1 Thursday, 25 July 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Yes. I did understand, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you have provided
10 additional copies of the "determination de la Defense avec la Chambre aux
11 temoins employes du bureau du procureur Monsieur Philips et Lesic." I
12 also understood that it has been filed this morning, but the Chamber has
13 not yet had an opportunity to read it. It is not on our desks yet. So we
14 will do it as quickly as possible.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
16 provided a copy of the document to the Prosecution so they know of it.
17 Also, as soon as it was possible, we faxed the document and last night we
18 also sent another document stating that since we were not able to copy the
19 transcript, we needed a few more hours in order to inform you about our
20 position. Even though we were talking about Rule 94 bis, we could have
21 asked for the deadline to be respected, but we did it in this way and that
22 also applies to the Prosecution.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I think we
24 first now turn into closed session in order to hear the answer from Ms.
25 Pilipovic on a question that has been put to the Defence by the Chamber.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before that, I
3 don't know if I have already said that, but I was asked to mention for the
4 transcript the fact that we gave to the Registry a translation of Exhibit
5 D85, that was a document that hasn't been dealt with yet. But we did talk
6 about it yesterday. So this document should now be in the hands of the
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I -- I take it that the Defence has been
9 prepared by the Tribunal and, therefore I do not expect any problems from
10 the Prosecution in respect of this translation?
11 MR. STAMP: Perhaps we could have an opportunity to look through
12 it. I don't expect there to be any problem, but we will apprise the Court
13 if there is.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it is more practical to do it the other way.
15 There was the document D85 was provisionally admitted because there was no
16 translation. There is a translation now. Therefore, we admitted the
17 document, but of course, if there is any specific issue arising from this
18 translation, the Prosecution always can address the Chamber and ask to
19 reconsider its decision.
20 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So then D85 is admitted into evidence. And apart
22 from D85, then now the translation of that same document is D85.1 is
23 admitted into evidence as well. May we then turn into closed session.
24 [Closed session]
13 Page 12332 – redacted – closed session
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we will ask the usher to bring in the witness,
7 I first would like to give already orally the decision on the request of
8 the Prosecution to add Mr. Hogan to the list of witnesses and to have his
9 statement admitted into evidence under Rule 92 bis. The request is denied
10 and you will receive a written decision, I hope, by tomorrow. But I
11 already can give you in short, the reasons why. There are two elements in
12 the statement. Neither of these elements -- one is an explanation of the
13 efforts taken by the Prosecution to find and analyse UNPROFOR reports, and
14 the second part is measurements on sniping incident locations. It's --
15 the Chamber is of the opinion that the interest of justice do not demand
16 at this moment adding the name of Mr. Hogan to the witness list, and apart
17 from that, the relevance that it would add to the evidence already
18 presented in this court, the statement of Mr. Hogan is not such that under
19 Rule 92 bis, we think we should use our discretionary power to admit this
20 evidence. That is in short our decision, but you will get it in detail in
21 a written decision.
22 I expect as well, either this afternoon or tomorrow, that the
23 decision on 92 bis on all the other statements will be filed so that it is
24 accessible to both parties. Yes, Mr. Ierace.
25 MR. IERACE: Thank you for that, Mr. President. Just before the
1 witness is recalled, do you have in mind a time or a stage of the hearing
2 today when we will return to the issue of the recalling of Zoran Lesic and
3 Richard Philipps? I will be present to suit the Trial Chamber's
4 convenience in that regard.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I couldn't tell you yet, because we have not seen and
6 we have not read what the Defence has written. So, therefore, we will
7 first, during the first break, I take it that the Chamber will read at
8 least the response and then consider whether we could deal with it today
9 or only in the beginning of next week -- tomorrow or the beginning of next
11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we have just received the French copy
12 ourselves, but I anticipate I will be ready at the beginning of the next
13 session, should you be ready. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I will inform Mr. Stamp so that he can call you.
15 Meanwhile I see that the addendum to the report of Ewa Tabeau has been
16 handed over to the Chamber. I take it that -- no, you have not yet
17 received it. It will be given to the parties and in due course, the
18 parties will be given the opportunity to put additional questions to Ewa
19 Tabeau, but only in respect of this addendum.
20 Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
22 [The witness entered court].
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Hadzic. I again remind you
24 that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the
25 beginning of your testimony.
1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may resume the cross-examination of the
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague has
4 three or four questions and then I will finish the cross-examination.
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just to check about
6 the time, we were informed that we still have an hour, so did I understand
7 that correctly?
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yesterday I
9 believe you told us one hour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think I said half an hour, at least that is
11 what the Registrar told me and I then checked it when she did write down
12 her calculation. And I had to agree with her it was half an hour. But if
13 we together made a mistake, then you would please come and tell us exactly
14 how you would have calculated more than one half hour left at this moment.
15 Please proceed.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 WITNESS: ISMET HADZIC [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Hadzic.
21 A. Good day.
22 Q. Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief and also during
23 cross-examination by the Defence, you said that you had good relations
24 with UNPROFOR. Is this correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. During the time that you were commander, and I am talking about
2 the period in 1992, 1993, and 1994 were there any incidents with members
3 of UNPROFOR in the sense that they were physically mistreated or that they
4 were shot at by members of the 5th Brigade? Were there any incidents like
6 A. As far as I know, no.
7 Q. How often did you have meets with the members of UNPROFOR?
8 A. With the French Battalion, which was stationed at the airport, we
9 had meetings every week.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
11 like to show the witness a document. It is document D163.
12 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you have a document before you? From the 5th of
13 December, 1993?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In the right-hand corner it is signed by Commander of the
16 Headquarters of the Supreme Command, Delic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Below the date, the 5th of December, 1993, it is noted that an
19 inquiry was conducted about the wounding of an UN member in the settlement
20 of Dobrinja.
21 A. At our intervention, I repeat, we asked the general staff to
22 launch this investigation in order to establish who shot the French
24 Q. Mr. Hadzic, does it say in line two of this document, since the
25 authorised UN committee did conduct an investigation about the wounding of
1 Legionnaire Petkov --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's note, we don't have a copy of
3 the document.
4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. -- who is part of the UN forces, the result of the inquiry notes
6 that the soldier was wounded from a building which was in the zone
7 controlled by members.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence believes
9 that perhaps we did give this document to the interpreters. Perhaps, they
10 didn't receive one by mistake, but I do have a copy for the interpreters.
11 Q. So, Mr. Hadzic, this document, does it indicate that a member of
12 the UN was wounded in a zone which was under the control of the army of
14 A. He was wounded, yes.
15 Q. During your term in office, did you have contact with Mr. Stjepan
17 A. Mr. Stjepan Siber was in the General Staff and during the war, he
18 visited me only once when I left the hospital.
19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, are you aware that Mr. Siber has written a war diary?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Hadzic, if I were to tell you that Mr. Siber in his diary,
22 under the date of the 15th of July 1992 wrote that in conversation -- in a
23 conversation which he had that day, Colonel Jones also participated, and
24 he asked him for snipers from Dobrinja not to fire at them.
25 Can you answer us, from which positions did the snipers of the 5th
1 Motorised Brigade fire at the members of UNPROFOR?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
3 MR. STAMP: The question has in it a component which assumes that
4 the witness has accepted that snipers of the 5th Motorised Brigade did
5 fire at members of UNPROFOR.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please clarify the underlying issue,
7 Ms. Pilipovic.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Hadzic, did members of UNPROFOR, while you were commander of
10 the 5th Motorised Brigade, protest to you about snipers from the 5th
11 Motorised Brigade firing at UNPROFOR members?
12 A. Never.
13 Q. Mr. Hadzic, if I were to tell you that Mr. Stjepan Siber, in his
14 diary, wrote that a member of UNPROFOR was lodging a protest because
15 snipers from Dobrinja were firing at members of UNPROFOR, would you agree
16 with me that this is correct?
17 A. No. I repeat no. Because we controlled the entire area of
18 Dobrinja and -- we did not control the entire territory of Dobrinja and
19 Serb snipers fired from Dobrinja I and perhaps they were the one who hit
20 the French UNPROFOR members.
21 Q. Mr. Siber says that this -- the French UNPROFOR protested to him
22 saying that snipers from the 5th Motorised Brigade, from that zone, were
23 firing on UNPROFOR members.
24 A. Could you please explain to me who Mr. Jones is?
25 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I stated that Mr. Siber, in his diary, wrote that on
1 the 15th of July, 1992, Mr. Colonel Jones, a member of UNPROFOR, lodged a
2 protest with Mr. Siber because snipers from Dobrinja were firing at
3 members of UNPROFOR, thinking of snipers from the army of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So those from the 5th Motorised Brigade. So if Mr.
5 Siber published this in his diary, would you agree with me that this
7 A. No, no, this is not true.
8 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you --
9 JUDGE ORIE: May I -- there seems to be quite some confusion. Are
10 you asking whether the complaint by Mr. Jones was justified because the
11 facts upon which it was based were true; or are you asking whether it is
12 true that there was a complaint? Which is, of course, something
13 different. I repeatedly heard you put the question to the witness which
14 is not very clear, and then -- or at least if you take it literally, it is
15 about whether it is true that there was a complaint. And I hear the
16 witness answering again and again about the underlying facts. Could you
17 please clarify that there is no further mistake -- no further confusion.
18 MR. STAMP: Before my friend continues, may I just observe that
19 she is questioning the witness about something which she has not shown him
20 but she quotes from the book and having regard from the documents that we
21 have been delivered has been quoted incorrectly from the book. In that
22 she said that somebody in a war diary wrote that members of the 5th
23 Motorised Brigade were firing at UNPROFOR members. From a document that
24 we have had from the Defence, we do not see that there. So if she is
25 going to quote from the book, we ask her to quote accurately, firstly, and
1 secondly, perhaps it is better if she is going to ask about the writings
2 of somebody, to let him have a look at the writings.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the Chamber did not check the
4 correctness of the quote --
5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... but would you
7 please do it or give the text too.
8 THE REGISTRAR: D164.
9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you have a document before you where it states on
11 the first page, "Deceits, Falsehoods and Truth" and this is written by
12 Stjepan Siber?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Does that document have a page 108?
15 A. This is not a document.
16 Q. Is it a copy -- is the copy that is in front of you, does that
17 copy have page 108?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I will quote to you, paragraph two, on page 108, where
20 Mr. Siber states --
21 MR. STAMP: I am sorry.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Hadzic, paragraph, "the discussion was then joined by Colonel
24 Jones," this is written by Mr. Siber, "and he asked for us snipers from
25 Dobrinja not to fire at them and then I answered, 'Mr. Colonel, whoever is
1 firing at you, you should fire at them back because that person was not
2 ordered to do this by anyone.'"
3 Mr. Hadzic, did Mr. Siber, either verbally, or in writing, tell
4 you about the protest by -- the protest by Colonel Jones about snipers
5 from Dobrinja firing at UNPROFOR members in Dobrinja?
6 A. Never. I am reiterating, we did not control the entire Dobrinja.
7 The BH Army never fired at soldiers from the mission, soldiers who were
8 honorably carrying out their duty at Sarajevo airport. And they were
9 helping us so that we could survive in this area.
10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, a couple of minutes ago, we had a document -- you had
11 a document before you from which it could be concluded that an UN member
12 had been injured in the area of responsibility of the BH Army as he was
13 unloading a humanitarian aid convoy.
