Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12691

1 Wednesday 31 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom and those

6 supporting us just outside the courtroom.

7 Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to resume the examination of the

8 witness Arifagic?

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all,

12 we call the case, I believe.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You are perfectly right, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 Madam Registrar, good morning to you as well. May I ask you to

15 call the case.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

17 Stanislav Galic.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Before the case was called, I

19 asked whether the Prosecution was ready to resume the examination of the

20 witness Arifagic and I asked the usher to bring the witness in.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 WITNESS: ZINETA ARIFAGIC [Resumed]

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning --

25 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

Page 12692

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ms. Arifagic, may I still remind you that you are

2 still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave at the beginning of

3 your testimony. Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne, please proceed.

4 Examined by Ms. Mahindaratne: [Continued]

5 Q. Ms. Arifagic, you remember you were examining a document when

6 court adjourned yesterday.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown P3738L again, please.

8 Q. You were examining the medical report of Izet Colakovic.

9 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

10 Q. Do you recognise this document as an official medical report

11 issued by the hospital and do you recognise the official stamp and your

12 signature on this document?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Can you please give the date of admission and the date of injury

15 of the patient.

16 A. 12th of July 1993.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I am sorry, Mr. President, there was no

18 translation of the date.

19 Q. Could you give the date again, please.

20 A. 12th of July 1993.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon, Mr. President. I was on

22 the wrong channel. May the witness be shown Exhibit number P3738N,

23 translation P3738N1.

24 Q. Do you recognise this document as an official medical report

25 issued by the hospital and do you recognise the official stamp of the

Page 12693

1 hospital and your signature on the document?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Could you give the name of the patient, which is recorded on the

4 document?

5 A. Sevda Hasanovic.

6 Q. And could you give the date of admission?

7 A. 4th of February 1994.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit number

9 P3738O.

10 Q. Do you recognise this document as an official medical report

11 issued by the hospital?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recognise your signature and the official stamp of the

14 hospital on the document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you please state the name of the patient and the date of

17 admission.

18 A. Rajko Maksimovic, 4th of February 1994.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit number

20 P3738P, translation, P3738P1.

21 Q. Do you recognise this document as an official report, discharge

22 sheet, issued by the hospital?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recognise your signature and the official stamp of the

25 hospital on the document?

Page 12694

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you please state the name of the patient and the date of

3 admission.

4 A. Sanela Muratovic, 26th of June 1994.

5 Q. Could you read out the first line in the box which says, "case

6 history"?

7 A. "Admitted as an emergency case, wounded by a sniper's bullet."

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit number P3738R.

9 Q. Do you recognise this document as an official death certificate

10 issued by the hospital?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you recognise your signature and the official seal of the

13 hospital on the document?

14 A. My signature is here, but I cannot see the seal.

15 Q. Very well.

16 Can you please state the name of the patient which is recorded on

17 the document?

18 A. Asim Zagorica.

19 Q. And the date of admission?

20 A. 1st of June 1993.

21 Q. In the absence of the official seal, when you cannot see the seal

22 clearly on the document, how could you be certain this is the document --

23 official document, issued by the hospital? Do you recognise the format

24 of the document?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12695

1 Q. And, therefore, can you say that this is an official death

2 certificate issued by the hospital by examining the document?

3 A. Yes, I can.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit number P3738S.

5 Q. Do you recognise this document as an official death certificate

6 issued by the hospital?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recognise your signature and the official stamp of the

9 hospital on the document?

10 A. Yes. My signature is here, but I cannot see the seal of the

11 hospital. I don't think that we had the seal at the time that it had

12 been made, because it is only then that the hospital was officially

13 registered at that time.

14 Q. Can you recognise the format of the document being an official

15 form used by the hospital?

16 A. Yes, I can.

17 Q. Can you please state the name of the deceased and the date of

18 death.

19 A. Atif Bajraktarevic, 1st of June 1993.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit number P3369A.

21 Q. Do you recognise this document as an official discharge sheet

22 issued by the hospital?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recognise the official seal of the hospital on the

25 document?

Page 12696

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Have you signed this document at any stage or seen this before?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recognise your signature on the document?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Can you please state the name of the patient and the date of

7 admission.

8 A. Fatima Salcin, 13th of June 1994.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit number P3747,

10 translation, P3747.1.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We have a problem here which

14 is that if you have the same copies as we do, most of them are just

15 illegible they are just black boxes, and the rest is not so legible. So

16 I don't know what to do. I asked for other copies. We were told that's

17 all that was. I don't think that the Defence can work usefully with the

18 names that we can't even decipher.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It is for certain that those parts we cannot read

20 cannot be used, but let's first see what the Prosecution wants to draw

21 our attention to and let's see whether this is in part of the document

22 which is legible, and let's also see whether there is any explanation for

23 this condition of the document.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. In fact, my colleague,

25 Mr. Stamp, responded to the same issue yesterday with regard to the same

Page 12697

1 document. We can only do as best as we could and even the original

2 document that we have, which we have brought down from the ward, is in

3 the same state. And we cannot clean it up beyond that. So this is the

4 reason for the state it is in. And as far as the document is concerned,

5 the Prosecution merely intends to tender it as a list. We do not intend

6 to go into details of the entries.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but, of course, if you have a list if you say

8 we want to just establish that there exists a list, I hardly can imagine

9 that the Prosecution would not at least wants to prove as well, what is

10 approximately on that list. So lists without being whatever attention to

11 the content is may not be that useful. I mean, it could be a shopping

12 list of someone. It is not just a list, I take it. So would you please

13 pay attention to that while examining the witness, and if there are any

14 remaining questions we will put them.

15 What else we would like, and what the Chamber would certainly

16 like to know, whether the original of which this was copied is just as

17 badly legible as the original.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I have the original right

19 here that was brought down from the ward.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That is the original that comes directly from the

21 ward, so that is the one taken from the ward?

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps at a later stage we would like to see then

24 the original.

25 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 12698

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I have

2 some doubts for the following reasons: The Defence is practically become

3 a specialist in black boxes. We are deciphering them better than anyone

4 else and if we keep each one of these documents, we will see that the dark

5 area at the bottom of the page is always more or less -- has more or less

6 always the same kind of form in the space. It is always the very same

7 dark area on each page, which means that these are not the originals which

8 have dark areas, but it is probably the glass of the photocopier which

9 was possibly clouded or dark. We can see that every time. So, there are

10 clear originals somewhere, certainly, where they come from, and it should

11 be possible, normally speaking, to make copies with a photocopier which

12 is clear and clean. But we can see very well that the problem doesn't

13 come from the originals, but from the copies, and from the means of

14 copying them.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, looking at what you call the

16 original, it seems to be a photocopy of the original which might still

17 remain in Sarajevo.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If I may --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Because I have some difficulties in accepting that

20 this is the original copy that was in Sarajevo. Because the UN stamp,

21 the presiding officer stamp, and the -- that is in blue. So this should

22 be a copy taken from the original which still remains in the Dobrinja

23 hospital or in whatever archive, is that true?

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, when I referred to the word

25 "original" I did not mean the original document. Undoubtedly this is a

Page 12699

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Page 12700

1 photocopy. But this is the most original document we have here in the

2 OTP. And undoubtedly there is a very clear original document somewhere,

3 but it is not in our premises or it is not within our custody.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps you should ask the witness whether the

5 original which is still in Sarajevo would be better legible. Yes.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well Mr. President.

