1 Monday, 3 June 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Stanislav Galic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber would first like to give a decision on the motion
12 asking for protective measures for the Witnesses W and Y. The motion is
13 granted and a written decision will follow soon.
14 Then, as far as the schedule for today is concerned, we are
15 sitting a bit longer as usual. We will sit until 3.30 this afternoon.
16 That means that we have before the first break, one hour and a half, we
17 will then have after the break one and three-quarters of an hour and then
18 after a relatively short lunch break, we will have another session of one
19 hour and three-quarters of an hour so that we regain the time we lost last
20 Friday. In order to avoid any confusion, the lunch break will be one hour
21 and I would like to thank the interpreters very much for their flexibility
22 and their cooperation.
23 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I asked you last Friday whether the Defence was
24 ready to start the cross-examination. May I now ask you whether the
25 Defence is ready to continue the cross-examination?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. But I
2 would like to say just before, I have a point to raise and the point is
3 the following: It may happen, as far as this witness is concerned, that
4 we wanted to ask some questions in relation to some exhibits. And with
5 regard to this, I would like to know if Mr. Mundis could let me know what
6 was the answer that he may give me regarding the question of the grattage
7 or the manipulation of documents.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, as you will recall, on Thursday you
9 asked Mr. Stamp to produce a written report by today. My understanding is
10 that that report will be done by the conclusion of today. Barring that,
11 Mr. Ierace, will be taking the next witness and will be prepared to
12 address any outstanding questions with respect to that written report
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Mundis, for your information.
14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Therefore, Mr. President, very
16 simply, it is what I said before, every time when there are important
17 witnesses who knew about important facts, almost every time we fail to
18 receive answers that we asked for. I can just stress this.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you for your observation,
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Apart from this issue, would the Defence be ready to
21 continue the cross-examination of Mr. Thomas?
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Continue, certainly.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Thomas into
24 the courtroom.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to
2 gain time, perhaps we could just have the map on the ELMO on the screen,
3 it would be useful for later --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, if you would assist in putting the map
5 already on the ELMO.
6 WITNESS: FRANCIS ROY THOMAS [Resumed]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Thomas. Thank you for coming back
8 after the weekend. May I remind you that you are still bound by the
9 solemn declaration that you gave at the beginning of your testimony. We
10 interrupted your cross-examination last Friday and it will now be
12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, witness.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. I wanted us to look at the last exhibit that we looked at so we
18 that continue with the cross-examination. I believe that was Exhibit
19 number 115.
20 Witness, just for the sake of clarity, I wanted you to read from
21 this document the outgoing rounds from Sarajevo, please.
22 A. Are you referring to the outgoing fire observed from the
23 Presidency positions?
24 Q. Yes. Yes, I am.
25 A. On this document which was before my time, it appears that there
1 were 12 mortar fires -- 12 mortar rounds fired outgoing, that day.
2 Q. Thank you very much. And I would be grateful if you could read
3 the incoming rounds from the Serb side.
4 A. This document, again I remind the Court, which was before my time
5 indicates that 12 artillery rounds were observed incoming.
6 Q. Is there something else?
7 A. There is nothing else incoming.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 Witness is there a difference between these two originating sides
10 and the side that was receiving the rounds?
11 A. I am not sure I understand your question.
12 Q. Is there a difference between the number of rounds between the
13 outgoing and the incoming rounds?
14 A. Which side are you talking about? The Serb side or the Bosnian
15 side? Is there a --
16 Q. Witness, I am talking about the two sides that you just spoke of.
17 A. I reported what was outgoing fire from the Serb position and I
18 reported outgoing fire from the Presidency positions or what, as I knew
19 them, the Bosnian position, and they were exactly the same in that
20 particular day. That was the outgoing fire. You haven't asked me a
21 question about the incoming yet.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That could be contested because I read on page 4,
23 line 4, the question: "Thank you very much. I would be grateful if you
24 could read the incoming rounds from the Serb side?"
25 THE WITNESS: I apologise. My mistake. The incoming fire from
1 the -- from -- it just says incoming fire observed on the Bosnian
2 controlled areas. It doesn't specify that it actually came from the
3 Serbs. But the incoming four artillery rounds and 32 mortar rounds. My
4 apologies. I misunderstood
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Very well. Witness is there a difference between the rounds that
7 were outgoing from Sarajevo and the rounds that were incoming on the
8 outside of Sarajevo?
9 A. There is a difference, as reported --
10 Q. Thank you very much. Again, I apologise, but in order to gain
11 time we have to restrict ourselves just to the questions and the answers.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, I would like the witness
13 to be shown a second document with the assistance of Mr. Usher, that would
14 be document D116. If Mr. President will allow it. Very well.
15 Q. Witness, you have before you the document D116, do you?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 Could you please look at it under item 2B.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you please read what you can see under item 2B.
21 A. Item 2B prepared in this December 1992 report indicates that five
22 mortar rounds were observed outgoing from Presidency, what I would call
23 Bosnian positions.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 I would be grateful for the transcript that you read the entire
1 sentence, please. Witness, sir, could you read item 3B.
2 A. This indicates the following --
3 Q. Yes, yes, go on.
4 A. The following incoming fire was observed on Serb controlled areas,
5 artillery 3, mortar 103, tank, nil.
6 Q. Thank you very much.
7 Since you read 3A, I would now ask you to read 2A, please.
8 A. 2A, the following outgoing fire was observed from Presidency or
9 what I would call Bosnian positions and what it says is "artillery, nil."
10 Q. Sir, would you agree with me to say that there is a serious
11 difference between these two observation points?
12 A. No, I wouldn't agree that there was a serious difference.
13 Q. Very well. Thank you for your answer.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you ask whether there is any
15 serious difference, mathematical differences as far as I understand, which
16 does not appear in the transcript, the witness should be allowed to
17 explain if he has an explanation for that difference. Just establishing
18 that the numbers are not the same might be of importance, but if the
19 witness wants to add something, he is allowed to do something.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.
21 THE WITNESS: As I explained earlier, the observation posts
22 located on the inside of the city were created to provide observation of
23 the city and the areas shelled. They were not in a position to see the
24 Bosnian gun positions, nor were we kept informed of either the Bosnian or
25 Serb gun positions. So, we were not in a good position to see what was
1 fired from inside the city.
2 On the other hand, our locations on the Bosnian Serb side had been
3 selected primarily to monitor outgoing artillery rounds fired by the
4 Bosnian Serbs. So I would expect in normal professional practice, that we
5 would hear and see more on the Bosnian Serb side than we would hear or see
6 from within the city. Also, this is only the military observer part. It
7 does not cater for rounds reported by the other UN military forces. Also,
8 there was a serious discrepancy in the numbers of weapons, both within the
9 city and in comparison to those outside.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That goes beyond the observations of this report.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Now, with the assistance of Mr. Usher, I would like the witness to be
14 shown Exhibit 117, please.
15 Q. Mr. Witness, do you see this document before you?
16 A. I now see document 117, yes.
17 Q. Thank you very much
18 JUDGE ORIE: Would you keep on eye on what are Article 70
19 documents because we might not always know and please indicate if we will
20 have to go into closed session.
21 MR. MUNDIS: I will do so, Mr. President, and raise the same
22 concerns that I raised on Friday with respect to the scope of how much we
23 will be able to do in open session.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please keep a close eye on it and indicate
25 when you think it cannot be done any more in open session.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Now, sir, do you see item 2A?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Very well. I would like to ask you to read the first two
6 paragraphs, even the first three paragraphs of item 2A, please. Could you
7 do that? Just a moment. Just a moment, please.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I am sorry. Mr. Mundis
10 MR. MUNDIS: My learned colleague has asked the witness to read 75
11 per cent of this document and I would ask that that be done in closed
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was never
14 going to ask for 75 per cent to be read --
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...or 21. If this
16 is an Article 70 document, then if we are reading more than just a few
17 numbers, but parts of a paragraph, then we should turn into closed
18 session. Could we please turn into closed session.
19 [Closed session]
12 Page 9415 – redacted – closed session.
12 Page 9416 – redacted – closed session.
12 Page 9417 – redacted – closed session.
12 Page 9418 – redacted – closed session.
12 Page 9419 – redacted – closed session.
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are in open session again. Please proceed,
4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis. This
6 escaped my attention and I should have been able to see it.
7 Q. Now, Witness, we just heard your answer which I am going to repeat
8 for technical reasons according to which you said "that certainly there
9 were people in civilian clothes on the trenches, in the trenches, in order
10 to dig them." That is what I understood from your answer.
11 I am going to ask you another question, please, which is the
12 following: Do you know if the army of Sarajevo organised raids in the
13 streets picking people up, yes, in order to round people up and forcibly
14 take them to the location of the trenches?
15 A. First of all, I must correct your understanding. There were
16 people in civilian clothes digging in the trenches, but now to answer your
17 second question, no, I am not aware of --
18 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.
19 Witness, with the assistance of the usher I would like to draw you
20 to Exhibit 118.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Witness, have you got this two-page document in front of you?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 Witness, the same exercise as before. I will do it for you, to
2 make it quicker. Could you confirm that under item 2 "that is the
3 outgoing fire position observed from Papa positions. We have nothing in
4 terms of tanks, mortars, multiple rocket launchers or AAAs." Is that
6 A. Yes, I would agree with that.
7 Q. Thank you, Witness.
8 As regards item 3 which has to do with incoming fire, is it true
9 that we can see that there were 18 mortar shots on the Lima side, the
10 Bosnian Serbian side?
11 A. That is what this report before my time indicates.
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 Now we shall move on to another document with the assistance of
14 the usher.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to have D119
16 given to the witness and with the assistance of Madam Registrar, I would
17 like to have P1753 taken out again.
18 Q. Have you the two documents in front of you, Witness?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 Witness, is number 119, is it dated October 18th 1993?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 Witness, is Exhibit 1753 --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. -- does it also relate to the period of 18th of October, the date
2 1993, 18th October 1993?
3 A. It covers the time from 1800 hours, 17 October, the night or
4 through the night of 17 October to 1800 hours on 18 October. So the time
5 frames by this are not the -- exactly the same.
6 Q. The time frames are not exactly the same but the dates seem to
7 correspond to each other.
8 Witness, would you kindly read what we find in brackets in 1753,
9 that is to say, the end of the first paragraph.
10 A. "My military observers reported that 67 mixed artillery rounds
11 and are tank rounds and mortar rounds fell on the Bosnian side today, that
12 is within the reporting period of --"
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 Now, kindly read what you have in the last sentence of paragraph A
15 of Exhibit 119. Of the first paragraph.
16 A. I take it you are assuming to military activity and you are
17 talking about "UNPROFOR recorded 40 mortar and artillery shells in the Zuc
18 area and the source is a newspaper."
19 Q. Quite. Now, please read the line below just below.
20 A. "It says on the --
21 Q. Below. Above, sorry.
22 A. Can you give me the first word?
23 Q. No. It is the second line of the first paragraph. And it begins
24 by "19," I think.
25 A. "19 shells reportedly hit the city over night and BH forces
1 returned a smaller number of rounds."
2 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Would there be any contradictions
3 between the two exhibits?
4 A. Again, I can't answer that with a "yes" or "no." It requires an
6 Q. Can you explain briefly, please do?
7 A. The military observer reports cover from 1800 hours on 17 October
8 to 1800 hours on 18 October. This report which appears to have been
9 prepared or submitted by a newspaper, it -- I have no idea what time they
10 are talking about on 18 October. They may have been talking from the
11 first time they got up in the morning until when the sun went down or
12 maybe they are talking about from 000 hours on the 18th to 000 hours --
13 2400 hours --
14 Q. All right. I am stopping you now.
15 Do you know what document 119 corresponds to?
16 A. I have no idea.
17 Q. You have never seen this kind of document before?
18 A. I have seen many documents similar to this before and I see at the
19 top -- I can't understand from the heading which particular documents it
20 is from.
21 Q. So you cannot tell us, Witness, to the best of your knowledge,
22 whether this document was prepared on the basis of what you call "a
23 sitrep, a shootrep, increp"?
24 A. Military -- my military observer reports may very well have
25 contributed to this. On the other hand, they may not. I have no idea.
1 Q. Thank you, Witness.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, with the assistance of
3 the usher, Mr. President, I would like the witness to be provided with
4 Exhibit 120 which is now here.
5 With the assistance of this madam secretary, I would like to have
6 the witness be given Exhibit 1824 -- 1884, sorry.
7 Q. Do you have both documents before you?
8 A. Yes I do.
9 Q. With the same observations of a few minutes ago, we are dealing
10 with November 29, 1993, in both cases.
11 A. They are not exactly the same time frame.
12 Q. Okay. All right.
13 Now, by looking at these documents, let us focus on -- I will find
14 it immediately. Paragraph 3 of item A, military activity, could you
15 please read it out.
16 A. 3 from which report?
17 Q. I just said A, military activity of document 120.
18 A. Starting with description of damage?
19 Q. Yes?
20 A. "Sarajevo lost a good proportion of its electricity due to
21 shelling damage to the electricity generating station in Jablanica, 40
22 miles to the west of the city, source United Press International."
23 Q. Now, that we have the sources. Are they -- have they been
24 confirmed by the observers, first question? Were they confirmed by the
25 observers, first question?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Are you asking us to confirm about an electrical generating
2 station that is 40 miles?
3 Q. No. I am asking you about that in this document, and please bear
4 in mind that it is an official document that was established on the basis
5 of observations made in Sarajevo. When we see United Press International
6 as a source, now, the military observers on the ground, would they go and
7 verify those sources or not?
8 A. We didn't act on the reports of the United Press International.
9 We acted on our own orders and damages that we observed or shelling that
10 we observed.
11 Q. All right. Now, if I see a reference like United Press
12 International in an official document, can I then say that the observers
13 did not verify it?
14 A. There is no way of knowing.
15 Q. Very well.
16 Now please look at document 1884.
17 A. I have it.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, 1884 was tendered under seal so.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have to go back --
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...closed session.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 [Closed session]
12 Page 9427 – redacted – closed session.
12 Page 9428 – redacted – closed session.
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are in open session again.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Now
5 we shall move on to another series of questions and if you allow me to
6 have document D121 delivered.
7 Q. Sir, you should have before you a document of four pages; is that
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 Do you recognise this type of document, sir?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 Sir, is it true to say that this is a list of the wounded and the
15 missing for the months that I mentioned?
