I have said, over the last two days, we have
10 done what we could to fill any gap this week with other witnesses, and we
11 have been unable to do that. Whilst the witness O'Keeffe is likely to be
12 relatively brief in chief, and therefore in cross-examination I expect
13 that the witness Thomas will take some time, therefore, any shortfall
14 in the timetable this week may not be as great as I earlier feared.
15 Mr. President, yesterday, on other matter, I indicated that the
16 Prosecution intends to not call the witness Southwell, or "Southall" as it
17 is properly pronounced. There are some exhibits which were to be tendered
18 through him. We will seek to add some of those exhibits to a future
19 witness for the relevant period.
20 Mr. President, having dropped that witness, the Prosecution would
21 like to retrieve one of the witnesses which I indicated a week ago we
22 would drop; that is Pierce Tucker. I hasten to add that his evidence
23 will be short. There are three or four relevant parts.
24 There is a problem also with the Prosecution timetable for
25 Wednesday and Thursday next week. I don't know that it is necessary for
1 me to explain the detail of those problems. Perhaps it is sufficient to
2 say that international witnesses, by their nature, are not easily
3 marshalled. I, therefore, have in mind, if it is acceptable to the Trial
4 Chamber, to call Pierce Tucker next Wednesday and to ensure that the
5 Defence has by tomorrow morning a copy of his statement with the relevant
6 parts translated, and in addition, the relevant parts of his statement
7 indicated by me to the Defence as being the parts about which he will give
9 Mr. Tucker has given a lengthy statement recently to the Office
10 of the Prosecutor. Much of it has nothing to do with Sarajevo. To give
11 an example, I think there are some ten pages which relate to events in
12 Srebrenica. Therefore, we would exercise maximum flexibility to ensure
13 that the Defence is not prejudiced by this proposed timetable. If,
14 however, Mr. President and Your Honours, you think that that would be
15 unfair to the Defence, then at this stage we would simply seek to retrieve
16 him onto the witness list and call him at a later point.
17 There may be, as I have said, a problem mid next week. We propose
18 to call David Harland on Thursday. Again, there are some difficulties,
19 but we expect that we will be able to produce him on Thursday to give
20 evidence. I do not expect any problem with the witness we have allocated
21 for Friday, nor do I expect any problem with Mr. Mole for Monday and
22 Witness W on Tuesday. Mr. Mole on Monday may be a lengthy witness, and if
23 we have not finished his evidence by Tuesday morning, I would seek to
24 interpose Witness W. He is only available to give evidence on that day,
25 or at least I should say, given his commitments, he and the relevant
1 government would appreciate him leaving by that day, the end of that day.
2 That, Mr. President, is the situation. I do apologise for these
3 changes. I assure you that the changes do not reflect any lack of
4 diligence on the part of the Prosecution, rather, if I could use the
5 vernacular, it is the nature of the beast. International witnesses by
6 definition are difficult to organise. Thank you, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may respond, but I would say rather briefly
9 at this very moment because we first, of course, will have to see what
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It will
12 be very brief. I believe the Prosecution has been showing flexibility,
13 but things seem to be inversed. The calendars are totally changed,
14 witnesses that we have known nothing about are being proposed, and this is
15 not acceptable. It is not possible for the Defence within a period of few
16 hours to prepare for cross-examination of witnesses in such a short period
17 of time we don't have time to reflect on these matters. And we don't have
18 the possibility of contacting the accused on these matters.
19 If this is not a violation of the rights of the Defence, I don't
20 know what it is.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, we will have to consider the -- yes,
22 Ms. Pilipovic.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour. The
24 Defence would like to inform the Chamber that while preparing the
25 cross-examination of Mr. O'Keeffe, we didn't have time enough to have the
1 disclosed 23 documents, to inform General Galic about them, and this is a
2 problem which the Defence is faced with. We expect that we might be able
3 to ask for your leave to have Mr. O'Keeffe re-invited to come or to have a
4 shorter period of time to have -- to acquaint the General with the
5 information. We have gone through the material this morning. We have
6 come to the trial now and we were not able to show the General these
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that you had considerable
9 problems in preparing, especially in conferring with your client.
10 Would Mr. O'Keeffe still be available tomorrow?
11 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Wouldn't it be a wise thing that decisions to
13 be taken at this very moment is perhaps not the best thing to do but at
14 least, during the examination-in-chief of Mr. O'Keeffe, that you give, in
15 one way or the other, just an indication to the Bench when you deal with
16 those documents that had only been recently provided to the Defence, that
17 the Chamber is better able to assess to what extent the
18 examination-in-chief deals with these documents. Of course, we haven't
19 seen them, but that we don't have to guess later on which was new and what
20 was already known before to the Defence.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, firstly, Mr. O'Keeffe will be taken by
22 Mr. Mundis, but let me say this: There are no fresh documents with Mr.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, but there are documents which were not translated
25 at an earlier date and of which the Defence has told us that they were not
1 able to discuss them with General Galic. So we would like to know, for
2 example, in order to know what portion of the evidence is related to these
3 documents, so that we have at least a clue and that we will, in a later
4 stage, better be able to take into consideration all circumstances in all
5 details. Yes.
6 Then, Mr. Mundis --
7 MR. IERACE: Might I be excused, Mr. President?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 MR. MUNDIS: Prosecution calls Mr. Donough O'Keeffe.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher, would you please assist in escorting
12 Mr. O'Keeffe into the courtroom.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 WITNESS: DONOUGH EMANUEL ^ O'KEEFFE
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. O'Keeffe, may I take it that you can hear me in a
16 language you understand?
17 THE WITNESS: Correct.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. O'Keeffe, before giving testimony in this court,
19 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
20 declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
21 but the truth. The text of the declaration will be handed out to you now
22 by the usher. May I invite you to make that declaration.
23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
24 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Mr. O'Keeffe.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Mr. O'Keeffe, counsel for the Prosecution will start to examine
3 Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Examined by Mr. Mundis:
6 Q. For the record, sir, can you please state your full name and spell
7 your last name, please.
8 A. My full name is Donough O'Keeffe. My last name is spelled Oscar
9 Kilo Echo Echo Foxtrot Foxtrot Echo.
10 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, are you a currently a member of the Irish Defence
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. What is your current rank?
14 A. My rank is commandant, which would be the equivalent of major in
15 other armies.
16 Q. Sir, how long have you been a member of the Irish Defence Forces?
17 A. For 38 years.
18 Q. What branch or specialization in the Irish Defence Forces are you
19 a member of?
20 A. I am a member of the Infantry Corps.
21 Q. Did there come a time, sir, when you were posted to the city of
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. What was your assignment in Sarajevo?
25 A. Senior Military observer, Sector Sarajevo.
1 Q. Approximately, what date did you report for duty in Sarajevo?
2 A. Approximately the 16th of March, but I am not sure. I am not sure
3 of that date.
4 Q. And which year was that, sir?
5 A. 1993.
6 Q. For how long did you remain senior military observer in Sarajevo?
7 A. Approximately three and a half months.
8 Q. Do you recall the approximate date that you departed Sarajevo?
9 A. It was after the 16th of June. I know it was sometime just after
10 the 16th of June.
11 Q. Do you recall whom you relieved as senior military observer in
13 A. Yes. Jim Cutler, a New Zealander.
14 Q. Sir, when you departed Sarajevo in June 1993, who was your
16 A. Jorma Kukkola was my successor.
17 Q. What were your primary duties and responsibilities as Senior
18 Military Observer, Sector Sarajevo?
19 A. The security of my UNMOs was paramount. My mission there was to
20 monitor the ceasefire, to monitor the heavy weapons around Sarajevo, to
21 assist in the humanitarian convoys, and to report as a military observer
22 to my superior.
23 Q. In what form did the reports to your military superiors take?
24 A. Each day, we wrote a report at the end of the day. Also -- sorry.
25 This report went to the senior military observer of UNPROFOR and it also
1 went to the sector commander of UNPROFOR in Sarajevo Sector. We
2 also submitted logs - I mean daily logsheets - of events that happened
3 during the day to the sector commander of Sarajevo.
4 Q. The information that was contained in the daily reports, how did
5 you receive that information?
6 A. I had military observers on what we called the Lima side which was
7 monitors on the Serbian side of the front line. We had Papa observers
8 inside the city. These observers made their reports during the day.
9 These reports were compiled into a full report by my staff and we would
10 submit this report at the end of the day.
11 Q. During the time you were senior military observer in Sarajevo, do
12 you recall approximately how many UN military observers you had on the
13 Papa side?
14 A. I am not sure. The total number of UNMOs varied from
15 approximately 40 to 70 during my time.
16 As far as I recollect, we had less than half of the UNMOs in the
17 Papa side. So, at times, it could be between 10 to 15 UNMOs.
18 Q. On the Papa side?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. With the remainder on the Lima side?
21 A. Correct. Except those -- except the observers working at the
23 Q. Do you recall during the time that you were senior military
24 observer in Sarajevo, how many Papa observation posts were in existence?
25 A. I think approximately five. I am not sure how many exactly.
1 Q. How many observation posts on the Lima side?
2 A. As far as I remember, there were more -- more than the Papa side,
3 but I could not say.
4 Q. Did your responsibilities as senior military observer include
5 lodging formal protests or complaints with either of the warring sides?
