1 Friday, 11 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.34 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 I am informed, Mr. Ierace, that you would like to address the
10 Chamber in private session. I learned yesterday that in this courtroom,
11 private session and closed session is exactly the same, so we don't have
12 to bother too much about that, but let's turn into private session.
13 [Private session]
12 Pages 13573 to 13579 – redacted – private session.
7 [Open session]
8 Madam Usher, can you please bring in the witness.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Do you hear me in a language you understand?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I will call you Mr. DP51 because we will not use your
13 own name in this court. Protective measures have been granted in respect
14 of you so everyone in this courtroom will address you as Mr. DP51.
15 Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of Procedure and
16 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration. The text of this
17 declaration will be handed out to you now by Madam Usher. May I invite
18 you to make that solemn declaration.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
22 You will first be examined by Defence counsel and then by counsel
23 for the Prosecution.
24 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Your Honour.
1 WITNESS: WITNESS DP51
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, before I start putting questions to you, I
5 would like you to take a look at the document. As the Chamber has already
6 informed you, we will be addressing you as DP51 during these proceedings.
7 Mr. DP51, are the -- is the information on this sheet of paper
8 your accurate personal data?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I start with
11 my questions, I would like us to turn into closed session so that the
12 witness can give personal data regarding the place where he lived and
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until 1982 --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Wait one second. We will first turn into private
17 session, which is the same here as closed session. This is in order to
18 prevent that the answers you are giving to the questions now will be made
19 known to the public. So please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
20 [Private session]
12 Page 13582 – redacted – private session.
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session now. Please proceed.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. Sir, you told us where you worked. You also told us where you
16 lived. I am now focussing on 1992, 1993, and 1994. You told us that you
17 worked up until the war broke out, or rather, that up until the war broke
18 out, you were the deputy director, deputy chairman of the board. Now, can
19 you tell me, according to you, when did the war break out in Sarajevo?
20 A. The way I see it, the real war in Sarajevo broke out on the 6th
21 and 7th of April, but throughout entire February and March there was a lot
22 of tension in town. There were many barricades, roadblocks in the
23 streets. There were a lot of armed people walking about town. They made
24 checkups as they found appropriate. And sometimes the things got quite
25 heated up. At that time, police forces and forces of the JNA conducted
1 joint patrols, and would occasionally move these self-proclaimed organised
2 groups. And then for a few days, the situation would be normal. It was
3 especially difficult after a member of a wedding party was killed in town.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP. You told us when, according to you, the war
5 broke out. Now, can you also tell us whether you went to work every day?
6 A. Yes, I did go to work every day.
7 Q. And when you say that you went to work every day does that mean
8 that you went to work every day up until the 3rd of January of 1993 or
9 1994? I am not sure which year you mentioned when you were arrested.
10 A. I went to work every day up until the January of 1994. My last
11 working day was the 2nd of January of 1994.
12 Q. Mr. DP, in the part of town where you lived, so from the place
13 where you lived and the place where you worked, how did you cover that
14 distance? Did you go by car or did you use any other means of
16 A. I usually went on foot because there was a short distance. It
17 took me normally 18 to 20 minutes at the most.
18 Q. Mr. DP51, you told me in answer to my previous question, that you
19 used to see armed people. Now, can you tell us whether on your way from
20 work to home you normally came across armed people, and were there any
21 armed people in the place where you worked?
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to that question on two
23 bases. Firstly, my learned colleague has not made clear the time frame of
24 her inquiry. Secondly, the witness has not said that on his way from work
25 to home, he normally came across armed people. So I would paraphrase what
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 his evidence is, but it may be still fresh in your mind.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, perhaps you rephrase the question. As
3 far as the time frame is concerned and a few questions before,
4 Ms. Pilipovic indicated that she was talking about 1992, 1993, and 1994.
5 Whether that is too wide, that is a different question, but we cannot say
6 that the time frame has not been clearly established. Please rephrase
7 your question in respect of this.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, just in relation to the time frame, I
9 have no objection to 1993, and 1994, but I do have in relation 1992. In
10 other words, it should be made clear whether we are talking about
11 pre-indictment or after September -- including and after September 1992.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please rephrase.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.
14 Q. Mr. DP51, when you spoke about the armed people, can you tell us
15 when was the first time you saw armed people? Was it in 1992, and if so,
16 then when in 1992?
17 A. In March of 1992.
18 Q. Mr. DP51 you told us that according to you the war broke out on
19 the 6th and 7th of April 1992. During that April of 1992, you went to
20 work every day. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. In April of 1992, on your way from home to work did you see any
23 armed people, and also did you see them in the place where you worked?
24 A. Armed individuals checked my IDs in three locations on my way to
25 the hospital. The first one was on the road near the railway crossing.
1 The second location where they checked my IDs was at the entrance into
2 Kosevo tunnel, through which I used to pass. And the third checkpoint was
3 at the entrance into the clinic, and there it was done by security
5 Q. Therefore, Mr. DP51, you are telling us that in April of 1992
6 armed men secured the hospital or provided security in the hospital?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. IERACE: Firstly, I object to leading. And secondly, there is
11 a subtle difference between the answer of the witness on that point and
12 the way it was put back to him. I would be grateful if my friend did not
13 lead this witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please keep in mind that on
15 issues in dispute, leading questions in chief can be objected. And if you
16 take care that there would be no reason for objections, that would
17 certainly serve the speed of the examination.
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But I think
20 that I put specific questions to the witness without leading him. I based
21 my question on the witness's answer.
22 Q. Mr. DP51, can you tell us who were those armed people?
23 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. I don't seek to be tedious,
24 but the witness has referred to different people, different types of
25 people being armed, checking his identity. My learned colleague should
1 make clear whether she is referring to the security personnel at his
2 workplace, or the people who checked him on his way to work.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there were different categories. So if you are
4 asking the witness who those armed people were, you should refer to one of
5 these categories.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. DP51, can you tell us the people who checked your ID in all
8 three locations, including at the point of entry into hospital, who were
9 those people? Can you describe to us what they looked like?
10 A. If you want me to give you their names, I can't do that. I don't
11 know them.
12 Q. Can you tell us whether those were different people? Were there
13 any differences between these people in these three locations?
14 A. In all checkpoints, there were people in civilian clothes with
15 clearly visible pistols, and they usually had the insignia of the special
17 Q. Mr. DP51, these people who were, according to you, the special
18 police in civilian clothes with pistols were those people the same people
19 who checked your IDs at the entrance into hospital?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. DP51, in the neighbourhood where you lived and on your way to
22 work did you have to pass through some or by some public institutions?