16 A. No, it isn't.
17 Q. Sir, what is this?
18 A. This is a list of the sniper casualties. And as you can see from
19 the document, it also includes some UN casualties such as date March 06,
20 one French soldier.
21 Q. Very well, thank you. I forgot to mention that these were wounded
22 or disappeared because of sniping, but we agree on that, that we are
23 speaking about the same thing.
24 Now, I would like --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would simply object to the
2 categorization as "disappeared". I think from the --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, whether you meant to say
4 that they faded away from this life or that you intended to say that they
5 were not found again.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that is not
7 missing in action. These are people who died. This is the usual form. I
8 didn't pick up the interpretation because I thought it was a minor point.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you are talking about those who
10 disappeared, you mean those who died.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Absolutely.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed to answer the questions.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So the objection is opposed.
14 Q. Now, sir --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the objection is
16 denied or whether I understood it as a clarification is up for the Chamber
17 to decide.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. Thank you.
19 Q. Now, sir, on the items 010205 to 07, you could see the end of the
20 first column regarding the losses, you have asterisks that I mentioned.
21 When we are referring to the legend which is a footnote at the bottom of
22 the page, we can see that other data is not accessible, is not available.
23 But in this column, sir, we only have two things. We have the wounded
24 that are mentioned by a "WS" wounded and those who died, who were killed,
25 that is indicated by letter "K" for killed.
1 Now, why is it not possible to find out if a person was wounded or
2 if it was dead? Because there are no other -- not many other
3 possibilities. Someone was either wounded or killed, but there is no
4 third possibility that is available. Could you perhaps clarify this for
6 A. Certainly. This report would have been prepared by somebody at
7 the site of the sniper incident. Of course, if they are taken off as
8 wounded, they may later die. So what -- to determine the exact casualties
9 for the day, it would be necessary to look at our summary, because we
10 checked the morgue at night. This is only a summary of the sniping
11 incident. Also, you will see that most of those further details unable to
12 occur at the beginning when we just started this procedure. After the
13 teams became more used to what was required -- and you will find that they
14 generally found out what happened to the casualties later. So initially
15 they weren't aware that we should be tracking what happened to the
16 casualty, whether he was -- stayed wounded or whether he, in fact, died in
17 the hospital. But as we got more proficient in preparing this data, then
18 you will see there is only a few cases in the following months where we
19 have further details unavailable.
20 Q. Very well. Thank you for the explanation.
21 We can see, for instance, under item 11, there is a term,
22 "unknown" regarding the location of the incident. What could you tell us
23 on this subject, sir?
24 A. This would be a body that we found, that we were investigating,
25 where we didn't find the body at the site of where the killing took place
1 or the wounding took place. This would be somebody that was obviously
2 wounded by small-arms fire, presumably by a sniper, and the exact location
3 at the time was not known. And again --
4 Q. Very well. Thank you, sir.
5 Now, Witness, I would like to ask you a series of questions
6 regarding the locating of these incidents. We have the figures here which
7 were done in tables. Are you familiar with these figures?
8 A. These -- are you talking about the grid references? Yes.
9 Q. Are you familiar with this?
10 A. With this --
11 Q. With the figures themselves.
12 A. Yes. They are map references.
13 Q. Very well.
14 Could you tell us for item 01, to which area does the first figure
15 correspond 9388 -- 881643?
16 A. That would require looking it up on a map, and this map you
17 provided me doesn't have the same grid that these figures would be in.
18 However, this would be -- would allow us to relate to the operational map
19 that we had in the headquarters which we would then use to brief people on
20 where the sniper activity occurred.
21 Q. Sir, I simply asked you a question, to see if you were familiar
22 with these figures, if you are able to locate them in space without your
23 premarked map. But could you tell us to which areas do these figures
24 correspond to or not?
25 A. The map you have given me is in fact a city map and doesn't even
1 have grid lines at the top. It has letters.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Thomas --
3 THE WITNESS: I can't answer without my own map.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- the question was whether you could relate these
5 numbers to specific places without using a map.
6 THE WITNESS: No, I can't.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Witness, on this document we can see on several occasions
10 abbreviation, "BSA." Could you confirm what that is?
11 A. BSA was the short term for Bosnian Serb army. So, in fact, on the
12 1st of March the casualty that day was a Bosnian Serb army soldier.
13 Q. That is, either shot at, wounded or killed by a sniper from the
14 so-called BH army?
15 A. We assume that he was shot by a sniper from the BH army. We have
16 the same rumours about the Bosnian Serb army as we have about the Bosnian
17 army, that sometimes they shot their own people.
18 Q. I did not ask the question in relation to sniper. So there were
19 rumours, according to you, according to which there were Muslim snipers
20 that were sniping their own people?
21 A. There were rumours that people were killed by people on their own
22 side for other reasons.
23 Q. Would those be political reasons, sir?
24 A. In some cases it was suspected, and other cases, criminal
1 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.
2 When you spoke of political reasons, would it be perhaps to stir
3 the media or was it perhaps to increase the figures for political reasons?
4 A. Certainly that would be a political reason to do this.
5 Q. That is, at the same time there would be more victims, increasing
6 the numbers of victims, and also attracting the compassion of the media;
7 is that how I am to understand your answer?
8 A. That would be true, although you will see on the 9th of March most
9 casualties were BSA.
10 Q. Yes, I can see it indeed.
11 Witness, to come back to the document, there is one thing that I
12 am surprised by and this is the abbreviation "FRE." Do you know what it
13 corresponds to?
14 A. That corresponds to French.
15 Q. So this is a French soldier?
16 A. Yes. As I said before when you asked me about this document, this
17 is a summary of sniping. We tried to identify the casualties, whether
18 from either side or from the UN forces.
19 Q. Thank you, Witness.
20 Sir, I would like to go back to the question of sniping, but just
21 before that, I have a question for the Chamber.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, looking at
23 the -- considering the time table, are we going to stop at quarter past or
24 half past?
25 JUDGE ORIE: We started at 9.00, so we will have our first break
1 at half past 10.00.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
3 Q. Witness, to go back to the sniping, and you spoke of these
4 political considerations, do you know, as far as you know, these sniping
5 activities were they increasing either when the media was particularly
6 present or when political, specific political events were going on in
7 Sarajevo, for instance, arrival of important political figures?
8 A. I know of at least one instance where there was a sniping incident
9 which occurred for which there was no reason except that CNN was passing
10 by within a certain time while the casualty would still be there. And
11 this occurred in June. But I can't be sure --
12 Q. Sir, thank you, Witness, for the relative precision of your
14 Could you tell us if not when, then where did this happen?
15 A. This happened at the junction of the road from the airport and the
16 road that leads into Dobrinja.
17 Q. Very well.
18 Sir, is it true, and I believe that you indicated it, that the
19 balance, so to speak, the balance of victims was not always, let's use the
20 word "correct," when we are talking about the facts when the Bosnian Serb
21 army was a lot more unwilling to communicate its number of wounded and
22 killed soldiers?
23 A. I am assuming that you are referring to the fact that we didn't --
24 the UN did not know all the Bosnian Serb casualties. Yes, that is
1 Q. Thank you, Witness.
2 Sir, as an officer of the armoured force you would know that there
3 would be a factory needed to manufacture weapons in Sarajevo. Now, I am
4 going to go back for the -- I am going to go back for the English
6 Do you know about the existence of a factory -- factories, thank
7 you, factories that were able to manufacture weapons or equipment that
8 would be useful or used by snipers? Do you know of such facilities in the
10 A. No, nor do I think they were needed. There was storage of enough
11 munitions before the war to provide most of the ammunition and special
12 equipment needed.
13 Q. Witness when you say that you don't know it, do you exclude the
14 possible presence of factories in the city?
15 A. We would -- we didn't suspect a factory in the city because it
16 didn't make military sense.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The question was, Mr. Thomas, whether you could
18 exclude the presence of such factories?
19 THE WITNESS: No. Anything was possible.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
23 Sir, does the name of a factory, called Zrak, does it mean
24 anything to you?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you know, Witness, that optical instruments that were used for
2 sniping rifles were manufactured by the Zrak factory?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Thank you, Witness.
5 Sir, you spoke earlier of ammunition depos. What do you know
6 about these ammunition depos? Where were they, what were their names, et
8 A. I don't know about the exact location of ammunition depos. I do
9 know that in my preparatory briefing in Canada, we were advised that there
10 was enough ammunition in the stocks of the Yugoslav home Defence forces
11 for this war to be carried on for 40 years.
12 Q. Witness, when you use the expression in English "the Yugoslav home
13 defence forces," are you referring to what was known as the Territorial
15 A. It -- yes. It is the concept that there was a manoeuvre army
16 which would manoeuvre around the Yugoslavs who defended their own home
17 locality after they had served their conscript time. To make this
18 possible on the Swiss model which I am sure you are familiar with, there
19 was a great series of depos, ammunition storage at the very local level
20 because the concept rests on the idea that locally trained people can
21 respond to an emergency and defend their own locality without depending on
22 support from outside. This in turn meant that large quantities of small
23 arms ammunition and artillery ammunition for the calibres that we are
24 talking about, 120 millimetre, and even guns and field pieces, would be
25 able in especially an urban area like Sarajevo, which would be a key part
1 of such a concept, because motorised forces would bypass Sarajevo if it
2 was strongly defended.
3 Q. Thank you for your answer, sir. And I would like to say that you
4 are extremely well-informed in any case about the Swiss system, as well as
5 the Yugoslav system.
6 When you spoke of the concept of defence, and that is the first
7 part of your answer, is it true that this concept of defence would
8 implicate the obligation for any man of military age to bear arms to
9 defend his territory, whatever the definition of the territory is, with
10 the weapons, if he has any?
11 A. I am not aware of the exact provisions. It was my understanding
12 that those that completed military training, that is, done their service
13 with the JNA, would then be required to be part of some form of home
14 defence unit.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 Now, regarding the weapon depos, we have certain testimony that
17 indicated that these weapons were partly preserved with large public
18 companies of ex-Yugoslavia. Could you confirm this information?
19 A. I am not sure I understand the question. You say --
20 Q. I will repeat it, gladly.
21 According to some testimonies it seems that the weapons that we
22 spoke of were practically preserved by public companies, enterprises, of
23 the former Yugoslavia. Could you confirm this fact?
24 A. Am I to understand that you are saying that some public companies
25 assisted in the storage and preservation of these weapons.
1 Q. That is what we learned from a testimony, yes, that is correct?
2 A. By the time of my tour there, the public companies really weren't
3 operating in Sarajevo.
4 Q. I know that but you spoke of your briefing in Canada before that.
5 And were you spoken about this during the briefing, were you told about
7 A. We were told that there were storage sites everywhere in the
8 former Yugoslavia and it was a question of each locality had its own
9 storage sites. At that time I didn't pay particular attention to Sarajevo
10 because I didn't know I was going to go there.
11 Q. You said that each locality, does that mean that every
12 municipality in fact would have that?
13 A. To my understanding, yes.
14 Q. Sir, is it true that there were several municipalities in
16 A. Yes, that would be the case. And this munitions would be stored
17 very carefully because they must be preserved against surprise attack.
18 Q. Therefore, sir, is it true to say that the troops known as
19 government forces or Muslim forces had at their disposal during the time
20 frame we are talking about, important quantities of weapons and
22 A. No it isn't clear because we do not know how much ammunition and
23 stores were taken by the JNA when they evacuated Sarajevo.
24 Q. Sir, talking about ammunition, do you know of an existence of a
25 tunnel which was linking the interior of the city and the outside of the
1 city, the famous Dobrinja Butmir tunnel?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Thank you, sir.
4 Witness, do you know if this tunnel was used for the needs of
5 bringing in supplies for the military?
6 A. At the time, no.
7 Q. Do you know that today?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Sir, do you know if there were any other systems in place that
10 were used to smuggle in to bring in on the sly, weapons into Sarajevo?
11 A. No other specific areas. We suspected smuggling occurred wherever
12 they were running people on the Bosnian Serb side to permit this to take
14 Q. Sir, are you, and that is probably the last question before the
15 break or did you know about the operation that was known at the time as
16 "operation oxygen"?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Sir, did you hear or did you know about an operation which
19 consisted of delivering to one of the sides in the conflict explosives or
20 gunpowder in oxygen bottles which were supposedly for medical use?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe the
24 time has come for the break.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until 11.00. May I remind you,
1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have approximately 50 minutes left. You have
2 approximately 50 minutes left.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.
4 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 With the assistance of the usher, I would like to give the witness
8 document 123, 123.
9 Q. Witness, before you receive the document, on the basis of the map
10 you have in front of you, could you tell us if you recognise the --
11 THE REGISTRAR: The next number Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is 122.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is very generous. On the
13 part of the Defence, 122 has disappeared. It will come at a later stage.
14 Q. Witness, on the map that you have to your right, can you find and
15 indicate where this Sharpstone zone is located? Witness?
16 A. Yes, I think I can give a general idea.
17 Q. Could you kindly, with the assistance of the usher, to put the map
18 on the screen so that we can see it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...Mr. Thomas, if
20 you put it on the machine on the right-hand side of you, we can follow
21 whatever you...
22 THE WITNESS: We are seeing -- it is very hard to see, because the
23 highest feature is here, but you have got dominating --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. For the transcript, the witness
1 pointed to the 7 woods area or 7 forests area, which we can see in square
2 "L." It is on the upper part of the map. Thank you, Witness.
3 Could you kindly circle the zone. Could you draw a circle around
5 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do that with a black --
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Please, thank you.
8 Q. Please, thank you.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Thank you very much.
11 Do you know whether in that zone there were trenches limiting the
12 two warring factions? Was it there in that zone?
13 A. There were trenches that I observed that on the Bosnian Serb area
14 side of the line. I don't recall seeing the Bosnian positions in that
16 Q. Witness, can you then try to find the trenches in that zone?
17 A. This map is too generalized. I need a topographical map. I can't
18 show you on this map.