7 Q. Do you recognise the document which was just shown to you, P3747?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. The document which has been shown to you is not a clear copy, it

10 is a quite illegible right at the bottom of the document. Are you aware

11 as to where perhaps the original documents may have been or have you seen

12 the original documents at some stage?

13 A. It is obvious that this is a copy, that this is a poor copy, and

14 the original must exist certainly, considering that Dobrinja hospital was

15 officially closed, all the documents, documentation, have been

16 transferred to the archives of the town and the files of the city, and

17 you can probably find the originals here. But this is certainly the

18 document that belongs to the hospital -- originates from the hospital, I

19 can state it for sure, because most of these people since I worked -- I

20 lived in Dobrinja at the time, I know most people there. And of course,

21 we didn't know at the time that we would be using these documents. We

22 didn't know at the time that we would be here at the Tribunal, but we made

23 them for our own needs.

24 Q. Were you working at the hospital at the time this document was

25 issued?

Page 12701

1 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I arrived a short while ago.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Was it a response to your satisfaction,

3 Mr. President?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, we have to consider, I take it you

5 are going to tender this. Well, the answer is quite clear, but whether

6 that would be sufficient for admitting the document into evidence is a

7 different question, of course.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President. May I proceed?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

11 Q. Can you please state what this document is.

12 A. This document is the list of patients who were brought to the

13 hospital and they were wounded on the 1st of June 1993 at a match in

14 Dobrinja. So this is just a partial list because only part of the

15 patients, because the hospital did not have the capacity to take in all

16 the patients wounded on that day. And this is a very important document

17 indeed, and I would really like you to make an effort and get a hold of

18 the original.

19 Q. When you said "wounded", wounded as a result of what?

20 A. As a result of the shelling.

21 Q. Can you please state the date of admission of the patients, the

22 dates with regard to each patient are the same on the list?

23 A. The 1st of June 1993, yes.

24 Q. Yesterday when you testified with regard to Exhibit number

25 P3738C --

Page 12702

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit P3738C again,

2 please.

3 Q. You examined this document, compared this document with P3738M,

4 and said that the date on P3738C could be a typographical error, is that

5 correct?

6 A. Obviously I can't state it 100 per cent, but I suppose, since I

7 know that Saida Balicevac and other people on the list are related, were

8 related. So it may be a typing error, but I can't tell with any degree of

9 certainty. Obviously, it says the 4th of May 1994, and there was this

10 massacre on the 4th of February 1994. Since the name of the witness

11 corresponds, I believe that was the date. But I can't say 100 per cent.

12 Q. Would you be able to answer with any amount of certainty, if you

13 examine the central Registry or the relevant entry in the protocol with

14 regard to that person, would you be certain that this is a typographical

15 error?

16 A. Yes, if I could find this in the register, a name and the surname,

17 with reference to that date.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that case, there would be no

20 doubt whatsoever.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, at this stage, may I seek

22 permission of the Chamber to show the witness the relevant -- the

23 relevant entries with regard to 4th February 1994 which may assist us to

24 clarify that this is in fact a typographical error. The document has

25 that particular document has already been disclosed to the Defence. It

Page 12703

1 was in fact part of the 92 bis package of Muhamed Musar [phoen] and

2 therefore the Defence has already had the opportunity to examine the

3 document.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown the relevant entries

6 for 4th February 1994 in the protocol. We have photocopies here if that

7 would assist.

8 Q. Do you recognise the document which was just shown to you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is it?

11 A. This is a copy of the patient's register.

12 Q. Part of it or is it the complete?

13 A. Yes, a part of it.

14 Q. The dates of the entries or the period to which these -- the

15 excerpts relate to is what?

16 A. I didn't understand the question.

17 Q. Can you tell what the date of the -- the dates are, at least the

18 period, there are several dates?

19 A. In these papers, it is the 4th of February 1994.

20 Q. Could you examine this document and search for the name which is

21 stated in P3738C, is it indicated in the central Registry?

22 A. Yes it is on page -- on the last page of this set of papers.

23 The number is 761. Said Balicevac, she was born in 1976, the date of

24 birth tallies with the date of birth in the death certificate. So these

25 two dates tally. Their name and surname as well and the date of injury.

Page 12704

1 We have seen -- it must have been a typing error, but the date of birth is

2 the same.

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I see that in the transcript the

4 name has been typed incorrectly. May I just perhaps give it to the --

5 or to the relevant certificate or the document to the --

6 Q. Can you compare that document P3738C and be certain that it

7 relates to one and the same person.

8 A. Yes. You mean these two documents.

9 Q. Yes, the entry with regard to serial number 761 and document

10 P3738C. Do these relate to one and the same person?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the central registry, what is the date of admission?

13 A. In the central register, the day of admission is the 4th of

14 February 1994, and so the name and surname are the same, the date of

15 birth -- just a moment -- the date of birth, the address, and then on the

16 second page, even though I am not a member of the medical staff myself,

17 but I can see the diagnosis. It is the same.

18 Q. Now, out of these documents, which one is made first what is

19 the initial entry which is made?

20 A. The patient's register.

21 Q. Therefore accordingly can you be certain that the date mentioned

22 in P3738C, as 4th May 1994, is a typographical error?

23 A. Yes. It is the 4th of February 1994.

24 Q. Witness, now all these documents that you have examined yesterday

25 and today are official documents issued by the Dobrinja hospital?

Page 12705

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And as such kept under the law of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is all, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

6 Ms. Pilipovic, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the record keeping, I have one hour and 20

9 minutes approximately noted down for the examination-in-chief.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Madam.

13 Madam, can you confirm that on the 11th of November 1995, you

14 made a statement to the investigators from the Court?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. At that time in 1995, where were you employed?

17 A. In 1995, I worked at the Dobrinja hospital, as well.

18 Q. You said yesterday that from May 1993 until June 1996 you worked

19 there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you tell us when the hospital was set up?

22 A. It was officially set up on the 12th of May, between the 10th and

23 the 12th -- maybe the 10th of May, 1993, officially. But unofficially, it

24 started operating a year earlier due to the circumstances.

25 Q. Madam, you have told us now and yesterday during the

Page 12706

1 examination-in-chief you said that you started working in May 1993?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In your statement you said "I held that post since the 10th of

4 May 1992."

5 A. I don't suppose so. I couldn't have said that, but perhaps it

6 was my mistake, because I saw in the statement and I just -- it was an

7 oversight, but I did not say I worked there, because I didn't.

8 Q. So this statement claiming that you were there as of the 10th of

9 May 1992 is incorrect?

10 A. Probably it was an oversight on my part when I was signing the

11 statement.

12 Q. On that day, you handed in certain documents to the Prosecution

13 staff?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us what documents did the Prosecution ask you for?

16 A. Probably the ones I gave them. You will admit it is a bit

17 difficult for me to remember. They probably asked for the patients'

18 register and the death certificates, presumably.

19 Q. Are you telling us that at that stage you had register and these

20 death certificates at the hospital, the ones we were looking at just now

21 and that these were the documents that you handed in?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you were issuing these death certificates and these

24 documents, did you make your own selection or were you asked to hand them

25 in for the exact dates?

