Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11940

1 Friday, 19 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Could you please call the

6 case, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Before we resume the cross-examination of the witness

11 Mr. Karavelic, I would like to deal with two issues that will not take

12 much time. First of all, how much time will the Defence still have? The

13 time the witness spent on marking, during the break, is not time used in

14 court by the Prosecution. However, the time used for marking in court

15 will be counted normally.

16 As the Prosecution might have noticed, if the Defence has received

17 a pre-marked map prior to the audience, they are in a position to study

18 them thoroughly and see what markings are made on a map. If, however,

19 markings are made and if in court they are for the first time confronted

20 with these markings, then the Defence is able to follow what the markings

21 are about at the moment they are made. So this enables the Defence to

22 analyse what it is all about. Because they have had no opportunity to

23 analyse any markings prior to the hearing.

24 So what we did, as a matter of fact, is we started a couple of

25 markings in court so that we could all see what it was about, and then

Page 11941

1 once knowing that to continue with the other maps, because we then had an

2 idea what to look at specifically and it was by this way that we could,

3 for example, identify a few inconsistencies in the marking, et cetera, et

4 cetera.

5 So the difference is whether a premarked map has been presented to

6 the Defence and whether the markings have been the subject of study of the

7 Defence. If not, then we -- the Chamber usually prefers to have the

8 marking done in the presence of both the Chamber and the parties. But

9 even there, once we knew what it was about, we allowed further marking to

10 be done during the break.

11 As far as the time is concerned, the Prosecution took three hours

12 and 54 minutes. Until now, the Defence took one hour and 34 minutes. So

13 that would come down to two hours and 20 minutes, I would say. Some of

14 the interventions were not always of such character that a bit less than

15 two hours and 20 minutes would be fair as a remaining time. That is the

16 issue about the time.

17 Then we have still some documents that we have to take decision

18 upon. The first is a document which was tendered by the Prosecution

19 during the -- at the end of the testimony of Mr. Van Baal. The issue was

20 whether the Chamber would ask the Prosecution also to refrain from

21 tendering the document. The Prosecution has explained to us that since

22 there was something attached to the document, that that would not do well.

23 Madam Registrar it was I think P2380. Yes. We will not ask the

24 Prosecution to refrain from tendering; therefore, it is admitted into

25 evidence. Then we still have some documents of which Madam Registrar

Page 11942

1 would like to invite you -- do we have to do that in --

2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I explained the difference to you

4 in view of P2380. The document we asked you not to tender, well you

5 finally decided what you would not tender, was a statement of a witness,

6 which, at least the part presented, has been fully read, nothing attached

7 to it. And that is the difference with the document the Prosecution

8 tendered in respect of Mr. Van Baal.

9 Mr. Ierace, do we need any further documents to be tendered that

10 have been used during the testimony of Mr. Philipps or ...

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, firstly, in relation to the chart that

12 was filed, so I presume that you do not require that to be formally

13 tendered.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The chart, you mean the big chart?

15 MR. IERACE: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think most of us received -- do we --

17 Madam Registrar, do you have a copy of the big chart?

18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We do not have a copy as an exhibit. I don't

20 think it's specifically mentioned in the report -- no, it's mentioned, but

21 we have some who have received reports with a copy of the big chart with

22 all the, I would say, the faceless people on it, and some of us have not

23 received it. So there might be some confusion. If you say it is --

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I apologise for that most sincerely.

25 I had assumed that Your Honours had a copy of that.

Page 11943

1 JUDGE ORIE: Most of the Judges had.

2 MR. IERACE: I certainly have copies now, which I would make

3 available for tendering and for distribution to you. So that would be

4 Exhibit P3726 for the English version, and 3726.1 for the B/C/S version.

5 In relation to the documents that I showed the witness during

6 re-examination, I think the relevant parts of those documents have been

7 elicited orally, so I don't seek to tender them.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am wondering whether the computerised version

9 is also tendered. It would --

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I am of two minds about that. The

11 computerised version is nothing more than slides of details of the chart.

12 There is nothing added.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I know that. One of the advantages is that

14 when you are sitting behind your desk, either you cover your whole

15 computer with a map, if you want to look at it, or you use your screen.

16 But, perhaps if you would say it would be available, even if it would not

17 be tendered, but copies would be available just for practical

18 purposes.

19 MR. IERACE: We have hard copies, if you wish it, Mr. President,

20 in other words, a pile of A-4 paper-size hard copies of what was on the

21 screen. If you prefer it in CD form --

22 JUDGE ORIE: That is another option, or in CD form.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, that would require the relative software. I

24 think it is PowerPoint.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It is PowerPoint. It is general software.

Page 11944

1 MR. IERACE: So whichever you prefer, Mr. President, we can

2 provide if you want it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll let you know. My preference is certainly the

4 CD-ROM. I can't imagine that we'd ask you for both versions.

5 MR. IERACE: That would be no problem, Mr. President. At some

6 convenient point, Mr. President, can I take 15 seconds of your time to say

7 something?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would first like to deal with any other

9 documents. I do see that the Prosecution has not tendered anything, but

10 the Defence did, in respect of Mr. Philipps.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in view of the chart

12 which shows the structure of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, the Defence has

13 an objection to accepting this into evidence, because after the

14 cross-examination we did not receive answers to the relevant questions,

15 and we would like to emphasise that the structure which is presented here

16 is not in accordance with the actual situation which at the time was

17 enforcing the Sarajevo Romanija Corps. Specifically, we saw that the

18 chart presents the tactical group Vogosca in an incorrect way. And in

19 view of the evidence presented by the Defence, D42, as well as Prosecution

20 exhibits, this was a document presented by the Prosecution to

21 Mr. Philipps.

22 So, on the basis of these two documents, it could be concluded

23 that the Vogosca tactical group did not include the Ilidza Brigade. When

24 asking questions about the mixed anti-tank artillery regiment and the 4th

25 Engineering Regiment, we saw --

Page 11945

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, let's not discuss the -- you are

2 talking about whether this chart finally would reflect the absolute truth.

3 That is not a question of admissibility. The chart reflects what the

4 expert has concluded on the basis of the documents he has studied and

5 inspected. And of course, if there is anything you would like to present

6 or already have presented which would put into doubt what the expert has

7 told us, you are entirely free to do so. But the consequence of your

8 position would be that whenever a witness is contradicted by another

9 witness, his testimony would not be admissible evidence any more. It is,

10 I think, not a matter of admissibility you are addressing at this moment,

11 apart from your claim that what is on your papers is the full truth. I do

12 not know that. I think the Chamber doesn't know that. We first have to

13 deliberate on all the evidence presented to us.

14 Any other objections against the chart?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I just must

16 emphasise that the Defence so far did not receive the documents used by

17 Mr. Philipps in order to develop the diagram, except for a letter from

18 Mr. Ierace which noted the ERN numbers, and we received copies.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. The report filed in respect of

21 Mr. Philipps contained a 60-page list of references for each aspect of the

22 chart. In respect of some of those entries, a letter which accompanied

23 the report and was filed with it indicated that further references would

24 be provided at a later date. On the 30th of May, some 13 days later, that

25 further collection of references was provided both to the Defence and to

Page 11946

1 the Trial Chamber, and it comprised an additional approximately 24 pages.

2 Prior to the original filing on the 17th of May, I raised with

3 the Trial Chamber a question of whether the Prosecution should file a copy

4 of each of the documents from which the chart was composed. The Trial

5 Chamber ruled that the Prosecution should not file the documents, but if

6 during Mr. Philipps' evidence he was taken to any of the documents, then

7 those documents could be tendered. That ruling was on the basis that all

8 of the material upon which he relied had either been disclosed to the

9 Defence from the Prosecution or from the Defence to the Prosecution.

10 During the course of Mr. Philipps' evidence, my learned colleagues

11 pointed out that the documents they had disclosed to the Prosecution were,

12 of course, without ERN numbers because that doesn't happen. ERN numbers

13 are not allocated until they are submitted to the Evidence Unit. I am

14 more than happy to provide the Defence with a list of the relevant ERN

15 numbers for the documents they have disclosed to us so as to facilitate

16 any further use of those documents by the Defence, and indeed should we

17 get so far, in the Defence case. Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, the matter has been discussed

19 thoroughly during the examination, also your difficulties in retrieving

20 the documents. I then told the parties that if you needed specific

21 documents, you could ask the Prosecution, give a list of those documents

22 you needed. I didn't hear from you anymore in respect of those

23 documents. So that is a matter that we have dealt with. Yes.

24 So, if there is no -- if there is not any further objection, the

25 chart is admitted into evidence. And then, Madam Registrar.

Page 11947

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Page 11948

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D142, B/C/S document dated 07/7/1993

2 signed by General Stanislav Galic. D142.1, partial translation of D142.

3 JUDGE ORIE: As far as the translation, the partial characteristic

4 of the translation is concerned, does that raise any further issues,

5 Mr. Ierace, because that is one of the things you mentioned before?

6 MR. IERACE: No objection, Mr. President

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then they are admitted into evidence. Just for the

8 sake of the record, we earlier talked about PT2380 used during the

9 testimony of Mr. Van Baal, that is admitted under seal.

10 Yes, then you asked for 15 seconds.

11 MR. IERACE: Fifteen seconds, Mr. President, and counting. At the

12 end of --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is this something new or --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. If I may

15 have the leave. The booth told me that they didn't catch one of the

16 exhibit numbers. If you could repeat it so it is entered into the French

17 transcript. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, but now I change to the English

19 channel and would like to know where I find it.

20 Yes. The document tendered in relation of -- to Mr. Van Baal was

21 P2380. The chart related to the testimony of Mr. Philipps was P3726, and

22 the same number but then dot one added. And the Defence documents were

23 D142, D142.1.

24 If we have heard all the numbers, we will then give Mr. Ierace an

25 opportunity to spend 15 seconds.

Page 11949

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at the conclusion of the evidence of

2 this witness, might I respond to what could be called the Hungarian

3 translation issue, and secondly, might I update the Trial Chamber in

4 relation to the Prosecution timetable.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may do so, and we will then first resume

6 the cross-examination of Mr. Karavelic.

7 Madam Usher, can you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 WITNESS: VAHID KARAVELIC [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, General Karavelic. May I again remind

12 you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at

13 the beginning of your testimony. Now your cross-examination will be

14 resumed.

15 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Karavelic, good morning.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. Mr. Karavelic, yesterday when I asked you a question about your

21 knowledge about the number of snipers that the BH army had at their

22 disposal, you said that you did not hear about the data given to you by

23 the Defence that was quoted in Mr. Siber's book. Could you perhaps tell

24 us in which units did BH army have snipers?

25 A. In 1992, according to the establishment of the army, the BH army

Page 11950

1 had -- in each of their firing section, they should have had a sniper.

2 However, I can only judge this by the 1st Corps of the BH army, that the

3 number of snipers was not really well represented within that unit. How

4 many snipers the 1st Corps had, this information could be -- it is

5 possible to get it through the -- from the archive.

6 Q. Mr. Karavelic, could you please answer whether the snipers were

7 under the control of the 1st Corps?

8 A. I cannot answer such a question. You would have to understand

9 what a formation -- what establishment is. I think I answered in the

10 previous answer.

11 Q. Mr. Karavelic, my question was whether snipers were under the

12 control of the 1st Corps. Did the 1st Corps issue orders in relation to

13 snipers?

14 A. Any firing section, according to the establishment, should have a

15 sniper. The 1st Corps had the minimum number of snipers. That is the

16 answer to your question.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

18 like to show Mr. Karavelic a document.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please assist, Madam Usher.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The document is 146.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my learned colleague handed me a

23 bundle of documents this morning. Might she indicate -- thank you. Or

24 perhaps she might indicate if this document which I have just been handed

25 is one from the bundle.

