Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12330

1 Thursday, 25 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Yes. I did understand, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you have provided

10 additional copies of the "determination de la Defense avec la Chambre aux

11 temoins employes du bureau du procureur Monsieur Philips et Lesic." I

12 also understood that it has been filed this morning, but the Chamber has

13 not yet had an opportunity to read it. It is not on our desks yet. So we

14 will do it as quickly as possible.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

16 provided a copy of the document to the Prosecution so they know of it.

17 Also, as soon as it was possible, we faxed the document and last night we

18 also sent another document stating that since we were not able to copy the

19 transcript, we needed a few more hours in order to inform you about our

20 position. Even though we were talking about Rule 94 bis, we could have

21 asked for the deadline to be respected, but we did it in this way and that

22 also applies to the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I think we

24 first now turn into closed session in order to hear the answer from Ms.

25 Pilipovic on a question that has been put to the Defence by the Chamber.

Page 12331

1 Yes.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before that, I

3 don't know if I have already said that, but I was asked to mention for the

4 transcript the fact that we gave to the Registry a translation of Exhibit

5 D85, that was a document that hasn't been dealt with yet. But we did talk

6 about it yesterday. So this document should now be in the hands of the

7 Registry.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I -- I take it that the Defence has been

9 prepared by the Tribunal and, therefore I do not expect any problems from

10 the Prosecution in respect of this translation?

11 MR. STAMP: Perhaps we could have an opportunity to look through

12 it. I don't expect there to be any problem, but we will apprise the Court

13 if there is.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it is more practical to do it the other way.

15 There was the document D85 was provisionally admitted because there was no

16 translation. There is a translation now. Therefore, we admitted the

17 document, but of course, if there is any specific issue arising from this

18 translation, the Prosecution always can address the Chamber and ask to

19 reconsider its decision.

20 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So then D85 is admitted into evidence. And apart

22 from D85, then now the translation of that same document is D85.1 is

23 admitted into evidence as well. May we then turn into closed session.

24 [Closed session]

25 [redacted]

Page 12332

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Page 12333

1 [redacted]

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5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we will ask the usher to bring in the witness,

7 I first would like to give already orally the decision on the request of

8 the Prosecution to add Mr. Hogan to the list of witnesses and to have his

9 statement admitted into evidence under Rule 92 bis. The request is denied

10 and you will receive a written decision, I hope, by tomorrow. But I

11 already can give you in short, the reasons why. There are two elements in

12 the statement. Neither of these elements -- one is an explanation of the

13 efforts taken by the Prosecution to find and analyse UNPROFOR reports, and

14 the second part is measurements on sniping incident locations. It's --

15 the Chamber is of the opinion that the interest of justice do not demand

16 at this moment adding the name of Mr. Hogan to the witness list, and apart

17 from that, the relevance that it would add to the evidence already

18 presented in this court, the statement of Mr. Hogan is not such that under

19 Rule 92 bis, we think we should use our discretionary power to admit this

20 evidence. That is in short our decision, but you will get it in detail in

21 a written decision.

22 I expect as well, either this afternoon or tomorrow, that the

23 decision on 92 bis on all the other statements will be filed so that it is

24 accessible to both parties. Yes, Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: Thank you for that, Mr. President. Just before the

Page 12334

1 witness is recalled, do you have in mind a time or a stage of the hearing

2 today when we will return to the issue of the recalling of Zoran Lesic and

3 Richard Philipps? I will be present to suit the Trial Chamber's

4 convenience in that regard.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I couldn't tell you yet, because we have not seen and

6 we have not read what the Defence has written. So, therefore, we will

7 first, during the first break, I take it that the Chamber will read at

8 least the response and then consider whether we could deal with it today

9 or only in the beginning of next week -- tomorrow or the beginning of next

10 week.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we have just received the French copy

12 ourselves, but I anticipate I will be ready at the beginning of the next

13 session, should you be ready. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I will inform Mr. Stamp so that he can call you.

15 Meanwhile I see that the addendum to the report of Ewa Tabeau has been

16 handed over to the Chamber. I take it that -- no, you have not yet

17 received it. It will be given to the parties and in due course, the

18 parties will be given the opportunity to put additional questions to Ewa

19 Tabeau, but only in respect of this addendum.

20 Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

21 courtroom.

22 [The witness entered court].

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Hadzic. I again remind you

24 that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the

25 beginning of your testimony.

Page 12335

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may resume the cross-examination of the

2 witness.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague has

4 three or four questions and then I will finish the cross-examination.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just to check about

6 the time, we were informed that we still have an hour, so did I understand

7 that correctly?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yesterday I

9 believe you told us one hour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think I said half an hour, at least that is

11 what the Registrar told me and I then checked it when she did write down

12 her calculation. And I had to agree with her it was half an hour. But if

13 we together made a mistake, then you would please come and tell us exactly

14 how you would have calculated more than one half hour left at this moment.

15 Please proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 WITNESS: ISMET HADZIC [Resumed]

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Hadzic.

21 A. Good day.

22 Q. Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief and also during

23 cross-examination by the Defence, you said that you had good relations

24 with UNPROFOR. Is this correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12336

1 Q. During the time that you were commander, and I am talking about

2 the period in 1992, 1993, and 1994 were there any incidents with members

3 of UNPROFOR in the sense that they were physically mistreated or that they

4 were shot at by members of the 5th Brigade? Were there any incidents like

5 that?

6 A. As far as I know, no.

7 Q. How often did you have meets with the members of UNPROFOR?

8 A. With the French Battalion, which was stationed at the airport, we

9 had meetings every week.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

11 like to show the witness a document. It is document D163.

12 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you have a document before you? From the 5th of

13 December, 1993?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the right-hand corner it is signed by Commander of the

16 Headquarters of the Supreme Command, Delic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Below the date, the 5th of December, 1993, it is noted that an

19 inquiry was conducted about the wounding of an UN member in the settlement

20 of Dobrinja.

21 A. At our intervention, I repeat, we asked the general staff to

22 launch this investigation in order to establish who shot the French

23 soldier.

24 Q. Mr. Hadzic, does it say in line two of this document, since the

25 authorised UN committee did conduct an investigation about the wounding of

Page 12337

1 Legionnaire Petkov --

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's note, we don't have a copy of

3 the document.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. -- who is part of the UN forces, the result of the inquiry notes

6 that the soldier was wounded from a building which was in the zone

7 controlled by members.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence believes

9 that perhaps we did give this document to the interpreters. Perhaps, they

10 didn't receive one by mistake, but I do have a copy for the interpreters.

11 Q. So, Mr. Hadzic, this document, does it indicate that a member of

12 the UN was wounded in a zone which was under the control of the army of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. He was wounded, yes.

15 Q. During your term in office, did you have contact with Mr. Stjepan

16 Siber?

17 A. Mr. Stjepan Siber was in the General Staff and during the war, he

18 visited me only once when I left the hospital.

19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, are you aware that Mr. Siber has written a war diary?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mr. Hadzic, if I were to tell you that Mr. Siber in his diary,

22 under the date of the 15th of July 1992 wrote that in conversation -- in a

23 conversation which he had that day, Colonel Jones also participated, and

24 he asked him for snipers from Dobrinja not to fire at them.

25 Can you answer us, from which positions did the snipers of the 5th

Page 12338

1 Motorised Brigade fire at the members of UNPROFOR?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

3 MR. STAMP: The question has in it a component which assumes that

4 the witness has accepted that snipers of the 5th Motorised Brigade did

5 fire at members of UNPROFOR.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please clarify the underlying issue,

7 Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Hadzic, did members of UNPROFOR, while you were commander of

10 the 5th Motorised Brigade, protest to you about snipers from the 5th

11 Motorised Brigade firing at UNPROFOR members?

12 A. Never.

13 Q. Mr. Hadzic, if I were to tell you that Mr. Stjepan Siber, in his

14 diary, wrote that a member of UNPROFOR was lodging a protest because

15 snipers from Dobrinja were firing at members of UNPROFOR, would you agree

16 with me that this is correct?

17 A. No. I repeat no. Because we controlled the entire area of

18 Dobrinja and -- we did not control the entire territory of Dobrinja and

19 Serb snipers fired from Dobrinja I and perhaps they were the one who hit

20 the French UNPROFOR members.

21 Q. Mr. Siber says that this -- the French UNPROFOR protested to him

22 saying that snipers from the 5th Motorised Brigade, from that zone, were

23 firing on UNPROFOR members.

24 A. Could you please explain to me who Mr. Jones is?

25 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I stated that Mr. Siber, in his diary, wrote that on

Page 12339

1 the 15th of July, 1992, Mr. Colonel Jones, a member of UNPROFOR, lodged a

2 protest with Mr. Siber because snipers from Dobrinja were firing at

3 members of UNPROFOR, thinking of snipers from the army of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So those from the 5th Motorised Brigade. So if Mr.

5 Siber published this in his diary, would you agree with me that this

6 correct?

7 A. No, no, this is not true.

8 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you --

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I -- there seems to be quite some confusion. Are

10 you asking whether the complaint by Mr. Jones was justified because the

11 facts upon which it was based were true; or are you asking whether it is

12 true that there was a complaint? Which is, of course, something

13 different. I repeatedly heard you put the question to the witness which

14 is not very clear, and then -- or at least if you take it literally, it is

15 about whether it is true that there was a complaint. And I hear the

16 witness answering again and again about the underlying facts. Could you

17 please clarify that there is no further mistake -- no further confusion.

18 MR. STAMP: Before my friend continues, may I just observe that

19 she is questioning the witness about something which she has not shown him

20 but she quotes from the book and having regard from the documents that we

21 have been delivered has been quoted incorrectly from the book. In that

22 she said that somebody in a war diary wrote that members of the 5th

23 Motorised Brigade were firing at UNPROFOR members. From a document that

24 we have had from the Defence, we do not see that there. So if she is

25 going to quote from the book, we ask her to quote accurately, firstly, and

Page 12340

1 secondly, perhaps it is better if she is going to ask about the writings

2 of somebody, to let him have a look at the writings.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the Chamber did not check the

4 correctness of the quote --

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... but would you

7 please do it or give the text too.

8 THE REGISTRAR: D164.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you have a document before you where it states on

11 the first page, "Deceits, Falsehoods and Truth" and this is written by

12 Stjepan Siber?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Does that document have a page 108?

15 A. This is not a document.

16 Q. Is it a copy -- is the copy that is in front of you, does that

17 copy have page 108?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I will quote to you, paragraph two, on page 108, where

20 Mr. Siber states --

21 MR. STAMP: I am sorry.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Hadzic, paragraph, "the discussion was then joined by Colonel

24 Jones," this is written by Mr. Siber, "and he asked for us snipers from

25 Dobrinja not to fire at them and then I answered, 'Mr. Colonel, whoever is

Page 12341

1 firing at you, you should fire at them back because that person was not

2 ordered to do this by anyone.'"

3 Mr. Hadzic, did Mr. Siber, either verbally, or in writing, tell

4 you about the protest by -- the protest by Colonel Jones about snipers

5 from Dobrinja firing at UNPROFOR members in Dobrinja?

6 A. Never. I am reiterating, we did not control the entire Dobrinja.

7 The BH Army never fired at soldiers from the mission, soldiers who were

8 honorably carrying out their duty at Sarajevo airport. And they were

9 helping us so that we could survive in this area.

10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, a couple of minutes ago, we had a document -- you had

11 a document before you from which it could be concluded that an UN member

12 had been injured in the area of responsibility of the BH Army as he was

13 unloading a humanitarian aid convoy.

