Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11578

1 Monday, 15 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.17 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 We start a bit late. It is partly due to technical problems with

11 the computer system, but also partly due to the late arrival of a

12 witness. If the Prosecution could manage that the witnesses appear on

13 time in the morning - because the last couple of minutes we had to wait

14 for the witness - this would be highly appreciated by the Chamber.

15 Since we had no procedural issues to discuss, we just can start

16 right away with the witness. Your next witness, you call, Mr. Ierace, is?

17 MR. IERACE: Major General Abdel-Razek.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam usher, could you please escort -- yes, Ms.

19 Pilipovic.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

21 just like to tell the Chamber that it was half an hour ago that I was

22 given a supplemental information sheet regarding the -- an interview

23 which was conducted with Major General Abdel-Razek, but it was not in

24 B/C/S so I was not able to tell General Galic about it. So perhaps I

25 was not able to really get ready for this. Perhaps the learned colleagues

Page 11579

1 can tell us when exactly we can get the translation, please.

2 JUDGE ORIE: This is a procedural issue. I think you were asked

3 whether there were any procedural issues, and there were not. I take it

4 that Mr. Ierace will inform you.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Mr. Abdel-Razek, I take it.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

8 JUDGE ORIE: The Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to

9 make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth

10 and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to make that solemn

11 declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. God may be my

14 witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Abdel-Razek. Please be

16 seated.

17 May I ask the interpreter also to stand up since you are supposed

18 to make the solemn declaration as well. I take it, Madam Registrar, do we

19 have all the personal data of the interpreter? If not, can you please

20 tell us your name and then make the solemn declaration.

21 THE INTERPRETER: My name is Sabri, and I solemnly declare that I

22 will independently and impartially, and with full respect for the duty of

23 confidentiality, make my work.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

25 In the booth, we have difficulties of seeing who is exactly in

Page 11580

1 the booth, but we hear a new voice, and since another language is

2 involved, may I take it that all the interpreters in the booth, also the

3 new ones, have made the solemn declaration before they started working in

4 the booth?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your information.

7 Mr. Ierace, then please proceed.

8 WITNESS: HUSSEIN ALI ABDEL-RAZEK

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Ierace:

11 Q. General, is your full name Hussein Ali Abdel-Razek?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were you born on the 3rd of July, 1944, in Egypt?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you graduate from the military academy in 1966?

16 A. Exactly.

17 Q. Over your military career, have you served variously as a platoon

18 commander, company commander, battalion commander, brigade commander and

19 division commander?

20 A. Exactly, yes.

21 Q. Have you also served in combat in the 1967 war, the war of

22 attrition and the 1973 war, all in the Middle East?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you -- have you also served in various UN missions over the

25 years?

Page 11581

1 A. Just in Angola and Sarajevo.

2 Q. And indeed, in terms of Sarajevo, were -- did you serve as Sector

3 Commander in Sarajevo from the 21st of August, 1992, to the 20th of

4 February, 1993?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you replace Major General MacKenzie as Sarajevo Sector

7 commander?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I think I heard you say "yes," but that wasn't caught by the

10 transcript. Now it is.

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Now, in terms of the structure of Sector Sarajevo, were there

13 three military battalions, being a French battalion commanded by Colonel

14 Sartre, a Ukrainian Battalion and an Egyptian Battalion?

15 A. Exactly.

16 Q. Was the strength of each battalion around 500 to 600?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did your staff include as one of your special political advisors,

19 Mr. Mik Magnusson?

20 A. The staff changed routinely. Mik Magnusson worked for me for a

21 while. Fred Eckhart [phoen], also.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted].

Page 11582

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I wonder if we could briefly go into

2 closed session. I think it will save time, ultimately.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will turn into closed session and,

4 therefore, unfortunately I have to ask those who are in the public gallery

5 to leave for one second. Yes, I know, but, nevertheless it is a matter

6 which has got hardly anything to do with his witness, but it is a

7 procedural issue we have to discuss in closed session.

8 [Closed session]

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11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are in open session, so that also means that

13 the public gallery is open again. We will just wait until the -- those

14 who want to attend this hearing have had an opportunity to resume their

15 seats. Since that has been taken care of, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE:

17 Q. General, in terms of the daily functioning of your office and

18 indeed the senior command levels of UNPROFOR, were there any daily

19 meetings?

20 A. The normal daily routine within UN command: A sector commander

21 briefing meeting takes place at 7.00 in the morning. The meeting takes

22 about half an hour, during which we review the situation that evolved the

23 day before and also the intended plans for the same day. We would also

24 discuss any obstacles that stood in the way of implementing the daily

25 work, and then accordingly, I would give my instructions to the staff

Page 11584

1 officers. This is the daily routine followed every day, every morning.

2 Q. Did the meeting attendees include the senior military officer --

3 I am sorry, the senior military observer?

4 A. Yes. The senior observer habitually attended the meeting with the

5 staff officers.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, when you arrived in Sarajevo, was there any

7 activity in the city in the form of shooting and the landing of artillery

8 and mortar shells?

9 A. At the beginning, there were no sounds, there were no skirmishes,

10 there was no combat, in fact. But I was told that there was a skirmish in

11 the morning of my arrival and a Ukrainian soldier was shot dead during

12 that skirmish. But when I was sitting in my office, I could hear rounds

13 being fired. And I remember that I was talking to my deputy at that time

14 and I said to him, "This is my welcome ceremony."

15 Q. General, during the time that you were in Sarajevo, was there ever

16 a day when you did not hear the sound of shooting and shells impacting in

17 the city?

18 A. Yes. Yes. The fighting was not daily, did not take place daily.

19 They were intermittent. Sometimes they were very extensive. Sometimes

20 they were on a much lower scale.

21 Q. As part of your responsibilities, did you meet with General Galic?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. How often did you do that during your stay in Sarajevo?

24 A. We met on several occasions, and when there was a host of problems

25 or problems multiplied, we met on regular basis, to the point where we

Page 11585

1 would agree that we would meet once a week. That is what exactly

2 happened, but because of our schedules, we could not maintain the same

3 rhythm of meetings and we only met when the situation necessitated such a

4 meeting.

5 Q. How often was that? In other words, how often did you actually

6 meet him?

7 A. We met every 10 days, every 15 days. There were times where we

8 would not meet for 20 days.

9 Q. All right. Where would you have those meetings with him?

10 A. We met at his headquarters in Lukavica.

11 Q. Would you typically take any staff with you to those meetings?

12 A. I was keen at all times to be accompanied by my deputy and the

13 Chief of Staff of the sector and the civil affairs advisor, and sometimes

14 I was accompanied by a representative of UNHCR, when there is an issue

15 that related to the work of UNHCR.

16 Q. Were you ever accompanied to those meetings by Colonel Sartre?

17 A. Yes. Colonel Sartre came on occasions. Primarily, he was in

18 charge of the coordination of the trips to and back from headquarters.

19 He coordinated the security situation, the security arrangements with the

20 various parties, and at times he accompanied me when there is or there

21 were issues relating to the work of his battalion in the sector.

22 Q. All right. Now, did you have the assistance of an interpreter or

23 interpreters when you met with General Galic?

24 A. Interpreters always were provided by General Galic. If my memory

25 serves me right, there were two girls who alternated on the interpretation

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Page 11587

1 work, and I must admit their work was good.

2 Q. When you say, "their work was good," do you mean that the quality

3 of their interpreting, as far as you knew, was good?

4 A. I believed that the interpretation was sufficient and conveyed the

5 message that I wanted to get to him. And their interpretation of what he

6 said gave me the impression that what he was saying was in the context of

7 the issues we were discussing.

8 Q. Did you ever have -- I withdraw that.

9 Did you ever make any protests to General Galic in relation to the

10 activities of his subordinates?

11 A. Yes. This was often the case. I always said to him, "Last night

12 was a difficult night for all of us. We spent most of the time last night

13 in bunkers." Then we moved on to discuss other issues that we needed to

14 raise with Galic and his command.

15 Q. General, the way your answer was interpreted was: "I always said

16 to him, 'Last night was a difficult night for all of us.'" Did you mean

17 "always" or did you mean "once," or something else?

18 A. When I meet him, that is -- I say, I am using that as an example,

19 but that is not always the case.

20 Q. Yes, thank you. All right.

21 Staying with that example, why did you spend most of the previous

22 night in a bunker, and whereabouts was that bunker?

