1 Thursday, 20 June 2000
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 I was informed that the Defence would like to address the
11 Chamber. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if it is something that should be dealt with
12 before we start with the next witness, please proceed, otherwise, I would
13 like you to wait until the witness has testified.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, it should
15 be done before the next witness. Also, it could be done after the
16 witness, but I propose to do a kind of grouping so that we -- so that we
17 gain time.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...after the next
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The second part will be done
21 after the witness, but before you decide on the question of the
22 transcripts, a decision need to be made.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I had some difficulties in following you.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You have difficulties?
25 JUDGE ORIE: You would like to address us in respect of the
1 transcript or --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There are two problems,
3 Mr. President. One will concern the witness testimony of this witness and
4 the second one will be the problem with the transcript.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So just on the following
7 witness --
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...if you could do
9 that in one or two minutes, then we can do it the same time.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. Mr.
11 President, in respect of the witness who is about to appear, it seems on
12 the basis of the statements that we have, this witness who will be called
13 to testify on the incidents of shelling, that is on the Markale market
14 incident. The Defence is in a critical position because it would have
15 liked to ask a whole line of questioning in respect of the manipulations
16 that we called either in the press or in the manipulations of the pieces,
17 and I am talking about the pieces, exhibits, that concern Markale, but we
18 don't know what your decision will be. Because you know that there has
19 been some time we have asked for your Chamber to pass a decision to
20 reject, to exclude, these exhibits.
21 Because we do not have your decision and because we don't know
22 what it will be, we don't know whether we should waste time, perhaps
23 uselessly, on a matter that will have no sense if you are going to reject
24 these exhibits since they have all been manipulated. That is a practical
1 JUDGE ORIE: The exhibits you are talking about were the -- could
2 you --
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am talking
5 about all the medical pieces that may have been subjected to "grattage" or
6 any kind of manipulation, and we are in a delicate position if we want to
7 respect the time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We will give you -- as far as the "grattage" is
9 concerned, we will let you know exactly what exhibits, what decision will
10 be taken by the Chamber. We will do that after the first break. We will
11 start with the examination-in-chief.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Can I go
13 about another matter or shall I go on -- do it later? Thank you very
15 Now, in respect of the transcript, Mr. President, we gave it a
16 fair bit of thought and we established that as far as the yellow pads are
17 concerned, and I believe that the yellow pads will not do, and therefore I
18 believe that, on the part of the Defence, there is a strong will to limit
19 ourselves to the essential. The two transcripts should be equivalent,
20 must be equivalent to each other, and both parties should be careful of
22 Yesterday, you saw that we really essentially intervened when
23 there were things that didn't match in a flagrant way, and the reason why
24 we seem to be doing it more, it is purely for linguistic reasons, but
25 really the Defence doesn't mind if Prosecution has another polyglot on
1 their side who will be doing this work.
2 Another thing, Mr. President, it seems almost impossible that
3 this work is done at the end of hearing, for the simple reason that we
4 would actually waste more time, lose more time, because we would have to
5 return to something that happened one or two hours previously. We would
6 have to refresh the memory of a witness, or perhaps even of the Judges or
7 the two parties. It would be a lot wiser to be done when it has to be
8 done at that time. But, obviously, we will try and keep to the essential.
9 I do not see any other solutions, and I am very sorry about it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I accept that my friend believes that
12 his interjections yesterday were only on important matters. The fact is,
13 there were 12 interjections, which is unsatisfactory from the point of
14 view of the flow of evidence. What I propose does not deprive him of the
15 opportunity of making his important corrections. It simply relates to the
16 time in which it is done. And my submission is that when the questioner
17 and the witness in the box speak the same language, then there is no
18 reason why the corrections cannot be made at the end of that day's
20 Where the witness speaks a different language to the questioner,
21 and secondly, where the interjection relates to the translation of the
22 question to the witness's language, in those circumstances, it would be
23 appropriate, in my respectful submission, for the correction to be made on
24 the spot. But, otherwise, they could wait.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace, what about problems in the
1 translation of the answers because if, for example, the witness speaks
2 French and if the translation into English would be confusing, then would
3 that not be a reason? Otherwise, you might be deprived from a proper
4 understanding of what the witness testified about.
5 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, to the extent that that concern
6 would reflect adversely on the Prosecution, the Prosecution's
7 understanding, I would still be prepared for those corrections to be made
8 at the end of the day's testimony, or at least at the end of the witness's
9 testimony, rather than during the testimony. It is a balancing
10 act. And when one compared the losses, I think that the impact which the
11 present practice is having on examination-in-chief is so severe that the
12 course I respectfully propose is preferable.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. Just on the
17 issue raised by Mr. Ierace of the questioning in the same language,
18 examination of the same language, I understand his position but I think I
19 would like him to understand our position.
20 If we have to make notes -- if we have to take notes, if we have
21 to write down what happened and spend time in doing that, even if it is
22 just doesn't seem a lot of time, that would imply for the Defence the
23 waste of -- losing concentration regarding the transcript and losing the
24 topic itself. You know that this is -- I am the only one who is doing
25 this particular task here on the Defence Bench, and if I don't do it
1 immediately, I will lose my concentration of what is happening at the time
2 that it is happening.
3 So I don't think that this solution is acceptable, either, which I
4 regret, of course.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is very much concerned about both the
7 aspects: First, the interruption of the testimony of the witness but, of
8 course, also on the language problems. Let me first make clear that the
9 Chamber admires the work done by the interpreters. Nevertheless, it is a
10 task I would not easily perform. And that means that if you have to
11 translate for a long period of time, it is unavoidable that now and then,
12 especially when we are talking about all kind of very technical details
13 and put in sometimes a very specific meaning in words, that now and then
14 there might be some translations that could be subject of remarks in
15 respect of whether this is exactly the translation of what the speaker
16 intended to say.
17 So it has got nothing to do with criticism to the interpreters.
18 We admire your job but, nevertheless, this is part of the reality of life.
19 After having said this, if for the understanding of the question it is
20 necessary to interfere with the translation of that question, it
21 can be done when the question has been put to the witness. If there is
22 any other matter which is really urgent which would not allow to wait
23 until the end of the day, the observation can be made after the witness
24 has responded to the question.
25 But this should be the exception. Even if it is sometimes a
1 nuisance that we have to write down things and that we lose concentration,
2 it nevertheless should be done unless it is really of such an urgency that
3 we cannot wait until the end of the day, and then it should be done after
4 the witness has answered the question. So if it is about the translation
5 of the question, it can be done immediately. If it is really, really
6 urgent, but not in relation to the translation of the question itself, it
7 can be done after the witness has answered the question, and all other
8 observations should be made by the end of the day.
9 You have your own lists. So you inform me then, well, let us say
10 five minutes before we stop, and say, "page so and so, line so and so,
11 translation was this; should be in my view, that." This is the ruling and
12 that -- yes.
13 Then, Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to call its next
15 MR. IERACE: We are, Mr. President.
16 I call General Sir Michael Rose.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. In the meantime,
19 Mr. President, does this mean that we will have to stop 10 minutes before
20 the end of the session in order to wash the transcript, so to speak?
21 JUDGE ORIE: It depends on how long your list is. If you just
22 have one remark, it can be done in one minute. If you have written down 12
23 observations, perhaps you can do it in six or seven minutes. Just ask me.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 [The witness entered court]
2 WITNESS: MICHAEL ROSE
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.
4 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
5 JUDGE ORIE: General Rose, I presume?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of
8 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you
9 will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. May I
10 invite you to make that declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
12 whole truth and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. You will
14 first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.
15 Mr. Ierace, are you ready?
16 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
17 Examined by Mr. Ierace:
18 Q. Good morning, General.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. General, is your nationality English?
21 A. It is, but it is described as British.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is not to do with the
25 transcript for once, this is a translation -- this is a rule, I think,
1 whether a witness is testifying with or without notes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: There is nothing on his desk, so there was no reason
3 at this moment to interfere.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There are notes before the
5 witness. That is the reason why I am intervening.
6 JUDGE ORIE: General, before you would consult any notes or any
7 writings, would you please indicate that you need to do so and then we
8 will decide whether we will permit you to do so. Because your testimony,
9 well, should be first from your memory.
10 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. General, during your military career, did you have active service
13 in various regions, including the Middle East and the Falkland Islands?
14 A. I did.
15 Q. Were you knighted in 1994?
16 A. I was.
17 Q. On the 5th of January, 1994, were you appointed the commander of
18 the United Nations Protection Force in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you take up that position on the 23 of January, 1994?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were your headquarters based in Sarajevo?
23 A. They were.
24 Q. Was your predecessor in that position Lieutenant General
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who were your chiefs -- I'll withdraw that. Did you --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.
4 But to facilitate the task of the Prosecution, I think Defence is allowing
5 leading questions. But if we are going this fast, then we are
6 going to have transcript problems. I think that the Prosecution should
7 bear this in mind as well.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace. The speed is such that both transcript
9 and translation might have some problems. Would you please slow down a
11 MR. IERACE:
12 Q. Did you hold that position until the 23 of January, 1995?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. Who were your chiefs of staff in that period?
15 A. The initial one was Brigadier, or Colonel at the time, Gordon, I
16 think, and the next one was Van Baal, who was there for most of the time.
17 Q. Was the head of Sector Sarajevo, Brigadier General Soubirou?
18 A. It was.
19 Q. Now, having arrived in Sarajevo, did you set about having meetings
20 with the relevant political and military heads of the warring factions?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. Did you first meet with the relevant heads on the Serb side on the
23 30th of January?
24 A. As far as my memory serves me, that is the date I met them.
25 Q. Whereabouts did that meeting take place?
1 A. I think there were two meetings: One was in Pale with Karadzic
2 and Koljevic and Krajisnik, I think, and the next one was with Mladic,
3 General Mladic, later on.
4 Q. Were you accompanied by anyone at those two meetings on that day?
5 A. I would have been accompanied by the military assistant Colonel
6 Shadbolt and the interpreter, Captain Ilic.
7 Q. Did you also from time to time during meetings meet with these
8 people in the company of Viktor Andreev?
9 A. He usually accompanied us as the United Nations authority.
10 Q. Was he a UN civil advisor?
11 A. He was.
12 Q. Were you also sometimes accompanied by Sergio De Mello?
13 A. Yes, Sergio De Mello was responsible for Sarajevo and Bosnia.
14 Q. And was he the UN head of Civil Affairs at that stage?
15 A. He was.
16 Q. Now, at that first meeting with Dr. Karadzic and later General
17 Mladic, what issues, if any, did you discuss in relation to the part of
18 the conflict in Sarajevo, if any?
19 A. We would have been discussing the need for the ceasefire and the
20 demilitarisation of the area, and also the need to sustain the flow of aid
21 through to the people who needed it, who, of course, were not only the
22 Bosnian Muslim, but also the Croats and the Serbs as well.
23 Q. Were there any particular aspects of the armed conflict in
24 Sarajevo that caused you particular concern?
25 A. The whole city had been reduced to a state of siege and, of
1 course, the ambitions of the United Nations were to ensure that the
2 shelling and the sniping and shooting in and around Sarajevo was halted
3 and that the -- there was freedom of movement in and out of that city.
4 Q. Did that shelling and sniping impact at all on the civilian
5 population in Sarajevo?
6 A. Inevitably.
7 Q. Was that a topic that you ever raised with General Mladic or
8 Dr. Karadzic?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I am listening to the French channel.
10 They really have difficulties in their --
11 MR. IERACE: I will slow down, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 Q. Do you remember when it was that you first raised that issue, that
13 is, the shelling and sniping of civilians in Sarajevo, with the Serb
14 political and military leadership?
15 A. I guess it would have been on the 30th of January, the day we
16 first met them, because it was the prevailing problem facing the United
17 Nations and the people of Bosnian.
18 Q. You said that you raised that issue frequently with those
19 individuals. What were the range of responses that, firstly, General
20 Mladic gave to your complaints?
21 A. Well, the general reply was that they were responding to attacks
22 by the Bosnian Muslim army and that that was their method of responding.
23 They didn't have the same level of infantry available to them. The
24 Bosnian army were continually attacking across the line of contact, and
25 their response was shelling.
1 Q. In your protest to them on that topic, did you make clear that
2 your concern was deliberate or indiscriminate targeting of civilians by
3 shelling and sniping?