23 A. There was an elementary school, Kosevo, above the tunnel. And
24 right below the clinical hospital, or rather the building where I worked,
25 there were buildings belonging to the Faculty of Architecture and Faculty
1 of Civil Engineering. And right next to the building of the Faculty of
2 Civil Engineering, there was a civil engineering institute.
3 Q. Was there a market in your neighbourhood?
4 A. No. The market was located between the Kosevo hill and these
5 faculty buildings that I just mentioned to you. It was under the
7 Q. Did you go to that market?
8 A. Just twice.
9 Q. Mr. DP51, in addition to these public institutions that you
10 mentioned, and the market, was there a cemetery nearby?
11 A. The cemetery was to the north-east of these faculty buildings that
12 I mentioned. It was called Lav cemetery. And it was fenced or divided by
13 a wire fence.
14 Q. Now that you have described to us this part of the city and your
15 workplace, you told us that you saw armed individuals who checked you,
16 that 1992, so I am referring to the period from April 1992 and throughout
17 1992 and 1993 and 1994. Can you please be specific -- specify whether in
18 the vicinity of these institutions or in those institutions you saw any
19 soldiers, any military?
20 A. At the Faculty of Architecture, as early as May 1992, a school was
21 established, and I believe it was called the Artillery School of the BH
23 Q. Do you know that personally or have you heard about it?
24 A. I saw it personally. I saw it with my own eyes because my
25 daughter read architecture at the time, and with a lady who headed the
1 student service, visited the faculty building to get her documents.
2 Around the building and inside the building I saw several dozen uniformed
3 individuals because they had made me sit on a bench with a guard while
4 this lady looked for the documents.
5 Q. Witness DP51, you say "uniformed individuals" that you saw in that
6 institution. Can you tell us what kind of uniforms did they wear?
7 A. They were by and large camouflage uniforms.
8 Q. Witness DP51, you told us that you saw military men at this
9 faculty, you told us, the Faculty of Architecture. How far is it from the
10 hospital -- sorry -- from the institution where you worked?
11 A. From the window of my office there was less than 30 metres, as the
12 crow flies. There was only an narrow street between us. The street was
13 called Ivan Tomic.
14 Q. When I asked you from April 1992 -- let me not repeat it -- in
15 1993, and 1994, that you used to see armed individuals in that part of the
16 city, can you tell us if -- whether you saw any heavy weaponry in that
17 part of the city? I am referring to the route between your home and your
19 A. At the entrance and the exit of the tunnel, because the tunnel has
20 two ends, saw a tank at each of the exits. And three tanks within the
21 compound of the two above mentioned faculties.
22 Q. Mr. DP51, I am not sure I understood you. You said "two tanks
23 next to the tunnel and three tanks"?
24 A. Within the arch of the Architectural and Civil Engineering
25 Faculty; that is, there is a small park around the faculty buildings.
1 Q. Can you tell us where were those three tanks were --
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --
3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- within the compound of the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
6 MR. IERACE: Yes. Having regard to page 18 of the English
7 transcript from line 22 to line 3, there is confusion as to whether it was
8 one tank or two tanks at the tunnel. And having regard to the way the
9 question was framed, we are none the wiser as to when it was between April
10 1992 and sometime in 1994 that these observations were made. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I cannot really follow you on one or two tanks in the
12 tunnel, Mr. Ierace. When I read the transcript --
13 MR. IERACE: At line 22 --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. IERACE: I stand corrected. It is a tank at each of the
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is what I read.
18 MR. IERACE: Perhaps we could have clarified as to when these
19 observations were made. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although that --
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is to be my next
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. DP51, can you tell us when did you first spot those tanks?
1 When did you see them personally?
2 A. It was in the summer of 1992. I can't really say whether it was
3 June or July.
4 Q. Can you tell us when you saw them in June or maybe July 1992, can
5 you tell us if you saw them throughout 1992, 1993 and 1994, or did you see
6 them at certain intervals? Can you tell us that?
7 A. I used to see them in 1992 and in 1993. In 1994 I didn't because
8 I was in prison.
9 Q. Mr. Witness DP51, I have to tell you that the Court heard a
10 witness for the Prosecution on the 19th of July, 2002. And when he was
11 asked by the Defence -- I think it was page 11960, lines 22 and 23 -- when
12 the Defence asked him what kind of weaponry did they have, whether they
13 had any artillery outside the city, the witness answered - and he was the
14 commander of the 1st Corps - that they had one tank working, one which was
15 out of order, and a third one which was never used. And you tell us today
16 that you saw three tanks in the -- around the Architecture and Civil
17 Engineering Faculty.
18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that is not a proper question. That
19 is to invite this witness to comment on this testimony. But what should
20 have been done, is it should have been put to the commander of the 1st
21 Corps that there was a tank at each entrance to the tunnel, and that there
22 were three tanks in the compounds of these buildings in May of 1992 and in
23 various times in 1993. Perhaps the Defence can take us to the page
24 reference where if she complied with the Rules of the Tribunal and put
25 that to that relevant witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I do not know what question you would
2 like to put to the witness. You gave him information of what another
3 witness testified in this Chamber, and then your last words were: "And
4 you tell us today that you saw three things," et cetera. So what you are
5 doing is you are presenting this witness with the testimony of another
6 witness and then compare it already by yourself with the testimony this
7 witness gave. What question would you have in mind? I take it that this
8 witness has given solemn declaration. I take it that you accept his
9 testimony to be the true one, unless you have reasons to doubt --
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What question would follow?
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question and the
13 need to tell him that we heard testimonies which did not provide answers
14 such as the ones that we heard from the witness today. And I merely
15 wanted to check whether the gentleman who testified on the 19th of July
16 told the truth.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is it this witness who could tell us whether he told
18 the truth if there are two contradicting testimonies? There are a few
19 explanations. One of them is is that there are mistakes, that someone's
20 recollection is correct or not, or that one witness is lying and the other
21 is not lying. But it is not up to this witness to tell us what would be
22 the truthful testimony. We hear this witness just as we heard the other
23 witness and their testimonies are not the same. I think that -- and you
24 never put that -- I have to admit to the Prosecution -- you never put that
25 to the witness of the Prosecution, which would have been proper to do, if
1 you think that that testimony was not correct.
2 So this Chamber will not allow you to ask the witness to give a
3 final verdict on whether his testimony is better or worse than the
4 testimony of another witness in this court.
5 Please proceed.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. I
7 merely wish to tell the Chamber that the information about these tanks
8 received from the witness during -- we received during the interview about
9 testimony, and that is when the witness recalled this detail which he told
10 us today. So on the 19th of July, the Defence was unable to put this fact
11 before the witness who testified then, because we were not aware of that
12 fact. But I shall continue my examination in the direction which you
13 steered me to.