Page 12707

1 A. I can't remember.

2 Q. Can you explain to us how you issued or handed in the certificate

3 for Fatima Salcin? Were you asked to provide some sort of proof,

4 documentary evidence, that Fatima Salcin was treated at the hospital or

5 was it your choice?

6 A. To whom? I mean, obviously they did not ask names and surnames,

7 and it was obviously not my choice. It probably just happened to be with

8 all the other documents. I don't see for what reason that particular

9 patient would be special.

10 Q. That is what I am asking you.

11 A. I don't know. I don't understand. Her name was or her

12 certificates were probably in the files by accident. I really don't know.

13 Why would I have chosen her in particular?

14 Q. According to that principle yours handed in the document referring

15 to Sanela Murakovic?

16 A. I don't know, what principle are you talking about?

17 Q. Well, by accident --

18 A. Probably nothing was there by accident --

19 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, you are speaking the same language.

20 Everything has to be translated, so may I ask you to make a short pause

21 after the question so that the interpreters can follow us. Please

22 proceed. Ms. Pilipovic, of course the same is valid for you.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Madam, is it true that the Prosecution investigators asked for

25 you to display documents referring to specific dates in 1992, 1993 and

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Page 12709

1 1994 that is to say, didn't they tell you we need documentation referring

2 to such-and-such a date? And then you provided these documents?

3 A. I simply don't understand. I don't remember whether they

4 referred to specific dates or periods of time. I can't remember. But

5 whatever I was asked to do, whatever I was asked to provide, and if the

6 documents were kept in the archives, they could get them and anyone else

7 as well.

8 Q. You are saying that everything was in the archives of the

9 hospital. Can you tell us where the archives were situated?

10 A. At a premises of the hospital.

11 Q. The register that you say were kept at the hospital, how many did

12 you have?

13 A. At that particular time, apart from the central part, the

14 hospital had some other offices elsewhere, so we had to move as little as

15 possible so we did have units at quadrant C5 Dobrinja 5, and Dobrinja I,

16 so they had their own registers.

17 Q. As to the registers of those offices, were they kept?

18 A. The ones that were being used were there and the ones that were

19 finished were brought back to the central hospital, and the reports were

20 submitted from those outside surgeries to the central hospital for reasons

21 of evidence.

22 Q. Have I understand --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down with the questions as well.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters request me that you slow down as

25 well. Yes. You really have to take breaks. If you look at the screen,

Page 12710

1 as soon as the cursor stops moving, then at least we have the translation

2 ready. So would you please keep an eye on that as well, Ms. Arifagic.

3 Yes.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Madam, could you confirm that the reports from those regional

6 surgeries, as it were, were enclosed to the main register?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us who was in charge of the register?

9 A. You mean, the name and surname? The administrative official who

10 was in charge of the registers, he was at the reception, and whilst

11 medical staff was carrying out their part of the job that administrative

12 official would enter the name of the patient into the register.

13 Q. Would you record the time of admission in the register?

14 A. The date, yes, but I am not sure about the time.

15 Q. You have looked at the death certificate for the dates of the 1st

16 of June, the 12th of July, and the 4th of February. Can you tell us on

17 the basis of what data you opted for these dates and these death

18 certificates?

19 A. I didn't select them, probably, and I know that on those three

20 dates that terrible things had happened, and I think that it is an

21 excellent idea for those dates to be selected. What happened was

22 horrendous and I was there and I witnessed it.

23 Q. I asked you who told you, who gave you these dates?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. Witness, you do not wish to tell me the truth?

Page 12711

1 A. I have told you I don't remember.

2 Q. Today during the examination-in-chief, you looked at these death

3 certificates. Can you tell us where the time of death is ascertained?

4 A. I am not sure I have grasped the question. Probably -- well, the

5 patients would be brought to the hospital and if the death occurs at the

6 hospital, it would be at the hospital. Normally, everybody would be

7 brought to the hospital together and then we would separate them.

8 Q. So you are telling us that in the case of death of patients who

9 died at the hospital, the death would be ascertained at the hospital

10 premises?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who at the hospital would ascertain the death?

13 A. The doctor.

14 Q. When a doctor ascertains the death of a patient at the hospital,

15 what data are entered into the files and where?

16 A. I am really not a doctor. I do not know.

17 Q. Can you tell us, what form is used by such a doctor? Is there a

18 specific form?

19 A. Well, you have had the opportunity of seeing it in the documents.

20 There is a special form, the death certificate form, which is then

21 submitted to the municipality, one copy sent to the family, and one is

22 kept at the hospital.

23 Q. Have I understood you correctly that these forms, these death

24 certificates that you have looked at, are the death certificates that you

25 kept at the hospital at the time of death and which were filled in and

Page 12712

1 signed by the doctor?

2 A. Yes. The forms did exist. We drew up these forms because we had

3 no where to buy them at the time. We had all sorts of forms. And in

4 case of need, the doctor who ascertained the death of the patient would

5 fill them in.

6 Q. When the doctor ascertains a death of a patient, you are telling

7 us that he signs the form and the form is empty prior to filling it out?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When you say that you drew them up yourselves, can you explain to

10 us what technique was used?

11 A. I really don't understand the question. The same way you do

12 everything. You have a table, XL, I don't know whether we had that,

13 whether we were so advanced in 1993. We just put a set of tables into

14 the computer and printed it out, that was that.

15 Q. So as far as I can tell, you did have the forms in the computer

16 at the time?

17 A. Presumably. Part of it, and I believe there was a printing press

18 at Dobrinja. So some of it was from there and we had photocopies as

19 well. We made due as we best could.

20 Q. When you say that the forms are the death certificates filled out

21 by doctors, the doctors who ascertained the time of death and they signed

22 the certificates, when you say that you kept those in the computer, are

23 you also telling us that at that time when the death of a patient was

24 ascertained, you had all that in the computer?

25 A. At that time, it was the administrative official who had the

Page 12713

1 forms. He had a stack of these forms to make them available to doctors

2 as they were needed.

3 Q. I asked you a question about the death certificates. Today or

4 rather yesterday during the examination-in-chief you looked at the list

5 of patients killed. Let me refer to one date in particular, the 4th of

6 February 1994. It is P3738M.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness be

8 shown that document. P3738M.

9 Q. Witness, before you, you have a document about which you told us

10 is the document of Dobrinja hospital.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us when was this document compiled?

13 A. Probably one day after this, after what happened. That means the

14 day after the shelling.

15 Q. So what you are saying is that all of these persons whose names

16 and surnames are here on this list, these are persons who were admitted

17 at the Dobrinja hospital?

18 A. Yes. They were admitted, probably you cannot see it from here,

19 considering the situation that was at the time, the hospital didn't have

20 all the specialists so some cases which could not be treated at Dobrinja

21 hospital they went to the Kosevo Hospital. I don't know whether these

22 cases are those specifically. But I am talking in general.

23 Q. In this document could you, for instance, look up the name of

24 Sabahudin Ljusa listed under number 3.

25 A. Yes.

Page 12714

1 Q. Next to what it says "Dobrinja I" does it say 11.15?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell us on the basis of what and which data did you

4 enter the time? What does this mean?