4 A. We certainly raised the targeting of civilians as the subject.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President.
7 You are listening, like I am, the French booth. But the previous answer
8 of the witness has not been normally interpreted, that is the fact that
9 the Bosniak army continued its attacks across the contact lines. It is
10 very important.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you could perhaps repeat your last question and
12 could the witness repeat his answer. That would be --
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And I think that if the
14 witness could just speak a little more slowly, it will be easier.
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...look at the screen
16 in front of you and as soon as the cursor stops moving, that means that
17 everyone has been able to translate or to prepare the transcript. And
18 only then answer the question.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have to object to the
23 question, but I have to say that the speed with which the questions are
24 being asked, and if I am continuing to do this task of a scribe, I am
25 going to have to intervene. I apologise, General. But the question asked
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 by Mr. Ierace, implying that there was a voluntary element, that is a
2 deliberate element, while this witness didn't even indicate this, seems to
3 me that it is an unacceptable question since it contains leading elements.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will be happy to withdraw the
5 question and rephrase it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will be very happy to have
8 Mr. Ierace do this. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think it is enough when I
10 permitted Mr. Ierace to rephrase the question and there is no need for any
11 further comment to that.
12 MR. IERACE:
13 Q. General, you told us that you arrived in Sarajevo on the 23rd of
14 January and that it is consistent with your recollection that your first
15 meeting took place on the 30th of January. In that first week, did you
16 form any view as to whether or not civilians in Sarajevo were being
17 deliberately or indiscriminately targeted by -- in the form of shelling
18 and sniping, by forces on the Serb military side of the confrontation
19 line? And please wait a minute before you answer that question.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
22 Mr. Ierace should clarify his question, make it more specific. We know
23 that in Sarajevo there were areas, that is Serb areas, that were shelled
24 by some sides. Could Mr. Ierace -- does Mr. Ierace mean that that would
25 be all sides in Sarajevo that -- including the Serbs that were shelled by
1 the Muslims in an indiscriminate way or does Mr. Ierace also include other
2 parts of the town, and could he say which ones, please?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this took you five lines to make
4 this comment. You could have said: "Does the question relate to the
5 whole territory of Sarajevo or certain parts of it?" That is one line and
6 it would be perfectly enough.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
8 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. General, would you mind perhaps re-reading that question on the
10 transcript in front of you.
11 A. It was certainly the general view of the time and I was only
12 briefed on those lines that there was indiscriminate shelling of civilians
13 and a number of -- by the Serbs and a number of incidents which occurred
14 immediately prior to my arrival and shortly afterwards supported that
15 view. But it is also the case that of course shelling was going the other
16 way from time to time as well against the Serbs in places like Grbavica
17 and others.
18 Q. What was the scale of shelling in Sarajevo in that first week, in
19 that first period when you arrived, in terms of approximate number of
20 shells that were impacting in Sarajevo?
21 A. It used to be as high as 1500, 2.000 shells a day in Sarajevo
22 which, of course, meant going both ways, not just one way.
23 Q. What about the sniping? In general terms, what was the level of
24 sniping? And perhaps you could respond to this question in terms of how
25 often would you hear the sound of small-arms fire and run the risk of
1 being sniped in that first period?
2 A. It was prevalent.
3 Q. Coming back to the question I asked you about five minutes ago,
4 when you raised this issue with General Mladic, did you make clear that
5 your concern was the deliberate or indiscriminate targeting of civilians,
6 quite separate from unavoidable civilian casualties as part of legitimate
7 armed conflict?
8 A. Certainly, we would have raised that.
9 Q. Now, the answer or the response that you have told us you
10 received frequently, and I think it was that it was justified by him on
11 the basis of they were responding to attacks by the Bosnian government
12 forces. Is that correct?
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that is a
14 leading question.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it is a permissible leading question,
16 in my respectful submission, because I invited the witness to confirm that
17 that was evidence he gave a few minutes ago.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.
19 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. I will re-read the
20 question, General.
21 Q. Now, the answer or the response you told us that you received
22 frequently, and I think it was, "It was justified by him, on the basis of
23 they were responding to attacks by the government forces." Is that
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. Did you form any view in your mind as to whether that was an
2 acceptable justification?
3 A. It was very difficult to say at that time, shortly after my
4 arrival, whether that was justifiable or not. Certainly, there was
5 subsequent evidence that Bosnian government forces would deliberately
6 place their firing positions in areas such as the Kosevo hospital in
7 order to attract responses from the Bosnian Serb army in that area. But
8 that was later on. At that time, the week of my arrival, it was a very
9 confused situation.
10 Q. On the 4th of February, which I think would be within the first
11 fortnight of your arrival, was there an incident involving a series of
12 mortar explosions in Dobrinja?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Can you tell us about that?
15 A. Well, there was people forming up to collect United Nations
16 rations. I think it was in the afternoon. And four mortar shells fell in
17 this crowd and a number of people were killed and injured. I think six or
18 ten people were killed and about 28 injured.
19 Q. Were any steps taken to examine the crater impact sites and
20 ascertain, if possible, the direct and source of fire of those four mortar
21 shells that you remember?
22 A. Certainly, crater analysis was performed almost immediately and
23 the evidence from that, of course, one can't be certain in these
24 situations. It is a very inexact science. The evidence pointed quite
25 clearly that it had been the Bosnian Serb army who had fired these shells
1 and clearly targeted the civilians queuing up for these rations.
2 Q. The following day, was there -- before I go on to the following
3 day, what steps, if any --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel and the witness please make
6 MR. IERACE: Yes, I will do that.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If I have to take notes as you
8 have asked me, I will never be able to do this, because I think the
9 Prosecution is trying even to accelerate. I don't think that this is
10 normal. Thank you.
11 MR. IERACE:
12 Q. What steps, if any, did you take by way of a protest following
13 your receipt of the results of the crater analysis?
14 A. My memory says that we would certainly have sent a message of
15 protest and demand of an explanation to the headquarters in Pale.
16 Q. Does your memory serve your sufficiently to indicate whether you
17 ever received a reply to that protest?
18 A. I don't remember receiving a specific reply to that.
19 Q. Was there another incident the following day?
20 A. There was the incident in the marketplace where a similar group of
21 civilians, this time in the market, were targeted by somebody who fired a
22 single mortar bomb on this occasion, and I think 50 plus people were
23 killed and a hundred or more injured.
24 Q. Did you take steps in relation to that incident to carry out a
25 technical examination of the mortar impact site?
1 A. We did. And there definitely was one mortar bomb falling. It is
2 difficult to work out the direction from which it came and also with any
3 accuracy, and also the distance. And so there was a general analysis
4 done, but it was impossible to say precisely from where that mortar bomb
5 had been fired.
6 Q. Was the investigation, as you recollect it, able nevertheless to
7 establish a direction of fire?
8 A. I think it came from the north-east, if I remember.
9 Q. And when you say that it was impossible to say precisely from
10 where that mortar bomb had been fired, is it the position that having
11 established the direction and having observed that the direction traversed
12 the confrontation lines, that the source of fire may have been
13 on either side?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Who established the -- who set the terms of reference for the
17 A. There were two investigations, an immediate one which would have
18 been established by Sector Sarajevo, General Soubirou, and there was a
19 subsequent one because of the importance and significance of this very
20 major attack. That was ordered, I think, by Zagreb, and an independent
21 team came and did an analysis. But both came up with the same conclusion,
22 that it was impossible to say from where this bomb had been fired.
23 Indeed, there was a theory that it had been dropped by hand from a
24 nearby building.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have to go
1 back to the previous question. I really apologise because I am doing this
2 belatedly, but this has to do with a question which is mentioning the fact
3 that the mortar would have crossed the confrontation lines, and I am
4 afraid that question was a leading question because the witness had not
5 before brought in these elements into his answer. Thank you.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, indeed, it was a leading question, and
7 I would have thought the considerable body of evidence as to the results
8 of that report, that that was hardly a controversial issue as to what the
9 report said.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. IERACE: I should add --
12 JUDGE ORIE: If we look at what we know about confrontation lines
13 that were, I would say around the city, or is this in dispute?
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If that is not in dispute, then the question might be
16 not very useful, because whatever direction you choose, the direction
17 always crosses a confrontation line. If you take a circle and you take one
18 point from within that circle, whatever direction you chose, it will
19 always cross the confrontation line.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. The problem is,
21 Mr. President, is that we have here a plural, the confrontation "lines,"
22 and this confrontation lines would mean that if we had crossed several
23 lines, that means that we have crossed the Serb and the Muslim lines and,
24 therefore, that can only mean one thing, that this had gone from the Serb
25 side. It is an "S" as in plural and that gives a determining sense
1 meaning to this.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We are talking about the direction. If you do not
3 know any distance, we have the previous answer of the witness, that you
4 say if you can't establish the distance, then a direction as such, which
5 is an arrow, will always cross a line if it is within a circle, and
6 whether that a double line or a single line or whether it is from
7 inside or outside the circle is not answered by that question.
8 THE WITNESS: I think I might be able to help. Probably a single
9 time the confrontation line because, of course, you have two sides --
10 JUDGE ORIE: It was part of the question and not of your answer.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
12 think that the thing wasn't very clear in the French transcript, and this
13 is what happens in problems with the transcript.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
16 MR. IERACE:
17 Q. General, you were saying that there were two investigations,
18 General Soubirou had ordered the first, and the terms of reference or,
19 rather, the -- General Soubirou had ordered the first and given the
20 importance and significance of this very major attack, to use your words,
21 Zagreb ordered a second one which was carried out by an independent team
22 that came from outside and did an analysis. You said that both
23 investigations arrived at the same conclusion.
24 You said that there was an idea that it had been dropped by hand
25 from a nearby building. Did that theory find favour with either of the
1 two investigations?
2 A. No.
3 Q. In relation to the nature of the investigations, tell us something
4 of the terms of reference to this extent: Did they go beyond a technical
5 examination of the crater impact site?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were they the only investigations carried out by the UN, the one
8 ordered by General Soubirou, and then the second one where the terms --
9 the second one that was ordered from Zagreb?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. All right. Now, can you tell us something about indeed the impact
12 that this incident had on perhaps the whole war, but certainly, the war in
14 A. It created an opportunity for progress towards peace, and the
15 people were so horrified by what had happened, there was a major
16 initiative launched to bring a halt to the fighting, which certainly
17 proved successful as far as Sarajevo was concerned in that both sides
18 on the 9th, 10th of February agreed to halt the fighting in and around
19 Sarajevo, to withdraw their heavy weapons and to open up certain routes
20 for civilian aid convoys. And that transformed the whole of the situation
21 in Bosnia which, up to then, had been one of decline and deterioration.
22 And this was the first hope people had of peace and, indeed, Sarajevo
23 started to slowly return to normality.
24 Q. Can you tell us something in which the way that manifested the
25 return to normality in that initial post-Markale period? How did it
1 impact, for instance, on the daily lives of the civilians of Sarajevo?
2 A. It was possible to repair the electricity lines, the water supply
3 was restored in many areas. Civil aid convoys and, indeed, commercial
4 convoys were run in and out of Sarajevo and there was some movement of
5 civilians across the line of conflict as well. Indeed, there was a weekly
6 bus that ran to Zenica from Sarajevo across the battle line so that the
7 people can go and visit their relatives.
8 Q. The former Markale, if I can refer to it that way, would one see
9 civilians, day or night, wandering the streets at a walking pace, sitting
10 at cafes outside, doing that sort of thing?
11 A. Absolutely not. The danger of shelling and sniping was too great.
12 Q. And after Markale?
13 A. After Markale, that started to happen.
14 Q. What about the trams in that immediately period before Markale,
15 were they running?
16 A. They were not running but, again, with the restoration of the
17 electricity supply and the halting of fighting in and around Sarajevo, it
18 was possible to restore the tram service in due course.
19 Q. Again in that initial period, having regard to your last few
20 answers, was it the case that the sniping, firstly, had almost completely
21 fallen away in those first few days?
22 A. No. Nothing ends immediately in a confused civil war situation,
23 but certainly the sniping died down to a very low level indeed, although
24 there was always the odd shot being taken --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last question? We
1 lost him.
2 THE WITNESS: But it was not a thing which had sufficient effect
3 to stop the slow restoration of normality.
4 MR. IERACE:
5 Q. What about the shelling --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, could the witness please repeat
7 the last question? The French booth apologise.