19 Q. Witness, kindly take document 123 which you have before you.
20 Please tell us if you recognise that kind of document? I expect you do.
21 A. Yes, I recognise this type of document, however --
22 Q. Thank you. Still what we are interested in is page 2, please.
23 And I would kindly ask you to read item 6A, first sentence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I object to this document on two
1 grounds. The first ground being that it is outside the indictment period
2 and I would also ask in light of the fact that this is a Rule 70 document,
3 that depending on the number of questions that Mr. Piletta-Zanin has, that
4 we go into closed session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but before doing so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when the
6 witness said that this was not within his period of time, the period of
7 time he spent in Sarajevo, you responded by saying "I am mainly interested
8 in page 2" which covers the same time period, as far as I can see. Was it
9 anything specific because we can't expect the witness to tell us anything
10 about the period, but if it is just about logics or the type of document,
11 that might be different. But then we will have to turn into closed
12 session first.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] To gain time, Mr. President, I
14 will renounce to this document and I will then hand out document 124.
15 JUDGE ORIE: 123 is withdrawn and will not be tendered. Yes.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that later 122 will come up. Yes.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It will arrive.
19 Q. Witness --
20 JUDGE ORIE: So the document just withdrawn will now be replaced
21 then by the new one prenumbered 124, which will now be 123.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I thought that the documents
23 remained numbered as they were. But then we will change all the numbers.
24 All right. Thank you very much.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Witness, you have in front of you a document which comes from the
3 conference on the former Yugoslavia. We are dealing with item 2,
4 Sarajevo, and it focuses on Grbavica and Zuc.
5 Can you confirm that these two localities were frequently fighting
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. Thank you, Witness.
9 Witness, could you please turn to page 2 of the document, item 10,
10 no fly zone. Have you that page in front of you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you confirm, if you know, what was the number of UN flights,
13 approximately, which landed and departed from Sarajevo daily?
14 A. I have no idea. UNHCR representative would be a better source of
15 this information.
16 Q. Thank you for your answer.
17 Witness, now I would like to move to document 124, with the
18 assistance of the usher. It is a document addressed to Lord Owen and
19 Mr. Stoltenberg.
20 Witness, as regards to item 2, Sarajevo, could you confirm, "yes"
21 or "no," whether Rajlovac, Zuc and Hum were also places where combat
22 fighting were very intense?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Witness, could you confirm that Rajlovac is in the town of
25 Sarajevo proper?
1 A. I considered it a suburb myself, but it is in the area of
2 Sarajevo, yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 Witness, when fighting would take place in Rajlovac, were there in
5 the technical considerations on the basis of which the front and the back
6 zone were determined, could you perhaps tell us how far behind, how deep,
7 was the back zone? Was it in the direction of Rajlovac, a few hundreds of
8 metres, a kilometre, as you indicated, or perhaps more?
9 A. I think it is easiest if I describe this on the map.
10 Q. Well, begin by describing it on the map.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Usher, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Thomas, we noticed that you made some markings on
13 documents where you were not requested to mark them. Would you please not
14 do that because then we might have some difficulties.
15 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, I was just marking to make
16 sure I had captured the area that --
17 JUDGE ORIE: The documents shown to you, unless specifically asked
18 for, should be leaving your desk in the same condition as when they
19 arrived at your desk.
20 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.
21 Basically the front line in the Rajlovac area we considered this
22 road almost as no-man's land with the Bosnian Serb positions on this side
23 and the Bosnian forces on this side. And there was a gap of no-man's land
24 because the Bosnian positions were on the higher ground. So there was an
25 area here where these forces at this end of the Bosnian position in
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 confronting Rajlovac, would have in fact have to been resupplied probably
2 from the Zuc area. And closer to the city proper where there was trenches
3 lines here which then started to move out towards the Stup area, you would
4 find that they could in fact have some supplies and replacements in this
5 area here. In this area here, there is a stretch area here where these
6 houses are shown, was basically a no-man's land where these buildings were
7 all destroyed.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you. So we understand that there was a no-man's land. Was
10 there a safety security zone behind that zone?
11 A. On the Serb side, in fact, they had depth to this position. So
12 their lines would go along here and I can't remember exactly where they
13 cut into the Stup, but they had some depth. The Bosnians are -- were in
14 what we call a forward position on a slope here. So as they came off
15 these spurs on the mountain they were on the forward slope. So I suspect,
16 and we didn't see it, that they had to resupply at night.
17 In this area here of course, the built-up area allowed some cover
18 for movement during the day. And this was heavy. This railway line here
19 had trenches up to the railway line. The railway line posed a problem for
20 both sides because of its embankment and there assaulting troops would
21 have to go up, expose themselves, and then come down to attack. So the
22 approach was to tunnel through it.
23 Q. Very well. Thank you.
24 Witness, you have just said that the Bosnia troops were on higher
25 ground from the two heights that you have just shown us on the map. Could
1 they dominate the town; "yes" or "no"?
2 A. Could they dominate the Rajlovac sector, yes; could they dominate
3 Sarajevo, no, way.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 Witness, now we will move to something else, that is Exhibit 22 --
6 JUDGE ORIE: For the sake of the transcript, the witness has
7 pointed at various places, but they are all within the area covered by B-1
8 up to D-4.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Since we are dealing with the
10 map now, with the assistance of the usher, could you move the map to the
11 left so we could see the sector of the Old Town.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you assist Mr. Thomas in moving the
13 map so that we can see the Old City.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. There, we have found it.
16 Witness, given your very accurate knowledge of the area, could you
17 carefully listen to my question and try to answer very precisely because
18 this has to be put on the transcript and that is why I am asking you to
19 act in that way.
20 To the west -- to the south of what we can see here and now, the
21 lower part, were there trenches or fortifications in the lower part of the
22 picture we can see now? And for the transcript, I would like to say that
23 this square 4, number 4, G, M, L and so forth -- K, M, L up to square 4,
24 did you understand my question, Witness?
25 A. I am not sure that I understand exactly the question or where you
1 want me to put --
2 Q. In that zone that you are looking at now were there front lines?
3 A. Yes, there were.
4 Q. Could you show them to us using the pointer?
5 A. No, I couldn't. This map doesn't have the kind of detail I need.
6 It is too large a scale for something as precise as trenches.
7 Q. Could you do it in a general way?
8 A. No, because it is misleading.
9 Q. Very well.
10 Witness these front lines, are they located in the area of the
11 square that we can see now? I think it is number 4 on the map.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please refer precisely
13 to the square because --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall go back to it. I
15 asked for our city plan just to make things clear.
16 Q. Witness, were there in that zone which corresponds to the line of
17 the square 4 to the south, south of the Vitesak [phoen] River, were there
18 any lines or a front line --
19 JUDGE ORIE: He is pointing at K-4. Is that to the square you
20 referred to or do you want to refer to J, K, L and/or M?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] J, K, L, M from line 4
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Thomas, from J-4 up to M-4.
23 THE WITNESS: That is asking me to place the line incorrectly
24 because the only positions that I saw for sure, were the Serb positions
25 along the Pale road in the area that I am tracing now which are actually
1 in the 5 square. They were there facing Bosnian positions. So in fact,
2 in some areas, the lines were actually in the 5 squares.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Very well.
5 Now, let us summarise for the transcript. The lines indicated by
6 the witness are in zone 5 of the square between lines K and L, north of
7 the Lukavica road. Is that correct, Witness?
8 A. I think this map is too imprecise to show exactly where the
9 lines --
10 Q. We know that. But on the basis of what you have shown, I think
11 this is what -- that it is correct.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Thomas, if you would point as precisely as
13 possible to the trenches as you could have observed them, then we will be
14 able to translate it into transcript language.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, let him first point.
17 THE WITNESS: Somewhere along this line here and I can't be
18 absolutely precise without my own map. Their Serb positions were just to
19 the north of the Pale road. And when I stopped at some of the Serb
20 positions, I could see through the trees, I could definitely pick out the
21 Bosnian trench line as well. Serbs in this case were on the higher ground
22 defending the Pale road and the Bosnians would have to attack uphill. And
23 they had reached this point in October almost to the Pale road. They were
24 trying to cut it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The witness was pointing at the east-west road that
1 goes through K-5. And L-5 starting approximately where in small letters
2 it says "Sumarska" going down to the south-east up to where L-5 goes into
3 M-5 and he indicated just north of this road.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 Q. Now, in relation to that zone could you tell us what the depth of
7 the back zone, rear zone?
8 A. No, I couldn't. However, my assessment would be that it would be
9 under cover and there was wooded cover partway up the hill as you can see
10 from this map.
11 Q. Thank you, Witness.
12 What do you know about the 10th Hill Brigade? Was it located
14 A. I can't be sure of its exact location. It was disbanded within a
15 month after my arrival and presumably this was done because of its poor
16 combat efficiency. So in fact, I can't be sure of who actually was doing
17 the fighting.
18 Q. Do you know whether a certain Caco was in charge of that brigade?
19 A. This person was reported to be in charge. I never met him. He
20 was removed before they took me to that headquarters.
21 Q. Do you know whether that person was a criminal who was searched
22 for by his own people?
23 A. Yes, I understand the Bosnian government dealt with him as a
24 criminal. The Bosnian government themselves.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. President, I would
1 like to have Exhibit 122 submitted, just to be in line with the
2 chronology, with the assistance of the usher.
3 Q. Witness, could you see the top right of the document where there
4 were buildings and whose roofs are somewhat destroyed?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is this a comprehensive document?
6 MR. MUNDIS: I don't believe so, Mr. President, based on the lack
7 of an "R" number on the document.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I was waiting for my
11 Q. Witness, do you see in the top right corner -- Witness, can you
12 hear me?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you see in the top right corner of this document, buildings
15 that are destroyed?
16 A. The buildings that I can identify destroyed are more in the
17 centre. They are missing their roofs. The one at the top right-hand
18 corner I can hardly seen it in the photograph that I have been asked to
19 examine. I can clearly see the ones in the centre, the roof has been
20 partially destroyed.
21 Q. Now, can't you see that the other buildings are also destroyed or
22 seem also destroyed?
23 A. The ones in the centre, yes, I can confirm that they seem
24 destroyed, at least two of them do.
25 Q. Very well.
1 The buildings that you see to your right, do they seem to you to
2 be civilian buildings and I am talking about the buildings you can see in
3 the top right corner?
4 A. Yes, they appear to be civilian buildings.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Thank you, Witness.
8 These buildings that they can be described as civilian, would it
9 be reported as having been shelled as civilian buildings, if these are
10 civilian buildings?
11 A. Only if we observe the fall of shot on those particular buildings
12 and obviously they must have been hit, because they are in fact -- the
13 buildings have been partially destroyed. But to determine whether we
14 would have reported that or not it would have to be in context. I don't
15 know where the trenches are in relation to these buildings.
16 Q. Very well.
17 Now, in relation to the civilian buildings, can you see straight
18 in the centre of the photograph, a little to the left of the PR target,
19 air target, can you see a dark mark, a black mark? It is a dark mark
20 which would correspond to a trench.
21 A. Yes. Maybe. I can't determine it from the photograph I have --
22 Q. Thank you very much. If I tell you that, could you make out what
23 is written at the bottom of the document?
24 A. It says "a plan, incline, enters to a tunnel" and then it says --
25 Q. Could you understand that?
1 A. Yes. But I still don't know where this is from.
2 Q. Sorry?
3 A. Is this a document from Sarajevo or from where is it in relation
4 to anything else?
5 Q. You have never seen such a document?
6 A. Not like this, no.
7 Q. Very well.
8 A. It is just I may have seen documents, area photographs of Sarajevo
9 but this one can can't be sure what context it is.
10 Q. Very well.
11 Witness, for the transcript, this is simply entrance to the Butmir
12 tunnel with the civilian buildings around, that were unfortunately hit?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis
14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution objects to the extent
15 that Mr. Piletta-Zanin seems to be testifying. The witness has said he
16 has no idea where this is. We would object to this.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is sustained. The witness has
18 not testified on it and everyone who can read sees that the words
19 "entrance to the tunnel" is on the photograph. Whether it is a picture
20 of the entrance of the tunnel, we do not know. We just know that it is
21 written on it. So it is not just a matter of the transcript, but if you
22 say for the transcript, I am referring to a photograph which bears as text
23 on it "the entrance of the tunnel." But you are asking the witness a lot
24 of questions about a map he says he doesn't know. That is not what we
25 usually do.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Mr. President, but
2 the aim of the questions with the view of this photograph is to see to
3 which extent it is difficult to determine whether that is a civilian
4 building or not. And the answer that the witness gave that I was
5 interested in was that these were civilian buildings. They are
6 undoubtedly civilian.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just then look very precisely to his testimony,
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. The question was whether these buildings can be
9 described as civilian, would it be reported as having been shelled as
10 civilian buildings? So it is rather hypothetical. I do not see that the
11 witness testified that these were civilian buildings. It just said that
12 as far as he could see from the photograph, that they appear to be
13 civilian buildings. It looks as if that is the same to you.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the same thing.
15 Because, Mr. President, when the observers say that civilian areas were
16 hit, we say "it appears that" and that is exactly the same thing. This is
17 what I wanted to demonstrate.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So it has got nothing to do with the tunnel or does
19 it have to do anything with the tunnel?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, it does. This has to do
21 with the tunnel.
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...that this is a
23 picture which indicates where a tunnel is and the witness has testified
24 that he does not know unless there is --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...that this would
2 be a picture on which a tunnel is visible or indicated that there was a
4 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, clearly the text on Defence Exhibit
5 122 indicates that, but again, Prosecution view is there is no proper
6 foundation in light of the fact that the witness has said he doesn't know
7 what this photograph is of.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether it is true or not, the witness doesn't
10 MR. MUNDIS: Exactly, Mr. President. I don't know if there was an
11 ERN number under the Defence Exhibit sticker. Other than that, I am at a
12 loss as to where this document came from.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you have any additional questions, please
15 keep in mind what we -- what the Chamber just --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't have any questions
17 regarding this document, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I would
20 like to have the witness shown with the assistance of Mr. Usher a written
21 statement taken on the 16th, 17th and 18th of November, 1999, I believe,
22 and I would like to ask the witness if he recognises his signature and the
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1 Now, sir, I would be grateful if you could tell me on page 644 --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- 5th paragraph, 4th paragraph, could you please read what comes
4 under paragraph 4, please?
5 A. The one that starts with "Galic"? "Galic, Sarajevo Romanija
6 Corps, BSA Commander met him once before February 1994 --"
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slow down a bit, Mr. Thomas.