5 A. I don't know. Honestly, I didn't enter it.

6 Q. So what you are saying is that you don't know?

7 A. I don't know what the time represents because I didn't enter the

8 data into the computer.

9 Q. Do I understand you correctly that this document was compiled the

10 day after the 4th of February 1994, and that this data was all then

11 entered into the computer?

12 A. Probably.

13 Q. Could you tell us which person at the hospital was the one who

14 was working on the computer and entering the data into the computer?

15 A. It was a computer operator. So it wasn't a medical staff. He the

16 person who worked on gathering the data and compiling the report.

17 Q. When you say "worked on gathering the data and compiling the

18 report"?

19 A. What I mean, I am sorry, gathering the data from the area of

20 surgeries, and then he would compile a complete report of the hospital

21 and he was the one who was entering the data.

22 Q. When you say "worked on entering the data," who was the person

23 who was working on the registration book and who was entering the

24 diagnosis?

25 A. The registration book was also done by the person, this lady, who

Page 12715

1 was an administrative assistant. She is not a medical staff. But she

2 was in fact typing out the diagnosis on the orders of the doctors. And

3 she would then enter the diagnosis as told by the doctors.

4 Q. So what you are saying is that diagnosis was entered into the

5 registration book of the hospital was done by a clerk?

6 A. I said the diagnosis was inputted in the registration book by the

7 administrative assistant who worked on the orders of a doctor. So not

8 independently. Practically a doctor would be dictating the diagnosis and

9 the administrative assistant would be typing it.

10 Q. This list for which it says "4th of February 1994" that you see

11 before you was it compared with -- to the registration book of the

12 hospital?

13 A. Probably.

14 Q. When I asked you, you said that the registration book of the

15 hospital would not contain the hour, the time?

16 A. I said that I wasn't sure.

17 Q. We had the opportunity to see one part of the registration book

18 for the 4th of February 1994 and were able to see that there was no time

19 entered. How do you explain that in this document we do have the time

20 entered?

21 A. I cannot explain it. I am not explaining it. I don't know

22 how-- what that time refers to. Perhaps it could be the time that this

23 information, this data, was entered into the computer. I don't know what

24 this time stands for.

25 Q. Could you tell us, on the basis of which documents did the person

Page 12716

1 who was filling in this document, how could that person enter the

2 diagnosis?

3 A. This was done on the basis of official reports which were

4 forwarded by the surgeries, that is, the doctors who work in area

5 surgeries, who would then ascertain if this surgery was nearby, if they

6 would ascertain it; or perhaps it would be done at the hospital on the

7 basis of the registration book, which was at the hospital. That is when

8 the report would be compiled. So the report was compiled on the basis of

9 official documents by the people who were in charge for this so that would

10 be medical staff, doctors.

11 Q. Could you tell us about the person who is entering the data into

12 the registration book for the persons who are admitted into the hospital,

13 what does that person fill in, in the part of the registration book for

14 the person which is admitted in the hospital? What is entered?

15 A. The time of admission, name, surname, date of birth, diagnosis,

16 upon admittance, address.

17 Q. When is that entered?

18 A. I beg your pardon?

19 Q. When is the diagnosis entered?

20 A. Diagnosis, diagnosis is entered following the examination. What

21 I said, the data is entered immediately if this person knows it. If it

22 has an ID or something on the basis of which these data can be entered.

23 The diagnosis is done, was entered following the examination by the

24 doctor, when the doctor ascertains, establishes, what the problem is. So

25 following the examination and upon the order of the doctor, the diagnosis

Page 12717

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2

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13 English transcripts.

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21

22

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24

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Page 12718

1 is entered.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I ask you, the Chamber has now

3 listened for 25 minutes to a lot of details on how these books were

4 established. What is the case of the Defence? Perhaps you could confront

5 the witness with that. Is it a forged book? Is it a book with some

6 imprecisions or are these registers with imprecisions or are these

7 death certificates not perfect or are they all forged? What is the

8 case? Would you please come to your point, because otherwise, I am

9 afraid --

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... of everyone. So

12 would you please come to your point.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14 Q. Witness, when we spoke of the death certificates, you said that

15 the death certificates were signed by the doctor who was the one who

16 ascertained the death of the patient. Could you tell us to whom were

17 these death certificates forwarded?

18 A. The death certificates were submitted, one to the family, one to

19 the municipality that is the municipality where the address or the

20 residence of the person killed was and the third copy went to the files,

21 to the archive.

22 Q. Witness I am going to ask the usher if you could be given death

23 certificates 3738S, 3738R, and 3738D. Your Honour, for each of the death

24 certificates I would like to have them looked at, but I am going to ask

25 one question, but in order to save time, that is why I wanted several

Page 12719

1 death certificates to be shown to the witness 3738C, 3738B.

2 Q. Witness, we will first have a look at the death certificate

3 3738S, is that the first one?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In this certificate it was ascertained that Atif Bajraktarevic

6 died on the 1st of June 1993?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If you can, I would ask you please to turn to the second page of

9 this document. On the first page, is there a seal of the hospital?

10 A. No, there is no seal. I explained at the time the seal had not

11 been made yet.

12 Q. Could you tell us, when was the seal made?

13 A. I don't know exactly. I don't know exactly because the hospital

14 was officially registered at the 10th of May. At that time it was not

15 exactly peace so that we can follow procedures, then following some

16 memoranda and a seal was made, but I don't know exactly when that was.

17 Q. Witness, when I asked you, you said that the death was ascertained

18 by the doctor and that he would then enter the data into the form and he

19 would sign the form?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you please tell me on this certificate, 3738S, where is

22 the signature of the doctor?

23 A. There is none. There is no signature.

24 Q. Witness, this copy of this document, is it a true copy of the

25 original, the original that you have at the hospital?

Page 12720

1 A. Probably.

2 Q. But you signed this on the 13th of February -- 13th of January

3 2002. What did you confirm exactly on this copy, for this document?

4 A. I think that this signature of mine was placed here as a

5 confirmation that I had handed over this document. Certainly, I did not

6 sign the death certificate. Here it says 13th of January 2002, which

7 means that when I handed over the documents to the investigators, that

8 is -- sorry -- this is the 13th of January 2002. That is when I was

9 signing that the copies were true copies of the original. And I

10 certainly, I couldn't sign certifying the death.

11 Q. On the 13th of January 2002, when you placed your signature there

12 by which you certified this was a true copy of the original, on that very

13 moment did you have before you the original of this document?

14 A. Probably. How could I have done it otherwise?

15 Q. Witness, at the time when you signed this document on the 13th of

16 January 2002, did you see before you the original of this document?

17 A. I probably did because I was obviously signing that these were

18 true copies of the original. So I couldn't -- I couldn't just sign like

19 that, a death certificate.

20 Q. When you say that you did not sign the death certificate, who did

21 sign the death certificate then?

22 A. A doctor, the doctor who issued this death certificate.

23 Q. On this death certificate, could you tell us where the signature

24 of the doctor is?

25 A. It is a fact that I cannot see it here but it probably exists

Page 12721

1 somewhere. It has probably been signed somewhere. Perhaps it is in the

2 archive, in the files.