6 A. Yes. We, on the Papa side and on the Lima side, they -- both
7 the senior observers, they both lodged complaints. I, at the beginning,
8 lodged complaints, but very shortly after I taking over, all formal
9 protests had to be made through sector commander Sarajevo.
10 Q. During the time you were in Sarajevo, who was the sector
11 commander Sarajevo?
12 A. Colonel Valentin, a French officer.
13 Q. Do you recall the approximate date or time period in which the
14 sector commander Sarajevo assumed responsibility for making formal
16 A. I could not -- I could not be sure, but I think approximately
17 early April.
18 Q. Prior to that period, did you personally make any formal protests
19 to the Bosnian Serb army side?
20 A. Yes. I personally protested against the targeting of one of our
21 observation posts on the Papa side.
22 Q. Do you recall the approximate date that you made this protest?
23 A. It was during April. I don't know -- I don't know. I couldn't
24 say which date.
25 Q. Do you recall whom you met with on the Bosnian Serb army side when
1 making this protest?
2 A. I met Colonel Galic.
3 Q. Was that the first instance that you met with him?
4 A. No.
5 Q. When was the first time you met with Colonel Galic?
6 A. When I was taking over from Colonel Cutler, he was giving me a
7 briefing of the situation in Sarajevo, and I attended a meeting with him
8 in Colonel Galic's office during my first week.
9 Q. Where was this office located?
10 A. In the barracks in Lukavica.
11 Q. Was this also an opportunity for Colonel Cutler to introduce you
12 to the corps commander?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you take part in any of the substantive discussions at that
16 A. You mean, during the meeting?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. I was there during the meeting, all the time during the meeting,
20 Q. Did you personally say anything to Colonel Galic at that time?
21 A. Yes. I introduced myself as an officer of the Defence Forces of
22 Ireland. I explained to him that I had been sent here by my government to
23 assist him in their crisis. I assured him that I would be totally
24 impartial during my time as senior military observer and I expected him to
25 treat the military observers with the respect that was due to them.
1 Q. Do you recall approximately how long this meeting lasted?
2 A. No, I don't. I couldn't say.
3 Q. Did the situation with respect to the observation post that was
4 the subject of this discussion improve following this meeting?
5 A. Can you phrase that again, please?
6 Q. Certainly. Let me backtrack one question. Do you recall which
7 observation post was the subject matter of the discussion with Colonel
8 Galic on that day?
9 A. It was Papa 5, as far as I remember.
10 Q. Following the meeting with Colonel Galic, did the situation with
11 respect to Papa 5 improve?
12 A. No. Because during my time, Papa 5 was targeted again, and I
13 witnessed the explosion when I witnessed the explosion at our observation
14 post from a distance.
15 Q. Do you recall the approximate time period that you witnessed an
16 explosion at Papa 5?
17 A. I couldn't say which day at this time. Sometime in April, is the
18 best I could say.
19 Q. And what steps did you take after you witnessed this explosion?
20 A. You mean, what progress I made?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. I arranged a meeting with Colonel Galic as soon as possible after
23 this incident, and I protested to him about it.
24 Q. Do you recall during this second meeting with Colonel Galic, what
25 you told him?
1 A. I told him that we were trying to find another position where we
2 could have an observation post, but I was not successful in finding a
3 position up to that date.
4 Q. Do you recall whether you discussed any other issues with Colonel
5 Galic at that meeting, other than Papa 5?
6 A. I don't recall discussing anything in particular, but I would have
7 made the normal protest about the issues going on at the time, if I had a
8 meeting with Colonel Galic.
9 Q. When you say, "the normal protest about the issues going on at the
10 time," what are you referring to?
11 A. I would be referring to the treatment of my UNMOs, the sniping
12 that has been carried out and the indiscriminate shelling, and the
13 stopping of humanitarian aid coming into the city.
14 Q. What do you mean when you say "the indiscriminate shelling"?
15 A. I considered a lot of the shelling was not -- was not targeted on
16 military targets, that shells were landing in all areas. And I could not
17 understand these to be military targets.
18 Q. Upon what did you base this conclusion that you held?
19 A. Basically, from my previous experiences with UN missions, and I
20 could see no military purpose in a lot of the shelling that has been
21 carried out.
22 Q. Did you convey these concerns to General Galic?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Do you recall what, if anything, he said to you in response?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Having reflected a bit,
2 I have to intervene because of the interpretation. According to the
3 interpretation with regard to the -- to most of the shelling, this is not
4 what the witness said. He didn't say "for the most part," he
5 said "numerous shelling." I think it is necessary to distinguish this.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, certainly proper attention will be taken in
7 respect of your observation.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
9 MR. MUNDIS:
10 Q. Commandant O'Keeffe, let me repeat the question: Do you recall
11 what, if anything, he said to you in response?
12 A. I only remember one particular phrase that comes to mind, and he
13 said that he was going to make this area safe for his children's children.
14 Q. Other than these two instances that you have described for us, did
15 you ever meet with General Galic on any other occasion?
16 A. Yes. I cannot say exactly how many times, but when I was visiting
17 the UNMOs on the Lima side, I would always call to the UNMO headquarters
18 which was situated in Lukavica barracks. And I almost every time asked to
19 see Colonel Galic or the gentleman that was known as the liaison officer
20 during my visit.
21 Q. You said you cannot say exactly how many times. Are you in a
22 position to say approximately how many times you saw Colonel Galic?
23 A. I think maybe eight or nine times, but I am not sure.
24 Q. Would it be fair to characterise these visits with General Galic
25 or Colonel Galic at that time as being examples of military courtesy or
2 A. Affirmative, yes.
3 Q. Do you recall on any of these eight or nine occasions if you had
4 any substantive discussions with him?
5 A. I cannot recall these meetings as such and what was stated at
6 these meetings.
7 Q. Would it be fair to characterise these brief meetings as simply
8 an opportunity for you to inform the corps commander that you were in his
9 headquarters building?
10 A. Not really. I would have -- I would have discussed -- I would
11 have discussed certain ongoing issues with him. It would be normal for
12 me to do this.
13 Q. Can you give us some examples of these ongoing issues?
14 A. Well, I don't -- I don't recall speaking to him about any
15 particular issues during these meetings as such. So I would be wrong to
16 say -- I couldn't -- sorry. I can't say that I discussed any particular
17 issue with him during these meetings.
18 Q. Do you recall approximately how many times you met with the
19 liaison officer at Lukavica barracks?
20 A. I would think approximately eight or nine times.
21 Q. Do you recall the name of the liaison officer that you met with at
22 Lukavica barracks?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you recall what issues you discussed with the liaison officer
25 at Lukavica barracks?
1 A. No, I don't recall. I am not good with names and -- because I
2 don't even recall the senior military observer's name who was at Lukavica
3 barracks at that time.
4 Q. When you say, "the senior military observer at Lukavica," do you
5 mean the liaison officer?
6 A. Yes. He was the liaison officer and also the senior military
7 observer on the Lima side.
8 Q. This would be the senior UNMO on the Lima side; is that correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Commandant O'Keeffe, upon your arrival or shortly after your
11 arrival in Sarajevo, did you have the opportunity to travel around the
12 various Lima observation posts?
13 A. In my first week, I travelled all -- to all the Lima positions.
14 Q. Was this part of an orientation programme to familiarise you with
15 the Lima OPs?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. During the time you were on this orientation tour, did you have
18 the opportunity to visit any of the Bosnian Serb army gun locations?
19 A. Yes, I visited some locations.
20 Q. Do you recall approximately how many locations you visited?
21 A. Maybe two or three. I am not sure.
22 Q. During the orientation tour while you were at these gun
23 locations, did you see any of the Bosnian Serb army guns being fired?
24 A. Yes. I witnessed at one position a large -- a large amount of
25 rounds being fired.
1 Q. Do you recall the approximate location of these gun positions?
2 A. No, I couldn't -- I couldn't say where it was.
3 Q. Do you recall approximately how many rounds were fired?
4 A. My impression is that up to about 500 rounds were fired during the
5 time when I was at this position.
6 Q. Do you recall witnessing or seeing where those rounds were
8 A. No, I couldn't see from the gun position where they landed.
9 Q. Do you recall any of the details, any other details, about what
10 you saw on that day at that location?
11 A. No, I don't recall any other details.
12 Q. Do you recall at any other time during your tenure in Sarajevo,
13 being at a Bosnian Serb army gun line when guns were being fired?
14 A. Yes. I was visiting one Lima position on a certain day and I was
15 brought to one or the gun positions, and they were firing from that
16 position on that day.
17 Q. Do you recall approximately how many rounds were fired on that
19 A. I think roughly around 200 rounds is what I recall.
20 Q. Do you recall being at Bosnian Serb army gun lines at any time
21 when a gunner was being trained?
22 A. Yes. The incident I am referring to, I was told that one of the
23 gunners was being trained that day.
24 Q. What do you recall that you witnessed with respect to that
1 A. I recall, in particular, the amount of ammunition that was placed
2 near the guns at the site because it amazed me that there was so much
3 ammunition out in the open, ready to be fired.
4 Q. Do you recall approximately how much ammunition you saw?
5 A. I couldn't put a figure on it, but I can picture a heap of
6 ammunition, which would be approximately, maybe, 6 metres long by 4 metres
7 high -- sorry, 3 metres high. 6 metres long, 3 metres high and 3 metres
8 wide, which to me was a lot of ammunition at the gun site.