14 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interest of minimising
15 interruptions, I won't make a comment which needs to be made in relation
16 to what my friend has just said. There is no reason I am aware of as to
17 why this couldn't have been included at least in the outline of the
18 witness's testimony, but at some appropriate point in the next few days, I
19 seek the opportunity to make some submissions in relation to this general
20 issue. It Is not the first time it has arisen. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, if this which would be clearly
22 contradicting and, therefore, important evidence, I take it, for the
23 Defence case, it should have been in the summary. And what might not have
24 been known to you on the 19th of July could have been known to you a
25 couple of days ago.
1 Please proceed.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. DP51, we talked about how you -- you described to us part of
4 the route you took to go to work. You told us that you were dismissed
5 from the position of deputy director. You tell us why?
6 A. Well, in April all Serbs were dismissed from executive posts, and
7 about a month later the majority of Croats were dismissed too.
8 Q. Witness DP51, can you tell us from that -- in that April 1992 and
9 in 1993, did you have the freedom of movement in the city? First, did you
10 move around the city?
11 A. I moved very little, if I do not -- apart from going to work and
12 back from work. And I regularly moved in the company of my Muslim
13 friends. Because as early as June 1992, Mr. Teskeredzic, a legal man and
14 a friend of mine, having met me near the cathedral in the old part of the
15 city where I went to send radio amateurs [As interpreted] to call my
16 children, he saw me off, came near my house which is about 3 kilometres
17 away, and he asked me then not to go out by myself. At that time, the
18 late Professor Najdanovic had already been killed. He was a friend of
19 mine. Engineer Starovic had already been killed, a well-known bridge
20 builder, another acquaintance of mine. And Dr. Surbat, cardiologist, had
21 been killed at the time, yet another man that I was acquainted with.
22 Q. Mr. DP51, as said, you told us that there were military in your
23 part of the city and that there was heavy weaponry. If I showed you now a
24 map of the city of Sarajevo, would you be able to point to us the
25 locations at which you saw those tanks, and the location of the Kosevo
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if the map is clear, I will
4 try to do it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: May I just -- when you are waiting for the map -- ask
6 you one additional question. You described how a number of friends of
7 yours had been killed. Could you give us a bit more information on how
8 they were killed
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do know, unfortunately.
10 Professor Najdanovic was taken out of his home and about 80 metres
11 away from the flat he lived in, he was found dead in the bushes. He had
12 several knife wounds and a bullet wound through his mouth. I saw him
14 Engineer Starovic was taken out of his home in the evening, one
15 evening, and was taken for an interview. The next morning the police came
16 after his wife and asked her to identify his dead body.
17 Dr. Surbat was killed whilst on the terrace of his apartment.
18 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one additional question in respect of
19 this last friend of yours being killed. Being killed on the terrace of
20 his apartment, was this by someone who was also on the terrace or from a
21 distance or do you know anything about that?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His brother (redacted)
23 (redacted) told me about his death. And he
24 told me they had been killed by a firearm whilst on his terrace.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but from a distance or from someone who was
1 close by?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is always from a distance.
3 Because when if a rifle is two metres away, is already a distance, and it
4 is impossible to prove whether it is 100 metres or 500 metres.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
6 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. DP, you will see to your right part of the map of the city of
9 Sarajevo. Could you point at the locations where you saw -- you said you
10 saw troops and tanks, and where you lived.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you are distributing maps all under
12 the number D1758, but they are not the same maps. Could you -- I have got
13 the western part where my colleague has the --
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. I made a mistake.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. DP51, can you use a black marker, because the Defence uses
18 black markers when questions are asked of witnesses for the Defence. Can
19 you identify the area where you lived
20 THE INTERPRETER: The witness will have to speak into the
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Could you make a circle there, please. Your honour, perhaps it
24 would be best if you went into a closed session.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we should turn into private session if the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 witness marks the place where he lives and we shall -- let he just check
2 on --
3 [Private session]
12 Pages 13600 to 13606 – redacted – private session.
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session now. Please proceed.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. DP51, you pointed out to us locations where you saw three
4 tanks. Can you tell us this: From the building where your office was,
5 were you able to see those three tanks?
6 A. I told you that it was some 30 metres from the window of my
7 office. I saw the tanks clearly. They changed their positions and they
8 were camouflaged.
9 Q. I think that you told us that you first saw them in June or July,
10 and therefore, can you tell us from that time up until the January of 1994
11 when you stopped working, did you ever see these tanks firing?
12 A. I saw the tanks firing by the tunnel and also I saw the tanks who
13 were -- which were by the Civil Engineering Faculty firing as well. They
14 were firing -- those tanks were firing towards Poljine and they used to
15 say that there were Serb positions there.
16 MR. IERACE: Again --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.
18 MR. IERACE: Again, Mr. President, dates. The period covers
19 pre-indictment so far.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us more specifically on the
21 times when you saw these tanks firing? Perhaps first those at the tunnel.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw those tanks in June of 1992.
23 I used to pass by those tanks every day on my way to work.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But the specific question was about firing. Was that
25 in June 1992 as well, or at any other moment?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't give you the exact date, but
2 it was definitely in the summer of 1992, June or July.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So you are talking about tanks. Do I understand your
4 testimony well, if you tell us that you saw the tanks at the tunnel firing
5 once or at several occasions?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw it on several occasions. One
7 end of the tunnel faces the neighbourhood where I used to live and I used
8 to pass by there every day.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you were talking about a specific period.
10 Were all these moments where you saw these tanks firing in that period or
11 also in other periods?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was from the summer of 1992, June
13 and July, and up until the time I went to work, which was in January of
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now the other tanks? So the tanks not at
16 the exits of the tunnel.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I pointed out to you the area where
18 the Faculty Of Civil Engineering is located. There were three tanks in
19 that area. They were camouflaged, and they used to change their
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question was: When did you see them firing?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Summer of 1992. I can't give you
23 the exact date. I don't know it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. DP51, you told us that you saw these three tanks firing in the
2 summer of 1992. Can you tell us whether you saw these tanks firing and if
3 so when later on? There are several questions in this one question.
4 MR. IERACE: Yes --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.
6 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. That is an inappropriate
7 question in examination-in-chief given that the answer -- the witness has
8 just given clear evidence to precise questions on the same issue.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that when you
11 asked this witness, he gave you an answer regarding the two tanks by the
12 tunnel. And he also referred to 1992, 1993 and 1994. All I wanted to do
13 was clarify the position regarding the three tanks by the Civil
14 Engineering Faculty and I wanted him to give us a more precise answer
15 about these tanks firing. I wanted to ask him whether he saw these tanks
16 firing in 1993 as well.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. Please. You just answered on a question
18 I did put to you, when you saw the tanks, the other three tanks not at the
19 exits of the tunnel, when you saw them firing and you said in the summer
20 of 1992. Is there anything to add to that answer?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to tell you something that is
22 quite difficult. Every time these tanks fired, and usually it took place
23 every fortnight, 10 to 15 days, sometimes more often, sometimes less
24 often. So every time they fired, we used to move the patients from the
25 part of the building that faced the Civil Engineering Faculty. We knew
1 that after three or five or seven rounds were fired from these tanks,
2 usually there would be a -- usually a response would ensue in that area.