3 Q. When you say there is probably a signature somewhere in the

4 archive --

5 A. I am sorry. I don't know why this one was submitted and signed.

6 Q. Could you please have a look at the document 3738R?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is there your signature on the first page?

9 A. Yes, the very same date 13th of January.

10 Q. Is there a seal of the hospital on the first page?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Have a look at page 2 of the document?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you please tell us where is the signature doctor who issued

15 this death certificate?

16 A. There is no signature on any of these documents, of these four

17 documents. There is no signature of the doctor, I don't know why. My

18 signature is here only in order to certify that I was the one who handed

19 over these documents. These were the documents that I handed over to the

20 investigator. So this is not my signature that is on the death

21 certificate. I did not ascertain the death of the patient.

22 Q. When you say of all these four documents --

23 A. Of all these documents that you showed me four or five documents

24 let us not waste time, this is the same case for all of them.

25 Q. 3738R, 3738D, 3738B?

Page 12722

1 A. And B.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

3 like to show the witness certificates 3738K, 3737J, 3738F. Your Honour I

4 notice that in the transcript, it doesn't say 3738F, as I said J and K.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, if we are using these numbers,

6 perhaps we should make better clear to those who transcribe the

7 documents. The first set of documents you showed to the witness was

8 3738S from Simon, B from Benjamin, C from character, D from Danijel, and R

9 from Richard. I am not certainly not using the proper names for spelling

10 out in English. And you are now showing to the witness 3738K from Kelly,

11 F from fox trot and J from -- I have difficulties in the

12 spelling alphabet in English. I have had not enough training to do my job

13 properly. J would be from JNA.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, could you please look at these three documents. These

16 are the documents, death certificates for the 12th of July 1993. On page

17 2 of each of the documents, there is a name of the doctor. Could you

18 please tell us who signed these certificates?

19 A. I cannot see the signature of the doctor on any of these. They

20 have probably been mistakenly copied. They are unsigned. I don't

21 understand how this happened.

22 Q. Witness, when you were signing your own name, when you were

23 signing these documents, did you check whether these documents were true

24 copies of the original, about which you say that exist in the hospital?

25 A. I put my signature when I was handing over the documents. All of

Page 12723

1 the documents were brought by the persons who were in charge for the

2 documents. These are the people who worked in the archive, in the files,

3 for the registration books. I was authorised to represent the hospital

4 in the absence of Dr. Hajir for the third parties.

5 Q. Could you tell us, when you placed the signature on these

6 documents, who is the person who brought these documents to you?

7 A. I don't recall. Probably the person who was working on the

8 registration book.

9 Q. Since you were responsible for the archive, for the files --

10 A. Among others.

11 Q. Was it your responsibility, your duty, since you had to put your

12 signature there, was it your responsibility to check whether these were

13 the true copies of the originals which are contained in the archive?

14 A. I did not think about doubting the authenticity because there was

15 no reason for anything to be forged.

16 Q. Are you confirming to us now that these documents are copies of

17 the original, as we can look at them now, originals do exist in the

18 archive?

19 A. They certainly exist.

20 Q. When you signed these documents, at that time when you signed

21 them, did you notice that there was no signature of the doctor?

22 A. It was probably an oversight on my part.

23 Q. Witness, would you allow for the possibility that the documents

24 that you had a look at now and for which that you said that they were

25 unsigned by the doctor who ascertained the death of these persons whose

Page 12724

1 names and surnames we have that these documents were made at a later date?

2 A. They were certainly not made at a later date, later on. This is

3 just a small section of the documentation which exists in the Dobrinja

4 hospital, unfortunately.

5 Q. Could you tell us where is the original archive located of the

6 Dobrinja hospital?

7 A. All of the documents, all of the files of the documents after the

8 hospital closed is located in the central archive.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am looking at the

10 time. I have for another 10 minutes after the break.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then let me just ask Ms. Mahindaratne, are we

12 moving to the next witness after the break where we might need half an

13 hour preparation?

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, I would prefer, as a matter of fact, because

16 otherwise, we would have a break of half an hour now, and then continue

17 for 10 minutes, and then we would need another.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: I am informed that we need no specific time to

20 prepare for the next witness, as far as the technicians are concerned.

21 So we will have a break now until 11.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 12725

1 Q. Madam, at the Dobrinja hospital, have there been any other cases

2 of death, so to say, which were not a direct consequence of injury of

3 wounds, I mean, regular patients admitted to hospital and dying there?

4 A. Presumably. Because that was the hospital that treated the

5 so-called regular or normal patients.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

7 like the witness to be shown the document 37475 or B rather than five.

8 P3747.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You said 3747 -- yes. I see.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 Q. Witness, can you recognise this document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell us when it was issued?

14 A. The document is not dated. There is no clear date of issue, but

15 obviously it was compiled after the events of the 1st of June 1993.

16 Q. Can you tell us when it was drawn up?

17 A. Presumably the day after.

18 Q. When I presented you with a death certificate for June 1993, you

19 mentioned that there was no seal of the hospital because the hospital did

20 not have a seal. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes. In that case, maybe this document was issued later. I can

22 see that there is a seal on this one. Maybe it was compiled later on,

23 this report, I mean, because there was considerable number of both dead

24 and injured and it took some time to get all the papers sorted out.

25 Q. Madam, can you tell us when this document was drawn up? When you

Page 12726

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13 English transcripts.

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22

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24

25

Page 12727

1 say "later" when later?

2 A. I can't tell you the exact date.

3 Q. Can you tell us who compiled this document?

4 A. This is obviously something which is printed out of a computer.

5 It must have been compiled by the operator who entered the data

6 originally, and who was therefore in charge of the report which he had

7 then went on to draw up.

8 Q. Can you give us the name and the surname of the operator who

9 compiled these reports?

10 A. Yes. It was Mr. Sead Devesovic [phoen] so he would compile these

11 reports on the basis of the existing documents, on the data that he

12 entered into to the computer, and according to the need, he would print

13 out the reports.

14 Q. When you say it was then approved by those in charge, can you

15 tell us who approved these documents?

16 A. Since you can more or less see the seal on this copy, well, I

17 can't really see a signature here. But I believe that he had a part of

18 the responsibility and therefore I believe he could have signed the

19 report himself. But generally speaking, it was not up to him. He did

20 not do it. Either Dr. Hajir -- one of the doctors or occasionally

21 myself. Because there was no reason to doubt the accuracy of the data.

22 Q. Can you tell us where your signature is on this document?

23 A. I have already said that. You can't see anybody's signature.

24 Q. Can you confirm that there is an original in the archives at the

25 hospital?

Page 12728

1 A. I suppose there is. Since this was a significant document for

2 the hospital, there certainly is an original.

3 Q. Are you saying that in case we were to be shown the original,

4 that we would see the signatures of the people who approved the document?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Madam, can we agree that the register of the hospital was

7 compiled by hand, the one that you recognised earlier on?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you confirm that the data from that register which was

10 compiled by hand were at the same time entered into the computer?

11 A. Yes. Maybe not throughout the period, because initially we

12 probably did not have a computer.

13 Q. When you say "initially we did not have a computer," as far as

14 you can tell, for how long did the hospital have a computer and for how

15 long did the operator work on it?