Page 11951

1 JUDGE ORIE: It is one from the bundle.

2 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just ask you if I may just

5 have one copy and then I will return it. I see there are not enough

6 copies for everyone. Just so that the witness -- I can show it to the

7 witness.

8 Q. Mr. Karavelic, is this a document dated 12th of December, 1993?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Does this document, which is an order, says: "According to the

11 order of command of the 1st Corps number 5 through 7, 5 through 8, dated

12 12th of December, 1993, in relation to the regrouping of snipers. In

13 order to resist the aggressor, I hereby order, and in order to prepare the

14 manpower, I hereby order."

15 And then we have various items, four items, from which we can see

16 that the order is in relation to carrying out an order of the 1st Corps.

17 Could you perhaps confirm through this document that snipers were,

18 indeed, under the control, under direct command of the 1st Corps?

19 A. Every now and then, depending on the combat situation in Sarajevo,

20 there were probably -- there was probably regrouping of forces,

21 and, among other things, from this document you can see that there were

22 sniping groups that were created. And according to the combat rules, it

23 is possible to do this in order to prevent possible breakthroughs into

24 Sarajevo.

25 Q. Mr. Karavelic, could you answer whether within brigades --

Page 11952

1 specifically we are talking about 1993. Do you have any knowledge whether

2 sniper -- sniping platoons were established within battalion of some

3 brigades?

4 A. All commanders on all levels have the right to do any kind of

5 regrouping of units within their own formation, within their own unit.

6 Q. Mr. Karavelic, could you please tell us, and we are still talking

7 about 1993, do you have any knowledge where and which location were

8 located -- were sniping platoons located? I am going to ask you

9 specifically about the sniping platoon, its location, the sniping platoon

10 of the 1st Motorised Brigade.

11 A. I cannot answer that question.

12 Q. If I tell you that the sniping platoon was located in the school

13 Blagoje Panevic near Cenex, can you please confirm this fact?

14 A. I think that this corps was used only in the beginning; after

15 that, I don't think it was used.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

17 like Mr. Karavelic shown Document Number 147.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you see before you the document, which in the

21 left corner says, "Commander of the 1st Motorised Brigade 2nd of October,

22 1993," and it is in the form of an order

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On page 2 of this document you have the signature of commander

25 Ramiz Velic?

Page 11953

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it true, is it correct that through this -- that this order

3 enables it to -- makes it possible for the sniping platoon to be

4 established within the 1st and 2nd and 3rd battalion?

5 A. Yes, I can read this.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel perhaps repeat her -- could

7 the counsel please repeat -- the booths have not been given the document.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have additional documents for the booth? If

9 not, could you then please repeat, Ms. Pilipovic, please repeat, but what

10 exactly -- the question, I take it. Could you please repeat the question.

11 I see that the booth are now provided with copies of the document.

12 Please proceed.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Karavelic, in this order, does it say that the sniper platoon

15 is to be created, is to be composed from the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Motorised

16 Battalion?

17 A. That is what it says.

18 Q. Does the -- under item three of this order, does it say, "The

19 sniper platoon is to be placed in the former school Blagoje Parovic"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mr. Karavelic, could you answer whether during the conflict in

22 Sarajevo, were there other schools that the BH army used in order to place

23 troops and weapons?

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 11954

1 MR. IERACE: Having regard -- the question contains the words

2 "were there other schools." The item the question follows on from related

3 to a former school. Perhaps my friend could clarify whether she means

4 other former schools or buildings being currently used as schools.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The document talks about former schools.

6 Ms. Pilipovic, were you referring to school buildings not

7 functioning as schools, or could you please clarify the issue?

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was talking about

9 former buildings which in 1992, 1993, and 1994, were buildings where --

10 which were used as schools at that relevant time.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Ms. Pilipovic, if you are asking about were

12 there other schools, then at least it should follow from this document

13 that a school was used and not a former school. I thought you might refer

14 to the building, but if you say -- I do understand by "a former school"

15 that a building which is at the relevant time not used for teaching

16 purposes but before was used for that aim. I think we should be very

17 clear on this.

18 Please proceed, and please rephrase your question.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Karavelic, could you tell us, in the period 1992, 1993, and

21 1994, were buildings that before the conflict were schools, were these

22 buildings used for the accommodation of BH army soldiers?

23 A. Perhaps in a very small percentage, although with the observation

24 that the schools throughout the war in Sarajevo were not able to function.

25 These were only buildings, facilities. They should not be called schools.

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Page 11956

1 There were burnt buildings without windows, without glass in windows.

2 These were not schools.

3 Q. Mr. Karavelic, the Defence would like to show you a document, D97,

4 which is a Defence exhibit.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: And the Defence has copied this document in a

6 sufficient number of copies. D97.

7 Q. Mr. Karavelic, do you see a document before you where in the

8 left-hand corner, top left-hand corner, you can see the command of the

9 102nd Motorised Brigade?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In the document on line two, it says: "Please through the

12 Ministry allow priorities for the factory of wire, Valter Peric facility

13 and primary school Slobodan Vukovic, Petar Dakic, Marsal Tito Barracks,

14 Energoinvest building, kindergarten the 8th of March, school Pavle Goranin

15 and hotel Zagreb." Could you confirm that this document is correct and

16 that these were the facilities that the army, that is the 102 Motorised

17 Brigade, used as facilities for accommodation?

18 A. If this document has been taken from the archive of the BH army,

19 then that is what it says, that is it. I have no reason to doubt it.

20 This just means that it is confirmed that this was asked for, and in

21 numerous cases, there were many examples that I personally asked

22 permission from the government and I cannot understand what the government

23 would be, what kind of government would that be if they allow troops to go

24 into school which is functioning. That just wouldn't be normal.

25 Q. Could you tell me, Mr. Karavelic, whether the snipers of BH army

Page 11957

1 operated from snipers' nests?

2 A. You are asking me something else. The 1st Corps of the BH army

3 had 74.000 people, 75.000 people. We had what we had and we defended

4 ourselves. We used everything that was at our disposal.

5 Q. Mr. Karavelic, I asked you if the facilities in Sarajevo in the

6 part of the city which was under the control of the BH army, do you have

7 any knowledge that the facilities were used as snipers' nests?

8 A. There are many kinds of nests. This is used in military

9 terminology. And if there were snipers and they existed, it is -- I

10 cannot rule out the possibility that there were such nests.

11 Q. Could you tell us which facilities you know of that the BH army

12 used as snipers' nests?

13 A. The entire defence line around Sarajevo.

14 Q. Could you confirm that the facilities of the refrigerator, the

15 Bristol building, the Executive Council, the engineering faculty, the

16 Electro-Technical building, that these were building that were used, among

17 others, that were used as snipers' nests?

18 A. All buildings that were high-rise flats were avoided because they

19 were at the risk of being fired on by the other side with the tanks and

20 other things. So if they operated, it was always from the lowest possible

21 levels where there was minimum possibility of them being seen.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

23 like the witness to be shown the document 148.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Can the interpreters have a copy, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we distribute copies to the interpreters'

Page 11958

1 booth as well.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

3 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, but there are not enough copies.

4 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that once the Prosecution has

5 identified the document, if it is in the bundle, that they would give

6 their copy to the booth.

7 MR. IERACE: Certainly, Mr. President. The transcript doesn't

8 record the full exhibit number. Might I have that again. 148 is it?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is 148.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you see the document before you of the 102nd

12 Motorised Brigade dated 18th of September, 1993? Is that an order where

13 under item 1 it says that the facilities of Halnica [phoen] is exclusively

14 to be used for snipers' nests, observation points, firing position of

15 certain weapons?

16 A. Yes, that's what it says in the document.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Karavelic.

18 Mr. Karavelic, in your statement you spoke of the order of battle

19 of the brigades and you said that every brigade on the front line had one

20 battalion, one reserve, and then one having a rest. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, generally speaking, yes.

22 Q. Could you tell us, what was the depth of the brigade order of

23 battle when we are bearing in mind all of the elements of the order of

24 battle from the front line until the reserve, that is also including units

25 that were being -- that were having a rest?

Page 11959

1 A. Do you want the real situation, what really happened, or do you

2 want how it should have been done, according to the rules of using the

3 units?

4 Q. Could you tell us: 1992, 1993, 1994, what was the depth --

5 A. Motorised Brigade has the depth -- according to the rule, a

6 Motorised Brigade should have a depth of 3 to 5 kilometres from the front

7 line to the rear. I believe that's the figures. That is according to the

8 rules. And from that, everything else can be concluded in relation to

9 your question.

10 Q. Mr. Karavelic, could you tell us: The brigades that you marked on

11 the map, how many battalions did they comprise at -- would you be able to

12 locate them?

13 A. On average, depending on what kind of brigade we are talking

14 about, whether it is a mountain, infantry, motorised brigade, or

15 mechanised brigade, on average a brigade would have three to six

16 battalions.

17 Q. Mr. Karavelic, could you perhaps show us on the map that you used,

18 and I believe that map number is 3644, Prosecution map, where you marked

19 all the command posts of the brigades. Would you be able to mark the

20 command posts of the battalions?

21 A. If I had three brains, I would not be able to do this.

22 Q. Mr. Karavelic, you, as the commander, as the corps commander, were

23 you supposed to know all the command posts of your battalions?

24 A. No. Do you know that I had 30 brigades times five or six

25 battalions? Do you know how many command posts that would mean?

Page 11960

1 Q. Could you tell us such a number, large number of battalions,

2 where -- where were they, in which buildings were they accommodated, were

3 they billeted? Where were the --

4 A. The rule was that the command of the brigades were -- according to

5 the scheme, as I have told you, that is how they were located while the

6 commands of the battalions were in the immediate vicinity, that is just

7 behind front line. That is how they had to be located. And this is most

8 frequently -- was most frequently the case, that the commander of the

9 battalions were there during the -- because of the rotation. When there

10 was a rotation, then they would be moved. There would be a new command --

11 battalion command that would come take over the line, the position, and

12 then they would move.

13 Q. Could you tell us which buildings were used for the billeting?

14 A. In 99 per cent of the cases, anything that was destroyed, burnt

15 out, it would then be slightly adapted, modified, and then cellars in such

16 facilities which could not be used for anything at all, not even for

17 soldiers, they were, however, used.

18 Q. Mr. Karavelic, you told us speaking of weapons, that you did not

19 have many weapons and that the artillery was outside of the city?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You said that in Sarajevo you had one tank that was working and

22 one that was not functioning, I believe?

23 A. Yes. Except there was a third tank which was never used at all.

24 Q. Could you tell us --

25 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to slow a bit down. I see that -- I

Page 11961

1 hear that the interpreters are out of breath almost.

2 Please proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 Q. Apart from the tanks that you mentioned, did you have other

5 artillery weapons?

6 A. Howitzers, 105 millimetres, and mortars, 120. That depends on --

7 some people believe that -- place them as artillery and some as infantry

8 weapons.

9 Q. Could you tell us where were they located.

10 A. Howitzer, 105 millimeters, I showed it yesterday on the map.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

12 like to show Mr. Karavelic, I believe the document is 149.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, can you please assist. If there are not

14 sufficient copies for the booth, then I would like to ask Ms. Pilipovic to

15 quote only slowly.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you see before you a document of the command of

18 the 1st Corps?

19 A. Yes. This is one document dated --

20 Q. Dated 16th of February, 1992 -- 1993?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you please read under item one after "I order."

23 A. Under one it says: "The spent mixed artillery rocket brigade of

24 the 1st Sarajevo Corps and organisational units are to be disposed in

25 other war units, according to the following schedules."

Page 11962

1 Q. Mr. Karavelic, is it true, according to this order, that the 3rd

2 Motorised Brigade received a 120-millimetre mortar battery with all

3 materiel and assets?