3 The building is only some 30 metres away from the Civil Engineering
4 Institute. And three rounds landed on the wall of the clinic facing the
5 Civil Engineering Institute. Luckily, there were no casualties.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If I may interrupt you. I asked you whether
7 there was anything to add. Now you give a description of the measures you
8 would have to take, and I didn't hear you say that your answer in respect
9 of the summer of 1992 was not the correct answer. Do I understand it
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said was true, it was
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you saw them firing in the summer of 1992?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. That's correct.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed with your next subject.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. DP51, just this question, please: When was the building in
18 which you worked damaged? Can you tell us when did that take place?
19 A. The first damage was in July of 1992. The second occasion was in
20 September of that year. I know that there were a lot of rains at the time
21 and --
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I would be grateful if I could make a
23 submission in the absence of the witness. I think it is unavoidable.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you, Madam Usher, to escort the
25 witness just for one minute out of the courtroom. Mr. DP51, there is an
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13 English transcripts.
1 issue we have to discuss in your absence.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, we are in open session, it is no
4 problem. It is just the presence of the witness, I take it, that you
5 wanted to avoid.
6 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I will start off in open
7 session. I would be grateful, for the purposes of this submission, if the
8 Defence could indicate whether they have an expectation that this witness
9 will say, if pushed, that the three tanks near the hospital fired in the
10 indictment period. And perhaps that should be done in closed session,
11 that should be answered in closed session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to -- yes. Ms. Pilipovic, could you
13 please answer to that question. Do you -- did you intend to ask questions
14 in order to hear from the witness an answer that these three tanks fired
15 also after September 1992, in or after September 1992?
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question stemmed
17 from your question and the witness's answer. I wanted to ask him whether
18 he knew that those tanks fired in 1993 as well.
19 I don't understand the question of my learned friend "when the
20 witness is pushed." This is what he said. I don't quite follow this.
21 JUDGE ORIE: If I look at the translation now, I see that you just
22 told us that you wanted to ask him whether he knew that those tanks fired
23 in 1993 as well. This is certainly leading very much, after the witness
24 has testified that he saw these three tanks firing in 1992. Because if --
25 I don't know whether you are -- what your interpretation of what a leading
1 question is. I am there have been objections again and again on your
2 question being leading. What do you understand a question to be leading?
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if I can assist. There is a more
4 fundamental problem.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I would first like to here from
6 Ms. Pilipovic.
7 MR. IERACE: Certainly.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] -- if the Chamber and my learned
11 friends believe that it is leading, that the fact that I mentioned 1993 is
12 leading, that by uttering the words "1993," I led the witness, I was
13 trying to insinuate something.
14 JUDGE ORIE: My question: Could you explain to us what you
15 understand to be a leading question? Because we might for month and month
16 argue about leading questions and I first want to know whether the parties
17 both have the same understanding of what a leading question is.
18 Otherwise, what is a leading question, in your view?
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in Defence's view, a
20 leading question is a question which suggests the answer to the witness,
21 an answer which may not be true.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is one category of leading questions. The
23 other category is a question in which the existence of a disputed fact is
24 assumed. And if, for example, you asked the witness whether he knew that
25 these tanks had been firing in 1993 as well, then the assumption that the
1 tanks fired in 1993 is included in that question. You are just asking
2 whether he knew it or not, and that, of course, is very much a leading
3 question. Perhaps it is good -- may I take it, Mr. Ierace, that you agree
4 on the definition of a leading question, is a question that either
5 suggests the desired answer or assumes the existence of a disputed fact.
6 In your answer, Ms. Pilipovic, you dealt only with one category of
7 leading questions. Then I would like to give an opportunity to Mr. Ierace
8 to submit, as he told us, a more fundamental -- yes, please.
9 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. And again for the purposes
10 of this submission, I would be grateful if Ms. Pilipovic would tell us
11 whether she expected this witness, on the basis of conferences by the
12 Defence with him, to state that those three tanks fired during the
13 indictment period.
14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not expect him
15 to say all that he said today, bearing in mind the direction of the
16 questions I asked him during the examination. And I did not expect the
17 witness to answer those questions. He answered today, and it was because
18 of these answers that I asked him that question.
19 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it, Mr. Ierace, that you want to raise the
20 issue that if certain facts that might be of importance to the Defence
21 case, that they should have been included in the summary. Is that the
22 issue you wanted to raise?
23 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I must say that the questions
24 asked by my learned friend certainly to me suggested that she had that
25 expectation, but I accept what she says. In any event, it seems clear, I
1 think, that the Defence had the expectation that this witness would come
2 here and give evidence that there were three tanks stationed during the
3 indictment period 30 metres from the hospital throughout 1992, 1993 and
4 into the first months of 1994. That gives rise to a number of issues.
5 Firstly, what notice was given to the Prosecution? If one looks
6 at the 65 ter summary in relation to this witness, short as it is, there
7 is no mention of tanks at all. If one looks at the expanded summary of
8 facts, I emphasise this word, to which this witness will testify. We say
9 this: He will mention firing of tanks from the tunnel. No indication of
10 times, whether pre-indictment or during indictment the period, and there
11 is no mention of tanks anywhere near the hospital. If I correct myself,
12 he will speak about living and working conditions in Sarajevo, about
13 firing of tanks from wider surrounding of the hospital, and the evidence
14 is 30 metres. My second concern is that there were a number of witnesses
15 called by the Prosecution to which it should have been specific to him, it
16 should have been specifically put, that in these facilities, the Faculty
17 of Architecture, and the two other facilities in the same complex, there
18 were three or tanks during this period of time, so that the Prosecution,
19 through these witnesses, had the opportunity to respond to that, to agree
20 or disagree, and if they disagreed, to offer an explanation, if there was
22 Mr. President, the Defence is required to do that as they have
23 been told on a number of occasions by the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,
24 in particular, Rule 90(H)(i). The Defence was invited by you some six
25 months ago, as I recollect it, if they disagreed with that, to put in a
1 motion, to file a motion explaining why, and it was made clear to him that
2 in the interim that Rule applied, as of course it must being a Rule of the
3 Tribunal. This is not the first occasion that significant matters have
4 been raised through witnesses often with no warning whatsoever to the
5 Prosecution, matters which were not put to Prosecution witnesses.
6 At one point I anticipated to you, Mr. President, in the early
7 stages of the Prosecution case, that if this happened it would inevitably
8 create a problem, which would be very difficult for the Trial Chamber to
9 resolve. How is this to be resolved? Does it mean that the Prosecution
10 is to recall a large number of witnesses in rebuttal so that they have the
11 opportunity to respond to these accusations. The fundamental issue at
12 stake here is fairness to the Prosecution, fairness to one of the party's.