9 Q. Did you have any discussions with any of the UNMOs with respect
10 to the amounts of ammunition near Bosnian Serb army guns?
11 A. My lasting impression was that there was absolutely no problem at
12 any time about the amount of ammunition that was available to all the
13 weapons on the Bosnian Serb side.
14 Q. Thank you, Commandant O'Keeffe.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Prosecution has no further questions, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
17 I never heard you anywhere indicate that you were referring to any
18 newly translated. Is that --
19 MR. MUNDIS: That is correct, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you, under the present
21 circumstances, tell us whether you are or whether you would be within a
22 reasonable time, ready to cross-examine the witness?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to tell
24 you the truth. I don't know. I don't know because we haven't had the
25 time to have a look at the documents and to confer with General Galic. As
1 a result, I don't know.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be of any assistance to have a break at this
3 moment, perhaps a break which lasts a bit longer than usual, so that
4 you would have an opportunity to discuss the present situation with
5 General Galic and then inform the Chamber where we are?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I thank you for
7 that. We also respect this witness who shouldn't be kept here for too
8 long. I think an extended pause would be interesting, but I don't think
9 that it would suffice for us to see what all the problems are. But
10 if we could advance a bit and take this break and perhaps start with
11 cross-examining this witness, and we have seen in addition that he can't
12 remember much, why not?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would prefer that you would refrain from
14 commenting on --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, before we break, if in fact we are
19 going to break at this time, if the Chamber is able to provide any
20 clarification with respect to the next witness, the Prosecution would be
21 grateful so that we could notify the Victims and Witnesses Unit in respect
22 to whether that witness will be testifying today or tomorrow.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we were informed that the next witness would be
24 Mr. Thomas, but that the Prosecution would need further time to prepare
25 the examination-in-chief. So perhaps I should ask a similar question to
1 you, that during the break, to consider whether you would be prepared to
2 start the examination of the next witness.
3 MR. MUNDIS: As you correctly stated, Mr. President, Mr. Thomas
4 is the next witness. We would be prepared to start with him in
5 examination-in-chief tomorrow at 1415 hours, the regularly scheduled time
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means that you would have no other witness
8 for today?
9 MR. MUNDIS: That is correct, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, it highly depends on what happens in
11 the rest of this afternoon. It is very difficult for us at this moment to
12 give you an indication.
13 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, should any special measures be taken in order
14 to make the full time for the next break available to you to confer with
15 General Galic or is that just a matter of routine?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What do you mean by "special
17 measures," Mr. President?
18 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether -- for whatever security reasons
19 or organisational reasons, if you would adjourn now, would you be in a
20 position to confer with General Galic?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] To the extent that I will be
22 permitted to take my computer to the room, and documents, then I will do
23 so, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any security issues in taking
25 computers to the conference room?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 We will adjourn until 4.00. If there is any specific problem in
2 that respect, the Chamber would like to be informed about it right away.
3 So not after the break but even during the break, whenever it comes up, so
4 that we can see whether there will be a solution for that. But let me
5 just first listen to the always wise words of Madam Registrar.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: I am informed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that taking your
8 computer to the room where you confer with General Galic will not be a
9 problem. And the documents, I take it that is similar, yes.
10 Then we will adjourn until 4.00.
11 --- Break taken at 3.16 p.m
12 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you inform the Chamber
14 about the position the Defence takes at this very moment.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
16 Defence counsel has used the time of this break, and we thank you for
17 that, and we have tried to confer with General Galic and we arrived at the
18 following conclusion: What we will do, if the Trial Chamber allows us to
19 do so, is to cross-examine in tandem, so both of us will examine this
20 witness. And we would like to point out that if it seems to be necessary
21 at the end of this hearing to call the witness back, we will ask the
22 permission of the Trial Chamber to do so. But, for the moment, we will do
23 everything we can on the basis of the few extra minutes we have had in
24 order to prepare this.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
1 Before giving you the opportunity to do so, Mr. Mundis, may I ask
2 you, since at the beginning of the examination-in-chief I asked the
3 Prosecution to indicate where it would refer to these, well, let's say,
4 newly translated lines: When did you inform the Defence that you would
5 not do so or was it just did it come up in your mind during
7 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, are you referring to using the
8 documents that had been listed as exhibits?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but also those documents provided to the Defence
10 indicating which lines you might confront the witness with and giving a
11 translation of these lines. That is what I understood it happened.
12 MR. MUNDIS: The decision was taken during the course of the
13 examination not to confront the witness with any of the documents.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because if you would have taken the decision
15 prior to starting the examination-in-chief, of course, it would have been
16 proper to inform the Defence.
17 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Because they are, I take it, very much concentrating
19 on these documents and spending a lot of time on it. It is a bit of
20 unlucky course of events first providing them with, well, at least an
21 indication of what you might use. I mean, otherwise, you might not have
22 taken the effort to have those parts translated. I appreciate that it was
23 in the mind of the Prosecution to assist the Defence. But they are shaken
24 from one point to another, and that takes a lot of energy in preparing for
25 cross-examination as well.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely, Mr. President. I understand.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So I just wanted to make that clear to start with so
3 that, with a clear and open mind, we could now ask the usher again to --
4 ask the usher to -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. In order
6 to be -- to respect the practice of the parties, we made use of this
7 witness and had a cassette viewed. This decision was taken in the cell,
8 if I may say so, after what we were able to decide. We have a copy here,
9 one for the Prosecution, one for the Registry, of course, but we weren't
10 able to inform of this 24 hours in advance. We were put in a spot, in a
11 certain sense.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You heard, Mr. Mundis, that Mr. Piletta-Zanin
13 just announced that they will have a videocassette, that is what I
14 understand, being shown to the witness, that they will have a
15 videocassette shown to the witness and that they decided only during this
16 break to do so.
17 MR. MUNDIS: I understand what Mr. Piletta-Zanin has said,
18 Mr. President. I certainly have not seen this tape.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we follow the same procedure, that is, that we
20 discuss the issues at the very moment where we know exactly what the issue
21 is about. If it is a videotape that you are viewing five times a week, it
22 might not be necessary to ask for further preparation time.
23 MR. MUNDIS: If I could, Mr. President, if this is a tape that
24 has been disclosed by the Prosecution, if my learned friend could so
25 indicate, perhaps we could then --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no. It is a personal --
2 personal tape, a personal production, Mr. Mundis.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Has it been disclosed to the Prosecution before?
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, since we
5 thought we would use it for another witness, but given what we have found
6 out, no, no.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't there is reciprocal disclosure among the
8 parties which would entitle the Prosecution to inspect? So it is on the
9 list of those objects to be inspected by the Prosecution.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, because we
11 never tendered it. We have never offered it to the Prosecution until
12 now. The decision was just taken. We have these documents in another
13 cupboard, and we suddenly took this decision.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to make it clear. Is it not the case
15 that the reciprocal of this disclosure has been triggered by the Defence
16 itself under Rule - I see that my colleague is just trying to find the
17 rule of reciprocal disclosure - under Rule 67.
18 If the Defence makes a request pursuant to Rule 66(B), and as far
19 as I understand such a request has been made, but please correct me if I
20 am wrong, then the Prosecutor shall be entitled to inspect any books,
21 documents, photographs or tangible objects which are within the custody or
22 control of the Defence and which it intends to use as evidence.
23 You say you only now decided -- when did you decide that, during
24 the break?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we decided it
1 during the break, given our conference with General Galic. So it served a
2 purpose, that meeting. And we didn't have the time to prepare it with the
3 appropriate numbers and things. It is something that we had in one of our
4 cupboards. What we can do is provide the Prosecution with a cassette this
5 evening and then ask the witness to come back, but I don't think we will
6 gain much time. Given the urgency of the matter, we had to act in that
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't think my learned colleague
10 has answered the question that you have asked. There is a broader issue
11 here, and I don't seek to derail these proceedings. I appreciate that Mr.
12 O'Keeffe is waiting. Could I simply identify an issue, and at some later
13 stage in the week, having identified it, there could be further discussion
14 of this issue.
15 Approximately two weeks ago, I asked the Defence, in relation to
16 this Rule, if they had provided us with all of the material which they
17 were required to do under this Rule. And I was informed that I would be
18 advised in due course. I am yet to receive an answer.
19 Secondly, I specifically asked the Defence if I could inspect the
20 originals of the various orders and of the documents which appear to have
21 come from the archives of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and I was told I
22 would be advised about that. We still have not heard from the Defence in
23 relation to this tape, why it has not been disclosed to us.
24 Mr. President, perhaps at some appropriate time when we run out of
25 witnesses, either later today or tomorrow or Friday, we could revisit this
1 issue. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps it is not the proper time at this very
3 moment. I notice that request for inspection of originals have been made
4 several times by the Defence. I now hear that the Prosecution is asking
5 originals from the Defence. I think this is not a proper moment to
6 discuss that in rather general terms. I suggest that we first proceed
7 with the cross-examination of Mr. O'Keeffe and that the Prosecution will
8 have an opportunity on -- to see what the Prosecution would need after we
9 have seen the video. I do understand that it is new video. Is it in a
10 form to which it can be played? And you have copies for everyone?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have the original here for
12 the usher and we have the same for the Prosecution, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You have a copy for the Prosecution already?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, we do.