8 JUDGE ORIE: General, I thought you would have heard it, the
9 request by the interpreters. I don't know what channel you are listening
11 THE WITNESS: I didn't hear the interpreters.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would take channel 4, which is the
13 English channel, that means that there is no translation at all, you would
14 have heard that the interpreters asked you to repeat the -- I take it the
15 last answer. That was the answer starting with: "Nothing ends
16 immediately in a confused civil war situation but certainly the sniping
17 died down to a very low level indeed, although there was always the odd
18 shot --
19 THE WITNESS: Being taken. It was not at a sufficient level to
20 prevent the slow return to normality which started to occur at that
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Ierace, the next question was about
23 the shelling and that is where the interpreters intervened. So could you
24 please repeat that question.
25 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President.
1 Q. What observations would you make in terms of pre-Markale and
2 post-Markale in respect of shelling?
3 A. It halted completely. The agreement that was arrived at required
4 the withdrawal of all heavy weapons from a 20 kilometre [Realtime
5 transcript read in error "millimetre"] circle around Sarajevo centre,
6 which I think was the Bridge of Friendship and Peace that crossed the
7 river between Grbavica and the main part of the city. And the Bosnian
8 government forces were required to withdraw all their heavy weapons into
9 the barracks within the city and not use them. And that more or less was
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that is millimetres, kilometre. Yes.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is an important
13 information. Thank you.
14 MR. IERACE:
15 Q. Did the fact that the sniping, to a large extent, and the shelling
16 entirely cease following the decisions made by the military commanders in
17 the wake of Markale suggest anything to you as to the degree of command
18 and control that the military leadership on all sides of the warring
19 factions exercised?
20 A. Yes, it showed that there was an absolute --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.
22 If I have to intervene after the questions, like you said, then really we
23 need to have time. The French booth, I don't think, interpreted. The
24 question was also related to sniping.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that is a matter of translation. You could
1 have --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And it is an error on my
3 part. I apologise.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...at the end of the
5 day. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
6 Would you please be more careful, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it seems that as a result of
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin's objection, that the interpreters were not able to
9 complete the witness's answer.
10 Q. General, if you need refresh your memory as to the question,
11 perhaps you could read it on the screen. You will see that your answer
12 was not completely recorded. Would you mind please repeating your answer?
13 A. Yes. The halting of the shelling and the almost but total halting
14 of the sniping at that time showed that there was a total and absolute
15 control on both sides of the military machine.
16 Q. Now, as part of this new preparedness to cooperate with the UN,
17 were there some access routes established which became known as "blue
19 A. There were.
20 Q. Could you tell us what the "blue routes" were? What was the
21 nature of a blue route?
22 A. The nature of a blue route is that these were routes which the UN
23 aid convoys could use, without hindrance, to deliver aid in and out of
25 Q. Now, over the ensuing weeks, what happened in terms of progress
1 in Sarajevo, that is in relation to the part of the conflict that took
2 place in Sarajevo and perhaps in terms of regression?
3 A. Well, there was a general improvement in the security situation
4 in and around Sarajevo which lasted until mid-September, when the Bosnian
5 government forces broke the ceasefire in a very major way, hence started
6 to decline again. Now, up to then, there had been issues from time to
7 time where incidents had occurred, sniping incidents, and that had all
8 been raised and an effort was made to bring about an anti-sniping treaty
9 or agreement. But that would seem to be always requiring trade-offs in
10 some other area and was very hard to achieve.
11 Q. In relation to the anti-sniping agreement, was that signed
12 eventually on the 14th of August, 1994?
13 A. That sounds about right.
14 Q. And I presume the Defence has no objection to leading as to the
15 terms of the anti-sniping agreement. I imagine that is common ground.
16 Did the anti-sniping agreement --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't have interpretation,
18 Mr. President. I do not -- I did not hear Mr. Ierace's question. Thank
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] The question was whether there was
21 an objection to the contents of the anti-sniping project.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Ierace be more
23 specific as to which project of agreement? Could he perhaps tell us which
24 agreement is he talking about?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you read the English
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 transcript, you would see that it is the agreement of the 14th of August,
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If this is the one signed by
4 Mr. Milovanovic, then there is no objection.
5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, I am very grateful.
6 Q. Did that agreement require the warring factions to cease sniping
7 activities against military personnel, civilians, and UN personnel in the
8 region of Sarajevo?
9 A. It did.
10 Q. Now, over what period of time did those negotiations leading up to
11 the signing of the agreement, take place, and just approximately?
12 A. A matter of months.
13 Q. And who did you deal with on the Serb army side in those
14 negotiations, both yourself and your immediate subordinates?
15 A. The general relationship between the UN headquarters in Sarajevo
16 and the Bosnian Serb army was the highest level achieved between me and
17 General Mladic, who was supported by his aide, Tolimir - Colonel Tolimir,
18 I think he was at the time - and also the Chief of Staff, Milovanovic,
19 General Milovanovic. There were other people who would -- and obviously,
20 General Galic had a part to play, although he did not seem to me to have
21 the overriding ability for decision making. That was always held higher
22 up the chain of command.
23 So the main negotiations were usually, in terms of Bosnia-wide and
24 sometimes in terms of Sarajevo, decision making was achieved between
25 General Mladic and me. Although sometimes the documents were signed by
1 the people, General Gvero, who was another one who was involved on the
2 Bosnian Serb army side.
3 Q. All right. Now, did you form any views to whether the bare fact
4 that the side --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I apologise. I have to
6 intervene. A whole sentence has not been interpreted in the French
7 transcript. I have to say from "General Gvero who was involved on the
8 Bosnian Serb army side," this has not been interpreted and I think the
9 French booth will agree with this.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I will change to the French channel again to keep a
11 closer eye on what happens.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.
13 MR. IERACE:
14 Q. General, did you form any view as to whether the bare fact that
15 the parties at a senior military level were negotiating the terms of the
16 cessation of sniping against civilians indicated anything to their belief
17 as to their ability to control the sniping, in other words, to turn it
19 A. Yes, they had the ability to turn it off for certain. But
20 equally, they were not the principles themselves. It was the politicians
21 who very often took part in what were basically military discussions, but
22 nevertheless there was always a political aspect. And, therefore, you
23 would have some like Krajisnik who would be present at these discussions
24 on the one side, or Muratovic on the other.
25 Q. Now what about the other part played by what one might
1 call "paramilitaries," and in particular on the side of the confrontation
2 lines that were controlled by the Bosnian Serb army? Were there any --
3 firstly, in your view, were there such forces?
4 A. There were.
5 Q. And in your view, was there ever any demonstrated ability on the
6 part of the regular Bosnian Serb army to control the paramilitary when
7 they wanted to?
8 A. Yes. There was a group of people, mercenaries, we thought, that
9 were positioned on the Jewish cemetery on the Bosnian Serb side and who
10 did not seem to accept the terms of the agreement to halt the shelling and
11 sniping in and around Sarajevo. And after some effort had been made by
12 the UN, the Bosnian Serbs finally brought into Sarajevo, into Grbavica, an
13 element which we thought were probably regular Yugoslav troops to go and
14 deal with these people, which they duly did.
15 Q. And, therefore, was the Jewish cemetery a source of fire during
16 your period in Sarajevo?
17 A. It always remained a dangerous place.
18 Q. When you say though that they duly did, what did they actually do
19 and what did they achieve by their action?
20 A. I think they re-established a chain of command which maybe had
21 been weakened by the existence of these mercenaries.
22 Q. Approximately when was that action by the army forces?
23 A. I guess about a month after the agreement had been made.
24 Q. That is the anti-sniping agreement?
25 A. No, the original agreement in the 9th or 10th of February.
1 Q. 1994?
2 A. 1994. So maybe March they would have dealt with these
4 Q. All right. Again in terms of highlights in terms of progress, was
5 there some progress with the Grbavica bridge?
6 A. Yes. It was possible to open up the bridge and to move certainly
7 personnel across, civilian as well as military, the UN military, that is.
8 And also some supplies moved over there.
9 Q. Do you recall the month that the bridge was reopened?
10 A. I think it must have been in February of 1994.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down in the
12 questions and the answers --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I see that the interpreters have even no time to
14 take a breath, Mr. Ierace.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is fourth
16 or fifth time that this problem is -- but I cannot take notes. I cannot
17 take notes.
18 MR. IERACE: I will --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace should slow down, and when he does - I
20 asked him several times - there is no further use to explain that it is
21 difficult for you as well. The Chamber understands.
22 MR. IERACE:
23 Q. You told us earlier that the trams were not running before
24 Markale. At some stage after Markale, did they recommence operating?
25 A. They did.
1 Q. Again, do you recall approximately when that was?
2 A. It would have taken about a month to restore electricity and to
3 repair the trams and get them going again, so maybe by April they were
5 Q. Did the trams have any particular symbolic significance, in your
6 view, to the view that the civilians of Sarajevo themselves would have in
7 terms of hope for ultimate peace?
8 A. I think that the restoration of the tram service gave the people
9 of Sarajevo hope that peace would be restored and that they could live
11 Q. Now, on the other side of the coin, so as to speak, during the
12 time that you were in Sarajevo, were there any incidents that came to
13 your attention in terms of reports, investigations conducted by the UN,
14 which suggested that forces on the side of the confrontation lines
15 controlled by Bosnian government forces had deliberately targeted
16 civilians within the confrontation lines?
17 A. There was certainly some suspicion, but before I arrived --
18 JUDGE ORIE: I have to ask you to wait until the cursor stops
20 THE WITNESS: There was certainly some suspicion before I arrived
21 in Sarajevo that -- and allegations had appeared in the media, and there
22 was certainly suspicions that that was happening after I arrived.
23 What was certain is that the Bosnian government forces would,
24 from time to time, fire at the Serbs, at particular moments of political
25 importance, in order to draw back fire on to Sarajevo so that the Bosnian
1 government could demonstrate the continuing plight of the people in
3 Q. I think in that regard you mentioned Kosevo hospital?
4 A. Certainly they were firing, a Bosnian -- neither side totally
5 respected the withdrawal of heavy weapons and hid some within that 20
6 kilometre circle.
7 The Bosnian government forces had, I think, three tanks and some
8 other heavy weapons which they kept hidden in a tunnel and that would --
9 they would bring these out from time to time, particularly after the
10 breakdown of the ceasefire in September, and fire at the Bosnian Serbs in
11 order to attract fire back. And usually, they positioned their tanks or
12 mortars in and around sensitive areas, such as close to the UN
13 headquarters in by the hospital, by a school.
14 Q. Were steps taken on those occasions to complain to the appropriate
15 political authorities and military authorities on the Bosnian government
17 A. All the time protests were made, mainly to Mr. Ganic, who seemed
18 to head up the military operations on the Bosnian government side.
19 Q. In relation to sniping, did you ever have occasion to see any of
20 the sniping weaponry that was deployed by either side in Sarajevo?
21 A. Certainly I saw on one occasion a Bosnian government sniper who
22 was a young boy carrying, I think, a Simonov rifle with a telescopic sight
23 close to the Bridge of Friendship and Peace, coming out of a building.
24 Q. Is Simonov spelled S-i-m-o-n-o-v?
25 A. I think so. Both sides were sniping at each other.
1 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that completes the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ierace.
6 Is the Defence -- no, I think we first then should have the break
7 because you were asking us a decision on the -- on the documents.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] On one hand, Mr. President.
9 On the other hand, bearing in mind of the new case law of your Chamber
10 and the time that I needed to jot down remarks, we needed to confer with
11 General Galic, therefore, we are now not ready to proceed with the
12 cross-examination of this witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest then that we have an early break for half
14 an hour, and Mr. Ierace, you wanted to --
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I just rise to my feet to observe that
16 we have made excellent progress in examination-in-chief. There isn't
17 another witness to called today so if Mr. Piletta-Zanin wants more time
18 and it suits the Trial Chamber, there would be no objection from the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. How much time would you need,
21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will ask this question.
23 Just a moment. We will need time until 11.00, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Since the examination-in-chief took 55 minutes, if we
25 would start at 11.00, that would mean that the Defence can be expected to
1 conclude its cross-examination before the next break then; that is at
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What will be the time of the
4 next break?