16 A. In 1993, when I arrived, there was a computer and there was a

17 computer operator.

18 Q. For how long did he remain on the job?

19 A. Until the hospital closed down.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

21 further questions.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, is there any need to re-examine

23 the witness?

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I want to just ask three questions,

25 Mr. President, if I may be permitted.

Page 12729

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes please proceed.

2 Re-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne:

3 Q. Witness, you handed over a number of documents, a large number of

4 documents to the investigators of the Tribunal, when you made your

5 statement in 1995?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In addition to the ones shown to you today?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It was not that you selected documents relating to these three

10 dates with regard to which the documents were shown to you but you gave

11 additionally many documents?

12 A. Yes I did.

13 Q. You were shown a couple of -- a few death certificates without the

14 doctor's signature?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you give a possible explanation as to how doctor's signature

17 can be absent from in those documents?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to

19 the question for the simple reason that we should specify "copies" since

20 the witness's statement was that presumably the signatures did exist on

21 the originals of these documents. That is what I understood at least.

22 And as a consequence, if the witness is saying that the signatures were

23 present in the original then asking these questions simply causes

24 confusion. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the question was, Ms. Mahindaratne,

Page 12730

1 that the witness would have an explanation for the absence of the doctor's

2 signatures on the copies of the death certificates that were shown to her?

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, as I understand, the witness

4 did not at any stage say that the signatures would be definitely there in

5 the original documents, in the archives. She could not -- I am merely

6 asking for a plausible explanations as to how the doctor's signature could

7 be absent --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but on the documents as shown to her, that means

9 the documents that came from the archives?

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have an explanation why these documents shown

12 to you do not show a signature of the doctor?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, believe me. Because

14 if you go to 50 or 60 patients all at the same time, those were mere

15 formalities, and it was much more important to attend to the patients and

16 try and save their lives and do what we could. I don't really have an

17 explanation, apart from the fact that we had to act swiftly.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I know I have gone beyond three questions,

19 Mr. President. I am just trying to clarify on this. Just give me --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

22 Q. At any stage could you with certainty say that the original

23 documents of those copies which were shown to you without the doctor's

24 signature would have the doctor's signature there?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 12731

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this question

2 too is a leading question because we have not -- I mean, the witness has

3 not been supplied with the originals here, and this is a question based

4 on an assumption basically, because these originals are not likely to be

5 submitted today or can't be submitted today.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No, but the question is not whether they would be

7 submitted today, but whether you can ask questions about originals that

8 still remain -- let me just have a look at the question once again.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, could you please rephrase the

11 question, because the wording is not clear enough. I mean, the original

12 documents of those copies is -- could be still several documents.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

16 Q. Witness, you authenticated, you signed the copies which were

17 shown to you after comparing them with the original documents?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then the original documents is the documents that

19 are in the archives of the hospital. That is what you call the originals

20 at this moment.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please rephrase again.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE:

24 Q. Witness, you --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any other objection?

Page 12732

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, there is another one.

2 Since I am not at all certain that the specific statement of the witness

3 was that she actually compared each and every one of these copies with the

4 original. She did not say that she compared each single copy to every

5 single original which presumably exists somewhere else.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You should keep that in mind as well while rephrasing

7 your question.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President. Let me ask this

9 question in a different way.

10 Q. Witness, you have authenticated each and every copy which was

11 shown to you in court today with your signature?

12 A. Yes. And I can state with certainty that none of the documents

13 submitted to the Prosecution and submitted to this Court have been

14 falsified or forged. Because there was simply no reason for that. We

15 could have supplied you ten times as many documents of this sort.

16 Q. So you have -- you had no doubt whatsoever of its authenticity

17 when you signed the document?

18 A. None, no.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is all, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to you.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. I would like the

23 document 3738R to be shown to the witness and put on the ELMO, please.

24 Would you please point out to your signature there. No. You

25 have to use the --

Page 12733

1 A. Sorry.

2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. Now, I would like you to have a

3 look on document 3738K.

4 Could you point out to your signature on that document?

5 A. [Indicates]

6 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: That signature was made -- do you have the

7 date of your signature there?

8 A. I believe that the signature was placed at the time when the

9 documents were handed in because when I was handing those documents over

10 to the Prosecution, I put my signature on every one. Obviously, I could

11 not have certified the document myself. I am not the person who

12 ascertained death and put my signature there. I hope that that much is

13 clear.

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: So the signature on document 3738R was made

15 at a later date probably?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No further questions. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has a question for you.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 [Interpretation] I would like you to explain to me the procedure

21 which refers to the issuing of the death certificates? If my

22 understanding is correct, you said that each certificate entails one

23 original and two copies. One of which is sent to the municipal

24 authorities and another one is kept on file. Normally, the doctor's

25 signature is placed on both the copies and the originals, or the original

Page 12734

1 only?

2 A. Generally speaking, it should be placed on both, the copies and

3 the original.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you.

5 [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question related to this one as well. Do

7 you consider it to be possible that those copies that were sent out from

8 the hospital, either given to the family of the deceased patient or to

9 the municipality, would be signed while the copy remaining in the hospital

10 would not be signed? So the archived copy not signed, and the other

11 copies that left the hospital would be signed? Would that be possible in

12 your view?

13 A. I am not certain but I believe that if it is important, probably

14 these certificates, that is to say, the fact that it had been ascertained

15 that somebody did die, could be obtained from our competent authorities,

16 the family or the archives. Is this of consequence for the Court, I

17 believe it is certainly possible to prove that the persons that these

18 death certificates referred to -- I mean, obviously I can guarantee you,

19 you don't have to believe me, you can't believe me but in each individual

20 case proof can be found that these people actually died. I mean nobody

21 could have been that much sick in the head to issue a death certificate

22 for somebody who was not dead.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that --

24 A. There are more ways of proving --

25 JUDGE ORIE: My question was whether you consider it to be

Page 12735

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Page 12736

1 possible that it was an unsigned copy that remained in the hospital where

2 the copies that would leave the hospital would be signed?

3 A. I am not certain.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I am asking you not for --

5 A. I can't --

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... whether you

7 would consider this to be possible or not.

8 A. Believe me, I do not know.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I have the next question for you: You

10 remember the document with the badly legible parts on the bottom. That

11 is P3747. Could it perhaps be given to the witness again. On this list,

12 do you recognise names of persons that you knew and according to your

13 knowledge were injured or wounded at the 1st of June 1993?

14 A. I don't know them personally.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if not personally, in what way would you

16 know any of them? Take your time to go through the list. It is a long

17 list.

18 A. As I am leafing through this, I have just remembered that one of

19 the best friends of my son actually was killed. He was 19 years old at

20 the end so I am looking for his name. I remember that it was on that

21 occasion.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If you give his family name, we could perhaps even

23 assist you.

24 A. [In English] I know his name. [Interpretation] His name was

25 Fejzo. I can't remember his family name.

Page 12737

1 JUDGE ORIE: If you can't find it, it is no problem. So you do

2 not recognise any person known personally by you who appears on this

3 list?

4 A. This Mitro Malicbegovic was a colleague of my brother who also

5 worked at the hospital.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Where do we find him?

7 A. This is page eight. Line 11.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat the name so that --

9 A. Mitro Malicbegovic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do you have any personal knowledge that he

11 was wounded or killed?