23 A. In the PTT building there are underground floors, and we used one

24 of these floors as a bunker, as a shelter, when there were skirmishes,

25 when there was fighting, and we felt the building might be affected as a

Page 11588

1 result of the fighting. A siren sounded and we all hurried to the lower

2 floor. We spent long hours in that shelter. We did not return to our

3 offices, to our usual places, until the fighting has died down.

4 Q. The PTT building at that stage was the UN headquarters and

5 included your office; is that correct?

6 A. Exactly, yes.

7 Q. Did General Galic ever explain to you why he was, through his

8 subordinates, shelling near or at the PTT building?

9 A. At the start, there was a denial of the fact that his forces were

10 responsible for the shelling. He always said that is the other side, the

11 other party, who was doing the shelling and were trying to implicate us in

12 the process of the shelling. But when I reviewed the reports coming from

13 the checkpoints, and most of these reports are within -- at the disposal

14 of the UN, these reports showed clearly that the shelling came from the

15 Serbian forces, the Serb forces. And when I insisted on stopping the

16 shelling, he said to me: "You allow the other side to fire from the side,

17 from the perimeter of the PTT building, and when we respond, some of the

18 rounds might fall close to the PTT building." He said to me, "It is your

19 responsibility to stop the other party, the other side, to stop the

20 shelling." That is the way he dealt with us when it came to discussing

21 the shelling.

22 I personally took the matter upon myself and discussed the issue

23 with the Bosnian side, and I said to them that if they did not stop such

24 acts, which actually took place at the beginning of my term, then we would

25 take the appropriate measures in this regard, and that we were going to

Page 11589

1 tell press and the media about what was actually happening. As a result

2 of that, they stopped. However, the PTT building was the target of

3 shelling every now and then.

4 Q. Do you mean after the firing by the Bosnians stopped, every now

5 and then shells would still land on or near the building from the side

6 controlled by the Serb forces?

7 A. Exactly.

8 Q. All right. Now, without going into too much detail, was there an

9 incident involving your secretary?

10 A. Yes. Actually, my secretary was having a break. And the shelling

11 took place on the building, and I was told that my secretary was affected

12 and she was evacuated to the headquarters hospital. I went to see her,

13 and the doctor recommended that she should be evacuated to a specialised

14 hospital specialising in nerves or neurology. And we made sure that she

15 was evacuated and sent to Zagreb the following day.

16 Q. Whereabouts on the building did that shell land?

17 A. It landed on the roof, on the roof of the building. And the

18 shrapnel went to the other floors where the girls used to live. And

19 unfortunately, my secretary was there and she was wounded or affected.

20 Q. What was the ethnic background of your secretary?

21 A. She was Serb. I used to have two secretaries working with me;

22 both of them were Serbs, and they were the best members of my staff. They

23 used to cooperate with me and give me a great deal of help.

24 Q. Did General Galic ever justify shelling the PTT building by

25 claiming there was a munitions factory in it?

Page 11590

1 A. I do not recall that sir. However, as I was describing to you, I

2 know the building perfectly well and I used to tour the building every

3 hour. I did not see -- I have not received any information to that

4 effect.

5 Q. You said earlier that you took refuge from the shelling in the

6 underground floors. Did that involve you passing through the basement or

7 did that, indeed, include the basement?

8 A. The basement was the shelter in itself. It was sort of many

9 floors, the lowest part of the building. So there were floors on the

10 ground level and some below the ground level. So the underground level or

11 floors, those floors, one of them, was used by the communication unit

12 and it was serviced by a Dutch company. And this other floor was occupied

13 by the medical unit and this was a French company. Another floor was

14 divided in two parts: One for the soldiers brigade servicing the service

15 unit, and the second part of the building or the floor was used by us as a

16 shelter. And there used to be an office for the commander of the sector,

17 equipped with the communication tools and equipments for such purposes.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. There is yet another external part which was used as a parking lot

20 for the United Nations cars and vehicles. Because as you know, the

21 building was large.

22 Q. Did anyone ever suggest to you -- I withdraw that.

23 In any conversation you had when you were in Sarajevo, did anyone

24 ever suggest to you that there was a munitions factory somewhere in the

25 PTT building?

Page 11591

1 A. I do not recall that, sir.

2 Q. All right.

3 Coming back to the protests that you made to General Galic, you

4 have told us now about your protests to do with the shelling of and near

5 the PTT building. What else, if anything, did you protest to him about

6 during your time in Sarajevo?

7 A. There were several issues, obviously. I do recall, for instance,

8 that there were some obstacles erected by his forces on the roads. On the

9 road to the airport, they used to erect barriers because, as you are

10 aware, the main mandate of the United Nations in Sarajevo was to protect

11 the airport so that it can function properly. So our activities are from

12 the headquarters to the airport. So I put this matter to Galic. This

13 took some time so that he can change his opinion or idea about this

14 container.

15 Q. General, can I interrupt you there? Did any of your protests to

16 General Galic over the time you were in Sarajevo involve civilian

17 casualties, the topic of civilian casualties?

18 A. As a commander of the United Nations forces, I received reports on

19 the casualties from the mass media and through also the reports, the

20 reports that we received from official quarters. I used to talk about

21 this issue to him. I used to tell him that there are heavy losses among

22 civilians, in addition to the fact that we were hindered in our work as a

23 United Nations, we were not able to operate. And we incurred losses also

24 as a UN. So I used to talk to him in this way concerning the shelling

25 incidents. I also talked to him about the shelling of the hospital, and

Page 11592

1 many other similar issues. We used to talk in a general way. There was

2 shelling incident on the city. This shelling affected the civilian

3 population and it does also impact on our work a great deal.

4 And many times, on many occasions, we were not able to communicate

5 and to communicate with other units of the United Nations, either from the

6 PTT building or in another battalion, in the various camps of the

7 battalions, Tito Barracks, for example, and the Egyptian Battalion. I

8 don't quite recall the other names.

9 Q. How many times did you protest to him about the shelling of the

10 city?

11 A. I don't recall the exact figure, sir. But I do believe in many

12 meetings we had, I did raise this issue. I used to raise this issue as a

13 matter of fact.

14 Q. You referred to the shelling of the hospital. Which hospital was

15 that?

16 A. The main hospital in the city. I don't remember the name of the

17 hospital. A great deal of time has elapsed since then. But I believe

18 that during the Secretary-General visit to the Sarajevo Sector and as a

19 result of the various letters and reports that we've received, the

20 Secretary-General asked to visit the hospital then, and he did actually

21 visit the hospital. And he noticed how the hospital was affected and he

22 listened to the problem -- various reports on the problems of the

23 electricity cut. It was a highly complicated issue, indeed.

24 Q. As best as you can recollect, how many hospitals were there in the

25 city?

Page 11593

1 A. I do apologise. I don't recall that.

2 Q. What was General Galic's response to you when you complained about

3 the shelling of the city?

4 A. General Galic sometimes used to deny the shelling incident. He

5 denied the fact that his forces were responsible for the shelling

6 incidents. And he used to say that they -- the other party did that. He

7 used to say that they did that in order to attract the support of the

8 international community, and sympathy. I should like to say here that

9 that was the response I used to get from all parties.

10 Q. Did you ever hear, while you were in Sarajevo, of any

11 investigation by UN forces which found that the source of fire for a

12 shelling incident in the city was also in the city? In other words, as

13 far as you know, was there ever a UN investigation which established that

14 Bosnian civilians were shelled by Bosnian forces?

15 A. I used to hear this from the Serb party only. However, in my

16 meetings with the staff, we used to monitor the various reports emanating

17 from the military observers. Those reports clarified from where the fire

18 came. And you can go back to these reports because we used to send these

19 reports to the command in Zagreb.

20 Q. When you say, "Those reports clarified from where the fire came,"

21 in terms of the shelling of the city, what did those reports indicate as

22 the source of fire?

23 A. They pointed to the fact that the fire -- most of the fire came

24 from the party where the Serb troops were positioned.

25 Q. Did General Galic ever discuss the shelling of the city with you

Page 11594

1 as a possible option or as a possible course open to him?

2 A. I apologise. The question was not clear to me.

3 Q. You told us that you protested to General Galic about the city

4 being shelled. Did he ever raise the shelling of the city with you in any

5 context as a possible future course of action that he might take?

6 A. He stated in a clear fashion that the other party -- if the other

7 party continued in firing his troops or against his troops, he shall

8 continue in attacking them. I do recall quite clearly that he said,

9 during one of those meetings I had with him, he said, "I shall make them

10 live difficult times."