14 So what is the truth?
15 A. The truth, the only truth is that we did not fire at these people
16 and we asked ballistic investigation, our investigation from the Main
17 Staff, from the 1st Corps, in order to find out who fired at these people,
18 at this person, who was bringing humanitarian aid to us.
19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, bearing in mind your first answer, you said that
20 members of the 5th Motorised Brigade never fired at UN members and bearing
21 in mind the document that you were given by the Defence, which is the
22 document of the BH Army, also bearing in mind what Mr. Siber says about UN
23 protest about snipers in Dobrinja firing at UNPROFOR members, would you
24 agree with me that having looked at these documents, you are not telling
25 the truth?
1 A. Madam before this honourable Court, I swore that I would tell the
2 truth. I cannot tell falsehoods. I am reiterating, never have our people
3 from the 5th Motorised Brigade fired at UNPROFOR members. The document
4 you have shown me from the General Staff does not confirm it. This is our
5 own request. We wanted to have this investigated because the UNPROFOR
6 never managed to investigate this, never wanted to establish this.
7 Q. Mr. Hadzic, at my question, whether members of the 5th Motorised
8 Brigade fired at UN members you said no?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, in 1995 you were removed from the post of the
11 commander of the 5th Motorised Brigade by the commander of the 1st Corps,
12 Mr. Karavelic. Is this correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you tell us why were you replaced?
15 A. I was replaced because I had dismissed 200 people from the
16 manpower of the 5th Motorised Brigade, 200 people who were not able to
17 carry out military service, either because of their age, because they were
18 using drugs or because they were sick.
19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, while you were a commander, specifically, we are
20 talking about 1992, 1993, and 1994, did you personally have complaints
21 from the command of the 1st Corps about your work?
22 A. If there had been complaints, people would have replaced me.
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would
24 like to show the document D165.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. I don't want to interfere, but you
1 said three or four questions. You took 20 minutes now, approximately, of
2 the half hour remaining.
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can you see the document which on the left corner
5 bears the date of the 7th of December, 1993? From the document you can
6 see that the document was delivered to the command of the 1st Corps. Is
7 that correct?
8 A. The document has not -- doesn't have a seal anywhere. So, a
10 Q. I am just asking you whether this document is a report on the
11 problem of command and control in the 5th Motorised Brigade to be
12 delivered to the commander of the 1st Corps. I am just asking whether
13 this is what it says in the document in the first line.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Mr. Hadzic, in the penultimate line of this document, seventh line
16 from the bottom, it says "he is behaving in an autocratic manner,
17 provoking argument. He is not carrying out duties from the authority of
18 the commander because he is only receiving people in his office, and only
19 those people who are going through Dobrinja i.e. through the tunnel."
20 From this document, may one conclude that you have had problems
21 with the command of the 1st Corps and that these reports, such reports,
22 were delivered to the command of the 1st Corps?
23 A. No, it cannot be concluded from this document.
24 Q. So what you're saying is that you were never called for talks at
25 the command of the 1st Corps?
1 A. Because of this document, never.
2 Q. Did you call for talks because in Dobrinja you wished to establish
3 Muslim armed forces?
4 A. Never. I never tried to do that, ever.
5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you know about the prison called "Sunce" or "Sun,"
6 which is in the area of Dobrinja under the control of the 5th Motorised
8 A. Such a facility was never under the control of the 5th Motorised
10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, if I put it to you that people who were in the camp in
11 the facility called Sunce, a report was filed to the Prosecutor's office
12 of the International Tribunal against you, a person who was in charge of
13 detaining people, only Serbs, in the prison Sunce. Could you perhaps
14 answer this question, whether you have any such knowledge of these things?
15 A. No.
16 Q. If I put it to you that there are people who have filed such a
17 report, have submitted such report, and who were in this prison in 1992,
18 1993, and 1994, would you agree with me that this is correct?
19 A. Madam, the Dobrinja Brigade had, as part of its composition,
20 military detention which was only for the members of the 5th Motorised
21 Brigade for breaking discipline. And this facility that you have
22 mentioned under this name was never under the control of the Dobrinja
24 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether this facility existed and it was
25 under the control of the special police or of the battalion of the
1 Military Police, under the control of the Mr. Kerim Loncarevic?
2 A. I don't know that from the 5th or the 6th -- the 5th of July, from
3 which brigade was founded, we did not have this facility, we did not
4 control it. From the 6th of July, from the moment that the Dobrinja
5 Brigade existed as formation of the 1st Corps, we did not have such a
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence would now like to ask
8 Mr. Piletta-Zanin to continue cross-examination, who has got a couple of
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President may I just say
12 that we have had a problem in the calculation in the time left over by
13 something that you had said: [In English] "An hour left."
14 JUDGE ORIE: I have checked it the transcript and that is what the
15 transcript says and it also says clearly that the Prosecution took two and
16 a half hours. It is my recollection that I said half an hour, but I might
17 make a mistake, I am not quite sure, but I repeatedly said that the
18 Prosecution took two and a half hours. I will grant you 10 more minutes.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. You stated, page 13, line 14, a moment ago, you said that nobody
24 had fired on UN forces. How can you be certain --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.
1 MR. STAMP: I don't think that --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please -- I didn't think that that is what
3 the witness said, Mr. Piletta-Zanin: "Nobody had fired on UN forces." At
4 least, from the context, it must have been certain that the witness
5 testified that none of, may I say it, his troops or those belonging to
6 his troops fired at UNPROFOR.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, that nobody from the
8 5th Brigade had ever fired on the troops of the UN.
9 Q. How could you be absolutely certain of this and not allow the
10 possibility that any of your men may have taken a spontaneous decision to
12 A. I told you that the cooperation that we had with the French
13 Battalion which was based in Dobrinja, it was very good cooperation. Once
14 a week we had meetings, and if such a thing had happened, these
15 people would have told me about the problem. They never told us about
16 this. At these meetings, they did not warn us that anyone was firing from
17 our side on them.
18 Q. Witness, my question is the following: Could you, today, under
19 oath, completely rule out the possibility that one of your people had
20 ever opened fire on UN forces? Yes or no?
21 A. I did not understand the question.
22 Q. Witness, today, under oath, could you completely rule out the
23 possibility that one of your people, perhaps even without orders, had
24 ordered -- had fired on UN forces? Could you please answer with a "yes"
25 or "no."
1 A. Could you please repeat the question.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I thought that
3 my question was clear.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The question is, Mr. Hadzic, whether you think it
5 would be totally impossible that someone of your troops, perhaps without
6 you knowing it or not anything being reported to you, might have fired
7 once on someone of the UNPROFOR forces?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what you said, that
9 is possible. It is possible that somebody had fired and I don't know
10 about it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, this is your answer.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank
15 Q. Witness, the tunnel from Dobrinja to Butmir was officially opened
16 on the 30th of July. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Witness, before the official opening of the tunnel,
19 was this tunnel in operation?
20 A. Could you please clarify the question?
21 Q. Witness, if the official opening of the tunnel occurred on the
22 30th of July, could we consider that, a few days before the official
23 opening, the tunnel had indeed been broken through?
24 A. No. It was linked and it was open on the 30th of July, 1992. And
25 after the breakthrough or the linkage from one to the other side, the
1 first units of the BH army then left Sarajevo and went out to Mount
3 Q. Very well. Witness --
4 MR. STAMP: Just for the record, there is a matter of
5 translation which I think is important. I think the date should be the
6 30th of July, 1993.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it says 1992, but that is --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No confusion.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no confusion. Please proceed.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Witness, a little before the official opening of the tunnel, the
12 people were still working on the tunnel, right? Yes or no?
13 A. Even after the opening, the people were still working on the
15 Q. Very well. These people were soldiers; yes or no?
16 A. They were soldiers. From our brigade, people who worked there,
17 they were soldiers, and also people from other brigades.
18 Q. Very well. There was no Serb who was forced to work there; yes or
20 A. Could you please repeat your question? I don't find it very
22 Q. There was no Serb worker there who was forced to work on the
23 tunnel; yes or no?
24 A. The people who worked there were from our brigade. They were all
25 volunteers to work on the tunnel. There were 71 of them. Out of that,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 there were 15 who were non-Bosniaks, and the rest were Bosniaks.
2 Q. I would just ask you do answer very briefly, this tunnel, from
3 July 1993, did it allow you to bring in weapons? Yes or no?
4 A. To start with, no.
5 Q. Very well.
6 This tunnel did it allow you to bring in or bring out forces?
7 A. There were no forces that were brought in, but there were
8 people -- there were forces that were brought out.
9 Q. So this tunnel was a legitimate military target?
10 A. I don't know that. Because -- because through the tunnel,
11 civilians and soldiers went through it. That was the only communication
12 between Sarajevo and the world.
13 Q. Very well.
14 Witness, you spoke in your statement about the army in that it did
15 not go to certain -- did not go to get supply water from certain stations
16 because it had tanks, water systems, water tanks that were mobile. Is
17 that correct; yes or no?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 You said in your statement that you were getting your water from
21 the brewery. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Witness, was this a brewery that was located in the area of
24 Bistrik or in another area?
25 A. Yes, in the area of Bistrik.
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 Witness, was there just a brewery there in Bistrik, as far as you
4 A. There is only one brewery in Bistrik.
5 Q. Witness, do you know if in this area, and in this brewery, wasn't
6 there a workshop for making -- for manufacturing weapons? Yes or no.
7 A. I don't know that.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 Witness, these mobile cisterns, were these cisterns towed by
10 civilian vehicles? Yes or no?
11 A. Could you please clarify what you mean.
12 Q. They were driven by a soldier.
13 These water cisterns that you talked about, were they towed, that
14 is, were they towed by civilian vehicles or at least did they seem to be
15 towed by civilian vehicles?
16 A. It is a motor vehicle with a tank towing a cistern attached and
17 the driver was a member of the brigade. We received the cistern from the
18 utility company and they used those cisterns in order to wash the streets.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 Witness, do you know if vehicles like front-loading lorries could
21 be used by the army for identical needs, that is, in order to dig and in
22 order to use as excavators?
23 A. I don't know that
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, I am just going to
25 confer, Mr. President, for 30 seconds.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Witness, this is our last question --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have already gone 12-13
5 minutes. Last question now, means last question.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The very last one.
7 Q. I am going to give you the following dates three dates: 1st of
8 June 1993, 12th of July 1993, and 4th of February 1994. Are you certain
9 that there was no combat on these dates that I have just mentioned?
10 A. As far as I know, no.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, is there any need to re-examine the
14 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:
17 Q. In respect to the last question you were asked by the Defence, you
18 said, as far as you know, there was no combat on three dates that you were
19 given. You are in a position, I take it, to speak about your brigade's
20 area of responsibility; is that so?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 Yesterday, you indicated that a JNA that occupied Mojmilo hill
24 were eventually designated by you as a Serb army, and you said: "Serbs
25 arrived and changed the flag." The Serbs changed the flag from what flag
1 to what flag?
2 A. When the soldiers just reached the Mojmilo hill, it was the JNA
3 with the Yugoslav flag. After the Albanian members of the JNA fled from
4 Mojmilo, the composition changed. The Serb army came and they hoisted the
5 Serbian flag in that place. There was no longer the Yugoslav flag flying.
6 Q. Were these regular Serb army soldiers that hoisted these flags,
7 the Serb flags?