4 A. According to this document, yes.

5 Q. Could you please tell us where your 3rd Motorised Brigade was on

6 the 16th and what its zone of responsibility was, which parts of the city

7 was it responsible for?

8 A. The 3rd Motorised Brigade, I think it was -- its duties were taken

9 over by the 102nd Motorised Brigade and its zone is the Azici Stupska

10 Petlya area.

11 Q. Mr. Karavelic, is it true that according to this order, the

12 Howitzer battery of 105 millimetres was placed in the 101st Motorised

13 Brigade?

14 A. Some things were crossed out here, but it does seem to say that

15 the Mechanised Brigade.

16 Q. Can you tell us where the 1st Motorised Brigade was? Obviously,

17 we are talking about the 1st Motorised Brigade, since the Mechanised

18 Brigade was crossed out.

19 A. It must be mechanised because there was no Motorised Brigade; it

20 never existed in Sarajevo and it's the zone from Kosevo to Zuc.

21 Q. Did this brigade also cover Buca Potok?

22 A. No. It was close to the border with the 2nd Motorised Brigade, so

23 it is possible that it did cover that area.

24 Q. Did the self-propelled 122 millimetre Howitzer battery, was that

25 allocated to the 6th Motorised Brigade?

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Page 11964

1 A. That's what it says here in the document.

2 Q. Could you please tell us where the 6th Motorised Brigade was

3 placed, which parts of the city of Sarajevo was it responsible for?

4 A. I think that it only existed in the course of 1992 and it was

5 disbanded. This is February 1993, so that brigade didn't exist anymore.

6 It was disbanded around this time or perhaps slightly before this date.

7 Q. Under item D, we have a Howitzer battery of 122 millimeters which

8 was deployed in the 2nd Motorised Brigade. Did the 2nd Motorised Brigade

9 cover the area of Miasca [phoen], Solika, and Alipasino Polje?

10 A. Not Alipasino Polje in depth, but the two things you said before,

11 yes.

12 Q. Well, I did say by depth, did it include Alipasino Polje.

13 A. I apologise. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Karavelic, when we analyse this document, do you

15 still stand by your statement that the artillery in your -- of your corps

16 was outside of the city?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you tell us whether as part of your corps, you

19 had a mixed artillery battalion?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us as part of the mixed artillery battalion, which

22 weapons did you have at your disposal?

23 A. I would need to refer to the archives of the Army of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I think that during the entire period, this

25 battalion -- this artillery battalion had maybe two or three anti-aircraft

Page 11965

1 guns, single barrel, or double barrel ones. And in the beginning, it

2 perhaps had a couple of the 2M Strijela weapons, and nothing more than

3 that.

4 Q. Could you please tell us where the mixed artillery battalion was

5 deployed? Can you tell us its zone of responsibility?

6 A. Its zone of responsibility was the whole of Sarajevo because this

7 was an anti-aircraft defence unit.

8 Q. Can you tell us where the command post was?

9 A. I know, but I can't say it. I don't know the name and the place.

10 It is a place south of the corps command.

11 Q. When you say, "south of the corps command," could you be more

12 specific, please?

13 A. Just below the Grdonj facility.

14 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you tell us whether, as part of the 1st Corps,

15 the anti-armour battalion was also active?

16 A. Yes, after September 1994.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

18 like to show document D150 to Mr. Karavelic.

19 Q. Mr. Karavelic, do you have a document from -- in front of you from

20 April, 1994?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And from this document from April 1994, can be conclude that this

23 is an order about assigning to war duties of the 1st Motorised Brigade in

24 the armoured battalion?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11966

1 Q. Could you please tell us, as part of the armoured battalion, can

2 you tell which weapons did the armoured battalion have at its disposal?

3 A. Probably, that one single tank or those two tanks.

4 Q. Were there any APCs?

5 A. Later we tried to manufacture a kind of APC. We had a number, a

6 small number, of APCs with wheels. They had rubber tyres, wheels, and

7 these probably were left over from the police. I am not sure exactly

8 where they came from.

9 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you please tell us where the armoured battalion

10 was deployed?

11 A. It was a part of the 1st Motorised Brigade. This is the brigade

12 that used to be mechanised. It is a brigade from Kosevo Brdo, including

13 Zuc. That was its area.

14 Q. Did your artillery operate in the region of the Ozrenska Ulica, in

15 the theological faculty in Nedzarici?

16 A. I don't know what to say to this question. I do not wish to --

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President. I have a difficulty with the

18 question. I think the word missing before faculty was "theological"

19 faculty.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I understood, yes.

21 MR. IERACE: And the evidence thus far is that Ozrenska and the

22 theological faculty in Nedzarici were in areas controlled by the Serb

23 forces. That being the case, I have a difficulty in understanding the

24 question unless my friend means did the 1st Corps artillery target the

25 region of Ozrenska and the theological faculty. So perhaps that might be

Page 11967

1 clarified. I assume from the answer that the witness also has some

2 difficulty with the question.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but expressed it only, I think, after you were

4 on your feet. On the other hand, even if --

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that's not true. The witness was

6 giving his answer before I rose to my feet.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If that is true, I have to apologise. It is not

8 clear, my recollection. If I made a mistake, I shouldn't have done it.

9 I was just thinking about whether you can ask a question to the

10 witness even if the question is such, although being clear, would go in a

11 different direction from evidence we heard before.

12 MR. IERACE: I entirely agree, Mr. President, but because it has

13 not been put to any witness earlier that those areas were controlled by

14 the ABiH, it follows that it hasn't been the Defence case.

15 JUDGE ORIE: May I first ask you, Ms. Pilipovic, whether your

16 question was about operations in the area or operations targeting the

17 areas you've just mentioned, Ozrenska and the area of the theological

18 faculty.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was: Was

20 the artillery of the 1st Corps operating or active towards Ozrenska and

21 the theological faculty in Nedzarici.

22 Your Honour, the Defence would like to show a document.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, then I think the issue was caused by

24 the way your question was presented to us. I don't know. It said whether

25 they operated in the region "of" and not "towards."

Page 11968

1 So, please proceed.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Karavelic, is this a document of the 101st Motorised Brigade?

4 A. If that's what it states in the document, yes.

5 Q. In the fourth line, does it state that your artillery operated in

6 the zone of Ozrenska and in the zone of the theological faculty in

7 Nedzarici?

8 A. That's what it states in the document in front of me.

9 Q. Could you please answer, from which positions was it active from?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: According to the translation accompanying the

12 document, it reads: "Our artillery targeted the zone of reservoir in

13 Ozrenska Street." Perhaps that could again be clarified. We had the same

14 problem.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it is a translation problem or

16 anything else, but Ms. Pilipovic, your question comes to us in English

17 that the fourth line would state that "your artillery operated in the zone

18 of Ozrenska and in the zone of the theological faculty," where the

19 translation you provided says that "our artillery targeted zone of

20 reservoir in Ozrenska Street and in zone of the theology school in the

21 territory." There is again the same difference. I don't know whose

22 mistake it is.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I will clarify

24 it. Your Honour, It is not a mistake in the translation but I will

25 clarify the question in a way that Mr. Karavelic can answer the following,

Page 11969

1 whether this document states under item two, "information about our

2 forces."

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Do you confirm when we say "our forces" that these are -- that

6 this is the command of the 101st Mountain Brigade?

7 A. Yes, according to this document.

8 Q. As part of item two, under item five, as part of "our" forces.

9 When it says here, "our artillery," do you take that to mean that it is

10 the command of the 101st Mountain Brigade and that we are talking about

11 the artillery as part of the 1st Corps?

12 A. Well, first of all, I am not stating it, but this is stated by the

13 commander of this brigade. And when it states here, "our artillery," it's

14 an ambiguous term. It can be the artillery of another brigade which

15 provided support to this brigade. It can be another corps brigade or it

16 can be one that is part of his brigade.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Karavelic. This document talks about artillery

18 within the zone of the 1st Corps?

19 A. Well, that cannot be within anybody else's zone.

20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Karavelic, can you please tell us which position

21 targeted -- from which positions were the Ozrenska and the theology

22 faculty zones targeted?

23 A. From which positions?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. So I would first need to know the answer, whose artillery it was.

Page 11970

1 Q. You said it was the artillery of the 1st Corps.

2 A. It is all the artillery of the 1st Corps, in the corps, in the

3 brigade and in the division. So I would need to know exactly which one.

4 Q. I am only asking you about the Ozrenska Street and the theology

5 faculty. Which positions were targeting these areas?

6 A. I am not able to answer that question. I am saying again that it

7 is very difficult to respond to such minute details regarding a war that

8 lasted for four years and where there was a lot of firing.

9 Q. Well, you are saying that you don't know the artillery positions?

10 A. They could be anywhere in Sarajevo. I don't wish to defend

11 myself. I just wish to draw your attention to the kind of questions that

12 you are asking. It could be possible that it is from the reservoir, from

13 Mojmilo, from Dobrinja, from Zuc. The commander of the brigade has the

14 right to change the places of his weapons, to rotate the firing positions

15 at any point. And if he had been firing and this had been spotted, and

16 return fire came and it was very strong, perhaps he could have changed

17 these positions. In the course of a day, a mortar could be firing from

18 several positions in the course of the day.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. Well, these are questions which, for a soldier, if I may say so

21 without insulting anyone, these are absurd questions.

22 Q. Mr. Karavelic, in order to refresh your recollection, if the

23 Defence were to show you a document arising from your order, would you be

24 able to tell us which part of the zone of responsibility did the corps

25 artillery fire in?

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Page 11972

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence would

2 like to show Mr. Karavelic document 152.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Karavelic, do you have a document before you which states in

6 the left-hand corner: "Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

7 command of the 1st Corps, 25th of October, 1993"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And it says, "Order for defence." On the page of that document,

10 601, is that your signature?

11 A. If it is a document from the archives, I can say -- and if it is

12 not forged, then I can say that yes, it is.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document was

14 disclosed by the Prosecution to the Defence.

15 Q. Mr. Karavelic, do you see on the second page of this order under

16 item 5, doesn't it say, "1st Motorised Brigade is organising the defence

17 in the following zones: Vis, Brijesce, museum, Brotherhood and Unity

18 Bridge on the Miljacka river." This is under item 5.1.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And just below that, before it says 5.2, it says: "Command post

21 is in the area of the gas works." Could you please tell us where that is,

22 where is that on the Sarajevo map, this facility, Plinara, the gas works?

23 A. To this very day, I don't know where the gas works is.

24 Q. Under item 5.2, below it says, "Command post is in the area of

25 Kras, 2nd Motorised Brigade?

Page 11973

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you indicate where that is, please.

3 A. This probably refers to the Kras chocolate and biscuit factory, if

4 that is the one.

5 Q. Could you please tell us in which part of the city of Sarajevo it

6 is located?

7 A. I can't, believe me. Sarajevo is -- I don't know where the Kras

8 factory is.

9 Q. On the third page of this document, under number 5.6, it says --

10 so item 5.6, it says: "Croatian brigade Kralj Tvrtko is organising a

11 decisive defence in the following zone: Bridge on the Miljacka, Vrbanja

12 bridge, crossroads of Djuro Djakovic Street and Marshal Tito Street," and

13 underneath it says, "Command post in primary school Alija Alijagic."

14 Mr. Karavelic, can you please tell us until what time did the

15 Croatian Kralj Tvrtko Brigade, which was billeted in the Alija Alijagic

16 primary school, operated as part of the 1st Corps?

17 A. This is a document of October 25, 1993. Soon after that, this

18 brigade was placed under the command of the 1st Corps. When that brigade

19 was disarmed, and after that or since then it was formed, established,

20 under this name and it was under command of the 1st Corps until the end of

21 the war.