11 And I told him then, "But we are there, and we are also suffering

12 from this." Can you imagine that I was unable to move my troops because

13 of this shelling, and from time to time, I used to send reports containing

14 information about losses incurred. So I told him that this shelling was

15 painful and did have a great deal of effects, and the shelling does not

16 help in any way in maintaining stability in the sector.

17 Q. You mentioned earlier the special responsibility that the UN had

18 for the airport. Did you ever receive any reports of civilian casualties

19 in the area of the airport?

20 A. This area was an area that witnessed intensive firing activities,

21 an exchange of fire, and the French Battalion actually was -- incurred a

22 great deal of casualties. Civilians also were crossing the runway from

23 Butmir to the city and vice versa. Some of the civilians were killed;

24 some were injured and wounded as a result of the firing activities from

25 the Serb party. I did raise this issue with General Galic, and on many

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1 occasions I asked Mr. Sartre to contact him in order to discuss this

2 matter with him. And this issue was a source of friction and tension.

3 And people, because of their difficulties, they used to take great deal of

4 risk in order to go and see their families, to be reunited with their

5 family members.

6 So a great deal of casualties did occur when they used to go

7 through those roads, despite all our efforts to reduce this tension. But

8 from time to time, we used to hear reports saying that civilians continued

9 crossing those roads. And every day we received reports, telling us that

10 a lady was killed with her child while she was trying to cross, and

11 sometimes three bodies were discovered in one given place. And many

12 casualties took place.

13 Q. All right. Did you ever protest yourself to General Galic about

14 civilians being shot as they crossed the airfield by his forces?

15 A. Yes, I did talk about this with him. And he was adamant on the

16 fact that he will continue to stop this movement by all means, using all

17 means. And he said the other party should put an end to these activities,

18 and apparently he did have some doubt as to those movements. They might

19 be for military purposes.

20 Q. Now, when did those conversations take place with General Galic?

21 I appreciate it is a long time ago. Perhaps your memory will allow you to

22 indicate whether they were towards the beginning of your time there or

23 in the middle or in the end, or in some similar fashion you could assist

24 us?

25 A. I believe that it was close to my departure time, actually.

Page 11597

1 Q. In relation to -- I withdraw that.

2 Was it one conversation or more than one conversation where he

3 gave that response to your protest about the shooting of civilians at the

4 airport?

5 A. As far as I can recall, I believe that I have talked to him once

6 about this specific issue. However, I did delegate the authority to the

7 head of the French Battalion, delegate the authority to discuss this issue

8 with him.

9 Q. All right. I will leave it at that point for now.

10 Now, while you were in Sarajevo, did you notice whether, as far as

11 you could determine, civilians were driving their cars, in other words,

12 civilian cars?

13 A. When times were quiet, there were movements. Cars were used and

14 bicycles also were used. And then when things were quiet and calm, life

15 seemed ordinary and natural. We used to meet with people going in the

16 streets, taking their cars or taking their bicycles, and these things were

17 changed only by the shelling incidents that took place from time to time.

18 And as I said previously, skirmishes did not take place all the

19 time.

20 Q. Where, if you know, did civilians obtain fuel for their cars?

21 A. Obviously, they used to have oil in the city. I recall some of

22 them told me that in the Holiday Inn they had a great deal of reserves of

23 fuel. However, I don't know exactly how they used to manage this issue.

24 Q. Were there any reports to you of a black market in fuel in

25 Sarajevo operating during the time that you were there?

Page 11598

1 A. As far as I can recall, there was an issue within the UN and I

2 knew that armed vehicles, the BTR used by the Ukrainian Battalion, they

3 -- they used to sell fuel outside Sarajevo when they used to go in order

4 to secure the caravans of relief and to protect the relief convoys. They

5 used to buy other things in order to sell them. It was something which

6 was not quite normal and is outside the realm of discipline. In that

7 specific battalion, we used to have problems. Some were accused, some of

8 the people in that battalion, were accused of having stolen a car.

9 Therefore, I set up an inquiry commission and I found out that the deputy

10 of that battalion was involved in all these issues.

11 And I recommended that he should be repatriated.

12 Q. Do you know if the oil was only sold outside Sarajevo or whether

13 it was sold inside Sarajevo as well?

14 A. Outside Sarajevo, as far as I recall. I should like to clarify

15 one point here. Fuel used by tanks cannot be used by cars or vehicles.

16 Q. Thank you for that.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there is an aspect of this witness's

18 evidence that I think should be given in closed session. I imagine it

19 will take in the order of 10 minutes. So perhaps it will take us through

20 to the first break.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will then into closed session.

22 [Closed session]

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4 JUDGE ORIE: And we will have a break until 11.00. And could

5 someone take care that those who were in the public gallery will also be

6 informed that we are in open session again and that we will resume at

7 11.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, now really, to everyone. Glad to see

11 that you are there, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

13 MR. IERACE:

14 Q. General, this morning I asked you whether General Galic ever

15 raised in his meetings with you the shelling of the city as a possible

16 future course of action that he might take. You replied as follows: "He

17 stated in a clear fashion that the other party -- if the other party

18 continued in firing his troops or against his troops, he shall continue in

19 attacking them. I do recall quite clearly that he said, during one of

20 those meetings I had with him, he said, 'I shall make them live difficult

21 times.'"

22 At least in the translation, that answer is open to a reference

23 by General Galic to attacking the Bosnian government forces rather than

24 shelling the city. Can you assist us further as to what it was that

25 General Galic said?

Page 11603

1 A. He was not specific about who he was going to shell. He said, "I

2 am going to attack them, I am going to hit them," but he was not specific

3 about who he was going to attack. But when we have shells landing next

4 to us, there is all likelihood that they would land on the PTT building,

5 on military positions, and on civilians.

6 Q. When was it that he said: "I shall make them live difficult

7 times"? Towards the beginning, the middle or the end of your tenure?

8 A. When I started my job, the situation was extremely difficult. The

9 three months -- the first three months of my tenure were extremely

10 difficult. And I travelled between the Bosnian and Serb headquarters, and

11 I was trying at the same time to calm the situation and prevent any danger

12 from afflicting the civilians.

13 I have to admit the first three months were extremely difficult

14 for me.

15 Q. I am asking you when it was approximately that General Galic said

16 to you the words, "I shall make them live difficult times"?

17 A. I cannot really exactly remember when these things were said.

18 When I spoke about the difficult times and difficult situation started

19 with the beginning of my tenure, beginning of my term, around August,

20 September, October, something like that.

21 Q. Thank you for that. When you travelled to Lukavica, did you

22 notice whether or not there was any artillery or any mortars in place in

23 the complex? By "in place," I mean ready to fire.

24 A. On route to Lukavica, it was very easy to cross the road leading

25 to the airport into Lukavica. It was very easy, even to a layman, to

Page 11604

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Page 11605

1 realise there were mortars, there were tanks, there were armoured

2 vehicles. And in Lukavica proper, we visited some of the points where

3 observers operated on the Serb side and that was during the trip conducted

4 by Mr. Golding. I accompanied him in a visit to some of the posts to see

5 where the observers were, how they operated, and all these posts that we

6 visited were in the perimeter of Lukavica. It was abundantly clear to us

7 that there was artillery positions.

8 Q. All right. Can I interrupt you there. At any of the meetings

9 that you had with General Galic, were there politicians present?

10 A. In some of the meetings there was one man, the status of whom I

11 did not know. He attended these meetings on a regular basis. Other

12 meetings were attended by Ms. Plavsic. There were other meetings with the

13 presence of UN leadership: Mr. Golding, General Nambiar, and other top UN

14 officials. I used to accompany these individuals to the Serb command.

15 Q. Now, you have told us that Mrs. Plavsic was present with

16 General Galic.

17 A. In some of the meetings, yes, she was present.

18 Q. Did you ever see General Galic present with Dr. Karadzic or any

19 other political Serb leader?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The question is leading.

22 Names are being quoted and so on, and perhaps the General's memory is

23 being forced here.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please rephrase the question in such a way

25 that it is in a more general way put to the witness, whether one of the

Page 11606

1 political -- those belonging to the political leadership would have been

2 present.

3 MR. IERACE:

4 Q. Apart from Mrs. Plavsic, do you recall any other meetings that you

5 attended where there were present General Galic and senior Serb political

6 leaders?