14 So what is the truth?

15 A. The truth, the only truth is that we did not fire at these people

16 and we asked ballistic investigation, our investigation from the Main

17 Staff, from the 1st Corps, in order to find out who fired at these people,

18 at this person, who was bringing humanitarian aid to us.

19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, bearing in mind your first answer, you said that

20 members of the 5th Motorised Brigade never fired at UN members and bearing

21 in mind the document that you were given by the Defence, which is the

22 document of the BH Army, also bearing in mind what Mr. Siber says about UN

23 protest about snipers in Dobrinja firing at UNPROFOR members, would you

24 agree with me that having looked at these documents, you are not telling

25 the truth?

Page 12342

1 A. Madam before this honourable Court, I swore that I would tell the

2 truth. I cannot tell falsehoods. I am reiterating, never have our people

3 from the 5th Motorised Brigade fired at UNPROFOR members. The document

4 you have shown me from the General Staff does not confirm it. This is our

5 own request. We wanted to have this investigated because the UNPROFOR

6 never managed to investigate this, never wanted to establish this.

7 Q. Mr. Hadzic, at my question, whether members of the 5th Motorised

8 Brigade fired at UN members you said no?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, in 1995 you were removed from the post of the

11 commander of the 5th Motorised Brigade by the commander of the 1st Corps,

12 Mr. Karavelic. Is this correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you tell us why were you replaced?

15 A. I was replaced because I had dismissed 200 people from the

16 manpower of the 5th Motorised Brigade, 200 people who were not able to

17 carry out military service, either because of their age, because they were

18 using drugs or because they were sick.

19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, while you were a commander, specifically, we are

20 talking about 1992, 1993, and 1994, did you personally have complaints

21 from the command of the 1st Corps about your work?

22 A. If there had been complaints, people would have replaced me.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

24 like to show the document D165.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. I don't want to interfere, but you

Page 12343

1 said three or four questions. You took 20 minutes now, approximately, of

2 the half hour remaining.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can you see the document which on the left corner

5 bears the date of the 7th of December, 1993? From the document you can

6 see that the document was delivered to the command of the 1st Corps. Is

7 that correct?

8 A. The document has not -- doesn't have a seal anywhere. So, a

9 certification.

10 Q. I am just asking you whether this document is a report on the

11 problem of command and control in the 5th Motorised Brigade to be

12 delivered to the commander of the 1st Corps. I am just asking whether

13 this is what it says in the document in the first line.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Hadzic, in the penultimate line of this document, seventh line

16 from the bottom, it says "he is behaving in an autocratic manner,

17 provoking argument. He is not carrying out duties from the authority of

18 the commander because he is only receiving people in his office, and only

19 those people who are going through Dobrinja i.e. through the tunnel."

20 From this document, may one conclude that you have had problems

21 with the command of the 1st Corps and that these reports, such reports,

22 were delivered to the command of the 1st Corps?

23 A. No, it cannot be concluded from this document.

24 Q. So what you're saying is that you were never called for talks at

25 the command of the 1st Corps?

Page 12344

1 A. Because of this document, never.

2 Q. Did you call for talks because in Dobrinja you wished to establish

3 Muslim armed forces?

4 A. Never. I never tried to do that, ever.

5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you know about the prison called "Sunce" or "Sun,"

6 which is in the area of Dobrinja under the control of the 5th Motorised

7 Brigade?

8 A. Such a facility was never under the control of the 5th Motorised

9 Brigade.

10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, if I put it to you that people who were in the camp in

11 the facility called Sunce, a report was filed to the Prosecutor's office

12 of the International Tribunal against you, a person who was in charge of

13 detaining people, only Serbs, in the prison Sunce. Could you perhaps

14 answer this question, whether you have any such knowledge of these things?

15 A. No.

16 Q. If I put it to you that there are people who have filed such a

17 report, have submitted such report, and who were in this prison in 1992,

18 1993, and 1994, would you agree with me that this is correct?

19 A. Madam, the Dobrinja Brigade had, as part of its composition,

20 military detention which was only for the members of the 5th Motorised

21 Brigade for breaking discipline. And this facility that you have

22 mentioned under this name was never under the control of the Dobrinja

23 Brigade.

24 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether this facility existed and it was

25 under the control of the special police or of the battalion of the

Page 12345

1 Military Police, under the control of the Mr. Kerim Loncarevic?

2 A. I don't know that from the 5th or the 6th -- the 5th of July, from

3 which brigade was founded, we did not have this facility, we did not

4 control it. From the 6th of July, from the moment that the Dobrinja

5 Brigade existed as formation of the 1st Corps, we did not have such a

6 facility.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence would now like to ask

8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin to continue cross-examination, who has got a couple of

9 questions.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President may I just say

12 that we have had a problem in the calculation in the time left over by

13 something that you had said: [In English] "An hour left."

14 JUDGE ORIE: I have checked it the transcript and that is what the

15 transcript says and it also says clearly that the Prosecution took two and

16 a half hours. It is my recollection that I said half an hour, but I might

17 make a mistake, I am not quite sure, but I repeatedly said that the

18 Prosecution took two and a half hours. I will grant you 10 more minutes.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. You stated, page 13, line 14, a moment ago, you said that nobody

24 had fired on UN forces. How can you be certain --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

Page 12346

1 MR. STAMP: I don't think that --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please -- I didn't think that that is what

3 the witness said, Mr. Piletta-Zanin: "Nobody had fired on UN forces." At

4 least, from the context, it must have been certain that the witness

5 testified that none of, may I say it, his troops or those belonging to

6 his troops fired at UNPROFOR.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, that nobody from the

8 5th Brigade had ever fired on the troops of the UN.

9 Q. How could you be absolutely certain of this and not allow the

10 possibility that any of your men may have taken a spontaneous decision to

11 fire?

12 A. I told you that the cooperation that we had with the French

13 Battalion which was based in Dobrinja, it was very good cooperation. Once

14 a week we had meetings, and if such a thing had happened, these

15 people would have told me about the problem. They never told us about

16 this. At these meetings, they did not warn us that anyone was firing from

17 our side on them.

18 Q. Witness, my question is the following: Could you, today, under

19 oath, completely rule out the possibility that one of your people had

20 ever opened fire on UN forces? Yes or no?

21 A. I did not understand the question.

22 Q. Witness, today, under oath, could you completely rule out the

23 possibility that one of your people, perhaps even without orders, had

24 ordered -- had fired on UN forces? Could you please answer with a "yes"

25 or "no."

Page 12347

1 A. Could you please repeat the question.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I thought that

3 my question was clear.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The question is, Mr. Hadzic, whether you think it

5 would be totally impossible that someone of your troops, perhaps without

6 you knowing it or not anything being reported to you, might have fired

7 once on someone of the UNPROFOR forces?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what you said, that

9 is possible. It is possible that somebody had fired and I don't know

10 about it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, this is your answer.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank

14 you.

15 Q. Witness, the tunnel from Dobrinja to Butmir was officially opened

16 on the 30th of July. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, before the official opening of the tunnel,

19 was this tunnel in operation?

20 A. Could you please clarify the question?

21 Q. Witness, if the official opening of the tunnel occurred on the

22 30th of July, could we consider that, a few days before the official

23 opening, the tunnel had indeed been broken through?

24 A. No. It was linked and it was open on the 30th of July, 1992. And

25 after the breakthrough or the linkage from one to the other side, the

Page 12348

1 first units of the BH army then left Sarajevo and went out to Mount

2 Igman.

3 Q. Very well. Witness --

4 MR. STAMP: Just for the record, there is a matter of

5 translation which I think is important. I think the date should be the

6 30th of July, 1993.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it says 1992, but that is --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No confusion.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no confusion. Please proceed.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, a little before the official opening of the tunnel, the

12 people were still working on the tunnel, right? Yes or no?

13 A. Even after the opening, the people were still working on the

14 tunnel.

15 Q. Very well. These people were soldiers; yes or no?

16 A. They were soldiers. From our brigade, people who worked there,

17 they were soldiers, and also people from other brigades.

18 Q. Very well. There was no Serb who was forced to work there; yes or

19 no?

20 A. Could you please repeat your question? I don't find it very

21 clear.

22 Q. There was no Serb worker there who was forced to work on the

23 tunnel; yes or no?

24 A. The people who worked there were from our brigade. They were all

25 volunteers to work on the tunnel. There were 71 of them. Out of that,

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Page 12350

1 there were 15 who were non-Bosniaks, and the rest were Bosniaks.

2 Q. I would just ask you do answer very briefly, this tunnel, from

3 July 1993, did it allow you to bring in weapons? Yes or no?

4 A. To start with, no.

5 Q. Very well.

6 This tunnel did it allow you to bring in or bring out forces?

7 A. There were no forces that were brought in, but there were

8 people -- there were forces that were brought out.

9 Q. So this tunnel was a legitimate military target?

10 A. I don't know that. Because -- because through the tunnel,

11 civilians and soldiers went through it. That was the only communication

12 between Sarajevo and the world.

13 Q. Very well.

14 Witness, you spoke in your statement about the army in that it did

15 not go to certain -- did not go to get supply water from certain stations

16 because it had tanks, water systems, water tanks that were mobile. Is

17 that correct; yes or no?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 You said in your statement that you were getting your water from

21 the brewery. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Witness, was this a brewery that was located in the area of

24 Bistrik or in another area?

25 A. Yes, in the area of Bistrik.

Page 12351

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 Witness, was there just a brewery there in Bistrik, as far as you

3 know?

4 A. There is only one brewery in Bistrik.

5 Q. Witness, do you know if in this area, and in this brewery, wasn't

6 there a workshop for making -- for manufacturing weapons? Yes or no.

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Witness, these mobile cisterns, were these cisterns towed by

10 civilian vehicles? Yes or no?

11 A. Could you please clarify what you mean.

12 Q. They were driven by a soldier.

13 These water cisterns that you talked about, were they towed, that

14 is, were they towed by civilian vehicles or at least did they seem to be

15 towed by civilian vehicles?

16 A. It is a motor vehicle with a tank towing a cistern attached and

17 the driver was a member of the brigade. We received the cistern from the

18 utility company and they used those cisterns in order to wash the streets.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 Witness, do you know if vehicles like front-loading lorries could

21 be used by the army for identical needs, that is, in order to dig and in

22 order to use as excavators?

23 A. I don't know that

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, I am just going to

25 confer, Mr. President, for 30 seconds.

Page 12352

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, this is our last question --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have already gone 12-13

5 minutes. Last question now, means last question.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The very last one.

7 Q. I am going to give you the following dates three dates: 1st of

8 June 1993, 12th of July 1993, and 4th of February 1994. Are you certain

9 that there was no combat on these dates that I have just mentioned?

10 A. As far as I know, no.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the

13 witness?

14 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

16 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

17 Q. In respect to the last question you were asked by the Defence, you

18 said, as far as you know, there was no combat on three dates that you were

19 given. You are in a position, I take it, to speak about your brigade's

20 area of responsibility; is that so?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Yesterday, you indicated that a JNA that occupied Mojmilo hill

24 were eventually designated by you as a Serb army, and you said: "Serbs

25 arrived and changed the flag." The Serbs changed the flag from what flag

Page 12353

1 to what flag?

2 A. When the soldiers just reached the Mojmilo hill, it was the JNA

3 with the Yugoslav flag. After the Albanian members of the JNA fled from

4 Mojmilo, the composition changed. The Serb army came and they hoisted the

5 Serbian flag in that place. There was no longer the Yugoslav flag flying.

6 Q. Were these regular Serb army soldiers that hoisted these flags,

7 the Serb flags?