22 Q. Mr. Karavelic, can you tell us until what time period did you

23 operate jointly with, let's put it this way, with the Croatian side, the

24 HVO? Until what time was it together with the 1st Corps in Sarajevo?

25 A. The forces of the Croatian Defence Council in the city of

Page 11974

1 Sarajevo, we acted jointly from the beginning until the end, with the

2 remark that up until this date, until this time, maybe a month sooner,

3 earlier or a month later, the forces of the Croatian Defence Council were

4 not under the command of the 1st Corps but were under the command of

5 Mate Boban, Blaskic, and so on, even though they participated in the

6 defence of Sarajevo. But since that time, with the forming of this

7 brigade, according to a decision by the Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency, it

8 was under the direct command of the 1st Corps until the end of the war.

9 In other parts of the zone of responsibility of the 1st Corps, the

10 HVO was in Vares and Kiseljak, particularly in Kiseljak. It never acted

11 together jointly with the BH army and the 1st Corps, but in Vares, it

12 operated in a similar fashion as it did in Sarajevo.

13 A. When you say that in Kiseljak, it did not act as part of the 1st

14 Corps -- and the period of 1993, did the HVO [Realtime transcript read in

15 error "H"] shell Sarajevo from those positions? Did you have any

16 information like that while you were the commander of the 1st Corps?

17 A. Well, you know, there were all kinds of information and there was

18 information like that. And I can say that on several occasions, I

19 commanded the air force to -- I issued orders for the air force to launch

20 an attack, even though I never had any air force at my disposal.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. The interpreter apologises. Could the

22 answer of the witness be repeated so that the French booth can get it.

23 Thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were all kind of information,

25 amongst other things; I heard many things. And were I to tell you that I

Page 11975

1 myself, on numerous occasions, commanded the air force to take off in

2 order to protect and defend Sarajevo, but I actually never had any air

3 force or a single airplane, nor the defence of Sarajevo had such forces at

4 our disposal.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Karavelic, as commander of the 1st Corps in the period of

7 1992, 1993, and 1994, can you tell us how joint military groups operated

8 in Sarajevo?

9 A. This question is not clear to me.

10 Q. Do you have any information that in 1992, a joint military working

11 group was formed?

12 A. Not by the command of the 1st Corps. Maybe this refers to the

13 Main Staff, which formed a mobile command group. Is that what you are

14 thinking of?

15 Q. Mr. Karavelic, I am thinking about the joint group for talks

16 where members of the warring parties, at the level of the Main Staff,

17 took part in negotiations to resolve the situation in Sarajevo.

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Did you participate in the work of these joint military work

20 groups?

21 A. Quite often, yes.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see that it is time

23 for a break.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic. Before we adjourn, I first would

25 like to say for the transcript that on page 13, lines 4 and 5, the writing

Page 11976

1 of the name Ramiz Velic with a "V" instead of a "B" could create

2 some confusion, since there was a witness named Velic. But his name was

3 written with a "V" and the document which shows the name writes "Velic"

4 with a "B."

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in a similar vein, page 22, line 21,

6 "destroyed" should be "deployed." And might I have a minute or two in

7 the absence of the witness when we resume? It is in relation to a

8 question asked about five questions ago. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we perhaps do that after the break. We

10 will first have the break.

11 MR. IERACE: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I saw you were on your feet but

13 you sat down again.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no, I was hoping for the

15 break, Mr. President, that's all.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I can imagine that we are all very tired, so we will

17 adjourn until -- yes, Mr. Karavelic.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I was told yesterday,

19 Your Honours, that I wasn't speaking the truth regarding my detention and

20 stay in Sremska Mitrovica, I have a copy of an original document here. I

21 can also provide the original from Sarajevo about being admitted to the

22 Sremska Mitrovica prison and also my documents about my release from the

23 Sremska Mitrovica prison, and they bear my signature. So if this is

24 necessary, I can provide these documents.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 11977

1 MR. IERACE: If it will assist the Trial Chamber and if you so

2 desire, if that could be provided to the Prosecution, we are happy to

3 photocopy it and distribute copies.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness is allowed not to discuss the

6 document with the Prosecution but to give a -- give this document to the

7 Prosecution. Perhaps you give it to the registrar and she will then pass

8 it to the Prosecution. Madam Usher, could you please assist.

9 We will adjourn until 11.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you wanted to raise an issue. But before

13 doing so, might we just go into closed session for a very short period of

14 time. We are not yet in closed session.

15 [Closed session]

16 [redacted]

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12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I direct the attention of the

15 Trial Chamber to a question asked by my learned colleague shortly before

16 the break. At page, I think it is 31, line 25, it is incorrectly

17 indicated as an answer. In fact, it was a question. And it reads as

18 follows: "When you say that in Kiseljak it did not act as part of the

19 1st Corps in the period of 1993, did the H..." And I interpose, I think

20 that should be HVO, "...shell Sarajevo from those positions? Did you have

21 any information like that while you were the commander of the 1st Corps?"

22 I assume that that is an accurate translation of the question,

23 but I notice my friend is shaking her head. So perhaps we could first

24 clarify that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 11982

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will check this, but I

2 believe that this was "HVO," yes.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think it is appropriate for

4 Ms. Pilipovic to respond since she asked the question.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree that it is Ms. Pilipovic who will

6 respond; on the other hand, I think she needs the assistance of

7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since she can't read English.

8 MR. IERACE: I assume my reading of the question was translated

9 into B/C/S.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we can't check the translation.

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin can.

12 Ms. Pilipovic, after you have conferred with Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think, in fact, I

14 am sure that my question was whether there was any information or

15 knowledge whether from the positions in Kiseljak HVO was shelling

16 Sarajevo. I cannot follow my entire question the way it was phrased.

17 MR. IERACE: That will suffice, Mr. President, for the purposes of

18 my submission.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. IERACE: There was no suggestion in the Defence pre-trial

21 brief that the Defence included the proposition that any shelling in

22 Sarajevo was a consequence of Croatian forces outside Sarajevo.

23 Further, we have heard evidence from a number of senior UN

24 military officials throughout the period covered in the indictment. It

25 has not once been put to them, nor has the proposition been put to any

Page 11983

1 other Prosecution witness, that any of the shelling which is the subject

2 of the indictment originated from Croatian forces in Kiseljak or anywhere

3 else outside Sarajevo or, indeed, inside Sarajevo.

4 It is raised for the first time with two weeks to go in the

5 Prosecution case. In my respectful submission, the Defence should be

6 precluded from exploring that line of potential defence at this stage in

7 those circumstances.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic. Well, let me first establish

9 that the witness finally did not answer the question. That is at least,

10 for the time being, some relief for you, perhaps, Mr. Ierace. But I think

11 you are very concerned about the future, whether similar questions would

12 come up. Yes.

13 Ms. Pilipovic.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question of the

15 Defence the way that it was asked, and this was about the information or

16 knowledge, whether there was -- he did know anything about it, the Defence

17 asked Mr. Karavelic to look at the document where for the first time a

18 Croatian brigade is mentioned. And it was about the definition of the

19 Croatian brigade, which is why I asked the question about the HVO, the

20 Croatian Defence Council. And the witness himself said, "You mean the

21 Croatian Defence Council that was based in Kiseljak"? So my question was

22 in relation to the information that was in the document.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am not saying that -- and I don't think that

24 Mr. Ierace says that he doesn't understand what could have caused your

25 question. But his complaint is about introducing a, I would say,

Page 11984

1 potential totally new line of defence never indicated before.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document that was

3 shown to the witness, to Mr. Karavelic, is a document which is an order of

4 the 1st Corps of the BH army and the witness told us within the 1st Corps

5 of the BH army a Croatian brigade Kralj Tvrtoko also operated, was also

6 deployed. So we are talking about after the 1st Corps.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I am not saying that we are not talking about

8 the 1st Corps. But I think the complaint of the Prosecution is where you

9 put at an earlier stage that shelling might have been done by the Croatian

10 brigades. I mean, if you would come up tomorrow with --

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the point is that the

12 Croatian brigade Kralj Tvrtko operated within the 1st Corps in Sarajevo.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you would say shelling by the 1st Corps

14 towards Sarajevo is part of the Defence case. At least it is now clear

15 what your intent is.

16 Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: Provided there is that understanding, Mr. President,

18 that the question, or rather, I should say, the Defence case rests on

19 shelling by the 1st Corps, I have no complaint.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So -- and what Ms. Pilipovic actually did is to

21 identify one unit, I would say, for the 1st Corps, is that what --

22 MR. IERACE: That is not the case, Mr. President. The evidence

23 is, from this witness in cross-examination, that there was a Croatian

24 brigade, and that was under the command and control of the 1st Corps from

25 around the time of October 1993. He initially said it was shortly after

Page 11985

1 that date and then later seemed to be saying, it must have been before

2 that date, given the name of the brigade, and the fact of the brigade in

3 this order. He said in relation to the Croatian forces before that time,

4 his words were that, "We acted jointly from beginning to the end," meaning

5 the war. That appears at page 31, line 13.

6 The question which bases my objection and concern was as to

7 whether there was shelling of Sarajevo from Kiseljak, which I understand

8 to be some considerable distance from Sarajevo. That is an entirely

9 different matter.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. The second issue is not whether

11 there was any shelling from within the city of Sarajevo to the owned

12 positions, to the positions controlled by the 1st Corps, but that the

13 newly introduced element would be that a similar thing would have been

14 from outside Sarajevo.

15 MR. IERACE: If I could just clarify that, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. IERACE: The witness made the point that the unity of purpose

18 that operated within Sarajevo between Croatian and Bosniak forces did not

19 apply elsewhere, that is, outside Sarajevo. If required, I can find that

20 reference. So the issue bluntly is: Any suggestion by the Defence at

21 this late stage that shelling in the indictment was attributable to

22 Croatian forces, for whatever reason directing fire from Kiseljak, is

23 simply too late.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the clarification

Page 11986

1 given by my -- that my learned colleague asked for, can be -- he can have

2 that from the redirecting examination. That is what I understood, because

3 I think I am having some difficulty in following exactly what my

4 learned colleague said.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think the concern of Mr. Ierace which could not be

6 dealt with in re-examination is that you are putting questions to this

7 witness which suggest a totally new line of defence, that would mean

8 Croatian forces firing from outside the city of Sarajevo on the positions

9 inside Sarajevo.

10 May I do the following: Whenever you would touch the area of

11 firing by non-Bosnian Serb forces from outside the city, that you would be

12 very careful and that we then at least give Mr. Ierace the opportunity to

13 object to such questions. And then we will hear the question first, then

14 hear the objection, and then we will then decide.

15 Yes.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just before we resume with the

17 witness, in relation to the issues I foreshadowed this morning, if we

18 don't finish the witness before the end of the day, might I at least

19 reserve the last 15 minutes or so? Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: But I take it that we will --

21 MR. IERACE: We should --

22 JUDGE ORIE: We should finish this witness by today. Yes.

23 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Karavelic into the

24 courtroom.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the

Page 11987

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Page 11988

1 meantime, and in order not to waste time, we ask for the original of the

2 document or the copy of the original of the document that was provided by

3 the witness and we are still waiting for the copy of the document. Thank

4 you.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 MR. IERACE: Yes, I have given a copy to the Registrar.

7 Mr. President, I have another copy.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that distribution of this document

9 and inspection of the original should not cause considerable problems.

10 Please be seated, Mr. Karavelic.

11 Ms. Pilipovic, you may resume the cross-examination.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Karavelic, before the break we were speaking of mixed military

14 working groups. Could you perhaps clarify for us whether at the time,

15 that is in 1992, 1993, and 1994, whether there was also a military

16 commission which was in operation, mixed commission, and military mixed

17 groups, or did these working groups part -- were they part of the mixed

18 commission?

19 A. I can say that there was a group. I cannot confirm whether this

20 is one or the other thing that you are talking about, to be honest. I

21 cannot remember the documents. For instance, I believe that there were

22 such documents, but I did very frequently take part in these groups, asked

23 by the commander for a couple of hours to go to talks to the airport or

24 nearby, and I very frequently took part in these negotiations.