7 A. Most of my meetings were of military nature. However, there was a

8 person, an individual, who was present there all the time, the status of

9 whom I do not know. I did not ask him who he was, what his position was,

10 but he was there with us all the time. That person was there, and as I

11 said, the status of whom I do not know, I am not aware of.

12 Q. Now, you mentioned your last meeting with General Galic was at

13 Pale. Where was your second last meeting with General Galic?

14 A. In Lukavica, I think. The only other time that I met

15 General Galic in Pale was when I was going to say good-bye. I met him

16 with the Prime Minister, Dr. Lukic.

17 Q. I want to ask you questions about the second last meeting. Was

18 anything said at the second last meeting on the topic of civilians being

19 shelled or shot in Sarajevo?

20 A. I cannot exactly remember the items that were on the agenda at

21 that meeting. However, every time I met General Galic, I raised the

22 questions relating to the difficulties that we are confronting. I said

23 that we were coming under pressure from the other side and has been

24 hindering our movement and our work. These were the points that were

25 raised in every meeting, practically. I cannot really pinpoint at what

Page 11607

1 meeting what points were raised.

2 Q. Finally, was there any meeting that you had at Lukavica at any

3 time during which artillery or mortars, or both, were being fired in close

4 proximity to your meeting place?

5 A. Yes. There were occasions when this happened.

6 Q. Was there any occasion when that happened that you said something

7 to General Galic about it?

8 A. As a military man, I understood that there were forces engaged at

9 the time and I said to him, "That's an example of the situation that we

10 had to live under in Sarajevo."

11 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes

12 examination-in-chief.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving the opportunity to the Defence to

14 cross-examine the witness, has the matter been solved to which was raised

15 by Ms. Pilipovic at the beginning of the testimony of the witness?

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have spoken to Mr. Piletta-Zanin

17 about that. I have explained that the changes were made last night and

18 that the supplemental information sheet was available for the first time

19 this morning. I have also assisted Mr. Piletta-Zanin by pointing out the

20 one change, I think, is of significance.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. That is more or less

24 true, although I have to say that I did not receive the information

25 yesterday which would have allowed me to look at it more closely. And now

Page 11608

1 General Galic has still not been able to see what this is all about since,

2 even if it is according to the Prosecution there is only one

3 modification, important modification has to be done, the Defence has not

4 had time to read it, on one hand, not even in English, and obviously not

5 in Serbian. And there are certain things that only General Galic knows.

6 And therefore, we are really -- it is impossible for us technically to

7 proceed with this.

8 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecution

10 would need to give us a written translation. I don't know how long they

11 would need to have this done.

12 JUDGE ORIE: How much text are we talking about?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Four pages.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Four pages. Yes.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, could I respectfully submit that I

16 think it appropriate that Your Honours be aware of what the changes in

17 order to make a proper assessment of how much time is really needed.

18 There are four pages of text, it is true, but that text includes quotes

19 from the original information sheet followed by the passage, in many cases

20 one word changed, and in some cases, changed from the singular to the

21 plural. The changes, I would respectfully submit, could be brought to the

22 General's attention in a ten-minute conversation.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I take it that you would not agree that ten

25 minutes would be enough or did I understand you correctly?

Page 11609

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's a question, right. It

2 would be sufficient, Mr. President, to inform General Galic on this

3 point, but it is not sufficient to respect the Defence's rights. So what

4 I would propose is that we would proceed, but the reservation is that the

5 Defence has not been able to give all the details to General Galic,

6 whatever the content of the information sheet.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber is willing to give some time to the

9 Defence to discuss the matter with General Galic. If it is just minor

10 changes, and I do understand that in most of the cases through, then, of

11 course, it might not be too difficult to prepare. I also do understand

12 that in one issue there is a more important change.

13 If we adjourn until a quarter to 12.00, that would mean that you

14 have some 18 minutes and let's then see whether we can deal, at least,

15 with the minor changes. If the change that would take more time is not

16 solved in an acceptable way for you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber then

17 would like to know what we are actually talking about. We are not that

18 much interested to go through the whole document and hear the evidence,

19 but if there is the remaining issue, something that is really of

20 importance, we will then get more information on that and see what we

21 should do.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you. The

23 Defence would like to ask for half an hour that is, until noon, so that we

24 can read the document through and then, of course, we would have to

25 translate it, and I would have to do it, and I would need some time. And

Page 11610

1 also, we would have to discuss this with General Galic and the three of us

2 will have to confer, obviously, including Madam Pilipovic.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. May I also take it that if we

4 have half an hour now, that the chance that we would have to take a second

5 break would be smaller and that there is a fairer chance that we could

6 continue?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence

8 will try and do this in quarter of an hour, 20 minutes. I apologise, but

9 I really cannot do interpreting or translation so quickly into Serbian, I

10 am afraid.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well then we will give you a bit more time than

12 you asked for. We will adjourn until five minutes to 12.00 so that we

13 will have at least some --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 --- Break taken at 11.30 a.m

16 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber apologises that you had to wait for 10

18 additional minutes.

19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the Defence ready to start the

20 cross-examination of the witness?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] More or less, Mr. President,

22 yes. And what I wanted to say, thank you for giving us the time that was

23 necessary for us. We have resolved the problem with General Galic but

24 simply, I had organised it in such a way to -- for the hearing to last for

25 four or four and-a-half hours that the Prosecution said it would

Page 11611

1 last, examination would last that long. And we tried to reorganise and

2 we believe that it may take a little more time for this reason. We are

3 ready.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The Prosecution took one hour and 20 minutes, and

5 let's see where we come in that time. And if it would not be sufficient,

6 we will then have to see. Of course, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you also know

7 that granting extra time might also depend on the way you use the time

8 which is available for you.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

12 Q. [Interpretation] General Abdel-Razek, good morning. I will ask

13 you certain questions. As much as possible, General, I would like to ask

14 you to answer with a "yes" or a "no" if that is possible, in order to gain

15 time. Thank you.

16 General, could you tell us, first of all, why did

17 General MacKenzie stop working at his post?

18 MR. IERACE: I object.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Relevance, Mr. President. It predates the indictment

21 period.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, it precedes, but not very

24 much and I would like to remind you that one of the positions of the

25 Prosecution was to say that there was a campaign in place before

Page 11612

1 General Galic came to take up his position, and that we would need to go

2 back to that period before General Galic took up his post.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. It might have some

5 relevance but, of course, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it depends on your next

6 questions whether this becomes apparent or not.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. Is the question

9 still -- [In English] As a matter of fact, [Interpretation] I will speak

10 in Arabic. Actually, I do not know why General MacKenzie left the sector,

11 however, I received a letter while I was in Angola, asking me to take over

12 the Sarajevo Sector as a successor to Mr. MacKenzie, who was asked to join

13 his country. That is the letter I received while I was working in

14 Angola. However, as to the "why," I do not know, sir.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Thank you, General, for your answer. Do you know if these reasons

17 were political?

18 MR. IERACE: I object.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if the witness says that he

20 doesn't know the "why," you can't ask him whether the reasons were

21 political or family reasons.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I agree

23 with you. I was only listening to the French booth and I am looking at

24 the transcript now. The French booth was saying the exact reason, and I

25 thought the exact reason would make it so so that there was a general

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Page 11614

1 reason, of a different reason.

2 JUDGE ORIE: May I just verify with the French booth that the

3 answer was translated as that the General did not know the precise

4 reasons, while the English translation is that the witness would not know

5 the reasons why.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, in fact, the French booth --

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... perhaps after

8 the French and the English interpreters have conferred.

9 Yes, well, you may put your next question. Please proceed, Mr.

10 Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. My

12 following question?

13 JUDGE ORIE: I was not very precise. You may repeat your question

14 you just put to the witness.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.

16 Q. General, do you know in general any reason why General MacKenzie

17 left, that is, do you know in general if these reasons had a political

18 character?

19 A. I would ask you to believe me, I do not know. However, as a

20 military man, I received an order to go to Sarajevo and assume

21 responsibility for this sector. And I do not know why MacKenzie left the

22 sector. And even when I arrived, I did not see him there. He has already

23 departed. So I am not aware of the reasons why he left. Maybe his

24 mandate or his function ended. I do not --

25 Q. Thank you, General.

Page 11615

1 I would like to ask you about the situation of destruction, the

2 destructions that occurred in the city, that occurred in the city at the

3 time of your arrival. Could you confirm, General, if that is possible by

4 a "yes" or "no," whether most of the destructions, material destructions

5 of buildings, occurred along the line of the demarcation line, the

6 confrontation line which was separating the two warring parties?