8 A. I think they were members of the reserves.
9 Q. You said in cross-examination that in the early months of 1992, a
10 large number of Serbs left Dobrinja. You also said before that in
11 response to me that approximately 30 per cent of the personnel in your
12 brigade, and I should say approximately 13, 1-3 per cent of the personnel
13 in your brigade, were Serbs. Among the civilians, did all the Serb
14 civilians leave Dobrinja or did some remain and continue living there
15 during the conflict?
16 A. Not all left Dobrinja. A lot of Serbs remained to live there.
17 The most precise data is the data from the Red Cross, that is in
18 possession of the civilian protection, civil protection.
19 Q. You said there was a period of time when you had problems with a
20 Military Police unit. Did -- was any action ever taken to resolve these
21 problems or could you tell us what became of that?
22 A. During the structuring of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, this
23 problem was resolved, and the person who was commanding that police unit
24 was replaced. And that formation that he headed was disbanded and the
25 people were re-allocated to other brigades.
1 Q. You were shown a document marked D160 and I ask the Court if you
2 can be shown that document again.
3 MR. STAMP: My apologies to the Court. I really have ought to
4 have asked that he be shown document D158.
5 Q. You see on that document near the top the words: "Komanda one
6 Korpus"? Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You see some words written immediately below that. What are those
9 words? What do they mean?
10 A. In the establishment of the brigade that is one sector that
12 Q. What is the sector that you see there described?
13 A. As far as I know, it dealt with morale, psychological problems of
15 Q. Continue. Tell us what it does and then I will get back to you.
16 You were saying it dealt with morale, psychological problems. Go on.
17 A. Psychological aspects, cultural and entertainment, lectures,
18 cultural evenings. All of those things that in some ways could relax the
19 people in the brigade.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, what I am asking you to do is to tell us exactly
21 what those words say.
22 A. "Sector for morale."
23 Q. Go on. What does it say after that?
24 A. "Psychological, social and military questions."
25 Q. Are there the initials or the acronym "IPD"? What is that?
1 A. Sector for morale, conduct, psychological issues, social issues.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. STAMP: I would just respectfully ask the Court to take note
4 of the translation provided.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But perhaps before doing so, could we ask the
6 witness -- Mr. Hadzic, could you tell us what stands "VP" for?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Military questions.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. STAMP:
10 Q. Could I just make one aspect of your testimony clear, when, if you
11 recall the month in 1993, did your brigade receive 81-millimetre mortars?
12 A. I can't say precisely, but in late 1993, we received one mortar of
13 81 millimetres calibre. It is a subcalibre. And this is what we used to
14 train people. We didn't have shells for it. We had to adjust the shells
15 for it in order to use them, and that was the problem with that weapon.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues]... that 81 millimetre mortar?
17 A. No.
18 Q. When did you first receive mortars that you could use?
19 A. While preparing for assault operations in --
20 Q. When?
21 A. This is 1994. We received mortars which we were preparing for
22 those combat activities. And we transferred them to the area of
23 responsibility that we had.
24 Q. Which month, if you can remember, and which year?
25 A. 1994, in the spring. In the spring of 1994.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 You said in cross-examination that there were police units located
3 in a building behind a school, and you showed us an area to the east of
4 the positions that you controlled. Do you recall that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. These police units, can you tell us briefly, what was their
7 function or role?
8 A. They were located in Dobrinja. We were not very well armed. We
9 didn't have enough people so they had their own area of responsibility.
10 They had their own command and they held that area of responsibility. The
11 part of the territory that they controlled was an area that could be used
12 for the passage of tanks and they also had anti-armour weapons. So this
13 is why they were responsible for that area.
14 Q. Were they armed with infantry weapons, like rifles as well?
15 A. They only had infantry weapons.
16 Q. You also said that there was no sniper nest or you were not aware
17 of a sniper nest in the school in Dobrinja. Could you tell us what do you
18 mean or what -- when you speak of a "sniper," what are you speaking of
19 when you respond to these questions? What do you mean when you were using
20 the word, "sniper"?
21 A. Could you please clarify a little bit what you are asking.
22 Q. You answered quite a few questions about whether there were or
23 were not snipers or sniper nests at a school on the eastern frontier of
24 your area of responsibility. I just want to know, what do you mean when
25 you use or you answer a question to the expression or word, "sniper"?
1 What do you mean by "sniper"?
2 A. For me, a sniper is a trained, educated person with special
3 weapons. It is a special kind of person that can carry out that kind of a
4 dirty job.
5 Q. Were the police units or your units in that area trained in that
7 A. The units of the 5th Motorised were not trained in that way.
8 These were people who received only superficial training. They were just
9 people -- normal, regular people.
10 Q. You were shown a document --
11 MR. STAMP: If I may have a moment.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. You were shown a document written by one Stjepan Siber and you
15 said he was a part of the headquarters of the army. Do you know what
16 ethnicity he was? From which ethnic group he was from?
17 A. He was a Croat.
18 Q. It was suggested to you, when you were shown a passage from that
19 document that the 5th Dobrinja Brigade were being accused of shooting. I
20 would like you to have a look at that document, with the leave of the
22 MR. STAMP: It is document D164.
23 Q. Can you look at that document in your own language and tell me if
24 there is any part, particularly that part of it dealing with the 15th of
25 July 1992, from page 107 and page 108, can you tell us if it says in that
1 entry anything about a complaint being made about persons or any UNPROFOR
2 soldier who was shot from Dobrinja -- I beg your pardon, was shot from
3 areas controlled by the 5th Motorised Brigade? Do you see that there?
4 Could you have a look at it and let me know.
5 A. No, there isn't.
6 Q. This document -- or the date referred to is the 15th of July,
7 which is 9 or 10 days after the official formation of the 5th Motorised
8 Brigade. On or around the 15th of July, 1992, was the 5th Motorised
9 Brigade in full control of all the armed forces in the Dobrinja area?
10 A. On the 15th of July, I stated yesterday that we needed two months
11 in order to complete the establishment of the brigade. We had problems in
12 digging trenches, callup, looking for locations, food supplies, all of
13 those things which were necessary for it to be able to exist. But I would
14 also like to say that at that point we did not control the entire area of
15 the Dobrinja. And it was possible from three or four places in Dobrinja
16 that we did not control, to have sniper fire come from those areas and
17 accuse us of doing it because we had Dobrinja III and Dobrinja IV, which
18 had a view of Dobrinja I and Dobrinja II, and they were covering the
19 Airport Settlement as well as the area around the airport.
20 Q. Could you have a look at document 163.
21 MR. STAMP: With the leave of the Court, can he be handed document
23 Q. Quickly, in respect to my last question, nine days after the
24 brigade was officially organised, that is the 15th of July 1992, did you
25 have full control of all the Bosnian forces in Dobrinja at that time? It
1 would be helpful if you could tell me.
2 A. No, no.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 Have a look at document 163. You were asked or it was suggested
5 to you in respect to that document that there was fire coming from your
6 area of control. Could you look at that document and tell me whether or
7 not it states or suggests any allegation that fire was coming from any
8 area controlled by the 5th Motorised Brigade in Dobrinja?
9 A. As far as I know, no. As far as I can see, no.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 Have you ever been charged with a criminal offence?
12 A. Never.
13 MR. STAMP: That is the cross-examination, Mr. President. There
14 is one area --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Re-examination, I take it.
16 MR. STAMP: I beg your pardon. Re-examination. There is one area
17 which does not arise directly from the cross-examination, with perhaps the
18 leave of the Court I could ask the leave of the Court to clarify, if I
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We are strict on the Defence and we are also strict,
22 it would be of vital importance, whether it is just one of the issues you
23 have forgotten, then there will be no opportunity to --
24 MR. STAMP: I think if we had clear answers on something which the
25 answer is possibly there but may require an inference, if the witness
1 could give us a clear answer to the question I am asking, it could be of
2 some assistance to the Court.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Would that be a question that has been put to him at
4 an earlier occasion --
5 MR. STAMP: From my review of the records.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If it is not really vital --
7 MR. STAMP: It is vital.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You may put the question to the witness. We will
9 then decide whether it is vital, after we have heard Mr. Piletta-Zanin,
10 and we will then see whether the witness can answer the question.
11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know
13 what is the question the Prosecution would like to ask, but perhaps they
14 could state it clearly so that we can follow them for once and then
15 perhaps the witness could leave the courtroom, the Prosecution could tell
16 us their point of view, and then maybe we can then take the position.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it is better done not in the presence of the
18 witness. Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
19 courtroom just for a very short moment.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Which question would it be, Mr. Stamp?
22 MR. STAMP: The witness said yesterday that the area on the map
23 which he drew between the entrance of the tunnel and the buildings in
24 Dobrinja that is a trench.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. STAMP: He said that on the 12th of July, 1993, there was just
2 a meadow there. I just wish to clarify with him, when exactly that
3 communication trench between the entrance of the tunnel and the buildings
4 were built.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: You may put that question to the witness, Mr. Stamp.
7 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
9 Therefore, the consequence being is that if there is need, we could
11 JUDGE ORIE: I can tell you why, if you want the reason. That
12 question was on my list of questions as well. So it is for that extent it
13 is just a matter of who puts the question to the witness.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But, Mr. President, if this
15 question had been on His Honour's list, after you would have asked it,
16 then I would have been able to intervene, following the rule --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if a new element comes up, then,
18 of course it always has been allowed the Defence. That goes even without
19 saying. Please escort the witness into the courtroom.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
22 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. Could he be shown Exhibit
23 P3732. And could it be put on the ELMO so we can see.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The ELMO is not of great assistance at this very
25 moment. Yes, now it is.
1 MR. STAMP:
2 Q. I would like you to look at and point to the part of the red line
3 where you said there was a communication trench between the buildings of
4 the Dobrinja and the entrance to the tunnel.
5 A. [Indicates]
6 Q. Can you tell us when that communication trench was constructed?
7 A. Right after the tunnel was opened. That's when the communication
8 trench was started from the house next to the tunnel because it turned out
9 that people going into that building were creating a crowd and it was
10 possible to see them from Gavrica Brdo, so then for the sake of security,
11 a trench was dug from that house up to the entrance of the tunnel here, so
12 that people would be safer. And they were less noticeable from the
13 Gavrica hill, if they use the trench.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 You said "right after the tunnel was opened." Is it possible for
16 you to be a little bit more precise. Can you tell us what do you mean by
17 "right after". How soon after? I understand you may have to
19 A. The work on the tunnel was continuous, so from the 30th of July,
20 in that period up until September, that's when that was carried out.
21 Because --
22 Q. What I am asking you to do you said the construction of this
23 trench began right after the 30th of July. What do you mean by "right
24 after"? How long after the 30th of July did you begin to dig that or
25 construct that trench?
1 A. It started about 10 days after the 30th of July. I can't be sure
2 exactly, but that is my estimate.
3 Q. Before --
4 MR. STAMP: You may take that away.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You said you had one question. You asked for one
6 clarification, yes?
7 MR. STAMP: Yes, nothing further.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. First of
10 all, I think that we should clarify for the transcript on this issue, and
11 I would like to re-intervene with your leave, of course.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, first, ask whether the Judges have any
13 questions, so that you can add all the questions at one time.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to
17 Questioned by the Court
18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I need the help of Mr. Usher with the Exhibit
19 3732 the map.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please assist.