25 Q. Could you tell us, these talks, which sides, the parties -- which

Page 11989

1 parties did take place? I mean, the Serb side, UNPROFOR, which sides took

2 place?

3 A. Most of the time, four sides, the international forces, that is

4 UNPROFOR, BH army, VRS, and the HVO, the Army of Republika Srpska, and the

5 Croatian Defence Council.

6 Q. Are you saying to us that these meetings were held on the level of

7 the corps or on the level of the command?

8 A. Always on the level of the main commands.

9 Q. When you say "main commands," you mean the commands of the

10 Main Staff?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us who was the representative of the Serb side?

13 A. Very frequently, it would be Colonel General Tolimir, lieutenant

14 General Tolimir, and I was personally there when there was Cedomir

15 Sladoje -- Sladoje Cedomir, who was Lieutenant General, and there was also

16 security officer from the command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps - I

17 cannot remember his name - was also there once or twice also when General

18 Mladic came for the talks

19 in the course of 1994.

20 Q. Mr. Karavelic, could you tell us whether at these meetings,

21 whether there were records, minutes kept of these meetings, whether any

22 decisions were made?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you perhaps tell us about one of the decisions that were

25 made there?

Page 11990

1 A. Usually, the meetings resulted in some decisions, and the

2 decisions were about going through the current situation in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina political military situation, and very frequently

4 ceasefires and truces and the cessation of hostilities were discussed.

5 And this is specifically, I can tell you that without looking at any

6 document.

7 Q. Mr. Karavelic, did you, as a corps commander, commander of the

8 1st Corps, did you receive protests from UNPROFOR?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you tell us what did these protests relate to?

11 A. I don't know how many of those protests came in relation to the

12 violation of ceasefires, and there were also protests - again, I cannot

13 tell you how many of them - came on alleged firing of so-called mobile

14 mortars, as UNPROFOR called them, from some locations inside Sarajevo.

15 Q. Did you personally send some protests to UNPROFOR representatives?

16 A. You mean my command? Yes.

17 Q. Why did you send such protests?

18 A. I think I only made protests directing -- directed at the

19 violations of the ceasefire or the violations of cessation of hostilities.

20 Perhaps there were other reasons also.

21 Q. As commander of the corps, did you also receive casualty reports

22 of civilians in certain incidents in the city of Sarajevo?

23 A. For the most part, yes.

24 Q. Did you conduct inquiries into such reports?

25 A. I don't know exactly what you mean, but often, yes, that was the

Page 11991

1 case.

2 Q. If you can, could you give us an example?

3 A. All investigations regarding any kind of incident were conducted

4 by the Security Service of the general staff. Officers of my security

5 section were also included in those investigations, and everything was

6 done under the auspices of the civilian police. And in certain cases, it

7 was under the jurisdiction of the civilian courts of Sarajevo.

8 Q. Can you perhaps mention any incident about which you know

9 conduct -- enquiries were conducted and where civilians were casualties?

10 A. I remember well an incident in the B-Phase where a teacher was

11 killed with a certain number of pupils. I think it was the wife of

12 Vehid Gunic in that case, if I am not mistaken. And I know that all of

13 these expert groups worked for a long time.

14 Q. When you say all the expert groups of the commission worked on

15 it, when you say "expert groups" --

16 A. I am thinking of the courts, the civilian police, and also the

17 military security of the general staff and also of the 1st Corps.

18 Q. Specifically regarding this incident that you mentioned, when you

19 received the report about the incident, who did you pass the report on to?

20 A. Usually in such cases, my officers were there simply in order to

21 provide information from the corps. The reports were made directly by the

22 commission and they were sent to higher levels. I would be just briefly

23 informed by my officers who participated in this work.

24 Q. Were you informed about who these reports were ultimately sent to?

25 A. They must be sent to the general staff, also to the Ministry of

Page 11992

1 Internal Affairs and to the court.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Karavelic, can you tell us, in the period of 1992

3 and 1994, how frequent were the battles on the Sarajevo front?

4 A. What do you mean, how frequent were they? They went on nonstop.

5 Q. When you say, "nonstop," that means every day?

6 A. Yes, literally, almost literally every day.

7 Q. And can you tell us, in which part of the Sarajevo theatre of war

8 were the most intense battles?

9 A. The most intense battles in Sarajevo took place, first of all, in

10 Golo Brdo and Zuc, then in Azici and Stupska Petlja. Then third or fourth

11 place would be in Dobrinja or Mojmilo. In the fifth place, the Jewish

12 cemetery, and so on. In the sixth place, the Grdonj Spicasta Stijena

13 area.

14 Q. In those areas, could you please tell us how wide was the line of

15 separation between the warring parties?

16 A. It depends on the place. In some places, the lines were separated

17 literally by 10 metres on a point 100 -- 850 in Zuc. But in some places,

18 the line was about 100 metres apart.

19 Q. Mr. Karavelic, could you please tell us something about the

20 operation "Jug South" conducted by the BH army?

21 A. Operation "Jug"? Could you please explain? That doesn't mean

22 anything to me.

23 Q. From the month of July until October, was the operation "Jug

24 South" planned and conducted by the army of BH?

25 A. Do you mean in 1992?

Page 11993

1 Q. Yes, 1992.

2 A. Well, perhaps I would know it by some other name, but this name

3 doesn't mean anything to me.

4 Q. What about from the month of November, Operation

5 Envelope, "Kovera"?

6 A. I don't know anything about that.

7 Q. Can you tell in which area, which region, this action was taken,

8 the Operation Envelope?

9 A. From the territory of Igman, Bjelasnica, Trnovo and Jahorina. I

10 think that this is it.

11 Q. In which period did this take place? Was that November?

12 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a problem --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have a problem in

14 translation.

15 JUDGE ORIE: It appears on page 48, line 18, that the answer of

16 the witness on the question on Operation Envelope Koverat would be, "I

17 don't know anything about it," which seems to be inconsistent with his

18 following answers on the other questions.

19 Did you know about the Operation Envelope, "Koverat"?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's correct.

22 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Karavelic, could you tell us specifically the period or the

25 duration of the Operation "Envelope"?

Page 11994

1 A. I can't tell you the period exactly. I think it was late autumn

2 1992.

3 Q. Mr. Karavelic, did you -- do you have any information about the

4 existence of ammunition-producing workshops, also for the repair an

5 maintenance of weapons, specifically in the brewery Pivera, Bistrik?

6 A. The Pivera in Bistrik. I know about others, but the Bistrik

7 Pivera, I don't know what to say about that. It is possible, possibly

8 yes, probably no.

9 Q. Can you tell us about the ones you do know about?

10 A. For example, the Zrak factory and some other places. Weapons

11 were repaired at the Marshal Tito Barracks quite a lot. And about the

12 rest, you would have to ask the specialised industry ministry.

13 Q. Were you informed that there was such a workshop in Alipasino

14 Polje?

15 A. No.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, allow me just to

17 consult with my colleague.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague will

19 complete the cross-examination. I think we still have about one hour

20 left.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Approximately, yes. If it could be done in 50

22 minutes, it would be fine by doing it as efficiently as possible.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I take note and I would like

24 to thank the witness, if he can answer by "yes" or "no," in advance.

25 Mr. President, to start with, we are going to need the assistance

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Page 11996

1 of Madam Usher and of my colleague, Ms. Pilipovic. Before we do anything,

2 we are going to have to show some maps, please. The first map that we

3 would like to show, we haven't been able to copy it because of its size,

4 but it was organised with the technical booth which is going to show it

5 on the screen. We have only reproduced sections of this map, but we will

6 show it, we will let you have a look at it, and perhaps the witness will

7 be able to indicate things on this map. Thank you.

8 I think we should be able to see it on a screen. I don't know

9 whether this will be possible. Here we are.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, would you be able to have a look at this

12 map and confirm that this is a headquarters map of the BH army?

13 A. I cannot confirm that.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think the question should at least

15 also indicate a date, as of what date.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This will come. This will

17 come, Mr. Ierace.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If you first -- if we can first identify whether this

19 chart comes from, then the next question might be -- if on the other hand,

20 it would be totally out of the time frame of the indictment period, then,

21 of course, the order perhaps should be different.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, would you, please --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Would it be possible to

25 approach the map to the witness so that he can have a took at what is in

Page 11997

1 the top left hand corner. This is a map that was disclosed to us by the

2 Prosecution.

3 Q. Witness, could you please read the dates that are on the map?

4 Aloud, please.

5 A. The beginning of the 1st of December, 1992, ending on the 4th of

6 April, 1993.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 Witness, is there a stamp on this map, a blue stamp which is

9 showing the coat of arms of the BH army; yes or no?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Witness, this map, is this a working map? I don't

12 have it before me but I believe that is what it is called, a working map.

13 A. It states "working map," and in the beginning you said that this

14 was the working map of the general staff or the main staff, but it is

15 actually the working map of the 1st Corps of the Army of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. Very well. So this is a working map of the 1st Corps, that is of

18 the Main Staff of the 1st Corps, right, you identified as such?

19 A. If it is from the archives, yes.

20 Q. Thank you very much. This is the first series of the maps, and

21 this map can now be set aside and we are going to go on, unless Mr. Ierace

22 has some problems.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I enquire through you whether

25 the Defence intends to tender the map?

Page 11998

1 JUDGE ORIE: Do you intend to tender the map?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have already answered this

3 question, Mr. President, by saying that we have made copies, partial

4 copies, but first of all, we wanted to show it because we are not able to

5 copy this document which has like three or five square metres of surface.

6 It is outside of the possibilities of the Defence. And --

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... let's try to be

8 practical. What you seek is to establish through this witness that the

9 part you copied are parts of this map, and then tender the smaller copies.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the reason I rise to my feet is the

11 Prosecution would have appreciated some indication from the Defence that

12 they intended to show the witness the map and photocopies of sections of

13 it. Pursuant to a direction which you gave many months ago, I don't want

14 to waste time but simply state that, in future, could the Defence please

15 be in strict terms required to comply with that direction. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let's have in mind what Mr.

19 Ierace said, that in the future you should strictly follow the rules.

20 Then let's not discuss whether you did it at this moment, and please

21 proceed.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Second

23 map, same procedure, please. We can set this map aside.

24 Q. We will first ask you, Witness, whether you know the name of

25 Mr. Zlatko Mujezinovic. Do you know the name of this person?

Page 11999

1 A. Zlatko Mujezinovic. There is a Zlatko and there is a Mujezinovic,

2 but I don't know whether -- in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but I

3 don't know whether his name is Zlatko.

4 Q. Again, this map covers the period 10th of March, 1993, end of

5 January 1994. If we can show it, please. Witness, can you read the

6 title, the name of this map?

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again because I received absolutely

8 no warning, although my friend found time, it seems, to speak to the

9 video unit, perhaps he could be so kind as to assist us by telling us

10 what the map shows, since we can't see it from this distance.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the exercise you are doing now has

12 taken a lot of preparation. There would have been ample opportunity --

13 even if the issues would have come up in examination-in-chief, there would

14 have been ample opportunity, seeing what efforts you have to make, to

15 inform the Prosecution. Would you please tell now the Prosecution what

16 this map is.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, gladly,

18 although --

19 JUDGE ORIE: No, I didn't ask for any comment at this moment.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. This is a map, an

21 army map, which is showing the situation of lines at a given period, that

22 is between the two dates which I have just given you a moment ago. This

23 was the March and January 1993. Now, this map is showing lines of both

24 parties, of both sides, and this is a map of Sarajevo. It should be on

25 the screens. Perhaps it is not well positioned, and I apologise.