7 A. It was possible to see in a clear way, and this is not a private

8 view but it is the view of anyone who were witness to what happened in

9 Sarajevo. Whole buildings.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Yes, General, could you perhaps be a little more precise? My

13 question was: If most of the destruction occurred in the area along the

14 confrontation line, that is, where the parties were facing each other?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you, General.

17 General, I would like to ask you some questions on military

18 targets in Sarajevo. Could you tell us, General, today where the brigades

19 were located in Sarajevo, what their names were, please? Not what their

20 names, but how many, the number of them.

21 A. I do not recall these details, sir.

22 Q. Did you know, General, at the time of your mandate in Sarajevo,

23 where exactly were located the headquarters of each of the numerous

24 brigades in Sarajevo? I mean you personally, did you know then?

25 A. Not the brigades. I knew their positions on the map. I knew the

Page 11616

1 main headquarters where the most important persons are positioned, namely,

2 the main headquarters. I know their location, but as for the minor units,

3 I do not recall their specific positions. I used to know their position

4 on the map.

5 Q. General, I would like to ask you a number of questions that will

6 follow each other, and I would like you to tell me if you know these

7 names. If any of these names mean anything to you, then I would ask you

8 to stop me and tell me what they are.

9 I will start. General, do you know the following names: Sultan

10 Fatih, Fatih, Kobra, Ljiljana, Boris and Drago Prazina, Zulfikar, Crni

11 Labudovi, Black Swans, Silver Fox, Akrepi, Mudris, Dedo, Delta? Do any of

12 these names meaning anything to you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. General, I will continue with other names: Gras,

15 Pavle Goranin, Petar Dakic, Kulin Ban, Caco, Celo.

16 A. If you allow me, can I comment on these names, sir. When I meet

17 with people, I meet with specific persons and those persons are

18 accompanied by other persons, however, I deal with the person concerned.

19 As a commander, I do not recall the names of other persons accompanying

20 the General Galic, for example. I know that he comes with a number of

21 persons, but I do not know their names. I do remember some names, but

22 not the rest of them.

23 JUDGE ORIE: If you know a name, please indicate so. If you don't

24 know the name or don't remember the name -- Did you hear the last names

25 mentioned to you, that was Gras, Pavle Goranin, Petar Dakic, Kulin Ban,

Page 11617

1 Caco, Celo? I think that is what we have in the transcript,

2 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, until now.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Thank you, General. I would add the name of Juka. Does this name

7 mean anything to you, Juka Prazina?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Very well. General, do you know, please, where this person called

10 Juka Prazina had his headquarters?

11 A. I did not use to deal with this person.

12 Q. General, it is possible not to have contact with someone, but

13 still know where this person is. Should I conclude that you did not know

14 where his headquarters, his military headquarters, was?

15 A. I don't know anything about his headquarters.

16 Q. General, if I -- if I dare ask you in a general way, do you know

17 if his headquarters were located either on the ground floor or perhaps on

18 the first floor of a building?

19 A. Which building do you refer to, sir?

20 Q. General, I am talking about buildings that could have been used by

21 such-and-such a company or such-and-such a brigade, if you ever visited

22 them.

23 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. In spite of the fact that

24 the witness has said, "I don't know anything about his headquarters," my

25 learned colleague persists. He has not asked the witness whether indeed

Page 11618

1 this person Juka had headquarters. And in his last question he continues

2 to refer --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Sorry. Sorry.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps as a general rule, I might

5 have the right to speak without being interrupted.

6 JUDGE ORIE: May I just intervene. I take it, listening to the

7 French - and I think that is the only thing that Mr. Piletta-Zanin was

8 asking our attention for - that the issue you raised might be the result

9 of a translation problem since I did understand that Mr. Piletta-Zanin was

10 not asking about the headquarters of Juka Prazina but in general about

11 the existence of his headquarters. I would not allow someone to

12 interrupt. Perhaps we could find a code that if someone says, one of the

13 parties, "translation," that he indicates that the whole issue entirely

14 rests upon perhaps a translation problem.

15 And under these circumstances, I would allow an interruption.

16 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President

17 JUDGE ORIE: You have not only yellow papers but, yes, as kind

18 of a red sign. I think we could agree on that. Would you then please

19 continue.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

21 apologise, Mr. Ierace.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just say one thing: I do not blame Mr. Ierace

23 for asking not to be interrupted, neither do I blame you for the way you

24 interrupted under these circumstances.

25 Please proceed.

Page 11619

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, indeed,

2 Mr. President.

3 Q. General, in a general sense, for different HQs that you may have

4 known, did you see, yes or no, if, as a general rule, generally speaking,

5 these headquarters were either located on the ground floor or on the first

6 floor?

7 A. The headquarters where I used to meet with Mr. Siber was on the

8 first floor. On the first floor.

9 Q. General, did you have any knowledge about any other headquarters

10 that you may have visited?

11 A. I know the headquarters of Mr. Mustafa something Rajlova [as

12 interpreted], I don't recall. I know that headquarters very well. It is

13 also located on the first floor on one of the buildings.

14 Q. Do you know what the name of the street was? Could you perhaps

15 tell us that?

16 A. I am afraid not.

17 Q. Thank you, General. I will go on to another subject.

18 During your stay in Sarajevo, did you know where weapons factories

19 were located, ammunition factories, in Sarajevo?

20 A. No.

21 Q. General, did you know if such factories existed, ammunition and

22 weapons manufacturing factories?

23 A. No. It wasn't of any concern to me, did not interest me.

24 Q. General, did you ever take part in investigations following

25 shelling incidents?

Page 11620

1 A. What do you mean by investigations? There weren't any

2 investigations concerning this.

3 Q. General, when shellings happened, they occurred in the city, you

4 then did not take steps, investigative steps, or investigations to find

5 out where the shelling has come from?

6 A. We used to receive reports from the military observers and we

7 knew from where the shelling came, and we used to send reports to the

8 headquarters in Zagreb. And when the shelling was intense, I do not

9 recall that there was a fact-finding mission or an investigating mission

10 that was entrusted with the task of following up this matter.

11 Q. Thank you, General.

12 General, you are therefore saying, if I have understood you

13 correctly, that in order to determine where the fire was coming from, you

14 were basing yourselves only, it seems, on the work done by the observers.

15 Is that right?

16 A. Yes. That was the only means which helped us to identify the

17 source of the shelling. Sometimes our contact was obstructed and

18 sometimes we were not able to operate in a good way.

19 Q. General, the quality of the observers was so high, was so good,

20 that they were able to -- you could rely on their word?

21 A. Obviously, that was the only available means and it is a common

22 practice in the United Nations, we rely on the reports from the

23 observers.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with the

25 assistance of Madam Usher, I would like to ask to have the General

Page 11621

1 submitted document number D131. D131.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the document has been admitted

3 into evidence under seal, so if --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. I think it

5 should be shown now, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We have to turn into closed session, first, because

7 we have not all with us this document. So it should be --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- put on the ELMO. We will then turn into closed

10 session for a while dealing with this document. Unfortunately, the public

11 gallery have to leave. Yes.

12 [Closed session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

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25 [redacted]

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5 [Open session]

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Do I have to wait until we

7 are back in open session, Mr. President?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As you know, the Chamber is very much concerned

9 about the public gallery of the court hearing. Could we please open the

10 public gallery again.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

12 when we are going to have the next break, given the time that we are

13 wasting here.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps this would be a suitable moment, we then have

15 a short break. And keeping in mind that we had an extra break of half an

16 hour, I would rather limit it now to a quarter of an hour, so that we can

17 see whether we can finish at least the cross-examination of this witness

18 by a quarter to 2.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

22 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: Might I apologise for raising my voice earlier.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't follow you but I think everyone will

Page 11626

1 understand why you did it, and that's what I already tried to express.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. General, before we go on to other topics, I would like to ask you

5 a question in relation to your rank. You said at one moment that you did

6 become a General in 1992, and in another moment, you said that this rank

7 was given to you in 1995.

8 Just so that we can be very clear on this matter, when did you

9 become a General, please?

10 A. Normally, a Brigadier is described as a General. And in English,

11 we say "Brigadier General." But when you become a full General, then you

12 are talking about a Major General. When I was in Sarajevo, I was a

13 Brigadier General, and this is officially confirmed. But then I became a

14 Major General in 1995.

15 Q. Very well. So in 1992 you were a Brigadier General, so you were a

16 Brigadier General, General of a brigade?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you very much. So, General, I would like us to go back to

19 your last answer. You said that the municipalities of Ilijas, Ilidza and

20 Grbavica were shelled but that there were military targets there. Do you

21 remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What were the military targets that you were thinking of?