5 JUDGE ORIE: If we start again at 11.00, that would be at 12.30.
6 Yes. Then we will adjourn until 11.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The Defence has asked that the Chamber would give a
10 decision on what is called the "grattage." It is about the document P3061
11 tendered by the Prosecution. That document consists of two parts. The
12 first part is a series of post-mortems and the second part is a list of
13 50 patients that have been evacuated on the 6th of February and, well, let
14 me say the pages 00268597 up to last three digits 603. That is the
15 second part of the document.
16 The Chamber is not satisfied by the explanation as it has been
17 given until now in the reports of the Prosecutor on the, I would say,
18 double entries. Especially the date, the 5th of February, 1994, seems to
19 be a second entry at that same place very often in different position and
20 in different intensity of typewriting. Therefore, since the explanation
21 has not been satisfying until now, these documents are not admitted into
23 At the same time, the Chamber wonders whether the parties would
24 agree on aspects of this incident, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I have some
25 difficulties in looking at you because there is a --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, it is also true for my
2 side. I am sorry about it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: No, it is not your fault. But the Chamber wonders
4 whether the parties disagree, first of all, on the fact that a shell did
5 fall on the marketplace on the day, the 5th of February, 1994.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, if this
7 is a question, I think I can answer it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We will just see what -- in what -- what is in
9 dispute between the parties and what is not. So my question is about
10 whether a shell fell on the market, on the Markale market, on the 5th of
11 February and exploded. That is the first question. Yes.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can give you
13 an immediate answer. The Defence has already said in some of the
14 questions -- in some of the questions that we asked, that it was equally
15 possible that a manufactured bomb, a shell, was voluntarily positioned in
16 the market previously and in some way that there was a kind of scenario
17 that was put into place. On the other hand, we cannot --
18 JUDGE ORIE: You could not agree on whether there was anything
19 that fell on the market. Would the parties agree that there was an
20 explosion on the market on the 5th of February?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would have to confer. I
22 think, in fact, that since there was an explosion, I don't think that we
23 can reasonably contest this. I am trying to look at my colleague and the
24 General. Yes, I think that they are nodding their heads.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then the next question would be whether the parties
1 could agree on, let's say, 50-plus people killed by this explosion?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. No, Mr. President. No.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Which -- could you say whether it is the position of
4 the Defence that people were killed by this explosion, but less than 50,
5 or was there no one killed by this explosion?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. The
7 Defence, and particularly General Galic, were not concerned by this
8 incident, but the position of the Defence consists of saying that here I
9 must make a parallel with Timisoara, which is a very well-known incident
10 in the manipulation of the media, when we don't know whether the dead died
11 on the marketplace and, therefore, is it 50 plus, less than 50, and so on.
12 It is up to the Prosecution to prove this, not the contrary
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...of course. But I
14 am just trying to find out what is in dispute between the parties. Is it
15 the position of the Defence that no one was killed on the market by this
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you are placing
18 Defence in a very uncomfortable position. Imagine if there was a -- let's
19 say that there was an explosion and there was a set-up, and perhaps there
20 may have been three people who died. Imagine that the rest is comparable
21 to the Timisoara affair. How could I give you an answer?
22 JUDGE ORIE: So your answer is clear, that you do not exclude
23 that, and that is the position of the Defence, that no one was killed by
24 this explosion?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is negatively presented.
1 I think that seems better, yes, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that is at least clear.
3 Yes, Mr. Ierace.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, two points. There has been --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace started telling us something and I
7 would like to have him continue. No, no, no, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.
9 MR. IERACE: Two points, Mr. President. Firstly, the Prosecution
10 has called already witnesses who gave evidence that, immediately after the
11 explosion, they observed countless people dead and wounded. It has not
12 been put to those witnesses that they were lying or otherwise mistake.
13 Secondly, a minor point, my friend refers to a well-known incident
14 in the media which I think he said was Timisoara. Perhaps he could spell
15 that for the benefit of the transcript.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. I am just
18 reading the transcript. That is Timisoara.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked to spell it out.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will spell it in French.
21 That is T-i-m-i-s-o-a-r-a. Timisoara is located, I can tell Mr. Ierace,
22 on the Danube river, more or less south of Romania, close to Hungary.
23 Both countries are in Europe.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That is our ruling on the admission into evidence of
25 these documents. Let me just one moment confer.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that, the last question in this
3 respect, that the Defence also take as similar position in respect of
4 wounded people as a result of this explosion?
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that goes without
6 saying, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then are you ready to cross-examine
8 General Rose?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but just
10 to give additional clarification, be more specific, this can happen --
11 this witness is a crucial witness. He gave a statement of about 20 pages.
12 It may happen that we have to go over the limit. We are hesitating, Mr.
13 President, that we were hesitating as to calling this witness as to one of
14 our witnesses, but out of courtesy for Sir Michael Rose, if we can go a
15 little bit over the limit so that we don't have to get him to come back
16 like some other witnesses. I think that will be a gain for justice in any
18 JUDGE ORIE: There is no doubt, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you have
19 to conclude the cross-examination by today. We will consider whether you
20 could continue after the next break, but there is no question about taking
21 more than today, let me be clear. And we start with the point that it
22 Defence gets as much time as the Prosecution took. And it will very much
23 depend also on the way you cross-examine the witness whether extra time
24 will be allowed.
25 Just to give you some guidance, if you thank the witness for each
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 and every answer he gives, that takes under cross-examination altogether
2 five minutes. If you ask, as you did with the last witness, four or five
3 questions whether he was a man with good training and then without any
4 follow-up in other questions, we take it that if the General is in front
5 of us, that even without asking him five questions on whether he considers
6 himself to be a good, well-educated military man and therefore he will
7 have a good assessment of a lot of situations, that usually is only
8 relevant if some doubt comes up as to the competence of this person.
9 I just note that yesterday, I think you put four or five
10 questions in that respect without any follow-up, and if you use your time
11 in that way, then, of course, the Chamber might be more hesitant to grant
12 extra time.
13 Could Madam Usher please escort the witness into the courtroom.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 But, of course, we believe that we can do it in less than an hour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's see what happens.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ORIE: General Rose, you will now be cross-examined by
19 counsel for the Defence.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, General. Thank you for being
23 here. I know you speak French very well.
24 A. Not perfectly.
25 Q. I will ask questions in French.
1 General, would you like me to call you Sir Michael or General?
2 What do you prefer?
3 A. It is whatever pleases you.
4 Q. I will call you "Sir" or "General."
5 A. It is your --
6 Q. General, I would like you to confirm to me that you gave a
7 written witness statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 24th of
8 May, 1995.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. General, by courtesy, I appreciate that you are looking at me, but
11 I think that the Chamber also needs to hear your answer.
12 Now, General, to make things simple, and with the leave of the
13 Chamber, I will hand your statement of the 24th of May, 1995, so that
14 you can confirm your -- identify your signature, please.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This statement, Mr. President,
16 has also been giving to the booth, the interpretation booths.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Will it be tendered?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We don't know that yet.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We don't think so.
21 Q. General, do you recognise your signature?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Thank you. Thank you. That is the document that you gave to the
24 Office of the Prosecutor.
25 Now, General, to gain time, we are going to look at this document
1 together, and I would be very grateful if you could go to directly to page
2 two of the witness statement, please, and to go to the end of the
3 penultimate paragraph on this page. I will read what you stated here.
4 And in advance, I thank you for your indulgence with my accent. You said
5 the following [In English]: "Is included to Bosnian Serbs looking for a
6 global ceasefire starting with the demilitarisations of Sarajevo."
7 First question, General, is it true that at this particular
8 point --
9 A. [No audible response]
10 Q. Thank you. Is it true that at this particular point, the forces
11 as those commanded by General Galic wished not to have war but, on the
12 contrary, to have global ceasefire?
13 A. Certainly.
14 Q. And, General, if you let me, I will continue. And a ceasefire
15 starting with the demilitarisation of Sarajevo --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it is appropriate for the witness to
18 be allowed to complete his answer.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You interrupted him. Did you answer the question as
21 you wished to do? Or would you like to add something?
22 THE WITNESS: I could add that the Bosnian Serb army were in the
23 military ascendancy and that it was in their interest to halt the fighting
24 at that moment, politically.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you for that.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. However, the question I was asking before I was being interrupted,
4 General, is this one: Is it true - if you can answer by a "yes" or a
5 "no", please - that at that particular point the Serb army that is
6 commanded by General Galic did not wish war, but peace?
7 A. [Interpretation] Yes, on the contrary.
8 Q. [In English] For your answer. Thank you very much for that.
9 [Interpretation], General, I would like us now to go to a
10 following question, General. You spoke a great deal earlier about an
11 attack on Markale. I used the term "attack" --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Before you change to that, I have some difficulties
13 in understanding your answer to the question. The question was whether it
14 was true that at a particular point the Serb army that is commanded by
15 General Galic did not wish war, but peace. And then you said -- the
16 answer is translated in the transcript; I think you answered in French.
17 You said: "Yes, on the contrary," which sounds a bit contradictory, as a
18 matter of fact. You can say "yes" --
19 THE WITNESS: Am I permitted to clarify?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 THE WITNESS: At that point in time, the Serbs, and we are talking
22 about Sarajevo only because elsewhere there was a civil war going on, at
23 that point, it was in the political interest for the Serb army to have
24 peace in and around Sarajevo.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I still do not understand then what "on the
1 contrary" means.
2 THE WITNESS: On the contrary, they were not pursuing at that
3 point a war policy in and around Sarajevo. They had agreed to a peaceful
4 withdrawal of their heavy weapons.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is clear to me.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 Q. General, just to be clear on this point, is it true that at that
9 particular point the Serb forces wanted more than that, they wanted a
10 demilitarisation, total demilitarisation, of the zone of Sarajevo. Is
11 that correct?
12 A. It was one of their stated aims.
13 Q. General, so it is true to say, according to what you know, that at
14 that point - I am not talking about the war, I am talking about the events
15 - there was a military and political will on the Serb side, was not just
16 to withdraw weapons but obliteration in and around Sarajevo?
17 A. [No audible response]
18 Q. Thank you, General. Now, I would like to come back to the point
19 of Markale. I am just going to go superficially in relation to what I
20 call "an attack." Yes, an attack, in French an "attentat" is an attack in
21 English when it doesn't concern --
22 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, the interpreters' booth would like
23 to intervene for this.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. But I just
1 have to underline this.
2 Q. Not a shelling. Is it true, General, that you said that such
3 events were susceptible to happen chronologically, at certain periods of
4 time when, elsewhere on the international scene, there were important
5 events which were about to happen? Is that true?
6 A. I think that I said that the event had international significance
7 which allowed political progress to be made. It was the event which had
8 the effect on the international community, not the other way around.
9 Q. Indeed. General, didn't you say publicly, on some occasions, that
10 what happened in this type of civil wars in Sarajevo, that some events
11 comparable to Markale occurred chronologically just at a given point in
12 time when we are waiting for certain -- anticipating some decisions on the
13 international scene? For instance, to be more precise, at a given time
14 when we are expecting or hoping for military interventions from the
15 outside, for instance, NATO intervention?
16 A. Certainly, there have been occasions when military events were
17 used to produce international responses favourable to one side or another.
18 Q. Thank you for your answer, General.
19 Do you think -- do you think that such events could have been
20 provoked with this purpose in mind, with this objective in mind, in order
21 to get some political gain?
22 A. [No audible response]
23 Q. Thank you for your answer.
24 Let us go back to Markale and what followed --
25 JUDGE ORIE: If you change from subject, I would like you -- I let
1 you finish and let the witness finish the answer because we have a
2 nonaudible response on page 44, line 21.
3 You were asked, General, whether there was a military and
4 political will on the Serb side not just to withdraw weapons but
5 obliteration in and around Sarajevo, and I think your answer was in the
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It could not be understood by the interpreter. It
9 has been clarified.
10 May I ask the interpreters' booth, I see on page 45, line 1, that
11 the interpreter would like to intervene. Is the problem solved or is the
12 problem not solved?
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter booth notes that the word
14 French "attentat" in the case of incident would have to be interpreted
15 as "attack," not as assassination attempt.