15 JUDGE ORIE: It was very fortunate that, when we took the
16 decision, there was at least copies for the other party as well.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, one remaining matter. Might Mr.
18 Thomas be excused for the remainder of this session? We could contact the
19 Victims and Witnesses Unit if you thought it appropriate.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed by Mr. Mundis that he could not be
21 examined today. So we accepted that, perhaps not specifically, but we did
22 not oppose against the observation of Mr. Mundis that he would not be
23 available to testify today.
24 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the video, do you want portions
2 to be played or do you want the whole video to be played? The video you
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. I was talking
5 with my colleague. It is rather brief in duration, 2 minutes 25, so we
6 will show it in its entirety.
7 JUDGE ORIE: It is not more than two minutes, okay. Perhaps you
8 already give it to the booth that they could already put it on the --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will give it -- I will
10 provide the booth with it now.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I see that Madam Registrar is now
12 performing all essential functions in this courtroom.
13 We will wait until the usher returns and then ask him to escort
14 Mr. O'Keeffe in the courtroom.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher.
17 Mr. O'Keeffe, we apologise for having you to wait so long.
18 THE WITNESS: No problem, sir.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But, as usual, lawyers have their procedural issues
20 they want to discuss.
21 Mr. O'Keeffe, you will now be cross-examined, at least,
22 cross-examining will start and you will be cross-examined by counsel for
23 the Defence.
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Commandant, good day.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Commandant, I will ask questions in French. Can you hear me?
5 A. Yes, I can.
6 Q. As we say in our profession, five-to-five?
7 A. I don't understand "five-to-five."
8 Q. That usually means loud and clear, perfectly. Can you hear me
9 loud and clear?
10 A. Affirmative.
11 Q. Just to be clear. Commandant, have you made a written statement
12 to the Prosecution?
13 A. Yes, I have.
14 Q. Would you tell us what the date was?
15 A. I don't remember. It was about three years ago when I made the
17 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I would like to provide you with
18 the text of your statement and I would like you to confirm simply that
19 this is your signature on the document, if you please. If the Chamber
20 allows me.
21 A. Yes, that is my signature.
22 Q. Commandant, would you agree with me that your statement was made
23 on May 12, 13, and 14, 1998?
24 A. If that is the date that the -- that is written on the document
25 that I signed, then I accept that as the correct date.
1 Q. Good. Sir, you spent a certain amount of time in Sarajevo. Do
2 you know whether it was usual for the observers, the military observers,
3 to devote more than three or four months of time in that town?
4 A. It was the normal practice at -- before I went to Sarajevo for the
5 UNMOs to have a rotation system every three months.
6 Q. In other words, Colonel, you are saying that, as a rule, the MOs,
7 military observers of the United Nations, did not stay longer than three
8 or four months in Sarajevo? As a rule, in principle, that is what I am
9 trying to ask you.
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Thank you for your answer.
12 Sir, is it correct to say that for reasons of protocol, the rule
13 in use was that one would address a colonel as a colonel and a major as a
14 major and a general -- to a general of equal rank; is that correct?
15 A. I am not sure what you are getting at.
16 Q. I shall rephrase my question.
17 When there was discussion, for instance, between representatives
18 of the UN and representatives of the belligerent side, whatever side it
19 may be, was it a rule that discussion would take place between officers of
20 the same rank?
21 A. Negative. The senior military observer, it had no rank structure.
22 I was a commandant rank, however, I had some colonels from different
23 nationalities under my control.
24 Q. Sir, thank you for your answer. My question did not relate to
25 internal matters. Was it usual that the UN -- the forces of the UN would
1 have contacts with -- contacts with the belligerent side of this same
2 rank? And I am referring here to protocol, to the usages in practice in
3 the protocol sense.
4 A. No. At different team sites, it would be the team leader who
5 would be making a protest to the local commander. Rank did not enter into
6 protocol with the UN military observers.
7 Q. Sir, are you trying to tell me that perhaps a lieutenant could
8 discuss with a general, discuss matters with a general?
9 A. It is possible. Highly unlikely, but it is possible, yes.
10 Q. Why "highly improbable"?
11 A. It would be highly improbable that a lieutenant would be in a
12 position that he would have to discuss items with a general.
13 Q. Sir, as far as you know, do you think that given the situation on
14 the ground, that a general, a corps commander, would accept to discuss
15 with -- matters with a lieutenant?
16 A. It depended -- it depended on the appointment the lieutenant had
17 at the particular time.
18 Q. Thank you for your answer, Commandant.
19 You spent about four months in Sarajevo. I would like to ask you
20 a series of questions and to which I would like you to answer by "yes" or
21 "no" because they call for such answers, "yes" or "no." Commandant, do
22 you know what was and where was -- what was Zetra and where it was
24 A. "Do you know what was and where was..." Sorry?
25 Q. What was Zetra. Z-e-t-r-a, Zetra?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You don't know where it was located, consequently?
3 A. Zetra doesn't ring a bell to me.
4 Q. Very well. Commandant --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Just to assist you, would it be possible, if you
6 would have similar questions, to ask one general question to the witness
7 and ask him to respond, for example, in the positive, if he knows
8 anything about it; and if you get no response, that it is in the negative.
9 That might be very efficient. It is just a suggestion.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am -- of course, I agree.
11 Q. Witness, do you know, Witness, where Zica was?
12 A. Can you spell it, please?
13 Q. Z-i "c" with an accent "a".
14 A. No.
15 Q. Commandant, could you please tell me if you know how many brigades
16 were located in Sarajevo during your stay there, brigades, 1st Corps of
17 the BH army?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Can you tell me or you do not know?
20 A. I cannot recollect. It was ten years ago. I cannot recollect. I
21 have been on three different missions since that mission, and I just don't
23 Q. Commandant, have you prepared this testimony with the
24 representatives of the Prosecution?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Have you re-read your statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did that refresh your recollection?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Commandant, do you know how many brigades or -- were located in
6 Sarajevo at the time?
7 A. No, I do not recollect. I don't think in my statement I mentioned
8 a number of brigades.
9 Q. No, that is true, you did not mention the number. Therefore,
10 Commandant, is it true that you cannot tell us either how many
11 commandments of posts, command and control posts of the battalions, not
12 the brigades? Is that true?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. When you say it is correct, that means, "I cannot tell you." Is
15 that what it means?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Commandant, the same -- the same applies to the command post of
18 the companies?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. We have testimony that speak of the existence of mobile military
21 targets. The question is: Have you ever seen such mobile military
22 objectives or targets in Sarajevo?
23 A. No, I have not.
24 Q. Commandant, were you aware of the fact that there were such
25 military objectives in Sarajevo?
1 A. Yes, I was aware.
2 Q. Could you tell us what these objectives were?
3 A. I heard that there were one or two mobile mortar platforms within
5 Q. Commandant, what are you calling "mortar platforms" and what were
6 their calibres?
7 A. What I am calling is a vehicle with mortars mounted on the back of
8 the vehicle.
9 Q. You are saying "mortars." Are you referring to several mortars, a
10 large number of mortars?
11 A. I am referring to a vehicle with a mortar or mortars mounted on
12 the vehicle.
13 Q. Thank you, Commandant. Commandant, no information about the
14 calibre of those heavy weapon?
15 A. No, I had no information on this.
16 Q. Commandant, where did you get your information from regarding
17 these mobile military objectives?
18 A. It had been said to me that these were being used in Sarajevo. I
19 cannot remember who said it to me.
20 Q. If I tell you that that information comes from the information
21 service, would you say that this was acceptable?
22 A. What information service are you referring to?
23 Q. Well, it is a question of translation. "Secret service" is what I
24 had wanted to say.
25 A. I am not aware of any secret service in Sarajevo.
1 Q. Do you know of any other mobile targets? We are referring here to
2 vehicles, private vehicles, passenger cars, that could be used for
3 transporting mortars.
4 A. I did not know of any. I didn't know of any particular ones
5 during my time.
6 Q. Commandant, do you know whether the forces of Sarajevo or the BH
7 army, whether they had tanks, and if so, how many?
8 A. I know they had some tanks because at the time these tanks were
9 kept in a compound and if the tanks -- I believe there were only a few,
10 maybe two or three, and if these tanks were not in the compound when our
11 UNMOs visited, they reported it.
12 Q. Consequently, General, you are saying that these tanks could move
13 and that they actually moved?
14 A. Yes, that is correct. That if they were not in the compound,
15 obviously, they had moved in the city.
16 Q. I apologise for calling you "General," but you didn't react, but I
17 apologise anyway.
18 Have you, yourself, seen them open fire?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Commandant, do you know whether the -- if the forces of the BH
21 army had the following weapons: Mortar batteries of 120 millimetres?
22 A. I couldn't definitely say. I didn't observe the weapons.
23 However, if our UNMOs reported that there had been outgoing fire of
24 120-millimetre mortars, then they had those. They had those mortars if
25 our UNMOs reported this fire.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. But as far as you know personally, you do not know?
2 A. I didn't see them.
3 Q. All right. But do you know whether there were such weapons?
4 A. I really don't remember. If -- there are plenty written reports
5 during the UNMOs' time. If they reported outgoing 120-millimetre mortars,
6 then the Bosnian army had these weapons.