Page 12000

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the screen does not show the map

2 properly. If he could just tell me, does it show the whole of the city,

3 does it show the entire confrontation lines around the city?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is showing not only the

5 entire city, but more than that --

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Madam Usher,

7 could you please approach the Prosecution bench to give a better view to

8 the Prosecution on this map.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the meantime, and still in

10 order to save time, Mr. President, I would like to just tell Madam Usher

11 that we will -- Madam Registrar, that we will need all the maps in

12 relation to the 27 sniping incidents and the 5 incidents, shelling

13 incidents, that were shown to the witness yesterday so that we can look at

14 them in parallel with that.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

17 know whether -- whether Mr. Ierace -- whether Mr. Ierace has anything to

18 say so that we can finish this.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If Mr. Ierace has something to say, he will be on his

20 feet and tell us. Please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very

22 much. So perhaps we can show the witness -- thank you, Madam Usher,

23 thank you very much. Perhaps we can show the witness very quickly the map

24 that we saw yesterday in relation to incident number one. The reference

25 is 382 and this is Exhibit P3728.

Page 12001

1 In the meantime, we will distribute an exhibit, Mr. President.

2 This exhibit has several copies of the map that we saw earlier, these A-4

3 copies, in order to make it easier for everyone to read them.

4 Does the witness have the piece 54, the Exhibit 54? May I ask if

5 the Exhibit 154 has been shown to the witness.

6 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that there is some confusion,

7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. You are asking the map of incident number one, you

8 said. We had two series yesterday, one on shelling incidents, and one on

9 sniping incidents. Was it the sniping one or shelling one?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We are now talking about the

11 sniping incidents, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the reference which I

14 give --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The number of the exhibit,

17 Prosecution Exhibit, is 3728.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and which --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And the Exhibit is 154.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We can't follow that last reference.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which last reference,

22 Mr. President?

23 JUDGE ORIE: The last one you gave. You said 154.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no. I am sorry. The

25 Defence exhibit which we are submitting now.

Page 12002

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked 154. It should be D153.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

4 Ms. Pilipovic is taking note. Thank you, Madam Registrar.

5 While this document is being distributed, perhaps I should

6 explain, Mr. President, that we have grouped, at the time, the title of

7 the map that we saw with the stamp, and then also the key and also the

8 elements of the map which are in relation to various incidents.

9 Q. Witness, I would like you to have a look at page three of this

10 document, please. Do you have it before you? It is in relation to the

11 1st Motorised Brigade. You can see it to the top right corner. Do you

12 see it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, the darkest line which is located to the

15 south of the second line, is the line of the Serb forces; yes or no?

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. IERACE: I am having some difficulty in following exactly what

19 this page three is, even having re-read the explanation. I take it from

20 the explanation that page three is a portion of the first map that was

21 held up and shown to the witness. Perhaps I could first clarify that. Is

22 that correct?

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If this is a question that is

24 addressed to me, Mr. President, I would answer that this is self-evident.

25 In fact, extremely self-evident.

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Page 12004

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there have been two maps shown to

3 the witness, so there is not as such any self evidence in this. But just

4 to clarify the issue --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- in the view of the Defence, this is copy made of

7 the first map shown to the witness?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have

9 explained the map, the methodology that we are going to use, earlier. I

10 said that the first map, chronologically speaking, is the first one, and

11 now I am furnishing it in copied segments, and I even have the titles.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have answered "yes," that would have

13 been enough. Then, please, if it is in dispute, if should be asked to the

14 witness but I don't think, Mr. Ierace, there is any dispute about it.

15 MR. IERACE: There is no problem with that.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just to be precise, that all

17 other elements come from the same map, and the other exhibit will relate

18 to the other map.

19 Q. Now, Witness -- no, I withdraw that.

20 Is it true that the dark line which is to the south of the other

21 line, to the south of the first line of defence, is the line of the Serb

22 positions; yes or no?

23 A. That's what it says on the map. However, this line is not

24 accurate because we can not verify exactly how far the defence line

25 stretches.

Page 12005

1 Q. I am not talking about the stretching of the defence line but I am

2 talking about something else. These lines which are an official map of

3 the headquarters of the corps, is this line, yes or no, a Serb line?

4 A. I said in the beginning that this is how it is on the map.

5 However, the wrong maps were taken from the archives of the Army of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. Witness, are you saying to us that what is indicated on this map

8 is false, is incorrect?

9 A. Here south of the Miljacka river, since the line two or three

10 buildings are not included on the line. It looks as if the Sarajevo

11 Romanija Corps did not hold that line over the Miljacka from the first to

12 the last day of the war. So the entire left bank of the river was held by

13 the Army of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and whoever drew did this did not

14 do it thoroughly, whoever it was, even if it was me, and it was done

15 superficially.

16 Q. I have to then consider, Witness, I have to tell you that this

17 line which goes under the river, below the river, is falsely indicated on

18 official maps of the headquarters.

19 A. This official map is not signed by anyone.

20 Q. Very well. But it has a stamp. Could you please answer: It has

21 a military stamp? Could you please answer my question? My question is

22 not to find out whether it has been signed.

23 A. Based on that, it would seem that you are right.

24 Q. Very well.

25 Witness, could you have a look at the line which goes to the east

Page 12006

1 of the stadium, and I am just saying for the parties that the stadium is

2 mentioned -- is located a little bit -- the stadium is this little round

3 form which is located on the -- in the right corner of the left corner.

4 This line, that is below the stadium, is that correctly inputted, yes or

5 no?

6 A. No.

7 MR. IERACE: In terms of the translation, I am left a little in

8 the dark --

9 JUDGE ORIE: May me ask the parties now, do we know where the

10 stadium is by now? I know it is a clarification for us. I know it's been

11 a couple of months. Do you know --

12 MR. IERACE: The problem is, Mr. President, the next sentence in

13 the question: "This line that is below the stadium, that is correctly

14 inputted..." I have no idea what line that is.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. Could the counsel

16 go a little more slowly.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could we just slow down. I think which question,

18 what I understood well was about just part -- one part of the line or

19 several parts separated.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the second

21 question that I asked was in relation to the line below the stadium, and I

22 can see it - perhaps the others cannot see it - but I can see a dark line

23 which goes along the stadium and then it goes a little bit below the

24 stadium, and then it goes until elevation 648.

25 Q. This particular line, has that been correctly inputted, indicated,

Page 12007

1 marked, yes or no? This is a line which is a dotted with long lines.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It is still not correct, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, yes or

3 no? It's still not clear. Let me ask the witness. Do you see the

4 stadium on the map?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is this part here, between two

6 lines. Yes, I see it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Do you see a dark line which starts right from the

8 stadium, turns a bit to the west and then turns south again?

9 MR. IERACE: If I could assist, Mr. President, it is on the

10 screen.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you thinking of this line here

12 that I am pointing to?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be zoomed in a bit because I have some

14 difficulties. That is -- now we have north on the top. That line. Is

15 that correctly placed there?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that it is.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Next line to the south, could you indicate, that

18 turns to the west. That one, yes. Could it please be moved on the ELMO.

19 Is that line correctly put on this map?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this line wasn't put in

21 correctly either.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

24 Q. Next page please, Witness.

25 And we can withdraw the document. Could you please take the next

Page 12008

1 page, please.

2 JUDGE ORIE: And put it on the ELMO. Could you please assist,

3 Madam Usher.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, if we can put it on the

5 ELMO, yes.

6 Q. Witness, we can see here three different types of lines. Is it

7 true to say that the most northern line, the one that appears darkest on

8 the screen, whether it is dotted or not, does this line indicate Serb

9 defence line, yes or no?

10 A. This dark black line in the north, yes, it does.

11 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

12 Now, the middle line, intermediary line, is it true that this is

13 an ulterior position of the defence line of the so-called Sarajevo army

14 positions, that is of the BH army position?

15 A. I cannot confirm that. I don't know what this intermediate line

16 means.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would like to have the large

18 map back, please, and so that the witness can have a look at it. I just

19 like to be specific -- yes, the original map, which is this one, please,

20 so that the witness can have a look at this area on the original map

21 itself, and by looking at the key which is mentioned on the map.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On this map, this should mean that

24 the initial positions that I am showing right now were the positions of

25 the 1st Corps of the BH army, and then this middle line, this thinner

Page 12009

1 line, indicates the advance of the 1st Corps BH army forces. That is what

2 that should mean.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karavelic, could you please indicate to us what

6 date is connected with the first line you indicated? Yes.

7 So you said the 1st Corps lines, the first you mentioned, I would

8 say the most to the south, what date is related to that, according to the

9 legend?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It states here the 1st of December,

11 1992. And then the line which has been moved forward in these colours, if

12 I can see properly, because I can't tell colours apart very well, it

13 indicates the 14th of December, 1992.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is clear.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. I

16 think that perhaps we can leave the map against the wall, if that is

17 possible.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It will not stand. Perhaps we can just leave it on

19 the floor.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21 Q. Witness, now, looking at the screen now, is it true that there was

22 a considerable advance, an important advance, on the location which is

23 called Mount Grdonj? Could you please show it, indicate it on the ELMO,

24 please.

25 A. That is this part here.

Page 12010

1 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please show us where Sedam Suma is

2 on the map, seven woods.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, my learned colleague is not in any way

4 recording what he is showing and not showing so from the transcript. It

5 will not be possible to determine what the evidence actually was.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has pointed to the area between the

7 dotted line, the most south of the three, and in the area above it up

8 until the middle dotted line.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, just an observation, there is a small triangle which we

11 can see just below the line, and this triangle, is it identifying the

12 highest elevation of the map -- on the mount, as a general rule?

13 If you don't know that, then maybe we can go on to something else.

14 A. It is difficult to see on this copy whether this part is the

15 highest elevation or this part here.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you.

17 We could go on to the next page of this exhibit, the one that is

18 showing the region of Kobilja Glava. If it can be placed on the ELMO,

19 please.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is about

21 all of the incidents that are referring to this rectangle of buildings

22 which appear more or less in the centre, or rather to the right of the

23 map. We can see this rectangle, dark rectangle, and this is a group of

24 buildings that we spoke about yesterday.

25 Q. Witness, the line that we have which is dotted, which is to the

Page 12011

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 12012

1 north of the map and which goes between Zminjak and Jezerine, is that

2 line -- does this line indicate their positions?

3 A. It shows here that, yes, that is so. But I wouldn't recommend

4 this to be considered as an official source of information for several

5 reasons.

6 Q. Are you telling me that this is a wrong or a false map?

7 A. It is difficult to say whether that it is incorrect or that it is

8 false. It is just a matter of -- that it was made by people who were not

9 professionals.

10 Q. Are you telling me that the maps of the headquarters of the

11 Main Staff were done by amateurs?

12 A. Quite frequently, yes.

13 Q. Thank you for this answer.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Now, Mr. President, I am just

15 saying for the transcript that this map is in relation to the sniping

16 incident number 4 but also to all the other incidents that are located in

17 the same area that is shown on the map. So in order not to do the same

18 exercise for all of the other incidents because this is the same area on

19 the map.

20 Q. I am going on to the following page, Witness, now. No, in fact,

21 we can abandon this map now because -- we can leave it because the witness

22 said that this -- he wasn't recognising this.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So I think I would now like

24 the exhibits -- I will just confer, Mr. President.

25 Q. Witness, the second map that was shown to you, do you consider

Page 12013

1 that this was also a map that was done by nonprofessionals, by amateurs?