24 A. I do not have a specific recollection. However, when I used to go

25 to Ilidza on my way to Kiseljak or when I used to go to Ilidza, I could

Page 11627

1 see the remaining of the attacks. I could see the effects or the impact

2 of the shelling on these places. This I can testify to. You can see the

3 impact of bombs and the demolished houses and the marks of the destruction

4 around Sarajevo and inside Sarajevo.

5 Q. Well, General, in relation to the three areas that I have just

6 mentioned to you, you stated that there were military objectives in them.

7 I might try to be of assistance to you. When you speak of military

8 objectives or targets, did you think possibly of mobile targets such as

9 troops or military vehicles that were likely to move about?

10 A. According to my recollection, for example, there was the

11 headquarters, the command headquarters in Isakovic, which is a village or

12 one of the cities of Sarajevo within the area of Sarajevo, and in that

13 place, there was a military unit moving about the area. We used to see

14 troops, vehicles, and armoured vehicles moving around that area. That is

15 specifically what I meant. In civilian areas, there were military

16 positions. And we also used to see some tanks in those areas where there

17 were fighting or shelling. We could see the marks of the shelling.

18 Q. General, what you are saying in relation to the presence of the

19 soldiers, does that apply to the three municipalities that I have

20 mentioned, Ilijas, Ilidza, Grbavica? But does it also apply to the rest

21 of Sarajevo; is that right or not?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Thank you very much.

24 Am I to understand your answer as follows: As being the fact that

25 the people from Sarajevo, they are sometimes called the Presidency Army,

Page 11628

1 that they had a large number of heavy artillery, such as mortars? Can you

2 answer with a yes or no?

3 A. I don't understand the concept of President's Army or Presidency

4 Army. I have not heard this concept before. However, I can state that

5 they used to have mortars, and those were one of the problems I raised

6 with them.

7 Q. Thank you. What I meant by "Presidency Army," the people from

8 Sarajevo and not the people around Sarajevo. In other words, they are

9 also sometimes called the Muslims.

10 Looking at the words you used to qualify mortars, do we also think

11 or mention heavy mortars?

12 A. No. Mortars, low calibre, not the heavy ones, no.

13 Q. General, did you know whether the so-called Sarajevo forces had

14 what is called multiple rocket launchers?

15 A. I haven't heard about that, sir.

16 Q. Do you know whether these same forces had trucks that had been

17 transformed so as to enable transporting and shooting, from the flatbed,

18 mortar shells?

19 A. I did know that they used to position mortars on semi-trucks and

20 they used to operate from various positions and they used to launch their

21 shots from there. And this was one of the problems when we had the firing

22 and shelling around the PTT building.

23 Q. Precisely regarding the mortar shelling --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And I want to tell Madam

25 Registrar already that we would like to submit part of Exhibit 140 to the

Page 11629

1 witness in a minute.

2 Q. Regarding the mortar shelling, General, do you know whether on

3 various occasions the Sarajevo forces moved closer to the PTT building,

4 among other places, so as to launch attacks towards the outside of

5 Sarajevo?

6 A. Is it direct to me?

7 Q. Yes, it is a question I am putting to you, General.

8 A. As I explained earlier on, are you intending to submit a document

9 on that or can I give you an answer straight away?

10 I was in the UN premises. I used to hear sometimes, I used to

11 hear mortar shelling from very close distance, close distance to the

12 building. And I -- when I asked questions about that, I knew that some of

13 the vehicles were coming from the Muslim part. Some of these vehicles

14 used to shell their fire near the PTT building and they leaved to depart

15 straight away, and apparently that was the tactic used then. I was very

16 violent with them because I raised this issue with Mr. Ganic,

17 Colonel Siber. I told them: "You were shelling and we received the hits

18 back on your behalf." So this is the normal use of the mortars on

19 vehicles, mobile mortars. They used to launch their shots from an area

20 surrounding the PTT, whereas it was prohibited to use the perimeter of the

21 PTT building or within the 500 radius of the UN headquarters. That was

22 prohibited.

23 Q. Thank you, General. We have a slight problem with the French

24 booth. One should pay attention to what was said on line 47, 48; the

25 translation is not quite accurate.

Page 11630

1 This being said, General, these mobile mortars, technically

2 speaking, could they have directed their fire onto the city or onto

3 some parts of the city?

4 A. What I received, I did not know who was shooting at whom, but as

5 far as I knew, the PTT building was a target of intensive shelling. And I

6 tried -- when I tried to investigate, I knew that there were some mobile

7 mortars operating nearby, and generally, this happens in the darkness of

8 night. So these mobile vehicles used to shell their fire and depart

9 straight away. So obviously we could not investigate the target and,

10 obviously, this was a difficult operation to undertake because of the

11 critical stage.

12 Q. General, this firing onto locations close to positions such as

13 the PTT building, did that aim at provoking a counterbattery fire, as it

14 is called, counterbattery fire?

15 A. I cannot see through their mind, but I was trying to depict the

16 situation and that is what I saw. They used to shoot or -- and we

17 received their attacks. So I do not know otherwise.

18 Q. Forgive me, General, but in terms of military activity, if

19 somebody opens the fire onto you with a mortar battery, generally

20 speaking, will that not, in times of in conflict, trigger a response

21 which is called a "counterbattery fire"? Yes or no?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether the situation which you have just

24 described close to the PTT building may have been repeated as a pattern

25 but closer to other buildings, such as hospitals, for example?

Page 11631

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Page 11632

1 A. I cannot corroborate that. However, there were movements of

2 mobile mortars and this is the tactic used. Sometimes those small

3 vehicles move in a quick way. They hit one part and then they depart

4 right away in order to avoid a counterattack. So these mobile vehicles

5 used to hit and run in order to avoid a counterattack. However, as for

6 the shooting, we knew that they were nearby.

7 Q. Thank you, General.

8 My question just a moment ago was somewhat different. I asked

9 you this: Technically speaking, do you know whether these mobile mortars

10 could shoot at the city as well?

11 A. And the intensive skirmishes, it is rather difficult for anyone to

12 establish in an accurate way what was happening. Because as a UN staff,

13 we could not move outside. All those who were monitoring the situation

14 were the observers. The military observers were the ones who used to

15 monitor the sources of fire. And this is the only proof we used to get in

16 order to depict the situation within the city and around it or else in the

17 surrounding.

18 Q. I don't know if I understood you properly, but I put to you a

19 merely technical question. In theory, technically speaking, could these

20 mortars target the town?

21 A. Yes. You can open fire a distance of 500 metres. This is the

22 technical features of the mortar which allows that.

23 Q. Thank you very much, indeed.

24 I have a few questions regarding specific military actions. Were

25 you aware of an action called "Jug" action or operation, "Jug" meaning

Page 11633

1 "south" as well? It was an operation conducted by the army of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina called the Sarajevo Army.

3 A. I haven't heard about this operation either from the Bosnian side

4 or in the meetings I had with Mr. Galic. I haven't heard about this

5 throughout my stay in Sarajevo.

6 Q. The same question regarding the Koverat operation, the "Envelope"

7 operation, in translation.

8 A. No, I haven't heard about it, sir.

9 Q. General, were you aware of another two operations named "Oxygen"

10 for one of them and "Container" for the other?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know General, whether someone had tried to smuggle

13 gunpowder into bottles which were usually oxygen bottles which were to be

14 sent to hospitals?

15 A. I haven't heard about it. There were many allegations or claims

16 from this Serb side to the effect that there were misuse of the relief

17 convoys. And these are the allegations we were faced with. However, the

18 UNHCR was responsible for these issues. There were inspection teams,

19 investigation teams. However, this falls within the framework of the war

20 of words between the conflicting parties.

21 Q. Thank you, General. General, when you stated that you were aware

22 of claims or allegations that the convoys were not used for the initial

23 aim they were destined for, did you think of anything in particular? If

24 so, what?

25 A. There was a misuse of these things. Those were things raised most

Page 11634

1 predominantly by the Serb side.

2 Q. Since we are talking about the use of means, do you know whether

3 during your stay in Sarajevo, the press was in any way manipulated?