8 THE WITNESS: Sorry. And then later --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Yes, please continue, Witness, the transcript will follow.
11 THE WITNESS: "And then later in the context of the negotiations
12 for the total exclusion zone. Also, during the same time, I accompanied
13 General Soubirou and Galic to Grbavica.
14 Q. Very well, we can stop here. Thank you very much.
15 Now, Witness, thank you for reading this. And the question is the
16 following: General Galic was therefore active, whatever the importance of
17 the activity, but he was active as to implementing the ceasefire from the
18 beginning of 1994; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, I would say so.
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 Sir, I would be grateful if you could go on to the following page,
22 please. And to read for us the second paragraph that is roughly in the
23 middle starting with the sentence, "I also saw a collection" and so on?
24 Did you find it?
25 A. Is this page 645?
1 Q. That's correct. Second paragraph in the middle, exactly line 6.
2 A. Yes, I will read it. " Also saw a collection of very well equipped
3 Bosnian troops, French equipment prior to an attack in Grbavica. In the
4 case of Grbavica, it appeared to be a very-well coordinated attack making
5 good use of the Bosnian asset infantry to combat the Serb asset artillery
6 and tanks. In a location --" I seem have given some problem there. "In a
7 location which suited the Bosnian asset best."
8 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
9 Now sir, page 647, please. First paragraph. And we would start
10 by line 6 which starts with "I did succeed in entering one location."
11 A. "I did succeed in entering one location," referring to my visit
12 to sniper locations, "which --"
13 Q. You don't have to add anything. Just read, please.
14 A. "Which was in a school in Dobrinja from which the BH covered the
15 road to BSA Corps headquarters at Lukavica. It was directly opposite a
16 church from which the Serbs had snipers firing into Dobrinja. When I
17 entered the Bosnian location, I found police officers who appeared very
18 professional and had good equipment. It is possible that they were
19 trained as part of an anti-terrorist squad for the 1984 Olympics."
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 You indicated earlier, but that was my question which was to
22 come. Witness, when you visited this school it was in relation to a kind
23 of tour that you did with relation to the snipers; is that correct?
24 A. I can't -- I don't like the word "tour." It was in response to
25 reported violations from the Serb side we attempted to visit the source of
1 sniping on the Bosnian side. It was an investigation.
2 Q. Very well.
3 Do you remember the name of the school?
4 A. No, I can't remember the name of the school.
5 Q. Thank you very much.
6 Were there other schools?
7 A. I can't even recall the exact -- the exact situation of the
8 building. I was more interested in what was inside.
9 Q. Thank you, sir.
10 Now, sir, do you know the name of Kazani? Does this mean anything
11 to you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Sir, do you know about the existence of Tarcin? Does this mean
14 anything to you?
15 A. No. Tarcin or --
16 Q. Tarcin, that is T-a-r-c-i-n.
17 A. You have to clarify whether that is a person or a location.
18 Q. It is a location.
19 A. I wasn't clear on your pronunciation, but you are talking about a
20 town that is outside the Sector Sarajevo boundaries, but wasn't -- but
21 which was involved, yes.
22 Q. Yes, that is it. I am sorry about my pronunciation, sir. I will
23 try and do better in the future. But do you know whether there was a
24 detention camp there?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. How many people and who was -- whose camp was it?
2 A. I only know the details on periphery because I provided a team of
3 military observers to assist in the investigation. So I can provide the
4 Court with what details I know and recall after this time or you can
5 probably have access to UN documents which have more detail.
6 Q. But as far as you know, was this a camp for Serb prisoners?
7 A. This was a camp for Serb prisoners who generally appeared to be
8 from the town of Hadzici and this was the excuse used for taking UN people
9 hostage in Hadzici in the end of March, 1994. Women surrounded a UN
10 convoy there and wanted to hold the convoy until their men folk were
11 released from this detention centre on the Bosnian side.
12 Q. Sir, these men were not prisoners of war? Not prisoners of war,
13 they were not prisoners?
14 A. I didn't see the camp. Neither side respected the prisoner of war
15 because it is a political question of whether there was a war.
16 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be some misunderstanding as to the
17 "prisoner". Mr. Piletta-Zanin is asking you whether these were
18 prisoners, not prisoners of war, but prisoners under normal law.
19 THE WITNESS: No. It was my understanding they were being treated
20 as prisoners of war in the sense that the Red Cross, I think, visited
21 them, as well as UNHCR. So as such -- I mean, there were lots of people
22 held because of the fighting and there was a question of the status of
23 these people because it was not seen as a legitimate case of war in the
24 sense that the Republic of Srpska was not a legal entity. So I think we
25 used the word "detainee" to avoid attaching the word "prisoner of war"
1 when in some circles it was not agreed that this was in fact a war.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
4 Q. So, in other words, these people were detained because of their
5 ethnic origin?
6 A. No, I wouldn't say that. They were detained because they were
7 men of military age who could possibly engage in fighting and who would
8 have certainly been of an age to have completed their military training in
9 the JNA.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 Witness I would like to go back to some parts of your statement,
12 but first of all I would like to have the document 125 shown to you with
13 the assistance of Mr. Usher, please, which is in relation to what we spoke
14 of earlier; that is, in relation to the ceasefire to which General Galic
15 cooperated a great deal.
16 Witness, do you have this document before you?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Do you recognise it?
19 A. Yes. It originated with the military observers but as a formal
20 protest. It had to be submitted by the sectors.
21 Q. Do you know Colonel Sonic?
22 A. Yes, very well.
23 Q. Was he a high-quality professional?
24 A. Outstanding officer.
25 Q. Very well.
1 Is it true, since you certainly know this document by heart, is it
2 true that this Colonel was complaining of a ceasefire violations on the
3 Muslim side, by the Muslim side?
4 A. Again, the answer is not completely correct. As the incident took
5 place on the boundaries on Sector Sarajevo in the Mount Igman area, on a
6 route that we suspected to be an infiltration route for reinforcing
7 Gorazde. It was at the extreme limits of the sector Sarajevo area which
8 is why it was picked up by military observers and not by anybody else.
9 Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.
10 Now on the subject of the ceasefire, could you please remind us
11 approximately how long it lasted? Was it four months? Five months?
12 A. Well, obviously when the first sniper shot was fired, the
13 ceasefire was broken we already started data collection on the 1st of
14 March. I think that the chances of making peace were disappearing when I
15 left in July of 1994 and they had already been shaken by the attack in
16 Gorazde in April 1994 and the NATO air strikes and the subsequent change
17 in the military posture of both sides.
18 Q. Very well.
19 Witness, would you agree with me to consider that from the
20 beginning of the debates, with regard to establishing the ceasefire until
21 the month that I just indicated, there was more or less a decrease, a
22 notable decrease of combats, of warring acts, whatever they were?
23 A. Definitely. The first -- the last two weeks of February, there
24 was almost no military action whatsoever on the front lines of either
1 Q. Witness, therefore, if I can follow your answer, from the end of
2 January until the end of July 1994, as you have just indicated, that was
3 the period historically where there was an important decrease, a
4 considerable decrease on combat activity and military activity. Is that
6 A. From the ceasefire of mid-February 1994 until I left in July,
7 there was no artillery fire in the city. And there was --
8 Q. Very well.
9 A. -- increasing sniper fire, as more and more it seemed before I
11 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since I know
13 that we took our time, but unfortunately, the Defence had to prepare very
14 quickly, as you know, and the Defence would like to use a little more time
15 and I am saying this because of necessity, if this is possible
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just confer.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Defence has until 10 minutes
19 past 12.00.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 Q. Witness, I am going to go back to the Exhibit 2170, that you were
22 given, as well as 3506 [As interpreted] and Witness these are incidents of
23 the 22nd of January 1994 and incidents on the 4th of February 1994. The
24 exhibits that we saw when you were examined last week, do you remember
1 A. Not until I see them.
2 Q. Do you remember these two dates, the 22nd of January 1994 and the
3 4th of February 1994?
4 A. Not particularly. I might recall them when I see the two reports.
5 Q. Very well.
6 Sir, these are incidents where six children --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis
8 MR. MUNDIS: I believe the English transcript said one of the
9 documents is P3506 and it should be 3706.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your assistance.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Sir, it is in relation to an incident where six children were
13 victims of a shelling that took place on the 22nd of January and on the
14 other hand of an incident to the south of Sarajevo where there were also
15 victims including three children?
16 A. Yes, I have the documents in front of me.
17 Q. The question that I wanted to ask you, Witness, is the following:
18 Do you know if these incidents caused one, an investigation done by a
19 mixed international commission, or any investigation they would have asked
20 questions in relation to the commission or asked the General Galic's
22 A. No. These occurred before the ceasefire. So the mixed
23 commission -- the joint commission which was created at the ceasefire was
24 not in existence. These --
25 Q. I am sorry. I am going to interrupt you here.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 You therefore say that the international commission, the mixed
2 joint commission, was established only after the ceasefire to which -- in
3 which General Galic cooperated; is that correct?
4 A. I am not sure of what mixed commission you otherwise would be
5 talking about. Are you --
6 Q. Yes, that is what I am talking about. Precisely. There were no
7 commissions before?
8 A. Not in Sector Sarajevo.
9 Q. Thank you very much.
10 Now, no more questions on these two exhibits. You can put them
11 aside, Witness. But I would like you to take your statements as we looked
12 at before please. This must be page 646, again. And I would like you to
13 read of paragraph 4 which begins with "regarding protests of attacks on
14 civilians." Could you find it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you please read it?
17 A. "Regarding protests on attacks of civilians. Prior to the
18 February 1994 the sides were at war so it was rather difficult to protest
19 anything. However, in the context of negotiations with all levels of the
20 warring factions it was a constant theme that we did not want any
21 shooting. But if there was any, they should limit their fire to people in
22 uniform. One of the problems with this was a question of who was a
23 soldier. Many people, including women and children, wore camouflage and
24 then many people who were military wore civilian clothes."
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1 Witness you are, therefore, indicating that civilians were wearing
2 camouflage clothes and mistakes were technically possible?
3 A. I think this requires elaboration. Some of the aid that came to
4 Sarajevo, such as from Germany, included items of winter clothing that had
5 a military nature, such as parkas that were given to people in the city
6 from the German army. So, yes, it could possibly be a mistake in if you
7 were targeting individual people, however, artillery is an area weapon,
8 and you target an area. And you usually base that --
9 Q. Sir, I have to interrupt you for reasons of time saving. I am
10 talking about sniping, you know, that we make a difference between the two
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. President, I am going
13 to ask that the witness be shown, and we are going to try to do it all at
14 once, these are two statements of other people. These are statements with
15 numbers ERN 02030107 and 020216. But I can see Mr. Mundis on his feet.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
17 MR. MUNDIS: Again, Mr. President, the Prosecution would object
18 to this witness being shown statements of other witnesses.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this witness
21 testified to a large number of things and he spoke of this person, Caco,
22 who was considered to be a criminal. And this person it seems was
23 rounding people up and bringing civilians to the front line. So I believe
24 that we are talking about relevant things and I wanted to perhaps refresh
25 the witness's memory in relation to some facts.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution is not objecting on
2 the grounds of relevance, but simply on the procedure which
3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin intends to employ. He mentions refreshing the witness's
4 memory in relation to some facts. He can certainly do that without
5 showing this witness statements of other witnesses.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 THE WITNESS: Mr. President --
8 JUDGE ORIE: We are just at this moment discussing a procedural
10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as Mr. Mundis indicated, it is not for reasons
11 of relevance, and you may question the witness about certain events that
12 are facts in your view, but you cannot refresh the memory of this witness
13 by showing him a statement of any other witness. So the subject is not
14 forbidden ground, but the technique you used.
15 So the objection is sustained. Please proceed.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 Q. So, Witness we have a statement by another person, a man called --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, saying who gave the statement,
19 reading the content of the statement, would be the same as showing the
20 statement to the witness. So, therefore, I ask that -- the subject is not
21 forbidden ground, but the technique, and you are, as a matter of fact,
22 using, not in writing, the same technique. Would you please keep this in
23 mind while questioning the witness.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.
25 Q. Now, we have grounds to believe, Witness, that on some occasions
1 it happens that civilians dressed in civilian clothes who were killed on
2 or in or around the area of trenches because they found themselves there
3 because they were forced to be there.
4 Have you never heard any such things?
5 A. I was never -- if there was any talk, it was only a rumour.
6 Because the people that I observed on the front line, appeared to be there
8 Q. Very well.
9 Now, if we start from the principal that this was not a rumour and
10 that indeed there were people who were civilian and who ended up being
11 killed in the trenches, on the trenches, I make a logical conclusion that
12 when UN forces went to check the bodies in the mortuary, they did not know
13 either whether such-and-such civilian had been killed in or around the
14 trenches. Is that correct?
15 A. That could be the case, although everybody that we looked at in
16 the morgue might or might not have military pieces of uniform for wear.
17 We, for sure, did not count women and children as military.
18 Q. Sir, isn't it true that there was a brigade that also had women
19 soldiers in their ranks?
20 A. The cases of women in the ranks were rare enough that it was
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 Sir was there a 7th Brigade that had Mujahedin soldiers?
24 A. There were, again, rumours, but we could never confirm them.
25 Q. Sir, we are going to end on purely technical questions and I would
1 like you to answer by a 'yes' or "no," please, again, in order to gain
3 Is it true that we can consider that there was a railway network,
4 a railway line could be a legitimate military target?
5 A. Only if you considered a source of locomotion was people pushing
6 the railway cars.
7 Q. I have to admit that I did not understand your answer.
8 A. You clarified that the Bosnians had no working railway engines.
9 Q. We don't just have testimony in relation to this, however, apart
10 from knowing whether someone was peddling in the locomotive or not, in the
11 engine or not, in theory, would a railway line represent a legitimate
13 A. If the railway line was confirmed as providing logistic support,
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, your time is out, so one more
16 minute, but then you have to conclude your cross-examination.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 Q. The very last question: Sir, the targets like a network of roads,
19 crossroads, telecommunication centres, official buildings, that were
20 housing command posts and all types of buildings that were housing command
21 posts of any level, are these just listed legitimate military targets?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution objects. That is an
24 extremely compound question.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it certainly is.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may answer the question. So let's just
3 split it up. Network of roads?
