1 Tuesday, 25 June 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 3.08 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom. Madam
6 Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 General Galic, we were informed about the reasons of your late
11 arrival. We hope that it means that proper attention is given to your
12 medical condition.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you, first of
14 all, for your attention, the attention of the Chamber and the
15 administration of the detention unit and of the specialist who treated me.
16 Because it was made possible for me to get what I needed most. If you
17 will allow me I will say it. This was a routine examination at the
18 specialist and we spoke to him about the evolution of my sickness and the
19 problems connected to it. And we had consultations. I asked him
20 questions and got answers, so I will not burden you with that, unless of
21 course you are interested, in which case, I can tell you. Basically my
22 state has deteriorated slightly, but we have remained on this that I will
23 take it as long as I can until the operation is carried out.
24 That is in a nutshell.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, we cannot change your condition. The
1 only thing we can do is to take care that proper attention is paid to your
2 condition. So I do understand that this is the case. Apart from that, I
3 would like to know whether you feel fit enough to continue at this very
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I feel capable of continuing. For
6 the time being, there are no problems, but you have told me that I should
7 inform you if I have problems and that you will rule and I will stick by
8 what you said. But, I hope, as you can see, what I am like, so I hope
9 that I will be able to continue. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, General Galic. Please be
12 Ms. Pilipovic, the Chamber still owes you a response to the
13 objection made yesterday, objection to the admission into evidence of the
14 report of the expert witness, Dr. Turner. The report of the expert
15 witness, Dr. Turner, is admitted into evidence. The expert has, in
16 general terms, given his opinion on what would be relevant factors to
17 cause extreme fear, being extreme fear the main element of the definition
18 he used for the concept of terror. He explained different levels of fear.
19 He further elaborated on the symptoms and disorders caused by and the
20 response of human beings to a state of extreme fear.
21 He paid attention to the recovery from such fear and elaborated on
22 what type of action would potentially contribute to the induction of
23 extreme fear. Part of the report gives information on what other scholars
24 in the field have published on fear, mainly in relation to posttraumatic
25 stress disorders they observed sometimes specifically to in a situation of
1 war. The expert has been provided with descriptions of the events in
2 Sarajevo, such as contained in the indictment and extracts of some of the
3 evidence presented to this Chamber.
4 The expert has used this information to select the type of events
5 he concentrated on in the parts of his report where he more specifically
6 links such type of events to the effect it might have on a civilian
7 population in a situation of war. If the events as described in the
8 material the expert was provided with would in part or in its entirety be
9 proven these parts of the report could assist to that extent the Chamber
10 in its understanding of the evidence presented to it.
11 The Defence has had the opportunity to bring whatever it deemed to
12 be relevant, additional type of facts, to the attention of the expert
13 witness and ask him what effect such type of facts would have on his
14 findings. The Chamber will consider what probative value the expert
15 report has and will take into careful consideration to what extent the
16 type of facts, at least where the expert based his opinion on such type of
17 facts, in reality occurred in Sarajevo. This concerns the evaluation of
18 the evidence and does not effect its admissibility.
19 That is the ruling on the expert report of Dr. Turner.
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I think
22 that I should raise this point since we are going to speak about another
23 one of your decisions. These are to do with the keeping of the
24 transcripts, to draw the attention of the booths and of the Chamber to
25 what Dr. Turner said, apparently was badly translated but of course I am
1 not an expert to the matter. I am referring to the page 104, line 22, if
2 you will allow me, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, in line 22, Mr. Turner
5 said in French and I am going to quote in French: "What I said in the
6 times of war, the civilians who are involved in the war, if these
7 civilians die near a military target or killed near a military target,
8 perhaps they will be affected by this experience." And so on and so on.