8 A. I think they were members of the reserves.

9 Q. You said in cross-examination that in the early months of 1992, a

10 large number of Serbs left Dobrinja. You also said before that in

11 response to me that approximately 30 per cent of the personnel in your

12 brigade, and I should say approximately 13, 1-3 per cent of the personnel

13 in your brigade, were Serbs. Among the civilians, did all the Serb

14 civilians leave Dobrinja or did some remain and continue living there

15 during the conflict?

16 A. Not all left Dobrinja. A lot of Serbs remained to live there.

17 The most precise data is the data from the Red Cross, that is in

18 possession of the civilian protection, civil protection.

19 Q. You said there was a period of time when you had problems with a

20 Military Police unit. Did -- was any action ever taken to resolve these

21 problems or could you tell us what became of that?

22 A. During the structuring of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, this

23 problem was resolved, and the person who was commanding that police unit

24 was replaced. And that formation that he headed was disbanded and the

25 people were re-allocated to other brigades.

Page 12354

1 Q. You were shown a document marked D160 and I ask the Court if you

2 can be shown that document again.

3 MR. STAMP: My apologies to the Court. I really have ought to

4 have asked that he be shown document D158.

5 Q. You see on that document near the top the words: "Komanda one

6 Korpus"? Do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You see some words written immediately below that. What are those

9 words? What do they mean?

10 A. In the establishment of the brigade that is one sector that

11 existed.

12 Q. What is the sector that you see there described?

13 A. As far as I know, it dealt with morale, psychological problems of

14 people.

15 Q. Continue. Tell us what it does and then I will get back to you.

16 You were saying it dealt with morale, psychological problems. Go on.

17 A. Psychological aspects, cultural and entertainment, lectures,

18 cultural evenings. All of those things that in some ways could relax the

19 people in the brigade.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, what I am asking you to do is to tell us exactly

21 what those words say.

22 A. "Sector for morale."

23 Q. Go on. What does it say after that?

24 A. "Psychological, social and military questions."

25 Q. Are there the initials or the acronym "IPD"? What is that?

Page 12355

1 A. Sector for morale, conduct, psychological issues, social issues.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. STAMP: I would just respectfully ask the Court to take note

4 of the translation provided.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But perhaps before doing so, could we ask the

6 witness -- Mr. Hadzic, could you tell us what stands "VP" for?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Military questions.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. STAMP:

10 Q. Could I just make one aspect of your testimony clear, when, if you

11 recall the month in 1993, did your brigade receive 81-millimetre mortars?

12 A. I can't say precisely, but in late 1993, we received one mortar of

13 81 millimetres calibre. It is a subcalibre. And this is what we used to

14 train people. We didn't have shells for it. We had to adjust the shells

15 for it in order to use them, and that was the problem with that weapon.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues]... that 81 millimetre mortar?

17 A. No.

18 Q. When did you first receive mortars that you could use?

19 A. While preparing for assault operations in --

20 Q. When?

21 A. This is 1994. We received mortars which we were preparing for

22 those combat activities. And we transferred them to the area of

23 responsibility that we had.

24 Q. Which month, if you can remember, and which year?

25 A. 1994, in the spring. In the spring of 1994.

Page 12356

1 Q. Thank you.

2 You said in cross-examination that there were police units located

3 in a building behind a school, and you showed us an area to the east of

4 the positions that you controlled. Do you recall that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. These police units, can you tell us briefly, what was their

7 function or role?

8 A. They were located in Dobrinja. We were not very well armed. We

9 didn't have enough people so they had their own area of responsibility.

10 They had their own command and they held that area of responsibility. The

11 part of the territory that they controlled was an area that could be used

12 for the passage of tanks and they also had anti-armour weapons. So this

13 is why they were responsible for that area.

14 Q. Were they armed with infantry weapons, like rifles as well?

15 A. They only had infantry weapons.

16 Q. You also said that there was no sniper nest or you were not aware

17 of a sniper nest in the school in Dobrinja. Could you tell us what do you

18 mean or what -- when you speak of a "sniper," what are you speaking of

19 when you respond to these questions? What do you mean when you were using

20 the word, "sniper"?

21 A. Could you please clarify a little bit what you are asking.

22 Q. You answered quite a few questions about whether there were or

23 were not snipers or sniper nests at a school on the eastern frontier of

24 your area of responsibility. I just want to know, what do you mean when

25 you use or you answer a question to the expression or word, "sniper"?

Page 12357

1 What do you mean by "sniper"?

2 A. For me, a sniper is a trained, educated person with special

3 weapons. It is a special kind of person that can carry out that kind of a

4 dirty job.

5 Q. Were the police units or your units in that area trained in that

6 way?

7 A. The units of the 5th Motorised were not trained in that way.

8 These were people who received only superficial training. They were just

9 people -- normal, regular people.

10 Q. You were shown a document --

11 MR. STAMP: If I may have a moment.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. STAMP:

14 Q. You were shown a document written by one Stjepan Siber and you

15 said he was a part of the headquarters of the army. Do you know what

16 ethnicity he was? From which ethnic group he was from?

17 A. He was a Croat.

18 Q. It was suggested to you, when you were shown a passage from that

19 document that the 5th Dobrinja Brigade were being accused of shooting. I

20 would like you to have a look at that document, with the leave of the

21 Court.

22 MR. STAMP: It is document D164.

23 Q. Can you look at that document in your own language and tell me if

24 there is any part, particularly that part of it dealing with the 15th of

25 July 1992, from page 107 and page 108, can you tell us if it says in that

Page 12358

1 entry anything about a complaint being made about persons or any UNPROFOR

2 soldier who was shot from Dobrinja -- I beg your pardon, was shot from

3 areas controlled by the 5th Motorised Brigade? Do you see that there?

4 Could you have a look at it and let me know.

5 A. No, there isn't.

6 Q. This document -- or the date referred to is the 15th of July,

7 which is 9 or 10 days after the official formation of the 5th Motorised

8 Brigade. On or around the 15th of July, 1992, was the 5th Motorised

9 Brigade in full control of all the armed forces in the Dobrinja area?

10 A. On the 15th of July, I stated yesterday that we needed two months

11 in order to complete the establishment of the brigade. We had problems in

12 digging trenches, callup, looking for locations, food supplies, all of

13 those things which were necessary for it to be able to exist. But I would

14 also like to say that at that point we did not control the entire area of

15 the Dobrinja. And it was possible from three or four places in Dobrinja

16 that we did not control, to have sniper fire come from those areas and

17 accuse us of doing it because we had Dobrinja III and Dobrinja IV, which

18 had a view of Dobrinja I and Dobrinja II, and they were covering the

19 Airport Settlement as well as the area around the airport.

20 Q. Could you have a look at document 163.

21 MR. STAMP: With the leave of the Court, can he be handed document

22 163.

23 Q. Quickly, in respect to my last question, nine days after the

24 brigade was officially organised, that is the 15th of July 1992, did you

25 have full control of all the Bosnian forces in Dobrinja at that time? It

Page 12359

1 would be helpful if you could tell me.

2 A. No, no.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 Have a look at document 163. You were asked or it was suggested

5 to you in respect to that document that there was fire coming from your

6 area of control. Could you look at that document and tell me whether or

7 not it states or suggests any allegation that fire was coming from any

8 area controlled by the 5th Motorised Brigade in Dobrinja?

9 A. As far as I know, no. As far as I can see, no.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 Have you ever been charged with a criminal offence?

12 A. Never.

13 MR. STAMP: That is the cross-examination, Mr. President. There

14 is one area --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Re-examination, I take it.

16 MR. STAMP: I beg your pardon. Re-examination. There is one area

17 which does not arise directly from the cross-examination, with perhaps the

18 leave of the Court I could ask the leave of the Court to clarify, if I

19 could.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: We are strict on the Defence and we are also strict,

22 it would be of vital importance, whether it is just one of the issues you

23 have forgotten, then there will be no opportunity to --

24 MR. STAMP: I think if we had clear answers on something which the

25 answer is possibly there but may require an inference, if the witness

Page 12360

1 could give us a clear answer to the question I am asking, it could be of

2 some assistance to the Court.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Would that be a question that has been put to him at

4 an earlier occasion --

5 MR. STAMP: From my review of the records.

6 JUDGE ORIE: If it is not really vital --

7 MR. STAMP: It is vital.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You may put the question to the witness. We will

9 then decide whether it is vital, after we have heard Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

10 and we will then see whether the witness can answer the question.

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

13 what is the question the Prosecution would like to ask, but perhaps they

14 could state it clearly so that we can follow them for once and then

15 perhaps the witness could leave the courtroom, the Prosecution could tell

16 us their point of view, and then maybe we can then take the position.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it is better done not in the presence of the

18 witness. Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

19 courtroom just for a very short moment.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Which question would it be, Mr. Stamp?

22 MR. STAMP: The witness said yesterday that the area on the map

23 which he drew between the entrance of the tunnel and the buildings in

24 Dobrinja that is a trench.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 12361

1 MR. STAMP: He said that on the 12th of July, 1993, there was just

2 a meadow there. I just wish to clarify with him, when exactly that

3 communication trench between the entrance of the tunnel and the buildings

4 were built.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: You may put that question to the witness, Mr. Stamp.

7 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

9 Therefore, the consequence being is that if there is need, we could

10 re-intervene?

11 JUDGE ORIE: I can tell you why, if you want the reason. That

12 question was on my list of questions as well. So it is for that extent it

13 is just a matter of who puts the question to the witness.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But, Mr. President, if this

15 question had been on His Honour's list, after you would have asked it,

16 then I would have been able to intervene, following the rule --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if a new element comes up, then,

18 of course it always has been allowed the Defence. That goes even without

19 saying. Please escort the witness into the courtroom.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

22 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. Could he be shown Exhibit

23 P3732. And could it be put on the ELMO so we can see.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The ELMO is not of great assistance at this very

25 moment. Yes, now it is.

Page 12362

1 MR. STAMP:

2 Q. I would like you to look at and point to the part of the red line

3 where you said there was a communication trench between the buildings of

4 the Dobrinja and the entrance to the tunnel.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Can you tell us when that communication trench was constructed?

7 A. Right after the tunnel was opened. That's when the communication

8 trench was started from the house next to the tunnel because it turned out

9 that people going into that building were creating a crowd and it was

10 possible to see them from Gavrica Brdo, so then for the sake of security,

11 a trench was dug from that house up to the entrance of the tunnel here, so

12 that people would be safer. And they were less noticeable from the

13 Gavrica hill, if they use the trench.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 You said "right after the tunnel was opened." Is it possible for

16 you to be a little bit more precise. Can you tell us what do you mean by

17 "right after". How soon after? I understand you may have to

18 approximate.

19 A. The work on the tunnel was continuous, so from the 30th of July,

20 in that period up until September, that's when that was carried out.

21 Because --

22 Q. What I am asking you to do you said the construction of this

23 trench began right after the 30th of July. What do you mean by "right

24 after"? How long after the 30th of July did you begin to dig that or

25 construct that trench?

Page 12363

1 A. It started about 10 days after the 30th of July. I can't be sure

2 exactly, but that is my estimate.

3 Q. Before --

4 MR. STAMP: You may take that away.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You said you had one question. You asked for one

6 clarification, yes?

7 MR. STAMP: Yes, nothing further.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. First of

10 all, I think that we should clarify for the transcript on this issue, and

11 I would like to re-intervene with your leave, of course.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, first, ask whether the Judges have any

13 questions, so that you can add all the questions at one time.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to

16 you.