2 No, no, do not put anything on the map.

3 Witness, the second map that was shown to you, do you also believe

4 that this map was also made by nonprofessionals?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when you talk about "the other

6 map" when we have approximately 32 maps in front of us, that is not the

7 required position. So you are now referring to the map, second map shown

8 to the witness in the beginning, a large map, black and white. I still do

9 not know the title because it --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is a working map, "radna

11 karta." It is a working map just like the other one.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So you are referring to that map, and your question

13 was whether that was made by amateurs as well.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please answer the question, Mr. Karavelic.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a working map of the chief

17 of the nuclear biological chemical defence arm branch, and it was part of

18 the 1st Corps. The chief of that section was a person who had -- was not

19 an officer before that. All maps like this which were made by the chiefs

20 of the branches were like this because they were for their own personal

21 use. They were made by them.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the question was about whether professionals

23 made these maps or those who lacked the necessary professional

24 qualifications to do so.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that in my previous answer,

Page 12014

1 that this map was made by a person who was not an officer before the war.

2 So he wouldn't know how to mark in certain elements because of his

3 inability to professionally read a map.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr.

6 President, we are not going to show the other maps that we have prepared

7 with this method, because simply this witness is saying that official maps

8 have been done, have been made by amateurs. So we take note. These are

9 the ones that we have been given by the Prosecution. And I am going on to

10 another line of questioning. I apologise to Madam Usher. Perhaps --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do what you want to do, but don't

12 bring comments under the disguise of what, in your view, are the

13 conclusions to be drawn from the testimony of the witness.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence is

16 saying this. This is not a personal opinion. It is just saying that it

17 will not present its maps to --

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... I said what you

19 will not do. We will find that. Do what you are going to do. Do not

20 explain why because of your conclusions you would not continue a certain

21 line of question.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed. Thank you very much.

23 I am proceeding by saying that this is a violation of Articles 20 and 21.

24 Q. Witness, you spoke of preparation, industrial preparation, in

25 1991, and you spoke of this in your statement. Do you remember about what

Page 12015

1 you said in your statement; yes or no?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Is it true that starting from 1991, the

4 political structure of Sarajevo is trying to industrially prepare for the

5 war; yes or no?

6 A. I don't know. I was never a part of the political structure.

7 Q. What do you mean then by industrial preparation for war?

8 A. Are you thinking of the preparations after April 1992?

9 Q. I am talking about from 1991. These are your words in your

10 statement, Witness.

11 A. In 1991, I was still in the Yugoslav People's Army.

12 Q. Witness, I am asking you, what did you mean by "industrial

13 preparation for the war"? If you cannot answer, please say so.

14 A. I cannot answer.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 Witness, and you said --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, just for the understanding of the

18 Chamber, the line you just confronted the witness with, could you please

19 read it for us so that we know what is the context, so the whole line.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I said that if the witness was

21 unable to tell us what it was about, that he should say --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I am asking you, just for the understanding of the

23 Chamber, to read the part of the statement that you just confronted the

24 witness with.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Yes, indeed. I

Page 12016

1 will find it later, Mr. President. I will read it out later. Thank you

2 very much.

3 Q. Witness, you said on page six of your statement that there were

4 excellent communications in Sarajevo between the military and the

5 political, the two sides, the military and the political side. Is that

6 correct?

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, there are two statements. Perhaps my

8 friend could just quickly indicate first or second to the witness.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly. I am talking

10 about the statement taken the 22nd, 23rd October, 2001, 31st of October

11 2001, 2nd of November 2001.

12 Q. Would you please answer, Witness?

13 A. There was pretty good cooperation, and if I said that, I stand by

14 that, even though my thoughts on that are maybe subjective.

15 Q. Very well. Therefore Witness, in Sarajevo there was, therefore, a

16 certain amount of control of political authorities that they were

17 exercising on the military authorities. Was that the case, yes or no?

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. IERACE: I appreciate you want a minimum of interruptions.

21 But the question was that it was put to the witness that he said in his

22 statement there was excellent communications. The words are: "There was

23 always good communication." I think it is important, in the interest of

24 accuracy, that the adjectives not be overdone. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you used a different

Page 12017

1 adjective, would you please then take better care of the text you are

2 quoting.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly.

4 Q. Could you still answer my question Witness, please?

5 A. What was the question? I am sorry.

6 Q. The question was the following: Therefore, there was a political

7 control that was exercised over military authorities?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I just -- in the transcript, it is not the same

10 question. But the first question was whether --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If I am constantly being

12 interrupted, it is very hard for me to repeat it word for word.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I first let you finish to repeat the question, and

14 then I only noted that, in the first time, your question was about a

15 certain amount of political control, and in your second question there

16 was, at least in the translation that comes to us, political control.

17 Was there a certain amount of political control or was there -- or

18 was there political control?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a little unclear to me what it

20 means, "a certain amount." The army was under the control of the

21 political authorities.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You mean it was full control? Yes. That's clear.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. Witness, were you born in Sarajevo?

Page 12018

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you live a part of your life in Sarajevo?

3 A. When I was exchanged, I entered Sarajevo at that time and I

4 remained there, and I am still living there today.

5 Q. But before, did you live in Sarajevo before?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you. I am just going to come back to the situation in

8 Sarajevo, and I am saying that the line is 21. And I also said that this

9 was given --

10 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel is speaking far too fast. The

11 interpreters are unable to follow him.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you slow down such that the

13 interpreters can follow you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Did I understand you well that you are referring to

15 page 10929 and then to 10930?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you indicate the line on the first page

18 that I mentioned.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is line 25

20 on page 75. This is line 21, 2-1. It is actually marked on the page 75,

21 line 25. I don't know why I always have to be repeating everything.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we have checked page 10929, line 21,

23 and in the English transcript it has nothing to do with this topic. It,

24 therefore, appears that the page reference, if my friend is referring to

25 the English transcript, is incorrect.

Page 12019

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 12020

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you are unable to follow him at this very

2 moment.

3 MR. IERACE: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please, at the end of

5 your examination -- cross-examination verify the line taking one minute,

6 perhaps, when there is a re-examination of the witness, and then you will

7 be allowed to give the source.

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the source is

10 this one. It appears that there are errors in the pagination, and there

11 is nothing I can do about that. So let us not be asking the impossible.

12 Let's proceed.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 Q. So you are confirming that these weapons never fired at Sarajevo.

16 Is that correct?

17 A. I said earlier that in the attempt to break through into the town

18 of Sarajevo by the Army of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, we did used to ask

19 for fire from those weapons at -- on Igman.

20 Q. Could you please answer with a "yes" or "no," Witness. I wanted

21 to know whether these weapons ever fired at Sarajevo; yes or no?

22 A. What do you mean when you say, "on Sarajevo"? Where? Sarajevo

23 is a large target.

24 Q. I didn't say "on Sarajevo," I said "in Sarajevo," from Sarajevo.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

Page 12021

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Into the town of Sarajevo.

3 JUDGE ORIE: The witness now understands the question and he can

4 answer it. Would you please answer the question whether these weapons

5 fired "from," and I understand "from within Sarajevo."

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is not what he

7 asked. The question was, were multiple rocket launchers from Igman,

8 which is far from the city of Sarajevo. It is outside of the Sarajevo.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I never asked that, ever.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may now tell me -- I think

11 your question, whether it is a matter of translation or not, but shifted

12 sometimes from firing "at" or firing "from." Do I understand you well

13 that you want to know from this witness whether these weapons fired from

14 within the city of Sarajev?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But this was exactly this.

16 Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So that is now the question, Mr. Karavelic.

18 Would you please answer the question.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From within the city of Sarajevo,

20 while I was the commander of the 1st Corps, no.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Very well, thank you. That is clear.

23 Does the name of Kazani mean anything to you, yes or no?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How many -- there were Serbs were killed in Kazani?

Page 12022

1 A. You can get the answer from the Sarajevo court.

2 Q. Do you know that?

3 A. No, I don't.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Karavelic,

5 please answer the question. Yes, and do not refer -- if you know, say

6 yes. If you don't know, tell us. Please --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I cannot pretend to be

8 telling a greater truth than the truth that I am saying now. There were

9 informations that thousands of Serbs were killed at Kazani. And then

10 information after that came down to a couple of hundred and then

11 afterwards, after court enquiries, and I don't know about that, I don't

12 have any contacts with the courts, is that there weren't even a couple of

13 dozen of victims. The court was in charge of this case. This case

14 arrived here before this Tribunal and then it was sent back to the

15 Sarajevo court.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18 Q. How did these people die?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you. Do you know the name of Silos?

21 A. If you mean the Silos in Tarcin, yes.

22 Q. Was that a detention camp for Serbs?

23 A. I think so, yes. I assume so because I had nothing to do with

24 that camp. It was under the authority of the police.

25 Q. Does the word Borsalino mean anything to you?

Page 12023

1 A. That is the first time I am hearing it.

2 Q. Stela?

3 A. Is that a cafe?

4 Q. Indeed. Indeed. Is it also a location of a command post, as far

5 as you know?

6 A. I think that that is a place in Grbavica near the stadium or the

7 Trg Pere Kosorica Square. I can't place it, but I assume it is there.

8 Q. As far as you know, is that also a command post?

9 A. I think that it is not.

10 Q. Thank you. Does the name of Kulin Ban suggest anything to you?

11 A. Only in the sense that some smaller units of the HVO perhaps had

12 that name, Kulin Ban, until the Kralj Turtko brigade was formed.

13 Q. Thank you very much. What about Kobra?

14 A. Yes. As a unit, I don't know where it was, I can't say that, but

15 the name is familiar.

16 Q. What about the Ljiljan group?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would like to come back to the question of

19 relief. Is it true --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please explain what he means.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What shifts do you mean?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

23 Q. The reserves, the shifts, how did the shifts operate? How did the

24 rotation of shifts operate?

25 A. Exclusively at night. It couldn't operate at night.

Page 12024

1 Q. The shifts, were they done in small groups?

2 A. Depending on the situation. If the trenches were dug from the

3 city towards the lines, if they were wider, then larger groups could go,

4 so it depended on that. It could be both.

5 Q. Very well. You stated that the army indirectly were helping the

6 supply of civilians in food and other things?

7 A. Would you be more specific here? If you know that the corps had

8 45.000 men in the city and in view of the fact that there was no

9 humanitarian aid into the city, it was suspended, and if you also know

10 that a soldier would eat half of his ration and leave a half for his

11 family, then, yes, then it would be possible.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please wait for the

13 translation in English to finish. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You are asked to wait until the translation is

15 finished, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, by the interpreters' booth.

16 MR. IERACE: And we don't have the last question at all.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please repeat the last question.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Yes, thank you. I am trying to save time, Mr.

19 President. Thank you.

20 Q. Witness, do you know where the kitchens were located in general of

21 the BH army? Were they in the command posts or were they somewhere

22 elsewhere?

23 A. The kitchens were most quite often quite close behind the front

24 line, but it's impossible for me to know all of the places where they were

25 located because there were many of them.

Page 12025

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 Witness, you said that water was brought to the army in cisterns

3 which were towed by small lorries. Is that correct?

4 A. It is not possible to generalise, because perhaps there were only

5 a couple of cistern trucks in the whole of Sarajevo, mostly this was

6 brought by hand.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, you said also that it was

8 particularly difficult to distinguish between stray bullets and sniper

9 fire. Is that correct?

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, is my friend suggesting this was said

11 in evidence or in a statement? Perhaps he could assist us to that minimum

12 extent.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am talking about the same

14 statement that we already mentioned on page 11.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Would you please answer the question?

18 A. Would you please repeat your question?

19 Q. Yes. Did you say, sir -- did you state that it was particularly

20 difficult to distinguish the situation when it occurred between a stray

21 bullet and when there was actually sniper fire?

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful if my friend could

23 read the relevant sentence.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please do so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: "The term sniper is overused, and it is very

Page 12026

1 difficult to prove that an individual has been sniped and not just shot by

2 an ordinary rifle."

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the question --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we just first -- did you finish your reading,

5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I think that that would be

7 sufficient, yes.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, quite clearly, the question

9 misrepresented the statement in future --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase it,

11 Mr. President.

12 MR. IERACE: In the future, perhaps, Mr. President, during this

13 cross-examination at least, Mr. Piletta-Zanin could on every occasion read

14 the relevant sentence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that would be valid for the

16 next three minutes because you have still three minutes to go. Please

17 rephrase.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, gladly.