12 A. At that time, he was injured.

13 JUDGE ORIE: He was injured. Yes. Thank you. Then I have a

14 last question for you: When you handed over these documents in 1995,

15 could I please ask you in more detail on how this happened? You were

16 asked to provide documents. Did you ask those who are in charge of the

17 archives to give them to you or were they brought to you without giving

18 any instruction to those to do so? So who asked you to produce them and

19 to whom did you ask to give them to you?

20 A. The hospital on that day was visited by investigators from the

21 The Hague. There was an interpreter with them. And there were two or

22 three of them in any case, and they wanted to see the documents. I don't

23 know for which period, but in any case, what they asked for, what we were

24 able to give them at the time, I had -- I was also requested from the

25 people who were working on the records, and they brought the

Page 12738

1 documentation in order to compare them to the certificates so that the

2 registration book would be compared and copied. Anything that they

3 needed, any certificates.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to do it a bit more in detail. Did the

5 investigators first come to you? Did they come to your office?

6 A. Investigators came to the office of Dr. Hajir. I think that on

7 that day he had some duties, so he was not there. I believe that they

8 were there for two days. I am not quite sure. That was some time ago.

9 And he had authorised me, he said that to the investigators would come,

10 that I should receive them, that I should hand over to them whatever they

11 ask for the documentation. So I should be at their disposal.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So they came to Dr. Hajir, and then he said that they

13 would have to meet with you. Did they then indicate to you what they

14 wanted to see or what they wanted to have? I mean, documents --

15 A. Probably documentation. About -- I don't know -- about the

16 injured, about the killed, probably.

17 JUDGE ORIE: What did you do then? Did you go with them to the

18 archives or did you ask someone in charge of the archives to bring it to

19 you? How did it exactly happen? Did you go to the archive or did you

20 ask the person of the archive to come to you?

21 A. I personally did not take and copy the documents, but I asked the

22 person in charge of the archive to bring the documents, I presume, for a

23 certain period, because obviously they couldn't fetch all of the

24 documentation because it is an enormous amounts of documents. And for

25 these documents to be copied and to be brought.

Page 12739

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you asked personally the responsible person

2 for the archives to get the documents from the archives and to have them

3 copied for you?

4 A. Yes, I believe so. Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: At that very moment, how much time did that take,

6 approximately? You asked for it were they brought that same day, that

7 same morning or afternoon or did it take a couple of days?

8 A. That was in succession.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 A. As they copied the documents, they then brought it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So that was during that same meeting that they

12 brought the or the next day or one week afterwards or?

13 A. It took approximately -- I don't know. I think it may have been

14 two days. I am not quite sure. I think it lasted -- well, it lasted

15 because there were a lot of documents.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And then they brought them to you?

17 A. Yes. That's right. I think that I was in the same office as the

18 investigators, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So --

20 A. They then brought the documents, they entered it into the

21 computers. I don't know what they did. They had their own laptop

22 computers, and that is what they did.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So the documents were brought to you in another

24 meeting with the investigators and then you handed them over and you did

25 not exactly know what they did with it? I mean, how they worked on it

Page 12740

1 or? But it was after two days, approximately, that the documents were

2 produced by the archives --

3 A. Yes, I believe so.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And was it in a meeting with the investigators that

5 you handed them over to them?

6 A. Yes. It was at that time they also took the statement from me,

7 as it were, that I was handing over these documents that I am letting

8 them have a look at the documents, that I was stating and confirming that

9 these were the authentic documents. And they also asked me if there was

10 need for any additional information, additional statements, whether I

11 would be able to confirm this, and I, of course, said that I would be

12 able to, yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So am I right in understanding that the

14 documents came from the archives to you and then that you handed them

15 over to the Prosecutor -- to the investigators and that they were not

16 directly given by the persons of the archive to the investigators, but it

17 was through you?

18 A. Yes. We were in the same office, the investigators and myself,

19 yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That is clear to me. Thank you very much.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may point out, the name of

22 Mitro Malicbegovic has gone down on the record incorrectly. The name the

23 witness gave as somebody whom she knew in the list P3747.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand what you mean.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: In the record the name has not been --

Page 12741

1 JUDGE ORIE: You are talking about Malicbegovic is that correct?

2 As the person you knew and that was injured on that day.

3 A. That was a brother of a friend of mine.

4 JUDGE ORIE: But the name was Malicbegovic.

5 A. The last name, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That is m-a-l-i-c-b-e-g-o-v-i-c. The name -- yes.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour the Defence has one

8 question in relation to Mitro Malicbegovic if the witness could have a

9 look at the document. Bearing in mind she said that it was on the 1st of

10 June 1993.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes could P3747 -- is that still in front of you,

12 yes. Would you look at the page where you find Mr. Malicbegovic --

13 Further cross-examination by Ms. Pilipovic:

14 Q. Did you find it, Witness.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you tell us the date which is next to this witness?

17 A. 28th of July 1992.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I have a question, but it is a question for

20 Ms. Mahindaratne. On the same document, please, go to the second page to

21 the page which has some handwritten words in B/C/S and a date.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could you please indicate where is the

24 translation of that page?

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour translations have been provided --

Page 12742

1 if I may just have a moment.

2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes. Translation is Exhibit 37 -- 3747.1

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, just pointed out the handwritten

4 portion as to why that portion has not been translated, is that correct?

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The page.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I have the translation page, Your Honour, but

7 I do agree that that portion has not been translated.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Which is the page of the translation?

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If I may just have a moment, Your Honour. That

10 portion is translated, Your Honour. I beg Your Honour's pardon. The page

11 is -- I could give the ERN number 03055588.

12 It is out of sequence, I am told, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I don't have it.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last two digits, because

15 I also cannot find it. On the transcript it reads "88."

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: 03055588.

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I don't have it.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, as far as the translation is

19 concerned, I find different numbers on it. On the top of the translation

20 it starts at 0026, but then it is 52, last two digits, and it goes until

21 59, last two digits. And then we have other numbers, stamped numbers,

22 which start with 47 and then go to 60. So no 88.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may have some time, I will

24 be able to provide photocopies. I am told, that in fact in providing the

25 copies to Court and Defence the pages have been mixed up. So as per the

Page 12743

1 copies I have here --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I perhaps first see your page 88 so that we can

3 see whether we have similar documents as you have.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The copies you are working from are certainly not

6 the same as we are working from. The whole format is totally different.

7 So -- yes, well that of course creates quite some confusion. I see that

8 on your document there seems to be a text translated similar to what we

9 could think of, but could you clarify the issue during the next break.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Because I realise that

11 the documents that you have at the moment is what was tendered with the 92

12 bis package.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, I am presented with P3747 and a

14 translation. If you say the order is not correct I could only confirm

15 that because it is not the same order of names and, well to say at least,

16 this takes a lot of time and creates confusion and nothing else at this

17 very moment.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon, Mr. President. May I just

19 point out after the break --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may.

21 Ms. Arifagic, unfortunately, we had to deal with this procedural

22 aspect while you were still waiting. You have answered all the questions

23 of the Bench and of both the parties. I would like to thank you very

24 much for coming to The Hague and to testify in this court. And you are

25 now excused.