7 Q. Witness, if I understood you correctly -- I understood you
8 correctly, but your knowledge of the reports that existed are not perhaps
9 those that we have in this Chamber. That is why I am saying, "as far as
10 you know," not whether you have seen them. Whether the Muslim forces had
11 these 120-millimetre weapons, if so, answer, yes; if not, no.
12 A. I really cannot answer that question. I have answered it already,
13 saying that if we reported 120-millimetre mortars outgoing fire, which
14 there is plenty evidence I am sure of, then they had --
15 Q. Very well, Commandant I'll interrupt you. Thank you. I think I
16 have your answer.
17 Commandant, the same question for 80-millimetre mortars: Do you
18 remember anything about that? 82 millimetres, I apologise.
19 A. We had a reporting system, and if those weapons were there, the
20 outgoing fire would have been reported and the number of rounds that were
21 fired. I -- the different types of mortars, I couldn't be sure in my
22 memory at this stage.
23 Q. Very well. Let's forget about the mortars since you can't
24 remember about that, and I understand you. Could you reply to the same
25 question but with regard to what are called Howitzers? 105 millimetres.
1 A. I regret to say that I have to give the same answer.
2 Q. Thank you. I accept that answer, Commandant, thank you.
3 Commandant, if I ask you about the Kacusas, what we call multiple
4 rocket launchers, would the answer be the same?
5 A. No, it wouldn't be the same.
6 Q. Why?
7 A. I cannot remember Kacusas as such being fired from the Bosnian
9 Q. Commandant, I would like to ask you the same question with regard
10 to the triple-A guns, the anti-aircraft guns.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could Defence please repeat the calibres.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
13 Q. From 30 to 12.7 millimetres. It seems we have a problem with
15 JUDGE ORIE: It might not have been a translation problem, but you
16 pronounced the calibres quite quickly. It now reads on the transcript
17 "from 30 to 12.7 millimetres."
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So the question is about anti-aircraft guns from 30
20 to 12.7 millimetres, Mr. O'Keeffe.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe that these weapons were in Sarajevo.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you for that answer, Commandant.
24 Sir, do you know whether the forces in Sarajevo had any sniper
25 units, too?
1 A. I know that there was sniping being carried out from inside the
2 city, yes.
3 Q. So the incidents -- these would be incidents that caused loss of
4 life, wounded people, et cetera?
5 A. I cannot remember specific incidents, but I was aware that there
6 was sniping being carried out from inside the city, if I can refer to it
7 that way.
8 Q. These sniper shots came from the city and did they target people
9 in the city as well?
10 A. My UNMOs would have reported sniping being carried on in certain
11 areas and those reports would have been sent to our headquarters. I would
12 not be referring to particular sniping incidents. I would be looking at
13 the overall view of how the sniping -- of how much sniping was being
14 carried on at a particular time.
15 Q. Very well, Commandant. So I will ask you this question in a
16 general manner: Do you know whether in this global view of the things
17 that you had, and you have mentioned about the existence of snipers,
18 sniper shots coming from within the city, do you know whether there were
19 any cases of shots from -- coming from the city and directed at the city?
20 A. No, I don't know of any incidents.
21 Q. Commandant, do you know where the front lines were located?
22 A. I didn't know exactly but we had our map, and our maps were drawn
23 which indicated the front line at the time. And I passed through the
24 front line every time I went to Lukavica. And the front lines, as we saw
25 them, changed a little quite frequently.
1 Q. Commandant, during your stay, were you aware of the fact that a
2 tunnel was being dug under the airport tarmac?
3 A. Yes, I was aware. Without it having been confirmed, I believed
4 that there was a tunnel being dug under the tarmac.
5 Q. Sir, a while ago you mentioned the shelling of Sarajevo. Do you
6 remember that?
7 A. What particular shelling of Sarajevo?
8 Q. You spoke in general terms about shelling and I think that you
9 mentioned the shelling of an observation post in the centre of Sarajevo.
10 Do you remember that?
11 A. I mentioned the -- an explosion at one of our observation posts,
12 but this was a tank round that hit the observation post.
13 Q. Very well. With regard to this incident, could you remind us of
14 the date of this incident?
15 A. No, but I am sure it is in the records somewhere, but I do not
16 have a record of this incident.
17 Q. Sir, with regard to this particular incident, could you confirm
18 that at the time of the explosion that you mentioned, operations were in
19 progress, that is to say, there was fighting in the surroundings of
21 A. Yes, there was an attack being carried out at that time.
22 Q. Thank you for that answer.
23 When you say, "an attack," if that comes from a commandant, if a
24 commandant talks about an attack, it is not just a simple skirmish; isn't
25 that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Sir, a while ago, you said that civilian zones were shelled. You
3 mentioned this in general terms. Do you remember talking about this?
4 A. I don't think I remember civilians. I didn't say "civilian zones"
5 at any time.
6 Q. Very well, Commandant. So civilian zones were never shelled in
7 Sarajevo, according to you?
8 A. I never mentioned civilian zones. To me --
9 Q. Commandant, I will ask you the following question: In your
10 opinion, were civilian zones in Sarajevo shelled?
11 A. Yes, civilian zones in Sarajevo were shelled, in my opinion.
12 Q. Very well. Commandant, first of all, I will put to you the
13 following question: When you insist that there was shelling, how do you
14 define what would be a civilian zone in Sarajevo and what would not be a
15 civilian zone in Sarajevo?
16 A. Civilians, what I am referring to is basically a non-military
17 target, that it was areas -- areas where normal life was going on, and I
18 did not believe that there was military activities in those areas
19 justifying the shelling that was going on.
20 Q. Very well, Commandant. You used the terms, you said, "I don't
21 think so," but what are the means, or what were the means, of being
22 certain that there were no military targets, mobile military targets, when
23 this shelling took place?
24 A. When our monitors were observing, they reported on incoming
25 rounds landing in particular areas. And they reported to me that there
1 was no military activity, to their knowledge, going on in these particular
3 Q. Commandant, if we agree that there were military targets which
4 existed, how can one be absolutely certain that in an area that was
5 shelled which you say was a civilian area, how can one be certain that
6 there wasn't a mobile military target there, whatever the nature of this
7 target? And I am asking how can one be certain of this.
8 A. It depends on what you consider a military target. Because of
9 the fact one person with a pistol is carrying a pistol and you say that
10 this person is a military target, or one small vehicle has one -- you
11 believe to have one mortar in it, this does not justify firing 1.55 -- 155
12 ^ shells, numerous 155 shells into a particular area.
13 Q. Commandant, what did you know about the uniforms that were worn by
14 the BH army at the time of your stay?
15 A. Absolutely nothing.
16 Q. Commandant, are you telling me that you didn't know whether the
17 army wore uniforms or what sort of uniforms they had?
18 A. No, I am not saying that. But I did not pay a particular interest
19 to the uniforms that -- uniforms in the city at that particular time. I
20 was very much more interested in meeting people who had influence and who
21 could do something about the crisis situation.
22 Q. Commandant, in your own mind, you gave us a definition of civilian
23 zones. Would you agree with me in saying that the Presidency could be
24 described as a military target?
25 A. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't consider that.
1 Q. Is it exact, is it true to say that the Presidency was the abode
2 of the supreme commander of the army?
3 A. As far as I knew, yes.
4 Q. Commandant, a building in which the supreme commander is located
5 is, in your opinion, not a military target?
6 A. Not as far as this situation.
7 Q. Commandant, I didn't mention a ceasefire, never mentioned a
8 ceasefire. Please answer my question. Don't you consider that the place
9 where the supreme chief of the army is staying, do you think that this is
10 not a military target? I would like things to be clear. Please answer
11 the question.
12 A. Yes, it would be a military target.
13 Q. Very well. Thank you very much for this answer.
14 Commandant, I would like to put the same question to you for
15 vital, important telecommunications centres.
16 A. Yes, I would say it.
17 Q. Thank you. Sir, I would like to ask you the same question with
18 regard to important communication centres, and by that I mean the ground
19 centres, both the road networks and the railway network.
20 A. Yes, I would have to agree, yes.
21 Q. Than you. Commandant, is it true that command posts, what is
22 usually called command and control posts, are these what we could call
23 legitimate military targets?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Sir, is it true that the operational means, military operational
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 equipment, that this, too, is a legitimate military target?
2 A. Sorry, can you -- can you say that again, please?
3 Q. When I say, "military operational equipment," I am talking about
4 mobile equipment such as tanks, transporters, other mobile operational
5 equipment that is used by an army.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Sir, groups of soldiers going into operation, in your opinion, are
8 such groups legitimate military targets?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Sir, if many soldiers in Sarajevo did not have regular uniforms,
11 how could military observers of the UN categorically exclude the presence
12 of such groups when there was shelling, the presence of such groups going
13 into operation but people who didn't wear or who weren't wearing a
15 A. Of course, the UN military observers couldn't categorically
16 exclude what as -- from my experience, you are trying to say that every
17 person in Sarajevo was --
18 Q. No, sir, I have to interrupt you. I can't allow that. I can't
19 allow you to interpret what I said. I am just asking you a question,
20 that's all.
21 If there is something that categorically allowed UN officers to
22 exclude this possibility, say so. If not, say so as well.
23 A. Naturally, categorically, they couldn't say this, but in their
24 experience, they would be able to say it.
25 Q. Very well. You say that on the basis of experience, they could
1 have known that. How could they have known whether a group of 10, 15 or
2 20 people passed through there, how could they have known that if there
3 was no way of distinguishing these men from the remainder of the
4 population? How would this have been possible for them to know?