16 JUDGE ORIE That has been clarified then as well. Mr. Ierace, is
17 there --
18 MR. IERACE: There is another "no audible response" at page 46,
19 line 3.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is where you were asked whether such
21 events could have been provoked with such a purpose in mind, with this
22 objective in mind, in order to get some political gain. I think your
23 answer was --
24 THE WITNESS: It is possible.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It's possible, yes.
1 Could you please, especially if these answers are very short,
2 first wait until the cursor stops moving and then, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
3 before thanking the witness for his answer, could you please pause as
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Sir, if we can continue and go back to Markale. Is it true that
7 even after the incident of Markale, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, who was in
8 charge in command of the Muslim forces, was still not -- did not agree
9 with the demilitarisation of Sarajevo? [In English] You say that is
11 A. That is true.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.
13 General, I would now like to focus my attention on the period of
14 February 1994 and the beginning of 1994. I would like you to go to page 5
15 of your own statement, please.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Usher.
17 Q. General, you said the following, and I am going to quote you now:
18 [In English] "Serbs were favourable to the suggestion of a global
20 [Interpretation] Are we still in this period of 1994? It is --
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it may be that the answer will clarify
22 this, but in case it doesn't, this question began with the observation by
23 my friend that he was focussing the witness's attention on the periods of
24 February 1994 and the beginning of 1994. Having said that, he went
25 straight to this quote. It is apparent from a entry in the preceding
1 sentence that it relates to April 1994. So in order to avoid confusion, I
2 think that should be made clear.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I precisely wanted to
4 ask the question to the General, find out whether his affirmation would
5 have covered the beginning of 1994.
6 THE WITNESS: After the ceasefire around Sarajevo, the United
7 Nations proceeded with their efforts to turn what was a local ceasefire
8 into a more global cessation of hostilities, and during that time we
9 received the assistance of Mr. Redman, United States foreign service, and
10 this comment came from discussions we had after February, in April,
11 discussing a global cessation of hostilities.
12 At that time, the Serbs were in favour of a general global
13 cessation of hostilities.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Thank you, General. General, I would like to ask you which would
16 be simpler for you, if you have good glasses, to read the last paragraph
17 of that page, beginning with [In English] "They told me that they ..." et
18 cetera. [Interpretation] Would you please do it?
19 THE WITNESS: If you are following my line on a global ceasefire,
20 they said they were now prepared to enter talks on a ceasefire based on
21 the plan proposed by Viktor Andreev and myself, and on the plan being
22 borne by the Geneva Peace Conference.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you very much. General, would you agree with me -- thank
25 you for much for the French booth who has been running, trying to catch up
1 with me.
2 Would you agree that there was a very significant evolution in
3 regard to the position of Serb militaries and politicians in that period
4 who were trying to seek peace?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the passage that the witness was
8 invited to read was not, in fact, the paragraph but rather it commenced at
9 the third sentence in the paragraph. The first two sentences clarified
10 who "they" were, and in order that Your Honours can follow the full sense
11 of the quote, it would be appropriate surely for my friend to bring out
12 who "they" were. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just to gain time, since we have been provided
14 with the text, the line before reads: "Then I saw Dr. Karadzic and
15 Mladic. So "they" is sufficiently explained.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I thought that
17 it was clear that we were referring to Serb politicians and military.
18 THE WITNESS: I will add to my reply something that I have
19 already said, that at this point, the Serbs controlled much of the
20 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, 70 per cent, and it was in their interest
21 at that point to declare a ceasefire and pursue some political settlement,
22 as they had the military advantage.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you, General, for your answer.
25 General, is it true that the Serbs in that period, and I would ask
1 you to answer by a "yes" or "no," wished a ceasefire, a global ceasefire
2 for a period of at least one year?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 Is it true, consequently -- is it true, consequently, that the
6 opposed forces did not want to -- if speaking about the ceasefire, would
7 want this for a limited period of time, four weeks, perhaps four months?
8 A. [Previous translation continues]...four months, that's correct.
9 Q. Is it true, General, that the political aim sought by the Sarajevo
10 forces which we refer to as Presidency was to gain time in order to
11 organise military construction and to begin fighting?
12 A. It's certainly possible that that is what they were hoping to
13 achieve, but, of course, I am not able to make a precise analysis of
14 that --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am speaking to you as --
16 since you are a General.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, page 50, line 12, and I think that
19 problem at that point arises from the need for my learned colleague and
20 the witness to pause.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think the
22 answer is clear. It was four months. And I think an intervention of this
23 kind is wasting our time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I am quite sure that the answer was
2 longer than "four months," that's correct.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please make pauses? And
4 I had some difficulties in following the weeks and the months as well,
5 although, finally, I understood that these were months and not weeks.
6 You showed some irritation before, and so did Mr. Ierace, on the
7 interruptions. Would you please all refrain from expressing your
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very gladly, Mr. President. I
11 will be -- I will adopt a British flavour.
12 Q. General, is it true, General, in order to clarify this matter,
13 that consequently it was possible that the Bosniak side of the Sarajevo
14 side tried to gain time to reconstruct its military operations --
15 A. [Previous translation continues]...explained, the Bosnian
16 government saw their position as being one of a victim state subject to
17 aggression. They had the moral right, in their view, to recover their
18 lost territories. So the logic that you propose is entirely possible.
19 Q. Thank you, General.
20 General, in that sense, do you know whether there was an
21 exploitation of the media in that period?
22 A. [No audible response]
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 Q. General, to the extent that General Galic's Corps was interested
25 in some events --
1 MR. IERACE: No audible response. I didn't hear it as well as not
2 being able to read it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see. The answer was in the affirmative.
4 THE WITNESS: It certainly was.
5 JUDGE ORIE: "It certainly was" was the answer of the witness.
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the situation may be assisted if the
7 microphone could be repositioned, given that the General is facing towards
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please even the left
10 microphone, perhaps to be put a bit more in front of the table.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness wait until the end of
12 interpretation, please, before answering.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If the cable is long enough, to go a bit more to the
14 corner of table, to what is for you, the left.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].
16 Q. General, before intervening for the same reason, Mr. Ierace, the
17 booth is simply asking you to make a pause before providing the answer.
18 I suppose that is what Mr. Ierace wanted to say.
19 I, personally, can hear your answers perfectly well in English.
20 General, I spoke of Gorazde. Do you know that city?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know whether in Gorazde there was a huge manipulation in
23 regard to the media?
24 A. There was certainly manipulation of the events.
25 Q. General, I will try to summarise this. Is it true, that as far as
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I can remember, one simulated on the international plane a situation of
2 attack and crisis which did not extend to that extent in Gorazde at the
3 time? Yes or no?
4 A. That is not true. There was an attack on Gorazde.
5 Q. To that extent?
6 A. [Previous translation continues]...at the start of the attack.
7 Not only by the media but by the government, the Bosnian government as
9 Q. So do you understand by this is a technique of warfare?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Also the record asks to slow down.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
12 Q. So you answered "yes" to the fact that manipulations of
13 information coming from the Bosnian government was, to your mind, a
14 technique of war?
15 A. [No audible response]
16 Q. Thank you for your very clear answer.
17 Now, I am just checking upon the transcript, not to have any
18 problems in that respect. The response was not audible.
19 I am waiting for the answer to appear.
20 THE WITNESS: Maybe the answer --
21 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, the witness, it is the
22 recollection -- it is my recollection that the witness said that this was
23 a technique of war.
24 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we seem to be
1 having technical problems with the -- capturing the transcript. I think
2 we might have to slow down a little bit. And I am just informing the
3 Chamber of this.
4 Q. General, do you think that that technique of war, which was the
5 term you used, was employed elsewhere, in Gorazde, for instance?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the answer to your question still
7 has to appear before you put a new question to the witness. The answer
8 did not yet appear.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The problem is that it never
11 JUDGE ORIE: If there are any specific problems with the
12 transcript, I would like to be informed. I think your answer was in the
13 affirmative, that this technique of war was implied elsewhere, and I think
14 the question was: "Elsewhere and then in Gorazde."
15 THE WITNESS: I understood it to be elsewhere from Sarajevo, for
16 example, in Gorazde.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I understood the question as being corrected
18 elsewhere from Gorazde, for example, in Sarajevo. Is that the question?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The question was the
20 following, Mr. President:
21 Q. The technique, General, was it employed in other places, yes or
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. To the extent that you have answered yes, has -- was this also
25 used in Sarajevo? Yes or no?
1 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
2 Q. Thank you for that answer.
3 Sir Michael Rose, now I would like to come back to the subject of
4 sniping. Is it exact, is it true, that there were problems in relation to
5 sniping in -- on both sides, on both warring sides?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. General, when you say, "yes," do you also know - and we think we
8 know it - that it happened that there was firing coming from Muslim
9 marksmen in the direction of -- on their own citizens or on their own
11 A. I could never say with any certainty, but there was a suspicion
12 that this may have been the case. Whether that was well-founded or not,
13 impossible to say.
14 Q. General, you are a man with vast experience, and when you say
15 there was suspicions, those suspicions, were they more than a possibility?
16 A. I think I would be more comfortable with it remaining a
18 Q. I understand. Thank you.
19 General, if you know, was there a sniper unit based near or by the
20 Holiday Inn hotel?
21 A. Are you referring to Serb snipers or Bosnian government snipers?
22 Q. No, I am referring to the BiH army.
23 A. [Previous translation continues]...seen one sniper emerging and
24 the French certainly have seen a police team, a sniping team, emerging
25 from buildings close to the Holiday Inn.
1 Q. General, you are saying that it was a unit because you spoke of a
2 team. Is this the term you used?
3 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, one thing, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, again to
4 make a pause, because the last answer, if you look at your screen, starts
5 with "seen one sniper" and I think it is of major importance, perhaps for
6 the Defence case as well, that it was this witness who told us that he had
7 seen this.
8 Now, since you started your next question too early, or perhaps I
9 must say, General Rose, that you started perhaps your answer too early,
10 that this information which might be very important is missing on the
11 transcript. So I must ask everyone to make that pause in order not to
12 lose evidence.
13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might that last answer by clarified.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
15 Q. General --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't know whether you should interfere in
17 the cross-examination of the Defence unless there is any specific reason.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't seek to interfere. It is just
19 that when one looks at the transcript, it is still not clear what General
20 Rose has said.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is why I will rephrase
22 the question.
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful if I was not
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if Mr. Ierace speaks, you wait
1 until he is finished what he says.
2 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. IERACE: I was just making the point that if one looks at the
5 transcript, for anyone who reads the transcript, it is still not clear
6 what the General said. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please repeat your answer, General.
8 THE WITNESS: I have certainly seen one sniper coming out of a
9 building close to the Holiday Inn, and the French reported a paramilitary
10 police team on the Bosnian government side, also coming out of a building
11 in the region of the Holiday Inn. Now, I could add, this was a natural
12 place for the Bosnian government to put snipers if they wished to
13 indulge in counter-snipe activities across the river. Equally, they
14 could be used to confuse the whereabouts of their sniping because of
15 their location.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it would seem,
19 this being the case, that we have had difficulties with the transcript
20 today --
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...aware that this
22 takes time but let's not discuss this in the middle of cross-examination.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
24 Q. General, thank you.
25 What I was saying a minute ago, you spoke about a team. Is it
1 true -- is it right to consider that there were units in the technical
2 military sense of the term of "snipers"?
3 A. Just to go back to the reply on line 21 of --
4 JUDGE ORIE: General Rose, I have to interrupt again.
5 THE WITNESS: There's a misinterpretation.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think since you did not wait until the cursor
7 stopped moving, the answer to the question, which was "yes," and then you
8 wanted to go back to the reply of line 21. But your answer is now missing
9 from the transcript. So I again have to ask you -- perhaps I do it the
10 following way which we did before, although it may seem a bit childish.
11 With my hand, I give signs who is going to put the next question or who is
12 at that moment going to answer the question.
13 I hate to do it, and I can't do it by speaking because that would
14 even further cause a problem. So if you would please then look to me,
15 both Mr. Piletta-Zanin and you. I am sorry that I have to do it.
16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think that General was about to
17 correct an earlier answer.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are right. Thank you for your assistance.
19 Would you please tell us what you would like to tell us on line
20 21? Which now disappeared from your screen. But I could read it for you
21 if you want to.
22 THE WITNESS: I just wish to change one word. It should have
23 read "countersniping activities."
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is --
25 THE WITNESS: Important.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is in page 57, line 21, it should
2 be: "countersniping."
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. That is very
6 Q. General, is it true that in the book that you devoted to this part
7 of your life, you spoke of, at a certain point, of a firing which took
8 place, a shot that was fired on civilians, near this area, that is what
9 we called the Holiday Inn hotel?