4 A. As far as this issue is concerned, there were some things that

5 happened. They were sometimes against the United Nations. The press used

6 to criticise us, attack us. They used to mobilise the public opinion

7 against us, saying that our mandate was very weak and our work to the

8 public did not appear to be positive. So we were the object of direct

9 attacks. They used to say that we were people receiving salaries and that

10 is all.

11 Q. Excuse me for interrupting you.

12 In order to save time, let me ask you this: Do you know

13 Sir Michael Rose, General Sir Michael Rose?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. You can't remember whether you met personally Michael Rose,

16 General Michael Rose?

17 A. I do not recall, sir.

18 Q. But are you aware of his name?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Thank you. If I were to tell you, and I don't think this is being

21 challenged, that we have testimony that the press --

22 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. IERACE: I anticipate what my learned colleague is about to

25 put to the witness. In my respectful submission, this is inappropriate.

Page 11635

1 The comment that was made by that witness related to a period a full 12

2 months after this witness left Sarajevo. And in any event, it is an

3 inappropriate use of the allowance of putting to witnesses what is

4 uncontested.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I specifically ask your

6 response as to the difference in time?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Mr. President. But

8 it is not because today we demonstrated that there were specific things.

9 And I am saying this in front of the witness so I am trying to couch my

10 thoughts in specific terms. We showed that this applied to a specific

11 time. We could also show that the same type of things would intervene,

12 would happen, before.

13 JUDGE ORIE: There is no question that you are not allowed to ask

14 any questions on the subject, but it was on the way that you did it. The

15 objection is sustained.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. General, as far as you know, did or was the media used as a

18 political means of fighting in Sarajevo?

19 A. I do not understand the meaning of your question. The mass media

20 has always a political role to play. So in my office, I used to gather

21 all that is related to the United Nations, UNPROFOR. As for the political

22 matters, there were higher levels of command. I was not in charge of

23 that. All that interested me was what is said about UNPROFOR in Sarajevo.

24 Q. Very well. I am going on to another series of questions.

25 General, were you informed about the location in Sarajevo of a

Page 11636

1 specific radar installation, and if so, what kind of a radar installation?

2 A. What do you mean when you say "radar"? Within the United Nations,

3 we used to have a Russian radar which was used to identify the source of

4 the firing. However, I said that this piece of equipment was not highly

5 reliable and we did not rely on it a great deal because it wasn't very

6 efficient. This is part of your question. However, if you mean other

7 pieces of equipment or other radars, I do not have any information on

8 them.

9 Q. General, this radar, was it in the hands of the Ukrainian

10 Battalion, under their control?

11 A. Yes. It was operated by a group of people from the Ukrainian

12 Battalion, as far as I know.

13 Q. General, could you tell us what happened to that radar?

14 A. No. Actually, no, I do not have any information on that radar.

15 However, all what I knew was that it wasn't a reliable radar and it was

16 not efficient, and after that, I dismissed all information related to it.

17 I haven't received any information later on.

18 Q. General, do you know if this radar was subject to attack; yes or

19 no?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you. General, before I ask you questions about the airport,

22 and that would be my following line of questioning, I wanted to ask you a

23 question, if you can answer by "yes" or "no." Is it true that you stated

24 in your witness statement, your written statement, that you lacked

25 personnel in order to fulfill your mission, that you were in dire need of

Page 11637

1 more personnel?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you for your answer, General.

4 A. May I add something else? The shortage was not -- did not mean

5 the lack of efficiency in performing the duties. It did mean that the

6 mission was performed in a not ideal way. For example, if the number of

7 people was increased, then our mission would have been performed in an

8 ideal way, in a better way. And this is exactly what I meant when I asked

9 for more staff, because we used to work around the clock without any rest.

10 Q. Very well. General, you said earlier, page 19, I believe, that in

11 the Holiday Inn or near the Holiday Inn there were fuel reserves. Do you

12 remember that?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. These reserves, were they under the control of the

15 army?

16 A. On the subject concerned, I can say single fact, namely, the

17 manager of the Holiday Inn met with me and I remember he informed me that

18 he had many tanks and he could supply the United Nations with some of this

19 stock to the United Nations. And this is a sort of transaction he wanted

20 to make with us, and I believe that he was referring to a reserve of fuel.

21 Q. So, General, when you are talking about fuel reserve, this is fuel

22 which is destined for tanks. Is that correct?

23 A. No. This is vehicle fuel, it is not fuel for tanks. There were

24 no tanks. We didn't have any tanks at our disposal.

25 Q. Very well. General, isn't it true to say that so-called

Page 11638

1 government troops did have tanks?

2 A. There were a number of armoured vehicles that were around the

3 headquarters there, the commands, but I have not seen any tanks, at least

4 on the routes that I followed when I made my movements. I had a set route

5 that I follow, and when I go to the Presidency, there is one route. There

6 is only three or four routes that I followed in my movements. And these

7 are secure movements to ensure my safety. And throughout the period where

8 I made these movements, I have not seen any tanks in Sarajevo itself.

9 Q. General, what type were they, these armoured vehicles that you

10 mentioned? Were these APCs or were they trucks?

11 A. Personnel carriers, mainly.

12 Q. Thank you. General, did you see civilian vehicles which were

13 transformed into armoured vehicles?

14 A. No, I have not seen such a thing.

15 Q. Thank you. General, did you yourself personally know the French

16 Colonel who was in charge of the battalion that was located at the

17 airport? The French Battalion.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Very well. Did you have an opportunity, General, to speak to this

20 French officer?

21 A. He was not so under the command. We were in communication at all

22 times.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I just interfere. It is, at

24 least I was told, that the golden rule is not to cross-examine the witness

25 if you have not followed the examination-in-chief as a whole. It seems

Page 11639

1 that you have no full knowledge of what has been dealt with in

2 examination-in-chief.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I am listening,

4 Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I am putting to you that the Chamber gets the

6 impression that you are not fully informed of what happened in

7 examination-in-chief, especially in regard of your last question.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] What do you mean? What the

9 witness said on page 19?

10 JUDGE ORIE: No, not specifically on 19, no. About the French

11 officer.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. But precisely, maybe I

13 could have done without this question, but what I would like to ask the

14 witness, the question, this is in relation to some statements that this

15 person allegedly said. I did not want to use this name.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That shows again that you are not aware of what

17 happened during the examination-in-chief. I will not allow the Defence

18 -- Ms. Pilipovic, you may tell Mr. Piletta-Zanin what -- I will not allow

19 any cross-examination if the Defence counsel has not been present during

20 the examination-in-chief.

21 Please continue with a different subject, and if there are some

22 questions to be put, maybe not by Ms. Pilipovic, would you please move to

23 your next subject.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I confer, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 11640

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 11641

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

4 Q. General, did you know a person by the name of Carol Off?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Very well. General, in relation to the incidents that happened at

7 the airport, do you know if on several occasions Muslim forces shelled the

8 airport from the Butmir area? Yes or no.

9 A. There were a number of incidents at the airport, but we are -- we

10 were not aware or capable of establishing the source of the fire. There

11 has always been crossfire in the engagements, and with all that ensues, it

12 is difficult to determine the source of the fire. We know that there was

13 artillery and mortars used.

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it becomes clear: I will not

17 allow you to continue the cross-examination on this issue.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And this is a way of dealing. Madam Registrar,

20 would you please redact the last part. You are violating the rules of

21 your profession. Please move to your next subject.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 Q. General, General Galic contests that he participated at a meeting

24 where Mrs. Plavsic also attended. Could you tell us exactly when, that is

25 at what date, would this meeting have taken place?

Page 11642

1 A. I met with Madam Plavsic on several occasions and General Plavsic

2 -- General Galic is aware of these meetings. She was the first political

3 Serb figure that I met with. When I first arrived to take my post, I

4 asked for a reading with Mr. Karadzic and I was told that he was not

5 available, and I was told that I could meet Ms. -- Madam Plavsic, and that

6 is how I met her. I don't know how it can be said that the meeting did

7 not take place.

8 Q. General, could you please tell me when exactly did "a meeting"

9 take place, which is still challenged, where both General Galic and Madam

10 Plavsic were present?

11 A. I cannot remember the exact date. I have a letter here outlining

12 my meeting with Mrs. Plavsic and it is dated the 2nd of October, 1992.

13 Q. Very well.

14 A. The letter indicates that I met with Madam Plavsic upon my request

15 and that I raised a number of issues with her. And that meeting was at

16 General Galic's headquarters. I cannot recall with certitude whether

17 General Galic was there or not, but I can remember with certitude that I

18 met with her at General Galic's headquarters. And this is a matter well

19 documented.