17 Questioned by the Court

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I need the help of Mr. Usher with the Exhibit

19 3732 the map.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please assist.

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes, please put that on the ELMO.

22 I think that you marked the spots of the various shelling

23 incidents except one which is the incident of the 22nd of January 1994 in

24 Alipasino Polje. May I take it that Alipasino Polje is not shown on this

25 map?

Page 12364

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Is not?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I have a question on that. The first one is

5 that whether you went to Alipasino Polje during the war, let's say, until

6 September 1994?

7 A. I was just passing through.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: But you went there, you passed through

9 Alipasino Polje?

10 A. Yes I was passing through to the city.

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The second question is: How far is Alipasino

12 Polje from Dobrinja? Let's say from the building of the brigade

13 headquarters, as the crow flies?

14 A. Between 2 and 3.000 metres.

15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: All right. That is enough. Can we see in

16 this map the Orthodox church?

17 A. You can't see the Orthodox church on this map.

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The Faculty of Theology?

19 A. I think that you can't see that either.

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No more questions.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Since Judge El Mahdi has some more questions for you

22 and I have some more questions for you as well, perhaps we first take the

23 break. We will adjourn until 20 minutes past 4.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.

Page 12365

1 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 [Interpretation] I would like to ask you if you can inform me

4 about the scale of the map which is in front of you, approximately, if you

5 know?

6 A. I wouldn't be able to answer. Perhaps 1 to 1.000, something like

7 that, I don't know,.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Approximately.

9 A. 1 to 10.000.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I believe that you

11 know, according to your military experience that the field of firing of a

12 rifle, of a gun which was used by the former JNA for the snipers, do you

13 know the range, the firing range of a rifle, of a sniping rifle?

14 A. From 1500 to 1800 metres.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So it is not possible that that

16 would go over one kilometre, 1.8 kilometres, in your opinion, it wouldn't

17 go over that?

18 A. I really don't know.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 You indicated on the map the headquarters of the brigade called

21 the Dobrinja Brigade and you said that the headquarters of the brigade was

22 located in a building which had eight floors. Did I understand you

23 correctly? Is that true? Is that how I should have understood it?

24 A. Yes. Six or eight floors. I cannot be absolutely certain, but it

25 was a higher building.

Page 12366

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but if I understand you

2 correctly, your headquarters was located on the first floor and it was

3 from the second floor, until the sixth or the eighth floor were these

4 floors occupied by civilians, did civilians live on the second to the

5 eighth floor?

6 A. The command was not on the first floor. It was in the cellar of

7 that building, in the basement of that building. And it used business

8 premises above the basement of that building.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. So one could say that the

10 command was in the basement but that there were soldiers who were on the

11 first or on the second floor, and apart from that, the other floors were

12 civilians located on other floors?

13 A. On the first and second floor, there were no military -- there

14 were no troops there. If the apartments were not destroyed vertically,

15 then civilians did inhabit those apartment.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But there were civilians living

17 there during the period of -- from 1992 to 1994, there were civilians

18 living there?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And is this also valid for other

21 headquarters of battalions, of battalions of the brigade?

22 A. Yes. Battalion commands were located in those buildings because

23 we did not have any other choice. These were commands which were

24 practically unarmed in those parts of buildings. There were no military

25 facilities there so that we could locate our command somewhere where there

Page 12367

1 would be no civilians living there. The only possible possibility that we

2 had for the armed formations for the Dobrinja Brigade to locate them for

3 the companies and the platoons, we kept them in the area of

4 responsibility, in the trenches and the buildings that had been abandoned.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You said, and I am

6 quoting: [In English] "Forming the line of defence."

7 [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly, these were

8 buildings that were destroyed or semi-destroyed and you were using them as

9 means of defence. Did I understand you correctly? Is this what you said?

10 A. These were destroyed and abandoned buildings. There were no

11 civilians living there. These were destroyed and abandoned buildings.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But before they were destroyed,

13 they had been inhabited by civilians, these had been civilian buildings,

14 residential buildings where civilians had lived.

15 Did the headquarters change or move during the period of the

16 conflict, the location, the location of the headquarters, did they change?

17 A. Battalion commands, no. Command of brigades changed three or four

18 times. They moved to the neighbouring building and then they moved back,

19 changed location within the building.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Was this in order to avoid the

21 firing from the opposing side? This was for military purposes that they

22 changed?

23 A. I wouldn't say for military purposes. For security purposes.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] For security purposes. You mean

25 for military security. Could you perhaps clarify? This is so that they

Page 12368

1 would not be targeted by the opposing side?

2 A. I think this was in the way that the change of the location would

3 protect. What we were worried about that if we stayed in the location too

4 long, that this information would reach the opposing side about where we

5 were and then somebody from the command would get killed, which is the

6 reason why we changed the location.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

8 In relation to the tunnel, you said that the tunnel was

9 operational from the end of July 1992. And when did the work on the

10 tunnel begin?

11 A. End of July 1993.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, 1993.

13 A. As far as I can remember, it was March 1993 that the work on the

14 tunnel had begun.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you said that people would

16 then usually get together or were grouped in a building which was in front

17 of the trenches. The workers, you explained it well, but there were

18 soldiers who took part in the construction work of the tunnel. So were

19 there also civilians who took part in this work?

20 A. No.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] As a soldier, one would imagine

22 that women had also taken part in military work. Were there also women

23 who were taking part in the construction work?

24 A. Among the people from our brigade, there was not a single woman

25 who had taken part in the construction of the tunnel. Because the whole

Page 12369

1 procedure of digging the tunnel had been dealt with by logistics of the

2 1st Corps and we had to provide people to dig every seven days, and people

3 went in shifts in order to dig the tunnel.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And during the work, was this

5 location targeted by the opposing side? You said that the opposing side

6 was not aware of the entrance to the tunnel. Is that true, in your

7 opinion?

8 A. During the work and the digging, there was no particularly heavy

9 firing on our side of the location where the tunnel had been -- the

10 digging had been ongoing. So there were shells landing of equal

11 intensity. It wasn't -- after the tunnel had been dug, the second part of

12 the tunnel was more intensely belt, it was probably that the Sarajevo

13 Romanija Corps had seen and then they started to shell more intensely, our

14 side.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but if I understood you

16 correctly, they did not know exactly where the entrance to the tunnel was.

17 A. That's my personal feeling. I think they did not know where the

18 entrance to the tunnel was. And on these locations when the tunnel was

19 fully operational, there were occasionally 2 or 3.000 people who couldn't

20 all fit into the surrounding building that were right close in the

21 vicinity of the tunnel.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And these people, where were

23 they? Where was their accommodation? You said that they were not in the

24 nearby buildings. Were they in the buildings near, but were they in the

25 area of the -- near the area of the entrance to the tunnel?

Page 12370

1 A. We tried to move these people who were waiting to go into the

2 tunnel, to move them because of the shelling, but there were so many

3 people at times that we couldn't move them and they still waited in front

4 of the tunnel and near the building which was near to the entrance to the

5 tunnel.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzic, I have a few questions for you as well.

8 You told us that at the beginning of the conflict quite number of

9 people were pressed to leave Dobrinja, but that many had remained there.

10 Has it ever been considered to evacuate further parts of the population?

11 A. Any movement represented a danger for us, any movement of the

12 population in Dobrinja. We had plans in the event of a breakthrough of

13 the lines, in case the enemy troops entered Dobrinja, then we would, with

14 the assistance of the civil protection, enable the population to leave

15 Dobrinja. But in any case, any movement of our population presented a

16 danger for the survival of Dobrinja because if a man that you had, if you

17 allowed his family to leave, then he wasn't much more use to you any

18 longer.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you explain that last part of your answer?

20 A. We were afraid that if we evacuated, for no reason, if we

21 evacuated the people to the city without any reason, then very quickly the

22 soldiers whose families were evacuated would leave Dobrinja. Because the

23 psychological pressure of how the families are, how they were living, how

24 they were getting on, would have an effect on those people, and then it

25 would perhaps make it easier for them or make it possible for them to go,

Page 12371

1 to leave the brigade and go to be with their families, if something like

2 this happened.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever consider that the presence of

4 civilians in Dobrinja perhaps would prevent a, I would say, an attack that

5 would destroy the whole area, and therefore the presence of civilians

6 would, to that extent, partially protect Dobrinja?

7 A. No.

8 JUDGE ORIE: My next question is: It was not quite clear to me

9 what your answer was on the question of the intensity of the shelling of

10 the buildings where the headquarters were located. Was that similar to

11 whatever other buildings or did you receive more fire at the buildings

12 where your headquarters were located, either a battalion or the brigade

13 headquarter?

14 A. Not more or less than the rest of Dobrinja. So, the battalion

15 commands and the brigade commands were not exposed to more intense

16 shelling than the other parts of Dobrinja.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Have you ever considered to evacuate the civilians

18 from the buildings where the headquarters were located, so not evacuation

19 on a large scale, but just from the buildings where the headquarters were

20 located in the "sous-sol," as they say it in French.

21 A. Two buildings where the commands were situated, the command of the

22 1st Battalion and the brigade command there was a very large atomic

23 shelter. So we would bring the civilians from -- in from the edges of

24 Dobrinja where they were living to shield them from artillery fire or from

25 combat. So we tried to protect them from that. And we tried to bring

Page 12372

1 them into the central parts of Dobrinja. And then after a while, we

2 didn't have any more maneuvering space because about 3.000 apartments

3 were completely demolished in Dobrinja and another 2000 which would

4 not -- which were not habitable. So the zone where we were in, it was

5 very difficult. It wasn't of much use for the civilians. The

6 concentration of people was highest in the central parts of the

7 settlement, while the buildings in the central part of the settlement are

8 very large buildings with four or five entrances, with six, seven, or

9 eight floors, with three to four apartments per floor, so one staircase

10 from top to bottom would have 24 apartments.

11 So, if in that building, one vertical line was destroyed, then you

12 had to find other 24 apartments somewhere else or put two or more families

13 in one apartment. So this was physically impossible because there simply

14 wasn't enough space.

15 JUDGE ORIE: My last question is: Looking at the map and

16 listening to your answer as far as the scale of this map, approximately,

17 is concerned, would it be correct to say that the distance from the

18 nearest building to the entrance of the tunnel would be approximately 150

19 metres or?

20 A. About that much.

21 JUDGE ORIE: About 150 metres?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 12373

1 First of all, I have two observations to make. The first one is that I

2 have the impression, I have to say it now, that one of the questions of

3 His Honour Mr. El Mahdi was not reported in the transcript and this is

4 38.39. I believe that the witness did answer, but this did not come out

5 into the transcript. I don't know whether this is correct. Perhaps we

6 can have a look at it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You said 38.39. You are referring to pages, I take

8 it.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Pages 38, line 8, line 9. [Interpretation]

10 Eight and nine. We can see that two questions of His Honour Mr. El Mahdi

11 come after one another.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree that two questions come after each other.

13 I have -- it is not in my recollection whether there was any answer --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness had said yes to

15 the first of the questions. And I apologise. I did not want to interrupt

16 His Honour, Judge El Mahdi, but I think that it would be good to intervene

17 now.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is not in my recollection any more. So we

19 will have to check that at the -- at the audio tape, I think.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could ask the witness. A question has

22 been put to you by Judge El Mahdi saying that "but before they were

23 destroyed," and he was talking about buildings, destroyed and abandoned

24 buildings, "they had been inhabited by civilians, these had been civilian

25 buildings, residential buildings where civilians had lived."