21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes, please put that on the ELMO.
22 I think that you marked the spots of the various shelling
23 incidents except one which is the incident of the 22nd of January 1994 in
24 Alipasino Polje. May I take it that Alipasino Polje is not shown on this
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Is not?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I have a question on that. The first one is
5 that whether you went to Alipasino Polje during the war, let's say, until
6 September 1994?
7 A. I was just passing through.
8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: But you went there, you passed through
9 Alipasino Polje?
10 A. Yes I was passing through to the city.
11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The second question is: How far is Alipasino
12 Polje from Dobrinja? Let's say from the building of the brigade
13 headquarters, as the crow flies?
14 A. Between 2 and 3.000 metres.
15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: All right. That is enough. Can we see in
16 this map the Orthodox church?
17 A. You can't see the Orthodox church on this map.
18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The Faculty of Theology?
19 A. I think that you can't see that either.
20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No more questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Since Judge El Mahdi has some more questions for you
22 and I have some more questions for you as well, perhaps we first take the
23 break. We will adjourn until 20 minutes past 4.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi.
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 [Interpretation] I would like to ask you if you can inform me
4 about the scale of the map which is in front of you, approximately, if you
6 A. I wouldn't be able to answer. Perhaps 1 to 1.000, something like
7 that, I don't know,.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Approximately.
9 A. 1 to 10.000.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I believe that you
11 know, according to your military experience that the field of firing of a
12 rifle, of a gun which was used by the former JNA for the snipers, do you
13 know the range, the firing range of a rifle, of a sniping rifle?
14 A. From 1500 to 1800 metres.
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So it is not possible that that
16 would go over one kilometre, 1.8 kilometres, in your opinion, it wouldn't
17 go over that?
18 A. I really don't know.
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 You indicated on the map the headquarters of the brigade called
21 the Dobrinja Brigade and you said that the headquarters of the brigade was
22 located in a building which had eight floors. Did I understand you
23 correctly? Is that true? Is that how I should have understood it?
24 A. Yes. Six or eight floors. I cannot be absolutely certain, but it
25 was a higher building.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but if I understand you
2 correctly, your headquarters was located on the first floor and it was
3 from the second floor, until the sixth or the eighth floor were these
4 floors occupied by civilians, did civilians live on the second to the
5 eighth floor?
6 A. The command was not on the first floor. It was in the cellar of
7 that building, in the basement of that building. And it used business
8 premises above the basement of that building.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. So one could say that the
10 command was in the basement but that there were soldiers who were on the
11 first or on the second floor, and apart from that, the other floors were
12 civilians located on other floors?
13 A. On the first and second floor, there were no military -- there
14 were no troops there. If the apartments were not destroyed vertically,
15 then civilians did inhabit those apartment.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But there were civilians living
17 there during the period of -- from 1992 to 1994, there were civilians
18 living there?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And is this also valid for other
21 headquarters of battalions, of battalions of the brigade?
22 A. Yes. Battalion commands were located in those buildings because
23 we did not have any other choice. These were commands which were
24 practically unarmed in those parts of buildings. There were no military
25 facilities there so that we could locate our command somewhere where there
1 would be no civilians living there. The only possible possibility that we
2 had for the armed formations for the Dobrinja Brigade to locate them for
3 the companies and the platoons, we kept them in the area of
4 responsibility, in the trenches and the buildings that had been abandoned.
5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You said, and I am
6 quoting: [In English] "Forming the line of defence."
7 [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly, these were
8 buildings that were destroyed or semi-destroyed and you were using them as
9 means of defence. Did I understand you correctly? Is this what you said?
10 A. These were destroyed and abandoned buildings. There were no
11 civilians living there. These were destroyed and abandoned buildings.
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But before they were destroyed,
13 they had been inhabited by civilians, these had been civilian buildings,
14 residential buildings where civilians had lived.
15 Did the headquarters change or move during the period of the
16 conflict, the location, the location of the headquarters, did they change?
17 A. Battalion commands, no. Command of brigades changed three or four
18 times. They moved to the neighbouring building and then they moved back,
19 changed location within the building.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Was this in order to avoid the
21 firing from the opposing side? This was for military purposes that they
23 A. I wouldn't say for military purposes. For security purposes.
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] For security purposes. You mean
25 for military security. Could you perhaps clarify? This is so that they
1 would not be targeted by the opposing side?
2 A. I think this was in the way that the change of the location would
3 protect. What we were worried about that if we stayed in the location too
4 long, that this information would reach the opposing side about where we
5 were and then somebody from the command would get killed, which is the
6 reason why we changed the location.
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
8 In relation to the tunnel, you said that the tunnel was
9 operational from the end of July 1992. And when did the work on the
10 tunnel begin?
11 A. End of July 1993.
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, 1993.
13 A. As far as I can remember, it was March 1993 that the work on the
14 tunnel had begun.
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you said that people would
16 then usually get together or were grouped in a building which was in front
17 of the trenches. The workers, you explained it well, but there were
18 soldiers who took part in the construction work of the tunnel. So were
19 there also civilians who took part in this work?
20 A. No.
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] As a soldier, one would imagine
22 that women had also taken part in military work. Were there also women
23 who were taking part in the construction work?
24 A. Among the people from our brigade, there was not a single woman
25 who had taken part in the construction of the tunnel. Because the whole
1 procedure of digging the tunnel had been dealt with by logistics of the
2 1st Corps and we had to provide people to dig every seven days, and people
3 went in shifts in order to dig the tunnel.
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And during the work, was this
5 location targeted by the opposing side? You said that the opposing side
6 was not aware of the entrance to the tunnel. Is that true, in your
8 A. During the work and the digging, there was no particularly heavy
9 firing on our side of the location where the tunnel had been -- the
10 digging had been ongoing. So there were shells landing of equal
11 intensity. It wasn't -- after the tunnel had been dug, the second part of
12 the tunnel was more intensely belt, it was probably that the Sarajevo
13 Romanija Corps had seen and then they started to shell more intensely, our
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but if I understood you
16 correctly, they did not know exactly where the entrance to the tunnel was.
17 A. That's my personal feeling. I think they did not know where the
18 entrance to the tunnel was. And on these locations when the tunnel was
19 fully operational, there were occasionally 2 or 3.000 people who couldn't
20 all fit into the surrounding building that were right close in the
21 vicinity of the tunnel.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And these people, where were
23 they? Where was their accommodation? You said that they were not in the
24 nearby buildings. Were they in the buildings near, but were they in the
25 area of the -- near the area of the entrance to the tunnel?
1 A. We tried to move these people who were waiting to go into the
2 tunnel, to move them because of the shelling, but there were so many
3 people at times that we couldn't move them and they still waited in front
4 of the tunnel and near the building which was near to the entrance to the
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzic, I have a few questions for you as well.
8 You told us that at the beginning of the conflict quite number of
9 people were pressed to leave Dobrinja, but that many had remained there.
10 Has it ever been considered to evacuate further parts of the population?
11 A. Any movement represented a danger for us, any movement of the
12 population in Dobrinja. We had plans in the event of a breakthrough of
13 the lines, in case the enemy troops entered Dobrinja, then we would, with
14 the assistance of the civil protection, enable the population to leave
15 Dobrinja. But in any case, any movement of our population presented a
16 danger for the survival of Dobrinja because if a man that you had, if you
17 allowed his family to leave, then he wasn't much more use to you any
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you explain that last part of your answer?
20 A. We were afraid that if we evacuated, for no reason, if we
21 evacuated the people to the city without any reason, then very quickly the
22 soldiers whose families were evacuated would leave Dobrinja. Because the
23 psychological pressure of how the families are, how they were living, how
24 they were getting on, would have an effect on those people, and then it
25 would perhaps make it easier for them or make it possible for them to go,
1 to leave the brigade and go to be with their families, if something like
2 this happened.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever consider that the presence of
4 civilians in Dobrinja perhaps would prevent a, I would say, an attack that
5 would destroy the whole area, and therefore the presence of civilians
6 would, to that extent, partially protect Dobrinja?
7 A. No.
8 JUDGE ORIE: My next question is: It was not quite clear to me
9 what your answer was on the question of the intensity of the shelling of
10 the buildings where the headquarters were located. Was that similar to
11 whatever other buildings or did you receive more fire at the buildings
12 where your headquarters were located, either a battalion or the brigade
14 A. Not more or less than the rest of Dobrinja. So, the battalion
15 commands and the brigade commands were not exposed to more intense
16 shelling than the other parts of Dobrinja.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Have you ever considered to evacuate the civilians
18 from the buildings where the headquarters were located, so not evacuation
19 on a large scale, but just from the buildings where the headquarters were
20 located in the "sous-sol," as they say it in French.
21 A. Two buildings where the commands were situated, the command of the
22 1st Battalion and the brigade command there was a very large atomic
23 shelter. So we would bring the civilians from -- in from the edges of
24 Dobrinja where they were living to shield them from artillery fire or from
25 combat. So we tried to protect them from that. And we tried to bring
1 them into the central parts of Dobrinja. And then after a while, we
2 didn't have any more maneuvering space because about 3.000 apartments
3 were completely demolished in Dobrinja and another 2000 which would
4 not -- which were not habitable. So the zone where we were in, it was
5 very difficult. It wasn't of much use for the civilians. The
6 concentration of people was highest in the central parts of the
7 settlement, while the buildings in the central part of the settlement are
8 very large buildings with four or five entrances, with six, seven, or
9 eight floors, with three to four apartments per floor, so one staircase
10 from top to bottom would have 24 apartments.
11 So, if in that building, one vertical line was destroyed, then you
12 had to find other 24 apartments somewhere else or put two or more families
13 in one apartment. So this was physically impossible because there simply
14 wasn't enough space.
15 JUDGE ORIE: My last question is: Looking at the map and
16 listening to your answer as far as the scale of this map, approximately,
17 is concerned, would it be correct to say that the distance from the
18 nearest building to the entrance of the tunnel would be approximately 150
19 metres or?
20 A. About that much.
21 JUDGE ORIE: About 150 metres?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers.
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
1 First of all, I have two observations to make. The first one is that I
2 have the impression, I have to say it now, that one of the questions of
3 His Honour Mr. El Mahdi was not reported in the transcript and this is
4 38.39. I believe that the witness did answer, but this did not come out
5 into the transcript. I don't know whether this is correct. Perhaps we
6 can have a look at it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You said 38.39. You are referring to pages, I take
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Pages 38, line 8, line 9. [Interpretation]
10 Eight and nine. We can see that two questions of His Honour Mr. El Mahdi
11 come after one another.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree that two questions come after each other.
13 I have -- it is not in my recollection whether there was any answer --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness had said yes to
15 the first of the questions. And I apologise. I did not want to interrupt
16 His Honour, Judge El Mahdi, but I think that it would be good to intervene
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is not in my recollection any more. So we
19 will have to check that at the -- at the audio tape, I think.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could ask the witness. A question has
22 been put to you by Judge El Mahdi saying that "but before they were
23 destroyed," and he was talking about buildings, destroyed and abandoned
24 buildings, "they had been inhabited by civilians, these had been civilian
25 buildings, residential buildings where civilians had lived."