4 THE WITNESS: The majority of support that the Bosnian army would
5 have required them to move people on foot and generally to move supplies
6 on foot. What few vehicles they had were very carefully allocated and
7 used at night when there was very little chance that they would be engaged
8 by direct fire weapons on the Serb side.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The question was rather simple, and whether you could
10 answer that by yes or no, crossroads, could that be a military target?
11 THE WITNESS: If there was evidence of military use.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So you say it could be?
13 THE WITNESS: It could be.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Telecommunication centres?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is a legitimate target, but in the Sarajevo
16 context, they were using Motorolas. It didn't make much sense.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Official buildings?
18 THE WITNESS: Official buildings, again, if they considered they
19 were strongly enough built to have military use --
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question was, official buildings that
21 were housed in command posts and all types of buildings that were housed
22 in command posts, both of any level.
23 THE WITNESS: I think they are legitimate military targets. But
24 again by the time I arrived there, I would have expected somebody as
25 professional as General Galic to know exactly where these buildings were.
1 If he knew exactly where they were, one of the strategies could have been
2 to destroy the communications or the command structure of the Bosnian
3 army, particularly if there was an attack threatening the Pale road. And
4 I never did understand why the command post --
5 JUDGE ORIE: The question is not about what you do understand but
6 whether you would have considered and you have answered the question.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you for the time given.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 Mr. Mundis, any need to re-examine the witness?
10 MR. MUNDIS: Just a few questions, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
12 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:
13 Q. Mr. Thomas, you just mentioned and I am quoting: "I would have
14 expected somebody as professional as General Galic to know exactly where
15 these buildings were." What was the basis for your stating that?
16 A. If I can take a few minutes to elaborate. One of the tactical and
17 operational strategies for a commander in the situation of General Galic
18 is to attack the command structure of the forces that are opposing him.
19 In the case of the Bosnian army, these were very junior officers who had
20 gained their experience at -- gained their knowledge at some expense,
21 combat. Therefore, I think by the time I arrived and General Galic had
22 been in place for over a year, he would know exactly where each command
23 post of each of the Bosnian brigades was. And with the artillery
24 resources at his command, over 209 guns that we knew, he could have
25 systematically attacked those specific headquarters and he had
1 observation, direct observation, on many of them, from the high ground
2 that he controlled.
3 So I think that if he wanted those headquarters destroyed
4 particularly the ones that were attacking towards Pale he could have in
5 fact targeted them and made it a specific artillery target instead of the
6 kind of shelling that took place.
7 Q. Mr. Thomas, I would like you to clarify the steps that your UNMOs
8 took in making the distinction between military and civilian victims of
10 A. Did you also wish me to talk about artillery victims.
11 Q. We will get to that next?
12 A. The victims of sniping, the first thing is to try to investigate
13 it in the context of where they were found. If the man is found at a
14 T-junction, and there is no trenches nearby, nothing, you wonder why an
15 individual was killed. If the man is killed near a trench or obviously
16 near a headquarters, then he would be considered a legitimate military
17 target. In those case where the body had been brought to a police
18 station, then we had to rely on the police reporting or reporting of other
19 people. And that is why on the summary you get some asterisks because
20 certainly initially we weren't there in place to see or if somebody else
21 did the investigation, we may not have seen. We could only infer it was
22 probably sniper.
23 Does this answer the question clear enough?
24 Q. Certainly.
25 With respect to victims of shelling, what steps did your UNMOs
1 take to differentiate between civilian and military victims of shelling?
2 A. As we said, women and children were automatically considered
3 civilians, although I will admit that one or two women might have been
4 possibly of military service. The men, it was much more difficult, so
5 generally those that we considered not to have been of an age to have done
6 military time in the JNA, they were therefore too young to be much
7 military use and would have required training to be acceptable.
8 Also, there were people over a certain age who would be considered
9 unlikely military personnel which left a large number of young males in an
10 age bracket, I would say, from 17 to certainly 45, depending on how they
11 appeared, which could be considered as possible military age males of
12 soldiers -- or for soldiers.
13 Q. Would all of those males in that age group be counted as military
14 for your purposes of reporting?
15 A. This is where it became a question of context. If the man was
16 walking in the street, for example, the shelling that took place around
17 the new station, where people were walking to avoid Sniper Alley, there
18 was no apparent reason to think they could have been a soldier on leave.
19 It could be anybody. And these might be counted as civilians, those males
20 that fell within the military age. In context, if we could clearly
21 establish that it was in a context; for example, a waiter in a restaurant
22 that was hit.
23 Q. Other than that, however, all males in this age group would be
24 counted as military?
25 A. Not necessarily. As I say, we tried to put it in context. In a
1 lot of cases, we only saw the bodies at the morgue.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The question was other than that
3 THE WITNESS: Okay, other than that, no. Sorry. Could you
4 rephrase it again just to make sure I am clear.
5 MR. MUNDIS:
6 Q. Other than the males that you could identify as civilian based on
7 the context, if you could not identify them base on the context, were
8 males in the 17 to 45 year age group counted as military or civilian?
9 A. Generally as military or possibly military.
10 Q. You testified earlier that there was increased sniper fire after
11 the ceasefire began to break down?
12 A. Ye.
13 Q. Do you know if that sniper fire was emanating from both sides or
14 from only one of the sides?
15 A. Most definitely it came from both sides. And for me, it was an
16 indication of higher direction that we were not satisfied with the
17 ceasefires that we had achieved at the local level.
18 Q. In response to some questions from Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you at least
19 implied that General Galic was of assistance in implementing the
20 ceasefire; is that correct?
21 A. Yes. I can say that the -- to the best of my knowledge during my
22 time there, during the ceasefire, that no heavy weapons were fired by
23 General Galic's forces. The few investigations that we did of suspected
24 heavy weapons turned out to be hand held antitank weapons fired with a
25 trajectory that was similar to that of a mortar.
1 Q. Based on the fact that once the ceasefire came into effect General
2 Galic's forces did not fire any heavy weapons, were you able to draw any
3 conclusions about the command and control structure of the Bosnian Serb
5 A. Yes. I would say that I had much more confidence in the Serbs
6 adhering to their side of the agreement if they agreed, than I did with
7 some of the Bosnian forces.
8 Q. You mentioned that there were rumours of ABiH forces mortaring or
9 shelling Bosnian civilians in the city. To your knowledge, were any
10 investigations carried out to either confirm or deny these rumours?
11 A. No investigations were carried out specifically to confirm or deny
12 these rumours. We never had an incident that offered a possibility of
13 doing such an investigation or suggested that it was necessary.
14 Q. In response to some questions with respect to potential
15 discrepancies in the situation reports, I would like to ask you again
16 about observed incoming and outgoing artillery and mortar fire.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you have any idea or estimate as to what percentage of ingoing
19 or outgoing fire was observed, as a general rule?
20 A. Within the city, we generally observed incoming fire and so it
21 would be difficult if we were accurate in determining the outgoing fire or
22 the relationship. But I would say, the proportion, there was a lot more
23 incoming than outgoing. The converse was true on the Serb side. We were
24 cited to view outgoing fire and were not in a position to see likely
25 impacts. So the reporting was distorted.
1 Q. During the time that you were the Senior Military Observer in
2 Sarajevo, did you -- did the UN have any observation posts on Mount Igman?
3 A. Yes, it did.
4 Q. Did the observation posts on Mount Igman count or tally outgoing
5 fire from Mount Igman?
6 A. When we were able to, yes.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
8 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions,
9 Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as the witness
14 has mentioned some new information in response to the additional questions
15 asked by the Prosecution, can we in that connection clarify certain
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, on what issue?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, can I -- I can say it
20 before the witness?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see. You understand French, Mr. Thomas?
22 THE WITNESS: Not well enough to make a response, I don't think.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But it is of no use to ask you to take off your
24 headphones because you could still hear Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 I will leave it up to you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If you would just
1 indicate in what -- in respect of what --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly, Mr. President. The
3 answer relates to what was said by the witness in connection with the men
4 who were hit by sniper near a command post. This witness said a while
5 ago, "Yes, we counted that person as a soldier." And we have a very
6 specific question to ask
7 JUDGE ORIE: Just put a question, perhaps not a whole series of
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Quite.
10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
11 Q. [Interpretation] In response to the question asked to you earlier
12 on, you said that if a person, a man of military age carrying weapons were
13 to be found, the victim of a shot near a command post, you would be
14 tempted to consider him a soldier with or without uniform. Is that
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. This policy applied of course to all members to the best of your
18 knowledge of the UN personnel, at least those that you were in charge of?
19 A. This only applied to the United Nations Military Observers who
20 were under my command.
21 Q. Very well. Thank you. We are talking about the same thing.
22 Witness this does imply that the military observers to be 100 per
23 cent sure would have to know all the command posts all the way up to the
24 company posts. Is that correct?
25 A. We would not necessarily know the company posts. We would know
1 the battalion command post.
2 Q. Very well.
3 But you did not necessarily know the command post of companies nor
4 below that, most probably?
5 A. We suspected most of the company command posts were in the front
7 Q. But my question was also below the company level.
8 A. In my army platoon commanders and company commanders are in the
9 front lines
10 JUDGE ORIE: That was not the question.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: In your army, it may be, sir --
12 THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge most company level and
13 lower level officers were in the front line.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. The question was the following: You told us, Witness, that the
16 UNMO personnel were familiar with the locations of the command post at the
17 level of brigades and battalions; is that what you told us?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Consequently, they were not necessarily familiar with the command
20 posts at the company level and below that level. Is that correct?
21 A. If there was in fact a command post at that level.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions for you.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Well, you said that the UN or at least the military observers
2 considered that they were not prisoners of war but that they were
3 detainees because the Republika Srpska was not considered a legitimate
4 power. My question is whether there was or not a war? I don't mean an
5 international war, but a war.
6 A. Most definitely there was a war. There was more fire in one day
7 than my colleagues in Afghanistan will see in their entire tour.
8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Okay. Another question is the following: In
9 one of the documents which we have seen number 1753, we can read the
10 following: "The situation within the city is not improving. An
11 aggressive exchange continue between the rival Bosnian and HVO brigades."
12 Could you elaborate a little bit on that?
13 A. This was -- sorry, did I understand you to say rebel Bosnian --
14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Rival.
15 A. Yes, there was a fighting between the Bosnian brigades. Two of
16 the Bosnian brigades were commanded by people that I felt had criminal
17 backgrounds. And one of them was eventually -- the commander of the 10th
18 Brigade was eventually disposed of by the Bosnians. So there would be
19 some conflict. In the HVO brigade as well, there was a question that
20 their perception of the front line was that there was criminal activities
21 going on. So in November in Sarajevo, the Bosnian government undertook
22 steps to deal with suspected criminal elements within the Bosnian army.
23 Does that answer your question to enough detail? So without
24 looking at the document, I can't be sure exactly if that is the reference
25 to --
1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I can give you the date. It is October, 1993.
2 A. Yes, that would be -- they started what I would call a clean up of
3 criminal activity within the Bosnian army from about the time I arrived
4 until -- it seemed to be finished in November, the end of November.
5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Of course the document is referring to the
7 A. The Croatians were involved in the activities. And we had the
8 anomaly of where the Croatians in Kiseljak shelled the Croatians in
9 Sarajevo who were fighting for the Bosnians. There seemed to be more than
10 met the eye. It was more than fighting than between two belligerents. Of
11 course the position of the HVO in Sarajevo was always tenuous because of
12 course we had both where the HVO was actively fighting the Bosnians.
13 There was some kind of criminal activity. We weren't always --
14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes, I understand that. Thank you.
15 You mentioned that you saw some tanks activity of the BS army
16 through the city area. I would like you to elaborate a little bit on this
17 issue. I mean, dates if you remember, or areas, which area --
18 A. Are you talking about the Serb tanks firing --
19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes, BSA tanks.
20 A. Yes. I can remember specifically one incident because it is of
21 interest to me as a tanker. I was visiting my OP in Vogosca and from the
22 OP window, about 500 metres away in a field I saw a tank pull up and it
23 was a tank that I was very interested in for professional reasons. It was
24 the Yugoslav army improved version of the T-72. I think it is much the
25 same model as they eventually sold to Kuwait. And this tank not only
1 pulled up into an open field, but it fired. And it fired several rounds.
2 And then it backed off and it disappeared while the team was phoning a
3 complaint to the Vogosca brigade commander. So I went up to the area
4 where this tank had fired and it had -- it seemed to be firing directly
5 down a street. It could not see very much on either side of the street,
6 but with its gun it could cover 3 or 4 kilometres straight down a street.
7 So it was just a very narrow field of fire, but it would control anything
8 that tried to cross the street.
9 I was quite surprised that the tank had been selected to cover
10 this. This is why I made a note. This happened October, November. I
11 remember it was still before the winter. And I remember the incident very
12 well because I was so interested in the tank and also while it fired, the
13 firing characteristics for more than one reason. And then we got up to
14 see it. So this is one specific incident where I saw the tank fire. I
15 don't know the casualties because it would have required relating -- if
16 there would have been casualties, they would have come back in through the
17 city and would been in the morgue, by another team.
18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Do you remember more incidents, more cases?
19 A. Yes. Well of course, on New Years's Eve, the PTT building was hit
20 by a tank round and that was determined by a technical expert that it was
21 a tank round
22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Tank round from --
23 A. Bosnian Serb tank. So it was -- and that is a technical report
24 which would be available to the Court. And the interesting thing about
25 that was, I was told that it was a Serb tank that fired at another target,
1 but missed the target and it hit us instead. Because I don't think they
2 deliberately targeted the UN building. But the pieces of that round, and
3 there is a technical report available. So that was another direct
4 evidence of tanks firing into the city.
5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has a question for you.
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. You
8 said in your testimony that the superior authorities, and now I am
9 referring to the ceasefire, that certain superior authorities did not want
10 the ceasefire to continue. I believe that you said and I shall quote you:
11 [In English] "Not wanting the ceasefire."
12 [Interpretation] Is it an impression you had or did you base this
13 opinion on concrete facts or is it a simple observation or view that you
14 are expressing?