5 A. Basically, this would -- they would rely on their experience and
6 training, making these observations.
7 Q. Sir, if a troop is present just before a shell and then disappear
8 into thin air, how can UN observers be aware of this fact? There is such
9 thing as experience but, technically speaking, how could they have known
11 A. If they didn't observe it, they wouldn't have known it.
12 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.
13 Commandant --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Whether you would change to another subject, you
15 said you would split up the time between you and Ms. Pilipovic. I just
16 noticed that you took already more than the examination-in-chief, so I
17 don't know what there is still to be split up. On the other hand, I also
18 noticed that the examination-in-chief was very brief compared to what was
19 indicated before. But I would like to have an indication of you now about
20 the time.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a few
22 questions that have to do with humanitarian issues, a cassette which takes
23 2 minutes and 25 seconds, and then a few brief questions that will be put
24 by Ms. Pilipovic.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ten minutes, would that be fair? I am asking you
1 that because I notice now and then that if a certain limited time is given
2 to you, that the efficiency raises greatly.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Since you say to me -- are you
4 speaking to me personally? Is it the "vous" which is singular in French
5 or the "vous" which is plural?
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... to use the
7 English language; it makes no distinction. If 10 minutes would not be
8 enough -- would 10 minutes for you be enough, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Ten minutes for me, that would
10 be necessary and sufficient.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I expect that Ms. Pilipovic takes over at quarter
12 past 5.00.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Commandant, a while ago, you spoke about brigades. Do you know
15 whether at that time there was a brigade, a Mujahedin Brigade in Sarajevo?
16 A. No, I didn't know of --
17 Q. Thank you, sir.
18 Do you know whether there was a brigade which consisted also of
20 A. No.
21 Q. Sir, you said that one of the missions of the UN observers was to
22 verify the transport of humanitarian aid; is that correct?
23 A. No, it was to assist in the humanitarian aid convoys as such.
24 Q. Very well. So to assist the convoys. Were there UNHCR convoys
25 among these convoys?
1 A. Yes, as far as I am aware, yes, there were UNHCR convoys.
2 Q. Sir, is it true to say that in the statement that we referred to
3 earlier on that you made a few years ago, is it true to say that you told
4 the Serbs that you would do everything you could to ensure that
5 humanitarian convoys were also sent over to the Serbians to solve problems
6 of poverty and misfortune?
7 A. I put the UNHCR in contact with people on the Serbian side.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that
9 this would be a good time to have a look at the cassette. I hope that we
10 won't have any problems with showing it because I know that, in the past,
11 we have had such problems. So I would just like to say that I hope there
12 won't be any problems.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see what happens when we ask the technical
14 booth to play the video. But perhaps first, Mr. Mundis.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in his absence, Mr. Ierace has
16 reviewed the videotape and has e-mailed me with respect to the tape. I
17 would like to query Mr. Piletta-Zanin whether he is planning on having the
18 audio portion of the tape played as well, or simply the video?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Both, both.
20 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would object to the audio portion of
21 the tape being played, for reasons which I can elaborate on, if you wish.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it be wise to do it in the presence of
23 the witness or should we do it in the absence of the witness?
24 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that it be done in the absence of the
25 witness, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. O'Keeffe, since there is a certain
2 objection against what is going to be played to you, we would rather
3 discuss it in your absence. I hope you don't mind, and I hope you do
5 So, Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. O'Keeffe out of the
7 [The witness stands downs]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, it appears from the information I
10 received via e-mail that the videotape is a Bosnian Serb television
11 report having to do with humanitarian aid convoys. It appears to be a
12 news report, and it includes a voice-over and an interview of someone in
13 Serbian. And the reason we would object to that would be a couple of
14 reasons, first of all, whether or not this witness would have seen this
15 news report. I believe, if this witness were to be asked, he would inform
16 the Trial Chamber that he does not in fact speak, nor understand, the
17 Serbian language. So for us, our position would be that the audio that is
18 contained on this news report would have little or no probative value, nor
19 relevance to the proceedings.
20 If the intent is simply to show him the video of what is contained
21 on the videotape and to ask him if he has seen these things or if he can
22 comment or elaborate on them, we have no objection. But with respect to
23 playing a news report in a language that the witness doesn't understand,
24 would seem, to the Prosecution, to have little or no probative value and
25 no relevance.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from whether there is a translation available
2 for the Bench and for the Prosecution to understand what -- you prepared
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is in fact
5 the text, the entire text, of what is said on that tape, and what we
6 suggest is that we provide the booths with the text so that they can
7 verify what is said and perhaps translate what is said on the tape. A
8 cassette without text seems to be a little truncated. I think there are
9 important translations here.
10 Now I have to admit that I failed to do so, I omitted it, because
11 I thought that the translation could be done immediately in the Office of
12 the Prosecutor. They have a lot of translators there
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...unfortunate that
14 you had a translation prepared.
15 One moment, please.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber finds that you should
18 first provide now the translation to the Prosecution, that the Prosecution
19 is in a position just to read what is said. It cannot be more than two
20 minutes, so it cannot be a very long text. As far as we understand,
21 Mr. Ierace, you have at least seen the video. You will now be provided by
22 a written translation of the text, and not show it before the Prosecution
23 has had an opportunity to at least to read what text is used in the video.
24 Then we will see -- after they have had an opportunity to do so, we will
25 see whether we could proceed in playing the video to the witness or
1 whatever could happen.
2 Perhaps, in order to give some time, we could have an early break
3 since we might not end very late today. So if we would take our
4 relatively short break now for 20 minutes, that would mean that we would
5 resume at 25 minutes to 6.00. Then, Mr. Ierace, you will have an
6 opportunity to read the text and confer with Mr. Mundis, and then we could
7 continue afterward.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. On
9 page 49, line 2 of the transcript, it is not --
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...a translation had
11 been prepared so that we can at least proceed at this very moment and we
12 are not dependent on provisional translations to be made.
13 We will adjourn for 20 minutes. Could please Mr. O'Keeffe be
14 informed? I don't know who is taking care. Could you please, Mr. Usher,
15 inform Mr. O'Keeffe that we take the opportunity to have a break until 5
16 minutes past -- no, I have to say 25 minutes to 6.00.
17 --- Break taken at 5.15 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 5.39 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I see you are on your feet so I take it
20 that you have read the translation.
21 MR. IERACE: I have, Mr. President, and I have made some copies of
22 the English transcript which Mr. Piletta-Zanin gave me, if you or the
23 other members of the Bench wish a copy.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it depends on if the video will be played. I
25 think the first ones who need a copy are the interpreters. If they have a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 copy, I might do without, but if there are any other copies, the Chamber
2 would be glad to have them.
3 MR. IERACE: Yes, I will hand over the English translation.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence has copies. They
6 can make them available.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to have for the Chamber four copies, two
8 of the Defence and two of the Prosecution.
9 May I take it that the interpreters' booth have been provided with
10 copies? Yes.
11 Two more copies for the Prosecution. Thank you. Is there
12 anything else you would like to --
13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I would like to amplify my
14 objection to not only the playing of the audio, but more fundamentally,
15 the playing of the video altogether. Firstly, having regard to the
16 transcript, it is confirmed that this tape purports to be a copy of a
17 television, presumably, news transmission --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. IERACE: -- in relation to an incident at Ilidza, undated -
20 which is important - where apparently arms in the form of ammunition were
21 smuggled into -- attempted to be smuggled into Sarajevo from Split. Now
22 that is according to the transcript.
23 My first point is that given it is undated, it is therefore
24 entirely unclear whether this is an incident which took place during the
25 time that the witness was in Sarajevo.
1 My second point is that assuming it is an incident which occurred
2 during the tenure of the witness in Sarajevo, the appropriate course is
3 simply to put to the witness: Are you aware of an incident when
4 ammunition was discovered, concealed within a humanitarian aid shipment?
5 If the witness says he is not, then that is the end of the matter.
6 Showing the video then has no relevance at all.
7 Thirdly, in relation to the voice-over, once you have had an
8 opportunity to read the transcript, it will become apparent that it
9 contains the opinions of someone, presumably the reporter or whoever wrote
10 the text, beyond that, a comment from herself and a person whom she
11 interviewed who purported to be some sort of security officer or police
13 Mr. President, there is a more fundamental objection. What is the
14 relevance of this to the Defence case? Is the Defence saying that
15 ammunition was smuggled into Sarajevo in United Nations' convoys or other
16 humanitarian aid convoys and, therefore, the United Nations' vehicles or
17 humanitarian aid vehicles or United Nations personnel became legitimate
18 military targets? This needs to be spelled out.
19 If that is not what the Defence is saying, then in what way is
20 this relevant, assuming that it is true. Thank you, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's first ask Mr. Piletta-Zanin what he seeks
22 to establish by showing this video to the witness and ask the witness
23 questions about it.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I would
25 agree with Mr. Ierace concerning the audio part and when he says that it
1 expresses the opinion of a journalist. But, since it is something that we
2 have re-copied, we wish to re-copy it in its entirety, both audio and the
3 images, so as not to be blamed for concealing something. What we wish to
4 seek to establish is that, very often, the Prosecution indicates that
5 there may have been problems with vehicles which were of an interest to
6 the UN forces. This, we could see yesterday.