1 You answered in the affirmative?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That is then clear for the transcript.
4 Please proceed, Mr. President.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just have three questions to
6 ask. Thank you. But before that, Mr. President, it would be good to
7 consider that after the witness can tell us what happened to the famous
8 line between the trench and the tunnel on the screen, on the ELMO, this
9 was not reported in the transcript. It would be good if we can explain it
10 for the transcript with the help of the usher. If it can be put again on
11 the ELMO, which is already the case. Thank you. And clarify the
13 Further cross-examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, in relation to the tunnel line, I can
15 see two points on this map, one which corresponds to a red circle and the
16 other one which corresponds to a red dot. Is it true that the red dot
17 corresponds to the entrance of the tunnel which was dug under a house, yes
18 or no, and perhaps if you can indicate the dot on the map so that we can
19 all have it clear.
20 A. [Indicates]
21 Q. No, that is not what I mean. I meant the other dot, further up.
22 A. [Indicates]
23 Q. Yes, that one.
24 A. This is the communication road Kasindolska Street-Kula. Below the
25 road or the communication, there was a small tunnel which was dug between
1 the front and the back trench.
2 Q. Witness, you said that you had started the work in digging under a
3 house. Is that the house that we can see to the right of the red dot?
4 A. That is the house.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 Witness --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to prevent whatever confusion. When
8 the witness --
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- Answered yes, he pointed at the red circle, not at
11 the red dot. Where I had the impression that when you were talking about
12 "under a house" that you are rather referring to the red dot, than to the
13 red circle.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I saw him
15 indicate the red dot. Perhaps he could be given a different pointer.
16 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
17 JUDGE ORIE: He now again points to the small circle and that is
18 what I saw him doing before.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise.
22 Q. Witness, you said that you started the work under a house. Is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Witness, could you please indicate where is the house under which
1 you had started the work?
2 A. [Indicates]
3 Q. Witness, where do you see a sign of a house, symbol for a house on
4 this map?
5 A. I don't see houses around here. This was a settlement. This was
6 a settlement here.
7 Q. Witness, would you agree with me if I said that around the red
8 circle there are no houses?
9 A. What do you mean, there are no houses? The tunnel -- we started to
10 dig under a house. You can still see that house today.
11 Q. Very well.
12 So I will go on with other questions. Witness, could you tell us
13 when did you start the work on the trenches, not necessarily the tunnel,
14 but the trenches?
15 A. On which trenches do you mean?
16 Q. We are talking about the trenches linking supposedly the entrance
17 to the tunnel and Dobrinja.
18 A. I said a moment ago, about 10 days after the opening.
19 Q. Very well.
20 You said that 2 to 3.000 people would gather near the tunnel.
21 Where would they gather, could you please indicate for us on the map,
23 A. Since this building where there was the definitive entrance to the
24 tunnel, this building which was completely destroyed, and nobody lived
25 there, from the buildings below in the garages of these houses, people
1 would shelter and wait those people who waited and those who couldn't find
2 any accommodation, they were waiting outside, near the tunnel, in the area
3 near the tunnel.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the transcript, Mr.
5 President, the witness indicated two buildings which were to the north of
6 the vertical red line.
7 Q. Witness, do you know if it was necessary to have an authorisation
8 for the civilians who were going to use the tunnel?
9 A. Every civilian had to have permission. If they were able-bodied
10 or not, they had to have permission from the Ministry of Defence, or if
11 they were unable to do military service, to have a certificate and to have
12 a permission, if they are civilians, from the Ministry of the Interior and
13 also a permission to go through the tunnel. And this was used by the
14 civilian authorities, to these people who were not members of the armed
16 Q. Would you agree with me to consider that the army was controlling
17 the flux of civilians, the flow of civilians, yes or no?
18 A. Yes. The flowing of population was controlled by the command of
19 the corps or people from the corps.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 Witness, the last question, you said, that's what I understood, on
22 page 42 line 18, page 43 that the headquarters of the brigade were located
23 in the basement, that is, in nuclear shelters of these buildings. Did I
24 understand you correctly?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 The very last thing, sir: If I tell you that we have here a
3 statement stating, and I am referring to P3726.1, a high representative of
4 the UN forces saying that this tunnel had been opened the end of March,
5 perhaps, beginning of April, 1993 --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is not related to one of the
7 questions. We have talked about digging trenches to the entrance of the
8 tunnel. We have during the examination-in-chief and cross-examination,
9 you had ample opportunity -- at the opening of the tunnel and this is
10 beyond the scope of what you are allowed to ask to the witness at this
11 very moment.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzic -- yes, Mr. Stamp
14 MR. STAMP: There was just one question I had from something
16 JUDGE ORIE: Question from what?
17 MR. STAMP: From the Bench.
18 Further re-examination by Mr. Stamp:
19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, were civilians population in Dobrinja compelled by
20 force to remain in Dobrinja?
21 A. Never.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzic, this -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am saying
24 this before the witness for courtesy. We said that we did not have time
25 to look at the last two documents that were communicated -- that were
1 handed over by the Prosecution yesterday or the day before. We were not
2 able to look at it until now, so we are stating this with the reservation,
3 the Defence is stating that if we discover things in these documents, can
4 we be able to recall this witness? This is not certain, this is a
6 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand you ask the right to reserve to ask
7 to recall the witness if there is anything new in the documents that you
8 just referred to. Yes.
9 Mr. Hadzic, this concludes your testimony in this court. Thank
10 you very much for having come to The Hague. A lot of questions were put
11 to you both by the parties and by the Judges. You answered them and I
12 would like to thank you for coming and answering the questions and I wish
13 you a safe trip home again.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please --
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Unless there is a specific reason -- yes?
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. If it is
19 the case and the Defence recalls this witness, it would be good that he
20 should be reminded that he should not speak to anyone about this. It
21 could be within a week. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether this could be within a
23 week and it is at this moment rather hypothetical.
24 Mr. Hadzic, the Defence has reserved the right to ask whether --
25 to ask the Bench to have you recalled for reasons not yet known at this
1 moment. That would mean that you should not talk with anyone about your
2 testimony at least not during the first week to come, since there is still
3 a chance -- I am not saying that there is a probability, but it is a big
4 chance or a small chance that you would be recalled. In the event if that
5 would happen, then we would rather see you here without you having
6 discussed your testimony with anyone.
7 You understood that? Yes. Then again, thank you, and Mr. Usher,
8 could you please escort Mr. Hadzic out of the courtroom.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, is the Prosecution ready to call its next
14 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President. But I was wondering if --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we first have to deal with the documents. You
16 are perfectly right. Since it is quite a number of documents, I should
17 not have forgotten it.
18 Madam Registrar could you please guide us through the documents.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3729, CD-rom; Exhibit --
20 MR. STAMP: I think you have the wrong disk.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel.
22 MR. STAMP: We might have the wrong disk. I think we are doing
23 the list for Ewa Tabeau now.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think, as a matter of fact, that this is the
25 CD-rom that still waits to be tendered with the chart of the witness
1 Philipps. Is that true, Madam Registrar? Or is it the data of -- what do
2 we find on the CD-rom?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3732, map marked by witness --
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In relation to the map, and
7 following a question that your Chamber asked, I was wondering whether we
8 could perhaps, before the map is admitted, we would like to ask the
9 Prosecution to give us the exact scales. I think that would help us to
10 establish the right distances. I hope that the Prosecution is aware of
11 the scale.
12 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, I think this is something that all the
13 parties could agree upon. The maps are maps from, I think, a particular
14 one known as 7 Nima and for some purposes they are expanded, they are
15 reduced. My understanding is an --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me be short. We have approximately six or seven
17 maps with an exact scale. We have asked for it a several times. If you
18 take a centimetre, and we all know how large this is, it is easy for
19 everyone to establish the scale without any mistake and do whatever
20 calculations you will have to do. I mean, discussing at length the scale
21 of every single map while we can easily reconstruct it --
22 MR. STAMP: If I may, with respect to the Exhibit, at the bottom
23 of the Exhibit, the line that goes across, just above the names Hogan and
24 Zaimovic, the lines are marked in areas of 100 metres between each square
25 is a kilometre. I beg your pardon -- yes, each square is a kilometre and
1 it is subdivided along the line in 100 metres. Regardless of how the maps
2 are enlarged or reduced, that can assist in determining distances.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If that would be of guidance then, Madam Registrar.
4 So we don't need a specific scale, but we do know what the scale is,
5 whether enlarged or not.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D158, letter dated 23/01/1994, in B/C/S;
7 D158.1, English translation; D159, letter dated 08/10/1992 in B/C/S;
8 D159.1, English translation; D160, order dated 01/11/1992 by Ismet Hadzic,
9 in B/C/S; D160.1 English translation; D161, order dated 01/11/1992 from
10 Ismet Hadzic in B/C/S; D161.1, English translation; D162, intelligence
11 report dated 01 October 1993 in B/C/S; D162.1, English translation,
12 partial translation; D163, letter dated 5 December 1993 by Rasim Delic, in
13 B/C/S; D163.1, English translation; D164, document in B/C/S, war diary
14 1993; D164.1, partial English translation; D165, letter dated 07 December
15 1993, problems of leadership and commanding in 5th Motorised Brigade for
16 1st Corps command; D165.1, English translation.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 Mr. Stamp, may I then -- your next witness will be?
19 MR. STAMP: We would respectfully object to the reception into
20 evidence of D164.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 Yes, that is part of the book of Stjepan Siber, as far as I
23 understand, yes.
24 MR. STAMP: And I can't recall the number of a statement that the
25 witness had been shown or perhaps it was not tendered. In respect to
1 D164, Mr. President, Your Honours, it is the Prosecution submission that a
2 book by someone else is not probative, if the witness has not in any way
3 accepted what it is saying. Neither is the statement by that person. It
4 does not assist in the finding or resolving any of the issues that the
5 Court is faced with.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I am
8 surprised. I thought that we spoke at length before this Chamber about a
12 [redacted]. What is interesting, is
13 that the commander of this witness declared certain things and what is
14 more interesting, Mr. President, is that the communication between Mr.
15 Stjepan Siber and this person responsible for the Dobrinja Brigade was not
16 functioning. So this is a very important piece of evidence for the
17 Defence in order to demonstrate that the chain of command at the very same
18 time when we thought that they were perfectly established, very frequently
19 were not functioning, were not operational. And if this was not in
20 operation for the army of Sarajevo which has now been demonstrated it can
21 also happen that it wasn't operational, it wasn't working for the VRS
22 Army. Thank you very much.
23 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, if I may, perhaps, I don't know if we
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that should be redacted.
3 MR. STAMP: And the second thing really is that the situation
4 there was that the witness accepted and adopted the contents of the book.
5 Here the witness says he doesn't know about what is said in the book.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained for two reasons: First of
8 all, the comparison with another book that has been quoted is not a reason
9 to accept this part of this book for the reason that that book reflected
10 something the witness testified about, where in this case, the witness
11 says that he doesn't know anything about it.
12 The second reason is that the Defence makes the mistake that if
13 this witness does not confirm what is in the book, that the line of
14 command is not functioning well, that suggests that what is in the book is
15 true. Of course, it may be true. The Chamber doesn't know. But if the
16 Defence takes the position that it is true what is in this book, then the
17 Prosecution should have an opportunity to test the reliability of the
18 person that expressed his views in this book.