15 A. It is a combination of the three. If I can elaborate on the
16 simple facts. First on the field, the joint commission was to get people
17 from both sides to meet. So in one area, in fact near Rajlovac, which you
18 have already seen on the map, I had the battalion commanders from both
19 sides ready to agree that we would meet in the centre on the line and
20 discuss exactly the position of the front line so that any future
21 violations we would be in agreement as to where the line actually was and
22 what state the trenches were in because that was a complaint, that the
23 lines were being changed or that trenches were being improved or that
24 people retaliated with sniper fire because they were doing work. I had
25 the agreement of both the battalion commanders. I had the agreed time and
1 day and I went down to meet on both sides the teams who were to bring the
2 two commanders up, just the two commanders, and we were to meet at this
4 But at the last minute on both sides, there was some reason given
5 they could not do it. That was the example. I knew already from my our
6 discussions with some of the Bosnians that they were afraid or anxious
7 that the ceasefire would put in place a line which would be difficult to
8 change. They thought they would give the Bosnian Serbs territory which
9 did not belong to them, and this line was to be -- would be fixed by a
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So, if I understand correctly,
12 you are saying that the superior authorities, according to you, were
13 targeting mostly the so-called government forces?
14 A. I would say that the Bosnians had more reasons not to want the
15 ceasefire than the Serbs. And the reason I say this is, I think -- I
16 think I maybe elaborated last Thursday -- I think the Bosnians were
17 starting to win. That was the first -- for example, in Grbavica.
18 Secondly, they were afraid, and this was again apparent in the
19 negotiations for Gorazde, that they were afraid that the ceasefires would
20 fix the Serb lines and make that the final boundary. So when we talked
21 about the Gorazde ceasefire, they specifically asked that the ceasefire,
22 the Bosnian position, was the ceasefire would only apply to Gorazde and
23 the Serb position was that the ceasefire would apply throughout Bosnia.
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I would like, if you don't mind,
25 to be precise. When you said, "superior authorities" on both sides did
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 you mean or was it on the side of the government forces? That was my
2 question. Your impression.
3 A. My impression was it was on the side -- mainly on the side of the
4 government forces.
5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You said also that General Galic
6 actively took part in the implementation of the ceasefire and as a
7 reasoning, you said the shelling stopped and it was only the activities of
8 snipers that continued.
9 Now, do you think that these snipers, did they depend on the
10 superior hierarchy of the Bosnian army or were they a section that was a
11 part, the department that was a part, which was really on the margins of
12 the military hierarchy?
13 A. I can answer this specifically. In the case of the Bosnians, the
14 only sniper position I visited was under control of the Minister of the
15 Interior. I could not get authority to visit that Bosnian sniper position
16 going through military authorities.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Of the Serb parts?
18 A. On the Serb side, I had the feeling that it was controlled at the
19 brigade or even battalion level, that there would be instances of sniper
20 fire which appeared to me to be done within a battalion area and had no
21 reference to the overall corps situation.
22 For example, on the Serb side, if there was digging done on the
23 Bosnian side -- and remember the Serbs had fewer people to do the digging,
24 the Bosnian -- the Serbs would respond with sniper fire and then we would
25 intervene by asking them why they were shooting. Then we would take
1 action and then work out a negotiation where the Serbs would stop shooting
2 if the Bosnians would stop digging.
3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Thomas, I will try to put two questions to you
5 and do it rather quickly because we are quite close to where we have to
6 have break.
7 You testified about that there were rumours that people were
8 killed by people of their own side for, as you said, "other reasons."
9 You were then asked if those be political reasons. You said in
10 some cases, it was "suspected." Then one of the next questions was:
11 "When you spoke of political reasons, would it be perhaps to stir the
12 media or perhaps to increase the figures for political reasons?" You
13 said: "That certainly would be a political reason."
14 Do you know that this reason was applied for, may I say,
15 "intraparty shooting" or was it also in the domain of rumours or...
16 A. I can go back to the one example where the man was killed at the
17 T-junction between --
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you say, "I know that for this reason, intraparty
19 shooting took place" fine. If you say it is just a deduction or part of
20 rumours, please confirm that.
21 A. I will say it is a deduction. And my deductions would be based
22 that there was no military reason.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You said sniping increased after the ceasefire.
24 Would that be valid for sniping at military targets or would that be for
25 sniping at civilian targets or both?
1 A. I would have to look at that summary. That is one of the reasons
2 we developed that summary, that sniper summary.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You say we could read that from the figures you gave
4 in your summaries?
5 A. I think you could develop -- that is why we did that, to try to
6 analyse it. And there might be casualties there which, again, as I
7 identified earlier, the Serbs did not always report their casualties.
8 There might be other casualties that are not reported.
9 JUDGE ORIE: But that could give us a clue as to the answer to
10 that question. Mr. Thomas -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. We have to stop.
11 It is a quarter to 1.00.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I know we have to stop, but
13 perhaps we could recall this witness if you give us leave. This was in
14 relation to the Judge Nieto-Navia regarding the question of the tank that
15 fired and also in to regard to the sniping question which wasn't answered.
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...there,
17 Mr. Thomas, I am not saying good-bye to you at this very moment. We will
18 see whether there are any additional questions for you after the break.
19 We will have a break for one hour and we will start at a quarter to 2.00.
20 And once again I would like to thank the interpreters -- Madam Registrar
21 does not seem to agree.
22 Let's make the break for one hour. That means we will meet back
23 at 10 minutes to 2.00.
24 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.45 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 1.55 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin [Interpretation] The Chamber
3 accepts that you may ask another two questions of the witness, that is the
4 last question and the very last question in your language.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
6 Mr. President.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Defence counsel have his microphone
8 on, please.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Consequently, Mr. President,
10 thank you twice.
11 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you spoke earlier of the tank and you
13 remember that. Is it true that in your statements you declared two
14 things: The first thing was that Bosniak soldiers were disguised in the
15 tank in some way to -- sorry. I apologise. Serb soldiers were disguised
16 and they were in a tank in order to trick the enemy and you knew about
17 that tank; and the second thing, was that in fact Bosniak soldiers were
18 active with their tanks in the city centre. Do you recall that?
19 A. There is two parts to this question. The first part, are you
20 asking me about the tank that I responded to the Bench about in an earlier
21 statement. There was no question that the Serb soldiers were disguised.
22 The tank was identified as being a Serb tank, it was in the Serb lines and
23 it was in an area known to be occupied by the Serbs. So I don't
24 understand your question when you use the word "disguised". They weren't
25 in the tank in order to trick the enemy because the tank was in obvious
1 view. Again, I don't quite understand how you are framing the question
2 and what you want me to respond. If it was a Bosnian Serb tank that moved
3 into the open after having been camouflaged, fired into the city and then
4 moved back out of site.
5 Q. You said, Witness, the following: [In English] "On the 19th of
6 October 1993, Bosnian soldiers disguised as Serbs shot at the BH
7 Commander. The Bosnians also began to use tanks firing from within the
8 city in what I thought was an attempt to draw retaliatory fire."
9 [Interpretation] Do you recall this in your statement?
10 A. Yes. You are now talking about not my statement to the Bench, but
11 in fact my testimony that I gave in 1998; is this correct?
12 Q. I was talking about your statement, that is it. That is exactly
14 A. In my testimony that I said, yes, indeed, that is a documented
15 allegation that the UN made that in fact the BH Commander in October was
16 fired at by Bosnians who were disguised or simulating Serbs and I suggest
17 that the most appropriate person to question on that is somebody from the
18 BH Command who was in the headquarters at that time.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that is a new issue. It has
20 nothing to do -- well, nothing I don't know. But it is not directly
21 related to the question of the Bench. Please, your last question.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 Q. The very last question, the very last question is in relation to
24 the organisation of snipers. Could you categorically exclude, Witness,
25 that among the snipers, the lone snipers, that these private persons, that
1 they were waging their own private war in some way. Could you exclude the
2 possibility of that, sir?
3 A. It doesn't make military sense to me.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you could exclude that, Mr.
6 THE WITNESS: Not completely, but --
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Thank you, Witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please finish your answer, Mr. Thomas.
10 THE WITNESS: Not completely, but it sounds a bit too much like
11 some recent movies. I think that there was no question that sniper
12 activity was directed by the -- in general, by somebody superior to the
13 sniper himself.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No other questions. Thank
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I may ask just a couple of
19 questions to clarify the questions relating to the witness's statement,
21 JUDGE ORIE: I just said that the issue of the witness statement
22 was not in response to the Bench questions. I would rather prevent the
23 parties from going back to the statement which they could have done
25 MR. MUNDIS: Very well, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Thomas, this finally concludes your testimony
2 given in this Court. You have answered the questions of the parties. You
3 have also answered the questions of the Bench. I thank you very much for
4 coming and for staying another weekend here in The Hague. I wish you a
5 safe trip home again.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and if I can in
7 any way add to the proceedings at any time, please feel free.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, before going through the documents,
11 I would first like to indicate that not upon the request of any of the
12 parties or of the Bench, the witness made some markings. I didn't see any
13 words, but just lines on documents D116, D117, and D123. May I take it,
14 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that since the markings have been made beyond control
15 of the Bench or the parties that you would tender the blank documents and
16 that we will decide on admitting them into evidence.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In any case, yes, as you like
18 it, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then, I further notice that of some of the documents
20 the copies were not perfect in the sense that sometimes the last line has
21 been fallen away. I do understand that the Prosecution was provided with
22 documents which are better copies and since no questions in whatever way
23 have been put specifically to these last lines, I take it, Mr. Mundis,
24 that the Prosecution wants to tender the documents in their better
1 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, please, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We will give a decision on that. Has the Defence
3 been provided with copies?
4 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President, this morning.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you then please guide us
6 through the documents.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3706, UNPROFOR report; Exhibit P2170,
8 UNPROFOR shelling report; Exhibit P2578, weekly summary; Exhibit P2442,
9 UNPROFOR Sector Sarajevo Lima headquarters report; Exhibit P2761, summary
10 of sniping; Exhibit P2297, summary of casualties, December 1993; Exhibit
11 P2361, UNPROFOR report, date 16 February 1994 under seal; P1782, under
12 seal, document bearing ERN number R0008247; Exhibit P2088 under seal,
13 report, three page, first ERN number R0008025; Exhibit P1753 under seal,
14 UNMO daily sitrep, 17 October to 18 October 1993; Exhibit P2064, under
15 seal, daily sitrep, 4 January to 5 January 1994; P2051 under seal, daily
16 sitrep bearing ERN R0008036; P2034 under seal, document bearing ERN
17 R0008170; Exhibit P2020 under seal, daily sitrep bearing ERN R0008178;
18 Exhibit P2012 under seal, daily sitrep bearing ERN R0008179, under seal;
19 Exhibit P1884 under seal, daily sitrep R0008231 Exhibit P1911 under seal,
20 daily sitrep R0008216; P1921 under seal, daily sitrep R0008213; Exhibit
21 P2055 under seal daily sitrep R0008233; Exhibit P2063 under seal, sit-rep
22 R0008030; Exhibit P1927 under seal, R008212; Exhibit P1937 under seal,
23 R0008210; Exhibit P1963 under seal R0008202; Exhibit P2002 under seal,
24 R0008183; Exhibit P2087 under seal, R0008181; Exhibit D112, map marked by
25 witness; Exhibit D113, UNMO report ERN 00612157; Exhibit D114 under seal,
1 shootrep, increp, 18 December 1992 to 19 December 1992; Exhibit D115 under
2 seal, shootrep, increp, 06 April, 07 April 1993; D116, shootrep, increp,
3 13 December 1992, 14 December 1992; D117 under seal, daily sit-rep
4 R0008031; D118 under seal, shootrep, increp, 12 April to 13 April 1993;
5 Exhibit D119, document page 676; D120, page 706 of the document; D121,
6 summary of sniping; D122, photocopy of photograph; D123 letter to Mr.
7 Stoltenberg and Lord Owen; D124, letter to Mr. Stoltenberg and Lord Owen
8 bearing ERN number 00144553; and D125, UNPROFOR document bearing ERN
9 number 00552730.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President the Prosecution respectfully objects
12 with respect to the admission of D122, photocopy of the satellite
13 photographs, on the grounds that there was a lack of foundation and that
14 the witness was not familiar with that photograph and had not seen that
15 photograph before.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. If it was
17 necessary --
18 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please. The French court reporter has
19 some technical problems. Let's first wait until it has been solved. It
20 has been solved now.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, if we are
23 to exclude all the exhibits that the witnesses don't know perfectly about,
24 then we would have a lot of work. Another point is that what was
25 determined in this exhibit was to find out how these -- this expert in
1 firing by tanks could determine such-and-such a target. Now, we would be
2 able to establish, in the procedure to follow, that it was possible to
3 establish the entrance to the tunnel, as it was taken, the photograph was
4 taken, by some forces at some point which is extremely interesting and
5 should not be not tendered. This witness spoke about civilians, about
6 civilian targets, but he spoke about civilian targets that civilian
7 facilities that were next to military targets.
8 So, from there we can deduce a number of things and the fact that
9 this witness does not have a perfect knowledge of this photograph has
10 nothing to do with this. There are other documents that the witness did
11 not know about and he said it. He stated it. He stated when it was
12 before his time or after his time and he said that it corresponded more
13 or less to the former and he said he was able to answer the question and
14 the Prosecution didn't object to that.
15 Therefore, since the Prosecution did not object to other
16 documents, other exhibits, then we don't see why it should object to this
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.
19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the issue is not so much whether the
20 witness has perfect knowledge about the documents because clearly there
21 are situation reports and what not that are in the same fort that have
22 been submitted by this witness and he can testify about situation reports
23 prior to or after the time he was there. The issue here is this witness
24 had never seen this photograph before. It wasn't a question of having
25 less than perfect knowledge about it, it was a question of having any
1 knowledge whatsoever about the satellite photograph. The second point of
2 course with respect to the witness's ability to determine targets as a
3 tank officer, this is an aerial satellite photograph, Mr. President, and I
4 fail to see my learned colleague's point with respect to his expertise in
5 determining targets as a tank officer.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Simply to find out in relation
10 to the question whether he knew or did not know, I could hear it
11 mentioned. We were able to show a map to the witness, and he did not know
12 it. That is very well. But he was able to indicate quite well where the
13 Sharpstone feature was and this is important in relation to other
14 witnesses that we heard who were military officers, but who were not even
15 able to tell us where it was, this Sharpstone feature. So what we would
16 ask is that even if certain documents are not known, according to one's
17 knowledge, it is possible to bring a little bit of truth into these
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber has decided not
20 to admit D122, not because the Chamber would not be willing to hear
21 whatever evidence on a tunnel, but the witness -- the document has not
22 been sufficiently identified, doesn't indicate the place, doesn't indicate
23 the date. The witness could not tell us anything about the photograph he
24 had never seen before. So this is not a way of preventing the Defence to
25 produce evidence on the tunnel or a tunnel, but not in the way it is done,
1 that means, by a photograph which is unknown to the witness and which has
2 not been sufficiently identified.