19 Q. "Is it true that it is very difficult to distinguish between a

20 sniper rifle and an ordinary rifle, which could also be a stray bullet"?

21 A. In general, and I am saying again, you would need to examine the

22 victim in order to determine exactly what kind of a bullet it was.

23 Q. It is difficult, yes or no?

24 A. Yes, I would say so.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

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Page 12028

1 Witness, you spoke of mobile mortars and that you also stated that

2 you were never able to find trace --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 So I deduce from your answer, Witness, that in spite of all your

6 organisation, political and military, it was impossible for you in

7 Sarajevo to find out what was happening on some levels of your

8 organisation. Is that correct? Yes or no?

9 A. I cannot respond with a yes or a no. You would have to be more

10 specific.

11 Q. I am very specific. I am talking about mobile mortars, because

12 you were never allegedly able to find the trace of them. So in the

13 organisation, you were never able to control certain levels of your

14 organisation where there was firing?

15 A. No, because I believe that they never existed.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

17 MR. IERACE: The question --

18 JUDGE ORIE: It is quite clear, the question is not specific at

19 all. And the witness, I would say, not surprisingly, gives a similar

20 answer, as he did the first time. That whatever his knowledge would have

21 been, certainly hardly any other answer might be possible, I would say, on

22 the basis of the question. It is not a specific question; it is a very

23 general question.

24 You have one minute left, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 12029

1 Q. Witness, is it true that in spite of all the organisation,

2 military organisation, of the 1st Corps, you were never able to control

3 these mobile mortars, yes or no?

4 A. I think that they never existed.

5 Q. Witness, if I tell you, if I put it to you, that there have been

6 many testimonies that mentioned their existence --

7 MR. IERACE: I object.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That I am not going to quote

9 because I have no time to quote because I only have one minute to go.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that unfairly represents the

11 evidence. There has been much evidence of suspicion and strong

12 suspicion. It is inaccurate to say, using the words of the question, that

13 there have been many testimonies, implying that there were eyewitnesses.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you put the answer in such a

15 way where it does not provoke the objections, then you might more easily

16 get the answers you are seeking. Would you please rephrase the question.

17 Yes.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there have been

19 many testimonies that stated that they knew about the existence of mobile

20 mortars that were frequently firing from certain locations.

21 Q. If I put it to you that there have been people who have seen these

22 mortars and to whom -- and who were told, "Leave the city immediately for

23 your security," does this mean anything to you?

24 MR. IERACE: I object. That is not the evidence. That phrase

25 related to something entirely different.

Page 12030

1 JUDGE ORIE: It is not clear in my recollection. Do you have any

2 specific knowledge, or does it ring a bell to you, that -- or did you ever

3 hear about, whether controlled or not, mobile mortars and what could you

4 tell us about it?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know how many

6 times I received warnings from the UNPROFOR command in Sarajevo in

7 reference to these mobile mortars and also from activities from the

8 areas of the PTT, the Kosevo Hospital, and the State Hospital. Numerous

9 times, I engaged my own police forces at the very moment when they

10 reported this to me from UNPROFOR, so within a few minutes. Because my

11 command post was close to the State Hospital, it is only 200 to 300 metres

12 away. I would have police out on that location within two or three

13 minutes on several occasions, and I never managed to find any of them.

14 Several times I asked the UNPROFOR command to film the incident and also

15 to react and also to inform me. And they never managed to do anything

16 either.

17 I can say that there were mortars, many mortars in Sarajevo. Any

18 brigade had mortars from 60, 62, and 120 millimeters. The fewest of the

19 120 metres, but my command and my officers.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Would it have been possible that someone not under

21 your control would have fired such mortars from those places?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are always subversive

23 activities, and elements infiltrated from outside of the town could do it

24 on purpose, to the benefit of the attackers on Sarajevo, if that was

25 useful. But I would not wish to be drawn into something like that.

Page 12031

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, one last question and then --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, but we will not

3 have time to finish. And I would just like us to take note.

4 Q. So you are saying that it is possible that these mobile mortars

5 were infiltrated, that is, taken from the Serb side. Did I understand

6 you correctly?

7 A. No, you didn't understand me correctly. Because when I am asked a

8 question whether it was possible that it was somebody else from Sarajevo,

9 and I am expected to answer with a yes or no, I am not able to answer with

10 a yes or no. But if it is somebody from Sarajevo, then I can ask you

11 another question: Why couldn't it be somebody else who entered the city

12 and did it in order to benefit the attackers?

13 Q. Indeed.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, is there any need to re-examine the

16 witness?

17 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before Mr.

19 Ierace can begin, I would like to clarify the matter, and in order not to

20 waste time, I wanted that when Mr. Ierace tells me this is not what the

21 evidence has shown, this is not what a witness testified, could he

22 perhaps say precisely where this evidence is not correct?

23 JUDGE ORIE: If you are referring to evidence previously given in

24 this court, if you are referring to it, it is your task to identify where

25 it is and what it says if the other party challenges the fair

Page 12032

1 representation of that evidence. And we have had many occasions where

2 easily the other party would accept the representation of the evidence

3 given before, but very often we had to experience that it was not well

4 quoted or was a misrepresentation of the evidence, and I think it is also

5 on the basis of this experience that too often the source of the evidence

6 has to be verified, unfortunately.

7 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have something to raise in the

9 absence of the witness.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Karavelic, may I then ask you to just leave

11 the courtroom for one second. I hope it is one second.

12 [The witness stands down]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we have now had many hours of

15 cross-examination. The Prosecution retained this witness on the witness

16 list, even though it took off some 60 other witnesses. We did so

17 primarily out of the sense of fairness, given that the Defence case is, as

18 I understand it, that the sniping and shelling of civilians, either

19 deliberately or indiscriminately, was perpetrated, at least in a large

20 part, by forces from within the city. I thought it appropriate to retain

21 this witness to make him available for cross-examination so that it could

22 be put to him and the Defence could explore that part of the case.

23 After some hours of cross-examination, it has not been put to him.

24 I draw that to your attention at this stage before I commence my

25 re-examination. I regard it as a matter for the Trial Chamber, as to

Page 12033

1 whether it requires that to be put or whether you are comfortable to

2 simply note it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have one minute. Yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I clearly said that

7 after you told me that I would get three minutes, one minute, I said that

8 we would not be able to finish, and I said that we did not finish.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is the way how you used your time. We

10 resumed at 10 minutes to 2.00 and it is now -- 10 minutes to 1.00 and it

11 is now 25 minutes past 1.00.

12 Madam Usher, could you please bring in the witness again?

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, before the witness comes in, I do have

14 some questions in re-examination. I don't know whether your Honours have

15 questions. The Hungarian issue does require some immediate, indeed,

16 urgent attention. Although naturally we would not prefer that the

17 witness be here over the weekend, I think you will appreciate when you

18 hear me on the Hungarian issue, that it takes priority.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace, I think you can approximately

20 assess how much time you would need. As far as I can see at this moment,

21 there are no questions from the Bench. Yes.

22 Could you please bring in the witness, Madam Usher.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

25 Q. Sir, you were asked some questions yesterday about Juka's unit or

Page 12034

1 brigade. Could you please clarify whether it was a unit or a brigade --

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could

3 Mr. Ierace give me the reference, the page and line, so that I can --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, Mr. Ierace may proceed.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I have no right

6 to find out.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I will tell you if you really can't find it in your

8 computer, but you didn't take the effort to try to do it.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

10 MR. IERACE:

11 Q. Could you please clarify whether it was a unit or brigade or

12 something else and how many people were in it, approximately.

13 A. I think that it was formed on paper as a brigade, and that's what

14 it was called, a brigade. I don't believe that it had more than a couple

15 of hundred men, and it was linked to the Main Staff of the Territorial

16 Defence, i.e., the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. When you say it was linked to the Main Staff, was it formally

18 within your command structure? And by "formally" I mean, was it supposed

19 to be part of your command structure or not?

20 A. No. Because the zone of responsibility of the 1st Corps, that's

21 where the Main Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was located. So

22 any higher command had the right to link one or two units for itself.

23 Q. You were asked about 15 minutes ago about when shifts rotated.

24 When did they rotate?

25 A. Most frequently, in 99 per cent of the time, during the night,

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Page 12036

1 during bad visibility or during bad weather conditions. During the

2 daytime, only if the weather was bad, if there was fog and so on.

3 Q. You were asked where were the areas of the most conflict. You

4 mentioned a number of areas in priority. Amongst them was Golo Brdo.

5 Where approximately is that?

6 A. West of the Zuc elevation.

7 Q. Azici?

8 A. Azici is between Rajlovac and Ilidza.

9 Q. And, finally, Stupska Petlja?

10 A. Stupska Petlja --

11 Q. Which direction?

12 A. -- is between -- between the main part of the city and Ilidza,

13 Stupska Petlja. It is crossroads.

14 Q. You were asked a number of questions about the Croatian unit. What

15 was the size of the Croatian unit when it fell under your command and

16 control in 1993? How many men?

17 A. I think it was a unit that numbered from 500 to 700 men.

18 MR. IERACE: Finally, Mr. President, might the witness be shown

19 the document that he handed over just before the morning break. I have

20 translations.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The document he handed over to the Registry, yes.

22 Madam Usher, could you please assist.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I also have a number of copies of a

24 draft translation of that document. It is a two-page document. They are

25 not stapled.

Page 12037

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. IERACE: Four copies, unstapled.

3 Q. Sir, does your signature appear on this document?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When did you receive it?

6 A. I received this document on the 9th of May 1992 when I was

7 deported from Sremska Mitrovica to Banjica to Belgrade and then to Pale.

8 And at the same time, I apologise because yesterday I said this was on the

9 11th of May.

10 Q. All right. And does the -- who gave you the document?

11 A. This was given to me personally by the officer in the section

12 which took in and released inmates in the prison service.

13 Q. Does the document in the top left-hand corner indicate anything as

14 to the institution which produced it?

15 A. It states "collection centre Begejci" and then they cross that out

16 and above it is written legibly "Sremska Mitrovica."

17 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace.

19 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

21 what happens with this exhibit, but if this exhibit is going to be

22 tendered --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Are you going to tender this?

24 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence should

Page 12038

1 be authorised to ask one or two questions in relation to this exhibit.

2 MR. IERACE: I would oppose that, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is new --

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would you hear me briefly on that?

5 The document was made available to the Defence during cross-examination;

6 it arose directly out of cross-examination. They had ample time to ask

7 questions. They did not need an English translation.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I need an English translation.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Why do you need an English translation?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Because there are details that

11 I was perhaps not able to grasp or perhaps a French translation, that

12 would have been nice as well. So that is just a point.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You may put two short questions in relation to the

14 document.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 Q. Witness, did you have this document yesterday on you?

17 A. No, not here. It was in the -- in my suitcase, in my room,

18 together with some other documents that I have over there.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No other questions, thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karavelic, this means that this concludes your

21 evidence in this court. I thank you very much for having come to

22 The Hague. I know it is quite a distance. You have answered the

23 questions of both parties, and I would like to thank you for that and wish

24 you a safe trip home again.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 12039

1 THE REGISTRAR: May I have a number for this document, please,

2 Mr. Ierac?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

4 Mr. Ierace, I think you asked time, and may I ask you to do it as

5 quickly as possible. First, on the time frame for the Prosecution's case,

6 and second on the Hungarian text.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, yes. For reasons which will become

8 apparent, I ask that I make my submissions on the Hungarian issue in closed

9 session.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We will then turn into closed session.

11 [Closed session]

12 [redacted]

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13 [redacted]

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

15 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

16 the 22nd day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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