19 Therefore, the objection is sustained and D164 will not be
20 admitted into evidence.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just to make
22 sure that things are clear, the Defence believes, although it takes note
23 of your position --
24 JUDGE ORIE: It is not a position, it is a decision,
25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Yes.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise. Of your
2 decision. The Defence however believes and we have to say it, that our
3 rights have been offended on the level of evidence. We need to say this
4 at this very moment. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 Mr. Stamp.
7 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Your next witness would be?
9 MR. STAMP: Dr. Kovacs.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Kovacs. Recall of Dr. Kovacs. Before we start
11 with the examination of Dr. Kovacs, I will tell you to what limits the
12 examination of Dr. Kovacs may go. First, the Prosecution will have an
13 opportunity to, if they want to, to examine Dr. Kovacs on, I would say,
14 the history of his statement, if I may express it that way. I think
15 everyone knows what I mean. So if there is any need to do that, the
16 Prosecution may first do so.
17 If necessary, the Chamber will put additional questions in this
18 respect. Then the Defence is allowed to cross-examine the witness on
19 every aspect that was not known to the parties at the conclusion of the
20 previous examination of Dr. Kovacs. So that could include part of what I
21 will call "the history" and certainly would include the last pages that
22 have been added, that were in the last version of the report we received
23 and that were not in the previous report that was distributed.
24 So that is the order of the examination of Dr. Kovacs. Mr. Usher,
25 could you please -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, before
2 Mr. Kovacs enters the witness box, the Defence would like to underscore
3 that the Defence will not examine this witness, except that they were
4 forced to do this, and I have to explain, that this document was never
5 submitted to the Defence with the respect of the deadlines, with the
6 respect of a rule 94 and others. So the examination of this witness is
7 happening under these circumstances. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that I would rather not talk about
9 being "forced," but at least I can imagine that the Defence is not quite
10 happy with the situation it is in and I think that the Chamber has already
11 expressed that it was not very happy with what happened in respect of
12 Dr. Kovacs's report.
13 On the other hand, the Chamber has carefully looked at the
14 contents, especially of the added or at least to the last pages of the
15 final report of the Dr. Kovacs and is of the opinion that the contents is
16 such that the Defence should be able to cross-examine the witness on these
17 parts of the report. But I -- the Chamber has taken notes of the
18 observation the Defence just made.
19 Would you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Kovacs, can you hear me in a language, even if it
23 is with the help of the interpreter, in a language you understand?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Since it has been quite some time, I would rather ask
1 you to make again the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your
2 previous testimony. So the text of that solemn declaration will be handed
3 out to you now by the usher. May I invite you to make that solemn
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. I solemnly declare that
6 I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please be seated. May I ask you to remain
8 standing. I took the wrong order because I would have had to ask you to
9 make a solemn declaration first. Therefore, I invite you to make a solemn
10 declaration as an interpreter and would you -- may I invite you to make
11 that solemn declaration.
12 THE INTERPRETER: I solemnly declare that I will interpret
13 faithfully and impartially and with full respect for the duty of the
15 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to confirm that the interpretation
16 that you have done until now, has been done in a similar spirit?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I would like to confirm that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
19 Mr. Stamp.
20 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. With your leave, Mr.
21 President, could the witness be handed document Exhibit P3725 and P37251.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the record, may I ask the interpreter
24 whether she is Maria Bolgar?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I am, sir.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
2 MR. STAMP: And also, Mr. President, he has been shown already
3 P3725A.1 and P3725A. I will ask for P3725. Can he also be shown that
5 THE REGISTRAR: I have P3725A.2.
6 MR. STAMP: No. The original document which was received in
7 evidence on the previous occasion.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 MR. STAMP: I believe they're recalling a copy, in the meantime,
11 may I ask the Doctor some questions until one is located?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes you may.
13 WITNESS: VILMOS KOVACS [Recalled]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examined by Mr. Stamp:
16 Q. Dr. Kovacs, you had been asked to prepare a report in respect of
17 artillery matters for the purposes of this case, had you not?
18 A. Yes, Your Honour.
19 Q. And did you prepare a draft report sometime in February of this
21 A. Yes, correct. We call that "working copy."
22 Q. And subsequent to that, in April of this year, did you prepare a
23 final copy of that report, of your report?
24 A. Yes, correct.
25 Q. Did you prepare it in the Hungarian language?
1 A. Yes, of course. Both were prepared in the Hungarian language.
2 Q. The final one which you prepared, did you fax a copy of that to
3 the relevant officials of the OTP?
4 A. Correct.
5 MR. STAMP: With the assistance of Mr. Usher, could he be shown
6 P3725A. It is with him now. He has it already. Could you indicate to
7 him which one is P3725, please.
8 Q. Could you have a look at that document, and tell us if this is the
9 report you prepared in your own language?
10 A. Yes, this is the one I prepared.
11 Q. And on the last page of it, it is dated the 30th of April, 2002?
12 A. Yes, correct.
13 Q. And you have signed it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you now have a look at the document marked P3725A.1.
16 Could you look at page 30 of that document.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And line 22 from the top of that page, could you find that line,
19 please. Do you see a sentence there beginning: "I have given the
21 A. Yes, correct. I see the sentence.
22 Q. Could you peruse from that sentence to the end of the document,
23 approximately one to two pages? Could you look at, check and read from
24 that sentence to the end of the document and tell us if that is a
25 translation into English of the Hungarian text of the document, of the
1 30th of April 2002.
2 A. I could do that, if I see it. Close to two pages, my knowledge of
3 the English language does not enable me to go through it very quickly. I
4 would need to put the two text beside each other.
5 Q. You may compare the two texts.
6 A. Yes, of course.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if the witness
9 says that he is not, due to his limited knowledge of the English language,
10 if he is saying that he cannot do it, perhaps it would be good to ask him
11 to read his report in his original language and then we may come closer to
12 the truth.
13 MR. STAMP: It could be done that way too. But he did say --
14 JUDGE ORIE: The witness did not say that he could not do it --
15 MR. STAMP: Very quickly.
16 JUDGE ORIE: It is just a matter of time. Perhaps, Mr. Stamp, we
17 could do that during the break, although, I am aware that it is not nice
18 for the witness to read the two documents, but to apply the same procedure
19 as we did before, that in the presence of the Registrar, that the witness
20 gets the time or in the presence of one of the legal officers, that the
21 witness gets the time to compare whether his original report and the
22 English translation, whether that is there in both the documents. And the
23 parties of course may remain for the time the witness would need for that
24 in the courtroom so that they can see that he is not consulting
25 everyone -- anyone.
1 If we do it this way we are sure that he takes the time he needs
2 and that we will have a reliable answer to your last question.
3 Dr. Kovacs, may I ask you to read this part of the document. You
4 say you couldn't do it quickly. Just take your time. I would like to ask
5 you to remain in this courtroom so that everyone can see that you are
6 consulting no one while performing this task. When you are ready, please
7 tell the Officer of the Court that is present, that you are ready. If
8 there is any time left, of course, there is a break for you as well. And
9 during the break, you are supposed not to speak with anyone about your
11 MR. STAMP: May I make one inquiry?
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: This would not -- you are not supposed to talk with
14 the interpreter about your testimony, but if you would need the assistance
15 of the interpreter for the comparison, you can ask her assistance.
16 MR. STAMP: That was my request.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That was your request.
18 We will then adjourn until 6.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 6.12 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Kovacs, I feel sorry for you that we had a break
22 and you had not.
23 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the
25 transcript, it would be good to say that we have our expert who is sitting
1 with us.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Welcome in the courtroom.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.
4 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I should indicate one thing to you first.
6 The Chamber decided that since document P3725 was filed it would not have
7 to be admitted into evidence and not to be tendered anymore. Therefore,
8 the Registrar has retrieved the filed copy, so if you would use it, it is
9 not an exhibit, but it is a filed report.
10 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President. I perhaps would not use it,
11 but I thought it should be available here.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It is there if you need it.
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. Dr. Kovacs, having had an opportunity to peruse the translation
15 from where I showed you, that is, line 22 down from the top of page 30 to
16 the end of the document, in English.
17 A. Yes, I did examine the section you are referring to.
18 Q. Now, is that a true and accurate translation into English of the
19 Hungarian text of your report?
20 A. The text in question matches the Hungarian text, but on three
21 accounts, I have some corrections or additions to the translation.
22 Q. Could you do so?
23 A. On line 6 of page 31, in the beginning of the line, there is the
24 phrase "acoustic locaters." The correct term is, "sound locaters."
25 One line lower, the translation lacks one word. The correct
1 phrase would be "gun and mortar of the platoon."
2 Q. Before you go on, you were, in respect to that second correction,
3 you would insert the words "and mortar" between the word "gun" and "of"?
4 A. Of course, what I described in that sentence are true for guns and
5 for mortars. If we add "and mortar" then it matches my Hungarian text.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 Could you now move on to the third one.
8 A. In line 12 of page 31, there is the third mistake. It now reads,
9 "gun or battery," and the correct version would be "gun or mortar." I
10 would like to make this change, because what is written there is true for
11 guns or mortars.
12 Q. Is there anything else you would like to change, or is that it?
13 A. Nothing else.
14 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours. I
15 have nothing further.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine
17 the witness, because at this moment, there are no further clarifications
18 to be asked by the Chamber.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to be specific,
20 yes and no. The Defence is not ready, with the reserves that we have
21 stated, but the Defence will go on with the cross-examination. If you
22 permit me, I would like to begin.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacs, on two to two and a half pages of the
1 text you made three corrections. The rest seems to reflect your thoughts.
2 Is that right?
3 A. The remainder of the text does not contain anything to be
4 corrected, and basically, matches the Hungarian version written by me.
5 Q. Very well.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] With the permission of the
7 Bench, I would like to show you a document which will be document D166.
8 Your Honour, I have to specify the following, and I am doing that in order
9 not to lead the witness to a mistake. The document that you will see is
10 simply a masked copy of the last page of the document we received before
11 the incident and it is simply because we overburdened him perhaps while we
12 were working, so I would not like to lead the witness to commit some kind
13 of a mistake.
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... of the Hungarian
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is about the first, faulty
17 version that we received from the Prosecution, the one that has only 29
18 pages, and the one that I asked for during the questioning. And I can
19 present that to the Bench so that you can establish that the copy of the
20 document that I am providing --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I am asking you --
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- Serves only to assist the
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- For the following reason. The report that has
25 been submitted is the final version of the report, not any previous draft
1 report or working report. I would like you to keep that clearly in mind
2 and indicate, since, if this is what the witness called the "working
3 report," you will be very limited in questioning him about it and not
4 asking him whether he agrees with certain elements which he might have
5 left behind in the final report.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. I would like
8 the witness to read to us four sentences that have been provided to him,
9 four sentences from his working report so that these sentences could be
10 translated into English.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please read in your own language these four
12 lines. I mean, read aloud.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "All commanders have to know the
14 effect of a projectile hitting the target or its vicinity and thus must be
15 able to decide whether the destruction and devastation zone is outside the
16 boundary that may not be crossed by the military because of the possible
17 civilian casualties. It is called murder" -- no, sorry.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's error. "Because of the possible
19 civilian casualties.