10 A. I do not have the book in front of me, but if that is what I
12 Q. Do you remember that, General? Do you remember that?
13 A. I certainly have a memory of a suspicion at the time that a
14 Bosnian government sniper team may have fired on one of the trams.
15 Q. General, I am going to take the liberty of reading what you wrote
16 in page 22 of your book called "Fighting for Peace." And you can tell me
17 if this is correct. You were speaking of someone who saw this scene in
18 Sarajevo and you said the following: [In English] Soon after we --
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace
21 MR. IERACE: The convention has always been that the Defence
22 provides copies of documents from which it reads before it does so. My
23 friend has referred to a page number from --
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I withdraw this question,
25 Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Very well, General, if you have written it, then we are going to
4 assume that this is correct.
5 A. Can you read out what I said?
6 Q. The question is the following: Could we assume that what you have
7 written in the book is correct?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I withdraw this question.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The question has been withdrawn.
11 THE WITNESS: It is entirely possible that something I wrote four
12 years ago, five years ago, may subsequently have proved to be inexact. I
13 cannot guarantee that what I wrote in hindsight was always correct.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].
15 Q. Indeed. General, could you confirm, however, that the Bosnian
16 authorities refused to sign initially, in any case, an anti-sniping
18 A. There were difficulties, I think, on both sides about the
19 signature, which is why it took so long. I think I explained that both
20 sides wished trade-offs, these political trade-offs, and these are what
21 was causing the difficulty.
22 Q. Is it true --
23 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Is it true, General, that you said that Mr. Silajdzic and
1 Mr. Ganic were refusing to discuss on any level the cessation of
3 A. I think it would be more accurate to say that they wished to have
4 certain preconditions met before they would entertain discussion of a
5 cessation of hostilities. This was, of course, in the mid-1994. By the
6 end of 1994, we managed to persuade them to accept a cessation of
7 hostility agreement.
8 Q. General, could you please take the statement that you have before
9 you on page 8 and read the penultimate paragraph.
10 A. That was certainly a true statement for that day. The reason for
11 that --
12 Q. I can hear it well. But could you please read it for the
14 A. "On the 23rd of May, I met with Mr. Silajdzic and Mr. Ganic, but
15 both refused to discuss the cessation of hostilities."
16 Q. General, is it then true that at this particular point in time,
17 end of May, 1994, the political authorities, Mr. Silajdzic, and military
18 authorities, Mr. Ganic, were refusing to discuss cessation of hostilities?
19 A. The answer was yes.
20 Q. Thank you. General, I am now going to continue along the same
21 line. Do you know and could you tell us who is General Delic? Very
23 A. General Delic was the military commander of all Bosnian government
25 Q. Is it true, General, that General Delic told you at a certain
1 point that the only possible way for them was the way of total war?
2 A. I believe he did say that.
3 Q. That's what it says in your statement. Thank you for remembering
5 General, when your equivalent, General Delic, stated that he had
6 -- there were no other possibilities for them except for total war, this
7 was meant on the level of the entire Bosnia, wasn't it?
8 A. That is so.
9 Q. General, that is including Sarajevo?
10 A. That appears to be so.
11 Q. General, is it true that Sarajevo was particularly charged with
12 powerful symbolism through its image?
13 A. Evidently so, because it was the capital of Bosnia. But, of
14 course, later we managed to interest both General Delic and Mr. Ganic in
15 the idea of a demilitarisation and cessation of hostilities. We achieved
16 the latter, never the former.
17 Q. Thank you, General.
18 Would you agree with me to consider that, militarily speaking or
19 politically speaking, whoever holds Sarajevo holds Bosnia?
20 A. That is so.
21 Q. General, would you agree with me to consider that the exploitation
22 as the image of Sarajevo as a martyr would be very useful to the cause of
23 the Muslim authorities?
24 A. That was evidently the case.
25 Q. Thank you, General.
1 I would now like to come back more specifically to another
2 interesting point, which is the preparation of maps which were necessary
3 for a peace plan. I would like you to go back to your own statement, and
4 on page 10 of your statement, you can read the very last sentence of the
5 first paragraph, please. [In English] "The UN Civil Affairs."
6 A. Which paragraph?
7 Q. [Interpretation] The first paragraph, top of page 10, please,
8 General. The last page -- the last sentence begins with "the UN Civil
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. [In English] Would you please read it?
12 A. "The UN Civil Affairs believed that the map was deliberately drawn
13 to ensure Bosnian Serb rejection."
14 Q. [Interpretation] General, could you please give us some
15 specification as to the date of this matter of these maps.
16 A. [No audible response]
17 Q. General -- yes, I am sorry, we don't have the answer. I perfectly
18 heard "6th of July." It doesn't appear in the transcript.
19 General, could you please repeat your answer.
20 A. The date at which the contact group presented the map was the 6th
21 of July, 1994.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
23 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. In my respectful
24 submission, it is incumbent upon cross-examining counsel to elicit the
25 matter in a coercive means and that requires, in this context, an
1 explanation as to what maps the witness is referring to by reading that
2 line of his statement. Thank you.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I answer, Mr. President?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may respond.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is perfectly coherent for
6 whoever knows about this case.
7 Q. General --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you did not respond. You did
9 reprimand, I think - I am not quite sure - the one who asked the
10 question. This Chamber is confronted with one line read about maps, not
11 knowing what it is about. So the observation of Mr. Ierace was totally
12 justified, and if you are asked to respond, I would like you to respond on
13 what has been said and not to reprimand the other party.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will do this gladly by
15 asking the following question.
16 Q. General, could you please very briefly tell the Chamber and
17 everyone, in fact, what was so important about these maps, what these maps
18 were about?
19 A. [Previous translation continues]...group which did not represent
20 necessarily the political views of the United Nations, produced without
21 consultation their own solution to the dividing up of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
22 This attempt had been made previously by Mr. Vance, Mr. Owen and others,
23 Stoltenberg included.
24 The Civil Affairs representative in Sarajevo, Mr. Viktor Andreev,
25 considered this map unworkable.
1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I am sorry to interrupt you. I would like
2 you to explain what was the contact group.
3 THE WITNESS: The contact group was a number of countries led by
4 America, including France, Britain, Germany, and others, six nations
5 represented, Russia included. It was an independent attempt to resolve
6 the political -- the problem of the political division of
8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: It was a European initiative initially to form this
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Now, in order to respect the time, could you please tell us how much time
14 we have left? I don't know this because I am going much more slowly than
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: If we would have the break at 12.30, and if we would
18 start again at 10 minutes to 1.00, I think that the time -- the Chamber
19 thinks that the time lost by technical problems would be fully compensated
20 if you would continue until a quarter past 1.00.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, very much, Mr.
23 Q. General, in respect of these questions and matters, now that
24 things are perfectly clear, did you have the impression that on an
25 international level there was a very anti-Serb feeling which made it so --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 resulted in such a way that such a plan could not be immediately
3 A. There was certainly a desire amongst the international community
4 not to reward the aggressor.
5 Q. General, am I to understand from what you are saying that the
6 international community did not wish to have a plan that would have frozen
7 the positions, perhaps, positions on the ground, and that would have
8 perhaps avoided a lot of suffering?
9 A. I think that is a fair assessment.
10 Q. General, considering this situation, do you think that the
11 international community perhaps has a relative part of responsibility in
12 this drama that we have to examine today?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
14 MR. IERACE: I object to that question, Mr. President.
15 The question bears no relevance to the task that the Trial Chamber
16 faces in determining the issues in this trial. It also involves a
17 reasonably complex consideration of moral issues.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I ask why
20 this is sustained?
21 JUDGE ORIE: The relevance of issues that we have to examine is
22 for the Chamber to decide and not for a witness. A witness could not tell
23 us what is relevant. You may ask about whatever issue you would like to
24 ask questions, and if there is any objection that it is irrelevant, the
25 Chamber will decide on it. But you cannot ask a witness what are relevant
1 issues to be -- to be examined by this Chamber.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 Q. Sir Michael, could you testify and tell this Chamber that in the
4 period that we are talking about here, that is the entire 1994, the Serb
5 forces, for whatever reason that may be, they sought, wanted and wished
6 for peace in Sarajevo?
7 A. That was generally the case.
8 Q. Thank you for your answer, General.
9 Now, I would like us to, in order to finish these questions on
10 snipers, I would like to ask you for a clarification. In relation to
11 this, you mentioned an anti-sniping agreement and also the presence of
12 General Galic. Did you personally see him at these negotiations?
13 A. I really don't remember whether I saw him at these negotiations,
14 personally. I certainly saw him from time to time, but the main level of
15 negotiation and the preparatory were for the anti-sniping agreement, took
16 place between General Galic and Brigadier Soubirou, not between me and
17 General Galic.
18 Q. Thank you. General, it is and may be a surprising question but I
19 am asking it anyway: General Galic who is here presented today, didn't he
20 ever declare to you that he wanted to use snipers in order to kill as many
21 persons as possible in Sarajevo and elsewhere?
22 A. Evidently not.
23 Q. Thank you very much. This concludes the question of the snipers.
24 General, do you know what Tarcin was, briefly?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could you tell us what Tarcin was?
2 A. Tarcin, if my memory is correct, was a prison run by the Bosnian
3 government where a number of Serbs were held.
4 Q. In which conditions, General?
5 A. It was visited once, I think, by the ICRC, and the reports were
6 they were not held in very -- again, my memory tells me were not being
7 held in very good conditions. They were inside a grain silo, I think.
8 Q. General, do you know if there were other prisons in Sarajevo
9 itself where Serb prisoners, detainees, would have been held?
10 A. I have no knowledge of any prison in Sarajevo where they were --
11 Serb prisoners were held. Tarcin was outside Sarajevo.
12 Q. General, I now would like to come back to the reactions that
13 followed the -- immediate follow-up on what was the follow-up of the
14 attack on Markale market.
15 Is it true that immediately Serb forces intervened with your
16 services, firstly, in order to deny all responsibility in this attack; and
17 secondly, to ask urgently establishment of an international investigation
18 commission, mixed. Is that true?
19 A. It is true the Serbs, I think, offered to form a commission to
20 enquire into the origin of this attack.
21 Q. General, with the assistance of Madam Usher, just before the
22 break, I would like you to have a look at a document P number 137 which
23 is a document which is written in Serbian but that was addressed to you
24 at the time. And in order to make things more simple, there is a
25 translation of the document that was then -- it is on the back of the
2 General, do you recognise this document? Have you ever seen it?
3 I am going to ask the question differently. As far as you can
4 recall, was this General Milovanovic who addressed himself to you in
5 relation to this attack?
6 A. I have a memory of receiving a letter like this.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 General, is it true that at the time, at the same time that Serb
9 forces wanted -- at the time of this attack -- they wanted to have
10 establishment of this investigation commission, international commission,
11 forces of Sarajevo refused this?
12 A. It is entirely possible that the United Nations wished to have an
13 independent inquiry, not one made up of both parties to the conflict.
14 Q. General, I am going to submit a second document to you in the next
15 30 seconds with the assistance of Madam Usher, whom I think --
16 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you asked
17 whether the forces of Sarajevo refused to establish such an international
18 commission --
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The response was that it was entirely possible that
21 the United Nations wished to have an independent inquiry --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is also correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But that might not be an answer to the question.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That is the reason why I am
25 asking for the document 138 to be submitted.
1 Q. General, same question. You have before you a second letter that
2 was addressed to you again by General Milovanovic. Do you recall this
3 type of document? And do you also know the person, General Ramsey?
4 A. I don't remember a General Ramsey. I don't know to whom he would
5 be referring. The normal practice for the Bosnian government was to carry
6 out their own forensic examination on --
7 Q. General, I am going to interrupt you. I am sorry, but the text
8 that you have, perhaps the name is spelled differently. This is Brigadier
10 A. Brigadier Ramsey, yes. He was Chief of Staff.
11 Q. Very well. So the name that we have here is phonetically written
12 in a different way. So this is Brigadier Ramsey.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. President,
14 since we look at the time, we will continue this line of questioning
15 later. Perhaps the witness could be authorised, if that is possible, to
16 have these two documents so that he can read the English translation,
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think there is no problem when the witness
19 reads the English translation of these two documents during the break.