Page 12744

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13 English transcripts.

14

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18

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Page 12745

1 May I ask you, Mr. Usher, to escort Ms. Arifagic out of the

2 courtroom.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Given the problems that have arisen, the Chamber

6 prefers to deal with the documents after the break. Is the Prosecution

7 ready to call its next witness?

8 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President, we are.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then we first have to turn into --

10 MR. STAMP: Private session.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- private session. But before doing so,

12 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Here we

14 have a serious problems, because all of these documents, there are many of

15 them, there is a voluminous documentation, and we don't really want to

16 though ourselves onto the next witness and then catch up with the

17 documents later on. I think we should be doing it now. These problems

18 should be dealt with now. I think the Prosecution should deal with the

19 problems now.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The Prosecution asked to clarify the issue of the

21 translation of one of these documents during the break. We allowed them

22 to do so. So it is of no use to deal with the documents at this moment.

23 We will do that after the break.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE ORIE: We will then now turn into private session.

Page 12746

1 [Private session]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

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15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

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24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12747

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13 Pages 12747-12771 redacted private session

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Page 12772

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again.

22 Madam Registrar, I would like to deal now with the documents in

23 respect of the previous witness. The witness, Arifagic, if you would

24 please call the documents and we will then hear what objections there

25 are.

Page 12773

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I suggest now to do it differently upon the

3 suggestion of the Registrar. First, all the documents will be called and

4 explained what it is and whether it has a translation or not and

5 afterwards I will give an opportunity to the parties to object. And may

6 I then ask the parties to clearly indicate what document we are talking

7 about, what exhibit number.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is a point

9 of methodology. One part of the objection is that we might have may be

10 based on matters having to do with the fact that the photocopies are not

11 legible. Shouldn't we do the opposite, provide the best possible copies

12 if we have them, which would cut down on the number of objections. Yes it

13 was my understanding --

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... better

15 translations or better copies, whatever, has to be provided. So I do

16 agree with you that we first should give Ms. Mahindaratne the opportunity

17 to submit whatever she additionally wants to submit to the court.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: First of all, Mr. President, I do beg Your

19 Honours' pardon for my inability to be here at the end of the first break

20 to respond to the issue that comes up. And I do beg Your Honours' pardon

21 for the confusion this has created. There is a really plausible

22 explanation. The documents I -- the Prosecution was working on is not a

23 separate set or not an alien set of documents. In fact, the set of

24 documents that the Prosecution has been working on and which was submitted

25 for Your Honours' examination were submitted with the 92 bis package and

Page 12774

1 contains in fact the Registry stamp, that is -- I am referring to P37471

2 which was tendered with the 92 bis package originally.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes but the 92 bis package, we have a decision on

4 92 bis. So that is not in play any more, I would say.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps the Chamber is more interested in how

7 you would solve the problem than to explain how it could exist. If we

8 have much time available, we could spend hours on trying to explain how

9 this all happened. We are not happy with it. It is confusing, but let's

10 see how we can solve the problem.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I will briefly explain what happened,

12 Mr. President. In tendering the same document in exhibit form, quite

13 erroneously, we have printed out a separate -- there are old translations

14 in regard to the same document in different format. The substance is

15 the same but when different translators worked on the same document,

16 different formats have been used and therefore documents which were

17 tendered by the Exhibit P37471, yesterday was different to what was

18 submitted with the 92 bis package. And the Prosecution has right along

19 been working on the same set which was what was originally submitted to

20 court the 92 bis package and this was the discrepancy.

21 There is no disparity or any difference between the two documents.

22 The substance is the same, but the form is different.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, we established that the lines

24 Judge Nieto-Navia asked for were not in the other translation. So I would

25 say, don't explain that it is all the same, one out of 10 translations

Page 12775

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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Page 12776

1 because it was not the same translation of the original document. So, as

2 I asked you before, please solve the problem, instead of explaining us of

3 giving us an explanation which is at the same time not very satisfactory

4 and at least as far as the identity of the translations are concerned, is

5 not correct.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President. May I be permitted

7 to tender P37471 which is the document we have been using which can be

8 distributed now -- has been distributed

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it has been distributed.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And there, if Your Honours be pleased to

11 examine page three --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have got to

13 37471 and I have got two documents, but they don't carry the same name.

14 Is it 37471A or what? I don't have the same titles here.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed that in the earlier translation, but it

16 might be a matter of order, because we were explained as well, that the

17 following order of the pages was not correct. We are not going to

18 compare a document that is not tendered any more with a document that is

19 now being tendered. We are now talking about 3747.1, as presented last

20 by the -- by the Prosecution. And I take it that the loose-leaf ending

21 in 600 should be in place between the stapled 599 and 601. I will find a

22 machine to unstaple it and staple again.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: 599 --

24 JUDGE ORIE: I would have preferred to have the set all stapled or

25 not stapled at all but not one page loose which should be -- okay, please

Page 12777

1 proceed.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: So the page which was -- which corresponds to

3 page two of the document is in the translation on page three. That is

4 because in translating, because of the language difference, sometimes the

5 names flow on to the next page and therefore you will not find page two

6 of the original corresponding with page two of the translation. So as

7 Your Honour --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that if you take landscape

9 instead of portrait, that you can have less names on the page. We will

10 check of course. I take it now that this is a translation of all the text

11 of 3747, although the page numbering might be a bit different. And I also

12 take it that it replaces the document 3747.1 that was distributed before.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then could we please ask for your assistance, Madam

15 Registrar.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let us draw up

17 a list of documents with all the objections to be made at the end.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3738A, medical documentation; P3738A.1,

19 English translation; P3738B, medical documentation; P3738B.1, English

20 translation; P3738C, medical documentation; P3738C.1, English translation;

21 P3738D, medical documentation; P3738D.1, English translation; P3738E,

22 medical documentation; P3738E.1, English translation; P3738F, medical

23 documentation; P3738F.1, English translation; P3738G, medical

24 documentation; P3738G.1, English translation; P3738H, medical

25 documentation, 3738H.1 English translation; P3738I, medical documentation;

Page 12778

1 P3738I.1, English translation; P3738J, medical documentation; P3738J.1,

2 English translation; P3738K, medical documentation; P3738K.1, English

3 translation; P3738L, medical documentation; P3738L.1 English translation;

4 P3738M, medical documentation; P3738M.1, English translation; P3738N,

5 medical documentation; P3738N.1, English translation; P3738O, medical

6 documentation; P3738O.1, English translation; P3738P, medical

7 documentation; P3738P.1, English translation; P3738R, medical

8 documentation; P3738R.1, English translation; P3738S, medical

9 documentation; P3738S.1, English translation; P3738T, medical

10 documentation; P3738T.1, English translation; P3748 excerpts from logbook;

11 P3369A, discharge sheet; P3369A.1, English translation; P3747, list of

12 patients; P3747.1, English translation.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Unfortunately, we will have no time any more to hear

14 all the comments or objections. Therefore, we will do that tomorrow. I

15 am not saying that we start with it, but at least we will do it tomorrow.

16 And that also gives the Defence and the Chamber an opportunity to compare

17 the original list with the newly provided translation of document P3747.

18 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning 9.00.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

20 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

21 the 1st day of July, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

22

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Page 12779