Page 12374

1 You answered in the affirmative?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That is then clear for the transcript.

4 Please proceed, Mr. President.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just have three questions to

6 ask. Thank you. But before that, Mr. President, it would be good to

7 consider that after the witness can tell us what happened to the famous

8 line between the trench and the tunnel on the screen, on the ELMO, this

9 was not reported in the transcript. It would be good if we can explain it

10 for the transcript with the help of the usher. If it can be put again on

11 the ELMO, which is already the case. Thank you. And clarify the

12 situation.

13 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, in relation to the tunnel line, I can

15 see two points on this map, one which corresponds to a red circle and the

16 other one which corresponds to a red dot. Is it true that the red dot

17 corresponds to the entrance of the tunnel which was dug under a house, yes

18 or no, and perhaps if you can indicate the dot on the map so that we can

19 all have it clear.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. No, that is not what I mean. I meant the other dot, further up.

22 A. [Indicates]

23 Q. Yes, that one.

24 A. This is the communication road Kasindolska Street-Kula. Below the

25 road or the communication, there was a small tunnel which was dug between

Page 12375

1 the front and the back trench.

2 Q. Witness, you said that you had started the work in digging under a

3 house. Is that the house that we can see to the right of the red dot?

4 A. That is the house.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 Witness --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to prevent whatever confusion. When

8 the witness --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- Answered yes, he pointed at the red circle, not at

11 the red dot. Where I had the impression that when you were talking about

12 "under a house" that you are rather referring to the red dot, than to the

13 red circle.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I saw him

15 indicate the red dot. Perhaps he could be given a different pointer.

16 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

17 JUDGE ORIE: He now again points to the small circle and that is

18 what I saw him doing before.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise.

22 Q. Witness, you said that you started the work under a house. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Witness, could you please indicate where is the house under which

Page 12376

1 you had started the work?

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. Witness, where do you see a sign of a house, symbol for a house on

4 this map?

5 A. I don't see houses around here. This was a settlement. This was

6 a settlement here.

7 Q. Witness, would you agree with me if I said that around the red

8 circle there are no houses?

9 A. What do you mean, there are no houses? The tunnel -- we started to

10 dig under a house. You can still see that house today.

11 Q. Very well.

12 So I will go on with other questions. Witness, could you tell us

13 when did you start the work on the trenches, not necessarily the tunnel,

14 but the trenches?

15 A. On which trenches do you mean?

16 Q. We are talking about the trenches linking supposedly the entrance

17 to the tunnel and Dobrinja.

18 A. I said a moment ago, about 10 days after the opening.

19 Q. Very well.

20 You said that 2 to 3.000 people would gather near the tunnel.

21 Where would they gather, could you please indicate for us on the map,

22 please?

23 A. Since this building where there was the definitive entrance to the

24 tunnel, this building which was completely destroyed, and nobody lived

25 there, from the buildings below in the garages of these houses, people

Page 12377

1 would shelter and wait those people who waited and those who couldn't find

2 any accommodation, they were waiting outside, near the tunnel, in the area

3 near the tunnel.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, Mr.

5 President, the witness indicated two buildings which were to the north of

6 the vertical red line.

7 Q. Witness, do you know if it was necessary to have an authorisation

8 for the civilians who were going to use the tunnel?

9 A. Every civilian had to have permission. If they were able-bodied

10 or not, they had to have permission from the Ministry of Defence, or if

11 they were unable to do military service, to have a certificate and to have

12 a permission, if they are civilians, from the Ministry of the Interior and

13 also a permission to go through the tunnel. And this was used by the

14 civilian authorities, to these people who were not members of the armed

15 forces.

16 Q. Would you agree with me to consider that the army was controlling

17 the flux of civilians, the flow of civilians, yes or no?

18 A. Yes. The flowing of population was controlled by the command of

19 the corps or people from the corps.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 Witness, the last question, you said, that's what I understood, on

22 page 42 line 18, page 43 that the headquarters of the brigade were located

23 in the basement, that is, in nuclear shelters of these buildings. Did I

24 understand you correctly?

25 A. No.

Page 12378

1 Q. Thank you.

2 The very last thing, sir: If I tell you that we have here a

3 statement stating, and I am referring to P3726.1, a high representative of

4 the UN forces saying that this tunnel had been opened the end of March,

5 perhaps, beginning of April, 1993 --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is not related to one of the

7 questions. We have talked about digging trenches to the entrance of the

8 tunnel. We have during the examination-in-chief and cross-examination,

9 you had ample opportunity -- at the opening of the tunnel and this is

10 beyond the scope of what you are allowed to ask to the witness at this

11 very moment.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzic -- yes, Mr. Stamp

14 MR. STAMP: There was just one question I had from something

15 arising.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Question from what?

17 MR. STAMP: From the Bench.

18 Further re-examination by Mr. Stamp:

19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, were civilians population in Dobrinja compelled by

20 force to remain in Dobrinja?

21 A. Never.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzic, this -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am saying

24 this before the witness for courtesy. We said that we did not have time

25 to look at the last two documents that were communicated -- that were

Page 12379

1 handed over by the Prosecution yesterday or the day before. We were not

2 able to look at it until now, so we are stating this with the reservation,

3 the Defence is stating that if we discover things in these documents, can

4 we be able to recall this witness? This is not certain, this is a

5 reserve.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand you ask the right to reserve to ask

7 to recall the witness if there is anything new in the documents that you

8 just referred to. Yes.

9 Mr. Hadzic, this concludes your testimony in this court. Thank

10 you very much for having come to The Hague. A lot of questions were put

11 to you both by the parties and by the Judges. You answered them and I

12 would like to thank you for coming and answering the questions and I wish

13 you a safe trip home again.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Unless there is a specific reason -- yes?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. If it is

19 the case and the Defence recalls this witness, it would be good that he

20 should be reminded that he should not speak to anyone about this. It

21 could be within a week. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether this could be within a

23 week and it is at this moment rather hypothetical.

24 Mr. Hadzic, the Defence has reserved the right to ask whether --

25 to ask the Bench to have you recalled for reasons not yet known at this

Page 12380

1 moment. That would mean that you should not talk with anyone about your

2 testimony at least not during the first week to come, since there is still

3 a chance -- I am not saying that there is a probability, but it is a big

4 chance or a small chance that you would be recalled. In the event if that

5 would happen, then we would rather see you here without you having

6 discussed your testimony with anyone.

7 You understood that? Yes. Then again, thank you, and Mr. Usher,

8 could you please escort Mr. Hadzic out of the courtroom.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, is the Prosecution ready to call its next

13 witness?

14 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President. But I was wondering if --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we first have to deal with the documents. You

16 are perfectly right. Since it is quite a number of documents, I should

17 not have forgotten it.

18 Madam Registrar could you please guide us through the documents.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3729, CD-rom; Exhibit --

20 MR. STAMP: I think you have the wrong disk.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel.

22 MR. STAMP: We might have the wrong disk. I think we are doing

23 the list for Ewa Tabeau now.

24 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think, as a matter of fact, that this is the

25 CD-rom that still waits to be tendered with the chart of the witness

Page 12381

1 Philipps. Is that true, Madam Registrar? Or is it the data of -- what do

2 we find on the CD-rom?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3732, map marked by witness --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In relation to the map, and

7 following a question that your Chamber asked, I was wondering whether we

8 could perhaps, before the map is admitted, we would like to ask the

9 Prosecution to give us the exact scales. I think that would help us to

10 establish the right distances. I hope that the Prosecution is aware of

11 the scale.

12 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, I think this is something that all the

13 parties could agree upon. The maps are maps from, I think, a particular

14 one known as 7 Nima and for some purposes they are expanded, they are

15 reduced. My understanding is an --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me be short. We have approximately six or seven

17 maps with an exact scale. We have asked for it a several times. If you

18 take a centimetre, and we all know how large this is, it is easy for

19 everyone to establish the scale without any mistake and do whatever

20 calculations you will have to do. I mean, discussing at length the scale

21 of every single map while we can easily reconstruct it --

22 MR. STAMP: If I may, with respect to the Exhibit, at the bottom

23 of the Exhibit, the line that goes across, just above the names Hogan and

24 Zaimovic, the lines are marked in areas of 100 metres between each square

25 is a kilometre. I beg your pardon -- yes, each square is a kilometre and

Page 12382

1 it is subdivided along the line in 100 metres. Regardless of how the maps

2 are enlarged or reduced, that can assist in determining distances.

3 JUDGE ORIE: If that would be of guidance then, Madam Registrar.

4 So we don't need a specific scale, but we do know what the scale is,

5 whether enlarged or not.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D158, letter dated 23/01/1994, in B/C/S;

7 D158.1, English translation; D159, letter dated 08/10/1992 in B/C/S;

8 D159.1, English translation; D160, order dated 01/11/1992 by Ismet Hadzic,

9 in B/C/S; D160.1 English translation; D161, order dated 01/11/1992 from

10 Ismet Hadzic in B/C/S; D161.1, English translation; D162, intelligence

11 report dated 01 October 1993 in B/C/S; D162.1, English translation,

12 partial translation; D163, letter dated 5 December 1993 by Rasim Delic, in

13 B/C/S; D163.1, English translation; D164, document in B/C/S, war diary

14 1993; D164.1, partial English translation; D165, letter dated 07 December

15 1993, problems of leadership and commanding in 5th Motorised Brigade for

16 1st Corps command; D165.1, English translation.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18 Mr. Stamp, may I then -- your next witness will be?

19 MR. STAMP: We would respectfully object to the reception into

20 evidence of D164.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 Yes, that is part of the book of Stjepan Siber, as far as I

23 understand, yes.

24 MR. STAMP: And I can't recall the number of a statement that the

25 witness had been shown or perhaps it was not tendered. In respect to

Page 12383

1 D164, Mr. President, Your Honours, it is the Prosecution submission that a

2 book by someone else is not probative, if the witness has not in any way

3 accepted what it is saying. Neither is the statement by that person. It

4 does not assist in the finding or resolving any of the issues that the

5 Court is faced with.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I am

8 surprised. I thought that we spoke at length before this Chamber about a

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]. What is interesting, is

13 that the commander of this witness declared certain things and what is

14 more interesting, Mr. President, is that the communication between Mr.

15 Stjepan Siber and this person responsible for the Dobrinja Brigade was not

16 functioning. So this is a very important piece of evidence for the

17 Defence in order to demonstrate that the chain of command at the very same

18 time when we thought that they were perfectly established, very frequently

19 were not functioning, were not operational. And if this was not in

20 operation for the army of Sarajevo which has now been demonstrated it can

21 also happen that it wasn't operational, it wasn't working for the VRS

22 Army. Thank you very much.

23 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, if I may, perhaps, I don't know if we

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12384

1 [redacted].

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that should be redacted.

3 MR. STAMP: And the second thing really is that the situation

4 there was that the witness accepted and adopted the contents of the book.

5 Here the witness says he doesn't know about what is said in the book.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained for two reasons: First of

8 all, the comparison with another book that has been quoted is not a reason

9 to accept this part of this book for the reason that that book reflected

10 something the witness testified about, where in this case, the witness

11 says that he doesn't know anything about it.

12 The second reason is that the Defence makes the mistake that if

13 this witness does not confirm what is in the book, that the line of

14 command is not functioning well, that suggests that what is in the book is

15 true. Of course, it may be true. The Chamber doesn't know. But if the

16 Defence takes the position that it is true what is in this book, then the

17 Prosecution should have an opportunity to test the reliability of the

18 person that expressed his views in this book.