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there has been
21 a mistake in the English booth. I think that it is quite clear that the
22 word, "it is called murder" is not mentioned and that this witness did not
23 state that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the interpretation now of these lines of a
25 report which is not submitted to the Chamber is that the line reads:
1 "Civil casualties," and not "murder".
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely. But I would
3 like the witness to confirm for us the essence of this translation error.
4 For the English booth, just for the witness to simply confirm the
5 translation that was given.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Witness, is it true that this report, dating -- is it true that
9 this report is dated February 2002?
10 A. I would like to know which report you are referring to.
11 Q. I am speaking about the report that you called, "the working
12 report" or "the working copy.
13 A. Your question is, if these four lines are in the working copy?
14 Could you specify your question, please.
15 Q. Sir, my question is: Is it true that what you have just read is
16 from your report from February 2002?
17 A. It is similar to what I had in my report of February 2002, but I
18 could only confirm this definitely if I would have my working copy of
19 February to compare it to.
20 Q. Sir, do you have that copy with you?
21 A. I don't have that copy with me. The only thing in front of me is
22 the copy from April.
23 Q. Very well.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know if
25 the Registrar has this first, faulty report that I received. If not, I
1 can provide our own text but, unfortunately, it is marked.
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... tendered into
3 evidence. It has been provided to you. Unfortunately --
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I then show
5 our text to the witness so that he can identify it?
6 JUDGE ORIE: If you show the relevant page, if you ask the usher
7 to show the relevant page and ask the witness whether he now can confirm
8 that this was part of his text.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Sir, please don't pay any attention to the handwritten remarks.
11 Can you confirm that this is the text that you have written?
12 A. If I am correct, the last page, page 29 of this report, I don't
13 see any date or signature by myself on this page. So I cannot confirm
14 this with my -- consciously, with my conscience.
15 Q. Sir, take your time, and you should be able to know whether this
16 is your report or this is a report from some other source.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that it is the position
18 of the Defence that it comes from the same report. The Prosecution has a
19 copy of that report, so there is agreement on that. Would you please go
20 to your next subject.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are talking
22 about the credibility of this witness, this witness is hesitating.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... what he
24 experienced. It is your position that these four lines appear in his
25 original Hungarian report. The Prosecution agrees, so please move to your
1 next subject.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
3 Q. Sir, you wrote, in the final version of your report, some
4 additional words claiming that it is "murder".
5 In relation to this expert report, what happened between the 18th
6 of February 2002 until the 13th -- until the 30th of April 2002, so that
7 you suddenly added these words to your report, "it is called murder." So
8 this is your report?
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the meantime, the usher
10 could return the first document, please.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the period you are referring to,
12 between February and April 2002, I worked through a major part of the
13 material. As I mentioned before, the previous version was a version --
14 working copy, and working through this text had an improvement as its aim.
15 So this -- this is what happened in those two months that I had the
16 material with me and I was working on it.
17 Q. Very well.
18 Sir, did you necessarily get in touch with anyone between the 18th
19 of February and the 30th of April, 2002? When I am talking about
20 "persons" I am thinking of people from the Office of the Prosecution,
21 Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal.
22 A. I understand your question. And in the time you are referring to,
23 I received questions referring to what subjects should be more expressly
24 indicated to achieve a better understanding. I also made some
25 improvements or corrections on my own initiative, and the two factors
1 resulted in the new material.
2 Q. Very well. Thank you.
3 And now, in relation to this excerpt that we are particularly
4 interested in, did you discuss that with the Prosecution and did you
5 receive questions, as you called them?
6 A. I have received a number of questions from the Prosecution and
7 they mainly had to do with the structure of my text, on the one hand, and
8 also some of them were questions that had to do with the use of cannons
9 and artillery so as to better understand the use of these weapons for the
11 JUDGE ORIE: May I interrupt you, Dr. Kovacs. The question is
12 quite clear, whether on these words, that is, "civilian casualties" in one
13 version and "murder" in the second version, which is a stronger language,
14 whether you received any suggestions by the Prosecution to change that
15 language. That is the question.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when you are talking
17 about these expressions and you are talking about the context, I did not
18 make these changes under pressure, in any way whatsoever. I changed it on
19 my own accord.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether there was any questions
21 specifically on this part, this wording of the report, not whether you
22 were under pressure to change it. You might have fully agreed when you
23 changed it if there were questions about it.
24 The question simply is: Were there any questions on this specific
25 part of the report or any suggestion? Is this a specific issue you
1 discussed, in whatever way, with the Office of the Prosecutor?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand your question very
3 well, Your Honour. And my answer is a definite no. I have not received
4 any question whatsoever regarding this particular issue. There was no
5 question referring to this among the ones I have received.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And no suggestions either?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there were no suggestions
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
11 Q. So, Mr. Expert, you are confirming that the changes you made came
12 from your own initiative. You decided on your own initiative to add this
13 as "murder"?
14 A. Yes, please talk about the Hungarian version because I can only
15 take full responsibility for the Hungarian text. And I think that the
16 Hungarian version which I added in April --
17 Q. Mr. Expert, we have to interrupt you. We know that there are two
18 texts that are very different. I am asking you if it is your own
19 initiative to decide to add these words that you know that mean "this is
20 murder, yes or no? Without paraphrasing.
21 A. In the expert text, every word that you find was put there, was
22 written down, by me, of my own accord.
23 Q. Could you please answer my question with a yes or no, if you can.
24 So it was your own initiative that lead you, following the 18th of
25 February, to add these words, these additional words?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 Witness, so the rest of the report hasn't changed, in essence.
4 What caused this change on your side, on your par?
5 A. I think that this is a considerable change, a discrepancy, as
6 compared to the reality because there have been different changes of
7 meaning. It is not simply the words that have changed. I think there are
8 some essential facts that have been modified. And this is how you are
9 supposed to read my text. It is not two or three words that have changed.
10 Q. Witness, you are saying to me that the two texts between the 18th
11 of February and the 30th of April, are that different, are actually
12 different in essence?
13 A. Yes. I would say that the copy dated February 2002 is a working
14 copy. I made a number of changes in that particular text. And in April,
15 I drew up my final version and I did not state anything else apart from
17 Q. Witness, I think we understand that there are two different
18 documents, one working copy and one final copy. Now, my question is,
19 please, these two texts, are they that different in essence, yes or no?
20 A. I would like to ask you just what exactly you mean by "to this
21 extent" in your question? Yes, there are differences, there are
22 differences between the two texts, but they are not radical changes, but
23 are certain stylistic differences and a number of things that I have
24 added, completed my text.
25 Q. Very well.
1 Witness, we will then agree to say that in fact these two texts
2 are not fundamentally different, they are not different in their essence,
4 A. I am going to repeat myself. We are talking about two different
5 materials. The first one is a working document. The second one is the
6 final version of my text. And now to express the difference in
7 percentages between the two versions, well, I couldn't do this now.
8 JUDGE ORIE: May I again interfere. Dr. Kovacs, by mistake your
9 earlier report was given to the Defence, and they have compared your
10 working report with the final report. There seem to be not major changes
11 in view. The Defence has drawn the attention of the Chamber to those
12 changes that appear in your final text compared the earlier text.
13 What the Defence wants to know is what makes you choose the far
14 stronger wordings "murder," where your earlier report used the expression
15 "civil casualties." That is the question.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. Thank
17 you very much for the question. And, Your Honour, I am not -- I am not a
18 specialist in legal matters and I am sure you are aware of this. And so
19 when I used the word "murder," I did not use it in the legal sense, and of
20 course, I didn't think of this when I was writing my text.
21 It has no legal implications and I am sure that in your
22 terminology, this might mean something different.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But you changed the wording. What did you make feel
24 not satisfied with the words "civil casualties"? Why did you want to
25 change the wording and then subsequently you have chosen the word,
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would have liked to
3 express in some way that there is a difference between civilian
4 casualties that I brought about accidentally and civilian casualties brought
5 about on purpose. And that is what I wanted to indicate and perhaps from
6 the legal point of view, I did not use the proper terminology. But I had
7 the feeling that perhaps this way, I could express the view that possibly
8 there was an intention behind this act.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well, that you felt that the
10 wording "civil casualties" would be more appropriate for just accidental
11 civilian people dying, while you were of the opinion that the situation
12 you described came closer to a situation where you should blame the person
13 for the casualties. Is that what you mean?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a shade of
15 meaning. There is a difference. There is a slight difference between the
16 two. I think that when you talk about civil casualties, this is something
17 that can happen when you destroy a military target without any intention
18 to bring it about. But at the same time, you can also have civil
19 casualties intentionally.
20 And I wanted to show the difference and perhaps I had not chosen
21 the proper expression, did not use the right sentence, but that was my
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. And thank you, Witness, for the clarifications. We are going to
1 continue now. So, you will agree with me that the expression that you
2 have used, whatever was its meaning, it is though hypothetical, since you
3 were not able to know, practically speaking, if such-and-such a person did
4 have an element of intent in order to cause a particular result? Briefly,
6 A. Of course. I agree, because I wasn't present and I didn't want to
7 express the intent by saying this, I just wanted to indicate a
9 Q. Indeed.
10 Therefore, we will agree that the term of "murder" that you used
11 in your report, this is purely theoretical and hypothetical, based on
13 A. Yes, I agree.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I will proceed very briefly on another
16 question, another point, Mr. President, with the reserves that I have
17 already expressed.
18 Q. Witness, you said on page 30 of the translation of your expert
19 report, also known as the "final version that you tried, you attempted to
20 bring answers to -- and I am now going to quote the words used in English
21 then: [In English] "Questions and assumptions drawn up by the MAT."
22 First question, could you please remind us what do you mean by
24 A. This is an abbreviation mean the Military Analysis Team.
25 Q. In other words, this is the Prosecution?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I don't really know exactly the links between the Prosecution and
2 the Military Analysis Team. This is why I put it down as it is, because
3 that was the way the question was put to me. So I am referring to that
5 Q. Witness, what do you mean by using the term "assumptions"?
6 A. Assumptions refer to possibilities that might have -- things that
7 might have happened, one or two of them might have happened, but they are
8 not referring to concrete events.
9 Q. Witness, am I to conclude that the Prosecution or the "MAT" had
10 given you a number of such assumptions; yes or no?
11 A. The Military Analysis Team, in general, meant that we were looking
12 at questions and possibilities in general and we examined them together,
13 jointly, and I tried to help them from -- with my expertise.
14 Q. Very well.
15 But this data, this assumption, was given do you by the
16 Prosecution, were they not?
17 A. No, no, not at all. No. I am referring to something else. I am
18 referring to something that we have dealt together, it is a computation of
19 probabilities, if you like, and everything element of this computation is
20 based on suppositions and of course what we are studying is the first
21 shell, the first fire and the precision of the first fire, so that there
22 is -- I can't see any.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 Now, another two questions, Witness. Who and who with did you
1 A. On behalf of the Military Analysis Team, there was a group and at
2 the same time, we also had a Hungarian group, a Hungarian team comprising
3 a number of specialists and I was a member of that particular group. And
4 we discussed various questions, theoretical questions, related to the
6 Q. Very well.
7 My question was: And where? And where did you work?
8 A. You wanted to know where exactly these questions were asked,
9 geographically speaking?