20 We will then adjourn until 5 minutes to 1.00 and you will have
21 until 20 minutes past 1.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
1 Q. General, please take the document that I submitted to you a while
2 ago, number 138, and it has to do with General Ramsey.
3 General, do you know whether General Milovanovic had contacted
4 your services immediately following the Markale attack?
5 A. [No audible response]
6 Q. Thank you very much. Is it possible --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I am --
8 THE WITNESS: I think he probably did.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think if you have been in command for such a long
10 time, that it becomes a habit. General, thank you for your assistance.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You see that I know how to obey, General.
14 General, do you know whether it is true that General Milovanovic
15 contacted General Ramsey?
16 A. That may have happened. I don't know.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we have a no audible response. During
18 the break, the transcriber has made clear to Mr. Piletta-Zanin
19 and myself that where she types "no audible response," there is also no
20 tape record of what the witness has said.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So it should then be repeated. We have a "no audible
22 response" on the question whether you -- whether the witness knows that
23 General Milanovic had contacted his services immediately following to the
24 Markale attack and --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my question was
1 not reproduced, and we are having a technical problem which does not
2 depend on the speed at which we are speaking. It was simply not
3 registered in the transcript. We must resolve that technical problem, the
4 problem of the transcript.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is it a technical problem or is it just -- could I be
6 informed, is there any incident or moment where the transcript could not
7 be prepared as usual? If there is a technical problem, I would like to be
9 There is no technical problem, and since we all are aware that you
10 have sometimes a weaker moment than all your other strong moments, we will
11 then continue and try to locate exactly what we missed.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I will do
13 it for you. My question was the following. I cannot always have an eye
14 on the transcript.
15 Q. Was it possible that General Milovanovic contacted his
16 counterpart, Brigadier Ramsey, and I believe that the answer given by
17 General Rose was, "It is highly probable."
18 Is that true, yes or no?
19 JUDGE ORIE: The General's nodding is even more difficult for the
20 transcript. So I see you are nodding "yes." That means that you confirm
21 that the answer as pronounced by Mr. Piletta-Zanin was yours?
22 THE WITNESS: That is so. I was waiting for the transcript to
23 finish before I confirmed. That is what I said.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
1 Q. General, you have been informed of that document. Is it true that
2 General Milovanovic complained, given the fact that the Muslim forces
3 refused to have a commission, a multi-party commission set up?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. General, now I would like to move on to other
6 subjects. Could you confirm that there was a state of civil war in
8 JUDGE ORIE: I am listening, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The question was addressed to
10 the witness, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- would you answer the question.
12 THE WITNESS: In my opinion, and this is a political question, it
13 was a civil war, although the Bosnian government did not like it to be
14 referred to as such.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you, General.
17 General, did you on your own or by yourself, were you involved in
18 -- were you [In English] not "were you involved."
19 [Interpretation] Did you know about important fighting?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you, General.
22 General, is it true --
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE: The question as translated into English is: "Did you
1 know about important fighting?" Answer: "Yes." I presume that that is
2 not the question asked by my learned colleague because, if it was, it
3 makes no sense.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It would be meaningful if we
5 were -- if Sarajevo were added to the question because it was part of my
6 question. I think that the General answered it.
7 THE WITNESS: I was referring to an important level of conflict
8 taking place in Sarajevo. Was I aware of this?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: The answer was, "yes."
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you, General.
14 Did you know about the fact that there was necessarily in Sarajevo
15 -- that there were in Sarajevo necessarily military targets inside or in
16 the centre of civilian areas, of residential areas?
17 A. There were certainly military targets, if by that you mean Bosnian
18 government forces stationed within Sarajevo.
19 Q. General, I would like you to answer by "yes or no," so as to be
21 Is it true, yes or no, that command and control posts are
22 legitimate military targets?
23 A. I don't understand the question in English.
24 Q. Is it true, yes or no, that headquarters were legitimate military
1 A. Of course.
2 Q. Is it true, General, that roads of a strategic importance or
3 telecommunication means are also the same sort of target?
4 A. If used for military purposes, yes.
5 Q. Is it true, General, that cars used by the army for military
6 operations lato sensu were also legitimate military target?
7 A. Of course.
8 Q. General, is it true that in Sarajevo a significant number of such
9 targets, of legitimate military targets, immobile [Realtime transcript
10 read inerror "in mobile"] mainly, were spread through the whole
11 residential are?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the transcript or for the translation, the
13 question was: "Immobile" and not "in mobile," I think, in English. This
14 could create confusion. So, therefore, the question was about legitimate
15 military targets, not mobile ones but immobile.
16 A. Bosnian government forces were fighting to defend Sarajevo,
17 therefore, they, by definition, were stationed and operating in Sarajevo.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
19 Q. General, can I understand that your answer is "yes"?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am waiting for the
21 transcript. The answer of the witness was, "yes" and it does not appear
22 on the screen.
23 Q. Can I just ask you General to please repeat --
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...the answer of the
25 witness was, "yes." So please proceed.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
2 Q. General, is it equally true for mobile means, that is to say,
3 military vehicles, transport of troops, transport of mortars, perhaps of
4 tanks, that could circulate around Sarajevo?
5 A. Certainly, these elements appeared from time to time in Sarajevo.
6 Q. And they, therefore, constituted legitimate targets?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Troops moving, or elements of troops moving?
9 A. If these were engaged, that's true, but I have no memory of troops
10 on the move being engaged. Because the positions tended to be static.
11 Q. General, given the time left to me, I would like to ask you a few
12 more questions.
13 Is it true that, to the best of your knowledge, the forces called
14 "Sarajevo forces" had themselves provoked certain interruptions in the
15 electrical supply and in other elements like water and gas?
16 A. I think the interruptions from the utilities occurred more from
17 the political than the military side.
18 Q. General, you are saying that these were actions emanating more
19 from the political authorities. Does that mean that -- these were the
20 political authorities of Sarajevo?
21 A. There were occasions when the water supply was cut off when it
22 could have been running and there were occasions when the United Nations
23 engineers were prevented from repairing electricity lines. But usually
24 these difficulties were overcome, and on the whole, we managed to restore
25 electricity and the water for protracted periods.
1 Q. General, you said "prevent." You meant prevented by the Muslim
2 authorities in Sarajevo?
3 General, do you know --
4 A. It happened occasionally.
5 Q. Again, I have not the answer in the transcript. I am waiting.
6 The answer was --
7 General, do you know if there was a fund, the source fund, which
8 intervened by bringing money to the Sarajevo authorities to restore the
9 utilities that we have just mentioned, water, electricity, gas,
10 et cetera? Do you know that?
11 A. During that time they concentrated -- the source foundation
12 concentrated on the water restoration.
13 Q. General, what do you know about how these funds were being used?
14 General, what do you know about how and which way these funds were being
16 A. There was a water purification plant established in a tunnel, a
17 raid tunnel, to the east of Sarajevo.
18 Q. Thank you, General.
19 General, I would like to ask you other questions but, in order to
20 do so, I would like to give you, with the assistance of the usher, Exhibit
21 139, which was copied on the back, as well, for technical -- for technical
22 error, but it is two times the same exhibit.
23 JUDGE ORIE: It bears an "R" number. Is that -- Mr. Ierace, "R"
24 numbers are usually an indication of confidentiality, is it not?
25 MR. IERACE: You are quite correct, Mr. President, and it may be
1 appropriate to go into closed session because in the time we have left, I
2 probably can't confirm that we have clearance on this document. So to be
3 on the safe side, perhaps we should deal with this in closed court.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will then turn into closed session since we
5 are dealing with a document which appears to be confidential.
6 [Closed session]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
12 Page 10261 – redacted – closed session
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please answer.
9 THE WITNESS: Most of the damage to Sarajevo occurred before I
10 arrived there and could not have been the consequence of accidental
11 firing. In 1994, the structural damage to the city tended to occur
12 around the areas of confrontation, although, of course, the attack
13 against civilians in Dobrinja and the marketplace caused a much higher
14 loss of life than occurred elsewhere on the confrontation line.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you said that --
16 THE WITNESS: So there is a difference between structural damage
17 and civilian casualty.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But if you say that the damage that was done before
19 you arrived could not have been accidental damage, that does not answer
20 the question on whether it was not accidental but -- well, let us say
21 intentional at the confrontation lines or intentional away from the
22 confrontation lines. The question was about to make a separation between
23 the damage near to the confrontation lines or further away from the
24 confrontation lines.
25 Your answer was, "It was not accidental," which does not finally
1 answer the question.
2 THE WITNESS: I was talking prior to 1994. Post 1994 when I was
3 there, during 1994, most of the damage to the city tended to be around the
4 conflict line.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that before 1994, that damage was
6 mainly -- or at least important damage was also away from the
7 confrontation lines?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you for your answer.
10 Mr. Ierace.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.
12 But the question still doesn't have an answer because, in a sense, what I
13 want to know, if most of the damage, even after the first few years of the
14 conflict, seemed to be near the confrontation lines where combats were.
15 And I don't think that the witness answered.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness answered the question in that
17 respect. Yes.
18 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:
20 Q. General you were asked questions in cross-examination about the
21 nature of legitimate military targets, and also whether such targets
22 existed in civilian areas in Sarajevo.
23 What responsibilities does a commander have and what factors
24 should a commander take into account when deciding whether to target a
25 legitimate military object which is situated in a residential area?
1 A. The military commander is required to make the maximum effort to
2 prevent civilian casualties, even though the military deployments may be
3 within civilian areas.
4 Q. Does that decision involve the selection of the type of weaponry
5 to be used when taking out that military object?
6 A. It certainly would have a bearing on that.
7 Q. And in your opinion, is it appropriate in some circumstances,
8 because of the risk of disproportionate civilian exposure, to forego the
9 opportunity to follow through on a legitimate military target?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You were also asked questions as to the intentions of the Serb
12 military leadership during the course of your tenure. The proposition
13 was put to you that the Serbs - I use the words used by the Defence -
14 the Serbs sought, wanted and wished for peace in Sarajevo; to which you
15 replied, "That was generally the case."
16 And earlier you told us that the Serb forces wanted peace because
17 it suited them politically, they controlled 70 per cent of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Did the Serb leadership, in expressing their desire
19 for peace, ever suggest that they would give up any of the 70 per cent
20 that they had taken?
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to
22 object to this question because it is not at all in respect of the fact
23 that what General Galic is charged with. It is not to find out whether 70
24 or 80 per cent were under the control of the Serb military authorities
25 elsewhere in Bosnia, but only to find out whether in Sarajevo, whereas
1 General was in charge for his command, whether there was a wish for a
2 campaign, or the contrary, as the General here indicated, that there was a
3 will for peace.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
5 THE WITNESS: The Serbs could never be described as peacemongers.
6 They were the aggressors. They had taken much of Sarajevo as well as
7 Bosnia. Their reasons for suing for peace in 1994 and trying to develop
8 it from the peace that occurred around Sarajevo to a wider peace in the
9 Balkans, was to take advantage of their military gain. But this does not
10 mean that they were peacemongers. They were not, equally, but the peace
11 agreement around Sarajevo allowed them to withdraw their heavy weapons,
12 required them to withdraw their heavy weapons, which they were able to
13 redeploy to other places such as Gorazde or Bihac, where they were able to
14 intensify the fighting. So a distinction has to be made between a
15 military desire for peace in a particular area and the wider strategic
16 goals, which were to maximise the territorial gains through military
18 Q. You were also asked questions about certain letters that were
19 shown to you from General Milovanovic in the wake of the Markale shelling
20 incident. The thrust of the letters was an offer by the Serb military
21 leadership to partake in a joint investigation with UNPROFOR and with
22 representatives of the Bosnian government army.
23 In the UNPROFOR investigation which did take place, where you told
24 us that experts were brought in, did the Serb military leadership or at
25 least individuals at their -- of their choice within the Serb military,
1 have a role to play in terms of the provision of information and so on?
2 A. With regards to these sorts of attacks, the answer is, we would
3 require them to explain an attack. Usually, they denied it or said that
4 they were responding to Serb attack -- they were responding to Bosnian
5 attacks against them. There was no agreement ever or suggestion, other
6 than from the Serb side, that this Muslim Serb commission should be set
7 up. It would not have been acceptable to the United Nations.