19 Therefore, the objection is sustained and D164 will not be

20 admitted into evidence.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just to make

22 sure that things are clear, the Defence believes, although it takes note

23 of your position --

24 JUDGE ORIE: It is not a position, it is a decision,

25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Yes.

Page 12385

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. Of your

2 decision. The Defence however believes and we have to say it, that our

3 rights have been offended on the level of evidence. We need to say this

4 at this very moment. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 Mr. Stamp.

7 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Your next witness would be?

9 MR. STAMP: Dr. Kovacs.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Kovacs. Recall of Dr. Kovacs. Before we start

11 with the examination of Dr. Kovacs, I will tell you to what limits the

12 examination of Dr. Kovacs may go. First, the Prosecution will have an

13 opportunity to, if they want to, to examine Dr. Kovacs on, I would say,

14 the history of his statement, if I may express it that way. I think

15 everyone knows what I mean. So if there is any need to do that, the

16 Prosecution may first do so.

17 If necessary, the Chamber will put additional questions in this

18 respect. Then the Defence is allowed to cross-examine the witness on

19 every aspect that was not known to the parties at the conclusion of the

20 previous examination of Dr. Kovacs. So that could include part of what I

21 will call "the history" and certainly would include the last pages that

22 have been added, that were in the last version of the report we received

23 and that were not in the previous report that was distributed.

24 So that is the order of the examination of Dr. Kovacs. Mr. Usher,

25 could you please -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 12386

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, before

2 Mr. Kovacs enters the witness box, the Defence would like to underscore

3 that the Defence will not examine this witness, except that they were

4 forced to do this, and I have to explain, that this document was never

5 submitted to the Defence with the respect of the deadlines, with the

6 respect of a rule 94 and others. So the examination of this witness is

7 happening under these circumstances. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that I would rather not talk about

9 being "forced," but at least I can imagine that the Defence is not quite

10 happy with the situation it is in and I think that the Chamber has already

11 expressed that it was not very happy with what happened in respect of

12 Dr. Kovacs's report.

13 On the other hand, the Chamber has carefully looked at the

14 contents, especially of the added or at least to the last pages of the

15 final report of the Dr. Kovacs and is of the opinion that the contents is

16 such that the Defence should be able to cross-examine the witness on these

17 parts of the report. But I -- the Chamber has taken notes of the

18 observation the Defence just made.

19 Would you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Kovacs, can you hear me in a language, even if it

23 is with the help of the interpreter, in a language you understand?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Since it has been quite some time, I would rather ask

Page 12387

1 you to make again the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your

2 previous testimony. So the text of that solemn declaration will be handed

3 out to you now by the usher. May I invite you to make that solemn

4 declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. I solemnly declare that

6 I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please be seated. May I ask you to remain

8 standing. I took the wrong order because I would have had to ask you to

9 make a solemn declaration first. Therefore, I invite you to make a solemn

10 declaration as an interpreter and would you -- may I invite you to make

11 that solemn declaration.

12 THE INTERPRETER: I solemnly declare that I will interpret

13 faithfully and impartially and with full respect for the duty of the

14 confidentiality.

15 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to confirm that the interpretation

16 that you have done until now, has been done in a similar spirit?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I would like to confirm that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

19 Mr. Stamp.

20 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. With your leave, Mr.

21 President, could the witness be handed document Exhibit P3725 and P37251.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the record, may I ask the interpreter

24 whether she is Maria Bolgar?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I am, sir.

Page 12388

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

2 MR. STAMP: And also, Mr. President, he has been shown already

3 P3725A.1 and P3725A. I will ask for P3725. Can he also be shown that

4 one.

5 THE REGISTRAR: I have P3725A.2.

6 MR. STAMP: No. The original document which was received in

7 evidence on the previous occasion.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 MR. STAMP: I believe they're recalling a copy, in the meantime,

11 may I ask the Doctor some questions until one is located?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes you may.

13 WITNESS: VILMOS KOVACS [Recalled]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

16 Q. Dr. Kovacs, you had been asked to prepare a report in respect of

17 artillery matters for the purposes of this case, had you not?

18 A. Yes, Your Honour.

19 Q. And did you prepare a draft report sometime in February of this

20 year?

21 A. Yes, correct. We call that "working copy."

22 Q. And subsequent to that, in April of this year, did you prepare a

23 final copy of that report, of your report?

24 A. Yes, correct.

25 Q. Did you prepare it in the Hungarian language?

Page 12389

1 A. Yes, of course. Both were prepared in the Hungarian language.

2 Q. The final one which you prepared, did you fax a copy of that to

3 the relevant officials of the OTP?

4 A. Correct.

5 MR. STAMP: With the assistance of Mr. Usher, could he be shown

6 P3725A. It is with him now. He has it already. Could you indicate to

7 him which one is P3725, please.

8 Q. Could you have a look at that document, and tell us if this is the

9 report you prepared in your own language?

10 A. Yes, this is the one I prepared.

11 Q. And on the last page of it, it is dated the 30th of April, 2002?

12 A. Yes, correct.

13 Q. And you have signed it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you now have a look at the document marked P3725A.1.

16 Could you look at page 30 of that document.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And line 22 from the top of that page, could you find that line,

19 please. Do you see a sentence there beginning: "I have given the

20 answers"?

21 A. Yes, correct. I see the sentence.

22 Q. Could you peruse from that sentence to the end of the document,

23 approximately one to two pages? Could you look at, check and read from

24 that sentence to the end of the document and tell us if that is a

25 translation into English of the Hungarian text of the document, of the

Page 12390

1 30th of April 2002.

2 A. I could do that, if I see it. Close to two pages, my knowledge of

3 the English language does not enable me to go through it very quickly. I

4 would need to put the two text beside each other.

5 Q. You may compare the two texts.

6 A. Yes, of course.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if the witness

9 says that he is not, due to his limited knowledge of the English language,

10 if he is saying that he cannot do it, perhaps it would be good to ask him

11 to read his report in his original language and then we may come closer to

12 the truth.

13 MR. STAMP: It could be done that way too. But he did say --

14 JUDGE ORIE: The witness did not say that he could not do it --

15 MR. STAMP: Very quickly.

16 JUDGE ORIE: It is just a matter of time. Perhaps, Mr. Stamp, we

17 could do that during the break, although, I am aware that it is not nice

18 for the witness to read the two documents, but to apply the same procedure

19 as we did before, that in the presence of the Registrar, that the witness

20 gets the time or in the presence of one of the legal officers, that the

21 witness gets the time to compare whether his original report and the

22 English translation, whether that is there in both the documents. And the

23 parties of course may remain for the time the witness would need for that

24 in the courtroom so that they can see that he is not consulting

25 everyone -- anyone.

Page 12391

1 If we do it this way we are sure that he takes the time he needs

2 and that we will have a reliable answer to your last question.

3 Dr. Kovacs, may I ask you to read this part of the document. You

4 say you couldn't do it quickly. Just take your time. I would like to ask

5 you to remain in this courtroom so that everyone can see that you are

6 consulting no one while performing this task. When you are ready, please

7 tell the Officer of the Court that is present, that you are ready. If

8 there is any time left, of course, there is a break for you as well. And

9 during the break, you are supposed not to speak with anyone about your

10 testimony.

11 MR. STAMP: May I make one inquiry?

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: This would not -- you are not supposed to talk with

14 the interpreter about your testimony, but if you would need the assistance

15 of the interpreter for the comparison, you can ask her assistance.

16 MR. STAMP: That was my request.

17 JUDGE ORIE: That was your request.

18 We will then adjourn until 6.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 6.12 p.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Kovacs, I feel sorry for you that we had a break

22 and you had not.

23 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the

25 transcript, it would be good to say that we have our expert who is sitting

Page 12392

1 with us.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Welcome in the courtroom.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

4 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I should indicate one thing to you first.

6 The Chamber decided that since document P3725 was filed it would not have

7 to be admitted into evidence and not to be tendered anymore. Therefore,

8 the Registrar has retrieved the filed copy, so if you would use it, it is

9 not an exhibit, but it is a filed report.

10 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President. I perhaps would not use it,

11 but I thought it should be available here.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It is there if you need it.

13 MR. STAMP:

14 Q. Dr. Kovacs, having had an opportunity to peruse the translation

15 from where I showed you, that is, line 22 down from the top of page 30 to

16 the end of the document, in English.

17 A. Yes, I did examine the section you are referring to.

18 Q. Now, is that a true and accurate translation into English of the

19 Hungarian text of your report?

20 A. The text in question matches the Hungarian text, but on three

21 accounts, I have some corrections or additions to the translation.

22 Q. Could you do so?

23 A. On line 6 of page 31, in the beginning of the line, there is the

24 phrase "acoustic locaters." The correct term is, "sound locaters."

25 One line lower, the translation lacks one word. The correct

Page 12393

1 phrase would be "gun and mortar of the platoon."

2 Q. Before you go on, you were, in respect to that second correction,

3 you would insert the words "and mortar" between the word "gun" and "of"?

4 A. Of course, what I described in that sentence are true for guns and

5 for mortars. If we add "and mortar" then it matches my Hungarian text.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 Could you now move on to the third one.

8 A. In line 12 of page 31, there is the third mistake. It now reads,

9 "gun or battery," and the correct version would be "gun or mortar." I

10 would like to make this change, because what is written there is true for

11 guns or mortars.

12 Q. Is there anything else you would like to change, or is that it?

13 A. Nothing else.

14 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours. I

15 have nothing further.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine

17 the witness, because at this moment, there are no further clarifications

18 to be asked by the Chamber.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to be specific,

20 yes and no. The Defence is not ready, with the reserves that we have

21 stated, but the Defence will go on with the cross-examination. If you

22 permit me, I would like to begin.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacs, on two to two and a half pages of the

Page 12394

1 text you made three corrections. The rest seems to reflect your thoughts.

2 Is that right?

3 A. The remainder of the text does not contain anything to be

4 corrected, and basically, matches the Hungarian version written by me.

5 Q. Very well.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the permission of the

7 Bench, I would like to show you a document which will be document D166.

8 Your Honour, I have to specify the following, and I am doing that in order

9 not to lead the witness to a mistake. The document that you will see is

10 simply a masked copy of the last page of the document we received before

11 the incident and it is simply because we overburdened him perhaps while we

12 were working, so I would not like to lead the witness to commit some kind

13 of a mistake.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... of the Hungarian

15 report?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is about the first, faulty

17 version that we received from the Prosecution, the one that has only 29

18 pages, and the one that I asked for during the questioning. And I can

19 present that to the Bench so that you can establish that the copy of the

20 document that I am providing --

21 JUDGE ORIE: I am asking you --

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- Serves only to assist the

23 witness.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- For the following reason. The report that has

25 been submitted is the final version of the report, not any previous draft

Page 12395

1 report or working report. I would like you to keep that clearly in mind

2 and indicate, since, if this is what the witness called the "working

3 report," you will be very limited in questioning him about it and not

4 asking him whether he agrees with certain elements which he might have

5 left behind in the final report.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. I would like

8 the witness to read to us four sentences that have been provided to him,

9 four sentences from his working report so that these sentences could be

10 translated into English.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please read in your own language these four

12 lines. I mean, read aloud.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "All commanders have to know the

14 effect of a projectile hitting the target or its vicinity and thus must be

15 able to decide whether the destruction and devastation zone is outside the

16 boundary that may not be crossed by the military because of the possible

17 civilian casualties. It is called murder" -- no, sorry.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's error. "Because of the possible

19 civilian casualties.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there has been

21 a mistake in the English booth. I think that it is quite clear that the

22 word, "it is called murder" is not mentioned and that this witness did not

23 state that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the interpretation now of these lines of a

25 report which is not submitted to the Chamber is that the line reads:

Page 12396

1 "Civil casualties," and not "murder".