7 Now, whatever the decision may be, and without wishing to say that
8 this or that object bearing the UN designation, the Defence nevertheless
9 wishes to show that there may have been some case of nervousness among
10 some, and that at levels inferior to General Galic, and there may have
11 been aggressive action. And this is something that we have to establish
12 during the general proceedings because the Prosecution has mentioned that
13 the witness has said certain things, and we wish to strike a balance that
14 there have been serious cases where the staff, the personnel that the tape
15 deals with, was involved in trafficking of arms, and I think we should not
16 omit mentioning this.
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...what divides you
18 and Mr. Ierace at this time is what the truth is. Of course, it cannot be
19 circumvented. I think -- but I am just trying to understand the positions
20 of the parties. I didn't hear Mr. Ierace say that no evidence should be
21 produced in respect of, as you called it, very serious events which might
22 have invoked certain reactions, without saying that UN personnel was ever
24 I think what we are dealing with is the way of introducing such
25 evidence. It might be that the witness knows something about it. I have
1 no idea. But do I understand you well, Mr. Ierace, that you are saying,
2 well, produce this evidence but not through a witness who might not know
3 anything about it?
4 MR. IERACE: Yes, subject to the issue of relevance. But the
5 threshold question, Mr. President, if you are of the view that it does
6 have relevance, is firstly, to enquire of the Defence what is the evidence
7 that this incident happened in the period that Mr. O'Keeffe was in
8 Sarajevo. Or at least, if my friend doesn't know that, to simply ask the
9 witness whether he is aware of such an incident.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. IERACE: Could I just add one further point, Mr. President?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. IERACE: What I seek is nothing more than what the Prosecution
14 has committed itself to. You will recall that during my opening, we
15 showed a collage of video clips. The evidence will be in relation to
16 those video clips from Mr. Lesic, Zoran Lesic, that most of those clips
17 came from television stations, and you will recall that there were
18 no voice-overs from commentators on those clips. All of those
19 voice-overs- there were some initially- were cleaned off because, clearly,
20 what a commentator says is not evidence. And so I merely seek to hold the
21 Defence to what the Prosecution regards as the proper aspects of such
22 sources of such material. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps to make one observation, because the Chamber
24 has given it some thought as well. The opinion of journalists is, of
25 course -- is very dangerous, especially in a jury trial, for professional
1 judges who have seen television on from when it started to appear in our
2 houses. And I am still the youngest. And whoever read newspapers since
3 they could read. Is not perhaps that -- it is not that fragile, I would
4 say, in a Bench trial as it is in a jury trial. I hope that you will
5 understand that so that we might be a bit more liberal on that issue.
6 Could you inform us, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of the dates of the
7 events, whether this was within the period of --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I will ask
9 the question -- I ask the question about the date to Madam Pilipovic, but
10 as a point of relevance, I would like to state the following: The
11 pictures that we will see will be the pictures that have to do with arms
12 trafficking. And we can see at a certain moment the ammunition that was
13 concealed there. And this witness stated that he could not remember
14 exactly what sort of weapons the BH army had during his stay there, and I
15 am almost sure that if we show, through this video, the ammunition and we
16 show it to this military person, he can say it will be 12.7 calibre
17 millimetres. We can conclude that if such ammunition is delivered, it is
18 delivered to be used and not to be stashed away.
19 As regards the date, I will ask about it. Mr. President, as you
20 have noted, where we had decided to use it on this part, we believe it to
21 be a date that corresponds to the date of this stay of the witness in
22 Sarajevo. We don't have the information here and now. We can look for
23 them later on but, at any rate, since the Defence is indicating this, that
24 these are events that have reoccurred, we wanted to ask the witness to
25 find out whether he was aware of the fact that such problems were noticed
1 and had indeed occurred.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, nothing that my learned colleague has
4 said has been responsive to the issues that I have raised. Most
5 significantly, it is not suggested by the Defence that Mr. O'Keeffe was
6 present when this convoy was allegedly found to contain ammunition on its
7 way on a route destined to Sarajevo. There is no reason why the course
8 that I have proposed should not be adopted. It is the proper course. The
9 witness should simply be asked if he is aware of such an incident, and
10 that is assuming that it has some probative value. And if he is not, that
11 is the end of it, because if he is not, what possible probative value is
12 there in playing him a series of images of an incident of which he has no
13 awareness? Thank you.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: What the Trial Chamber confirms,
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, did I hear you saying that it is not your intention to
17 say that the UN vehicles are a legitimate military target? You said that?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will be very clear. The
19 Defence has never said or nor has the intention of saying that, in its
20 view, that the UN troops were a legitimate military target. I will check
21 on the transcript.
22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: [Previous translation continues]...transcript
23 is not --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Thank you for your observation, sir, but what
25 I will say is that it was not definitely. I hope it's clear. Thanks very
2 JUDGE ORIE: This gives the opportunity to just to read the
3 transcript of the last one minute.
4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I said, "are not" again.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber finds it proper to start, at least, with
7 a question to the witness, whether he knows about this incident or these
8 kind of incidents. Once we know the answer to that question, then of
9 course we have to see what the next step will be.
10 May I make one observation, Mr. Piletta-Zanin? Where you at
11 least suggested several times that what was on the video was more or less
12 an undeniable fact, this Chamber never would assume on the mere basis of
13 looking at the video that it was an undeniable fact what was shown on the
14 video. This Chamber has also seen movies for some 50 years.
15 But, of course, a lot of things are true which is shown on
16 videos, but just in order to make clear what the position of the Chamber
17 will be anyhow, that whatever we see on a video, we will have to establish
18 whether this video reflects the truth or does not reflect the truth. That
19 is not only for videos of the Defence but is similarly true for whatever
20 video is shown by the Prosecution.
21 So, then, please could Mr. O'Keeffe be brought into the courtroom
22 again, and would you start with the question indicated?
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 The Defence hopes not to practice excessively anamorphose.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Our witness is now and then suffering under
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 procedural issues we deal with in their absence, but we now continue.
2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will ask the question,
4 but I want to repeat this for the transcript. "Anamorphose," for the
5 English transcript, in order to clarify matters.
6 Q. Commandant, good day again. I would like to ask you the
7 following question: While you were in Sarajevo, did you hear any protests
8 relating to the fact that one or the other of the warring factions -- did
9 you hear any protests coming from one or the other of the warring
11 A. I don't understand the question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Is that not a bit -- very unspecific, one of the
13 parties protesting?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: About what, for example?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand in general,
17 but --
18 Q. Sir, did you ever hear the Serb party involved in the conflict
19 complaining about the existence of certain illegitimate trafficking, for
20 example, of weapons in the direction of Sarajevo?
21 A. I don't remember any formal protest that was made by the Serbian
22 side in relation to this.
23 Q. I appreciate your answer, sir, but it is necessary to be very
24 precise. You say you don't remember any formal complaints. I am not
25 referring to formal complaints, but did you ever hear, and I don't mean a
1 formal complaint, any protest of a general nature that the Serbian side
2 might have made with this respect, in this respect?
3 A. With regard to what specific --
4 Q. For example, with regard to the trafficking or illegal importing
5 of arms into Sarajevo.
6 A. I heard of complaints made about people and weapons being brought
7 in, in relation to the tunnel in the airport situation.
8 Q. Can I stop you here, Witness.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, given this
10 answer, may I show the cassette or do I have to continue?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Continue, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, because it wasn't very
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 Q. Witness, did you hear whether, apart from imports that came
15 through the tunnel, were there any other imports, were any other weapons
16 transported, brought in to Sarajevo?
17 A. I didn't hear of any rumours or hear of rumours or it wasn't --
18 it was not reported to me of any such situation.
19 Q. Sir, you never heard anyone mentioning the Operation Oxygen?
20 A. No, definitely not. I never heard of that operation.
21 Q. Sir, you never heard the Containers Operation being referred to?
22 A. I don't understand what you mean by "Containers Operation."
23 Q. Sir, it is the name. It is a code. It is the name of an
24 operation which was called "Containers."
25 A. No, I never heard of it.
1 Q. Sir, have you ever heard a rumour or a complaint made by the
2 Serbian party according to which certain UNHCR vehicles were allegedly
3 used to take to the city of Sarajevo things that were not humanitarian
5 A. No, I did not. Sorry, could I -- Your Honour, I am getting no
6 picture on my screen as regard to questions at the moment.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I notice that you appreciate to, apart from
8 hearing, also to read what is written. It does appear now on your screen?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. President,
11 given that this witness has no knowledge of this transport of weapons
12 above ground but only knowledge of transport of weapons under ground, I
13 don't think it is necessary to show him the cassette. But Ms. Pilipovic
14 has a few questions to ask within the period of time that has been given
15 to her.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I hope you do not misunderstand the position of the
17 Chamber, that this would be an, under all circumstances, irrelevant video
18 of not containing aspects of the conflicts that might be important for the
19 Defence to produce. It is just the technical issues we are just dealing
20 with at this moment, and I just hope that there is no misunderstanding
21 about it.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence
23 takes into account your remark. We understand it. I don't think you have
24 misunderstood me, certainly not.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. O'Keeffe.
5 Mr. O'Keeffe, you told us and confirmed that you had given a
6 statement to investigators of the Prosecution and that you read that
7 statement and refreshed your memory with regard to the period during
8 which you were in Sarajevo; is that correct?