8 Q. Why is that? Why would it not have been acceptable to the United
10 A. Because it would have been seen as the United Nations were
11 abdicating their responsibility as an independent mediator to find out the
12 truth of these matters and that the offer of producing a team to go and
13 make an investigation could, of course, been obscuring the truths of who
14 actually fired that bomb.
15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness be shown two
16 Exhibits P2261 and P2261A. That is the report by UNPROFOR --
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecution
18 was complaining that we were not to producing certain exhibits, and we
19 don't have the copies of this and we are unable to follow. I don't know
20 whether Mr. Ierace can have two exhibits because that is what he would
21 have wanted for himself.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have copies, Mr. Ierace?
23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have two copies, and this is a
24 matter which arises out of cross-examination which is why I didn't have
25 copies before cross-examination. And the copies I have provided are of
1 the cover sheet of the report proper and one particular page that I will
2 take the witness to.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. IERACE: As I was saying earlier, this is a report by UNPROFOR
5 into the Markale -- the report of the Markale investigation.
6 Q. General, I think you now have before you two documents, the
7 report proper and the executive summary. Is that the case?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you please turn to page, I think it is 46, of the report.
10 It is titled "Annexure G, record of meeting, Bosnian Serb representative,
11 13 February, 1994.
12 A. Annex G?
13 Q. "G," yes. If you look towards the top right-hand corner, I think
14 there are handwritten page numbers.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The page I am after is 46. So it reads "46-" what appears to be
17 "66" after that?
18 A. I have it.
19 Q. Would you please take a moment to read that to yourself.
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Is it in effect the record of a meeting that took place at Pale on
22 the 13th of February, 1994, between the team leader of the investigation
23 that is, Colonel Gauthier, and some others, and on the other side with
24 Colonel Cvetkovic - I apologise for my pronunciation - who confirmed that
25 he was the Bosnian Serb representative for the purposes of the UN
1 investigation into the Sarajevo market explosion on the 5th of February?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. Does the record also note that Colonel Gauthier explained to the
4 Colonel what the team were doing and in what ways Colonel Cvetkovic could
5 contribute to that process, and that included the provision of any
6 physical or technical evidence that he wished to offer the team?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. Does the record also indicate that indeed there was information
9 provided by the Colonel to the team and that occurred at Lukavica on the
10 14th of February?
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, line 97.8, but
12 we are talking about a Colonel but because we don't see the little sign
13 which is saying it will be checked later, then the name of the Colonel,
14 could Mr. Ierace tell us which Colonel this is and perhaps spell the name
15 because I can see that Colonel Gauthier Realtime transcript read in error
16 "Gortia"] as he is mentioned in the transcript doesn't exist. This is
17 Colonel Gauthier. And if names could be spelled, that would be a great
19 MR. IERACE:
20 Q. Cvetkovic, and I apologise again for my pronunciation, is
21 C-v-e-t-k-o-v-i-c. Gauthier is G-a-u-t-h-i-e-r and --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think I have heard that. It is indicated that it
23 will be reviewed by the sign just after the words.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, there is a
25 name -- word where there is no name. That is the reason why I am
2 JUDGE ORIE: I see in the question two Colonels mentioned and
3 then, in the next question, it is Colonel Gauthier explained to the
4 Colonel, and I do understand that is then the other Colonel or --
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I thought there would be
6 more Colonels. That is the reason why I intervened.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 THE WITNESS: In reply to the question, it appears that the
9 Colonel Cvetkovic agreed to produce any possible information, to be handed
10 over at a later date. Whether that happened later, I have no idea.
11 MR. IERACE:
12 Q. I direct you to the second last paragraph and, in particular, to
13 the last line, which I think reads: "The latter," that is Colonel
14 Cvetkovic, "agreed to arrange to have such information handed over to the
15 team at Lukavica on 14 February [This occurred at 1600 hours 14 February]"
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Now, does the report conclude by saying, "Colonel Cvetkovic
18 expressed full satisfaction with the information he had been presented and
19 agreed to communicate with the UNPROFOR LO," for liaison officer, "at
20 Lukavica, should he wish any further contact with the team? The team's
21 representatives departed Pale at 2030 hours."
22 A. It does.
23 Q. In other words, was it the case that the Bosnian Serb military,
24 through their nominee, were actively involved at a level of the provision
25 of information, physical items, and also in the sense that they were
1 informed as to the progress and results of the investigation?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must object
3 to this question, particularly with respect to the way that it was
4 phrased, "actively involved," since it does not appear necessarily in the
5 reading of this text, which is -- which implies active involvement as to
6 this operation, and this phrasing seems too direct.
7 MR. IERACE: I am happy to rephrase the question, to save time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because we are having a -- in the beginning of
9 the morning, someone thought that we might have time available today. We
10 certainly have not. So if you would, please.
11 MR. IERACE:
12 Q. Does the report reflect, to the best of your recollection, the
13 degree of involvement of the Bosnian Serb military, through their nominee,
14 in the investigation?
15 A. It does.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have a few more questions. It may
18 be that if Your Honours have questions that we need to go over, but I
19 could probably finish in the matter of a few minutes very quickly.
20 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, I do not know -- this courtroom will
21 be used at a quarter past 2.00. So it is unfortunately -- how much time
22 would you still need? And would the interpreters be ready to -- if it is
23 a matter of a couple of minutes, but let me just first confer with my
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I am afraid it will not be able to finish
2 today, unfortunately.
3 THE WITNESS: I have a difficulty for that because I have to leave
4 on the airplane for other commitments.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would mean that we have to, first of all,
6 ask the --
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if I could assist. I will forego any
8 further questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then if the interpreters could assist us for a couple
10 of more minutes, because there are a few questions from the Bench.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, no problem, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We might be able to conclude today, which is highly
13 preferable, apart from whether it is possible at all.
14 So I will then give an opportunity to Judge Nieto-Navia to put a
15 question to you.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I have only one question about the blue
18 routes, because you said that they were used by the UN convoys for
19 transporting the humanitarian aid, I suppose, but we have some evidence
20 that they were used for people -- people were using the blue routes for
21 entering or going out of the city. Is that true?
22 A. That is not true. The only people who went in and out of the city
23 on the blue routes were elderly people going from Sarajevo to Zenica and
24 back. I think every Tuesday there was a bus which passed an inspection
25 first by the Bosnian government people and then by the Serbs and, they
1 were allowed through. And there was a very limited movement across of
2 injured civilians from time to time. But that is the only routine passage
3 of civilians across that line.
4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi as the one or more questions for you
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
8 would like you please, very briefly, to ask you to clarify for me two
9 points, the first being that I wanted to know whether you rule out the
10 possibility that the nonfunctioning of public services was caused by the
11 attacks. What I understood it, occasionally, the nonfunctioning was
12 caused by operations of the government, actions of the government, of the
13 local authorities. Do you rule out that they were damaged by the firing
14 or the attacks of the Serb forces?
15 A. Both situations occurred. Sometimes they were destroyed by
16 exchange of fire, sometimes by deliberate obstruction.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Now, I would just like you to tell us about the events that took
19 place on the 5th of February known as "Markale market." I am not asking
20 you who is responsible for it, which side, but this event, as a fact, is
21 that true or is it set up, made up, planted by the media -- for the media
22 for propaganda purposes?
23 A. No, this situation, this event, occurred in all the reality that
24 were then reported by the media. It is a fact.
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Then as far as you know,
1 were there wounded, people killed, or no one was killed, no one was
3 A. There were 58 people killed and some hundred people injured in
4 that attack.
5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Thank you, sir.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I have two questions for you. The first, you told us
8 about the answer General Mladic gave on your complaints about the use of
9 weaponry. The answer was that the BiH forces had far more infantry and,
10 therefore, as I understand it, the Bosnian Serbs would use their fire
11 power, shelling, artillery. No, shelling. You could understand this
12 answer in two different ways. The first is that you would shell where
13 the infantry was concentrated, and another understanding of such answer
14 would be that you would shell wherever in order to stop the infantry
15 moving forward, even if they were at the front lines and not where the
16 shelling took place.
17 Which of the two understandings of General Mladic's answer would
18 be the correct one, or is there even a third?
19 A. General Mladic didn't specify what targets he was engaging in
20 response to infantry attack. He merely said: "Our response to infantry
21 attack is shelling," the implication being shelling either against the
22 infantry themselves or other wider targets elsewhere, including possibly
23 civilians, although he did not specify that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But you understood it to be not limited to shelling
25 infantry concentrations?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. That was the implication.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Second question is: You told us that sniping took
3 place from both sides. Was there any difference in targets? I mean,
4 sniping can be directed against civilian individuals or military
5 individuals. Was the sniping, in every respect, the same from both sides?
6 A. The level of sniping was definitely greater by the Serbs. The
7 targets being engaged on both sides, civilian casualties occurred because
8 of the sniping. But again, the greater number of civilians killed were
9 obviously the Bosnians within the city of Sarajevo.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Are you talking about the relative numbers or the --
11 I mean percentages or numbers as such?
12 A. I would say that the number translates in the percentages. The
13 greater number of sniper incidents were by the Bosnian Serb Army into
14 Sarajevo which included civilian casualties, although there were cases of
15 civilian casualties being caused on the Serb side by the Bosnian forces.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you for your clarification.
17 This then concludes your testimony in this court, Sir Michael.
18 May I thank you very much for coming, and I hope you get your plane, that
19 we didn't keep you too long in this courtroom. It is important for us to
20 hear the answers to questions of both parties and the Chamber. Thank you.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, apologise. I
22 was asked by General Galic. Who wanted very exceptionally just to ask one
23 question. He has asked me to ask. This is literally in 30 seconds. The
24 question is if General Rose knew that Serb civilians also lived in
25 Sarajevo where they held their territory, yes or no.
1 JUDGE ORIE: He is permitted to answer that question.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, the Serbs lived in Sarajevo as well. In
4 Grbavica and other places.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then this concludes, finally, your testimony in this
7 court. Once again, thank you very much and I hope you get your plane.
8 Madam Usher, could you please escort Sir Michael out of the
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I respectfully suggest that the
11 Prosecution would have no objection to the exhibits being tendered
12 tomorrow morning, if that would assist.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is certainly a suggestion that I would only
14 be too glad to follow. But I have got two questions -- one question and
15 one remark. Tomorrow, we'll hear the testimony of and cross-examination
16 of the expert Zecevic. The Chamber has decided that the cross-examination
17 certainly will not have to take more than two hours. So that is the time
18 limit imposed upon the Defence.
19 And then my last question is in respect of the witnesses under
20 Rule 92 bis (C). You told us that one of the witnesses would be
21 withdrawn. I haven't seen anything yet. Could you indicate for which
22 witness you are going to submit further information and which witness you
23 will withdraw.
24 MR. IERACE: Lindre will be withdrawn, and we are preparing some
25 submissions which will be filed tomorrow in relation to the balance, and
1 those submissions simply consider the impact of the recent Appeals Chamber
2 judgment to the extent that that judgment states some principles of
3 general application, 7-1 and 7-3 cases.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I was talking about 92 bis (C), that is
5 Bajram Sopi and Cavcic. There must be some follow up, I think, and I
6 thought that you would withdraw that -- one of these witnesses.
7 MR. IERACE: No, I am sorry, Mr. President
8 JUDGE ORIE: It is a misunderstanding. Thank you very much.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is just to
10 clarify things. If tomorrow we have the possibility of having our expert
11 here in the courtroom at the time of the examination-in-chief of Mr.
12 Zecevic tomorrow, it goes without saying that we will have to ask for time
13 after the examination-in-chief because it doesn't serve to anything if we
14 have an expert and if we cannot listen to what he -- his opinion and what
15 he has heard.
16 MR. IERACE: I have no objection to that, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You will get the necessary time. But Mr. Zecevic is
18 introduced as an expert witness.
19 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But he will testify, it is not just the report
21 submitted? What could we expect?
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the evidence in chief will be very
23 brief. I expect it will be taken in the time taken by Robert Donia.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that is at least clear to us. Then I think
25 especially the interpreters who have hard times these days, I am fully
1 aware of that, for their assistance and for granting us another quarter of
2 an hour. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the morning.
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before you rise for the day, I
4 have in mind. If I could say this cryptically, some comments that you
5 made yesterday or the day before about the need from time to time to
6 intervene. That may apply tomorrow, in terms of limiting appropriately,
7 and in that way assisting with witnesses. I simply indicate that at this
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
11 2.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
12 the 21st day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.