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely. But I would

3 like the witness to confirm for us the essence of this translation error.

4 For the English booth, just for the witness to simply confirm the

5 translation that was given.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, is it true that this report, dating -- is it true that

9 this report is dated February 2002?

10 A. I would like to know which report you are referring to.

11 Q. I am speaking about the report that you called, "the working

12 report" or "the working copy.

13 A. Your question is, if these four lines are in the working copy?

14 Could you specify your question, please.

15 Q. Sir, my question is: Is it true that what you have just read is

16 from your report from February 2002?

17 A. It is similar to what I had in my report of February 2002, but I

18 could only confirm this definitely if I would have my working copy of

19 February to compare it to.

20 Q. Sir, do you have that copy with you?

21 A. I don't have that copy with me. The only thing in front of me is

22 the copy from April.

23 Q. Very well.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know if

25 the Registrar has this first, faulty report that I received. If not, I

Page 12397

1 can provide our own text but, unfortunately, it is marked.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... tendered into

3 evidence. It has been provided to you. Unfortunately --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I then show

5 our text to the witness so that he can identify it?

6 JUDGE ORIE: If you show the relevant page, if you ask the usher

7 to show the relevant page and ask the witness whether he now can confirm

8 that this was part of his text.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Sir, please don't pay any attention to the handwritten remarks.

11 Can you confirm that this is the text that you have written?

12 A. If I am correct, the last page, page 29 of this report, I don't

13 see any date or signature by myself on this page. So I cannot confirm

14 this with my -- consciously, with my conscience.

15 Q. Sir, take your time, and you should be able to know whether this

16 is your report or this is a report from some other source.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that it is the position

18 of the Defence that it comes from the same report. The Prosecution has a

19 copy of that report, so there is agreement on that. Would you please go

20 to your next subject.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are talking

22 about the credibility of this witness, this witness is hesitating.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... what he

24 experienced. It is your position that these four lines appear in his

25 original Hungarian report. The Prosecution agrees, so please move to your

Page 12398

1 next subject.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

3 Q. Sir, you wrote, in the final version of your report, some

4 additional words claiming that it is "murder".

5 In relation to this expert report, what happened between the 18th

6 of February 2002 until the 13th -- until the 30th of April 2002, so that

7 you suddenly added these words to your report, "it is called murder." So

8 this is your report?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the meantime, the usher

10 could return the first document, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the period you are referring to,

12 between February and April 2002, I worked through a major part of the

13 material. As I mentioned before, the previous version was a version --

14 working copy, and working through this text had an improvement as its aim.

15 So this -- this is what happened in those two months that I had the

16 material with me and I was working on it.

17 Q. Very well.

18 Sir, did you necessarily get in touch with anyone between the 18th

19 of February and the 30th of April, 2002? When I am talking about

20 "persons" I am thinking of people from the Office of the Prosecution,

21 Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal.

22 A. I understand your question. And in the time you are referring to,

23 I received questions referring to what subjects should be more expressly

24 indicated to achieve a better understanding. I also made some

25 improvements or corrections on my own initiative, and the two factors

Page 12399

1 resulted in the new material.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you.

3 And now, in relation to this excerpt that we are particularly

4 interested in, did you discuss that with the Prosecution and did you

5 receive questions, as you called them?

6 A. I have received a number of questions from the Prosecution and

7 they mainly had to do with the structure of my text, on the one hand, and

8 also some of them were questions that had to do with the use of cannons

9 and artillery so as to better understand the use of these weapons for the

10 layman.

11 JUDGE ORIE: May I interrupt you, Dr. Kovacs. The question is

12 quite clear, whether on these words, that is, "civilian casualties" in one

13 version and "murder" in the second version, which is a stronger language,

14 whether you received any suggestions by the Prosecution to change that

15 language. That is the question.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when you are talking

17 about these expressions and you are talking about the context, I did not

18 make these changes under pressure, in any way whatsoever. I changed it on

19 my own accord.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether there was any questions

21 specifically on this part, this wording of the report, not whether you

22 were under pressure to change it. You might have fully agreed when you

23 changed it if there were questions about it.

24 The question simply is: Were there any questions on this specific

25 part of the report or any suggestion? Is this a specific issue you

Page 12400

1 discussed, in whatever way, with the Office of the Prosecutor?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand your question very

3 well, Your Honour. And my answer is a definite no. I have not received

4 any question whatsoever regarding this particular issue. There was no

5 question referring to this among the ones I have received.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And no suggestions either?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there were no suggestions

8 either.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 Q. So, Mr. Expert, you are confirming that the changes you made came

12 from your own initiative. You decided on your own initiative to add this

13 as "murder"?

14 A. Yes, please talk about the Hungarian version because I can only

15 take full responsibility for the Hungarian text. And I think that the

16 Hungarian version which I added in April --

17 Q. Mr. Expert, we have to interrupt you. We know that there are two

18 texts that are very different. I am asking you if it is your own

19 initiative to decide to add these words that you know that mean "this is

20 murder, yes or no? Without paraphrasing.

21 A. In the expert text, every word that you find was put there, was

22 written down, by me, of my own accord.

23 Q. Could you please answer my question with a yes or no, if you can.

24 So it was your own initiative that lead you, following the 18th of

25 February, to add these words, these additional words?

Page 12401

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 Witness, so the rest of the report hasn't changed, in essence.

4 What caused this change on your side, on your par?

5 A. I think that this is a considerable change, a discrepancy, as

6 compared to the reality because there have been different changes of

7 meaning. It is not simply the words that have changed. I think there are

8 some essential facts that have been modified. And this is how you are

9 supposed to read my text. It is not two or three words that have changed.

10 Q. Witness, you are saying to me that the two texts between the 18th

11 of February and the 30th of April, are that different, are actually

12 different in essence?

13 A. Yes. I would say that the copy dated February 2002 is a working

14 copy. I made a number of changes in that particular text. And in April,

15 I drew up my final version and I did not state anything else apart from

16 this.

17 Q. Witness, I think we understand that there are two different

18 documents, one working copy and one final copy. Now, my question is,

19 please, these two texts, are they that different in essence, yes or no?

20 A. I would like to ask you just what exactly you mean by "to this

21 extent" in your question? Yes, there are differences, there are

22 differences between the two texts, but they are not radical changes, but

23 are certain stylistic differences and a number of things that I have

24 added, completed my text.

25 Q. Very well.

Page 12402

1 Witness, we will then agree to say that in fact these two texts

2 are not fundamentally different, they are not different in their essence,

3 then?

4 A. I am going to repeat myself. We are talking about two different

5 materials. The first one is a working document. The second one is the

6 final version of my text. And now to express the difference in

7 percentages between the two versions, well, I couldn't do this now.

8 JUDGE ORIE: May I again interfere. Dr. Kovacs, by mistake your

9 earlier report was given to the Defence, and they have compared your

10 working report with the final report. There seem to be not major changes

11 in view. The Defence has drawn the attention of the Chamber to those

12 changes that appear in your final text compared the earlier text.

13 What the Defence wants to know is what makes you choose the far

14 stronger wordings "murder," where your earlier report used the expression

15 "civil casualties." That is the question.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. Thank

17 you very much for the question. And, Your Honour, I am not -- I am not a

18 specialist in legal matters and I am sure you are aware of this. And so

19 when I used the word "murder," I did not use it in the legal sense, and of

20 course, I didn't think of this when I was writing my text.

21 It has no legal implications and I am sure that in your

22 terminology, this might mean something different.

23 JUDGE ORIE: But you changed the wording. What did you make feel

24 not satisfied with the words "civil casualties"? Why did you want to

25 change the wording and then subsequently you have chosen the word,

Page 12403

1 "murder"?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would have liked to

3 express in some way that there is a difference between civilian

4 casualties that I brought about accidentally and civilian casualties brought

5 about on purpose. And that is what I wanted to indicate and perhaps from

6 the legal point of view, I did not use the proper terminology. But I had

7 the feeling that perhaps this way, I could express the view that possibly

8 there was an intention behind this act.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well, that you felt that the

10 wording "civil casualties" would be more appropriate for just accidental

11 civilian people dying, while you were of the opinion that the situation

12 you described came closer to a situation where you should blame the person

13 for the casualties. Is that what you mean?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a shade of

15 meaning. There is a difference. There is a slight difference between the

16 two. I think that when you talk about civil casualties, this is something

17 that can happen when you destroy a military target without any intention

18 to bring it about. But at the same time, you can also have civil

19 casualties intentionally.

20 And I wanted to show the difference and perhaps I had not chosen

21 the proper expression, did not use the right sentence, but that was my

22 idea.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. And thank you, Witness, for the clarifications. We are going to

Page 12404

1 continue now. So, you will agree with me that the expression that you

2 have used, whatever was its meaning, it is though hypothetical, since you

3 were not able to know, practically speaking, if such-and-such a person did

4 have an element of intent in order to cause a particular result? Briefly,

5 please.

6 A. Of course. I agree, because I wasn't present and I didn't want to

7 express the intent by saying this, I just wanted to indicate a

8 possibility.

9 Q. Indeed.

10 Therefore, we will agree that the term of "murder" that you used

11 in your report, this is purely theoretical and hypothetical, based on

12 this?

13 A. Yes, I agree.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I will proceed very briefly on another

16 question, another point, Mr. President, with the reserves that I have

17 already expressed.

18 Q. Witness, you said on page 30 of the translation of your expert

19 report, also known as the "final version that you tried, you attempted to

20 bring answers to -- and I am now going to quote the words used in English

21 then: [In English] "Questions and assumptions drawn up by the MAT."

22 First question, could you please remind us what do you mean by

23 "MAT"?

24 A. This is an abbreviation mean the Military Analysis Team.

25 Q. In other words, this is the Prosecution?

Page 12405

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 12406

1 A. I don't really know exactly the links between the Prosecution and

2 the Military Analysis Team. This is why I put it down as it is, because

3 that was the way the question was put to me. So I am referring to that

4 question.

5 Q. Witness, what do you mean by using the term "assumptions"?

6 A. Assumptions refer to possibilities that might have -- things that

7 might have happened, one or two of them might have happened, but they are

8 not referring to concrete events.

9 Q. Witness, am I to conclude that the Prosecution or the "MAT" had

10 given you a number of such assumptions; yes or no?

11 A. The Military Analysis Team, in general, meant that we were looking

12 at questions and possibilities in general and we examined them together,

13 jointly, and I tried to help them from -- with my expertise.

14 Q. Very well.

15 But this data, this assumption, was given do you by the

16 Prosecution, were they not?

17 A. No, no, not at all. No. I am referring to something else. I am

18 referring to something that we have dealt together, it is a computation of

19 probabilities, if you like, and everything element of this computation is

20 based on suppositions and of course what we are studying is the first

21 shell, the first fire and the precision of the first fire, so that there

22 is -- I can't see any.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 Now, another two questions, Witness. Who and who with did you

25 work?

Page 12407

1 A. On behalf of the Military Analysis Team, there was a group and at

2 the same time, we also had a Hungarian group, a Hungarian team comprising

3 a number of specialists and I was a member of that particular group. And

4 we discussed various questions, theoretical questions, related to the

5 artillery.

6 Q. Very well.

7 My question was: And where? And where did you work?

8 A. You wanted to know where exactly these questions were asked,

9 geographically speaking?