20 Q. General, I am going to have to interrupt you. You say that you

21 saw Madam Plavsic in Lukavica, but that you are unable to state today

22 General Galic, yes or no, attended this meeting.

23 A. It could be. It could be.

24 Q. So, General, you are unable to state this under oath today?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that is what the witness has

Page 11643

1 testified now two times. I mean, if you like an answer, it is not

2 necessary to have it repeated two or three times. It is quite clear that

3 where in the beginning the witness has told us that he met in Lukavica

4 with General Galic and Ms. Plavsic, that he now says that he is not sure

5 that General Galic was present during his meeting in Lukavica with

6 General Galic.

7 Apart from that, Mr. Ierace, may I take it that you will

8 need some time to cross-examine the witness -- to re-examine the witness?

9 We are not ready yet but it is a close to a quarter to 2.00.

10 MR. IERACE: Not so far, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Not so far.

12 How much time would you still need, Mr. Piletta-Zanin? The

13 Chamber needs three minutes as well.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, I

15 believe the very last question will be phrased by Ms. Pilipovic, which

16 could be helpful for the Chamber.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Your very last question, then, Ms. Pilipovic.

18 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Razek, good afternoon.

20 You told us today that you were in contact with the commander of

21 the French Battalion, Mr. Sartre. Could you tell us, when was it the

22 last time that you spoke to Mr. Sartre?

23 A. Before he left the sector. If my memory serves me right, there

24 was a change of personnel in the sector and a new commander took over, and

25 I remember I went to attend a farewell party and to bid him good-bye,

Page 11644

1 which is standard practice in UN work.

2 Q. General, Mr. Razek, could you tell us when did you speak to

3 Mr. Sartre in relation to the meeting that Mr. Sartre had with

4 General Galic?

5 A. If you are talking about the meeting in which Sartre expressed his

6 anger at the way General Galic operated, that meeting happened -- that

7 happened in my office. He told me that he was -- that General Galic was

8 determined to pursue policy of shelling and targeting those who try and

9 cross the perimeter of the airport.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And this posed great danger, a

12 great threat to the French Battalion. That is why he was so angry.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this evidence trespasses across a

15 certain line. Might I respectfully suggest that some steps be taken in

16 relation to it, not the usual step but a different step, and that perhaps

17 we should move into closed session, given the status of the earlier

18 material.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would that be enough, in your view?

20 MR. IERACE: Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it would be enough.

22 My other problem is that the very last question has been followed

23 by the very, very last question already. Are there any further questions

24 on this issue, Ms. Pilipovic?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. [redacted]

Page 11645

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, that is exactly why Mr. Ierace asked

4 to go in closed session. That is why I asked the question in general

5 terms.

6 Madam Registrar, could you please redact the last part and we

7 will turn now into closed session, but we have to stop anyhow. I

8 wondered whether we could finish today. It seems that we will not be

9 able to do so.

10 So, is the witness still available tomorrow

11 morning?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you very much.

14 The Defence will have but not more than five to seven minutes

15 tomorrow morning to start with. Unfortunately, we cannot finish as there

16 is another case to be heard this afternoon.

17 THE WITNESS: No problem.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness out

19 of the courtroom.

20 May I ask you not to speak with anyone -- not with those who are

21 accompanying you with no one about your testimony. Could you please put

22 on the headset -- with anyone about your testimony in this court.

23 If the interpreters would allow me, I would like to take two

24 minutes after the witness has been escorted out of the courtroom.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 11646

1 JUDGE ORIE: There is an issue I would like to draw to the

2 attention of the parties. That is, you can expect a rather lengthy

3 decision on 92 bis issues, but since this decision might have quite some

4 implications for practical matters concerning the Prosecution, I would

5 like already to give you an indication of what you can expect. That is,

6 if we are talking about sniping incidents.

7 Mr. Ierace, Witness N, one out of the three witnesses suggested

8 for sniping incident number 1, and Mr. Brkanic, their statements will be

9 admitted into evidence but with cross-examination. On the other hand,

10 that is important for the Defence. The examination of the witness -- the

11 cross-examination including re-examination, not more than one hour for

12 each of these witnesses.

13 As far as Sehadeta Dzubur is concerned, the Chamber will partially

14 admit the statement. Further details you will find in the decision.

15 The statement of Mr. Murad Celik will be partially admitted.

16 Cross-examination not to take more, including re-examination, whatever

17 incidents on translation, et cetera, not more than one hour, and limited,

18 strictly limited, to their statements.

19 The statement of Mr. Isakovic will be admitted. The Defence

20 will have an opportunity to cross-examine the witness. It would be

21 slightly different schedule, and that is that the Prosecution may give a

22 short introductory examination, certainly not more than 30 minutes and

23 preferably less.

24 Then the Defence will have 45 minutes to cross-examine the

25 witness and there will be some time available for re-examination. So, it

Page 11647

1 altogether will not take more than one hour and a half. A similar

2 schedule will be followed in respect of Ismail Zekic. There it will be

3 granted a bit more time, a bit over one hour to the Defence, also

4 specifically related to the statement.

5 Similar, I will give the precise time limits, you will find them

6 in the decision, in respect of Ojstenstrand [phoen] and Faris Gavran

7 Kapetanovic. The Chamber will partially admit without cross-examination

8 the statement of Dinko Radnic and those missing, those names you have

9 not -- I have not yet mentioned, in any way will not, the

10 Chamber takes it, cause the calling of these witnesses. It is very

11 difficult reasons why to -- why we will not admit these statements, either

12 not at this very moment or because lack of relevance. You will find the

13 details in the final decision, but the Chamber thought it wise that the

14 Prosecution should have some guidance and the Defence also as far as the

15 time they will have available to cross-examine these witnesses so that

16 they can better prepare, since it -- the Prosecution will need some

17 preparation, I take it.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, does this mean that -- I take it it

19 does mean that the Prosecution is not expected to complete its case by the

20 2nd of August?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think the Prosecution is still expected to

22 complete its case by the 2nd of August. Altogether, this will take

23 approximately three days.

24 We found one for you on the 26th of July. I think we have some

25 space here and there, and it is a matter of scheduling. And it you would

Page 11648

1 need -- we have worked on the schedule you have provided until now. We

2 have also looked at how things developed. And we think -- the Chamber

3 thinks that this could be completed by the 2nd of August. It is

4 altogether -- that is the reason why we gave such strict limits as far as

5 the cross-examination was concerned, because we felt that time restraints

6 will be very important for the Prosecution, both in offering 92 bis

7 statements and also in not -- opposing against cross-examination.

8 Cross-examining these witnesses should be dealt with within three

9 days, and it is possible.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, given, for instance today,

11 examination-in-chief took one hour and 20 minutes and we still have not

12 finished the witness. It is likely that I will have to reconsider the

13 witnesses we propose to call in order to accommodate --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can imagine, of course, you ask leave to

15 present 92 bis witness statements. If you would say that the decision

16 would cause you not to call, for example, some of the first witnesses I

17 mentioned, of course, the Prosecution is -- can make its own

18 determinations in that respect.

19 MR. IERACE: Yes, I appreciate it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: If you ask 92 bis statements to be admitted, it is

21 not a situation that if we would allow you to do so, with

22 cross-examination, that you have to call those witnesses.

23 MR. IERACE: That is quite right, Mr. President. And yes, thank

24 you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the decision will be more than 20 pages so that

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1 is the reason why we work on it and you have the guidance meanwhile.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I am looking at the interpreters, and

3 in the back of my mind is the Stakic case.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one minute, Your Honour.

5 Regarding the schedule and the time, I would just like to inform the

6 Chamber that today we have the change of the schedule, that Mr. John

7 Higley [phoen], who was supposed to be scheduled for the 24th and 25th of

8 July, now according to the new schedule, will be on the 1st and the 2nd of

9 August. And the Defence, in accordance with the previous schedule,

10 already asked for a military expert of the Defence to be present at the

11 examination of Mr. Jonathan, and it was confirmed that the trip will be

12 between the 23rd and 27th of June. We have a problem whether our expert

13 could be present on the 1st and 2nd of August.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please try to find out? I think I

15 understand why the Prosecution changed the schedule. Even if you

16 understand why things are happening, this does not always mean that you

17 can accept it. Would you please try to find out if your expert would be

18 available. If not, please inform the Chamber right away tomorrow morning,

19 right away. We will then adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

21 1.59 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

22 the 16th, day of July, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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