9 A. Correct, yes.
10 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, I will remind you of something on page 6 of your
11 statement. You spoke about the tactics used by the Bosnians and you
12 called this the mosquito tactics. Do you remember saying this?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, could you clarify this matter for us. When you
15 mentioned the mosquito tactics, what did you mean by that? What sort of
16 tactics are involved?
17 A. It means where a small force is operating against a big force,
18 that they make an attack which is really not an attack to overcome the big
19 force but it irritates the larger force. That is what I mean by
20 a "mosquito attack."
21 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, would you agree that in situations where such
22 tactics are employed, it is difficult to know what the real and final
23 objective of such tactics is?
24 A. Yes, it would be difficult, yes.
25 Q. Would you agree with me that in such a situation, the stronger
1 side, as you say, was not in a position, was not able to know, the real
2 and final objective of such tactics?
3 A. Yes, that would be correct.
4 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, in your opinion, is it the legitimate right of the
5 side that is attacked to defend itself and use all the means it has at
6 its disposal to do so?
7 A. Yes, to defend itself, yes.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. O'Keeffe. On page 6, you also said that it was
9 very difficult at night to determine whether shots were coming from
10 weapons from one kilometre or from further away; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, correct.
12 Q. Does that mean that in such cases the UN observers were not able
13 to be precise, they might have made random estimates as to where the shell
14 came from?
15 A. It would have depended again on the situation at the particular
16 time. I think I was referring to shelling that the observers were not
17 close to.
18 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, can you tell us whether the -- whether in Sarajevo
19 and its surroundings was such that it might have not been possible for the
20 observers to be precise? And I am thinking in particular of fog.
21 A. I had impressed on my observers that if they had ever any doubt,
22 that they should not report items, that they should be very definite in
23 their reporting.
24 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, on page 7 of your statement you said, and I shall
25 read this to you, it is just one line: "The Bosnians had the entire world
1 press on their side so that these reprisals were sometimes used in order
2 to create an unfavourable image of the Serbs."
3 Is that something that you stated?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, in your opinion, did the reports from UN observers
6 also contribute to portraying the Serbs in a negative light?
7 A. Yes, the reports would have contributed.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The
9 Defence has no further questions.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, is there any need to re-examine the
12 MR. MUNDIS: One question, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:
15 Q. Commandant O'Keeffe, if a captain was the senior officer, senior
16 UNMO officer, on the Lima side at Lukavica barracks, would that captain
17 occasionally be called upon to meet with the corps commander as part of
18 his duties, such as to present a protest or lodge a complaint?
19 A. Yes, it would have been part of his duties.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. MUNDIS: No further questions, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has a question for you.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you if you
1 could clarify a matter which appears in your statement. In your statement
2 you mentioned the issue, the nature of the protest that you lodged with
3 regard to -- with regard to a shelling, and I quote you:
4 [In English] "That I could not understand to be military targets."
5 [Interpretation] And you mentioned that as a response you
6 received the following response, and I quote: [In English] "He was going
7 to make this area safe for his children's children."
8 This reply, was it in response to your complaint, to your protest,
9 or was it a sentence in the course of your conversation, as far as you can
10 remember, to the best of your recollection of this meeting?
11 A. In my recollection, it was in a conversation at the end of the
12 meeting, when I asked a question like, "What do you really want in this
14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Colonel O'Keeffe, I also have a question for you.
16 You have told us about several meetings you had with General
17 Galic. The first meeting you described, which was not your first meeting
18 - that was, at least, not when you first met General Galic - was about
19 the Papa 5 having been fired at. You told us that, apart from this
20 specific issue, the normal protests about the situation were communicated.
21 You then explained to us that the normal protest was about sniping,
22 shelling, not specifically to Papa 5.
23 When you told us about later meetings with General Galic, you said
24 that you do not remember specific subjects being discussed during these
25 meetings. Would that mean that it is not in your recollection what the
1 specific reasons for your visits were or the specific subjects, or that
2 the, as you called them, the normal protest, I think you said, would not
3 have been discussed during these meetings either? Have you no
4 recollection at all or just not on specific issues other than normal
6 A. I really have no recollection of what in particular we discussed
7 at these meetings, that I couldn't refer to any one incident during these
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Normal or particular? None?
10 A. What I am saying is I would have, at these meetings, in the normal
11 course of events, I would have again objected to the sniping, the
12 indiscriminate firing, the breaking of local -- the breaking of
13 ceasefires, items like that that were continuously ongoing every day, with
14 the result that I am not able to remember, you know, any specific one to
15 be brought up at one particular time. It would have been normal for me to
16 say, "Well, why don't you stop the sniping?" "Why don't you stop the
17 shelling?" "Why won't you let the convoys through?" "Why won't you let
18 the airplanes come in?" These are the types of things I would have been
19 saying. What I cannot remember -- you know, I would have been doing this
20 so frequently that I cannot refer to any specific one at any particular
21 time, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well that you said these were the
23 kind of subjects that we discussed also during the other meetings, but
24 whether on the 5th or the 6th or the 7th, we mentioned sniping or we
25 didn't mention sniping specifically, I've got no -- but sniping and
1 shelling have been discussed at one or more of these other meetings; is
2 that how I am to understand you?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That makes it clearer for me.
5 Commandant O'Keeffe, you have answered all the questions of both
6 parties and of the Bench. I thank you very much for having come to The
7 Hague and giving your testimony in this Court.
8 Ms. Pilipovic, would you -- Ms. Pilipovic knows that --
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- that in speaking these words, that the witness
11 will usually be out of the courtroom in one or two minutes. So since she
12 stands, I will first give her the opportunity to interrupt me.
13 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe --
16 JUDGE ORIE: You would have another question?
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It is a bit unusual. Is there any reason, Ms.
19 Pilipovic, or you have just have one question, five questions?
20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will be very brief.
21 The questions have to do with the meeting, and since during the
22 examination-in-chief the Prosecution didn't ask these questions, the
23 Defence thought that it was not necessary to put these questions to the
25 Further cross-examination by Ms. Pilipovic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. O'Keeffe, could you tell us how long these
2 meetings lasted?
3 JUDGE ORIE: May I first just explain, usually if the Bench has
4 raised a certain issue, then the parties have an additional opportunity to
5 ask additional questions to these questions.
6 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
7 THE WITNESS: I couldn't recall how long these meetings took
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, you said that you had mentioned sniping incidents
11 and shelling incidents. Could you please tell us of one meeting, a
12 particular meeting, which you mentioned to General Galic at one of those
13 meetings that you had?
14 A. No, I cannot -- this is what I explained before, and that I cannot
15 specifically say at one particular meeting that I said these things. But
16 during my meetings with him, I would have invariably brought up these
17 items. I am not saying that there was one specific one that I brought it
18 up or not.
19 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, could you tell us what else you spoke about at these
20 meetings, apart from this subject?
21 A. I cannot remember any other items that we discussed at the
23 Q. One more question, Mr. O'Keeffe: When, as you said, you went to
24 the meetings, whether formal or informal, could you tell us whether you
25 had a translator, an interpreter?
1 A. I do not think so. I think that the translator was -- there was a
2 translator provided by General Galic or -- I am not sure, but I think the
3 liaison officers -- liaison officer would have translated from time to
4 time, but I think there was an interpreter there at most meetings.
5 Q. When you say, "I think at most of the meetings," do you mean to
6 say that at some of the meetings there was no interpreter?
7 A. No. What I am saying is that, as far as I recollect, a person
8 speaking English was always, naturally enough, at the meeting because I
9 could not understand any other language. So somebody had to interpret or
10 explain to me what was happening at the meeting or what I said. But I
11 cannot specifically say whether it was the liaison officer, another
12 officer or an interpreter. But there was somebody there who translated at
13 the meetings.
14 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, the translations you would receive from the
15 interpreters who were present there, were the translations always clear
16 and could you always understand them?
17 A. Yes, of course. If I had difficulty, I would have asked the
18 question again at the time.
19 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, you told us that the first time you had a meeting
20 with Mr. Galic, Mr. Cutler was present with you; is that correct, during
21 the transfer of duties? Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. Mr. O'Keeffe, I am going to show you Mr. Cutler's statement which
24 he gave to the investigators of the Prosecutor on the 13th of January,
25 1997, and 18th of March, 1998.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution will object first of
3 all in showing the statement, but as a more general proposition, we
4 would object that this has gone beyond the scope of questions put to the
5 witness from the Bench. And these would have been properly -- could have
6 been properly asked of the witness following the examination-in-chief.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained.
9 Is there any other question specifically related -- well, this is
10 already a question you indicated --
11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, no.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- four questions before that that would be your last
14 Commandant O'Keeffe, when I said to you that you answered all the
15 questions of the parties, that was not true, because there were still some
16 questions remaining. But, now you have. Perhaps not all, but all the
17 questions being put to you have been answered by now. May I thank you
18 very much for having come to The Hague, and may I wish you a safe trip
19 home again.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. O'Keeffe out
22 of the courtroom.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, we have no documents to be admitted.
25 That means that we will adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in the
2 I take it then, Mr. Mundis, that you will start with the
3 examination-in-chief of Mr. Thomas?
4 MR. MUNDIS: That is correct, Mr. President, yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until then.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
7 6.34 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
8 the 29th day of May, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.