13 Alternatively, if the Prosecution is not to, at great expense and
14 prolonging of the trial, recall a large number of witnesses, are there to
15 be inferences drawn against the Defence? These are all difficult
16 solutions which the Defence has been repeatedly time and time again warned
17 about through the Prosecution case. Where in the opening by the defence
18 did they mention this?
19 Mr. President, if it is of any assistance, we could do an analysis
20 of the first three or five or six witnesses that the Defence calls to
21 isolate, identify these issues and make the point in writing. But we now
22 have the problem, what is to be done? An alternative solution, although
23 drastic, is that the Defence be stopped from leading any evidence on
24 significant matters, relevant matters, which they have chosen to not put
25 to Prosecution witnesses. I don't, in saying that, have in mind issues
1 which one could not expect the accused to have anticipated, the
2 Prosecution witnesses would say, or issues or facts which he could not
3 have been reasonably expected to answer from his own knowledge or from
4 reasonable inquiries. Thank you, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you will understand that the Chamber at
6 this moment will not in three minutes solve the problem. But it cannot be
7 denied that there are certain problems.
8 Could I just ask you just, Ms. Pilipovic, this witness, when did
9 you interview him for the first time?
10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what Mr. DP51 who was
11 found by a Defence investigator last year -- I talked with him in November
12 2001. My investigator communicated with Mr. DP51 on a number of
13 occasions, but I need to point out that I spent with the witness a lot of
14 time this week because of us getting ready for the examination-in-chief.
15 Many facts --
16 JUDGE ORIE: When did he, for the first time, mention these three
17 other tanks? So not the tanks in the tunnel, but the tanks in the grounds
18 of the --
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. DP51, I think it
20 was not the first time, whether it was on Monday or Tuesday when I worked
21 with Mr. DP51 and when I showed him the map of the city of Sarajevo, and
22 when we talked about where he lived, where his home was, how he went to
23 work it was then that Mr. DP51 said, "yes, I know. This was here and that
24 was there."
25 So a more precise and a lengthy conversation with practically --
1 was practically a daily occurrence this week, not less than two hours
2 every day, perhaps even longer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So your answer was, it was this week? Yes.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, by a letter dated the 3rd of October,
5 the Defence informed us in its expanded account of the summary of facts
6 for this witness that -- and I now quote -- "He will also speak about
7 actions of Muslims from maternity ward which was used for military
9 Given the date of the letter, I assume this predates this latest
10 conference. One wonders why Dr. Gavrankapetanovic, who was a doctor at
11 the hospital, never had suggested to him that there were armed troops in
12 the hospital, as we have heard from, I think, the first witness the
13 Defence called, why he was not asked about the use of the maternity ward
14 by troops, and whatever Mrs. Pilipovic was told by this witness for the,
15 first time in the last week about tanks. It would be interesting to know,
16 when she first was instructed that there were tanks operating from these
17 buildings. The first witness told us there was an artillery unit at a
18 particular address. That wasn't put to any of the relevant witnesses.
19 This is not an isolated example. Already, on our third witness,
20 there have been numerous examples. Thank you.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 MR. IERACE: To assist, Mr. President, I don't seek to take it any
23 further at the moment. I will put something in writing with the
24 appropriate analysis of the evidence. I raise it because this is
25 obviously critical --
1 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you. I am just conferring with my
2 colleague at this moment.
3 MR. IERACE: I am sorry.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, when did the witness arrive and when
6 did you start your interviews with him?
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I started my
8 interviews with the witness, intensive interviews this week. At the 30th
9 of November 2001, before the beginning of the Defence case, after they
10 came to The Hague sometime in December 2001, and we spent the whole of
11 2002 in The Hague. And intensive interviews the witness I had these last
12 few days.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but when did he arrive for his presence now
14 giving testimony? Was it last Tuesday was it last Monday?
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as my memory
16 serves me, I believe the witness arrived on Saturday -- yes, true. I even
17 talked with the witness. We met on Saturday already. And we had our
18 opening statement on Monday and I was very busy preparing my opening
19 statement. And on Monday after the opening statement it is then that I
20 started intensively interviewing the witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: May I then ask you: You say the witness arrived on
22 Saturday. The opening statement was on the 7th of October. Saturday
23 would then have been the 5th of October. You have just told us that only
24 during this week, the recent interviews you had with him this week, that
25 the matter of the tanks came up. Mr. Ierace now confronts you with the
1 fact that the tanks appear in a letter of the 3rd of October. Could you
2 please respond to that. It is how I understand it.
3 MR. IERACE: The tanks at the tunnel appear in that letter. There
4 is no mention of tanks anywhere near the -- I correct myself. There is no
5 mention of tanks other than at the tunnel. The words also indicate this:
6 "He will speak about shelling from the city, about the location of the
7 army and its staying in certain buildings in clinical centre Kosevo. He
8 will also speak about firing of tanks from wider surrounding of the
10 So it's on the third there was some knowledge of the tanks firing
11 from a wider surrounding but nothing here indicating 30 metres from this
12 witness's office in the hospital.
13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't know how far
14 those tanks were because the story went that he went from his workplace to
15 the tunnel and that he then saw those two tanks. And when I received this
16 information, it was these interviews this week were focused then on
17 gathering some broader information in view of the time that the witness
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I am just trying to understand you. I
20 asked you, when did he, for the first time, mention these three other
21 tanks. So apart from the tanks at the tunnel. And then you said it was
22 last Monday or Tuesday. Well, let me --
23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. It is this week.
24 It is Friday today. So this is the 5th working day. It was since Monday.
25 So it is the current week and I am rolling the film back. Mr. DP51
1 arrived on Saturday, I think it was October the 5th. And I learned about
2 those other two tanks this week.
3 JUDGE ORIE: What other tanks would you then have in mind apart
4 from the two you just mentioned, because there are two categories of tanks
5 involved in the letter. Are you going to ask questions about these other
6 tanks in a wider area -- I haven't got these papers in front of me so I
7 can't quote them literally.
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have it
9 either and that is the problem. I do not have that submission either.