10 Q. Where did you work? Yes, geographically speaking.
11 A. There were two meetings between the two groups. And this group of
12 question that we were discussing and studying in the year 2000, was
13 working in Budapest.
14 Q. Witness, since there is a group, it seems to be in Budapest, could
15 you perhaps tell us some names of experts who had worked with you?
16 A. Well, that took place in the fall of the year 2000, so I don't
17 really remember any specific name. I was a member of the group, but I
18 couldn't give you any names, specifically.
19 Q. Witness, you were a member of a group of experts and you cannot
20 give me names of people, experts, that you worked with in Budapest,
21 Hungary or you do not wish to do that?
22 A. You understood me correctly, I cannot give you the names; I just
23 can't remember them.
24 Q. Witness, would you be able to find these names in that way,
25 perhaps you can come back with these names.
1 A. I don't think I would be able to give you the names because I
2 didn't know these people before. I only met them once and I don't think I
3 have kept their names.
4 Q. Witness, you worked with a group of experts, you only saw them
5 once, you don't know how to find them again, and you don't know their
6 names; is that what I am to understand from your answer?
7 A. Yes, I understand you correctly and you understood what I said.
8 Q. Witness, these experts, were they men or women?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Kovacs, if you would give it a good effort, do
10 you think someone must have constituted this group, someone has invited
11 you, and I take it other members of the group as well? Would you be able
12 to reconstruct those persons of whom the group consisted?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you please repeat your
14 question, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If you would give it a good effort, whether you could
16 find the names of those who took part in that group, and I suggested to
17 you that someone was must have called the members of the group together
18 and must have invited you, I take it, to participate in that group. So
19 perhaps that person would still know the names of the other members of the
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is quite probable,
22 Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there anything else you would like to --
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, but we are going to
1 let the witness think about it overnight and then we are going to ask more
3 JUDGE ORIE: It depends, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. You left the area of
4 what you could have not have asked the witness at the previous occasion,
5 that whether he worked together with others by preparing his report, was a
6 question that could have perfectly put to the witness. The reason why I
7 intervened is that I wondered whether that would be the last answer of the
8 witness on what he could or could not.
9 But, are there any other issues concerning --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- [Previous translation continues]... Two pages?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. That is
13 the reason why I believe that in order not to make it difficult for
14 anyone, particularly not difficult for the witness, perhaps we could do it
15 tomorrow morning as early possible, that is the first hours of the hearing
17 JUDGE ORIE: The first hours would be quite a lot of time for two
18 pages, but let me just confer with the other members of the Chamber.
19 Mr. Stamp.
20 MR. STAMP: If it is possible that we can complete today, I
21 respectfully ask that we try to do so. I think that there are huge
22 difficulties with this witness. He has pressing personal matters which he
23 had to leave to come here. And also we have only booked the Hungarian
24 interpreters for today and I am not sure if they will be available
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes, that last part -- well, let me confer with
2 my colleagues.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters suggest to the President that the
5 Hungarian interpreters can stay tomorrow and that most people do not want
6 to work after 7.00. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I am aware of that and as I already expressed the
8 argument of the "not being available any more" of the Hungarian
9 interpreter would certainly not be the reason for the decision the Chamber
10 would first like to make. But we'd first ask the interpreters booth we
11 would like the continue for not more and strictly 15 minutes.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, the Hungarian interpreters are
13 able to stay on until tomorrow. Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It is not a matter of the interpreters. It is for
15 other reasons that we would like to conclude. So it is not for the
16 interpreters that we continue, but for other reasons.
17 Would the interpreters --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, of course, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your cooperation.
20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you have 15 minutes exactly, not more, to put
21 all the questions to the witness you would like to.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 Q. Witness, could you please give me now the names, all the names of
24 the people that you remember from that group. Thank you.
25 A. As I mentioned before, sir, I don't remember the names from this
1 group. So I couldn't give them to you now, and I couldn't give them to
2 you 15 minutes hence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember one of the names or two of the names?
4 Please give the names that you would remember, even if it would not be all
5 of the group at this moment.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry, Your Honour, I can't
7 give you a correct answer just now. That happened two years ago.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Very well.
10 Witness, were these people men or women?
11 A. Men.
12 Q. Civilian or military?
13 A. Everybody was wearing civilian clothes, so I can't tell you.
14 Q. Young or old?
15 A. Mixed.
16 Q. Very well.
17 I am going on to another line of questioning. How long did this
18 committee work until? Or this commission?
19 A. I would like to correct your question, if you don't mind. It was
20 not a committee. I don't know the exact definition, but in my opinion, it
21 was an ad hoc group.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But, how long did the group work together?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a few questions. We were
24 discussing a number of questions, not concrete questions, general issues,
25 and it only took a few hours.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Witness, until which date, which day, which year, did this group
3 work? If you don't know it, just say you don't know.
4 A. I don't know the exact date.
5 Q. Very well.
6 Is it true that this group was already created in the year 2000;
7 yes or no?
8 A. It was in the year 2000 that the questions cropped up and these
9 are the questions I am referring to now. That's all I can say --
10 Q. Question is following: Can you please answer with a yes or no if
11 possible, do you know if this group was established in the year 2000; yes
12 or no?
13 A. This discussion took place in the year 2000.
14 Q. Very well.
15 So this group did this group see the draft of the conclusion, of
16 the findings of the report?
17 A. Are you referring to the expert opinion which is in front of me on
18 the table?
19 Q. I am talking about what you called, Witness, your working
20 document. Did they see it or not?
21 A. No, sir. That's what I stated before. It is my own work. I
22 produced it, nobody in the whole world saw it or commented on it from the
23 expert point of view.
24 Q. Very well.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I told you before that you were
1 far away from the last two pages and from what you could not have asked
2 the witness before. Would you please move to your next subject.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I will, Mr. President.
4 Q. Now, Witness, I am just going to come back to one of the pages
5 that we have recently discovered. And you stated the following on page
6 31, end of the second paragraph, more or less, that the error of firing,
7 what I conclude to be the error of firing was about 200 to 400 metres. Is
8 that correct?
9 MR. STAMP: Perhaps the question may be more easily comprehended
10 by the witness if the document is quoted from precisely, the relevant
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Yes, I will quote.
13 I will quote. [In English] "Of the first shot are specified for a point
14 located 200, 400 metres from the target in the opposite direction."
15 JUDGE ORIE: You found the passage, Dr. Kovacs?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour, I have found
17 this passage.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.
20 Q. Is it true, Mr. Expert, that therefore there is an admissible
21 error of about 400 metres; yes or no?
22 A. I am terribly sorry. I cannot really answer this question because
23 the whole text is not referring to what you are asking me about. Because
24 this is not a question of a mistake. The 200 to 400 metres is not a
25 question of mistake.
1 Q. Withdraw the word "mistake." Is there a margin of firing which
2 could be between 200 and 400 metres?
3 A. No, this is not the question. This is not what I am talking about
4 in my text. In this particular sentence what I am saying is the
5 following: That there is a possibility, if you have your own forces that
6 happen to be in that particular area, then they would not start firing.
7 There is a firing range and they would not start firing at the target, but
8 at a certain point, a certain object which might be 200 or 400 metres away
9 from that particular target, where there can be no casualties. That is
10 what I am talking about.
11 Q. Very well.
12 By saying this, you are saying that there is a security margin of
13 about 2 to 400 metres?
14 A. No, no, no. It is not a safety limit. It is a little more than
15 that. It is more than a level of a safety limit.
16 Q. Very well.
17 So what is it, in a nutshell?
18 A. This is a little more than a safety zone, if you like. And this
19 is precisely so as to protect our own forces against undesired damage,
20 undesirable damage, and this is the way you use artillery.
21 Q. Very well.
22 Whatever name we give it, this is a margin in order to protect,
23 with the purpose of protecting one's own forces. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes. It can mean that, in a certain way.
25 Q. Very well.
1 So it could be like a security margin, more or less?
2 A. Yes, it could be, but this is not what it is. There is a
3 difference between the two.
4 Q. Yes, indeed. Very well.
5 Now this quasi-margin of safety or of security, Witness, doesn't
6 it mean that when there is firing, there is also a risk of error which
7 corresponds precisely to the margin or the quasi-margin of security; yes
8 or no?
9 A. There is a possibility of making a mistake, and of course it can
10 take place at any point in time whatsoever and this is precisely why you
11 have this distance.
12 Q. The very last question in this time that is given to me: Is it
13 correct, Mr. Expert, that the deviations are not simply in the axis but
14 they can also deviate from the axis, that is, not only in depth, but also
15 laterally, yes or no?
16 A. Naturally, there could be a lateral deviation as well, but a
17 deviation in depth, in general, is greater than a deviation sideways.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will stop
19 here for the obvious reasons. The Defence is hereby stating the
20 reservation that we may have to recall this witness. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
22 Mr. Stamp, you insisted on the witness to be excused. May I take
23 it that there are no further questions.
24 MR. STAMP: There are just a couple and they will be asked by Mr.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You cannot ask at 7.00 for the witness to be excused
2 and ask the interpreters, who clearly said to us that they prefer not to
3 work after 7.00 and of course they have their responsibilities as well.
4 Let me just do the following. You get one minute that was saved by the
5 Defence to put the most important question you would like to put to the
7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I ask those questions, I can
8 assure you that they only relate to one topic, which is the so-called
9 group and I think the reason will become obvious as to why we need to ask
10 those questions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: One or two questions and it is upon your request that
12 we continued and not on the request of anyone else. Yes, please.
13 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:
14 MR. IERACE:
15 Q. Sir, was all the Lieutenant-Colonel Bela Komka and
16 Lieutenant-Colonel Antal Herdics and some military aides, the individuals
17 present with you at the meeting in late 2000 at the Hague and myself?
18 A. Bela Komka is an artillery officer. He might have been there, in
19 the year 2000, he might have been there. Would you repeat the other name.
20 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel A-N-T-A-L H-E-R-D-I-C-S and some military aides
21 and myself.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Can you repeat once again.
23 MR. IERACE: A-N-T-A-L H-E-R-D-I-C-S, and some military aides,
24 Hungarian acting as translators and myself.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Herdics, yes, he is also an
1 artillery officer. I don't remember exactly whether he was there or not,
2 but I can imagine he might have been there.
3 MR. IERACE:
4 Q. And military aides acting as interpreters and myself?
5 A. Yes, I remember that.
6 Q. All right.
7 A. Yes, I remember that there were interpreters and that is how we
8 were working.
9 Q. Do you remember me being there as well?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Can you repeat that.
11 MR. IERACE:
12 Q. Do you remember me being there as well?
13 A. You mean in 2000?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. I cannot give you a precise answer.
16 Q. All right. Second question, when were you first asked to do a
17 report, in other words to be an expert witness, approximately?
18 A. In 2002, at the beginning of 2002, a few weeks prior to my
19 February text.
20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the absence of the Hungarian
23 interpreter -- I withdraw that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Kovacs, since there are no questions from the
25 bench, this concludes your second testimony in this court. I thank you
1 for coming back to The Hague and wish you a safe journey home. We adjourn
2 until tomorrow at a quarter past 2.00, but not after I have specifically
3 thanked the interpreters for their great flexibility. I know that I am
4 building up a bad reputation. I apologise for that. And we will be in
5 Courtroom I tomorrow.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
7 7.20 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
8 the 25th day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.