3 Madam Registrar, just in order to -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. So we are
5 going to have a problem of protocol and transcript because this witness
6 however, did answer some questions that I asked on the basis of the
7 photograph. But I did not describe the photograph. Now, could I perhaps
8 be allowed to describe it for the record, for the transcript, because we
9 will not know what he is referring to, his testimony.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has drawn conclusions on the basis of --
11 for the first time in his life looking at the photograph, which is not the
12 kind of evidence that should be admitted. Even if he answered questions
13 in relation to that photograph that does not mean that the Chamber will
14 attach probative value to his conclusions on the basis of this photograph.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, may I just ask you, the -- I think
17 the transcript -- but let me just look it up. I have some difficulties in
18 2782 or was it 1782 that was the 8th mentioned exhibit. Madam Registrar
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is 1782. Then the documents are admitted
21 into evidence AND under seal when indicated so by you, Madam Registrar,
22 and let me just have one additional question.
23 D116, that was not under sea?
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Since the ERN number is not proceeded by an "R" I do
1 understand that it is not necessary to admit it under seal. So, therefore
2 with the exception of D122, all the documents are admitted into evidence
3 as indicated, under seal when mentioned so by the Registrar.
4 Then, Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to call its next
5 witness or is there any other issue you would like to raise?
6 MR. IERACE: Before I call the next witness, Mr. President, I wish
7 to hand up a document in relation to the request made last week for a
8 report in relation to the testimony of the witness Edin Sulic. I have
9 some copies.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we have to discuss them now or shall we
11 first read them?
12 MR. IERACE: No.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So we will receive the report and when necessary, we
14 will have argument about it.
15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Since
17 Mr. Ierace is on his feet, could he let us know so that we can be prepared
18 for the next witness and could he enlighten us on the question of
19 grattage. I know that I am just repeating myself, but could we have some
20 information, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think that is at least to some extent what the
22 report is about. Is it -- is the grattage an issue which we expect to be
23 raised during the testimony of the next witness?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is not very probable, but
25 it is imaginable
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if that were to occur, of course, you are
2 welcome to intervene, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 Mr. Ierace
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I briefly raise a second
5 matter. Given the order made by the Trial Chamber this morning in
6 relation to Witness W, who is giving evidence tomorrow, might I simply
7 respectfully draw to your attention that pursuant to that order there will
8 be a need to accommodate an additional person in the Trial Chamber.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I am aware that the --
10 MR. IERACE: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- was mentioned in your request.
12 MR. IERACE: That being the case, I am ready to call the next
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I am
16 taking note of this document. It was not translated to us in Serbian but
17 that is not very important --
18 JUDGE ORIE: It is not at this moment, if you would please first
19 give the opportunity to the Chamber to read it and whenever there is any
20 need to discuss the report we will do that after we all have read it.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher.
23 Yes, Mr. Mundis
24 MR. MUNDIS: With your leave, Mr. President, I will withdraw from
25 the courtroom?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes please do so, Mr. Mundis.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 WITNESS: RICHARD MOLE
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mole, I presume?
5 THE WITNESS: Correct.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please stand up just for a while.
7 Mr. Mole, before giving us testimony in this court, the Rules of
8 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you
9 will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. May I
10 invite you to make that declaration and the text will be handed out to you
11 by the usher.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth
14 and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mole. Please be seated. You will
16 first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.
17 Examined by Mr. Ierace:
18 Q. Mr. Mole, were you born on the 12th of April 1950?
19 A. I was, sir.
20 Q. In 1969, did you enlist in the British Army?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Did you train at Sandhurst?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. By 1992 were you a Lieutenant-Colonel in the British army?
25 A. I was.
1 Q. In May of 1992, were you posted to the former Yugoslavia as an
2 UNMO, United Nations military observer?
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, I am sorry. I am
4 really sorry, but again, the rhythm -- the pace is too fast. I see that
5 the French booth is translating Lieutenant-Colonel by another expression,
6 so we would kindly ask Mr. Ierace to slow down a bit.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mole and Mr. Ierace, everything that you say has
8 to be translated into French and into B/C/S. So would you please slow
9 down. I will try to follow the French channel so that I can keep on eye
10 on whether they can cope with it or not.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
12 MR. IERACE:
13 Q. In September of 1992, were you appointed as the Senior Military
14 Observer for Sarajevo?
15 A. Yes, I was.
16 Q. Was that sometimes shortened to SMO.
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Did you remain in that position until approximately the 26th of
19 December 1992?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. As SMO, were you in charge of approximately 60 UNMOs in total from
22 both sides of the confrontation lines in Sarajevo?
23 A. I was.
24 Q. Mr. Mole, we have heard evidence in the trial so far in relation
25 to the period that you were the SMO to the effect that UNMOs were divided
1 into two groups. Each positioned on opposite sides of the confrontation
2 lines and designated as Papa UNMOs for the Presidency side and Lima UNMOs
3 for the Sarajevo Romanija Corps side. Is that your understanding of the
4 situation at the time in Sarajevo?
5 A. Yes, it was.
6 Q. From time to time did you change the position of Papa and Lima
7 observation posts?
8 A. Yes, that was within my remit.
9 Q. When doing so on the Lima side what were the priorities in
10 determining new positions?
11 A. The overriding issue on the Lima side was to ensure that we had
12 coverage of as many weapon sites as we could possibly manage within the
13 manning structure that I was permitted to retain.
14 Q. When you changed positions, or add new positions, on the Papa
15 side, that is, new observation posts what was the priority?
16 A. The priority on the Papa side was a slight variance from that I
17 have already described. The heavy weapons were not so much in evidence on
18 Papa side. So our main task was observation of the city. To achieve that
19 observation, it was necessary that the observation posts selected had
20 height advantage, so that would be a primary consideration.
21 I would, however, like to add one other rider and that is that
22 safety was of paramount importance because as we gained height for that
23 primary objective, we naturally came closer to the front lines and lines
24 of confrontation.
25 Q. And was that because in many instances the front line, that is the
1 lines of confrontation were on the valley edge, that is, as one gained
2 height from the valley floor?
3 A. That is a correct assumption.
4 Q. Apart from making --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I also ask you to make a small break
6 before putting your next question to the witness.
7 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.
8 Q. Apart from observations made from the posts, were the UNMOs
9 expected to move around beyond the posts in making observations?
10 A. When I inherited the appointment, there was an element of static
11 observation posts on the Papa side. So in particular there, I was keen
12 that we should introduce a mobility which would permit a greater coverage
13 of the city within the limited manpower which had been allocated to me.
14 This slight change in policy was extremely useful on the Lima side, but
15 for slightly different reasons in that we would be able, hopefully, to
16 monitor more weapon sites than we were when I initially assumed my
18 Q. Did they nevertheless occur on the Papa side?
19 A. Yes, they did.
20 Q. How successful do you assess the Papa side observations to have
22 A. I take it that your question relates to their ability to observe
23 the city, am I right?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. In that case, the answer to your question is: Very successful. I
1 would perceive that we would cover 95 per cent of the city.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is just to -- page 25,
4 line 94, it is a very tiny mistake in the French translation.
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...noticed that
6 there was a difference. Perhaps you could repeat your answer, Mr. Mole,
7 to the question about the successfulness, at least your assessment of the
8 successfulness of the Papa side observations. You started your answer by
9 saying that: "You took it that the question relates to the ability to
10 observe the city." And then you continued your answer. Could you please
11 repeat on from that point.
12 THE WITNESS: I would consider that the coverage of the city by
13 the Papa observation posts was successful in that it covered 95 per cent
14 of the city.
15 MR. IERACE:
16 Q. How would you gauge the success or otherwise of the observations
17 made by the Lima UNMOs?
18 A. We had military observers on a number of weapon sites and the
19 decision as to where they were located had been made before I arrived in
20 the city. And, as is my understanding, as part of the airport agreement.
21 I have already intimated that I had it within my power to change those
22 locations, but I was bound by the agreement, and I couldn't change those
23 locations at random. For the same reason, therefore, they didn't
24 necessarily cover all the weapon sites which I knew existed around the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 It is difficult to analyse how many weapon sites around the city
2 were not covered. So, therefore, to answer your question, on a percentage
3 basis, to relate to that I have answered for Papa side is not so easy.
4 Q. So as to avoid any misunderstanding, when you refer to "weapon
5 sites around the city," which side of the confrontation lines are you
6 referring to? The Papa side, the Lima side or both?
7 A. Within the picture that we have been discussing, on the Lima side.
8 Q. Now, how were you able to determine that there were gun sites, gun
9 batteries, that you were not observing through your UNMOs on the Lima
11 A. One of the functions of the Papa side was to observe fall of shot
12 within the city. One of the tasks of the weapon site military observers
13 on the Lima side was to observe rounds outgoing from those weapons. At
14 the end of each day, we would assess the two sets of figures. They were
15 represented in the situation report that was submitted daily. The two
16 sets of figures were mathematically at variance. The numbers of rounds
17 fired did not always equal the number of rounds that landed within the
18 city; the latter often being greater. By observation and deduction, there
19 were more weapons available on the Lima side than we had monitored.
20 Q. We have also heard evidence that there was not direct
21 communication between Papa side UNMOs and Lima side UNMOs. Was there
22 communication to a headquarters from each of the two sides?
23 A. Perhaps I had better explain again the relative status of the Papa
24 and Lima side which, if you will forgive me, I don't know whether present
25 company understand.
1 There was deliberately no communication between the Papa side and
2 the Lima side.
3 Q. Indeed, that was the reason that I informed you of the state of
4 evidence so as to save some time. Could I ask you this: Did the UNMOs,
5 when recording outgoing fire from the Lima side and incoming fire from the
6 Papa side take note of the time of each of those events?
7 A. One of the major forms that we used whilst making our
8 observations, whether that be on the Papa or the Lima side, was a
9 standardised form. It was structured to allow the maximum information to
10 be supplied to me at my headquarters. And that form contained quite a
11 serious amount of information. It was broken down, as I recall, into a
12 number of serials, and each of those serials had a subletter which
13 referred to time, place and further detail.
14 Q. Was it possible with that information that was available to you
15 from each of the two sides to marry up a record of outgoing fire and then
16 by reference to the relative times, a record of incoming fire on the Papa
18 A. Yes. That was a major task for us daily. With the one rider that
19 I have already mentioned that there would be a disparity in numbers and so
20 clearly it wasn't an operation which ended up with 100 per cent success
22 Q. Indeed, was that --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, could you please just take a pause. I am
24 trying to follow the French channel. You could now continue
25 MR. IERACE:
1 Q. Indeed was that the mechanism which enabled you to determine that
2 not all sources of fire from the Lima side were under observation, that
3 is, the disparity in total numbers and more particularly the records of
4 incoming fire which did not have a counterpart of observed outgoing fire
5 from the Lima side?
6 A. Yes, that was the major mechanism to establish that fact.
7 Q. All right.
8 Now, we have also heard evidence in the trial, and I say this to
9 save time, that under your position of SMO, there was a Papa side
10 SubSector Commander and a Lima side SubSector Commander. Who was or who
11 were the Papa side SubSector Commanders during your tenure as SMO?
12 A. Flight Lieutenant Carl Harding.
13 Q. On which side?
14 A. Papa side.
15 Q. And on the Lima side?
16 A. Gwynn Rees Michael Beary. They were two that come instantly to
18 Q. Is Gwynn, as in Gwynn Rees, spelled G-w-y-n-n, Rees, R-e-e-s?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was he a lieutenant commander?
21 A. He was.
22 Q. During the time that you were there on the Lima side, was one of
23 your subordinates Pat Henneberry?
24 A. Yes. He had an appointment on the Lima side where he literally
25 took over and looked after the Lima side for me.
1 Q. How did that appointment differ from the appointment of the Lima
2 SubSector Commander, if at all?
3 A. On the Lima side of their own choice, they had a substructure
4 which was up to them to organise, but as my tour proceeded, we had more
5 changes in term of what we called Lima 9 who was the commander of the Lima
6 side then we did on the Papa side. That is why I name three people as
7 opposed to the one on the Papa side.
8 Q. Do you mean by that -- do you mean by that that Pat Henneberry was
9 a subsector commander on the Lima side?
10 A. Ye.
11 Q. Who was the Lima side subsector commander when you left on the
12 26th of December 1992, if you remember?
13 A. I think it was Pat Henneberry, but I would have to refer to my
15 Q. All right. Now, you mentioned your notes. Have you brought with
16 you a diary?
17 A. I have.
18 Q. Is it the case that you have not given the Office of the
19 Prosecutor a copy of your diary?
20 A. That is the case.
21 Q. Is that because you do not wish to do so?
22 A. It is.
23 Q. If you are permitted to consult your diary in order to check a
24 date or piece of information, would you be prepared to allow the Defence
25 to look at just that part of that entry that you used to refresh your
1 memory with the rest being covered?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. In any
4 case, since we are directly interested in this, the Prosecution knows that
5 we are horrified by detached exhibits without the context so we wouldn't
6 restrict ourself.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We are now on our way to question the witness. Let's
8 just first proceed, Mr. Ierace, and then, of course, if such questions
9 would arise, then, of course, you could oppose if you want to.
10 MR. IERACE:
11 Q. If you could read that question again on the screen in front of
12 you that I last asked, could you please answer it. It appears underneath
13 the 100 in the left-hand column and then along side the 3, underneath the
14 100. In other words, that no one would get to see anything other than
15 the specific piece of information which you used to refresh your memory?
16 A. That would be fine.
17 Q. Thank you for that.
18 Now, what instructions, if any, did you provide to your Lima side
19 UNMOs as to whether their role should be passive or active and whether
20 they should engage local commanders in dialogue?