10 Well, perhaps I do have it. But I have summaries in front of me. And I
11 can see that Mr. DP51 will speak about shelling and sniping, that we
12 talked about in general terms. We were not precise then when, from where,
13 at what time. And I had information, since he spoke about the Kosevo
14 tunnel, and I remember that very well, that at that time he spoke about
15 tanks in the Kosevo tunnel. And the Defence's question during the
16 Prosecutions' case, our questions were always aimed at tanks in the Kosevo
17 tunnel. Had the Defence known at that time that there were also tanks
18 which were around the faculties, of course, we would have raised that with
19 other witnesses. But the Defence learned about these three tanks this
20 week for the first time.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It is in my recollection that actually the Defence
22 did pay a lot of attention to the tanks in the tunnels. So the only issue
23 that remains at this moment is that whether it could have expected from
24 the Defence to raise the issue in front of the other witnesses --
25 MR. IERACE: And to be clear on that, Mr. President, it has always
1 been the Prosecution case that there was reliable evidence that at various
2 times there were tanks in the tunnel. Some witnesses said there weren't,
3 but other witnesses who were clearly credible said they were. We've
4 accepted that and worked on that basis.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So it is a procedural issue whether we could have
6 asked from the Defence, whether we could expect from the Defence to raise
7 the issue of the other three tanks.
8 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
9 courtroom again and I will first put a short question to the witness
10 before I give you an opportunity to proceed Ms. Pilipovic.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP51, the tanks at the various locations have
13 created some procedural confusion. Because you talked about two tanks at
14 the exits of the tunnel, and you have talked about three other tanks,
15 camouflaged, quite near to the place where you worked. May I ask you:
16 When did you for the first time, mention the last three tanks? So I am
17 not talking about the tanks in the tunnel, but the camouflage tanks, near
18 to where your offices were. Where did you, for the first time, mention
19 these three tanks in your conversations with Defence counsel and/or the
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the counsel and investigators,
22 I talked some time last year in autumn when I was travelling through
23 Belgrade. It was then that I mentioned these three tanks around the Civil
24 Engineering Faculty.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember when you travelled. You say "last
1 year in autumn." That is 2001. Would that have been September, October,
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] November.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand -- could you perhaps be more
5 precise. You said in November 2001 you mentioned these three camouflage
6 tanks to -- was it to Defence counsel or to the investigators or were they
7 both present?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had the talk with my acquaintance
9 who is a lawyer his name is Slavisa Prodanovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that was, I do understand, in Belgrade? Was
11 that an investigator for the Defence or with whom did you have that
12 conversation? With the person you just mentioned or were there other
13 persons of the Defence team present?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that my wife was there,
15 Mr. Prodanovic was there and I can't really remember whether there was
16 anybody -- anyone else there. I can't really say. I am not quite sure
17 whether there was another person there.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is the person that you just mentioned, Mr.
19 Prodanovic, you were talking to him in the function as an investigator of
20 the Defence or ...
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know what his function was,
22 but I assumed he was part of the Defence team.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Why did you think that he was part of the
24 Defence team? Did he tell you?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He mentioned lawyers who made the
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13 English transcripts.
1 team. And I assumed that he was together with them, especially since
2 during our conversation he also made some notes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Who did take the initiative for this meeting?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At Mr. Prodanovic's invitation.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one brief
7 clarification. Mrs. Prodanovic -- Mr. Prodanovic's wife is the Defence's
8 investigator. So you can ask Mr. DP51 about that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that is -- I was just about to ask because I
10 do not know exactly who was registered as members of the Defence team.
11 Was the wife of Mr. Prodanovic present as well of whom I understand from
12 Ms. Pilipovic that he is an investigator for the Defence?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That wife -- that lady, she is
14 also my wife's pupil, so she came to say hello.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes -- no, but you discussed the three tanks. Was
16 that in her presence?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We talked about different topics and
18 that was one of them.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That was one of them.
20 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. DP51, you told us at which department you worked. Can you
23 tell us something about admission, whether patients were admitted in the
24 building that you worked in and how was that organised?
25 A. Well, our job organisation was such that all the wounded had to go
1 through the traumatological department where I worked. They would be
2 extended first aid there and then forwarded to various surgical
3 departments, depending on the type of injuries they sustained. Some of
4 them, that is the severest cases, stayed there because we had the best
5 operating theatres and the best facilities because that was a modern
7 Q. Witness DP51, can you tell us between September 1992 until August
8 1994 was there water and electricity in the building in which you worked
9 in? How about the water and power supply at the Kosevo Hospital?
10 A. There was water or power from time to time, more or less, at the
11 same time. Because in that part of the city you can't have water unless
12 you have power. We had some water tanks as a reserve. And for the
13 out-patient clinics, for intensive care, for operating theatres, we used a
14 power generator which is built in.
15 Q. Mr. DP51 can you tell us until the 3rd of January 1994, that is
16 whilst you worked and I am referring to a period starting in September
17 1992, were there any colleagues in your centre who were injured by or due
18 to shelling?
19 A. No, not a single doctor was injured in Kosevo. I heard, I did not
20 see, that a nurse was killed. But I saw that in front of the students
21 facility, an engineer got killed. They brought her to me, but she was
22 dead already, unfortunately.
23 Q. Can you tell us when was that?
24 A. It was in the autumn of 1992. I think it was October or maybe
1 Q. Mr. DP51, when you told us that you admitted patients and that
2 they -- you put their names on the record, in the patient's record or
3 patient's log, as a person who did his job and you explained to us what
4 you had been doing, did you have any knowledge whether in the log you also
5 entered the status of a person -- of the person being admitted, and how
6 were they put on record?
7 A. There are some general rules governing this. One enters the name
8 of the patient and his particulars or her particulars, the address, the
9 age and so on and so forth.
10 Q. And in your hospital, were also soldiers and civilians admitted?
11 A. Yes. Everybody was admitted there because that was the only
12 hospital in town.
13 Q. Can you tell us, please, until the 3rd of January 1994 when you
14 ceased working, what was the frequency of patients admitted in? I am not
15 interested only in the wounded persons, but generally in patients, and
16 when was the greatest frequency in admitting patients, during what period
17 of time; do you remember?
18 A. If you are referring to patients whose were not wounded, there
19 were -- there was a much smaller number of them than of the other category
20 of patients. They were admitted into various departments according to
21 their medical needs.
22 Q. And what about the wounded? How were they admitted?
23 A. During the time when I worked, there were days when we had no
24 wounded persons, but there were also days when we had to admit a hundred
25 wounded individuals.
1 Q. Can you tell us, please, can you be more specific as to the time
2 period? When was it that you had the greatest number of wounded?
3 A. The greatest number of wounded was admitted in the summer of 1992.
4 I think that the heaviest day in that sense was either the 7th or the 8th
5 of June of 1992.
6 Q. You said the 7th or 8th of June 1992?
7 A. It was on Monday. I don't know the exact day, but I know it was
9 Q. Can you tell us, please do you know where this large number of
10 wounded persons came from, from what area?
11 A. On that day, at 3.00 or 4.00 a.m., the first wounded came from the
12 area near the airport, which we refer to as Nedzarici. Then the second
13 group came in afterwards at around 6.00 or 7.00 in the morning from the
14 area called Poljine. The third and the largest group came from Trebevic.