10 Q. Where did you work? Yes, geographically speaking.

11 A. There were two meetings between the two groups. And this group of

12 question that we were discussing and studying in the year 2000, was

13 working in Budapest.

14 Q. Witness, since there is a group, it seems to be in Budapest, could

15 you perhaps tell us some names of experts who had worked with you?

16 A. Well, that took place in the fall of the year 2000, so I don't

17 really remember any specific name. I was a member of the group, but I

18 couldn't give you any names, specifically.

19 Q. Witness, you were a member of a group of experts and you cannot

20 give me names of people, experts, that you worked with in Budapest,

21 Hungary or you do not wish to do that?

22 A. You understood me correctly, I cannot give you the names; I just

23 can't remember them.

24 Q. Witness, would you be able to find these names in that way,

25 perhaps you can come back with these names.

Page 12408

1 A. I don't think I would be able to give you the names because I

2 didn't know these people before. I only met them once and I don't think I

3 have kept their names.

4 Q. Witness, you worked with a group of experts, you only saw them

5 once, you don't know how to find them again, and you don't know their

6 names; is that what I am to understand from your answer?

7 A. Yes, I understand you correctly and you understood what I said.

8 Q. Witness, these experts, were they men or women?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Kovacs, if you would give it a good effort, do

10 you think someone must have constituted this group, someone has invited

11 you, and I take it other members of the group as well? Would you be able

12 to reconstruct those persons of whom the group consisted?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you please repeat your

14 question, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you would give it a good effort, whether you could

16 find the names of those who took part in that group, and I suggested to

17 you that someone was must have called the members of the group together

18 and must have invited you, I take it, to participate in that group. So

19 perhaps that person would still know the names of the other members of the

20 group.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is quite probable,

22 Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there anything else you would like to --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, but we are going to

Page 12409

1 let the witness think about it overnight and then we are going to ask more

2 questions.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It depends, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. You left the area of

4 what you could have not have asked the witness at the previous occasion,

5 that whether he worked together with others by preparing his report, was a

6 question that could have perfectly put to the witness. The reason why I

7 intervened is that I wondered whether that would be the last answer of the

8 witness on what he could or could not.

9 But, are there any other issues concerning --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- [Previous translation continues]... Two pages?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. That is

13 the reason why I believe that in order not to make it difficult for

14 anyone, particularly not difficult for the witness, perhaps we could do it

15 tomorrow morning as early possible, that is the first hours of the hearing

16 tomorrow.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The first hours would be quite a lot of time for two

18 pages, but let me just confer with the other members of the Chamber.

19 Mr. Stamp.

20 MR. STAMP: If it is possible that we can complete today, I

21 respectfully ask that we try to do so. I think that there are huge

22 difficulties with this witness. He has pressing personal matters which he

23 had to leave to come here. And also we have only booked the Hungarian

24 interpreters for today and I am not sure if they will be available

25 tomorrow.

Page 12410

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes, that last part -- well, let me confer with

2 my colleagues.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters suggest to the President that the

5 Hungarian interpreters can stay tomorrow and that most people do not want

6 to work after 7.00. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I am aware of that and as I already expressed the

8 argument of the "not being available any more" of the Hungarian

9 interpreter would certainly not be the reason for the decision the Chamber

10 would first like to make. But we'd first ask the interpreters booth we

11 would like the continue for not more and strictly 15 minutes.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, the Hungarian interpreters are

13 able to stay on until tomorrow. Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It is not a matter of the interpreters. It is for

15 other reasons that we would like to conclude. So it is not for the

16 interpreters that we continue, but for other reasons.

17 Would the interpreters --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, of course, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have 15 minutes exactly, not more, to put

21 all the questions to the witness you would like to.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 Q. Witness, could you please give me now the names, all the names of

24 the people that you remember from that group. Thank you.

25 A. As I mentioned before, sir, I don't remember the names from this

Page 12411

1 group. So I couldn't give them to you now, and I couldn't give them to

2 you 15 minutes hence.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember one of the names or two of the names?

4 Please give the names that you would remember, even if it would not be all

5 of the group at this moment.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry, Your Honour, I can't

7 give you a correct answer just now. That happened two years ago.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Very well.

10 Witness, were these people men or women?

11 A. Men.

12 Q. Civilian or military?

13 A. Everybody was wearing civilian clothes, so I can't tell you.

14 Q. Young or old?

15 A. Mixed.

16 Q. Very well.

17 I am going on to another line of questioning. How long did this

18 committee work until? Or this commission?

19 A. I would like to correct your question, if you don't mind. It was

20 not a committee. I don't know the exact definition, but in my opinion, it

21 was an ad hoc group.

22 JUDGE ORIE: But, how long did the group work together?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a few questions. We were

24 discussing a number of questions, not concrete questions, general issues,

25 and it only took a few hours.

Page 12412

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, until which date, which day, which year, did this group

3 work? If you don't know it, just say you don't know.

4 A. I don't know the exact date.

5 Q. Very well.

6 Is it true that this group was already created in the year 2000;

7 yes or no?

8 A. It was in the year 2000 that the questions cropped up and these

9 are the questions I am referring to now. That's all I can say --

10 Q. Question is following: Can you please answer with a yes or no if

11 possible, do you know if this group was established in the year 2000; yes

12 or no?

13 A. This discussion took place in the year 2000.

14 Q. Very well.

15 So this group did this group see the draft of the conclusion, of

16 the findings of the report?

17 A. Are you referring to the expert opinion which is in front of me on

18 the table?

19 Q. I am talking about what you called, Witness, your working

20 document. Did they see it or not?

21 A. No, sir. That's what I stated before. It is my own work. I

22 produced it, nobody in the whole world saw it or commented on it from the

23 expert point of view.

24 Q. Very well.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I told you before that you were

Page 12413

1 far away from the last two pages and from what you could not have asked

2 the witness before. Would you please move to your next subject.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will, Mr. President.

4 Q. Now, Witness, I am just going to come back to one of the pages

5 that we have recently discovered. And you stated the following on page

6 31, end of the second paragraph, more or less, that the error of firing,

7 what I conclude to be the error of firing was about 200 to 400 metres. Is

8 that correct?

9 MR. STAMP: Perhaps the question may be more easily comprehended

10 by the witness if the document is quoted from precisely, the relevant

11 passage.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Yes, I will quote.

13 I will quote. [In English] "Of the first shot are specified for a point

14 located 200, 400 metres from the target in the opposite direction."

15 JUDGE ORIE: You found the passage, Dr. Kovacs?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour, I have found

17 this passage.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 Q. Is it true, Mr. Expert, that therefore there is an admissible

21 error of about 400 metres; yes or no?

22 A. I am terribly sorry. I cannot really answer this question because

23 the whole text is not referring to what you are asking me about. Because

24 this is not a question of a mistake. The 200 to 400 metres is not a

25 question of mistake.

Page 12414

1 Q. Withdraw the word "mistake." Is there a margin of firing which

2 could be between 200 and 400 metres?

3 A. No, this is not the question. This is not what I am talking about

4 in my text. In this particular sentence what I am saying is the

5 following: That there is a possibility, if you have your own forces that

6 happen to be in that particular area, then they would not start firing.

7 There is a firing range and they would not start firing at the target, but

8 at a certain point, a certain object which might be 200 or 400 metres away

9 from that particular target, where there can be no casualties. That is

10 what I am talking about.

11 Q. Very well.

12 By saying this, you are saying that there is a security margin of

13 about 2 to 400 metres?

14 A. No, no, no. It is not a safety limit. It is a little more than

15 that. It is more than a level of a safety limit.

16 Q. Very well.

17 So what is it, in a nutshell?

18 A. This is a little more than a safety zone, if you like. And this

19 is precisely so as to protect our own forces against undesired damage,

20 undesirable damage, and this is the way you use artillery.

21 Q. Very well.

22 Whatever name we give it, this is a margin in order to protect,

23 with the purpose of protecting one's own forces. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes. It can mean that, in a certain way.

25 Q. Very well.

Page 12415

1 So it could be like a security margin, more or less?

2 A. Yes, it could be, but this is not what it is. There is a

3 difference between the two.

4 Q. Yes, indeed. Very well.

5 Now this quasi-margin of safety or of security, Witness, doesn't

6 it mean that when there is firing, there is also a risk of error which

7 corresponds precisely to the margin or the quasi-margin of security; yes

8 or no?

9 A. There is a possibility of making a mistake, and of course it can

10 take place at any point in time whatsoever and this is precisely why you

11 have this distance.

12 Q. The very last question in this time that is given to me: Is it

13 correct, Mr. Expert, that the deviations are not simply in the axis but

14 they can also deviate from the axis, that is, not only in depth, but also

15 laterally, yes or no?

16 A. Naturally, there could be a lateral deviation as well, but a

17 deviation in depth, in general, is greater than a deviation sideways.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will stop

19 here for the obvious reasons. The Defence is hereby stating the

20 reservation that we may have to recall this witness. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

22 Mr. Stamp, you insisted on the witness to be excused. May I take

23 it that there are no further questions.

24 MR. STAMP: There are just a couple and they will be asked by Mr.

25 Ierace.

Page 12416

1 JUDGE ORIE: You cannot ask at 7.00 for the witness to be excused

2 and ask the interpreters, who clearly said to us that they prefer not to

3 work after 7.00 and of course they have their responsibilities as well.

4 Let me just do the following. You get one minute that was saved by the

5 Defence to put the most important question you would like to put to the

6 witness.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I ask those questions, I can

8 assure you that they only relate to one topic, which is the so-called

9 group and I think the reason will become obvious as to why we need to ask

10 those questions.

11 JUDGE ORIE: One or two questions and it is upon your request that

12 we continued and not on the request of anyone else. Yes, please.

13 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

14 MR. IERACE:

15 Q. Sir, was all the Lieutenant-Colonel Bela Komka and

16 Lieutenant-Colonel Antal Herdics and some military aides, the individuals

17 present with you at the meeting in late 2000 at the Hague and myself?

18 A. Bela Komka is an artillery officer. He might have been there, in

19 the year 2000, he might have been there. Would you repeat the other name.

20 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel A-N-T-A-L H-E-R-D-I-C-S and some military aides

21 and myself.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Can you repeat once again.

23 MR. IERACE: A-N-T-A-L H-E-R-D-I-C-S, and some military aides,

24 Hungarian acting as translators and myself.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Herdics, yes, he is also an

Page 12417

1 artillery officer. I don't remember exactly whether he was there or not,

2 but I can imagine he might have been there.

3 MR. IERACE:

4 Q. And military aides acting as interpreters and myself?

5 A. Yes, I remember that.

6 Q. All right.

7 A. Yes, I remember that there were interpreters and that is how we

8 were working.

9 Q. Do you remember me being there as well?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Can you repeat that.

11 MR. IERACE:

12 Q. Do you remember me being there as well?

13 A. You mean in 2000?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I cannot give you a precise answer.

16 Q. All right. Second question, when were you first asked to do a

17 report, in other words to be an expert witness, approximately?

18 A. In 2002, at the beginning of 2002, a few weeks prior to my

19 February text.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the absence of the Hungarian

23 interpreter -- I withdraw that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Kovacs, since there are no questions from the

25 bench, this concludes your second testimony in this court. I thank you

Page 12418

1 for coming back to The Hague and wish you a safe journey home. We adjourn

2 until tomorrow at a quarter past 2.00, but not after I have specifically

3 thanked the interpreters for their great flexibility. I know that I am

4 building up a bad reputation. I apologise for that. And we will be in

5 Courtroom I tomorrow.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

7 7.20 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

8 the 25th day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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