21 A. Initially, on assuming my appointment, one of the other aspects of
22 operation that I wished to change was to instill in the military observers
23 an inclination to be active in their role rather than passive. One of the
24 effective methods of achieving that was to require them to actively seek
25 who the commanders were, what they were doing, and question them as to why
1 they were doing it.
2 Q. Did you have any view as to whether the Lima subsector commander
3 should engage the corps commander on the Lima side in direct oral
5 A. In that they were collocated, I would expect that he would do so.
6 Q. You referred earlier to your predecessor. Who was that?
7 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Gray from the Royal New Zealand Army.
8 Q. You also earlier referred to the airport agreement. Was that an
9 agreement which was the foundation for the role of the UNMOs in Sarajevo
10 or not?
11 A. Yes, it was.
12 Q. Do you know the date of that agreement? If not the exact date,
13 then perhaps the month?
14 A. I would -- from what I recall, I think it was September 1992.
15 Q. Incidentally, do you recall the date in September that you
16 commenced your duties as the Sarajevo SMO?
17 A. I hesitate to ask, but may I look at my diary?
18 MR. IERACE: If Mr. President allows you to do so. Might the
19 witness be allowed to do that, Mr. President, on the basis that I earlier
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, again, this is
23 a document that we haven't seen, that we will not have a right to see
24 except for a small piece of patchwork, depending on the Prosecution, and I
25 don't think that we can just have a couple of notes. We would rather hear
1 the whole piece of music.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mole, before going any further, could you explain
4 to the Court the reasons why you would not give your diary, which might
5 contain important information, to the Office of the Prosecutor? We have
6 had several witnesses who did, as a matter of fact. I don't know what
7 keeps you from doing it.
8 THE WITNESS: As I am sure you appreciate, a diary is a very
9 personal record of events. Those events will be represented in sometimes
10 emotional and sometimes nonemotional ways which opens your soul in a way
11 you wouldn't want others to read. For that reason, I think it would be
12 wiser if I kept it to myself. No more reason other than that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I can imagine that you wouldn't like to read everyone
14 the -- from the bottom of your soul. But if that would be limited to a
15 small number of people, I mean, we have possibilities of protecting
16 certain information. Because I fully do understand that you say, well,
17 it's sometimes emotional. But, of course, the Court would also perhaps be
18 interested in the nonemotional parts that might -- since it is a long time
19 ago, and the Court is aware that sometimes the memory was better at the
20 time when words were written than it is perhaps some 10 years later. So
21 it could be a source which could assist us in arriving at the truth. I am
22 not saying it does, but it might be. Therefore, that is the other side.
23 As you will understand, this Court is trying to come at the truth.
24 THE WITNESS: I understand fully. But since we are talking about
25 a date that I assumed an appointment in Sarajevo, I would suggest to you
1 that although I don't remember the exact date, it is hardly a contentious
2 issue to open the diary and see when I said I went to Sarajevo.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the issue raised by the Defence is that this
4 gives a fragmentary information on the events and not full information of
5 what would have been in your knowledge or had been within your knowledge.
6 But let's not at this moment argue on it.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President,
9 I have completely understood what the witness means. And if it is just a
10 date, from the side of the Defence, we agree. However, if later on we
11 have to examine other points, then the position of the Defence would be
13 JUDGE ORIE: So you reserve the right to respond to every single
14 issue --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am walking in the witness's
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, not being contested any more, Mr. Ierace, in
18 order to refresh his memory, the witness may consult his diary.
19 THE WITNESS: I took a convoy from Pale on the 15th of September
20 and arrived on the 16th of September, sir.
21 MR. IERACE:
22 Q. Thank you very much for that.
23 A. May I also correct something I said earlier on?
24 Q. By all means.
25 A. During the question you asked the date of the airport agreement
1 and whilst looking for the date that I arrived in Sarajevo, I noticed that
2 in the forms which have been submitted that the date of the airport
3 agreement was June 1992.
4 Q. When you refer to "the forms which have been submitted," I think
5 you pointed to copies of your statements; is that correct?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Now, earlier we mentioned the Corps Commander. First of all, what
8 was the name of the particular structure of the armed forces on the Lima
10 A. I referred to them as the Romanija Corps.
11 Q. Who was the commander of that Corps during your tenure as SMO?
12 A. Colonel and later Major General Galic.
13 Q. Did you have a routine which included regular meetings with
14 General Galic?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. How often?
17 A. I would go across to the Lima side many times during a week and
18 would always hope to see him on one or two occasions.
19 Q. When you say, "go across" was your office in the PTT building on
20 the Bosnian government side of the confrontation lines?
21 A. I am sorry, I assumed knowledge. Yes, I lived in the PTT building
22 within the city of Sarajevo.
23 Q. Indeed we have had evidence to that effect.
24 Now, when you typically met with General Galic, whereabouts
25 precisely did those meetings take place?
1 A. Within the Lukavica barracks, the Serb side had provided
2 accommodation for our UNMO headquarters and I habitually met Colonel Galic
3 within the same building.
4 Q. Was it in a particular room that you would typically meet him or
6 A. Often in the conference room.
7 Q. On those occasions that you met him, did you have the services of
8 an interpreter?
9 A. The UNMOs on the Lima side had the services of an interpreter and
10 it was that interpreter that we utilised for the meetings.
11 Q. Who employed that interpreter and what was the interpreter's name,
12 if you remember it?
13 A. From what I recall, she was an UN employee, but I am afraid I
14 can't recall her name.
15 Q. When you met with General Galic, typically, did he have his own
16 interpreter or not?
17 A. There was another individual who frequently attended those
18 meetings. His capacity wasn't, from my perception, that of an
19 interpreter. So the meeting relied on the interpreter that we provided.
20 Q. What was the name of that other individual?
21 A. Captain Indjic.
22 Q. What role did he perform from your perception by attending those
24 A. It is an interesting question which, as of now, I haven't a direct
25 answer to other than my personal feelings as to what he was doing.
1 Therefore, what I say is not fact, purely my own interpretation.
2 Q. Approximately on how many occasions that you met with
3 General Galic was Captain Indjic present?
4 A. Initially, when we had our first meetings he was present quite
5 often. In fact, one could probably say more often than not. His
6 attendance dropped off and became more infrequent as my tour proceeded.
7 Q. When he was present did he ever talk with General Galic?
8 A. Yes. There was consultation.
9 Q. Was that in English or another language?
10 A. It was in another language.
11 Q. Did he ever address you at any of those meetings?
12 A. He might have done. I don't remember specific occasions, but in
13 that my intention of being there was to consult with Colonel Galic, his
14 presence was somewhat irrelevant to me in that I would wish my
15 conversation to be directed at the primary purpose of my visit, and that
16 would be General Galic.
17 Q. On any of the occasions that you met General Galic, was he out of
19 A. Throughout the whole time I knew this individual, I never saw him
20 in uniform at all. He would attend the meetings, as I recall, wearing a
21 leather jacket and other civilian attire.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry to
23 interrupt the question, but there is a grammar problem. Here I am not
24 sure what he is referring when he says "he." Is he referring to the
25 general or to another person, Mr. Ierace? I am sorry to interrupt.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Page 106, line 24, on any of the occasions that you
2 met General Galic, was "he" out of uniform? So I take it that your
3 response was related to General Galic or am I wrong in understanding?
4 THE WITNESS: You are wrong, sir. The inference as I assumed was
5 that subject of the dress was the Captain, am I right?
6 MR. IERACE:
7 Q. I actually had in mind General Galic, but I understood your answer
8 to refer to Captain Indjic; is that correct?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. All right. On any of the occasions that you met General Galic,
11 was General Galic out of uniform?
12 A. Most of the times that we met, we were both in military uniform.
13 Q. All right.
14 Now, if you are able to answer the next question by a yes or no,
15 please do so. Did it strike you as odd that when you, the Senior Military
16 Observer, met with the Corps Commander that frequently the only other
17 person present, apart from the interpreter was an un-uniformed captain or
18 person of similar rank?
19 A. I would like to answer the question with a yes or no, but there is
20 precedent in our military that a senior officer will have an individual of
21 an appointment such as adjutant in company with him.
22 Q. Beyond that possibility, was there any other -- I withdraw that.
23 Therefore, assuming his role was similar to that of an adjutant are
24 you saying that would not be odd in your military experience?
25 A. His presence would not be odd. The point of issue is why he
1 wasn't in uniform. That I always found a little uncomfortable.
2 Q. Now, you mentioned that General Galic was promoted. Do you
3 remember approximately when that was?
4 A. I think, if I recall correctly, it was November 1992.
5 Q. I am going to ask you some questions directly or indirectly on the
6 issue of General Galic's degree of command and control over his
7 subordinates. During the period that you were Senior Military Observer,
8 do you recollect any military offensives by the Romanija Corps?
9 A. One in particular that I recall was the offensive in the area of
10 Otes which was on the west side of Sarajevo during the early days of
11 December 1992.
12 Q. Is Otes spelled O-t-e-s?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be provided a copy
15 of Exhibit P3704.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we
18 perhaps have two maps so that the General could follow, please.
19 MR. IERACE:
20 Q. Mr. Mole, do you recognise the map in front of you?
21 A. I will do when I turn it around, sir. I do.
22 Q. Did you provide this map to the OTP, meaning the Office of the
24 A. I did sir, yes.
25 Q. What does the map show?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- before we look at the map
4 and examine some questions, there are some questions that I would like to
5 ask the Prosecution, but I think that we should do it alas without the
6 presence of the witness because these are questions in relation not to the
7 map --
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...or you would
9 rather explain that as well in the absence of the witness?
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Because perhaps we are going
11 to have to raise some points that the witness is not supposed to know. I
12 am not sure yet, but I suppose we could do it before him
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...what you intend
14 to say, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, so if you say it has to be done now, and it has
15 to be done in the absence of the witness, I will ask the usher to escort
16 the witness out of the courtroom for a while.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. In order not to
18 waste time, our intervention is in relation to the admissibility of a
19 premarked map. So we don't know to which extent this has been done and so
21 MR. IERACE: I think I understand my learned colleague's concern
22 and I can assure him that issue does not apply in this instance. Perhaps
23 if he waits for the next two questions, he could then reconsider his
25 JUDGE ORIE: I could not follow you, so I first have to read it
1 JUDGE ORIE: Would you agree to wait for the next two questions
2 if --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] By the time it may be done by
4 then, Mr. President. I don't know. That might be too late.
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...the admission
6 into evidence is still to be decided so it is never too late for that.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, we agree on that
8 Mr. President, but in order to avoid coming to the consequence that
9 something is not being tendered, certain exhibits that are premarked, then
10 it is better not to do it at all
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you just escort the witness out of
12 the courtroom. But Mr. Mole, my I ask you to remain on standby.
13 THE WITNESS: My pleasure.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the witness will give evidence, I
16 anticipate, that he placed the confrontation line on this map at the time
17 that he was senior military officer. He copied the confrontation line
18 onto this map from other maps in the PTT building, that is, the evidence I
19 anticipate he will give. Therefore, it is not premarking in the same
20 sense as applied to the witness Kucanin and which caused considerable
21 concern to the Defence
22 JUDGE ORIE: Would the objection, nevertheless, stand Mr.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, Mr.
25 President. But another thing, Mr. Ierace, could you tell us what were the
1 two scales?
2 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear your last few words.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What were the two scales used?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Scale of the map, yes?
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Not only this one, but the
6 other one as well.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether you can tell it, but would that
8 cause any problem as we have numerous matters --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- and we know of at least a few of them, the scales,
11 which would allow us without any difficulty to --
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. I don't think so,
13 Mr. President, because I am being told that this was copied from another
14 map at the time --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand, Mr. Ierace, words that he, not put
16 it on a copying machine and copied the lines, but that he did put the same
17 lines on this map as he did put them before on another map; is that right?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I heard the same. And,
19 however, this is a problem we would have preferred, that the map, as it
20 existed in its origin, rather than a reproduction, a manual reproduction,
21 but still a reproduction of a map.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any other objection you would like to make
23 at this moment?
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, but we never know, Mr.
25 President, how this was carried out. Perhaps we can find out. But it is
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 a principle that we decided on, that we would not have premarked maps.
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...we had
3 one situation where we had to invite the witness to make new marks on a
4 map, but let me just confer.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: The Prosecution may continue to question the witness
7 on the basis of this map. Mr. Usher --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- may you escort the witness again into the
10 courtroom. Although, there may not be much time left, Mr. Ierace, because
11 we have to stop at 3.30 sharp because the courtroom will be used again at
12 4.00. Three minutes remaining.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 MR. IERACE:
15 Q. Mr. Mole, who drew the lines which appear on this map in purple?
16 A. I did.
17 Q. When did you place those lines on this map?
18 A. The map itself is a tourist map of Sarajevo and it was used for
19 me when I first arrived in Sarajevo so that I could orientate myself to
20 the events. It was also used as an operational map in operations room,
21 but clearly this edition has no key points marked upon it.
22 Q. When you say, "an operational map in operations room" do you mean
23 an UN operation room or some other operation room?
24 A. Within the PTT, UNPROFOR had an operations room and I had one
25 which was directed towards my command of military observers on both sides
1 of the confrontation line. This map was used in the latter context.
2 Q. And again I ask you: When did you place those lines on this map?
3 A. These lines were placed on the map representing the confrontation
4 lines of a date post 10th December 1992.
5 Q. Did you do it before or after you left Sarajevo on about the 26th
6 of December 1992?
7 A. Before I left.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I said we have to stop at 3.30 sharp.
9 So if it would just be one question, then okay, but otherwise, we will
10 have to interrupt.
11 Mr. Mole, since this courtroom will be used for another case for
12 the rest of the afternoon, we will have to adjourn now. We will adjourn
13 until tomorrow morning at 9.00. And you are supposed not to speak with
14 anyone about the testimony you gave in this court. "Anyone" means also
15 members of the Office of the Prosecutor. Yes. We will adjourn until
16 9.00 tomorrow morning.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my apologies. May I raise one matter
18 very briefly and that is that I would seek to interpose Witness W at 9.00
19 tomorrow morning and therefore this witness to return on Wednesday at
21 JUDGE ORIE: Since we will hear another witness who is available
22 tomorrow, and not on any other day, we will -- I would like to ask you to
23 come back Wednesday morning, same time, same courtroom. Yes. We will
24 adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
1 3.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
2 the 4th day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.