15 Q. Mr. DP51, you just told us about groups of wounded persons that
16 were brought to the hospital. Did you know at the time what caused the
17 injuries in those people?
18 A. Most of the wounded were injured by explosive devices, and a
19 smaller number of people were wounded by firearms.
20 Q. Mr. DP51, did you know or rather, were you able to specify whether
21 those people were soldiers or civilians?
22 A. On those days, over 90 per cent of the wounded were soldiers.
23 Some of them had weapons. Some wore civilian clothes and some wore
25 Q. Can you also tell us whether you personally received that data or
1 did somebody else tell you this?
2 A. I concluded this. I personally concluded that, based on the
3 wounded that I admitted in that day. Because on that day, I was in charge
4 of admitting people in.
5 Q. And you told us that you, therefore, were in charge of admitting
6 people in and that over 90 per cent of the wounded were soldiers. Do you
7 also happen to know to which unit these soldiers belonged, to which armed
9 A. If you want me to give you the name of the unit, I can't tell you
10 that, but they were members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 Q. Mr. DP51, you told us about what neighbourhood you lived in. Can
12 you also tell us whether in that part of town you ever attended
13 cemeteries? You told us that there was cemeteries there. Did you ever
14 attend funerals there?
15 A. I attended three funerals in the Lav cemetery. The daughter of my
16 colleague was buried first. She was killed in Vasa Miskin Street. The
17 second person who was buried was Dr. Hadziahmetovic. He was an
18 octogenarian and he died of natural causes. He was the father of two of
19 my colleagues.
20 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge that the cemeteries or the
21 cemetery that you pointed out on the map to us were fired at?
22 A. This cemetery is separated only by a fence from the grounds of the
23 Civil Engineering Faculty. And some of the gravestones were damaged
25 Q. Did you see this personally?
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. Mr. DP51, during the time that you spent in that part of town, can
3 you tell us how did you procure food and water supplies?
4 A. We received food from the humanitarian organisations. It came in
5 modest amounts, but still it came in.
6 Q. When you say that your food came from humanitarian aid, can you
7 tell us how often was that?
8 A. About every 15 to 20 days.
9 Q. Were there certain locations where the aid was distributed?
10 A. Yes. There was specific locations and they were specific
11 humanitarian organisations that distributed aid.
12 Q. Did you personally go to these locations?
13 A. I went to Adra. This is where parcels were sent. There is a
14 warehouse there near the Energoinvest building.
15 Q. Mr. DP51, can you tell us, please, when you went to that site to
16 receive humanitarian aid was there a queue there or did you have to go
17 into some room to receive your share of the aid?
18 A. There would always be a queue, and we would enter the room
19 individually or in groups of two and get the parcels.
20 Q. You told us that aid was distributed every 15 to 20 days. So, can
21 you tell me, please, whether you were ever present in a queue which was
22 fired at?
23 A. I witnessed two instances where queues were fired at. One was on
24 the eve of the Easter of 1993 in Mejtas, that is another warehouse, where
25 I accompanied my wife to. The second occasion when I witnessed this was
1 from the Energoinvest building, which was near Adra.
2 Q. Mr. DP51, can you tell us how close was that? How close was the
3 Energoinvest building to the place where you stood in a line?
4 A. Some 200 to 300 metres.
5 Q. Did you personally, on that occasion, know who fired at you from
6 the Energoinvest building?
7 A. I don't know who fired. Do you mean what person?
8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object to this --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that it is the word "from" that causes
10 you some problems.
11 MR. IERACE: Fundamentally, my objection is that with the witness
12 being invited to give conclusions in an area which is notorious in this
13 trial for drawing conclusions, that is to where fire comes from, what he
14 should be invited to do, in my respectful submission, is tell us what he
15 actually saw and what he actually heard.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is exactly what
17 I asked him about. I asked him whether he personally knew --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is not the same, Ms. Pilipovic. If I ask
19 you whether you know that the train leaves at 9.00, then there may be
20 various sources of knowledge. The proper question would be, while you
21 were at the railway station, did anyone tell you that the train left, et
22 cetera. That is not the same, especially not here where there was no
23 objection made in respect of a part of your question which certainly does
24 not reflect, at least what the testimony was in the translation we
1 Please proceed.
2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. DP51, did somebody tell you who had fired on that occasion?
4 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. It is a leading question,
5 and it invites the witness to do exactly the opposite of what you just
6 instructed Defence counsel to do.
7 JUDGE ORIE: When you observed at that moment that the queue was
8 fired at, were you -- you were present when that happened. What did you
9 actually see or hear?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was some 50 metres away from the
11 line when I met Dr. Stojakovic, my colleague from the dermatology
12 department. As we talked, we heard the noise produced by some seven to
13 eight firings, shots. There were bullets landing near the queue. One
14 woman was lightly injured.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see where the fire came from?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on the sound that we heard, we
17 concluded that it came --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please answer my question. Did you see,
19 first? Perhaps next we come to the sound. But, did you see where the
20 fire came from?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One can never see the person
22 shooting from behind a screen. I didn't see that person.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is "no" to that question. What did
24 you --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is that I did not see
1 personally the person who was shooting.
2 JUDGE ORIE: What exactly did you hear, apart from that these were
3 shots? Could you identify, and in what way, the direction in which the
4 shots came from?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The shots came from the direction of
6 the upper floors of the Energoinvest building. This is at least what we
7 concluded based on the sound. And again, based on the sound, it seemed
8 that those were shots fired from firearms.
9 JUDGE ORIE: What specifically in the sound made you believe that
10 this was the source of fire?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know we heard shots every
12 day, almost every day. So one could develop a good feeling for judging
13 this. A lot of people were even able to distinguish the firearms that the
14 shots came from, however, I wasn't that knowledgeable.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wonder, is this a
17 good time for a break?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This is a good time for a break, but I have
19 perhaps a practical problem. How much time do you think the
20 examination-in-chief will still take?
21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, based on the
22 questions that I want to put to this witness, I believe another 20
24 JUDGE ORIE: Has the Prosecution any idea on how much time they
25 would need to cross-examine the witness?
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we don't anticipate that we will
3 finish tonight.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That creates another problem. Mr. DP51 -- yes,
5 you wanted to -- the parties informed the Chamber that your examination
6 might not be finished by today. I just wanted to ask you about your
7 availability, either beginning of next week or at a later stage so that we
8 could conclude your examination as a witness?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to leave tomorrow. There are
10 a lot of things awaiting me, and I cannot delay them any longer. If you
11 need me to come again, I can come during the second week of January 2003
12 and until that time I have no available time. I work a lot.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I am afraid that is true for many of us in this
14 courtroom. Second week in January, that is a long time. I just wanted to
15 hear from the parties what they expected that would happen, and I would
16 like to be informed by you on your availability. I have got this
17 information now. I think we will first have a break. The Chamber, of
18 course -- yes, Mr. Ierace.