9 It goes without saying that here this is a contradiction, a surprising
10 contradiction, and there are a number of these. And I wanted to draw the
11 attention to this one. It seems obvious that if we die, we are going to
12 be affected, but we have to be extremely careful about the equivalence of
13 the transcripts. For this reason, I should have intervened last time, but
14 I didn't, because I was focussing on what the witness was saying.
15 I thank you for your attention.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did you check the original English transcript because
17 it is now translated again, your words now in English, and what you
18 actually say is that once you died, you might not experience anything any
19 more. But did you also check what was in the original English text so
20 that we can now clarify the issue. Yes.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. The meaning is
22 not much clearer in the language of the witness but it is comprehensible
23 in English, yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it would be the same in French and English,
25 and both incomprehensible for you.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, not at all, it is
2 comprehensible in English and it was a problem seemingly in relation to
3 the interpretation. But it is perfectly acceptable or relatively
4 acceptable in English. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your clarification. I will try
6 to look it up, but I have different pages now, looking back to the
7 transcript of yesterday. But I will try to find it and check the English
8 words used by the expert witness.
9 Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, two things before that happens.
11 Firstly, I have the redacted report of Mr. Zecevic to be tendered. Mr.
12 Stamp is present to speak to that, if required. A copy has been provided
13 to the Defence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are there any --
15 MR. IERACE: P3723.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes and no, Mr. President.
17 Yes and no, because what I am being told here is not quite the truth.
18 This document has not been redacted. It has not been redacted.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please try to solve that during the next
20 break and then I take it that the Chamber will be provided with the
21 redacted --
22 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. We will speak to Mr.
23 Piletta-Zanin during the next break and no doubt be the wiser for the
24 experience. Mr. President, I understand that Mr. Piletta-Zanin wants to
25 raise an issue that will take some five minutes before we call Witness AD.
1 So perhaps, if he wishes to do so.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Quite.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, the
5 Defence received recently four new statements --
6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
8 MR. IERACE: I apologise for interrupting. But in anticipation of
9 what my friend might be about to discuss, given the reference to the
10 number "four" I wonder if this is appropriately dealt with in closed
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think we are not yet in closed question. I don't
13 see closed session on my screen.
14 MR. IERACE: I should speak more clearly, Mr. President --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand, you would like to raise the
16 matter being raised in closed session.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, why?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well it depends on -- well, I do not know the
19 content. If it is about witnesses that are protected, then we preferably
20 should do so. If not -- Mr. Ierace, could you --
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if the issue that Mr. Piletta-Zanin
22 wishes to raise concerns four statements which were disclosed to him
23 yesterday, I think it appropriate that that be dealt with in closed
24 session because it inevitable will raise an issue which would clearly
25 require a closed session hearing.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Would you agree, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, or not?
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not sure
3 to which extent this witness is -- witnesses who will be protected by any
4 measures. Could Mr. Ierace perhaps give us some more information, however
5 little it may be.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... whether it should
7 be in closed session or not, in closed session, and if what Mr. Ierace
8 tells us would not convince the Chamber that it should be dealt with in
9 closed session we return to open session and then deal with the matter.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We will now turn into closed session.
12 [Closed session]
12 Pages 10467-10473 – redacted – closed session
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session now.
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President I have a timetable issue to raise. The
22 Prosecution was informed earlier today that the artillery expert, Mr.
23 Kovac, is no longer available on the 29th and 30th of July. That
24 necessitates us proposing an earlier date, and we have in mind the 10th
25 and if the Trial Chamber is sitting, the 12th of July. It is difficult
1 for the Prosecution to arrange a date for this witness because of his
2 particular interpretation requirements. He will give his evidence in the
3 Hungarian language. Therefore, we thought it prudent to alert the Trial
4 Chamber to our proposal, and indeed the Defence, since the Defence will
5 presumably want to have its expert attend on the same date as Mr. Kovac.
6 So, Mr. President, I would be very grateful if the Defence could
7 advise us by, say, tomorrow if that date is suitable to their expert so
8 that we can arrange for a Hungarian interpreter to be available on those
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you be able to inform by
11 tomorrow whether the 10th and/or perhaps the 12th of July would be
12 suitable for your expert?
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am grateful, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it was you suggested on the 10th of
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: As we indicated before, Mr. Ierace, whether the 12th
18 will be available or not, we will only know by the end of this week. So
19 the 10th we will be sitting, but whether we also will be sitting on the
20 12th is still uncertain. Yes.
21 Then, if the Prosecution would be ready to call the next witness,
22 we will now turn into closed session again.
23 [Closed session]
12 Pages 10476-10539 – redacted – closed session
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
17 7.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
18 the 26th day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.