19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I just raise one matter before
20 we break. I did speak to Mrs. Pilipovic during the last break and asked
21 her for the names of the witnesses for next week. I still don't have
22 them. I wonder whether, with the assistance with the court interpreters,
23 she could indicate simply the order of the witnesses for next week when we
24 recommence, so that we have that on the record. And if it is to go over
25 to January, could it be perhaps the third week, given problem the Serbian
1 Christmas and other considerations.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could you please, in the following
3 order of appearance, give us the names of the witnesses that will appear
4 next week. The first one will be?
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 MR. IERACE: Perhaps in the absence of this witness,
7 Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't think we -- we are dealing with some
9 procedural issues, and you have been a bit a victim of them as well. You
10 had to wait sometimes. I will ask the usher to escort you out of the
11 courtroom and I will see you back in approximately 20 minutes. Yes.
12 Don't forget your earphones.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 (Private Session)
11 Page 13636 redacted. Private session.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
13 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We did close in private session, but we are now in open
17 session again. I informed the parties that we will sit in the afternoon
18 next Monday in another courtroom, and that will be, Madam Registrar?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Courtroom I.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Courtroom I.
21 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.
22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. DP51, you told us that you admitted the wounded, both the
24 civilians and the military. Can you tell us, in your view, and in view of
25 the time you spent there, can you tell us what was the ratio between the
1 civilians and the military admitted into the hospital?
2 A. If you want me --
3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. In my submission, the
4 witness -- the question lacks any relevance unless it is put in a
5 particular time frame.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the time is important, Ms. Pilipovic, in this
7 respect. Yes, especially --
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think we are always
9 talking about the relevant period, and that is September 1992 to the 3rd
10 of January 1994. So my question covers the period between September 1992
11 to the 3rd of January 1994. That was the date until which DP51 worked
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't be able to tell you the
14 exact shares of those two groups, but my general impression is that armed
15 individuals accounted for over 70 per cent and that the rest were
17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. DP51, can you tell us the wounded that you admitted, can you
19 tell us in view of your experience whether you were able to establish what
20 kind of wounds they had suffered, what they had been wounded by? You do
21 not have to tell us what you are doing, since we are in open session, but
22 tell us, you, as a man who did that job, could you identify the instrument
23 of wounding?
1 (redacted) wounds caused by firearms and wounds caused by explosive
2 devices. It is impossible to make any closer identification than that.
3 But in the case of firearm wounds, one can say whether the wounds were
4 inflicted by weapons with a small initial velocity such as a pistol or an
5 ordinary rifle; or whether these wounds were inflicted by firearms with a
6 high initial velocity, such as Kalasnikov or M-16 rifles. The latter is
7 an American rifle, a U.S. make.
8 Now, in the case of explosive devices, that is wounds inflicted by
9 them, we were able to identify, and very easily at that, wounds caused by
10 industrially-made weapons and wounds caused by handmade devices. The
11 latter, I mean handmade devices, include metal which can be obtained
12 ordinarily, such as wire, or nails, or perhaps items made of other metals
13 and the like, including bits of concrete.
14 Q. Mr. DP51, you have just told us how, on the basis of your
15 experience, you can tell apart, that is, identify the manner of wounding.
16 You have mentioned that you can recognise, that you can identify wounds
17 caused by industrially-made, that is large-scale produced devices and
18 handmade devices. In practice, in your work, and I am referring to the
19 period of time which is relevant, and which I have informed you about, did
20 you have an opportunity to operate on and admit patients wounded by
21 handmade shells?
22 A. Throughout the war there were individual cases of wounding by
23 explosive -- by handmade explosive devices. In the summer of 1993, and I
24 think it was June, one morning we admitted -- and I was on duty at the
25 time in the reception room -- eight wounded who had all been injured from
1 the waist above, frontally, and also had injuries on their arms. As they
2 waited for the surgical intervention, one of the wounded scolded another
3 wounded saying, "What kind of a job did you do? We could have all got
5 They worked at the technical civil engineering school.
6 Q. Mr. DP51, when in your answer you told us that from a conversation
7 with the wounded whom you were -- whom you were treating, you heard them
8 blaming one another for the wounding and you tell us that they worked in a
9 technical school. Can you tell us how do you know that they worked in a
10 technical school, or in the technical school?
11 A. The wounded themselves and the drivers who brought them said the
12 same thing.
13 Q. Did those wounded tell you what they were doing in the school?
14 A. Not directly, but it was obvious from what they said, as I have
15 told you, that they were engaging in making explosive devices by hand.
16 Q. Mr. DP51, when you give your finding to the patient when the
17 patient is being discharged from the hospital, do you also include in that
18 finding the cause of the wounding?
19 A. As a rule, both in time of peace and in time of war, that the
20 first sentence of the discharge letter includes what the patient himself
21 or herself has said. And in principle, this is not subject to
22 verification. But any surgeon can identify by the nature of the wound the
23 instrument of wounding, and I have just said so.
24 Q. As a person who did the work that you told us you did, could you
25 also tell wounds inflicted by sniping weapons?
1 A. Such wounds cannot be identified as such. They are wounds caused
2 by firearms. They are all completely identical. Because a sniper has its
3 sights, sights that are mounted on rifle to make the shot more accurate,
4 more precise.
5 Q. Mr. DP51, if the Defence shows you a document, which is document
6 P1800 --
7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps we should go
8 into closed session in view of the document.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will turn into private session. And could
10 perhaps the document be placed on the ELMO so that we can -- once we are
11 in private session.
12 [Private session]
12 Pages 13643 to 13648 – redacted – private session.
23 [Open session]
24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. DP, my question was whether you yourself experienced fear?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. Yes, I was partially afraid, especially when people that I
2 mentioned perished. Those were well-known people and to my great
3 misfortune, I was close to them.
4 Q. In view of your profession can you tell us, based on your
5 experience, what amount of fear existed among the population in the part
6 of town where you lived, if any?
7 A. Well, there was a certain amount of fear. I am not an expert in
8 psychiatry, I am a surgeon, after all. However, I was not able to see
9 some unusual behaviour among the population that would not correspond to
10 the situation around us. The -- a person who is afraid has an improper
11 reaction to the situation which one finds himself. This is what we call
12 "panic," and I did not observe panic. The hospitals continued to operate
13 as did schools, although their schedule was somewhat different, but still
14 they continued to operate. People even went to bars and restaurants and
15 got married.
16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no further
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Pilipovic.
19 Mr. Ierace, is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the
21 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
23 MR. IERACE: Prashanthe Mahindaratne will do the
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, please proceed.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you Mr. President.
2 Cross-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne:
14 [Private session]
4 Pages 13653 to the end 13664 – redacted – private session.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
10 7.10 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
11 the 14th day of October, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.